Alarming Stats About Declining Religion With Ryan Burge

the most religious cities in America are the most religious cities in America are places that you might suspect like places that you might suspect like places that you might suspect like Dallas Houston or Atlanta however Dallas Houston or Atlanta however Dallas Houston or Atlanta however there's a weird inclusion here a city in there's a weird inclusion here a city in there's a weird inclusion here a city in California where close to 30% are California where close to 30% are California where close to 30% are monthly attenders what city is that and monthly attenders what city is that and monthly attenders what city is that and what cities are the least religious in what cities are the least religious in what cities are the least religious in the country to help us all break it down the country to help us all break it down the country to help us all break it down we've got on the show with us today Ryan we've got on the show with us today Ryan we've got on the show with us today Ryan Burj who is the preeminent Source on Burj who is the preeminent Source on Burj who is the preeminent Source on data and Faith so let's dive data and Faith so let's dive data and Faith so let's dive in well hey there and welcome to the pro in well hey there and welcome to the pro in well hey there and welcome to the pro Church tool show we're here to help you Church tool show we're here to help you Church tool show we're here to help you and your church navigate the biggest and your church navigate the biggest and your church navigate the biggest iation shift in 500 years I'm Brady iation shift in 500 years I'm Brady iation shift in 500 years I'm Brady sheer your host I'm joined as always by sheer your host I'm joined as always by sheer your host I'm joined as always by my co-host it's Alexander Mills hello my co-host it's Alexander Mills hello my co-host it's Alexander Mills hello hello and who better to help us make hello and who better to help us make hello and who better to help us make sense of the changing landscape than one sense of the changing landscape than one sense of the changing landscape than one of my absolute favorite sources of data of my absolute favorite sources of data of my absolute favorite sources of data it's Ryan Burge from graphs about it's Ryan Burge from graphs about it's Ryan Burge from graphs about religion Ryan welcome to the show thanks religion Ryan welcome to the show thanks religion Ryan welcome to the show thanks so much for having me BR appreciate it so much for having me BR appreciate it so much for having me BR appreciate it we are thrilled to have you we so we are thrilled to have you we so we are thrilled to have you we so frequently cite you on the show and so frequently cite you on the show and so frequently cite you on the show and so uh to bring you on as the primary source uh to bring you on as the primary source uh to bring you on as the primary source for a lot of what we talk about on a for a lot of what we talk about on a for a lot of what we talk about on a secondary basis is great you recently secondary basis is great you recently secondary basis is great you recently published uh an article that caught my published uh an article that caught my published uh an article that caught my eye roughly about a month ago eye roughly about a month ago eye roughly about a month ago with the title which cities are the with the title which cities are the with the title which cities are the least religious and you kind of kick off least religious and you kind of kick off least religious and you kind of kick off that article with something that I that article with something that I that article with something that I wanted you to help me make sense of wanted you to help me make sense of wanted you to help me make sense of because you say that the United States because you say that the United States because you say that the United States Census Bureau is prohibited from asking Census Bureau is prohibited from asking Census Bureau is prohibited from asking questions about religion on their like questions about religion on their like questions about religion on their like once a decade once a decade once a decade census is that true and if so how do we census is that true and if so how do we census is that true and if so how do we have numbers on this at all yeah so the have numbers on this at all yeah so the have numbers on this at all yeah so the Census Bureau is very um conservative in Census Bureau is very um conservative in Census Bureau is very um conservative in that they don't want to ask any question that they don't want to ask any question that they don't want to ask any question on on there that can potentially be used

on on there that can potentially be used on on there that can potentially be used for something nefarious I guess that the for something nefarious I guess that the for something nefarious I guess that the question that guides them is do we question that guides them is do we question that guides them is do we absolutely have to ask this question or absolutely have to ask this question or absolutely have to ask this question or not and if we don't then we shouldn't not and if we don't then we shouldn't not and if we don't then we shouldn't and so I guess religion is seen as an and so I guess religion is seen as an and so I guess religion is seen as an optional question which I mean for me optional question which I mean for me optional question which I mean for me it's not but for a lot of people it is it's not but for a lot of people it is it's not but for a lot of people it is it's just not part of their you know it's just not part of their you know it's just not part of their you know like core belief or core belonging or like core belief or core belonging or like core belief or core belonging or core whoever they are so questions like core whoever they are so questions like core whoever they are so questions like race you know number of children income race you know number of children income race you know number of children income education those are sort of meaningful education those are sort of meaningful education those are sort of meaningful from a governmental standpoint for from a governmental standpoint for from a governmental standpoint for things like grants and Aid know whereing things like grants and Aid know whereing things like grants and Aid know whereing where the money needs to go where the money needs to go where the money needs to go infrastructure things like that so the infrastructure things like that so the infrastructure things like that so the Census Bureau since 1976 has been Census Bureau since 1976 has been Census Bureau since 1976 has been prohibited from asking about religion on prohibited from asking about religion on prohibited from asking about religion on the denal the denal is the big one the denal the denal is the big one the denal the denal is the big one that's the one that we use to count that's the one that we use to count that's the one that we use to count people for apportionment for you know people for apportionment for you know people for apportionment for you know Congress House of Representatives now Congress House of Representatives now Congress House of Representatives now what's nice about the Census Bureau is what's nice about the Census Bureau is what's nice about the Census Bureau is they don't just do the denial they do they don't just do the denial they do they don't just do the denial they do all these other surveys too once called all these other surveys too once called all these other surveys too once called the American Community survey and the the American Community survey and the the American Community survey and the one that I got a hold of was called the one that I got a hold of was called the one that I got a hold of was called the household poll survey which is brand new household poll survey which is brand new household poll survey which is brand new they just rolled it out last year and they just rolled it out last year and they just rolled it out last year and and on the household poll survey they and on the household poll survey they and on the household poll survey they can ask about things that are more can ask about things that are more can ask about things that are more ancillary so things like mental health ancillary so things like mental health ancillary so things like mental health things like how much you go to church things like how much you go to church things like how much you go to church all kinds of not you know not that core all kinds of not you know not that core all kinds of not you know not that core is the denal this is like an additional is the denal this is like an additional is the denal this is like an additional product and the goal is to collect it product and the goal is to collect it product and the goal is to collect it quick and disseminate it quickly so that quick and disseminate it quickly so that quick and disseminate it quickly so that stakeholders can really understand stakeholders can really understand stakeholders can really understand what's going on the ground right now not what's going on the ground right now not what's going on the ground right now not two or three or four years ago two or three or four years ago two or three or four years ago understood and so you Ed that data to understood and so you Ed that data to understood and so you Ed that data to compile uh one of the graphs and it compile uh one of the graphs and it compile uh one of the graphs and it basically had the top as the the least basically had the top as the the least basically had the top as the the least religious cities the top two were San religious cities the top two were San religious cities the top two were San Francisco and Seattle which I you know

Francisco and Seattle which I you know Francisco and Seattle which I you know probably don't come as a a huge surprise probably don't come as a a huge surprise probably don't come as a a huge surprise to most people watching and listening in to most people watching and listening in to most people watching and listening in both cases for those cities about seven both cases for those cities about seven both cases for those cities about seven in 10 adults are attending religious in 10 adults are attending religious in 10 adults are attending religious Services less than once a year you said Services less than once a year you said Services less than once a year you said that San Francisco probably takes the that San Francisco probably takes the that San Francisco probably takes the crown for most secular if you had to crown for most secular if you had to crown for most secular if you had to choose between the two because just 12% choose between the two because just 12% choose between the two because just 12% of folks in that City are attending of folks in that City are attending of folks in that City are attending church at least once a month the most church at least once a month the most church at least once a month the most religious cities on the other side of religious cities on the other side of religious cities on the other side of the equation Dallas Houston Atlanta and the equation Dallas Houston Atlanta and the equation Dallas Houston Atlanta and then one weird Edition then one weird Edition then one weird Edition Riverside California where nearly 3 in Riverside California where nearly 3 in Riverside California where nearly 3 in 10 folks living in that metropolitan 10 folks living in that metropolitan 10 folks living in that metropolitan area are monthly attenders do we have area are monthly attenders do we have area are monthly attenders do we have any explanation because I do not any explanation because I do not any explanation because I do not consider California top of my list when consider California top of my list when consider California top of my list when I think about highly religious cities I think about highly religious cities I think about highly religious cities why Riverside California snuck their way why Riverside California snuck their way why Riverside California snuck their way into that that list so someone emailed into that that list so someone emailed into that that list so someone emailed me about this this is what always fun me about this this is what always fun me about this this is what always fun writing a post because then you get writing a post because then you get writing a post because then you get emails like here I can explain this to emails like here I can explain this to emails like here I can explain this to you and I'm like okay uh B universities you and I'm like okay uh B universities you and I'm like okay uh B universities in Riverside in the Riverside metro area in Riverside in the Riverside metro area in Riverside in the Riverside metro area which is a large you know CHR and which is a large you know CHR and which is a large you know CHR and apparently there's like it's not just apparently there's like it's not just apparently there's like it's not just the the ing the Seminary there's like the the ing the Seminary there's like the the ing the Seminary there's like you know it has all this ancillary you know it has all this ancillary you know it has all this ancillary benefits religiously to the local benefits religiously to the local benefits religiously to the local community the other thing that I've been community the other thing that I've been community the other thing that I've been told by numerous people is there's a lot told by numerous people is there's a lot told by numerous people is there's a lot of Hispanic Catholics uh in that part of of Hispanic Catholics uh in that part of of Hispanic Catholics uh in that part of California so it's probably a both and California so it's probably a both and California so it's probably a both and thing it's probably the Catholic thing thing it's probably the Catholic thing thing it's probably the Catholic thing it's probably VI University and honestly it's probably VI University and honestly it's probably VI University and honestly California is probably more religious California is probably more religious California is probably more religious than a lot of people think it is there's than a lot of people think it is there's than a lot of people think it is there's this great book called from Bible Belt this great book called from Bible Belt this great book called from Bible Belt to Sun Belt by Darren do doic I think to Sun Belt by Darren do doic I think to Sun Belt by Darren do doic I think that was written maybe five or 10 years that was written maybe five or 10 years that was written maybe five or 10 years ago that basically explains like how ago that basically explains like how ago that basically explains like how evangelicals move from the Bible Belt evangelicals move from the Bible Belt evangelicals move from the Bible Belt the way we understand it today out west the way we understand it today out west the way we understand it today out west um really kind of facing like the new um really kind of facing like the new um really kind of facing like the new economy that's going on out there so

economy that's going on out there so economy that's going on out there so think about guys like Rick Warren or think about guys like Rick Warren or think about guys like Rick Warren or John MacArthur right they're both John MacArthur right they're both John MacArthur right they're both California guys a lot of there's a lot California guys a lot of there's a lot California guys a lot of there's a lot of growing churches in Southern of growing churches in Southern of growing churches in Southern California because there's a lot of California because there's a lot of California because there's a lot of people moving or were at least moving to people moving or were at least moving to people moving or were at least moving to Southern California so I don't think Southern California so I don't think Southern California so I don't think California like Southern California California like Southern California California like Southern California especially is as irreligious as we think especially is as irreligious as we think especially is as irreligious as we think it is I think a lot of us think of like it is I think a lot of us think of like it is I think a lot of us think of like for instance like the San Francisco Bay for instance like the San Francisco Bay for instance like the San Francisco Bay area and go they're not and they're not area and go they're not and they're not area and go they're not and they're not they're not very religious but other they're not very religious but other they're not very religious but other parts of California like the Inland parts of California like the Inland parts of California like the Inland Empire you know like s Bernardino moving Empire you know like s Bernardino moving Empire you know like s Bernardino moving like in in inside California away from like in in inside California away from like in in inside California away from the coast it actually is pretty the coast it actually is pretty the coast it actually is pretty conservative culturally and it's more conservative culturally and it's more conservative culturally and it's more religious so California is a huge State religious so California is a huge State religious so California is a huge State man like think about like San Diego to man like think about like San Diego to man like think about like San Diego to Sacramento and you got big sir and Sacramento and you got big sir and Sacramento and you got big sir and you've got mountains in desert and ocean you've got mountains in desert and ocean you've got mountains in desert and ocean and beaches and it's hard to put it's and beaches and it's hard to put it's and beaches and it's hard to put it's hard to conceptualize California with hard to conceptualize California with hard to conceptualize California with one one one metric yeah that's so informative Ryan I metric yeah that's so informative Ryan I metric yeah that's so informative Ryan I was just listening to John marer talk was just listening to John marer talk was just listening to John marer talk this week and he was talking about uh this week and he was talking about uh this week and he was talking about uh Portland and how he spent a lot of his Portland and how he spent a lot of his Portland and how he spent a lot of his life working and and pastoring in life working and and pastoring in life working and and pastoring in Portland and now he lives in LA and he Portland and now he lives in LA and he Portland and now he lives in LA and he said like La famously they refer to said like La famously they refer to said like La famously they refer to themselves as as Babylon but he says La themselves as as Babylon but he says La themselves as as Babylon but he says La is like is like the promised land is like is like the promised land is like is like the promised land compared to Portland like just it's it's compared to Portland like just it's it's compared to Portland like just it's it's a way more religious way more Christian a way more religious way more Christian a way more religious way more Christian landscape than than Portland but you landscape than than Portland but you landscape than than Portland but you just touched on on two things about just touched on on two things about just touched on on two things about California specifically in the context California specifically in the context California specifically in the context of Riverside you talked about um of Riverside you talked about um of Riverside you talked about um education in in the university and then education in in the university and then education in in the university and then there's a racial component as well what there's a racial component as well what there's a racial component as well what correlations do you think we can draw correlations do you think we can draw correlations do you think we can draw between Church attendance and things between Church attendance and things between Church attendance and things like that like um race education income like that like um race education income like that like um race education income age yeah so actually comparing Portland

