Churches Like This Won't Survive To 2040

The world is changing rapidly. AI is The world is changing rapidly. AI is transforming economies, [music] transforming economies, [music] transforming economies, [music] industries, and even how you and I as industries, and even how you and I as industries, and even how you and I as humans interact with each other. So, humans interact with each other. So, humans interact with each other. So, what does this mean for the church and what does this mean for the church and what does this mean for the church and its future? In one of our most important its future? In one of our most important its future? In one of our most important episodes ever, we're here to share the episodes ever, we're here to share the episodes ever, we're here to share the four changes we think every [music] four changes we think every [music] four changes we think every [music] church should make before 2030. Let's church should make before 2030. Let's church should make before 2030. Let's dive in. dive in. dive in. >> Well, hey there and welcome to the >> Well, hey there and welcome to the >> Well, hey there and welcome to the ProChurch Tool Show. We're here to help ProChurch Tool Show. We're here to help ProChurch Tool Show. We're here to help you and your church navigate the biggest you and your church navigate the biggest you and your church navigate the biggest communication shift in 500 years. I'm communication shift in 500 years. I'm communication shift in 500 years. I'm Brady Sheer, your host. I'm joined as Brady Sheer, your host. I'm joined as Brady Sheer, your host. I'm joined as always by my co-host. We call him Pastor always by my co-host. We call him Pastor always by my co-host. We call him Pastor Powder. the way he's hitting those Powder. the way he's hitting those Powder. the way he's hitting those slopes. It's Alexander Mills. slopes. It's Alexander Mills. slopes. It's Alexander Mills. >> Hello. Hello. >> Hello. Hello. >> Hello. Hello. >> In one of our, if not the most important >> In one of our, if not the most important >> In one of our, if not the most important podcasts ever, which is saying something podcasts ever, which is saying something podcasts ever, which is saying something because this is episode 873, because this is episode 873, because this is episode 873, >> we are talking about well the biggest >> we are talking about well the biggest >> we are talking about well the biggest communication shift of 500 years, which communication shift of 500 years, which communication shift of 500 years, which used to mean something different. used to mean something different. used to mean something different. >> That was in reference to the printing >> That was in reference to the printing >> That was in reference to the printing press, that being 500 years ago, and the press, that being 500 years ago, and the press, that being 500 years ago, and the internet and how transformative it was internet and how transformative it was internet and how transformative it was for how we communicate with one another. for how we communicate with one another. for how we communicate with one another. And then AI came around and was like And then AI came around and was like And then AI came around and was like actually this is the biggest actually this is the biggest actually this is the biggest communication shift and it might even communication shift and it might even communication shift and it might even put the internet put the internet put the internet >> like as a small brother compared to what >> like as a small brother compared to what >> like as a small brother compared to what >> that's the new intro to our show. The >> that's the new intro to our show. The >> that's the new intro to our show. The biggest communication shift in the last biggest communication shift in the last biggest communication shift in the last 30 years.

30 years. 30 years. >> No, it's going to last like 36 months. >> No, it's going to last like 36 months. >> No, it's going to last like 36 months. 500 months. Yeah, it doesn't. We'll 500 months. Yeah, it doesn't. We'll 500 months. Yeah, it doesn't. We'll probably just keep it as it is. So, you probably just keep it as it is. So, you probably just keep it as it is. So, you know, why are we talking about AI now? know, why are we talking about AI now? know, why are we talking about AI now? It's not like it's this especially new It's not like it's this especially new It's not like it's this especially new technology. It's been, you know, technology. It's been, you know, technology. It's been, you know, probably about 36 months since it probably about 36 months since it probably about 36 months since it entered the lives of our everydayness. entered the lives of our everydayness. entered the lives of our everydayness. 24. 24. 24. >> I got some blood work back the other day >> I got some blood work back the other day >> I got some blood work back the other day and this blood work was, you know, the and this blood work was, you know, the and this blood work was, you know, the third or fourth round that I've done in third or fourth round that I've done in third or fourth round that I've done in the past few years. And I was trying to the past few years. And I was trying to the past few years. And I was trying to like synthesize all of the information like synthesize all of the information like synthesize all of the information that I had because there are a bunch of that I had because there are a bunch of that I had because there are a bunch of numbers and I know what some of them numbers and I know what some of them numbers and I know what some of them mean, but I don't know what a bunch of mean, but I don't know what a bunch of mean, but I don't know what a bunch of them mean. and I could go to my family them mean. and I could go to my family them mean. and I could go to my family doctor, but I thought to myself, what if doctor, but I thought to myself, what if doctor, but I thought to myself, what if I just like uploaded all of this to chat I just like uploaded all of this to chat I just like uploaded all of this to chat and said, "Hey, what what are some like and said, "Hey, what what are some like and said, "Hey, what what are some like key things that you want to pull out key things that you want to pull out key things that you want to pull out from these numbers?" from these numbers?" from these numbers?" >> And so I did that and chat started >> And so I did that and chat started >> And so I did that and chat started giving me insights into my own like giving me insights into my own like giving me insights into my own like physiology that I imagine a skilled physiology that I imagine a skilled physiology that I imagine a skilled doctor would do if they had the time to doctor would do if they had the time to doctor would do if they had the time to dedicate to it dedicate to it dedicate to it >> or I paid them a bunch of money. >> or I paid them a bunch of money. >> or I paid them a bunch of money. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And I got it like instantly. and like >> And I got it like instantly. and like >> And I got it like instantly. and like unique things about me that said, "Hey, unique things about me that said, "Hey, unique things about me that said, "Hey, this number that you see here is this number that you see here is this number that you see here is actually high for this reason, not for actually high for this reason, not for actually high for this reason, not for this reason." I was like, "Oh, I never this reason." I was like, "Oh, I never this reason." I was like, "Oh, I never would have known that." And and I know would have known that." And and I know would have known that." And and I know that because in context, it's linked to that because in context, it's linked to that because in context, it's linked to this number, which is also linked to this number, which is also linked to this number, which is also linked to this, like just all of these things. And this, like just all of these things. And this, like just all of these things. And I thought to myself, that was available I thought to myself, that was available I thought to myself, that was available to me instantly to me instantly to me instantly >> for like free or for like $8 a month or >> for like free or for like $8 a month or >> for like free or for like $8 a month or $25 a month or whatever it might be. And $25 a month or whatever it might be. And $25 a month or whatever it might be. And I got to thinking, wow, that's going to I got to thinking, wow, that's going to I got to thinking, wow, that's going to be transformative for the medicine be transformative for the medicine be transformative for the medicine community because what'll happen is community because what'll happen is community because what'll happen is these things will become available to

these things will become available to these things will become available to you and then we'll all start to use them you and then we'll all start to use them you and then we'll all start to use them behaviorally and then downstream from behaviorally and then downstream from behaviorally and then downstream from that it will affect the industries in that it will affect the industries in that it will affect the industries in which like those things occupy. I was which like those things occupy. I was which like those things occupy. I was talking to my physiootherapist talking to my physiootherapist talking to my physiootherapist >> recently and he was saying yeah everyone >> recently and he was saying yeah everyone >> recently and he was saying yeah everyone just comes in and goes now AI AI said just comes in and goes now AI AI said just comes in and goes now AI AI said this and like that's how I start with this and like that's how I start with this and like that's how I start with them. It's not like I read this on the them. It's not like I read this on the them. It's not like I read this on the internet. He's like, "And it's actually internet. He's like, "And it's actually internet. He's like, "And it's actually a better starting point than I read this a better starting point than I read this a better starting point than I read this on the internet." Cuz you used to read on the internet." Cuz you used to read on the internet." Cuz you used to read something on the internet and you'd read something on the internet and you'd read something on the internet and you'd read one person's like Reddit claimable, one person's like Reddit claimable, one person's like Reddit claimable, right? And these are more personalized right? And these are more personalized right? And these are more personalized and they have more nuance, which is and they have more nuance, which is and they have more nuance, which is actually a better starting point. And actually a better starting point. And actually a better starting point. And then you said, "In our um practice, then you said, "In our um practice, then you said, "In our um practice, we're starting to integrate it in all of we're starting to integrate it in all of we're starting to integrate it in all of these ways as well." And I thought, these ways as well." And I thought, these ways as well." And I thought, okay, pretty interesting. okay, pretty interesting. okay, pretty interesting. >> So then the question comes to mind, >> So then the question comes to mind, >> So then the question comes to mind, >> what does that mean for church? >> what does that mean for church? >> what does that mean for church? >> Yeah. I don't mean to interrupt you, but >> Yeah. I don't mean to interrupt you, but >> Yeah. I don't mean to interrupt you, but I was having this conversation with I was having this conversation with I was having this conversation with myself. You'd be surprised to hear this. myself. You'd be surprised to hear this. myself. You'd be surprised to hear this. >> Not with chat. >> Not with chat. >> Not with chat. >> With myself. >> With myself. >> With myself. >> You weren't talking to chat. >> You weren't talking to chat. >> You weren't talking to chat. >> No. While I was washing dishes this >> No. While I was washing dishes this >> No. While I was washing dishes this morning, I was thinking, morning, I was thinking, morning, I was thinking, is there a holy way to use this is there a holy way to use this is there a holy way to use this technology? technology? technology? >> Yeah. To be clear, you hate AI and want >> Yeah. To be clear, you hate AI and want >> Yeah. To be clear, you hate AI and want it to burn. [laughter] it to burn. [laughter] it to burn. [laughter] >> That's that's one >> That's that's one >> That's that's one >> I feel like that's important context for >> I feel like that's important context for >> I feel like that's important context for our listeners.

our listeners. our listeners. >> Yeah. In our last episode, we had a >> Yeah. In our last episode, we had a >> Yeah. In our last episode, we had a charitable read and critical read. That charitable read and critical read. That charitable read and critical read. That would be the critical read of my my would be the critical read of my my would be the critical read of my my opinion on AI, but I do have very strong opinion on AI, but I do have very strong opinion on AI, but I do have very strong opinions about this technology. Very opinions about this technology. Very opinions about this technology. Very strong reservations. strong reservations. strong reservations. >> Damn it to hell, you've said famously. >> Damn it to hell, you've said famously. >> Damn it to hell, you've said famously. >> I have said that. Yes. [laughter] >> I have said that. Yes. [laughter] >> I have said that. Yes. [laughter] Um, but I was asking Um, but I was asking Um, but I was asking >> not cursing like the actual language of >> not cursing like the actual language of >> not cursing like the actual language of >> the Bible. >> the Bible. >> the Bible. >> Yeah. Uh, no, I was thinking like, is >> Yeah. Uh, no, I was thinking like, is >> Yeah. Uh, no, I was thinking like, is there a holy way to use this? And the there a holy way to use this? And the there a holy way to use this? And the first way that came to my mind was, oh first way that came to my mind was, oh first way that came to my mind was, oh yeah, like using this in medicine seems yeah, like using this in medicine seems yeah, like using this in medicine seems like a holy use of this technology. So, like a holy use of this technology. So, like a holy use of this technology. So, it's I it's curious to me that that that it's I it's curious to me that that that it's I it's curious to me that that that was that was kind of the impetus for was that was kind of the impetus for was that was kind of the impetus for these these thoughts of yours as well. these these thoughts of yours as well. these these thoughts of yours as well. >> Yeah. And we're not here. We've done >> Yeah. And we're not here. We've done >> Yeah. And we're not here. We've done episodes in the past on like how to use episodes in the past on like how to use episodes in the past on like how to use AI in church and how to like ethically AI in church and how to like ethically AI in church and how to like ethically use it and policy to develop around AI. use it and policy to develop around AI. use it and policy to develop around AI. You can look up those episodes on the You can look up those episodes on the You can look up those episodes on the channel. Today I want to talk about it's channel. Today I want to talk about it's channel. Today I want to talk about it's 2030 or it's 2040. The world has been 2030 or it's 2040. The world has been 2030 or it's 2040. The world has been dramatically now shaped by AI. dramatically now shaped by AI. dramatically now shaped by AI. >> What does the church look like in that >> What does the church look like in that >> What does the church look like in that >> right world? The good news is this. >> right world? The good news is this. >> right world? The good news is this. Churches are among the most insulated Churches are among the most insulated Churches are among the most insulated institutions in an AI saturated society.

