Nobody Trusts Your Pastor Anymore (The Numbers Are Ugly)

In 1985, Gallup asked Americans how they In 1985, Gallup asked Americans how they would rate pastors on honesty and ethics would rate pastors on honesty and ethics would rate pastors on honesty and ethics and 67% of respondents said high or very and 67% of respondents said high or very and 67% of respondents said high or very high, making pastors one of the most high, making pastors one of the most high, making pastors one of the most trusted positions in America. trusted positions in America. trusted positions in America. >> And Gallup just asked that same question >> And Gallup just asked that same question >> And Gallup just asked that same question again. again. again. >> The answer? >> The answer? >> The answer? >> 27%. >> 27%. >> 27%. >> A 40-point collapse in just about four >> A 40-point collapse in just about four >> A 40-point collapse in just about four decades and it gets worse because for decades and it gets worse because for decades and it gets worse because for Americans under the age of 35, that Americans under the age of 35, that Americans under the age of 35, that number is even lower at 17%. number is even lower at 17%. number is even lower at 17%. >> It's so bad that trust in pastors has >> It's so bad that trust in pastors has >> It's so bad that trust in pastors has fallen more than any other profession fallen more than any other profession fallen more than any other profession that Gallup measures. More than lawyers, that Gallup measures. More than lawyers, that Gallup measures. More than lawyers, more than politicians, more than car more than politicians, more than car more than politicians, more than car salesmen. salesmen. salesmen. >> Obviously, the question is not whether >> Obviously, the question is not whether >> Obviously, the question is not whether this affects your church. It does. The this affects your church. It does. The this affects your church. It does. The question is what do we do about it? question is what do we do about it? question is what do we do about it? Well, hey there and welcome to the Pro Well, hey there and welcome to the Pro Well, hey there and welcome to the Pro Church Tools Show. We're here to help Church Tools Show. We're here to help Church Tools Show. We're here to help you and your church navigate the biggest you and your church navigate the biggest you and your church navigate the biggest communication shift in 500 years. I'm communication shift in 500 years. I'm communication shift in 500 years. I'm Brady Shearer, your host. I'm joined as Brady Shearer, your host. I'm joined as Brady Shearer, your host. I'm joined as always by my co-host who once told me he always by my co-host who once told me he always by my co-host who once told me he thinks that a Dairy Queen dipped cone thinks that a Dairy Queen dipped cone thinks that a Dairy Queen dipped cone weighs 1 and 1/2 lb. It's Alexander weighs 1 and 1/2 lb. It's Alexander weighs 1 and 1/2 lb. It's Alexander Mills. Mills. Mills. >> Hello, hello. >> Hello, hello. >> Hello, hello. >> So, >> So, >> So, >> how much do you think it weighs?

>> how much do you think it weighs? >> how much do you think it weighs? >> Half a pound. >> Half a pound. >> Half a pound. >> We're going to find out. A quarter >> We're going to find out. A quarter >> We're going to find out. A quarter pound. pound. pound. >> Next Wednesday, we're going to find out. >> Next Wednesday, we're going to find out. >> Next Wednesday, we're going to find out. >> grams. It's like 250 g. >> grams. It's like 250 g. >> grams. It's like 250 g. >> Okay. >> Okay. >> Okay. >> Well, what size? Anyway, that's not what >> Well, what size? Anyway, that's not what >> Well, what size? Anyway, that's not what you came here for. you came here for. you came here for. The numbers are worse than you think. The numbers are worse than you think. The numbers are worse than you think. Just like the numbers are worse than Just like the numbers are worse than Just like the numbers are worse than Alex thinks. Alex thinks. Alex thinks. >> Yeah, what are the macros on that? >> Yeah, what are the macros on that? >> Yeah, what are the macros on that? >> DI's. >> DI's. >> DI's. So, this came from the Gallup honesty So, this came from the Gallup honesty So, this came from the Gallup honesty and ethics survey. The latest data they and ethics survey. The latest data they and ethics survey. The latest data they had for this was 25 and 2026. And they had for this was 25 and 2026. And they had for this was 25 and 2026. And they found that only 27% of US adults say found that only 27% of US adults say found that only 27% of US adults say clergy have high or very high honesty clergy have high or very high honesty clergy have high or very high honesty and ethics, and ethics, and ethics, which is the lowest in Gallup's history. which is the lowest in Gallup's history. which is the lowest in Gallup's history. >> That's what they're saying about me? >> That's what they're saying about me? >> That's what they're saying about me? >> I would say pretty bad for someone who's >> I would say pretty bad for someone who's >> I would say pretty bad for someone who's meant to be a spiritual guide. meant to be a spiritual guide. meant to be a spiritual guide. >> Yeah, not great. >> Yeah, not great. >> Yeah, not great. >> You know? In the 2000s decade, the >> You know? In the 2000s decade, the >> You know? In the 2000s decade, the average was around 56%. average was around 56%. average was around 56%. Which meaning it's been cut in half. In Which meaning it's been cut in half. In Which meaning it's been cut in half. In 1985, it was 67%. 1985, it was 67%. 1985, it was 67%. Even post-9/11, Even post-9/11, Even post-9/11, it was it was it was 64% today 64% today 64% today 27 how low can it go well let's not 27 how low can it go well let's not 27 how low can it go well let's not that's that's that's >> like conceivably it can't go much lower >> like conceivably it can't go much lower >> like conceivably it can't go much lower than this like that's a really that's a than this like that's a really that's a than this like that's a really that's a really really really >> professions as low as 5% 7% we'll get to >> professions as low as 5% 7% we'll get to >> professions as low as 5% 7% we'll get to what they are the generational breakdown what they are the generational breakdown what they are the generational breakdown here is interesting too so if you are an here is interesting too so if you are an here is interesting too so if you are an American who's 55 plus American who's 55 plus American who's 55 plus you have 38% putting their trust in you have 38% putting their trust in you have 38% putting their trust in pastors pastors pastors if your age is 35 to 45 which I can if your age is 35 to 45 which I can if your age is 35 to 45 which I can sadly now say I am a part of sadly now say I am a part of sadly now say I am a part of gross 24% gross 24% gross 24% if you're under 34 Alex young man over if you're under 34 Alex young man over if you're under 34 Alex young man over here 17% so that trust gap is widening

here 17% so that trust gap is widening here 17% so that trust gap is widening with each younger generation here's with each younger generation here's with each younger generation here's where it gets scarier where it gets scarier where it gets scarier among all professions that Gallup has among all professions that Gallup has among all professions that Gallup has tracked since the early 2000s and tracked since the early 2000s and tracked since the early 2000s and there's like 20-ish that they rotate there's like 20-ish that they rotate there's like 20-ish that they rotate clergy trust has declined the most clergy trust has declined the most clergy trust has declined the most now that doesn't mean that they're now that doesn't mean that they're now that doesn't mean that they're trusted let's say less than car salesman trusted let's say less than car salesman trusted let's say less than car salesman but car salesman have actually held but car salesman have actually held but car salesman have actually held their trust better than we know who their trust better than we know who their trust better than we know who these guys are clergy now rank below these guys are clergy now rank below these guys are clergy now rank below nurses 75% medical doctors 57% and the nurses 75% medical doctors 57% and the nurses 75% medical doctors 57% and the famous trustworthy pharmacists famous trustworthy pharmacists famous trustworthy pharmacists >> so who are our mutuals who are we in the >> so who are our mutuals who are we in the >> so who are our mutuals who are we in the same kind of waters with around in the same kind of waters with around in the same kind of waters with around in the 27% range 27% range 27% range >> I don't want to answer that >> I don't want to answer that >> I don't want to answer that if you're wondering about this data if you're wondering about this data if you're wondering about this data Gallup is like the gold standard for Gallup is like the gold standard for Gallup is like the gold standard for this type of survey it's a national this type of survey it's a national this type of survey it's a national random sample tracked since the 1970s random sample tracked since the 1970s random sample tracked since the 1970s this is about as unambiguous as data can this is about as unambiguous as data can this is about as unambiguous as data can be okay this is not like a hit piece be okay this is not like a hit piece be okay this is not like a hit piece that was put out by an anti-church that was put out by an anti-church that was put out by an anti-church collective that was like car salesman collective that was like car salesman collective that was like car salesman probably better than pastors so why has probably better than pastors so why has probably better than pastors so why has this happened this happened this happened and again I will get to and again I will get to and again I will get to some of the other I will I will answer some of the other I will I will answer some of the other I will I will answer Alex's question Alex's question Alex's question let's talk about the different factors let's talk about the different factors let's talk about the different factors the first one has to be just like the the first one has to be just like the the first one has to be just like the scandals that have accumulated over the scandals that have accumulated over the scandals that have accumulated over the decades right There was the Catholic decades right There was the Catholic decades right There was the Catholic abuse crisis that's been ongoing since abuse crisis that's been ongoing since abuse crisis that's been ongoing since the early 2000s, but it is not unique to the early 2000s, but it is not unique to the early 2000s, but it is not unique to Catholics. These are evangelical Catholics. These are evangelical Catholics. These are evangelical megachurch leaders that are failing Mars megachurch leaders that are failing Mars megachurch leaders that are failing Mars Hill, Hillsong, Ravi Zacharias. Those Hill, Hillsong, Ravi Zacharias. Those Hill, Hillsong, Ravi Zacharias. Those are the three that come to mind. Like are the three that come to mind. Like are the three that come to mind. Like there are so many others that you could

