Most Pastors Lead Small Churches. Most People Don’t Attend One.

Most churches in America are under 100 Most churches in America are under 100 people, but most churchgoers attend a people, but most churchgoers attend a people, but most churchgoers attend a church of about 500 people, which means church of about 500 people, which means church of about 500 people, which means the average pastor leads a small church, the average pastor leads a small church, the average pastor leads a small church, the average church goer attends a big the average church goer attends a big the average church goer attends a big one. Both of these things are true, but one. Both of these things are true, but one. Both of these things are true, but the ramifications are massive. So today, the ramifications are massive. So today, the ramifications are massive. So today, we're unpacking this strange reality, we're unpacking this strange reality, we're unpacking this strange reality, the American church, and try to figure the American church, and try to figure the American church, and try to figure out what should large churches, small out what should large churches, small out what should large churches, small churches, and everyone in between do churches, and everyone in between do churches, and everyone in between do about it. Let's dive in. about it. Let's dive in. about it. Let's dive in. >> Well, hey there, and welcome to the >> Well, hey there, and welcome to the >> Well, hey there, and welcome to the ProChurch Tools Show. We're here to help ProChurch Tools Show. We're here to help ProChurch Tools Show. We're here to help you and your church navigate the biggest you and your church navigate the biggest you and your church navigate the biggest communication shift in 500 years. I'm communication shift in 500 years. I'm communication shift in 500 years. I'm Brady Sheer, your host. I'm joined as Brady Sheer, your host. I'm joined as Brady Sheer, your host. I'm joined as always by my co-host. We call him the always by my co-host. We call him the always by my co-host. We call him the pastor of product, Alexander Mills. pastor of product, Alexander Mills. pastor of product, Alexander Mills. >> Hello. Hello. >> Hello. Hello. >> Hello. Hello. >> And today, speaking of big communication >> And today, speaking of big communication >> And today, speaking of big communication shifts in 500 years. Downstream of these shifts in 500 years. Downstream of these shifts in 500 years. Downstream of these massive shifts come big shifts in massive shifts come big shifts in massive shifts come big shifts in everyday ministry. And that's what we're everyday ministry. And that's what we're everyday ministry. And that's what we're talking about today. I want you to talking about today. I want you to talking about today. I want you to imagine, begin by imagining 100 imagine, begin by imagining 100 imagine, begin by imagining 100 churches. churches. churches. 90 of those 100 churches in America 90 of those 100 churches in America 90 of those 100 churches in America average roughly 75 people roughly. That average roughly 75 people roughly. That average roughly 75 people roughly. That equals 7,000 or so attendees. Okay, I equals 7,000 or so attendees. Okay, I equals 7,000 or so attendees. Okay, I think we should pause with that image think we should pause with that image think we should pause with that image for a second. Imagining 100 churches for a second. Imagining 100 churches for a second. Imagining 100 churches because for those of us who work in because for those of us who work in because for those of us who work in church, when we imagine this a one church, when we imagine this a one church, when we imagine this a one fictitious church, it's not often the fictitious church, it's not often the fictitious church, it's not often the church of 75 people. Right. Right.

church of 75 people. Right. Right. church of 75 people. Right. Right. >> So to acknowledge imagining 100 >> So to acknowledge imagining 100 >> So to acknowledge imagining 100 churches, 90 of them look like this. 75 churches, 90 of them look like this. 75 churches, 90 of them look like this. 75 people and that accounts for what' you people and that accounts for what' you people and that accounts for what' you say about 7,000 people. say about 7,000 people. say about 7,000 people. >> Yeah, technically it would be 6,750 >> Yeah, technically it would be 6,750 >> Yeah, technically it would be 6,750 attendees. attendees. attendees. >> Okay. So, what about the remaining 10? >> Okay. So, what about the remaining 10? >> Okay. So, what about the remaining 10? >> Okay. The remaining 10 churches >> Okay. The remaining 10 churches >> Okay. The remaining 10 churches average 675 people, which is 6,750 average 675 people, which is 6,750 average 675 people, which is 6,750 attendees. So what that means is of that attendees. So what that means is of that attendees. So what that means is of that group of 100 churches, I could randomly group of 100 churches, I could randomly group of 100 churches, I could randomly select a pastor and they'd have 90% select a pastor and they'd have 90% select a pastor and they'd have 90% likelihood of leading a small church. likelihood of leading a small church. likelihood of leading a small church. >> But if I randomly selected a churchgoer >> But if I randomly selected a churchgoer >> But if I randomly selected a churchgoer in those 100 churches, in those 100 churches, in those 100 churches, >> they'd have a 50% chance of attending >> they'd have a 50% chance of attending >> they'd have a 50% chance of attending one of those 10 large churches. And all one of those 10 large churches. And all one of those 10 large churches. And all of this data has come in from Lifeway of this data has come in from Lifeway of this data has come in from Lifeway and they published this data in the and they published this data in the and they published this data in the month that we're recording this episode month that we're recording this episode month that we're recording this episode also from the Hartford Institute report also from the Hartford Institute report also from the Hartford Institute report and we'll have these uh citations linked and we'll have these uh citations linked and we'll have these uh citations linked in the show notes for you to explore. in the show notes for you to explore. in the show notes for you to explore. The hypothetical is very close very very The hypothetical is very close very very The hypothetical is very close very very close to the actual shape of American close to the actual shape of American close to the actual shape of American Protestantism where roughly seven in 10 Protestantism where roughly seven in 10 Protestantism where roughly seven in 10 Protestant churches average fewer than Protestant churches average fewer than Protestant churches average fewer than 100 people but contain only about 20% of 100 people but contain only about 20% of 100 people but contain only about 20% of churchgoers. More than half of churchgoers. More than half of churchgoers. More than half of Protestant churchgoers go to churches of Protestant churchgoers go to churches of Protestant churchgoers go to churches of greater than 500 people.

greater than 500 people. greater than 500 people. >> Onethird attend a church of at least a >> Onethird attend a church of at least a >> Onethird attend a church of at least a thousand. thousand. thousand. >> So that's like I'm comfortable calling >> So that's like I'm comfortable calling >> So that's like I'm comfortable calling that a mega church. that a mega church. that a mega church. >> And there aren't many churches of that >> And there aren't many churches of that >> And there aren't many churches of that size, size, size, >> right? >> right? >> right? >> But onethird of all churchgoers attend a >> But onethird of all churchgoers attend a >> But onethird of all churchgoers attend a church of that size. Basically, what church of that size. Basically, what church of that size. Basically, what we're trying to say is that across the we're trying to say is that across the we're trying to say is that across the broader American religious landscape, broader American religious landscape, broader American religious landscape, the median congregation has the median congregation has the median congregation has approximately 70 regular participants, approximately 70 regular participants, approximately 70 regular participants, but the average attendee worships in a but the average attendee worships in a but the average attendee worships in a congregation with much, much more. So, congregation with much, much more. So, congregation with much, much more. So, we have these two different versions of we have these two different versions of we have these two different versions of normal. normal. normal. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> And that's what we want to talk about. >> And that's what we want to talk about. >> And that's what we want to talk about. We want to talk about if that's true We want to talk about if that's true We want to talk about if that's true that most pastors lead a small church, that most pastors lead a small church, that most pastors lead a small church, but most churchgoers go to a big church. but most churchgoers go to a big church. but most churchgoers go to a big church. Yeah, those are two different Yeah, those are two different Yeah, those are two different perspectives on the state of church. perspectives on the state of church. perspectives on the state of church. Honestly, Honestly, Honestly, >> what are the ramifications of that? So, >> what are the ramifications of that? So, >> what are the ramifications of that? So, we've got 11 big ideas that we're going we've got 11 big ideas that we're going we've got 11 big ideas that we're going to talk through together. And the first to talk through together. And the first to talk through together. And the first one is just these these two different one is just these these two different one is just these these two different versions of normal. If you are the versions of normal. If you are the versions of normal. If you are the typical pastor, you lead a small typical pastor, you lead a small typical pastor, you lead a small resource limited organization. If you're resource limited organization. If you're resource limited organization. If you're a typical churchgoer, you're attending a a typical churchgoer, you're attending a a typical churchgoer, you're attending a larger organization with a lot more larger organization with a lot more larger organization with a lot more resources and a lot more potential and resources and a lot more potential and resources and a lot more potential and capacity to be focused on more specialty capacity to be focused on more specialty capacity to be focused on more specialty things. And we have the example right things. And we have the example right things. And we have the example right here at this table.

here at this table. here at this table. >> Yeah. It's almost like [laughter] it's >> Yeah. It's almost like [laughter] it's >> Yeah. It's almost like [laughter] it's almost like someone wrote this into the almost like someone wrote this into the almost like someone wrote this into the script that like you and I sit at this script that like you and I sit at this script that like you and I sit at this table every week and talk about this table every week and talk about this table every week and talk about this stuff. stuff. stuff. >> And you belong and worship at the >> And you belong and worship at the >> And you belong and worship at the biggest church in Niagara. biggest church in Niagara. biggest church in Niagara. >> It's how many people on any given >> It's how many people on any given >> It's how many people on any given Sunday? I don't know. Sunday? I don't know. Sunday? I don't know. >> A few thousand. >> A few thousand. >> A few thousand. >> A few services. And in your backyard, >> A few services. And in your backyard, >> A few services. And in your backyard, like the backyard of that mega church in like the backyard of that mega church in like the backyard of that mega church in Niagara, Niagara, Niagara, >> if I was a younger man, could throw a >> if I was a younger man, could throw a >> if I was a younger man, could throw a football from one to the other, football from one to the other, football from one to the other, >> you would hit my church, which is a >> you would hit my church, which is a >> you would hit my church, which is a congregation that's been there on that congregation that's been there on that congregation that's been there on that corner for 30 uh 35 years and has always corner for 30 uh 35 years and has always corner for 30 uh 35 years and has always ever been about 75 people. ever been about 75 people. ever been about 75 people. >> So, as we go through this conversation, >> So, as we go through this conversation, >> So, as we go through this conversation, we are represents we are represents we are represents of each of the sides. Me, the typical of each of the sides. Me, the typical of each of the sides. Me, the typical churchgoer, churchgoer, churchgoer, >> not in full-time ministry. Yes. went to >> not in full-time ministry. Yes. went to >> not in full-time ministry. Yes. went to get my theology degree, have that in get my theology degree, have that in get my theology degree, have that in youth ministry, but became the leader of youth ministry, but became the leader of youth ministry, but became the leader of this ProChurch Tools organization. And this ProChurch Tools organization. And this ProChurch Tools organization. And so that is like my day-to-day vocation. so that is like my day-to-day vocation. so that is like my day-to-day vocation. I am a churchgoer. I don't work at a I am a churchgoer. I don't work at a I am a churchgoer. I don't work at a church. Alex, a biocational pastor who church. Alex, a biocational pastor who church. Alex, a biocational pastor who is the typical pastor of a smaller is the typical pastor of a smaller is the typical pastor of a smaller church. And so we are the dichotomy at church. And so we are the dichotomy at church. And so we are the dichotomy at this table right here, this table right here, this table right here, >> which serves this first idea, which is >> which serves this first idea, which is >> which serves this first idea, which is that there are two different versions of that there are two different versions of that there are two different versions of normal. For me, normal. For me, normal. For me, >> my version as the pastor is actually the >> my version as the pastor is actually the >> my version as the pastor is actually the normal version of church in America normal version of church in America normal version of church in America according to the the stats, which is according to the the stats, which is according to the the stats, which is that most pastors are like me. They that most pastors are like me. They that most pastors are like me. They pastor small churches. Yeah. For you, pastor small churches. Yeah. For you, pastor small churches. Yeah. For you, your version of normal, what your your version of normal, what your your version of normal, what your experience of church is is the experience of church is is the experience of church is is the experience of most people in Niagara. It experience of most people in Niagara. It experience of most people in Niagara. It seems whenever I run into someone, I'm seems whenever I run into someone, I'm seems whenever I run into someone, I'm like, "Hey, what church you going to?"