age yeah so actually comparing Portland age yeah so actually comparing Portland and La is actually kind of instructive and La is actually kind of instructive and La is actually kind of instructive in that way too because Portland is a in that way too because Portland is a in that way too because Portland is a whole lot of really educated white whole lot of really educated white whole lot of really educated white people um in Seattle's the same way people um in Seattle's the same way people um in Seattle's the same way largely uh with an Asian population sort largely uh with an Asian population sort largely uh with an Asian population sort of sprinkled in La has a much is a much of sprinkled in La has a much is a much of sprinkled in La has a much is a much more Blue Collar city uh and a lot more more Blue Collar city uh and a lot more more Blue Collar city uh and a lot more Hispanics and African-Americans and I Hispanics and African-Americans and I Hispanics and African-Americans and I think that kind of like shows you think that kind of like shows you think that kind of like shows you racially like what in the world's going racially like what in the world's going racially like what in the world's going on there if you look at education and on there if you look at education and on there if you look at education and this is one thing I I tweet about this this is one thing I I tweet about this this is one thing I I tweet about this like I should almost put it like in my like I should almost put it like in my like I should almost put it like in my tweet deck just to go out every 3 or 4 tweet deck just to go out every 3 or 4 tweet deck just to go out every 3 or 4 months the relationship between months the relationship between months the relationship between education and attendance the more education and attendance the more education and attendance the more educated you are the more likely you are educated you are the more likely you are educated you are the more likely you are to attend religious services like that's to attend religious services like that's to attend religious services like that's just a fact I mean it's it shows up and just a fact I mean it's it shows up and just a fact I mean it's it shows up and I've tested that every possible way and I've tested that every possible way and I've tested that every possible way and there is absolutely no data that there is absolutely no data that there is absolutely no data that indicates the more educated you are the indicates the more educated you are the indicates the more educated you are the less likely you are to go to church that less likely you are to go to church that less likely you are to go to church that is just completely empirically false and is just completely empirically false and is just completely empirically false and I actually look in that in that piece I actually look in that in that piece I actually look in that in that piece about the most religious cities trying about the most religious cities trying about the most religious cities trying to figure out you know what are factors to figure out you know what are factors to figure out you know what are factors that lead to um higher or lower levels that lead to um higher or lower levels that lead to um higher or lower levels of attendance and education in in of attendance and education in in of attendance and education in in metropolitan areas is not that strongly metropolitan areas is not that strongly metropolitan areas is not that strongly related but in the general public it's related but in the general public it's related but in the general public it's incredibly positively related and now incredibly positively related and now incredibly positively related and now race white people are a lot less race white people are a lot less race white people are a lot less religious than non-white people and I religious than non-white people and I religious than non-white people and I think that's something that we all need think that's something that we all need think that's something that we all need to come to grips with is if you look at to come to grips with is if you look at to come to grips with is if you look at it consistently if you look at like the it consistently if you look at like the it consistently if you look at like the last 50 years the share of Americans who last 50 years the share of Americans who last 50 years the share of Americans who are Christians is declined by 25 points are Christians is declined by 25 points are Christians is declined by 25 points or so between 1972 and or so between 1972 and or so between 1972 and 2022 but amongst uh the share of 2022 but amongst uh the share of 2022 but amongst uh the share of Americans who are non-white Christians Americans who are non-white Christians Americans who are non-white Christians was 16% in 1972 it's 177% today so the was 16% in 1972 it's 177% today so the was 16% in 1972 it's 177% today so the entirety of the drop in Christianity in entirety of the drop in Christianity in entirety of the drop in Christianity in America is among white people white America is among white people white America is among white people white Christianity is declining so we're Christianity is declining so we're Christianity is declining so we're seeing you know the rise in in black

seeing you know the rise in in black seeing you know the rise in in black Christians and Hispanic Christians and Christians and Hispanic Christians and Christians and Hispanic Christians and Asian Christians white Christianity is Asian Christians white Christianity is Asian Christians white Christianity is sort of it's fading and I you know sort of it's fading and I you know sort of it's fading and I you know Robbie Jones wrote a book about this the Robbie Jones wrote a book about this the Robbie Jones wrote a book about this the end of white Christian America and he's end of white Christian America and he's end of white Christian America and he's largely right Christianity is not fading largely right Christianity is not fading largely right Christianity is not fading white Christianity is fading especially white Christianity is fading especially white Christianity is fading especially in major metropolitan areas and even in in major metropolitan areas and even in in major metropolitan areas and even in the South by the way it's not like the South by the way it's not like the South by the way it's not like Dallas is some Bastion virtue you know Dallas is some Bastion virtue you know Dallas is some Bastion virtue you know if you look at the data almost half of if you look at the data almost half of if you look at the data almost half of people living in Dallas go to church people living in Dallas go to church people living in Dallas go to church less than once year only 28% go 12 times less than once year only 28% go 12 times less than once year only 28% go 12 times or more a year so even amongst the most or more a year so even amongst the most or more a year so even amongst the most religious quote unquote big cities it's religious quote unquote big cities it's religious quote unquote big cities it's not really that religious either and a not really that religious either and a not really that religious either and a lot of that to with Dallas by the way lot of that to with Dallas by the way lot of that to with Dallas by the way the reason they score so highly is the reason they score so highly is the reason they score so highly is because they have such a large because they have such a large because they have such a large African-American and Hispanic population African-American and Hispanic population African-American and Hispanic population um probably more so than being in the um probably more so than being in the um probably more so than being in the South yeah so that flies in the face I South yeah so that flies in the face I South yeah so that flies in the face I I'm sensing uh with so many of the I'm sensing uh with so many of the I'm sensing uh with so many of the popular conceptions of the landscape of popular conceptions of the landscape of popular conceptions of the landscape of faith in North America we're here in faith in North America we're here in faith in North America we're here in Canada um Ryan so we kind of like to Canada um Ryan so we kind of like to Canada um Ryan so we kind of like to like you know sneak ourselves in um like you know sneak ourselves in um like you know sneak ourselves in um every as a side note I got a DM this every as a side note I got a DM this every as a side note I got a DM this morning from someone they're like hey morning from someone they're like hey morning from someone they're like hey hey um you have any like data from hey um you have any like data from hey um you have any like data from Canada and I was like ah I right any Canada and I was like ah I right any Canada and I was like ah I right any thoughts that I can share with thoughts that I can share with thoughts that I can share with them there is there's something called them there is there's something called them there is there's something called the Canadian Social Survey I I have it the Canadian Social Survey I I have it the Canadian Social Survey I I have it some it absolute exactly pain in the some it absolute exactly pain in the some it absolute exactly pain in the butt I'm not going to lie like the way butt I'm not going to lie like the way butt I'm not going to lie like the way that Canada deals with data is like that Canada deals with data is like that Canada deals with data is like you're handling like Bitcoin or you're handling like Bitcoin or you're handling like Bitcoin or something like you to give them like a something like you to give them like a something like you to give them like a drop of blood and your affiliation and drop of blood and your affiliation and drop of blood and your affiliation and like a photo ID and like what are you like a photo ID and like what are you like a photo ID and like what are you going to use this data for going to use this data for going to use this data for and they anonymize it to a level that's and they anonymize it to a level that's and they anonymize it to a level that's like unbelievable like Americans like we like unbelievable like Americans like we like unbelievable like Americans like we don't have a whole lot of data privacy don't have a whole lot of data privacy don't have a whole lot of data privacy in this country which actually works in

in this country which actually works in in this country which actually works in my benefit big time uh other countries my benefit big time uh other countries my benefit big time uh other countries like Europe's really like has a much like Europe's really like has a much like Europe's really like has a much higher level and can Canada kind of higher level and can Canada kind of higher level and can Canada kind of follows the European model so there is follows the European model so there is follows the European model so there is data on on Canadians out there uh data on on Canadians out there uh data on on Canadians out there uh there's a guy named David speed there's a guy named David speed there's a guy named David speed Professor David speed who does work on Professor David speed who does work on Professor David speed who does work on Canadian specifically Canadian religion Canadian specifically Canadian religion Canadian specifically Canadian religion but that is that is most certainly not but that is that is most certainly not but that is that is most certainly not my specialty I I'm I I say my specialty I I'm I I say my specialty I I'm I I say unapologetically I'm an americanist I unapologetically I'm an americanist I unapologetically I'm an americanist I study American religion I think American study American religion I think American study American religion I think American religion is the most unique religion in religion is the most unique religion in religion is the most unique religion in the world because we're so incredibly the world because we're so incredibly the world because we're so incredibly educated and economically prosperous yet educated and economically prosperous yet educated and economically prosperous yet we're so incredibly religious at the we're so incredibly religious at the we're so incredibly religious at the same time we don't look at all like same time we don't look at all like same time we don't look at all like Europe or Australia or Canada um when we Europe or Australia or Canada um when we Europe or Australia or Canada um when we really should in a lot of metrics we really should in a lot of metrics we really should in a lot of metrics we don't on religion so the bad thing about don't on religion so the bad thing about don't on religion so the bad thing about what I do is well the good thing what I what I do is well the good thing what I what I do is well the good thing what I do is I have a huge audience you know do is I have a huge audience you know do is I have a huge audience you know 340 million people live in America and 340 million people live in America and 340 million people live in America and how many more people are interested in how many more people are interested in how many more people are interested in what's going on in America on top of the what's going on in America on top of the what's going on in America on top of the 340 million the downside is I never get 340 million the downside is I never get 340 million the downside is I never get invited to leave the country like you invited to leave the country like you invited to leave the country like you know I do tons of speaking events and know I do tons of speaking events and know I do tons of speaking events and things like that I have never ever been things like that I have never ever been things like that I have never ever been invited to give a speech or a talk invited to give a speech or a talk invited to give a speech or a talk outside the United States so I don't outside the United States so I don't outside the United States so I don't like to fly anyway so I kind of consider like to fly anyway so I kind of consider like to fly anyway so I kind of consider that to be a wash at the end of the day that to be a wash at the end of the day that to be a wash at the end of the day but it just shows you like how unique but it just shows you like how unique but it just shows you like how unique American religion is compared to other American religion is compared to other American religion is compared to other religions in the world okay so I'll spin religions in the world okay so I'll spin religions in the world okay so I'll spin this in a virtuous way in response to this in a virtuous way in response to this in a virtuous way in response to that DM like hey you know what there that DM like hey you know what there that DM like hey you know what there isn't a ton of great data but it's isn't a ton of great data but it's isn't a ton of great data but it's because our great country cares so much because our great country cares so much because our great country cares so much about your privacy relative to our about your privacy relative to our about your privacy relative to our neighbors to the South so I just want to neighbors to the South so I just want to neighbors to the South so I just want to make sure I didn't miss something you make sure I didn't miss something you make sure I didn't miss something you said that there is no correlation said that there is no correlation said that there is no correlation between higher levels of education and between higher levels of education and between higher levels of education and then decreased Church attendance yeah so then decreased Church attendance yeah so then decreased Church attendance yeah so in this data that looks just at Major

in this data that looks just at Major in this data that looks just at Major metropolitan areas the relationship metropolitan areas the relationship metropolitan areas the relationship between education and attendance is between education and attendance is between education and attendance is basically no relationship so more basically no relationship so more basically no relationship so more educated doesn't lead to higher levels educated doesn't lead to higher levels educated doesn't lead to higher levels of attendance or low level if you look of attendance or low level if you look of attendance or low level if you look at a general sample so like everybody in at a general sample so like everybody in at a general sample so like everybody in America randomly selected the America randomly selected the America randomly selected the relationship between education and relationship between education and relationship between education and attendance is positive meaning the more attendance is positive meaning the more attendance is positive meaning the more educated you are the more like you you educated you are the more like you you educated you are the more like you you are to attend religious Services weekly are to attend religious Services weekly are to attend religious Services weekly and I've looked at that and if you look and I've looked at that and if you look and I've looked at that and if you look at like um the share of people who are at like um the share of people who are at like um the share of people who are nuns the group that's the most likely to nuns the group that's the most likely to nuns the group that's the most likely to be nuns are those with high school be nuns are those with high school be nuns are those with high school diplomas or less the share of the diplomas or less the share of the diplomas or less the share of the educational level where you're the least educational level where you're the least educational level where you're the least likely to be a nun is having a master's likely to be a nun is having a master's likely to be a nun is having a master's degree uh only 21% of people with degree uh only 21% of people with degree uh only 21% of people with master's degrees are nuns it's over 35% master's degrees are nuns it's over 35% master's degrees are nuns it's over 35% of people without a high school diploma of people without a high school diploma of people without a high school diploma so the the only thing where it works the so the the only thing where it works the so the the only thing where it works the other direction is belief people with other direction is belief people with other direction is belief people with higher levels of Education are less higher levels of Education are less higher levels of Education are less likely to say they have a certain belief likely to say they have a certain belief likely to say they have a certain belief in God which actually kind of tracks if in God which actually kind of tracks if in God which actually kind of tracks if you really look what education does you you really look what education does you you really look what education does you know it makes you question everything know it makes you question everything know it makes you question everything and really be more empirically rigorous and really be more empirically rigorous and really be more empirically rigorous and so that that does track so of the we and so that that does track so of the we and so that that does track so of the we call it Behavior belief and belonging call it Behavior belief and belonging call it Behavior belief and belonging belief is the only one where education belief is the only one where education belief is the only one where education is negatively related amongst belonging is negatively related amongst belonging is negatively related amongst belonging in belief um I'm sorry belonging in in belief um I'm sorry belonging in in belief um I'm sorry belonging in Behavior it's positively related more Behavior it's positively related more Behavior it's positively related more educated more likely you are to belong educated more likely you are to belong educated more likely you are to belong to a religious group and more likely you to a religious group and more likely you to a religious group and more likely you are to attend religious Services weekly are to attend religious Services weekly are to attend religious Services weekly I I just feel like this is so opposite I I just feel like this is so opposite I I just feel like this is so opposite to to the popular notion that you know to to the popular notion that you know to to the popular notion that you know once you actually get some good once you actually get some good once you actually get some good education you'll come to the clear education you'll come to the clear education you'll come to the clear conclusion that faith in you know a sky

