Carl George & Warren Bird on How Your Church Can Break Growth Barriers

welcome to the uncie Maneri podcast are welcome to the uncie Maneri podcast are you looking for practical ministry help you looking for practical ministry help you looking for practical ministry help to drive your ministry further faster to drive your ministry further faster to drive your ministry further faster have a sinking feeling that your have a sinking feeling that your have a sinking feeling that your ministry training didn't prepare you for ministry training didn't prepare you for ministry training didn't prepare you for the real world hey you're not alone join the real world hey you're not alone join the real world hey you're not alone join thousands of others in pursuit of stuff thousands of others in pursuit of stuff thousands of others in pursuit of stuff that we wish they had taught in seminary that we wish they had taught in seminary that we wish they had taught in seminary buckle up and let's get started with buckle up and let's get started with buckle up and let's get started with this week's on seminary podcast welcome this week's on seminary podcast welcome this week's on seminary podcast welcome to the on seminary podcast my name is to the on seminary podcast my name is to the on seminary podcast my name is rich the host around these parts a happy rich the host around these parts a happy rich the host around these parts a happy Thursday we are so honored that you Thursday we are so honored that you Thursday we are so honored that you would take some time out to put us in would take some time out to put us in would take some time out to put us in your earbuds as we say to listen in on your earbuds as we say to listen in on your earbuds as we say to listen in on today's conversation now I got to be today's conversation now I got to be today's conversation now I got to be honest um I was a little nervous about honest um I was a little nervous about honest um I was a little nervous about today's conversation so the two two today's conversation so the two two today's conversation so the two two gentlemen who have served the church gentlemen who have served the church gentlemen who have served the church it's done just incredible work that I'm it's done just incredible work that I'm it's done just incredible work that I'm honored and privileged to have on the honored and privileged to have on the honored and privileged to have on the show today we're over 200 episodes and I show today we're over 200 episodes and I show today we're over 200 episodes and I think this is probably going to go down think this is probably going to go down think this is probably going to go down as one of my favorite ones so we've got as one of my favorite ones so we've got as one of my favorite ones so we've got Warren Byrd and Carl George on the on Warren Byrd and Carl George on the on Warren Byrd and Carl George on the on the line today Warren Byrd's been on a the line today Warren Byrd's been on a the line today Warren Byrd's been on a few times I think this is your third few times I think this is your third few times I think this is your third time I just you argue a three-peat time I just you argue a three-peat time I just you argue a three-peat Warren which is I think you're maybe one Warren which is I think you're maybe one Warren which is I think you're maybe one of two people that's been on three times of two people that's been on three times of two people that's been on three times Warren is works for leadership network Warren is works for leadership network Warren is works for leadership network has the best title in the world and I has the best title in the world and I has the best title in the world and I just loved him dearly he's one of those just loved him dearly he's one of those just loved him dearly he's one of those guys that when he called up and said hey guys that when he called up and said hey guys that when he called up and said hey I'd love to chat the answer is always I'd love to chat the answer is always I'd love to chat the answer is always yes and then Carl George who you may yes and then Carl George who you may yes and then Carl George who you may know it's author was a professor for know it's author was a professor for know it's author was a professor for years at at Fuller is a wonderful guy so years at at Fuller is a wonderful guy so years at at Fuller is a wonderful guy so why don't we start we're going to start why don't we start we're going to start why don't we start we're going to start with just you guys introducing with just you guys introducing with just you guys introducing yourselves a little bit Warren why don't yourselves a little bit Warren why don't yourselves a little bit Warren why don't we start with you I love Jesus and I we start with you I love Jesus and I we start with you I love Jesus and I love seeing his church grow and years love seeing his church grow and years love seeing his church grow and years ago I got connected up with Carl George ago I got connected up with Carl George ago I got connected up with Carl George and he was teaching the how to break the

and he was teaching the how to break the and he was teaching the how to break the 200-year how to break the 400 berry how 200-year how to break the 400 berry how 200-year how to break the 400 berry how to break the 800 barrier and he was to break the 800 barrier and he was to break the 800 barrier and he was exhausted and the groups were full and I exhausted and the groups were full and I exhausted and the groups were full and I said Carl why can't we turn this into a said Carl why can't we turn this into a said Carl why can't we turn this into a book so that you can go home once in a book so that you can go home once in a book so that you can go home once in a while and that people could benefit from while and that people could benefit from while and that people could benefit from it and so we took the best of all those it and so we took the best of all those it and so we took the best of all those workshops and turned it into a book that workshops and turned it into a book that workshops and turned it into a book that has just done so well over the years has just done so well over the years has just done so well over the years that the publisher came in said hey it's that the publisher came in said hey it's that the publisher came in said hey it's still percolating update it re-release still percolating update it re-release still percolating update it re-release it and here we are absolutely yeah it and here we are absolutely yeah it and here we are absolutely yeah that's great Carl why don't you give us that's great Carl why don't you give us that's great Carl why don't you give us a sense of your story well I I put out a sense of your story well I I put out a sense of your story well I I put out my first book with Bob Logan my first book with Bob Logan my first book with Bob Logan but our publisher said we really needed but our publisher said we really needed but our publisher said we really needed help and they found war on poor and that help and they found war on poor and that help and they found war on poor and that is turned into a lifelong collaboration is turned into a lifelong collaboration is turned into a lifelong collaboration nice I am thrilled to work with nice I am thrilled to work with nice I am thrilled to work with warrantees is so he has the kind of a warrantees is so he has the kind of a warrantees is so he has the kind of a mind that is awesome mind that is awesome mind that is awesome he'll listen to recordings from four or he'll listen to recordings from four or he'll listen to recordings from four or five different seminars and remember five different seminars and remember five different seminars and remember them distinctly so well he can say in them distinctly so well he can say in them distinctly so well he can say in the second recording that's the best way the second recording that's the best way the second recording that's the best way to say that in the fourth recording to say that in the fourth recording to say that in the fourth recording that's the best way to say that and he that's the best way to say that and he that's the best way to say that and he pulls that stuff together it's such an pulls that stuff together it's such an pulls that stuff together it's such an amazing way so when it comes back to me amazing way so when it comes back to me amazing way so when it comes back to me all I have to is tweaked a few pronouns all I have to is tweaked a few pronouns all I have to is tweaked a few pronouns and and look for gaps but he's been a and and look for gaps but he's been a and and look for gaps but he's been a wonderful collaborator and he's got I wonderful collaborator and he's got I wonderful collaborator and he's got I guess 26 books day under his belt now is guess 26 books day under his belt now is guess 26 books day under his belt now is that the number but it's 29 but who's that the number but it's 29 but who's that the number but it's 29 but who's counting but he asked he asked about you counting but he asked he asked about you counting but he asked he asked about you and you have an incredible background and you have an incredible background and you have an incredible background yes well we had we started out as church

