How Saddleback Does Online Church Differently

today we hear directly from the online today we hear directly from the online pastor of Saddleback Church his name is pastor of Saddleback Church his name is pastor of Saddleback Church his name is Jay Kanda and he's been in this role at Jay Kanda and he's been in this role at Jay Kanda and he's been in this role at Saddleback since 2013 Saddleback Church Saddleback since 2013 Saddleback Church Saddleback since 2013 Saddleback Church is one of the pioneering churches of is one of the pioneering churches of is one of the pioneering churches of online Ministry dating all the way back online Ministry dating all the way back online Ministry dating all the way back to the early 2000s surprisingly though to the early 2000s surprisingly though to the early 2000s surprisingly though they have some approaches to online they have some approaches to online they have some approaches to online church that certainly go against the church that certainly go against the church that certainly go against the conventional wisdom let's dive conventional wisdom let's dive conventional wisdom let's dive in well hey there and welcome to the pro in well hey there and welcome to the pro in well hey there and welcome to the pro Church tool show we're here to help you Church tool show we're here to help you Church tool show we're here to help you and your church navigate the biggest and your church navigate the biggest and your church navigate the biggest communication shift in 500 years I'm communication shift in 500 years I'm communication shift in 500 years I'm Brady you're your host I'm joined as Brady you're your host I'm joined as Brady you're your host I'm joined as always by my co-host it's Alexander always by my co-host it's Alexander always by my co-host it's Alexander Mills hello hello and today we're also Mills hello hello and today we're also Mills hello hello and today we're also joined by an old friend of mine online joined by an old friend of mine online joined by an old friend of mine online pastor of Saddleback Church it's Jay pastor of Saddleback Church it's Jay pastor of Saddleback Church it's Jay Kanda Jay welcome to the show I think Kanda Jay welcome to the show I think Kanda Jay welcome to the show I think this is your third appearance wow it it this is your third appearance wow it it this is your third appearance wow it it is my third appearance which I couldn't is my third appearance which I couldn't is my third appearance which I couldn't believe that it's been three but thank believe that it's been three but thank believe that it's been three but thank you for at least at least for now having you for at least at least for now having you for at least at least for now having me back on I I hope I don't say anything me back on I I hope I don't say anything me back on I I hope I don't say anything today that gets me in trouble so what today that gets me in trouble so what today that gets me in trouble so what happens when you have a podcast for 10 happens when you have a podcast for 10 happens when you have a podcast for 10 years it's like I've been on Carri show years it's like I've been on Carri show years it's like I've been on Carri show three times how well he's had a podcast three times how well he's had a podcast three times how well he's had a podcast for 10 years you know you cycle guest for 10 years you know you cycle guest for 10 years you know you cycle guest eventually uh if folks are unfamiliar um eventually uh if folks are unfamiliar um eventually uh if folks are unfamiliar um with Jay uh again online pastor at with Jay uh again online pastor at with Jay uh again online pastor at Saddleback Church I just want to read Saddleback Church I just want to read Saddleback Church I just want to read you this blurb from uh Rick Warren uh you this blurb from uh Rick Warren uh you this blurb from uh Rick Warren uh founding pastor of Saddleback and author founding pastor of Saddleback and author founding pastor of Saddleback and author of The Purpose Driven Life uh you might of The Purpose Driven Life uh you might of The Purpose Driven Life uh you might know in that book because Angela from know in that book because Angela from know in that book because Angela from The Office famously said it would be one The Office famously said it would be one The Office famously said it would be one of the three books that she'd take on a of the three books that she'd take on a of the three books that she'd take on a desert island along with the Holy desert island along with the Holy desert island along with the Holy scriptures this is what we I interrupt scriptures this is what we I interrupt scriptures this is what we I interrupt sorry but like I just showed that clip sorry but like I just showed that clip sorry but like I just showed that clip to my kids and they couldn't believe it to my kids and they couldn't believe it to my kids and they couldn't believe it that's amazing I I was watching that

that's amazing I I was watching that that's amazing I I was watching that episode last night and I was like what a episode last night and I was like what a episode last night and I was like what a crossover like Purpose Driven Life was crossover like Purpose Driven Life was crossover like Purpose Driven Life was so huge great book Great Book quote from so huge great book Great Book quote from so huge great book Great Book quote from Pastor Rick I don't know anyone else who Pastor Rick I don't know anyone else who Pastor Rick I don't know anyone else who has had more experience and has had more experience and has had more experience and understanding of the strengths and understanding of the strengths and understanding of the strengths and limitations of a local church digital limitations of a local church digital limitations of a local church digital Ministry than Jay cron so you are Ministry than Jay cron so you are Ministry than Jay cron so you are talking we are speaking and you are talking we are speaking and you are talking we are speaking and you are listening to the OG of online Church you listening to the OG of online Church you listening to the OG of online Church you read the endorsement that I gave to Jay read the endorsement that I gave to Jay read the endorsement that I gave to Jay for his book it said before online for his book it said before online for his book it said before online church was ever a thing I met an online church was ever a thing I met an online church was ever a thing I met an online Church Pastor his name was Church Pastor his name was Church Pastor his name was Jay and for whatever reason he actually Jay and for whatever reason he actually Jay and for whatever reason he actually put that on the book because you know put that on the book because you know put that on the book because you know all things considered I think it's not all things considered I think it's not all things considered I think it's not the greatest endorsement Jay your your the greatest endorsement Jay your your the greatest endorsement Jay your your book is a little bit of a paradox ironic book is a little bit of a paradox ironic book is a little bit of a paradox ironic hypocritical some might even say some hypocritical some might even say some hypocritical some might even say some are saying the title of the book is are saying the title of the book is are saying the title of the book is online church is not the answer so you online church is not the answer so you online church is not the answer so you know please defend yourself as an online know please defend yourself as an online know please defend yourself as an online Pastor I know I I I will say honestly Pastor I know I I I will say honestly Pastor I know I I I will say honestly that I really wrestled with this title that I really wrestled with this title that I really wrestled with this title um and there are a couple online Pastor um and there are a couple online Pastor um and there are a couple online Pastor friends that I feel like don't text me friends that I feel like don't text me friends that I feel like don't text me back anymore um and no I mean it just back anymore um and no I mean it just back anymore um and no I mean it just comes from this idea that I'm a pastor comes from this idea that I'm a pastor comes from this idea that I'm a pastor at a at a local church yes we are a very at a at a local church yes we are a very at a at a local church yes we are a very big church and I'm an online pastor but big church and I'm an online pastor but big church and I'm an online pastor but as somebody who talks to pastors and as somebody who talks to pastors and as somebody who talks to pastors and from all around the world and and from all around the world and and from all around the world and and encouraging people like I just see I encouraging people like I just see I encouraging people like I just see I don't want people thinking online Church don't want people thinking online Church don't want people thinking online Church replaces physical church at all and and replaces physical church at all and and replaces physical church at all and and um I'm really playing with that word and

um I'm really playing with that word and um I'm really playing with that word and that phrase of like hey I believe in that phrase of like hey I believe in that phrase of like hey I believe in digital I believe what happens online digital I believe what happens online digital I believe what happens online but let's not act like online is but let's not act like online is but let's not act like online is replacing physical connection and so I'm replacing physical connection and so I'm replacing physical connection and so I'm really trying to with the book even really trying to with the book even really trying to with the book even convince people that I really I wrote it convince people that I really I wrote it convince people that I really I wrote it to convince the unbeliever of digital in to convince the unbeliever of digital in to convince the unbeliever of digital in the role so as they read it they think the role so as they read it they think the role so as they read it they think I'm on their side and as they read it I'm on their side and as they read it I'm on their side and as they read it they're kind of like oh oh you can be a they're kind of like oh oh you can be a they're kind of like oh oh you can be a champion of local community in person champion of local community in person champion of local community in person while also embracing digital and these while also embracing digital and these while also embracing digital and these things can be can work together so yeah things can be can work together so yeah things can be can work together so yeah I feel like we could break up the I feel like we could break up the I feel like we could break up the history of online Church into a few eras history of online Church into a few eras history of online Church into a few eras there is the postco era that we are in there is the postco era that we are in there is the postco era that we are in now there was the covid era that was now there was the covid era that was now there was the covid era that was this this this massive Sprint for so many massive Sprint for so many massive Sprint for so many churches Alex is included yeah online churches Alex is included yeah online churches Alex is included yeah online only for a lot of churches unprecedented only for a lot of churches unprecedented only for a lot of churches unprecedented get online for the first time and like get online for the first time and like get online for the first time and like accept donations online for the first accept donations online for the first accept donations online for the first time and stream and record online for time and stream and record online for time and stream and record online for the first time then there was the preco the first time then there was the preco the first time then there was the preco era where like I was like Hey live era where like I was like Hey live era where like I was like Hey live streaming I don't know like maybe invest streaming I don't know like maybe invest streaming I don't know like maybe invest elsewhere churches like sure it can be elsewhere churches like sure it can be elsewhere churches like sure it can be useful but it's not the be all and end useful but it's not the be all and end useful but it's not the be all and end all and then there's the pre preco era all and then there's the pre preco era all and then there's the pre preco era and that was when only Jay was doing and that was when only Jay was doing and that was when only Jay was doing online church right and so Jay I would online church right and so Jay I would online church right and so Jay I would really just like to hear you tell a bit really just like to hear you tell a bit really just like to hear you tell a bit of the story of what was saddleback's of the story of what was saddleback's of the story of what was saddleback's journey to diving into online Church journey to diving into online Church journey to diving into online Church back when that wasn't a thing and there back when that wasn't a thing and there back when that wasn't a thing and there was no blueprint for it that other

