Matt Hessel Coaches on Conflict Resolution for Churches

today's on seminary resources brought to today's on seminary resources brought to you by aware three at a where three you by aware three at a where three you by aware three at a where three their goal is to help your church build their goal is to help your church build their goal is to help your church build connections using mobile technology they connections using mobile technology they connections using mobile technology they help you extend Church beyond sunday help you extend Church beyond sunday help you extend Church beyond sunday mornings by putting it in the palm of mornings by putting it in the palm of mornings by putting it in the palm of everyone's and learn more about how a everyone's and learn more about how a everyone's and learn more about how a custom mobile app can help you improve custom mobile app can help you improve custom mobile app can help you improve engagement communication and generosity engagement communication and generosity engagement communication and generosity at WWE where three that's the number at WWE where three that's the number at WWE where three that's the number three Comm welcome to the seminary three Comm welcome to the seminary three Comm welcome to the seminary podcast are you looking for practical podcast are you looking for practical podcast are you looking for practical ministry help to drive your ministry ministry help to drive your ministry ministry help to drive your ministry further faster have a sinking feeling further faster have a sinking feeling further faster have a sinking feeling that your ministry training didn't that your ministry training didn't that your ministry training didn't prepare you for the real world hey prepare you for the real world hey prepare you for the real world hey you're not alone joining thousands of you're not alone joining thousands of you're not alone joining thousands of others in pursuit of stuff that we wish others in pursuit of stuff that we wish others in pursuit of stuff that we wish they had taught him seminary buckle up they had taught him seminary buckle up they had taught him seminary buckle up and let's get started with this week on and let's get started with this week on and let's get started with this week on seminary podcast what everybody happy seminary podcast what everybody happy seminary podcast what everybody happy Thursday my name is rich the host here Thursday my name is rich the host here Thursday my name is rich the host here and on seminary I am so glad that you and on seminary I am so glad that you and on seminary I am so glad that you decided to listen in today we've got a decided to listen in today we've got a decided to listen in today we've got a real treat for you we've got more kessel real treat for you we've got more kessel real treat for you we've got more kessel on the phone from traders point on the phone from traders point on the phone from traders point christian church now i actually think christian church now i actually think christian church now i actually think this is the oldest church that I've ever this is the oldest church that I've ever this is the oldest church that I've ever interviewed on the church 1834 was the interviewed on the church 1834 was the interviewed on the church 1834 was the founding that's incredible that's been founding that's incredible that's been founding that's incredible that's been around but that staying power if nothing around but that staying power if nothing around but that staying power if nothing else but you know it's not only a else but you know it's not only a else but you know it's not only a historic church but making all kinds of historic church but making all kinds of historic church but making all kinds of you know impact today there are two you know impact today there are two you know impact today there are two three campus locations mark is a part of three campus locations mark is a part of three campus locations mark is a part of the leadership team they're so glad to the leadership team they're so glad to the leadership team they're so glad to have I just called you mark I can't have I just called you mark I can't have I just called you mark I can't believe I did that Matt welcome to the believe I did that Matt welcome to the believe I did that Matt welcome to the show so glad you're here I was gonna let

show so glad you're here I was gonna let show so glad you're here I was gonna let it go man it's alright well they can't it go man it's alright well they can't it go man it's alright well they can't do that but I was glad you're that's all do that but I was glad you're that's all do that but I was glad you're that's all right why don't you tell us about tell right why don't you tell us about tell right why don't you tell us about tell us about traders point tell us about the us about traders point tell us about the us about traders point tell us about the church yeah it's me I'm obviously very church yeah it's me I'm obviously very church yeah it's me I'm obviously very biased but it's a blessing to be here biased but it's a blessing to be here biased but it's a blessing to be here like you said it is an old church 1834 I like you said it is an old church 1834 I like you said it is an old church 1834 I like to walk their guests with and say like to walk their guests with and say like to walk their guests with and say hey Andrew Jackson was president when hey Andrew Jackson was president when hey Andrew Jackson was president when our church was founded off about the guy our church was founded off about the guy our church was founded off about the guy data point which is just nuts about in data point which is just nuts about in data point which is just nuts about in what's cool about it is I think what what's cool about it is I think what what's cool about it is I think what we've done really well is just passed we've done really well is just passed we've done really well is just passed the baton generation after generation the baton generation after generation the baton generation after generation after generation so right now we are after generation so right now we are after generation so right now we are standing on the previous generation of standing on the previous generation of standing on the previous generation of either standing on their shoulders and either standing on their shoulders and either standing on their shoulders and what they built and we're just getting what they built and we're just getting what they built and we're just getting after it after it after it grown quite a bit in the last eight or grown quite a bit in the last eight or grown quite a bit in the last eight or nine years we were about twelve thirteen nine years we were about twelve thirteen nine years we were about twelve thirteen hundred 2007-2008 ish and had really hundred 2007-2008 ish and had really hundred 2007-2008 ish and had really jumped up plus six thousand in the last jumped up plus six thousand in the last jumped up plus six thousand in the last eight years getting ready to launch our eight years getting ready to launch our eight years getting ready to launch our third campus downtown Indianapolis so third campus downtown Indianapolis so third campus downtown Indianapolis so there's a lot going on right now nice there's a lot going on right now nice there's a lot going on right now nice people love indie right in such a great people love indie right in such a great people love indie right in such a great place in these a great city great city place in these a great city great city place in these a great city great city now what is what's kind of God used in now what is what's kind of God used in now what is what's kind of God used in that process oh that's a super complex that process oh that's a super complex that process oh that's a super complex question but what's God used in that question but what's God used in that question but what's God used in that process to see growth over these last process to see growth over these last process to see growth over these last year's what kind of was the inflection year's what kind of was the inflection year's what kind of was the inflection point I don't know I think we we were point I don't know I think we we were point I don't know I think we we were coming off the tenure of our previous coming off the tenure of our previous coming off the tenure of our previous senior pastor he was here for about 25 senior pastor he was here for about 25 senior pastor he was here for about 25 years yep served faithfully it was time years yep served faithfully it was time years yep served faithfully it was time for him to to step down he was diagnosed for him to to step down he was diagnosed for him to to step down he was diagnosed with Parkinson's disease it was just with Parkinson's disease it was just with Parkinson's disease it was just time for him to retire what's great is time for him to retire what's great is time for him to retire what's great is he's now still in the church just

