Christianity's Decline Over At Last? Here's Proof

For the past 15 years, if you serve in For the past 15 years, if you serve in church, we've all heard the same thing. church, we've all heard the same thing. church, we've all heard the same thing. You know, people just don't believe in You know, people just don't believe in You know, people just don't believe in God like they used to. However, God like they used to. However, God like they used to. However, encouraging new data suggests that this encouraging new data suggests that this encouraging new data suggests that this is finally changing. And it's not just is finally changing. And it's not just is finally changing. And it's not just in America, but more broadly in the West in America, but more broadly in the West in America, but more broadly in the West overall. So, we're here to unpack all of overall. So, we're here to unpack all of overall. So, we're here to unpack all of it for you, including the causes and it for you, including the causes and it for you, including the causes and what we should do to react to it. Let's what we should do to react to it. Let's what we should do to react to it. Let's dive in. dive in. dive in. Well, hey there and welcome to the Well, hey there and welcome to the Well, hey there and welcome to the ProChurch Tool Show. We're here to help ProChurch Tool Show. We're here to help ProChurch Tool Show. We're here to help you and your church navigate the biggest you and your church navigate the biggest you and your church navigate the biggest communication shift in 500 years. I am communication shift in 500 years. I am communication shift in 500 years. I am Brady Sher, your host, and joined as Brady Sher, your host, and joined as Brady Sher, your host, and joined as always by my co-host, the minister of always by my co-host, the minister of always by my co-host, the minister of Monaco. It's Alexander Mills. Hello. Monaco. It's Alexander Mills. Hello. Monaco. It's Alexander Mills. Hello. Hello. And today we're talking about the Hello. And today we're talking about the Hello. And today we're talking about the changing landscape of Christianity. For changing landscape of Christianity. For changing landscape of Christianity. For the first time in a while, we're not the first time in a while, we're not the first time in a while, we're not talking about how things are all talking about how things are all talking about how things are all bad. And I think the place to begin is bad. And I think the place to begin is bad. And I think the place to begin is by contextualizing the previous season by contextualizing the previous season by contextualizing the previous season that we have come through. I was looking that we have come through. I was looking that we have come through. I was looking at the demographics for the YouTube at the demographics for the YouTube at the demographics for the YouTube channel for the ProChurch Tools Show channel for the ProChurch Tools Show channel for the ProChurch Tools Show and roughly three and four of the and roughly three and four of the and roughly three and four of the listeners of this show are within the listeners of this show are within the listeners of this show are within the ages of 25 through 44. Okay? And so what ages of 25 through 44. Okay? And so what ages of 25 through 44. Okay? And so what that means is for those of us that are that means is for those of us that are that means is for those of us that are within that age range, which of course within that age range, which of course within that age range, which of course both of us fall right smack in the both of us fall right smack in the both of us fall right smack in the middle of, we have basically been middle of, we have basically been middle of, we have basically been serving in church for the entirety of serving in church for the entirety of serving in church for the entirety of our adult lives in this landscape where our adult lives in this landscape where our adult lives in this landscape where we have heard it. Oh, just so you know, we have heard it. Oh, just so you know, we have heard it. Oh, just so you know, nobody believes in God anymore. And so, nobody believes in God anymore. And so, nobody believes in God anymore. And so, it's really interesting to think about it's really interesting to think about it's really interesting to think about us coming out of that. Let's just put an us coming out of that. Let's just put an us coming out of that. Let's just put an anchor into the ground and talk about anchor into the ground and talk about anchor into the ground and talk about this previous season, though. Our friend this previous season, though. Our friend this previous season, though. Our friend Ryan Burge, Graphs About Religion,

Ryan Burge, Graphs About Religion, Ryan Burge, Graphs About Religion, coined this season that kind of starts coined this season that kind of starts coined this season that kind of starts around 2008 as the rise of the nuns. The around 2008 as the rise of the nuns. The around 2008 as the rise of the nuns. The nuns being those that have no religious nuns being those that have no religious nuns being those that have no religious affiliation. So that would include both affiliation. So that would include both affiliation. So that would include both atheists and agnostic, right? Or the atheists and agnostic, right? Or the atheists and agnostic, right? Or the none in particular category. So how did none in particular category. So how did none in particular category. So how did 2008 to to 2020 look? Well, in 2008, 2008 to to 2020 look? Well, in 2008, 2008 to to 2020 look? Well, in 2008, about 21% of American adults identified about 21% of American adults identified about 21% of American adults identified as atheist, agnostic, or claiming no as atheist, agnostic, or claiming no as atheist, agnostic, or claiming no religion in particular. That's 2008, religion in particular. That's 2008, religion in particular. That's 2008, 21%. 6 years later, that's 2014, it's 21%. 6 years later, that's 2014, it's 21%. 6 years later, that's 2014, it's now 28%. So that's a large percentage now 28%. So that's a large percentage now 28%. So that's a large percentage point jump in a very short window of point jump in a very short window of point jump in a very short window of time. Fast forward another 6 years, this time. Fast forward another 6 years, this time. Fast forward another 6 years, this is now 2020, and we're all the way up to is now 2020, and we're all the way up to is now 2020, and we're all the way up to 34%. To quote Burge, quote, "The 34%. To quote Burge, quote, "The 34%. To quote Burge, quote, "The nonreligious share of the population was nonreligious share of the population was nonreligious share of the population was growing about as fast as anything in the growing about as fast as anything in the growing about as fast as anything in the world of demography." And I think that world of demography." And I think that world of demography." And I think that quote pretty much encapsulates how quote pretty much encapsulates how quote pretty much encapsulates how turbulent this season was. So, if you turbulent this season was. So, if you turbulent this season was. So, if you are my age, born in ' 91, Alex, born in are my age, born in ' 91, Alex, born in are my age, born in ' 91, Alex, born in 93, we go to Bible college, we're 93, we go to Bible college, we're 93, we go to Bible college, we're entering into ministry, it's, you know, entering into ministry, it's, you know, entering into ministry, it's, you know, 2013, 2011, 2014. And it's like, hm, 2013, 2011, 2014. And it's like, hm, 2013, 2011, 2014. And it's like, hm, well, people don't, it looks like people well, people don't, it looks like people well, people don't, it looks like people are not believing in God as much. Ah, are not believing in God as much. Ah, are not believing in God as much. Ah, it's fine. Like, just a blip. Surely the it's fine. Like, just a blip. Surely the it's fine. Like, just a blip. Surely the tides will turn 6 years later. Oh gosh, tides will turn 6 years later. Oh gosh, tides will turn 6 years later. Oh gosh, really? No one believes in God anymore.

really? No one believes in God anymore. really? No one believes in God anymore. Oh, a pandemic. Okay, maybe that'll lead Oh, a pandemic. Okay, maybe that'll lead Oh, a pandemic. Okay, maybe that'll lead lead us to the Lord. And maybe we'll get lead us to the Lord. And maybe we'll get lead us to the Lord. And maybe we'll get into that a little bit later. So, I into that a little bit later. So, I into that a little bit later. So, I think it's worth reminding and really think it's worth reminding and really think it's worth reminding and really painting this picture of like, yeah, painting this picture of like, yeah, painting this picture of like, yeah, it's been pretty grim out there. And so it's been pretty grim out there. And so it's been pretty grim out there. And so like as we'll get into the tide changing like as we'll get into the tide changing like as we'll get into the tide changing is going to be not just uh welcome is going to be not just uh welcome is going to be not just uh welcome return to maybe how things were before return to maybe how things were before return to maybe how things were before but very very different feeling for but very very different feeling for but very very different feeling for those of us in ministry. Yeah. And you those of us in ministry. Yeah. And you those of us in ministry. Yeah. And you said it uh the the feeling about it is said it uh the the feeling about it is said it uh the the feeling about it is something that a lot of us who grew up something that a lot of us who grew up something that a lot of us who grew up in church or belong to church or work in in church or belong to church or work in in church or belong to church or work in church have felt over the last you know church have felt over the last you know church have felt over the last you know we're talking we're we're looking at we're talking we're we're looking at we're talking we're we're looking at data since 2008. So over the last data since 2008. So over the last data since 2008. So over the last roughly two decades, we've had we've roughly two decades, we've had we've roughly two decades, we've had we've been able to feel this thing we're been able to feel this thing we're been able to feel this thing we're talking about the the increase in in talking about the the increase in in talking about the the increase in in folks basically leaving religion or not folks basically leaving religion or not folks basically leaving religion or not identifying with uh the religion of identifying with uh the religion of identifying with uh the religion of their youth. But um you know so thankful their youth. But um you know so thankful their youth. But um you know so thankful for Ryan and his work. Um Ryan has for Ryan and his work. Um Ryan has for Ryan and his work. Um Ryan has written so extensively on the rise of written so extensively on the rise of written so extensively on the rise of the nuns. He's written a book. Uh we've the nuns. He's written a book. Uh we've the nuns. He's written a book. Uh we've had him on the show multiple times. And had him on the show multiple times. And had him on the show multiple times. And what I love in particular about his what I love in particular about his what I love in particular about his work, you know, he he works with with work, you know, he he works with with work, you know, he he works with with data. He's handling it all day, but he data. He's handling it all day, but he data. He's handling it all day, but he puts it in in a visual medium in these puts it in in a visual medium in these puts it in in a visual medium in these graphs so we can actually see, okay, graphs so we can actually see, okay, graphs so we can actually see, okay, we're feeling this, you and I entering we're feeling this, you and I entering we're feeling this, you and I entering into uh working in churches and and into uh working in churches and and into uh working in churches and and feeling like, oh, is the congregation feeling like, oh, is the congregation feeling like, oh, is the congregation getting smaller every week? Like, am I getting smaller every week? Like, am I getting smaller every week? Like, am I is this just like what's going on here?

