Tim Stevens on building a positive team culture in your church.

welcome to the on Seminary podcast are welcome to the on Seminary podcast are you looking for practical Ministry help you looking for practical Ministry help you looking for practical Ministry help to drive your ministry further faster to drive your ministry further faster to drive your ministry further faster have a sinking feeling that your have a sinking feeling that your have a sinking feeling that your ministry training didn't prepare you for ministry training didn't prepare you for ministry training didn't prepare you for the real world hey you're not alone join the real world hey you're not alone join the real world hey you're not alone join thousands of others in pursuit of stuff thousands of others in pursuit of stuff thousands of others in pursuit of stuff that we wish they had taught in seminary that we wish they had taught in seminary that we wish they had taught in seminary buckle up and let's get started with buckle up and let's get started with buckle up and let's get started with this week's on Seminary podcast all this week's on Seminary podcast all this week's on Seminary podcast all right well hey everybody Welcome to the right well hey everybody Welcome to the right well hey everybody Welcome to the unseminary podcast happy Thursday unseminary podcast happy Thursday unseminary podcast happy Thursday hopefully you're having a great week as hopefully you're having a great week as hopefully you're having a great week as we get ready for this weekend of we get ready for this weekend of we get ready for this weekend of ministry at your church thank you so ministry at your church thank you so ministry at your church thank you so much for taking time out of your busy much for taking time out of your busy much for taking time out of your busy schedule to take some time to invest in schedule to take some time to invest in schedule to take some time to invest in your own leadership today to put us into your own leadership today to put us into your own leadership today to put us into your earbuds and to listen in on this your earbuds and to listen in on this your earbuds and to listen in on this conversation I'm super excited to have conversation I'm super excited to have conversation I'm super excited to have Tim Stevens with us today Tim uh is a Tim Stevens with us today Tim uh is a Tim Stevens with us today Tim uh is a part of I think your title is like team part of I think your title is like team part of I think your title is like team leader or something like that at Vander leader or something like that at Vander leader or something like that at Vander blueman's Search Group before that he blueman's Search Group before that he blueman's Search Group before that he was in Granger at Granger Community was in Granger at Granger Community was in Granger at Granger Community Church in Granger Indiana so I'm super Church in Granger Indiana so I'm super Church in Granger Indiana so I'm super excited to have uh Tim on the show today excited to have uh Tim on the show today excited to have uh Tim on the show today Tim welcome so glad to be here thanks Tim welcome so glad to be here thanks Tim welcome so glad to be here thanks for giving me a few minutes to talk to for giving me a few minutes to talk to for giving me a few minutes to talk to your uh your friends and your audience your uh your friends and your audience your uh your friends and your audience oh thank you so much I'm glad to have oh thank you so much I'm glad to have oh thank you so much I'm glad to have you uh today along for the ride so you uh today along for the ride so you uh today along for the ride so obviously you've spent a lot of time obviously you've spent a lot of time obviously you've spent a lot of time thinking about teams and Leadership and thinking about teams and Leadership and thinking about teams and Leadership and and that sort of thing I wonder if you and that sort of thing I wonder if you and that sort of thing I wonder if you could give us kind of the Tim Stevens could give us kind of the Tim Stevens could give us kind of the Tim Stevens story kind of who is Tim Stevens for story kind of who is Tim Stevens for story kind of who is Tim Stevens for people who don't know and kind of a bit people who don't know and kind of a bit people who don't know and kind of a bit of your background and where you are of your background and where you are of your background and where you are today and that sort of thing yeah so today and that sort of thing yeah so today and that sort of thing yeah so started my I've been in Ministry now for started my I've been in Ministry now for started my I've been in Ministry now for almost 30 years but I started my career almost 30 years but I started my career almost 30 years but I started my career at a non-profit organization uh called at a non-profit organization uh called at a non-profit organization uh called life Action Ministries and I spent nine life Action Ministries and I spent nine life Action Ministries and I spent nine years there and I had a tremendous run years there and I had a tremendous run years there and I had a tremendous run there started at attending a little just

there started at attending a little just there started at attending a little just startup church when I was working there startup church when I was working there startup church when I was working there called Granger Community Church meeting called Granger Community Church meeting called Granger Community Church meeting in a movie theater in South Bend area in a movie theater in South Bend area in a movie theater in South Bend area South Bend Indiana and um and just was South Bend Indiana and um and just was South Bend Indiana and um and just was like okay this is weird I've been like okay this is weird I've been like okay this is weird I've been working with churches for nine years but working with churches for nine years but working with churches for nine years but this is different uh this is a church this is different uh this is a church this is different uh this is a church that's reaching people that I have not that's reaching people that I have not that's reaching people that I have not seen a lot of churches reach and so very seen a lot of churches reach and so very seen a lot of churches reach and so very appealing to me and uh was asked to come appealing to me and uh was asked to come appealing to me and uh was asked to come on staff the church was about five six on staff the church was about five six on staff the church was about five six years old I was the I think the fifth years old I was the I think the fifth years old I was the I think the fifth staff member at the time and uh so staff member at the time and uh so staff member at the time and uh so meeting in a very small room around a meeting in a very small room around a meeting in a very small room around a table basically was uh how we did it 300 table basically was uh how we did it 300 table basically was uh how we did it 300 people in the church people in the church people in the church um and uh did a number of things in um and uh did a number of things in um and uh did a number of things in those early years uh within a couple those early years uh within a couple those early years uh within a couple years was asked to be the executive years was asked to be the executive years was asked to be the executive pastor and it was just a fun ride I was pastor and it was just a fun ride I was pastor and it was just a fun ride I was there for 20 11 days shy of 20 years I there for 20 11 days shy of 20 years I there for 20 11 days shy of 20 years I don't want to exaggerate don't want to exaggerate don't want to exaggerate we're around numbers 20 years we're around numbers 20 years we're around numbers 20 years um and uh and we saw the church you know um and uh and we saw the church you know um and uh and we saw the church you know grow into the thousands we were able to grow into the thousands we were able to grow into the thousands we were able to um see a significant Ministry done both um see a significant Ministry done both um see a significant Ministry done both in the community in the community in the community um and around the world a lot of work um and around the world a lot of work um and around the world a lot of work that we uh were doing and the church that we uh were doing and the church that we uh were doing and the church still continues to do in Southern India still continues to do in Southern India still continues to do in Southern India um it's over 1800 churches start there um it's over 1800 churches start there um it's over 1800 churches start there and just a a fun uh exciting ride uh to and just a a fun uh exciting ride uh to and just a a fun uh exciting ride uh to be able to you know be a part of that be able to you know be a part of that be able to you know be a part of that when I left we had when I left we had when I left we had uh just just early this summer we had uh just just early this summer we had uh just just early this summer we had 129 staff members 129 staff members 129 staff members uh several multi-sites uh uh preschool uh several multi-sites uh uh preschool uh several multi-sites uh uh preschool we were doing a restaurant that was an we were doing a restaurant that was an we were doing a restaurant that was an Outreach out of the church campus there

