John Cox on Actionable Leadership Development Frameworks

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unset Maneri everybody welcome to the unset Maneri podcast my name is rich I'm so glad that podcast my name is rich I'm so glad that podcast my name is rich I'm so glad that you decided to spend some time with us I you decided to spend some time with us I you decided to spend some time with us I know as you're heading into this weekend know as you're heading into this weekend know as you're heading into this weekend you've got a lot going on at your church you've got a lot going on at your church you've got a lot going on at your church and it's really our honor that you would and it's really our honor that you would and it's really our honor that you would take some time out to listen in to take some time out to listen in to take some time out to listen in to today's conversation and you are in for today's conversation and you are in for today's conversation and you are in for a treat we are super excited to have a treat we are super excited to have a treat we are super excited to have John Cox with us from watermark church John Cox with us from watermark church John Cox with us from watermark church this is a fantastic church if you're not this is a fantastic church if you're not this is a fantastic church if you're not following watermark you really should be following watermark you really should be following watermark you really should be there in dallas-fort worth I think there in dallas-fort worth I think there in dallas-fort worth I think they're averaging 13 14 thousand people they're averaging 13 14 thousand people they're averaging 13 14 thousand people on a weekend they have three different on a weekend they have three different on a weekend they have three different campuses it's really a great church campuses it's really a great church campuses it's really a great church welcome to the show John well it's glad welcome to the show John well it's glad welcome to the show John well it's glad to be here thanks for having me on rent to be here thanks for having me on rent to be here thanks for having me on rent why don't you give us for people who why don't you give us for people who why don't you give us for people who don't know give us a sense of watermark

don't know give us a sense of watermark don't know give us a sense of watermark kind of what would people experience in kind of what would people experience in kind of what would people experience in your ministry yeah well watermark is a your ministry yeah well watermark is a your ministry yeah well watermark is a young church it's about 15 years old and young church it's about 15 years old and young church it's about 15 years old and the real focus is is trying to reach the real focus is is trying to reach the real focus is is trying to reach people who have either been turned off people who have either been turned off people who have either been turned off by church or there you know I warily by church or there you know I warily by church or there you know I warily walked away and inviting them back to walked away and inviting them back to walked away and inviting them back to experience what it means to have a experience what it means to have a experience what it means to have a relationship with Jesus and so we relationship with Jesus and so we relationship with Jesus and so we started about 15 years ago and over time started about 15 years ago and over time started about 15 years ago and over time it is just grown and grown and so you it is just grown and grown and so you it is just grown and grown and so you know one of our big challenges has been know one of our big challenges has been know one of our big challenges has been obviously how do we accommodate that obviously how do we accommodate that obviously how do we accommodate that growth mm-hmm what do you give us a growth mm-hmm what do you give us a growth mm-hmm what do you give us a sense of what you were talking a little sense of what you were talking a little sense of what you were talking a little bit earlier about kind of obviously what bit earlier about kind of obviously what bit earlier about kind of obviously what happens on the weekends but then you happens on the weekends but then you happens on the weekends but then you also do a series of ministries during also do a series of ministries during also do a series of ministries during the week as well that might be the week as well that might be the week as well that might be interesting for people to hear a little interesting for people to hear a little interesting for people to hear a little bit about yes so what we would say is bit about yes so what we would say is bit about yes so what we would say is you know water you know water you know water mark is not primarily a Sunday centric mark is not primarily a Sunday centric mark is not primarily a Sunday centric church right it's it's really a church church right it's it's really a church church right it's it's really a church where a lot of people their first where a lot of people their first where a lot of people their first contact is during the week and so contact is during the week and so contact is during the week and so they're through what we would just call they're through what we would just call they're through what we would just call side doors and essentially what that is side doors and essentially what that is side doors and essentially what that is is someone will have a felt need and is someone will have a felt need and is someone will have a felt need and they might they not think about going to they might they not think about going to they might they not think about going to church as a first step but they want to church as a first step but they want to church as a first step but they want to deal with the felt need so for example deal with the felt need so for example deal with the felt need so for example on Monday nights you know we've got a on Monday nights you know we've got a on Monday nights you know we've got a big recovery ministry yes there's a lot big recovery ministry yes there's a lot big recovery ministry yes there's a lot of people in our community who are of people in our community who are of people in our community who are saying hey life is not working for me saying hey life is not working for me saying hey life is not working for me I'm stuck and and I want to deal with I'm stuck and and I want to deal with I'm stuck and and I want to deal with that you know and tangentially you know that you know and tangentially you know that you know and tangentially you know church may or may not be a felt need for church may or may not be a felt need for church may or may not be a felt need for them right or on Tuesday nights we've them right or on Tuesday nights we've them right or on Tuesday nights we've got a large young adult ministry okay got a large young adult ministry okay got a large young adult ministry okay and someone who's moving to Dallas might and someone who's moving to Dallas might and someone who's moving to Dallas might think to themselves okay you know i have think to themselves okay you know i have think to themselves okay you know i have a felt need to meet people or you know i a felt need to meet people or you know i a felt need to meet people or you know i want to get plugged in and i want to want to get plugged in and i want to want to get plugged in and i want to build relationships and so a lot of build relationships and so a lot of build relationships and so a lot of people will end up here and in both of

people will end up here and in both of people will end up here and in both of those ministries what's interesting is those ministries what's interesting is those ministries what's interesting is only about half of the people that come only about half of the people that come only about half of the people that come our watermark people Andrus at the other our watermark people Andrus at the other our watermark people Andrus at the other half you know are largely disconnected half you know are largely disconnected half you know are largely disconnected from churches huh and so that's the from churches huh and so that's the from churches huh and so that's the great thing it's really been the side great thing it's really been the side great thing it's really been the side door to experience you know our church door to experience you know our church door to experience you know our church and then from there that's a point where and then from there that's a point where and then from there that's a point where they start going yeah you know last one they start going yeah you know last one they start going yeah you know last one okay no I was going to say you know a okay no I was going to say you know a okay no I was going to say you know a lot of people wake up in the middle of lot of people wake up in the middle of lot of people wake up in the middle of night worrying about those types of night worrying about those types of night worrying about those types of issues they often don't wake up worrying issues they often don't wake up worrying issues they often don't wake up worrying about what we're talking about on the about what we're talking about on the about what we're talking about on the weekend and so I love that idea of a weekend and so I love that idea of a weekend and so I love that idea of a side door what was that what was the side door what was that what was the side door what was that what was the other night the other one was our other night the other one was our other night the other one was our marriage ministry you know several years marriage ministry you know several years marriage ministry you know several years ago we were in a position where we were ago we were in a position where we were ago we were in a position where we were just getting tired playing defense on just getting tired playing defense on just getting tired playing defense on marriage you know where we when they marriage you know where we when they marriage you know where we when they would get to us they were already in big would get to us they were already in big would get to us they were already in big trouble approvals and so you know we trouble approvals and so you know we trouble approvals and so you know we started in ministry it's just called started in ministry it's just called started in ministry it's just called reengage and it's designed you know reengage and it's designed you know reengage and it's designed you know wherever your marriage is is to help wherever your marriage is is to help wherever your marriage is is to help make it better and so what happens a lot make it better and so what happens a lot make it better and so what happens a lot in our community as you well know is in our community as you well know is in our community as you well know is this you know people's marriages aren't this you know people's marriages aren't this you know people's marriages aren't what they hope they would be and so that what they hope they would be and so that what they hope they would be and so that will be their first point of contact will be their first point of contact will be their first point of contact usually it's the wife you know you usually it's the wife you know you usually it's the wife you know you played in your hands it is to not work played in your hands it is to not work played in your hands it is to not work day we need to do something here yes we day we need to do something here yes we day we need to do something here yes we do and so they'll show up at watermark do and so they'll show up at watermark do and so they'll show up at watermark to focus on their marriage and then to focus on their marriage and then to focus on their marriage and then that's another entry point now that's that's another entry point now that's that's another entry point now that's interesting that's fascinating that you interesting that's fascinating that you interesting that's fascinating that you know you're about fifty percent of the know you're about fifty percent of the know you're about fifty percent of the people that are engaging midweek are you people that are engaging midweek are you people that are engaging midweek are you know actually watermark people that show know actually watermark people that show know actually watermark people that show up on the weekend is that is that been up on the weekend is that is that been up on the weekend is that is that been pretty consistent over the last couple pretty consistent over the last couple pretty consistent over the last couple years that's an interesting you know years that's an interesting you know years that's an interesting you know pattern it's been very pattern it's been very pattern it's been very assistant and what's interesting you assistant and what's interesting you assistant and what's interesting you know is is obviously in Dallas you know know is is obviously in Dallas you know know is is obviously in Dallas you know we're kind of at the heart of the Bible we're kind of at the heart of the Bible we're kind of at the heart of the Bible Belt and so what happens is a lot of