is this just like what's going on here? is this just like what's going on here? And so, we have this experience, this And so, we have this experience, this And so, we have this experience, this lived experience, and we feel it. But lived experience, and we feel it. But lived experience, and we feel it. But Ryan is showing it to us um on these Ryan is showing it to us um on these Ryan is showing it to us um on these graphs and saying like yeah what you graphs and saying like yeah what you graphs and saying like yeah what you were feeling over the last um 14 16 18 were feeling over the last um 14 16 18 were feeling over the last um 14 16 18 20 years is empirically true and we can 20 years is empirically true and we can 20 years is empirically true and we can chart it. We can see the rise of the chart it. We can see the rise of the chart it. We can see the rise of the nuns, the rise of folks who are leaving nuns, the rise of folks who are leaving nuns, the rise of folks who are leaving the church who um yeah grew up in church the church who um yeah grew up in church the church who um yeah grew up in church like you and I and who no longer like you and I and who no longer like you and I and who no longer identify with the faith and for folks identify with the faith and for folks identify with the faith and for folks like you and me who have held on to the like you and me who have held on to the like you and me who have held on to the faith and continue to work in church or faith and continue to work in church or faith and continue to work in church or work for for churches. That feeling of work for for churches. That feeling of work for for churches. That feeling of seeing loved ones, seeing um folks we seeing loved ones, seeing um folks we seeing loved ones, seeing um folks we went to school with or whatever fall off went to school with or whatever fall off went to school with or whatever fall off has been like pretty discouraging and to has been like pretty discouraging and to has been like pretty discouraging and to then hold it up against the data be then hold it up against the data be then hold it up against the data be like, "Oh, this is happening like, "Oh, this is happening like, "Oh, this is happening everywhere." It's like you said off the everywhere." It's like you said off the everywhere." It's like you said off the top of the show has been a pretty bleak top of the show has been a pretty bleak top of the show has been a pretty bleak landscape for the last little bit, but landscape for the last little bit, but landscape for the last little bit, but it's possible. Are the tides changing? it's possible. Are the tides changing? it's possible. Are the tides changing? Well, before they can change, they have Well, before they can change, they have Well, before they can change, they have to plateau. And that's what we've kind to plateau. And that's what we've kind to plateau. And that's what we've kind of seen in the last few years. no of seen in the last few years. no of seen in the last few years. no discernable change in the nuns in the discernable change in the nuns in the discernable change in the nuns in the United States in the past 5 years. So United States in the past 5 years. So United States in the past 5 years. So basically kind of like hit this apex and basically kind of like hit this apex and basically kind of like hit this apex and then that apex kind of just curved off then that apex kind of just curved off then that apex kind of just curved off and has been flat. Um if anything there and has been flat. Um if anything there and has been flat. Um if anything there are hints of things moving slowly in the are hints of things moving slowly in the are hints of things moving slowly in the other direction and and I think it's other direction and and I think it's other direction and and I think it's probably worth mentioning at this point probably worth mentioning at this point probably worth mentioning at this point that like that like that like large data sets are encapsulating a lot large data sets are encapsulating a lot large data sets are encapsulating a lot of different demographics from within.

of different demographics from within. of different demographics from within. And so what you see in your region, in And so what you see in your region, in And so what you see in your region, in your town, in your state, like it may your town, in your state, like it may your town, in your state, like it may differ. Sure. And it's not like we're differ. Sure. And it's not like we're differ. Sure. And it's not like we're not still seeing signs of people like not still seeing signs of people like not still seeing signs of people like leaving the faith. This is everything in leaving the faith. This is everything in leaving the faith. This is everything in the aggregate. And so a lot of the times the aggregate. And so a lot of the times the aggregate. And so a lot of the times what we see like in large scale numbers, what we see like in large scale numbers, what we see like in large scale numbers, depending on where you live, that might depending on where you live, that might depending on where you live, that might be actually like where you live might be be actually like where you live might be be actually like where you live might be a lagging indicator of what's happening. a lagging indicator of what's happening. a lagging indicator of what's happening. So you might still see people that are So you might still see people that are So you might still see people that are like ah like you know what if you if like ah like you know what if you if like ah like you know what if you if you're still serving in like um if you you're still serving in like um if you you're still serving in like um if you are serving in a place that's like are serving in a place that's like are serving in a place that's like traditionally very Christian you might traditionally very Christian you might traditionally very Christian you might still for the next few years kind of see still for the next few years kind of see still for the next few years kind of see people that are filtering out but what people that are filtering out but what people that are filtering out but what we're seeing in the aggregate not just we're seeing in the aggregate not just we're seeing in the aggregate not just in the states as we'll get into is in the states as we'll get into is in the states as we'll get into is things starting to at least plateau and things starting to at least plateau and things starting to at least plateau and now the tides turning and that kind of now the tides turning and that kind of now the tides turning and that kind of gets us into this idea of the return of gets us into this idea of the return of gets us into this idea of the return of faith and I wanted to look specifically faith and I wanted to look specifically faith and I wanted to look specifically outside of the states for this data set. outside of the states for this data set. outside of the states for this data set. I don't always like to say, hey, this is I don't always like to say, hey, this is I don't always like to say, hey, this is what's happening in America. What we what's happening in America. What we what's happening in America. What we know about America is that like despite know about America is that like despite know about America is that like despite all of this like changing faith and all of this like changing faith and all of this like changing faith and changing demos is that the country changing demos is that the country changing demos is that the country itself is still like very religious itself is still like very religious itself is still like very religious overall. I think like those that believe overall. I think like those that believe overall. I think like those that believe in the afterlife in America has like in the afterlife in America has like in the afterlife in America has like stayed steady at like four out of five stayed steady at like four out of five stayed steady at like four out of five people for decades after decade after people for decades after decade after people for decades after decade after decade. So like that's not something decade. So like that's not something decade. So like that's not something that's universally true across all that's universally true across all that's universally true across all Western nations. And so despite some of Western nations. And so despite some of Western nations. And so despite some of the changing demos in America like it the changing demos in America like it the changing demos in America like it has stayed very religious relative to it has stayed very religious relative to it has stayed very religious relative to it counterpart countries in the other parts counterpart countries in the other parts counterpart countries in the other parts of the west. So what are we seeing in of the west. So what are we seeing in of the west. So what are we seeing in the UK and I think you can extend this the UK and I think you can extend this the UK and I think you can extend this though we don't have the data to though we don't have the data to though we don't have the data to countries like Australia or Canada those countries like Australia or Canada those countries like Australia or Canada those western nations that are historically western nations that are historically western nations that are historically more secular at least in the past you

more secular at least in the past you more secular at least in the past you know century let's say than America know century let's say than America know century let's say than America itself. So, according to Neielson book itself. So, according to Neielson book itself. So, according to Neielson book scan data, that's right, we've got book scan data, that's right, we've got book scan data, that's right, we've got book data here, people, strap in. It's a wild data here, people, strap in. It's a wild data here, people, strap in. It's a wild ride, UK Bible sales nearly doubled from ride, UK Bible sales nearly doubled from ride, UK Bible sales nearly doubled from 2019 to 2024. Wow. What happened in that 2019 to 2024. Wow. What happened in that 2019 to 2024. Wow. What happened in that time? We'll get to that. To put this in time? We'll get to that. To put this in time? We'll get to that. To put this in context, that is 25 times more growth context, that is 25 times more growth context, that is 25 times more growth than in the 11 years prior. So, 25 times than in the 11 years prior. So, 25 times than in the 11 years prior. So, 25 times more growth in Bible sales in 5 years more growth in Bible sales in 5 years more growth in Bible sales in 5 years when you compare it to the 11 years that when you compare it to the 11 years that when you compare it to the 11 years that came before that. Which Bibles are came before that. Which Bibles are came before that. Which Bibles are selling? selling? selling? King James. Nope. We've got instead Gen King James. Nope. We've got instead Gen King James. Nope. We've got instead Gen Z, the Good News Bible, the youth Z, the Good News Bible, the youth Z, the Good News Bible, the youth edition, has seen sales nearly double edition, has seen sales nearly double edition, has seen sales nearly double since 2021. We're not suggesting that since 2021. We're not suggesting that since 2021. We're not suggesting that this is the only Bible selling, but this is the only Bible selling, but this is the only Bible selling, but simply that, hey, when they looked at simply that, hey, when they looked at simply that, hey, when they looked at it, wow, look at this one. This is it, wow, look at this one. This is it, wow, look at this one. This is seeing a huge jump. Uh, and it's not UK seeing a huge jump. Uh, and it's not UK seeing a huge jump. Uh, and it's not UK only because US Bible sales have seen a only because US Bible sales have seen a only because US Bible sales have seen a 22% uplift in the past year alone with 22% uplift in the past year alone with 22% uplift in the past year alone with publishers reporting more firsttime publishers reporting more firsttime publishers reporting more firsttime buyers than ever. So, this doesn't buyers than ever. So, this doesn't buyers than ever. So, this doesn't simply mean renewed interest from simply mean renewed interest from simply mean renewed interest from Christians buying translations that are Christians buying translations that are Christians buying translations that are novel or different than what they've novel or different than what they've novel or different than what they've previously been into, but rather people previously been into, but rather people previously been into, but rather people that have never purchased scriptures that have never purchased scriptures that have never purchased scriptures before saying, "Hey, maybe there's some before saying, "Hey, maybe there's some before saying, "Hey, maybe there's some wisdom in here that's worth exploring."