institutions in an AI saturated society. institutions in an AI saturated society. Sure. I believe and we'll get into why, Sure. I believe and we'll get into why, Sure. I believe and we'll get into why, but just to like paint the picture of but just to like paint the picture of but just to like paint the picture of like what this 2040 landscape is. like what this 2040 landscape is. like what this 2040 landscape is. >> And I think like these these numbers are >> And I think like these these numbers are >> And I think like these these numbers are kind of like rough guesses. Uh you kind of like rough guesses. Uh you kind of like rough guesses. Uh you should know. I asked AI what it thought should know. I asked AI what it thought should know. I asked AI what it thought of my guesses and it was like oh these of my guesses and it was like oh these of my guesses and it was like oh these are these. No, no, try changing it to are these. No, no, try changing it to are these. No, no, try changing it to this. Cuz my AI I have told to never this. Cuz my AI I have told to never this. Cuz my AI I have told to never listen to me and be skeptical. So, it's listen to me and be skeptical. So, it's listen to me and be skeptical. So, it's usually pretty good to be like, "Okay, usually pretty good to be like, "Okay, usually pretty good to be like, "Okay, not bad, but how about this?" Instead of not bad, but how about this?" Instead of not bad, but how about this?" Instead of being like, "Why are you so smart and being like, "Why are you so smart and being like, "Why are you so smart and beautiful?" [laughter] beautiful?" [laughter] beautiful?" [laughter] So, I said like, "Could this be 2030?" So, I said like, "Could this be 2030?" So, I said like, "Could this be 2030?" And Chad's response was, "This And Chad's response was, "This And Chad's response was, "This technology could very well be available technology could very well be available technology could very well be available at 2030, but at 2030, but at 2030, but >> industries are always forever like >> industries are always forever like >> industries are always forever like taken. They take forever to change." taken. They take forever to change." taken. They take forever to change." It's like, so probably by 2040 is when It's like, so probably by 2040 is when It's like, so probably by 2040 is when like we've all accepted and like this like we've all accepted and like this like we've all accepted and like this change has taken place. It's like social change has taken place. It's like social change has taken place. It's like social media was available in 2010, but we media was available in 2010, but we media was available in 2010, but we weren't really sure like how it affected weren't really sure like how it affected weren't really sure like how it affected the world until like 2020, the world until like 2020, the world until like 2020, >> right? >> right? >> right? >> And so similar. Okay, great. So 2030 >> And so similar. Okay, great. So 2030 >> And so similar. Okay, great. So 2030 this stuff is available. 2040 is when we this stuff is available. 2040 is when we this stuff is available. 2040 is when we are in a fully AI saturated society. are in a fully AI saturated society. are in a fully AI saturated society. What does that look like? Well, What does that look like? Well, What does that look like? Well, >> in >> in >> in >> robots [laughter] >> robots [laughter] >> robots [laughter] >> in this world, we've been waiting for >> in this world, we've been waiting for >> in this world, we've been waiting for those. Where are they at?

those. Where are they at? those. Where are they at? >> Right. Honestly, [laughter] >> Right. Honestly, [laughter] >> Right. Honestly, [laughter] >> anyways, >> anyways, >> anyways, >> uh yeah, like didn't like just like the >> uh yeah, like didn't like just like the >> uh yeah, like didn't like just like the robot vacuum company go bankrupt? Like robot vacuum company go bankrupt? Like robot vacuum company go bankrupt? Like they were supposed to [laughter] help us they were supposed to [laughter] help us they were supposed to [laughter] help us and they couldn't even make money. and they couldn't even make money. and they couldn't even make money. >> Flying cars. Come on. >> Flying cars. Come on. >> Flying cars. Come on. >> Okay. In this world, information is >> Okay. In this world, information is >> Okay. In this world, information is infinite. infinite. infinite. >> Everything is convenient. Everything is >> Everything is convenient. Everything is >> Everything is convenient. Everything is optimized. Everything is personalized. optimized. Everything is personalized. optimized. Everything is personalized. So, you got a little bit of taste of So, you got a little bit of taste of So, you got a little bit of taste of that with like me uploading those labs, that with like me uploading those labs, that with like me uploading those labs, right? Like instead of me just looking right? Like instead of me just looking right? Like instead of me just looking like cholesterol number means this. It's like cholesterol number means this. It's like cholesterol number means this. It's like no, no, no. Okay, your cholesterol like no, no, no. Okay, your cholesterol like no, no, no. Okay, your cholesterol number means this. We've tracked it for number means this. We've tracked it for number means this. We've tracked it for this many years and in the context of this many years and in the context of this many years and in the context of all the other things, it means this. all the other things, it means this. all the other things, it means this. Nothing is like standardized. Every Nothing is like standardized. Every Nothing is like standardized. Every single thing is like personal to you. single thing is like personal to you. single thing is like personal to you. And we're starting to see that now, And we're starting to see that now, And we're starting to see that now, right? right? right? >> Yeah. You're getting totally foretaste >> Yeah. You're getting totally foretaste >> Yeah. You're getting totally foretaste of it right now. Like one example would of it right now. Like one example would of it right now. Like one example would be like we all have personalized news be like we all have personalized news be like we all have personalized news feeds or personalized for you pages and feeds or personalized for you pages and feeds or personalized for you pages and so we're all kind of like living in our so we're all kind of like living in our so we're all kind of like living in our own isolated worlds where I'll be like own isolated worlds where I'll be like own isolated worlds where I'll be like hey did you see this Tik Tok that got hey did you see this Tik Tok that got hey did you see this Tik Tok that got 1.2 2 million likes and everyone else in 1.2 2 million likes and everyone else in 1.2 2 million likes and everyone else in my company, my closest friends who all my company, my closest friends who all my company, my closest friends who all look exactly like me will be like never look exactly like me will be like never look exactly like me will be like never heard of that and I'll be like wow okay heard of that and I'll be like wow okay heard of that and I'll be like wow okay so this is just like just me. so this is just like just me. so this is just like just me. >> So that is now like >> So that is now like >> So that is now like like extrapolated to every part of like extrapolated to every part of like extrapolated to every part of society and in this world AI is more society and in this world AI is more society and in this world AI is more trusted than humans for things like trusted than humans for things like trusted than humans for things like speed and accuracy. So back to that speed and accuracy. So back to that speed and accuracy. So back to that story of me and my blood work story of me and my blood work story of me and my blood work >> AI doctors will outperform average human >> AI doctors will outperform average human >> AI doctors will outperform average human doctors.

doctors. doctors. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> In this. So a real human doctor would be >> In this. So a real human doctor would be >> In this. So a real human doctor would be there for like support, would be there there for like support, would be there there for like support, would be there for like strange edge cases, for like strange edge cases, for like strange edge cases, >> but like most of the things that doctors >> but like most of the things that doctors >> but like most of the things that doctors routinely do now are probably done by routinely do now are probably done by routinely do now are probably done by AI. AI. AI. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> That's the world we're living in. So >> That's the world we're living in. So >> That's the world we're living in. So your church in 2030, in 2040, what are your church in 2030, in 2040, what are your church in 2030, in 2040, what are the things that you're dealing with? And the things that you're dealing with? And the things that you're dealing with? And so what we have here are four changes so what we have here are four changes so what we have here are four changes that we think are going to be critically that we think are going to be critically that we think are going to be critically important. and you can start thinking important. and you can start thinking important. and you can start thinking about these changes and implementing about these changes and implementing about these changes and implementing what we'll talk about ASAP what we'll talk about ASAP what we'll talk about ASAP >> because I think it's very clear where AI >> because I think it's very clear where AI >> because I think it's very clear where AI is going to be taking us. I think is going to be taking us. I think is going to be taking us. I think there's a lot that's still up in the air there's a lot that's still up in the air there's a lot that's still up in the air with AI, but I think it's clear like how with AI, but I think it's clear like how with AI, but I think it's clear like how it is going to affect the fabric of it is going to affect the fabric of it is going to affect the fabric of everyday life. everyday life. everyday life. The time horizon maybe is a bit fuzzy The time horizon maybe is a bit fuzzy The time horizon maybe is a bit fuzzy but these changes are not just like hey but these changes are not just like hey but these changes are not just like hey time horizon 101 15 years but if we time horizon 101 15 years but if we time horizon 101 15 years but if we start implementing these changes right start implementing these changes right start implementing these changes right now I think they are true to a biblical now I think they are true to a biblical now I think they are true to a biblical ethic true to the tradition of church ethic true to the tradition of church ethic true to the tradition of church over a couple of millennia and will be over a couple of millennia and will be over a couple of millennia and will be profitable now but also protect your profitable now but also protect your profitable now but also protect your ministry for the future because I think ministry for the future because I think ministry for the future because I think if you're not making these changes as a if you're not making these changes as a if you're not making these changes as a church you're probably not going to be a church you're probably not going to be a church you're probably not going to be a valuable entity valuable entity valuable entity >> for people in 2030. 30 and beyond.

>> for people in 2030. 30 and beyond. >> for people in 2030. 30 and beyond. >> Yeah. I mean, if you're not talking >> Yeah. I mean, if you're not talking >> Yeah. I mean, if you're not talking about this already like explicitly about this already like explicitly about this already like explicitly amongst the leaders in your church or amongst the leaders in your church or amongst the leaders in your church or even like as a community in your church even like as a community in your church even like as a community in your church as a whole, certainly everyone is as a whole, certainly everyone is as a whole, certainly everyone is feeling this from your senior pastor all feeling this from your senior pastor all feeling this from your senior pastor all the way down to the the lay person who the way down to the the lay person who the way down to the the lay person who just shows up. We are all in one way or just shows up. We are all in one way or just shows up. We are all in one way or another experiencing this communication another experiencing this communication another experiencing this communication shift with the the mass availability of shift with the the mass availability of shift with the the mass availability of this technology in many cases completely this technology in many cases completely this technology in many cases completely free. You can pay for subscriptions to free. You can pay for subscriptions to free. You can pay for subscriptions to chat and and get more features and chat and and get more features and chat and and get more features and functionality and what have you, but functionality and what have you, but functionality and what have you, but like for the most part this technology like for the most part this technology like for the most part this technology is available to anyone with an internet is available to anyone with an internet is available to anyone with an internet connection for free. And so we're all connection for free. And so we're all connection for free. And so we're all feeling the the ramifications of it feeling the the ramifications of it feeling the the ramifications of it right now. And there's this sense right now. And there's this sense right now. And there's this sense certainly it's it's fear on one end of certainly it's it's fear on one end of certainly it's it's fear on one end of the spectrum and and simple uncertainty the spectrum and and simple uncertainty the spectrum and and simple uncertainty at the other other end of the spectrum, at the other other end of the spectrum, at the other other end of the spectrum, but we're all feeling along that but we're all feeling along that but we're all feeling along that spectrum of like, okay, what does this spectrum of like, okay, what does this spectrum of like, okay, what does this mean for the future and not just our mean for the future and not just our mean for the future and not just our collective future, but certainly the the collective future, but certainly the the collective future, but certainly the the future for the church? Um, and it's future for the church? Um, and it's future for the church? Um, and it's already already already intersecting with the ministry we do at intersecting with the ministry we do at intersecting with the ministry we do at church. Like so many pastors, I was church. Like so many pastors, I was church. Like so many pastors, I was reading uh uh this week, somebody reading uh uh this week, somebody reading uh uh this week, somebody brought this across my feed, but 61% of brought this across my feed, but 61% of brought this across my feed, but 61% of pastors report, this is right now the pastors report, this is right now the pastors report, this is right now the end of 2025, using AI weekly or daily, end of 2025, using AI weekly or daily, end of 2025, using AI weekly or daily, up from 43% in 2024. And they're using up from 43% in 2024. And they're using up from 43% in 2024. And they're using AI not just for personal stuff, but for AI not just for personal stuff, but for AI not just for personal stuff, but for for sermon content and their their for sermon content and their their for sermon content and their their ministry work. And so this technology is ministry work. And so this technology is ministry work. And so this technology is already infiltrating the work we do. And already infiltrating the work we do. And already infiltrating the work we do. And we have real questions to ask about how we have real questions to ask about how we have real questions to ask about how to