there are so many others that you could there are so many others that you could put in there. put in there. put in there. There are the clergy sexual abuse There are the clergy sexual abuse There are the clergy sexual abuse scandals scandals scandals as a reason for leaving religion. We as a reason for leaving religion. We as a reason for leaving religion. We talked about that PRRI data on an talked about that PRRI data on an talked about that PRRI data on an episode episode episode a little while back. 19% of people cited a little while back. 19% of people cited a little while back. 19% of people cited that in 2016 a reason for leaving the that in 2016 a reason for leaving the that in 2016 a reason for leaving the church. 19. church. 19. church. 19. 39% 39% 39% citing that in 2024. citing that in 2024. citing that in 2024. >> Right. So twice as many people are >> Right. So twice as many people are >> Right. So twice as many people are leaving the church because of that. leaving the church because of that. leaving the church because of that. Among 40 among Catholics, 45% are saying Among 40 among Catholics, 45% are saying Among 40 among Catholics, 45% are saying scandals are a reason why they're scandals are a reason why they're scandals are a reason why they're leaving, but among former evangelicals, leaving, but among former evangelicals, leaving, but among former evangelicals, 34%. 34%. 34%. >> And importantly like >> And importantly like >> And importantly like for folks who don't identify as for folks who don't identify as for folks who don't identify as Christian, I find that the Catholic Christian, I find that the Catholic Christian, I find that the Catholic Protestant delineation is nothing to Protestant delineation is nothing to Protestant delineation is nothing to them. Like what they hear about the them. Like what they hear about the them. Like what they hear about the Catholic Church Catholic Church Catholic Church >> they they they just they they >> they they they just they they >> they they they just they they they kind of paint every Christian or they kind of paint every Christian or they kind of paint every Christian or follower of Jesus with the same brush. follower of Jesus with the same brush. follower of Jesus with the same brush. And then on top of all of this, you have And then on top of all of this, you have And then on top of all of this, you have the the digital age and the the the the digital age and the the the the digital age and the the connectedness of the internet that kind connectedness of the internet that kind connectedness of the internet that kind of exacerbates our awareness of of exacerbates our awareness of of exacerbates our awareness of these falling outs. You know, in a in a these falling outs. You know, in a in a these falling outs. You know, in a in a previous era of communication 20 years previous era of communication 20 years previous era of communication 20 years ago, 30 years ago, maybe I wouldn't have ago, 30 years ago, maybe I wouldn't have ago, 30 years ago, maybe I wouldn't have known about um Mark Driscoll. I wouldn't known about um Mark Driscoll. I wouldn't known about um Mark Driscoll. I wouldn't have listened to the podcast. I wouldn't have listened to the podcast. I wouldn't have listened to the podcast. I wouldn't have known about Ravi Zacharias. But have known about Ravi Zacharias. But have known about Ravi Zacharias. But because we're all interconnected, I'm because we're all interconnected, I'm because we're all interconnected, I'm more aware now of the scandals that are more aware now of the scandals that are more aware now of the scandals that are happening outside of my like happening outside of my like happening outside of my like geographical sphere of influence. So I geographical sphere of influence. So I geographical sphere of influence. So I think there's a couple confounding think there's a couple confounding think there's a couple confounding factors here that are resulting in like factors here that are resulting in like factors here that are resulting in like a well-documented and really unfortunate

a well-documented and really unfortunate a well-documented and really unfortunate degradation of of trust of this position degradation of of trust of this position degradation of of trust of this position of spiritual authority. of spiritual authority. of spiritual authority. >> Yeah, sometimes like my wife will ask me >> Yeah, sometimes like my wife will ask me >> Yeah, sometimes like my wife will ask me like, is everything bad in the world like, is everything bad in the world like, is everything bad in the world right now? And I'm like, well, maybe, right now? And I'm like, well, maybe, right now? And I'm like, well, maybe, but we're also just so much more hyper but we're also just so much more hyper but we're also just so much more hyper aware of it because our social feeds are aware of it because our social feeds are aware of it because our social feeds are going to tell us about it. And the going to tell us about it. And the going to tell us about it. And the second you stop and scroll on one, second you stop and scroll on one, second you stop and scroll on one, you're about to learn everything about you're about to learn everything about you're about to learn everything about that unfortunate subject. And so you that unfortunate subject. And so you that unfortunate subject. And so you have to be really on your guard with the have to be really on your guard with the have to be really on your guard with the stop and hold, not interested, not stop and hold, not interested, not stop and hold, not interested, not hovering over the stuff that's going to hovering over the stuff that's going to hovering over the stuff that's going to like get your heartbeat going because like get your heartbeat going because like get your heartbeat going because that will keep you on those platforms that will keep you on those platforms that will keep you on those platforms longer than virtually anything else. And longer than virtually anything else. And longer than virtually anything else. And the platforms know that, and so the the platforms know that, and so the the platforms know that, and so the cycle of showing you more that will cycle of showing you more that will cycle of showing you more that will continue. And that's a great point. Like continue. And that's a great point. Like continue. And that's a great point. Like we are so much more we are so much more we are so much more um um um inundated with stuff happening outside inundated with stuff happening outside inundated with stuff happening outside of like uh you know, whatever mile of like uh you know, whatever mile of like uh you know, whatever mile radius from our church. And that is radius from our church. And that is radius from our church. And that is maybe you know, changing the perception maybe you know, changing the perception maybe you know, changing the perception of Christianity overall. of Christianity overall. of Christianity overall. What else is happening? That's factor What else is happening? That's factor What else is happening? That's factor number one. number one. number one. And then I guess factor number two, And then I guess factor number two, And then I guess factor number two, which is just I think a great additional which is just I think a great additional which is just I think a great additional point like the digital age that has point like the digital age that has point like the digital age that has brought us into spaces that we brought us into spaces that we brought us into spaces that we previously would not have occupied.

previously would not have occupied. previously would not have occupied. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Factor number three, political >> Factor number three, political >> Factor number three, political entanglement. entanglement. entanglement. I think that the perception has really I think that the perception has really I think that the perception has really shifted here. shifted here. shifted here. And remember, we're working with And remember, we're working with And remember, we're working with American data here. We ourselves are American data here. We ourselves are American data here. We ourselves are Canadian. You know, Alex mentioned, you Canadian. You know, Alex mentioned, you Canadian. You know, Alex mentioned, you know, Protestant and Catholic kind of know, Protestant and Catholic kind of know, Protestant and Catholic kind of being looped together. I see that a lot being looped together. I see that a lot being looped together. I see that a lot in Canada. I think you'd probably see in Canada. I think you'd probably see in Canada. I think you'd probably see that in the UK, in Australia, maybe in that in the UK, in Australia, maybe in that in the UK, in Australia, maybe in America, especially in the South. Like America, especially in the South. Like America, especially in the South. Like there would be a more acute awareness of there would be a more acute awareness of there would be a more acute awareness of like, no, no, no, there's Christian and like, no, no, no, there's Christian and like, no, no, no, there's Christian and there's Catholic and those are there's Catholic and those are there's Catholic and those are different. different. different. But again, for Americans here, But again, for Americans here, But again, for Americans here, pastors are now associated with pastors are now associated with pastors are now associated with political advocacy and like one side of political advocacy and like one side of political advocacy and like one side of the political spectrum. the political spectrum. the political spectrum. And I think And I think And I think that that is compromising the that that is compromising the that that is compromising the credibility credibility credibility that should be given given to a you that should be given given to a you that should be given given to a you know, a spiritual guide. know, a spiritual guide. know, a spiritual guide. So, where do politicians land So, where do politicians land So, where do politicians land in the Gallup data? This is me getting in the Gallup data? This is me getting in the Gallup data? This is me getting back to the answer. back to the answer. back to the answer. Just 7% of respondents rated members of Just 7% of respondents rated members of Just 7% of respondents rated members of Congress as having high or very high Congress as having high or very high Congress as having high or very high ethical ethical ethical standards. Uh which is about the same as standards. Uh which is about the same as standards. Uh which is about the same as telemarketers at 5%. So, good company.