wisdom in here that's worth exploring." wisdom in here that's worth exploring." It's an interesting data point to It's an interesting data point to It's an interesting data point to consider. You know, when we talk to Ryan consider. You know, when we talk to Ryan consider. You know, when we talk to Ryan and and refer to Ryan's uh Substack and and and refer to Ryan's uh Substack and and and refer to Ryan's uh Substack and and show his graphs, it's usually about and show his graphs, it's usually about and show his graphs, it's usually about church attendance, um you know, worship church attendance, um you know, worship church attendance, um you know, worship habits, like collective worship habits, habits, like collective worship habits, habits, like collective worship habits, um belief systems. But I'm actually um belief systems. But I'm actually um belief systems. But I'm actually really compelled by this uh data point really compelled by this uh data point really compelled by this uh data point about Bible sales. And it it's twofold. about Bible sales. And it it's twofold. about Bible sales. And it it's twofold. One, because it's something we don't One, because it's something we don't One, because it's something we don't normally consider. And second, because normally consider. And second, because normally consider. And second, because the the Bible, the scriptures are more the the Bible, the scriptures are more the the Bible, the scriptures are more accessible on the phone than ever accessible on the phone than ever accessible on the phone than ever before. And you know, we talk about Gen before. And you know, we talk about Gen before. And you know, we talk about Gen Z as like true real digital natives. Z as like true real digital natives. Z as like true real digital natives. They've never really not had They've never really not had They've never really not had supercomputers in their pockets in a way supercomputers in their pockets in a way supercomputers in their pockets in a way that you and I knew a world before these that you and I knew a world before these that you and I knew a world before these things. And so for hard like like actual things. And so for hard like like actual things. And so for hard like like actual book Bible sales to be skyrocketing and book Bible sales to be skyrocketing and book Bible sales to be skyrocketing and then to see that like oh, one of the then to see that like oh, one of the then to see that like oh, one of the notable ones is targeted towards Gen Z notable ones is targeted towards Gen Z notable ones is targeted towards Gen Z and youth, that's really compelling to and youth, that's really compelling to and youth, that's really compelling to me. uh both as a person on the show but me. uh both as a person on the show but me. uh both as a person on the show but also as a pastor who you know every also as a pastor who you know every also as a pastor who you know every Sunday gets up and say says let's Sunday gets up and say says let's Sunday gets up and say says let's worship God we open up the scripture I worship God we open up the scripture I worship God we open up the scripture I say if you have a Bible go ahead and say if you have a Bible go ahead and say if you have a Bible go ahead and open it up and most people don't do open it up and most people don't do open it up and most people don't do anything at that time because they're anything at that time because they're anything at that time because they're just waiting for the words to come up on just waiting for the words to come up on just waiting for the words to come up on the screen to see physical sales of the screen to see physical sales of the screen to see physical sales of Bibles increasing at this rate in the UK Bibles increasing at this rate in the UK Bibles increasing at this rate in the UK and also in the states and especially and also in the states and especially and also in the states and especially among among young people is really among among young people is really among among young people is really compelling to me maybe next time you can compelling to me maybe next time you can compelling to me maybe next time you can try if you have the Gen Z semicolon the try if you have the Gen Z semicolon the try if you have the Gen Z semicolon the good news Bible- the youth edition Yeah, good news Bible- the youth edition Yeah, good news Bible- the youth edition Yeah, consider opening it up at this time.

consider opening it up at this time. consider opening it up at this time. Let's talk more about Gen Z, the quiet Let's talk more about Gen Z, the quiet Let's talk more about Gen Z, the quiet revival report. This is again coming revival report. This is again coming revival report. This is again coming from the UK. Quote, "The church is in a from the UK. Quote, "The church is in a from the UK. Quote, "The church is in a period of rapid growth driven by young period of rapid growth driven by young period of rapid growth driven by young adults and in particular young men. The adults and in particular young men. The adults and in particular young men. The number of people reporting monthly number of people reporting monthly number of people reporting monthly attendance has risen from 8% in 2018 to attendance has risen from 8% in 2018 to attendance has risen from 8% in 2018 to 12% in 2024. Doesn't sound much when you 12% in 2024. Doesn't sound much when you 12% in 2024. Doesn't sound much when you say four percentage points." Phrased say four percentage points." Phrased say four percentage points." Phrased differently, church attendance has grown differently, church attendance has grown differently, church attendance has grown by 50%. Right. Right. from 8 to 12. by 50%. Right. Right. from 8 to 12. by 50%. Right. Right. from 8 to 12. That's 2018 to 2024 in just 6 years. But That's 2018 to 2024 in just 6 years. But That's 2018 to 2024 in just 6 years. But the most remarkable jump in reported the most remarkable jump in reported the most remarkable jump in reported attendance has been among Gen Z. attendance has been among Gen Z. attendance has been among Gen Z. Quadrupling in that same time period Quadrupling in that same time period Quadrupling in that same time period from 4 to 16%. See, they should have from 4 to 16%. See, they should have from 4 to 16%. See, they should have done that the first time. Like done that the first time. Like done that the first time. Like quadrupling sounds like a lot. 4 to 16. quadrupling sounds like a lot. 4 to 16. quadrupling sounds like a lot. 4 to 16. 8 to 12 doesn't sound like much, but 8 to 12 doesn't sound like much, but 8 to 12 doesn't sound like much, but like church in UK, attendance booming, like church in UK, attendance booming, like church in UK, attendance booming, 50% more numbers. I mean, maybe they 50% more numbers. I mean, maybe they 50% more numbers. I mean, maybe they should have got us on it. Should have, should have got us on it. Should have, should have got us on it. Should have, could have. So, I think the question could have. So, I think the question could have. So, I think the question that came to me as I was looking through that came to me as I was looking through that came to me as I was looking through this is like what is causing this? And I this is like what is causing this? And I this is like what is causing this? And I think there's a conversation to be had think there's a conversation to be had think there's a conversation to be had certainly about Gen Z and the kind of certainly about Gen Z and the kind of certainly about Gen Z and the kind of interesting traits about their age group interesting traits about their age group interesting traits about their age group and how they differ from previous. You and how they differ from previous. You and how they differ from previous. You talked about us as millennials and the talked about us as millennials and the talked about us as millennials and the fact that like social kind of became a fact that like social kind of became a fact that like social kind of became a thing when we were like 16, 17. Our thing when we were like 16, 17. Our thing when we were like 16, 17. Our first phones were like flip phones and first phones were like flip phones and first phones were like flip phones and we could text but that was it. And then we could text but that was it. And then we could text but that was it. And then like you could send a photo and now it's like you could send a photo and now it's like you could send a photo and now it's like computers in the pocket. And we like computers in the pocket. And we like computers in the pocket. And we kind of like split the analog and kind of like split the analog and kind of like split the analog and digital revolution. And you know I grew digital revolution. And you know I grew digital revolution. And you know I grew up with a literal rotary phone. We had up with a literal rotary phone. We had up with a literal rotary phone. We had to like twirl the numbers. Um strangely

to like twirl the numbers. Um strangely to like twirl the numbers. Um strangely enough Gen Z not so much in terms of enough Gen Z not so much in terms of enough Gen Z not so much in terms of behavioral. What we see with them is behavioral. What we see with them is behavioral. What we see with them is like they're not getting involved with like they're not getting involved with like they're not getting involved with substances at all. No drinking, no substances at all. No drinking, no substances at all. No drinking, no drugs. They're not engaging in like drugs. They're not engaging in like drugs. They're not engaging in like intimacy with their partners. They're intimacy with their partners. They're intimacy with their partners. They're not really dating at all. They're not not really dating at all. They're not not really dating at all. They're not really going out at all. And the really going out at all. And the really going out at all. And the positive of that is that like our positive of that is that like our positive of that is that like our parents were like, "Look, son, I smoked parents were like, "Look, son, I smoked parents were like, "Look, son, I smoked a lot of insert here and I did a lot of a lot of insert here and I did a lot of a lot of insert here and I did a lot of this with other boys." Yeah. As a this with other boys." Yeah. As a this with other boys." Yeah. As a mother, don't do that. Like, okay, mom. mother, don't do that. Like, okay, mom. mother, don't do that. Like, okay, mom. And and like that doesn't seem to be And and like that doesn't seem to be And and like that doesn't seem to be really much of a concern with Gen Z. really much of a concern with Gen Z. really much of a concern with Gen Z. what they're experiencing is like, "Wow, what they're experiencing is like, "Wow, what they're experiencing is like, "Wow, I have supreme anxiety and my future I have supreme anxiety and my future I have supreme anxiety and my future looks extremely bleak and what's the looks extremely bleak and what's the looks extremely bleak and what's the point?" And there's this like point?" And there's this like point?" And there's this like existential dread and well, what aligns existential dread and well, what aligns existential dread and well, what aligns better with like those two like better with like those two like better with like those two like dispositions in life? One, stop doing dispositions in life? One, stop doing dispositions in life? One, stop doing fun things. Oh, I like this message from fun things. Oh, I like this message from fun things. Oh, I like this message from the church versus you are lonely, the church versus you are lonely, the church versus you are lonely, depressed, and have no future. What if I depressed, and have no future. What if I depressed, and have no future. What if I told you that there is a future for you?