to to navigate the future of our institution navigate the future of our institution navigate the future of our institution of of the church where our of of the church where our of of the church where our responsibility is to tell the story of responsibility is to tell the story of responsibility is to tell the story of Jesus Christ in a world that is in a Jesus Christ in a world that is in a Jesus Christ in a world that is in a large sense fueled by the communication large sense fueled by the communication large sense fueled by the communication is fueled by this technology. The way is fueled by this technology. The way is fueled by this technology. The way we're going to present these shifts is we're going to present these shifts is we're going to present these shifts is blank versus blank. And the idea there blank versus blank. And the idea there blank versus blank. And the idea there is to say this is kind of what we're is to say this is kind of what we're is to say this is kind of what we're doing now and this is what we need to doing now and this is what we need to doing now and this is what we need to pivot to, pivot back to in some cases in pivot to, pivot back to in some cases in pivot to, pivot back to in some cases in the future. We could start right now. the future. We could start right now. the future. We could start right now. First one is canon versus content. First one is canon versus content. First one is canon versus content. In this future world, AI can generate In this future world, AI can generate In this future world, AI can generate infinite content that rivals if not infinite content that rivals if not infinite content that rivals if not surpasses anything that a human create surpasses anything that a human create surpasses anything that a human create can create on their own. We're already can create on their own. We're already can create on their own. We're already seeing this with music that's charting. seeing this with music that's charting. seeing this with music that's charting. >> Like not created by a human >> Like not created by a human >> Like not created by a human >> at all. >> at all. >> at all. >> And people are like, you know, that's >> And people are like, you know, that's >> And people are like, you know, that's pretty good [laughter] pretty good [laughter] pretty good [laughter] >> in 2025, >> in 2025, >> in 2025, right? So here's what will be true right? So here's what will be true right? So here's what will be true though about the future. AI can generate though about the future. AI can generate though about the future. AI can generate stories. It cannot declare orthodoxy.

stories. It cannot declare orthodoxy. stories. It cannot declare orthodoxy. >> So in 20 240 content is infinite. It's >> So in 20 240 content is infinite. It's >> So in 20 240 content is infinite. It's disposable. Canon becomes scarce and disposable. Canon becomes scarce and disposable. Canon becomes scarce and authoritative. authoritative. authoritative. In a world where AI can generate In a world where AI can generate In a world where AI can generate virtually perfect sermons, devotionals, virtually perfect sermons, devotionals, virtually perfect sermons, devotionals, illustrations. What AI cannot do is illustrations. What AI cannot do is illustrations. What AI cannot do is declare orthodoxy, cannot bind declare orthodoxy, cannot bind declare orthodoxy, cannot bind generations together, and it cannot say, generations together, and it cannot say, generations together, and it cannot say, "Hey, this is the faith that was once "Hey, this is the faith that was once "Hey, this is the faith that was once delivered." Mhm. delivered." Mhm. delivered." Mhm. >> So what does content or what does uh >> So what does content or what does uh >> So what does content or what does uh yeah what does content look like in a yeah what does content look like in a yeah what does content look like in a church? A church that is content first. church? A church that is content first. church? A church that is content first. What does that look like? Sermon series What does that look like? Sermon series What does that look like? Sermon series are optimized for relevance. Your topic are optimized for relevance. Your topic are optimized for relevance. Your topic hopping driven by like what's happening hopping driven by like what's happening hopping driven by like what's happening in culture and current events. in culture and current events. in culture and current events. >> And personal interpretation gets >> And personal interpretation gets >> And personal interpretation gets elevated over shared confession. That's elevated over shared confession. That's elevated over shared confession. That's that personalization over everything. that personalization over everything. that personalization over everything. What does canon look like in church? What does canon look like in church? What does canon look like in church? Canon looks like creeds that are recited Canon looks like creeds that are recited Canon looks like creeds that are recited together, not just affirmed. scripture together, not just affirmed. scripture together, not just affirmed. scripture that gets read publicly and regularly. that gets read publicly and regularly. that gets read publicly and regularly. Okay, there are like these communal Okay, there are like these communal Okay, there are like these communal practices, a lectionary or shared practices, a lectionary or shared practices, a lectionary or shared teaching arc. Yeah, you can get teaching arc. Yeah, you can get teaching arc. Yeah, you can get something personalized. No, we're not something personalized. No, we're not something personalized. No, we're not doing that here. We have this thing that doing that here. We have this thing that doing that here. We have this thing that is actually ours and it's not changing is actually ours and it's not changing is actually ours and it's not changing >> doctrinal boundaries that get named >> doctrinal boundaries that get named >> doctrinal boundaries that get named teaching that submits itself to teaching that submits itself to teaching that submits itself to tradition. And this one is really key, I tradition. And this one is really key, I tradition. And this one is really key, I think, multi-generational think, multi-generational think, multi-generational identity inheritance. This is something identity inheritance. This is something identity inheritance. This is something that will be insular and insulated from that will be insular and insulated from that will be insular and insulated from AI. It is sidest stepping it. It is AI. It is sidest stepping it. It is AI. It is sidest stepping it. It is outside of those boundaries which is I outside of those boundaries which is I outside of those boundaries which is I grow up in a Christian household. My grow up in a Christian household. My grow up in a Christian household. My father in your case was a pastor. I am a father in your case was a pastor. I am a father in your case was a pastor. I am a pastor.

pastor. pastor. >> Multi-generational >> Multi-generational >> Multi-generational identity and like these inheritance identity and like these inheritance identity and like these inheritance loops loops loops >> that will only exist in a few small like >> that will only exist in a few small like >> that will only exist in a few small like sectors of society. Religion is one of sectors of society. Religion is one of sectors of society. Religion is one of them. Other things like you know maybe a them. Other things like you know maybe a them. Other things like you know maybe a sports team if you like. Um national sports team if you like. Um national sports team if you like. Um national identity. Oh like I am Canadian, I am identity. Oh like I am Canadian, I am identity. Oh like I am Canadian, I am American. American. American. Um, like religion is one of those like Um, like religion is one of those like Um, like religion is one of those like select few. [clears throat] select few. [clears throat] select few. [clears throat] >> And if we can start making this pivot >> And if we can start making this pivot >> And if we can start making this pivot from content to candid cuz like you know from content to candid cuz like you know from content to candid cuz like you know when I read those like content first when I read those like content first when I read those like content first churches like oh yeah like churches like oh yeah like churches like oh yeah like >> you know Christmas at the movies okay >> you know Christmas at the movies okay >> you know Christmas at the movies okay we're going to jump on back of a current we're going to jump on back of a current we're going to jump on back of a current event or like optimized for relevance event or like optimized for relevance event or like optimized for relevance like like that's what we're doing like a like like that's what we're doing like a like like that's what we're doing like a lot right now. lot right now. lot right now. >> And I wonder about that. What has what >> And I wonder about that. What has what >> And I wonder about that. What has what has I think it's oh man the irony it has I think it's oh man the irony it has I think it's oh man the irony it it's probably the original uh it's probably the original uh it's probably the original uh communication shift that we've cited the communication shift that we've cited the communication shift that we've cited the the the invent the advent of the the the invent the advent of the the the invent the advent of the internet and the way that that connected internet and the way that that connected internet and the way that that connected us to each other the way that connected us to each other the way that connected us to each other the way that connected us to culture that really propelled the us to culture that really propelled the us to culture that really propelled the collective church certainly the western collective church certainly the western collective church certainly the western church towards this contentdriven church towards this contentdriven church towards this contentdriven um strategy frankly you know you see um strategy frankly you know you see um strategy frankly you know you see other churches doing summer at the other churches doing summer at the other churches doing summer at the movies or you see this that and the movies or you see this that and the movies or you see this that and the other and and and other and and and other and and and it it has and and the the social feeds it it has and and the the social feeds it it has and and the the social feeds have really have really have really propelled us towards being content propelled us towards being content propelled us towards being content houses uh because we feel this social houses uh because we feel this social houses uh because we feel this social pressure to be making content that goes pressure to be making content that goes pressure to be making content that goes viral and if we look if if someone viral and if we look if if someone viral and if we look if if someone listening to the show and we don't have

listening to the show and we don't have listening to the show and we don't have all the answers. We're for goodness all the answers. We're for goodness all the answers. We're for goodness sakes we're prospecting into the year sakes we're prospecting into the year sakes we're prospecting into the year 2040 like this is very we really have 2040 like this is very we really have 2040 like this is very we really have our profit hats on here for this our profit hats on here for this our profit hats on here for this episode. Um but if someone has the episode. Um but if someone has the episode. Um but if someone has the courage to look in the mirror and say courage to look in the mirror and say courage to look in the mirror and say like oh yeah this is this is what we've like oh yeah this is this is what we've like oh yeah this is this is what we've been doing. We have been um we have we been doing. We have been um we have we been doing. We have been um we have we have become a content house and in the have become a content house and in the have become a content house and in the context of what AI is exceptional at and context of what AI is exceptional at and context of what AI is exceptional at and what it's only going to get better at what it's only going to get better at what it's only going to get better at this content is going to be this content is going to be this content is going to be commoditized. Can we exist? Is it enough commoditized. Can we exist? Is it enough commoditized. Can we exist? Is it enough for us to be this going forward? Or is for us to be this going forward? Or is for us to be this going forward? Or is the church does the church have the church does the church have the church does the church have something that is is more eternal than something that is is more eternal than something that is is more eternal than just telling uh sharing a perfect sermon just telling uh sharing a perfect sermon just telling uh sharing a perfect sermon with a perfect illustration because Chad with a perfect illustration because Chad with a perfect illustration because Chad came up with it? And and I love what you came up with it? And and I love what you came up with it? And and I love what you said about um creeds that are they're said about um creeds that are they're said about um creeds that are they're they're not just true because they're they're not just true because they're they're not just true because they're old, right? It's it's not like, oh, old, right? It's it's not like, oh, old, right? It's it's not like, oh, let's just look back for the oldest let's just look back for the oldest let's just look back for the oldest thing and that must be the truest thing. thing and that must be the truest thing. thing and that must be the truest thing. It's like, well, no, there was a whole It's like, well, no, there was a whole It's like, well, no, there was a whole process where folks got together and and process where folks got together and and process where folks got together and and and declared, what do we believe about and declared, what do we believe about and declared, what do we believe about who this person is, and those words have who this person is, and those words have who this person is, and those words have got passed down from generation to got passed down from generation to got passed down from generation to generation to generation, and that is generation to generation, and that is generation to generation, and that is something that that that stands the test something that that that stands the test something that that that stands the test of time and and is ours. It it belongs of time and and is ours. It it belongs of time and and is ours. It it belongs to us. And to use language that I used to us. And to use language that I used to us. And to use language that I used last time we talked, it it binds us last time we talked, it it binds us last time we talked, it it binds us together in this family of faith. Um, together in this family of faith. Um, together in this family of faith. Um, and I know there are so many churches and I know there are so many churches and I know there are so many churches all over the world that even before this all over the world that even before this all over the world that even before this conversation, it's not like we're going conversation, it's not like we're going conversation, it's not like we're going to start some ground swell of of of to start some ground swell of of of to start some ground swell of of of culture change in church with this culture change in church with this culture change in church with this podcast, but but long before this have podcast, but but long before this have podcast, but but long before this have started touching into and and touching started touching into and and touching started touching into and and touching on these more ancient canon type