conclusion that faith in you know a sky conclusion that faith in you know a sky daddy is extremely extremely um daddy is extremely extremely um daddy is extremely extremely um Elementary and and yet what what do you Elementary and and yet what what do you Elementary and and yet what what do you take from that is that like the Dunning take from that is that like the Dunning take from that is that like the Dunning Krueger effect in Reverse like the more Krueger effect in Reverse like the more Krueger effect in Reverse like the more you know the real you realize how little you know the real you realize how little you know the real you realize how little you know and you become more open to a you know and you become more open to a you know and you become more open to a higher power sort of thing yeah so this higher power sort of thing yeah so this higher power sort of thing yeah so this is actually part of a lar larger is actually part of a lar larger is actually part of a lar larger argument that like I always tell people argument that like I always tell people argument that like I always tell people like I don't think about Rel the same like I don't think about Rel the same like I don't think about Rel the same way you probably think about religion way you probably think about religion way you probably think about religion because I think about it from a social because I think about it from a social because I think about it from a social science when I say like are you science when I say like are you science when I say like are you religious I think the average person religious I think the average person religious I think the average person goes okay do I believe in God like goes okay do I believe in God like goes okay do I believe in God like that's the that's theistic and and from that's the that's theistic and and from that's the that's theistic and and from a social science perspective I honestly a social science perspective I honestly a social science perspective I honestly think of The Three Bs Behavior belief think of The Three Bs Behavior belief think of The Three Bs Behavior belief and belonging belief is the least and belonging belief is the least and belonging belief is the least important like I really just don't think important like I really just don't think important like I really just don't think it Mo plus most people really don't know it Mo plus most people really don't know it Mo plus most people really don't know what they believe anyway if you really what they believe anyway if you really what they believe anyway if you really start digging through the data it's like start digging through the data it's like start digging through the data it's like it they don't know like about angels and it they don't know like about angels and it they don't know like about angels and demons and Heaven and Hell like lots and demons and Heaven and Hell like lots and demons and Heaven and Hell like lots and lotss of people don't believe in hell lotss of people don't believe in hell lotss of people don't believe in hell but believe in heaven and then you ask but believe in heaven and then you ask but believe in heaven and then you ask them if there's only one way to go to them if there's only one way to go to them if there's only one way to go to heaven they're like not really even heaven they're like not really even heaven they're like not really even among evangelicals by the way the among evangelicals by the way the among evangelicals by the way the numbers like who are exclusivist are numbers like who are exclusivist are numbers like who are exclusivist are very small so the way I think about it very small so the way I think about it very small so the way I think about it is this religion I would post about this is this religion I would post about this is this religion I would post about this in my subsag last year called religion in my subsag last year called religion in my subsag last year called religion is a luxury good religion has become a is a luxury good religion has become a is a luxury good religion has become a luxury good for people who did luxury good for people who did luxury good for people who did everything quote unquote right in life everything quote unquote right in life everything quote unquote right in life what do I mean by that college degree what do I mean by that college degree what do I mean by that college degree middle class income Married with middle class income Married with middle class income Married with Children if you do those things you are Children if you do those things you are Children if you do those things you are significantly more likely to be part of significantly more likely to be part of significantly more likely to be part of a religious congregation and that's a religious congregation and that's a religious congregation and that's because you're more likely to be kind of because you're more likely to be kind of because you're more likely to be kind of plugged into all facets plugged into all facets plugged into all facets of society right and and religion is at of society right and and religion is at of society right and and religion is at its core is an institution it's a social its core is an institution it's a social its core is an institution it's a social Enterprise and so what educated people Enterprise and so what educated people Enterprise and so what educated people have is higher levels of trust have is higher levels of trust have is higher levels of trust institutional trust and interpersonal

institutional trust and interpersonal institutional trust and interpersonal trust which means like I don't think the trust which means like I don't think the trust which means like I don't think the person down the road is going to punch person down the road is going to punch person down the road is going to punch me in the face and steal all my stuff so me in the face and steal all my stuff so me in the face and steal all my stuff so if you're going to be part of a if you're going to be part of a if you're going to be part of a religious group you've got to trust the religious group you've got to trust the religious group you've got to trust the people the leaders the church the people the leaders the church the people the leaders the church the congregation you got to trust everyone congregation you got to trust everyone congregation you got to trust everyone there and what we know is there's a there and what we know is there's a there and what we know is there's a really strong relationship between really strong relationship between really strong relationship between education and Trust more educated you education and Trust more educated you education and Trust more educated you are the more Trust trusting you are of are the more Trust trusting you are of are the more Trust trusting you are of other people and institutions so I think other people and institutions so I think other people and institutions so I think it's there's a growing number of people it's there's a growing number of people it's there's a growing number of people who have dropped out who have opted out who have dropped out who have opted out who have dropped out who have opted out of American society but there's still a of American society but there's still a of American society but there's still a core of people in America who realize core of people in America who realize core of people in America who realize and by the way here's the thing that I and by the way here's the thing that I and by the way here's the thing that I think we miss is this the people who are think we miss is this the people who are think we miss is this the people who are coming to church on Sunday are not the coming to church on Sunday are not the coming to church on Sunday are not the people who are like I'm 100% right and people who are like I'm 100% right and people who are like I'm 100% right and you're 100% wrong I Jesus is the way the you're 100% wrong I Jesus is the way the you're 100% wrong I Jesus is the way the truth and the life they're going because truth and the life they're going because truth and the life they're going because they realize the social benefit now they they realize the social benefit now they they realize the social benefit now they like the Jesus part too probably but like the Jesus part too probably but like the Jesus part too probably but they also enjoy the social benefit of they also enjoy the social benefit of they also enjoy the social benefit of being a part of a community of people being a part of a community of people being a part of a community of people who all kind of like-minded and who all kind of like-minded and who all kind of like-minded and similarly valued they got places for similarly valued they got places for similarly valued they got places for their kids to go right because you got their kids to go right because you got their kids to go right because you got the youth ministry you got the the youth ministry you got the the youth ministry you got the children's church you got activities children's church you got activities children's church you got activities going on at the church all the time you going on at the church all the time you going on at the church all the time you got this if I need someone to babysit I got this if I need someone to babysit I got this if I need someone to babysit I can call someone from the church same can call someone from the church same can call someone from the church same thing you know it works reciprocally thing you know it works reciprocally thing you know it works reciprocally like I think a lot of people with like I think a lot of people with like I think a lot of people with education realize the tremendous value education realize the tremendous value education realize the tremendous value that comes from the social connections that comes from the social connections that comes from the social connections and I think people who don't trust drop and I think people who don't trust drop and I think people who don't trust drop out and they trust less so they drop out out and they trust less so they drop out out and they trust less so they drop out so it becomes this downward spiral for a so it becomes this downward spiral for a so it becomes this downward spiral for a lot of them so I think we're seeing a lot of them so I think we're seeing a lot of them so I think we're seeing a smaller smaller group of halves and a smaller smaller group of halves and a smaller smaller group of halves and a growing number of Have Nots so that's growing number of Have Nots so that's growing number of Have Nots so that's when I think about education like that's when I think about education like that's when I think about education like that's the way I conceptualize it is more more the way I conceptualize it is more more the way I conceptualize it is more more than just like gaining head knowledge than just like gaining head knowledge than just like gaining head knowledge it's gaining social intelligence at the it's gaining social intelligence at the it's gaining social intelligence at the same time and valuing community and same time and valuing community and same time and valuing community and trusting other people okay that tracks

trusting other people okay that tracks trusting other people okay that tracks so in the metropolitan areas data you so in the metropolitan areas data you so in the metropolitan areas data you noted that a white person is less likely noted that a white person is less likely noted that a white person is less likely to attend religious Services compared to to attend religious Services compared to to attend religious Services compared to a person of color is that also true you a person of color is that also true you a person of color is that also true you know genp broadly across the whole know genp broadly across the whole know genp broadly across the whole country it is yep white people are the country it is yep white people are the country it is yep white people are the so among white people are the most so among white people are the most so among white people are the most likely to be nuns right now actually likely to be nuns right now actually likely to be nuns right now actually when they leave religion they're when they leave religion they're when they leave religion they're actually the most likely to become actually the most likely to become actually the most likely to become atheists or agnostics too so when they atheists or agnostics too so when they atheists or agnostics too so when they leave they leave further if that makes leave they leave further if that makes leave they leave further if that makes any sense like they like there's a group any sense like they like there's a group any sense like they like there's a group called nothing in particular which is called nothing in particular which is called nothing in particular which is kind of like I call it the way station kind of like I call it the way station kind of like I call it the way station like the transfer station between like the transfer station between like the transfer station between religion and no religion like when black religion and no religion like when black religion and no religion like when black people leave religion about 90% of them people leave religion about 90% of them people leave religion about 90% of them are nothing in particular when white are nothing in particular when white are nothing in particular when white people leave religion only 60% of them people leave religion only 60% of them people leave religion only 60% of them are nothing in particular 20% are are nothing in particular 20% are are nothing in particular 20% are atheists and 20% are agnostics so what atheists and 20% are agnostics so what atheists and 20% are agnostics so what you kind of see here is that like a lot you kind of see here is that like a lot you kind of see here is that like a lot of white people are going I'm done bye of white people are going I'm done bye of white people are going I'm done bye and if you look at like if you tangle up and if you look at like if you tangle up and if you look at like if you tangle up politics in this whole thing it really politics in this whole thing it really politics in this whole thing it really is like white Liberals are really really is like white Liberals are really really is like white Liberals are really really anti-religion much more than black anti-religion much more than black anti-religion much more than black liberals Hispanic liberals so it's this liberals Hispanic liberals so it's this liberals Hispanic liberals so it's this kind of combination of like if you kind of combination of like if you kind of combination of like if you conceptualize in your head the person conceptualize in your head the person conceptualize in your head the person working in San Francisco right now working in San Francisco right now working in San Francisco right now that's the person that hates religion that's the person that hates religion that's the person that hates religion the most you know it's like white the most you know it's like white the most you know it's like white educated upper income Tech worker no educated upper income Tech worker no educated upper income Tech worker no kids two dogs you know it those are the kids two dogs you know it those are the kids two dogs you know it those are the kind of people who are W they're walking kind of people who are W they're walking kind of people who are W they're walking away from all the traditional quote away from all the traditional quote away from all the traditional quote unquote values in American life like unquote values in American life like unquote values in American life like marriage and family and the white picket marriage and family and the white picket marriage and family and the white picket fence they were rejecting all those fence they were rejecting all those fence they were rejecting all those things and religion is part and parcel things and religion is part and parcel things and religion is part and parcel of that so I think it's just heightened

of that so I think it's just heightened of that so I think it's just heightened in a lot of these metropolitan areas in a lot of these metropolitan areas in a lot of these metropolitan areas where it's like they've sort of walk so where it's like they've sort of walk so where it's like they've sort of walk so far away from the traditional way that far away from the traditional way that far away from the traditional way that we've understood American life and are we've understood American life and are we've understood American life and are choosing to go a different way entirely choosing to go a different way entirely choosing to go a different way entirely and then it's always you know cautionary and then it's always you know cautionary and then it's always you know cautionary you don't want to pull too much from you don't want to pull too much from you don't want to pull too much from from data and infer that it's clearly from data and infer that it's clearly from data and infer that it's clearly saying one thing or another saying one thing or another saying one thing or another but the other you know more but the other you know more but the other you know more straightforward thing that you pulled straightforward thing that you pulled straightforward thing that you pulled from this data of the metropolitan areas from this data of the metropolitan areas from this data of the metropolitan areas was okay look older folks go to church was okay look older folks go to church was okay look older folks go to church more than Young Folks which I presume is more than Young Folks which I presume is more than Young Folks which I presume is also true Countrywide oh yeah I mean also true Countrywide oh yeah I mean also true Countrywide oh yeah I mean there's a huge age gradient when it there's a huge age gradient when it there's a huge age gradient when it comes to religion older people now but comes to religion older people now but comes to religion older people now but this is this is a really important point this is this is a really important point this is this is a really important point and I I wrote a wrote a book called 20 and I I wrote a wrote a book called 20 and I I wrote a wrote a book called 20 myths about religion and politics in myths about religion and politics in myths about religion and politics in America and one of the chapters was the America and one of the chapters was the America and one of the chapters was the myth is that people become more myth is that people become more myth is that people become more religious as they age that is that is religious as they age that is that is religious as they age that is that is not what happens actually if you look at not what happens actually if you look at not what happens actually if you look at almost every birth cohort which are like almost every birth cohort which are like almost every birth cohort which are like 5year Windows like 1940 to 1944 1945 to 5year Windows like 1940 to 1944 1945 to 5year Windows like 1940 to 1944 1945 to 1949 all the way through and you look at 1949 all the way through and you look at 1949 all the way through and you look at their weekly attendance in 2008 versus their weekly attendance in 2008 versus their weekly attendance in 2008 versus today it's down so like even older today it's down so like even older today it's down so like even older people are going to church less than people are going to church less than people are going to church less than that same cohort was 15 years ago so that same cohort was 15 years ago so that same cohort was 15 years ago so there's this there's this thing that there's this there's this thing that there's this there's this thing that happened this this this social science happened this this this social science happened this this this social science thing that happens that I think most thing that happens that I think most thing that happens that I think most people aren't aware of but really need people aren't aware of but really need people aren't aware of but really need to be aware of so people like whenever to be aware of so people like whenever to be aware of so people like whenever we had little we had we have we have we had little we had we have we have we had little we had we have we have kids are 12 and N now at one point they kids are 12 and N now at one point they kids are 12 and N now at one point they were babies obviously we had car seats were babies obviously we had car seats were babies obviously we had car seats and I remember like every older person and I remember like every older person and I remember like every older person in my church seeing the car seat and in my church seeing the car seat and in my church seeing the car seat and going back in my day we just threw you going back in my day we just threw you going back in my day we just threw you in the back seat and threw the seat belt in the back seat and threw the seat belt in the back seat and threw the seat belt on if you were lucky and we all turned on if you were lucky and we all turned on if you were lucky and we all turned out fine and the response to that is out fine and the response to that is out fine and the response to that is very simple it's like no not everyone very simple it's like no not everyone very simple it's like no not everyone turned out fine because the ones you