like, "Hey, what church you going to?" like, "Hey, what church you going to?" "Oh, go to Central." Yeah, of course you "Oh, go to Central." Yeah, of course you "Oh, go to Central." Yeah, of course you do. Cuz most church goes do do. Cuz most church goes do do. Cuz most church goes do >> and you use an interesting language >> and you use an interesting language >> and you use an interesting language there, which is like you're like, "I there, which is like you're like, "I there, which is like you're like, "I pastor a smaller church." Which is like pastor a smaller church." Which is like pastor a smaller church." Which is like that's the normal version. that's the normal version. that's the normal version. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> For the leaders. >> For the leaders. >> For the leaders. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> But the normal version for the attendees >> But the normal version for the attendees >> But the normal version for the attendees is not that. which is this really really is not that. which is this really really is not that. which is this really really strange strange strange obstucation of the math where on one obstucation of the math where on one obstucation of the math where on one side it's one thing and on the other side it's one thing and on the other side it's one thing and on the other side it's another thing and yet you put side it's another thing and yet you put side it's another thing and yet you put your hands together and they fit your hands together and they fit your hands together and they fit perfectly. perfectly. perfectly. >> And so then the conversation becomes >> And so then the conversation becomes >> And so then the conversation becomes like when we talk about the state of like when we talk about the state of like when we talk about the state of church and these are meta conversations church and these are meta conversations church and these are meta conversations that we have in so many different that we have in so many different that we have in so many different expressions. expressions. expressions. >> What side are we talking from? Are we >> What side are we talking from? Are we >> What side are we talking from? Are we talking from the side of leadership or talking from the side of leadership or talking from the side of leadership or are we talking from the side of the are we talking from the side of the are we talking from the side of the parishioners? because that perspective parishioners? because that perspective parishioners? because that perspective will reshape things dramatically. will reshape things dramatically. will reshape things dramatically. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> So, what are some downstream things of >> So, what are some downstream things of >> So, what are some downstream things of this? One of the very popular social this? One of the very popular social this? One of the very popular social media archetypes of the world is come media archetypes of the world is come media archetypes of the world is come with me while I go to the new coffee with me while I go to the new coffee with me while I go to the new coffee shop. Come with me while I go to a Hyrox shop. Come with me while I go to a Hyrox shop. Come with me while I go to a Hyrox class. Come with me while I attend my class. Come with me while I attend my class. Come with me while I attend my friend's wedding. And I'm beginning to friend's wedding. And I'm beginning to friend's wedding. And I'm beginning to see more and more of these on my Tik Tok see more and more of these on my Tik Tok see more and more of these on my Tik Tok feed, on my Instagram feed, like come feed, on my Instagram feed, like come feed, on my Instagram feed, like come with me while I go to church.

with me while I go to church. with me while I go to church. >> And guess what? I'm seeing >> And guess what? I'm seeing >> And guess what? I'm seeing >> a lot of big churches, >> a lot of big churches, >> a lot of big churches, >> right? Because most people go to big >> right? Because most people go to big >> right? Because most people go to big churches. churches. churches. >> Yeah. Most people filming those videos >> Yeah. Most people filming those videos >> Yeah. Most people filming those videos by definition are going to larger by definition are going to larger by definition are going to larger churches. churches. churches. >> Right. >> Right. >> Right. >> Another really interesting part of this >> Another really interesting part of this >> Another really interesting part of this all for me. all for me. all for me. >> I'm going to film one of those videos at >> I'm going to film one of those videos at >> I'm going to film one of those videos at my church so hard this week. my church so hard this week. my church so hard this week. >> You [laughter] should come with me as I >> You [laughter] should come with me as I >> You [laughter] should come with me as I pastor. pastor. pastor. >> Um there is an anti- big church >> Um there is an anti- big church >> Um there is an anti- big church narrative narrative narrative >> that you will find in every corner of >> that you will find in every corner of >> that you will find in every corner of Christendom. It feels like Christendom. It feels like Christendom. It feels like >> and I think it's always funny. I because >> and I think it's always funny. I because >> and I think it's always funny. I because this data I don't know if I've seen it this data I don't know if I've seen it this data I don't know if I've seen it like presented this way before like presented this way before like presented this way before >> and shouts to lifeway for putting it >> and shouts to lifeway for putting it >> and shouts to lifeway for putting it together in this shape together in this shape together in this shape >> but I've always had like this inkling >> but I've always had like this inkling >> but I've always had like this inkling that that that behavior and words are not matching behavior and words are not matching behavior and words are not matching >> with this whole big church narrative cuz >> with this whole big church narrative cuz >> with this whole big church narrative cuz you go to conferences and you talk to you go to conferences and you talk to you go to conferences and you talk to people and if they mention they're at a people and if they mention they're at a people and if they mention they're at a bigger church they're almost like bigger church they're almost like bigger church they're almost like sometimes couching it like in apologetic sometimes couching it like in apologetic sometimes couching it like in apologetic language. Um or people will talk about language. Um or people will talk about language. Um or people will talk about big church and be like, "Yeah, like it's big church and be like, "Yeah, like it's big church and be like, "Yeah, like it's just a big show." Like that's a huge just a big show." Like that's a huge just a big show." Like that's a huge part of the narrative. Yo, you go to a part of the narrative. Yo, you go to a part of the narrative. Yo, you go to a big church and like you won't meet big church and like you won't meet big church and like you won't meet anyone. There's no intimacy. There's no anyone. There's no intimacy. There's no anyone. There's no intimacy. There's no relational connection that's happening relational connection that's happening relational connection that's happening there. It's just spectacle.

there. It's just spectacle. there. It's just spectacle. >> And you hear all this, you don't really >> And you hear all this, you don't really >> And you hear all this, you don't really hear too much like small church bashing. hear too much like small church bashing. hear too much like small church bashing. At least from my perspective, I hear a At least from my perspective, I hear a At least from my perspective, I hear a lot of like, oh, you know, like that's lot of like, oh, you know, like that's lot of like, oh, you know, like that's great. Like, you know, you're just so great. Like, you know, you're just so great. Like, you know, you're just so tightknit, close-knit, that's great. And tightknit, close-knit, that's great. And tightknit, close-knit, that's great. And yet you look at the behavior and it is yet you look at the behavior and it is yet you look at the behavior and it is very different from the narrative. Yeah. very different from the narrative. Yeah. very different from the narrative. Yeah. >> To me this is an actions over words >> To me this is an actions over words >> To me this is an actions over words >> type of observation. What say you? >> type of observation. What say you? >> type of observation. What say you? >> Yeah. I think we could and we're not >> Yeah. I think we could and we're not >> Yeah. I think we could and we're not going to we could descend into like going to we could descend into like going to we could descend into like maybe psychoanalyzing where that is maybe psychoanalyzing where that is maybe psychoanalyzing where that is coming from because you just acknowledge coming from because you just acknowledge coming from because you just acknowledge there's like there can be this negative there's like there can be this negative there's like there can be this negative view on big church but that's not view on big church but that's not view on big church but that's not reciprocated equally on small church. So reciprocated equally on small church. So reciprocated equally on small church. So I think there's like some psychoanalysis I think there's like some psychoanalysis I think there's like some psychoanalysis that could be interesting to have there. that could be interesting to have there. that could be interesting to have there. We're not going to go there today mostly We're not going to go there today mostly We're not going to go there today mostly because we're not qualified, right? because we're not qualified, right? because we're not qualified, right? >> But I think there's something there's >> But I think there's something there's >> But I think there's something there's something to that. Um, I think even just something to that. Um, I think even just something to that. Um, I think even just this is why this is why we love data and this is why this is why we love data and this is why this is why we love data and looking at numbers to inform our looking at numbers to inform our looking at numbers to inform our feelings is because just kind of laying feelings is because just kind of laying feelings is because just kind of laying this out and acknowledging that there this out and acknowledging that there this out and acknowledging that there are two versions of the new normal I are two versions of the new normal I are two versions of the new normal I think kind of just calms the waters on think kind of just calms the waters on think kind of just calms the waters on on these like that conversation and can on these like that conversation and can on these like that conversation and can can kind of yeah pour some cool water on can kind of yeah pour some cool water on can kind of yeah pour some cool water on on that attitude and just acknowledge on that attitude and just acknowledge on that attitude and just acknowledge like yeah there are a couple things like yeah there are a couple things like yeah there are a couple things going on here and in my view as as a as going on here and in my view as as a as going on here and in my view as as a as just a a Christian and a follower of just a a Christian and a follower of just a a Christian and a follower of Jesus and yeah, a pastor of a church of Jesus and yeah, a pastor of a church of Jesus and yeah, a pastor of a church of about 75 people. I'm glad to steer the about 75 people. I'm glad to steer the about 75 people. I'm glad to steer the conversation in that direction because conversation in that direction because conversation in that direction because I'm pretty sure at this point in my I'm pretty sure at this point in my I'm pretty sure at this point in my life, I'm convinced that like every life, I'm convinced that like every life, I'm convinced that like every expression of church kind of belongs and