told you that there is a future for you? told you that there is a future for you? What if I told you that like you are What if I told you that like you are What if I told you that like you are purposely made? What if I told you that purposely made? What if I told you that purposely made? What if I told you that despite how things feel right now, there despite how things feel right now, there despite how things feel right now, there is a higher power called Jesus that has is a higher power called Jesus that has is a higher power called Jesus that has like future for you and meaning and like future for you and meaning and like future for you and meaning and purpose and maybe something that you purpose and maybe something that you purpose and maybe something that you really lack, which is belonging in the really lack, which is belonging in the really lack, which is belonging in the context of a local church. I think that context of a local church. I think that context of a local church. I think that like the church is uniquely positioned like the church is uniquely positioned like the church is uniquely positioned amongst institutions in culture to meet amongst institutions in culture to meet amongst institutions in culture to meet that need that is it seems right now that need that is it seems right now that need that is it seems right now being left unmet. Totally. Gen Z is being left unmet. Totally. Gen Z is being left unmet. Totally. Gen Z is they're craving spirituality. We see they're craving spirituality. We see they're craving spirituality. We see this again. You can prove this with this again. You can prove this with this again. You can prove this with data. Ryan's done that. But for anyone data. Ryan's done that. But for anyone data. Ryan's done that. But for anyone who works in a church or serves in a who works in a church or serves in a who works in a church or serves in a church or frankly anyone who knows church or frankly anyone who knows church or frankly anyone who knows someone from Gen Z, whether you have someone from Gen Z, whether you have someone from Gen Z, whether you have niece or nephews or kids or friends, niece or nephews or kids or friends, niece or nephews or kids or friends, whatever it is, you can sense that like whatever it is, you can sense that like whatever it is, you can sense that like they are um demystified by the this is they are um demystified by the this is they are um demystified by the this is my opinion now. I think they've become my opinion now. I think they've become my opinion now. I think they've become um demystified or um disenchanted by the um demystified or um disenchanted by the um demystified or um disenchanted by the digital devices and they're just looking digital devices and they're just looking digital devices and they're just looking for something bigger than whatever story for something bigger than whatever story for something bigger than whatever story the the social landscape online is the the social landscape online is the the social landscape online is telling them and they're craving telling them and they're craving telling them and they're craving spirituality. We see this in our church spirituality. We see this in our church spirituality. We see this in our church in our relationship with our youth. Like in our relationship with our youth. Like in our relationship with our youth. Like these kids just want to talk about these kids just want to talk about these kids just want to talk about spiritual things. They are asking really spiritual things. They are asking really spiritual things. They are asking really smart questions. They are reading their smart questions. They are reading their smart questions. They are reading their Bibles. are buying their Bibles in a way Bibles. are buying their Bibles in a way Bibles. are buying their Bibles in a way that like that like that like that in a way that that the generation that in a way that that the generation that in a way that that the generation before them did not. And I'm not I'm before them did not. And I'm not I'm before them did not. And I'm not I'm sure there are many reasons for that, sure there are many reasons for that, sure there are many reasons for that, but we can see both empirically and

but we can see both empirically and but we can see both empirically and experientially that Jenzie is just experientially that Jenzie is just experientially that Jenzie is just they're craving spiritual things. And so they're craving spiritual things. And so they're craving spiritual things. And so you see this reflected in your churches you see this reflected in your churches you see this reflected in your churches in your experience with those kids and in your experience with those kids and in your experience with those kids and in the numbers. And that is so in the numbers. And that is so in the numbers. And that is so encouraging to me. And that's not only encouraging to me. And that's not only encouraging to me. And that's not only something that's happening in the UK. something that's happening in the UK. something that's happening in the UK. That's something that we can chart kind That's something that we can chart kind That's something that we can chart kind of across the map and see like yes, of across the map and see like yes, of across the map and see like yes, Jenzie wants something that is alive, Jenzie wants something that is alive, Jenzie wants something that is alive, something that gives them hope, something that gives them hope, something that gives them hope, something that gives them purpose, like something that gives them purpose, like something that gives them purpose, like you said, something that can speak to you said, something that can speak to you said, something that can speak to their anxiety, to their depression, to their anxiety, to their depression, to their anxiety, to their depression, to the the the the feelings of of longing the the the the feelings of of longing the the the the feelings of of longing for belonging. And the church is so for belonging. And the church is so for belonging. And the church is so uniquely positioned to tell that story, uniquely positioned to tell that story, uniquely positioned to tell that story, to tell a better story, and to be the to tell a better story, and to be the to tell a better story, and to be the bomb uh to soothe, you know, the pain bomb uh to soothe, you know, the pain bomb uh to soothe, you know, the pain that they're feeling. And so it's that they're feeling. And so it's that they're feeling. And so it's it's the picture that's been painted of it's the picture that's been painted of it's the picture that's been painted of religion, not just in America, but the religion, not just in America, but the religion, not just in America, but the Christian religion globally has been so Christian religion globally has been so Christian religion globally has been so bleak for the last 10 or 20 years. Like, bleak for the last 10 or 20 years. Like, bleak for the last 10 or 20 years. Like, oh, you know, people just they don't go oh, you know, people just they don't go oh, you know, people just they don't go to church like they used to. They don't to church like they used to. They don't to church like they used to. They don't read their Bible like they used to. The read their Bible like they used to. The read their Bible like they used to. The Bible's not in school. um you know in Bible's not in school. um you know in Bible's not in school. um you know in insert um phrase here but I'm feeling insert um phrase here but I'm feeling insert um phrase here but I'm feeling this like ground swell of hope and it's this like ground swell of hope and it's this like ground swell of hope and it's being driven by frankly the behavior of being driven by frankly the behavior of being driven by frankly the behavior of Gen Z what they are saying what they're Gen Z what they are saying what they're Gen Z what they are saying what they're asking and what they're doing and we see asking and what they're doing and we see asking and what they're doing and we see it in the in the data and that's really it in the in the data and that's really it in the in the data and that's really encouraging to me so what else might be encouraging to me so what else might be encouraging to me so what else might be causing this three things that I wrote causing this three things that I wrote causing this three things that I wrote down the first is what stood out to me down the first is what stood out to me down the first is what stood out to me in all the numbers of this data was like in all the numbers of this data was like in all the numbers of this data was like hm co sure sure seems to have like hm co sure sure seems to have like hm co sure sure seems to have like spurred on some change and see some some spurred on some change and see some some spurred on some change and see some some some spikes or some some trends. Oh, bad

some spikes or some some trends. Oh, bad some spikes or some some trends. Oh, bad bad bad 2019 hit. Oh, you know, maybe bad bad 2019 hit. Oh, you know, maybe bad bad 2019 hit. Oh, you know, maybe God is real cuz like what else do I have God is real cuz like what else do I have God is real cuz like what else do I have going on right now? I need God to be going on right now? I need God to be going on right now? I need God to be real. So, we all grew out our hair like real. So, we all grew out our hair like real. So, we all grew out our hair like improved our skin care and was like, improved our skin care and was like, improved our skin care and was like, Lord, please can you hear me? Cuz it's Lord, please can you hear me? Cuz it's Lord, please can you hear me? Cuz it's tough. It's tough out here. And and tough. It's tough out here. And and tough. It's tough out here. And and that, you know, is that causation? Is that, you know, is that causation? Is that, you know, is that causation? Is that correlation? I I think I would lean that correlation? I I think I would lean that correlation? I I think I would lean that's causation. Um what's also true is that's causation. Um what's also true is that's causation. Um what's also true is like prior to co you know us millennials like prior to co you know us millennials like prior to co you know us millennials like yeah there was the 2008 market like yeah there was the 2008 market like yeah there was the 2008 market crash but like the world hasn't known crash but like the world hasn't known crash but like the world hasn't known war the way the way it did in previous war the way the way it did in previous war the way the way it did in previous decades you know and like the American decades you know and like the American decades you know and like the American church was really formed during some church was really formed during some church was really formed during some very turbulent periods you know and and very turbulent periods you know and and very turbulent periods you know and and we kind of know that like when things we kind of know that like when things we kind of know that like when things are tough you tend to like man like are tough you tend to like man like are tough you tend to like man like there's got to be something more to this there's got to be something more to this there's got to be something more to this and we look upward um or outward and so and we look upward um or outward and so and we look upward um or outward and so like when things are like really really like when things are like really really like when things are like really really good what we know is like God I I don't good what we know is like God I I don't good what we know is like God I I don't really need you cuz like we are gods really need you cuz like we are gods really need you cuz like we are gods ourselves like we are so um prosperous ourselves like we are so um prosperous ourselves like we are so um prosperous that like you're kind of like we we've that like you're kind of like we we've that like you're kind of like we we've evolved beyond you you know even Maslo's evolved beyond you you know even Maslo's evolved beyond you you know even Maslo's hierarchy of needs is like you know hierarchy of needs is like you know hierarchy of needs is like you know we're all the way up here like we can we're all the way up here like we can we're all the way up here like we can like conceptualize ourselves out of like conceptualize ourselves out of like conceptualize ourselves out of faith because we're just so prosperous faith because we're just so prosperous faith because we're just so prosperous up here. So something bad happens like up here. So something bad happens like up here. So something bad happens like co and it changes our perspective on co and it changes our perspective on co and it changes our perspective on things. I think that plays a big role.