Outreach out of the church campus there Outreach out of the church campus there to reach people during the week and uh to reach people during the week and uh to reach people during the week and uh and you know just a tremendous team but and you know just a tremendous team but and you know just a tremendous team but uh kind of God God led me away from uh kind of God God led me away from uh kind of God God led me away from there said kind of your your season is there said kind of your your season is there said kind of your your season is done your time is done and just felt done your time is done and just felt done your time is done and just felt great piece about that when I made that great piece about that when I made that great piece about that when I made that decision I didn't know exactly what that decision I didn't know exactly what that decision I didn't know exactly what that meant where I'd be going but meant where I'd be going but meant where I'd be going but um but about three years prior I had uh um but about three years prior I had uh um but about three years prior I had uh hired Vander Bloom and Search Group to hired Vander Bloom and Search Group to hired Vander Bloom and Search Group to help us find a campus Pastor it was a help us find a campus Pastor it was a help us find a campus Pastor it was a positive experience and didn't think positive experience and didn't think positive experience and didn't think much about it after that but then this much about it after that but then this much about it after that but then this summer uh as I was kind of considering summer uh as I was kind of considering summer uh as I was kind of considering what the next chapter is it just seemed what the next chapter is it just seemed what the next chapter is it just seemed like a natural fit like a natural fit like a natural fit um I get the opportunity to work with um I get the opportunity to work with um I get the opportunity to work with pastors and churches still which I love pastors and churches still which I love pastors and churches still which I love I get the opportunity to find great I get the opportunity to find great I get the opportunity to find great talent which was one of the most talent which was one of the most talent which was one of the most favorite things I did at Granger and I favorite things I did at Granger and I favorite things I did at Granger and I get the chance to lead a team and so get the chance to lead a team and so get the chance to lead a team and so that's exciting as well so it's it's a that's exciting as well so it's it's a that's exciting as well so it's it's a great fit I'm I'm all of like three great fit I'm I'm all of like three great fit I'm I'm all of like three months old here now so still very new months old here now so still very new months old here now so still very new I'm still very much in the honeymoon I'm still very much in the honeymoon I'm still very much in the honeymoon season so you found you found the season so you found you found the season so you found you found the bathroom in the office that's basically bathroom in the office that's basically bathroom in the office that's basically I know where to park my car yeah that's I know where to park my car yeah that's I know where to park my car yeah that's that's about as good as it gets yeah that's about as good as it gets yeah that's about as good as it gets yeah nice well with 100 and some odd you know nice well with 100 and some odd you know nice well with 100 and some odd you know staff on your team at Granger and staff on your team at Granger and staff on your team at Granger and obviously with what you're doing in your obviously with what you're doing in your obviously with what you're doing in your day job now day job now day job now um you know obviously you've you've um you know obviously you've you've um you know obviously you've you've spent a lot of time thinking about how spent a lot of time thinking about how spent a lot of time thinking about how do you get great people to come on to do you get great people to come on to do you get great people to come on to your team your team your team um you know what have you done on that um you know what have you done on that um you know what have you done on that front what are some of those things that front what are some of those things that front what are some of those things that you know you should be thinking about you know you should be thinking about you know you should be thinking about when we're trying to bring great people when we're trying to bring great people when we're trying to bring great people onto our teams yeah well it's onto our teams yeah well it's onto our teams yeah well it's interesting that uh you know if you interesting that uh you know if you interesting that uh you know if you think about when people want to join think about when people want to join think about when people want to join your team

your team your team um often what they do first is what they um often what they do first is what they um often what they do first is what they give you a resume right and in my work give you a resume right and in my work give you a resume right and in my work now we see hundreds and hundreds and now we see hundreds and hundreds and now we see hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of resumes we get probably four hundreds of resumes we get probably four hundreds of resumes we get probably four to five hundred resumes a week oh my god to five hundred resumes a week oh my god to five hundred resumes a week oh my god wow now resumes uh tend to contain your wow now resumes uh tend to contain your wow now resumes uh tend to contain your uh education and your job experience uh education and your job experience uh education and your job experience which are both valuable pieces of which are both valuable pieces of which are both valuable pieces of information but in in the realm of information but in in the realm of information but in in the realm of everything that I'm looking for when I everything that I'm looking for when I everything that I'm looking for when I hire someone those two are probably the hire someone those two are probably the hire someone those two are probably the smallest pieces of the puzzle um and so smallest pieces of the puzzle um and so smallest pieces of the puzzle um and so in some cases resumes are worthless I in some cases resumes are worthless I in some cases resumes are worthless I actually have a chapter in my book actually have a chapter in my book actually have a chapter in my book called resumes are worthless and it's a called resumes are worthless and it's a called resumes are worthless and it's a little bit of an Overkill you know try little bit of an Overkill you know try little bit of an Overkill you know try attention getting chapter title but it attention getting chapter title but it attention getting chapter title but it kind of speaks to the fact that there's kind of speaks to the fact that there's kind of speaks to the fact that there's so much related to hiring so much related to hiring so much related to hiring uh staff that is beyond experience and uh staff that is beyond experience and uh staff that is beyond experience and education and that would be uh character education and that would be uh character education and that would be uh character you know characters so huge and so you know characters so huge and so you know characters so huge and so important especially when we're hiring important especially when we're hiring important especially when we're hiring for church ministry we don't have time for church ministry we don't have time for church ministry we don't have time to help someone to help someone to help someone um uh learn not to steal or learn to um uh learn not to steal or learn to um uh learn not to steal or learn to keep their pants zipped or learn to be keep their pants zipped or learn to be keep their pants zipped or learn to be honest they have to come you know on honest they have to come you know on honest they have to come you know on staff with a certain level of that other staff with a certain level of that other staff with a certain level of that other things such as uh uh chemistry is is things such as uh uh chemistry is is things such as uh uh chemistry is is huge you know just both chemistry uh huge you know just both chemistry uh huge you know just both chemistry uh Slash culture fit with the church every Slash culture fit with the church every Slash culture fit with the church every church has a unique DNA and I'm finding church has a unique DNA and I'm finding church has a unique DNA and I'm finding that more in my current role that and that more in my current role that and that more in my current role that and it's I think a god-given DNA most of the it's I think a god-given DNA most of the it's I think a god-given DNA most of the time and it's not a right or wrong it