expression of church kind of belongs and expression of church kind of belongs and is like an asset to the body of Christ. is like an asset to the body of Christ. is like an asset to the body of Christ. And so I think we can kind of just we And so I think we can kind of just we And so I think we can kind of just we can we it would it would benefit us as can we it would it would benefit us as can we it would it would benefit us as as a faith tradition as a whole to just as a faith tradition as a whole to just as a faith tradition as a whole to just kind of shed some of those biases. And kind of shed some of those biases. And kind of shed some of those biases. And and maybe this this data can actually and maybe this this data can actually and maybe this this data can actually help someone do that for the first time help someone do that for the first time help someone do that for the first time and acknowledge okay like yeah I pastor and acknowledge okay like yeah I pastor and acknowledge okay like yeah I pastor a small church and I'm maybe inside here a small church and I'm maybe inside here a small church and I'm maybe inside here comes the psychoanalysis right like comes the psychoanalysis right like comes the psychoanalysis right like maybe inside I'm a little bit bitter maybe inside I'm a little bit bitter maybe inside I'm a little bit bitter about that for reasons or I'm a little about that for reasons or I'm a little about that for reasons or I'm a little bit envious of something else for bit envious of something else for bit envious of something else for reasons and that comes out in this kind reasons and that comes out in this kind reasons and that comes out in this kind of negative bent towards something else of negative bent towards something else of negative bent towards something else but maybe if just by looking at the but maybe if just by looking at the but maybe if just by looking at the numbers we can acknowledge okay this is numbers we can acknowledge okay this is numbers we can acknowledge okay this is the normal experience for pastors and the normal experience for pastors and the normal experience for pastors and over here is kind of the normal over here is kind of the normal over here is kind of the normal experience for churchgoers and on the experience for churchgoers and on the experience for churchgoers and on the whole maybe that's all right. Yeah. whole maybe that's all right. Yeah. whole maybe that's all right. Yeah. Because if you're a big church, you must Because if you're a big church, you must Because if you're a big church, you must be doing something differently than me. be doing something differently than me. be doing something differently than me. And I know how hard I'm working. I know And I know how hard I'm working. I know And I know how hard I'm working. I know how faithful I'm being, how faithful I'm being, how faithful I'm being, >> giving my best shot at being. So, you >> giving my best shot at being. So, you >> giving my best shot at being. So, you must be doing something untoward that I must be doing something untoward that I must be doing something untoward that I wouldn't consider doing to have achieved wouldn't consider doing to have achieved wouldn't consider doing to have achieved that place. that place. that place. And that's a good tease for next week's And that's a good tease for next week's And that's a good tease for next week's episode because we're going to look at episode because we're going to look at episode because we're going to look at disciplehip disciplehip disciplehip and look at the metrics of disciplehip and look at the metrics of disciplehip and look at the metrics of disciplehip and see which churches are reporting the and see which churches are reporting the and see which churches are reporting the best disciplehip and the most thorough best disciplehip and the most thorough best disciplehip and the most thorough levels of people becoming more like levels of people becoming more like levels of people becoming more like Jesus and closer to Jesus.

Jesus and closer to Jesus. Jesus and closer to Jesus. >> The data is very interesting and it >> The data is very interesting and it >> The data is very interesting and it perhaps will break some of the perhaps will break some of the perhaps will break some of the assumptions that you or I have once assumptions that you or I have once assumptions that you or I have once held. Let's move to the second big idea held. Let's move to the second big idea held. Let's move to the second big idea which is trained big and hired small. If which is trained big and hired small. If which is trained big and hired small. If you're a churchgoer, you're going to a you're a churchgoer, you're going to a you're a churchgoer, you're going to a big church on average and you go into big church on average and you go into big church on average and you go into ministry, that would mean that your ministry, that would mean that your ministry, that would mean that your experience starts in a big church and experience starts in a big church and experience starts in a big church and you get used to the amenities and the you get used to the amenities and the you get used to the amenities and the facilities and the specialization and facilities and the specialization and facilities and the specialization and the different apartments and the size the different apartments and the size the different apartments and the size and scope and shape and then you go into and scope and shape and then you go into and scope and shape and then you go into ministry and suddenly you are placed ministry and suddenly you are placed ministry and suddenly you are placed >> in a church that looks nothing like >> in a church that looks nothing like >> in a church that looks nothing like where you came from. And I think to me where you came from. And I think to me where you came from. And I think to me that that is a very very interesting that that is a very very interesting that that is a very very interesting dynamic and that perhaps it could mean dynamic and that perhaps it could mean dynamic and that perhaps it could mean you're being prepared for something that you're being prepared for something that you're being prepared for something that you don't end up in at first. you don't end up in at first. you don't end up in at first. >> Yeah. And then you get then then >> Yeah. And then you get then then >> Yeah. And then you get then then possibly you arrive at the same place possibly you arrive at the same place possibly you arrive at the same place that I just kind of alluded to, which is that I just kind of alluded to, which is that I just kind of alluded to, which is like maybe disappointment, maybe again like maybe disappointment, maybe again like maybe disappointment, maybe again maybe the envy, maybe the bitterness maybe the envy, maybe the bitterness maybe the envy, maybe the bitterness because maybe you grew up in church because maybe you grew up in church because maybe you grew up in church expecting certain things of it. And then expecting certain things of it. And then expecting certain things of it. And then when your placement finally comes and when your placement finally comes and when your placement finally comes and you've been trained to become a pastor, you've been trained to become a pastor, you've been trained to become a pastor, you get you get placed in a situation you get you get placed in a situation you get you get placed in a situation that is entirely different from what that is entirely different from what that is entirely different from what you're used to. Um, I think that our you're used to. Um, I think that our you're used to. Um, I think that our seminaries and and schools of spiritual seminaries and and schools of spiritual seminaries and and schools of spiritual education probably have like a large education probably have like a large education probably have like a large burden to bear here, which is, you know, burden to bear here, which is, you know, burden to bear here, which is, you know, I went through through seminary. I did I went through through seminary. I did I went through through seminary. I did biblical studies and a lot of what I biblical studies and a lot of what I biblical studies and a lot of what I learned was good, but very little of it learned was good, but very little of it learned was good, but very little of it was practical to like actual pastoral was practical to like actual pastoral was practical to like actual pastoral work. Learned how to how to exede a work. Learned how to how to exede a work. Learned how to how to exede a passage well or like even to communicate passage well or like even to communicate passage well or like even to communicate it well. But when it came to like it well. But when it came to like it well. But when it came to like actually pastoring a community, I found

actually pastoring a community, I found actually pastoring a community, I found that like my education was like there that like my education was like there that like my education was like there was a kind of a gaping hole there. Um, was a kind of a gaping hole there. Um, was a kind of a gaping hole there. Um, and so maybe this is kind of just maybe and so maybe this is kind of just maybe and so maybe this is kind of just maybe what this exposes a little bit, which is what this exposes a little bit, which is what this exposes a little bit, which is this is just a like an empirical kind of this is just a like an empirical kind of this is just a like an empirical kind of fact. And it would benefit us who are fact. And it would benefit us who are fact. And it would benefit us who are going through training to become pastors going through training to become pastors going through training to become pastors in in often unknown areas at unknown in in often unknown areas at unknown in in often unknown areas at unknown churches to at least kind of acknowledge churches to at least kind of acknowledge churches to at least kind of acknowledge that this is maybe likely what is to that this is maybe likely what is to that this is maybe likely what is to happen and and the environment that you happen and and the environment that you happen and and the environment that you are likely to pastor in. Yeah. Big idea are likely to pastor in. Yeah. Big idea are likely to pastor in. Yeah. Big idea number three. Big churches set the number three. Big churches set the number three. Big churches set the standard. If you're the average standard. If you're the average standard. If you're the average churchgoer going to a bigger church, churchgoer going to a bigger church, churchgoer going to a bigger church, it follows that you would become it follows that you would become it follows that you would become accustomed to children's and youth accustomed to children's and youth accustomed to children's and youth ministries that look the way they do in ministries that look the way they do in ministries that look the way they do in churches. Worship and production churches. Worship and production churches. Worship and production quality, speed, quality, speed, quality, speed, specialization. specialization. specialization. small churches that then are trying to small churches that then are trying to small churches that then are trying to imitate large churches without the imitate large churches without the imitate large churches without the infrastructure or resources beneath them infrastructure or resources beneath them infrastructure or resources beneath them >> could produce >> could produce >> could produce something that is really disillusioning something that is really disillusioning something that is really disillusioning for attendees that are familiar with a for attendees that are familiar with a for attendees that are familiar with a large church.

large church. large church. >> And at the heart of what we're >> And at the heart of what we're >> And at the heart of what we're discussing here, I think, is asymmetry. discussing here, I think, is asymmetry. discussing here, I think, is asymmetry. The asymmetry between the experience of The asymmetry between the experience of The asymmetry between the experience of the average pastor and the average the average pastor and the average the average pastor and the average churchgoer. And so long as those things churchgoer. And so long as those things churchgoer. And so long as those things are inextricably linked and yet are inextricably linked and yet are inextricably linked and yet diametrically opposed, diametrically opposed, diametrically opposed, we're going to have the tension where we're going to have the tension where we're going to have the tension where they meet. they meet. they meet. >> And that's really at the heart of what >> And that's really at the heart of what >> And that's really at the heart of what we're trying to expose in this episode. we're trying to expose in this episode. we're trying to expose in this episode. Because if you're unaware that that Because if you're unaware that that Because if you're unaware that that tension even exists, I think you could tension even exists, I think you could tension even exists, I think you could hit a wall of resistance via hit a wall of resistance via hit a wall of resistance via programming, via expectations, via your programming, via expectations, via your programming, via expectations, via your own internal beliefs about what's own internal beliefs about what's own internal beliefs about what's possible or what should be happening. possible or what should be happening. possible or what should be happening. churchgoers that come and they seem to churchgoers that come and they seem to churchgoers that come and they seem to behave in ways that are curious to you, behave in ways that are curious to you, behave in ways that are curious to you, but it's because they're bringing in but it's because they're bringing in but it's because they're bringing in something that you actually don't carry something that you actually don't carry something that you actually don't carry because you are pastoring the average because you are pastoring the average because you are pastoring the average church and they're going to the average church and they're going to the average church and they're going to the average church. church. church. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And then there's the online visibility >> And then there's the online visibility >> And then there's the online visibility on social media, right? The fact that if on social media, right? The fact that if on social media, right? The fact that if the average church goer goes to a large the average church goer goes to a large the average church goer goes to a large church, this part is so crazy to me. If church, this part is so crazy to me. If church, this part is so crazy to me. If that was true 25 years ago, that was true 25 years ago, that was true 25 years ago, >> it wouldn't be visible to me at the >> it wouldn't be visible to me at the >> it wouldn't be visible to me at the church that I grew up in.