telemarketers at 5%. So, good company. telemarketers at 5%. So, good company. Meanwhile, 71% rated Congress' honesty Meanwhile, 71% rated Congress' honesty Meanwhile, 71% rated Congress' honesty and ethics as low or very low. The worst and ethics as low or very low. The worst and ethics as low or very low. The worst showing of any profession measured. So, showing of any profession measured. So, showing of any profession measured. So, put these two things together. put these two things together. put these two things together. Congress people are at 7%, clergy are at Congress people are at 7%, clergy are at Congress people are at 7%, clergy are at 27%. All right, we're doing a lot 27%. All right, we're doing a lot 27%. All right, we're doing a lot better. better. better. We're also the profession that has seen We're also the profession that has seen We're also the profession that has seen the steepest decline. the steepest decline. the steepest decline. So, what does that suggest to me? So, what does that suggest to me? So, what does that suggest to me? We have now We have now We have now become become become entangled with one of the lowest trust entangled with one of the lowest trust entangled with one of the lowest trust professions that exists. professions that exists. professions that exists. This is the bad company corrupts good This is the bad company corrupts good This is the bad company corrupts good morals, or in this case, bad company morals, or in this case, bad company morals, or in this case, bad company corrupts perception. You start dating corrupts perception. You start dating corrupts perception. You start dating that girl and you know, everyone's like, that girl and you know, everyone's like, that girl and you know, everyone's like, "I That's probably not good news." And "I That's probably not good news." And "I That's probably not good news." And like, now we're being perceived as that, like, now we're being perceived as that, like, now we're being perceived as that, which like which like which like Now, I'm not saying that like, your Now, I'm not saying that like, your Now, I'm not saying that like, your church now should not be involved in church now should not be involved in church now should not be involved in like advocacy. like advocacy. like advocacy. >> Sure. >> Sure. >> Sure. >> But like, this is a new angle to that >> But like, this is a new angle to that >> But like, this is a new angle to that that I think really might tip the scales that I think really might tip the scales that I think really might tip the scales on how you evaluate that. Because And on how you evaluate that. Because And on how you evaluate that. Because And again, again, again, teach their own.

teach their own. teach their own. There have been many churches that have There have been many churches that have There have been many churches that have realized that if we're really realized that if we're really realized that if we're really heavy-handed on the politics, heavy-handed on the politics, heavy-handed on the politics, we can really like get some people very we can really like get some people very we can really like get some people very committed to this church. committed to this church. committed to this church. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> The more >> The more >> The more polarity that we lean into, polarity that we lean into, polarity that we lean into, the more committed people are. the more committed people are. the more committed people are. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> And on the other side of that is like, >> And on the other side of that is like, >> And on the other side of that is like, we are people are very much we are people are very much we are people are very much understanding that they do not belong understanding that they do not belong understanding that they do not belong here, but the ones who do belong are here, but the ones who do belong are here, but the ones who do belong are here. There is no wishy-washy here. There is no wishy-washy here. There is no wishy-washy whatsoever. whatsoever. whatsoever. And And And you know, there are some pastors I know you know, there are some pastors I know you know, there are some pastors I know who do this, who like have a history of who do this, who like have a history of who do this, who like have a history of politics themselves. So, that makes politics themselves. So, that makes politics themselves. So, that makes sense, right? That that would be unique sense, right? That that would be unique sense, right? That that would be unique to your DNA. Um doing this to your DNA. Um doing this to your DNA. Um doing this strategically, maybe that's a bit strategically, maybe that's a bit strategically, maybe that's a bit different. irrespective. different. irrespective. different. irrespective. The fallout probably is that trust and The fallout probably is that trust and The fallout probably is that trust and credibility will decline for people that credibility will decline for people that credibility will decline for people that see you in that position. see you in that position. see you in that position. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. Is that worth the trade-off? I mean Is that worth the trade-off? I mean Is that worth the trade-off? I mean that's a tough one. that's a tough one. that's a tough one. >> My for long-time listeners of the show, >> My for long-time listeners of the show, >> My for long-time listeners of the show, they'll remember that my wife is they'll remember that my wife is they'll remember that my wife is American, Southern American. She's from American, Southern American. She's from American, Southern American. She's from South Carolina. And she's a midwife, so South Carolina. And she's a midwife, so South Carolina. And she's a midwife, so I'm going to put that in nurse as very I'm going to put that in nurse as very I'm going to put that in nurse as very trustworthy.

trustworthy. trustworthy. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Highest one there is. Well, isn't it >> Highest one there is. Well, isn't it >> Highest one there is. Well, isn't it amazing that you No one trusts you and amazing that you No one trusts you and amazing that you No one trusts you and everyone trusts her. How does that make everyone trusts her. How does that make everyone trusts her. How does that make you feel? you feel? you feel? >> Well, we were having this conversation >> Well, we were having this conversation >> Well, we were having this conversation the other day about um the role of the other day about um the role of the other day about um the role of American politics American politics American politics in the discourse of the Canadian church. in the discourse of the Canadian church. in the discourse of the Canadian church. >> Oh. >> Oh. >> Oh. >> Um of course, she's got contacts of >> Um of course, she's got contacts of >> Um of course, she's got contacts of living and growing up in the South. All living and growing up in the South. All living and growing up in the South. All of her family still living there, but of her family still living there, but of her family still living there, but now living and pastoring here in Canada. now living and pastoring here in Canada. now living and pastoring here in Canada. Now, we are in Canada, but I could throw Now, we are in Canada, but I could throw Now, we are in Canada, but I could throw a stone and hit Niagara Falls, New York. a stone and hit Niagara Falls, New York. a stone and hit Niagara Falls, New York. So, we're on a border town and it's for So, we're on a border town and it's for So, we're on a border town and it's for for Americans who don't who don't share for Americans who don't who don't share for Americans who don't who don't share our cultural context in Canada, it's our cultural context in Canada, it's our cultural context in Canada, it's hard to describe how hard to describe how hard to describe how close close close the American political sphere feels to the American political sphere feels to the American political sphere feels to our cultural like context. our cultural like context. our cultural like context. >> For context to that, my in-laws were >> For context to that, my in-laws were >> For context to that, my in-laws were over this weekend and I could bring up over this weekend and I could bring up over this weekend and I could bring up like any topic on the news that had to like any topic on the news that had to like any topic on the news that had to pertain to America and they were always pertain to America and they were always pertain to America and they were always like, "Oh, yeah. This is what's like, "Oh, yeah. This is what's like, "Oh, yeah. This is what's happening. This is what's happening." happening. This is what's happening." happening. This is what's happening." >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> But they're not from that country. If >> But they're not from that country. If >> But they're not from that country. If you're listening and you're not you're listening and you're not you're listening and you're not Canadian, that might seem weird, but Canadian, that might seem weird, but Canadian, that might seem weird, but like that's how we all are.

like that's how we all are. like that's how we all are. >> Yeah. And so, there's something to >> Yeah. And so, there's something to >> Yeah. And so, there's something to America being as big as it is, as America being as big as it is, as America being as big as it is, as influential on the global stage as it influential on the global stage as it influential on the global stage as it is, there's something to the evangelical is, there's something to the evangelical is, there's something to the evangelical identity in America and the political identity in America and the political identity in America and the political identity. This has been well documented identity. This has been well documented identity. This has been well documented by someone like Ryan Burge and other by someone like Ryan Burge and other by someone like Ryan Burge and other folks about political identity and folks about political identity and folks about political identity and religious identity in America. There is religious identity in America. There is religious identity in America. There is a great deal of polarity there that is a great deal of polarity there that is a great deal of polarity there that is seems in my pastoral experience to only seems in my pastoral experience to only seems in my pastoral experience to only becoming more binary and um it it's no becoming more binary and um it it's no becoming more binary and um it it's no surprise to me to use the word surprise to me to use the word surprise to me to use the word entanglement is very intentional here entanglement is very intentional here entanglement is very intentional here and very important because it's entirely and very important because it's entirely and very important because it's entirely different than engagement. You can be a different than engagement. You can be a different than engagement. You can be a politically engaged church or pastor politically engaged church or pastor politically engaged church or pastor without becoming entangled, I believe. without becoming entangled, I believe. without becoming entangled, I believe. And I think that could be recognized and And I think that could be recognized and And I think that could be recognized and respected as respected as respected as trustworthy. It's when it becomes trustworthy. It's when it becomes trustworthy. It's when it becomes entangled in a political system, a entangled in a political system, a entangled in a political system, a two-party political system effectively, two-party political system effectively, two-party political system effectively, that's so polarized where the the the that's so polarized where the the the that's so polarized where the the the trust begins to to erode.

trust begins to to erode. trust begins to to erode. It's the us versus them. It's the it's It's the us versus them. It's the it's It's the us versus them. It's the it's it's the categorizing into buckets. It it's the categorizing into buckets. It it's the categorizing into buckets. It just happens because of the nature of just happens because of the nature of just happens because of the nature of the political the political the political temperature in the United States right temperature in the United States right temperature in the United States right now in this political moment. now in this political moment. now in this political moment. So, that's a big conversation. It's not So, that's a big conversation. It's not So, that's a big conversation. It's not even the conversation we're trying to even the conversation we're trying to even the conversation we're trying to have on on this show today. It's part of have on on this show today. It's part of have on on this show today. It's part of it. Um but it. Um but it. Um but to to to see these numbers, to see the steep see these numbers, to see the steep see these numbers, to see the steep decline in pastoral decline in pastoral decline in pastoral trust or perceived trust in the pastoral trust or perceived trust in the pastoral trust or perceived trust in the pastoral office, that's office, that's office, that's in America, that's you know, in America, that's you know, in America, that's you know, it's a preeminent part of the it's a preeminent part of the it's a preeminent part of the conversation, for sure. conversation, for sure. conversation, for sure. >> And then, let's get to factor four, >> And then, let's get to factor four, >> And then, let's get to factor four, which is the institutional distrust which is the institutional distrust which is the institutional distrust wave. This is not only about churches. wave. This is not only about churches. wave. This is not only about churches. Trust in nearly every institution has Trust in nearly every institution has Trust in nearly every institution has declined in the past few decades. And declined in the past few decades. And declined in the past few decades. And maybe that again speaks to like digital maybe that again speaks to like digital maybe that again speaks to like digital awareness of like, "Oh, wow, all of awareness of like, "Oh, wow, all of awareness of like, "Oh, wow, all of these institutions and people that we these institutions and people that we these institutions and people that we held up in high regard are maybe not as held up in high regard are maybe not as held up in high regard are maybe not as bulletproof as we thought. Wow, how do bulletproof as we thought. Wow, how do bulletproof as we thought. Wow, how do we reconcile this? How do we reimagine we reconcile this? How do we reimagine we reconcile this? How do we reimagine these types of things?" these types of things?" these types of things?" Um again, Um again, Um again, the trust in pastors has dropped the trust in pastors has dropped the trust in pastors has dropped faster than all the others, faster than all the others, faster than all the others, suggesting that there are church suggesting that there are church suggesting that there are church specific factors that can amplify the specific factors that can amplify the specific factors that can amplify the trend. And then, you know, suggesting trend. And then, you know, suggesting trend. And then, you know, suggesting that there are things that we can work that there are things that we can work that there are things that we can work on and fix and at least investigate. And on and fix and at least investigate. And on and fix and at least investigate. And it's not just that we're a part of this it's not just that we're a part of this it's not just that we're a part of this wave that is including every single wave that is including every single wave that is including every single institution. But, it's not just us.