he's now still in the church just he's now still in the church just serving in as a member that's so close serving in as a member that's so close serving in as a member that's so close and our new lead pastor came on in 2007 and our new lead pastor came on in 2007 and our new lead pastor came on in 2007 and just his leadership his wisdom his and just his leadership his wisdom his and just his leadership his wisdom his gift of preaching is just kind of taking gift of preaching is just kind of taking gift of preaching is just kind of taking us to a new level we don't have a growth us to a new level we don't have a growth us to a new level we don't have a growth strategy of how we are we going to get strategy of how we are we going to get strategy of how we are we going to get more people to come to the church all we more people to come to the church all we more people to come to the church all we will follow Jesus he says hey if you will follow Jesus he says hey if you will follow Jesus he says hey if you look them my name will draw all men to look them my name will draw all men to look them my name will draw all men to ourselves so it's what we try to do ourselves so it's what we try to do ourselves so it's what we try to do every single weekend and just watch him every single weekend and just watch him every single weekend and just watch him work first well I can imagine you know work first well I can imagine you know work first well I can imagine you know as you've seen that growth scale and as you've seen that growth scale and as you've seen that growth scale and seen so many people come and the changes seen so many people come and the changes seen so many people come and the changes that have taken place there now I'm sure that have taken place there now I'm sure that have taken place there now I'm sure everything is just always perfect at everything is just always perfect at everything is just always perfect at trader's point that there's never any trader's point that there's never any trader's point that there's never any conflict that night but there ever any conflict that night but there ever any conflict that night but there ever any problems obviously say that problems obviously say that problems obviously say that tongue-in-cheek anybody that's been a tongue-in-cheek anybody that's been a tongue-in-cheek anybody that's been a part of a you know a growing church part of a you know a growing church part of a you know a growing church knows that conflict frankly is just a knows that conflict frankly is just a knows that conflict frankly is just a piece of the equation it's a kind of a piece of the equation it's a kind of a piece of the equation it's a kind of a part of what happens I wonder if you part of what happens I wonder if you part of what happens I wonder if you know how had what have you experienced know how had what have you experienced know how had what have you experienced on that front if you've led both staff on that front if you've led both staff on that front if you've led both staff and volunteers at the church yeah and volunteers at the church yeah and volunteers at the church yeah absolutely conflict is inevitable and absolutely conflict is inevitable and absolutely conflict is inevitable and sometimes we have this perception that sometimes we have this perception that sometimes we have this perception that hey I need to avoid conflict that's the hey I need to avoid conflict that's the hey I need to avoid conflict that's the case you don't need to be in leadership case you don't need to be in leadership case you don't need to be in leadership right the conflict is actually one of right the conflict is actually one of right the conflict is actually one of those things in a healthy context it can those things in a healthy context it can those things in a healthy context it can be the sandpaper that smooths some be the sandpaper that smooths some be the sandpaper that smooths some things out in cuz she to a better spot things out in cuz she to a better spot things out in cuz she to a better spot so a lot of times I think we talked so a lot of times I think we talked so a lot of times I think we talked about how do I lead through something we about how do I lead through something we about how do I lead through something we threw a contact conflict or change and i threw a contact conflict or change and i threw a contact conflict or change and i think as leaders we've got to be really think as leaders we've got to be really think as leaders we've got to be really cognizant intentional about leading cognizant intentional about leading cognizant intentional about leading well not just through something but but well not just through something but but well not just through something but but to something that that's that's the goal to something that that's that's the goal to something that that's that's the goal it's easy to just say hey here's the

it's easy to just say hey here's the it's easy to just say hey here's the change any conflict it comes with it change any conflict it comes with it change any conflict it comes with it this is what we're going we're going to this is what we're going we're going to this is what we're going we're going to do you can like it or leave it but what do you can like it or leave it but what do you can like it or leave it but what you can do then is lose leader she can you can do then is lose leader she can you can do then is lose leader she can lose people that have been with you for lose people that have been with you for lose people that have been with you for a while that may not like the direction a while that may not like the direction a while that may not like the direction you're going may not like some of the you're going may not like some of the you're going may not like some of the changes maybe you're getting rid of a changes maybe you're getting rid of a changes maybe you're getting rid of a program that it was very dear to them program that it was very dear to them program that it was very dear to them that's okay to have those kinds of that's okay to have those kinds of that's okay to have those kinds of emotions but we won't actually emotions but we won't actually emotions but we won't actually reposition them and tell them here's the reposition them and tell them here's the reposition them and tell them here's the why to what we're doing we don't want to why to what we're doing we don't want to why to what we're doing we don't want to lead out with just tactics tactics lead out with just tactics tactics lead out with just tactics tactics tactics are extremely important but tactics are extremely important but tactics are extremely important but leading people to the Y letting them see leading people to the Y letting them see leading people to the Y letting them see where we're going is huge then with where we're going is huge then with where we're going is huge then with conflicts can you give us a sense of it conflicts can you give us a sense of it conflicts can you give us a sense of it Before we jump on its give me an example Before we jump on its give me an example Before we jump on its give me an example of how you've done that at the church of how you've done that at the church of how you've done that at the church kind of lead with the why how have you kind of lead with the why how have you kind of lead with the why how have you articulated that you know it may be an articulated that you know it may be an articulated that you know it may be an example of like this is some conflict example of like this is some conflict example of like this is some conflict that or potential conflict and then this that or potential conflict and then this that or potential conflict and then this is how you lead with the why absolutely is how you lead with the why absolutely is how you lead with the why absolutely dripping why all the time so vision and dripping why all the time so vision and dripping why all the time so vision and why should not be one should not be a why should not be one should not be a why should not be one should not be a sermon that comes up one time of year sermon that comes up one time of year sermon that comes up one time of year from the pulpit and that's it you're from the pulpit and that's it you're from the pulpit and that's it you're going to do those but it's got to be going to do those but it's got to be going to do those but it's got to be stripped all the time it's going to be stripped all the time it's going to be stripped all the time it's going to be trip from the pulpit it's got to be trip trip from the pulpit it's got to be trip trip from the pulpit it's got to be trip from announcement it's got to be in your from announcement it's got to be in your from announcement it's got to be in your groups it's got to be in the volunteer groups it's got to be in the volunteer groups it's got to be in the volunteer culture it's always being translated culture it's always being translated culture it's always being translated down to everyone into the church one down to everyone into the church one down to everyone into the church one particular change that we've made in the particular change that we've made in the particular change that we've made in the last two years was some of our strategic last two years was some of our strategic last two years was some of our strategic partners globally around the world we partners globally around the world we partners globally around the world we we've been partnered with them for a we've been partnered with them for a we've been partnered with them for a long time great things but really wanted long time great things but really wanted long time great things but really wanted to go in a new direction based on muni to go in a new direction based on muni to go in a new direction based on muni that we saw and getting rid of or moving that we saw and getting rid of or moving that we saw and getting rid of or moving away from potential partners that people away from potential partners that people away from potential partners that people have been with 10 or 15 years or

