Debating Hot Takes About The Future Of Church

recently I asked you all on Instagram to recently I asked you all on Instagram to share your hot takes about the future of share your hot takes about the future of share your hot takes about the future of church so today we're debating what you church so today we're debating what you church so today we're debating what you sent in we're going to debate each other sent in we're going to debate each other sent in we're going to debate each other we're going to debate you let's dive we're going to debate you let's dive we're going to debate you let's dive in well hey there and welcome to the pro in well hey there and welcome to the pro in well hey there and welcome to the pro Church tool show we're here to help you Church tool show we're here to help you Church tool show we're here to help you and your church navigate the biggest and your church navigate the biggest and your church navigate the biggest communication shift in 500 years I'm communication shift in 500 years I'm communication shift in 500 years I'm Brady sheer your host I'm joined as Brady sheer your host I'm joined as Brady sheer your host I'm joined as always by my co-host we call him Pastor always by my co-host we call him Pastor always by my co-host we call him Pastor preserves it's Alexander Mills that time preserves it's Alexander Mills that time preserves it's Alexander Mills that time of year living off of your presumed of year living off of your presumed of year living off of your presumed preservatives that made in the summer preservatives that made in the summer preservatives that made in the summer last night I had pickled ramps on top of last night I had pickled ramps on top of last night I had pickled ramps on top of our on top of our venison tacos so yeah our on top of our venison tacos so yeah our on top of our venison tacos so yeah venison yes you shot some and the ramps venison yes you shot some and the ramps venison yes you shot some and the ramps no from last year oh but the ramps from no from last year oh but the ramps from no from last year oh but the ramps from back in April we've thoroughly talked back in April we've thoroughly talked back in April we've thoroughly talked about ramps on this show we have still about ramps on this show we have still about ramps on this show we have still eating them we're not talking about eating them we're not talking about eating them we're not talking about ramps today I promise not anymore that's ramps today I promise not anymore that's ramps today I promise not anymore that's it I recorded a YouTube video on this it I recorded a YouTube video on this it I recorded a YouTube video on this same subject that's coming out in a same subject that's coming out in a same subject that's coming out in a couple of weeks uh but I got so many hot couple of weeks uh but I got so many hot couple of weeks uh but I got so many hot takes that were sent in via the question takes that were sent in via the question takes that were sent in via the question sticker on Instagram that I saved a sticker on Instagram that I saved a sticker on Instagram that I saved a bunch of them to debate here with Alex bunch of them to debate here with Alex bunch of them to debate here with Alex all right now as I was thinking through all right now as I was thinking through all right now as I was thinking through these hot takes it did bring to mind an these hot takes it did bring to mind an these hot takes it did bring to mind an of qued interaction that Jeff Bezos had of qued interaction that Jeff Bezos had of qued interaction that Jeff Bezos had with a a reporter I think it was Harvard with a a reporter I think it was Harvard with a a reporter I think it was Harvard Business review this was in 20 2007 and Business review this was in 20 2007 and Business review this was in 20 2007 and they asked him they said what do you they asked him they said what do you they asked him they said what do you think's going to change in the next 10 think's going to change in the next 10 think's going to change in the next 10 years and famously he responded he's years and famously he responded he's years and famously he responded he's like you know what paraphrasing here I'm like you know what paraphrasing here I'm like you know what paraphrasing here I'm really more focused on what's not going really more focused on what's not going really more focused on what's not going to change in the next 10 years and as we to change in the next 10 years and as we to change in the next 10 years and as we kind of go through these hot takes the kind of go through these hot takes the kind of go through these hot takes the predictions for what the future of predictions for what the future of predictions for what the future of church might look like just a helpful

church might look like just a helpful church might look like just a helpful reminder off the top that what isn't reminder off the top that what isn't reminder off the top that what isn't going to change over the next 10 years going to change over the next 10 years going to change over the next 10 years almost certainly deserves more of our almost certainly deserves more of our almost certainly deserves more of our time and focus and emphasis than what time and focus and emphasis than what time and focus and emphasis than what will change but let's be will change but let's be will change but let's be honest that's not as fun as making some honest that's not as fun as making some honest that's not as fun as making some predictions and talking through whether predictions and talking through whether predictions and talking through whether or not they might be true so number one or not they might be true so number one or not they might be true so number one hot take a downturn in big churches hot take a downturn in big churches hot take a downturn in big churches small churches increase so these are small churches increase so these are small churches increase so these are coming in from your followers you asked coming in from your followers you asked coming in from your followers you asked the question yeah and somebody wrote in the question yeah and somebody wrote in the question yeah and somebody wrote in and said downturn in big churches and said downturn in big churches and said downturn in big churches increase in small churches now let's lay increase in small churches now let's lay increase in small churches now let's lay some groundwork for where we are right some groundwork for where we are right some groundwork for where we are right now this comes from Faith communities now this comes from Faith communities now this comes from Faith communities today the largest uh survey of uh today the largest uh survey of uh today the largest uh survey of uh American congregations in history this American congregations in history this American congregations in history this was done in 2020 and it reported 70% of was done in 2020 and it reported 70% of was done in 2020 and it reported 70% of all congregations see 100 people or less all congregations see 100 people or less all congregations see 100 people or less in weekly attendance okay so already in weekly attendance okay so already in weekly attendance okay so already small churches outnumber large churches small churches outnumber large churches small churches outnumber large churches here's what's interesting 70% of church here's what's interesting 70% of church here's what's interesting 70% of church attendees go to churches of 250 right or attendees go to churches of 250 right or attendees go to churches of 250 right or more so what that means is most churches more so what that means is most churches more so what that means is most churches are small and most people that go to are small and most people that go to are small and most people that go to churches don't go to those said small churches don't go to those said small churches don't go to those said small churches which is a really fascinating churches which is a really fascinating churches which is a really fascinating uh Dynamic you have to sit and think uh Dynamic you have to sit and think uh Dynamic you have to sit and think about that for a couple minutes yeah about that for a couple minutes yeah about that for a couple minutes yeah every time I say it we get a comment be every time I say it we get a comment be every time I say it we get a comment be like wait wait wait wait yeah you can like wait wait wait wait yeah you can like wait wait wait wait yeah you can pause the YouTube video and just like pause the YouTube video and just like pause the YouTube video and just like soak in that for a moment if you need to soak in that for a moment if you need to soak in that for a moment if you need to so here's what's really interesting to so here's what's really interesting to so here's what's really interesting to me what we know about jenz is that they me what we know about jenz is that they me what we know about jenz is that they are the least religious generation are the least religious generation are the least religious generation in history and they're becoming less in history and they're becoming less in history and they're becoming less religious as time goes on we used to

religious as time goes on we used to religious as time goes on we used to hold the ground for this and we as hold the ground for this and we as hold the ground for this and we as Millennials are also becoming less Rel Millennials are also becoming less Rel Millennials are also becoming less Rel religious as time goes on so my big religious as time goes on so my big religious as time goes on so my big question to you question to you question to you is is this even realistic or possible if is is this even realistic or possible if is is this even realistic or possible if we know that fewer people are attending we know that fewer people are attending we know that fewer people are attending church because they are less religious church because they are less religious church because they are less religious is the small Church model even realistic is the small Church model even realistic is the small Church model even realistic and financially viable sure it might and financially viable sure it might and financially viable sure it might make sense ideologically make sense ideologically make sense ideologically theologically but theologically but theologically but practically yeah that is a question that practically yeah that is a question that practically yeah that is a question that you and I talk about a lot personally you and I talk about a lot personally you and I talk about a lot personally off air this is a question I wrestle off air this is a question I wrestle off air this is a question I wrestle with uh personally interpersonally a with uh personally interpersonally a with uh personally interpersonally a question that that we wrestle with at question that that we wrestle with at question that that we wrestle with at our church because we are one of these our church because we are one of these our church because we are one of these churches of less than 100 people and churches of less than 100 people and churches of less than 100 people and that's the question that we come up that's the question that we come up that's the question that we come up against a lot which is like okay as far against a lot which is like okay as far against a lot which is like okay as far as the the complexion of our community as the the complexion of our community as the the complexion of our community and how we are embodying a faith and how we are embodying a faith and how we are embodying a faith community we we feel great we love it community we we feel great we love it community we we feel great we love it but the viability question is always the but the viability question is always the but the viability question is always the thing we come up against which is like thing we come up against which is like thing we come up against which is like okay financially how long is this viable okay financially how long is this viable okay financially how long is this viable and I've been I've been working in and I've been I've been working in and I've been I've been working in church now for 10 years pastoring for church now for 10 years pastoring for church now for 10 years pastoring for for a lot of those and uh and then also for a lot of those and uh and then also for a lot of those and uh and then also you know with my work here at Pro Church you know with my work here at Pro Church you know with my work here at Pro Church schs talking to so many different schs talking to so many different schs talking to so many different pastors so many different people who pastors so many different people who pastors so many different people who work at churches all over not just this work at churches all over not just this work at churches all over not just this country but the country but the country but the continent and this is the question that continent and this is the question that continent and this is the question that I think about probably more than most um I think about probably more than most um I think about probably more than most um and not just in the context of the our and not just in the context of the our and not just in the context of the our own church the church that I pastor but own church the church that I pastor but own church the church that I pastor but just most churches in America because we just most churches in America because we just most churches in America because we know that they're they're this size and

know that they're they're this size and know that they're they're this size and where I find myself kind of resolved where I find myself kind of resolved where I find myself kind of resolved today is this idea of maybe they are not today is this idea of maybe they are not today is this idea of maybe they are not um viable in in a in a sense of like um viable in in a in a sense of like um viable in in a in a sense of like longevity uh is concerned um churches of longevity uh is concerned um churches of longevity uh is concerned um churches of 1 two 300 years like we've known but 1 two 300 years like we've known but 1 two 300 years like we've known but maybe just maybe that's okay maybe it's maybe just maybe that's okay maybe it's maybe just maybe that's okay maybe it's okay for a church to be seasonal if this okay for a church to be seasonal if this okay for a church to be seasonal if this small type of congregation this small small type of congregation this small small type of congregation this small type of community is what um Millennials type of community is what um Millennials type of community is what um Millennials desire what gen Z desires um and if if desire what gen Z desires um and if if desire what gen Z desires um and if if they are pushing back against the large they are pushing back against the large they are pushing back against the large Church model maybe it is okay that that Church model maybe it is okay that that Church model maybe it is okay that that type of community is seasonal and type of community is seasonal and type of community is seasonal and doesn't exist for centuries that's a doesn't exist for centuries that's a doesn't exist for centuries that's a hard thing to reckon with because I hard thing to reckon with because I hard thing to reckon with because I can't imagine closing the doors to our can't imagine closing the doors to our can't imagine closing the doors to our church but our church is uh is made up church but our church is uh is made up church but our church is uh is made up of a specific group of people who live of a specific group of people who live of a specific group of people who live in a in a specific place at a specific in a in a specific place at a specific in a in a specific place at a specific time and if we were to grow out of that time and if we were to grow out of that time and if we were to grow out of that like I think we would close the doors to like I think we would close the doors to like I think we would close the doors to our church and I think we would move on our church and I think we would move on our church and I think we would move on to wherever we we found our next to wherever we we found our next to wherever we we found our next community and we would find people of community and we would find people of community and we would find people of Faith there too um so it's like it's a Faith there too um so it's like it's a Faith there too um so it's like it's a hard thing for me to wrap my head around hard thing for me to wrap my head around hard thing for me to wrap my head around but I'm wondering if that is is what but I'm wondering if that is is what but I'm wondering if that is is what this looks like like not not temporary this looks like like not not temporary this looks like like not not temporary communities in the sense of like lasting communities in the sense of like lasting communities in the sense of like lasting four months or like single- digit years four months or like single- digit years four months or like single- digit years but maybe a church Community lasts for a but maybe a church Community lasts for a but maybe a church Community lasts for a couple decades because people grew up couple decades because people grew up couple decades because people grew up and Faith together in a place but then and Faith together in a place but then and Faith together in a place but then they move on because of whatever reason they move on because of whatever reason they move on because of whatever reason and maybe that Community dissolves and