on these more ancient canon type on these more ancient canon type practices that, you know, for the practices that, you know, for the practices that, you know, for the content where where the content has left content where where the content has left content where where the content has left us lacking. we've reached back and and us lacking. we've reached back and and us lacking. we've reached back and and and reached back into tradition and back and reached back into tradition and back and reached back into tradition and back into the faith of our fathers and their into the faith of our fathers and their into the faith of our fathers and their fathers and their mothers and their fathers and their mothers and their fathers and their mothers and their mothers and and and grabbed onto mothers and and and grabbed onto mothers and and and grabbed onto something that that I don't know it's something that that I don't know it's something that that I don't know it's just just it's got a little more weight just just it's got a little more weight just just it's got a little more weight to it. And I've see churches all over to it. And I've see churches all over to it. And I've see churches all over the world the world the world fumbling and stumbling through fumbling and stumbling through fumbling and stumbling through reclaiming some of these practices, reclaiming some of these practices, reclaiming some of these practices, these traditions and and that gives me these traditions and and that gives me these traditions and and that gives me hope for for what the church what the hope for for what the church what the hope for for what the church what the what the state of the church is going to what the state of the church is going to what the state of the church is going to be in 2040 irrespective of of what be in 2040 irrespective of of what be in 2040 irrespective of of what technology is available to us. You use technology is available to us. You use technology is available to us. You use the word ironic and I think that this the word ironic and I think that this the word ironic and I think that this conversation might be a bit disorienting conversation might be a bit disorienting conversation might be a bit disorienting to folks because like not too long ago to folks because like not too long ago to folks because like not too long ago the reason we ventured into these the reason we ventured into these the reason we ventured into these threads that have been active for the threads that have been active for the threads that have been active for the past decade plus which were like it's a past decade plus which were like it's a past decade plus which were like it's a relationship not religion or the relationship not religion or the relationship not religion or the personal relationship that you have with personal relationship that you have with personal relationship that you have with God and the idea of hey we're going to God and the idea of hey we're going to God and the idea of hey we're going to look at like a sermon series that hits look at like a sermon series that hits look at like a sermon series that hits on hot button issues is because on hot button issues is because on hot button issues is because historically we only had this like hey historically we only had this like hey historically we only had this like hey we're going to preach from the church we're going to preach from the church we're going to preach from the church calendar which like you know reciting calendar which like you know reciting calendar which like you know reciting the same old things. Same old things.

the same old things. Same old things. the same old things. Same old things. And people developed like a hunger and And people developed like a hunger and And people developed like a hunger and thirst for like, well, where does this thirst for like, well, where does this thirst for like, well, where does this like intersect with like right now? like intersect with like right now? like intersect with like right now? >> And that was where this all came from. >> And that was where this all came from. >> And that was where this all came from. It's like, hey, like this is not meant It's like, hey, like this is not meant It's like, hey, like this is not meant to be like Catholicism where we like to be like Catholicism where we like to be like Catholicism where we like take this thing and we just hand it down take this thing and we just hand it down take this thing and we just hand it down and like it's all standardized only. and like it's all standardized only. and like it's all standardized only. It's like no, no, here you can have a It's like no, no, here you can have a It's like no, no, here you can have a personal rel. You can go straight to personal rel. You can go straight to personal rel. You can go straight to God, right? Like this was like an God, right? Like this was like an God, right? Like this was like an offshoot of that which obviously spans offshoot of that which obviously spans offshoot of that which obviously spans more than just a decade or two in a more than just a decade or two in a more than just a decade or two in a world where every single thing is world where every single thing is world where every single thing is personalized. personalized. personalized. It is the most commoditized thing that It is the most commoditized thing that It is the most commoditized thing that exists. exists. exists. >> If you can get back to like canon which >> If you can get back to like canon which >> If you can get back to like canon which is like this is not about what you have is like this is not about what you have is like this is not about what you have you for you and what I have for me and you for you and what I have for me and you for you and what I have for me and how everything is like only relevant to how everything is like only relevant to how everything is like only relevant to you. [clears throat] This binds us you. [clears throat] This binds us you. [clears throat] This binds us together. That will be so rare. It will together. That will be so rare. It will together. That will be so rare. It will be so unusual that it will be attractive be so unusual that it will be attractive be so unusual that it will be attractive to people because they're like yes to people because they're like yes to people because they're like yes everything is personalized. everything is personalized. everything is personalized. >> So you're saying something is true for >> So you're saying something is true for >> So you're saying something is true for all of us all of us all of us >> that like doesn't exist anymore. >> that like doesn't exist anymore. >> that like doesn't exist anymore. Previously, right, you had only Previously, right, you had only Previously, right, you had only standardized and people were like standardized and people were like standardized and people were like something that's personalized. This is something that's personalized. This is something that's personalized. This is so cool. This is brand new. This is so cool. This is brand new. This is so cool. This is brand new. This is novel. This is like the last this this novel. This is like the last this this novel. This is like the last this this lacks any novelty whatsoever. And now lacks any novelty whatsoever. And now lacks any novelty whatsoever. And now we're saying, "Hey, by the way, I know we're saying, "Hey, by the way, I know we're saying, "Hey, by the way, I know that you've only heard like chat tell that you've only heard like chat tell that you've only heard like chat tell you this about you and this and this. We you this about you and this and this. We you this about you and this and this. We have something that spans millennia that have something that spans millennia that have something that spans millennia that has been always true. The wisdom of has been always true. The wisdom of has been always true. The wisdom of scripture is for all people, for all scripture is for all people, for all scripture is for all people, for all time. Let us tell you about that cannon.

time. Let us tell you about that cannon. time. Let us tell you about that cannon. This is not content. This is orthodoxy. This is not content. This is orthodoxy. This is not content. This is orthodoxy. This is dogma. This is creed." That's This is dogma. This is creed." That's This is dogma. This is creed." That's the type of thing that will be so rare the type of thing that will be so rare the type of thing that will be so rare that it will be like attractive and that it will be like attractive and that it will be like attractive and people will be like yes the church is people will be like yes the church is people will be like yes the church is offering something that you cannot find offering something that you cannot find offering something that you cannot find anywhere else. anywhere else. anywhere else. >> Yeah. So good. >> Yeah. So good. >> Yeah. So good. >> Next up in our versus framework we have >> Next up in our versus framework we have >> Next up in our versus framework we have formation versus information. formation versus information. formation versus information. >> We had canon versus content. >> We had canon versus content. >> We had canon versus content. >> Formation versus information where here >> Formation versus information where here >> Formation versus information where here I've defined that as information changes I've defined that as information changes I've defined that as information changes what you know. Formation changes who you what you know. Formation changes who you what you know. Formation changes who you are. are. are. >> So in 2040 >> So in 2040 >> So in 2040 AI excels like we said at novelty, AI excels like we said at novelty, AI excels like we said at novelty, right? It dominates information. It is right? It dominates information. It is right? It dominates information. It is more trusted than humans for speed, for more trusted than humans for speed, for more trusted than humans for speed, for accuracy. People will do this thing, accuracy. People will do this thing, accuracy. People will do this thing, they're already doing it now, where they're already doing it now, where they're already doing it now, where someone will say something and you'll be someone will say something and you'll be someone will say something and you'll be like, well, let me just double check like, well, let me just double check like, well, let me just double check that. that. that. >> Yeah. Like this happened yesterday in my >> Yeah. Like this happened yesterday in my >> Yeah. Like this happened yesterday in my household where my daughter and I were household where my daughter and I were household where my daughter and I were playing Keepy Upy with the balloon. And playing Keepy Upy with the balloon. And playing Keepy Upy with the balloon. And she's like, I'm only going to do she's like, I'm only going to do she's like, I'm only going to do volleyball moves with this. And I was volleyball moves with this. And I was volleyball moves with this. And I was like, fine. And then I would like kick like, fine. And then I would like kick like, fine. And then I would like kick it if it got too far. She's like, you it if it got too far. She's like, you it if it got too far. She's like, you can't do that in volleyball. And I said, can't do that in volleyball. And I said, can't do that in volleyball. And I said, actually, you can use any body part in actually, you can use any body part in actually, you can use any body part in volleyball. volleyball. volleyball. >> Yeah, you can. >> Yeah, you can. >> Yeah, you can. >> And she's like, no, you can't. And I >> And she's like, no, you can't. And I >> And she's like, no, you can't. And I said, fine, whatever. She then asked her said, fine, whatever. She then asked her said, fine, whatever. She then asked her mother and her mother said, "No, you mother and her mother said, "No, you mother and her mother said, "No, you can't." And I was like, "Did I get this can't." And I was like, "Did I get this can't." And I was like, "Did I get this wrong?" So I go, "Chad, can you use any wrong?" So I go, "Chad, can you use any wrong?" So I go, "Chad, can you use any body part?" And she's like, "You're so body part?" And she's like, "You're so body part?" And she's like, "You're so smart. Of course you can." And I was smart. Of course you can." And I was smart. Of course you can." And I was like, "I [laughter] knew it. I am pretty like, "I [laughter] knew it. I am pretty like, "I [laughter] knew it. I am pretty and I'm smart." But I had to like double and I'm smart." But I had to like double and I'm smart." But I had to like double check because I was like, "Maybe I got check because I was like, "Maybe I got check because I was like, "Maybe I got this wrong." I was thinking of chat as this wrong." I was thinking of chat as this wrong." I was thinking of chat as like the ultimate authority. Why?

like the ultimate authority. Why? like the ultimate authority. Why? Because chat will index the entire Because chat will index the entire Because chat will index the entire internet. Whereas like even previously internet. Whereas like even previously internet. Whereas like even previously you would go to Google and if you found you would go to Google and if you found you would go to Google and if you found like the wrong Reddit thread or the like the wrong Reddit thread or the like the wrong Reddit thread or the wrong article written by some person wrong article written by some person wrong article written by some person that got something wrong, you could that got something wrong, you could that got something wrong, you could trust that and had the wrong trust that and had the wrong trust that and had the wrong information, information, information, >> an outdated one like volleyball rules >> an outdated one like volleyball rules >> an outdated one like volleyball rules changed. They the the National changed. They the the National changed. They the the National Volleyball Association actually just Volleyball Association actually just Volleyball Association actually just went through a major rule change. went through a major rule change. went through a major rule change. >> Sorry. And so like for formerly one >> Sorry. And so like for formerly one >> Sorry. And so like for formerly one thing about um how you could use your thing about um how you could use your thing about um how you could use your hands on a volley was true and in the hands on a volley was true and in the hands on a volley was true and in the Google era uh the self-service era you Google era uh the self-service era you Google era uh the self-service era you could you could site an outdated article could you could site an outdated article could you could site an outdated article and say something untrue about that. But and say something untrue about that. But and say something untrue about that. But chat is you know chat is already trusted chat is you know chat is already trusted chat is you know chat is already trusted I think for speed certainly for speed I think for speed certainly for speed I think for speed certainly for speed accuracy is probably [laughter] accuracy is probably [laughter] accuracy is probably [laughter] but you know almost with every new model but you know almost with every new model but you know almost with every new model you see like oh it's getting a little you see like oh it's getting a little you see like oh it's getting a little better each time and so it's it's so better each time and so it's it's so better each time and so it's it's so it's it's not just plausible it's it's it's not just plausible it's it's it's not just plausible it's probable that that even before the year probable that that even before the year probable that that even before the year 2040 we're trusting it for for accuracy 2040 we're trusting it for for accuracy 2040 we're trusting it for for accuracy as well as speed. as well as speed. as well as speed. >> I think like to truly ingest these ideas >> I think like to truly ingest these ideas >> I think like to truly ingest these ideas you have to get like a really good you have to get like a really good you have to get like a really good glimpse of like what the future society glimpse of like what the future society glimpse of like what the future society is going to be like. So this is like one is going to be like. So this is like one is going to be like. So this is like one of those small things. Right now you are of those small things. Right now you are of those small things. Right now you are aware of your hesitancy aware of your hesitancy aware of your hesitancy >> and skepticism with what chat says when >> and skepticism with what chat says when >> and skepticism with what chat says when it comes to like factchecking because it comes to like factchecking because it comes to like factchecking because you've seen the articles and you've seen you've seen the articles and you've seen you've seen the articles and you've seen it happen to yourself and you've been it happen to yourself and you've been it happen to yourself and you've been like chat wait a minute you said this like chat wait a minute you said this like chat wait a minute you said this but also this great catch. You caught me but also this great catch. You caught me but also this great catch. You caught me on another lie, right? Like we've all on another lie, right? Like we've all on another lie, right? Like we've all experienced that. That will not be true, experienced that. That will not be true, experienced that. That will not be true, [snorts] [snorts] [snorts] >> right?