Belt and so what happens is a lot of Belt and so what happens is a lot of people not many people think of people not many people think of people not many people think of themselves as unbelievers right and so themselves as unbelievers right and so themselves as unbelievers right and so you know that doesn't mean that they're you know that doesn't mean that they're you know that doesn't mean that they're you know engaging in their faith or you know engaging in their faith or you know engaging in their faith or they're growing in their faith but they're growing in their faith but they're growing in their faith but they've got some background that says they've got some background that says they've got some background that says hey this is not a foreign experience for hey this is not a foreign experience for hey this is not a foreign experience for me and so there's an openness to show up me and so there's an openness to show up me and so there's an openness to show up at a church to say you know I need to at a church to say you know I need to at a church to say you know I need to make my marriage better and so that make my marriage better and so that make my marriage better and so that what's that's what draws them in and you what's that's what draws them in and you what's that's what draws them in and you know then what happens obviously is with know then what happens obviously is with know then what happens obviously is with a larger Church sometimes you know a larger Church sometimes you know a larger Church sometimes you know people are that are smaller churches people are that are smaller churches people are that are smaller churches don't have these ministries right okay don't have these ministries right okay don't have these ministries right okay and so they're able to come as well very and so they're able to come as well very and so they're able to come as well very cool well that obviously takes a lot of cool well that obviously takes a lot of cool well that obviously takes a lot of leaders to pull all that together you leaders to pull all that together you leaders to pull all that together you know I I really commend your church for know I I really commend your church for know I I really commend your church for really stepping out you know and serving really stepping out you know and serving really stepping out you know and serving from a you know felt needs point of view from a you know felt needs point of view from a you know felt needs point of view and then obviously just everything that and then obviously just everything that and then obviously just everything that it takes to make the weekend work in a it takes to make the weekend work in a it takes to make the weekend work in a church like yours how are you developing church like yours how are you developing church like yours how are you developing leaders at and that's obviously not a leaders at and that's obviously not a leaders at and that's obviously not a simple question at watermark but let me simple question at watermark but let me simple question at watermark but let me double jump into some of the things that double jump into some of the things that double jump into some of the things that you learned over the years yeah well and you learned over the years yeah well and you learned over the years yeah well and what I'll tell you that's been one of what I'll tell you that's been one of what I'll tell you that's been one of our biggest problems right and so you our biggest problems right and so you our biggest problems right and so you know what we would say is is when it know what we would say is is when it know what we would say is is when it comes to anything you know there's no comes to anything you know there's no comes to anything you know there's no perfect model but you get to choose your perfect model but you get to choose your perfect model but you get to choose your problems and so you know the problem problems and so you know the problem problems and so you know the problem that we're choosing is is okay how are that we're choosing is is okay how are that we're choosing is is okay how are we developing new leaders kind of on the we developing new leaders kind of on the we developing new leaders kind of on the go who can we can throw into the water go who can we can throw into the water go who can we can throw into the water and teach them how to lead as they're and teach them how to lead as they're and teach them how to lead as they're going and what we've really found is is going and what we've really found is is going and what we've really found is is that you can probably segment the that you can probably segment the that you can probably segment the leaders that are coming into your church leaders that are coming into your church leaders that are coming into your church right the top 20% they're naturally right the top 20% they're naturally right the top 20% they're naturally gifted right and they're going to figure gifted right and they're going to figure gifted right and they're going to figure it out on their own right all right so it out on their own right all right so it out on their own right all right so with experience you know they've got with experience you know they've got with experience you know they've got gifts and leadership and shepherding and

gifts and leadership and shepherding and gifts and leadership and shepherding and and they just figure it out but there's and they just figure it out but there's and they just figure it out but there's another big chunk of people you know another big chunk of people you know another big chunk of people you know let's say the middle sixty percent mmm let's say the middle sixty percent mmm let's say the middle sixty percent mmm want to be good leaders they're not want to be good leaders they're not want to be good leaders they're not going to figure it out on their own going to figure it out on their own going to figure it out on their own mm-hmm it's a process of coming mm-hmm it's a process of coming mm-hmm it's a process of coming alongside of them and saying hey here alongside of them and saying hey here alongside of them and saying hey here are some footholds now they that will are some footholds now they that will are some footholds now they that will help you to become a better leader and help you to become a better leader and help you to become a better leader and so you know with coaching that's the so you know with coaching that's the so you know with coaching that's the targeted group where if you can help targeted group where if you can help targeted group where if you can help those people to become leaders now those people to become leaders now those people to become leaders now you've got enough leaders for your you've got enough leaders for your you've got enough leaders for your church Absalom on the gifted once it's church Absalom on the gifted once it's church Absalom on the gifted once it's not going to work for you no absolutely not going to work for you no absolutely not going to work for you no absolutely i think i've said this is so many church i think i've said this is so many church i think i've said this is so many church leaders so many times church leaders our leaders so many times church leaders our leaders so many times church leaders our churches are led by early adopters and churches are led by early adopters and churches are led by early adopters and so they just they think everyone is so they just they think everyone is so they just they think everyone is like them they think everyone is just like them they think everyone is just like them they think everyone is just like a go get it let's jump out there like a go get it let's jump out there like a go get it let's jump out there and make things happen the reality of it and make things happen the reality of it and make things happen the reality of it is that's just a small percentage of the is that's just a small percentage of the is that's just a small percentage of the leaders in your church you know trying leaders in your church you know trying leaders in your church you know trying to really connect with like you say that to really connect with like you say that to really connect with like you say that middle sixty percent is obviously you middle sixty percent is obviously you middle sixty percent is obviously you know really where the game is that to know really where the game is that to know really where the game is that to try to get both enough and then also try to get both enough and then also try to get both enough and then also grow them so what are you doing to kind grow them so what are you doing to kind grow them so what are you doing to kind of you know what are you kind of working of you know what are you kind of working of you know what are you kind of working towards what are the tactics you're towards what are the tactics you're towards what are the tactics you're using to kind of attract and then using to kind of attract and then using to kind of attract and then interact with that you know that middle interact with that you know that middle interact with that you know that middle sixty percent well the first thing that sixty percent well the first thing that sixty percent well the first thing that we do is we obviously give people we do is we obviously give people we do is we obviously give people opportunities to lead right word we're opportunities to lead right word we're opportunities to lead right word we're not afraid to take chances and can put not afraid to take chances and can put not afraid to take chances and can put people who might not be mature in their people who might not be mature in their people who might not be mature in their faith into leadership positions okay and faith into leadership positions okay and faith into leadership positions okay and and what we realize is when you do that and what we realize is when you do that and what we realize is when you do that people all of a sudden go oh my goodness people all of a sudden go oh my goodness people all of a sudden go oh my goodness I'm in over my head thanks and then that I'm in over my head thanks and then that I'm in over my head thanks and then that makes them thirsty now they're now makes them thirsty now they're now makes them thirsty now they're now they're teachable right and so then what they're teachable right and so then what they're teachable right and so then what we try and do is focus on hey what are we try and do is focus on hey what are we try and do is focus on hey what are three or four key things that if they