and maybe that Community dissolves and and maybe that Community dissolves and they rebuild a new community wherever they rebuild a new community wherever they rebuild a new community wherever they go I think my practical approach is they go I think my practical approach is they go I think my practical approach is going to come up a number of times in going to come up a number of times in going to come up a number of times in these hot takes because I look at what these hot takes because I look at what these hot takes because I look at what people are saying and I think to myself people are saying and I think to myself people are saying and I think to myself sure like on paper I I understand where sure like on paper I I understand where sure like on paper I I understand where that's coming from but then my question that's coming from but then my question that's coming from but then my question is is this realistic and it's a really is is this realistic and it's a really is is this realistic and it's a really and this is why I wanted to debate you and this is why I wanted to debate you and this is why I wanted to debate you on these things because the way that I on these things because the way that I on these things because the way that I view you is that you come to things and view you is that you come to things and view you is that you come to things and you're like you know what the you're like you know what the you're like you know what the Lord and and and and you know what one Lord and and and and you know what one Lord and and and and you know what one thing I've heard more and more on thing I've heard more and more on thing I've heard more and more on podcast and from leaders that I admire podcast and from leaders that I admire podcast and from leaders that I admire is hey God's not calling you to be is hey God's not calling you to be is hey God's not calling you to be effective he's calling you to be effective he's calling you to be effective he's calling you to be faithful and I know my head and I go faithful and I know my head and I go faithful and I know my head and I go yeah yeah and I go yeah yeah and I go yeah yeah and I go but mostly in respect to just viability but mostly in respect to just viability but mostly in respect to just viability and and practicality and we often um and and practicality and we often um and and practicality and we often um push for Effectiveness on this show and push for Effectiveness on this show and push for Effectiveness on this show and in the content that we make my take on in the content that we make my take on in the content that we make my take on that would be it's always Effectiveness that would be it's always Effectiveness that would be it's always Effectiveness assuming faithfulness is being upheld if assuming faithfulness is being upheld if assuming faithfulness is being upheld if you're not being faithful to your own you're not being faithful to your own you're not being faithful to your own convictions to the word of God to your convictions to the word of God to your convictions to the word of God to your calling then then that would no longer calling then then that would no longer calling then then that would no longer be effective almost certainly um but be effective almost certainly um but be effective almost certainly um but it's just really challenging because I it's just really challenging because I it's just really challenging because I don't know how to reconcile these two don't know how to reconcile these two don't know how to reconcile these two things so let let's get to the next one things so let let's get to the next one things so let let's get to the next one because it kind of carries on and what I because it kind of carries on and what I because it kind of carries on and what I tried to when I was picking out the hot tried to when I was picking out the hot tried to when I was picking out the hot takes for this specific episode was I takes for this specific episode was I takes for this specific episode was I chose ones that came in more than once chose ones that came in more than once chose ones that came in more than once so what you're seeing here are like so what you're seeing here are like so what you're seeing here are like these were the big trends and and we got

these were the big trends and and we got these were the big trends and and we got a ton of responses so here's the next a ton of responses so here's the next a ton of responses so here's the next one next Jens will ditch LED walls and one next Jens will ditch LED walls and one next Jens will ditch LED walls and seek more simple Productions I think seek more simple Productions I think seek more simple Productions I think this one came in more than any other wow this one came in more than any other wow this one came in more than any other wow and I could not disagree and I could not disagree and I could not disagree more now I I think one one thing that more now I I think one one thing that more now I I think one one thing that I've come to appreciate now as someone I've come to appreciate now as someone I've come to appreciate now as someone in my 30s versus someone in my 20s is in my 30s versus someone in my 20s is in my 30s versus someone in my 20s is how much you change from one decade to how much you change from one decade to how much you change from one decade to the next and what's fascinating is when the next and what's fascinating is when the next and what's fascinating is when we as Millennials were being talked we as Millennials were being talked we as Millennials were being talked about in the way that jenz gets talked about in the way that jenz gets talked about in the way that jenz gets talked about now hey this is the next about now hey this is the next about now hey this is the next Generation in church this is what Generation in church this is what Generation in church this is what they're going to look like this is what they're going to look like this is what they're going to look like this is what we can expect it's fascinating to see we can expect it's fascinating to see we can expect it's fascinating to see the commentary and the narrative around the commentary and the narrative around the commentary and the narrative around us then and and who we are now and what us then and and who we are now and what us then and and who we are now and what we became and and how not necessarily we became and and how not necessarily we became and and how not necessarily exist act those things ended up being exist act those things ended up being exist act those things ended up being perhaps that's because of a global perhaps that's because of a global perhaps that's because of a global pandemic yeah I I think it's more to do pandemic yeah I I think it's more to do pandemic yeah I I think it's more to do with just like you age and your with just like you age and your with just like you age and your priorities change as you and and you priorities change as you and and you priorities change as you and and you have to make make choices a lot of have to make make choices a lot of have to make make choices a lot of people I've heard some pastors say hey people I've heard some pastors say hey people I've heard some pastors say hey is anyone noticing like Millennials are is anyone noticing like Millennials are is anyone noticing like Millennials are coming back to church more and and I was coming back to church more and and I was coming back to church more and and I was like yeah like we all had kids and like yeah like we all had kids and like yeah like we all had kids and realized oh my gosh the family needs the realized oh my gosh the family needs the realized oh my gosh the family needs the Lord and and and and yeah it wasn't Lord and and and and yeah it wasn't Lord and and and and yeah it wasn't perfect and I had all these like gripes perfect and I had all these like gripes perfect and I had all these like gripes in my 20s but like hey for the most part in my 20s but like hey for the most part in my 20s but like hey for the most part this is great let's go let's go back if this is great let's go let's go back if this is great let's go let's go back if maybe we took a break for a little while maybe we took a break for a little while maybe we took a break for a little while I have this quotee here um in respect to I have this quotee here um in respect to I have this quotee here um in respect to this from Camille Paglia sneering at this from Camille Paglia sneering at this from Camille Paglia sneering at religion is juvenile symptomatic of a religion is juvenile symptomatic of a religion is juvenile symptomatic of a stunted imagination and it it makes me stunted imagination and it it makes me stunted imagination and it it makes me think about this trend towards

think about this trend towards think about this trend towards agnosticism this trend towards uh a agnosticism this trend towards uh a agnosticism this trend towards uh a religiousness and and how it might be a religiousness and and how it might be a religiousness and and how it might be a lot to do with just the age of folks and lot to do with just the age of folks and lot to do with just the age of folks and and surely there's a different Trend and surely there's a different Trend and surely there's a different Trend across Generations how much does across Generations how much does across Generations how much does cultural Christianity play into that but cultural Christianity play into that but cultural Christianity play into that but uh but I'll get into why I think that uh but I'll get into why I think that uh but I'll get into why I think that this is not going to be the future of this is not going to be the future of this is not going to be the future of what we see as someone who famously what we see as someone who famously what we see as someone who famously hates LED walls and fancy production uh hates LED walls and fancy production uh hates LED walls and fancy production uh Rah raw from you well like my first my Rah raw from you well like my first my Rah raw from you well like my first my first instinct when when you read this first instinct when when you read this first instinct when when you read this one was like oh I'd love to know the one was like oh I'd love to know the one was like oh I'd love to know the demographics because you said this was demographics because you said this was demographics because you said this was probably the most frequent one that came probably the most frequent one that came probably the most frequent one that came in I'd love to know the demographics of in I'd love to know the demographics of in I'd love to know the demographics of the folks who wrote These in not just the folks who wrote These in not just the folks who wrote These in not just like their age but what um where they like their age but what um where they like their age but what um where they live geographically I'm curious what live geographically I'm curious what live geographically I'm curious what impact um like Suburban uh versus rural impact um like Suburban uh versus rural impact um like Suburban uh versus rural communities and people who who live in communities and people who who live in communities and people who who live in those areas or like big city centers those areas or like big city centers those areas or like big city centers like we're we're just down the road from like we're we're just down the road from like we're we're just down the road from from Toronto the biggest city in Canada from Toronto the biggest city in Canada from Toronto the biggest city in Canada one of the most multi cultural cities in one of the most multi cultural cities in one of the most multi cultural cities in the world um what someone my age or what the world um what someone my age or what the world um what someone my age or what someone the average gen Z person would someone the average gen Z person would someone the average gen Z person would say about what they desire from church say about what they desire from church say about what they desire from church in uh downtown Toronto would expect from in uh downtown Toronto would expect from in uh downtown Toronto would expect from church compared to someone who lives in church compared to someone who lives in church compared to someone who lives in rural Niagara and Wine Country I think rural Niagara and Wine Country I think rural Niagara and Wine Country I think that actually that actually plays like a that actually that actually plays like a that actually that actually plays like a really big role in the disposition really big role in the disposition really big role in the disposition towards what they're looking for what towards what they're looking for what towards what they're looking for what folks are looking for from church um folks are looking for from church um folks are looking for from church um just because like I think what you look just because like I think what you look just because like I think what you look for from any Community um is is informed for from any Community um is is informed for from any Community um is is informed a lot by your Rhythm of Life outside

a lot by your Rhythm of Life outside a lot by your Rhythm of Life outside that community so if you're downtown that community so if you're downtown that community so if you're downtown Toronto you don't own a car and you're Toronto you don't own a car and you're Toronto you don't own a car and you're like you're an artsy folk or or you're like you're an artsy folk or or you're like you're an artsy folk or or you're you're a creative um you work at a you're a creative um you work at a you're a creative um you work at a startup in Toronto like it makes sense startup in Toronto like it makes sense startup in Toronto like it makes sense that when you're looking for a faith that when you're looking for a faith that when you're looking for a faith community you would probably want one community you would probably want one community you would probably want one that is synonymous with the rest of your that is synonymous with the rest of your that is synonymous with the rest of your work week like if you walk past young work week like if you walk past young work week like if you walk past young and dund and dund and dund every day you may and you're you're every day you may and you're you're every day you may and you're you're inundated with like all this Led Tech inundated with like all this Led Tech inundated with like all this Led Tech and like the city the city's amazing we and like the city the city's amazing we and like the city the city's amazing we took Asher to the city a couple weeks took Asher to the city a couple weeks took Asher to the city a couple weeks ago for the first time like as a as an ago for the first time like as a as an ago for the first time like as a as an aware person he's three and he was just aware person he's three and he was just aware person he's three and he was just he he he couldn't stop from looking up he he he couldn't stop from looking up he he he couldn't stop from looking up just because he's seeing scale of things just because he's seeing scale of things just because he's seeing scale of things buildings and advertisements and sounds buildings and advertisements and sounds buildings and advertisements and sounds and cars and trucks like that he's never and cars and trucks like that he's never and cars and trucks like that he's never seen before and so my instinct is that seen before and so my instinct is that seen before and so my instinct is that if you live in a place like that you're if you live in a place like that you're if you live in a place like that you're probably drawn towards a community that probably drawn towards a community that probably drawn towards a community that is a little bit bigger and in some cases is a little bit bigger and in some cases is a little bit bigger and in some cases as far as technology goes better than as far as technology goes better than as far as technology goes better than folks who live where I live which is folks who live where I live which is folks who live where I live which is like um you know um former menites or like um you know um former menites or like um you know um former menites or retired Farmers or uh folks who were retired Farmers or uh folks who were retired Farmers or uh folks who were born and raised in small town nager on born and raised in small town nager on born and raised in small town nager on the lake um I wonder aloud if where you the lake um I wonder aloud if where you the lake um I wonder aloud if where you were born and raised or where you're were born and raised or where you're were born and raised or where you're currently living has a lot to do with currently living has a lot to do with currently living has a lot to do with what you're expecting from a faith what you're expecting from a faith what you're expecting from a faith community I the reason I was skeptical community I the reason I was skeptical community I the reason I was skeptical of this is because I of this is because I of this is because I don't believe that we lose our desire don't believe that we lose our desire don't believe that we lose our desire for production value I think it gets for production value I think it gets for production value I think it gets expressed differently across different expressed differently across different expressed differently across different generations and but the root of the generations and but the root of the generations and but the root of the human nature Remains the Same so here's