>> right? >> right? >> Like that is one of the things that I'm >> Like that is one of the things that I'm >> Like that is one of the things that I'm certain of that we will trust. Now, it certain of that we will trust. Now, it certain of that we will trust. Now, it could still be lying to us, could still be lying to us, could still be lying to us, >> but we will not be able to detect it. >> but we will not be able to detect it. >> but we will not be able to detect it. And on a like societywide level, we will And on a like societywide level, we will And on a like societywide level, we will all have like implicit trust in what all have like implicit trust in what all have like implicit trust in what Chad says. Chad says. Chad says. >> So, [clears throat] what does this >> So, [clears throat] what does this >> So, [clears throat] what does this information centered church look like? information centered church look like? information centered church look like? If we're talking about formation versus If we're talking about formation versus If we're talking about formation versus information, an information centered information, an information centered information, an information centered church looks like people that are church looks like people that are church looks like people that are biblically literate, biblically literate, biblically literate, >> which is good. >> which is good. >> which is good. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> But it's not enough. >> But it's not enough. >> But it's not enough. >> People are being inspired. We have >> People are being inspired. We have >> People are being inspired. We have consumers of religious ideas. How how consumers of religious ideas. How how consumers of religious ideas. How how much is of if that is true right now? We much is of if that is true right now? We much is of if that is true right now? We have our own Christian subculture, have our own Christian subculture, have our own Christian subculture, right? Like we have our own music. We right? Like we have our own music. We right? Like we have our own music. We have our own coffee shops. We have our have our own coffee shops. We have our have our own coffee shops. We have our own run clubs like you know Christian own run clubs like you know Christian own run clubs like you know Christian dash and then insert something here. We dash and then insert something here. We dash and then insert something here. We have agreement without obedience in an have agreement without obedience in an have agreement without obedience in an information- centered church. And we information- centered church. And we information- centered church. And we have attendance without transformation. have attendance without transformation. have attendance without transformation. Okay. Okay. Okay. >> The idea is in an information centered >> The idea is in an information centered >> The idea is in an information centered church, church, church, >> you're not really required to commit too >> you're not really required to commit too >> you're not really required to commit too much. much. much. >> You can kind of just like be a part of >> You can kind of just like be a part of >> You can kind of just like be a part of it. In a formation centered church, what it. In a formation centered church, what it. In a formation centered church, what we see are practicing Christians. We see we see are practicing Christians. We see we see are practicing Christians. We see moral resilience, faithfulness under moral resilience, faithfulness under moral resilience, faithfulness under pressure, and lives that are shaped over pressure, and lives that are shaped over pressure, and lives that are shaped over time. And by the way, everything that time. And by the way, everything that time. And by the way, everything that we're talking about will be summarized we're talking about will be summarized we're talking about will be summarized in a cheat sheet that you can download in a cheat sheet that you can download in a cheat sheet that you can download in the show notes um either on YouTube in the show notes um either on YouTube in the show notes um either on YouTube or in the podcast player that you're or in the podcast player that you're or in the podcast player that you're listening to. All of this like write up listening to. All of this like write up listening to. All of this like write up is there so you can revisit it. You can is there so you can revisit it. You can is there so you can revisit it. You can see all of our notes.

see all of our notes. see all of our notes. >> So said differently, in a world where >> So said differently, in a world where >> So said differently, in a world where information is immediate, it is information is immediate, it is information is immediate, it is cognitive. Mhm. cognitive. Mhm. cognitive. Mhm. >> And it's private, right? Back to that >> And it's private, right? Back to that >> And it's private, right? Back to that personalized nature, formation is personalized nature, formation is personalized nature, formation is embodied. It is slow and it's happening embodied. It is slow and it's happening embodied. It is slow and it's happening in public. in public. in public. >> Yeah. I mean, similar to to the >> Yeah. I mean, similar to to the >> Yeah. I mean, similar to to the conversation we just had about canon conversation we just had about canon conversation we just had about canon versus content, this is this formation versus content, this is this formation versus content, this is this formation versus information thing, um has has versus information thing, um has has versus information thing, um has has been a a slow a kind of a patient for been a a slow a kind of a patient for been a a slow a kind of a patient for men that we've seen in the in the last men that we've seen in the in the last men that we've seen in the in the last handful of years in in the church handful of years in in the church handful of years in in the church culture already. Um, I can't wait for us culture already. Um, I can't wait for us culture already. Um, I can't wait for us to for Summitator to blog about this to for Summitator to blog about this to for Summitator to blog about this podcast and calling us like the next podcast and calling us like the next podcast and calling us like the next John Mark or something because what John John Mark or something because what John John Mark or something because what John Mark Comr got villainized for was Mark Comr got villainized for was Mark Comr got villainized for was >> Oh, I thought you were saying that in a >> Oh, I thought you were saying that in a >> Oh, I thought you were saying that in a charity boy. I was like, you should charity boy. I was like, you should charity boy. I was like, you should think great yourself. Call us the next think great yourself. Call us the next think great yourself. Call us the next Jesus. What he got villainized for was Jesus. What he got villainized for was Jesus. What he got villainized for was for for writing this practicing the way for for writing this practicing the way for for writing this practicing the way book which which was very popular and a book which which was very popular and a book which which was very popular and a lot of churches did the practicing the lot of churches did the practicing the lot of churches did the practicing the way course because we look around in way course because we look around in way course because we look around in churches not just from pastors on stage churches not just from pastors on stage churches not just from pastors on stage but we look around and we see like is but we look around and we see like is but we look around and we see like is this is it just Sunday morning like is this is it just Sunday morning like is this is it just Sunday morning like is that all there is to this or is there a that all there is to this or is there a that all there is to this or is there a more kind of embodied expression of this more kind of embodied expression of this more kind of embodied expression of this faith that we ought to be living faith that we ought to be living faith that we ought to be living >> and why is that happening now because >> and why is that happening now because >> and why is that happening now because we're already in a culture that is we're already in a culture that is we're already in a culture that is overloaded with information. Totally. So overloaded with information. Totally. So overloaded with information. Totally. So out of that you pivot against that. It's out of that you pivot against that. It's out of that you pivot against that. It's the pendulum swinging.

the pendulum swinging. the pendulum swinging. >> Yeah. And so and so John Mark writes >> Yeah. And so and so John Mark writes >> Yeah. And so and so John Mark writes this book and saying like yep this book and saying like yep this book and saying like yep Christianity is about practice. It's Christianity is about practice. It's Christianity is about practice. It's about doing things. It's about sharing about doing things. It's about sharing about doing things. It's about sharing meals. It's about this that and the meals. It's about this that and the meals. It's about this that and the other. And all of a sudden in the year other. And all of a sudden in the year other. And all of a sudden in the year 2024 2025 you see like just about every 2024 2025 you see like just about every 2024 2025 you see like just about every church doing practicing the way uh small church doing practicing the way uh small church doing practicing the way uh small group because innately we know like yes group because innately we know like yes group because innately we know like yes there's something more to that. If we're there's something more to that. If we're there's something more to that. If we're feeling that now this technological feeling that now this technological feeling that now this technological shift is going to accelerate that by shift is going to accelerate that by shift is going to accelerate that by by you know figures that that are just by you know figures that that are just by you know figures that that are just you can't you can't even evaluate it. you can't you can't even evaluate it. you can't you can't even evaluate it. And this is a conversation we've been And this is a conversation we've been And this is a conversation we've been having having having at our church. Um having having having at our church. Um having having having at our church. Um just a small little rural congregation. just a small little rural congregation. just a small little rural congregation. Whoever shows up on Sunday shows up. And Whoever shows up on Sunday shows up. And Whoever shows up on Sunday shows up. And sometimes it's thin and sometimes sometimes it's thin and sometimes sometimes it's thin and sometimes there's more seats filled than the there's more seats filled than the there's more seats filled than the other. But what we do every time we other. But what we do every time we other. But what we do every time we gather for worship is we meet at the gather for worship is we meet at the gather for worship is we meet at the table. And I I think the the sacraments table. And I I think the the sacraments table. And I I think the the sacraments fit into this conversation in the sense fit into this conversation in the sense fit into this conversation in the sense that they are this embodied act that that they are this embodied act that that they are this embodied act that through practice form us into the people through practice form us into the people through practice form us into the people that the like King's Kaleidoscope would that the like King's Kaleidoscope would that the like King's Kaleidoscope would say like the people were becoming who we say like the people were becoming who we say like the people were becoming who we are and and it it's it's it's the it's a are and and it it's it's it's the it's a are and and it it's it's it's the it's a throughine throughout the the the gospel throughine throughout the the the gospel throughine throughout the the the gospel story and and the Christian text that we story and and the Christian text that we story and and the Christian text that we are people in process. We are constantly are people in process. We are constantly are people in process. We are constantly in transformation. And it's one thing to in transformation. And it's one thing to in transformation. And it's one thing to cerebrally agree with something some cerebrally agree with something some cerebrally agree with something some information that someone disseminates to information that someone disseminates to information that someone disseminates to you. It's an entirely different thing to you. It's an entirely different thing to you. It's an entirely different thing to put that thing into practice and that is put that thing into practice and that is put that thing into practice and that is you are shaped by those actions through you are shaped by those actions through you are shaped by those actions through practice through process through practice through process through practice through process through formation. And so certainly the the formation. And so certainly the the formation. And so certainly the the future of the church ought to be a future of the church ought to be a future of the church ought to be a formative one. And again to what we said formative one. And again to what we said formative one. And again to what we said about the the content versus canon, it's