yes well we had we started out as church yes well we had we started out as church planters my wife and I did after you planters my wife and I did after you planters my wife and I did after you youth work in in one of the earliest youth work in in one of the earliest youth work in in one of the earliest mega churches and in in Miami Florida mega churches and in in Miami Florida mega churches and in in Miami Florida and then the Lord called us very clearly and then the Lord called us very clearly and then the Lord called us very clearly to Gainesville Florida to start a church to Gainesville Florida to start a church to Gainesville Florida to start a church there and we were there for 13 years there and we were there for 13 years there and we were there for 13 years until we got the call to to fuller in until we got the call to to fuller in until we got the call to to fuller in the end the process at that time we the end the process at that time we the end the process at that time we experienced those barriers at 2 and 48 experienced those barriers at 2 and 48 experienced those barriers at 2 and 48 and it was it was quite a challenge but and it was it was quite a challenge but and it was it was quite a challenge but we worked out the pieces of it and then we worked out the pieces of it and then we worked out the pieces of it and then when I met Peter Wagner the crew out at when I met Peter Wagner the crew out at when I met Peter Wagner the crew out at fuller all the pieces came together in fuller all the pieces came together in fuller all the pieces came together in the language necessary to explain it to the language necessary to explain it to the language necessary to explain it to others came together and six or seven others came together and six or seven others came together and six or seven years in we were ready to do our first years in we were ready to do our first years in we were ready to do our first book and and Boren's showed up on the book and and Boren's showed up on the book and and Boren's showed up on the scene about that time so we've had a scene about that time so we've had a scene about that time so we've had a marvelous time 100 denominations all marvelous time 100 denominations all marvelous time 100 denominations all over North America and internationally over North America and internationally over North America and internationally as well and we've been greatly blessed as well and we've been greatly blessed as well and we've been greatly blessed by the pastor's have given us their by the pastor's have given us their by the pastor's have given us their questions and that's the greatest gift a questions and that's the greatest gift a questions and that's the greatest gift a consultant can ever have is the consultant can ever have is the consultant can ever have is the questions that come from people are in questions that come from people are in questions that come from people are in the middle of a fight and if we go out the middle of a fight and if we go out the middle of a fight and if we go out and research it and figure out what it and research it and figure out what it and research it and figure out what it is that they need and are missing and go is that they need and are missing and go is that they need and are missing and go from there from there from there you have this unsetting Airy I think you have this unsetting Airy I think you have this unsetting Airy I think which I'm rather pleased with it the which I'm rather pleased with it the which I'm rather pleased with it the only intention I have with that idea is only intention I have with that idea is only intention I have with that idea is that when we ask as seminarians we ask that when we ask as seminarians we ask that when we ask as seminarians we ask our people are coming to our our people are coming to our our people are coming to our references which you would like to have references which you would like to have references which you would like to have studied distance seminary they first of studied distance seminary they first of studied distance seminary they first of all say oh absolutely they should have all say oh absolutely they should have all say oh absolutely they should have taught us in seminary and then they taught us in seminary and then they taught us in seminary and then they stopped and they think about a little

stopped and they think about a little stopped and they think about a little bit they say but in seminary no no I bit they say but in seminary no no I bit they say but in seminary no no I wasn't ready think of it I know I've wasn't ready think of it I know I've wasn't ready think of it I know I've been out beating up a little bit I did been out beating up a little bit I did been out beating up a little bit I did now yes this is what I would like to now yes this is what I would like to now yes this is what I would like to have been taught in seminary but there's have been taught in seminary but there's have been taught in seminary but there's no chance that if I had been taught it no chance that if I had been taught it no chance that if I had been taught it or exposed to it it would have saved me or exposed to it it would have saved me or exposed to it it would have saved me I still needed the hard knocks and the I still needed the hard knocks and the I still needed the hard knocks and the experience is necessary to make me ready experience is necessary to make me ready experience is necessary to make me ready for learning so in a sense I love your for learning so in a sense I love your for learning so in a sense I love your own seminary idea but you're when you own seminary idea but you're when you own seminary idea but you're when you catch people out of seminary you are catch people out of seminary you are catch people out of seminary you are getting them at a learnable or teachable getting them at a learnable or teachable getting them at a learnable or teachable moment appreciate what appreciate that moment appreciate what appreciate that moment appreciate what appreciate that that's a huge compliment that's a huge compliment that's a huge compliment I just this weekend was I'm helping I just this weekend was I'm helping I just this weekend was I'm helping overseers of a church plant and so I was overseers of a church plant and so I was overseers of a church plant and so I was down there trying to you know is one of down there trying to you know is one of down there trying to you know is one of these encouragement trips basically I these encouragement trips basically I these encouragement trips basically I was there to try to it's going to be was there to try to it's going to be was there to try to it's going to be okay you know one of those kind of trips okay you know one of those kind of trips okay you know one of those kind of trips and III I was reflecting on your work and III I was reflecting on your work and III I was reflecting on your work you know with this book from you know you know with this book from you know you know with this book from you know years ago and the this church basically years ago and the this church basically years ago and the this church basically had settled out just above 200 and again had settled out just above 200 and again had settled out just above 200 and again I found myself we're using the 200 400 I found myself we're using the 200 400 I found myself we're using the 200 400 800 barrier language which which I was 800 barrier language which which I was 800 barrier language which which I was smiling inside knowing that this smiling inside knowing that this smiling inside knowing that this conversation was coming up this week conversation was coming up this week conversation was coming up this week it's been you know that's Seminole it's been you know that's Seminole it's been you know that's Seminole understanding and and I'm excited for understanding and and I'm excited for understanding and and I'm excited for this new you know this new book well why this new you know this new book well why this new you know this new book well why don't we you know warn what we jump in don't we you know warn what we jump in don't we you know warn what we jump in you know some churches grow rapidly up you know some churches grow rapidly up you know some churches grow rapidly up to a point you know and they kind of to a point you know and they kind of to a point you know and they kind of they hit a barrier that the whole point they hit a barrier that the whole point they hit a barrier that the whole point of this book is how to break barriers of this book is how to break barriers of this book is how to break barriers why is that why why are these kind of why is that why why are these kind of why is that why why are these kind of barriers kind of built into the church