human nature Remains the Same so here's human nature Remains the Same so here's like one example of that Millennials are like one example of that Millennials are like one example of that Millennials are famous in interior design for like just famous in interior design for like just famous in interior design for like just painting everything white right and and painting everything white right and and painting everything white right and and J welcome to either of our homes right J welcome to either of our homes right J welcome to either of our homes right and and I me look at so gen Z comes and and I me look at so gen Z comes and and I me look at so gen Z comes around and they've been like Millennial around and they've been like Millennial around and they've been like Millennial white is soulless and it's f on Tik Tok white is soulless and it's f on Tik Tok white is soulless and it's f on Tik Tok seeing like the passion amongst people seeing like the passion amongst people seeing like the passion amongst people 10 years younger than me for like their 10 years younger than me for like their 10 years younger than me for like their first apartments and and I can't like so first apartments and and I can't like so first apartments and and I can't like so many of them are like they're not buying many of them are like they're not buying many of them are like they're not buying stuff from Ikea right they're getting stuff from Ikea right they're getting stuff from Ikea right they're getting like these antique things and they're like these antique things and they're like these antique things and they're spending a ton of money on like coffee spending a ton of money on like coffee spending a ton of money on like coffee table books and like the perfect lights table books and like the perfect lights table books and like the perfect lights and they care so much about um selecting and they care so much about um selecting and they care so much about um selecting certain pieces and I imagine if those certain pieces and I imagine if those certain pieces and I imagine if those same people went to a church and they same people went to a church and they same people went to a church and they went to a giant like aluminum box with went to a giant like aluminum box with went to a giant like aluminum box with all of these like big lights and stuff all of these like big lights and stuff all of these like big lights and stuff they'd be like this I do not like fancy they'd be like this I do not like fancy they'd be like this I do not like fancy production but then if they went to a production but then if they went to a production but then if they went to a place that spent the same amount of place that spent the same amount of place that spent the same amount of money time care and Creative Energy on money time care and Creative Energy on money time care and Creative Energy on like crafting uh an intentional Space like crafting uh an intentional Space like crafting uh an intentional Space full of like beautiful design pieces full of like beautiful design pieces full of like beautiful design pieces there's not a single thing from like there's not a single thing from like there's not a single thing from like Ikea there's nothing stock there's Ikea there's nothing stock there's Ikea there's nothing stock there's nothing that's like not handmade or nothing that's like not handmade or nothing that's like not handmade or curated or Boutique whatever it might be curated or Boutique whatever it might be curated or Boutique whatever it might be and they like ah see no production value and they like ah see no production value and they like ah see no production value here to which I would say this is the here to which I would say this is the here to which I would say this is the exact same amount of budget and exact same amount of budget and exact same amount of budget and creativity and effort and idolatry on creativity and effort and idolatry on creativity and effort and idolatry on the worst side of things being spent the worst side of things being spent the worst side of things being spent here it's just being expressed in a here it's just being expressed in a here it's just being expressed in a different way and then the other cynical different way and then the other cynical different way and then the other cynical part of this would be like what is the part of this would be like what is the part of this would be like what is the most popular thing that happened this

most popular thing that happened this most popular thing that happened this year the AAS tour it was way more year the AAS tour it was way more year the AAS tour it was way more popular in movie theaters than anyone popular in movie theaters than anyone popular in movie theaters than anyone expected it was of course maybe the expected it was of course maybe the expected it was of course maybe the biggest tour like ever or at least in biggest tour like ever or at least in biggest tour like ever or at least in decades Tor is the most popular human on decades Tor is the most popular human on decades Tor is the most popular human on planet Earth honestly and I've seen the planet Earth honestly and I've seen the planet Earth honestly and I've seen the movie have you like it is incredibly movie have you like it is incredibly movie have you like it is incredibly High produced and it's all just young High produced and it's all just young High produced and it's all just young people screaming and what happens I people screaming and what happens I people screaming and what happens I remember when I was a young person you remember when I was a young person you remember when I was a young person you go to church and you get a bit of taste go to church and you get a bit of taste go to church and you get a bit of taste for that and you're like wow we're doing for that and you're like wow we're doing for that and you're like wow we're doing this but we're doing it for the Lord and this but we're doing it for the Lord and this but we're doing it for the Lord and it feels like this thing that I enjoy it feels like this thing that I enjoy it feels like this thing that I enjoy outside of church we can do that but outside of church we can do that but outside of church we can do that but instead of putting our mind and focus on instead of putting our mind and focus on instead of putting our mind and focus on a celebrity we can put our mind and a celebrity we can put our mind and a celebrity we can put our mind and focus on God this is a noble thing it's focus on God this is a noble thing it's focus on God this is a noble thing it's a virtuous thing and if you look at just a virtuous thing and if you look at just a virtuous thing and if you look at just like the all of Christian history like the all of Christian history like the all of Christian history there's just so many times where people there's just so many times where people there's just so many times where people wanted to do big things for God and then wanted to do big things for God and then wanted to do big things for God and then did it with the expression of scale and did it with the expression of scale and did it with the expression of scale and spectacle and so to think that we are spectacle and so to think that we are spectacle and so to think that we are going to just like eliminate that or going to just like eliminate that or going to just like eliminate that or remove that desire is something I'm very remove that desire is something I'm very remove that desire is something I'm very skeptical of yeah so as you say that and skeptical of yeah so as you say that and skeptical of yeah so as you say that and and I I agree um actually and I I agree um actually and I I agree um actually because houses of worship boasting scale because houses of worship boasting scale because houses of worship boasting scale and spectacle um um precede the LED wall and spectacle um um precede the LED wall and spectacle um um precede the LED wall by thousands of years exactly right you by thousands of years exactly right you by thousands of years exactly right you and I have been going we've been I've and I have been going we've been I've and I have been going we've been I've been I've been messing with you a little been I've been messing with you a little been I've been messing with you a little bit because you've been doing the series bit because you've been doing the series bit because you've been doing the series on the most beautiful modern churches on the most beautiful modern churches on the most beautiful modern churches which objectively those buildings are which objectively those buildings are which objectively those buildings are beautiful yeah every time house like oh beautiful yeah every time house like oh beautiful yeah every time house like oh another ugly one no I'll just send him another ugly one no I'll just send him another ugly one no I'll just send him like I I'll send him a a cathedral like I I'll send him a a cathedral like I I'll send him a a cathedral that's like you know hundreds of years that's like you know hundreds of years that's like you know hundreds of years old to be like no it's it's Gothic old to be like no it's it's Gothic old to be like no it's it's Gothic architecture this is what we need but

architecture this is what we need but architecture this is what we need but those buildings like for for most of those buildings like for for most of those buildings like for for most of human history uh uh the church the human history uh uh the church the human history uh uh the church the steeple has been the highest point in steeple has been the highest point in steeple has been the highest point in the city because it's it's meant to draw the city because it's it's meant to draw the city because it's it's meant to draw attention towards the heavens if you attention towards the heavens if you attention towards the heavens if you walk into any well-designed uh Cathedral walk into any well-designed uh Cathedral walk into any well-designed uh Cathedral or old house of worship you'll know you or old house of worship you'll know you or old house of worship you'll know you know folks who are listening who went to know folks who are listening who went to know folks who are listening who went to Catholic church with their grandparents Catholic church with their grandparents Catholic church with their grandparents or whatever anyone or still go to or whatever anyone or still go to or whatever anyone or still go to Catholic Church anyone who goes to a Catholic Church anyone who goes to a Catholic Church anyone who goes to a house of worship that's a cathedral house of worship that's a cathedral house of worship that's a cathedral style will know that they are they are style will know that they are they are style will know that they are they are grandiose they are over the toop with um grandiose they are over the toop with um grandiose they are over the toop with um architecture and imagery to the highest architecture and imagery to the highest architecture and imagery to the highest ceilings you've ever seen I don't know ceilings you've ever seen I don't know ceilings you've ever seen I don't know how you get a ceiling fan up that high how you get a ceiling fan up that high how you get a ceiling fan up that high but they do it because the ceilings are but they do it because the ceilings are but they do it because the ceilings are meant to draw your attention up towards meant to draw your attention up towards meant to draw your attention up towards the heavens the stained glass it's all the heavens the stained glass it's all the heavens the stained glass it's all it's over the top in a different way it's over the top in a different way it's over the top in a different way than the modern LED wall but arguably than the modern LED wall but arguably than the modern LED wall but arguably for the same purpose to draw our for the same purpose to draw our for the same purpose to draw our attention towards what we profess to be attention towards what we profess to be attention towards what we profess to be The Greatest Story Ever Told so yeah I The Greatest Story Ever Told so yeah I The Greatest Story Ever Told so yeah I mean we've kind of opened the lid on mean we've kind of opened the lid on mean we've kind of opened the lid on this one a little bit to see that like this one a little bit to see that like this one a little bit to see that like okay this this um attraction to okay this this um attraction to okay this this um attraction to spectacle or Excellence or curation um spectacle or Excellence or curation um spectacle or Excellence or curation um is not new it's not even modern it's is not new it's not even modern it's is not new it's not even modern it's it's it's the tale of of human worship it's it's the tale of of human worship it's it's the tale of of human worship and I'm still attracted to um you know a and I'm still attracted to um you know a and I'm still attracted to um you know a a more Gothic Cathedral type thing but a more Gothic Cathedral type thing but a more Gothic Cathedral type thing but that's just my that's my taste and I that's just my that's my taste and I that's just my that's my taste and I think that's actually informed a little think that's actually informed a little think that's actually informed a little bit by my like theological bent but for bit by my like theological bent but for bit by my like theological bent but for folks who who don't lean towards like um folks who who don't lean towards like um folks who who don't lean towards like um Anglican prayer books like I do and lean Anglican prayer books like I do and lean Anglican prayer books like I do and lean towards something a little different towards something a little different towards something a little different well then what they're looking for is

well then what they're looking for is well then what they're looking for is going to be a more modern expression of going to be a more modern expression of going to be a more modern expression of that um so I think actually as as we've that um so I think actually as as we've that um so I think actually as as we've teed this teased this out I think you teed this teased this out I think you teed this teased this out I think you and I might agree on this one I think and I might agree on this one I think and I might agree on this one I think I'm going to come off as the bad guy in I'm going to come off as the bad guy in I'm going to come off as the bad guy in every one of these these questions I'm every one of these these questions I'm every one of these these questions I'm just trying to approach this as a just trying to approach this as a just trying to approach this as a realist totally everything I'm realist totally everything I'm realist totally everything I'm presenting here it does not bear on my presenting here it does not bear on my presenting here it does not bear on my personal opinions or personal opinions or personal opinions or preferences uh maybe opinions isn't preferences uh maybe opinions isn't preferences uh maybe opinions isn't correct like how I would prefer to do correct like how I would prefer to do correct like how I would prefer to do things it's just just this is what I things it's just just this is what I things it's just just this is what I kind of see happening because when I was kind of see happening because when I was kind of see happening because when I was reading through all of these responses reading through all of these responses reading through all of these responses what I heard what I heard what I heard was folks that are working in church was folks that are working in church was folks that are working in church that are overworked and underpaid with that are overworked and underpaid with that are overworked and underpaid with these expectations that their church these expectations that their church these expectations that their church needs to look just like the church that needs to look just like the church that needs to look just like the church that has way more people and way more resour has way more people and way more resour has way more people and way more resour and they're just like I can't do this and they're just like I can't do this and they're just like I can't do this anymore enough I want to go back to just anymore enough I want to go back to just anymore enough I want to go back to just or go to the first for the first time to or go to the first for the first time to or go to the first for the first time to something more simple and I I was like something more simple and I I was like something more simple and I I was like you know reading between the lines and you know reading between the lines and you know reading between the lines and feeling compassion for these people feeling compassion for these people feeling compassion for these people because I I know what it's like and then because I I know what it's like and then because I I know what it's like and then I was also like does their opinion and I was also like does their opinion and I was also like does their opinion and posture on this match their posture on this match their posture on this match their congregations congregations congregations MH like is the appetite amongst consumer MH like is the appetite amongst consumer MH like is the appetite amongst consumer Christianity that it seems like is Christianity that it seems like is Christianity that it seems like is declining but is right now one of like declining but is right now one of like declining but is right now one of like the main existing potent forms of the main existing potent forms of the main existing potent forms of Christianity in respect to like tithing Christianity in respect to like tithing Christianity in respect to like tithing and donations and that gets back to and donations and that gets back to and donations and that gets back to viability we have talked so much on this