things. I think that plays a big role. things. I think that plays a big role. Uh what we're also seeing is and we Uh what we're also seeing is and we Uh what we're also seeing is and we talked about this in our last episode talked about this in our last episode talked about this in our last episode with Ryan is men and young men in with Ryan is men and young men in with Ryan is men and young men in particular perhaps for the first time in particular perhaps for the first time in particular perhaps for the first time in a while being more religious than their a while being more religious than their a while being more religious than their female counterparts and how young men female counterparts and how young men female counterparts and how young men returning to church is a part of it. And returning to church is a part of it. And returning to church is a part of it. And I think then we also would be remiss to I think then we also would be remiss to I think then we also would be remiss to not mention politics and the kind of not mention politics and the kind of not mention politics and the kind of spearheads and you know influential spearheads and you know influential spearheads and you know influential characters whether it's a Trump or a characters whether it's a Trump or a characters whether it's a Trump or a Rogan who like are somehow intertwined Rogan who like are somehow intertwined Rogan who like are somehow intertwined with faith. Like I I wouldn't look at with faith. Like I I wouldn't look at with faith. Like I I wouldn't look at you know some of these men and say like you know some of these men and say like you know some of these men and say like wow like fruit of the spirit I don't see wow like fruit of the spirit I don't see wow like fruit of the spirit I don't see that myself but then they would also in that myself but then they would also in that myself but then they would also in their word say I stand for these things their word say I stand for these things their word say I stand for these things whereas previous politicians or previous whereas previous politicians or previous whereas previous politicians or previous influence influential um forces have influence influential um forces have influence influential um forces have very much distanced themselves from very much distanced themselves from very much distanced themselves from faith and so you know faith and so you know faith and so you know what level of genuiness authenticity is what level of genuiness authenticity is what level of genuiness authenticity is there it's not really for me to say uh there it's not really for me to say uh there it's not really for me to say uh but they're aligned in that same sphere but they're aligned in that same sphere but they're aligned in that same sphere here where they're like ah this person here where they're like ah this person here where they're like ah this person is like of this faith in the same in the is like of this faith in the same in the is like of this faith in the same in the way where like cultural Christianity way where like cultural Christianity way where like cultural Christianity really kind of like lost its propulsion really kind of like lost its propulsion really kind of like lost its propulsion in America and like there's this in America and like there's this in America and like there's this cultural Christianity element that's cultural Christianity element that's cultural Christianity element that's returning you know in a bit and we know returning you know in a bit and we know returning you know in a bit and we know that religion religious practice is that religion religious practice is that religion religious practice is downstream of political identity we can downstream of political identity we can downstream of political identity we can see that again like we're we're just see that again like we're we're just see that again like we're we're just we're we're pointing back to Ryan Burge we're we're pointing back to Ryan Burge we're we're pointing back to Ryan Burge often in this episode and it's because often in this episode and it's because often in this episode and it's because like he handles this data so so well and like he handles this data so so well and like he handles this data so so well and he presents it in a way that's like he presents it in a way that's like he presents it in a way that's like really easy to digest and frankly like really easy to digest and frankly like really easy to digest and frankly like really helpful for the work that we do.

really helpful for the work that we do. really helpful for the work that we do. Um, but I remember what one of one of Um, but I remember what one of one of Um, but I remember what one of one of Ryan's pieces was like really helpful to Ryan's pieces was like really helpful to Ryan's pieces was like really helpful to me personally as a pastor to visualize me personally as a pastor to visualize me personally as a pastor to visualize that oh folks religious behavior, what that oh folks religious behavior, what that oh folks religious behavior, what church they choose to attend and how church they choose to attend and how church they choose to attend and how they choose to engage with that church they choose to engage with that church they choose to engage with that church actually comes downstream of their actually comes downstream of their actually comes downstream of their political identity. And that was really political identity. And that was really political identity. And that was really helpful for me to conceptualize as a helpful for me to conceptualize as a helpful for me to conceptualize as a pastor to point put my finger on on some pastor to point put my finger on on some pastor to point put my finger on on some things that that was going on in the things that that was going on in the things that that was going on in the church, some things going on in culture church, some things going on in culture church, some things going on in culture and be like, "Oh, this makes a lot more and be like, "Oh, this makes a lot more and be like, "Oh, this makes a lot more sense." When I recognize that like it's sense." When I recognize that like it's sense." When I recognize that like it's not religion that is informing our our not religion that is informing our our not religion that is informing our our politics like uh generally, but it's our politics like uh generally, but it's our politics like uh generally, but it's our political identity that is that that our political identity that is that that our political identity that is that that our religion is downstream of that. It's religion is downstream of that. It's religion is downstream of that. It's being informed by our political being informed by our political being informed by our political identity. So surely that's like the the identity. So surely that's like the the identity. So surely that's like the the polarization of now now we're back to polarization of now now we're back to polarization of now now we're back to America, right? the the polarization of America, right? the the polarization of America, right? the the polarization of American politics and now you and I are American politics and now you and I are American politics and now you and I are experiencing here in Canada. The experiencing here in Canada. The experiencing here in Canada. The polarization right now in the midst of polarization right now in the midst of polarization right now in the midst of this federal election is is this federal election is is this federal election is is unprecedented in my lifetime, in my unprecedented in my lifetime, in my unprecedented in my lifetime, in my experience as as a Canadian, as a voter. experience as as a Canadian, as a voter. experience as as a Canadian, as a voter. And so the the the boundary lines, the And so the the the boundary lines, the And so the the the boundary lines, the the lines in the sand that folks are the lines in the sand that folks are the lines in the sand that folks are drawing for themselves as as it relates drawing for themselves as as it relates drawing for themselves as as it relates to their political identity are are to their political identity are are to their political identity are are becoming a lot more defined as politics becoming a lot more defined as politics becoming a lot more defined as politics becomes more polarized. It's like, okay, becomes more polarized. It's like, okay, becomes more polarized. It's like, okay, well, like I got to double down here well, like I got to double down here well, like I got to double down here because the other side is is becoming because the other side is is becoming because the other side is is becoming more boisterous here. And that informs more boisterous here. And that informs more boisterous here. And that informs our our religious behavior, what what um our our religious behavior, what what um our our religious behavior, what what um Christian tribe we align ourselves with.

Christian tribe we align ourselves with. Christian tribe we align ourselves with. So certainly I really do think in in the So certainly I really do think in in the So certainly I really do think in in the last I mean we can point at some of last I mean we can point at some of last I mean we can point at some of these these data points and and see the these these data points and and see the these these data points and and see the 2016 election in America, the 2024 2016 election in America, the 2024 2016 election in America, the 2024 election in America and see like yeah election in America and see like yeah election in America and see like yeah like politics has certainly been a big like politics has certainly been a big like politics has certainly been a big driver of some of these some of these driver of some of these some of these driver of some of these some of these conclusions we're drawing from this data conclusions we're drawing from this data conclusions we're drawing from this data set. So we talked about where we came set. So we talked about where we came set. So we talked about where we came from the plateau where things are headed from the plateau where things are headed from the plateau where things are headed now the cause. Final thing to hit on is now the cause. Final thing to hit on is now the cause. Final thing to hit on is okay so what are we as the church going okay so what are we as the church going okay so what are we as the church going to do about it? The first to do about it? The first to do about it? The first thing hearkens back to how we started thing hearkens back to how we started thing hearkens back to how we started this episode and those that are in that this episode and those that are in that this episode and those that are in that 25 to 44 year old demographic serving in 25 to 44 year old demographic serving in 25 to 44 year old demographic serving in one season of culture. If we're coming one season of culture. If we're coming one season of culture. If we're coming out of that season, it's important to out of that season, it's important to out of that season, it's important to not treat people the same way or not not treat people the same way or not not treat people the same way or not have the default position where you have the default position where you have the default position where you expect them to be the same way. Now, expect them to be the same way. Now, expect them to be the same way. Now, this doesn't mean that like you're going this doesn't mean that like you're going this doesn't mean that like you're going to see a 180. That's not how these types to see a 180. That's not how these types to see a 180. That's not how these types of shifts happen. and they happen of shifts happen. and they happen of shifts happen. and they happen gradually and then all at once. It's gradually and then all at once. It's gradually and then all at once. It's like oh like feels like maybe people are like oh like feels like maybe people are like oh like feels like maybe people are not attending church at month as much not attending church at month as much not attending church at month as much anymore and then suddenly it's like oh anymore and then suddenly it's like oh anymore and then suddenly it's like oh my gosh nobody goes to church. So the my gosh nobody goes to church. So the my gosh nobody goes to church. So the same thing would happen here this same thing would happen here this same thing would happen here this gradually and then like oh we're we're gradually and then like oh we're we're gradually and then like oh we're we're in this new era. And so it's probably in this new era. And so it's probably in this new era. And so it's probably useful to just start thinking about useful to just start thinking about useful to just start thinking about people differently and and not just people differently and and not just people differently and and not just assume that people will be maybe assume that people will be maybe assume that people will be maybe antagonistic towards faith in the way antagonistic towards faith in the way antagonistic towards faith in the way that like at least for me was a very that like at least for me was a very that like at least for me was a very common experience. Yeah. in the past 15 common experience. Yeah. in the past 15 common experience. Yeah. in the past 15 years, perhaps they're going to be more years, perhaps they're going to be more years, perhaps they're going to be more open and like you don't always have to open and like you don't always have to open and like you don't always have to start on your back foot. And and how