was no blueprint for it that other was no blueprint for it that other churches had laid out like you were churches had laid out like you were churches had laid out like you were pioneering that for the rest of us pioneering that for the rest of us pioneering that for the rest of us please tell us a bit of that history please tell us a bit of that history please tell us a bit of that history yeah I had a I had one of my one of my yeah I had a I had one of my one of my yeah I had a I had one of my one of my professors actually in um Bible College professors actually in um Bible College professors actually in um Bible College he reached out to me during covid and he he reached out to me during covid and he he reached out to me during covid and he said this thing that I've like kind of said this thing that I've like kind of said this thing that I've like kind of latched on to pastors of church under latched on to pastors of church under latched on to pastors of church under 500 people but he said Jay like pre-co 500 people but he said Jay like pre-co 500 people but he said Jay like pre-co we were like flirting with digital covid we were like flirting with digital covid we were like flirting with digital covid it was like a shotgun wedding and postco it was like a shotgun wedding and postco it was like a shotgun wedding and postco it's is this going to be a healthy or it's is this going to be a healthy or it's is this going to be a healthy or unhealthy unhealthy unhealthy relationship and I really locked on to relationship and I really locked on to relationship and I really locked on to that and I I thought Bill really nailed that and I I thought Bill really nailed that and I I thought Bill really nailed it when he said that to me because it's it when he said that to me because it's it when he said that to me because it's like generally how people have felt and like generally how people have felt and like generally how people have felt and so really the point of my book and even so really the point of my book and even so really the point of my book and even podcasts like yours is trying to podcasts like yours is trying to podcasts like yours is trying to navigate some of these Waters that are navigate some of these Waters that are navigate some of these Waters that are really confusing and hard but yeah our really confusing and hard but yeah our really confusing and hard but yeah our church we were one of the first like church we were one of the first like church we were one of the first like they started streaming when I was in they started streaming when I was in they started streaming when I was in high school so 2003 2004 when it was high school so 2003 2004 when it was high school so 2003 2004 when it was really hard um I one of my early really hard um I one of my early really hard um I one of my early chapters in the book actually I I sent chapters in the book actually I I sent chapters in the book actually I I sent it to uh Rick uh and he gave me a bunch it to uh Rick uh and he gave me a bunch it to uh Rick uh and he gave me a bunch of history that I didn't even know and of history that I didn't even know and of history that I didn't even know and he he told me I could include a bunch in he he told me I could include a bunch in he he told me I could include a bunch in the book and so it was really fun to the book and so it was really fun to the book and so it was really fun to hear some of the things our church since hear some of the things our church since hear some of the things our church since it started in the 80s in Orange County it started in the 80s in Orange County it started in the 80s in Orange County where there's a lot of technology and where there's a lot of technology and where there's a lot of technology and and money and resources we had a lot of and money and resources we had a lot of and money and resources we had a lot of these people at our church that could these people at our church that could these people at our church that could pull some of this stuff off we were one pull some of this stuff off we were one pull some of this stuff off we were one of the early churches to have a website of the early churches to have a website of the early churches to have a website uh Rick famously tells this story of he uh Rick famously tells this story of he uh Rick famously tells this story of he bought and I tell this story in in the bought and I tell this story in in the bought and I tell this story in in the book too cuz he allowed me to but he book too cuz he allowed me to but he book too cuz he allowed me to but he said in um I think it was the late ' 80s said in um I think it was the late ' 80s said in um I think it was the late ' 80s or early '90s we bought three computers

or early '90s we bought three computers or early '90s we bought three computers for the church and there's there was a for the church and there's there was a for the church and there's there was a couple people on staff that said that it couple people on staff that said that it couple people on staff that said that it was a waste of money and literally told was a waste of money and literally told was a waste of money and literally told Rick that you will never need more than Rick that you will never need more than Rick that you will never need more than like two computers ever in the history like two computers ever in the history like two computers ever in the history of of of Saddleback and which was really funny to Saddleback and which was really funny to Saddleback and which was really funny to hear obviously now and and so Rick Rick hear obviously now and and so Rick Rick hear obviously now and and so Rick Rick and our church had have been a Pioneers and our church had have been a Pioneers and our church had have been a Pioneers in this early on and early on it was in this early on and early on it was in this early on and early on it was just streaming it was literally for just streaming it was literally for just streaming it was literally for people cuz we're in Orange County people cuz we're in Orange County people cuz we're in Orange County California a lot of people go to John California a lot of people go to John California a lot of people go to John Wayne jump on an airplane and they're Wayne jump on an airplane and they're Wayne jump on an airplane and they're gone for work and so we wanted to gone for work and so we wanted to gone for work and so we wanted to provide a way for people to stay engaged provide a way for people to stay engaged provide a way for people to stay engaged when they weren't here in the early when they weren't here in the early when they weren't here in the early 2000s and then when 2009 2010 what 2000s and then when 2009 2010 what 2000s and then when 2009 2010 what happened was you started to get these happened was you started to get these happened was you started to get these social experiences like you had the social experiences like you had the social experiences like you had the Facebooks you had uh you know Skypes Facebooks you had uh you know Skypes Facebooks you had uh you know Skypes people started to interact obviously people started to interact obviously people started to interact obviously early message boards and a lot of early early message boards and a lot of early early message boards and a lot of early online Church however you want to call online Church however you want to call online Church however you want to call it were um message boards commun it were um message boards commun it were um message boards commun commities you know even before us you commities you know even before us you commities you know even before us you had stuff in the early 9s one of the had stuff in the early 9s one of the had stuff in the early 9s one of the early online Church experiences was early online Church experiences was early online Church experiences was actually for people who were blind um actually for people who were blind um actually for people who were blind um and and and so what happened for us in and and and so what happened for us in and and and so what happened for us in the in 2010 2009 we started to the in 2010 2009 we started to the in 2010 2009 we started to experiment with online groups we had a experiment with online groups we had a experiment with online groups we had a platform called talkbox that we use that platform called talkbox that we use that platform called talkbox that we use that you can embed on your website and you you can embed on your website and you you can embed on your website and you can turn on video kind of like a chat can turn on video kind of like a chat can turn on video kind of like a chat rouette a little bit experience and rouette a little bit experience and rouette a little bit experience and that's actually for us where it really that's actually for us where it really that's actually for us where it really unlocked it was like okay streaming is unlocked it was like okay streaming is unlocked it was like okay streaming is just streaming just streaming just streaming uh we're not really like uh Rick never uh we're not really like uh Rick never uh we're not really like uh Rick never wanted to be a tele evangelist that was wanted to be a tele evangelist that was wanted to be a tele evangelist that was never his intention um and so he didn't

never his intention um and so he didn't never his intention um and so he didn't really care about streaming I could talk really care about streaming I could talk really care about streaming I could talk to him about streaming or and he was to him about streaming or and he was to him about streaming or and he was like ah you know kind of like I could do like ah you know kind of like I could do like ah you know kind of like I could do that in other ways but when we started that in other ways but when we started that in other ways but when we started to actually have online groups where to actually have online groups where to actually have online groups where people met with people and there was people met with people and there was people met with people and there was discipleship happening that's when our discipleship happening that's when our discipleship happening that's when our leadership started to really unlock and leadership started to really unlock and leadership started to really unlock and so I got hired full-time as the online so I got hired full-time as the online so I got hired full-time as the online Pastor in Pastor in Pastor in 2013 and really my job was to be over 2013 and really my job was to be over 2013 and really my job was to be over streaming of their services like streaming of their services like streaming of their services like follow-ups and all this stuff and then follow-ups and all this stuff and then follow-ups and all this stuff and then just try to grow our online groups what just try to grow our online groups what just try to grow our online groups what does that mean and I really loved that does that mean and I really loved that does that mean and I really loved that it wasn't figured out like I was like oh it wasn't figured out like I was like oh it wasn't figured out like I was like oh how do we do this and I would look at how do we do this and I would look at how do we do this and I would look at large churches that were doing this like large churches that were doing this like large churches that were doing this like the life churches and the elevations and the life churches and the elevations and the life churches and the elevations and whoever else you know was part of that whoever else you know was part of that whoever else you know was part of that and how do I connect it to our local and how do I connect it to our local and how do I connect it to our local strategy and that's that's what we've strategy and that's that's what we've strategy and that's that's what we've been on a journey of and and really it's been on a journey of and and really it's been on a journey of and and really it's it changes and now we're even in a new it changes and now we're even in a new it changes and now we're even in a new season with a new pastor and now I'm season with a new pastor and now I'm season with a new pastor and now I'm learning okay what does it look like for learning okay what does it look like for learning okay what does it look like for the next phase of our church and a lot the next phase of our church and a lot the next phase of our church and a lot of it has to do with micro sites and we of it has to do with micro sites and we of it has to do with micro sites and we could talk about whatever but uh yeah could talk about whatever but uh yeah could talk about whatever but uh yeah that's kind of the the short story of that's kind of the the short story of that's kind of the the short story of kind of the history so it sounds like kind of the history so it sounds like kind of the history so it sounds like top down in a leadership sense Pastor top down in a leadership sense Pastor top down in a leadership sense Pastor Rick was clear I I'm not trying to do Rick was clear I I'm not trying to do Rick was clear I I'm not trying to do the internet version of a televangelist the internet version of a televangelist the internet version of a televangelist where we're getting as many eyeballs on where we're getting as many eyeballs on where we're getting as many eyeballs on the screen as possible and it's funny the screen as possible and it's funny the screen as possible and it's funny even you using the reference of the even you using the reference of the even you using the reference of the televangelist because you know in that televangelist because you know in that televangelist because you know in that you know know 2000s early 2010s that you know know 2000s early 2010s that you know know 2000s early 2010s that there was no like oh YouTube subscri there was no like oh YouTube subscri there was no like oh YouTube subscri like a big YouTuber or an influencer the