viability we have talked so much on this viability we have talked so much on this show about like different models of show about like different models of show about like different models of church well how are you going to support church well how are you going to support church well how are you going to support it so well and that's that's like to it so well and that's that's like to it so well and that's that's like to what I to what I I said in in that first what I to what I I said in in that first what I to what I I said in in that first um that first one about viability for um that first one about viability for um that first one about viability for for our church the are so low because we for our church the are so low because we for our church the are so low because we don't we're not people's livelihoods are don't we're not people's livelihoods are don't we're not people's livelihoods are not dependent on our church like we not dependent on our church like we not dependent on our church like we don't we don't pay anyone but for a don't we don't pay anyone but for a don't we don't pay anyone but for a church of 250 or more where you have church of 250 or more where you have church of 250 or more where you have staff and like or like viability is a staff and like or like viability is a staff and like or like viability is a major concern because you don't want to major concern because you don't want to major concern because you don't want to be laying off staff you take care of be laying off staff you take care of be laying off staff you take care of these people by paying their salaries these people by paying their salaries these people by paying their salaries for us it's like well if if our house of for us it's like well if if our house of for us it's like well if if our house of worship has to close its doors like worship has to close its doors like worship has to close its doors like nobody loses a job because of that so nobody loses a job because of that so nobody loses a job because of that so the stakes are a lot lower that's why the stakes are a lot lower that's why the stakes are a lot lower that's why it's easier for me to say that it's a it's easier for me to say that it's a it's easier for me to say that it's a similar the similar you know um phrase similar the similar you know um phrase similar the similar you know um phrase of of how much more difficult it is to of of how much more difficult it is to of of how much more difficult it is to turn a large ship than a small one it's turn a large ship than a small one it's turn a large ship than a small one it's like for us we're just a little a little like for us we're just a little a little like for us we're just a little a little jet booat floating around we can we can jet booat floating around we can we can jet booat floating around we can we can we can maneuver however we need to we can maneuver however we need to we can maneuver however we need to wherever we need to go um but my I I do wherever we need to go um but my I I do wherever we need to go um but my I I do have of course sympathy for churches have of course sympathy for churches have of course sympathy for churches who have staff members and all sorts of who have staff members and all sorts of who have staff members and all sorts of volunteers that that depend on the volunteers that that depend on the volunteers that that depend on the viability of that house of worship viability of that house of worship viability of that house of worship that's that's something that that our that's that's something that that our that's that's something that that our little house of worship doesn't have little house of worship doesn't have little house of worship doesn't have concern for right now one of the hot concern for right now one of the hot concern for right now one of the hot takes that I'll discuss in that YouTube takes that I'll discuss in that YouTube takes that I'll discuss in that YouTube video that's coming out in a couple of video that's coming out in a couple of video that's coming out in a couple of weeks was uh and I tried to keep them weeks was uh and I tried to keep them weeks was uh and I tried to keep them separate in that video in this one but a separate in that video in this one but a separate in that video in this one but a lot of them are kind of being they're lot of them are kind of being they're lot of them are kind of being they're coming from the same place I think was coming from the same place I think was coming from the same place I think was you're going to see more and more you're going to see more and more you're going to see more and more bivocational pastors and that becomes a bivocational pastors and that becomes a bivocational pastors and that becomes a reflection of what you're describing reflection of what you're describing reflection of what you're describing here right like Hey we're more Nimble here right like Hey we're more Nimble here right like Hey we're more Nimble and agile as a church uh because the

and agile as a church uh because the and agile as a church uh because the pastor's compensation is not their pastor's compensation is not their pastor's compensation is not their livelihood and so if that disappeared livelihood and so if that disappeared livelihood and so if that disappeared because we did something that by because we did something that by because we did something that by definition is not going to attract definition is not going to attract definition is not going to attract hundreds and hundreds of people but is hundreds and hundreds of people but is hundreds and hundreds of people but is faithful to what we believe we are faithful to what we believe we are faithful to what we believe we are called to do the risk becomes lower but called to do the risk becomes lower but called to do the risk becomes lower but of course you're of course you're of course you're also a church that owns their own also a church that owns their own also a church that owns their own building yeah that's true and so what we building yeah that's true and so what we building yeah that's true and so what we know about church budgets is that it's know about church budgets is that it's know about church budgets is that it's the staff and it's the building that the staff and it's the building that the staff and it's the building that costs the most so we could let's say costs the most so we could let's say costs the most so we could let's say remove a big chunk of that if more and remove a big chunk of that if more and remove a big chunk of that if more and more pastors become bivocational and more pastors become bivocational and more pastors become bivocational and from that same study it had about 25% from that same study it had about 25% from that same study it had about 25% right now um pastors that are like part right now um pastors that are like part right now um pastors that are like part time they're bivocational so we'd have time they're bivocational so we'd have time they're bivocational so we'd have to double that to get to more than half to double that to get to more than half to double that to get to more than half okay that seems realistic in the next okay that seems realistic in the next okay that seems realistic in the next you know 10 to 25 years so then we you know 10 to 25 years so then we you know 10 to 25 years so then we remove that part of the equation in the remove that part of the equation in the remove that part of the equation in the budget but we still then have the budget but we still then have the budget but we still then have the massive building cost rent mortgage massive building cost rent mortgage massive building cost rent mortgage utilities maintenance utilities maintenance utilities maintenance improvements improvements improvements so you know again yeah how real so you know again yeah how real so you know again yeah how real realistic is it let's move to the next realistic is it let's move to the next realistic is it let's move to the next one uh pastors have to be more like one uh pastors have to be more like one uh pastors have to be more like entrepreneurs or CEOs when you become um entrepreneurs or CEOs when you become um entrepreneurs or CEOs when you become um someone that runs a a business one of someone that runs a a business one of someone that runs a a business one of the things that you get told is okay the things that you get told is okay the things that you get told is okay there's the thing that you do that there's the thing that you do that there's the thing that you do that people find valuable in the marketplace people find valuable in the marketplace people find valuable in the marketplace you have to be good at that now you also you have to be good at that now you also you have to be good at that now you also have to be proficient at running a have to be proficient at running a have to be proficient at running a business I was listening to a doctor business I was listening to a doctor business I was listening to a doctor talk yesterday and they were saying you talk yesterday and they were saying you talk yesterday and they were saying you know when you're in medical school know when you're in medical school know when you're in medical school everything is just about like medicine everything is just about like medicine everything is just about like medicine and biology it's like most of my job is

and biology it's like most of my job is and biology it's like most of my job is sociology and being like a real person sociology and being like a real person sociology and being like a real person to people in crisis and you have to be to people in crisis and you have to be to people in crisis and you have to be good at both and I think we've all seen good at both and I think we've all seen good at both and I think we've all seen a Doctor Who a lot like a robot surely a Doctor Who a lot like a robot surely a Doctor Who a lot like a robot surely they're quite brilliant and proficient they're quite brilliant and proficient they're quite brilliant and proficient in medicine but you're like can you have in medicine but you're like can you have in medicine but you're like can you have some Compassion or like acknowledge my some Compassion or like acknowledge my some Compassion or like acknowledge my feelings here and they're like that's feelings here and they're like that's feelings here and they're like that's just not what I do because it's very just not what I do because it's very just not what I do because it's very difficult to do both things this is also difficult to do both things this is also difficult to do both things this is also true of of pastors you know if we're true of of pastors you know if we're true of of pastors you know if we're going to talk about the future being going to talk about the future being going to talk about the future being smaller churches the future being smaller churches the future being smaller churches the future being smaller budgets the future being smaller budgets the future being smaller budgets the future being bivocational Ministry you're going to bivocational Ministry you're going to bivocational Ministry you're going to have to be like proficient at church have to be like proficient at church have to be like proficient at church you're also going to then have to be you're also going to then have to be you're also going to then have to be proficient at running church or someone proficient at running church or someone proficient at running church or someone else is going to have to be I've heard else is going to have to be I've heard else is going to have to be I've heard this conversation discussed so many this conversation discussed so many this conversation discussed so many times you either have to be like the times you either have to be like the times you either have to be like the entrepreneurial Pastor or you have to be entrepreneurial Pastor or you have to be entrepreneurial Pastor or you have to be dedicated to being that Shepherd and dedicated to being that Shepherd and dedicated to being that Shepherd and someone else has to be able to do that someone else has to be able to do that someone else has to be able to do that other part that's it um it is a new year other part that's it um it is a new year other part that's it um it is a new year but I'm still going to continue quoting but I'm still going to continue quoting but I'm still going to continue quoting Eugene Peterson only because this story Eugene Peterson only because this story Eugene Peterson only because this story from his Memoir just marked me he talks from his Memoir just marked me he talks from his Memoir just marked me he talks about uh early on in his pastoral career about uh early on in his pastoral career about uh early on in his pastoral career uh coming to the he he went to uh an uh coming to the he he went to uh an uh coming to the he he went to uh an evening meeting with his leadership team evening meeting with his leadership team evening meeting with his leadership team with the intention to quit because he with the intention to quit because he with the intention to quit because he said and I quote I'm just so tired of said and I quote I'm just so tired of said and I quote I'm just so tired of running this damn ch running this damn ch running this damn ch that's what he said and that was it he that's what he said and that was it he that's what he said and that was it he was doing so much more um business Ops was doing so much more um business Ops was doing so much more um business Ops work than pastoring that he was like work than pastoring that he was like work than pastoring that he was like this is not first of all this is not this is not first of all this is not this is not first of all this is not what I signed up for second of all this what I signed up for second of all this what I signed up for second of all this is not like like who I am this is not is not like like who I am this is not is not like like who I am this is not using my gifts this feels like a a using my gifts this feels like a a using my gifts this feels like a a betrayal of my time my my attention My betrayal of my time my my attention My betrayal of my time my my attention My my what I feel like I'm designed to give my what I feel like I'm designed to give my what I feel like I'm designed to give the people that are in my care and it

the people that are in my care and it the people that are in my care and it was it was that he shared that with his was it was that he shared that with his was it was that he shared that with his team and they said okay how can we team and they said okay how can we team and they said okay how can we reorganize to to how where can other reorganize to to how where can other reorganize to to how where can other people step up to make sure that you people step up to make sure that you people step up to make sure that you don't have to do ab andc you can focus don't have to do ab andc you can focus don't have to do ab andc you can focus on being a pastor and that saved his on being a pastor and that saved his on being a pastor and that saved his pastoral career um and so I think like pastoral career um and so I think like pastoral career um and so I think like because I know this feeling I know what because I know this feeling I know what because I know this feeling I know what it feels like to have to do stuff that it feels like to have to do stuff that it feels like to have to do stuff that is outside of my scope of of just skill is outside of my scope of of just skill is outside of my scope of of just skill and a lot of that stuff takes from the and a lot of that stuff takes from the and a lot of that stuff takes from the Pastoral energy that I want to spend Pastoral energy that I want to spend Pastoral energy that I want to spend yeah and that just leaves you feeling yeah and that just leaves you feeling yeah and that just leaves you feeling like in a really frustrated position as like in a really frustrated position as like in a really frustrated position as a pastor um but do understand how when a pastor um but do understand how when a pastor um but do understand how when pastors just pastor and the other stuff pastors just pastor and the other stuff pastors just pastor and the other stuff NE gets neglected well then that's no NE gets neglected well then that's no NE gets neglected well then that's no recipe for a healthy Community either so recipe for a healthy Community either so recipe for a healthy Community either so the only answer to this one in my the only answer to this one in my the only answer to this one in my estimation is uh a holistic community estimation is uh a holistic community estimation is uh a holistic community that that decides to step up in whatever that that decides to step up in whatever that that decides to step up in whatever form or fashion whether it's other staff form or fashion whether it's other staff form or fashion whether it's other staff members or volunteers stepping up to do members or volunteers stepping up to do members or volunteers stepping up to do the stuff the entrepreneurial or the CEO the stuff the entrepreneurial or the CEO the stuff the entrepreneurial or the CEO type Behavior if that's not your type Behavior if that's not your type Behavior if that's not your pastor's uh wheelhouse um so that they pastor's uh wheelhouse um so that they pastor's uh wheelhouse um so that they can be who they are designed to be while can be who they are designed to be while can be who they are designed to be while the function of the church doesn't get the function of the church doesn't get the function of the church doesn't get neglected either one way I could see all neglected either one way I could see all neglected either one way I could see all of these things happening that I am of these things happening that I am of these things happening that I am skeptical of is if Church attendance skeptical of is if Church attendance skeptical of is if Church attendance continues to Trend continues to Trend continues to Trend down and this is just the down and this is just the down and this is just the reality the environment for change reality the environment for change reality the environment for change becomes a lot more like ready to go um I