time and it's not a right or wrong it time and it's not a right or wrong it just it's just kind of a thumb it is just it's just kind of a thumb it is just it's just kind of a thumb it is what it is and it's what makes them what it is and it's what makes them what it is and it's what makes them unique and it's so culture fits huge in unique and it's so culture fits huge in unique and it's so culture fits huge in chemistry with the team you can have chemistry with the team you can have chemistry with the team you can have someone with great experience and with someone with great experience and with someone with great experience and with an amazing pedigree and who even kind of an amazing pedigree and who even kind of an amazing pedigree and who even kind of fits the culture but you just don't love fits the culture but you just don't love fits the culture but you just don't love going to lunch with them and there's you going to lunch with them and there's you going to lunch with them and there's you know the chemistry just isn't there and know the chemistry just isn't there and know the chemistry just isn't there and so that's that's huge um how do you how so that's that's huge um how do you how so that's that's huge um how do you how do you test for you know kind of looping do you test for you know kind of looping do you test for you know kind of looping back on a couple of those things so you back on a couple of those things so you back on a couple of those things so you know you're interacting with someone you know you're interacting with someone you know you're interacting with someone you see a bunch of resumes on your desk see a bunch of resumes on your desk see a bunch of resumes on your desk um you know and you're trying to figure um you know and you're trying to figure um you know and you're trying to figure out that both those issues either the out that both those issues either the out that both those issues either the kind of character or or culture fit how kind of character or or culture fit how kind of character or or culture fit how are you are you are you um trying to test for those and um trying to test for those and um trying to test for those and understand those even on the early end understand those even on the early end understand those even on the early end trying to make some you know assessments trying to make some you know assessments trying to make some you know assessments as you're weeding through those resumes as you're weeding through those resumes as you're weeding through those resumes so two answers that one would be as a as so two answers that one would be as a as so two answers that one would be as a as a pastor as I was for 20 years uh in a a pastor as I was for 20 years uh in a a pastor as I was for 20 years uh in a church setting and then the second part church setting and then the second part church setting and then the second part of that would be as a now a search of that would be as a now a search of that would be as a now a search consultant helping church is fine but as consultant helping church is fine but as consultant helping church is fine but as a pastor man you've got such an a pastor man you've got such an a pastor man you've got such an advantage because you have a advantage because you have a advantage because you have a congregation with dozens or hundreds or congregation with dozens or hundreds or congregation with dozens or hundreds or thousands depending on the size of the thousands depending on the size of the thousands depending on the size of the Church of uh people that you see their Church of uh people that you see their Church of uh people that you see their character you see they're fit you know character you see they're fit you know character you see they're fit you know the culture uh whether they get the the culture uh whether they get the the culture uh whether they get the culture or not and so it's really uh culture or not and so it's really uh culture or not and so it's really uh it's an advantage that you know most it's an advantage that you know most it's an advantage that you know most employers corporate employers whatever employers corporate employers whatever employers corporate employers whatever don't have don't have don't have they don't have that Advantage they just they don't have that Advantage they just they don't have that Advantage they just see you know your best in an interview see you know your best in an interview see you know your best in an interview or see your best on a resume and so you or see your best on a resume and so you or see your best on a resume and so you know I think uh look digging into that know I think uh look digging into that know I think uh look digging into that uh when you're hiring someone boy if you

uh when you're hiring someone boy if you uh when you're hiring someone boy if you can find someone and I say this as a can find someone and I say this as a can find someone and I say this as a search consultant but if you can hire search consultant but if you can hire search consultant but if you can hire someone from inside your church first someone from inside your church first someone from inside your church first always the best way to do it you okay always the best way to do it you okay always the best way to do it you okay you know so much about their strengths you know so much about their strengths you know so much about their strengths and weaknesses you've seen them lead and weaknesses you've seen them lead and weaknesses you've seen them lead teams you've seen how they interact with teams you've seen how they interact with teams you've seen how they interact with the team uh you've watched their life the team uh you've watched their life the team uh you've watched their life you know their uh how they handle their you know their uh how they handle their you know their uh how they handle their marriage you know all that stuff and so marriage you know all that stuff and so marriage you know all that stuff and so uh the 129 staff we had 123 of them uh the 129 staff we had 123 of them uh the 129 staff we had 123 of them hadn't been hired from within the church hadn't been hired from within the church hadn't been hired from within the church wow so a big fan of that wow so a big fan of that wow so a big fan of that um as a um as a um as a uh the second part of that answer then uh the second part of that answer then uh the second part of that answer then is now as a search consultant so we is now as a search consultant so we is now as a search consultant so we really dig in one of the things that really dig in one of the things that really dig in one of the things that that we try to do really well is dig in that we try to do really well is dig in that we try to do really well is dig in and understand the culture and and understand the culture and and understand the culture and understand exactly what it is that makes understand exactly what it is that makes understand exactly what it is that makes you know that makes when you when you you know that makes when you when you you know that makes when you when you cut that person and they bleed Harvest cut that person and they bleed Harvest cut that person and they bleed Harvest Church or Grace Chapel or whatever the Church or Grace Chapel or whatever the Church or Grace Chapel or whatever the name of the church is what is that what name of the church is what is that what name of the church is what is that what is that uh Secret Sauce that makes them is that uh Secret Sauce that makes them is that uh Secret Sauce that makes them who they are and so we spent a lot of who they are and so we spent a lot of who they are and so we spent a lot of time on the front side trying to figure time on the front side trying to figure time on the front side trying to figure not only you know who are they what not only you know who are they what not only you know who are they what position are they trying to fill or uh position are they trying to fill or uh position are they trying to fill or uh what kind of person do they want but what kind of person do they want but what kind of person do they want but what's the culture of that what's the culture of that what's the culture of that interesting all right so let's assume interesting all right so let's assume interesting all right so let's assume for a moment that we've got this great for a moment that we've got this great for a moment that we've got this great team of people around us they're team of people around us they're team of people around us they're incredible folks we're just so glad to incredible folks we're just so glad to incredible folks we're just so glad to have them we're build them up they're have them we're build them up they're have them we're build them up they're qualified they're making a big qualified they're making a big qualified they're making a big difference they're you know kicking difference they're you know kicking difference they're you know kicking whatever and taking names uh how do we whatever and taking names uh how do we whatever and taking names uh how do we build the kind of culture that will keep build the kind of culture that will keep build the kind of culture that will keep those folks I know I think that's uh for those folks I know I think that's uh for those folks I know I think that's uh for anyone who's who's had anyone who's who's had anyone who's who's had um you know any size of team that's a um you know any size of team that's a um you know any size of team that's a real issue you know you want you think real issue you know you want you think real issue you know you want you think about that how do we you know retain the