like a big YouTuber or an influencer the like a big YouTuber or an influencer the only parallel you could draw was what only parallel you could draw was what only parallel you could draw was what was this like for television yeah and was this like for television yeah and was this like for television yeah and that was the televangelist and so he's that was the televangelist and so he's that was the televangelist and so he's being very clear this isn't what we want being very clear this isn't what we want being very clear this isn't what we want that can be the entry point but only so that can be the entry point but only so that can be the entry point but only so long as the ultimate destination is long as the ultimate destination is long as the ultimate destination is people getting involved in groups people getting involved in groups people getting involved in groups discipleship next steps taking place discipleship next steps taking place discipleship next steps taking place spiritual formation spiritual formation spiritual formation how were these early online groups being how were these early online groups being how were these early online groups being facilitated I I I can't imagine there facilitated I I I can't imagine there facilitated I I I can't imagine there were Zoom calls happening uh was was it were Zoom calls happening uh was was it were Zoom calls happening uh was was it Skype before they fumbled the bag or I Skype before they fumbled the bag or I Skype before they fumbled the bag or I know well and and that's that's part of know well and and that's that's part of know well and and that's that's part of it was this is why you know if you fast it was this is why you know if you fast it was this is why you know if you fast forward to today one of the pros of forward to today one of the pros of forward to today one of the pros of technology today is that the friction or technology today is that the friction or technology today is that the friction or barrier of Entry is a lot easier and so barrier of Entry is a lot easier and so barrier of Entry is a lot easier and so that creates new problems early on the that creates new problems early on the that creates new problems early on the reason why you had less people doing reason why you had less people doing reason why you had less people doing online groups online Church whatever you online groups online Church whatever you online groups online Church whatever you want to call is because it was a higher want to call is because it was a higher want to call is because it was a higher you know bar of entry and so we had to you know bar of entry and so we had to you know bar of entry and so we had to wrestle through what does this look like wrestle through what does this look like wrestle through what does this look like and really the early the early versions and really the early the early versions and really the early the early versions of this Skype you know everybody you of this Skype you know everybody you of this Skype you know everybody you know I say this because I'm in my alert know I say this because I'm in my alert know I say this because I'm in my alert 30s but people probably don't remember 30s but people probably don't remember 30s but people probably don't remember Skype very much but you had to have Skype very much but you had to have Skype very much but you had to have contacts in your list and you had to contacts in your list and you had to contacts in your list and you had to call people and it was it wasn't the call people and it was it wasn't the call people and it was it wasn't the seamless experience Zoom what really seamless experience Zoom what really seamless experience Zoom what really made it compelling and scaled was it was made it compelling and scaled was it was made it compelling and scaled was it was a link click and you join and it was a link click and you join and it was a link click and you join and it was very seamless so Zoom scaled our online very seamless so Zoom scaled our online very seamless so Zoom scaled our online groups in a whole another area early on groups in a whole another area early on groups in a whole another area early on the way we did that type of single click the way we did that type of single click the way we did that type of single click was you had a URL on our website you was you had a URL on our website you was you had a URL on our website you were given and anybody who visited to were given and anybody who visited to were given and anybody who visited to that URL could enter into that video

that URL could enter into that video that URL could enter into that video experience and that that platform that I experience and that that platform that I experience and that that platform that I was referencing talkbox is that tool it was referencing talkbox is that tool it was referencing talkbox is that tool it was embedded into our website and there was embedded into our website and there was embedded into our website and there was somebody at our church Tina Brown at was somebody at our church Tina Brown at was somebody at our church Tina Brown at the time who launched this and it was a the time who launched this and it was a the time who launched this and it was a custombuilt thing it was all like in custombuilt thing it was all like in custombuilt thing it was all like in browser so it was very laggy you know um browser so it was very laggy you know um browser so it was very laggy you know um because of that and you had security because of that and you had security because of that and you had security issues because anybody could just find issues because anybody could just find issues because anybody could just find this link and join and it wasn't and it this link and join and it wasn't and it this link and join and it wasn't and it had capacity issues I think we can only had capacity issues I think we can only had capacity issues I think we can only have eight people in a group at a time have eight people in a group at a time have eight people in a group at a time and you know what Zoom does really well and you know what Zoom does really well and you know what Zoom does really well it it balances out things there's you it it balances out things there's you it it balances out things there's you know it it it generally is optimized know it it it generally is optimized know it it it generally is optimized this version was very wonky I will say this version was very wonky I will say this version was very wonky I will say and and a lot of the people that joined and and a lot of the people that joined and and a lot of the people that joined were just early adopters and but you were just early adopters and but you were just early adopters and but you started to see a glimpse of oh like I started to see a glimpse of oh like I started to see a glimpse of oh like I can actually hang out with these people can actually hang out with these people can actually hang out with these people like it's crazy this morning we do a like it's crazy this morning we do a like it's crazy this morning we do a weekly 30 minute prayer call with our weekly 30 minute prayer call with our weekly 30 minute prayer call with our online community where we invite people online community where we invite people online community where we invite people where we pray every week and we do it on where we pray every week and we do it on where we pray every week and we do it on zoom and you know we had 22 people this zoom and you know we had 22 people this zoom and you know we had 22 people this morning we just pray for 30 minutes and morning we just pray for 30 minutes and morning we just pray for 30 minutes and I'm just I'm always blown away that we I'm just I'm always blown away that we I'm just I'm always blown away that we have people all around the world we're have people all around the world we're have people all around the world we're praying for 30 minutes and how seamless praying for 30 minutes and how seamless praying for 30 minutes and how seamless Zoom is you really forget people people Zoom is you really forget people people Zoom is you really forget people people just don't realize like how an amazing just don't realize like how an amazing just don't realize like how an amazing tool Zoom is people you can rail on how tool Zoom is people you can rail on how tool Zoom is people you can rail on how it's not in person or whatever but like it's not in person or whatever but like it's not in person or whatever but like it's also really great for a lot of it's also really great for a lot of it's also really great for a lot of things yeah things yeah things yeah Jay I that history is so valuable I'm so Jay I that history is so valuable I'm so Jay I that history is so valuable I'm so glad you Shar that not just with us but glad you Shar that not just with us but glad you Shar that not just with us but with you know the whole audience with you know the whole audience with you know the whole audience listening what I hear you saying is back listening what I hear you saying is back listening what I hear you saying is back like in the in the 2013 uh era when your like in the in the 2013 uh era when your like in the in the 2013 uh era when your online digital strategy at Saddleback

online digital strategy at Saddleback online digital strategy at Saddleback kind of evolved from just um um passive kind of evolved from just um um passive kind of evolved from just um um passive spectatorship in watching live streams spectatorship in watching live streams spectatorship in watching live streams and actually transition to you know I'm and actually transition to you know I'm and actually transition to you know I'm serving folks in um active participation serving folks in um active participation serving folks in um active participation through groups it sounds like that's through groups it sounds like that's through groups it sounds like that's when your church decided to double down when your church decided to double down when your church decided to double down and invest in in the online Ministry in and invest in in the online Ministry in and invest in in the online Ministry in hiring you as as an online as as a hiring you as as an online as as a hiring you as as an online as as a digital Pastor now you're pastoring at digital Pastor now you're pastoring at digital Pastor now you're pastoring at at one of the largest churches in at one of the largest churches in at one of the largest churches in America and most folks listening to this America and most folks listening to this America and most folks listening to this show are pastoring in some of the show are pastoring in some of the show are pastoring in some of the smaller churches in America so I do want smaller churches in America so I do want smaller churches in America so I do want to speak to to churches of that size in to speak to to churches of that size in to speak to to churches of that size in a moment but first can you tell me just a moment but first can you tell me just a moment but first can you tell me just briefly like in addition to zoom you briefly like in addition to zoom you briefly like in addition to zoom you just mentioned Zoom what does you know just mentioned Zoom what does you know just mentioned Zoom what does you know active participation in online Ministry active participation in online Ministry active participation in online Ministry currently look like at Saddleback like currently look like at Saddleback like currently look like at Saddleback like what are the Avenues that folks can what are the Avenues that folks can what are the Avenues that folks can participate in the life and community at participate in the life and community at participate in the life and community at your church online and then I'd love to your church online and then I'd love to your church online and then I'd love to talk a little bit more uh in a moment talk a little bit more uh in a moment talk a little bit more uh in a moment about what that could look like for about what that could look like for about what that could look like for smaller churches as well yeah so for us smaller churches as well yeah so for us smaller churches as well yeah so for us and again everybody has their you know I and again everybody has their you know I and again everybody has their you know I I will always encourage every Pastor I will always encourage every Pastor I will always encourage every Pastor every church ministry whatever you're every church ministry whatever you're every church ministry whatever you're doing you have your own Vision that doing you have your own Vision that doing you have your own Vision that God's put on your head you know on your God's put on your head you know on your God's put on your head you know on your mind and your own execution of you know mind and your own execution of you know mind and your own execution of you know me Ministry methodology what whatever me Ministry methodology what whatever me Ministry methodology what whatever that means for us one of the things that that means for us one of the things that that means for us one of the things that we do at a high level is we moved away we do at a high level is we moved away we do at a high level is we moved away from campus language so I'm not the from campus language so I'm not the from campus language so I'm not the online campus Pastor I'm the online online campus Pastor I'm the online online campus Pastor I'm the online community pastor and one of those community pastor and one of those community pastor and one of those reasons is because we have 20 locations reasons is because we have 20 locations reasons is because we have 20 locations that we call campuses and we don't want that we call campuses and we don't want that we call campuses and we don't want people thinking if you're engaging people thinking if you're engaging people thinking if you're engaging online you're part of a campus you're online you're part of a campus you're online you're part of a campus you're just part of a community and really our