three or four key things that if they three or four key things that if they focus on will be catalytic in terms of focus on will be catalytic in terms of focus on will be catalytic in terms of development of their leadership and so development of their leadership and so development of their leadership and so it's trying to give them a framework it's trying to give them a framework it's trying to give them a framework that they can apply and it's got to be that they can apply and it's got to be that they can apply and it's got to be simple but it's got to be simple on the simple but it's got to be simple on the simple but it's got to be simple on the other side of complexity absolutely so other side of complexity absolutely so other side of complexity absolutely so tell us what some of those things would tell us what some of those things would tell us what some of those things would be what would be you know kind of those be what would be you know kind of those be what would be you know kind of those three or four kind of pieces that you three or four kind of pieces that you three or four kind of pieces that you would try to work on well what we would would try to work on well what we would would try to work on well what we would say is it all starts with leading say is it all starts with leading say is it all starts with leading yourself okay and so if you can't lead yourself okay and so if you can't lead yourself okay and so if you can't lead yourself well you're not going to be yourself well you're not going to be yourself well you're not going to be able to lead anybody else well and able to lead anybody else well and able to lead anybody else well and that's the hardest thing for us to do in that's the hardest thing for us to do in that's the hardest thing for us to do in ministry that's artist thing for me to ministry that's artist thing for me to ministry that's artist thing for me to do if I can please myself right then I'm do if I can please myself right then I'm do if I can please myself right then I'm fifty percent of the way there yes and fifty percent of the way there yes and fifty percent of the way there yes and so what we just sense they say is look so what we just sense they say is look so what we just sense they say is look we think there are three keys deleting we think there are three keys deleting we think there are three keys deleting yourself well the first is is walking yourself well the first is is walking yourself well the first is is walking with Jesus and you know that's just John with Jesus and you know that's just John with Jesus and you know that's just John 15 5 you can't do anything apart from 15 5 you can't do anything apart from 15 5 you can't do anything apart from Jesus but we've got a lot of people who Jesus but we've got a lot of people who Jesus but we've got a lot of people who think they can be ministry leaders think they can be ministry leaders think they can be ministry leaders without walking with Jesus right round without walking with Jesus right round without walking with Jesus right round yes and so that's the start and and yes and so that's the start and and yes and so that's the start and and really coming along and saying look if really coming along and saying look if really coming along and saying look if you're with someone for any extended you're with someone for any extended you're with someone for any extended period of time what you say doesn't period of time what you say doesn't period of time what you say doesn't matter right how you live and so the matter right how you live and so the matter right how you live and so the people that have had the biggest people that have had the biggest people that have had the biggest influence on me I can you know not influence on me I can you know not influence on me I can you know not really remember much of what they said really remember much of what they said really remember much of what they said but i can tell you dozens of stories of but i can tell you dozens of stories of but i can tell you dozens of stories of how they lived that have impacted me how they lived that have impacted me how they lived that have impacted me know it's powerful its powerful so know it's powerful its powerful so know it's powerful its powerful so that's the first thing the second thing that's the first thing the second thing that's the first thing the second thing is they've really got to understand is they've really got to understand is they've really got to understand what their gifts are and then use their what their gifts are and then use their what their gifts are and then use their gifts now and so one of the things that gifts now and so one of the things that gifts now and so one of the things that we've discovered is is that the hardest we've discovered is is that the hardest we've discovered is is that the hardest people to work with in ministry are the people to work with in ministry are the people to work with in ministry are the ones that are deceived about what their ones that are deceived about what their ones that are deceived about what their gifts are okay yeah you know and look

gifts are okay yeah you know and look gifts are okay yeah you know and look that was me yeah so you know a long time that was me yeah so you know a long time that was me yeah so you know a long time ago when I was starting a church I ago when I was starting a church I ago when I was starting a church I thought I was a great communicator and thought I was a great communicator and thought I was a great communicator and and so what happened though was this you and so what happened though was this you and so what happened though was this you know once you start speaking every know once you start speaking every know once you start speaking every Sunday you quickly realize that it's not Sunday you quickly realize that it's not Sunday you quickly realize that it's not enough to be a communicator you've got enough to be a communicator you've got enough to be a communicator you've got to be creative right because if you're to be creative right because if you're to be creative right because if you're not creative that sucks up so much not creative that sucks up so much not creative that sucks up so much energy yes you know and so you've told energy yes you know and so you've told energy yes you know and so you've told all your best stories and all of your all your best stories and all of your all your best stories and all of your good insights into the scriptures and good insights into the scriptures and good insights into the scriptures and now you're in trouble right that's what now you're in trouble right that's what now you're in trouble right that's what happened to me yes and so um you know happened to me yes and so um you know happened to me yes and so um you know it's a discovery process I think that it's a discovery process I think that it's a discovery process I think that steps back and saying okay what am I steps back and saying okay what am I steps back and saying okay what am I good at mm-hmm in second you know now good at mm-hmm in second you know now good at mm-hmm in second you know now let me go to my friends around me who let me go to my friends around me who let me go to my friends around me who will speak truth to me and and get will speak truth to me and and get will speak truth to me and and get feedback and confirmation about that and feedback and confirmation about that and feedback and confirmation about that and then words identify those things didn't then words identify those things didn't then words identify those things didn't working on the thing I like you're working on the thing I like you're working on the thing I like you're talking about there is I think so many talking about there is I think so many talking about there is I think so many times in this step we just say here's a times in this step we just say here's a times in this step we just say here's a test take this online test take this test take this online test take this test take this online test take this thing obviously that might be a part of thing obviously that might be a part of thing obviously that might be a part of your process but you're also trying to your process but you're also trying to your process but you're also trying to talk about other people what other talk about other people what other talk about other people what other people say you know really the body you people say you know really the body you people say you know really the body you know speaking into what people's gifts know speaking into what people's gifts know speaking into what people's gifts are help us understand how you help are help us understand how you help are help us understand how you help people discover their gifts yeah so people discover their gifts yeah so people discover their gifts yeah so largely it's by observation right so largely it's by observation right so largely it's by observation right so that's really the essence of coaching is that's really the essence of coaching is that's really the essence of coaching is you know when i'm looking at someone you know when i'm looking at someone you know when i'm looking at someone trying to say where are they adding trying to say where are they adding trying to say where are they adding value for us you know where are they value for us you know where are they value for us you know where are they exceptional and so what i would say you exceptional and so what i would say you exceptional and so what i would say you know on a scale of 1 to 10 where 10 is know on a scale of 1 to 10 where 10 is know on a scale of 1 to 10 where 10 is someone who's terrific at something and someone who's terrific at something and someone who's terrific at something and someone who would a 1 and they're someone who would a 1 and they're someone who would a 1 and they're terrible at it it's easy to spot the terrible at it it's easy to spot the terrible at it it's easy to spot the ones and twos right people that are just ones and twos right people that are just ones and twos right people that are just not gifted at all it's easy to spot the not gifted at all it's easy to spot the not gifted at all it's easy to spot the people that are 9s and 10s mm-hmm where