turned out fine because the ones you turned out fine because the ones you that did not turn out fine are dead and that did not turn out fine are dead and that did not turn out fine are dead and you can't talk to them so it's called you can't talk to them so it's called you can't talk to them so it's called survivorship bias you only see the survivorship bias you only see the survivorship bias you only see the people that are still there and so what people that are still there and so what people that are still there and so what the way this works in church is you look the way this works in church is you look the way this works in church is you look around and see a bunch of gray-haired around and see a bunch of gray-haired around and see a bunch of gray-haired people and go oh people must be coming people and go oh people must be coming people and go oh people must be coming back to church as they age back to church as they age back to church as they age you don't see the people who aren't you don't see the people who aren't you don't see the people who aren't there because they're not there so a lot there because they're not there so a lot there because they're not there so a lot of people there used to be a whole lot of people there used to be a whole lot of people there used to be a whole lot of people in that that cohort and now of people in that that cohort and now of people in that that cohort and now some of them have dropped away and who some of them have dropped away and who some of them have dropped away and who who is remaining people with gray hair who is remaining people with gray hair who is remaining people with gray hair so you might have lost 30% of people who so you might have lost 30% of people who so you might have lost 30% of people who are 70 plus but there's still a whole are 70 plus but there's still a whole are 70 plus but there's still a whole lot of them in your church because there lot of them in your church because there lot of them in your church because there was way a way more of them to start with was way a way more of them to start with was way a way more of them to start with so that's one thing we have to be really so that's one thing we have to be really so that's one thing we have to be really really mindful of it's called really mindful of it's called really mindful of it's called survivorship bias and so this idea is survivorship bias and so this idea is survivorship bias and so this idea is now older people are religious more now older people are religious more now older people are religious more religious than younger people but every religious than younger people but every religious than younger people but every generation every Birth Cohort is generation every Birth Cohort is generation every Birth Cohort is becoming less religious as time passes becoming less religious as time passes becoming less religious as time passes so yes and no you know all at the same so yes and no you know all at the same so yes and no you know all at the same time because you got to think like when time because you got to think like when time because you got to think like when Millennials get in their 60s and 70s Millennials get in their 60s and 70s Millennials get in their 60s and 70s they're going to be a whole heck of a they're going to be a whole heck of a they're going to be a whole heck of a lot less religious than boomers are now lot less religious than boomers are now lot less religious than boomers are now in their 70s and they're probably and in their 70s and they're probably and in their 70s and they're probably and Millennials are going to be probably Millennials are going to be probably Millennials are going to be probably less religious today than Millennials less religious today than Millennials less religious today than Millennials were 10 years ago or 20 years ago so were 10 years ago or 20 years ago so were 10 years ago or 20 years ago so that's what makes social science hard is that's what makes social science hard is that's what makes social science hard is there's there's all these age period there's there's all these age period there's there's all these age period cohort effects you got to think about cohort effects you got to think about cohort effects you got to think about over time um but yes older people tend over time um but yes older people tend over time um but yes older people tend to be more religious but they're to be more religious but they're to be more religious but they're becoming less religious as they age you becoming less religious as they age you becoming less religious as they age you know we just talked recently on the show know we just talked recently on the show know we just talked recently on the show uh Ryan about gen Z and and we made uh Ryan about gen Z and and we made uh Ryan about gen Z and and we made reference to that about how they're reference to that about how they're reference to that about how they're they're the least religious uh they're the least religious uh they're the least religious uh generation and and you've done such a generation and and you've done such a generation and and you've done such a great job of kind of quantifying that great job of kind of quantifying that great job of kind of quantifying that for us and explaining that yes that's

for us and explaining that yes that's for us and explaining that yes that's true but that historically I guess has true but that historically I guess has true but that historically I guess has always been true that each generation always been true that each generation always been true that each generation that follows each age cohort that that that follows each age cohort that that that follows each age cohort that that that follows is less religious um than that follows is less religious um than that follows is less religious um than than the one prior and I guess I guess than the one prior and I guess I guess than the one prior and I guess I guess my question there is like what do we my question there is like what do we my question there is like what do we what do we glean from that like is there what do we glean from that like is there what do we glean from that like is there is there that's a question I see a lot is there that's a question I see a lot is there that's a question I see a lot um floating around online right now like um floating around online right now like um floating around online right now like well if we see all these downward Trends well if we see all these downward Trends well if we see all these downward Trends in uh Church Decline and church in uh Church Decline and church in uh Church Decline and church attendance and just overall religiosity attendance and just overall religiosity attendance and just overall religiosity what what does that say about the future what what does that say about the future what what does that say about the future of not just the church in America but of not just the church in America but of not just the church in America but the church globally obviously that's a the church globally obviously that's a the church globally obviously that's a loaded question I don't expect you to loaded question I don't expect you to loaded question I don't expect you to have the answer but based off like you have the answer but based off like you have the answer but based off like you handle this data more than more than handle this data more than more than handle this data more than more than just about anyone else we know maybe just about anyone else we know maybe just about anyone else we know maybe anyone uh in America certainly like what anyone uh in America certainly like what anyone uh in America certainly like what what is your personal sentiment about what is your personal sentiment about what is your personal sentiment about the future of the church inica America the future of the church inica America the future of the church inica America given all of this downward decline oh given all of this downward decline oh given all of this downward decline oh it's I've become like the Prophet it's I've become like the Prophet it's I've become like the Prophet Jeremiah walking around saying you know Jeremiah walking around saying you know Jeremiah walking around saying you know babylon's coming God will not protect babylon's coming God will not protect babylon's coming God will not protect you any longer like I honestly like a a you any longer like I honestly like a a you any longer like I honestly like a a significant part of my life now is doing significant part of my life now is doing significant part of my life now is doing you know webinars and zoom meetings with you know webinars and zoom meetings with you know webinars and zoom meetings with denominational leaders in major denominational leaders in major denominational leaders in major denominations that you all know of and denominations that you all know of and denominations that you all know of and basically painting a picture of saying basically painting a picture of saying basically painting a picture of saying like I don't know what worked 20 years like I don't know what worked 20 years like I don't know what worked 20 years ago but sure as the world's not going to ago but sure as the world's not going to ago but sure as the world's not going to work 20 years from now like you can put work 20 years from now like you can put work 20 years from now like you can put your head in the sand all you want your head in the sand all you want your head in the sand all you want but the end is near friends like when but the end is near friends like when but the end is near friends like when you talk like I can give you numbers you talk like I can give you numbers you talk like I can give you numbers like the pcusa you had 3.1 million like the pcusa you had 3.1 million like the pcusa you had 3.1 million members in 1988 they have 1.1 million members in 1988 they have 1.1 million members in 1988 they have 1.1 million members today on an average Sunday in members today on an average Sunday in members today on an average Sunday in America 375,000 episcop alens go to America 375,000 episcop alens go to America 375,000 episcop alens go to worship across the country 375,000

worship across the country 375,000 worship across the country 375,000 across the country right so like you across the country right so like you across the country right so like you start doing all these numbers and you start doing all these numbers and you start doing all these numbers and you realize like there is no denomination realize like there is no denomination realize like there is no denomination that's un the United Methodist Church that's un the United Methodist Church that's un the United Methodist Church lost a quarter of its members in the lost a quarter of its members in the lost a quarter of its members in the last 18 months okay a quarter of their last 18 months okay a quarter of their last 18 months okay a quarter of their members in the last 18 months talk 2 members in the last 18 months talk 2 members in the last 18 months talk 2 million people gone in 18 month million people gone in 18 month million people gone in 18 month yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah why they had a Schism so it was from why they had a Schism so it was from why they had a Schism so it was from that it was from that okay okay yes and that it was from that okay okay yes and that it was from that okay okay yes and actually so what's even more interesting actually so what's even more interesting actually so what's even more interesting about that is they were losing members about that is they were losing members about that is they were losing members before the Schism and now they've lost before the Schism and now they've lost before the Schism and now they've lost 25% of their members during the Schism 25% of their members during the Schism 25% of their members during the Schism and they're going to lose even more in and they're going to lose even more in and they're going to lose even more in the aftermath of the Schism so they the aftermath of the Schism so they the aftermath of the Schism so they might go from 8 million to 4 and a half might go from 8 million to 4 and a half might go from 8 million to 4 and a half million in a 5year period of time and million in a 5year period of time and million in a 5year period of time and they were the second largest they were the second largest they were the second largest denomination in America the the SBC was denomination in America the the SBC was denomination in America the the SBC was 16.2 million in 2006 they 13.1 million 16.2 million in 2006 they 13.1 million 16.2 million in 2006 they 13.1 million today they lost 1.3 million in the last today they lost 1.3 million in the last today they lost 1.3 million in the last 3 years alone they'll probably be below 3 years alone they'll probably be below 3 years alone they'll probably be below 10 million people in the next 15 years 10 million people in the next 15 years 10 million people in the next 15 years or so there will never be a denomination or so there will never be a denomination or so there will never be a denomination in American Life at least in my lifetime in American Life at least in my lifetime in American Life at least in my lifetime that will have more than 10 million that will have more than 10 million that will have more than 10 million members it will probably never happen members it will probably never happen members it will probably never happen again and all this data points to the again and all this data points to the again and all this data points to the same conclusion that now listen it's not same conclusion that now listen it's not same conclusion that now listen it's not all bad news there are some all bad news there are some all bad news there are some denominations that are growing the acna denominations that are growing the acna denominations that are growing the acna anglian church North America is growing anglian church North America is growing anglian church North America is growing but they only have they have less than but they only have they have less than but they only have they have less than half a million members okay so cool half a million members okay so cool half a million members okay so cool you're growing you you have 500,000 you're growing you you have 500,000 you're growing you you have 500,000 members the SBC lost 425,000 last year members the SBC lost 425,000 last year members the SBC lost 425,000 last year so like that that math ain't mathing um so like that that math ain't mathing um so like that that math ain't mathing um the PCA has like 400,000 members they're the PCA has like 400,000 members they're the PCA has like 400,000 members they're growing a little bit the Assemblies of growing a little bit the Assemblies of growing a little bit the Assemblies of God is growing they're like three over God is growing they're like three over God is growing they're like three over three million three almost three and a three million three almost three and a three million three almost three and a half million now but their growth rate half million now but their growth rate half million now but their growth rate is declined to 1% a year now it used to

is declined to 1% a year now it used to is declined to 1% a year now it used to be 3% a year um the only thing that's be 3% a year um the only thing that's be 3% a year um the only thing that's growing in a real kind of sustainable growing in a real kind of sustainable growing in a real kind of sustainable way is non-denominational Protestant way is non-denominational Protestant way is non-denominational Protestant Christianity they're 22 is million Christianity they're 22 is million Christianity they're 22 is million people now probably more than that but people now probably more than that but people now probably more than that but like that's the future of American like that's the future of American like that's the future of American religion the future of American religion religion the future of American religion religion the future of American religion is is the death of denominations as we is is the death of denominations as we is is the death of denominations as we know them today I think in 50 years know them today I think in 50 years know them today I think in 50 years there'll be almost no major there'll be almost no major there'll be almost no major denominations in the United States at denominations in the United States at denominations in the United States at least not the way that we had them 20 or least not the way that we had them 20 or least not the way that we had them 20 or 30 years ago it'll be a whole lot of 30 years ago it'll be a whole lot of 30 years ago it'll be a whole lot of little like enclaves of little like enclaves of little like enclaves of non-denominational churches that non-denominational churches that non-denominational churches that satellites you know they might have satellites you know they might have satellites you know they might have 75,000 members across 12 churches all in 75,000 members across 12 churches all in 75,000 members across 12 churches all in the Charlotte Metro area or in the DFW the Charlotte Metro area or in the DFW the Charlotte Metro area or in the DFW or wherever it is but we will not see or wherever it is but we will not see or wherever it is but we will not see this institutional Christianity like we this institutional Christianity like we this institutional Christianity like we have right now and that means the have right now and that means the have right now and that means the landscape is much more fragmented it's landscape is much more fragmented it's landscape is much more fragmented it's much less uh hierarchical and I think in much less uh hierarchical and I think in much less uh hierarchical and I think in some ways we have much less some ways we have much less some ways we have much less accountability because there are no accountability because there are no accountability because there are no there's no adult in the room or adult in there's no adult in the room or adult in there's no adult in the room or adult in the head office to come check on you the head office to come check on you the head office to come check on you because you know we always talk about because you know we always talk about because you know we always talk about how like institutions out the Catholic how like institutions out the Catholic how like institutions out the Catholic Church failed the sex abuse Scandal the Church failed the sex abuse Scandal the Church failed the sex abuse Scandal the SBC with all their coverups and all SBC with all their coverups and all SBC with all their coverups and all these kind of things if you don't these kind of things if you don't these kind of things if you don't believe that sex abuse is happening in believe that sex abuse is happening in believe that sex abuse is happening in non-denominational churches it is you non-denominational churches it is you non-denominational churches it is you just don't know about it it's happening just don't know about it it's happening just don't know about it it's happening on these smaller scales which don't on these smaller scales which don't on these smaller scales which don't reach national news prominence but the reach national news prominence but the reach national news prominence but the problems that we're facing as American problems that we're facing as American problems that we're facing as American religion does not go way cuz we kill religion does not go way cuz we kill religion does not go way cuz we kill denominations in some ways it's like denominations in some ways it's like denominations in some ways it's like cockroaches like they just they Scurry cockroaches like they just they Scurry cockroaches like they just they Scurry in their own little corners and it's in their own little corners and it's in their own little corners and it's harder to detect them and harder to harder to detect them and harder to harder to detect them and harder to prosecute those people and harder to be prosecute those people and harder to be prosecute those people and harder to be accountable so I think that's what the accountable so I think that's what the accountable so I think that's what the future of American Christianity looks future of American Christianity looks future of American Christianity looks like is much more fragmented um and and like is much more fragmented um and and like is much more fragmented um and and think about this too think about this

think about this too think about this think about this too think about this one question who speaks for one question who speaks for one question who speaks for evangelicalism in North America right evangelicalism in North America right evangelicalism in North America right now I can't name you one person where a now I can't name you one person where a now I can't name you one person where a majority of evangelicals would all point majority of evangelicals would all point majority of evangelicals would all point and go that's the one oh Andy Stanley oh and go that's the one oh Andy Stanley oh and go that's the one oh Andy Stanley oh no that was a tough I like Andy just a no that was a tough I like Andy just a no that was a tough I like Andy just a lot of people don't yeah he I mean he lot of people don't yeah he I mean he lot of people don't yeah he I mean he had a good run right like for a long his had a good run right like for a long his had a good run right like for a long his time he would have been like the the time he would have been like the the time he would have been like the the Pinnacle for many and you know I wish it Pinnacle for many and you know I wish it Pinnacle for many and you know I wish it was Beth Moore I wish more people would was Beth Moore I wish more people would was Beth Moore I wish more people would listen to what Beth Moore has to say listen to what Beth Moore has to say listen to what Beth Moore has to say yeah Beth let let's let's nominate yeah Beth let let's let's nominate yeah Beth let let's let's nominate Beth now she's Anglican by the way so Beth now she's Anglican by the way so Beth now she's Anglican by the way so she's hey that's why that denomination she's hey that's why that denomination she's hey that's why that denomination is growing Beth bringing all the people is growing Beth bringing all the people is growing Beth bringing all the people with her yes but no there's really not I with her yes but no there's really not I with her yes but no there's really not I mean Franklin Graham came out in favor mean Franklin Graham came out in favor mean Franklin Graham came out in favor of the vaccine Facebook and you should of the vaccine Facebook and you should of the vaccine Facebook and you should have seen his Facebook comments guys it have seen his Facebook comments guys it have seen his Facebook comments guys it was like you're the devil mhm like like was like you're the devil mhm like like was like you're the devil mhm like like there is no one like Rick Warren got there is no one like Rick Warren got there is no one like Rick Warren got kicked out of the SBC Joel ostein no one kicked out of the SBC Joel ostein no one kicked out of the SBC Joel ostein no one likes Joel ostein in establishment likes Joel ostein in establishment likes Joel ostein in establishment evangelicalism like there is not a evangelicalism like there is not a evangelicalism like there is not a single person that can unite Evangelical single person that can unite Evangelical single person that can unite Evangelical because like I said it's so fragmented because like I said it's so fragmented because like I said it's so fragmented now it's not one person and so the now it's not one person and so the now it's not one person and so the problem is now we're all talking past problem is now we're all talking past problem is now we're all talking past each other or our own little circles each other or our own little circles each other or our own little circles Here There and Everywhere and there not Here There and Everywhere and there not Here There and Everywhere and there not a larger conversation happening inside a larger conversation happening inside a larger conversation happening inside American evangelicalism which I think is American evangelicalism which I think is American evangelicalism which I think is problematic because because now we're problematic because because now we're problematic because because now we're not all on the same page we're all going not all on the same page we're all going not all on the same page we're all going 50 different directions at once I just 50 different directions at once I just 50 different directions at once I just think that's that's the future and I think that's that's the future and I think that's that's the future and I don't think it's necessarily a better don't think it's necessarily a better don't think it's necessarily a better future than we have right now when it future than we have right now when it future than we have right now when it comes to how Protestant Christianity set comes to how Protestant Christianity set comes to how Protestant Christianity set up well even even that word Ryan that up well even even that word Ryan that up well even even that word Ryan that you're using evangelicalism like it you're using evangelicalism like it you're using evangelicalism like it meant something before and has evolved