barriers kind of built into the church barriers kind of built into the church growth process well rich yes there are growth process well rich yes there are growth process well rich yes there are barriers and the second half of the book barriers and the second half of the book barriers and the second half of the book does talk about okay the 204 and they does talk about okay the 204 and they does talk about okay the 204 and they all have different issues associated but all have different issues associated but all have different issues associated but the biggest barrier which the whole the biggest barrier which the whole the biggest barrier which the whole first half of the book deals with what first half of the book deals with what first half of the book deals with what is between the church leaders to ears is between the church leaders to ears is between the church leaders to ears what voices are they hearing what vision what voices are they hearing what vision what voices are they hearing what vision do they have what caps do they have on do they have what caps do they have on do they have what caps do they have on their visions what biases how strong is their visions what biases how strong is their visions what biases how strong is their bias towards growth how much do their bias towards growth how much do their bias towards growth how much do they perceive their role and and that's they perceive their role and and that's they perceive their role and and that's the subtitle of the book they'll revise the subtitle of the book they'll revise the subtitle of the book they'll revise your role release your your role release your your role release your people and capture overlooked people and capture overlooked people and capture overlooked opportunities for your church the what opportunities for your church the what opportunities for your church the what what's in their mind what's in their mind what's in their mind are they the minister or the minister are they the minister or the minister are they the minister or the minister maker maker maker are they the caregiver the primary are they the caregiver the primary are they the caregiver the primary caregiver are the maker of other caregiver are the maker of other caregiver are the maker of other caregivers are they the doer or are they caregivers are they the doer or are they caregivers are they the doer or are they developer of others so and and Karl did developer of others so and and Karl did developer of others so and and Karl did you jump in please well there's a you jump in please well there's a you jump in please well there's a there's a reality here about leadership there's a reality here about leadership there's a reality here about leadership that has to do with vision of course but that has to do with vision of course but that has to do with vision of course but there's also a passion part of that there's also a passion part of that there's also a passion part of that vision and when I was studying the vision and when I was studying the vision and when I was studying the Korean churches I was very impressed by Korean churches I was very impressed by Korean churches I was very impressed by one of the habits of the young Korean one of the habits of the young Korean one of the habits of the young Korean pastors they would typically spend pastors they would typically spend pastors they would typically spend Saturday night in fasting and prayer at Saturday night in fasting and prayer at Saturday night in fasting and prayer at the church they would get on their knees the church they would get on their knees the church they would get on their knees in their study and they would plead with in their study and they would plead with in their study and they would plead with God for the next day well I picked up a God for the next day well I picked up a God for the next day well I picked up a tip or two from that kind of passion and

tip or two from that kind of passion and tip or two from that kind of passion and found myself kneeling at a chair and found myself kneeling at a chair and found myself kneeling at a chair and crying out to God and asking him for crying out to God and asking him for crying out to God and asking him for help and and for clarity and and what I help and and for clarity and and what I help and and for clarity and and what I discovered was that if your pursuit of discovered was that if your pursuit of discovered was that if your pursuit of God is strong enough there's an awful God is strong enough there's an awful God is strong enough there's an awful lot you can miss in terms of academic lot you can miss in terms of academic lot you can miss in terms of academic preparation to come up with what you preparation to come up with what you preparation to come up with what you need for the next morning but there's a need for the next morning but there's a need for the next morning but there's a point in time where no matter how point in time where no matter how point in time where no matter how passionate your your search for God is passionate your your search for God is passionate your your search for God is and no matter how much ever you put into and no matter how much ever you put into and no matter how much ever you put into it you find yourself spinning your it you find yourself spinning your it you find yourself spinning your wheels and you begin to say what's going wheels and you begin to say what's going wheels and you begin to say what's going on here I'm giving this everything I've on here I'm giving this everything I've on here I'm giving this everything I've got God knows I'm sincere I'm running a got God knows I'm sincere I'm running a got God knows I'm sincere I'm running a short list of accounts with God I've got short list of accounts with God I've got short list of accounts with God I've got everything unconfessed or confessed that everything unconfessed or confessed that everything unconfessed or confessed that I need and and can imagine and and after I need and and can imagine and and after I need and and can imagine and and after I give it everything I've got at the end I give it everything I've got at the end I give it everything I've got at the end of the day I'm still not getting where I of the day I'm still not getting where I of the day I'm still not getting where I need to go and that's we're moving into need to go and that's we're moving into need to go and that's we're moving into the barrier discussion becomes really the barrier discussion becomes really the barrier discussion becomes really fruitful until the guys hit that barrier fruitful until the guys hit that barrier fruitful until the guys hit that barrier a time or two it realizes I'm slipping a time or two it realizes I'm slipping a time or two it realizes I'm slipping I'm not going forward reminds me these I'm not going forward reminds me these I'm not going forward reminds me these these rock rock climber four-wheel drive these rock rock climber four-wheel drive these rock rock climber four-wheel drive vehicles I see they they advance up a vehicles I see they they advance up a vehicles I see they they advance up a bank to a certain point then they just bank to a certain point then they just bank to a certain point then they just before they get over the top they stall before they get over the top they stall before they get over the top they stall because they began to slip backwards because they began to slip backwards because they began to slip backwards we've seen that over and over again in we've seen that over and over again in we've seen that over and over again in churches and and what the seminar series churches and and what the seminar series churches and and what the seminar series picked up on was picked up on was picked up on was the kinds of things you struggle with a the kinds of things you struggle with a the kinds of things you struggle with a 200 are not exactly the same things at 4 200 are not exactly the same things at 4 200 are not exactly the same things at 4 and 800 yeah at 200 you're dealing with and 800 yeah at 200 you're dealing with and 800 yeah at 200 you're dealing with being willing to share the caring being willing to share the caring being willing to share the caring ministry with your team it's the Jethro

ministry with your team it's the Jethro ministry with your team it's the Jethro jump and getting realizing you cannot be jump and getting realizing you cannot be jump and getting realizing you cannot be adequate to all people add enough to adequate to all people add enough to adequate to all people add enough to take you to the next level then you have take you to the next level then you have take you to the next level then you have to figure out what what do I do if I to figure out what what do I do if I to figure out what what do I do if I call people along side to help me on my call people along side to help me on my call people along side to help me on my staff for example how do I do that the staff for example how do I do that the staff for example how do I do that the problems there and their secrets there problems there and their secrets there problems there and their secrets there as well and when you get up a little as well and when you get up a little as well and when you get up a little later you're dealing with having to cope later you're dealing with having to cope later you're dealing with having to cope with your lay leaders who want to be a with your lay leaders who want to be a with your lay leaders who want to be a part of the action and want to dilute part of the action and want to dilute part of the action and want to dilute the vision and and take it off off point the vision and and take it off off point the vision and and take it off off point because they have agendas of their own because they have agendas of their own because they have agendas of their own as well and so we and these barriers we as well and so we and these barriers we as well and so we and these barriers we step people through what are the step people through what are the step people through what are the leadership things that you need to learn leadership things that you need to learn leadership things that you need to learn how and master in order to get to that how and master in order to get to that how and master in order to get to that next level because you you've got to on next level because you you've got to on next level because you you've got to on the one point lead and the other point the one point lead and the other point the one point lead and the other point collaborate and it's a tough because collaborate and it's a tough because collaborate and it's a tough because you're always compromising when you you're always compromising when you you're always compromising when you collaborate you're always compromising collaborate you're always compromising collaborate you're always compromising and the Y gets lost and so we have to go and the Y gets lost and so we have to go and the Y gets lost and so we have to go back and say hold on what what is the back and say hold on what what is the back and say hold on what what is the core of this barrier and to what extent core of this barrier and to what extent core of this barrier and to what extent of I creating the problem that I'm of I creating the problem that I'm of I creating the problem that I'm trying to solve and and the book was trying to solve and and the book was trying to solve and and the book was written so that both the leader and the written so that both the leader and the written so that both the leader and the board and the key players both lay and board and the key players both lay and board and the key players both lay and staff can all read it together staff can all read it together staff can all read it together I just recently had a church the pastors I just recently had a church the pastors I just recently had a church the pastors the board they read it they were stuck the board they read it they were stuck the board they read it they were stuck in this particular level and and I said in this particular level and and I said in this particular level and and I said all right let's use this book as a all right let's use this book as a all right let's use this book as a diagnostic you know we're from reading diagnostic you know we're from reading diagnostic you know we're from reading it where do you see that you're stuck in it where do you see that you're stuck in it where do you see that you're stuck in and what do you need to do oh yeah I and what do you need to do oh yeah I and what do you need to do oh yeah I wonder if you give us some examples wonder if you give us some examples wonder if you give us some examples there war enough that you know there there war enough that you know there there war enough that you know there that seems to be a critical ship this that seems to be a critical ship this that seems to be a critical ship this shift from kind of Shepherd primary