have been with 10 or 15 years or have been with 10 or 15 years or something thank God is calling us to do something thank God is calling us to do something thank God is calling us to do there can be some consoling oh I can't there can be some consoling oh I can't there can be some consoling oh I can't just you're describing that vibrates just you're describing that vibrates just you're describing that vibrates pulses you went to people and said you pulses you went to people and said you pulses you went to people and said you were able to navigate through that and were able to navigate through that and were able to navigate through that and actually say hey we're not going to actually say hey we're not going to actually say hey we're not going to support these missionaries we're going support these missionaries we're going support these missionaries we're going to redirect that to a different area how to redirect that to a different area how to redirect that to a different area how did you do that ah there's very did you do that ah there's very did you do that ah there's very carefully very carefully so first and carefully very carefully so first and carefully very carefully so first and foremost we've got to tell me why we're foremost we've got to tell me why we're foremost we've got to tell me why we're doing it what was what's going to happen doing it what was what's going to happen doing it what was what's going to happen why we still value the ones that they've why we still value the ones that they've why we still value the ones that they've been very connected to so if you can't been very connected to so if you can't been very connected to so if you can't honor the past be careful going into the honor the past be careful going into the honor the past be careful going into the future with people future with people future with people if somebody some people are going to be if somebody some people are going to be if somebody some people are going to be so connected because hey they saw God so connected because hey they saw God so connected because hey they saw God move in incredible ways through this move in incredible ways through this move in incredible ways through this particular program or this partner you particular program or this partner you particular program or this partner you got to be able to honor that did not not got to be able to honor that did not not got to be able to honor that did not not let them think that you're just saying let them think that you're just saying let them think that you're just saying hey this wasn't valid so honoring what hey this wasn't valid so honoring what hey this wasn't valid so honoring what the past was and what God did you the the past was and what God did you the the past was and what God did you the past but then letting them see here's past but then letting them see here's past but then letting them see here's the future here's what God's calling us the future here's what God's calling us the future here's what God's calling us to next is crucial and then there's to next is crucial and then there's to next is crucial and then there's their steps to go go through out the way their steps to go go through out the way their steps to go go through out the way but letting them see the vision and but letting them see the vision and but letting them see the vision and honoring the past vital very very honoring the past vital very very honoring the past vital very very regularly well what else is you going to regularly well what else is you going to regularly well what else is you going to kind of thought through that let's say kind of thought through that let's say kind of thought through that let's say you know people have bubble long you you know people have bubble long you you know people have bubble long you know for a little bit you know what else know for a little bit you know what else know for a little bit you know what else have you learned as you've tried to you have you learned as you've tried to you have you learned as you've tried to you know lead through all the change that know lead through all the change that know lead through all the change that you've gone through at trader's point you've gone through at trader's point you've gone through at trader's point yeah I think there's two things with yeah I think there's two things with yeah I think there's two things with conflict or change there's there's one conflict or change there's there's one conflict or change there's there's one is that we think that conflict or change is that we think that conflict or change is that we think that conflict or change we have to respond to it and be ready in we have to respond to it and be ready in we have to respond to it and be ready in a moment and there's certainly that but a moment and there's certainly that but a moment and there's certainly that but more importantly as a leader I think more importantly as a leader I think more importantly as a leader I think we've got to be prepared for conflict in we've got to be prepared for conflict in we've got to be prepared for conflict in advance so being proactive not just

advance so being proactive not just advance so being proactive not just responsive so on the react decide responsive so on the react decide responsive so on the react decide there's a couple things that are just there's a couple things that are just there's a couple things that are just this should be common sense one will be this should be common sense one will be this should be common sense one will be done' don't match a motion with emotion done' don't match a motion with emotion done' don't match a motion with emotion when people get upset with things don't when people get upset with things don't when people get upset with things don't match their emotion like listen to them match their emotion like listen to them match their emotion like listen to them I found that a lot of times people once I found that a lot of times people once I found that a lot of times people once they feel like they've been listened to they feel like they've been listened to they feel like they've been listened to then they're willing to list right then they're willing to list right then they're willing to list right that's huge we had a couple in our that's huge we had a couple in our that's huge we had a couple in our church about six months ago that they've church about six months ago that they've church about six months ago that they've been leaders in our church for a while been leaders in our church for a while been leaders in our church for a while they were upset with a particular change they were upset with a particular change they were upset with a particular change they didn't understand the philosophy they didn't understand the philosophy they didn't understand the philosophy and they were there were there pretty and they were there were there pretty and they were there were there pretty tense about it they wanted to meet with tense about it they wanted to meet with tense about it they wanted to meet with me I knew this was going to be a pretty me I knew this was going to be a pretty me I knew this was going to be a pretty intense conversation didn't know exactly intense conversation didn't know exactly intense conversation didn't know exactly what was going to happen three minutes what was going to happen three minutes what was going to happen three minutes in I realized all they needed me to do in I realized all they needed me to do in I realized all they needed me to do was just sit there and listen to them was just sit there and listen to them was just sit there and listen to them for a few minutes and then after 30 for a few minutes and then after 30 for a few minutes and then after 30 minutes of listening to them and minutes of listening to them and minutes of listening to them and affirming what they were saying I was affirming what they were saying I was affirming what they were saying I was able to easily just realign that and now able to easily just realign that and now able to easily just realign that and now there's the role the role so just there's the role the role so just there's the role the role so just feeling like they didn't listen to huge feeling like they didn't listen to huge feeling like they didn't listen to huge yeah this is a huge deal I want to yeah this is a huge deal I want to yeah this is a huge deal I want to underline that as a leader you know over underline that as a leader you know over underline that as a leader you know over the years as people have you know there the years as people have you know there the years as people have you know there are times where people sometimes people are times where people sometimes people are times where people sometimes people bring their issues to bear and they bring their issues to bear and they bring their issues to bear and they there are certain things that they're there are certain things that they're there are certain things that they're upset about what's going on in the upset about what's going on in the upset about what's going on in the church and and there are times where church and and there are times where church and and there are times where they're bringing more Freight with it they're bringing more Freight with it they're bringing more Freight with it more emotional Freight to more emotional Freight to more emotional Freight to the issue then the actual issue we're the issue then the actual issue we're the issue then the actual issue we're talking about and there's you know it talking about and there's you know it talking about and there's you know it connects to other things in their lives connects to other things in their lives connects to other things in their lives and you know we can do them a disservice and you know we can do them a disservice and you know we can do them a disservice when we if they're ramping up to just when we if they're ramping up to just when we if they're ramping up to just ramped up with them you know we've got ramped up with them you know we've got ramped up with them you know we've got to stop slow down listen to where