about that how do we you know retain the about that how do we you know retain the people we've got and sure they feel people we've got and sure they feel people we've got and sure they feel super happy and fired up and then super happy and fired up and then super happy and fired up and then ultimately build a kind of culture that ultimately build a kind of culture that ultimately build a kind of culture that will attract other folks sure yeah some will attract other folks sure yeah some will attract other folks sure yeah some you know some quick thoughts on that um you know some quick thoughts on that um you know some quick thoughts on that um and these might seem over simplistic and these might seem over simplistic and these might seem over simplistic um just because we only have a couple um just because we only have a couple um just because we only have a couple minutes but I think they're important uh minutes but I think they're important uh minutes but I think they're important uh one thing is just uh creating a culture one thing is just uh creating a culture one thing is just uh creating a culture where you have fun uh where it's not where you have fun uh where it's not where you have fun uh where it's not just all businesses not just all just all businesses not just all just all businesses not just all transactionalists it's not just all transactionalists it's not just all transactionalists it's not just all every time you're face to face with your every time you're face to face with your every time you're face to face with your staff that you're getting stuff done but staff that you're getting stuff done but staff that you're getting stuff done but you actually are creating space uh to you actually are creating space uh to you actually are creating space uh to have some fun to hang out have some fun to hang out have some fun to hang out um you know and not just required fun uh um you know and not just required fun uh um you know and not just required fun uh you know the party that everyone has to you know the party that everyone has to you know the party that everyone has to go to right the Christmas party yeah go to right the Christmas party yeah go to right the Christmas party yeah exactly but space for uh just just for exactly but space for uh just just for exactly but space for uh just just for people to kind of let down and be able people to kind of let down and be able people to kind of let down and be able to to to um have some of that important Community um have some of that important Community um have some of that important Community time together I think another thing is I time together I think another thing is I time together I think another thing is I think one of the probably most important think one of the probably most important think one of the probably most important ingredients of building culture that we ingredients of building culture that we ingredients of building culture that we did at Granger for years and that we did at Granger for years and that we did at Granger for years and that we started doing early on is um is a staff started doing early on is um is a staff started doing early on is um is a staff meeting and that's going to sound like meeting and that's going to sound like meeting and that's going to sound like oh well great everyone has a staff oh well great everyone has a staff oh well great everyone has a staff meeting so it wasn't the fact that we meeting so it wasn't the fact that we meeting so it wasn't the fact that we had a staff meeting it was it was the had a staff meeting it was it was the had a staff meeting it was it was the ingredients of that um and so there was ingredients of that um and so there was ingredients of that um and so there was two or three things that we did in that two or three things that we did in that two or three things that we did in that every week our staff meeting and I'm every week our staff meeting and I'm every week our staff meeting and I'm talking about all staff so everyone's in talking about all staff so everyone's in talking about all staff so everyone's in the room our staff meeting had nothing the room our staff meeting had nothing the room our staff meeting had nothing to do with getting stuff done uh it was to do with getting stuff done uh it was to do with getting stuff done uh it was it was really a culture building hour uh it was really a culture building hour uh it was really a culture building hour uh every week so we would spend uh 15 or 20 every week so we would spend uh 15 or 20 every week so we would spend uh 15 or 20 minutes together as a staff just telling minutes together as a staff just telling minutes together as a staff just telling stories where have you seen God at work

stories where have you seen God at work stories where have you seen God at work in the life of the church in the last in the life of the church in the last in the life of the church in the last seven to ten days and you know everyone seven to ten days and you know everyone seven to ten days and you know everyone from facility care people to the from facility care people to the from facility care people to the leadership team to everyone in between leadership team to everyone in between leadership team to everyone in between can tell stories and can hear stories can tell stories and can hear stories can tell stories and can hear stories and it just kind of breaks you out of and it just kind of breaks you out of and it just kind of breaks you out of your you know sometimes we get just so your you know sometimes we get just so your you know sometimes we get just so focused in our in a specific area you focused in our in a specific area you focused in our in a specific area you know we're doing students and it feels know we're doing students and it feels know we're doing students and it feels like we're the only ones doing anything like we're the only ones doing anything like we're the only ones doing anything and right nothing else is getting done and right nothing else is getting done and right nothing else is getting done and it just kind of breaks you out of and it just kind of breaks you out of and it just kind of breaks you out of that in it and you might be in a that in it and you might be in a that in it and you might be in a position where you don't see as much position where you don't see as much position where you don't see as much actual fruit like facility care like actual fruit like facility care like actual fruit like facility care like grounds or maintenance or the grounds or maintenance or the grounds or maintenance or the receptionist or whatever and so being receptionist or whatever and so being receptionist or whatever and so being able to see oh wait what I'm doing is able to see oh wait what I'm doing is able to see oh wait what I'm doing is important and and just hearing that important and and just hearing that important and and just hearing that God's doing stuff sometimes the numbers God's doing stuff sometimes the numbers God's doing stuff sometimes the numbers aren't great and so it's like if you're aren't great and so it's like if you're aren't great and so it's like if you're just looking at stats on a piece of just looking at stats on a piece of just looking at stats on a piece of paper it seems like nothing's happening paper it seems like nothing's happening paper it seems like nothing's happening but when you hear stories then you see but when you hear stories then you see but when you hear stories then you see stuff's happening uh so that that kind stuff's happening uh so that that kind stuff's happening uh so that that kind of those kind of culture building of those kind of culture building of those kind of culture building exercises did you do that meeting once a exercises did you do that meeting once a exercises did you do that meeting once a week did you say with everybody likes week did you say with everybody likes week did you say with everybody likes the whole 129 the whole 129 the whole 129 yeah everyone in fact even our part-time yeah everyone in fact even our part-time yeah everyone in fact even our part-time people that might be 10 hours a week as people that might be 10 hours a week as people that might be 10 hours a week as much as possible we said we want you to much as possible we said we want you to much as possible we said we want you to orient an hour of your week uh for the orient an hour of your week uh for the orient an hour of your week uh for the staff meeting we did it on Wednesdays staff meeting we did it on Wednesdays staff meeting we did it on Wednesdays middle of the day 11 30 in the morning middle of the day 11 30 in the morning middle of the day 11 30 in the morning and uh and and tended to have 80 percent and uh and and tended to have 80 percent and uh and and tended to have 80 percent plus participation wow and it was a you plus participation wow and it was a you plus participation wow and it was a you know if you're in town this is kind of know if you're in town this is kind of know if you're in town this is kind of what we do on Wednesdays at 11 30.