church that I grew up in. church that I grew up in. >> So, I grew up going to a Baptist church >> So, I grew up going to a Baptist church >> So, I grew up going to a Baptist church of 12 people and we had an acoustic of 12 people and we had an acoustic of 12 people and we had an acoustic guitar that led worship, Days of Elijah. guitar that led worship, Days of Elijah. guitar that led worship, Days of Elijah. We had an overhead projector when you We had an overhead projector when you We had an overhead projector when you had to get to the bridge of Days of had to get to the bridge of Days of had to get to the bridge of Days of Elijah. Elijah. Elijah. >> Second second projection screen. >> Second second projection screen. >> Second second projection screen. >> Yeah. Yeah. There's no triple wide, no >> Yeah. Yeah. There's no triple wide, no >> Yeah. Yeah. There's no triple wide, no iMac. And then we had a pastor who would iMac. And then we had a pastor who would iMac. And then we had a pastor who would speak from a wooden pulpit just with his speak from a wooden pulpit just with his speak from a wooden pulpit just with his voice. There's no need for a microphone. voice. There's no need for a microphone. voice. There's no need for a microphone. So then in youth group, I start going to So then in youth group, I start going to So then in youth group, I start going to the Pentecostal church. Why? Because the Pentecostal church. Why? Because the Pentecostal church. Why? Because they had kids. they had kids. they had kids. >> Mhm. [clears throat] >> Mhm. [clears throat] >> Mhm. [clears throat] >> And my parents were like, "We want faith >> And my parents were like, "We want faith >> And my parents were like, "We want faith to be something that's your own." And to be something that's your own." And to be something that's your own." And there are no kids in this church. there are no kids in this church. there are no kids in this church. >> The pastor had like a few kids and that >> The pastor had like a few kids and that >> The pastor had like a few kids and that was it. There was no one my age. And so was it. There was no one my age. And so was it. There was no one my age. And so they were like, "We want you to go to they were like, "We want you to go to they were like, "We want you to go to youth group so that you can see what youth group so that you can see what youth group so that you can see what faith looks like in your peers." Mh. faith looks like in your peers." Mh. faith looks like in your peers." Mh. >> And so I go to the Pentecostal church >> And so I go to the Pentecostal church >> And so I go to the Pentecostal church and it was 300 people which was very big and it was 300 people which was very big and it was 300 people which was very big for our region, the biggest church. for our region, the biggest church. for our region, the biggest church. >> And we had a youth group at its peak of >> And we had a youth group at its peak of >> And we had a youth group at its peak of like 70, which was pretty unheard of of like 70, which was pretty unheard of of like 70, which was pretty unheard of of a church that size. When we started it a church that size. When we started it a church that size. When we started it was, you know, like a couple dozen, was, you know, like a couple dozen, was, you know, like a couple dozen, >> but that was the only experience of >> but that was the only experience of >> but that was the only experience of church I knew. I [clears throat] knew church I knew. I [clears throat] knew church I knew. I [clears throat] knew like Hillsong existed in Australia.

like Hillsong existed in Australia. like Hillsong existed in Australia. >> Sure. Which is might as well be a >> Sure. Which is might as well be a >> Sure. Which is might as well be a different world, different world, different world, >> right? And I think there was like really >> right? And I think there was like really >> right? And I think there was like really big churches there, but that's all I big churches there, but that's all I big churches there, but that's all I knew. knew. knew. >> Yeah. You're not seeing them on >> Yeah. You're not seeing them on >> Yeah. You're not seeing them on Instagram every time you open the app, Instagram every time you open the app, Instagram every time you open the app, >> right? But if most churchgoers go to big >> right? But if most churchgoers go to big >> right? But if most churchgoers go to big churches, churches, churches, then what you will see most online is then what you will see most online is then what you will see most online is big churches big churches big churches >> despite that being statistically a very >> despite that being statistically a very >> despite that being statistically a very small number of overall churches. And so small number of overall churches. And so small number of overall churches. And so this will distort your perspective on this will distort your perspective on this will distort your perspective on what the normal is, even though the what the normal is, even though the what the normal is, even though the perspective of the people publishing it perspective of the people publishing it perspective of the people publishing it is reflecting the normal for them, but is reflecting the normal for them, but is reflecting the normal for them, but it's not the reflective norm of the it's not the reflective norm of the it's not the reflective norm of the churches in your area or the churches churches in your area or the churches churches in your area or the churches worldwide. And so now you have this worldwide. And so now you have this worldwide. And so now you have this reality that's already asymmetrical that reality that's already asymmetrical that reality that's already asymmetrical that is being [snorts] distorted is being [snorts] distorted is being [snorts] distorted exponentially more because of what exponentially more because of what exponentially more because of what you're seeing as normal. I have been so you're seeing as normal. I have been so you're seeing as normal. I have been so fascinated uh fascinated at human fascinated uh fascinated at human fascinated uh fascinated at human psychology of like watching how my brain psychology of like watching how my brain psychology of like watching how my brain thinks about things based on what's thinks about things based on what's thinks about things based on what's showing up on my feed. So this happens showing up on my feed. So this happens showing up on my feed. So this happens to all of us. I want you to think about to all of us. I want you to think about to all of us. I want you to think about the version of it where you will have a the version of it where you will have a the version of it where you will have a belief or you will have interest in a belief or you will have interest in a belief or you will have interest in a product or you will have interest in a product or you will have interest in a product or you will have interest in a destination and suddenly all you see are destination and suddenly all you see are destination and suddenly all you see are videos of Albania and you're like, "Oh, videos of Albania and you're like, "Oh, videos of Albania and you're like, "Oh, wow. Albania, wow. Albania, wow. Albania, cool Mediterranean destination. I hadn't cool Mediterranean destination. I hadn't cool Mediterranean destination. I hadn't really thought of it before." And really thought of it before." And really thought of it before." And suddenly like your perspective on like suddenly like your perspective on like suddenly like your perspective on like visiting Albania, it just keeps getting visiting Albania, it just keeps getting visiting Albania, it just keeps getting reinforced and you're like, "I really reinforced and you're like, "I really reinforced and you're like, "I really should visit Albania. Look at all these should visit Albania. Look at all these should visit Albania. Look at all these people that are affirming my perspective people that are affirming my perspective people that are affirming my perspective on visiting Albania." And that can be on visiting Albania." And that can be on visiting Albania." And that can be true about something as mundane as true about something as mundane as true about something as mundane as visiting Albania, direct flights on visiting Albania, direct flights on visiting Albania, direct flights on WestJet from YZ. [laughter] >> Or it can be on something a little bit

>> Or it can be on something a little bit more insidious. more insidious. more insidious. >> It's the same effect of when you're >> It's the same effect of when you're >> It's the same effect of when you're thinking about buying a car and then you thinking about buying a car and then you thinking about buying a car and then you see that car everywhere except that's see that car everywhere except that's see that car everywhere except that's you noticing it and this is the you noticing it and this is the you noticing it and this is the dangerous inversion of it where the dangerous inversion of it where the dangerous inversion of it where the algorithm is aware of what you're algorithm is aware of what you're algorithm is aware of what you're looking for and it's like we're going to looking for and it's like we're going to looking for and it's like we're going to give you all of that. And if you see the give you all of that. And if you see the give you all of that. And if you see the same thing over and over again, you will same thing over and over again, you will same thing over and over again, you will begin to believe that it exists in the begin to believe that it exists in the begin to believe that it exists in the world in ways that are disproportionate world in ways that are disproportionate world in ways that are disproportionate to the ways that it actually exists. to the ways that it actually exists. to the ways that it actually exists. >> Yeah, you're right. Um, when it comes to >> Yeah, you're right. Um, when it comes to >> Yeah, you're right. Um, when it comes to big churches setting the standard, I big churches setting the standard, I big churches setting the standard, I think there's a a word of wisdom to both think there's a a word of wisdom to both think there's a a word of wisdom to both pastors and uh, parishioners here, to pastors and uh, parishioners here, to pastors and uh, parishioners here, to the pastor of the the smaller church who the pastor of the the smaller church who the pastor of the the smaller church who sees the visibility of um, the the sees the visibility of um, the the sees the visibility of um, the the larger church with all the events and larger church with all the events and larger church with all the events and all the all the whatever all the uh, the all the all the whatever all the uh, the all the all the whatever all the uh, the appearance of all the resources and all appearance of all the resources and all appearance of all the resources and all the things. There's a word of wisdom to the things. There's a word of wisdom to the things. There's a word of wisdom to the pastor to say like you that you are the pastor to say like you that you are the pastor to say like you that you are not that and you don't have to be that not that and you don't have to be that not that and you don't have to be that and it's not those things get that are and it's not those things get that are and it's not those things get that are going to make you turn from pastor of 75 going to make you turn from pastor of 75 going to make you turn from pastor of 75 to pastor of 750. That's just you don't to pastor of 750. That's just you don't to pastor of 750. That's just you don't have to believe that story. I think the have to believe that story. I think the have to believe that story. I think the the word of wisdom is you need to be the word of wisdom is you need to be the word of wisdom is you need to be true to your congregation, the people true to your congregation, the people true to your congregation, the people who show up at your corner of whatever who show up at your corner of whatever who show up at your corner of whatever road you're parked at and pastor those road you're parked at and pastor those road you're parked at and pastor those people well. And then there's a word to people well. And then there's a word to people well. And then there's a word to the congregant too. And I've I've heard the congregant too. And I've I've heard the congregant too. And I've I've heard the story online and then I've also seen the story online and then I've also seen the story online and then I've also seen it in our church. folks who did belong it in our church. folks who did belong it in our church. folks who did belong to a larger church, who were used to and to a larger church, who were used to and to a larger church, who were used to and conditioned to the pace of life in a conditioned to the pace of life in a conditioned to the pace of life in a larger church, many events, there's just larger church, many events, there's just larger church, many events, there's just like always something to do.

like always something to do. like always something to do. >> And then visiting a smaller church for >> And then visiting a smaller church for >> And then visiting a smaller church for whatever reason, there's like a whatever reason, there's like a whatever reason, there's like a reconditioning period that if if it's reconditioning period that if if it's reconditioning period that if if it's unbeknownst to you, may catch you off unbeknownst to you, may catch you off unbeknownst to you, may catch you off guard. It's like it's almost dizzying guard. It's like it's almost dizzying guard. It's like it's almost dizzying like getting off the the the swirling like getting off the the the swirling like getting off the the the swirling strawberries at the at the carnival, you strawberries at the at the carnival, you strawberries at the at the carnival, you know, like like you're on it, you're know, like like you're on it, you're know, like like you're on it, you're just having a blast, then you get off, just having a blast, then you get off, just having a blast, then you get off, you get your feet on solid ground and you get your feet on solid ground and you get your feet on solid ground and it's like, what is happening to me? We it's like, what is happening to me? We it's like, what is happening to me? We had a a couple come visit our church had a a couple come visit our church had a a couple come visit our church from a larger church. They were looking from a larger church. They were looking from a larger church. They were looking for something smaller for reasons. And for something smaller for reasons. And for something smaller for reasons. And so we were what they were looking for. so we were what they were looking for. so we were what they were looking for. >> They spent a couple weeks, couple >> They spent a couple weeks, couple >> They spent a couple weeks, couple months, and then like disappeared for a months, and then like disappeared for a months, and then like disappeared for a while. And we checked in with them and while. And we checked in with them and while. And we checked in with them and they had found their way back to like a they had found their way back to like a they had found their way back to like a bigger church. They were there for a bigger church. They were there for a bigger church. They were there for a couple months and then they ended up couple months and then they ended up couple months and then they ended up coming back to our church. They belong coming back to our church. They belong coming back to our church. They belong to our church now. And they but they to our church now. And they but they to our church now. And they but they acknowledged. They were like, "Yeah, acknowledged. They were like, "Yeah, acknowledged. They were like, "Yeah, when we first came to your church, we when we first came to your church, we when we first came to your church, we were expecting a lot more. We were were expecting a lot more. We were were expecting a lot more. We were expecting a bunch of events, a bunch of expecting a bunch of events, a bunch of expecting a bunch of events, a bunch of this and that and the other. And because this and that and the other. And because this and that and the other. And because you didn't have it, you didn't have what you didn't have it, you didn't have what you didn't have it, you didn't have what we were conditioned to. It just felt we were conditioned to. It just felt we were conditioned to. It just felt disorienting. And so like we had to go disorienting. And so like we had to go disorienting. And so like we had to go back to what was comfortable."