to stop slow down listen to where to stop slow down listen to where they're at and not and not just throw they're at and not and not just throw they're at and not and not just throw more wood on the fire for sure you know more wood on the fire for sure you know more wood on the fire for sure you know and most of the time when you just and most of the time when you just and most of the time when you just listen to see what they're really at listen to see what they're really at listen to see what they're really at whatever they're upset about that's not whatever they're upset about that's not whatever they're upset about that's not the real thing there's something deeper the real thing there's something deeper the real thing there's something deeper into it if you listened then you can't into it if you listened then you can't into it if you listened then you can't get into the heart of things with what's get into the heart of things with what's get into the heart of things with what's really bothering you then you can really bothering you then you can really bothering you then you can realign then you can reposition someone realign then you can reposition someone realign then you can reposition someone and get them on board would take here's and get them on board would take here's and get them on board would take here's the new vision here's the new why and at the new vision here's the new why and at the new vision here's the new why and at the same time if that doesn't happen and the same time if that doesn't happen and the same time if that doesn't happen and they can't get on board that that's okay they can't get on board that that's okay they can't get on board that that's okay too that's okay too but but we can too that's okay too but but we can too that's okay too but but we can prevent bitterness from setting and if prevent bitterness from setting and if prevent bitterness from setting and if people are listening to and you get it people are listening to and you get it people are listening to and you get it and you can get into the heart of and you can get into the heart of and you can get into the heart of whatever it is that they're really upset whatever it is that they're really upset whatever it is that they're really upset about yeah another interesting piece of about yeah another interesting piece of about yeah another interesting piece of this equation is you know I think this equation is you know I think this equation is you know I think sometimes we r we can actually build a sometimes we r we can actually build a sometimes we r we can actually build a stronger community through conflict that stronger community through conflict that stronger community through conflict that you know I think there are there can be you know I think there are there can be you know I think there are there can be leaders that are conflict avoidant that leaders that are conflict avoidant that leaders that are conflict avoidant that just are you know they just try to just are you know they just try to just are you know they just try to weasel wet out out of these ever talking weasel wet out out of these ever talking weasel wet out out of these ever talking to people and that actually undermines to people and that actually undermines to people and that actually undermines community you know in the long range can community you know in the long range can community you know in the long range can you think of a time or a relationship you think of a time or a relationship you think of a time or a relationship that you maybe have walked through some that you maybe have walked through some that you maybe have walked through some conflict with them and actually come up conflict with them and actually come up conflict with them and actually come up the other end and it's been stronger the other end and it's been stronger the other end and it's been stronger because of it yeah absolutely I can give because of it yeah absolutely I can give because of it yeah absolutely I can give one that was not that I did a bad job one that was not that I did a bad job one that was not that I did a bad job with ya and then also on the opposite with ya and then also on the opposite with ya and then also on the opposite side so one thing I think you just side so one thing I think you just side so one thing I think you just nailed the head was that you can't just nailed the head was that you can't just nailed the head was that you can't just avoid conflict because that can actually avoid conflict because that can actually avoid conflict because that can actually make things far worse not only for them make things far worse not only for them make things far worse not only for them as an individual and the relationship as an individual and the relationship as an individual and the relationship you have with them but for other people you have with them but for other people you have with them but for other people around them so i'd say like this some around them so i'd say like this some around them so i'd say like this some conflict is unhealthy maybe it's conflict is unhealthy maybe it's conflict is unhealthy maybe it's cancerous don't let stage two cancer

cancerous don't let stage two cancer cancerous don't let stage two cancer turn into stage four cancer as a leader turn into stage four cancer as a leader turn into stage four cancer as a leader by avoiding it because what that does is by avoiding it because what that does is by avoiding it because what that does is it's going to hurt that person even more it's going to hurt that person even more it's going to hurt that person even more when you could have led them out of it when you could have led them out of it when you could have led them out of it too once you get to that stage it starts too once you get to that stage it starts too once you get to that stage it starts to hurt other people around them so a to hurt other people around them so a to hurt other people around them so a person about a year ago I was leading person about a year ago I was leading person about a year ago I was leading and things had started to go awry there and things had started to go awry there and things had started to go awry there was a bitterness and a heart issue but was a bitterness and a heart issue but was a bitterness and a heart issue but my approach to it was hey I'm just going my approach to it was hey I'm just going my approach to it was hey I'm just going to be really direct with them I'm going to be really direct with them I'm going to be really direct with them I'm going to tell them here the growth that just to tell them here the growth that just to tell them here the growth that just here's the problem that I see but then here's the problem that I see but then here's the problem that I see but then the the the the same time I just want to encourage the same time I just want to encourage the same time I just want to encourage him find things that I can affirm in him find things that I can affirm in him find things that I can affirm in them great stuff but really what that them great stuff but really what that them great stuff but really what that was was she had stage two cancer and my was was she had stage two cancer and my was was she had stage two cancer and my plan of attack was just to change her plan of attack was just to change her plan of attack was just to change her diet it needed to be far more aggressive diet it needed to be far more aggressive diet it needed to be far more aggressive than that what happened was it didn't than that what happened was it didn't than that what happened was it didn't work and it turns at stage four cancer work and it turns at stage four cancer work and it turns at stage four cancer and then it started affect all the and then it started affect all the and then it started affect all the teammates around her and a really really teammates around her and a really really teammates around her and a really really negative way to the point where and I negative way to the point where and I negative way to the point where and I could have dealt with this six months could have dealt with this six months could have dealt with this six months earlier in a better way if I've just earlier in a better way if I've just earlier in a better way if I've just would have been more intensive on this would have been more intensive on this would have been more intensive on this kind of conflict at the same time if you kind of conflict at the same time if you kind of conflict at the same time if you do it if you do take that approach I've do it if you do take that approach I've do it if you do take that approach I've got a guy right now in my life that we got a guy right now in my life that we got a guy right now in my life that we had we had we had to address some issues had we had we had to address some issues had we had we had to address some issues with him and he was in a leadership role with him and he was in a leadership role with him and he was in a leadership role things things were not going in the things things were not going in the things things were not going in the right direction I want to get details right direction I want to get details right direction I want to get details but got real direct got real real but got real direct got real real but got real direct got real real gracious but with a lot of truth early gracious but with a lot of truth early gracious but with a lot of truth early on with them and then the guy has just on with them and then the guy has just on with them and then the guy has just blossomed since now he's one of our one blossomed since now he's one of our one blossomed since now he's one of our one of a one of our best group leaders it's of a one of our best group leaders it's of a one of our best group leaders it's just walking with someone with the just walking with someone with the just walking with someone with the balance of grace and truth and not balance of grace and truth and not balance of grace and truth and not walking away if you want to if you want