institution. But, it's not just us. institution. But, it's not just us. That's also included. So, That's also included. So, That's also included. So, how do we rebuild this trust? how do we rebuild this trust? how do we rebuild this trust? Principle number one. Principle number one. Principle number one. And we've got five here. And we've got five here. And we've got five here. Radical transparency in finances. I Radical transparency in finances. I Radical transparency in finances. I think this is an easy one. Publish your think this is an easy one. Publish your think this is an easy one. Publish your annual budget. Share where money goes. annual budget. Share where money goes. annual budget. Share where money goes. Not because a lawyer said you had to, Not because a lawyer said you had to, Not because a lawyer said you had to, not because there's a legal obligation not because there's a legal obligation not because there's a legal obligation because the jurisdiction that you're in because the jurisdiction that you're in because the jurisdiction that you're in requires it, but as a trust signal. As a requires it, but as a trust signal. As a requires it, but as a trust signal. As a way of saying there's nothing to hide. way of saying there's nothing to hide. way of saying there's nothing to hide. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> We'd love for you to see how we're >> We'd love for you to see how we're >> We'd love for you to see how we're spending the money that you're donating spending the money that you're donating spending the money that you're donating to this church. We want to be good to this church. We want to be good to this church. We want to be good stewards of it. There's no reason for us stewards of it. There's no reason for us stewards of it. There's no reason for us to hide it because to hide it because to hide it because if we did hide it, maybe that suggests if we did hide it, maybe that suggests if we did hide it, maybe that suggests that there's something untoward that there's something untoward that there's something untoward happening. happening. happening. >> But there's not, and to prove that to >> But there's not, and to prove that to >> But there's not, and to prove that to you, here it is. you, here it is. you, here it is. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Okay. >> Okay. >> Okay. >> Can I ask you how do you imagine the >> Can I ask you how do you imagine the >> Can I ask you how do you imagine the actual mechanics of like disclosing your actual mechanics of like disclosing your actual mechanics of like disclosing your finances? Sure, there's the annual finances? Sure, there's the annual finances? Sure, there's the annual business meeting that you have on business meeting that you have on business meeting that you have on Wednesday night in April every year Wednesday night in April every year Wednesday night in April every year that's by invite and you know, 10% of that's by invite and you know, 10% of that's by invite and you know, 10% of the church decides to come because the the church decides to come because the the church decides to come because the other 90% either doesn't care or they're other 90% either doesn't care or they're other 90% either doesn't care or they're doing something on their Wednesday doing something on their Wednesday doing something on their Wednesday night. But outside of that, what what's night. But outside of that, what what's night. But outside of that, what what's an actual like practical avenue to make an actual like practical avenue to make an actual like practical avenue to make this information available to your this information available to your this information available to your congregants?

congregants? congregants? >> Yeah, I had a conversation with a church >> Yeah, I had a conversation with a church >> Yeah, I had a conversation with a church about this recently and they told me about this recently and they told me about this recently and they told me that every year they have um like a that every year they have um like a that every year they have um like a website dedicated to all of their website dedicated to all of their website dedicated to all of their financials. And so people can visit financials. And so people can visit financials. And so people can visit that. I don't think they're linking it that. I don't think they're linking it that. I don't think they're linking it in the footer. in the footer. in the footer. >> Sure. >> Sure. >> Sure. >> But it's available for those that need >> But it's available for those that need >> But it's available for those that need it and it's not just yeah, wait until it and it's not just yeah, wait until it and it's not just yeah, wait until that one time per year. that one time per year. that one time per year. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Because even like that gatekeeping to >> Because even like that gatekeeping to >> Because even like that gatekeeping to that individual meeting that individual meeting that individual meeting >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> could be perceived as like, okay, that's >> could be perceived as like, okay, that's >> could be perceived as like, okay, that's like a pretty high standard or bar. I like a pretty high standard or bar. I like a pretty high standard or bar. I mean, I'm new to this church. I wasn't mean, I'm new to this church. I wasn't mean, I'm new to this church. I wasn't here 6 months ago when they had that. I here 6 months ago when they had that. I here 6 months ago when they had that. I don't want to wait another 6 months. don't want to wait another 6 months. don't want to wait another 6 months. What could I I look at? And so they have What could I I look at? And so they have What could I I look at? And so they have like a website that like is beautifully like a website that like is beautifully like a website that like is beautifully done and talks about all the things that done and talks about all the things that done and talks about all the things that have gone on in their church and all the have gone on in their church and all the have gone on in their church and all the life change and includes all the life change and includes all the life change and includes all the finances stuff. And so that's even great finances stuff. And so that's even great finances stuff. And so that's even great for contextualizing like the life change for contextualizing like the life change for contextualizing like the life change that comes from the money's that are that comes from the money's that are that comes from the money's that are being donated. being donated. being donated. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Uh principle number two, feature your >> Uh principle number two, feature your >> Uh principle number two, feature your pastor's imperfections, not just their pastor's imperfections, not just their pastor's imperfections, not just their authority. And so this can be as simple authority. And so this can be as simple authority. And so this can be as simple as your pastor being aware as your pastor being aware as your pastor being aware that that that hey, hey, hey, people used to trust you a lot because people used to trust you a lot because people used to trust you a lot because of the position that you hold.

of the position that you hold. of the position that you hold. Because of the position you hold, they Because of the position you hold, they Because of the position you hold, they don't trust you anymore. don't trust you anymore. don't trust you anymore. And the trust has actually declined And the trust has actually declined And the trust has actually declined faster than any other position. If that faster than any other position. If that faster than any other position. If that is known, that informs how you occupy is known, that informs how you occupy is known, that informs how you occupy that position. that position. that position. If you know that by default people are If you know that by default people are If you know that by default people are going to be skeptical, that changes how going to be skeptical, that changes how going to be skeptical, that changes how you communicate. you communicate. you communicate. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> And that's useful information to have. >> And that's useful information to have. >> And that's useful information to have. It might mean that you're more open to It might mean that you're more open to It might mean that you're more open to being like, "Oh, and by the way, like, being like, "Oh, and by the way, like, being like, "Oh, and by the way, like, you know, here's a mistake that I made you know, here's a mistake that I made you know, here's a mistake that I made recently." As a way of like helping recently." As a way of like helping recently." As a way of like helping people to let their guards down, to show people to let their guards down, to show people to let their guards down, to show that you're not just projecting that you're not just projecting that you're not just projecting perfection at every corner, which would perfection at every corner, which would perfection at every corner, which would probably exacerbate this problem where probably exacerbate this problem where probably exacerbate this problem where someone is already untrustworthy of you someone is already untrustworthy of you someone is already untrustworthy of you and you're projecting like that type of and you're projecting like that type of and you're projecting like that type of um um um to go back to the car salesman example. to go back to the car salesman example. to go back to the car salesman example. You go in. You go in. You go in. How Why are we buying cars like this How Why are we buying cars like this How Why are we buying cars like this still? I bought a Tesla like 6 years still? I bought a Tesla like 6 years still? I bought a Tesla like 6 years ago. ago. ago. I I I It was great. It was great. It was great. >> Yeah, just online. >> Yeah, just online. >> Yeah, just online. >> Yeah. Anyway. >> Yeah. Anyway. >> Yeah. Anyway. Um you go into that interaction and you Um you go into that interaction and you Um you go into that interaction and you like every sitcom has done this, right?