what we do on Wednesdays at 11 30. what we do on Wednesdays at 11 30. interesting wow that's that's amazing I interesting wow that's that's amazing I interesting wow that's that's amazing I you know I think a lot of churches have you know I think a lot of churches have you know I think a lot of churches have a hard time getting a lot smaller a hard time getting a lot smaller a hard time getting a lot smaller churches have a hard time getting people churches have a hard time getting people churches have a hard time getting people together once a month let alone once a together once a month let alone once a together once a month let alone once a week so that's uh you know that's week so that's uh you know that's week so that's uh you know that's incredible anything else on that kind of incredible anything else on that kind of incredible anything else on that kind of Staff culture front you'd say some Staff culture front you'd say some Staff culture front you'd say some important stuff to kind of wrestle important stuff to kind of wrestle important stuff to kind of wrestle through through through yeah I would say a couple things if yeah I would say a couple things if yeah I would say a couple things if you're if you're one of the ones in you're if you're one of the ones in you're if you're one of the ones in leadership you have a team whether leadership you have a team whether leadership you have a team whether you're the lead Pastor or you have a you're the lead Pastor or you have a you're the lead Pastor or you have a your director that has a team a couple your director that has a team a couple your director that has a team a couple things there I'd say one would be things there I'd say one would be things there I'd say one would be um giving Authority with responsibility um giving Authority with responsibility um giving Authority with responsibility a lot of times what we tend to do is a lot of times what we tend to do is a lot of times what we tend to do is give responsibility but they have to give responsibility but they have to give responsibility but they have to keep coming back to us for the answers keep coming back to us for the answers keep coming back to us for the answers um so they have you know they have a um so they have you know they have a um so they have you know they have a certain amount of authority but not certain amount of authority but not certain amount of authority but not enough really to do their jobs and enough really to do their jobs and enough really to do their jobs and that's okay if you want to attract a that's okay if you want to attract a that's okay if you want to attract a team that isn't a hot that where you team that isn't a hot that where you team that isn't a hot that where you don't have a team full of high capacity don't have a team full of high capacity don't have a team full of high capacity leaders if you want like really strong leaders if you want like really strong leaders if you want like really strong get it done leaders that will really uh get it done leaders that will really uh get it done leaders that will really uh move the the mission and the vision move the the mission and the vision move the the mission and the vision forward with you and really shake the forward with you and really shake the forward with you and really shake the kingdom then they're those kind of kingdom then they're those kind of kingdom then they're those kind of leaders they want to be able to to make leaders they want to be able to to make leaders they want to be able to to make decisions and to have authority and to decisions and to have authority and to decisions and to have authority and to get stuff done it's not a power player get stuff done it's not a power player get stuff done it's not a power player paragraph it's just how God's wired them paragraph it's just how God's wired them paragraph it's just how God's wired them and uh and a lot of times when and and uh and a lot of times when and and uh and a lot of times when and especially like a church that's small especially like a church that's small especially like a church that's small growing towards mid-sized will struggle growing towards mid-sized will struggle growing towards mid-sized will struggle with this where it's just really hard with this where it's just really hard with this where it's just really hard because one person has been in charge because one person has been in charge because one person has been in charge for a long time and now it's starting to for a long time and now it's starting to for a long time and now it's starting to grow and you're starting to give grow and you're starting to give grow and you're starting to give responsibility away and that's that's responsibility away and that's that's responsibility away and that's that's very difficult and so very difficult and so very difficult and so um I I would just recommend uh if to

um I I would just recommend uh if to um I I would just recommend uh if to find great leaders and then let them you find great leaders and then let them you find great leaders and then let them you know let them lead not you're not know let them lead not you're not know let them lead not you're not letting them lead from day one because letting them lead from day one because letting them lead from day one because you're wanting to grow them up into the you're wanting to grow them up into the you're wanting to grow them up into the culture of the church and especially if culture of the church and especially if culture of the church and especially if you've hired them from outside but you've hired them from outside but you've hired them from outside but ultimately to to hand that off and the ultimately to to hand that off and the ultimately to to hand that off and the other thing I would say related to uh to other thing I would say related to uh to other thing I would say related to uh to that leading team that leading team that leading team as the leader everyone's looking to you as the leader everyone's looking to you as the leader everyone's looking to you for the answers um for the answers um for the answers um but don't walk around giving people but don't walk around giving people but don't walk around giving people answers I think the best leaders are answers I think the best leaders are answers I think the best leaders are walking around asking questions right so walking around asking questions right so walking around asking questions right so true instantly Desiring to learn and uh true instantly Desiring to learn and uh true instantly Desiring to learn and uh and and not assuming they're the and and not assuming they're the and and not assuming they're the smartest person in the room in fact smartest person in the room in fact smartest person in the room in fact assuming the opposite assuming that assuming the opposite assuming that assuming the opposite assuming that there are people smarter than them in there are people smarter than them in there are people smarter than them in given topics than they are and so given topics than they are and so given topics than they are and so constantly Desiring to learn and you constantly Desiring to learn and you constantly Desiring to learn and you will gain it's counterintuitive because will gain it's counterintuitive because will gain it's counterintuitive because if you ask a lot of questions you think if you ask a lot of questions you think if you ask a lot of questions you think that they will think I don't know that they will think I don't know that they will think I don't know anything and you will think then that I anything and you will think then that I anything and you will think then that I will lose my position or my my place for will lose my position or my my place for will lose my position or my my place for leadership and the opposite actually leadership and the opposite actually leadership and the opposite actually happens people respect you when you happens people respect you when you happens people respect you when you respect them and um they their opinion respect them and um they their opinion respect them and um they their opinion grows and their and your your stature grows and their and your your stature grows and their and your your stature grows because you're willing to listen grows because you're willing to listen grows because you're willing to listen and you're willing to learn nice and you're willing to learn nice and you're willing to learn nice coming out in January I actually coming out in January I actually coming out in January I actually pre-ordered it right before we uh we pre-ordered it right before we uh we pre-ordered it right before we uh we started the uh the conversation here on started the uh the conversation here on started the uh the conversation here on Amazon so fairness fairness I was gonna Amazon so fairness fairness I was gonna Amazon so fairness fairness I was gonna say fearness I could write this fairness say fearness I could write this fairness say fearness I could write this fairness is overrated and 51 other leadership is overrated and 51 other leadership is overrated and 51 other leadership principles to revolutionize your principles to revolutionize your principles to revolutionize your workplace so now what is this about workplace so now what is this about workplace so now what is this about um you know give us kind of the the um you know give us kind of the the um you know give us kind of the the Insight on to why you wrote This Book