walking away if you want to if you want walking away if you want to if you want to lead you're going to have to get in to lead you're going to have to get in to lead you're going to have to get in the trenches in the Trent get messy but the trenches in the Trent get messy but the trenches in the Trent get messy but you have to be real about it too yeah I you have to be real about it too yeah I you have to be real about it too yeah I was just coaching a young leader was just coaching a young leader was just coaching a young leader recently that leadership really is about recently that leadership really is about recently that leadership really is about taking responsibility and taking taking responsibility and taking taking responsibility and taking ownership and a part of this is you know ownership and a part of this is you know ownership and a part of this is you know it's kind of like the you know it's kind of like the you know it's kind of like the you know firefighters running towards fire in the firefighters running towards fire in the firefighters running towards fire in the same web leaders the leaders that I've same web leaders the leaders that I've same web leaders the leaders that I've respected in life you they notice a respected in life you they notice a respected in life you they notice a pattern of them going after conflict not pattern of them going after conflict not pattern of them going after conflict not not running away from it not shying away not running away from it not shying away not running away from it not shying away from it they're actually leaning in and from it they're actually leaning in and from it they're actually leaning in and saying why is it that this is bothering saying why is it that this is bothering saying why is it that this is bothering you or what is it about this that's you you or what is it about this that's you you or what is it about this that's you know rather than just you know dodging know rather than just you know dodging know rather than just you know dodging it for sure so we really good leaders it for sure so we really good leaders it for sure so we really good leaders have really tough skin with scars on have really tough skin with scars on have really tough skin with scars on their skin but they also have a really their skin but they also have a really their skin but they also have a really really soft arch that's kind of yeah really soft arch that's kind of yeah really soft arch that's kind of yeah absolutely that's very that's very good absolutely that's very that's very good absolutely that's very that's very good is there a particular area at over the is there a particular area at over the is there a particular area at over the years you've kind of noticed conflict in years you've kind of noticed conflict in years you've kind of noticed conflict in your church where you feel like there's your church where you feel like there's your church where you feel like there's some areas that are just prone for some areas that are just prone for some areas that are just prone for conflict that it just feels like this conflict that it just feels like this conflict that it just feels like this area is just you know it seems to be for area is just you know it seems to be for area is just you know it seems to be for whatever reason we can never get beyond whatever reason we can never get beyond whatever reason we can never get beyond it just seems to be a piece of the it just seems to be a piece of the it just seems to be a piece of the puzzle in that area yeah I would say in puzzle in that area yeah I would say in puzzle in that area yeah I would say in general change yeah is going to bring general change yeah is going to bring general change yeah is going to bring conflict but then specific conflict but then specific conflict but then specific is I would say would be worship is a big is I would say would be worship is a big is I would say would be worship is a big one just because I think worship is by one just because I think worship is by one just because I think worship is by far the most subjective ministry within far the most subjective ministry within far the most subjective ministry within the church everybody's an opinion the church everybody's an opinion the church everybody's an opinion everybody's got a style everybody's got everybody's got a style everybody's got everybody's got a style everybody's got their own philosophy and scripture just their own philosophy and scripture just their own philosophy and scripture just because it's a pretty wide range of go because it's a pretty wide range of go because it's a pretty wide range of go yeah I don't necessarily care about the yeah I don't necessarily care about the yeah I don't necessarily care about the model are you is your theology vertical model are you is your theology vertical model are you is your theology vertical in your worship are you honoring the

in your worship are you honoring the in your worship are you honoring the Lord go from there that's one area Lord go from there that's one area Lord go from there that's one area that's been a constant tension point for that's been a constant tension point for that's been a constant tension point for us that we've had to navigate as best we us that we've had to navigate as best we us that we've had to navigate as best we can I think we've done a good job with can I think we've done a good job with can I think we've done a good job with it but that constantly brings some it but that constantly brings some it but that constantly brings some tension and conflict to the point where tension and conflict to the point where tension and conflict to the point where we just have to realize this is never we just have to realize this is never we just have to realize this is never going to be a problem that we solved but going to be a problem that we solved but going to be a problem that we solved but attention that we have to manage be attention that we have to manage be attention that we have to manage be prepared for and be proactive with it prepared for and be proactive with it prepared for and be proactive with it what do you pull that apart a little what do you pull that apart a little what do you pull that apart a little more a problem to be solved versus more a problem to be solved versus more a problem to be solved versus attention to be managed what's the attention to be managed what's the attention to be managed what's the difference between those two that's a difference between those two that's a difference between those two that's a great thing so a problem will be solved great thing so a problem will be solved great thing so a problem will be solved is something that we can actually take is something that we can actually take is something that we can actually take an action on and it's done it shouldn't an action on and it's done it shouldn't an action on and it's done it shouldn't come up again attention that we're going come up again attention that we're going come up again attention that we're going to have to manage is something they will to have to manage is something they will to have to manage is something they will never ever see the end of it it will never ever see the end of it it will never ever see the end of it it will always be there but we have to be always be there but we have to be always be there but we have to be proactive in addressing it and being proactive in addressing it and being proactive in addressing it and being able to respond to it so with worship able to respond to it so with worship able to respond to it so with worship that's going to be an area where there's that's going to be an area where there's that's going to be an area where there's always tension because there's so many always tension because there's so many always tension because there's so many subjective philosophies to it a problem subjective philosophies to it a problem subjective philosophies to it a problem that we could solve would be hey a that we could solve would be hey a that we could solve would be hey a leader that's out of place stepped leader that's out of place stepped leader that's out of place stepped out of bounds well we're not going to out of bounds well we're not going to out of bounds well we're not going to have to manage that tension no we need have to manage that tension no we need have to manage that tension no we need to end that problem right now so can to end that problem right now so can to end that problem right now so can there be an end date to it can there be there be an end date to it can there be there be an end date to it can there be something that doesn't really needs to something that doesn't really needs to something that doesn't really needs to be done attention to be managed is not be done attention to be managed is not be done attention to be managed is not necessarily something bad something that necessarily something bad something that necessarily something bad something that can make us better if we manage it well can make us better if we manage it well can make us better if we manage it well it can sharpen us and push us to it can sharpen us and push us to it can sharpen us and push us to innovation and be better or if we don't innovation and be better or if we don't innovation and be better or if we don't manage it well it can turn into problems manage it well it can turn into problems manage it well it can turn into problems in coffee answer yes so example might be in coffee answer yes so example might be in coffee answer yes so example might be you know within the service programming you know within the service programming you know within the service programming area Sunday services it's like hey area Sunday services it's like hey area Sunday services it's like hey attention to be managed is we are always attention to be managed is we are always attention to be managed is we are always or a lot of churches would say you know or a lot of churches would say you know or a lot of churches would say you know we we want to both reach unchurched