meant something before and has evolved meant something before and has evolved in a sense where it doesn't mean the in a sense where it doesn't mean the in a sense where it doesn't mean the same things anymore and there and same things anymore and there and same things anymore and there and there's there's data to to back this up there's there's data to to back this up there's there's data to to back this up that a lot of folks who identify as that a lot of folks who identify as that a lot of folks who identify as Evangelical are not actually doing are Evangelical are not actually doing are Evangelical are not actually doing are not those 3bs you mentioned uh Behavior not those 3bs you mentioned uh Behavior not those 3bs you mentioned uh Behavior belonging and beliefs they actually belonging and beliefs they actually belonging and beliefs they actually don't identify with a lot of the beliefs don't identify with a lot of the beliefs don't identify with a lot of the beliefs historically of evangelicalism and they historically of evangelicalism and they historically of evangelicalism and they certainly don't go to church and it's certainly don't go to church and it's certainly don't go to church and it's become co-opted by uh more political become co-opted by uh more political become co-opted by uh more political movement than anything and so even that movement than anything and so even that movement than anything and so even that word doesn't mean what it used to and so word doesn't mean what it used to and so word doesn't mean what it used to and so for folks who are self-identifying as for folks who are self-identifying as for folks who are self-identifying as Evangelical in some cases they're not Evangelical in some cases they're not Evangelical in some cases they're not even professing Christians any longer even professing Christians any longer even professing Christians any longer and so we have to wrestle through that and so we have to wrestle through that and so we have to wrestle through that as well yeah 16% of self-identified as well yeah 16% of self-identified as well yeah 16% of self-identified evangelicals attended less than once a evangelicals attended less than once a evangelicals attended less than once a year in 2008 now it's year in 2008 now it's year in 2008 now it's 27% of even angical attend less than 27% of even angical attend less than 27% of even angical attend less than once a year um it's become a term I once a year um it's become a term I once a year um it's become a term I wrote a piece for the New York Times wrote a piece for the New York Times wrote a piece for the New York Times about this it's become a synonymous term about this it's become a synonymous term about this it's become a synonymous term for I'm white and I'm conservative and I for I'm white and I'm conservative and I for I'm white and I'm conservative and I like Donald Trump um we're seeing the like Donald Trump um we're seeing the like Donald Trump um we're seeing the rise by the way of um Muslim rise by the way of um Muslim rise by the way of um Muslim evangelicals Jewish evangelicals evangelicals Jewish evangelicals evangelicals Jewish evangelicals Catholic evangelicals uh Hindu Catholic evangelicals uh Hindu Catholic evangelicals uh Hindu evangelicals and the thing that that evangelicals and the thing that that evangelicals and the thing that that binds them all together is they're binds them all together is they're binds them all together is they're Republicans so evangelicalism like in Republicans so evangelicalism like in Republicans so evangelicalism like in the popular vernacular does not mean I the popular vernacular does not mean I the popular vernacular does not mean I believe in the death and resurrection of believe in the death and resurrection of believe in the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ it means I vote for Jesus Christ it means I vote for Jesus Christ it means I vote for conservatives and Republicans on conservatives and Republicans on conservatives and Republicans on election day so so even then the word election day so so even then the word election day so so even then the word has become so and like I get asked like has become so and like I get asked like has become so and like I get asked like can we bring it back I'm like no you can we bring it back I'm like no you can we bring it back I'm like no you can't you know it's gone like it ain't can't you know it's gone like it ain't can't you know it's gone like it ain't coming back you don't own words and you coming back you don't own words and you coming back you don't own words and you can't say no stop using that word so now can't say no stop using that word so now can't say no stop using that word so now the question is like Evangelical with a the question is like Evangelical with a the question is like Evangelical with a modifier so what's the what's the modifier so what's the what's the modifier so what's the what's the modifier I use the word cultural modifier I use the word cultural modifier I use the word cultural Evangelical a lot to you know denote Evangelical a lot to you know denote Evangelical a lot to you know denote these people who don't go to church very

these people who don't go to church very these people who don't go to church very often um but that's really the only often um but that's really the only often um but that's really the only thing that's because anything you use thing that's because anything you use thing that's because anything you use there's pejorative almost like real there's pejorative almost like real there's pejorative almost like real evangelicals versus cultural evangelicals versus cultural evangelicals versus cultural evangelicals like I'm not in the evangelicals like I'm not in the evangelicals like I'm not in the business saying you are real anything um business saying you are real anything um business saying you are real anything um you know you tell me you're Catholic I you know you tell me you're Catholic I you know you tell me you're Catholic I say you're Catholic if you say you're say you're Catholic if you say you're say you're Catholic if you say you're Evangelical I I think you're Evangelical Evangelical I I think you're Evangelical Evangelical I I think you're Evangelical it's not my job to tell you what you are it's not my job to tell you what you are it's not my job to tell you what you are it's your job you to tell me what you it's your job you to tell me what you it's your job you to tell me what you are and then my job is to figure out why are and then my job is to figure out why are and then my job is to figure out why you said that and so that's what you said that and so that's what you said that and so that's what evangelicals it's jump the fence it's evangelicals it's jump the fence it's evangelicals it's jump the fence it's not a theological term anymore it's a not a theological term anymore it's a not a theological term anymore it's a cultural and political word you know I I cultural and political word you know I I cultural and political word you know I I I sometimes feel like I'm pretty bleak I sometimes feel like I'm pretty bleak I sometimes feel like I'm pretty bleak on this show Ryan I'm glad I brought you on this show Ryan I'm glad I brought you on this show Ryan I'm glad I brought you on you're definitely uh taking the on you're definitely uh taking the on you're definitely uh taking the taking that a word for me um so okay taking that a word for me um so okay taking that a word for me um so okay what about okay I'm going to paint a what about okay I'm going to paint a what about okay I'm going to paint a positive picture of all this so we're positive picture of all this so we're positive picture of all this so we're Canadian we didn't grow up with cultural Canadian we didn't grow up with cultural Canadian we didn't grow up with cultural Christianity in our nation we're a lot Christianity in our nation we're a lot Christianity in our nation we're a lot like the UK Australia other Western like the UK Australia other Western like the UK Australia other Western countries in that sense you know not countries in that sense you know not countries in that sense you know not many people go to church here if you go many people go to church here if you go many people go to church here if you go to church it's cuz like you really want to church it's cuz like you really want to church it's cuz like you really want to be there yeah and could we ascertain to be there yeah and could we ascertain to be there yeah and could we ascertain from these you know changing from these you know changing from these you know changing demographics that perhaps it's the you demographics that perhaps it's the you demographics that perhaps it's the you know death of cultural Christianity yes know death of cultural Christianity yes know death of cultural Christianity yes but that's a good thing because the but that's a good thing because the but that's a good thing because the folks that remain are the real True folks that remain are the real True folks that remain are the real True Believers and now tell me why I'm wrong Believers and now tell me why I'm wrong Believers and now tell me why I'm wrong because this is the only thing I'm because this is the only thing I'm because this is the only thing I'm holding on to at this holding on to at this holding on to at this point okay so the correlator for me is point okay so the correlator for me is point okay so the correlator for me is this I'm a I'm a Mainline Protestant I this I'm a I'm a Mainline Protestant I this I'm a I'm a Mainline Protestant I I'm a pastor in the American Baptist I'm a pastor in the American Baptist I'm a pastor in the American Baptist Church we are the um less conservative Church we are the um less conservative Church we are the um less conservative flavor of the Southern bapst convention flavor of the Southern bapst convention flavor of the Southern bapst convention so we have female pastors some Churches so we have female pastors some Churches so we have female pastors some Churches open and affirming but it's a local open and affirming but it's a local open and affirming but it's a local Church decision not a national decision Church decision not a national decision Church decision not a national decision um they actually can't tell you what you um they actually can't tell you what you um they actually can't tell you what you can do you're local church if you don't can do you're local church if you don't can do you're local church if you don't want female pastors you don't have to want female pastors you don't have to want female pastors you don't have to have them either by the way it's your

have them either by the way it's your have them either by the way it's your choice um but we're seeing as being choice um but we're seeing as being choice um but we're seeing as being liberal compared to the SBC which I liberal compared to the SBC which I liberal compared to the SBC which I guess in some ways we are because we're guess in some ways we are because we're guess in some ways we are because we're not as conservative as they are um what not as conservative as they are um what not as conservative as they are um what really grinds my gears is when people really grinds my gears is when people really grinds my gears is when people call Mainline Protestants not real call Mainline Protestants not real call Mainline Protestants not real Christians cuz here's how I think about Christians cuz here's how I think about Christians cuz here's how I think about it would you if like let's like create a it would you if like let's like create a it would you if like let's like create a straw man of like the Die Hard straw man of like the Die Hard straw man of like the Die Hard Evangelical Southern Baptist right would Evangelical Southern Baptist right would Evangelical Southern Baptist right would you rather the 30 million people who go you rather the 30 million people who go you rather the 30 million people who go to Mainline churches every Sunday not go to Mainline churches every Sunday not go to Mainline churches every Sunday not go to church at all or go to a Mainline to church at all or go to a Mainline to church at all or go to a Mainline church I can't imagine what whv you church I can't imagine what whv you church I can't imagine what whv you would say would say I'd rather you not would say would say I'd rather you not would say would say I'd rather you not be in church at all compared to a church be in church at all compared to a church be in church at all compared to a church that I don't agree with on issues like that I don't agree with on issues like that I don't agree with on issues like women in Ministry women in Ministry women in Ministry like that is the issue like I think the like that is the issue like I think the like that is the issue like I think the I the thing here's the thing Isis I the thing here's the thing Isis I the thing here's the thing Isis remember Isis in the Middle East yeah remember Isis in the Middle East yeah remember Isis in the Middle East yeah you know who Isis killed more of than you know who Isis killed more of than you know who Isis killed more of than anyone else moderate Muslims that's who anyone else moderate Muslims that's who anyone else moderate Muslims that's who they killed more of than anyone else they killed more of than anyone else they killed more of than anyone else they killed very few Christians because they killed very few Christians because they killed very few Christians because Christians were apostates and at least Christians were apostates and at least Christians were apostates and at least they knew they were apostates right like they knew they were apostates right like they knew they were apostates right like I don't want to listen I'm not don't I don't want to listen I'm not don't I don't want to listen I'm not don't don't hear me wrong I'm not trying to don't hear me wrong I'm not trying to don't hear me wrong I'm not trying to equate like evangelicals with Isis but equate like evangelicals with Isis but equate like evangelicals with Isis but the the same general idea is you you the the same general idea is you you the the same general idea is you you dislike people who are closer to you dislike people who are closer to you dislike people who are closer to you because they're not as close enough to because they're not as close enough to because they're not as close enough to you than you like people who are very you than you like people who are very you than you like people who are very far away from you I think those Purity far away from you I think those Purity far away from you I think those Purity tests are exactly what's wrong with our tests are exactly what's wrong with our tests are exactly what's wrong with our country right now and you see this in by country right now and you see this in by country right now and you see this in by the way in the United States with the the way in the United States with the the way in the United States with the Republican party they have the freedom Republican party they have the freedom Republican party they have the freedom caucus and they've got the Normy