start on your back foot. And and how start on your back foot. And and how does that maybe change programming in does that maybe change programming in does that maybe change programming in church? You know, like the seeker church? You know, like the seeker church? You know, like the seeker sensitive church movement really came sensitive church movement really came sensitive church movement really came out of a season where like, man, nobody out of a season where like, man, nobody out of a season where like, man, nobody seems interested in church. Like how do seems interested in church. Like how do seems interested in church. Like how do we get them to at least like open their we get them to at least like open their we get them to at least like open their mind to faith? Like, okay, like let's mind to faith? Like, okay, like let's mind to faith? Like, okay, like let's demonstrate like this thing that is kind demonstrate like this thing that is kind demonstrate like this thing that is kind of in their wheelhouse and then we can of in their wheelhouse and then we can of in their wheelhouse and then we can kind of link that to like, well, we're kind of link that to like, well, we're kind of link that to like, well, we're motivated in this way because of this. motivated in this way because of this. motivated in this way because of this. And and that's like opening your worship And and that's like opening your worship And and that's like opening your worship set with a secular song. Sure. Yeah. set with a secular song. Sure. Yeah. set with a secular song. Sure. Yeah. That was always strange. I also don't That was always strange. I also don't That was always strange. I also don't think that like happened as much as like think that like happened as much as like think that like happened as much as like like Okay. Yeah. Yeah. We get it. like Okay. Yeah. Yeah. We get it. like Okay. Yeah. Yeah. We get it. Newspring did Highway to Hell one time Newspring did Highway to Hell one time Newspring did Highway to Hell one time on like Good Friday. I was like every on like Good Friday. I was like every on like Good Friday. I was like every every other song is You Too The Streets every other song is You Too The Streets every other song is You Too The Streets Have No Name. Well, that's not a worship Have No Name. Well, that's not a worship Have No Name. Well, that's not a worship song. Okay. Like I I don't know. Maybe song. Okay. Like I I don't know. Maybe song. Okay. Like I I don't know. Maybe I'm wrong. I that I don't think I've I'm wrong. I that I don't think I've I'm wrong. I that I don't think I've ever been in a church service that had a ever been in a church service that had a ever been in a church service that had a secular song unless it was like, you secular song unless it was like, you secular song unless it was like, you know, a non church. Anyway, the point know, a non church. Anyway, the point know, a non church. Anyway, the point is being aware of this season or at is being aware of this season or at is being aware of this season or at least being aware of the shifting tides, least being aware of the shifting tides, least being aware of the shifting tides, which brings me into my next water which brings me into my next water which brings me into my next water metaphor, which is to ride the wave. We metaphor, which is to ride the wave. We metaphor, which is to ride the wave. We always say this in terms of like social always say this in terms of like social always say this in terms of like social media trends or design trends like or media trends or design trends like or media trends or design trends like or just like certain like ground swells of just like certain like ground swells of just like certain like ground swells of like this is the thing that we're doing like this is the thing that we're doing like this is the thing that we're doing now. It's like you can try to fight it, now. It's like you can try to fight it, now. It's like you can try to fight it, but you'll probably just get knocked but you'll probably just get knocked but you'll probably just get knocked over. A big enough wave is going to come over. A big enough wave is going to come over. A big enough wave is going to come over, it's going to knock you over. The over, it's going to knock you over. The over, it's going to knock you over. The better approach is to ride the wave.

better approach is to ride the wave. better approach is to ride the wave. We've done that serving in this previous We've done that serving in this previous We've done that serving in this previous season. Like we didn't choose to be born season. Like we didn't choose to be born season. Like we didn't choose to be born in the '9s, early 90s. We were so we in the '9s, early 90s. We were so we in the '9s, early 90s. We were so we entered ministry at this time. Okay, entered ministry at this time. Okay, entered ministry at this time. Okay, great. This is the landscape of faith. great. This is the landscape of faith. great. This is the landscape of faith. I'm here to serve. I'm not in control of I'm here to serve. I'm not in control of I'm here to serve. I'm not in control of this landscape. I'm here to be a small this landscape. I'm here to be a small this landscape. I'm here to be a small little worker in the overall landscape. little worker in the overall landscape. little worker in the overall landscape. So, how can I bring more heaven to earth So, how can I bring more heaven to earth So, how can I bring more heaven to earth based on what we're in right now? If based on what we're in right now? If based on what we're in right now? If things are changing, then like let's things are changing, then like let's things are changing, then like let's ride that wave. Okay, people are more ride that wave. Okay, people are more ride that wave. Okay, people are more open to faith. How does that affect open to faith. How does that affect open to faith. How does that affect programming? How does that affect programming? How does that affect programming? How does that affect conversations? How does that affect my conversations? How does that affect my conversations? How does that affect my approach to, you know, everyday life? approach to, you know, everyday life? approach to, you know, everyday life? Yeah, be aware. Ride the wave. Next, Yeah, be aware. Ride the wave. Next, Yeah, be aware. Ride the wave. Next, let's create more crossover let's create more crossover let's create more crossover opportunities. And crossover opportunities. And crossover opportunities. And crossover opportunities would just be the opportunities would just be the opportunities would just be the expression tactically of this idea of expression tactically of this idea of expression tactically of this idea of riding the wave. Let me give an example. riding the wave. Let me give an example. riding the wave. Let me give an example. So, there is a church that is very close So, there is a church that is very close So, there is a church that is very close to our office and I was talking with to our office and I was talking with to our office and I was talking with someone who lives in that neighborhood someone who lives in that neighborhood someone who lives in that neighborhood yesterday. This person, despite living yesterday. This person, despite living yesterday. This person, despite living close to our office, is not a person of close to our office, is not a person of close to our office, is not a person of faith. And they were saying how well we faith. And they were saying how well we faith. And they were saying how well we were talking about the federal election were talking about the federal election were talking about the federal election for Canada. I know this is huge. This is for Canada. I know this is huge. This is for Canada. I know this is huge. This is important. All the everyone listening important. All the everyone listening important. All the everyone listening outside of Canada, this is like top of outside of Canada, this is like top of outside of Canada, this is like top of mind. And I said, well, I did early mind. And I said, well, I did early mind. And I said, well, I did early voting because I was like, I did not voting because I was like, I did not voting because I was like, I did not want to go on the one day with the kids.

want to go on the one day with the kids. want to go on the one day with the kids. Going to be a whole big thing. So, we Going to be a whole big thing. So, we Going to be a whole big thing. So, we did early voting. So, we hung out on did early voting. So, we hung out on did early voting. So, we hung out on Monday uh and we all were together as a Monday uh and we all were together as a Monday uh and we all were together as a friend group and then we went and voted friend group and then we went and voted friend group and then we went and voted afterwards. Okay. And he's like, "Well, afterwards. Okay. And he's like, "Well, afterwards. Okay. And he's like, "Well, I'm not going to do early voting. I'd I'm not going to do early voting. I'd I'm not going to do early voting. I'd love to, but I can't." I was like, love to, but I can't." I was like, love to, but I can't." I was like, "Why?" He's like, "Because my voting "Why?" He's like, "Because my voting "Why?" He's like, "Because my voting station is the church across the street. station is the church across the street. station is the church across the street. And before it was a church, it was a And before it was a church, it was a And before it was a church, it was a restaurant. And before it was a restaurant. And before it was a restaurant. And before it was a restaurant, it was a comedy club. And I restaurant, it was a comedy club. And I restaurant, it was a comedy club. And I got to see what it's in like what what got to see what it's in like what what got to see what it's in like what what is it?" I was like, "Well, your your is it?" I was like, "Well, your your is it?" I was like, "Well, your your early voting is not the same as your early voting is not the same as your early voting is not the same as your live day." He's like, "No, no, they're live day." He's like, "No, no, they're live day." He's like, "No, no, they're different places." I was like, "Oh, well different places." I was like, "Oh, well different places." I was like, "Oh, well mine's a holiday in no matter what." So, mine's a holiday in no matter what." So, mine's a holiday in no matter what." So, so I was like, "Why do you care so much so I was like, "Why do you care so much so I was like, "Why do you care so much about this like this church?" He's like, about this like this church?" He's like, about this like this church?" He's like, "Well, aside from like the interest of "Well, aside from like the interest of "Well, aside from like the interest of like how have they like redone the like how have they like redone the like how have they like redone the space?" He's like, "I have seen this space?" He's like, "I have seen this space?" He's like, "I have seen this church cleaning up our neighborhood like church cleaning up our neighborhood like church cleaning up our neighborhood like the park. They have dropped roses at our the park. They have dropped roses at our the park. They have dropped roses at our doorstep before and they've just been doorstep before and they've just been doorstep before and they've just been like, "Hey, we're this church down the like, "Hey, we're this church down the like, "Hey, we're this church down the street. We just want you to know like we street. We just want you to know like we street. We just want you to know like we were praying about you and your family." were praying about you and your family." were praying about you and your family." It's like nothing pushy. It was just It's like nothing pushy. It was just It's like nothing pushy. It was just like letting He's like every Wednesday like letting He's like every Wednesday like letting He's like every Wednesday they have like free coffee. Like just go they have like free coffee. Like just go they have like free coffee. Like just go in and get coffee. And this man, not a in and get coffee. And this man, not a in and get coffee. And this man, not a person of faith, was speaking glowingly person of faith, was speaking glowingly person of faith, was speaking glowingly of this church because of all the good of this church because of all the good of this church because of all the good that the church had done in the that the church had done in the that the church had done in the community. This is a small neighborhood.