people that are 9s and 10s mm-hmm where people that are 9s and 10s mm-hmm where you can wrap yourself around the axle is you can wrap yourself around the axle is you can wrap yourself around the axle is this someone a four or five or six than this someone a four or five or six than this someone a four or five or six than ever okay that's where you get duck and ever okay that's where you get duck and ever okay that's where you get duck and so I think the essence of coaching is so I think the essence of coaching is so I think the essence of coaching is saying you know not where they are for saying you know not where they are for saying you know not where they are for five or six and can I move them up but five or six and can I move them up but five or six and can I move them up but it's where can they be a nine or a ten it's where can they be a nine or a ten it's where can they be a nine or a ten that's the question we really want to that's the question we really want to that's the question we really want to ask and so that is a discovery process a ask and so that is a discovery process a ask and so that is a discovery process a lot of times it's trial and error it lot of times it's trial and error it lot of times it's trial and error it takes time but if the commitment to walk takes time but if the commitment to walk takes time but if the commitment to walk in with someone over a period which is in with someone over a period which is in with someone over a period which is saying hey I see this in you saying hey I see this in you saying hey I see this in you think you can be really good at it now think you can be really good at it now think you can be really good at it now how are you how are you scaling that how are you how are you scaling that how are you how are you scaling that obviously have a lot of people in your obviously have a lot of people in your obviously have a lot of people in your in yet ministry how are you able to in yet ministry how are you able to in yet ministry how are you able to scale that observation process that scale that observation process that scale that observation process that sounds like a great ideal yeah but how sounds like a great ideal yeah but how sounds like a great ideal yeah but how do you how are you doing that on such a do you how are you doing that on such a do you how are you doing that on such a mass scale so what we're doing is we're mass scale so what we're doing is we're mass scale so what we're doing is we're teaching our leaders to ask three teaching our leaders to ask three teaching our leaders to ask three questions okay the first question is questions okay the first question is questions okay the first question is obviously says okay what is this person obviously says okay what is this person obviously says okay what is this person doing that they should keep doing right doing that they should keep doing right doing that they should keep doing right so this is focused on behaviors but it's so this is focused on behaviors but it's so this is focused on behaviors but it's this is where I see where they're adding this is where I see where they're adding this is where I see where they're adding value this is where I see where they're value this is where I see where they're value this is where I see where they're contributing to the team and this is contributing to the team and this is contributing to the team and this is where they should really lock down so where they should really lock down so where they should really lock down so the first question right is what do I the first question right is what do I the first question right is what do I want to reinforce or a firm and I want want to reinforce or a firm and I want want to reinforce or a firm and I want that behavior repeated right the second that behavior repeated right the second that behavior repeated right the second question is the antithesis of that right question is the antithesis of that right question is the antithesis of that right which is what are they doing that they which is what are they doing that they which is what are they doing that they need to stop doing right what's getting need to stop doing right what's getting need to stop doing right what's getting in their way so let me give you an in their way so let me give you an in their way so let me give you an example you know several years ago we example you know several years ago we example you know several years ago we had a guy working for me who is as good had a guy working for me who is as good had a guy working for me who is as good at what he did is anybody I know right at what he did is anybody I know right at what he did is anybody I know right he was outstanding but he had this one he was outstanding but he had this one he was outstanding but he had this one trait that we was hurting his leadership trait that we was hurting his leadership trait that we was hurting his leadership and that is you know when something went and that is you know when something went and that is you know when something went wrong he lost his marbles okay and uh

wrong he lost his marbles okay and uh wrong he lost his marbles okay and uh you know and so I you know in our you know and so I you know in our you know and so I you know in our language we'd say he was a stress language we'd say he was a stress language we'd say he was a stress amplifier hmm that's good though he amplifier hmm that's good though he amplifier hmm that's good though he would start blaming people and he would would start blaming people and he would would start blaming people and he would start being critical and the end result start being critical and the end result start being critical and the end result was people didn't want to work with him was people didn't want to work with him was people didn't want to work with him hmm and so the essence of coaching hmm and so the essence of coaching hmm and so the essence of coaching someone there is he saying hey you know someone there is he saying hey you know someone there is he saying hey you know what here's everything that you're good what here's everything that you're good what here's everything that you're good at keep doing these things now here's at keep doing these things now here's at keep doing these things now here's this one thing that you got to stop this one thing that you got to stop this one thing that you got to stop because it hurting your leadership right because it hurting your leadership right because it hurting your leadership right and so you know it's it's just like and so you know it's it's just like and so you know it's it's just like discipleship where you say hey there are discipleship where you say hey there are discipleship where you say hey there are some things did you do that will help some things did you do that will help some things did you do that will help you grow in your relationship with god you grow in your relationship with god you grow in your relationship with god and there are also obstacles mm-hmm that and there are also obstacles mm-hmm that and there are also obstacles mm-hmm that can potentially sink you did you write can potentially sink you did you write can potentially sink you did you write so it's what should they keep doing what so it's what should they keep doing what so it's what should they keep doing what they stopped doing the last question they stopped doing the last question they stopped doing the last question we're trying to teach them to ask is is we're trying to teach them to ask is is we're trying to teach them to ask is is what is the person not doing that if what is the person not doing that if what is the person not doing that if they started to do would make the they started to do would make the they started to do would make the biggest difference in their performance biggest difference in their performance biggest difference in their performance mmm very good and so if we can just mmm very good and so if we can just mmm very good and so if we can just identify one thing to make them better identify one thing to make them better identify one thing to make them better mm-hmm we find is is those three mm-hmm we find is is those three mm-hmm we find is is those three questions are simple right memorable and questions are simple right memorable and questions are simple right memorable and we can teach our people to apply them so we can teach our people to apply them so we can teach our people to apply them so what I want them to do is every time what I want them to do is every time what I want them to do is every time they're in an in action with the leader they're in an in action with the leader they're in an in action with the leader be thinking about those three things be thinking about those three things be thinking about those three things right she's okay what do I see this right she's okay what do I see this right she's okay what do I see this person doing that I wanted to keep doing person doing that I wanted to keep doing person doing that I wanted to keep doing right what do I see him doing that I right what do I see him doing that I right what do I see him doing that I want them to stop doing want them to stop doing want them to stop doing it the correspondingly what are they not it the correspondingly what are they not it the correspondingly what are they not doing what one thing that if they doing what one thing that if they doing what one thing that if they started doing would make the biggest started doing would make the biggest started doing would make the biggest difference in their leadership very cool difference in their leadership very cool difference in their leadership very cool that's great that's great um what's next that's great that's great um what's next that's great that's great um what's next what out what I can what's the next the what out what I can what's the next the what out what I can what's the next the third piece of this puzzle as yours yes third piece of this puzzle as yours yes third piece of this puzzle as yours yes the dirties in yourself puzzle right is the dirties in yourself puzzle right is the dirties in yourself puzzle right is this I think you know what we would say this I think you know what we would say this I think you know what we would say is is when it comes to giftedness you is is when it comes to giftedness you is is when it comes to giftedness you want to focus on your strengths okay want to focus on your strengths okay want to focus on your strengths okay when it comes to character you want to

when it comes to character you want to when it comes to character you want to focus on your weaknesses and so what we focus on your weaknesses and so what we focus on your weaknesses and so what we see in leadership is that people have see in leadership is that people have see in leadership is that people have potential fatal flaws these are the potential fatal flaws these are the potential fatal flaws these are the things about them that God needs to things about them that God needs to things about them that God needs to refine to hone but if they get into refine to hone but if they get into refine to hone but if they get into trouble this is the most likely reason trouble this is the most likely reason trouble this is the most likely reason why they're going to end up in a ditch why they're going to end up in a ditch why they're going to end up in a ditch okay and though we want to come okay and though we want to come okay and though we want to come alongside of people and say look if alongside of people and say look if alongside of people and say look if you're going to disqualify yourself if you're going to disqualify yourself if you're going to disqualify yourself if you're going to discredit yourself what you're going to discredit yourself what you're going to discredit yourself what is the most likely reason and then is the most likely reason and then is the most likely reason and then what's your plan for dealing with that what's your plan for dealing with that what's your plan for dealing with that so let me give you a good example yeah so let me give you a good example yeah so let me give you a good example yeah exactly I've got five kids right and so exactly I've got five kids right and so exactly I've got five kids right and so one of the issues i have in my house is one of the issues i have in my house is one of the issues i have in my house is dealing with anger okay right and my dealing with anger okay right and my dealing with anger okay right and my typical pattern is I'm calm I'm calm I'm typical pattern is I'm calm I'm calm I'm typical pattern is I'm calm I'm calm I'm calm I've had it um we can identify oh calm I've had it um we can identify oh calm I've had it um we can identify oh that ya know so so several years ago my that ya know so so several years ago my that ya know so so several years ago my wife's family lives in Tennessee which wife's family lives in Tennessee which wife's family lives in Tennessee which is about 700 miles away yep and so we is about 700 miles away yep and so we is about 700 miles away yep and so we load up our family of seven in our load up our family of seven in our load up our family of seven in our little mini van and we start the trip little mini van and we start the trip little mini van and we start the trip back to Tennessee and in the far back back to Tennessee and in the far back back to Tennessee and in the far back two of my kids are getting into it and two of my kids are getting into it and two of my kids are getting into it and you know and I could just feel my blood you know and I could just feel my blood you know and I could just feel my blood pressure starting to go up and so uh you pressure starting to go up and so uh you pressure starting to go up and so uh you know I'm threatening them I'm cajoling know I'm threatening them I'm cajoling know I'm threatening them I'm cajoling them I'm thinking about bribing them and them I'm thinking about bribing them and them I'm thinking about bribing them and it's not working and this is about 10 it's not working and this is about 10 it's not working and this is about 10 minutes into the trip right I'm like I'm minutes into the trip right I'm like I'm minutes into the trip right I'm like I'm not gonna make it right yes and so I not gonna make it right yes and so I not gonna make it right yes and so I think to myself okay what am I gonna do think to myself okay what am I gonna do think to myself okay what am I gonna do right and so one thing i can do is i can right and so one thing i can do is i can right and so one thing i can do is i can stop the car and get out and deal with stop the car and get out and deal with stop the car and get out and deal with it right but i'm a typical guy i am not it right but i'm a typical guy i am not it right but i'm a typical guy i am not stopping the car right MC right um and