caucus and they've got the Normy caucus and they've got the Normy Republicans and the freedom caucus Republicans and the freedom caucus Republicans and the freedom caucus people will burn it down because the people will burn it down because the people will burn it down because the Normy Republicans will compromise on Normy Republicans will compromise on Normy Republicans will compromise on things like budget issues and you know things like budget issues and you know things like budget issues and you know what the end result was we didn't have a what the end result was we didn't have a what the end result was we didn't have a speaker of the house for almost a month speaker of the house for almost a month speaker of the house for almost a month we had to go through like six different we had to go through like six different we had to go through like six different options because they wanted the perfect options because they wanted the perfect options because they wanted the perfect speaker per the perfect is the enemy of speaker per the perfect is the enemy of speaker per the perfect is the enemy of the good and I think American Christians the good and I think American Christians the good and I think American Christians need to realize that like I am a whole need to realize that like I am a whole need to realize that like I am a whole lot closer to a southern baptist than I lot closer to a southern baptist than I lot closer to a southern baptist than I am an atheist and yet because I allow a am an atheist and yet because I allow a am an atheist and yet because I allow a woman to preach in my church I'm somehow woman to preach in my church I'm somehow woman to preach in my church I'm somehow less than you I just have a real problem less than you I just have a real problem less than you I just have a real problem with Purity tests and I think those and with Purity tests and I think those and with Purity tests and I think those and I think by the way I think one of the I think by the way I think one of the I think by the way I think one of the reasons the mainlines collapsed is reasons the mainlines collapsed is reasons the mainlines collapsed is because evangelicals have been saying because evangelicals have been saying because evangelicals have been saying over and over again in our ears you're over and over again in our ears you're over and over again in our ears you're not real Christians you're not real not real Christians you're not real not real Christians you're not real Christians I I would rather have a Christians I I would rather have a Christians I I would rather have a hundred million people in a Mainline hundred million people in a Mainline hundred million people in a Mainline church this Sunday than have 100 million church this Sunday than have 100 million church this Sunday than have 100 million people not go to church at all and I people not go to church at all and I people not go to church at all and I think a lot of evangelicals would not think a lot of evangelicals would not think a lot of evangelicals would not agree with that sentiment I think that's agree with that sentiment I think that's agree with that sentiment I think that's the primary problem that's why we're the primary problem that's why we're the primary problem that's why we're seeing religious polarization in this seeing religious polarization in this seeing religious polarization in this country where in the future all we're country where in the future all we're country where in the future all we're going to have are a bunch of going to have are a bunch of going to have are a bunch of evangelicals and traditional Catholics evangelicals and traditional Catholics evangelicals and traditional Catholics and Muslims and Latter-Day Saints and and Muslims and Latter-Day Saints and and Muslims and Latter-Day Saints and Orthodox Jews on one side and a whole Orthodox Jews on one side and a whole Orthodox Jews on one side and a whole bunch of nuns on the other side and bunch of nuns on the other side and bunch of nuns on the other side and nothing in between there are lots of nothing in between there are lots of nothing in between there are lots of Americans who would Embrace Christianity Americans who would Embrace Christianity Americans who would Embrace Christianity but will not Embrace a Christianity that but will not Embrace a Christianity that but will not Embrace a Christianity that is not open and affirming would not is not open and affirming would not is not open and affirming would not Embrace a Christianity that doesn't Embrace a Christianity that doesn't Embrace a Christianity that doesn't allow women to have full access to allow women to have full access to allow women to have full access to leadership but the problem is in most leadership but the problem is in most leadership but the problem is in most communities Across America there are no communities Across America there are no communities Across America there are no churches that do those things because churches that do those things because churches that do those things because they've been basically purified and they've been basically purified and they've been basically purified and those people have either left or become

those people have either left or become those people have either left or become evangelicals and I think America evangelicals and I think America evangelicals and I think America functioned better when people had functioned better when people had functioned better when people had options for religion that weren't none options for religion that weren't none options for religion that weren't none or really conservative evangelicalism or really conservative evangelicalism or really conservative evangelicalism and that's what the fure of America and that's what the fure of America and that's what the fure of America looks like right I'm actually writing a looks like right I'm actually writing a looks like right I'm actually writing a book about this called the Big Church book about this called the Big Church book about this called the Big Church sort haven't announced it yet so here sort haven't announced it yet so here sort haven't announced it yet so here behind theen hey the exclusive there you behind theen hey the exclusive there you behind theen hey the exclusive there you go with brazzo's press I'm writing a go with brazzo's press I'm writing a go with brazzo's press I'm writing a book called The Big Church sort book called The Big Church sort book called The Big Church sort basically about how we're not talking basically about how we're not talking basically about how we're not talking enough about religious polarization in enough about religious polarization in enough about religious polarization in this country and how it's destroying us this country and how it's destroying us this country and how it's destroying us it's destroying us personally it's destroying us personally it's destroying us personally spiritually and democratically little DD spiritually and democratically little DD spiritually and democratically little DD democratically democracy thrives when democratically democracy thrives when democratically democracy thrives when the church thrives and the church is not the church thrives and the church is not the church thrives and the church is not thriving right now because it's not a thriving right now because it's not a thriving right now because it's not a place where people mix and mingle with place where people mix and mingle with place where people mix and mingle with people who are different than them it's people who are different than them it's people who are different than them it's all one note which is almost always all one note which is almost always all one note which is almost always conservative republicanism and I think conservative republicanism and I think conservative republicanism and I think that's a real problem for a functioning that's a real problem for a functioning that's a real problem for a functioning democracy as we go forward we're worse democracy as we go forward we're worse democracy as we go forward we're worse because of this and I I cannot I cannot because of this and I I cannot I cannot because of this and I I cannot I cannot emphasize that point anymore you telling emphasize that point anymore you telling emphasize that point anymore you telling Mainline Protestants they're not good Mainline Protestants they're not good Mainline Protestants they're not good enough is leading to really bad outcomes enough is leading to really bad outcomes enough is leading to really bad outcomes and we're not going to recover from that and we're not going to recover from that and we're not going to recover from that in the meantime that sounds like it in the meantime that sounds like it in the meantime that sounds like it mirrors politics in a lot of ways right mirrors politics in a lot of ways right mirrors politics in a lot of ways right like most Americans are probably like like most Americans are probably like like most Americans are probably like hey I kind to go for this or for that hey I kind to go for this or for that hey I kind to go for this or for that but all we hear about is like the but all we hear about is like the but all we hear about is like the extremes on either side and you're kind extremes on either side and you're kind extremes on either side and you're kind of like forced to like pick an extreme of like forced to like pick an extreme of like forced to like pick an extreme almost and then the you know person that almost and then the you know person that almost and then the you know person that average person is like I don't know if I average person is like I don't know if I average person is like I don't know if I feel it I either of these extremes are feel it I either of these extremes are feel it I either of these extremes are kind of insane um it sounds like church kind of insane um it sounds like church kind of insane um it sounds like church is very much the same way I can't relate is very much the same way I can't relate is very much the same way I can't relate to that growing up I remember there was to that growing up I remember there was to that growing up I remember there was a Mormon that lived um on our little a Mormon that lived um on our little a Mormon that lived um on our little court and uh I was like Mom they say court and uh I was like Mom they say court and uh I was like Mom they say they believe in Jesus too and and does they believe in Jesus too and and does they believe in Jesus too and and does that mean they go to heaven mom was like

that mean they go to heaven mom was like that mean they go to heaven mom was like you know what sure she's like why not you know what sure she's like why not you know what sure she's like why not she's like you know what son I hope for she's like you know what son I hope for she's like you know what son I hope for nothing more that we get to heaven and nothing more that we get to heaven and nothing more that we get to heaven and they're there I was like cool and then they're there I was like cool and then they're there I was like cool and then went to the Pentecostal Church old the went to the Pentecostal Church old the went to the Pentecostal Church old the Baptist Church nope that's heresy I like Baptist Church nope that's heresy I like Baptist Church nope that's heresy I like oh okay well I guess I'm learning that oh okay well I guess I'm learning that oh okay well I guess I'm learning that pretty quickly um shifting gears a bit pretty quickly um shifting gears a bit pretty quickly um shifting gears a bit uh Ryan I came across an article by Pew uh Ryan I came across an article by Pew uh Ryan I came across an article by Pew and they were discussing generational and they were discussing generational and they were discussing generational labels and how and this kind of gets labels and how and this kind of gets labels and how and this kind of gets into like the practice of what you do into like the practice of what you do into like the practice of what you do versus you know kind of the outcomes and versus you know kind of the outcomes and versus you know kind of the outcomes and what we can infer from it which we've what we can infer from it which we've what we can infer from it which we've been discussing so far and Pew was been discussing so far and Pew was been discussing so far and Pew was talking about the criticism of talking about the criticism of talking about the criticism of generational labels and how it can lead generational labels and how it can lead generational labels and how it can lead to you know generation bashing and how to you know generation bashing and how to you know generation bashing and how you know there's no perfect way of you know there's no perfect way of you know there's no perfect way of saying this is one generation and it saying this is one generation and it saying this is one generation and it perfectly ends it this year and enters perfectly ends it this year and enters perfectly ends it this year and enters into this next year and they said going into this next year and they said going into this next year and they said going forward we're not going to do any forward we're not going to do any forward we're not going to do any research where we can't say at this age research where we can't say at this age research where we can't say at this age Millennials did this and then compare it Millennials did this and then compare it Millennials did this and then compare it to Boomers at this same age did that to Boomers at this same age did that to Boomers at this same age did that rather than here's what they're both rather than here's what they're both rather than here's what they're both doing in 2024 let's say what's your take doing in 2024 let's say what's your take doing in 2024 let's say what's your take on generational labels I know that you on generational labels I know that you on generational labels I know that you use them a lot in your data as they are use them a lot in your data as they are use them a lot in your data as they are easily understood by most folks and easily understood by most folks and easily understood by most folks and where do you see maybe the weaknesses where do you see maybe the weaknesses where do you see maybe the weaknesses strengths or what Pew is saying does it strengths or what Pew is saying does it strengths or what Pew is saying does it have Merit yeah so this is a great like have Merit yeah so this is a great like have Merit yeah so this is a great like marketing question honestly marketing question honestly marketing question honestly um from an academic perspective um from an academic perspective um from an academic perspective generational labels are absolutely generational labels are absolutely generational labels are absolutely stupid ridiculous and meaningless like stupid ridiculous and meaningless like stupid ridiculous and meaningless like they they make no sense at all because they they make no sense at all because they they make no sense at all because for instance like you know Millennials for instance like you know Millennials for instance like you know Millennials were born between like 1978 and 1995 oh were born between like 1978 and 1995 oh were born between like 1978 and 1995 oh my God in heaven is there a difference my God in heaven is there a difference my God in heaven is there a difference between some kid born in 1979 and between some kid born in 1979 and between some kid born in 1979 and 1994 you know what I mean like I I was 1994 you know what I mean like I I was 1994 you know what I mean like I I was born in 1982 I did not have a texting

born in 1982 I did not have a texting born in 1982 I did not have a texting cell phone till I graduated college okay cell phone till I graduated college okay cell phone till I graduated college okay and now my you know think about someone and now my you know think about someone and now my you know think about someone who was born in who was born in who was born in 1994 they were for when the iPhone came 1994 they were for when the iPhone came 1994 they were for when the iPhone came out you know like it's a totally out you know like it's a totally out you know like it's a totally different world but here's what I know different world but here's what I know different world but here's what I know about using generational labels people about using generational labels people about using generational labels people eat that stuff up they love it and so eat that stuff up they love it and so eat that stuff up they love it and so it's always this constant push and pull it's always this constant push and pull it's always this constant push and pull like at the end of the day I'm a content like at the end of the day I'm a content like at the end of the day I'm a content creator and I know some people like o creator and I know some people like o creator and I know some people like o don't say those words I'm a content don't say those words I'm a content don't say those words I'm a content creator I create content for Twitter for creator I create content for Twitter for creator I create content for Twitter for substack for podcast or whatever I do I substack for podcast or whatever I do I substack for podcast or whatever I do I create content and I've been doing it create content and I've been doing it create content and I've been doing it now for a long time uh I make 1,500 now for a long time uh I make 1,500 now for a long time uh I make 1,500 graphs a year I've been doing it for the graphs a year I've been doing it for the graphs a year I've been doing it for the last 5 years in a row I wrote 250,000 last 5 years in a row I wrote 250,000 last 5 years in a row I wrote 250,000 words last year and I made probably 300 words last year and I made probably 300 words last year and I made probably 300 at least uh at least 300 graphs for my at least uh at least 300 graphs for my at least uh at least 300 graphs for my substack at least so I know what goes substack at least so I know what goes substack at least so I know what goes and what doesn't go or I have a better and what doesn't go or I have a better and what doesn't go or I have a better sense than most people Generations go sense than most people Generations go sense than most people Generations go better than birth cohorts if you want better than birth cohorts if you want better than birth cohorts if you want something to go viral use Generations something to go viral use Generations something to go viral use Generations don't use birth cohorts because for don't use birth cohorts because for don't use birth cohorts because for whatever reason that stuff is just like whatever reason that stuff is just like whatever reason that stuff is just like catnip for the average person the better catnip for the average person the better catnip for the average person the better way to do it is the one I just told you way to do it is the one I just told you way to do it is the one I just told you about which is birth cohorts which are about which is birth cohorts which are about which is birth cohorts which are fiveyear birth windows we don't don't fiveyear birth windows we don't don't fiveyear birth windows we don't don't label those with cute names like zenial label those with cute names like zenial label those with cute names like zenial and you know Gen X and all that stuff and you know Gen X and all that stuff and you know Gen X and all that stuff it's just 1945 to 1949 that's when you it's just 1945 to 1949 that's when you it's just 1945 to 1949 that's when you were born because those people went to were born because those people went to were born because those people went to high school together you know like that high school together you know like that high school together you know like that makes sense to me the problem is though makes sense to me the problem is though makes sense to me the problem is though that creates a graph with 16 graphs not that creates a graph with 16 graphs not that creates a graph with 16 graphs not five because Generations only five five because Generations only five five because Generations only five generations or 16 birth cohorts and if generations or 16 birth cohorts and if generations or 16 birth cohorts and if you do lot multiples of something like you do lot multiples of something like you do lot multiples of something like little bitty boxes it doesn't go as well

little bitty boxes it doesn't go as well little bitty boxes it doesn't go as well as doing five bigger boxes simple goes as doing five bigger boxes simple goes as doing five bigger boxes simple goes farther than more complicated and that's farther than more complicated and that's farther than more complicated and that's the always the constant push and pull the always the constant push and pull the always the constant push and pull between Academia and writing for the between Academia and writing for the between Academia and writing for the general audiences where do those two Vin general audiences where do those two Vin general audiences where do those two Vin diagrams overlap you want to try to hit diagrams overlap you want to try to hit diagrams overlap you want to try to hit the spot where the academic audience the spot where the academic audience the spot where the academic audience doesn't hate what you did and the doesn't hate what you did and the doesn't hate what you did and the general public is not being completely general public is not being completely general public is not being completely misinformed by using bad measures and misinformed by using bad measures and misinformed by using bad measures and bad metrics that I fall in that trap bad metrics that I fall in that trap bad metrics that I fall in that trap sometimes like sometimes I'll post sometimes like sometimes I'll post sometimes like sometimes I'll post something and I'll have an academic something and I'll have an academic something and I'll have an academic friend slideing my DM goes you probably friend slideing my DM goes you probably friend slideing my DM goes you probably take that down because people are not take that down because people are not take that down because people are not going to be able to understand that the going to be able to understand that the going to be able to understand that the right way and I do you know so if you right way and I do you know so if you right way and I do you know so if you create content the thing you got to know create content the thing you got to know create content the thing you got to know is it's it's impossible to stay in that is it's it's impossible to stay in that is it's it's impossible to stay in that pocket all the time Generations are an pocket all the time Generations are an pocket all the time Generations are an easy it's like a quick fix a quick hit easy it's like a quick fix a quick hit easy it's like a quick fix a quick hit like oh I need some I need some retweets like oh I need some I need some retweets like oh I need some I need some retweets today let me do something with today let me do something with today let me do something with Generations knowing that it's kind of Generations knowing that it's kind of Generations knowing that it's kind of not that good not academically rigorous not that good not academically rigorous not that good not academically rigorous but also knowing that it's not going but also knowing that it's not going but also knowing that it's not going away either we're going to be using away either we're going to be using away either we're going to be using those labels for all of humanity and all those labels for all of humanity and all those labels for all of humanity and all of eternity because at the end of the of eternity because at the end of the of eternity because at the end of the day people still like them so you have day people still like them so you have day people still like them so you have to get the people what they want at some to get the people what they want at some to get the people what they want at some level I think media literacy is level I think media literacy is level I think media literacy is something that uh we all can continue to something that uh we all can continue to something that uh we all can continue to improve on an individual and uh cultural improve on an individual and uh cultural improve on an individual and uh cultural level if you were speaking to someone level if you were speaking to someone level if you were speaking to someone like hey here's how you should best like hey here's how you should best like hey here's how you should best interpret data when you you do come interpret data when you you do come interpret data when you you do come across the generational labels what are across the generational labels what are across the generational labels what are things that we should look for um and things that we should look for um and things that we should look for um and how should we read it should it all just how should we read it should it all just how should we read it should it all just be like you know with a little bit of an be like you know with a little bit of an be like you know with a little bit of an open hand knowing that it's in an open hand knowing that it's in an open hand knowing that it's in an imperfect kind of science I would say so imperfect kind of science I would say so imperfect kind of science I would say so yeah I think you got to be really really yeah I think you got to be really really yeah I think you got to be really really careful because like these Generations careful because like these Generations careful because like these Generations are huge you know what I mean like you are huge you know what I mean like you are huge you know what I mean like you got to think about like how much how