community. This is a small neighborhood. community. This is a small neighborhood. This is a small church. And this church This is a small church. And this church This is a small church. And this church has clearly, at least based on their has clearly, at least based on their has clearly, at least based on their actions, I do not know a single person actions, I do not know a single person actions, I do not know a single person there, was like, "Hey, this is who we there, was like, "Hey, this is who we there, was like, "Hey, this is who we serve and we just want everyone that's serve and we just want everyone that's serve and we just want everyone that's like on this street and that street and like on this street and that street and like on this street and that street and that street to know we exist. Are they that street to know we exist. Are they that street to know we exist. Are they going to come? Probably not. But we want going to come? Probably not. But we want going to come? Probably not. But we want to be a beacon of positivity and hope to be a beacon of positivity and hope to be a beacon of positivity and hope and goodness in this place." And I and goodness in this place." And I and goodness in this place." And I thought to myself, you know what that thought to myself, you know what that thought to myself, you know what that does? That creates willingness to go to does? That creates willingness to go to does? That creates willingness to go to the church for maybe voting one time or the church for maybe voting one time or the church for maybe voting one time or you get invited one time. It creates an you get invited one time. It creates an you get invited one time. It creates an openness and a willingness that if that openness and a willingness that if that openness and a willingness that if that already exists in just like the already exists in just like the already exists in just like the spiritual overall, if the disposition is spiritual overall, if the disposition is spiritual overall, if the disposition is like openness instead of closed offness like openness instead of closed offness like openness instead of closed offness from the previous season, if we can as from the previous season, if we can as from the previous season, if we can as churches demonstrate to the community we churches demonstrate to the community we churches demonstrate to the community we are places that care and are anchored are places that care and are anchored are places that care and are anchored and rooted in this place, that makes it and rooted in this place, that makes it and rooted in this place, that makes it even more likely that more people are even more likely that more people are even more likely that more people are going to hearken the doorstep as it were going to hearken the doorstep as it were going to hearken the doorstep as it were and perhaps visit us in person. Yeah, and perhaps visit us in person. Yeah, and perhaps visit us in person. Yeah, that's so good. And then finally, that's so good. And then finally, that's so good. And then finally, understanding the people that you are understanding the people that you are understanding the people that you are trying to reach. I recently completed trying to reach. I recently completed trying to reach. I recently completed the logo and branding module for the logo and branding module for the logo and branding module for ProChurch Certified. And one of the ProChurch Certified. And one of the ProChurch Certified. And one of the things that we tackled in that module things that we tackled in that module things that we tackled in that module was audience personas where we have was audience personas where we have was audience personas where we have churches kind of go through the exercise churches kind of go through the exercise churches kind of go through the exercise of writing down the four different kind of writing down the four different kind of writing down the four different kind of primary audience personas of a church of primary audience personas of a church of primary audience personas of a church and we give them fun alliterated names and we give them fun alliterated names and we give them fun alliterated names so that they're easy to remember. And so that they're easy to remember. And so that they're easy to remember. And the reason that this exercise is so the reason that this exercise is so the reason that this exercise is so powerful is that I I said like, "Hey, powerful is that I I said like, "Hey, powerful is that I I said like, "Hey, write this down based on a real person write this down based on a real person write this down based on a real person you know." When you put it in your brand you know." When you put it in your brand you know." When you put it in your brand guide, don't use their likeness and

guide, don't use their likeness and guide, don't use their likeness and don't use their name, but I want you to don't use their name, but I want you to don't use their name, but I want you to base it on a real person you know. So, I base it on a real person you know. So, I base it on a real person you know. So, I was just talking about this person and was just talking about this person and was just talking about this person and their experience with this church. Okay? their experience with this church. Okay? their experience with this church. Okay? Like, I could base an audience persona Like, I could base an audience persona Like, I could base an audience persona off that person. Okay? This person's off that person. Okay? This person's off that person. Okay? This person's name is blank blank. Again, a fun name is blank blank. Again, a fun name is blank blank. Again, a fun alliterated name. In the brain guide, we alliterated name. In the brain guide, we alliterated name. In the brain guide, we called the person that was, you know, called the person that was, you know, called the person that was, you know, far from faith uh far away Fiona. Nice. far from faith uh far away Fiona. Nice. far from faith uh far away Fiona. Nice. far away Frank, far away Fabio. I said, far away Frank, far away Fabio. I said, far away Frank, far away Fabio. I said, right, I said you could change it up right, I said you could change it up right, I said you could change it up based on your demographics. So, it's based on your demographics. So, it's based on your demographics. So, it's like far away Fiona is this. And I like far away Fiona is this. And I like far away Fiona is this. And I talked about all the things that were talked about all the things that were talked about all the things that were unique to her. And I said, the next time unique to her. And I said, the next time unique to her. And I said, the next time you have a conversation amongst you have a conversation amongst you have a conversation amongst leadership about programming, about leadership about programming, about leadership about programming, about messaging, you're writing the about us messaging, you're writing the about us messaging, you're writing the about us page on your website, I want you to page on your website, I want you to page on your website, I want you to think about your four audience personas. think about your four audience personas. think about your four audience personas. So, think about Farway Fiona and what So, think about Farway Fiona and what So, think about Farway Fiona and what she resonates with and her communication she resonates with and her communication she resonates with and her communication style and what is keeping her from style and what is keeping her from style and what is keeping her from faith. and then read through the copy faith. and then read through the copy faith. and then read through the copy you just wrote or re-evaluate the you just wrote or re-evaluate the you just wrote or re-evaluate the programming that you just presented and programming that you just presented and programming that you just presented and think about her and how it intersects think about her and how it intersects think about her and how it intersects with her life. And the fun part about with her life. And the fun part about with her life. And the fun part about this exercise was each audience persona this exercise was each audience persona this exercise was each audience persona was very different. Like one of them was was very different. Like one of them was was very different. Like one of them was Kathy Christian and that was not Kathy Christian and that was not Kathy Christian and that was not intentionally named after your mother intentionally named after your mother intentionally named after your mother now that I'm thinking about it though I now that I'm thinking about it though I now that I'm thinking about it though I was texting with her this weekend. Nice.

was texting with her this weekend. Nice. was texting with her this weekend. Nice. and Kathy Christian is going to have a and Kathy Christian is going to have a and Kathy Christian is going to have a very different perspective on life and very different perspective on life and very different perspective on life and faith and how she cares about being faith and how she cares about being faith and how she cares about being communicated to than Far Away Fiona. And communicated to than Far Away Fiona. And communicated to than Far Away Fiona. And so then we took those audience personas so then we took those audience personas so then we took those audience personas and we extracted personality and voice and we extracted personality and voice and we extracted personality and voice values for the church that would values for the church that would values for the church that would basically basically basically reconcile two people that you care about reconcile two people that you care about reconcile two people that you care about reaching who are basically like reaching who are basically like reaching who are basically like antithetical to one another, right? antithetical to one another, right? antithetical to one another, right? Because what we talked about was like in Because what we talked about was like in Because what we talked about was like in church what happens is you end up being church what happens is you end up being church what happens is you end up being hospitable to like one group. usually hospitable to like one group. usually hospitable to like one group. usually the person that looks most like the the person that looks most like the the person that looks most like the pastor at the expense of being hostile pastor at the expense of being hostile pastor at the expense of being hostile to the others. And I said like if one to the others. And I said like if one to the others. And I said like if one person says I don't resonate with things person says I don't resonate with things person says I don't resonate with things in church because they're too dogmatic in church because they're too dogmatic in church because they're too dogmatic and then Kathy Christians like please and then Kathy Christians like please and then Kathy Christians like please just speak it plain to me plainly like just speak it plain to me plainly like just speak it plain to me plainly like how do you reconcile those two things? how do you reconcile those two things? how do you reconcile those two things? And I said those are their perspectives And I said those are their perspectives And I said those are their perspectives but if we can kind of like pull voice but if we can kind of like pull voice but if we can kind of like pull voice attributes from those things. So for attributes from those things. So for attributes from those things. So for like far away Fiona we said like our like far away Fiona we said like our like far away Fiona we said like our brand voice will not be elitist and that brand voice will not be elitist and that brand voice will not be elitist and that was kind of the word that we mined from was kind of the word that we mined from was kind of the word that we mined from this idea of dogma. It's like I if dogma this idea of dogma. It's like I if dogma this idea of dogma. It's like I if dogma is like I opinions that are expressed as is like I opinions that are expressed as is like I opinions that are expressed as strong as facts like yeah I don't like strong as facts like yeah I don't like strong as facts like yeah I don't like as a person of faith like I do want to as a person of faith like I do want to as a person of faith like I do want to like believe strongly in my things so I like believe strongly in my things so I like believe strongly in my things so I don't think that's a bad thing but what don't think that's a bad thing but what don't think that's a bad thing but what is it about dogma that turns off far is it about dogma that turns off far is it about dogma that turns off far away Fiona and keeps her far away from away Fiona and keeps her far away from away Fiona and keeps her far away from faith but makes her maybe more open to faith but makes her maybe more open to faith but makes her maybe more open to Eastern religions like probably the Eastern religions like probably the Eastern religions like probably the elitism. So I wrote down, okay, our elitism. So I wrote down, okay, our elitism. So I wrote down, okay, our brain voice is not going to be elitist.