about the the content versus canon, it's about the the content versus canon, it's that thing that's going to be it's that that thing that's going to be it's that that thing that's going to be it's that embodied nature of the religious embodied nature of the religious embodied nature of the religious community that's going to be attractive community that's going to be attractive community that's going to be attractive to the folks who are living in a digital to the folks who are living in a digital to the folks who are living in a digital age 15 years from now who are just tired age 15 years from now who are just tired age 15 years from now who are just tired of the screens and the information and of the screens and the information and of the screens and the information and the robotics and whatever else it is. the robotics and whatever else it is. the robotics and whatever else it is. It's like I just want to rub shoulders It's like I just want to rub shoulders It's like I just want to rub shoulders with someone. I want to confess my sins with someone. I want to confess my sins with someone. I want to confess my sins to someone and I don't want the I don't to someone and I don't want the I don't to someone and I don't want the I don't want to confess my sins to the computer want to confess my sins to the computer want to confess my sins to the computer anymore and have the Jesus app just kind anymore and have the Jesus app just kind anymore and have the Jesus app just kind of gas me up and say like, "Oh yeah, of gas me up and say like, "Oh yeah, of gas me up and say like, "Oh yeah, you're trying. you're doing such a good you're trying. you're doing such a good you're trying. you're doing such a good job. I want to confess my sins to job. I want to confess my sins to job. I want to confess my sins to someone with flesh and blood and I want someone with flesh and blood and I want someone with flesh and blood and I want to cry and I want to have them cry, too. to cry and I want to have them cry, too. to cry and I want to have them cry, too. And I want to have them hold me And I want to have them hold me And I want to have them hold me accountable in the spirit of Christ. I accountable in the spirit of Christ. I accountable in the spirit of Christ. I think it's that thing that we're already think it's that thing that we're already think it's that thing that we're already starting to kind of long for and pine starting to kind of long for and pine starting to kind of long for and pine for. People are finding it in for. People are finding it in for. People are finding it in communities, but it is going to be, you communities, but it is going to be, you communities, but it is going to be, you already, it's perfect. The the rare um already, it's perfect. The the rare um already, it's perfect. The the rare um gift that we as a church can offer the gift that we as a church can offer the gift that we as a church can offer the culture in a digital age. We think we culture in a digital age. We think we culture in a digital age. We think we live in a digital age now 20 the year 20 live in a digital age now 20 the year 20 live in a digital age now 20 the year 20 240 like in whatever digital age that 240 like in whatever digital age that 240 like in whatever digital age that becomes the embodied relational becomes the embodied relational becomes the embodied relational nature of following Jesus together being nature of following Jesus together being nature of following Jesus together being formed together that is going to be the formed together that is going to be the formed together that is going to be the rarest commodity that that we could rarest commodity that that we could rarest commodity that that we could offer anyone in our neighborhoods. So it offer anyone in our neighborhoods. So it offer anyone in our neighborhoods. So it starts with canon versus content. This starts with canon versus content. This starts with canon versus content. This is the declared orthodoxy that is the declared orthodoxy that is the declared orthodoxy that downstream becomes formation versus downstream becomes formation versus downstream becomes formation versus information. Okay. Does this like information. Okay. Does this like information. Okay. Does this like orthodoxy is it just something that we orthodoxy is it just something that we orthodoxy is it just something that we hear and cognitively receive or does it hear and cognitively receive or does it hear and cognitively receive or does it shape us? No, it's meant to shape us.

shape us? No, it's meant to shape us. shape us? No, it's meant to shape us. That's formation versus information. That's formation versus information. That's formation versus information. Okay. So, is this happening like just Okay. So, is this happening like just Okay. So, is this happening like just with me? And this leads us to our third with me? And this leads us to our third with me? And this leads us to our third axiom which is communal versus axiom which is communal versus axiom which is communal versus individual. And you can see how each of individual. And you can see how each of individual. And you can see how each of these builds upon each other. So, these builds upon each other. So, these builds upon each other. So, >> hyper personalization, what does it do? >> hyper personalization, what does it do? >> hyper personalization, what does it do? What is its end game? It isolates. What is its end game? It isolates. What is its end game? It isolates. >> Your for you page looks different than >> Your for you page looks different than >> Your for you page looks different than my for you page. My doctor says I should my for you page. My doctor says I should my for you page. My doctor says I should be doing this. That's true for my body be doing this. That's true for my body be doing this. That's true for my body and based on my own labs, it's actually and based on my own labs, it's actually and based on my own labs, it's actually better if I do X, Y, and Z. For you, it better if I do X, Y, and Z. For you, it better if I do X, Y, and Z. For you, it might be better to do might be better to do might be better to do >> A, B, and C. Completely different. >> A, B, and C. Completely different. >> A, B, and C. Completely different. >> Shared standards then are a uniting >> Shared standards then are a uniting >> Shared standards then are a uniting force. force. force. >> So in 2020, in 2040, AI personalizes >> So in 2020, in 2040, AI personalizes >> So in 2020, in 2040, AI personalizes everything. The future church, and this everything. The future church, and this everything. The future church, and this is the part that I I think I really is the part that I I think I really is the part that I I think I really love, must restandardize life purposely, love, must restandardize life purposely, love, must restandardize life purposely, which will be like the exact opposite which will be like the exact opposite which will be like the exact opposite and feel backwards even when you're and feel backwards even when you're and feel backwards even when you're doing it. Because the whole promise is doing it. Because the whole promise is doing it. Because the whole promise is like, no, no, no. Like this isn't like, no, no, no. Like this isn't like, no, no, no. Like this isn't generic advice. generic advice. generic advice. >> You're getting personalized to you. It >> You're getting personalized to you. It >> You're getting personalized to you. It is more effective because it is only is more effective because it is only is more effective because it is only about what we know about you. This about what we know about you. This about what we know about you. This generic stuff like it might work, it generic stuff like it might work, it generic stuff like it might work, it might not. This personalized, it will.

might not. This personalized, it will. might not. This personalized, it will. And the church is saying like cool, And the church is saying like cool, And the church is saying like cool, cool. Here though we have standardized cool. Here though we have standardized cool. Here though we have standardized practices and from there you get shared practices and from there you get shared practices and from there you get shared vows, rhythms and disciplines and what vows, rhythms and disciplines and what vows, rhythms and disciplines and what is the endgame from there? If is the endgame from there? If is the endgame from there? If hyperpersonalization ends in isolation hyperpersonalization ends in isolation hyperpersonalization ends in isolation these standardization shared uniting these standardization shared uniting these standardization shared uniting forces bring belonging forces bring belonging forces bring belonging >> which how think about how isolated our >> which how think about how isolated our >> which how think about how isolated our society is right now. Why? because we society is right now. Why? because we society is right now. Why? because we don't have this like shared like don't have this like shared like don't have this like shared like cultural moments. You've heard this cultural moments. You've heard this cultural moments. You've heard this talked about like in terms of like talked about like in terms of like talked about like in terms of like movies and and television shows like movies and and television shows like movies and and television shows like Alex is watching different things than Alex is watching different things than Alex is watching different things than I'm watching and we are like as close as I'm watching and we are like as close as I'm watching and we are like as close as people can be. What about someone from a people can be. What about someone from a people can be. What about someone from a different culture with a different different culture with a different different culture with a different background? Like we're all experiencing background? Like we're all experiencing background? Like we're all experiencing things differently. Maybe HBO's Game of things differently. Maybe HBO's Game of things differently. Maybe HBO's Game of Thrones was like the last maybe like Thrones was like the last maybe like Thrones was like the last maybe like television show where like it was television show where like it was television show where like it was appointment viewing. We were all appointment viewing. We were all appointment viewing. We were all watching it together. Like even Stranger watching it together. Like even Stranger watching it together. Like even Stranger Things like lost that potency in the Things like lost that potency in the Things like lost that potency in the culture probably because of how long it culture probably because of how long it culture probably because of how long it took in between each seasons. Like that took in between each seasons. Like that took in between each seasons. Like that was a shared thing for like at least a was a shared thing for like at least a was a shared thing for like at least a generation or two.

generation or two. generation or two. >> Yeah. But even when Stranger Things >> Yeah. But even when Stranger Things >> Yeah. But even when Stranger Things started like Netflix was the only real started like Netflix was the only real started like Netflix was the only real streaming platform. And so now not only streaming platform. And so now not only streaming platform. And so now not only does Netflix have have so much more does Netflix have have so much more does Netflix have have so much more content on their platform, but like your content on their platform, but like your content on their platform, but like your Netflix habits are up against my Apple Netflix habits are up against my Apple Netflix habits are up against my Apple TV watching habits, up against my Amazon TV watching habits, up against my Amazon TV watching habits, up against my Amazon Prime watching habits, up against my my Prime watching habits, up against my my Prime watching habits, up against my my Disney whatever it's called Disney Plus Disney whatever it's called Disney Plus Disney whatever it's called Disney Plus watching habits. There's just so much watching habits. There's just so much watching habits. There's just so much more. As contrasted to the early 2000s, more. As contrasted to the early 2000s, more. As contrasted to the early 2000s, like what were you doing on Tuesday like what were you doing on Tuesday like what were you doing on Tuesday nights? You're watching Lost. Like, nights? You're watching Lost. Like, nights? You're watching Lost. Like, you're just you're watching Lost. And you're just you're watching Lost. And you're just you're watching Lost. And not only are you watching Lost at your not only are you watching Lost at your not only are you watching Lost at your house and I'm watching Lost at my house, house and I'm watching Lost at my house, house and I'm watching Lost at my house, but like my brother and all his friends, but like my brother and all his friends, but like my brother and all his friends, all his friends would come over on my all his friends would come over on my all his friends would come over on my house every single week, sit in our house every single week, sit in our house every single week, sit in our living room, microwave nachos and salsa living room, microwave nachos and salsa living room, microwave nachos and salsa in the microwave in the microwave in the microwave >> and watch Lost together. >> and watch Lost together. >> and watch Lost together. >> You microwave the salsa, too? >> You microwave the salsa, too? >> You microwave the salsa, too? >> They would put They would put the bowl >> They would put They would put the bowl >> They would put They would put the bowl of salsa in the microwave with cheese on of salsa in the microwave with cheese on of salsa in the microwave with cheese on top of the salsa. microwave it. So then top of the salsa. microwave it. So then top of the salsa. microwave it. So then you've got melted cheese in the salsa, you've got melted cheese in the salsa, you've got melted cheese in the salsa, hot salsa dipping. It wasn't good, but hot salsa dipping. It wasn't good, but hot salsa dipping. It wasn't good, but they did it together. Come on. Right. they did it together. Come on. Right. they did it together. Come on. Right. Absolutely. And those things don't exist Absolutely. And those things don't exist Absolutely. And those things don't exist anymore, right? Like we saw it a bit anymore, right? Like we saw it a bit anymore, right? Like we saw it a bit with the World Series this year. A lot with the World Series this year. A lot with the World Series this year. A lot of people watch that. The World Cup is of people watch that. The World Cup is of people watch that. The World Cup is coming. The Olympics, there are still coming. The Olympics, there are still coming. The Olympics, there are still moments, but there's so few and far moments, but there's so few and far moments, but there's so few and far between. Monoculture virtually does not between. Monoculture virtually does not between. Monoculture virtually does not exist. And so what the church is saying exist. And so what the church is saying exist. And so what the church is saying is like, right, everything is is like, right, everything is is like, right, everything is personalized in your life, but here we personalized in your life, but here we personalized in your life, but here we do things together. So what does an do things together. So what does an do things together. So what does an individualized church look like? There individualized church look like? There individualized church look like? There are minimal expectations because you are minimal expectations because you are minimal expectations because you might attend at this frequency. You might attend at this frequency. You might attend at this frequency. You might be involved at this level and that might be involved at this level and that might be involved at this level and that might be different from the family might be different from the family might be different from the family that's next to you. There is low