Insight on to why you wrote This Book Insight on to why you wrote This Book so this is kind of a um a book just to so this is kind of a um a book just to so this is kind of a um a book just to kind of boil down kind of boil down kind of boil down um my thoughts and philosophy of um my thoughts and philosophy of um my thoughts and philosophy of leadership leadership leadership um so it's it comes from probably you um so it's it comes from probably you um so it's it comes from probably you know my most recent five or ten years at know my most recent five or ten years at know my most recent five or ten years at Granger Granger Granger um and my experience there in leading um and my experience there in leading um and my experience there in leading the team there and and leading the the team there and and leading the the team there and and leading the ministry through growth there with the ministry through growth there with the ministry through growth there with the rest of the team and so I kind of boil rest of the team and so I kind of boil rest of the team and so I kind of boil it down into uh four segments uh the it down into uh four segments uh the it down into uh four segments uh the book is the first segment is on uh being book is the first segment is on uh being book is the first segment is on uh being a leader worth following all about kind a leader worth following all about kind a leader worth following all about kind of integrity and the stuff that that of integrity and the stuff that that of integrity and the stuff that that needs to be a foundation of our personal needs to be a foundation of our personal needs to be a foundation of our personal lives in order to be strong leaders the lives in order to be strong leaders the lives in order to be strong leaders the second is on finding great finding a second is on finding great finding a second is on finding great finding a great team building a great team you great team building a great team you great team building a great team you know how do you find staff some on know how do you find staff some on know how do you find staff some on hiring some on firing some on conflict hiring some on firing some on conflict hiring some on firing some on conflict navigation navigation navigation um the third segments on building a um the third segments on building a um the third segments on building a great culture and uh and once you have great culture and uh and once you have great culture and uh and once you have the great team how do you maintain the the great team how do you maintain the the great team how do you maintain the great team and build the culture and great team and build the culture and great team and build the culture and then the fourth segment is on then the fourth segment is on then the fourth segment is on um leading through crisis or transition um leading through crisis or transition um leading through crisis or transition or leading through great change most or leading through great change most or leading through great change most leaders if you think of any great leader leaders if you think of any great leader leaders if you think of any great leader uh in history you probably can think of uh in history you probably can think of uh in history you probably can think of their leadership through some transition their leadership through some transition their leadership through some transition that they LED through so true yeah so 99 that they LED through so true yeah so 99 that they LED through so true yeah so 99 days out of 100 uh maybe in the church days out of 100 uh maybe in the church days out of 100 uh maybe in the church it's only 89 days out of 100.

it's only 89 days out of 100. it's only 89 days out of 100. but you'll have 10 days 10 of the time but you'll have 10 days 10 of the time but you'll have 10 days 10 of the time where you've got something you've got to where you've got something you've got to where you've got something you've got to lead through and it just requires lead through and it just requires lead through and it just requires um what's already been built in your um what's already been built in your um what's already been built in your life and what's already true about you life and what's already true about you life and what's already true about you to be able to lead through that with to be able to lead through that with to be able to lead through that with with strength and so the book is focused with strength and so the book is focused with strength and so the book is focused uh equal parts towards uh equal parts towards uh equal parts towards um pastors and church leaders and um pastors and church leaders and um pastors and church leaders and Christian leaders in the marketplace Christian leaders in the marketplace Christian leaders in the marketplace I've really tried to balance that uh I've really tried to balance that uh I've really tried to balance that uh equally because so much of it's equally because so much of it's equally because so much of it's transferable uh from Marketplace to to transferable uh from Marketplace to to transferable uh from Marketplace to to church leadership nice well I'd church leadership nice well I'd church leadership nice well I'd encourage people listening in to get a encourage people listening in to get a encourage people listening in to get a chance to order it I Tim's one of those chance to order it I Tim's one of those chance to order it I Tim's one of those guys I trust look forward to reading it guys I trust look forward to reading it guys I trust look forward to reading it and look forward to hearing what uh what and look forward to hearing what uh what and look forward to hearing what uh what you have to say and learning from that you have to say and learning from that you have to say and learning from that uh just one last question before we jump uh just one last question before we jump uh just one last question before we jump into the lightning round you know I I into the lightning round you know I I into the lightning round you know I I love the fact that you're um you know love the fact that you're um you know love the fact that you're um you know because you've been such an advocate for because you've been such an advocate for because you've been such an advocate for and you mentioned it earlier I wasn't and you mentioned it earlier I wasn't and you mentioned it earlier I wasn't going to say it but you mentioned it how going to say it but you mentioned it how going to say it but you mentioned it how so many of your staff at Grainger were so many of your staff at Grainger were so many of your staff at Grainger were internal rather than external and now internal rather than external and now internal rather than external and now you're working for a search organization you're working for a search organization you're working for a search organization has that created internal tension uh in has that created internal tension uh in has that created internal tension uh in your own world or no that's a great your own world or no that's a great your own world or no that's a great question uh it really hasn't so my question uh it really hasn't so my question uh it really hasn't so my experience when I hired vanderbloomen experience when I hired vanderbloomen experience when I hired vanderbloomen was we had some someone internally we was we had some someone internally we was we had some someone internally we were looking at and so Vander blumen were looking at and so Vander blumen were looking at and so Vander blumen came alongside of us and said uh you came alongside of us and said uh you came alongside of us and said uh you know we'll look we'll help you determine know we'll look we'll help you determine know we'll look we'll help you determine if this person is the right for your if this person is the right for your if this person is the right for your position and will bring others and position and will bring others and position and will bring others and there's no uh there's no there's no uh there's no there's no uh there's no um you know skin in the game as far as um you know skin in the game as far as um you know skin in the game as far as uh you know when we come alongside our uh you know when we come alongside our uh you know when we come alongside our church whether whether they hire someone church whether whether they hire someone church whether whether they hire someone from inside or outside doesn't matter to from inside or outside doesn't matter to from inside or outside doesn't matter to us at all as long as we can help them