just part of a community and really our just part of a community and really our online community is a collective of online community is a collective of online community is a collective of local and Far Away people and they're local and Far Away people and they're local and Far Away people and they're engaging online so we see the online engaging online so we see the online engaging online so we see the online community kind of the collective of like community kind of the collective of like community kind of the collective of like big S Saddleback in a way and that was a big S Saddleback in a way and that was a big S Saddleback in a way and that was a very strategic thing that I did to kind very strategic thing that I did to kind very strategic thing that I did to kind of move towards that because I I didn't of move towards that because I I didn't of move towards that because I I didn't want people thinking like we had this want people thinking like we had this want people thinking like we had this weird thing where people locally that weird thing where people locally that weird thing where people locally that were part of maybe our largest campus were part of maybe our largest campus were part of maybe our largest campus like forest and they would watch online like forest and they would watch online like forest and they would watch online and they're part of the online campus and they're part of the online campus and they're part of the online campus that week I don't want to see that that week I don't want to see that that week I don't want to see that disengagement I want you to like you disengagement I want you to like you disengagement I want you to like you know you're part of your local campus know you're part of your local campus know you're part of your local campus you just happen to be engaging online you just happen to be engaging online you just happen to be engaging online and and really we don't we want campus and and really we don't we want campus and and really we don't we want campus language to be a language to be a language to be a destination and and we don't want people destination and and we don't want people destination and and we don't want people thinking online campus is a destination thinking online campus is a destination thinking online campus is a destination now this might be a small Nuance now this might be a small Nuance now this might be a small Nuance somebody might be listening why does somebody might be listening why does somebody might be listening why does that matter for us it's just it's that matter for us it's just it's that matter for us it's just it's education thing and so we move towards education thing and so we move towards education thing and so we move towards online community online community is a online community online community is a online community online community is a collective of all of our campuses and so collective of all of our campuses and so collective of all of our campuses and so what that means is that you we have what that means is that you we have what that means is that you we have services online that we create for services online that we create for services online that we create for YouTube for example and so where we talk YouTube for example and so where we talk YouTube for example and so where we talk to those online to take next steps so to those online to take next steps so to those online to take next steps so obviously the normal stuff where you obviously the normal stuff where you obviously the normal stuff where you could fill out response cards and and so could fill out response cards and and so could fill out response cards and and so forth but when you move deeper in what forth but when you move deeper in what forth but when you move deeper in what we kind of have is this slippery slope I we kind of have is this slippery slope I we kind of have is this slippery slope I would say where you can start down our would say where you can start down our would say where you can start down our kind of Engagement pathway so the first kind of Engagement pathway so the first kind of Engagement pathway so the first step is we have something called newc step is we have something called newc step is we have something called newc connect where we do it on Zoom it's once connect where we do it on Zoom it's once connect where we do it on Zoom it's once a month it's a 15minute come hang out a month it's a 15minute come hang out a month it's a 15minute come hang out and meet us and hear your story and and meet us and hear your story and and meet us and hear your story and we'll talk we'll hear their story and we'll talk we'll hear their story and we'll talk we'll hear their story and tell them how they can get engaged so tell them how they can get engaged so tell them how they can get engaged so again digital you move into the zoom again digital you move into the zoom again digital you move into the zoom then every month we host something then every month we host something then every month we host something called activate one it's a 2hour zoom

called activate one it's a 2hour zoom called activate one it's a 2hour zoom class where you learn about our church class where you learn about our church class where you learn about our church and you commit to becoming a member and and you commit to becoming a member and and you commit to becoming a member and in that class you hang out with us we do in that class you hang out with us we do in that class you hang out with us we do breakout rooms three times throughout breakout rooms three times throughout breakout rooms three times throughout throughout this time together where you throughout this time together where you throughout this time together where you connect with other people so we have 30 connect with other people so we have 30 connect with other people so we have 30 people you're going to have a couple people you're going to have a couple people you're going to have a couple times with you interact we're trying to times with you interact we're trying to times with you interact we're trying to move people from stream as a viewer to move people from stream as a viewer to move people from stream as a viewer to on video meeting other people so a lot on video meeting other people so a lot on video meeting other people so a lot of my our work as a team is we're not of my our work as a team is we're not of my our work as a team is we're not really trying to like triple quadruple really trying to like triple quadruple really trying to like triple quadruple our views on the weekend you there's our views on the weekend you there's our views on the weekend you there's things we do but a lot of our time is things we do but a lot of our time is things we do but a lot of our time is just how do I meet people and you know just how do I meet people and you know just how do I meet people and you know some a mantra we say a lot is if I can some a mantra we say a lot is if I can some a mantra we say a lot is if I can just meet with you know 10 people a just meet with you know 10 people a just meet with you know 10 people a month and I stack that month over month month and I stack that month over month month and I stack that month over month now I'm actually discipling pastoring now I'm actually discipling pastoring now I'm actually discipling pastoring people and I'm not just getting a bunch people and I'm not just getting a bunch people and I'm not just getting a bunch of views and so like the Zoom connect of views and so like the Zoom connect of views and so like the Zoom connect newcomers connect is one thing or newcomers connect is one thing or newcomers connect is one thing or monthly activate and then what happens monthly activate and then what happens monthly activate and then what happens is the thing that's different about our is the thing that's different about our is the thing that's different about our online community you know we have online community you know we have online community you know we have Ministries we have zoom groups we have Ministries we have zoom groups we have Ministries we have zoom groups we have hundreds of Zoom groups that you can hundreds of Zoom groups that you can hundreds of Zoom groups that you can join and so forth but what happens join and so forth but what happens join and so forth but what happens online is we actually say hey to become online is we actually say hey to become online is we actually say hey to become a member online or remote membership if a member online or remote membership if a member online or remote membership if you live local we want you to become you live local we want you to become you live local we want you to become member of a local campus and if you're member of a local campus and if you're member of a local campus and if you're becoming a member online what you're becoming a member online what you're becoming a member online what you're committing towards is working towards committing towards is working towards committing towards is working towards physical community and we talk about physical community and we talk about physical community and we talk about this we and I usually say in our in our this we and I usually say in our in our this we and I usually say in our in our membership class which we call activate membership class which we call activate membership class which we call activate one I so I know we live in a weird time one I so I know we live in a weird time one I so I know we live in a weird time in church history where you're engaging in church history where you're engaging in church history where you're engaging online you're meeting with an online online you're meeting with an online online you're meeting with an online Pastor you're like this is weird I go Pastor you're like this is weird I go Pastor you're like this is weird I go this is really cool but we also believe this is really cool but we also believe this is really cool but we also believe that you need other people and so what that you need other people and so what that you need other people and so what that looks like is our hope is in the

that looks like is our hope is in the that looks like is our hope is in the next 6 to 12 months is that maybe you next 6 to 12 months is that maybe you next 6 to 12 months is that maybe you start in an online group and then you start in an online group and then you start in an online group and then you you connect and then eventually go hey I you connect and then eventually go hey I you connect and then eventually go hey I could do this group in my city with could do this group in my city with could do this group in my city with other people great now you do that and other people great now you do that and other people great now you do that and then maybe this this group in my city then maybe this this group in my city then maybe this this group in my city can actually watch church together in can actually watch church together in can actually watch church together in person which we call extensions which person which we call extensions which person which we call extensions which are micro sites and our goal online is are micro sites and our goal online is are micro sites and our goal online is that if you're far away that will always that if you're far away that will always that if you're far away that will always plug you into another church but if you plug you into another church but if you plug you into another church but if you don't have something we actually want don't have something we actually want don't have something we actually want you to start a micro site in your city you to start a micro site in your city you to start a micro site in your city and if you're near will'll help you uh and if you're near will'll help you uh and if you're near will'll help you uh get connected to a campus and so a lot get connected to a campus and so a lot get connected to a campus and so a lot of what we do online is we replicate a of what we do online is we replicate a of what we do online is we replicate a lot of our campus stuff just what's lot of our campus stuff just what's lot of our campus stuff just what's different is we might connect you to a different is we might connect you to a different is we might connect you to a nearby Church a nearby campus or just nearby Church a nearby campus or just nearby Church a nearby campus or just kind of nudge you towards starting a kind of nudge you towards starting a kind of nudge you towards starting a micro site and so that's kind of the micro site and so that's kind of the micro site and so that's kind of the that that's how we think about it at a that that's how we think about it at a that that's how we think about it at a high level that's so awesome like you've high level that's so awesome like you've high level that's so awesome like you've done such a good job of articulating the done such a good job of articulating the done such a good job of articulating the whole journey and in doing so like the whole journey and in doing so like the whole journey and in doing so like the motivation behind it Jay you use this motivation behind it Jay you use this motivation behind it Jay you use this phrase I've heard you use it this phrase phrase I've heard you use it this phrase phrase I've heard you use it this phrase um decentralizing Ministry which I think um decentralizing Ministry which I think um decentralizing Ministry which I think is kind of the picture you just painted is kind of the picture you just painted is kind of the picture you just painted but will you briefly just Define uh that but will you briefly just Define uh that but will you briefly just Define uh that phrase for us and talk about how that phrase for us and talk about how that phrase for us and talk about how that applies to an online strategy for applies to an online strategy for applies to an online strategy for churches of all sizes yeah so like I I churches of all sizes yeah so like I I churches of all sizes yeah so like I I think a lot of pastors and church think a lot of pastors and church think a lot of pastors and church leaders because as somebody who went to leaders because as somebody who went to leaders because as somebody who went to Seminary 2 and and thinks this way you Seminary 2 and and thinks this way you Seminary 2 and and thinks this way you know we are trained by getting people know we are trained by getting people know we are trained by getting people into a room and a lot of times what into a room and a lot of times what into a room and a lot of times what happens is a lot of this conversation on happens is a lot of this conversation on happens is a lot of this conversation on online Ministry or digital Church online Ministry or digital Church online Ministry or digital Church whatever you want to call it or you know whatever you want to call it or you know whatever you want to call it or you know put quotes around it uh we we think of put quotes around it uh we we think of put quotes around it uh we we think of it like oh I I got to Pastor people