stopping the car right MC right um and stopping the car right MC right um and so then I think well what can I throw so then I think well what can I throw so then I think well what can I throw back there to get their attention and so back there to get their attention and so back there to get their attention and so I look downright I see this full water I look downright I see this full water I look downright I see this full water bottle right next to long ago and I'm bottle right next to long ago and I'm bottle right next to long ago and I'm like okay that might hurt right but then like okay that might hurt right but then like okay that might hurt right but then I see a tissue box and so you know I've I see a tissue box and so you know I've I see a tissue box and so you know I've got one hand on the wheel and I just got one hand on the wheel and I just got one hand on the wheel and I just launch it back at the one child who was launch it back at the one child who was launch it back at the one child who was the genesis of all of this come the genesis of all of this come the genesis of all of this come no and and I miss her but I hit her no and and I miss her but I hit her no and and I miss her but I hit her sister right breaks out hysterically sister right breaks out hysterically sister right breaks out hysterically crying yes and um and you know me and crying yes and um and you know me and crying yes and um and you know me and all my maturity I'm thinking well good all my maturity I'm thinking well good all my maturity I'm thinking well good at least she has something to be upset at least she has something to be upset at least she has something to be upset about now no and um and so I'm still about now no and um and so I'm still about now no and um and so I'm still driving the car and it's like 1,001 driving the car and it's like 1,001 driving the car and it's like 1,001 1,002 1,003 and the tissue box comes 1,002 1,003 and the tissue box comes 1,002 1,003 and the tissue box comes flying back oh I hits the dashboard flying back oh I hits the dashboard flying back oh I hits the dashboard right and my first thought is okay who right and my first thought is okay who right and my first thought is okay who wants a part of me yes um but but then I wants a part of me yes um but but then I wants a part of me yes um but but then I thought to myself oh my goodness what am thought to myself oh my goodness what am thought to myself oh my goodness what am i teaching my kids about how to deal i teaching my kids about how to deal i teaching my kids about how to deal with anger right you know and so rich with anger right you know and so rich with anger right you know and so rich the issue that I've got being a father the issue that I've got being a father the issue that I've got being a father the thing that can sink me is is if my the thing that can sink me is is if my the thing that can sink me is is if my kids to grow up thinking they had an kids to grow up thinking they had an kids to grow up thinking they had an angry dad you know so-and-so at home angry dad you know so-and-so at home angry dad you know so-and-so at home that is my Achilles heel that is my that is my Achilles heel that is my that is my Achilles heel that is my potential fatal flaw and if I don't have potential fatal flaw and if I don't have potential fatal flaw and if I don't have a plan to deal with that then I'm in big a plan to deal with that then I'm in big a plan to deal with that then I'm in big trouble right so like my plan is I've trouble right so like my plan is I've trouble right so like my plan is I've got an accountability group of guys who got an accountability group of guys who got an accountability group of guys who just about every week will say to me hey just about every week will say to me hey just about every week will say to me hey when's the last time that you raised when's the last time that you raised when's the last time that you raised your voice with one of your kids right your voice with one of your kids right your voice with one of your kids right and so that helps you know scripture and so that helps you know scripture and so that helps you know scripture memory helps in that so hopefully God is memory helps in that so hopefully God is memory helps in that so hopefully God is transforming me but I think identifying

transforming me but I think identifying transforming me but I think identifying that issue is a big part because if you that issue is a big part because if you that issue is a big part because if you don't identify it and if you don't have don't identify it and if you don't have don't identify it and if you don't have a plan in place it's gonna catch you a plan in place it's gonna catch you a plan in place it's gonna catch you unaware absolutely and you know did you unaware absolutely and you know did you unaware absolutely and you know did you know there we could talk about dozens of know there we could talk about dozens of know there we could talk about dozens of biblical leaders mm-hmm or sunk by their biblical leaders mm-hmm or sunk by their biblical leaders mm-hmm or sunk by their fatal flaw absolutely and what I love fatal flaw absolutely and what I love fatal flaw absolutely and what I love that you're even just raising that that you're even just raising that that you're even just raising that you're having your leaders raise that you're having your leaders raise that you're having your leaders raise that with people because i think it's those with people because i think it's those with people because i think it's those kind of crucial conversations that it's kind of crucial conversations that it's kind of crucial conversations that it's easy to steer away from right it's easy easy to steer away from right it's easy easy to steer away from right it's easy to say hey you know I don't want to ask to say hey you know I don't want to ask to say hey you know I don't want to ask you about this because a lot of times I you about this because a lot of times I you about this because a lot of times I know at least in my life I feel like know at least in my life I feel like know at least in my life I feel like other people see my flaws a lot easier other people see my flaws a lot easier other people see my flaws a lot easier than I do like you know other people who than I do like you know other people who than I do like you know other people who trusts me and I trust them you know they trusts me and I trust them you know they trusts me and I trust them you know they see it you know more clearly than I do see it you know more clearly than I do see it you know more clearly than I do and is are you providing a forum for and is are you providing a forum for and is are you providing a forum for those conversations are you kind of those conversations are you kind of those conversations are you kind of saying hey this should be a regular part saying hey this should be a regular part saying hey this should be a regular part of your pattern with the people you're of your pattern with the people you're of your pattern with the people you're leading what does that look like yes and leading what does that look like yes and leading what does that look like yes and that's exactly right i mean i think that's exactly right i mean i think that's exactly right i mean i think again what we've got to do is see people again what we've got to do is see people again what we've got to do is see people can't do 50 things but they can do three can't do 50 things but they can do three can't do 50 things but they can do three or four things right and so if I'm or four things right and so if I'm or four things right and so if I'm training my leaders to you know saying training my leaders to you know saying training my leaders to you know saying okay are the people underneath you okay are the people underneath you okay are the people underneath you are they walking with Jesus okay what are they walking with Jesus okay what are they walking with Jesus okay what are they guess their gifts and are they are they guess their gifts and are they are they guess their gifts and are they doubling down on their gifts and then doubling down on their gifts and then doubling down on their gifts and then correspondingly what are their potential correspondingly what are their potential correspondingly what are their potential fatal flaws and how are they dealing fatal flaws and how are they dealing fatal flaws and how are they dealing with them so you know so one of the with them so you know so one of the with them so you know so one of the questions will often ask is will just go questions will often ask is will just go questions will often ask is will just go around the circle in my community group around the circle in my community group around the circle in my community group and will say hey here's where I think and will say hey here's where I think and will say hey here's where I think you're excelling here's where I think you're excelling here's where I think you're excelling here's where I think your potential fatal flaws are and you your potential fatal flaws are and you your potential fatal flaws are and you know here's how I see you dealing well know here's how I see you dealing well know here's how I see you dealing well with that now or not but it's a part of with that now or not but it's a part of with that now or not but it's a part of that dialogue you know and and I don't