got to think about like how much how got to think about like how much how much things change from the early the much things change from the early the much things change from the early the front end of the generation even give front end of the generation even give front end of the generation even give gen Z okay so gen Z was born 199 six or gen Z okay so gen Z was born 199 six or gen Z okay so gen Z was born 199 six or later which means the oldest ones now later which means the oldest ones now later which means the oldest ones now are about 28 years old we only start are about 28 years old we only start are about 28 years old we only start surveying adults so we're only catching surveying adults so we're only catching surveying adults so we're only catching the first 10 years of gen Z we're not the first 10 years of gen Z we're not the first 10 years of gen Z we're not even catching the back end of it like even catching the back end of it like even catching the back end of it like the the the the youngest members and we the the the the youngest members and we the the the the youngest members and we don't know when Jen Z Ends by the way don't know when Jen Z Ends by the way don't know when Jen Z Ends by the way because no one's decided that like I because no one's decided that like I because no one's decided that like I don't know if Moses comes down from don't know if Moses comes down from don't know if Moses comes down from heaven and like tells us okay it ends in heaven and like tells us okay it ends in heaven and like tells us okay it ends in you know whatever 2012 I don't know you know whatever 2012 I don't know you know whatever 2012 I don't know that's the problem is like we when you that's the problem is like we when you that's the problem is like we when you look at data especially like I look at look at data especially like I look at look at data especially like I look at the GSS you look at Millennials the GSS the GSS you look at Millennials the GSS the GSS you look at Millennials the GSS started in 1972 the oldest Millennial started in 1972 the oldest Millennial started in 1972 the oldest Millennial was born in 1978 so they weren't even was born in 1978 so they weren't even was born in 1978 so they weren't even the Millennials weren't even taking the the Millennials weren't even taking the the Millennials weren't even taking the GSS for like halfway through the course GSS for like halfway through the course GSS for like halfway through the course of it so that's the problem is like you of it so that's the problem is like you of it so that's the problem is like you got to really think about okay how old got to really think about okay how old got to really think about okay how old were these people when they took that were these people when they took that were these people when they took that surve because if they were younger surve because if they were younger surve because if they were younger that's going to and then Generations that's going to and then Generations that's going to and then Generations change over time we just talked about so change over time we just talked about so change over time we just talked about so I think generational labels are fun I think generational labels are fun I think generational labels are fun because they get they get the the because they get they get the the because they get they get the the reaction but methodologically they're reaction but methodologically they're reaction but methodologically they're incredibly problematic because they're incredibly problematic because they're incredibly problematic because they're so they're almost amorphous to the point so they're almost amorphous to the point so they're almost amorphous to the point where they don't mean anything all right where they don't mean anything all right where they don't mean anything all right let's talk about more problematic labels let's talk about more problematic labels let's talk about more problematic labels then so Generations no good Evangelical then so Generations no good Evangelical then so Generations no good Evangelical definitely doesn't mean anything anymore definitely doesn't mean anything anymore definitely doesn't mean anything anymore you tweeted today yesterday very you tweeted today yesterday very you tweeted today yesterday very recently about Protestant versus recently about Protestant versus recently about Protestant versus Christian and how young folks are almost Christian and how young folks are almost Christian and how young folks are almost completely aware of like what Protestant completely aware of like what Protestant completely aware of like what Protestant even means and they are two and a half even means and they are two and a half even means and they are two and a half times more likely to say that they are times more likely to say that they are times more likely to say that they are Christian rather than Protestant can you Christian rather than Protestant can you Christian rather than Protestant can you talk about this development in younger talk about this development in younger talk about this development in younger people and what it might mean for making people and what it might mean for making people and what it might mean for making sense of the data and numbers going

sense of the data and numbers going sense of the data and numbers going forward as apparently as you already forward as apparently as you already forward as apparently as you already mentioned with word Evangelical words mentioned with word Evangelical words mentioned with word Evangelical words mean nothing language could be coop at mean nothing language could be coop at mean nothing language could be coop at any time and you know we're all just any time and you know we're all just any time and you know we're all just trying our best yeah so the word no one trying our best yeah so the word no one trying our best yeah so the word no one knows what the word Protestant means knows what the word Protestant means knows what the word Protestant means young people have no clue like so there young people have no clue like so there young people have no clue like so there was a survey that I got a hold of that was a survey that I got a hold of that was a survey that I got a hold of that had 477,000 respondents and usually what had 477,000 respondents and usually what had 477,000 respondents and usually what the first couple responses are like the first couple responses are like the first couple responses are like what's your present religion of any and what's your present religion of any and what's your present religion of any and here's your responses Protestant here's your responses Protestant here's your responses Protestant Catholic Mormon Orthodox Jewish Muslim Catholic Mormon Orthodox Jewish Muslim Catholic Mormon Orthodox Jewish Muslim Hindu Buddhist atheist agnostic nothing Hindu Buddhist atheist agnostic nothing Hindu Buddhist atheist agnostic nothing in particular and then something else in particular and then something else in particular and then something else and then you can write in a box with and then you can write in a box with and then you can write in a box with something else which is an absolute something else which is an absolute something else which is an absolute nightmare I never nightmare I never nightmare I never uh Curious I wrot a post about this like uh Curious I wrot a post about this like uh Curious I wrot a post about this like a long time ago where I tried to dig a long time ago where I tried to dig a long time ago where I tried to dig through it and I was like just I'm through it and I was like just I'm through it and I was like just I'm getting stupider by the like some guy getting stupider by the like some guy getting stupider by the like some guy wrote like Baptist wi is that not an wrote like Baptist wi is that not an wrote like Baptist wi is that not an option because he did not know that option because he did not know that option because he did not know that Protestant was Baptist uh one was really Protestant was Baptist uh one was really Protestant was Baptist uh one was really like one I think about honestly every like one I think about honestly every like one I think about honestly every day this guy goes I my wife's a Lutheran day this guy goes I my wife's a Lutheran day this guy goes I my wife's a Lutheran and I go to church with her but I'm an and I go to church with her but I'm an and I go to church with her but I'm an atheist I was thinking okay so like by atheist I was thinking okay so like by atheist I was thinking okay so like by one metric you're definitely a Lutheran one metric you're definitely a Lutheran one metric you're definitely a Lutheran but like by another metric you're but like by another metric you're but like by another metric you're definitely an atheist like I don't know definitely an atheist like I don't know definitely an atheist like I don't know what to do with that so now this other what to do with that so now this other what to do with that so now this other Ser I have goes Protestant Catholic Ser I have goes Protestant Catholic Ser I have goes Protestant Catholic Mormon Orthodox Christian other than Mormon Orthodox Christian other than Mormon Orthodox Christian other than above is the fifth option before you get above is the fifth option before you get above is the fifth option before you get to Jewish Muslim Hindu Buddhist so like to Jewish Muslim Hindu Buddhist so like to Jewish Muslim Hindu Buddhist so like that's cool question because then you that's cool question because then you that's cool question because then you see like people go wait a minute am I see like people go wait a minute am I see like people go wait a minute am I what am what what am I I'm just a what am what what am I I'm just a what am what what am I I'm just a Christian check the just Christian box Christian check the just Christian box Christian check the just Christian box and so if you look at that like over the and so if you look at that like over the and so if you look at that like over the age gradient what you see is that young

age gradient what you see is that young age gradient what you see is that young people like about 10% of young people people like about 10% of young people people like about 10% of young people know they're Protestant but like 25% say know they're Protestant but like 25% say know they're Protestant but like 25% say they're Christian they're Christian they're Christian so like they don't know what the word so like they don't know what the word so like they don't know what the word Protestant means now amongst older Protestant means now amongst older Protestant means now amongst older people the lines cross and they're much people the lines cross and they're much people the lines cross and they're much more likely to say they're Protestant more likely to say they're Protestant more likely to say they're Protestant and much less likely to say they're and much less likely to say they're and much less likely to say they're Christian because they know they're Christian because they know they're Christian because they know they're Protestant because that was language Protestant because that was language Protestant because that was language used with them you know like you were used with them you know like you were used with them you know like you were Lutheran or Episcopalian or whatever so Lutheran or Episcopalian or whatever so Lutheran or Episcopalian or whatever so the problem is a lot of these churches the problem is a lot of these churches the problem is a lot of these churches are so like rejecting labels of every are so like rejecting labels of every are so like rejecting labels of every kind I think this is like the the long kind I think this is like the the long kind I think this is like the the long tale of the secret sensitive movement tale of the secret sensitive movement tale of the secret sensitive movement with Bill hibl and Rick Warren guys like with Bill hibl and Rick Warren guys like with Bill hibl and Rick Warren guys like let's take the crosses out of church and let's take the crosses out of church and let's take the crosses out of church and let's take the stained glass out of let's take the stained glass out of let's take the stained glass out of there like let's take the word press there like let's take the word press there like let's take the word press throw away Martin Luther don't need him throw away Martin Luther don't need him throw away Martin Luther don't need him so now people have no sense of religious so now people have no sense of religious so now people have no sense of religious literacy and that makes it really really literacy and that makes it really really literacy and that makes it really really hard to try to do surveys because it's hard to try to do surveys because it's hard to try to do surveys because it's like well how do you know if you're how like well how do you know if you're how like well how do you know if you're how do I know the Protestants are actually do I know the Protestants are actually do I know the Protestants are actually storing themselves in the right bucket storing themselves in the right bucket storing themselves in the right bucket now and the answer is I don't know um I now and the answer is I don't know um I now and the answer is I don't know um I will say this if you compare that survey will say this if you compare that survey will say this if you compare that survey to other surveys that don't have the to other surveys that don't have the to other surveys that don't have the just Christian option if you add the just Christian option if you add the just Christian option if you add the just Christian plus Protestant together just Christian plus Protestant together just Christian plus Protestant together in that one survey it equals the in that one survey it equals the in that one survey it equals the Protestant and the other survey so they Protestant and the other survey so they Protestant and the other survey so they the size is the same but it's just the size is the same but it's just the size is the same but it's just becoming really really problematic becoming really really problematic becoming really really problematic because people don't know what in the because people don't know what in the because people don't know what in the heck they are because pastors are heck they are because pastors are heck they are because pastors are honestly pastors if you're listening to honestly pastors if you're listening to honestly pastors if you're listening to this will you tell your people they're this will you tell your people they're this will you tell your people they're Protestant at some point please like Protestant at some point please like Protestant at some point please like explain just like a thre minute explain just like a thre minute explain just like a thre minute Christian history class you don't have Christian history class you don't have Christian history class you don't have to go in the 95 thesis and indulgences to go in the 95 thesis and indulgences to go in the 95 thesis and indulgences and the schisms and all that nonsense and the schisms and all that nonsense and the schisms and all that nonsense just explain Martin Luther and the just explain Martin Luther and the just explain Martin Luther and the Protestant Reformation a little bit so Protestant Reformation a little bit so Protestant Reformation a little bit so people know where they fit in people know where they fit in people know where they fit in theological and church history cuz right theological and church history cuz right theological and church history cuz right now they don't know anything and plus

now they don't know anything and plus now they don't know anything and plus add of that the fact a lot of these Noms add of that the fact a lot of these Noms add of that the fact a lot of these Noms don't even they're not they don't don't don't even they're not they don't don't don't even they're not they don't don't call themselves churches anymore we have call themselves churches anymore we have call themselves churches anymore we have Gatherings you know like it's it's just Gatherings you know like it's it's just Gatherings you know like it's it's just getting rid of all the labels that are getting rid of all the labels that are getting rid of all the labels that are attached to religion and it's like I'm attached to religion and it's like I'm attached to religion and it's like I'm like as a pollster I'm like but we need like as a pollster I'm like but we need like as a pollster I'm like but we need those labels please they really help me those labels please they really help me those labels please they really help me do my work so don't get rid of them do my work so don't get rid of them do my work so don't get rid of them thank you well and it's not just your thank you well and it's not just your thank you well and it's not just your work Ryan like I'm a I'm a pastor of a work Ryan like I'm a I'm a pastor of a work Ryan like I'm a I'm a pastor of a non-denominational church and so like to non-denominational church and so like to non-denominational church and so like to your earlier point when you were talking your earlier point when you were talking your earlier point when you were talking about the future of the church in about the future of the church in about the future of the church in America and how how a lot of these America and how how a lot of these America and how how a lot of these Mainline denominations that as we know Mainline denominations that as we know Mainline denominations that as we know them now and certainly as we have known them now and certainly as we have known them now and certainly as we have known them in the past are are dissolving in a them in the past are are dissolving in a them in the past are are dissolving in a sense and and will likely just be sense and and will likely just be sense and and will likely just be rendered into these these smaller rendered into these these smaller rendered into these these smaller non-denominational schisms for one word non-denominational schisms for one word non-denominational schisms for one word Gatherings for another Gatherings for another Gatherings for another and as a as a non-denominational Pastor and as a as a non-denominational Pastor and as a as a non-denominational Pastor I feel that tension of like um being I feel that tension of like um being I feel that tension of like um being untethered in a sense from church untethered in a sense from church untethered in a sense from church history and I I'm learning the history and I I'm learning the history and I I'm learning the importance of okay we don't belong to a importance of okay we don't belong to a importance of okay we don't belong to a denomination we don't we don't often use denomination we don't we don't often use denomination we don't we don't often use the word um Protestant in our Gatherings the word um Protestant in our Gatherings the word um Protestant in our Gatherings but it's really important to know that but it's really important to know that but it's really important to know that the history of the church and and and the history of the church and and and the history of the church and and and the history of our faith and so that's the history of our faith and so that's the history of our faith and so that's like that's on my radar personally of of like that's on my radar personally of of like that's on my radar personally of of helping to helping our church along as helping to helping our church along as helping to helping our church along as it as it pertains to like church history it as it pertains to like church history it as it pertains to like church history uh literacy but I do fear that that in a uh literacy but I do fear that that in a uh literacy but I do fear that that in a future of more non-denominational future of more non-denominational future of more non-denominational churches that are more untethered from churches that are more untethered from churches that are more untethered from the history of protestant Mainline the history of protestant Mainline the history of protestant Mainline denominations we lose that sense of denominations we lose that sense of denominations we lose that sense of history that sense of of place where we history that sense of of place where we history that sense of of place where we have come from and where we're going or