we we want to both reach unchurched we we want to both reach unchurched people but then we also are trying to people but then we also are trying to people but then we also are trying to build up people who follow and rice and build up people who follow and rice and build up people who follow and rice and there's an inherent tension in those two there's an inherent tension in those two there's an inherent tension in those two and we're probably never going to nail and we're probably never going to nail and we're probably never going to nail it you know we're going to we're going it you know we're going to we're going it you know we're going to we're going to oscillate there it's going to be to oscillate there it's going to be to oscillate there it's going to be that's going to be tough like you said that's going to be tough like you said that's going to be tough like you said you know problems would be solved is you know problems would be solved is you know problems would be solved is either a leader stepped out of line or either a leader stepped out of line or either a leader stepped out of line or like there's a problem with our facility like there's a problem with our facility like there's a problem with our facility the lighting is too low you can't people the lighting is too low you can't people the lighting is too low you can't people can't see when they walk around in the can't see when they walk around in the can't see when they walk around in the bill bill bill that's a problem we can actually solve that's a problem we can actually solve that's a problem we can actually solve that that's that's within the realm of that that's that's within the realm of that that's that's within the realm of you know flexibility absolutely I think you know flexibility absolutely I think you know flexibility absolutely I think to something that's helped us a lot with to something that's helped us a lot with to something that's helped us a lot with that is being able to come up to people that is being able to come up to people that is being able to come up to people and even say from the stage our lead and even say from the stage our lead and even say from the stage our lead pastor said this I've said this in pastor said this I've said this in pastor said this I've said this in preaching hey there's things that we do preaching hey there's things that we do preaching hey there's things that we do here that I don't even like that right here that I don't even like that right here that I don't even like that right silly care this is not my choice but silly care this is not my choice but silly care this is not my choice but it's not about me right so we always go it's not about me right so we always go it's not about me right so we always go we like to say around here that the we like to say around here that the we like to say around here that the purpose is always more important than purpose is always more important than purpose is always more important than the preference hey you can have your the preference hey you can have your the preference hey you can have your preferences but the purpose is far more preferences but the purpose is far more preferences but the purpose is far more important so the purpose is glorified important so the purpose is glorified important so the purpose is glorified Christ let people come in and meet him Christ let people come in and meet him Christ let people come in and meet him for the first time and then grow in for the first time and then grow in for the first time and then grow in their faith that's what we're trying to their faith that's what we're trying to their faith that's what we're trying to do you can have your preference but it's do you can have your preference but it's do you can have your preference but it's not more important than the present than not more important than the present than not more important than the present than the purpose there's things that I have the purpose there's things that I have the purpose there's things that I have preferences on that we don't do here and preferences on that we don't do here and preferences on that we don't do here and then that's okay because it's not about then that's okay because it's not about then that's okay because it's not about me the people that have the largest me the people that have the largest me the people that have the largest voice that are that usually speak out voice that are that usually speak out voice that are that usually speak out about conflict that you hear the most about conflict that you hear the most about conflict that you hear the most are using the smallest percentage of are using the smallest percentage of are using the smallest percentage of people too okay don't don't be afraid of people too okay don't don't be afraid of people too okay don't don't be afraid of I'm hearing these voices these people I'm hearing these voices these people I'm hearing these voices these people that are that are disagreeing or having that are that are disagreeing or having that are that are disagreeing or having a hard time with this usually it's a a hard time with this usually it's a a hard time with this usually it's a very very small percentage of people very very small percentage of people very very small percentage of people don't listen to a small pew there could

don't listen to a small pew there could don't listen to a small pew there could be true than what they're saying but be true than what they're saying but be true than what they're saying but don't let that sway your emotion or the don't let that sway your emotion or the don't let that sway your emotion or the leadership that you a vision that you're leadership that you a vision that you're leadership that you a vision that you're trying to take just because a few people trying to take just because a few people trying to take just because a few people might be out of shape been out of shape might be out of shape been out of shape might be out of shape been out of shape about very cool well everything else you about very cool well everything else you about very cool well everything else you want to share about kind of conflict and want to share about kind of conflict and want to share about kind of conflict and how we can you know resolve it before I how we can you know resolve it before I how we can you know resolve it before I move on with the rest of our episodes move on with the rest of our episodes move on with the rest of our episodes man i would say being proactive with man i would say being proactive with man i would say being proactive with conflict is huge and that's something conflict is huge and that's something conflict is huge and that's something that that I think we bypass at times and that that I think we bypass at times and that that I think we bypass at times and there's a couple different ways I think there's a couple different ways I think there's a couple different ways I think that you can build build yourself up and that you can build build yourself up and that you can build build yourself up and be proactive to be prepared for conflict be proactive to be prepared for conflict be proactive to be prepared for conflict number one would be just and you build number one would be just and you build number one would be just and you build up equity in yourself as a leader up equity in yourself as a leader up equity in yourself as a leader there's something that this is an there's something that this is an there's something that this is an original with me a buddy of mine told me original with me a buddy of mine told me original with me a buddy of mine told me this years ago and I don't know where he this years ago and I don't know where he this years ago and I don't know where he got it from but I think there's three got it from but I think there's three got it from but I think there's three questions that every follower is asking questions that every follower is asking questions that every follower is asking of the people that are leaving them the of the people that are leaving them the of the people that are leaving them the three questions would be can I trust him three questions would be can I trust him three questions would be can I trust him or do they care about me and can they or do they care about me and can they or do they care about me and can they help me if they can answer yes to all help me if they can answer yes to all help me if they can answer yes to all three of those questions as a leader three of those questions as a leader three of those questions as a leader those people start to run through walls those people start to run through walls those people start to run through walls for you so have you built up trust with for you so have you built up trust with for you so have you built up trust with them if I if I've made enough deposits them if I if I've made enough deposits them if I if I've made enough deposits and some and some and some life that whenever I do have to make a life that whenever I do have to make a life that whenever I do have to make a withdrawal that they're going to listen withdrawal that they're going to listen withdrawal that they're going to listen because I trust Matt I understand I know because I trust Matt I understand I know because I trust Matt I understand I know that he's for me I know that he can help that he's for me I know that he can help that he's for me I know that he can help me he's built in to me he's developed me me he's built in to me he's developed me me he's built in to me he's developed me he supported me and then he cares about he supported me and then he cares about he supported me and then he cares about me the guy actually does care about me me the guy actually does care about me me the guy actually does care about me so whenever he makes this change if so whenever he makes this change if so whenever he makes this change if we're going in a different direction if we're going in a different direction if we're going in a different direction if I don't understand something well I know I don't understand something well I know I don't understand something well I know that all three of those things are true that all three of those things are true that all three of those things are true so I'm going to trust him I'm going to so I'm going to trust him I'm going to so I'm going to trust him I'm going to listen to what he has to say that's huge listen to what he has to say that's huge listen to what he has to say that's huge being able to build in equity I think a