that dialogue you know and and I don't that dialogue you know and and I don't know about you but I grew up in a family know about you but I grew up in a family know about you but I grew up in a family where you projected strengths and you where you projected strengths and you where you projected strengths and you hid weaknesses that's so true and so the hid weaknesses that's so true and so the hid weaknesses that's so true and so the whole idea that you would talk about whole idea that you would talk about whole idea that you would talk about what you're not good at UM you know what you're not good at UM you know what you're not good at UM you know which is not a good thing now my I was which is not a good thing now my I was which is not a good thing now my I was the opposite okay and so early in our the opposite okay and so early in our the opposite okay and so early in our marriage we would be out of dinner with marriage we would be out of dinner with marriage we would be out of dinner with another couple and she would be telling another couple and she would be telling another couple and she would be telling a story which cast us in and you know a story which cast us in and you know a story which cast us in and you know like a less than favorable light have like a less than favorable light have like a less than favorable light have chicken or under the table Congress chicken or under the table Congress chicken or under the table Congress during that right but I think that during that right but I think that during that right but I think that understanding that that is a process understanding that that is a process understanding that that is a process that God uses to create growth in us and that God uses to create growth in us and that God uses to create growth in us and then coming to grips with my own then coming to grips with my own then coming to grips with my own imperfections um that's something that imperfections um that's something that imperfections um that's something that we've got a transfer so that people are we've got a transfer so that people are we've got a transfer so that people are comfortable I'm talking about those comfortable I'm talking about those comfortable I'm talking about those things absolutely well this has been things absolutely well this has been things absolutely well this has been this has been incredible lots of great this has been incredible lots of great this has been incredible lots of great value here good kind of tools the thing value here good kind of tools the thing value here good kind of tools the thing I don't want people eaters to miss is I I don't want people eaters to miss is I I don't want people eaters to miss is I think of the beauty of what you're doing think of the beauty of what you're doing think of the beauty of what you're doing here is you are trying to get it down to here is you are trying to get it down to here is you are trying to get it down to the irreducible you know the smallest the irreducible you know the smallest the irreducible you know the smallest piece possible and really trying to push piece possible and really trying to push piece possible and really trying to push that out to folks and saying let's that out to folks and saying let's that out to folks and saying let's actually have these conversations right actually have these conversations right actually have these conversations right let's then we've got 100 conversations let's then we've got 100 conversations let's then we've got 100 conversations we could have these are the three we're we could have these are the three we're we could have these are the three we're going to talk about let's focus on these going to talk about let's focus on these going to talk about let's focus on these things which i think is a you know huge things which i think is a you know huge things which i think is a you know huge value for folks that may be listening in value for folks that may be listening in value for folks that may be listening in today on the on the podcast anything today on the on the podcast anything today on the on the podcast anything else you'd like to share before we move else you'd like to share before we move else you'd like to share before we move on to the rest there's a lot we could on to the rest there's a lot we could on to the rest there's a lot we could cover in this whole area but anything cover in this whole area but anything cover in this whole area but anything else you'd like to share before we pivot else you'd like to share before we pivot else you'd like to share before we pivot and move on with the rest of the episode and move on with the rest of the episode and move on with the rest of the episode yeah I think there's just a couple of yeah I think there's just a couple of yeah I think there's just a couple of things yes one thing I would say is you things yes one thing I would say is you things yes one thing I would say is you know you're communicating something well know you're communicating something well know you're communicating something well when people begin to mock you that's so when people begin to mock you that's so when people begin to mock you that's so Joe if people are not mocking you you Joe if people are not mocking you you Joe if people are not mocking you you have not talked about it enough this is

have not talked about it enough this is have not talked about it enough this is so true you know and so I think one of so true you know and so I think one of so true you know and so I think one of the keys with these three principles or the keys with these three principles or the keys with these three principles or any principle phrases is you I'll feel any principle phrases is you I'll feel any principle phrases is you I'll feel like I've said it once and everyone gets like I've said it once and everyone gets like I've said it once and everyone gets it right but what I really need to it right but what I really need to it right but what I really need to realize is unless I'm reinforcing that realize is unless I'm reinforcing that realize is unless I'm reinforcing that return then I'm not doing it enough once return then I'm not doing it enough once return then I'm not doing it enough once I'm being mocked now I can feel I'm being mocked now I can feel I'm being mocked now I can feel confident that people are getting the confident that people are getting the confident that people are getting the message that's so true you know i know message that's so true you know i know message that's so true you know i know sometimes as leaders as we're sometimes as leaders as we're sometimes as leaders as we're formulating these that it's been baking formulating these that it's been baking formulating these that it's been baking in our minds for a long time and so by in our minds for a long time and so by in our minds for a long time and so by the time we actually say okay let's roll the time we actually say okay let's roll the time we actually say okay let's roll this out whether it's a change this out whether it's a change this out whether it's a change initiative or whether it's you know this initiative or whether it's you know this initiative or whether it's you know this sort of conversations we've lived with sort of conversations we've lived with sort of conversations we've lived with it for a long time our people the first it for a long time our people the first it for a long time our people the first time we talked about it is literally the time we talked about it is literally the time we talked about it is literally the first time they're even thinking about first time they're even thinking about first time they're even thinking about it and so we've got a repeated time in a it and so we've got a repeated time in a it and so we've got a repeated time in a timeout anything else you want to share timeout anything else you want to share timeout anything else you want to share before we before you know the other before we before you know the other before we before you know the other thing I think it would say is look a lot thing I think it would say is look a lot thing I think it would say is look a lot of this is creating a culture where this of this is creating a culture where this of this is creating a culture where this becomes normal and so I think a lot of becomes normal and so I think a lot of becomes normal and so I think a lot of times when church leaders run into times when church leaders run into times when church leaders run into problems their first thought is is problems their first thought is is problems their first thought is is what's a program to solve this problem what's a program to solve this problem what's a program to solve this problem right and I think average leaders think right and I think average leaders think right and I think average leaders think program first the good leaders think program first the good leaders think program first the good leaders think what's the value first and so you know what's the value first and so you know what's the value first and so you know just a quick example is if I'm just a quick example is if I'm just a quick example is if I'm struggling with evangelism at watermark struggling with evangelism at watermark struggling with evangelism at watermark right an average leader would say what's right an average leader would say what's right an average leader would say what's an evangelism program that I can teach an evangelism program that I can teach an evangelism program that I can teach my people so they're sharing right I my people so they're sharing right I my people so they're sharing right I think what America would say no no you think what America would say no no you think what America would say no no you have a values problem and the value is have a values problem and the value is have a values problem and the value is is that people are not grasping at a is that people are not grasping at a is that people are not grasping at a heart level that their next door heart level that their next door heart level that their next door neighbor who doesn't know Jesus is not neighbor who doesn't know Jesus is not neighbor who doesn't know Jesus is not it's going to end up separated from him it's going to end up separated from him it's going to end up separated from him forever and that once they have the