back to what was comfortable." back to what was comfortable." >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> So they found their way back again for >> So they found their way back again for >> So they found their way back again for reasons. That's not everybody's story. reasons. That's not everybody's story. reasons. That's not everybody's story. Uh but it's something just to Uh but it's something just to Uh but it's something just to acknowledge for for congregants who are acknowledge for for congregants who are acknowledge for for congregants who are are used to or conditioned to one are used to or conditioned to one are used to or conditioned to one particular thing. And let's imagine that particular thing. And let's imagine that particular thing. And let's imagine that they came to your church because they they came to your church because they they came to your church because they wanted more relational connection. And wanted more relational connection. And wanted more relational connection. And let's say that they didn't find that at let's say that they didn't find that at let's say that they didn't find that at the previous church. They come in and the previous church. They come in and the previous church. They come in and right away they're like, "It is easier right away they're like, "It is easier right away they're like, "It is easier to meet people." And then two or three to meet people." And then two or three to meet people." And then two or three weeks in they look at each other over weeks in they look at each other over weeks in they look at each other over dinner and they go, dinner and they go, dinner and they go, >> or they think to themselves silently, I >> or they think to themselves silently, I >> or they think to themselves silently, I found the thing I was looking for and I found the thing I was looking for and I found the thing I was looking for and I lost something that I had no idea I lost something that I had no idea I lost something that I had no idea I cared about. And that's this cared about. And that's this cared about. And that's this conditioning that we're talking about. conditioning that we're talking about. conditioning that we're talking about. And it gets into big idea number four, And it gets into big idea number four, And it gets into big idea number four, which is growth begets growth. which is growth begets growth. which is growth begets growth. >> What does this look like >> What does this look like >> What does this look like >> over generations? >> over generations? >> over generations? >> Does >> Does >> Does this interesting asymmetry get closer to this interesting asymmetry get closer to this interesting asymmetry get closer to like even or does it become more and like even or does it become more and like even or does it become more and more extreme? I think it probably more extreme? I think it probably more extreme? I think it probably becomes more and more extreme because if becomes more and more extreme because if becomes more and more extreme because if you grow up attending the larger church you grow up attending the larger church you grow up attending the larger church as most do and you grow up seeing the as most do and you grow up seeing the as most do and you grow up seeing the larger church on social media which is larger church on social media which is larger church on social media which is reflective of most people going and so reflective of most people going and so reflective of most people going and so you see that does that mean that you you see that does that mean that you you see that does that mean that you choose a larger church when you're choose a larger church when you're choose a larger church when you're older? Does that mean that you are more older? Does that mean that you are more older? Does that mean that you are more likely to leave the smaller church likely to leave the smaller church likely to leave the smaller church because you keep seeing the larger one because you keep seeing the larger one because you keep seeing the larger one and so like 20 years in 30 years in this and so like 20 years in 30 years in this and so like 20 years in 30 years in this is like 955 instead of 9010. Is it 991?

is like 955 instead of 9010. Is it 991? is like 955 instead of 9010. Is it 991? That's a curiosity I don't have an That's a curiosity I don't have an That's a curiosity I don't have an answer to, but it's something that is at answer to, but it's something that is at answer to, but it's something that is at least worth considering. least worth considering. least worth considering. >> Anecdotally, you can see it in the life >> Anecdotally, you can see it in the life >> Anecdotally, you can see it in the life of your church and mine. 25 years ago, I of your church and mine. 25 years ago, I of your church and mine. 25 years ago, I remember when Central was just like a remember when Central was just like a remember when Central was just like a little bit bigger than our church, a little bit bigger than our church, a little bit bigger than our church, a couple hundred people. We would do these couple hundred people. We would do these couple hundred people. We would do these joint praise and worship nights. Oh, joint praise and worship nights. Oh, joint praise and worship nights. Oh, like at once a month, you'd have like like at once a month, you'd have like like at once a month, you'd have like four or five churches in the area would four or five churches in the area would four or five churches in the area would get together at one church for like an get together at one church for like an get together at one church for like an evening worship service. I remember evening worship service. I remember evening worship service. I remember that. And then at some point like that. And then at some point like that. And then at some point like central experienced hockey stick shaped central experienced hockey stick shaped central experienced hockey stick shaped growth. And growth. And growth. And >> that's right, that's a Canadian growth >> that's right, that's a Canadian growth >> that's right, that's a Canadian growth analogy for you. And uh our church analogy for you. And uh our church analogy for you. And uh our church didn't. And so like the growth of didn't. And so like the growth of didn't. And so like the growth of Central has beged the growth of Central Central has beged the growth of Central Central has beged the growth of Central has beged the growth of Central to the has beged the growth of Central to the has beged the growth of Central to the point where point where point where >> you know, you just in the last few years >> you know, you just in the last few years >> you know, you just in the last few years erected this mega building in our erected this mega building in our erected this mega building in our backyard, which is great. Like we're backyard, which is great. Like we're backyard, which is great. Like we're happy to have you. But anecdotally in happy to have you. But anecdotally in happy to have you. But anecdotally in that in that story, you can see that that in that story, you can see that that in that story, you can see that growth has has beg begot. Can you say growth has has beg begot. Can you say growth has has beg begot. Can you say begott? Begotten. Of course, it's in the begott? Begotten. Of course, it's in the begott? Begotten. Of course, it's in the scriptures. Begotten growth. [laughter] scriptures. Begotten growth. [laughter] scriptures. Begotten growth. [laughter] >> Big idea number five. Scale makes room >> Big idea number five. Scale makes room >> Big idea number five. Scale makes room for everyone. We're seeing this right for everyone. We're seeing this right for everyone. We're seeing this right now with one of our employees who now with one of our employees who now with one of our employees who recently relocated from another recently relocated from another recently relocated from another province, been working for us remotely province, been working for us remotely province, been working for us remotely for a few years, decided to relocate for a few years, decided to relocate for a few years, decided to relocate with his wife. And uh he's a Gen Z, he's with his wife. And uh he's a Gen Z, he's with his wife. And uh he's a Gen Z, he's a young and we were at church on Sunday.

a young and we were at church on Sunday. a young and we were at church on Sunday. >> This was the second week in a row where >> This was the second week in a row where >> This was the second week in a row where we go to church and I didn't see him we go to church and I didn't see him we go to church and I didn't see him sitting in our normal spot. And so I go sitting in our normal spot. And so I go sitting in our normal spot. And so I go up to Roxanne who was serving as a up to Roxanne who was serving as a up to Roxanne who was serving as a greeter on Sunday and she's wearing her greeter on Sunday and she's wearing her greeter on Sunday and she's wearing her blue central greeting shirt and I shake blue central greeting shirt and I shake blue central greeting shirt and I shake her hand and I go, "Good morning." And her hand and I go, "Good morning." And her hand and I go, "Good morning." And she says, "Oh, and April are sitting she says, "Oh, and April are sitting she says, "Oh, and April are sitting with the young adults today." with the young adults today." with the young adults today." >> Oh. >> Oh. >> Oh. >> And I go, "What?" And she's like, "I >> And I go, "What?" And she's like, "I >> And I go, "What?" And she's like, "I don't think we're in the cutoff because don't think we're in the cutoff because don't think we're in the cutoff because it's 30 or under." it's 30 or under." it's 30 or under." >> Yikes. >> Yikes. >> Yikes. >> And today's Roxan's birthday. She's not >> And today's Roxan's birthday. She's not >> And today's Roxan's birthday. She's not 30 or under. 30. 30 or under. 30. 30 or under. 30. >> Nor am I. And nor am. And so we were not sitting with April And so we were not sitting with April and Owen in the young adults group, and Owen in the young adults group, and Owen in the young adults group, >> but the church of our size affords them >> but the church of our size affords them >> but the church of our size affords them the ability the ability the ability >> to go to a group that's sizable of >> to go to a group that's sizable of >> to go to a group that's sizable of people that are within their age group. people that are within their age group. people that are within their age group. Like look, Owen and I are friends. Like Like look, Owen and I are friends. Like Like look, Owen and I are friends. Like he's not like some he's not like some he's not like some >> 13year-old. He's like, you know, >> 13year-old. He's like, you know, >> 13year-old. He's like, you know, >> yeah, >> yeah, >> yeah, >> I I don't think of him as that different >> I I don't think of him as that different >> I I don't think of him as that different in age. And yet in our church, like he's in age. And yet in our church, like he's in age. And yet in our church, like he's in a different group. Like he sits with in a different group. Like he sits with in a different group. Like he sits with the young adults. the young adults. the young adults. >> And you come to my church, brother, we >> And you come to my church, brother, we >> And you come to my church, brother, we are all one group. Welcome to the group.