shift from kind of Shepherd primary shift from kind of Shepherd primary caregiver to you know developer coach of caregiver to you know developer coach of caregiver to you know developer coach of caregivers what are some of the things caregivers what are some of the things caregivers what are some of the things practically that that pastors should do practically that that pastors should do practically that that pastors should do or maybe are doing to make that or maybe are doing to make that or maybe are doing to make that transition which is a huge change for transition which is a huge change for transition which is a huge change for most leaders the simplest thing is the most leaders the simplest thing is the most leaders the simplest thing is the apprentice model you could almost look apprentice model you could almost look apprentice model you could almost look at what Jesus did with the twelve as an at what Jesus did with the twelve as an at what Jesus did with the twelve as an apprenticeship program and at mark 3 apprenticeship program and at mark 3 apprenticeship program and at mark 3 which says that Jesus appointed twelve which says that Jesus appointed twelve which says that Jesus appointed twelve to be with him to be with him to be with him and he gave them authority to do and he gave them authority to do and he gave them authority to do different things uh just that first step different things uh just that first step different things uh just that first step in everything I'm doing am I do I have a in everything I'm doing am I do I have a in everything I'm doing am I do I have a shadow am i showing do I ever do a shadow am i showing do I ever do a shadow am i showing do I ever do a hospital visit alone hospital visit alone hospital visit alone if if I do foul you know I should be if if I do foul you know I should be if if I do foul you know I should be training someone while I'm doing it and training someone while I'm doing it and training someone while I'm doing it and then not just now that I'm modeling it then not just now that I'm modeling it then not just now that I'm modeling it but what about my key leaders both paid but what about my key leaders both paid but what about my key leaders both paid and volunteered do they get the idea of and volunteered do they get the idea of and volunteered do they get the idea of apprentices themselves second Timothy apprentices themselves second Timothy apprentices themselves second Timothy two to train others who train others who two to train others who train others who two to train others who train others who train others who train others mm-hmm train others who train others mm-hmm train others who train others mm-hmm absolutely it was there anything in the absolutely it was there anything in the absolutely it was there anything in the shift in this particular concept over shift in this particular concept over shift in this particular concept over you know the the decades between when you know the the decades between when you know the the decades between when these two editions of this book were these two editions of this book were these two editions of this book were written that shifted or changed that you written that shifted or changed that you written that shifted or changed that you know this idea of empowering others know this idea of empowering others know this idea of empowering others obviously it's the idea of obviously it's the idea of obviously it's the idea of apprenticeship is as old as time was apprenticeship is as old as time was apprenticeship is as old as time was there anything around how that's working there anything around how that's working there anything around how that's working out in churches that looks a little out in churches that looks a little out in churches that looks a little different today Carl why don't you tell different today Carl why don't you tell different today Carl why don't you tell about how apprenticeship through the about how apprenticeship through the about how apprenticeship through the bust ministries which was a very rounded bust ministries which was a very rounded bust ministries which was a very rounded estate which sounds a big deal in its

estate which sounds a big deal in its estate which sounds a big deal in its very significant but it was an very significant but it was an very significant but it was an apprenticeship model you know here's a apprenticeship model you know here's a apprenticeship model you know here's a manageable span of care and today there manageable span of care and today there manageable span of care and today there are equivalents yes there are the the are equivalents yes there are the the are equivalents yes there are the the challenge with any discussion of challenge with any discussion of challenge with any discussion of apprenticeship is that we we tend to apprenticeship is that we we tend to apprenticeship is that we we tend to want to go to a model where we label want to go to a model where we label want to go to a model where we label everything and tie it down and say this everything and tie it down and say this everything and tie it down and say this is what an apprentice looks like if we is what an apprentice looks like if we is what an apprentice looks like if we put a little formula together what I put a little formula together what I put a little formula together what I what I discovered is that there's a what I discovered is that there's a what I discovered is that there's a pre-apprenticeship appreciation or pre-apprenticeship appreciation or pre-apprenticeship appreciation or awareness that's critical to moving into awareness that's critical to moving into awareness that's critical to moving into the apprenticeship model and it has to the apprenticeship model and it has to the apprenticeship model and it has to do with recognizing what God is doing in do with recognizing what God is doing in do with recognizing what God is doing in the people around you uh woman comes to the people around you uh woman comes to the people around you uh woman comes to me from the for my church and she says me from the for my church and she says me from the for my church and she says to me she says I was down at the to me she says I was down at the to me she says I was down at the hospital and I was I was talking to one hospital and I was I was talking to one hospital and I was I was talking to one of the patients and she was so fearful of the patients and she was so fearful of the patients and she was so fearful and I thought you know I really should and I thought you know I really should and I thought you know I really should try to comfort her in some way try to comfort her in some way try to comfort her in some way and she said I thought about what I and she said I thought about what I and she said I thought about what I could do and I opened the Bible and I could do and I opened the Bible and I could do and I opened the Bible and I read the 23rd psalm to her and then she read the 23rd psalm to her and then she read the 23rd psalm to her and then she looked at me and she said did I do the looked at me and she said did I do the looked at me and she said did I do the right thing and I said absolutely you right thing and I said absolutely you right thing and I said absolutely you did the right thing did the right thing did the right thing and she came back to me on another and she came back to me on another and she came back to me on another occasion and she done very something occasion and she done very something occasion and she done very something very similar she's what you said it was very similar she's what you said it was very similar she's what you said it was okay but then I offered to pray for her okay but then I offered to pray for her okay but then I offered to pray for her and and is it was that okay absolutely and and is it was that okay absolutely and and is it was that okay absolutely that's okay and then I began to realize that's okay and then I began to realize that's okay and then I began to realize wait a minute a typical layperson not wait a minute a typical layperson not wait a minute a typical layperson not being ordained not being recognized as a