like every sitcom has done this, right? like every sitcom has done this, right? Like, "We're going to go in. You're not Like, "We're going to go in. You're not Like, "We're going to go in. You're not going to look at him. You're not going going to look at him. You're not going going to look at him. You're not going to shake his hand. You're not going to to shake his hand. You're not going to to shake his hand. You're not going to acknowledge him. We're going to go on acknowledge him. We're going to go on acknowledge him. We're going to go on this number. It's We're not going off this number. It's We're not going off this number. It's We're not going off the book, right?" And a good car the book, right?" And a good car the book, right?" And a good car salesman is not going to like present salesman is not going to like present salesman is not going to like present you with a ton of bravado and try to you with a ton of bravado and try to you with a ton of bravado and try to like big boy you because like they'll like big boy you because like they'll like big boy you because like they'll know that that is going to be know that that is going to be know that that is going to be antithetical to getting a deal done antithetical to getting a deal done antithetical to getting a deal done because of the position and posture that because of the position and posture that because of the position and posture that people come in expecting from you the people come in expecting from you the people come in expecting from you the salesman. salesman. salesman. Your job is to show that like you're not Your job is to show that like you're not Your job is to show that like you're not one of those one of those one of those >> Right. >> Right. >> Right. >> like tropes. That you're a real person >> like tropes. That you're a real person >> like tropes. That you're a real person and like you want to get a good deal and and like you want to get a good deal and and like you want to get a good deal and you want to help them get a good deal you want to help them get a good deal you want to help them get a good deal and everyone wins and you get the car and everyone wins and you get the car and everyone wins and you get the car that you want and they get the that you want and they get the that you want and they get the commission that they're after and great. commission that they're after and great. commission that they're after and great. Okay. Exactly. So, Okay. Exactly. So, Okay. Exactly. So, understanding that pastors and car understanding that pastors and car understanding that pastors and car salesmen are apparently the same. salesmen are apparently the same. salesmen are apparently the same. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Um >> Um >> Um how does that change how you how does that change how you how does that change how you communicate? Just the awareness of how communicate? Just the awareness of how communicate? Just the awareness of how you're perceived downstream of that will you're perceived downstream of that will you're perceived downstream of that will make an impact. make an impact. make an impact. >> There's this little handbook called In >> There's this little handbook called In >> There's this little handbook called In the Name of Jesus written by Henri the Name of Jesus written by Henri the Name of Jesus written by Henri Nouwen and it's the subtitle is like a Nouwen and it's the subtitle is like a Nouwen and it's the subtitle is like a book on Christian leadership or book on Christian leadership or book on Christian leadership or something. And I read it every year.

something. And I read it every year. something. And I read it every year. It's short. Honestly, you could read it It's short. Honestly, you could read it It's short. Honestly, you could read it in one sitting. And I would recommend in one sitting. And I would recommend in one sitting. And I would recommend any pastors listening to pick it up if any pastors listening to pick it up if any pastors listening to pick it up if you haven't. And and have a little read you haven't. And and have a little read you haven't. And and have a little read through it. through it. through it. Because in in the second section he Because in in the second section he Because in in the second section he talks about the the the our false need talks about the the the our false need talks about the the the our false need to be significant, I think. And the to be significant, I think. And the to be significant, I think. And the counter practice that he suggests to counter practice that he suggests to counter practice that he suggests to dispel that is confession. And he talks dispel that is confession. And he talks dispel that is confession. And he talks about how like the pulpit is not the about how like the pulpit is not the about how like the pulpit is not the place for like airing all your dirty place for like airing all your dirty place for like airing all your dirty laundry, but it's also not the place to laundry, but it's also not the place to laundry, but it's also not the place to pretend that you don't have anything to pretend that you don't have anything to pretend that you don't have anything to confess and that you're not just one of confess and that you're not just one of confess and that you're not just one of us. And so there's a there's tact and us. And so there's a there's tact and us. And so there's a there's tact and there's wisdom discernment there's wisdom discernment there's wisdom discernment there there there for for how to model that in your for for how to model that in your for for how to model that in your community. community. community. But I can think back a few years ago to But I can think back a few years ago to But I can think back a few years ago to one Sunday in particular where yeah, I I confessed something to my yeah, I I confessed something to my congregation. Again, not in not in the congregation. Again, not in not in the congregation. Again, not in not in the way of like airing my dirty laundry, was way of like airing my dirty laundry, was way of like airing my dirty laundry, was just something that that that I I wanted just something that that that I I wanted just something that that that I I wanted to to share. And it broke something open to to share. And it broke something open to to share. And it broke something open in the room that day. I can remember how in the room that day. I can remember how in the room that day. I can remember how that how that Sunday service felt. This that how that Sunday service felt. This that how that Sunday service felt. This is years ago now.

is years ago now. is years ago now. And so it's just an important spiritual And so it's just an important spiritual And so it's just an important spiritual practice because for practice because for practice because for for pastors confession is one of the for pastors confession is one of the for pastors confession is one of the spiritual practices that often kind of spiritual practices that often kind of spiritual practices that often kind of just falls by the wayside. There's just just falls by the wayside. There's just just falls by the wayside. There's just other things to do. Maybe that we've other things to do. Maybe that we've other things to do. Maybe that we've lost someone to confess to. lost someone to confess to. lost someone to confess to. And so to reclaim that in in the space And so to reclaim that in in the space And so to reclaim that in in the space of authority, not just going to someone of authority, not just going to someone of authority, not just going to someone else outside your community and else outside your community and else outside your community and confessing or your partner, your wife, confessing or your partner, your wife, confessing or your partner, your wife, or whatever, but in the space of where or whatever, but in the space of where or whatever, but in the space of where you are the position of spiritual you are the position of spiritual you are the position of spiritual authority, certainly goes a long way to authority, certainly goes a long way to authority, certainly goes a long way to earn or regain any measure of trust that earn or regain any measure of trust that earn or regain any measure of trust that has ever been kind of lost in the has ever been kind of lost in the has ever been kind of lost in the process. process. process. >> I think my pastor does a really good job >> I think my pastor does a really good job >> I think my pastor does a really good job of threading that needle because you can of threading that needle because you can of threading that needle because you can I mean I mean I mean pastors almost never air on that side pastors almost never air on that side pastors almost never air on that side but like the airing of dirty laundry as but like the airing of dirty laundry as but like the airing of dirty laundry as an example like that that's just again an example like that that's just again an example like that that's just again not the time and place. not the time and place. not the time and place. Um Um Um but my pastor will like preach the Bible but my pastor will like preach the Bible but my pastor will like preach the Bible and say like this is a principle that we and say like this is a principle that we and say like this is a principle that we have to uphold and we need to live by. have to uphold and we need to live by. have to uphold and we need to live by. And he'll say it with authority and And he'll say it with authority and And he'll say it with authority and conviction and in a way that embodies conviction and in a way that embodies conviction and in a way that embodies the scriptures.

the scriptures. the scriptures. And then he'll say like and just so you And then he'll say like and just so you And then he'll say like and just so you know like I don't get this right all the know like I don't get this right all the know like I don't get this right all the time. And like just a simple line like time. And like just a simple line like time. And like just a simple line like that to then like diffuse any that to then like diffuse any that to then like diffuse any belief that like by the way I have belief that like by the way I have belief that like by the way I have actually held this in fullness my entire actually held this in fullness my entire actually held this in fullness my entire life. It's like no no this is the life. It's like no no this is the life. It's like no no this is the standard standard standard that is 100% black and white and by the that is 100% black and white and by the that is 100% black and white and by the way my goodness I don't reach this way my goodness I don't reach this way my goodness I don't reach this standard. Thankfully I have Jesus. Like standard. Thankfully I have Jesus. Like standard. Thankfully I have Jesus. Like even that little thing even that little thing even that little thing allows you to walk that line because if allows you to walk that line because if allows you to walk that line because if you just all you do is like air your you just all you do is like air your you just all you do is like air your laundry how are you going to preach the laundry how are you going to preach the laundry how are you going to preach the Bible and like with conviction and and Bible and like with conviction and and Bible and like with conviction and and in a way that people are able to hear in a way that people are able to hear in a way that people are able to hear they're going to like why would I listen they're going to like why would I listen they're going to like why would I listen to this guy sort of thing. to this guy sort of thing. to this guy sort of thing. Principle number three build multiple Principle number three build multiple Principle number three build multiple voices not just one on the platform. voices not just one on the platform. voices not just one on the platform. The The The you know single pastor platform model you know single pastor platform model you know single pastor platform model does have a greater vulnerability and does have a greater vulnerability and does have a greater vulnerability and liability when you look at it through liability when you look at it through liability when you look at it through this lens and we're seeing this become this lens and we're seeing this become this lens and we're seeing this become more and more popular in churches where more and more popular in churches where more and more popular in churches where you know even your church is a good you know even your church is a good you know even your church is a good example and my church where the lead example and my church where the lead example and my church where the lead pastor preaches a lot and then there's pastor preaches a lot and then there's pastor preaches a lot and then there's like he doesn't preach every single like he doesn't preach every single like he doesn't preach every single week. You know we have like our exec who week. You know we have like our exec who week. You know we have like our exec who preaches once a month and then we have preaches once a month and then we have preaches once a month and then we have others that regularly share the stage.