that's next to you. There is low that's next to you. There is low friction participation that dubtales friction participation that dubtales friction participation that dubtales from that. from that. from that. >> Here's the irony >> Here's the irony >> Here's the irony and we feel this now like this feels and we feel this now like this feels and we feel this now like this feels loving. loving. loving. >> It feels like hey we understand like you >> It feels like hey we understand like you >> It feels like hey we understand like you might be at a different place and I might be at a different place and I might be at a different place and I don't think that's untrue. don't think that's untrue. don't think that's untrue. But [snorts] what this does is it But [snorts] what this does is it But [snorts] what this does is it quietly dissolves community because quietly dissolves community because quietly dissolves community because everyone gets to experience it at their everyone gets to experience it at their everyone gets to experience it at their own level of commitment and at their own own level of commitment and at their own own level of commitment and at their own pace. We know that every generation, two pace. We know that every generation, two pace. We know that every generation, two out of five Sundays are what gets out of five Sundays are what gets out of five Sundays are what gets attended. True for all generations. In a attended. True for all generations. In a attended. True for all generations. In a communal church, if we shift from communal church, if we shift from communal church, if we shift from >> individualization to community, what >> individualization to community, what >> individualization to community, what does it look like? Shared vows, shared does it look like? Shared vows, shared does it look like? Shared vows, shared disciplines, shared liturgy, language, disciplines, shared liturgy, language, disciplines, shared liturgy, language, and shared expectations. This used to be and shared expectations. This used to be and shared expectations. This used to be true in church where it was like true in church where it was like true in church where it was like understood you go on Sundays and now understood you go on Sundays and now understood you go on Sundays and now because of the hyperpersonalization because of the hyperpersonalization because of the hyperpersonalization which again made sense and had virtuous which again made sense and had virtuous which again made sense and had virtuous qualities we have gotten to a point qualities we have gotten to a point qualities we have gotten to a point where hey 40% of the time people are at where hey 40% of the time people are at where hey 40% of the time people are at church and we talk about this in the in church and we talk about this in the in church and we talk about this in the in the stream of communications where we're the stream of communications where we're the stream of communications where we're like here's an announcement and I always like here's an announcement and I always like here's an announcement and I always have to emphasize just so you know have to emphasize just so you know have to emphasize just so you know >> most people aren't there every week so >> most people aren't there every week so >> most people aren't there every week so if you say this just assume more than if you say this just assume more than if you say this just assume more than half your church never even heard it half your church never even heard it half your church never even heard it right and like we have to make right and like we have to make right and like we have to make adjustments from that adjustments from that adjustments from that >> in a world where everything is hyper >> in a world where everything is hyper >> in a world where everything is hyper personalized. There will be this thirst personalized. There will be this thirst personalized. There will be this thirst for shared things. Where do I get for shared things. Where do I get for shared things. Where do I get belonging? You get belonging when belonging? You get belonging when belonging? You get belonging when everything is being experienced everything is being experienced everything is being experienced together. Like when your sports team, together. Like when your sports team, together. Like when your sports team, >> the Toronto Blue Jays are in the finals.

>> the Toronto Blue Jays are in the finals. >> the Toronto Blue Jays are in the finals. You could walk down your street at the You could walk down your street at the You could walk down your street at the time the game was on because more than time the game was on because more than time the game was on because more than half of all Canadians watched it and you half of all Canadians watched it and you half of all Canadians watched it and you could see TVs on in every room and could see TVs on in every room and could see TVs on in every room and people gathered around their television. people gathered around their television. people gathered around their television. We're all experiencing something We're all experiencing something We're all experiencing something together. We were experiencing tragedy. together. We were experiencing tragedy. together. We were experiencing tragedy. We didn't know that, but at least we We didn't know that, but at least we We didn't know that, but at least we experienced it together. experienced it together. experienced it together. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. Well, you want to move on to the last Well, you want to move on to the last Well, you want to move on to the last one for so we go from canon versus one for so we go from canon versus one for so we go from canon versus content. Orthodoxy gets declared that content. Orthodoxy gets declared that content. Orthodoxy gets declared that then leads to formation instead of just then leads to formation instead of just then leads to formation instead of just hearing information and understanding hearing information and understanding hearing information and understanding things cognitively. Orthopraxy, good things cognitively. Orthopraxy, good things cognitively. Orthopraxy, good word for that one. Thank you. word for that one. Thank you. word for that one. Thank you. >> Right practice. >> Right practice. >> Right practice. >> Very good. Then we get to communal >> Very good. Then we get to communal >> Very good. Then we get to communal versus individual. This is all happening versus individual. This is all happening versus individual. This is all happening together. And then what is like the together. And then what is like the together. And then what is like the endgame with all this? It's cost versus endgame with all this? It's cost versus endgame with all this? It's cost versus convenience. In a world convenience. In a world convenience. In a world >> where everything is easy and comfort is >> where everything is easy and comfort is >> where everything is easy and comfort is like the ultimate idol, like the ultimate idol, like the ultimate idol, places that require effort actually will places that require effort actually will places that require effort actually will become more meaningful, not less. become more meaningful, not less. become more meaningful, not less. >> And this again is the paradox that >> And this again is the paradox that >> And this again is the paradox that everything that we're discussing here is everything that we're discussing here is everything that we're discussing here is ironic. It's paradoxical. It's like the ironic. It's paradoxical. It's like the ironic. It's paradoxical. It's like the upside down kingdom, right? When I think upside down kingdom, right? When I think upside down kingdom, right? When I think that fits so neatly in because that fits so neatly in because that fits so neatly in because throughout all of history, the way of throughout all of history, the way of throughout all of history, the way of Jesus has been like do this and everyone Jesus has been like do this and everyone Jesus has been like do this and everyone else has been like I thought we did else has been like I thought we did else has been like I thought we did that. No, no, no, no, no. Yeah.

that. No, no, no, no, no. Yeah. that. No, no, no, no, no. Yeah. >> Upside down. >> Upside down. >> Upside down. >> You've heard this. I say this, >> You've heard this. I say this, >> You've heard this. I say this, we in the church have made things easy we in the church have made things easy we in the church have made things easy because we don't want to inconvenience because we don't want to inconvenience because we don't want to inconvenience people and we're like, you know what, if people and we're like, you know what, if people and we're like, you know what, if we like demand this, this, and this, we like demand this, this, and this, we like demand this, this, and this, it's actually going to turn most people it's actually going to turn most people it's actually going to turn most people off. Again, understanding, totally get off. Again, understanding, totally get off. Again, understanding, totally get it. Makes sense. If we fast forward to it. Makes sense. If we fast forward to it. Makes sense. If we fast forward to 2030 and 2040, if everything is easy and 2030 and 2040, if everything is easy and 2030 and 2040, if everything is easy and nothing requires commitment, you start nothing requires commitment, you start nothing requires commitment, you start to like just want to be a part of to like just want to be a part of to like just want to be a part of something. something. something. >> I'm just so isolated. >> I'm just so isolated. >> I'm just so isolated. >> Yeah. like nothing requires like >> Yeah. like nothing requires like >> Yeah. like nothing requires like challenge at all, right? Like there have challenge at all, right? Like there have challenge at all, right? Like there have been discussions of even like people been discussions of even like people been discussions of even like people have said already who are smarter than have said already who are smarter than have said already who are smarter than me, UBI is inevitable, universal basic me, UBI is inevitable, universal basic me, UBI is inevitable, universal basic income because if like AI graduates to income because if like AI graduates to income because if like AI graduates to where we think it will, x amount of jobs where we think it will, x amount of jobs where we think it will, x amount of jobs will become obsolete. X amount of will become obsolete. X amount of will become obsolete. X amount of industries will be obliterated or turned industries will be obliterated or turned industries will be obliterated or turned upside down completely transformed and upside down completely transformed and upside down completely transformed and uh you know economic prosperity will uh you know economic prosperity will uh you know economic prosperity will increase because of all these things and increase because of all these things and increase because of all these things and downstream of that is probably UBI okay downstream of that is probably UBI okay downstream of that is probably UBI okay so now like are we even working I I so now like are we even working I I so now like are we even working I I don't like these are the questions that don't like these are the questions that don't like these are the questions that you have to ask yourself right so where you have to ask yourself right so where you have to ask yourself right so where does meaning come from meaning comes as does meaning come from meaning comes as does meaning come from meaning comes as it always has from the narrow road right it always has from the narrow road right it always has from the narrow road right so what does a convenient driven church so what does a convenient driven church so what does a convenient driven church look like passive spectators dropin look like passive spectators dropin look like passive spectators dropin attendees attendees attendees consumer expectations, consumer expectations, consumer expectations, thin commitment is what I'm trying to thin commitment is what I'm trying to thin commitment is what I'm trying to say.

say. say. >> What does a costdriven church look like? >> What does a costdriven church look like? >> What does a costdriven church look like? Active participants, long-term Active participants, long-term Active participants, long-term faithfulness, and again, faithfulness, and again, faithfulness, and again, intergenerational continuity because now intergenerational continuity because now intergenerational continuity because now you have something that you are passing you have something that you are passing you have something that you are passing down to the next generation. And we're down to the next generation. And we're down to the next generation. And we're not trying to like to even Jesus juke not trying to like to even Jesus juke not trying to like to even Jesus juke you with this or like play play the the you with this or like play play the the you with this or like play play the the Bible card and say like, "Yeah, like Bible card and say like, "Yeah, like Bible card and say like, "Yeah, like that." But you can't get away from it that." But you can't get away from it that." But you can't get away from it like like like >> Right. Right. Actually, the way is >> Right. Right. Actually, the way is >> Right. Right. Actually, the way is narrow, narrow, narrow, >> but it's like Jesus says he's like this >> but it's like Jesus says he's like this >> but it's like Jesus says he's like this this is going to cost you everything. this is going to cost you everything. this is going to cost you everything. The the the change though is that like The the the change though is that like The the the change though is that like that will be probably like a popular that will be probably like a popular that will be probably like a popular sentiment. sentiment. sentiment. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And it's unpopular now, right? We're >> And it's unpopular now, right? We're >> And it's unpopular now, right? We're saying no, don't take your kids to saying no, don't take your kids to saying no, don't take your kids to soccer this weekend. soccer this weekend. soccer this weekend. >> Drop that. Come to church. No one's >> Drop that. Come to church. No one's >> Drop that. Come to church. No one's hearing that. hearing that. hearing that. >> Not right now. But in a world where like >> Not right now. But in a world where like >> Not right now. But in a world where like that is so scarce, people are be like that is so scarce, people are be like that is so scarce, people are be like this actually costs something. Thank God this actually costs something. Thank God this actually costs something. Thank God because literally nothing else does. because literally nothing else does. because literally nothing else does. >> Yes. And so that accentuates the point >> Yes. And so that accentuates the point >> Yes. And so that accentuates the point to the people who are pastoring, leading to the people who are pastoring, leading to the people who are pastoring, leading churches, working in churches, cleaning churches, working in churches, cleaning churches, working in churches, cleaning toilet, toilets at churches, attending toilet, toilets at churches, attending toilet, toilets at churches, attending churches for right now to maintain the churches for right now to maintain the churches for right now to maintain the standard that belonging to this standard that belonging to this standard that belonging to this community, following this man from community, following this man from community, following this man from Nazareth costs everything. Because if in Nazareth costs everything. Because if in Nazareth costs everything. Because if in in this season where it's unpopular to in this season where it's unpopular to in this season where it's unpopular to say that and you feel the friction and say that and you feel the friction and say that and you feel the friction and you just want to make you want to lower you just want to make you want to lower you just want to make you want to lower the bar so that you can raise your the bar so that you can raise your the bar so that you can raise your attendance on on Sundays if we attendance on on Sundays if we attendance on on Sundays if we compromise on that now in 10 years we compromise on that now in 10 years we compromise on that now in 10 years we will have strayed so far from that will have strayed so far from that will have strayed so far from that message that when people are looking for message that when people are looking for message that when people are looking for hey I want to do something with meaning hey I want to do something with meaning hey I want to do something with meaning I want to give myself to something we I want to give myself to something we I want to give myself to something we will have forgotten how to say it and so will have forgotten how to say it and so will have forgotten how to say it and so all the more reason to maintain the all the more reason to maintain the all the more reason to maintain the standard. Now you you use in the last um