it like oh I I got to Pastor people it like oh I I got to Pastor people therefore I got to be in the room and be therefore I got to be in the room and be therefore I got to be in the room and be face to face over coffee and one of the face to face over coffee and one of the face to face over coffee and one of the things that I really encourage is I things that I really encourage is I things that I really encourage is I believe believe believe that Ministry in person is is the best that Ministry in person is is the best that Ministry in person is is the best expression of community but I also don't expression of community but I also don't expression of community but I also don't necessarily believe everything needs to necessarily believe everything needs to necessarily believe everything needs to be in person and so when I say be in person and so when I say be in person and so when I say decentralizing with Ministry whatever decentralizing with Ministry whatever decentralizing with Ministry whatever you're trying to do what I'm trying to you're trying to do what I'm trying to you're trying to do what I'm trying to encourage is there might be things you encourage is there might be things you encourage is there might be things you can can can decentralize um in a digital or decentralize um in a digital or decentralize um in a digital or Technology Way and so like for example I Technology Way and so like for example I Technology Way and so like for example I went to a actual Seminary I drove there went to a actual Seminary I drove there went to a actual Seminary I drove there I went in the room but I also can't deny I went in the room but I also can't deny I went in the room but I also can't deny the fact that when I read a like n WR the fact that when I read a like n WR the fact that when I read a like n WR book He's not also teaching me in that book He's not also teaching me in that book He's not also teaching me in that medium and so we I think churches are so medium and so we I think churches are so medium and so we I think churches are so like it's all or nothing you know like like it's all or nothing you know like like it's all or nothing you know like you know I kind of jokingly say one of you know I kind of jokingly say one of you know I kind of jokingly say one of the best things about the church is we the best things about the church is we the best things about the church is we we believe what we believe and we we we believe what we believe and we we we believe what we believe and we we have preserved that truth and so change have preserved that truth and so change have preserved that truth and so change like change agents in church history like change agents in church history like change agents in church history tend to be burnt at the stake initially tend to be burnt at the stake initially tend to be burnt at the stake initially you know what I mean and so like we're you know what I mean and so like we're you know what I mean and so like we're great at that the reverse side of that great at that the reverse side of that great at that the reverse side of that it's really hard for us to change and so it's really hard for us to change and so it's really hard for us to change and so with this case I go I'm just trying to with this case I go I'm just trying to with this case I go I'm just trying to say like there are things that should be say like there are things that should be say like there are things that should be in the room and there's things that can in the room and there's things that can in the room and there's things that can be decentralized and so I use the be decentralized and so I use the be decentralized and so I use the example um that in my relationship with example um that in my relationship with example um that in my relationship with my wife me and her text and interact all my wife me and her text and interact all my wife me and her text and interact all day we're sending random Jay can I just day we're sending random Jay can I just day we're sending random Jay can I just stop you right there this is so funny stop you right there this is so funny stop you right there this is so funny because I was waiting for you to stop because I was waiting for you to stop because I was waiting for you to stop talking so I could say it's just like me

talking so I could say it's just like me talking so I could say it's just like me and my wife T really 100% it was the and my wife T really 100% it was the and my wife T really 100% it was the first thing that I thought of so clearly first thing that I thought of so clearly first thing that I thought of so clearly that's a really good I think both of us that's a really good I think both of us that's a really good I think both of us are landing on it as an illustration to are landing on it as an illustration to are landing on it as an illustration to drive this home so please I'll let you I drive this home so please I'll let you I drive this home so please I'll let you I was to do it but please well now you I was to do it but please well now you I was to do it but please well now you I know I talk wait I see this is the know I talk wait I see this is the know I talk wait I see this is the problem I start talking and I just keep problem I start talking and I just keep problem I start talking and I just keep going but I love that you're the guest going but I love that you're the guest going but I love that you're the guest we talk every week so no I mean it's we talk every week so no I mean it's we talk every week so no I mean it's yeah I mean it's this idea that you know yeah I mean it's this idea that you know yeah I mean it's this idea that you know my wife and I text and interact all day my wife and I text and interact all day my wife and I text and interact all day together but I still come home to her together but I still come home to her together but I still come home to her and to think that the texting and any and to think that the texting and any and to think that the texting and any digital thing that I'm using is somehow digital thing that I'm using is somehow digital thing that I'm using is somehow getting in the way like it's it's going getting in the way like it's it's going getting in the way like it's it's going to make me not come home to her is to make me not come home to her is to make me not come home to her is ridiculous I texting and this type of ridiculous I texting and this type of ridiculous I texting and this type of you know we're con I was joking like you know we're con I was joking like you know we're con I was joking like we'll send random reals that are funny we'll send random reals that are funny we'll send random reals that are funny about something in a relationship or about something in a relationship or about something in a relationship or about our kids and it strengthens our about our kids and it strengthens our about our kids and it strengthens our relationship now it's true I got to be relationship now it's true I got to be relationship now it's true I got to be super aware that digital or technology super aware that digital or technology super aware that digital or technology could impact my relationship I can say could impact my relationship I can say could impact my relationship I can say the wrong you know for me I can say the the wrong you know for me I can say the the wrong you know for me I can say the wrong thing at the wrong time and she wrong thing at the wrong time and she wrong thing at the wrong time and she doesn't get the joke or something or I doesn't get the joke or something or I doesn't get the joke or something or I can look at the wrong thing on the can look at the wrong thing on the can look at the wrong thing on the internet that can get in the way of our internet that can get in the way of our internet that can get in the way of our I mean there's a lot of variables so I I I mean there's a lot of variables so I I I mean there's a lot of variables so I I understand that technology and digital understand that technology and digital understand that technology and digital is is something we got to manage but I is is something we got to manage but I is is something we got to manage but I don't I think it's obvious that I'm don't I think it's obvious that I'm don't I think it's obvious that I'm always like I say this phrase it's more always like I say this phrase it's more always like I say this phrase it's more of a Sci-Fi phrase that most church of a Sci-Fi phrase that most church of a Sci-Fi phrase that most church leaders probably like what does that leaders probably like what does that leaders probably like what does that mean but we have a spatial physical mean but we have a spatial physical mean but we have a spatial physical relationship like I'm going to come home relationship like I'm going to come home relationship like I'm going to come home we're going to live under the same roof we're going to live under the same roof we're going to live under the same roof and that's never going to be better than and that's never going to be better than and that's never going to be better than some digital like only thing but we it's some digital like only thing but we it's some digital like only thing but we it's a hybrid and I think churches should a hybrid and I think churches should a hybrid and I think churches should think this way like you can send an

think this way like you can send an think this way like you can send an email you can post on reals and Tik Tok email you can post on reals and Tik Tok email you can post on reals and Tik Tok all this stuff and I don't think it's all this stuff and I don't think it's all this stuff and I don't think it's going to prevent people from coming going to prevent people from coming going to prevent people from coming physically I I think it actually just physically I I think it actually just physically I I think it actually just more is a shadow but I also think more is a shadow but I also think more is a shadow but I also think there's tremendous opportunity in those there's tremendous opportunity in those there's tremendous opportunity in those things like I I my wife and I we have things like I I my wife and I we have things like I I my wife and I we have our relationship is better because of our relationship is better because of our relationship is better because of Technology yeah and we want to affirm Technology yeah and we want to affirm Technology yeah and we want to affirm what you just said we also believe that what you just said we also believe that what you just said we also believe that Ministry at its best the best expression Ministry at its best the best expression Ministry at its best the best expression of it is in person um Alex and I aren't of it is in person um Alex and I aren't of it is in person um Alex and I aren't married so this is a different analogy married so this is a different analogy married so this is a different analogy but like so Alex and I see each other uh but like so Alex and I see each other uh but like so Alex and I see each other uh at least once per week in person and at least once per week in person and at least once per week in person and then guess what we'll text so this then guess what we'll text so this then guess what we'll text so this morning we were texting about work and morning we were texting about work and morning we were texting about work and we got some work things done before we we got some work things done before we we got some work things done before we saw each other in person sometimes I saw each other in person sometimes I saw each other in person sometimes I will send him something funny or we'll will send him something funny or we'll will send him something funny or we'll just like Riff on something that we both just like Riff on something that we both just like Riff on something that we both care about as shared interests and those care about as shared interests and those care about as shared interests and those are supplemental things that allow us to are supplemental things that allow us to are supplemental things that allow us to stay connected outside of the hours stay connected outside of the hours stay connected outside of the hours where we see each other exact in person where we see each other exact in person where we see each other exact in person and the it's it's ironic because the and the it's it's ironic because the and the it's it's ironic because the fear is that that digital connection fear is that that digital connection fear is that that digital connection will take the place of in person when in will take the place of in person when in will take the place of in person when in reality in a relationship like ours um reality in a relationship like ours um reality in a relationship like ours um it just makes us like more connected it just makes us like more connected it just makes us like more connected outside of of the time we see each other outside of of the time we see each other outside of of the time we see each other in person which is great um but we also in person which is great um but we also in person which is great um but we also know this is true about imperson know this is true about imperson know this is true about imperson Ministry because we have data from Pew Ministry because we have data from Pew Ministry because we have data from Pew on this that debunks the myth that you on this that debunks the myth that you on this that debunks the myth that you know folks prefer online church but also know folks prefer online church but also know folks prefer online church but also debunking the myth that online Church debunking the myth that online Church debunking the myth that online Church hurts your in-person attendance from the hurts your in-person attendance from the hurts your in-person attendance from the work that they did and the research they work that they did and the research they work that they did and the research they published what it showed was the more