are all one group. Welcome to the group. are all one group. Welcome to the group. >> [laughter] >> Big idea number six, small churches win >> Big idea number six, small churches win on commitment. This is what we know on commitment. This is what we know on commitment. This is what we know about about about behavior in smaller churches. There is behavior in smaller churches. There is behavior in smaller churches. There is higher giving per attendee. higher giving per attendee. higher giving per attendee. >> There is higher volunteer participation. >> There is higher volunteer participation. >> There is higher volunteer participation. There is a greater percentage of members There is a greater percentage of members There is a greater percentage of members attending regularly. attending regularly. attending regularly. >> There is more relational familiarity >> There is more relational familiarity >> There is more relational familiarity and there's a larger percentage of and there's a larger percentage of and there's a larger percentage of spending directed towards missions and spending directed towards missions and spending directed towards missions and charity. We have done videos and charity. We have done videos and charity. We have done videos and articles on this in the past when we articles on this in the past when we articles on this in the past when we look at church budgets. And it's look at church budgets. And it's look at church budgets. And it's interesting to see that despite bigger interesting to see that despite bigger interesting to see that despite bigger churches having much larger annual churches having much larger annual churches having much larger annual budgets percentage-wise, it's the budgets percentage-wise, it's the budgets percentage-wise, it's the smaller churches that have more smaller churches that have more smaller churches that have more committed people and the smaller committed people and the smaller committed people and the smaller churches that are actually giving more churches that are actually giving more churches that are actually giving more relative to their budget size. relative to their budget size. relative to their budget size. >> And so that's what we can say with some >> And so that's what we can say with some >> And so that's what we can say with some level of confidence that smaller level of confidence that smaller level of confidence that smaller churches do produce more committed churches do produce more committed churches do produce more committed members. Mhm. members. Mhm. members. Mhm. >> I was able to congratulate my >> I was able to congratulate my >> I was able to congratulate my congregation a little while ago. We use congregation a little while ago. We use congregation a little while ago. We use the stat here on this show a lot. We we the stat here on this show a lot. We we the stat here on this show a lot. We we reference it that like the average reference it that like the average reference it that like the average church go in America attends church two church go in America attends church two church go in America attends church two out of every five Sundays.

out of every five Sundays. out of every five Sundays. >> And you said, "Thank God we're not like >> And you said, "Thank God we're not like >> And you said, "Thank God we're not like those at Central [laughter] those at Central [laughter] those at Central [laughter] on the other corner of the street." on the other corner of the street." on the other corner of the street." >> That's not quite what I said. >> That's not quite what I said. >> That's not quite what I said. >> I stand in front and [clears throat] I >> I stand in front and [clears throat] I >> I stand in front and [clears throat] I say, "Thank God I am not like [laughter] say, "Thank God I am not like [laughter] say, "Thank God I am not like [laughter] the people that do not give of their the people that do not give of their the people that do not give of their money." money." money." >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Thank God. [laughter] No, but I was able >> Thank God. [laughter] No, but I was able >> Thank God. [laughter] No, but I was able to look at them and it was within to look at them and it was within to look at them and it was within context, but I was able to look at the context, but I was able to look at the context, but I was able to look at the folks who do show up every Sunday and folks who do show up every Sunday and folks who do show up every Sunday and say like, I thought about you all this say like, I thought about you all this say like, I thought about you all this week and we don't keep attendance at our week and we don't keep attendance at our week and we don't keep attendance at our church, but I thought about you all. And church, but I thought about you all. And church, but I thought about you all. And because our church is so small, I or because our church is so small, I or because our church is so small, I or because it is the size that it is, I can because it is the size that it is, I can because it is the size that it is, I can notice who is here and who is not. And notice who is here and who is not. And notice who is here and who is not. And most of you show up a lot more. Most of most of you show up a lot more. Most of most of you show up a lot more. Most of you are here every week. And as a a you are here every week. And as a a you are here every week. And as a a pastor and someone who's like committed pastor and someone who's like committed pastor and someone who's like committed to journeying with Jesus with you all, to journeying with Jesus with you all, to journeying with Jesus with you all, like that means something. Um, so yeah, like that means something. Um, so yeah, like that means something. Um, so yeah, I I I experienced that in our little I I I experienced that in our little I I I experienced that in our little congregation there. Yep. Big idea number congregation there. Yep. Big idea number congregation there. Yep. Big idea number seven, the middle gets squeezed. So I seven, the middle gets squeezed. So I seven, the middle gets squeezed. So I want to talk about the churches that are want to talk about the churches that are want to talk about the churches that are not being highlighted in here. We keep not being highlighted in here. We keep not being highlighted in here. We keep talking about the churches of under 100, talking about the churches of under 100, talking about the churches of under 100, the churches of like, you know, 7, 800, the churches of like, you know, 7, 800, the churches of like, you know, 7, 800, a thousand plus. There is this middle a thousand plus. There is this middle a thousand plus. There is this middle group. I talked about the church that I group. I talked about the church that I group. I talked about the church that I grew up in, grew up in, grew up in, >> Alist Pentecostal Church, that was 300 >> Alist Pentecostal Church, that was 300 >> Alist Pentecostal Church, that was 300 or so people. The middle is kind of or so people. The middle is kind of or so people. The middle is kind of getting squeezed in this narrative getting squeezed in this narrative getting squeezed in this narrative where, you know, you're too large to where, you know, you're too large to where, you know, you're too large to know everyone. There were people that I know everyone. There were people that I know everyone. There were people that I recognized, but I never knew their names recognized, but I never knew their names recognized, but I never knew their names at that church of 300, but you're too at that church of 300, but you're too at that church of 300, but you're too small usually to employ specialist small usually to employ specialist small usually to employ specialist roles. We didn't have a young adults

roles. We didn't have a young adults roles. We didn't have a young adults ministry really. Um, we had a youth ministry really. Um, we had a youth ministry really. Um, we had a youth group. We had children's ministry. Um, group. We had children's ministry. Um, group. We had children's ministry. Um, but we didn't have like young adults. We but we didn't have like young adults. We but we didn't have like young adults. We weren't quite big enough for that. There weren't quite big enough for that. There weren't quite big enough for that. There was like an informal group. It never was like an informal group. It never was like an informal group. It never really like formed it into anything like really like formed it into anything like really like formed it into anything like actually formal. And the middle can be actually formal. And the middle can be actually formal. And the middle can be tricky because you can sometimes have tricky because you can sometimes have tricky because you can sometimes have the expectations of a large church the expectations of a large church the expectations of a large church >> but without the resources. And the >> but without the resources. And the >> but without the resources. And the expectations are there from maybe an expectations are there from maybe an expectations are there from maybe an example of that family, right? example of that family, right? example of that family, right? in between leaving the large church and in between leaving the large church and in between leaving the large church and going to your small church, they were going to your small church, they were going to your small church, they were like, "Let's try a medium church." like, "Let's try a medium church." like, "Let's try a medium church." >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And they found a church of 300. And they >> And they found a church of 300. And they >> And they found a church of 300. And they went in there and they're like, "Okay, went in there and they're like, "Okay, went in there and they're like, "Okay, I'm pretty confident we can meet people I'm pretty confident we can meet people I'm pretty confident we can meet people >> and this church might have more of the >> and this church might have more of the >> and this church might have more of the things or the pace that we're things or the pace that we're things or the pace that we're expecting." expecting." expecting." >> And then they found that like that's not >> And then they found that like that's not >> And then they found that like that's not really true. And it's still kind of hard really true. And it's still kind of hard really true. And it's still kind of hard to meet people, but there aren't as many to meet people, but there aren't as many to meet people, but there aren't as many people and they're kind of just like people and they're kind of just like people and they're kind of just like stuck in the middle. And I again I don't stuck in the middle. And I again I don't stuck in the middle. And I again I don't really have like a solution to this. really have like a solution to this. really have like a solution to this. It's more just like a tension to It's more just like a tension to It's more just like a tension to acknowledge. Um acknowledge. Um acknowledge. Um >> do you have any thoughts? I think about >> do you have any thoughts? I think about >> do you have any thoughts? I think about we described the polarity earlier maybe we described the polarity earlier maybe we described the polarity earlier maybe about the big churches continuing to get about the big churches continuing to get about the big churches continuing to get bigger and like and the the yeah the the bigger and like and the the yeah the the bigger and like and the the yeah the the the ends of the spectrum just just the ends of the spectrum just just the ends of the spectrum just just getting like farther apart. I wonder getting like farther apart. I wonder getting like farther apart. I wonder what that I don't have an answer. I just what that I don't have an answer. I just what that I don't have an answer. I just wonder what that means for the wonder what that means for the wonder what that means for the middlesized churches. Does it always middlesized churches. Does it always middlesized churches. Does it always stay a church of 350 or does it skew stay a church of 350 or does it skew stay a church of 350 or does it skew towards does growth beget growth in the towards does growth beget growth in the towards does growth beget growth in the same way that it does in a congregation same way that it does in a congregation same way that it does in a congregation of 750 or a thousand?

of 750 or a thousand? of 750 or a thousand? >> Right. >> Right. >> Right. >> Like is that is it exponential or do you >> Like is that is it exponential or do you >> Like is that is it exponential or do you just kind of are you just between 350 just kind of are you just between 350 just kind of are you just between 350 and 500 all the time? Is that are you and 500 all the time? Is that are you and 500 all the time? Is that are you just stuck there in the middle? I don't just stuck there in the middle? I don't just stuck there in the middle? I don't know. know. know. >> Right. Is there a magnetic pull to one >> Right. Is there a magnetic pull to one >> Right. Is there a magnetic pull to one of either two sides? Like for a season of either two sides? Like for a season of either two sides? Like for a season you're here, but fast forward 5 to 10 you're here, but fast forward 5 to 10 you're here, but fast forward 5 to 10 years and in most cases that church ends years and in most cases that church ends years and in most cases that church ends up closer to 100 or closer to the larger up closer to 100 or closer to the larger up closer to 100 or closer to the larger size. I think that's a really size. I think that's a really size. I think that's a really interesting observation. And what I will interesting observation. And what I will interesting observation. And what I will say anchoring this into the work that we say anchoring this into the work that we say anchoring this into the work that we do every single week, it is often the do every single week, it is often the do every single week, it is often the churches of that size that come to me churches of that size that come to me churches of that size that come to me and say, "We are not small anymore. Our and say, "We are not small anymore. Our and say, "We are not small anymore. Our systems are still small and everything systems are still small and everything systems are still small and everything feels chaotic behind the scenes." You feels chaotic behind the scenes." You feels chaotic behind the scenes." You know, the church chaos episode number know, the church chaos episode number know, the church chaos episode number four at North Broadway Church, that was four at North Broadway Church, that was four at North Broadway Church, that was a church that had doubled to 500 in like a church that had doubled to 500 in like a church that had doubled to 500 in like a span of 24 months. And we're talking a span of 24 months. And we're talking a span of 24 months. And we're talking to that pastor and you can go watch this to that pastor and you can go watch this to that pastor and you can go watch this on the Brady Sheer YouTube channel, on the Brady Sheer YouTube channel, on the Brady Sheer YouTube channel, Church Chaos episode number four with Church Chaos episode number four with Church Chaos episode number four with North Broadway. And and he says to me, North Broadway. And and he says to me, North Broadway. And and he says to me, he's like, "Yeah, 500 people. We have an he's like, "Yeah, 500 people. We have an he's like, "Yeah, 500 people. We have an equal amount under 30, an equal amount equal amount under 30, an equal amount equal amount under 30, an equal amount 30 to 60, and equal amount 60 plus."