becomes a lot more like ready to go um I becomes a lot more like ready to go um I was listening to a book that was talking was listening to a book that was talking was listening to a book that was talking about innovation over the decades and about innovation over the decades and about innovation over the decades and how in the 1940s during the war um how in the 1940s during the war um how in the 1940s during the war um Innovation dramatically increased Innovation dramatically increased Innovation dramatically increased without working hours increasing why without working hours increasing why without working hours increasing why because the necessity for change was because the necessity for change was because the necessity for change was there uh this book also talked about how there uh this book also talked about how there uh this book also talked about how so much of the innovations that we have so much of the innovations that we have so much of the innovations that we have are from the military because when they are from the military because when they are from the military because when they were working on things like either we were working on things like either we were working on things like either we die or we fix this right and how like die or we fix this right and how like die or we fix this right and how like the Bedrock of like the road system and the Bedrock of like the road system and the Bedrock of like the road system and the internet was all because the the internet was all because the the internet was all because the military was like we are trying to military was like we are trying to military was like we are trying to outsmart another great nation in the outsmart another great nation in the outsmart another great nation in the world we will take whatever you have world we will take whatever you have world we will take whatever you have whereas the rest of the world like we're whereas the rest of the world like we're whereas the rest of the world like we're pretty fine we're not going to like ADT pretty fine we're not going to like ADT pretty fine we're not going to like ADT something new and we have been in a very something new and we have been in a very something new and we have been in a very comfy place as churches maybe not for comfy place as churches maybe not for comfy place as churches maybe not for most of our lives but for like the most of our lives but for like the most of our lives but for like the previous generations in terms of like a previous generations in terms of like a previous generations in terms of like a lot of people go to church a lot of lot of people go to church a lot of lot of people go to church a lot of churches are viable just as churches are viable just as churches are viable just as organizations if that becomes organizations if that becomes organizations if that becomes continually threatened I don't think continually threatened I don't think continually threatened I don't think these choices get made by election but I these choices get made by election but I these choices get made by election but I do a world where they are being made out do a world where they are being made out do a world where they are being made out of necessity well that was so many of us of necessity well that was so many of us of necessity well that was so many of us came to that point in in March of 2020 came to that point in in March of 2020 came to that point in in March of 2020 right um a global pandemic or this right um a global pandemic or this right um a global pandemic or this shared grief kind of kind of shut down a shared grief kind of kind of shut down a shared grief kind of kind of shut down a lot of our normal operations and and lot of our normal operations and and lot of our normal operations and and gave us a lot of space and a lot of gave us a lot of space and a lot of gave us a lot of space and a lot of reason to ask these questions for the reason to ask these questions for the reason to ask these questions for the first time um you know for us I've first time um you know for us I've first time um you know for us I've shared this on the show before but for shared this on the show before but for shared this on the show before but for us we we took some we got some space us we we took some we got some space us we we took some we got some space from church we weren't meeting in person from church we weren't meeting in person from church we weren't meeting in person and a lot of us who are working really and a lot of us who are working really and a lot of us who are working really hard in church bearing a lot of the load

hard in church bearing a lot of the load hard in church bearing a lot of the load realized oh that was too much we weren't realized oh that was too much we weren't realized oh that was too much we weren't doing that very well before I am doing that very well before I am doing that very well before I am breathing easier now and so it gave us breathing easier now and so it gave us breathing easier now and so it gave us the space to introduce some some new you the space to introduce some some new you the space to introduce some some new you know systems and structures going know systems and structures going know systems and structures going forward equipping some other folks to forward equipping some other folks to forward equipping some other folks to Bear some of that load to do some of Bear some of that load to do some of Bear some of that load to do some of that work and so now on the other side that work and so now on the other side that work and so now on the other side of that three four years later now um of that three four years later now um of that three four years later now um our church our community is feeling in a our church our community is feeling in a our church our community is feeling in a much in a much healthier um way um folks much in a much healthier um way um folks much in a much healthier um way um folks like me and and my dad who's also a like me and and my dad who's also a like me and and my dad who's also a pastor at our church are doing a lot pastor at our church are doing a lot pastor at our church are doing a lot less of that stuff we've empowered other less of that stuff we've empowered other less of that stuff we've empowered other people to but it took that Global event people to but it took that Global event people to but it took that Global event to bring us to that point um Eugene to bring us to that point um Eugene to bring us to that point um Eugene Peterson it it took his church him Peterson it it took his church him Peterson it it took his church him coming into a staff meeting saying I'm coming into a staff meeting saying I'm coming into a staff meeting saying I'm done I'm going to quit it took that done I'm going to quit it took that done I'm going to quit it took that moment for them to to reevaluate so yeah moment for them to to reevaluate so yeah moment for them to to reevaluate so yeah it really does require like it it often it really does require like it it often it really does require like it it often it often there is often is a moment that it often there is often is a moment that it often there is often is a moment that NE necessitates that kind of that kind NE necessitates that kind of that kind NE necessitates that kind of that kind of change next hot take this will be a of change next hot take this will be a of change next hot take this will be a quick one it's mostly for you quick one it's mostly for you quick one it's mostly for you charismatic Anglican churches are going charismatic Anglican churches are going charismatic Anglican churches are going to explode in popularity and grow like to explode in popularity and grow like to explode in popularity and grow like crazy hey this wasn't this wasn't me who crazy hey this wasn't this wasn't me who crazy hey this wasn't this wasn't me who wrote this in but I I'm just I'm so wrote this in but I I'm just I'm so wrote this in but I I'm just I'm so fascinated by um this trend that I'm fascinated by um this trend that I'm fascinated by um this trend that I'm seeing I'm not sure how many of our seeing I'm not sure how many of our seeing I'm not sure how many of our listeners are seeing U whether online or listeners are seeing U whether online or listeners are seeing U whether online or in their personal like Faith expression in their personal like Faith expression in their personal like Faith expression but this desire I I have called it and I but this desire I I have called it and I but this desire I I have called it and I didn't coin this phrase but like UK didn't coin this phrase but like UK didn't coin this phrase but like UK Eucharistic communities um which are Eucharistic communities um which are Eucharistic communities um which are like um this this fresh Faith kind of like um this this fresh Faith kind of like um this this fresh Faith kind of expression of of charismatic Pentecostal expression of of charismatic Pentecostal expression of of charismatic Pentecostal Faith but also rooted in in tradition

Faith but also rooted in in tradition Faith but also rooted in in tradition and not scared of like of liturgy um and and not scared of like of liturgy um and and not scared of like of liturgy um and so that that really that's that's really so that that really that's that's really so that that really that's that's really that's the kind of community that we're that's the kind of community that we're that's the kind of community that we're curating right now at our church um and curating right now at our church um and curating right now at our church um and we're not alone I I know a lot of people we're not alone I I know a lot of people we're not alone I I know a lot of people especially in the digital space who are especially in the digital space who are especially in the digital space who are are marrying these two expressions of are marrying these two expressions of are marrying these two expressions of Christian faith together like this this Christian faith together like this this Christian faith together like this this active move of the spirit but also this active move of the spirit but also this active move of the spirit but also this rootedness in in um past and history and rootedness in in um past and history and rootedness in in um past and history and liturgy and um yeah it's it's liturgy and um yeah it's it's liturgy and um yeah it's it's fascinating to me it's lifegiving to me fascinating to me it's lifegiving to me fascinating to me it's lifegiving to me obviously as you can tell if you're obviously as you can tell if you're obviously as you can tell if you're listening to me or watching me here um listening to me or watching me here um listening to me or watching me here um and I know that that we're not alone in and I know that that we're not alone in and I know that that we're not alone in this so I I would I I I would have to this so I I would I I I would have to this so I I would I I I would have to agree that that I mean the questioner agree that that I mean the questioner agree that that I mean the questioner says are going to explode in popularity says are going to explode in popularity says are going to explode in popularity and grow like crazy maybe but C and grow like crazy maybe but C and grow like crazy maybe but C certainly these these communities are certainly these these communities are certainly these these communities are growing and and I'm I'm I'm encouraged growing and and I'm I'm I'm encouraged growing and and I'm I'm I'm encouraged by that next up great worship and kids by that next up great worship and kids by that next up great worship and kids ministry is the secret to growth in the ministry is the secret to growth in the ministry is the secret to growth in the future preaching not as future preaching not as future preaching not as important so the reason I'm skeptical important so the reason I'm skeptical important so the reason I'm skeptical about this one again barring dramatic about this one again barring dramatic about this one again barring dramatic change is that I think this could only change is that I think this could only change is that I think this could only happen if a Church's kind of typical happen if a Church's kind of typical happen if a Church's kind of typical order of service was changed order of service was changed order of service was changed dramatically because if you think about dramatically because if you think about dramatically because if you think about time spent most time in a typical time spent most time in a typical time spent most time in a typical worship service is going to be on the worship service is going to be on the worship service is going to be on the preaching if you have worship for 30 preaching if you have worship for 30 preaching if you have worship for 30 minutes and announcements for 50 minutes minutes and announcements for 50 minutes minutes and announcements for 50 minutes and then preaching for 40 right and then preaching for 40 right and then preaching for 40 right something like that and then response something like that and then response something like that and then response for 15 whatever it might be the biggest for 15 whatever it might be the biggest for 15 whatever it might be the biggest chunk of that pie is the sermon so I chunk of that pie is the sermon so I chunk of that pie is the sermon so I don't see how those two ideas become

don't see how those two ideas become don't see how those two ideas become congruent because if they were by congruent because if they were by congruent because if they were by necessity we would then want to shrink necessity we would then want to shrink necessity we would then want to shrink the preaching Time by a lot right like the preaching Time by a lot right like the preaching Time by a lot right like if the biggest reason that people were if the biggest reason that people were if the biggest reason that people were coming or the coming or the coming or the greatest value that we were giving to greatest value that we were giving to greatest value that we were giving to people's lives was worship and kids people's lives was worship and kids people's lives was worship and kids ministry does it make sense then to ministry does it make sense then to ministry does it make sense then to spend like the most part of the service spend like the most part of the service spend like the most part of the service on something that would by what they're on something that would by what they're on something that would by what they're saying not be one of the top priorities saying not be one of the top priorities saying not be one of the top priorities yeah I mean this this question and the yeah I mean this this question and the yeah I mean this this question and the way it's the way it's phrased reminded way it's the way it's phrased reminded way it's the way it's phrased reminded me of our conversation with Dr Cara me of our conversation with Dr Cara me of our conversation with Dr Cara Powell U when from the the Fuller youth Powell U when from the the Fuller youth Powell U when from the the Fuller youth Institute when she talked about churches Institute when she talked about churches Institute when she talked about churches that are growing are disproportionately that are growing are disproportionately that are growing are disproportionately prioritizing young people and um that prioritizing young people and um that prioritizing young people and um that conversation has come up so many times conversation has come up so many times conversation has come up so many times in my personal life since we had it just in my personal life since we had it just in my personal life since we had it just talking about um Church viability Church talking about um Church viability Church talking about um Church viability Church growth um kids programming and such and growth um kids programming and such and growth um kids programming and such and again our church pre-o our sermon again our church pre-o our sermon again our church pre-o our sermon preaching was um was was the majority of preaching was um was was the majority of preaching was um was was the majority of our our gathering time 30 35 40 minutes our our gathering time 30 35 40 minutes our our gathering time 30 35 40 minutes post Co it's 20 minutes 25 minutes we post Co it's 20 minutes 25 minutes we post Co it's 20 minutes 25 minutes we have rearranged the order of our service have rearranged the order of our service have rearranged the order of our service a little bit um um giving more time to a little bit um um giving more time to a little bit um um giving more time to to uh prayer we're praying through the to uh prayer we're praying through the to uh prayer we're praying through the Psalms um sometimes I'll even just Psalms um sometimes I'll even just Psalms um sometimes I'll even just preach for 10 minutes and leave the preach for 10 minutes and leave the preach for 10 minutes and leave the other 10 or 15 minutes give give that to other 10 or 15 minutes give give that to other 10 or 15 minutes give give that to like some sort of spiritual practice like some sort of spiritual practice like some sort of spiritual practice whether it's U like um conversation or whether it's U like um conversation or whether it's U like um conversation or question time or interpersonal prayer question time or interpersonal prayer question time or interpersonal prayer stuff like that um we'll do like a stuff like that um we'll do like a stuff like that um we'll do like a guided scripture reading like Leo deina guided scripture reading like Leo deina guided scripture reading like Leo deina so we are toying with this but the thing so we are toying with this but the thing so we are toying with this but the thing about that is for our church the kids about that is for our church the kids about that is for our church the kids are in during worship and they only go