others that regularly share the stage. others that regularly share the stage. You have your dad that preaches and then You have your dad that preaches and then You have your dad that preaches and then you half and half-ish? you half and half-ish? you half and half-ish? >> Yeah half and half and then there's >> Yeah half and half and then there's >> Yeah half and half and then there's actually someone else in our community actually someone else in our community actually someone else in our community that's started like preaching that's started like preaching that's started like preaching semi-regularly and we'll bring semi-regularly and we'll bring semi-regularly and we'll bring you know trusted voices from other you know trusted voices from other you know trusted voices from other communities in every once in a while but communities in every once in a while but communities in every once in a while but yeah that's something where we're aware yeah that's something where we're aware yeah that's something where we're aware of is not centering of is not centering of is not centering one voice one voice one voice unnecessarily. Sometimes I think it unnecessarily. Sometimes I think it unnecessarily. Sometimes I think it happens sometimes I think it can happen happens sometimes I think it can happen happens sometimes I think it can happen necessarily in some certain necessarily in some certain necessarily in some certain circumstances. it care to like to to circumstances. it care to like to to circumstances. it care to like to to hypothesize about them, but I I've I've hypothesize about them, but I I've I've hypothesize about them, but I I've I've been in enough church context, spoken to been in enough church context, spoken to been in enough church context, spoken to enough churches to know that like yeah, enough churches to know that like yeah, enough churches to know that like yeah, it it happens necessarily sometimes. So it it happens necessarily sometimes. So it it happens necessarily sometimes. So like there's there's one voice like there's there's one voice like there's there's one voice predominantly in this community. But I predominantly in this community. But I predominantly in this community. But I think ideally to move to an increased think ideally to move to an increased think ideally to move to an increased number of voices is just is uh a more number of voices is just is uh a more number of voices is just is uh a more kind of holistic vision for what it kind of holistic vision for what it kind of holistic vision for what it looks like to practice faith in looks like to practice faith in looks like to practice faith in community." community." community." >> Yeah, and there's lots of times where >> Yeah, and there's lots of times where >> Yeah, and there's lots of times where the stage is being used to share the stage is being used to share the stage is being used to share communications. It's not preaching. communications. It's not preaching. communications. It's not preaching. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> So, >> So, >> So, if we understand the liability that if we understand the liability that if we understand the liability that comes from maybe one person being seen comes from maybe one person being seen comes from maybe one person being seen only up there, yeah, like don't have only up there, yeah, like don't have only up there, yeah, like don't have them doing the announcements as well.

them doing the announcements as well. them doing the announcements as well. Don't have them doing like every little Don't have them doing like every little Don't have them doing like every little thing where you only see that one person thing where you only see that one person thing where you only see that one person on there. Again, that's only going to on there. Again, that's only going to on there. Again, that's only going to probably heighten the skepticism that a probably heighten the skepticism that a probably heighten the skepticism that a person has coming into that place person has coming into that place person has coming into that place understanding where they're starting understanding where they're starting understanding where they're starting from. This is an important additional from. This is an important additional from. This is an important additional piece of data to share because it is piece of data to share because it is piece of data to share because it is paradoxical. paradoxical. paradoxical. Trust in clergy, trust in pastors, has Trust in clergy, trust in pastors, has Trust in clergy, trust in pastors, has declined faster than any uh profession. declined faster than any uh profession. declined faster than any uh profession. But confidence in church But confidence in church But confidence in church is actually rising. And again, this is is actually rising. And again, this is is actually rising. And again, this is from Gallup from Gallup from Gallup that that that the confidence in the church as an the confidence in the church as an the confidence in the church as an institution in the past few years is institution in the past few years is institution in the past few years is beginning to rebound. It's not high, but beginning to rebound. It's not high, but beginning to rebound. It's not high, but it's rebounding. So, in 2022, 31% it's rebounding. So, in 2022, 31% it's rebounding. So, in 2022, 31% were confident in the church, were confident in the church, were confident in the church, which is a historical low. So again, which is a historical low. So again, which is a historical low. So again, this is not like you know, this is not like you know, this is not like you know, not praising God about this. not praising God about this. not praising God about this. >> yeah, man, I had four strikeouts >> yeah, man, I had four strikeouts >> yeah, man, I had four strikeouts yesterday. I only had three today. yesterday. I only had three today. yesterday. I only had three today. >> Wow, huge improvement. >> Wow, huge improvement. >> Wow, huge improvement. In 2025, that 31% confidence had gone up In 2025, that 31% confidence had gone up In 2025, that 31% confidence had gone up to 36%.

to 36%. to 36%. >> Okay. That's interesting. >> Okay. That's interesting. >> Okay. That's interesting. >> That the pastoral confidence continues >> That the pastoral confidence continues >> That the pastoral confidence continues to decline, but the trust in the church to decline, but the trust in the church to decline, but the trust in the church as an institution is a little little as an institution is a little little as an institution is a little little little rebound. So that would suggest little rebound. So that would suggest little rebound. So that would suggest that that that and this gets back to like and this gets back to like and this gets back to like institutional trust overall is institutional trust overall is institutional trust overall is declining. There's the scandals like declining. There's the scandals like declining. There's the scandals like I've never been in a church that had a I've never been in a church that had a I've never been in a church that had a scandal. Why am I like the one that's scandal. Why am I like the one that's scandal. Why am I like the one that's Yeah, I get it, right? We're not a Yeah, I get it, right? We're not a Yeah, I get it, right? We're not a political church. Like we we're we're political church. Like we we're we're political church. Like we we're we're engaged politically, but we're not like, engaged politically, but we're not like, engaged politically, but we're not like, you know, like advocate We're We're you know, like advocate We're We're you know, like advocate We're We're DOING EVERYTHING RIGHT. WHY? I DOING EVERYTHING RIGHT. WHY? I DOING EVERYTHING RIGHT. WHY? I UNDERSTAND. UNDERSTAND. UNDERSTAND. >> YEAH. >> YEAH. >> YEAH. >> You could actively platform more people >> You could actively platform more people >> You could actively platform more people and that would and that would and that would theoretically move the needle in the theoretically move the needle in the theoretically move the needle in the right direction because you're leaning right direction because you're leaning right direction because you're leaning into where the trust is and you're not into where the trust is and you're not into where the trust is and you're not having that like single person who might having that like single person who might having that like single person who might be a liability. be a liability. be a liability. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Principle number four, address the >> Principle number four, address the >> Principle number four, address the elephant in the room. Don't elephant in the room. Don't elephant in the room. Don't Don't pretend that this crisis doesn't Don't pretend that this crisis doesn't Don't pretend that this crisis doesn't exist. Acknowledge it from stage. Not exist. Acknowledge it from stage. Not exist. Acknowledge it from stage. Not every week. every week. every week. >> So, I hear you don't trust me. >> So, I hear you don't trust me. >> So, I hear you don't trust me. >> I know that Anyway, and that's why we >> I know that Anyway, and that's why we >> I know that Anyway, and that's why we should love should love should love our neighbors. Now, I KNOW WHY YOU our neighbors. Now, I KNOW WHY YOU our neighbors. Now, I KNOW WHY YOU WOULDN'T BELIEVE that cuz you all hate WOULDN'T BELIEVE that cuz you all hate WOULDN'T BELIEVE that cuz you all hate me.

me. me. I don't even know why you're here. I don't even know why you're here. I don't even know why you're here. So, um So, um So, um why does this matter? why does this matter? why does this matter? This is again downstream from this idea This is again downstream from this idea This is again downstream from this idea of confection confession confession, not of confection confession confession, not of confection confession confession, not confection. Man, I'm hungry. Acknowledging Acknowledging something something something that is unsaid that is unsaid that is unsaid >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> builds trust. I I don't know why it's >> builds trust. I I don't know why it's >> builds trust. I I don't know why it's this simple. It's the reason why this simple. It's the reason why this simple. It's the reason why sometimes you just need to say, "By the sometimes you just need to say, "By the sometimes you just need to say, "By the way, I am sorry." way, I am sorry." way, I am sorry." >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Like you could show that you're sorry. >> Like you could show that you're sorry. >> Like you could show that you're sorry. >> Yes, yeah. >> Yes, yeah. >> Yes, yeah. >> You could be contrite, but sometimes you >> You could be contrite, but sometimes you >> You could be contrite, but sometimes you just need to acknowledge and label the just need to acknowledge and label the just need to acknowledge and label the thing. thing. thing. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> This is also true when you're >> This is also true when you're >> This is also true when you're communicating. If you can acknowledge communicating. If you can acknowledge communicating. If you can acknowledge someone's someone's someone's objection objection objection when you're making a statement, when you're making a statement, when you're making a statement, >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> you can like basically >> you can like basically >> you can like basically confirm the belief you're trying to confirm the belief you're trying to confirm the belief you're trying to share in their head by acknowledging share in their head by acknowledging share in their head by acknowledging their objection without them having to their objection without them having to their objection without them having to bring it up. We just know this about bring it up. We just know this about bring it up. We just know this about communication. So, you might say communication. So, you might say communication. So, you might say something like, something like, something like, "And by the way, this is why we believe "And by the way, this is why we believe "And by the way, this is why we believe that you should love your neighbors."