being able to build in equity I think a being able to build in equity I think a lot of times we talk about criticism or lot of times we talk about criticism or lot of times we talk about criticism or change to help develop you build them up change to help develop you build them up change to help develop you build them up if all we do is build build people with if all we do is build build people with if all we do is build build people with criticism or change your coaching that's criticism or change your coaching that's criticism or change your coaching that's like building a great ship but it just like building a great ship but it just like building a great ship but it just sits in the harbor encouragement is the sits in the harbor encouragement is the sits in the harbor encouragement is the wind that goes in the sales and actually wind that goes in the sales and actually wind that goes in the sales and actually move the ship so it's got to be a move the ship so it's got to be a move the ship so it's got to be a balance of both so have you developed balance of both so have you developed balance of both so have you developed enough equity in yourself as a leader enough equity in yourself as a leader enough equity in yourself as a leader that at the point where you have to make that at the point where you have to make that at the point where you have to make a change or running the conflict you've a change or running the conflict you've a change or running the conflict you've got enough ships on your side of the got enough ships on your side of the got enough ships on your side of the table that she can cash them in and table that she can cash them in and table that she can cash them in and people will say you know what I trust a people will say you know what I trust a people will say you know what I trust a guy I know he loves me I know he cares guy I know he loves me I know he cares guy I know he loves me I know he cares about me I know he can know I know he about me I know he can know I know he about me I know he can know I know he can help me or else go even though I can help me or else go even though I can help me or else go even though I might not understand or agree with it a might not understand or agree with it a might not understand or agree with it a follower this is the unset Maneri follower this is the unset Maneri follower this is the unset Maneri podcast stuff you wish they taught at podcast stuff you wish they taught at podcast stuff you wish they taught at seminary well we're going to jump into seminary well we're going to jump into seminary well we're going to jump into the lightning round that part of the the lightning round that part of the the lightning round that part of the episode where we ask similar questions episode where we ask similar questions episode where we ask similar questions of everybody that's on the episode today of everybody that's on the episode today of everybody that's on the episode today super honored to have Matt hassle with super honored to have Matt hassle with super honored to have Matt hassle with us from traders point christian church us from traders point christian church us from traders point christian church it's a fantastic interview today Matt it's a fantastic interview today Matt it's a fantastic interview today Matt what's an online resource that you're what's an online resource that you're what's an online resource that you're using that's helping you and your using that's helping you and your using that's helping you and your ministry I'm kind of boring but i would ministry I'm kind of boring but i would ministry I'm kind of boring but i would say Evernote is huge for picnics just say Evernote is huge for picnics just say Evernote is huge for picnics just from an organizational standpoint I like from an organizational standpoint I like from an organizational standpoint I like high level thinking envision so Evernote high level thinking envision so Evernote high level thinking envision so Evernote is the thing that keeps me organized I is the thing that keeps me organized I is the thing that keeps me organized I need it nice what's a book you've read need it nice what's a book you've read need it nice what's a book you've read in the last pattern oh maybe six months in the last pattern oh maybe six months in the last pattern oh maybe six months to a year that's influencing your to a year that's influencing your to a year that's influencing your thinking or ministry they wanna there's thinking or ministry they wanna there's thinking or ministry they wanna there's there's quite a few the one that's there's quite a few the one that's there's quite a few the one that's really impacted me in the last six really impacted me in the last six really impacted me in the last six months is a book called leadership pain months is a book called leadership pain months is a book called leadership pain by same Chan classic if you read the by same Chan classic if you read the by same Chan classic if you read the book at it's great such a good lucky to book at it's great such a good lucky to book at it's great such a good lucky to basically the gist of the book is you basically the gist of the book is you basically the gist of the book is you you will only grow in your leadership to