published what it showed was the more published what it showed was the more engaged you were online the more engaged engaged you were online the more engaged engaged you were online the more engaged you also were in person that's right in you also were in person that's right in you also were in person that's right in the same way where if I'm texting Alex the same way where if I'm texting Alex the same way where if I'm texting Alex or you with your wife wife because or you with your wife wife because or you with your wife wife because apparently in this analogy I do not text apparently in this analogy I do not text apparently in this analogy I do not text my wife um well you're with her all the my wife um well you're with her all the my wife um well you're with her all the time that's right I am also with her all time that's right I am also with her all time that's right I am also with her all the time uh that is actually overall the time uh that is actually overall the time uh that is actually overall better because you have the core thing better because you have the core thing better because you have the core thing and then you have this supplemental and then you have this supplemental and then you have this supplemental thing in the meantime and it's so much thing in the meantime and it's so much thing in the meantime and it's so much like online church I was in Australia like online church I was in Australia like online church I was in Australia the last couple of weeks I was not with the last couple of weeks I was not with the last couple of weeks I was not with my wife in person so we had to exist my wife in person so we had to exist my wife in person so we had to exist entirely on text was that ideal no it's entirely on text was that ideal no it's entirely on text was that ideal no it's not ideal and we wouldn't want to do not ideal and we wouldn't want to do not ideal and we wouldn't want to do that for extended periods of time but that for extended periods of time but that for extended periods of time but you're in church and you're traveling you're in church and you're traveling you're in church and you're traveling hey having something like that is better hey having something like that is better hey having something like that is better than nothing in the meantime than nothing in the meantime than nothing in the meantime and I want to just like push just a and I want to just like push just a and I want to just like push just a little further because I think this is little further because I think this is little further because I think this is true not just for like for example in true not just for like for example in true not just for like for example in your example talking about when you're your example talking about when you're your example talking about when you're in Australia you're able to engage in Australia you're able to engage in Australia you're able to engage online in various ways I would online in various ways I would online in various ways I would encourage really there are multiple encourage really there are multiple encourage really there are multiple teams and and and departments in areas teams and and and departments in areas teams and and and departments in areas of a church that can do the same of a church that can do the same of a church that can do the same principle like for example thinking principle like for example thinking principle like for example thinking about Ministry if you're trying to get about Ministry if you're trying to get about Ministry if you're trying to get people into Ministry there are still people into Ministry there are still people into Ministry there are still churches and and and volunteers that churches and and and volunteers that churches and and and volunteers that think like the only way for me to train think like the only way for me to train think like the only way for me to train this person is I got to get coffee with this person is I got to get coffee with this person is I got to get coffee with them and sit across the room and I got them and sit across the room and I got them and sit across the room and I got to I got to do it this way and I would to I got to do it this way and I would to I got to do it this way and I would just say hey yeah ultimately that is a just say hey yeah ultimately that is a just say hey yeah ultimately that is a great expression and maybe even the best great expression and maybe even the best great expression and maybe even the best expression depending what you're trying expression depending what you're trying expression depending what you're trying to train them on but maybe you could for to train them on but maybe you could for to train them on but maybe you could for example do some kind of hybrid strategy example do some kind of hybrid strategy example do some kind of hybrid strategy where you send them a YouTube video where you send them a YouTube video where you send them a YouTube video where they can watch maybe the core where they can watch maybe the core where they can watch maybe the core elements and then you still get coffee

elements and then you still get coffee elements and then you still get coffee but when you get coffee you focus more but when you get coffee you focus more but when you get coffee you focus more personal and really what I'm trying to personal and really what I'm trying to personal and really what I'm trying to push on in some of this decentralizing push on in some of this decentralizing push on in some of this decentralizing type of thinking is hold on to core type of thinking is hold on to core type of thinking is hold on to core being the best but see the strengths of being the best but see the strengths of being the best but see the strengths of using digital and Technology to kind of using digital and Technology to kind of using digital and Technology to kind of amplify whatever you're trying to do in amplify whatever you're trying to do in amplify whatever you're trying to do in your area of your church so Jay you know your area of your church so Jay you know your area of your church so Jay you know we talk bra mentioned it and you you you we talk bra mentioned it and you you you we talk bra mentioned it and you you you affirmed it as well like we're in this affirmed it as well like we're in this affirmed it as well like we're in this post covid era of digital where a lot of post covid era of digital where a lot of post covid era of digital where a lot of churches certainly more than pre-co era churches certainly more than pre-co era churches certainly more than pre-co era a lot of churches are trying some a lot of churches are trying some a lot of churches are trying some version of digital Ministry whether version of digital Ministry whether version of digital Ministry whether they're you know just at the base level they're you know just at the base level they're you know just at the base level maybe they're live streaming their maybe they're live streaming their maybe they're live streaming their service for the first time or even even service for the first time or even even service for the first time or even even Bas or more base level they're posting Bas or more base level they're posting Bas or more base level they're posting their services to YouTube for the first their services to YouTube for the first their services to YouTube for the first time not even live maybe they're live time not even live maybe they're live time not even live maybe they're live streaming maybe they're trying online streaming maybe they're trying online streaming maybe they're trying online groups they're trying these things and groups they're trying these things and groups they're trying these things and we're getting to a point a few years we're getting to a point a few years we're getting to a point a few years later where we've invested maybe time later where we've invested maybe time later where we've invested maybe time energy resources senior leaders are energy resources senior leaders are energy resources senior leaders are asking like okay is this working and so asking like okay is this working and so asking like okay is this working and so I guess my question to you is how do we I guess my question to you is how do we I guess my question to you is how do we measure success in digital or online measure success in digital or online measure success in digital or online Ministry well I I will say just Ministry well I I will say just Ministry well I I will say just generally one of my kind of pet peeves generally one of my kind of pet peeves generally one of my kind of pet peeves that I kind of really lean in on and that I kind of really lean in on and that I kind of really lean in on and this is where I kind of get I would say this is where I kind of get I would say this is where I kind of get I would say push back from my own whatever you my push back from my own whatever you my push back from my own whatever you my own tribe is I believe in digital own tribe is I believe in digital own tribe is I believe in digital technology I'm a I'm a native of it I technology I'm a I'm a native of it I technology I'm a I'm a native of it I kind of was in the world pre- internet kind of was in the world pre- internet kind of was in the world pre- internet post internet and now now I have a post internet and now now I have a post internet and now now I have a almost almost almost 14-year-old and I have a 14-year-old 14-year-old and I have a 14-year-old 14-year-old and I have a 14-year-old 11year old and a eight-year-old and I'm

11year old and a eight-year-old and I'm 11year old and a eight-year-old and I'm watching them grow up in it and saturate watching them grow up in it and saturate watching them grow up in it and saturate in a different way I just don't think in a different way I just don't think in a different way I just don't think the average church if you have a limited the average church if you have a limited the average church if you have a limited amount of time and resource is for amount of time and resource is for amount of time and resource is for example like investing in streaming example like investing in streaming example like investing in streaming church is probably number eight on the church is probably number eight on the church is probably number eight on the list of things I want you to be thinking list of things I want you to be thinking list of things I want you to be thinking about with your limited resources and about with your limited resources and about with your limited resources and time with digital and Technology I think time with digital and Technology I think time with digital and Technology I think it for example like I think there's way it for example like I think there's way it for example like I think there's way more reasons why you should be thinking more reasons why you should be thinking more reasons why you should be thinking about an email strategy or an Instagram about an email strategy or an Instagram about an email strategy or an Instagram strategy or uh a training strategy strategy or uh a training strategy strategy or uh a training strategy versus just streaming church so I just versus just streaming church so I just versus just streaming church so I just want to say that first that's one of my want to say that first that's one of my want to say that first that's one of my things is that this is why even with the things is that this is why even with the things is that this is why even with the title of my book I'm trying to like PE title of my book I'm trying to like PE title of my book I'm trying to like PE and again there are amazing tools that and again there are amazing tools that and again there are amazing tools that have made this easy you know the church have made this easy you know the church have made this easy you know the church online platform a lot of churches just online platform a lot of churches just online platform a lot of churches just got on that CU it was free which is got on that CU it was free which is got on that CU it was free which is awesome when Mark Zuckerberg made awesome when Mark Zuckerberg made awesome when Mark Zuckerberg made streaming free so many churches just streaming free so many churches just streaming free so many churches just turned it on because no longer you had turned it on because no longer you had turned it on because no longer you had to pay bandwidth cost and so I usually to pay bandwidth cost and so I usually to pay bandwidth cost and so I usually try to encourage churches like hey if try to encourage churches like hey if try to encourage churches like hey if you're thinking about your worship you're thinking about your worship you're thinking about your worship experience on the on the weekend like a experience on the on the weekend like a experience on the on the weekend like a podcast probably will do it from 80% of podcast probably will do it from 80% of podcast probably will do it from 80% of the churches in the US just think about the churches in the US just think about the churches in the US just think about a podcast strategy and use that other a podcast strategy and use that other a podcast strategy and use that other energy to do other things I would rather energy to do other things I would rather energy to do other things I would rather you take any time there to run a local you take any time there to run a local you take any time there to run a local ad on Instagram even like and so I would ad on Instagram even like and so I would ad on Instagram even like and so I would just say that first just as measuring just say that first just as measuring just say that first just as measuring things that's one of my things that I'm things that's one of my things that I'm things that's one of my things that I'm really a champion I believe in streaming really a champion I believe in streaming really a champion I believe in streaming or uploading there's a lot of those or uploading there's a lot of those or uploading there's a lot of those things but again it's not I think in the things but again it's not I think in the things but again it's not I think in the top you know five list of things to be top you know five list of things to be top you know five list of things to be thinking about um on the measuring one thinking about um on the measuring one thinking about um on the measuring one of the things that I just generally have of the things that I just generally have of the things that I just generally have found is with measuring what's working I