have come from and where we're going or have come from and where we're going or and where are and that will have uh a and where are and that will have uh a and where are and that will have uh a detriment uh a negative impact on on detriment uh a negative impact on on detriment uh a negative impact on on possibly where we're going oh I think possibly where we're going oh I think possibly where we're going oh I think catechism is is a lost art in American catechism is is a lost art in American catechism is is a lost art in American religion in in worldwide Christianity religion in in worldwide Christianity religion in in worldwide Christianity Western Protestant Christianity has lost Western Protestant Christianity has lost Western Protestant Christianity has lost the sense of catechism like I listen I the sense of catechism like I listen I the sense of catechism like I listen I don't think you should sit there and don't think you should sit there and don't think you should sit there and drill your kids on like you know these drill your kids on like you know these drill your kids on like you know these catechistic but you should I don't know catechistic but you should I don't know catechistic but you should I don't know why every M every Church in America why every M every Church in America why every M every Church in America especially non- denom churches need to especially non- denom churches need to especially non- denom churches need to say like let's have like a four-week say like let's have like a four-week say like let's have like a four-week class where we talk about here's what we class where we talk about here's what we class where we talk about here's what we believe here's here's where we fit in a believe here's here's where we fit in a believe here's here's where we fit in a larger Christian story like here's our larger Christian story like here's our larger Christian story like here's our family here's our faith Tradition now family here's our faith Tradition now family here's our faith Tradition now we're closer to let's say a Southern we're closer to let's say a Southern we're closer to let's say a Southern Baptist theologically or culturally Baptist theologically or culturally Baptist theologically or culturally we're closer to the methodists like we're closer to the methodists like we're closer to the methodists like there needs to be some sort of like there needs to be some sort of like there needs to be some sort of like let's throw a tether out to what exists let's throw a tether out to what exists let's throw a tether out to what exists and say this is closer to what like the and say this is closer to what like the and say this is closer to what like the the whole thing is like oh we're not a the whole thing is like oh we're not a the whole thing is like oh we're not a religion we're a relationship like that religion we're a relationship like that religion we're a relationship like that language needs to stop okay like language needs to stop okay like language needs to stop okay like religion is not a dirty word like I'm religion is not a dirty word like I'm religion is not a dirty word like I'm part of a religious tradition that you part of a religious tradition that you part of a religious tradition that you know what I'm part of a religious know what I'm part of a religious know what I'm part of a religious tradition that saved my grandfather from tradition that saved my grandfather from tradition that saved my grandfather from alcoholism okay and allowed him to Mar alcoholism okay and allowed him to Mar alcoholism okay and allowed him to Mar marry my grandmother and have three kids marry my grandmother and have three kids marry my grandmother and have three kids the same Faith tradition that persevered the same Faith tradition that persevered the same Faith tradition that persevered and allowed people to come to the new and allowed people to come to the new and allowed people to come to the new world and face all the trials and world and face all the trials and world and face all the trials and tribulations they face to go through the tribulations they face to go through the tribulations they face to go through the Dark Ages that's the kind of religion Dark Ages that's the kind of religion Dark Ages that's the kind of religion I'm a part of I'm a part of that strand I'm a part of I'm a part of that strand I'm a part of I'm a part of that strand that runs back through history for 2,000 that runs back through history for 2,000 that runs back through history for 2,000 years and say no no no my church is too years and say no no no my church is too years and say no no no my church is too cool we're a relationship now says it cool we're a relationship now says it cool we're a relationship now says it severs us from our generational past we severs us from our generational past we severs us from our generational past we are no different than our parents and

are no different than our parents and are no different than our parents and Grand parents and great grandparents and Grand parents and great grandparents and Grand parents and great grandparents and to say that we need to just get rid of to say that we need to just get rid of to say that we need to just get rid of all that stuff and not use the word all that stuff and not use the word all that stuff and not use the word Protestant not use the word religion not Protestant not use the word religion not Protestant not use the word religion not talk about stained glass windows and talk about stained glass windows and talk about stained glass windows and crucifixion that is what sustained crucifixion that is what sustained crucifixion that is what sustained people for generations and it will people for generations and it will people for generations and it will sustain us if we'd allow it and I think sustain us if we'd allow it and I think sustain us if we'd allow it and I think that's my bigger I look at these young that's my bigger I look at these young that's my bigger I look at these young people and go are you are you anxious people and go are you are you anxious people and go are you are you anxious are do you think life's going well are do you think life's going well are do you think life's going well because all the data says life is not because all the data says life is not because all the data says life is not going well well what did you get rid of going well well what did you get rid of going well well what did you get rid of over the last 30 years hm now it's not over the last 30 years hm now it's not over the last 30 years hm now it's not I'm not saying that everyone becomes I'm not saying that everyone becomes I'm not saying that everyone becomes religious and life gets magically better religious and life gets magically better religious and life gets magically better but when you basically tear down all the but when you basically tear down all the but when you basically tear down all the institutions in history that built institutions in history that built institutions in history that built western civilization and you're left western civilization and you're left western civilization and you're left with nothing and now you're anxious and with nothing and now you're anxious and with nothing and now you're anxious and upset about it you might want to return upset about it you might want to return upset about it you might want to return to tradition a little bit you know like to tradition a little bit you know like to tradition a little bit you know like there's the reason these things worked there's the reason these things worked there's the reason these things worked is because they worked you know religion is because they worked you know religion is because they worked you know religion think about all the institutions that think about all the institutions that think about all the institutions that have died and declined over the last have died and declined over the last have died and declined over the last 2,000 years of Western history The 2,000 years of Western history The 2,000 years of Western history The Church has not it still maintains itself Church has not it still maintains itself Church has not it still maintains itself because it figured out how to survive because it figured out how to survive because it figured out how to survive every major cataclysmic event facing every major cataclysmic event facing every major cataclysmic event facing civilization and yet the thing that's civilization and yet the thing that's civilization and yet the thing that's going to kill it is this generation going to kill it is this generation going to kill it is this generation trying to get rid of history and and all trying to get rid of history and and all trying to get rid of history and and all institutions like come on man like we institutions like come on man like we institutions like come on man like we got to stop that stuff we got to dig got to stop that stuff we got to dig got to stop that stuff we got to dig back into history and by the way that's back into history and by the way that's back into history and by the way that's not saying that everything the church not saying that everything the church not saying that everything the church did was great A lot of it was awful but did was great A lot of it was awful but did was great A lot of it was awful but St Augustine once apocryphally said the St Augustine once apocryphally said the St Augustine once apocryphally said the church is a but she's my mother church is a but she's my mother church is a but she's my mother and without the church we would not have and without the church we would not have and without the church we would not have me today I wouldn't exist and I think me today I wouldn't exist and I think me today I wouldn't exist and I think there's something to be said about being there's something to be said about being there's something to be said about being proud of that and um not papering over

proud of that and um not papering over proud of that and um not papering over or glossing over the horrible atrocities or glossing over the horrible atrocities or glossing over the horrible atrocities were committed in the name of religion were committed in the name of religion were committed in the name of religion but also not minimizing all the good but also not minimizing all the good but also not minimizing all the good things that religion has brought to the things that religion has brought to the things that religion has brought to the world we have to do both those things I world we have to do both those things I world we have to do both those things I think young people would Embrace that think young people would Embrace that think young people would Embrace that because they want to see that history because they want to see that history because they want to see that history well uh we insulted Ryan one too many well uh we insulted Ryan one too many well uh we insulted Ryan one too many times about being Bleak and then he went times about being Bleak and then he went times about being Bleak and then he went and he preached all over us and uh I'm and he preached all over us and uh I'm and he preached all over us and uh I'm grateful personally yeah uh Ryan we want grateful personally yeah uh Ryan we want grateful personally yeah uh Ryan we want to promote your substack uh graphs about to promote your substack uh graphs about to promote your substack uh graphs about relationship uh graphs about religion relationship uh graphs about religion relationship uh graphs about religion uh we are and relationships I mean if uh we are and relationships I mean if uh we are and relationships I mean if you want to do that too that's fine I am you want to do that too that's fine I am you want to do that too that's fine I am a proud subscriber paid subscriber a proud subscriber paid subscriber a proud subscriber paid subscriber definitely want to encourage everyone to definitely want to encourage everyone to definitely want to encourage everyone to check this out Ryan talked about the check this out Ryan talked about the check this out Ryan talked about the volume of work that he puts out if you volume of work that he puts out if you volume of work that he puts out if you just kind of are dipping your toes in just kind of are dipping your toes in just kind of are dipping your toes in this uh Twitter X is a great follow to this uh Twitter X is a great follow to this uh Twitter X is a great follow to get started but uh there's nothing quite get started but uh there's nothing quite get started but uh there's nothing quite like substack big fans of substack the like substack big fans of substack the like substack big fans of substack the uh you know organization overall I uh you know organization overall I uh you know organization overall I subscribe to a number of newsletters subscribe to a number of newsletters subscribe to a number of newsletters there Ryan's included goes right direct there Ryan's included goes right direct there Ryan's included goes right direct to your inbox we've got a book on the to your inbox we've got a book on the to your inbox we've got a book on the way Ryan what else uh might people want way Ryan what else uh might people want way Ryan what else uh might people want to connect uh you know to your work with to connect uh you know to your work with to connect uh you know to your work with yeah I mean Twitter's really the the the yeah I mean Twitter's really the the the yeah I mean Twitter's really the the the the Hub although elon's making my life the Hub although elon's making my life the Hub although elon's making my life difficult there uh but at Ryan Burge uh difficult there uh but at Ryan Burge uh difficult there uh but at Ryan Burge uh my substack is graphs about religion my substack is graphs about religion my substack is graphs about religion graphs about religion.com two posts a graphs about religion.com two posts a graphs about religion.com two posts a week one free one paid actually not week one free one paid actually not week one free one paid actually not always one free one paid so I it's two always one free one paid so I it's two always one free one paid so I it's two free most of the content is free free most of the content is free free most of the content is free initially then it goes behind a payall initially then it goes behind a payall initially then it goes behind a payall after three months I wrote I wrote um after three months I wrote I wrote um after three months I wrote I wrote um I'm coming up on one year I'm at 100 I'm coming up on one year I'm at 100 I'm coming up on one year I'm at 100 posts now so you're getting a ton of posts now so you're getting a ton of posts now so you're getting a ton of content from me 1,500 words five six content from me 1,500 words five six content from me 1,500 words five six graphs every you know twice in your

graphs every you know twice in your graphs every you know twice in your inbox a week um I have a book with inbox a week um I have a book with inbox a week um I have a book with Oxford University press called the Oxford University press called the Oxford University press called the American religious landscape facts American religious landscape facts American religious landscape facts Trends in the future it's like a Trends in the future it's like a Trends in the future it's like a textbook if you want to see what textbook if you want to see what textbook if you want to see what American religion looks like this is American religion looks like this is American religion looks like this is this is as far as I can tell the the this is as far as I can tell the the this is as far as I can tell the the exhaused version of that it's going to exhaused version of that it's going to exhaused version of that it's going to come out sometime probably late this come out sometime probably late this come out sometime probably late this year early next year just signed a year early next year just signed a year early next year just signed a contract with Brazos to write a book contract with Brazos to write a book contract with Brazos to write a book called The Big Church sort which will called The Big Church sort which will called The Big Church sort which will come out next year making this argument come out next year making this argument come out next year making this argument about how religious polarization killing about how religious polarization killing about how religious polarization killing America and how we can kind of reinvent America and how we can kind of reinvent America and how we can kind of reinvent what American religion look looks like what American religion look looks like what American religion look looks like um you can find me at Ryan b.net you um you can find me at Ryan b.net you um you can find me at Ryan b.net you Google me and I pop up uh you know I'm e Google me and I pop up uh you know I'm e Google me and I pop up uh you know I'm e I'm easily findable is what I tell I'm easily findable is what I tell I'm easily findable is what I tell people it's not hard to find me on the people it's not hard to find me on the people it's not hard to find me on the internet outstanding well we appreciate internet outstanding well we appreciate internet outstanding well we appreciate your time so very much and thank you to your time so very much and thank you to your time so very much and thank you to everyone watching and listening we everyone watching and listening we everyone watching and listening we appreciate your kindness attention and appreciate your kindness attention and appreciate your kindness attention and Trust what that's not what I say at the Trust what that's not what I say at the Trust what that's not what I say at the end of the show I have a signature sign end of the show I have a signature sign end of the show I have a signature sign up and I just messed it up your time up and I just messed it up your time up and I just messed it up your time time your kindness we give kindness over time your kindness we give kindness over time your kindness we give kindness over a listening we're not getting we're not a listening we're not getting we're not a listening we're not getting we're not getting a lot of kindness lately Lord getting a lot of kindness lately Lord getting a lot of kindness lately Lord have mercy time attention that have mercy time attention that have mercy time attention that we'll talk to you next week to help us we'll talk to you next week to help us we'll talk to you next week to help us all break it down we've got Ryan Burge all break it down we've got Ryan Burge all break it down we've got Ryan Burge of graphs about religion he's the of graphs about religion he's the of graphs about religion he's the preeminent source of data on faith and preeminent source of data on faith and preeminent source of data on faith and data but also Faith so let's do