that you should love your neighbors." that you should love your neighbors." Now, I know what you're thinking. Now, I know what you're thinking. Now, I know what you're thinking. "Who is my neighbor?" And if there's "Who is my neighbor?" And if there's "Who is my neighbor?" And if there's someone else thought that like as soon someone else thought that like as soon someone else thought that like as soon as you said it, they might might like, as you said it, they might might like, as you said it, they might might like, "I don't know what this guy's about to "I don't know what this guy's about to "I don't know what this guy's about to say, but I'm going to believe it. say, but I'm going to believe it. say, but I'm going to believe it. Because they were inside my head. And Because they were inside my head. And Because they were inside my head. And that's just funny how like the human that's just funny how like the human that's just funny how like the human condition is. But just labeling the condition is. But just labeling the condition is. But just labeling the thing, acknowledging the thing, it's not thing, acknowledging the thing, it's not thing, acknowledging the thing, it's not a bad thing. It's a good thing. It a bad thing. It's a good thing. It a bad thing. It's a good thing. It actually is a trust signal in and of actually is a trust signal in and of actually is a trust signal in and of itself. itself. itself. >> Acknowledging amongst your team, right? >> Acknowledging amongst your team, right? >> Acknowledging amongst your team, right? When you're sitting down to to decide When you're sitting down to to decide When you're sitting down to to decide what decisions you're going to make, what decisions you're going to make, what decisions you're going to make, what what your vision is, what your what what your vision is, what your what what your vision is, what your programmatically what what what which programmatically what what what which programmatically what what what which way you're going to go. Acknowledging way you're going to go. Acknowledging way you're going to go. Acknowledging that like, "Hey, when folks come come that like, "Hey, when folks come come that like, "Hey, when folks come come visit our church, we know that their visit our church, we know that their visit our church, we know that their institutional trust is low. And their institutional trust is low. And their institutional trust is low. And their trust in our spiritual trust in our spiritual trust in our spiritual uh authoritative voice is even lower uh authoritative voice is even lower uh authoritative voice is even lower than that. So, we need to account for than that. So, we need to account for than that. So, we need to account for that in the way we greet them, or the that in the way we greet them, or the that in the way we greet them, or the way we talk, or the way we welcome them way we talk, or the way we welcome them way we talk, or the way we welcome them to the communion table, or the way we um to the communion table, or the way we um to the communion table, or the way we um make way for them to to go to kids make way for them to to go to kids make way for them to to go to kids ministry. We like acknowledging that ministry. We like acknowledging that ministry. We like acknowledging that amongst your teams as well is going to amongst your teams as well is going to amongst your teams as well is going to help you make better informed decisions help you make better informed decisions help you make better informed decisions that cater to where people are at and that cater to where people are at and that cater to where people are at and what foot they're walking into your what foot they're walking into your what foot they're walking into your church on when they visit your church church on when they visit your church church on when they visit your church for the first time."

for the first time." for the first time." >> You bring up an important point about >> You bring up an important point about >> You bring up an important point about the leadership team of the church. Like, the leadership team of the church. Like, the leadership team of the church. Like, we haven't mentioned them. We've really we haven't mentioned them. We've really we haven't mentioned them. We've really been talking about like pastor and been talking about like pastor and been talking about like pastor and congregation. But to assume that this congregation. But to assume that this congregation. But to assume that this skepticism does not exist in your skepticism does not exist in your skepticism does not exist in your leadership would be naive. Like, leadership would be naive. Like, leadership would be naive. Like, most of us have served in multiple most of us have served in multiple most of us have served in multiple churches. churches. churches. The more churches that you serve in, the The more churches that you serve in, the The more churches that you serve in, the more likely you are to come across a more likely you are to come across a more likely you are to come across a toxic leader, or have some church hurt, toxic leader, or have some church hurt, toxic leader, or have some church hurt, or have a season that was like or have a season that was like or have a season that was like difficult, and it was because of difficult, and it was because of difficult, and it was because of leaders. So, leaders. So, leaders. So, if you even want to build a healthy if you even want to build a healthy if you even want to build a healthy culture among your leadership team and culture among your leadership team and culture among your leadership team and staff, you have to recognize that some staff, you have to recognize that some staff, you have to recognize that some of this will probably be of this will probably be of this will probably be correctly carried by them. And they're correctly carried by them. And they're correctly carried by them. And they're still serving. So, they're not using it still serving. So, they're not using it still serving. So, they're not using it as like a reason to disqualify as like a reason to disqualify as like a reason to disqualify themselves from ministry. I can't serve themselves from ministry. I can't serve themselves from ministry. I can't serve in church anymore because clearly it's in church anymore because clearly it's in church anymore because clearly it's all messed up. No, they're still there. all messed up. No, they're still there. all messed up. No, they're still there. So, the fact that you acknowledge it is So, the fact that you acknowledge it is So, the fact that you acknowledge it is is like critical because you is like critical because you is like critical because you acknowledging it says, "Hey, like, what acknowledging it says, "Hey, like, what acknowledging it says, "Hey, like, what an amazing thing that you would still be an amazing thing that you would still be an amazing thing that you would still be a part of this. And I just want to prove a part of this. And I just want to prove a part of this. And I just want to prove to you that I'm not going to be that to you that I'm not going to be that to you that I'm not going to be that type of leader and you can trust me and type of leader and you can trust me and type of leader and you can trust me and I'm going to do everything that I can to I'm going to do everything that I can to I'm going to do everything that I can to keep that trust earned and protect it.

keep that trust earned and protect it. keep that trust earned and protect it. Final principle of the five is to over Final principle of the five is to over Final principle of the five is to over communicate accountability structures. communicate accountability structures. communicate accountability structures. Does your church have a board? Do you Does your church have a board? Do you Does your church have a board? Do you have financial oversight? Do you have have financial oversight? Do you have have financial oversight? Do you have pastor accountability? pastor accountability? pastor accountability? Tell people repeatedly. Again, something Tell people repeatedly. Again, something Tell people repeatedly. Again, something that our church does well, I think. that our church does well, I think. that our church does well, I think. Look, people don't even come to church, Look, people don't even come to church, Look, people don't even come to church, man. It's like two out of every five man. It's like two out of every five man. It's like two out of every five Sundays on average, except for the Sundays on average, except for the Sundays on average, except for the millennials. They come 2.1 the Gen Zs. millennials. They come 2.1 the Gen Zs. millennials. They come 2.1 the Gen Zs. They come almost 2.1 times. They come almost 2.1 times. They come almost 2.1 times. >> Yes. Historic numbers, everyone. >> Yes. Historic numbers, everyone. >> Yes. Historic numbers, everyone. >> That's a >> That's a >> That's a reference to an earlier podcast. reference to an earlier podcast. reference to an earlier podcast. Hopefully you listened to that. Hopefully you listened to that. Hopefully you listened to that. Otherwise, we'll keep moving. Um Otherwise, we'll keep moving. Um Otherwise, we'll keep moving. Um The churches that get in trouble here The churches that get in trouble here The churches that get in trouble here are are are the ones that are not going are are are the ones that are not going are are are the ones that are not going to have that visibility to have that visibility to have that visibility on their accountability structures. on their accountability structures. on their accountability structures. My church does this well. We know My church does this well. We know My church does this well. We know everyone doesn't come to church every everyone doesn't come to church every everyone doesn't come to church every single week. And so we frequently single week. And so we frequently single week. And so we frequently mention like how our church is governed. mention like how our church is governed. mention like how our church is governed. So and by the way, like just cuz I'm the So and by the way, like just cuz I'm the So and by the way, like just cuz I'm the pastor on stage, doesn't mean I get to pastor on stage, doesn't mean I get to pastor on stage, doesn't mean I get to make all the decisions. We have a board make all the decisions. We have a board make all the decisions. We have a board and they do this, this, and this. And and they do this, this, and this. And and they do this, this, and this. And then I am responsible to the board and then I am responsible to the board and then I am responsible to the board and the board is responsible to you and they the board is responsible to you and they the board is responsible to you and they like we'll explain it from stage. If like we'll explain it from stage. If like we'll explain it from stage. If you're a visitor who's never heard that you're a visitor who's never heard that you're a visitor who's never heard that before, great. Like I've heard it like a before, great. Like I've heard it like a before, great. Like I've heard it like a bunch of times, but like it's still good bunch of times, but like it's still good bunch of times, but like it's still good to know. And that does what? It's a to know. And that does what? It's a to know. And that does what? It's a trust signal. Hey, by the way, I am not trust signal. Hey, by the way, I am not trust signal. Hey, by the way, I am not unilaterally making decisions. This is unilaterally making decisions. This is unilaterally making decisions. This is how decisions are made. There is a how decisions are made. There is a how decisions are made. There is a review process. There is an review process. There is an review process. There is an accountability process. And the more accountability process. And the more accountability process. And the more that you state that, the more people can that you state that, the more people can that you state that, the more people can say, all right, so say, all right, so say, all right, so when you come to decisions, I understand when you come to decisions, I understand when you come to decisions, I understand that a lot of people are contributing to that a lot of people are contributing to that a lot of people are contributing to this and there's a process and great.