found is with measuring what's working I found is with measuring what's working I like to see movement and so like for like to see movement and so like for like to see movement and so like for example you had these things during Co example you had these things during Co example you had these things during Co where people were measuring all a sudden where people were measuring all a sudden where people were measuring all a sudden churches were streaming and they're like churches were streaming and they're like churches were streaming and they're like oh wow we had 10,000 people you know and oh wow we had 10,000 people you know and oh wow we had 10,000 people you know and they're measuring sessions or views and they're measuring sessions or views and they're measuring sessions or views and and those numbers really you don't know and those numbers really you don't know and those numbers really you don't know what what that means but if you can what what that means but if you can what what that means but if you can track movement now you actually know and track movement now you actually know and track movement now you actually know and and so an example or kind of a method and so an example or kind of a method and so an example or kind of a method that I kind of encourage is track a high that I kind of encourage is track a high that I kind of encourage is track a high number and a low number so for example number and a low number so for example number and a low number so for example you would go how if you want to track you would go how if you want to track you would go how if you want to track views on YouTube for example in a given views on YouTube for example in a given views on YouTube for example in a given time range you would say great we had a time range you would say great we had a time range you would say great we had a th000 views on YouTube how many watched th000 views on YouTube how many watched th000 views on YouTube how many watched in that same time frame a low number in that same time frame a low number in that same time frame a low number watched 15 minutes and so great we had watched 15 minutes and so great we had watched 15 minutes and so great we had 1,000 views but we only had a 100 people 1,000 views but we only had a 100 people 1,000 views but we only had a 100 people watch 15 minutes and if you track high watch 15 minutes and if you track high watch 15 minutes and if you track high and and and low over a period of time you can low over a period of time you can low over a period of time you can actually have a pulse of what's actually have a pulse of what's actually have a pulse of what's happening in that domain of digital happening in that domain of digital happening in that domain of digital technology so great you had like a great technology so great you had like a great technology so great you had like a great example of this in the um the podcast example of this in the um the podcast example of this in the um the podcast industry is you people a lot of people industry is you people a lot of people industry is you people a lot of people don't realize you know you guys know don't realize you know you guys know don't realize you know you guys know this cuz you're in this world but I this cuz you're in this world but I this cuz you're in this world but I could have tens of thousands of people could have tens of thousands of people could have tens of thousands of people listen to my podcast but that doesn't listen to my podcast but that doesn't listen to my podcast but that doesn't actually mean they're listening because actually mean they're listening because actually mean they're listening because a lot of times on Apple it would a lot of times on Apple it would a lot of times on Apple it would automatically download it and so again automatically download it and so again automatically download it and so again it doesn't mean that number is not true it doesn't mean that number is not true it doesn't mean that number is not true but you need to correlate it and and but you need to correlate it and and but you need to correlate it and and again in podcast for example this is again in podcast for example this is again in podcast for example this is hard so this is why a lot of podcasts do hard so this is why a lot of podcasts do hard so this is why a lot of podcasts do surveys and they do a lot of things and surveys and they do a lot of things and surveys and they do a lot of things and so but if I can go okay how many so but if I can go okay how many so but if I can go okay how many downloads do I have in a given time

downloads do I have in a given time downloads do I have in a given time frame and maybe how many people actually frame and maybe how many people actually frame and maybe how many people actually watch to this point if you're listening watch to this point if you're listening watch to this point if you're listening if you're using a certain software but if you're using a certain software but if you're using a certain software but high and deep are kind of the the way high and deep are kind of the the way high and deep are kind of the the way that I think about it last example would that I think about it last example would that I think about it last example would be like how many people registered for a be like how many people registered for a be like how many people registered for a zoom event and how many people showed up zoom event and how many people showed up zoom event and how many people showed up how many people you sent your email to how many people you sent your email to how many people you sent your email to and how many people opened the email and how many people opened the email and how many people opened the email again high and low and I think if you again high and low and I think if you again high and low and I think if you track that over a period of time you track that over a period of time you track that over a period of time you actually know if it's actually working I actually know if it's actually working I actually know if it's actually working I like that a lot High number and low like that a lot High number and low like that a lot High number and low number gives you more holistic and number gives you more holistic and number gives you more holistic and robust view into the actual analytics robust view into the actual analytics robust view into the actual analytics should help you understand the should help you understand the should help you understand the trajectory and forecast better for trajectory and forecast better for trajectory and forecast better for what's ahead I want to ask you Jay about what's ahead I want to ask you Jay about what's ahead I want to ask you Jay about translating some of the ideas you've translating some of the ideas you've translating some of the ideas you've discussed to smaller churches the discussed to smaller churches the discussed to smaller churches the reality is we know so many churches are reality is we know so many churches are reality is we know so many churches are live streaming because of covid the live streaming because of covid the live streaming because of covid the investment was made the capital was investment was made the capital was investment was made the capital was spent the infrastructure was created in spent the infrastructure was created in spent the infrastructure was created in terms of you know setting up and terms of you know setting up and terms of you know setting up and configuring executing the live stream configuring executing the live stream configuring executing the live stream each week maybe people are hearing you each week maybe people are hearing you each week maybe people are hearing you talk about online groups and active talk about online groups and active talk about online groups and active participation beyond that oh micro sites participation beyond that oh micro sites participation beyond that oh micro sites and then I think what immediately comes and then I think what immediately comes and then I think what immediately comes to mind is okay I'm a small Church like to mind is okay I'm a small Church like to mind is okay I'm a small Church like what's it's it's it's a bit ironic what's it's it's it's a bit ironic what's it's it's it's a bit ironic because I think the harder part is because I think the harder part is because I think the harder part is actually like setting up the live stream actually like setting up the live stream actually like setting up the live stream and investing all the capital in that and investing all the capital in that and investing all the capital in that and then running it each week and I and then running it each week and I and then running it each week and I think what's regrettable is the thought think what's regrettable is the thought think what's regrettable is the thought of going through all of that and then of going through all of that and then of going through all of that and then not seeing it through to the final step not seeing it through to the final step not seeing it through to the final step cuz it's like 90% of the work is done cuz it's like 90% of the work is done cuz it's like 90% of the work is done you've got the audience and then let's you've got the audience and then let's you've got the audience and then let's bring them now to spiritual formation

bring them now to spiritual formation bring them now to spiritual formation and active participation in church if and active participation in church if and active participation in church if you're a smaller church and when we say you're a smaller church and when we say you're a smaller church and when we say smaller let's emphasize we mean the smaller let's emphasize we mean the smaller let's emphasize we mean the average church because that is the average church because that is the average church because that is the average size 100 people roughly in the average size 100 people roughly in the average size 100 people roughly in the states in Canada Australia the UK Beyond states in Canada Australia the UK Beyond states in Canada Australia the UK Beyond how can we use some of these strategies how can we use some of these strategies how can we use some of these strategies we got all these people online and move we got all these people online and move we got all these people online and move them to that that that place recognizing them to that that that place recognizing them to that that that place recognizing that smaller churches don't have the that smaller churches don't have the that smaller churches don't have the same resources as as as a church like same resources as as as a church like same resources as as as a church like yours yeah great question big question yours yeah great question big question yours yeah great question big question um and you know part of the reason why I um and you know part of the reason why I um and you know part of the reason why I I wrote my book was to I wrote to that I wrote my book was to I wrote to that I wrote my book was to I wrote to that person because I definitely feel like person because I definitely feel like person because I definitely feel like I'm in this privileged luxury type of I'm in this privileged luxury type of I'm in this privileged luxury type of role which I am and the things that I role which I am and the things that I role which I am and the things that I get to think about like the irony that get to think about like the irony that get to think about like the irony that I've been able to think about this full I've been able to think about this full I've been able to think about this full time for over a decade is just time for over a decade is just time for over a decade is just ridiculous you know what I mean like ridiculous you know what I mean like ridiculous you know what I mean like it's not I'm I'm an anomaly you know and it's not I'm I'm an anomaly you know and it's not I'm I'm an anomaly you know and it's and and I know the average Church it's and and I know the average Church it's and and I know the average Church doesn't the average Church leader doesn't the average Church leader doesn't the average Church leader doesn't get to think that they're paying doesn't get to think that they're paying doesn't get to think that they're paying they're trying they're working a primary they're trying they're working a primary they're trying they're working a primary job on top of trying to do this on the job on top of trying to do this on the job on top of trying to do this on the week you know and so one one of the of week you know and so one one of the of week you know and so one one of the of the things that I first I I like to the things that I first I I like to the things that I first I I like to really encourage and I have a tool that really encourage and I have a tool that really encourage and I have a tool that I kind of unpack is the alpha omega tool I kind of unpack is the alpha omega tool I kind of unpack is the alpha omega tool and this idea is that it's first framing and this idea is that it's first framing and this idea is that it's first framing it is your goal to fill a room or make it is your goal to fill a room or make it is your goal to fill a room or make disciples and so a lot of churches you disciples and so a lot of churches you disciples and so a lot of churches you know one of the the counter end here the know one of the the counter end here the know one of the the counter end here the counter end of a blessing here in the counter end of a blessing here in the counter end of a blessing here in the United States is that we've had a lot of United States is that we've had a lot of United States is that we've had a lot of freedom of worship and we've had the freedom of worship and we've had the freedom of worship and we've had the luxury to have buildings and luxury to have buildings and luxury to have buildings and unfortunately unintended consequence of