are in during worship and they only go are in during worship and they only go out during the preaching time so if you out during the preaching time so if you out during the preaching time so if you shorten down the preaching time that shorten down the preaching time that shorten down the preaching time that also shortens the kids ministry time um also shortens the kids ministry time um also shortens the kids ministry time um and that's actually been a little bit of and that's actually been a little bit of and that's actually been a little bit of a challenge to us if we're only sending a challenge to us if we're only sending a challenge to us if we're only sending the kids out for 20 minutes sometimes the kids out for 20 minutes sometimes the kids out for 20 minutes sometimes the teachers feel a little handcuffed the teachers feel a little handcuffed the teachers feel a little handcuffed like oh we don't have enough time to do like oh we don't have enough time to do like oh we don't have enough time to do what we wanted to do or what we wanted to do or what we wanted to do or um so it's really hard to prioritize one um so it's really hard to prioritize one um so it's really hard to prioritize one of these and and not the other and it's of these and and not the other and it's of these and and not the other and it's really hard to to deprioritize pre really hard to to deprioritize pre really hard to to deprioritize pre preaching if that's been a big part of preaching if that's been a big part of preaching if that's been a big part of the identity of your church Community the identity of your church Community the identity of your church Community um it takes a lot of courage to also um it takes a lot of courage to also um it takes a lot of courage to also dramatically reshape your church service dramatically reshape your church service dramatically reshape your church service and if you do it too quickly that just and if you do it too quickly that just and if you do it too quickly that just feels like Whiplash to people who have feels like Whiplash to people who have feels like Whiplash to people who have come to expect something from your come to expect something from your come to expect something from your church Community um so it's really not church Community um so it's really not church Community um so it's really not easy to pull this off I'm just like easy to pull this off I'm just like easy to pull this off I'm just like starting to like add up all of these hot starting to like add up all of these hot starting to like add up all of these hot takes together and again these were the takes together and again these were the takes together and again these were the most popular so this came in again and most popular so this came in again and most popular so this came in again and again hundreds of again hundreds of again hundreds of responses so one one of the other ones responses so one one of the other ones responses so one one of the other ones got that I lumped in here was the future got that I lumped in here was the future got that I lumped in here was the future will shift to focus Less on the lead will shift to focus Less on the lead will shift to focus Less on the lead Pastor okay so we're not going to have Pastor okay so we're not going to have Pastor okay so we're not going to have much as much of a focus on that one much as much of a focus on that one much as much of a focus on that one charismatic personality okay and and charismatic personality okay and and charismatic personality okay and and we're not going to have fancy production we're not going to have fancy production we're not going to have fancy production so no scale and spectacle okay and so no scale and spectacle okay and so no scale and spectacle okay and pastors are probably not going to be pastors are probably not going to be pastors are probably not going to be able to get paid because of the first able to get paid because of the first able to get paid because of the first two things so it's two things so it's two things so it's allocational allocational allocational and uh no one attends church either and uh no one attends church either and uh no one attends church either that's that's that's young and like I just started adding young and like I just started adding young and like I just started adding these up together and maybe this is these up together and maybe this is these up together and maybe this is because you know I did not pursue being

because you know I did not pursue being because you know I did not pursue being a pastor because I did not have the a pastor because I did not have the a pastor because I did not have the relational bandwidth for it talk about relational bandwidth for it talk about relational bandwidth for it talk about like pastors needs to be both CEOs and like pastors needs to be both CEOs and like pastors needs to be both CEOs and like Shepherds the reason I immediately like Shepherds the reason I immediately like Shepherds the reason I immediately felt fulfilled in what I do is because felt fulfilled in what I do is because felt fulfilled in what I do is because as much as I like to write I like to run as much as I like to write I like to run as much as I like to write I like to run a business as much as I like to a business as much as I like to a business as much as I like to financially forecast I like to like get financially forecast I like to like get financially forecast I like to like get in my creative lab and Tinker I couldn't in my creative lab and Tinker I couldn't in my creative lab and Tinker I couldn't imagine doing only one or the other but imagine doing only one or the other but imagine doing only one or the other but exactly what this business requires is exactly what this business requires is exactly what this business requires is exactly how I am wired to serve it so exactly how I am wired to serve it so exactly how I am wired to serve it so it's the business part of me that's it's the business part of me that's it's the business part of me that's coming up to being like guys I don't coming up to being like guys I don't coming up to being like guys I don't think all of these things are adding up think all of these things are adding up think all of these things are adding up and and if we just like reduce the whole and and if we just like reduce the whole and and if we just like reduce the whole thing to Rubble just declare bankruptcy thing to Rubble just declare bankruptcy thing to Rubble just declare bankruptcy on the whole thing and then start on the whole thing and then start on the whole thing and then start building up from there sure we can building up from there sure we can building up from there sure we can reshape it but I just if we're talking reshape it but I just if we're talking reshape it but I just if we're talking the future like that's a 30 40 year the future like that's a 30 40 year the future like that's a 30 40 year future like that's not a 10e thing we're future like that's not a 10e thing we're future like that's not a 10e thing we're not just going to get to this place in not just going to get to this place in not just going to get to this place in 10 years and a lot of these things they 10 years and a lot of these things they 10 years and a lot of these things they require basically declaring bankruptcy require basically declaring bankruptcy require basically declaring bankruptcy on everything that we've done also maybe on everything that we've done also maybe on everything that we've done also maybe Financial bankruptcy and so that's where Financial bankruptcy and so that's where Financial bankruptcy and so that's where I'm just like I don't know I don't think I'm just like I don't know I don't think I'm just like I don't know I don't think Human Nature has the type of vision Human Nature has the type of vision Human Nature has the type of vision discipline to basically say hey if we discipline to basically say hey if we discipline to basically say hey if we keep going down this road it'll probably keep going down this road it'll probably keep going down this road it'll probably end poorly so let's preemptively pull end poorly so let's preemptively pull end poorly so let's preemptively pull the the the plug and create a disastrous event so plug and create a disastrous event so plug and create a disastrous event so that we can reshape things from scratch that we can reshape things from scratch that we can reshape things from scratch on our terms rather than wait until the on our terms rather than wait until the on our terms rather than wait until the disastrous event happens by a million disastrous event happens by a million disastrous event happens by a million cuts and then just like go cuz here's cuts and then just like go cuz here's cuts and then just like go cuz here's what's going to happen then we end up what's going to happen then we end up what's going to happen then we end up going down the street to the big church

going down the street to the big church going down the street to the big church the one that like what I see in the the one that like what I see in the the one that like what I see in the future the cynical part of me is like future the cynical part of me is like future the cynical part of me is like the gap between the biggest and the the gap between the biggest and the the gap between the biggest and the smaller churches it just continues to smaller churches it just continues to smaller churches it just continues to grow the 70% of smaller churches becomes grow the 70% of smaller churches becomes grow the 70% of smaller churches becomes 50% and the 70% of people attending 50% and the 70% of people attending 50% and the 70% of people attending bigger church becomes like 90% And we bigger church becomes like 90% And we bigger church becomes like 90% And we keep trying to do these models but keep trying to do these models but keep trying to do these models but they're not financially viable and young they're not financially viable and young they're not financially viable and young people don't care about them and nobody people don't care about them and nobody people don't care about them and nobody goes goes goes and then everyone ends up going to the and then everyone ends up going to the and then everyone ends up going to the big church big church big church M I'm not presenting any alternatives so M I'm not presenting any alternatives so M I'm not presenting any alternatives so I'm not trying to say that like I'm I'm not trying to say that like I'm I'm not trying to say that like I'm right I just worry when we add these all right I just worry when we add these all right I just worry when we add these all up that there's just one too many things up that there's just one too many things up that there's just one too many things in The Ledger on the side of red yeah in The Ledger on the side of red yeah in The Ledger on the side of red yeah like when you phrase it that way when like when you phrase it that way when like when you phrase it that way when you put them all together uh it does you put them all together uh it does you put them all together uh it does sound like rather ideological right and sound like rather ideological right and sound like rather ideological right and and the question it begs the question and the question it begs the question and the question it begs the question like okay great idea but how and that's like okay great idea but how and that's like okay great idea but how and that's exactly where you would be if you're exactly where you would be if you're exactly where you would be if you're overworked under paid exhausted and the overworked under paid exhausted and the overworked under paid exhausted and the expectations just keep mounting and expectations just keep mounting and expectations just keep mounting and every week I come up with an episode every week I come up with an episode every week I come up with an episode being like here's what else you should being like here's what else you should being like here's what else you should do on social pray please stop yeah I do on social pray please stop yeah I do on social pray please stop yeah I also don't know how um and you know what also don't know how um and you know what also don't know how um and you know what I'm about to say is is is would be a I'm about to say is is is would be a I'm about to say is is is would be a great way to to like to end this episode great way to to like to end this episode great way to to like to end this episode we're not going to end it we got two we're not going to end it we got two we're not going to end it we got two more to talk about but to to what you more to talk about but to to what you more to talk about but to to what you said at the very beginning which is like said at the very beginning which is like said at the very beginning which is like I don't know how other than just being I don't know how other than just being I don't know how other than just being faithful to the people that you serve in faithful to the people that you serve in faithful to the people that you serve in your community yeah so whether they're your community yeah so whether they're your community yeah so whether they're 10 people that come to your church 100 10 people that come to your church 100 10 people that come to your church 100 people a thousand people I don't know people a thousand people I don't know people a thousand people I don't know there's people who are listening to the there's people who are listening to the there's people who are listening to the show who have 10 people that come to show who have 10 people that come to show who have 10 people that come to their church people have 100 people have

their church people have 100 people have their church people have 100 people have a thousand people have 10,000 so I don't a thousand people have 10,000 so I don't a thousand people have 10,000 so I don't care who who you are how many people care who who you are how many people care who who you are how many people come to your church I don't know how come to your church I don't know how come to your church I don't know how other than being faithful every day you other than being faithful every day you other than being faithful every day you wake up to the call on your life whether wake up to the call on your life whether wake up to the call on your life whether it's Pastor or social media director or it's Pastor or social media director or it's Pastor or social media director or whatever volunteer lay person I don't whatever volunteer lay person I don't whatever volunteer lay person I don't care wake up be faithful to the journey care wake up be faithful to the journey care wake up be faithful to the journey with Jesus in your location where you go with Jesus in your location where you go with Jesus in your location where you go to church to to the community to whom to church to to the community to whom to church to to the community to whom you belong you belong you belong that's you can you can you that's you can you can you that's you can you can you can if you if your community accepts can if you if your community accepts can if you if your community accepts that call to be faithful to where Jesus that call to be faithful to where Jesus that call to be faithful to where Jesus is leading your community you can pull is leading your community you can pull is leading your community you can pull any of these off where you are I don't any of these off where you are I don't any of these off where you are I don't know how to do it on a global scale on a know how to do it on a global scale on a know how to do it on a global scale on a on a national scale I don't know um I on a national scale I don't know um I on a national scale I don't know um I don't know the future of the church but don't know the future of the church but don't know the future of the church but uh day after day Sunday after Sunday uh day after day Sunday after Sunday uh day after day Sunday after Sunday week after week year after year um week after week year after year um week after week year after year um staying faithful to the the call of staying faithful to the the call of staying faithful to the the call of Jesus wherever he's calling you whoever Jesus wherever he's calling you whoever Jesus wherever he's calling you whoever all these people who wrote wrote all these people who wrote wrote all these people who wrote wrote in um that's that's my best estimation in um that's that's my best estimation in um that's that's my best estimation on on how and that's that's local that's on on how and that's that's local that's on on how and that's that's local that's specific that's uh there's cultural specific that's uh there's cultural specific that's uh there's cultural context there um so hopefully that's context there um so hopefully that's context there um so hopefully that's encouraging um because that's all we're encouraging um because that's all we're encouraging um because that's all we're trying to do and uh we're still here we trying to do and uh we're still here we trying to do and uh we're still here we still meet every Sunday to worship God still meet every Sunday to worship God still meet every Sunday to worship God and there are churches all over our and there are churches all over our and there are churches all over our local area who are doing the same thing local area who are doing the same thing local area who are doing the same thing and their complexion of their Community and their complexion of their Community and their complexion of their Community looks a little bit different and that's looks a little bit different and that's looks a little bit different and that's great they're Faithfully meeting to great they're Faithfully meeting to great they're Faithfully meeting to worship God worship God worship God and we all do it in in the name of Jesus and we all do it in in the name of Jesus and we all do it in in the name of Jesus and not the name of anything else not and not the name of anything else not and not the name of anything else not the name of celebrity or political power the name of celebrity or political power the name of celebrity or political power or anything I think I think we'll be