30 to 60, and equal amount 60 plus." 30 to 60, and equal amount 60 plus." >> And there are people with a Baptist >> And there are people with a Baptist >> And there are people with a Baptist background. This was a Baptist church. background. This was a Baptist church. background. This was a Baptist church. There are plenty with a non-baptist There are plenty with a non-baptist There are plenty with a non-baptist background. There are plenty with no background. There are plenty with no background. There are plenty with no faith background. and we have a diverse faith background. and we have a diverse faith background. and we have a diverse ethnic group in our region and so that's ethnic group in our region and so that's ethnic group in our region and so that's reflected in our church. And I said to reflected in our church. And I said to reflected in our church. And I said to him, I was like, "Are you as excited as him, I was like, "Are you as excited as him, I was like, "Are you as excited as I am right now?" And he's like, I am right now?" And he's like, I am right now?" And he's like, [laughter] [laughter] [laughter] >> "Well, >> "Well, >> "Well, >> in theory, but not not on Tuesday." >> in theory, but not not on Tuesday." >> in theory, but not not on Tuesday." >> And then I realized in the moment and I >> And then I realized in the moment and I >> And then I realized in the moment and I said to him, I was like, "Oh, like this said to him, I was like, "Oh, like this said to him, I was like, "Oh, like this is exciting for me because I'm is exciting for me because I'm is exciting for me because I'm parachuting in parachuting in parachuting in >> and you have to deal with like the chaos >> and you have to deal with like the chaos >> and you have to deal with like the chaos of these systems not supporting what's of these systems not supporting what's of these systems not supporting what's happening on Sunday." And the church was happening on Sunday." And the church was happening on Sunday." And the church was like, "Yeah, we have one small group like, "Yeah, we have one small group like, "Yeah, we have one small group because like everyone is from different because like everyone is from different because like everyone is from different backgrounds. We're trying to get them backgrounds. We're trying to get them backgrounds. We're trying to get them all like, hey, this is the mission of all like, hey, this is the mission of all like, hey, this is the mission of this church. So when you belong as part this church. So when you belong as part this church. So when you belong as part of North Broadway, here's the direction of North Broadway, here's the direction of North Broadway, here's the direction that we're going." It's so often the that we're going." It's so often the that we're going." It's so often the churches of that size. And maybe that churches of that size. And maybe that churches of that size. And maybe that speaks to the magnet that is going to speaks to the magnet that is going to speaks to the magnet that is going to pull you in one direction or the other, pull you in one direction or the other, pull you in one direction or the other, >> which is like you can put in place the >> which is like you can put in place the >> which is like you can put in place the systems that will support this many systems that will support this many systems that will support this many people and that will then prepare you to people and that will then prepare you to people and that will then prepare you to grow. grow. grow. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Or you will not be able to do that. and >> Or you will not be able to do that. and >> Or you will not be able to do that. and fast forward a certain number of years fast forward a certain number of years fast forward a certain number of years and you'll go back down because people and you'll go back down because people and you'll go back down because people are like, "Yeah, like there's a lot of are like, "Yeah, like there's a lot of are like, "Yeah, like there's a lot of potential at this church, but like it's potential at this church, but like it's potential at this church, but like it's pretty chaotic and it's actually like a pretty chaotic and it's actually like a pretty chaotic and it's actually like a little bit dysfunctional." And I might little bit dysfunctional." And I might little bit dysfunctional." And I might not even use that word, but I'm feeling not even use that word, but I'm feeling not even use that word, but I'm feeling it on a week toeek basis. And that's it on a week toeek basis. And that's it on a week toeek basis. And that's what causes me to like leave out the what causes me to like leave out the what causes me to like leave out the back door eventually. And I always have back door eventually. And I always have back door eventually. And I always have great things to say about that church, great things to say about that church, great things to say about that church, but if you gave me truth serum or if I but if you gave me truth serum or if I but if you gave me truth serum or if I was even like aware enough because I'm was even like aware enough because I'm was even like aware enough because I'm just a churchgoer, like I'm not thinking just a churchgoer, like I'm not thinking just a churchgoer, like I'm not thinking about like the behind the scenes. There about like the behind the scenes. There about like the behind the scenes. There was probably behindthe-scenes chaos that was probably behindthe-scenes chaos that was probably behindthe-scenes chaos that led to dysfunction on Sunday and

led to dysfunction on Sunday and led to dysfunction on Sunday and dysfunction throughout the week and it dysfunction throughout the week and it dysfunction throughout the week and it wasn't sustainable to be a part of. wasn't sustainable to be a part of. wasn't sustainable to be a part of. >> Yeah. Yeah. That's insightful. >> Yeah. Yeah. That's insightful. >> Yeah. Yeah. That's insightful. >> All right. Next big idea is big churches >> All right. Next big idea is big churches >> All right. Next big idea is big churches control the story. We talked about this control the story. We talked about this control the story. We talked about this on the social side, but it's also true on the social side, but it's also true on the social side, but it's also true about books and conferences and podcasts about books and conferences and podcasts about books and conferences and podcasts and worship music and leadership and worship music and leadership and worship music and leadership frameworks. They are disproportionately frameworks. They are disproportionately frameworks. They are disproportionately coming from large churches, which means coming from large churches, which means coming from large churches, which means that the least representative pocket of that the least representative pocket of that the least representative pocket of churches by number are the ones defining churches by number are the ones defining churches by number are the ones defining best practices for everyone. And if you best practices for everyone. And if you best practices for everyone. And if you are a pastor, surely you are mindful of are a pastor, surely you are mindful of are a pastor, surely you are mindful of this. But it's probably worth a reminder this. But it's probably worth a reminder this. But it's probably worth a reminder that the book that you're reading or the that the book that you're reading or the that the book that you're reading or the conference that you're going to conference that you're going to conference that you're going to >> is [snorts] >> is [snorts] >> is [snorts] platforming voices that are coming at platforming voices that are coming at platforming voices that are coming at things from a different dimension than things from a different dimension than things from a different dimension than you are. And that asymmetry is a you are. And that asymmetry is a you are. And that asymmetry is a reality. And I don't know if there's reality. And I don't know if there's reality. And I don't know if there's anyone who's to blame for it anyone who's to blame for it anyone who's to blame for it >> because conferences will try their very >> because conferences will try their very >> because conferences will try their very best to platform people that are coming best to platform people that are coming best to platform people that are coming from small churches. I've seen from small churches. I've seen from small churches. I've seen conferences try to start up like we're conferences try to start up like we're conferences try to start up like we're going to do a small church conference going to do a small church conference going to do a small church conference and then like no one bought tickets.

and then like no one bought tickets. and then like no one bought tickets. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Even though that's all the churches that >> Even though that's all the churches that >> Even though that's all the churches that the pastors are in, but all the pastors the pastors are in, but all the pastors the pastors are in, but all the pastors want to be at the big churches. And want to be at the big churches. And want to be at the big churches. And maybe because if they're our age, they maybe because if they're our age, they maybe because if they're our age, they grew up going to big churches. And so grew up going to big churches. And so grew up going to big churches. And so they feel like this is where I want my they feel like this is where I want my they feel like this is where I want my church to be, which I think is a church to be, which I think is a church to be, which I think is a perfectly fine aspiration. And I'm not perfectly fine aspiration. And I'm not perfectly fine aspiration. And I'm not here to tell you that that objective is here to tell you that that objective is here to tell you that that objective is wrong. But it is separate from the wrong. But it is separate from the wrong. But it is separate from the reality of what's right now. reality of what's right now. reality of what's right now. The asymmetry of this The asymmetry of this The asymmetry of this >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> can create so many like uncomfortable >> can create so many like uncomfortable >> can create so many like uncomfortable conversations and uncomfortable conversations and uncomfortable conversations and uncomfortable realities. Like every time I mention realities. Like every time I mention realities. Like every time I mention something like this, I'm almost wanting something like this, I'm almost wanting something like this, I'm almost wanting to give that disclaimer or I want to to give that disclaimer or I want to to give that disclaimer or I want to couch it in a statement. We're not here couch it in a statement. We're not here couch it in a statement. We're not here to offer solutions. And that's because I to offer solutions. And that's because I to offer solutions. And that's because I [laughter] I say it a lot. I'm like, [laughter] I say it a lot. I'm like, [laughter] I say it a lot. I'm like, holy yikes. Like, holy yikes. Like, holy yikes. Like, >> and I'm not sure what to do with that. >> and I'm not sure what to do with that. >> and I'm not sure what to do with that. >> Yeah. I mean, if for for folks who are >> Yeah. I mean, if for for folks who are >> Yeah. I mean, if for for folks who are pastoring and volunteering and belonging pastoring and volunteering and belonging pastoring and volunteering and belonging to smaller churches, it in my to smaller churches, it in my to smaller churches, it in my experience, it often results in just experience, it often results in just experience, it often results in just like lowquality decision-m like lowquality decision-m like lowquality decision-m because, okay, let's use worship music because, okay, let's use worship music because, okay, let's use worship music for example. Any worship leader in a for example. Any worship leader in a for example. Any worship leader in a smaller church with like three band smaller church with like three band smaller church with like three band members who's tried to play any of the members who's tried to play any of the members who's tried to play any of the top 40 songs that are produced by like top 40 songs that are produced by like top 40 songs that are produced by like when did that article come out last when did that article come out last when did that article come out last year? It said like all the the top 100 year? It said like all the the top 100 year? It said like all the the top 100 Christian songs sung in worship are are Christian songs sung in worship are are Christian songs sung in worship are are made by like these four people, right?