unfortunately unintended consequence of unfortunately unintended consequence of that blessing is people think church is that blessing is people think church is that blessing is people think church is just getting people into a room and just getting people into a room and just getting people into a room and worshiping and we all know that you know worshiping and we all know that you know worshiping and we all know that you know anybody who reads the Bible knows that's anybody who reads the Bible knows that's anybody who reads the Bible knows that's not the point but I think a lot of times not the point but I think a lot of times not the point but I think a lot of times people think this is why the the idea of people think this is why the the idea of people think this is why the the idea of Church online is not church is like that Church online is not church is like that Church online is not church is like that doesn't make any sense you know and it's doesn't make any sense you know and it's doesn't make any sense you know and it's like no our our our job isn't to I think like no our our our job isn't to I think like no our our our job isn't to I think fill a room our job is to make disciples fill a room our job is to make disciples fill a room our job is to make disciples and this is where you can decentralize and this is where you can decentralize and this is where you can decentralize this and so the irony is that that this and so the irony is that that this and so the irony is that that building is just a resource to make building is just a resource to make building is just a resource to make disciples and and so I like to start it disciples and and so I like to start it disciples and and so I like to start it off with a lot of even a church of a off with a lot of even a church of a off with a lot of even a church of a hundred to go hey like for example there hundred to go hey like for example there hundred to go hey like for example there are so many Church plants in the US I are so many Church plants in the US I are so many Church plants in the US I know that spend so much resources and know that spend so much resources and know that spend so much resources and capital and time just trying to get a capital and time just trying to get a capital and time just trying to get a building and so and again that's not building and so and again that's not building and so and again that's not necessarily a negative part of the necessarily a negative part of the necessarily a negative part of the strategy but what if you could start a strategy but what if you could start a strategy but what if you could start a Ministry uh or start a church you know Ministry uh or start a church you know Ministry uh or start a church you know starting with digital tools and not starting with digital tools and not starting with digital tools and not having to pay a $5,000 lease $10,000 a having to pay a $5,000 lease $10,000 a having to pay a $5,000 lease $10,000 a month lease you know and and and what if month lease you know and and and what if month lease you know and and and what if you start more in that way now I'm going you start more in that way now I'm going you start more in that way now I'm going to fast forward one of the things that I to fast forward one of the things that I to fast forward one of the things that I would encourage a lot of churches is would encourage a lot of churches is would encourage a lot of churches is just going hey you have this and this is just going hey you have this and this is just going hey you have this and this is where you guys do this so well every where you guys do this so well every where you guys do this so well every week is this you have this you know week is this you have this you know week is this you have this you know Monday through Friday opportunity to Monday through Friday opportunity to Monday through Friday opportunity to interject into people's world and use interject into people's world and use interject into people's world and use some of these tools and and some of some of these tools and and some of some of these tools and and some of these things to continue the these things to continue the these things to continue the conversation and so if it is with a conversation and so if it is with a conversation and so if it is with a posting strategy if it is with an email posting strategy if it is with an email posting strategy if it is with an email strategy if it is with a WhatsApp group strategy if it is with a WhatsApp group strategy if it is with a WhatsApp group where people can interact and be social

where people can interact and be social where people can interact and be social with each other I think those are more with each other I think those are more with each other I think those are more of the opportunities and so this is of the opportunities and so this is of the opportunities and so this is where it's just like and this is where I where it's just like and this is where I where it's just like and this is where I and this this is where I probably do and this this is where I probably do and this this is where I probably do myself a disservice but like I myself a disservice but like I myself a disservice but like I don't I I don't really believe there's don't I I don't really believe there's don't I I don't really believe there's this copy and paste strategy with this copy and paste strategy with this copy and paste strategy with digital and um technology because I've digital and um technology because I've digital and um technology because I've I've been fortunate to talk to churches I've been fortunate to talk to churches I've been fortunate to talk to churches uh and visit churches all around the uh and visit churches all around the uh and visit churches all around the world and I've I've been able to see a world and I've I've been able to see a world and I've I've been able to see a lot of amazing things I was just a lot of amazing things I was just a lot of amazing things I was just a couple nights ago talking to a church in couple nights ago talking to a church in couple nights ago talking to a church in uh Pakistan doing some digital stuff in uh Pakistan doing some digital stuff in uh Pakistan doing some digital stuff in country under some crazy things and I'm country under some crazy things and I'm country under some crazy things and I'm just reminded that some of the ways that just reminded that some of the ways that just reminded that some of the ways that churches execute are just Limitless and churches execute are just Limitless and churches execute are just Limitless and so one of my encouragements to go hey so one of my encouragements to go hey so one of my encouragements to go hey don't just think that Ministry is don't just think that Ministry is don't just think that Ministry is possible face to face lean in towards possible face to face lean in towards possible face to face lean in towards that do that but now start thinking how that do that but now start thinking how that do that but now start thinking how can I continue this conversation in more can I continue this conversation in more can I continue this conversation in more ways and so this is where like it's more ways and so this is where like it's more ways and so this is where like it's more broading like who are you trying to broading like who are you trying to broading like who are you trying to reach what are you trying to do and then reach what are you trying to do and then reach what are you trying to do and then this is where I I could talk about the this is where I I could talk about the this is where I I could talk about the things that are working for me like most things that are working for me like most things that are working for me like most of our success in the last 5 years has of our success in the last 5 years has of our success in the last 5 years has been around video type of been around video type of been around video type of groups and uh asynchronized type of groups and uh asynchronized type of groups and uh asynchronized type of groups like WhatsApp and signal and you groups like WhatsApp and signal and you groups like WhatsApp and signal and you know you can insert whatever platform know you can insert whatever platform know you can insert whatever platform because the irony is if you look at the because the irony is if you look at the because the irony is if you look at the booming if if you look at some of the booming if if you look at some of the booming if if you look at some of the things that are happening on platforms things that are happening on platforms things that are happening on platforms like kick and twitch or whatever you like kick and twitch or whatever you like kick and twitch or whatever you want to look at they have these want to look at they have these want to look at they have these streaming type of experiences and they streaming type of experiences and they streaming type of experiences and they have these private chat Discord type of have these private chat Discord type of have these private chat Discord type of experiences and I think churches should

experiences and I think churches should experiences and I think churches should look at that go people are lonely they look at that go people are lonely they look at that go people are lonely they want to connect with people and this is want to connect with people and this is want to connect with people and this is why like I would just start off like I why like I would just start off like I why like I would just start off like I think there's just a power in having think there's just a power in having think there's just a power in having some of these asynchronized type of some of these asynchronized type of some of these asynchronized type of places like WhatsApp and so forth where places like WhatsApp and so forth where places like WhatsApp and so forth where Ministry teams can talk during the week Ministry teams can talk during the week Ministry teams can talk during the week um and I think and again I think this is um and I think and again I think this is um and I think and again I think this is why this is why I don't love churches why this is why I don't love churches why this is why I don't love churches think oh I got to be streaming on think oh I got to be streaming on think oh I got to be streaming on YouTube and that's going to fix YouTube and that's going to fix YouTube and that's going to fix everything and I would go yeah I think everything and I would go yeah I think everything and I would go yeah I think that's a pretty like no like just that's a pretty like no like just that's a pretty like no like just actually I think probably if you just actually I think probably if you just actually I think probably if you just had a good social strategy you had a had a good social strategy you had a had a good social strategy you had a zoom thing and you had maybe a group zoom thing and you had maybe a group zoom thing and you had maybe a group thing thing thing like that's actually would be better cuz like that's actually would be better cuz like that's actually would be better cuz it just provides a you just need a space it just provides a you just need a space it just provides a you just need a space for people to connect with other people for people to connect with other people for people to connect with other people and not watch more content and and I and not watch more content and and I and not watch more content and and I know that's not the sexiest answer but know that's not the sexiest answer but know that's not the sexiest answer but that's how I would think about it the that's how I would think about it the that's how I would think about it the book is online church is not the answer book is online church is not the answer book is online church is not the answer by Jay CR Jay it was great to catch up by Jay CR Jay it was great to catch up by Jay CR Jay it was great to catch up with you any final thoughts you'd like with you any final thoughts you'd like with you any final thoughts you'd like to to to leave uh with us before we sign off for leave uh with us before we sign off for leave uh with us before we sign off for the day well I I just want to say um to the day well I I just want to say um to the day well I I just want to say um to anybody who's thinking about this anybody who's thinking about this anybody who's thinking about this obviously if they're listening and obviously if they're listening and obviously if they're listening and engaging in the show like they care engaging in the show like they care engaging in the show like they care about it and I would just say I would about it and I would just say I would about it and I would just say I would continue to think about your people and continue to think about your people and continue to think about your people and pick the things that make the most sense pick the things that make the most sense pick the things that make the most sense um for the people you're shepherding um for the people you're shepherding um for the people you're shepherding most likely you know you know those most likely you know you know those most likely you know you know those platforms and just you're on the right platforms and just you're on the right platforms and just you're on the right journey and I just say Kudos because I journey and I just say Kudos because I journey and I just say Kudos because I will say as somebody who's pretty will say as somebody who's pretty will say as somebody who's pretty digitally Savvy it's hard to navigate digitally Savvy it's hard to navigate digitally Savvy it's hard to navigate and I'm constantly I see something and and I'm constantly I see something and and I'm constantly I see something and I'm like oh my goodness like and and I I'm like oh my goodness like and and I I'm like oh my goodness like and and I feel for the average Church leader feel for the average Church leader feel for the average Church leader because because because it I think it's only going to get more

it I think it's only going to get more it I think it's only going to get more complicated uh and I would just say if complicated uh and I would just say if complicated uh and I would just say if you care about your people and if you you care about your people and if you you care about your people and if you have your Radar Radar up of New have your Radar Radar up of New have your Radar Radar up of New Opportunities just be be wise and you Opportunities just be be wise and you Opportunities just be be wise and you know God's put a vision into your into know God's put a vision into your into know God's put a vision into your into your mind and um trust that excellent your mind and um trust that excellent your mind and um trust that excellent thank you Jay for your time as always thank you Jay for your time as always thank you Jay for your time as always and thank you listener for your time and thank you listener for your time and thank you listener for your time attention and Trust we're going to be attention and Trust we're going to be attention and Trust we're going to be off for the next couple of weeks for the off for the next couple of weeks for the off for the next couple of weeks for the Christmas breaks we won't talk to you Christmas breaks we won't talk to you Christmas breaks we won't talk to you next week we'll talk to you next year next week we'll talk to you next year next week we'll talk to you next year sorry for the dad joke we'll chat then sorry for the dad joke we'll chat then sorry for the dad joke we'll chat then great all right I will [Music] [Music] say Okay that was not useful I'm going say Okay that was not useful I'm going say Okay that was not useful I'm going to do that again sorry my brain making to do that again sorry my brain making to do that again sorry my brain making people laugh going into the okay okay people laugh going into the okay okay people laugh going into the okay okay okay okay uh