being ordained not being recognized as a being ordained not being recognized as a spiritual leader per se not getting the spiritual leader per se not getting the spiritual leader per se not getting the apprentice model that would be a moniker apprentice model that would be a moniker apprentice model that would be a moniker or title that would be helpful they're or title that would be helpful they're or title that would be helpful they're out there kind of on their own wondering out there kind of on their own wondering out there kind of on their own wondering is it okay but what they're doing is is it okay but what they're doing is is it okay but what they're doing is under the impulse of the Holy Spirit but under the impulse of the Holy Spirit but under the impulse of the Holy Spirit but they don't know that but here are they don't know that but here are they don't know that but here are caregivers with a pastoral gift in your caregivers with a pastoral gift in your caregivers with a pastoral gift in your Malu coming to you for affirmation and Malu coming to you for affirmation and Malu coming to you for affirmation and if you're not really careful instead of if you're not really careful instead of if you're not really careful instead of giving them the affirmation you'll say giving them the affirmation you'll say giving them the affirmation you'll say oh my goodness I need to go down to oh my goodness I need to go down to oh my goodness I need to go down to hospital and do that prayer with that hospital and do that prayer with that hospital and do that prayer with that woman or I need to go down a hospital woman or I need to go down a hospital woman or I need to go down a hospital read that Psalm directly instead say read that Psalm directly instead say read that Psalm directly instead say last year you are so on target my last year you are so on target my last year you are so on target my goodness and then I was in a I was in a goodness and then I was in a I was in a goodness and then I was in a I was in a mental health meeting and I was watching mental health meeting and I was watching mental health meeting and I was watching a psychiatrist deal with a woman and and a psychiatrist deal with a woman and and a psychiatrist deal with a woman and and she was volunteering to help him in his she was volunteering to help him in his she was volunteering to help him in his practice and I watched him carefully as practice and I watched him carefully as practice and I watched him carefully as he listened to her and he said so what's he listened to her and he said so what's he listened to her and he said so what's motivating you to do this is a desire motivating you to do this is a desire motivating you to do this is a desire for community service he said this and for community service he said this and for community service he said this and and when he said that praise what's and when he said that praise what's and when he said that praise what's motivating you to do that it was a motivating you to do that it was a motivating you to do that it was a discernment question for help hmm and I discernment question for help hmm and I discernment question for help hmm and I thought wait a minute wait a minute I thought wait a minute wait a minute I thought wait a minute wait a minute I can use that I need to start asking when can use that I need to start asking when can use that I need to start asking when people come to me what's motivating you people come to me what's motivating you people come to me what's motivating you to do it if they're under I may if I'm to do it if they're under I may if I'm to do it if they're under I may if I'm insecure I'll say oh they're trying to insecure I'll say oh they're trying to insecure I'll say oh they're trying to criticize my performance but but if I'm criticize my performance but but if I'm criticize my performance but but if I'm alert I will look at them and say alert I will look at them and say alert I will look at them and say there's something motivating this person there's something motivating this person there's something motivating this person do this is a caring impulse and then

do this is a caring impulse and then do this is a caring impulse and then that is the gift of the Holy Spirit that is the gift of the Holy Spirit that is the gift of the Holy Spirit that's an evidence of a spiritual that's an evidence of a spiritual that's an evidence of a spiritual giftedness my job is to give breath to giftedness my job is to give breath to giftedness my job is to give breath to that mmm Oh on that cult to make it glow that mmm Oh on that cult to make it glow that mmm Oh on that cult to make it glow and to say to them yes this is so right and to say to them yes this is so right and to say to them yes this is so right have you considered that that your have you considered that that your have you considered that that your impulse to do that and your desire do impulse to do that and your desire do impulse to do that and your desire do that could be a gift from God and that could be a gift from God and that could be a gift from God and that makes you a gift of the church hmm that makes you a gift of the church hmm that makes you a gift of the church hmm because once I started using that because once I started using that because once I started using that language people start blossoming mmm and language people start blossoming mmm and language people start blossoming mmm and they were their neighbor willing to they were their neighbor willing to they were their neighbor willing to accept young pastors countries say oh I accept young pastors countries say oh I accept young pastors countries say oh I can't get anybody to take a leadership can't get anybody to take a leadership can't get anybody to take a leadership position because they don't want the position because they don't want the position because they don't want the responsibilities of leadership whenever responsibilities of leadership whenever responsibilities of leadership whenever I hear that what I know is I've got an I hear that what I know is I've got an I hear that what I know is I've got an amateur leader on my hands because if amateur leader on my hands because if amateur leader on my hands because if the people in his church are not willing the people in his church are not willing the people in his church are not willing to take a leadership responsibility to take a leadership responsibility to take a leadership responsibility that's not entirely cultural part of that's not entirely cultural part of that's not entirely cultural part of that is conditioned he is not affirming that is conditioned he is not affirming that is conditioned he is not affirming those people when he sees micro evidence those people when he sees micro evidence those people when he sees micro evidence of gifts he wants macro evidence against of gifts he wants macro evidence against of gifts he wants macro evidence against well if you don't if you don't fan the well if you don't if you don't fan the well if you don't if you don't fan the spark of the micro evidence you're not spark of the micro evidence you're not spark of the micro evidence you're not going to see the macro coming into play going to see the macro coming into play going to see the macro coming into play and once people began to get the idea and once people began to get the idea and once people began to get the idea you mean God could be working through me you mean God could be working through me you mean God could be working through me hmm I'm helping oh wow and then you then hmm I'm helping oh wow and then you then hmm I'm helping oh wow and then you then you brag on that in front of the rest of you brag on that in front of the rest of you brag on that in front of the rest of the congregation because and we have a the congregation because and we have a the congregation because and we have a section on the in the book on the section on the in the book on the section on the in the book on the casting of vision for this kind of thing casting of vision for this kind of thing casting of vision for this kind of thing what you brag on you see more of when what you brag on you see more of when what you brag on you see more of when you applaud you get more of and people you applaud you get more of and people you applaud you get more of and people go oh well if that's what maturity looks go oh well if that's what maturity looks go oh well if that's what maturity looks like then I can step up for that too like then I can step up for that too like then I can step up for that too because I have those impulses as well oh

because I have those impulses as well oh because I have those impulses as well oh this whole idea of empowering the this whole idea of empowering the this whole idea of empowering the congregation is so essential to any kind congregation is so essential to any kind congregation is so essential to any kind of growth bearers and that's a big of growth bearers and that's a big of growth bearers and that's a big section of the book how to break growth section of the book how to break growth section of the book how to break growth fairy this is the on seminary podcast fairy this is the on seminary podcast fairy this is the on seminary podcast Steph you wish they taught in seminary Steph you wish they taught in seminary Steph you wish they taught in seminary the changes between the first edition of the changes between the first edition of the changes between the first edition of the book in the second include the the book in the second include the the book in the second include the recognition of the existence of the recognition of the existence of the recognition of the existence of the Internet and the social media and the Internet and the social media and the Internet and the social media and the communication devices we now have communication devices we now have communication devices we now have available to us huge huge difference in available to us huge huge difference in available to us huge huge difference in to speed with which we can make to speed with which we can make to speed with which we can make connections and in stay in touch with connections and in stay in touch with connections and in stay in touch with each other and this call is an evidence each other and this call is an evidence each other and this call is an evidence of that absolutely of that absolutely of that absolutely what is part of it that church planter I what is part of it that church planter I what is part of it that church planter I was telling about earlier you know his was telling about earlier you know his was telling about earlier you know his Facebook strategy is core to how he's Facebook strategy is core to how he's Facebook strategy is core to how he's reaching his people like it's it's not reaching his people like it's it's not reaching his people like it's it's not like a even for someone that comes from like a even for someone that comes from like a even for someone that comes from like a large you know mega church or like a large you know mega church or like a large you know mega church or whatever in communications I would say whatever in communications I would say whatever in communications I would say Facebook is more important to him than Facebook is more important to him than Facebook is more important to him than even that you know that's it scenario even that you know that's it scenario even that you know that's it scenario there he's really using that maximizing there he's really using that maximizing there he's really using that maximizing that to draw his community together to that to draw his community together to that to draw his community together to reach people too you know which is a new reach people too you know which is a new reach people too you know which is a new dynamic for sure it is dynamic for sure it is dynamic for sure it is and the second major difference between and the second major difference between and the second major difference between them and now is the degree to which most them and now is the degree to which most them and now is the degree to which most statements about how widespread any statements about how widespread any statements about how widespread any effect is are now quantified you heard effect is are now quantified you heard effect is are now quantified you heard Warren say 87% back in the day we had Warren say 87% back in the day we had Warren say 87% back in the day we had have said us something like over 80 have said us something like over 80 have said us something like over 80 percent and we would have been percent and we would have been percent and we would have been thumbnailing it or we've been thumbnailing it or we've been thumbnailing it or we've been approximating it and now we can actually approximating it and now we can actually approximating it and now we can actually quote etcetera or somebody and say hey quote etcetera or somebody and say hey quote etcetera or somebody and say hey we've surveyed 300 churches and now we