forever and that once they have the forever and that once they have the value then it's much easier to create value then it's much easier to create value then it's much easier to create the behavior and so in this leadership the behavior and so in this leadership the behavior and so in this leadership you know whether it's dealing with your you know whether it's dealing with your you know whether it's dealing with your fatal flaws and saying look we have a fatal flaws and saying look we have a fatal flaws and saying look we have a value of authenticity and we as leaders value of authenticity and we as leaders value of authenticity and we as leaders are going to model our weak points so are going to model our weak points so are going to model our weak points so that people understand that's accepted that people understand that's accepted that people understand that's accepted normal and okay and so you know the normal and okay and so you know the normal and okay and so you know the behavior that the leader shows is what's behavior that the leader shows is what's behavior that the leader shows is what's going to get repeated them in the people going to get repeated them in the people going to get repeated them in the people and so you got a modeling this is the and so you got a modeling this is the and so you got a modeling this is the uncinate podcast stuff you wish they uncinate podcast stuff you wish they uncinate podcast stuff you wish they taught in seminary we're going to jump taught in seminary we're going to jump taught in seminary we're going to jump into the lightning round that part of into the lightning round that part of into the lightning round that part of the episode where we ask similar the episode where we ask similar the episode where we ask similar questions of everybody that's on the questions of everybody that's on the questions of everybody that's on the episode today we've been super episode today we've been super episode today we've been super privileged honored to have John Cox with privileged honored to have John Cox with privileged honored to have John Cox with us from watermark church it's a great us from watermark church it's a great us from watermark church it's a great conversation I'm just so glad you've conversation I'm just so glad you've conversation I'm just so glad you've been with us today John what's an online been with us today John what's an online been with us today John what's an online resource that you've been using these resource that you've been using these resource that you've been using these days that's been helping you in your days that's been helping you in your days that's been helping you in your ministry yeah you know the couple that I ministry yeah you know the couple that I ministry yeah you know the couple that I would say one that people might not be would say one that people might not be would say one that people might not be worth is something called sandbox worth is something called sandbox worth is something called sandbox and same box is just an online tool that and same box is just an online tool that and same box is just an online tool that sorts through your email and helps you sorts through your email and helps you sorts through your email and helps you to prioritize ok this is the email that to prioritize ok this is the email that to prioritize ok this is the email that I need to get to yes and then there's a I need to get to yes and then there's a I need to get to yes and then there's a whole other set of email that is you whole other set of email that is you whole other set of email that is you know stuff that can wait for later yes know stuff that can wait for later yes know stuff that can wait for later yes and and what has really helped me you and and what has really helped me you and and what has really helped me you know email can consume me yes and so know email can consume me yes and so know email can consume me yes and so getting someone to get it sorted out getting someone to get it sorted out getting someone to get it sorted out before it hits me has been really before it hits me has been really before it hits me has been really helpful absolutely and you know as so helpful absolutely and you know as so helpful absolutely and you know as so many church leaders I think we've many church leaders I think we've many church leaders I think we've mistaken that we think our job is mistaken that we think our job is mistaken that we think our job is actually to answer email and it's not actually to answer email and it's not actually to answer email and it's not it's so much more than that what's a it's so much more than that what's a it's so much more than that what's a book you've read in the last six months

book you've read in the last six months book you've read in the last six months that's shaping your you're thinking in that's shaping your you're thinking in that's shaping your you're thinking in ministry you know I probably there's two ministry you know I probably there's two ministry you know I probably there's two there's um one book what to ask the there's um one book what to ask the there's um one book what to ask the person in the mirror ok that's a book by person in the mirror ok that's a book by person in the mirror ok that's a book by a guy named Robert Kaplan who was the a guy named Robert Kaplan who was the a guy named Robert Kaplan who was the vice chairman at Goldman Sachs and now vice chairman at Goldman Sachs and now vice chairman at Goldman Sachs and now is a teacher at Harvard Business School is a teacher at Harvard Business School is a teacher at Harvard Business School and essentially it's a book it's about and essentially it's a book it's about and essentially it's a book it's about self development and leadership and what self development and leadership and what self development and leadership and what he says is look early in your career you he says is look early in your career you he says is look early in your career you get lots of guidance coaching but as you get lots of guidance coaching but as you get lots of guidance coaching but as you progress in your career you have more progress in your career you have more progress in your career you have more and more autonomy and so what happens is and more autonomy and so what happens is and more autonomy and so what happens is guys make mistakes and they end up off guys make mistakes and they end up off guys make mistakes and they end up off the path but there is no one there to the path but there is no one there to the path but there is no one there to help them correct and so oftentimes by help them correct and so oftentimes by help them correct and so oftentimes by the time they realize it's too late the time they realize it's too late the time they realize it's too late right and so he's developed a whole set right and so he's developed a whole set right and so he's developed a whole set of questions which says here questions of questions which says here questions of questions which says here questions that a leader should ask to help get that a leader should ask to help get that a leader should ask to help get themselves back on track and rich or not themselves back on track and rich or not themselves back on track and rich or not the thing I thought fine with ministers the thing I thought fine with ministers the thing I thought fine with ministers is there's so much autonomy and our jobs is there's so much autonomy and our jobs is there's so much autonomy and our jobs yes that if we are not leading ourselves yes that if we are not leading ourselves yes that if we are not leading ourselves well in that area we're in big trouble well in that area we're in big trouble well in that area we're in big trouble that's a good book yep the other one that's a good book yep the other one that's a good book yep the other one that people might be ashamed i just that people might be ashamed i just that people might be ashamed i just finished last night is a book called finished last night is a book called finished last night is a book called extreme leadership okay and written by a extreme leadership okay and written by a extreme leadership okay and written by a couple of Navy SEAL guys what you're couple of Navy SEAL guys what you're couple of Navy SEAL guys what you're talking about here's how the principles talking about here's how the principles talking about here's how the principles we learned in terms of team building and we learned in terms of team building and we learned in terms of team building and leading can apply in a business context leading can apply in a business context leading can apply in a business context and that's a terrific book you know just and that's a terrific book you know just and that's a terrific book you know just one of the things I've taken away is he one of the things I've taken away is he one of the things I've taken away is he says you know leaders get what they says you know leaders get what they says you know leaders get what they tolerate mmm and so when you see tolerate mmm and so when you see tolerate mmm and so when you see behavior and you know if you tolerate behavior and you know if you tolerate behavior and you know if you tolerate that that's going to get repeated in that that's going to get repeated in that that's going to get repeated in your culture oh wow that's good and so

your culture oh wow that's good and so your culture oh wow that's good and so you know I'm learning that at home you know I'm learning that at home you know I'm learning that at home now especially with my oldest 15 yes now especially with my oldest 15 yes now especially with my oldest 15 yes okay what is the behavior that I'm okay what is the behavior that I'm okay what is the behavior that I'm tolerating yes vs. where my drop on the tolerating yes vs. where my drop on the tolerating yes vs. where my drop on the line very cool great what's another line very cool great what's another line very cool great what's another ministry you're looking to these days ministry you're looking to these days ministry you're looking to these days that's inspiring you you know that that's inspiring you you know that that's inspiring you you know that probably the one that most inspires me probably the one that most inspires me probably the one that most inspires me right now is ijm which is international right now is ijm which is international right now is ijm which is international justice fantastic great people and uh justice fantastic great people and uh justice fantastic great people and uh you know what I love about them is as you know what I love about them is as you know what I love about them is as they are taking the skills that God's they are taking the skills that God's they are taking the skills that God's given them and they're applying them in given them and they're applying them in given them and they're applying them in such a way to advance the kingdom but such a way to advance the kingdom but such a way to advance the kingdom but it's it's prayer focused they understand it's it's prayer focused they understand it's it's prayer focused they understand that they're doing everything they can that they're doing everything they can that they're doing everything they can to work at it from the bottom up you to work at it from the bottom up you to work at it from the bottom up you know and and it's a hall it's a long know and and it's a hall it's a long know and and it's a hall it's a long haul in many of these places I'm very haul in many of these places I'm very haul in many of these places I'm very very dark situations and they are very dark situations and they are very dark situations and they are shining light mm-hmm I'm into very dark shining light mm-hmm I'm into very dark shining light mm-hmm I'm into very dark places and I just love the places and I just love the places and I just love the courageousness and in their approach courageousness and in their approach courageousness and in their approach absolutely that's great if you could get absolutely that's great if you could get absolutely that's great if you could get 15 minutes with any leader alive who 15 minutes with any leader alive who 15 minutes with any leader alive who would you want to get that with and why would you want to get that with and why would you want to get that with and why oh my those are a good question um I oh my those are a good question um I oh my those are a good question um I think there's probably a couple of think there's probably a couple of think there's probably a couple of liters that stand out for me yes there liters that stand out for me yes there liters that stand out for me yes there were just guys who had a big influence were just guys who had a big influence were just guys who had a big influence on my thinking over the years yes right on my thinking over the years yes right on my thinking over the years yes right and so you know one of those guys would and so you know one of those guys would and so you know one of those guys would be Bill Hybels out of Willow Creek in be Bill Hybels out of Willow Creek in be Bill Hybels out of Willow Creek in Chicago yes um he is a very clear Chicago yes um he is a very clear Chicago yes um he is a very clear thinker yeah and it's just always been thinker yeah and it's just always been thinker yeah and it's just always been very helpful in terms of you know very helpful in terms of you know very helpful in terms of you know helping me with my leadership experience helping me with my leadership experience helping me with my leadership experience so I can learn some lessons the easy way so I can learn some lessons the easy way so I can learn some lessons the easy way from him yes and I don't have to learn from him yes and I don't have to learn from him yes and I don't have to learn the hard way yeah Absalom dang you know the hard way yeah Absalom dang you know the hard way yeah Absalom dang you know another one probably is Jim Collins Oh another one probably is Jim Collins Oh another one probably is Jim Collins Oh is a very similar person in the business