this and there's a process and great. this and there's a process and great. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Five principles. >> Five principles. >> Five principles. >> Five principles. >> Five principles. >> Five principles. To summarize. Radical transparency in To summarize. Radical transparency in To summarize. Radical transparency in finances, number one. Feature your finances, number one. Feature your finances, number one. Feature your pastor's imperfections, not just their pastor's imperfections, not just their pastor's imperfections, not just their authority, number two. Thread that authority, number two. Thread that authority, number two. Thread that needle, number three. Build multiple needle, number three. Build multiple needle, number three. Build multiple voices, not just one on the platform, voices, not just one on the platform, voices, not just one on the platform, number four. Address the elephant in the number four. Address the elephant in the number four. Address the elephant in the room. room. room. This is a different version of name it This is a different version of name it This is a different version of name it claim it. claim it. claim it. >> Mhm. like a good version. >> Mhm. like a good version. >> Mhm. like a good version. >> Gosh. Principle number five, over >> Gosh. Principle number five, over >> Gosh. Principle number five, over communicate accountability structures. communicate accountability structures. communicate accountability structures. Trust is rebuilt through communications. Trust is rebuilt through communications. Trust is rebuilt through communications. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Financial transparency. Being >> Financial transparency. Being >> Financial transparency. Being vulnerable. Multiple voices. vulnerable. Multiple voices. vulnerable. Multiple voices. Acknowledging the crisis that exists. Acknowledging the crisis that exists. Acknowledging the crisis that exists. Visible accountability structures. All Visible accountability structures. All Visible accountability structures. All of these things are in your control. of these things are in your control. of these things are in your control. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Maybe you came into this position as a >> Maybe you came into this position as a >> Maybe you came into this position as a pastor and you're like, "Wow, it would pastor and you're like, "Wow, it would pastor and you're like, "Wow, it would have been a lot easier in the '80s." have been a lot easier in the '80s." have been a lot easier in the '80s." Yeah, it would have been cuz there would Yeah, it would have been cuz there would Yeah, it would have been cuz there would have been like implicit trust given to have been like implicit trust given to have been like implicit trust given to you because of the position that you you because of the position that you you because of the position that you hold. Now that is reserved for hold. Now that is reserved for hold. Now that is reserved for pharmacists, okay? That's just how it pharmacists, okay? That's just how it pharmacists, okay? That's just how it is. And so what can we do actively is. And so what can we do actively is. And so what can we do actively to build up trustworthiness in your to build up trustworthiness in your to build up trustworthiness in your region, in your congregation, amongst region, in your congregation, amongst region, in your congregation, amongst your leadership team and your staff your leadership team and your staff your leadership team and your staff members because when trust like that members because when trust like that members because when trust like that exists, exists, exists, that is necessary for life change to that is necessary for life change to that is necessary for life change to take place. Because when you ask people take place. Because when you ask people take place. Because when you ask people to believe in something you preach, when to believe in something you preach, when to believe in something you preach, when you ask them to get involved in a you ask them to get involved in a you ask them to get involved in a ministry, when you ask them to give to a ministry, when you ask them to give to a ministry, when you ask them to give to a need, if they trust you, need, if they trust you, need, if they trust you, they're more likely to respond and to do they're more likely to respond and to do they're more likely to respond and to do it. That's an interesting thing in it. That's an interesting thing in it. That's an interesting thing in hindsight now of the conversation that hindsight now of the conversation that hindsight now of the conversation that you and I have just had to look back on

you and I have just had to look back on you and I have just had to look back on the last 30 minutes we spent together the last 30 minutes we spent together the last 30 minutes we spent together under the banner of that line that trust under the banner of that line that trust under the banner of that line that trust is rebuilt through communications. is rebuilt through communications. is rebuilt through communications. I think that's probably the one of the I think that's probably the one of the I think that's probably the one of the most important things that we've said most important things that we've said most important things that we've said throughout this entire conversation throughout this entire conversation throughout this entire conversation here. You know, when you think about if here. You know, when you think about if here. You know, when you think about if you've had um you've had um you've had um you know, I'm thinking about a a marital you know, I'm thinking about a a marital you know, I'm thinking about a a marital relationship or maybe a friendship or relationship or maybe a friendship or relationship or maybe a friendship or whatever. You've had a relationship whatever. You've had a relationship whatever. You've had a relationship where trust has been broken like pretty where trust has been broken like pretty where trust has been broken like pretty severely. severely. severely. If you go to a therapist to repair that If you go to a therapist to repair that If you go to a therapist to repair that or you find other avenues to repair or you find other avenues to repair or you find other avenues to repair that, there are things that you have to that, there are things that you have to that, there are things that you have to do to regain and rebuild that trust, to do to regain and rebuild that trust, to do to regain and rebuild that trust, to repair that relationship. And it often repair that relationship. And it often repair that relationship. And it often you mentioned it earlier, it can it can you mentioned it earlier, it can it can you mentioned it earlier, it can it can be rebuilt in through what you do, acts be rebuilt in through what you do, acts be rebuilt in through what you do, acts of service, gifts, what have you. But of service, gifts, what have you. But of service, gifts, what have you. But really, the meat of it, the what what really, the meat of it, the what what really, the meat of it, the what what what's kind of the foundation of it all what's kind of the foundation of it all what's kind of the foundation of it all is like through what you say, through is like through what you say, through is like through what you say, through the work you do with your words. the work you do with your words. the work you do with your words. Um, and so it's possible that there are Um, and so it's possible that there are Um, and so it's possible that there are pastors or leaders um, who turned on pastors or leaders um, who turned on pastors or leaders um, who turned on this podcast today and didn't know that this podcast today and didn't know that this podcast today and didn't know that the trust in their office had like the trust in their office had like the trust in their office had like plummeted. plummeted. plummeted. >> Sorry about that. >> Sorry about that. >> Sorry about that. >> And now they know.

>> And now they know. >> And now they know. And that if that was a revelation to you And that if that was a revelation to you And that if that was a revelation to you today, if you're listening to our voices today, if you're listening to our voices today, if you're listening to our voices even now, and that was a revelation to even now, and that was a revelation to even now, and that was a revelation to you today, that could feel like a lot. you today, that could feel like a lot. you today, that could feel like a lot. Um, Um, Um, and and and and the the work ahead of all of us who and the the work ahead of all of us who and the the work ahead of all of us who belong to the capital C church, because belong to the capital C church, because belong to the capital C church, because it's not just the trust between me, the it's not just the trust between me, the it's not just the trust between me, the pastor, and my congregation. It's trust pastor, and my congregation. It's trust pastor, and my congregation. It's trust between like followers of Jesus between like followers of Jesus between like followers of Jesus and the world at large, right? We talk and the world at large, right? We talk and the world at large, right? We talk about institutional trust and the way about institutional trust and the way about institutional trust and the way people agnostic people agnostic people agnostic the way that they think about Catholic the way that they think about Catholic the way that they think about Catholic or Protestant or Christian as a whole. or Protestant or Christian as a whole. or Protestant or Christian as a whole. And we've got work to do to repair the And we've got work to do to repair the And we've got work to do to repair the the trust that we have with the world in the trust that we have with the world in the trust that we have with the world in the name of Jesus. Um, and that you're the name of Jesus. Um, and that you're the name of Jesus. Um, and that you're so right to summarize it that way that so right to summarize it that way that so right to summarize it that way that it happens through communications. So, it happens through communications. So, it happens through communications. So, we've given you kind of five steps, five we've given you kind of five steps, five we've given you kind of five steps, five principles to to begin repairing that in principles to to begin repairing that in principles to to begin repairing that in your church community, in your town, in your church community, in your town, in your church community, in your town, in your region, um, your region, um, your region, um, in in your team, maybe. And it's my in in your team, maybe. And it's my in in your team, maybe. And it's my view, it's my hope that that work, that view, it's my hope that that work, that view, it's my hope that that work, that if you hear this show and if you accept, if you hear this show and if you accept, if you hear this show and if you accept, okay, this is the work that's before me.

okay, this is the work that's before me. okay, this is the work that's before me. Maybe I didn't Maybe I didn't break the Maybe I didn't Maybe I didn't break the Maybe I didn't Maybe I didn't break the trust, but I belong to this this group trust, but I belong to this this group trust, but I belong to this this group that has fractured trust because of that has fractured trust because of that has fractured trust because of reasons A, B, and C. reasons A, B, and C. reasons A, B, and C. If I accept the work to repair this If I accept the work to repair this If I accept the work to repair this relationship um, by by by being aware relationship um, by by by being aware relationship um, by by by being aware and choosing to communicate these and choosing to communicate these and choosing to communicate these things, by following some of these things, by following some of these things, by following some of these principles, principles, principles, um, it's my view that that could have um, it's my view that that could have um, it's my view that that could have reverberations, like global reverberations, like global reverberations, like global reverberations. Um, reverberations. Um, reverberations. Um, yeah, that that's my true That's my true yeah, that that's my true That's my true yeah, that that's my true That's my true and honest hope. and honest hope. and honest hope. >> There's a reason we end every show like >> There's a reason we end every show like >> There's a reason we end every show like this, because we value it so much. Thank this, because we value it so much. Thank this, because we value it so much. Thank you for your time, your attention, you for your time, your attention, you for your time, your attention, and maybe above all, your trust. We'll and maybe above all, your trust. We'll and maybe above all, your trust. We'll talk to you next week. talk to you next week. talk to you next week. >> first manned mission. Now, they're not >> first manned mission. Now, they're not >> first manned mission. Now, they're not going to the moon. going to the moon. going to the moon. Like they're not putting their feet on Like they're not putting their feet on Like they're not putting their feet on it. it. it. >> Do something interesting for once. >> Do something interesting for once. >> Do something interesting for once. >> It's like what Grayson Rocky did on >> It's like what Grayson Rocky did on >> It's like what Grayson Rocky did on that star. They flew near it.