we've surveyed 300 churches and now we we've surveyed 300 churches and now we have to in order to criticize a piece of have to in order to criticize a piece of have to in order to criticize a piece of data we have to examine the group that data we have to examine the group that data we have to examine the group that was surveyed and the technique that was was surveyed and the technique that was was surveyed and the technique that was used and there was we're using a lot used and there was we're using a lot used and there was we're using a lot more sophisticated tool it doesn't mean more sophisticated tool it doesn't mean more sophisticated tool it doesn't mean we get better knowledge necessarily we get better knowledge necessarily we get better knowledge necessarily because experienced people in the field because experienced people in the field because experienced people in the field pick up on where the trends and so forth pick up on where the trends and so forth pick up on where the trends and so forth are but at least we have the ability to are but at least we have the ability to are but at least we have the ability to make statements that are defensible and make statements that are defensible and make statements that are defensible and can be revised by some methodology than can be revised by some methodology than can be revised by some methodology than opinion and that's another huge opinion and that's another huge opinion and that's another huge difference in the two Styles very cool difference in the two Styles very cool difference in the two Styles very cool well we're going to we're going to keep well we're going to we're going to keep well we're going to we're going to keep moving along I thought before we move moving along I thought before we move moving along I thought before we move into the lightning round with Carl into the lightning round with Carl into the lightning round with Carl Warren I wonder if you can give us you Warren I wonder if you can give us you Warren I wonder if you can give us you know people who listen in to on seminary know people who listen in to on seminary know people who listen in to on seminary you know I I literally could do every you know I I literally could do every you know I I literally could do every week someone selling a book you know week someone selling a book you know week someone selling a book you know people all the time are like hey can you people all the time are like hey can you people all the time are like hey can you come on here and I just don't do it a come on here and I just don't do it a come on here and I just don't do it a lot because I want to trust the author's lot because I want to trust the author's lot because I want to trust the author's they want to have some sort of they want to have some sort of they want to have some sort of relationship with and and Warren like I relationship with and and Warren like I relationship with and and Warren like I say this book from you know the early say this book from you know the early say this book from you know the early 90s I actually was trying to find my 90s I actually was trying to find my 90s I actually was trying to find my copy of this morning I think I've copy of this morning I think I've copy of this morning I think I've actually given it away someone else so actually given it away someone else so actually given it away someone else so I'm excited that you've updated it why I'm excited that you've updated it why I'm excited that you've updated it why don't you give us a thumbnail around um don't you give us a thumbnail around um don't you give us a thumbnail around um you know why the read you know why the you know why the read you know why the you know why the read you know why the re-up and why people who have the the re-up and why people who have the the re-up and why people who have the the check mark version from you know 20 check mark version from you know 20 check mark version from you know 20 years ago why they should you know pick years ago why they should you know pick years ago why they should you know pick up this copy and then where they can get up this copy and then where they can get up this copy and then where they can get it we updated the illustrations of it we updated the illustrations of it we updated the illustrations of different churches you know the heroes different churches you know the heroes different churches you know the heroes of the time - Chuck Swindoll 's and of the time - Chuck Swindoll 's and of the time - Chuck Swindoll 's and others we replaced with more modern others we replaced with more modern others we replaced with more modern illustrations we changed early in early

illustrations we changed early in early illustrations we changed early in early edition we had used the jethrow model to edition we had used the jethrow model to edition we had used the jethrow model to say okay you need to do more than be a say okay you need to do more than be a say okay you need to do more than be a shepherd of your church you need to be shepherd of your church you need to be shepherd of your church you need to be and we use wild Schaller's term of a and we use wild Schaller's term of a and we use wild Schaller's term of a rancher who over and people didn't like rancher who over and people didn't like rancher who over and people didn't like that they said you know I that they said you know I that they said you know I want to be the shepherd and they were want to be the shepherd and they were want to be the shepherd and they were right so we changed that to kind of the right so we changed that to kind of the right so we changed that to kind of the player coach versus the pastor in that player coach versus the pastor in that player coach versus the pastor in that you're still in the game and yet you you're still in the game and yet you you're still in the game and yet you have a coaching role for others in the have a coaching role for others in the have a coaching role for others in the game as Carl alluded to earlier we dealt game as Carl alluded to earlier we dealt game as Carl alluded to earlier we dealt with social media we dealt with with social media we dealt with with social media we dealt with multi-site being a much more of a viable multi-site being a much more of a viable multi-site being a much more of a viable factor but you know the core issue of do factor but you know the core issue of do factor but you know the core issue of do you really believe that there are you really believe that there are you really believe that there are unchurched people who need Jesus around unchurched people who need Jesus around unchurched people who need Jesus around you that your church could reach without you that your church could reach without you that your church could reach without saying yeah but we need more money yeah saying yeah but we need more money yeah saying yeah but we need more money yeah but we need more staff yeah but and you but we need more staff yeah but and you but we need more staff yeah but and you know what by the way if you if you don't know what by the way if you if you don't know what by the way if you if you don't change your model you just get another change your model you just get another change your model you just get another staff and they become the hired hand staff and they become the hired hand staff and they become the hired hand room gets exhausted right if they really room gets exhausted right if they really room gets exhausted right if they really aren't the maker of other ministers so aren't the maker of other ministers so aren't the maker of other ministers so so the book is is is fresh for today the so the book is is is fresh for today the so the book is is is fresh for today the same core ideas and just as workable for same core ideas and just as workable for same core ideas and just as workable for discussing as a leadership team or as a discussing as a leadership team or as a discussing as a leadership team or as a board to say okay how do we go to the board to say okay how do we go to the board to say okay how do we go to the next level as a church and this will next level as a church and this will next level as a church and this will give it very cool yeah I know is people give it very cool yeah I know is people give it very cool yeah I know is people want to pick it up and get it at Amazon want to pick it up and get it at Amazon want to pick it up and get it at Amazon or if there are still bookstores or if there are still bookstores or if there are still bookstores available somewhere you can pick it up