made by like these four people, right? made by like these four people, right? It's like there's this monopoly. But It's like there's this monopoly. But It's like there's this monopoly. But like if you've ever tried to play a like if you've ever tried to play a like if you've ever tried to play a Bethl music song or like an elevation Bethl music song or like an elevation Bethl music song or like an elevation worship song in a band arrangement of worship song in a band arrangement of worship song in a band arrangement of three people, you're like you're three people, you're like you're three people, you're like you're listening to the track or you're opening listening to the track or you're opening listening to the track or you're opening up Planning Center and they're like they up Planning Center and they're like they up Planning Center and they're like they got three drum tracks and I got one like got three drum tracks and I got one like got three drum tracks and I got one like middle-aged guy on the congos like how middle-aged guy on the congos like how middle-aged guy on the congos like how am I supposed to replicate this? So then am I supposed to replicate this? So then am I supposed to replicate this? So then when when you when you ask the question, when when you when you ask the question, when when you when you ask the question, how am I supposed to replicate this? And how am I supposed to replicate this? And how am I supposed to replicate this? And you try to replicate it. That's when you you try to replicate it. That's when you you try to replicate it. That's when you end up making lowquality decisions. you end up making lowquality decisions. you end up making lowquality decisions. you end up like playing backing tracks when end up like playing backing tracks when end up like playing backing tracks when you have an arrangement of three band you have an arrangement of three band you have an arrangement of three band members because you don't have the band members because you don't have the band members because you don't have the band members to fill out the Bethl track when members to fill out the Bethl track when members to fill out the Bethl track when instead you should be playing the song instead you should be playing the song instead you should be playing the song but adapting it to your space. You got but adapting it to your space. You got but adapting it to your space. You got three band members and 30 congregants. three band members and 30 congregants. three band members and 30 congregants. Like you don't need the second and third Like you don't need the second and third Like you don't need the second and third drum backing track. You just need the drum backing track. You just need the drum backing track. You just need the congas and the guitar and the vocalist. congas and the guitar and the vocalist. congas and the guitar and the vocalist. Um and so you can apply that to like any Um and so you can apply that to like any Um and so you can apply that to like any of these other areas too, right? like of these other areas too, right? like of these other areas too, right? like these leadership tactics or some of the these leadership tactics or some of the these leadership tactics or some of the stuff you you'll read or listen to. Like stuff you you'll read or listen to. Like stuff you you'll read or listen to. Like they're coming from almost a different they're coming from almost a different they're coming from almost a different worldview, certainly like a different worldview, certainly like a different worldview, certainly like a different church view. So that's not to say that church view. So that's not to say that church view. So that's not to say that you can't do anything well with the you can't do anything well with the you can't do anything well with the information, but you can't carbon copy information, but you can't carbon copy information, but you can't carbon copy it onto your situation. You have to it onto your situation. You have to it onto your situation. You have to really learn as a pastor of a small really learn as a pastor of a small really learn as a pastor of a small congregation to adapt this whatever congregation to adapt this whatever congregation to adapt this whatever you're gleaning from larger churches, you're gleaning from larger churches, you're gleaning from larger churches, adapt it faithfully to your congregation adapt it faithfully to your congregation adapt it faithfully to your congregation and not just like copy and paste cuz and not just like copy and paste cuz and not just like copy and paste cuz that's that's not going to be fruitful.

that's that's not going to be fruitful. that's that's not going to be fruitful. So that's Alex's final word coming from So that's Alex's final word coming from So that's Alex's final word coming from the perspective of the 90% pastoring a the perspective of the 90% pastoring a the perspective of the 90% pastoring a smaller church. So here will be my final smaller church. So here will be my final smaller church. So here will be my final word coming from the majority of word coming from the majority of word coming from the majority of churchgoers that attend the larger churchgoers that attend the larger churchgoers that attend the larger church and that is that big churches church and that is that big churches church and that is that big churches must come to terms with carrying a must come to terms with carrying a must come to terms with carrying a bigger responsibility bigger responsibility bigger responsibility >> that we have to steward disproportionate >> that we have to steward disproportionate >> that we have to steward disproportionate money staff influence money staff influence money staff influence and pastoral pipelines because that's and pastoral pipelines because that's and pastoral pipelines because that's the reality of our books and that can't the reality of our books and that can't the reality of our books and that can't just serve us just serve us just serve us >> and it can't just serve like our mission >> and it can't just serve like our mission >> and it can't just serve like our mission >> because if this asymmetry exists, >> because if this asymmetry exists, >> because if this asymmetry exists, that means that there will be that means that there will be that means that there will be asymmetrical outcomes. asymmetrical outcomes. asymmetrical outcomes. >> So, if we're a church that's >> So, if we're a church that's >> So, if we're a church that's experiencing the benefits of the experiencing the benefits of the experiencing the benefits of the asymmetrical outcomes, asymmetrical outcomes, asymmetrical outcomes, >> then what are we doing with that to >> then what are we doing with that to >> then what are we doing with that to support those that are on the other support those that are on the other support those that are on the other side? side? side? >> Because if they're intertwined, then one >> Because if they're intertwined, then one >> Because if they're intertwined, then one is likely affecting the other. is likely affecting the other. is likely affecting the other. >> Obviously, as a bigger church, we want >> Obviously, as a bigger church, we want >> Obviously, as a bigger church, we want to avoid replacing participation with to avoid replacing participation with to avoid replacing participation with consumption, right? We know as bigger consumption, right? We know as bigger consumption, right? We know as bigger churches that the pull towards spectacle churches that the pull towards spectacle churches that the pull towards spectacle >> and letting people that attend our >> and letting people that attend our >> and letting people that attend our church just stop there church just stop there church just stop there >> is the weakness of the larger church. It >> is the weakness of the larger church. It >> is the weakness of the larger church. It doesn't have to be the destiny of the doesn't have to be the destiny of the doesn't have to be the destiny of the larger church. And next week we're going larger church. And next week we're going larger church. And next week we're going to talk about disciplehip in smaller to talk about disciplehip in smaller to talk about disciplehip in smaller churches, disciplehip in larger churches churches, disciplehip in larger churches churches, disciplehip in larger churches and try to untangle and get to the root and try to untangle and get to the root and try to untangle and get to the root and answer to the big question which is and answer to the big question which is and answer to the big question which is like can disciplehip occur at bigger like can disciplehip occur at bigger like can disciplehip occur at bigger churches or is the ultimate destiny like

churches or is the ultimate destiny like churches or is the ultimate destiny like wow amazing spectacle and everyone loves wow amazing spectacle and everyone loves wow amazing spectacle and everyone loves going there but it is just kind of going there but it is just kind of going there but it is just kind of surface level. Is that true or are there surface level. Is that true or are there surface level. Is that true or are there outliers? The final question I had here written The final question I had here written down was our larger churches down was our larger churches down was our larger churches strengthening the broader church strengthening the broader church strengthening the broader church ecosystem or are we primarily ecosystem or are we primarily ecosystem or are we primarily strengthening ourselves? strengthening ourselves? strengthening ourselves? >> I think that is what would go through >> I think that is what would go through >> I think that is what would go through the mind of of me as a churchgoer of a the mind of of me as a churchgoer of a the mind of of me as a churchgoer of a larger church who's like adjacent to larger church who's like adjacent to larger church who's like adjacent to those that are in ministry. those that are in ministry. those that are in ministry. >> Are we the ones that are benefiting from >> Are we the ones that are benefiting from >> Are we the ones that are benefiting from this? One of the conversations I have this? One of the conversations I have this? One of the conversations I have with my pastor all the time is like, with my pastor all the time is like, with my pastor all the time is like, "What can we do to strengthen the "What can we do to strengthen the "What can we do to strengthen the Canadian church Canadian church Canadian church >> because we are Canadians and we're >> because we are Canadians and we're >> because we are Canadians and we're reading American data here. He's married reading American data here. He's married reading American data here. He's married to an American." to an American." to an American." >> That's right. >> That's right. >> That's right. >> We serve mostly American churches. >> We serve mostly American churches. >> We serve mostly American churches. >> You could throw a football over to the >> You could throw a football over to the >> You could throw a football over to the States from here. States from here. States from here. >> I couldn't throw it to Alex's church, >> I couldn't throw it to Alex's church, >> I couldn't throw it to Alex's church, but I could throw it to America. but I could throw it to America. but I could throw it to America. >> And so when we talk about like the >> And so when we talk about like the >> And so when we talk about like the Canadian church, we talk about, hey, Canadian church, we talk about, hey, Canadian church, we talk about, hey, like we're mostly going to American like we're mostly going to American like we're mostly going to American conferences. We're being influenced by conferences. We're being influenced by conferences. We're being influenced by the American church.

the American church. the American church. But like we have things that are But like we have things that are But like we have things that are happening here. What can we do to happening here. What can we do to happening here. What can we do to strengthen other churches? And it's this strengthen other churches? And it's this strengthen other churches? And it's this continuous conversation. And I think continuous conversation. And I think continuous conversation. And I think it's, it's, it's, >> you know, a byproduct of knowing that we >> you know, a byproduct of knowing that we >> you know, a byproduct of knowing that we cannot be the only benefactors of all cannot be the only benefactors of all cannot be the only benefactors of all the great things that are happening in the great things that are happening in the great things that are happening in our ministry. You know, we have so many our ministry. You know, we have so many our ministry. You know, we have so many cool things that are going on. What cool things that are going on. What cool things that are going on. What lessons are we learning? What tactics lessons are we learning? What tactics lessons are we learning? What tactics are we experimenting with? What are what are we experimenting with? What are what are we experimenting with? What are what are within the bandwidth that we have, are within the bandwidth that we have, are within the bandwidth that we have, what truths are we discovering that we what truths are we discovering that we what truths are we discovering that we can share with others to use them? can share with others to use them? can share with others to use them? because that is our responsibility if we because that is our responsibility if we because that is our responsibility if we are experiencing outcomes that are are experiencing outcomes that are are experiencing outcomes that are asymmetrical to other churches. asymmetrical to other churches. asymmetrical to other churches. >> Then the big question is what about the >> Then the big question is what about the >> Then the big question is what about the actual churchgoers? We know what their actual churchgoers? We know what their actual churchgoers? We know what their behavior is but the purpose of going to behavior is but the purpose of going to behavior is but the purpose of going to church is to be formed church is to be formed church is to be formed >> to be more like Jesus to submit >> to be more like Jesus to submit >> to be more like Jesus to submit ourselves to the great commission and ourselves to the great commission and ourselves to the great commission and the greatest commandments and to take up the greatest commandments and to take up the greatest commandments and to take up our cross and to walk on that narrow our cross and to walk on that narrow our cross and to walk on that narrow road. road. road. Is it happening in small churches? Is it Is it happening in small churches? Is it Is it happening in small churches? Is it happening in big churches? Because this happening in big churches? Because this happening in big churches? Because this conversation, I think, becomes a lot conversation, I think, becomes a lot conversation, I think, becomes a lot different if we know, oh yeah, and by different if we know, oh yeah, and by different if we know, oh yeah, and by the way, the outcome for those that the way, the outcome for those that the way, the outcome for those that attend big churches is almost always attend big churches is almost always attend big churches is almost always bad.

bad. bad. >> Then this idea of the asymmetry becomes >> Then this idea of the asymmetry becomes >> Then this idea of the asymmetry becomes like we need to solve this. It's not like we need to solve this. It's not like we need to solve this. It's not like a reality and attention to manage. like a reality and attention to manage. like a reality and attention to manage. So that's going to be next week's So that's going to be next week's So that's going to be next week's episode. Lifeway has a ton of data on episode. Lifeway has a ton of data on episode. Lifeway has a ton of data on that as well that we'll be diving into. that as well that we'll be diving into. that as well that we'll be diving into. So thank you until then for your time, So thank you until then for your time, So thank you until then for your time, attention, [music] and trust. And we'll attention, [music] and trust. And we'll attention, [music] and trust. And we'll talk to you next Wednesday. What are we talk to you next Wednesday. What are we talk to you next Wednesday. What are we doing? [laughter] doing? [laughter] doing? [laughter] What's going on?