us at all as long as we can help them us at all as long as we can help them find the right person for that job so find the right person for that job so find the right person for that job so um a lot of times what uh pastors and um a lot of times what uh pastors and um a lot of times what uh pastors and leaders have a hard time and I had a leaders have a hard time and I had a leaders have a hard time and I had a hard time of this is you know Sundays hard time of this is you know Sundays hard time of this is you know Sundays are so regular and and for any level of are so regular and and for any level of are so regular and and for any level of Staff you got things that are just Staff you got things that are just Staff you got things that are just happening so one you don't typically happening so one you don't typically happening so one you don't typically have the training uh to hire uh you know have the training uh to hire uh you know have the training uh to hire uh you know you're not trained as a Personnel you're not trained as a Personnel you're not trained as a Personnel recruiter or whatever so there's that recruiter or whatever so there's that recruiter or whatever so there's that and then secondly you just don't have and then secondly you just don't have and then secondly you just don't have the time that it requires to focus and the time that it requires to focus and the time that it requires to focus and you don't have the um the margin to get you don't have the um the margin to get you don't have the um the margin to get it wrong right and any of us who have it wrong right and any of us who have it wrong right and any of us who have hired someone and got it wrong and we hired someone and got it wrong and we hired someone and got it wrong and we know the months sometimes you might be a know the months sometimes you might be a know the months sometimes you might be a couple years that you'll lose uh in that couple years that you'll lose uh in that couple years that you'll lose uh in that process and so we just like to come process and so we just like to come process and so we just like to come alongside pastors and help kind of take alongside pastors and help kind of take alongside pastors and help kind of take that burden off their plate and if they that burden off their plate and if they that burden off their plate and if they have some internal candidates they want have some internal candidates they want have some internal candidates they want us to look at us to look at us to look at um totally will and some churches will um totally will and some churches will um totally will and some churches will hire uh internal candidates after we've hire uh internal candidates after we've hire uh internal candidates after we've gone through process and some will hire gone through process and some will hire gone through process and some will hire external ones that we can find very cool external ones that we can find very cool external ones that we can find very cool yeah we've been through that pain of yeah we've been through that pain of yeah we've been through that pain of yeah gosh that was the wrong hire for yeah gosh that was the wrong hire for yeah gosh that was the wrong hire for sure this is the on Seminary podcast sure this is the on Seminary podcast sure this is the on Seminary podcast stuff you wish they taught in seminary stuff you wish they taught in seminary stuff you wish they taught in seminary well we're going to jump into the well we're going to jump into the well we're going to jump into the lightning round this is the part of the lightning round this is the part of the lightning round this is the part of the show where we ask similar questions of show where we ask similar questions of show where we ask similar questions of everyone who's on the show today super everyone who's on the show today super everyone who's on the show today super excited to have Tim Stevens with us a excited to have Tim Stevens with us a excited to have Tim Stevens with us a great leader one of those folks you great leader one of those folks you great leader one of those folks you should take some time to listen in in on should take some time to listen in in on should take some time to listen in in on and and follow so Tim what's an online and and follow so Tim what's an online and and follow so Tim what's an online resource that you're using these days resource that you're using these days resource that you're using these days that's just been particularly helpful that's just been particularly helpful that's just been particularly helpful for you for you for you yeah so one uh new one that I'm just yeah so one uh new one that I'm just yeah so one uh new one that I'm just started using it's called Wunderlist started using it's called Wunderlist started using it's called Wunderlist w-u-n-d-r-l-i-s-t uh so I'll use it w-u-n-d-r-l-i-s-t uh so I'll use it w-u-n-d-r-l-i-s-t uh so I'll use it personally it's just basically a to-do

personally it's just basically a to-do personally it's just basically a to-do list that can be synced across devices list that can be synced across devices list that can be synced across devices and synced across synced with your team and synced across synced with your team and synced across synced with your team uh so use it for uh both personally uh so use it for uh both personally uh so use it for uh both personally um various lists as well as with our um various lists as well as with our um various lists as well as with our leadership team that's how we like leadership team that's how we like leadership team that's how we like establish our agendas for our weekly establish our agendas for our weekly establish our agendas for our weekly leadership meetings we just all can add leadership meetings we just all can add leadership meetings we just all can add things to the Wunderlist and then we sit things to the Wunderlist and then we sit things to the Wunderlist and then we sit there Friday mornings and go through it there Friday mornings and go through it there Friday mornings and go through it cool uh what's a book you've read in the cool uh what's a book you've read in the cool uh what's a book you've read in the last six months to a year that's had an last six months to a year that's had an last six months to a year that's had an impact on your thinking so one I I read impact on your thinking so one I I read impact on your thinking so one I I read recently it's called the new gold recently it's called the new gold recently it's called the new gold standard and it's it's the story of uh standard and it's it's the story of uh standard and it's it's the story of uh the Ritz Carlton not necessarily the the Ritz Carlton not necessarily the the Ritz Carlton not necessarily the story uh more uh some background to how story uh more uh some background to how story uh more uh some background to how they service guests and I just think any they service guests and I just think any they service guests and I just think any church leader or business owner would be church leader or business owner would be church leader or business owner would be great book to read Because kind of how great book to read Because kind of how great book to read Because kind of how they think about their guests and how they think about their guests and how they think about their guests and how they think about their staff it just they think about their staff it just they think about their staff it just kind of takes it to a new level well I kind of takes it to a new level well I kind of takes it to a new level well I think you're the third person to mention think you're the third person to mention think you're the third person to mention that book so I I guess I gotta get it on that book so I I guess I gotta get it on that book so I I guess I gotta get it on my list so you better get it on the list my list so you better get it on the list my list so you better get it on the list add it to your Wonder list yeah exactly add it to your Wonder list yeah exactly add it to your Wonder list yeah exactly is there another Ministry that you're is there another Ministry that you're is there another Ministry that you're looking to these days that you're looking to these days that you're looking to these days that you're finding particularly inspiring finding particularly inspiring finding particularly inspiring do you know do you know do you know um one cool thing about my job now is I um one cool thing about my job now is I um one cool thing about my job now is I get to work with a ton of churches and get to work with a ton of churches and get to work with a ton of churches and so it seems like and and uh many so it seems like and and uh many so it seems like and and uh many churches outside of circles that I've churches outside of circles that I've churches outside of circles that I've typically ran in and so that's pretty typically ran in and so that's pretty typically ran in and so that's pretty fun and pretty cool and honestly I I fun and pretty cool and honestly I I fun and pretty cool and honestly I I Come Away inspired by something at every Come Away inspired by something at every Come Away inspired by something at every church I visit um recently at a a church I visit um recently at a a church I visit um recently at a a smaller United congregational United smaller United congregational United smaller United congregational United Church of Christ uh Church in the New Church of Christ uh Church in the New Church of Christ uh Church in the New York City area that was very encouraging