or anything I think I think we'll be or anything I think I think we'll be okay one of my favorite responses we got okay one of my favorite responses we got okay one of my favorite responses we got was just it'll be fine there you was just it'll be fine there you was just it'll be fine there you go two more here church denominations go two more here church denominations go two more here church denominations are on the decline and we may see the are on the decline and we may see the are on the decline and we may see the end of them in our lifetime so the end of them in our lifetime so the end of them in our lifetime so the trajectory on this I think is pretty trajectory on this I think is pretty trajectory on this I think is pretty clear the rise of non- denominational clear the rise of non- denominational clear the rise of non- denominational churches has been huge In Our Lifetime churches has been huge In Our Lifetime churches has been huge In Our Lifetime we're seeing denominations splinter we're seeing denominations splinter we're seeing denominations splinter because there's a hot button issue that because there's a hot button issue that because there's a hot button issue that they can't unanimously agree on we're they can't unanimously agree on we're they can't unanimously agree on we're seeing corruption in denominations seeing corruption in denominations seeing corruption in denominations exposed leaving people disillusioned and exposed leaving people disillusioned and exposed leaving people disillusioned and the power of said denominations not the power of said denominations not the power of said denominations not really transcending past this generation really transcending past this generation really transcending past this generation because of the corruption and we're because of the corruption and we're because of the corruption and we're seeing the rise of fellowships or seeing the rise of fellowships or seeing the rise of fellowships or networks where you're a part of a group networks where you're a part of a group networks where you're a part of a group of churches but it's informal you're not of churches but it's informal you're not of churches but it's informal you're not required to like make the same Creed required to like make the same Creed required to like make the same Creed declarations hey if you want to be part declarations hey if you want to be part declarations hey if you want to be part of this you have to believe this this of this you have to believe this this of this you have to believe this this and this you have to give this amount of and this you have to give this amount of and this you have to give this amount of money to the denomination and so the money to the denomination and so the money to the denomination and so the trajectory is definitely clear I guess trajectory is definitely clear I guess trajectory is definitely clear I guess my question is do we continue on that my question is do we continue on that my question is do we continue on that trajectory the way that we have for the trajectory the way that we have for the trajectory the way that we have for the last 20 years or as this person is last 20 years or as this person is last 20 years or as this person is suggesting or is there coming some type suggesting or is there coming some type suggesting or is there coming some type of like swing back the other way of the of like swing back the other way of the of like swing back the other way of the pendulum I feel the swing of the pendulum I feel the swing of the pendulum I feel the swing of the pendulum in my own heart in my own pendulum in my own heart in my own pendulum in my own heart in my own practice so you strongly disagree with practice so you strongly disagree with practice so you strongly disagree with this person I I don't know so I am this person I I don't know so I am this person I I don't know so I am becoming friends we live right next door becoming friends we live right next door becoming friends we live right next door to a Catholic Church becoming friends to a Catholic Church becoming friends to a Catholic Church becoming friends with the priest next door oh boy and um with the priest next door oh boy and um with the priest next door oh boy and um so just like learning a lot about uh not

so just like learning a lot about uh not so just like learning a lot about uh not the Catholic faith but like the Catholic the Catholic faith but like the Catholic the Catholic faith but like the Catholic church and how it operates and um uh our church and how it operates and um uh our church and how it operates and um uh our church is non- denominational our church church is non- denominational our church church is non- denominational our church was born out of a group of people who was born out of a group of people who was born out of a group of people who belong to traditional churches um United belong to traditional churches um United belong to traditional churches um United Anglican Catholic um who wanted to Anglican Catholic um who wanted to Anglican Catholic um who wanted to explore faith on their own they started explore faith on their own they started explore faith on their own they started a Bible study poof it's a church and we a Bible study poof it's a church and we a Bible study poof it's a church and we belong to Network in Canada a belong to Network in Canada a belong to Network in Canada a non-denominational Network and over the non-denominational Network and over the non-denominational Network and over the years of pastoring in that Network I've years of pastoring in that Network I've years of pastoring in that Network I've made I've made some great friends in made I've made some great friends in made I've made some great friends in that Network I feel very supported by that Network I feel very supported by that Network I feel very supported by that Network um but sometimes I long for that Network um but sometimes I long for that Network um but sometimes I long for a denomination um in the sense of a denomination um in the sense of a denomination um in the sense of longing for um uh a United um agreement longing for um uh a United um agreement longing for um uh a United um agreement on what we profess to believe um longing on what we profess to believe um longing on what we profess to believe um longing for a little bit more accountability uh for a little bit more accountability uh for a little bit more accountability uh not to say that any denomination is is not to say that any denomination is is not to say that any denomination is is perfect at this or even good at this uh perfect at this or even good at this uh perfect at this or even good at this uh and this is part of the problem and this is part of the problem and this is part of the problem denominations have proven to not be very denominations have proven to not be very denominations have proven to not be very good at this um which is why a lot of us good at this um which is why a lot of us good at this um which is why a lot of us Pastor non-denominational churches uh Pastor non-denominational churches uh Pastor non-denominational churches uh but there is kind of that but there is kind of that but there is kind of that like this this longing for a little bit like this this longing for a little bit like this this longing for a little bit more order uh in my own heart so I don't more order uh in my own heart so I don't more order uh in my own heart so I don't know I I I do I I think I think yes I know I I I do I I think I think yes I know I I I do I I think I think yes I think both and I think we will continue think both and I think we will continue think both and I think we will continue to see we don't have any stats here on to see we don't have any stats here on to see we don't have any stats here on on non-denominational churches um I do on non-denominational churches um I do on non-denominational churches um I do think we will continue to see um more uh think we will continue to see um more uh think we will continue to see um more uh splintering from denominations splintering from denominations splintering from denominations Mainline denominations popular Mainline denominations popular Mainline denominations popular denominations resulting in denominations resulting in denominations resulting in non-denominational churches or non-denominational churches or non-denominational churches or independent churches um but I I do also

independent churches um but I I do also independent churches um but I I do also anticipate kind of a a pendulum swinging anticipate kind of a a pendulum swinging anticipate kind of a a pendulum swinging back maybe because the denominations back maybe because the denominations back maybe because the denominations that are losing folks realize okay we that are losing folks realize okay we that are losing folks realize okay we need to evolve here we need to change need to evolve here we need to change need to evolve here we need to change and maybe if they do embody some of that and maybe if they do embody some of that and maybe if they do embody some of that evolutionary change maybe some folks evolutionary change maybe some folks evolutionary change maybe some folks swing back to the the shelter of a swing back to the the shelter of a swing back to the the shelter of a denomination I don't know um so globally denomination I don't know um so globally denomination I don't know um so globally I'm not sure but I do I feel that I'm not sure but I do I feel that I'm not sure but I do I feel that personally well look forward to the U personally well look forward to the U personally well look forward to the U Charismatic Church of Canada Rising Charismatic Church of Canada Rising Charismatic Church of Canada Rising final one here I think in 2024 n beond final one here I think in 2024 n beond final one here I think in 2024 n beond churches will either grow or close their churches will either grow or close their churches will either grow or close their doors so this person is kind of going doors so this person is kind of going doors so this person is kind of going against the grain in respect to what against the grain in respect to what against the grain in respect to what other folks were suggesting and was other folks were suggesting and was other folks were suggesting and was hitting on kind of what I see as like hitting on kind of what I see as like hitting on kind of what I see as like the the shrinking of the church middle the the shrinking of the church middle the the shrinking of the church middle class in a lot of ways where hey you're class in a lot of ways where hey you're class in a lot of ways where hey you're either going to be one of these big either going to be one of these big either going to be one of these big churches that has the resources churches that has the resources churches that has the resources and the size to sustain this like and the size to sustain this like and the size to sustain this like shrinking Church attendance or you're shrinking Church attendance or you're shrinking Church attendance or you're going to be small and you won't be able going to be small and you won't be able going to be small and you won't be able to sustain that type of hit and you're to sustain that type of hit and you're to sustain that type of hit and you're going to close or you might go to the going to close or you might go to the going to close or you might go to the really small side where like let's really small side where like let's really small side where like let's imagine it's like you where you don't imagine it's like you where you don't imagine it's like you where you don't have any churches uh pastors on staff have any churches uh pastors on staff have any churches uh pastors on staff and either you own your building or more and either you own your building or more and either you own your building or more likely you meet in a home or you meet in likely you meet in a home or you meet in likely you meet in a home or you meet in a place that has almost zero overhead a place that has almost zero overhead a place that has almost zero overhead cost and so you're able to withstand any cost and so you're able to withstand any cost and so you're able to withstand any sort of changes because like by sort of changes because like by sort of changes because like by definition you're so small that you definition you're so small that you definition you're so small that you almost can't be hit by those things and almost can't be hit by those things and almost can't be hit by those things and aren't affected by them yeah I mean aren't affected by them yeah I mean aren't affected by them yeah I mean again we don't have statistics to back again we don't have statistics to back again we don't have statistics to back this up but anecdotally here in the

this up but anecdotally here in the this up but anecdotally here in the place where we live I I am seeing that place where we live I I am seeing that place where we live I I am seeing that very thing I'm seeing churches um close very thing I'm seeing churches um close very thing I'm seeing churches um close um both Mainline and non- denominational um both Mainline and non- denominational um both Mainline and non- denominational churches small middle siiz churches churches small middle siiz churches churches small middle siiz churches you'll see the the building go vacant you'll see the the building go vacant you'll see the the building go vacant and then before you know it you'll drive and then before you know it you'll drive and then before you know it you'll drive by and oh the building's not there by and oh the building's not there by and oh the building's not there anymore this is happening I there was anymore this is happening I there was anymore this is happening I there was one buil church building I had my eye on one buil church building I had my eye on one buil church building I had my eye on that closed and then drove by it the that closed and then drove by it the that closed and then drove by it the other day and it was gone it's like oh I other day and it was gone it's like oh I other day and it was gone it's like oh I wanted that building uh I missed my wanted that building uh I missed my wanted that building uh I missed my chance on it um and so and so we're chance on it um and so and so we're chance on it um and so and so we're seeing I'm seeing that with my actual seeing I'm seeing that with my actual seeing I'm seeing that with my actual eyeballs and and again interpersonal eyeballs and and again interpersonal eyeballs and and again interpersonal friendships folks who belong to churches friendships folks who belong to churches friendships folks who belong to churches who are similar size to ours who didn't who are similar size to ours who didn't who are similar size to ours who didn't quite make it through covid or who are quite make it through covid or who are quite make it through covid or who are slowly dwindling after covid and are not slowly dwindling after covid and are not slowly dwindling after covid and are not seeing much of a future for for um seeing much of a future for for um seeing much of a future for for um Vitality there or longevity and so not Vitality there or longevity and so not Vitality there or longevity and so not seeing a lot of those churches um moving seeing a lot of those churches um moving seeing a lot of those churches um moving into new buildings or or popping up here into new buildings or or popping up here into new buildings or or popping up here popping up there but there are a few popping up there but there are a few popping up there but there are a few very large churches in our area that very large churches in our area that very large churches in our area that have popped up recently and that are have popped up recently and that are have popped up recently and that are growing at a rapid Pace um and so just growing at a rapid Pace um and so just growing at a rapid Pace um and so just anecdotally I'm seeing that very thing anecdotally I'm seeing that very thing anecdotally I'm seeing that very thing here in the nager region where we live here in the nager region where we live here in the nager region where we live um i' i' I I'd be really interested to um i' i' I I'd be really interested to um i' i' I I'd be really interested to to read and again that that study that to read and again that that study that to read and again that that study that we quote often um the faith community we quote often um the faith community we quote often um the faith community one you said that was a 2020 study I'd one you said that was a 2020 study I'd one you said that was a 2020 study I'd be so curious to know like what kind of be so curious to know like what kind of be so curious to know like what kind of data there is coming out of that Global data there is coming out of that Global data there is coming out of that Global pandemic and like the state of church pandemic and like the state of church pandemic and like the state of church sizes now and and just the state of sizes now and and just the state of sizes now and and just the state of churches now um but anecdotally that's churches now um but anecdotally that's churches now um but anecdotally that's that's definitely what I'm seeing I'm that's definitely what I'm seeing I'm that's definitely what I'm seeing I'm just trying to investigate some of my just trying to investigate some of my just trying to investigate some of my own bias on this because I grew up in a