is a very similar person in the business is a very similar person in the business world yes right it was very insightful world yes right it was very insightful world yes right it was very insightful very thoughtful but is able to boil very thoughtful but is able to boil very thoughtful but is able to boil things down words saying if you were things down words saying if you were things down words saying if you were leaving an organization right here are a leaving an organization right here are a leaving an organization right here are a half dozen things that really make a half dozen things that really make a half dozen things that really make a difference and so you know here's a book difference and so you know here's a book difference and so you know here's a book good degrade in the social sectors is good degrade in the social sectors is good degrade in the social sectors is terrific for church leaders absolutely terrific for church leaders absolutely terrific for church leaders absolutely fantastic both great leaders definitely fantastic both great leaders definitely fantastic both great leaders definitely well I'm sure leading at watermark is is well I'm sure leading at watermark is is well I'm sure leading at watermark is is fairly consuming and you've given us a fairly consuming and you've given us a fairly consuming and you've given us a little bit of insight into your personal little bit of insight into your personal little bit of insight into your personal life but what do you do today you know life but what do you do today you know life but what do you do today you know just kind of relax and kick back when just kind of relax and kick back when just kind of relax and kick back when you're you know not busy busy busy at you're you know not busy busy busy at you're you know not busy busy busy at the church yeah well you know I the church yeah well you know I the church yeah well you know I mentioned earlier that I've got five mentioned earlier that I've got five mentioned earlier that I've got five kids yeah that can't you that keeps you kids yeah that can't you that keeps you kids yeah that can't you that keeps you busy that keeps me busy but one of the busy that keeps me busy but one of the busy that keeps me busy but one of the things i love doing with them just things i love doing with them just things i love doing with them just coaching just their YMCA sports teams oh coaching just their YMCA sports teams oh coaching just their YMCA sports teams oh nice nice nice and you know it's it's one thing what's and you know it's it's one thing what's and you know it's it's one thing what's really interesting is you know my really interesting is you know my really interesting is you know my youngest now is in third grade but what youngest now is in third grade but what youngest now is in third grade but what I find is is that so much of that I find is is that so much of that I find is is that so much of that applies to my job at work you know it's applies to my job at work you know it's applies to my job at work you know it's a so with third graders what you got to a so with third graders what you got to a so with third graders what you got to realize is encouragement is everything realize is encouragement is everything realize is encouragement is everything right yes you definitely them to love right yes you definitely them to love right yes you definitely them to love the sport if they love it they'll stay the sport if they love it they'll stay the sport if they love it they'll stay with it yes and and there's lots of with it yes and and there's lots of with it yes and and there's lots of times when I think man if I only let it times when I think man if I only let it times when I think man if I only let it work the way I teach my greater right work the way I teach my greater right work the way I teach my greater right I'd be a much more effective leader yeah I'd be a much more effective leader yeah I'd be a much more effective leader yeah i'm looking at you know I I like to work i'm looking at you know I I like to work i'm looking at you know I I like to work out uh occasionally you know it helps me out uh occasionally you know it helps me out uh occasionally you know it helps me pretend I'm not the age that I'm at yes pretend I'm not the age that I'm at yes pretend I'm not the age that I'm at yes and then I like reading that's no and then I like reading that's no and then I like reading that's no surprise three big things very cool well surprise three big things very cool well surprise three big things very cool well John this has been great to have you on John this has been great to have you on John this has been great to have you on the episode today thank you so much for the episode today thank you so much for the episode today thank you so much for taking time out and investing in the taking time out and investing in the taking time out and investing in the leaders that are listening in today if leaders that are listening in today if leaders that are listening in today if people want to get in touch with you or

people want to get in touch with you or people want to get in touch with you or with the church what's the best way for with the church what's the best way for with the church what's the best way for them to do that yeah there's two ways them to do that yeah there's two ways them to do that yeah there's two ways they can do that one is is there welcome they can do that one is is there welcome they can do that one is is there welcome to just email me here o at watermark you to just email me here o at watermark you to just email me here o at watermark you know my it's just J the first initial JC know my it's just J the first initial JC know my it's just J the first initial JC 0 X at watermark dot org great or you 0 X at watermark dot org great or you 0 X at watermark dot org great or you know I'm just starting with my own know I'm just starting with my own know I'm just starting with my own website blog great and they find out at website blog great and they find out at website blog great and they find out at just john s as in sam cox com great well just john s as in sam cox com great well just john s as in sam cox com great well thanks John really appreciate be on the thanks John really appreciate be on the thanks John really appreciate be on the show today we hope you have a great show today we hope you have a great show today we hope you have a great weekend alright thanks so much rich i weekend alright thanks so much rich i weekend alright thanks so much rich i appreciate your the opportunity thank appreciate your the opportunity thank appreciate your the opportunity thank you for tuning in to this week's unsung you for tuning in to this week's unsung you for tuning in to this week's unsung re podcast don't be shy we'd love to re podcast don't be shy we'd love to re podcast don't be shy we'd love to connect check out uncie Maneri inbox you connect check out uncie Maneri inbox you connect check out uncie Maneri inbox you can sign up at unsummon re calm and can sign up at unsummon re calm and can sign up at unsummon re calm and we'll send you helpful training we'll send you helpful training we'll send you helpful training resources every week plus you'll gain resources every week plus you'll gain resources every week plus you'll gain immediate access to our exclusive immediate access to our exclusive immediate access to our exclusive members area with tons of resources you members area with tons of resources you members area with tons of resources you can use connect with rich on twitter at can use connect with rich on twitter at can use connect with rich on twitter at rich birch or through email rich at rich birch or through email rich at rich birch or through email rich at unsummon airy calm don't forget to check unsummon airy calm don't forget to check unsummon airy calm don't forget to check out the show notes for this episode at out the show notes for this episode at out the show notes for this episode at unset maneri calm it includes links to unset maneri calm it includes links to unset maneri calm it includes links to what we talked about today and more what we talked about today and more what we talked about today and more leave a comment we'd love to hear from leave a comment we'd love to hear from leave a comment we'd love to hear from you did you enjoy today's episode drop you did you enjoy today's episode drop you did you enjoy today's episode drop by itunes and leave a review thanks by itunes and leave a review thanks by itunes and leave a review thanks again for tuning in to this week's on again for tuning in to this week's on again for tuning in to this week's on seminary podcast join us next week when seminary podcast join us next week when seminary podcast join us next week when we'll learn more stuff we wish they we'll learn more stuff we wish they we'll learn more stuff we wish they taught in seminary taught in seminary taught in seminary you