York City area that was very encouraging York City area that was very encouraging we're working with Harvest Church in we're working with Harvest Church in we're working with Harvest Church in Billings Montana very encouraging Billings Montana very encouraging Billings Montana very encouraging Crossroads Grace in Manteca California Crossroads Grace in Manteca California Crossroads Grace in Manteca California so yes I'm inspired by uh specifically so yes I'm inspired by uh specifically so yes I'm inspired by uh specifically local churches of all sizes it's very local churches of all sizes it's very local churches of all sizes it's very cool to see what God's doing through the cool to see what God's doing through the cool to see what God's doing through the local churches very cool all right if local churches very cool all right if local churches very cool all right if you could get 15 minutes with any leader you could get 15 minutes with any leader you could get 15 minutes with any leader alive today pick their brain get to know alive today pick their brain get to know alive today pick their brain get to know learn from them a little bit who would learn from them a little bit who would learn from them a little bit who would that be and why that be and why that be and why do you know do you know do you know um I think uh George W bush uh not from um I think uh George W bush uh not from um I think uh George W bush uh not from uh I mean there's there's plenty about uh I mean there's there's plenty about uh I mean there's there's plenty about his his leadership or his decisions that his his leadership or his decisions that his his leadership or his decisions that I agreed with and disagreed with but he I agreed with and disagreed with but he I agreed with and disagreed with but he seemed to be a leader who was always seemed to be a leader who was always seemed to be a leader who was always very confident in Direction and very very confident in Direction and very very confident in Direction and very unmoved by what people thought and I unmoved by what people thought and I unmoved by what people thought and I remember him saying you know several remember him saying you know several remember him saying you know several times when when he would be interviewed times when when he would be interviewed times when when he would be interviewed he would just say you know history will he would just say you know history will he would just say you know history will determine that that's not up to me and determine that that's not up to me and determine that that's not up to me and it's almost as though you know I'm it's almost as though you know I'm it's almost as though you know I'm making decisions I'm I'm making the best making decisions I'm I'm making the best making decisions I'm I'm making the best ones I can we'll figure out you know in ones I can we'll figure out you know in ones I can we'll figure out you know in the future whether they were the right the future whether they were the right the future whether they were the right or the wrong decisions and I just really or the wrong decisions and I just really or the wrong decisions and I just really kind of respect that confidence and that kind of respect that confidence and that kind of respect that confidence and that stability I'd love to pick his brain stability I'd love to pick his brain stability I'd love to pick his brain about that absolutely very cool now that about that absolutely very cool now that about that absolutely very cool now that I live in Texas I'm closer to him so who I live in Texas I'm closer to him so who I live in Texas I'm closer to him so who knows knows knows exactly maybe he'll run into him one exactly maybe he'll run into him one exactly maybe he'll run into him one maybe I'll run into him great well uh maybe I'll run into him great well uh maybe I'll run into him great well uh when you're when you're not out helping when you're when you're not out helping when you're when you're not out helping churches find great leaders or help them churches find great leaders or help them churches find great leaders or help them build great teams what do you do for fun build great teams what do you do for fun build great teams what do you do for fun just to kind of kick back in your own just to kind of kick back in your own just to kind of kick back in your own personal life how do you relax personal life how do you relax personal life how do you relax I love to play tennis I love to play tennis I love to play tennis and uh and that's that's gotten back and uh and that's that's gotten back and uh and that's that's gotten back into that last two years I love anything into that last two years I love anything into that last two years I love anything I love home projects you know the I love home projects you know the I love home projects you know the handyman projects building stuff

handyman projects building stuff handyman projects building stuff um I I will around here but I'm in um I I will around here but I'm in um I I will around here but I'm in Houston while my family's still in Houston while my family's still in Houston while my family's still in Indiana here for the next little while Indiana here for the next little while Indiana here for the next little while so I got some free time in the evenings so I got some free time in the evenings so I got some free time in the evenings I'll just walk through houses under I'll just walk through houses under I'll just walk through houses under construction I just love the smell of construction I just love the smell of construction I just love the smell of lumber I love to walk through a Home lumber I love to walk through a Home lumber I love to walk through a Home Depot just walk the aisles it just it Depot just walk the aisles it just it Depot just walk the aisles it just it just uh it's very invigorating for me oh just uh it's very invigorating for me oh just uh it's very invigorating for me oh gosh I I respect that we redid our gosh I I respect that we redid our gosh I I respect that we redid our kitchen or I should say this I had a kitchen or I should say this I had a kitchen or I should say this I had a friend of mine redo our kitchen this friend of mine redo our kitchen this friend of mine redo our kitchen this spring and so my job was the go to Home spring and so my job was the go to Home spring and so my job was the go to Home Depot guy okay go and get this go and Depot guy okay go and get this go and Depot guy okay go and get this go and get this and um I'm just all thumbs when get this and um I'm just all thumbs when get this and um I'm just all thumbs when I go in there I just it's all foreign to I go in there I just it's all foreign to I go in there I just it's all foreign to me so Tim I really appreciate you being me so Tim I really appreciate you being me so Tim I really appreciate you being on the show today if people want to get on the show today if people want to get on the show today if people want to get in touch with you or with Vander blueman in touch with you or with Vander blueman in touch with you or with Vander blueman or you know how can they do that how can or you know how can they do that how can or you know how can they do that how can they get in touch with your organization they get in touch with your organization they get in touch with your organization yeah so I blog at leadingsmart.com and yeah so I blog at leadingsmart.com and yeah so I blog at leadingsmart.com and so that's a great way to tune in my so that's a great way to tune in my so that's a great way to tune in my email's on there as well but um but also email's on there as well but um but also email's on there as well but um but also an easy way to get me is Tim at an easy way to get me is Tim at an easy way to get me is Tim at leadingsmart.com that's right zero to leadingsmart.com that's right zero to leadingsmart.com that's right zero to smell that spell than vanderbloomen so smell that spell than vanderbloomen so smell that spell than vanderbloomen so yeah and Twitter uh at timay Stevens Tim yeah and Twitter uh at timay Stevens Tim yeah and Twitter uh at timay Stevens Tim a Stevens perfect well that's great a Stevens perfect well that's great a Stevens perfect well that's great thank you so much we'll uh we'll link to thank you so much we'll uh we'll link to thank you so much we'll uh we'll link to the uh the fairness is overrated book as the uh the fairness is overrated book as the uh the fairness is overrated book as well on the show notes so thank you so well on the show notes so thank you so well on the show notes so thank you so much for for being here today and just much for for being here today and just much for for being here today and just really appreciate you sharing with us really appreciate you sharing with us really appreciate you sharing with us awesome thanks for the time thank you awesome thanks for the time thank you awesome thanks for the time thank you for tuning in to this week's on Seminary for tuning in to this week's on Seminary for tuning in to this week's on Seminary podcast don't be shy we'd love to podcast don't be shy we'd love to podcast don't be shy we'd love to connect check out unseminary inbox you connect check out unseminary inbox you connect check out unseminary inbox you can sign up at unseminary.com and we'll can sign up at unseminary.com and we'll can sign up at unseminary.com and we'll send you helpful training resources send you helpful training resources send you helpful training resources every week plus you'll gain immediate every week plus you'll gain immediate every week plus you'll gain immediate access to our exclusive members area access to our exclusive members area access to our exclusive members area with tons of resources you can use

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