standard. Now you you use in the last um standard. Now you you use in the last um thing we were talking about shared thing we were talking about shared thing we were talking about shared expectations. Maintain the the the expectations. Maintain the the the expectations. Maintain the the the doctrine, the orthodoxy, the the doctrine, the orthodoxy, the the doctrine, the orthodoxy, the the orthopra praxy, the shared expectations orthopra praxy, the shared expectations orthopra praxy, the shared expectations that Jesus Christ who we confess as God that Jesus Christ who we confess as God that Jesus Christ who we confess as God happened to say that belong that happened to say that belong that happened to say that belong that apprenticing to to him costs everything. apprenticing to to him costs everything. apprenticing to to him costs everything. And if we continue to tell that story And if we continue to tell that story And if we continue to tell that story now when it's unpopular, our prophetic now when it's unpopular, our prophetic now when it's unpopular, our prophetic imagination is that in 10 or 15 years imagination is that in 10 or 15 years imagination is that in 10 or 15 years when everything where the friction is when everything where the friction is when everything where the friction is removed from every area of our lives, removed from every area of our lives, removed from every area of our lives, there will be people who are longing to there will be people who are longing to there will be people who are longing to give something of themselves to a give something of themselves to a give something of themselves to a community to something to somewhere to community to something to somewhere to community to something to somewhere to feel like my life matters because maybe feel like my life matters because maybe feel like my life matters because maybe my my job has been eliminated. my I have my my job has been eliminated. my I have my my job has been eliminated. my I have I've I've my my ability to think I've I've my my ability to think I've I've my my ability to think critically has atrophied. I don't have critically has atrophied. I don't have critically has atrophied. I don't have to to work for information anymore. It's to to work for information anymore. It's to to work for information anymore. It's all just everything's there. You even all just everything's there. You even all just everything's there. You even taste it now. Like I don't have to taste it now. Like I don't have to taste it now. Like I don't have to struggle to acquire anything. It just struggle to acquire anything. It just struggle to acquire anything. It just comes to my front door. And sometimes it comes to my front door. And sometimes it comes to my front door. And sometimes it comes in less than 24 hours. I don't comes in less than 24 hours. I don't comes in less than 24 hours. I don't have to work for anything. And so, sorry have to work for anything. And so, sorry have to work for anything. And so, sorry to the vegetarians who listen to the to the vegetarians who listen to the to the vegetarians who listen to the show, but like it's part of the reason show, but like it's part of the reason show, but like it's part of the reason that that I started hunting and like that that I started hunting and like that that I started hunting and like harvest our own protein for our family harvest our own protein for our family harvest our own protein for our family because like I want to do something hard because like I want to do something hard because like I want to do something hard to acquire that meal to acquire that meal to acquire that meal >> because it has meaning.

>> because it has meaning. >> because it has meaning. >> Exactly. And now it has the most >> Exactly. And now it has the most >> Exactly. And now it has the most meaning. Now every meal we sit down for meaning. Now every meal we sit down for meaning. Now every meal we sit down for when we sit down to say grace, our our when we sit down to say grace, our our when we sit down to say grace, our our act of gratitude is like it's it's a 10 act of gratitude is like it's it's a 10 act of gratitude is like it's it's a 10 out of 10. You know, it's just like it's out of 10. You know, it's just like it's out of 10. You know, it's just like it's the the awareness of it's just so the the awareness of it's just so the the awareness of it's just so heightened. Um and people certainly heightened. Um and people certainly heightened. Um and people certainly we're not prophets. I'm joking. But we're not prophets. I'm joking. But we're not prophets. I'm joking. But certainly because we're seeing it now in certainly because we're seeing it now in certainly because we're seeing it now in a world where everything just becomes a world where everything just becomes a world where everything just becomes easy and is devoid of meaning that used easy and is devoid of meaning that used easy and is devoid of meaning that used to be assigned to things, to work, to to be assigned to things, to work, to to be assigned to things, to work, to struggle, to all these different areas, struggle, to all these different areas, struggle, to all these different areas, people are surely going to be looking people are surely going to be looking people are surely going to be looking for, hey, I I want to pay a price for for, hey, I I want to pay a price for for, hey, I I want to pay a price for something. I want to I want to give my something. I want to I want to give my something. I want to I want to give my life to something and I want someone to life to something and I want someone to life to something and I want someone to give their lives to me. I want to be give their lives to me. I want to be give their lives to me. I want to be bound to someone. I want to share in bound to someone. I want to share in bound to someone. I want to share in community. I want to do life together. community. I want to do life together. community. I want to do life together. Oh, Oh, Oh, >> yeah. Um, and so this is >> yeah. Um, and so this is >> yeah. Um, and so this is >> I I really am filled with a sense of >> I I really am filled with a sense of >> I I really am filled with a sense of hope in this conversation. This is not hope in this conversation. This is not hope in this conversation. This is not bleak to me. bleak to me. bleak to me. >> No. >> No. >> No. >> Um, I I I feel like I was really eager I >> Um, I I I feel like I was really eager I >> Um, I I I feel like I was really eager I text you this morning. I was really text you this morning. I was really text you this morning. I was really eager to sit down and have this eager to sit down and have this eager to sit down and have this conversation to chat about this because conversation to chat about this because conversation to chat about this because I see a bright light at the end of of of I see a bright light at the end of of of I see a bright light at the end of of of our our forecast here. I see a bright our our forecast here. I see a bright our our forecast here. I see a bright light in the year 2030, 2040 because light in the year 2030, 2040 because light in the year 2030, 2040 because this techn this techn this techn >> at least in the church.

>> at least in the church. >> at least in the church. >> Yeah. No, but maybe not anywhere else, >> Yeah. No, but maybe not anywhere else, >> Yeah. No, but maybe not anywhere else, >> but in medicine in in like this this >> but in medicine in in like this this >> but in medicine in in like this this technology as as any technological shift technology as as any technological shift technology as as any technological shift has, has, has, >> we've switched places [laughter] >> we've switched places [laughter] >> we've switched places [laughter] >> as many technological shifts have. >> as many technological shifts have. >> as many technological shifts have. This technology is going to serve our This technology is going to serve our This technology is going to serve our species in positive ways. It is, it has, species in positive ways. It is, it has, species in positive ways. It is, it has, it probably will. Um, but it's going to it probably will. Um, but it's going to it probably will. Um, but it's going to have negative ramifications as well. But have negative ramifications as well. But have negative ramifications as well. But we have in the church, we've always had we have in the church, we've always had we have in the church, we've always had the key to life and living. We've always the key to life and living. We've always the key to life and living. We've always had the greatest story ever told. And so had the greatest story ever told. And so had the greatest story ever told. And so we just get get to continue telling it. we just get get to continue telling it. we just get get to continue telling it. And I see a future where people long for And I see a future where people long for And I see a future where people long for it and and and and long to be formed by it and and and and long to be formed by it and and and and long to be formed by it and shaped by it and and to and to it and shaped by it and and to and to it and shaped by it and and to and to believe in Jesus. And that's that just believe in Jesus. And that's that just believe in Jesus. And that's that just sounds like good news to me. Ending on a sounds like good news to me. Ending on a sounds like good news to me. Ending on a hopeful note, if you're a doctor and I hopeful note, if you're a doctor and I hopeful note, if you're a doctor and I describe my experience with my blood describe my experience with my blood describe my experience with my blood work, the role of a doctor like the work, the role of a doctor like the work, the role of a doctor like the primary role which is like looking at primary role which is like looking at primary role which is like looking at information that none of us can read and information that none of us can read and information that none of us can read and dissecting that like that will become dissecting that like that will become dissecting that like that will become replaced and replaceable. That doesn't replaced and replaceable. That doesn't replaced and replaceable. That doesn't mean doctors will be replaced as human mean doctors will be replaced as human mean doctors will be replaced as human doctors, but like that's one industry doctors, but like that's one industry doctors, but like that's one industry where their current role will be where their current role will be where their current role will be transformed. It will look very different transformed. It will look very different transformed. It will look very different in the future. That will be true for a in the future. That will be true for a in the future. That will be true for a lot of industries. The hopeful note is lot of industries. The hopeful note is lot of industries. The hopeful note is that structurally, historically, that structurally, historically, that structurally, historically, theologically, the church is not going theologically, the church is not going theologically, the church is not going to look any different. In fact, you to look any different. In fact, you to look any different. In fact, you could make an argument, a sound could make an argument, a sound could make an argument, a sound argument, I believe that it will become argument, I believe that it will become argument, I believe that it will become more critical to a culture than it is more critical to a culture than it is more critical to a culture than it is currently.

currently. currently. >> And historically, the church has been >> And historically, the church has been >> And historically, the church has been like this crux of society, right? Like like this crux of society, right? Like like this crux of society, right? Like this cornerstone of it. And like when this cornerstone of it. And like when this cornerstone of it. And like when things got really hyperpersonalized and things got really hyperpersonalized and things got really hyperpersonalized and that was highly desirable and when that was highly desirable and when that was highly desirable and when things got hyperindividualized and that things got hyperindividualized and that things got hyperindividualized and that was highly desirable and when things got was highly desirable and when things got was highly desirable and when things got super convenienced and that was highly super convenienced and that was highly super convenienced and that was highly desirable, the church like lost a little desirable, the church like lost a little desirable, the church like lost a little bit of its like saltiness because people bit of its like saltiness because people bit of its like saltiness because people like didn't want anything that came from like didn't want anything that came from like didn't want anything that came from it. And that's outside of the church's it. And that's outside of the church's it. And that's outside of the church's control, right? And we've done what we control, right? And we've done what we control, right? And we've done what we can to like meet culture with the good can to like meet culture with the good can to like meet culture with the good news as we always have and always will news as we always have and always will news as we always have and always will throughout every era. But what I see throughout every era. But what I see throughout every era. But what I see coming is an era where like people are coming is an era where like people are coming is an era where like people are going to start like wanting what the going to start like wanting what the going to start like wanting what the church has to offer and we are insulated church has to offer and we are insulated church has to offer and we are insulated from a lot of these AI changes that are from a lot of these AI changes that are from a lot of these AI changes that are coming in an AI saturated society. And coming in an AI saturated society. And coming in an AI saturated society. And that's like the hopeful note which is that's like the hopeful note which is that's like the hopeful note which is like we just have to like say hey this like we just have to like say hey this like we just have to like say hey this is what we've always done and oh you all is what we've always done and oh you all is what we've always done and oh you all want it now finally. Oh gosh. want it now finally. Oh gosh. want it now finally. Oh gosh. >> We've been here. [laughter] >> We've been here. [laughter] >> We've been here. [laughter] >> Oh thank you. Thank you Lord. Right. Uh >> Oh thank you. Thank you Lord. Right. Uh >> Oh thank you. Thank you Lord. Right. Uh again you can download all of these again you can download all of these again you can download all of these notes in the cheat sheet that we've put notes in the cheat sheet that we've put notes in the cheat sheet that we've put in the description and uh share your in the description and uh share your in the description and uh share your voice. We'd love to hear your thoughts voice. We'd love to hear your thoughts voice. We'd love to hear your thoughts uh in the comments. Things that uh in the comments. Things that uh in the comments. Things that resonated with you, things that we resonated with you, things that we resonated with you, things that we missed, things that you think are worth missed, things that you think are worth missed, things that you think are worth adding in addition. And thank you for adding in addition. And thank you for adding in addition. And thank you for your time, attention, and trust. We'll your time, attention, and trust. We'll your time, attention, and trust. We'll talk to you next Wednesday. This episode talk to you next Wednesday. This episode talk to you next Wednesday. This episode felt like part of a bigger [music] felt like part of a bigger [music] felt like part of a bigger [music] piece.

piece. piece. >> Well, I'll tell you how I kind of like >> Well, I'll tell you how I kind of like >> Well, I'll tell you how I kind of like what what what triggered this in my mind what what what triggered this in my mind what what what triggered this in my mind on the podcast. on the podcast. on the podcast. >> Oh, live on the air. He's going to hold >> Oh, live on the air. He's going to hold >> Oh, live on the air. He's going to hold it back. it back. it back. >> Yeah. Crazy. [music] >> Yeah. Crazy. [music] >> Yeah. Crazy. [music] >> Yeah. Our real friendship and only >> Yeah. Our real friendship and only >> Yeah. Our real friendship and only experience through this episode. experience through this episode. experience through this episode. [laughter]