you will only grow in your leadership to you will only grow in your leadership to the threshold of your pain great the threshold of your pain great the threshold of your pain great phenomenal books absolutely yeah we we phenomenal books absolutely yeah we we phenomenal books absolutely yeah we we read that you know as a leadership team read that you know as a leadership team read that you know as a leadership team and there is so true as a church grows and there is so true as a church grows and there is so true as a church grows that's not like a theoretical thing it's that's not like a theoretical thing it's that's not like a theoretical thing it's true true true they just you know pain is a part of they just you know pain is a part of they just you know pain is a part of leadership it's a great book it's a leadership it's a great book it's a leadership it's a great book it's a great book for sure what's another great book for sure what's another great book for sure what's another ministry that you're looking to that's ministry that you're looking to that's ministry that you're looking to that's kind of inspiring is if you're looking kind of inspiring is if you're looking kind of inspiring is if you're looking to you're like wow they're doing some to you're like wow they're doing some to you're like wow they're doing some cool stuff there's multiple churches cool stuff there's multiple churches cool stuff there's multiple churches right now they're just they're blowing right now they're just they're blowing right now they're just they're blowing my mind and inspiring but there's one my mind and inspiring but there's one my mind and inspiring but there's one particular global partner that we have particular global partner that we have particular global partner that we have it's in in the Middle East I can't tell it's in in the Middle East I can't tell it's in in the Middle East I can't tell you the country or the name of the you the country or the name of the you the country or the name of the organization just for safety purposes organization just for safety purposes organization just for safety purposes this particular ministry has planted 15 this particular ministry has planted 15 this particular ministry has planted 15 churches in a city of 5 million that is churches in a city of 5 million that is churches in a city of 5 million that is extremely extremely hostile to the extremely extremely hostile to the extremely extremely hostile to the gospel they have church members that get gospel they have church members that get gospel they have church members that get claw their churches on a monthly basis claw their churches on a monthly basis claw their churches on a monthly basis and are literally executed in the and are literally executed in the and are literally executed in the streets cancel the gospel I've seen the streets cancel the gospel I've seen the streets cancel the gospel I've seen the pictures of it but the faith that they pictures of it but the faith that they pictures of it but the faith that they have is incredible now they are building have is incredible now they are building have is incredible now they are building a hospital in the city of 5 million that a hospital in the city of 5 million that a hospital in the city of 5 million that doesn't have a hospital and basically doesn't have a hospital and basically doesn't have a hospital and basically they're doing it to take care of the they're doing it to take care of the they're doing it to take care of the needs of the people that are persecuting needs of the people that are persecuting needs of the people that are persecuting them that means they're responding to them that means they're responding to them that means they're responding to persecution with grace and generosity persecution with grace and generosity persecution with grace and generosity it's incredible that's amazing that's it's incredible that's amazing that's it's incredible that's amazing that's such a cool story I love hearing that such a cool story I love hearing that such a cool story I love hearing that and obviously it's great to be exposed and obviously it's great to be exposed and obviously it's great to be exposed to global global leaders who are in to global global leaders who are in to global global leaders who are in those environments that you know it's those environments that you know it's those environments that you know it's humbling for us right it's something humbling for us right it's something humbling for us right it's something this young man I'm not sure I would lead this young man I'm not sure I would lead this young man I'm not sure I would lead in that environment wealthy it's got in that environment wealthy it's got in that environment wealthy it's got check on ebay absolutely for sure if you check on ebay absolutely for sure if you check on ebay absolutely for sure if you could get 15 minutes with any leader

could get 15 minutes with any leader could get 15 minutes with any leader alive who would that want to be with and alive who would that want to be with and alive who would that want to be with and why that's such a great question in why that's such a great question in why that's such a great question in there are too many leaders that I there are too many leaders that I there are too many leaders that I working with but my gut the first thing working with but my gut the first thing working with but my gut the first thing that comes into my head politics aside that comes into my head politics aside that comes into my head politics aside would be the president of the United would be the president of the United would be the president of the United States okay thank you the he is the States okay thank you the he is the States okay thank you the he is the leader of the free world has more leader of the free world has more leader of the free world has more influence than anyone on the planet I'm influence than anyone on the planet I'm influence than anyone on the planet I'm sure whoever the president is regardless sure whoever the president is regardless sure whoever the president is regardless of politics again some good leadership of politics again some good leadership of politics again some good leadership lessons absolutely for sure well I can lessons absolutely for sure well I can lessons absolutely for sure well I can imagine leading you know it takes a lot imagine leading you know it takes a lot imagine leading you know it takes a lot at trader's point takes a lot out of you at trader's point takes a lot out of you at trader's point takes a lot out of you what do you do for fun we just want to what do you do for fun we just want to what do you do for fun we just want to kick back relax have you know have some kick back relax have you know have some kick back relax have you know have some fun and that's so important is being fun and that's so important is being fun and that's so important is being able to have fun and kick back he got to able to have fun and kick back he got to able to have fun and kick back he got to be able to release pressure I'm a sports be able to release pressure I'm a sports be able to release pressure I'm a sports guy love to watch and play sports go guy love to watch and play sports go guy love to watch and play sports go football basketball you got me you got football basketball you got me you got football basketball you got me you got me well Matt I appreciate you being on me well Matt I appreciate you being on me well Matt I appreciate you being on the show today if people want to get in the show today if people want to get in the show today if people want to get in touch with the church what's the best touch with the church what's the best touch with the church what's the best way for them to do that or with way for them to do that or with way for them to do that or with you our website wwtp Sea Org you can you our website wwtp Sea Org you can you our website wwtp Sea Org you can find my information on the website or find my information on the website or find my information on the website or just show up here one of our locations just show up here one of our locations just show up here one of our locations on the weekend thanks so much my on the weekend thanks so much my on the weekend thanks so much my appreciate me on the show today thanks appreciate me on the show today thanks appreciate me on the show today thanks rich thank you for tuning in to this rich thank you for tuning in to this rich thank you for tuning in to this week's unsung re podcast don't be shy week's unsung re podcast don't be shy week's unsung re podcast don't be shy we'd love to connect check out on we'd love to connect check out on we'd love to connect check out on seminary inbox you can sign up at seminary inbox you can sign up at seminary inbox you can sign up at unfeminine calm and Wilson you helpful unfeminine calm and Wilson you helpful unfeminine calm and Wilson you helpful training resources every week plus training resources every week plus training resources every week plus you'll gain immediate access to our you'll gain immediate access to our you'll gain immediate access to our exclusive members area with tons of exclusive members area with tons of exclusive members area with tons of resources you can use connect with rich resources you can use connect with rich resources you can use connect with rich on Twitter add rich birch or through on Twitter add rich birch or through on Twitter add rich birch or through email rich a ton seminary calm don't

email rich a ton seminary calm don't email rich a ton seminary calm don't forget to check out the show notes for forget to check out the show notes for forget to check out the show notes for this episode a ton seminary calm it this episode a ton seminary calm it this episode a ton seminary calm it includes links to what we talked about includes links to what we talked about includes links to what we talked about today and more leave a comment we'd love today and more leave a comment we'd love today and more leave a comment we'd love to hear from you did you enjoy today's to hear from you did you enjoy today's to hear from you did you enjoy today's episode drop by itunes and leave a episode drop by itunes and leave a episode drop by itunes and leave a review thanks again for tuning into this review thanks again for tuning into this review thanks again for tuning into this week on seminary podcast join us next week on seminary podcast join us next week on seminary podcast join us next week when we'll learn more stuff we wish week when we'll learn more stuff we wish week when we'll learn more stuff we wish they taught in seminary they taught in seminary they taught in seminary [Music]