available somewhere you can pick it up available somewhere you can pick it up in those places I'm not sure where those in those places I'm not sure where those in those places I'm not sure where those are but you could get it on on Amazon are but you could get it on on Amazon are but you could get it on on Amazon we'll put a link in the show notes as we'll put a link in the show notes as we'll put a link in the show notes as well so that you can find it listen well so that you can find it listen well so that you can find it listen people I really do think you should pick people I really do think you should pick people I really do think you should pick up a copy of this book it it's it's up a copy of this book it it's it's up a copy of this book it it's it's foundational reading even if you read foundational reading even if you read foundational reading even if you read the check mark version from years ago or the check mark version from years ago or the check mark version from years ago or that you know because there's like this that you know because there's like this that you know because there's like this that's what I remember on the front that's what I remember on the front that's what I remember on the front maybe it was I guess it was a growth maybe it was I guess it was a growth maybe it was I guess it was a growth arrow going up you know you really arrow going up you know you really arrow going up you know you really should pick that up well we're going to should pick that up well we're going to should pick that up well we're going to jump into the lightning round that part jump into the lightning round that part jump into the lightning round that part of the episode where we asked everybody of the episode where we asked everybody of the episode where we asked everybody who's on the show to answer questions who's on the show to answer questions who's on the show to answer questions and karl has graciously agreed to go and karl has graciously agreed to go and karl has graciously agreed to go along which I got to be honest I feel a along which I got to be honest I feel a along which I got to be honest I feel a little bit silly asking you this little bit silly asking you this little bit silly asking you this question sir but I'm going to ask them question sir but I'm going to ask them question sir but I'm going to ask them to you anyway so Carol what's an online to you anyway so Carol what's an online to you anyway so Carol what's an online resource that you're using these days resource that you're using these days resource that you're using these days that's helping you out in your ministry that's helping you out in your ministry that's helping you out in your ministry goggle yes totally I'm there 10 times 20 goggle yes totally I'm there 10 times 20 goggle yes totally I'm there 10 times 20 times a day so it's a continual no times a day so it's a continual no times a day so it's a continual no getting away from it all all of the getting away from it all all of the getting away from it all all of the electronic media communications electronic media communications electronic media communications messenger email messenger email messenger email all that stuff I away from Facebook only all that stuff I away from Facebook only all that stuff I away from Facebook only because it's a it's a sucking hole and because it's a it's a sucking hole and because it's a it's a sucking hole and it's hard to limit it to two hours once it's hard to limit it to two hours once it's hard to limit it to two hours once you get going but my latest ventures are you get going but my latest ventures are you get going but my latest ventures are in the area of blogging I've started in the area of blogging I've started in the area of blogging I've started blogging so that I will be able to carry blogging so that I will be able to carry blogging so that I will be able to carry some of the insights forward great and some of the insights forward great and some of the insights forward great and that blog is at consulting for growth o that blog is at consulting for growth o that blog is at consulting for growth o RG uh consulting for growth Auto RG RG uh consulting for growth Auto RG RG uh consulting for growth Auto RG that's right perfect I put a link of that's right perfect I put a link of that's right perfect I put a link of that in the notes too so people can pick

that in the notes too so people can pick that in the notes too so people can pick up about that whipped car what's a book up about that whipped car what's a book up about that whipped car what's a book you've read in the last six months or you've read in the last six months or you've read in the last six months or maybe two year that has had an impact on maybe two year that has had an impact on maybe two year that has had an impact on your thinking or ministry Oh Jim Henley your thinking or ministry Oh Jim Henley your thinking or ministry Oh Jim Henley from Orange California Jim Handley wrote from Orange California Jim Handley wrote from Orange California Jim Handley wrote a book called healing the shattered soul a book called healing the shattered soul a book called healing the shattered soul as I have worked with failed missions as I have worked with failed missions as I have worked with failed missions and with failing missions I have begun and with failing missions I have begun and with failing missions I have begun to find soul wounds and people in to find soul wounds and people in to find soul wounds and people in leaders and people who supervise church leaders and people who supervise church leaders and people who supervise church planters see this frequently but they planters see this frequently but they planters see this frequently but they don't know what to make of it they think don't know what to make of it they think don't know what to make of it they think of it as fickleness they think of it as of it as fickleness they think of it as of it as fickleness they think of it as failing to follow through failing to follow through failing to follow through mercurial behaviors etc but what we're mercurial behaviors etc but what we're mercurial behaviors etc but what we're actually dealing with there is a wounded actually dealing with there is a wounded actually dealing with there is a wounded soul and the demonism that comes along soul and the demonism that comes along soul and the demonism that comes along with it the attack of the evil that with it the attack of the evil that with it the attack of the evil that comes along with it and Henley has put comes along with it and Henley has put comes along with it and Henley has put together the single best resource on together the single best resource on together the single best resource on that that I've ever seen and I'm heavily that that I've ever seen and I'm heavily that that I've ever seen and I'm heavily into that because my own background into that because my own background into that because my own background includes a deliverance ministry we used includes a deliverance ministry we used includes a deliverance ministry we used to call it exorcism but it's deliverance to call it exorcism but it's deliverance to call it exorcism but it's deliverance ministry but but what we didn't find was ministry but but what we didn't find was ministry but but what we didn't find was why deliverance ministry is only partly why deliverance ministry is only partly why deliverance ministry is only partly effective and and the reason for that is effective and and the reason for that is effective and and the reason for that is because of the wounded soul and people because of the wounded soul and people because of the wounded soul and people so that's a sometime have me honor will so that's a sometime have me honor will so that's a sometime have me honor will talk about the wounded soul bits sure talk about the wounded soul bits sure talk about the wounded soul bits sure because that's a very significant area because that's a very significant area because that's a very significant area for making progress and for finding for making progress and for finding for making progress and for finding spiritual strength and healing very cool spiritual strength and healing very cool spiritual strength and healing very cool what's another ministry that you're what's another ministry that you're what's another ministry that you're looking to to inspire you are you looking to to inspire you are you looking to to inspire you are you speaking of organizations yeah could be