own bias on this because I grew up in a own bias on this because I grew up in a really small Baptist Church so like 20 really small Baptist Church so like 20 really small Baptist Church so like 20 people no sound system Pastor didn't people no sound system Pastor didn't people no sound system Pastor didn't preach with a mic acoustic guitar voices preach with a mic acoustic guitar voices preach with a mic acoustic guitar voices singing but we did have an overhead singing but we did have an overhead singing but we did have an overhead projector oh cool and sometimes we had projector oh cool and sometimes we had projector oh cool and sometimes we had two Acoustics nice and I two Acoustics nice and I two Acoustics nice and I remember not enjoying church as a young remember not enjoying church as a young remember not enjoying church as a young child and as a as a kid not enjoying any child and as a as a kid not enjoying any child and as a as a kid not enjoying any part of it even though there were some part of it even though there were some part of it even though there were some kids my age MH and then I remember going kids my age MH and then I remember going kids my age MH and then I remember going to the Pentecostal Church in town and to the Pentecostal Church in town and to the Pentecostal Church in town and they had what I would call fancy they had what I would call fancy they had what I would call fancy production right they had drums they had production right they had drums they had production right they had drums they had a sound system they would turn the a sound system they would turn the a sound system they would turn the lights down for youth group we'd have lights down for youth group we'd have lights down for youth group we'd have like three colored lights and I was like like three colored lights and I was like like three colored lights and I was like this is different and there were young this is different and there were young this is different and there were young people there too but before I made people there too but before I made people there too but before I made connection with those young people connection with those young people connection with those young people because there were people my age at the because there were people my age at the because there were people my age at the Baptist Baptist Baptist Church it was like church felt cool for Church it was like church felt cool for Church it was like church felt cool for a second and as a young person that a second and as a young person that a second and as a young person that mattered it doesn't matter now but it mattered it doesn't matter now but it mattered it doesn't matter now but it mattered then and the fact that it mattered then and the fact that it mattered then and the fact that it mattered then shape the trajectory of mattered then shape the trajectory of mattered then shape the trajectory of what has become now exactly yeah and so what has become now exactly yeah and so what has become now exactly yeah and so that's like the one thing like I'm that's like the one thing like I'm that's like the one thing like I'm really curious about and I am very open really curious about and I am very open really curious about and I am very open to being I don't feel like I have a good to being I don't feel like I have a good to being I don't feel like I have a good good sense on this or a good feel good sense on this or a good feel good sense on this or a good feel because I feel like it's my own bias because I feel like it's my own bias because I feel like it's my own bias that might be clouding what's happening that might be clouding what's happening that might be clouding what's happening more broadly cuz you can only know your more broadly cuz you can only know your more broadly cuz you can only know your own own own experience but if we went towards like experience but if we went towards like experience but if we went towards like all of these small churches my fear all of these small churches my fear all of these small churches my fear would be like I am going to the small

would be like I am going to the small would be like I am going to the small church that is practicing everything church that is practicing everything church that is practicing everything faithfully and then one day I get faithfully and then one day I get faithfully and then one day I get invited by a friend in school to go to invited by a friend in school to go to invited by a friend in school to go to the big church and I'm like wow and then the big church and I'm like wow and then the big church and I'm like wow and then I go there as a kid and then maybe I I go there as a kid and then maybe I I go there as a kid and then maybe I become a 30-year-old and then I go back become a 30-year-old and then I go back become a 30-year-old and then I go back to the small church and maybe that's to the small church and maybe that's to the small church and maybe that's like the cycle like we need the big like the cycle like we need the big like the cycle like we need the big church and we need the small Church the church and we need the small Church the church and we need the small Church the big church which is like attractional big church which is like attractional big church which is like attractional Christian fast food which is like hey Christian fast food which is like hey Christian fast food which is like hey let's make it accessible for everyone let's make it accessible for everyone let's make it accessible for everyone and then when you get like disillusioned and then when you get like disillusioned and then when you get like disillusioned with maybe its lack of depth or with maybe its lack of depth or with maybe its lack of depth or shallowness then you go to the small shallowness then you go to the small shallowness then you go to the small church that's like look we have nothing church that's like look we have nothing church that's like look we have nothing attractional what we have is attractional what we have is attractional what we have is faithfulness and maybe we need both is faithfulness and maybe we need both is faithfulness and maybe we need both is that okay that okay that okay yeah maybe I'm naive no I I I don't yeah maybe I'm naive no I I I don't yeah maybe I'm naive no I I I don't think we're naive I think naive surely think we're naive I think naive surely think we're naive I think naive surely we're naive about about something about we're naive about about something about we're naive about about something about some part of this some part of this some part of this um I think our um I think our um I think our our the way that we we talk about this our the way that we we talk about this our the way that we we talk about this on the show we're navigating the biggest on the show we're navigating the biggest on the show we're navigating the biggest communication shift in the last 500 communication shift in the last 500 communication shift in the last 500 years and that impacts even how we talk years and that impacts even how we talk years and that impacts even how we talk about church because 500 years ago about church because 500 years ago about church because 500 years ago before or however many years ago before before or however many years ago before before or however many years ago before we were so interconnected via we were so interconnected via we were so interconnected via communication lines of communication you communication lines of communication you communication lines of communication you were rooted in a place yes and that's were rooted in a place yes and that's were rooted in a place yes and that's where you belonged and that you you went where you belonged and that you you went where you belonged and that you you went to the church that was near your place to the church that was near your place to the church that was near your place cuz that's where you did all your stuff cuz that's where you did all your stuff cuz that's where you did all your stuff you know you you didn't travel beyond you know you you didn't travel beyond you know you you didn't travel beyond the boundary of your Township or the boundary of your Township or the boundary of your Township or whatever like there's a church here we whatever like there's a church here we whatever like there's a church here we go here and we're living in this go here and we're living in this go here and we're living in this metamodern world now where that is just metamodern world now where that is just metamodern world now where that is just not that's just not relevant to to us not that's just not relevant to to us not that's just not relevant to to us anymore who who live where you and I

anymore who who live where you and I anymore who who live where you and I live that is that that is relevant to to live that is that that is relevant to to live that is that that is relevant to to people even who who live in our country people even who who live in our country people even who who live in our country still there are there are communities in still there are there are communities in still there are there are communities in our country where that is true you live our country where that is true you live our country where that is true you live you you you belong where you live that's you you you belong where you live that's you you you belong where you live that's true but for you and I for most of the true but for you and I for most of the true but for you and I for most of the people listening to the show if you're people listening to the show if you're people listening to the show if you're listening to a podcast if you're listening to a podcast if you're listening to a podcast if you're watching this on YouTube that probably watching this on YouTube that probably watching this on YouTube that probably doesn't that that's probably not doesn't that that's probably not doesn't that that's probably not relevant to you and so the the boundary relevant to you and so the the boundary relevant to you and so the the boundary of our experience has just exploded of our experience has just exploded of our experience has just exploded thanks to the way that communication has thanks to the way that communication has thanks to the way that communication has involved we have the internet we know involved we have the internet we know involved we have the internet we know that there's another church on the other that there's another church on the other that there's another church on the other side of town and we've got an electric side of town and we've got an electric side of town and we've got an electric car to drive from this side of town to car to drive from this side of town to car to drive from this side of town to that side of town to get there that just that side of town to get there that just that side of town to get there that just wasn't true for most of human history so wasn't true for most of human history so wasn't true for most of human history so it's a new it's a new question it's a it's a new it's a new question it's a it's a new it's a new question it's a it's a wide open world now where for it's a wide open world now where for it's a wide open world now where for most of human history it has not been um most of human history it has not been um most of human history it has not been um and that has I think we're learning that and that has I think we're learning that and that has I think we're learning that really impacts how we not just talk really impacts how we not just talk really impacts how we not just talk about church but how we practice Faith about church but how we practice Faith about church but how we practice Faith because in for most of human history you because in for most of human history you because in for most of human history you practice Faith with the people you you practice Faith with the people you you practice Faith with the people you you lived with that in some cases is not lived with that in some cases is not lived with that in some cases is not true anymore you know there's there's a true anymore you know there's there's a true anymore you know there's there's a really large Church in town and a lot of really large Church in town and a lot of really large Church in town and a lot of people travel from outside of their people travel from outside of their people travel from outside of their Community to come to that church that's Community to come to that church that's Community to come to that church that's just the nature of of big church not me just the nature of of big church not me just the nature of of big church not me that's true it is right down the street that's true it is right down the street that's true it is right down the street us um which is nice because I used to us um which is nice because I used to us um which is nice because I used to travel the chur we're building a new travel the chur we're building a new travel the chur we're building a new building I was like oh where's it hey building I was like oh where's it hey building I was like oh where's it hey coming to you guys did you know I value coming to you guys did you know I value coming to you guys did you know I value attending church in your local attending church in your local attending church in your local yes you wouldn't you can't relate yes you wouldn't you can't relate yes you wouldn't you can't relate sorry um so yeah that that's that's sorry um so yeah that that's that's sorry um so yeah that that's that's something um that's a topic of something um that's a topic of something um that's a topic of conversation I I talk a lot about a lot conversation I I talk a lot about a lot conversation I I talk a lot about a lot about with friends too is like you know about with friends too is like you know about with friends too is like you know a lot of these questions we're wrestling a lot of these questions we're wrestling a lot of these questions we're wrestling with were are new questions um because

with were are new questions um because with were are new questions um because of how communication has opened up our of how communication has opened up our of how communication has opened up our experience of the world and so but we're experience of the world and so but we're experience of the world and so but we're not going back how many times have we not going back how many times have we not going back how many times have we said that on this show we're not going said that on this show we're not going said that on this show we're not going back so where how are we going forward back so where how are we going forward back so where how are we going forward is the question how are going forward is the question how are going forward is the question how are going forward because we are we are going forward how because we are we are going forward how because we are we are going forward how are we how are we going there I mean are we how are we going there I mean are we how are we going there I mean we're we're employing you and I first we're we're employing you and I first we're we're employing you and I first and foremost but everyone else listening and foremost but everyone else listening and foremost but everyone else listening like to go forward faithfully and that's like to go forward faithfully and that's like to go forward faithfully and that's going to look different for everyone in going to look different for everyone in going to look different for everyone in their in their local context uh for you their in their local context uh for you their in their local context uh for you and I we both go to local churches so and I we both go to local churches so and I we both go to local churches so that's a good we do that's a good step that's a good we do that's a good step that's a good we do that's a good step in the right direction I mean that's all in the right direction I mean that's all in the right direction I mean that's all that that's that's like I wish I just that that's that's like I wish I just that that's that's like I wish I just wish we could have more foresight I wish wish we could have more foresight I wish wish we could have more foresight I wish we could be more prophetic you know um we could be more prophetic you know um we could be more prophetic you know um in a in a real sense um um but we're in a in a real sense um um but we're in a in a real sense um um but we're just trying to be faithful one day at a just trying to be faithful one day at a just trying to be faithful one day at a time wrestling with all of these these time wrestling with all of these these time wrestling with all of these these questions these things that we think may questions these things that we think may questions these things that we think may happen or may not happen and of course happen or may not happen and of course happen or may not happen and of course we'll look back in 10 years when we're we'll look back in 10 years when we're we'll look back in 10 years when we're 40 doing this podcast 40 doing this podcast 40 doing this podcast 40 like wow we were really wrong about 40 like wow we were really wrong about 40 like wow we were really wrong about that right but what you said at the very that right but what you said at the very that right but what you said at the very beginning is probably the most important beginning is probably the most important beginning is probably the most important which is sure it's fun to talk about which is sure it's fun to talk about which is sure it's fun to talk about what's going to change how church is what's going to change how church is what's going to change how church is going to evolve but what's going to stay going to evolve but what's going to stay going to evolve but what's going to stay the same and maybe that'll be another the same and maybe that'll be another the same and maybe that'll be another another show for another day faithful another show for another day faithful another show for another day faithful one day at a time I hope you enjoyed one day at a time I hope you enjoyed one day at a time I hope you enjoyed listening as we explored these topics a listening as we explored these topics a listening as we explored these topics a lot less certainty in this episode than lot less certainty in this episode than lot less certainty in this episode than normal ones where we're talking about normal ones where we're talking about normal ones where we're talking about hey here's how this is working and hey here's how this is working and hey here's how this is working and here's what we should do about it this here's what we should do about it this here's what we should do about it this is more like what do you think is going is more like what do you think is going is more like what do you think is going to happen and wow as I explored these to happen and wow as I explored these to happen and wow as I explored these how little I feel like I have a sense on how little I feel like I have a sense on how little I feel like I have a sense on what it might be so faithful every day

what it might be so faithful every day what it might be so faithful every day thanks as always for your time attention thanks as always for your time attention thanks as always for your time attention and your trust we'll talk to you next and your trust we'll talk to you next and your trust we'll talk to you next week remember how to do this no me week remember how to do this no me week remember how to do this no me [Music] [Music] [Music] neither [Laughter] [Laughter] [Music] [Music] [Music] okay okay