brain voice is not going to be elitist. brain voice is not going to be elitist. And then for someone like Kathy And then for someone like Kathy And then for someone like Kathy Christian, Christian, Christian, her issue was like, you know, I've been her issue was like, you know, I've been her issue was like, you know, I've been coming to church for 50 years, like if coming to church for 50 years, like if coming to church for 50 years, like if I'm being honest, sometimes it's like a I'm being honest, sometimes it's like a I'm being honest, sometimes it's like a bit routine. And so I was like, okay, bit routine. And so I was like, okay, bit routine. And so I was like, okay, the brand voice we pulled from that was the brand voice we pulled from that was the brand voice we pulled from that was like, our brand will not be stale. I like, our brand will not be stale. I like, our brand will not be stale. I like, okay, so now if I run my copy like, okay, so now if I run my copy like, okay, so now if I run my copy evaluation through, we're not going to evaluation through, we're not going to evaluation through, we're not going to be elitist and we're not going to be be elitist and we're not going to be be elitist and we're not going to be stale. I can reach both of those people. stale. I can reach both of those people. stale. I can reach both of those people. Yeah. Who at first glance are completely Yeah. Who at first glance are completely Yeah. Who at first glance are completely different and you would have to like different and you would have to like different and you would have to like cater to one or the other. No, that's cater to one or the other. No, that's cater to one or the other. No, that's not true. It was not my intention to go not true. It was not my intention to go not true. It was not my intention to go into this full exercise right now, but into this full exercise right now, but into this full exercise right now, but the idea here simply is to be aware of the idea here simply is to be aware of the idea here simply is to be aware of who you're trying to reach. Um because who you're trying to reach. Um because who you're trying to reach. Um because that kind of is the final step to like that kind of is the final step to like that kind of is the final step to like this is the landscape as a whole. Now, this is the landscape as a whole. Now, this is the landscape as a whole. Now, how can we dial down even more how can we dial down even more how can we dial down even more granularly to the individuals in our granularly to the individuals in our granularly to the individuals in our community or neighborhood? I just spoke community or neighborhood? I just spoke community or neighborhood? I just spoke a lot. Thoughts? I feel like we've a lot. Thoughts? I feel like we've a lot. Thoughts? I feel like we've opened a a can there at the very end, opened a a can there at the very end, opened a a can there at the very end, too. Perhaps could have been a different too. Perhaps could have been a different too. Perhaps could have been a different episode. Well, I mean I mean it's our episode. Well, I mean I mean it's our episode. Well, I mean I mean it's our show. We can do that. Like we could do show. We can do that. Like we could do show. We can do that. Like we could do another episode on that, right? And and another episode on that, right? And and another episode on that, right? And and and and talk about how like, okay, this and and talk about how like, okay, this and and talk about how like, okay, this is thanks to the data, we can see this is thanks to the data, we can see this is thanks to the data, we can see this is the landscape we're working in.

is the landscape we're working in. is the landscape we're working in. Whether it's America, you've got Ryan's Whether it's America, you've got Ryan's Whether it's America, you've got Ryan's got your data. If it's if what's going got your data. If it's if what's going got your data. If it's if what's going on in the UK, there's like a bit more of on in the UK, there's like a bit more of on in the UK, there's like a bit more of like a revivalish because they're like a revivalish because they're like a revivalish because they're starting so much lower. Yeah. It's like, starting so much lower. Yeah. It's like, starting so much lower. Yeah. It's like, okay, you've got something to work with okay, you've got something to work with okay, you've got something to work with here. And so once we've named that and here. And so once we've named that and here. And so once we've named that and can see it for what it is, the question can see it for what it is, the question can see it for what it is, the question lies before all of us in our own little lies before all of us in our own little lies before all of us in our own little churches all over the world. like, okay, churches all over the world. like, okay, churches all over the world. like, okay, what what now? How does that impact to what what now? How does that impact to what what now? How does that impact to to what you're saying? Like, how does to what you're saying? Like, how does to what you're saying? Like, how does that impact not just not just what we that impact not just not just what we that impact not just not just what we do, but how we talk about what we do? do, but how we talk about what we do? do, but how we talk about what we do? And you know, we we're experiencing at And you know, we we're experiencing at And you know, we we're experiencing at our little church in Niagara, we're our little church in Niagara, we're our little church in Niagara, we're experiencing more young people come experiencing more young people come experiencing more young people come visit our church like on their own, like visit our church like on their own, like visit our church like on their own, like not with their parents or whatever, like not with their parents or whatever, like not with their parents or whatever, like on their own than we have in like in on their own than we have in like in on their own than we have in like in probably in the last 20 years, like in probably in the last 20 years, like in probably in the last 20 years, like in recent memory. And so the like we're recent memory. And so the like we're recent memory. And so the like we're seeing we're seeing it reflected in the seeing we're seeing it reflected in the seeing we're seeing it reflected in the data that okay the nuns are are data that okay the nuns are are data that okay the nuns are are plateauing and people are still coming plateauing and people are still coming plateauing and people are still coming to church in the UK. We're seeing more to church in the UK. We're seeing more to church in the UK. We're seeing more people coming to church. We're seeing people coming to church. We're seeing people coming to church. We're seeing Gen Z really looking for for spiritual Gen Z really looking for for spiritual Gen Z really looking for for spiritual things. It's like okay these people are things. It's like okay these people are things. It's like okay these people are going to show up to your church whether going to show up to your church whether going to show up to your church whether you're ready for them or not. And the you're ready for them or not. And the you're ready for them or not. And the data is like almost prophesying that data is like almost prophesying that data is like almost prophesying that right? Like it's it's that they're going right? Like it's it's that they're going right? Like it's it's that they're going to stop leaving. And so what are you to stop leaving. And so what are you to stop leaving. And so what are you going to do with that when they do show going to do with that when they do show going to do with that when they do show up? How are you, again, like I said, not up? How are you, again, like I said, not up? How are you, again, like I said, not just what are you going to what program just what are you going to what program just what are you going to what program are you do, but how are you going to are you do, but how are you going to are you do, but how are you going to talk about it? How are you going to talk about it? How are you going to talk about it? How are you going to welcome these people? And how are you welcome these people? And how are you welcome these people? And how are you going to be ready with the story of going to be ready with the story of going to be ready with the story of Jesus for them to receive when they Jesus for them to receive when they Jesus for them to receive when they come? I mean, that's the task before come? I mean, that's the task before come? I mean, that's the task before before all of us as as pastors and not

before all of us as as pastors and not before all of us as as pastors and not just pastors, as as volunteers, as just pastors, as as volunteers, as just pastors, as as volunteers, as people who just belong to church, as people who just belong to church, as people who just belong to church, as people who faithfully go to church every people who faithfully go to church every people who faithfully go to church every week and and are pillars of communities week and and are pillars of communities week and and are pillars of communities of faith. That's that's our of faith. That's that's our of faith. That's that's our responsibility, too. Um, and so I I responsibility, too. Um, and so I I responsibility, too. Um, and so I I think all of this all of this data and think all of this all of this data and think all of this all of this data and some of the things we've talked about, some of the things we've talked about, some of the things we've talked about, some of the some of the reasons for why some of the some of the reasons for why some of the some of the reasons for why we're seeing this and then maybe what we we're seeing this and then maybe what we we're seeing this and then maybe what we should do about it, this all has given should do about it, this all has given should do about it, this all has given us a lot to reflect on and and to us a lot to reflect on and and to us a lot to reflect on and and to consider going forward into like you consider going forward into like you consider going forward into like you said like into a new season and and onto said like into a new season and and onto said like into a new season and and onto this new wave that that you you can't this new wave that that you you can't this new wave that that you you can't stop you can't stop a wave when it's stop you can't stop a wave when it's stop you can't stop a wave when it's coming. You have you have a choice to coming. You have you have a choice to coming. You have you have a choice to either swim against it or or ride it. either swim against it or or ride it. either swim against it or or ride it. And of course, our position is is we And of course, our position is is we And of course, our position is is we ought to ride this. And so it's ought to ride this. And so it's ought to ride this. And so it's happening. It's here. And what will we happening. It's here. And what will we happening. It's here. And what will we do? Um, more on this in another episode. do? Um, more on this in another episode. do? Um, more on this in another episode. We'll be back next Wednesday as we We'll be back next Wednesday as we We'll be back next Wednesday as we always are. Thanks for your time, always are. Thanks for your time, always are. Thanks for your time, attention, and trust. Talk to you later. attention, and trust. Talk to you later. attention, and trust. Talk to you later. Are you fighting the post Easter slump? Are you fighting the post Easter slump? Are you fighting the post Easter slump? Oh, I might be. I didn't even know I had Oh, I might be. I didn't even know I had Oh, I might be. I didn't even know I had it. I'm not even publishing any content it. I'm not even publishing any content it. I'm not even publishing any content this week. I'm like, podcast today.

this week. I'm like, podcast today. this week. I'm like, podcast today. You're all tired. I'm tired. Let's take You're all tired. I'm tired. Let's take You're all tired. I'm tired. Let's take a I take a week