speaking of organizations yeah could be speaking of organizations yeah could be organization could be another church organization could be another church organization could be another church could be well but probably the most could be well but probably the most could be well but probably the most significant single person I've met in significant single person I've met in significant single person I've met in the last few months the last few months the last few months is Todd Wilson who's executive over at is Todd Wilson who's executive over at is Todd Wilson who's executive over at exponential yep exponential exponential yep exponential exponential yep exponential church-planting good people that that church-planting good people that that church-planting good people that that guy is unbelievable in terms of both guy is unbelievable in terms of both guy is unbelievable in terms of both dedication and ability right and has put dedication and ability right and has put dedication and ability right and has put together the finest program for together the finest program for together the finest program for encouraging church planters that I've encouraging church planters that I've encouraging church planters that I've ever seen I've agreed to join with him ever seen I've agreed to join with him ever seen I've agreed to join with him for the East exponential East in 217 for the East exponential East in 217 for the East exponential East in 217 down in Orlando where else and two or down in Orlando where else and two or down in Orlando where else and two or three workshops down there for him just three workshops down there for him just three workshops down there for him just because I want to bless him and be a because I want to bless him and be a because I want to bless him and be a part of what I think is a very part of what I think is a very part of what I think is a very significant and very good work yeah it's significant and very good work yeah it's significant and very good work yeah it's amazing exponential G event a chance to amazing exponential G event a chance to amazing exponential G event a chance to be a part of it is uh be a part of it is uh be a part of it is uh it's really it's incredible movement it's really it's incredible movement it's really it's incredible movement really of multiplication church really of multiplication church really of multiplication church multiplication which is amazing if you multiplication which is amazing if you multiplication which is amazing if you could get the interesting thing about could get the interesting thing about could get the interesting thing about exponential ISM that if they are exponential ISM that if they are exponential ISM that if they are successful our book is even more successful our book is even more successful our book is even more important right because if you start a important right because if you start a important right because if you start a church and you start growing with it all church and you start growing with it all church and you start growing with it all of a sudden you know longer have a of a sudden you know longer have a of a sudden you know longer have a church plant now you have a church as church plant now you have a church as church plant now you have a church as maturing and scaling upward absolutely maturing and scaling upward absolutely maturing and scaling upward absolutely if you could get fifteen minutes with if you could get fifteen minutes with if you could get fifteen minutes with any leader alive who would you want to any leader alive who would you want to any leader alive who would you want to get that with and why Bono no nice from get that with and why Bono no nice from get that with and why Bono no nice from you too yeah you too yeah you too yeah bono I'm very impressed with him because bono I'm very impressed with him because bono I'm very impressed with him because he comes to a from an artistic point of he comes to a from an artistic point of he comes to a from an artistic point of view but he hasn't lost his core faith

view but he hasn't lost his core faith view but he hasn't lost his core faith and he and he has a heart big enough to and he and he has a heart big enough to and he and he has a heart big enough to reach out toward people that are hurting reach out toward people that are hurting reach out toward people that are hurting and I'm very impressed with that and I'm very impressed with that and I'm very impressed with that cool well what what does Karl George do cool well what what does Karl George do cool well what what does Karl George do for fun when he just kicks back and he's for fun when he just kicks back and he's for fun when he just kicks back and he's not thinking about growth barriers and not thinking about growth barriers and not thinking about growth barriers and he's not thinking about you know all he's not thinking about you know all he's not thinking about you know all this stuff where does he you know it this stuff where does he you know it this stuff where does he you know it just relax and have some fun what do you just relax and have some fun what do you just relax and have some fun what do you do for fun girl well besides playing do for fun girl well besides playing do for fun girl well besides playing with my grandchildren it's a it's a with my grandchildren it's a it's a with my grandchildren it's a it's a plane with my wife's Australian plane with my wife's Australian plane with my wife's Australian Labradoodle so nice reader of Australian Labradoodle so nice reader of Australian Labradoodle so nice reader of Australian Labradoodle so now and I deal with those Labradoodle so now and I deal with those Labradoodle so now and I deal with those animals every single day they're just animals every single day they're just animals every single day they're just absolutely delightful nice well guys I absolutely delightful nice well guys I absolutely delightful nice well guys I really appreciate you being on the show really appreciate you being on the show really appreciate you being on the show today like I say we'll put a link in the today like I say we'll put a link in the today like I say we'll put a link in the show notes if people want to get in show notes if people want to get in show notes if people want to get in touch with you what's the best way for touch with you what's the best way for touch with you what's the best way for them to do that or learn more we talked them to do that or learn more we talked them to do that or learn more we talked about Carl your your blog is there any about Carl your your blog is there any about Carl your your blog is there any other way they should be in touch is other way they should be in touch is other way they should be in touch is that the best thing they could do that's that the best thing they could do that's that the best thing they could do that's promote for me promote for me promote for me consulting for growth consulting for growth consulting for growth org is the best perfect and then Warren org is the best perfect and then Warren org is the best perfect and then Warren with your work with leadership network with your work with leadership network with your work with leadership network is that the best place for them to if is that the best place for them to if is that the best place for them to if they want to follow you a little closer they want to follow you a little closer they want to follow you a little closer right I'm on Twitter at Warren Byrd just right I'm on Twitter at Warren Byrd just right I'm on Twitter at Warren Byrd just as it's spelled one word and research at as it's spelled one word and research at as it's spelled one word and research at lead org and if you want to track with lead org and if you want to track with lead org and if you want to track with the weekly newsletter we put out its the weekly newsletter we put out its the weekly newsletter we put out its lead that org slash update and it's lead that org slash update and it's lead that org slash update and it's called Leadership Network advance right called Leadership Network advance right called Leadership Network advance right thank you so much guys appreciate be on thank you so much guys appreciate be on thank you so much guys appreciate be on the show today rich god bless you you the show today rich god bless you you the show today rich god bless you you have an awesome podcast I listened to it have an awesome podcast I listened to it have an awesome podcast I listened to it and recommend it all the time keep up and recommend it all the time keep up and recommend it all the time keep up the good work thanks so much thank you the good work thanks so much thank you the good work thanks so much thank you for tuning in to this week's unsung nary for tuning in to this week's unsung nary for tuning in to this week's unsung nary podcast don't be shy we'd love to

podcast don't be shy we'd love to podcast don't be shy we'd love to connect check out on seminary inbox you connect check out on seminary inbox you connect check out on seminary inbox you can sign up at unsummon re calm and can sign up at unsummon re calm and can sign up at unsummon re calm and we'll send you helpful training we'll send you helpful training we'll send you helpful training resources every week plus you'll gain resources every week plus you'll gain resources every week plus you'll gain immediate access to our exclusive immediate access to our exclusive immediate access to our exclusive members area with tons of resources you members area with tons of resources you members area with tons of resources you can use connect with rich on twitter ad can use connect with rich on twitter ad can use connect with rich on twitter ad rich birch or through email rich at rich birch or through email rich at rich birch or through email rich at unsummon Ericom don't forget to check unsummon Ericom don't forget to check unsummon Ericom don't forget to check out the show notes for this episode at out the show notes for this episode at out the show notes for this episode at unsummon Ericom it includes links to unsummon Ericom it includes links to unsummon Ericom it includes links to what we talked about today and more what we talked about today and more what we talked about today and more leave a comment we'd love to hear from leave a comment we'd love to hear from leave a comment we'd love to hear from you did you enjoy today's episode drop you did you enjoy today's episode drop you did you enjoy today's episode drop by iTunes and leave a review thanks by iTunes and leave a review thanks by iTunes and leave a review thanks again for tuning in to this week's again for tuning in to this week's again for tuning in to this week's unsung re podcast join us next week when unsung re podcast join us next week when unsung re podcast join us next week when we'll learn more stuff we wish they we'll learn more stuff we wish they we'll learn more stuff we wish they taught in seminary