Derwin Gray on Racial Reconciliation as a Gospel Imperative

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to the unset Maneri podcast my welcome to the unset Maneri podcast my welcome to the unset Maneri podcast my name is rich the host around these parts name is rich the host around these parts name is rich the host around these parts so glad that you've decided to spend so glad that you've decided to spend so glad that you've decided to spend some time with us today I'm really glad some time with us today I'm really glad some time with us today I'm really glad that you would you take time out I know that you would you take time out I know that you would you take time out I know you're super busy at your church you've you're super busy at your church you've you're super busy at your church you've got a lot going on and we're honored got a lot going on and we're honored got a lot going on and we're honored that you would put us in your eardrums that you would put us in your eardrums that you would put us in your eardrums today and listen in and lean in I think today and listen in and lean in I think today and listen in and lean in I think you're going to be encouraged hopefully you're going to be encouraged hopefully you're going to be encouraged hopefully challenged by today's conversation with challenged by today's conversation with challenged by today's conversation with Pastor Derwin gwit gray you may have Pastor Derwin gwit gray you may have Pastor Derwin gwit gray you may have heard of pastor Durham and he's a heard of pastor Durham and he's a heard of pastor Durham and he's a fantastic leader leads in a church fantastic leader leads in a church fantastic leader leads in a church called transformation Church and it's a called transformation Church and it's a called transformation Church and it's a great Church multi-ethnic great Church multi-ethnic great Church multi-ethnic multi-generational mission shaped multi-generational mission shaped multi-generational mission shaped community with two locations just south community with two locations just south community with two locations just south of Charlotte North Carolina of Charlotte North Carolina of Charlotte North Carolina welcome to the show today pastor hey

welcome to the show today pastor hey welcome to the show today pastor hey thank you I'm honored to be on with you thank you I'm honored to be on with you thank you I'm honored to be on with you I'm just so honored that you would take I'm just so honored that you would take I'm just so honored that you would take some time out to be with us if people some time out to be with us if people some time out to be with us if people wanted to know a little bit about wanted to know a little bit about wanted to know a little bit about transformation kind of tell us the story transformation kind of tell us the story transformation kind of tell us the story of your church a relatively new church of your church a relatively new church of your church a relatively new church but give us a kind of a flavor of what's but give us a kind of a flavor of what's but give us a kind of a flavor of what's happening at transformation these days happening at transformation these days happening at transformation these days yeah so my wife and I both grew up yeah so my wife and I both grew up yeah so my wife and I both grew up unchurched I'm from San Antonio tip unchurched I'm from San Antonio tip unchurched I'm from San Antonio tip Texas she's from Darby Montana Texas she's from Darby Montana Texas she's from Darby Montana I'm from the urban context she's from a I'm from the urban context she's from a I'm from the urban context she's from a rural context we met at Brigham Young rural context we met at Brigham Young rural context we met at Brigham Young University my freshman year so we had University my freshman year so we had University my freshman year so we had two non-mormons black kid white kid at a two non-mormons black kid white kid at a two non-mormons black kid white kid at a mormon school we got married in college mormon school we got married in college mormon school we got married in college and my first year in NFL is when I heard and my first year in NFL is when I heard and my first year in NFL is when I heard the gospel and all its pureness proclaim the gospel and all its pureness proclaim the gospel and all its pureness proclaim there was there was there was woman at my wife's job who communicated woman at my wife's job who communicated woman at my wife's job who communicated a gospel to her as well so I played for a gospel to her as well so I played for a gospel to her as well so I played for the Indianapolis Colts and I had a the Indianapolis Colts and I had a the Indianapolis Colts and I had a teammate who shared Christ with me teammate who shared Christ with me teammate who shared Christ with me mm-hmm and on August 2nd 1997 is when I mm-hmm and on August 2nd 1997 is when I mm-hmm and on August 2nd 1997 is when I came to faith my wife came to faith came to faith my wife came to faith came to faith my wife came to faith about six months before me and then we about six months before me and then we about six months before me and then we moved to Charlotte so I could play for moved to Charlotte so I could play for moved to Charlotte so I could play for the Panthers played for the Panthers got the Panthers played for the Panthers got the Panthers played for the Panthers got invited to go speak at a youth event it invited to go speak at a youth event it invited to go speak at a youth event it went great went great went great started getting invitations to speak all started getting invitations to speak all started getting invitations to speak all over the country and my wife and I over the country and my wife and I over the country and my wife and I noticed something that disturbed us we noticed something that disturbed us we noticed something that disturbed us we noticed that the secular world was more noticed that the secular world was more noticed that the secular world was more diverse and integrated than Jesus's diverse and integrated than Jesus's diverse and integrated than Jesus's world meaning the church was the most world meaning the church was the most world meaning the church was the most segregated place we had ever experienced segregated place we had ever experienced segregated place we had ever experienced we remember being in a nightclub and you we remember being in a nightclub and you we remember being in a nightclub and you had every nation tribe and tongue mm-hmm had every nation tribe and tongue mm-hmm had every nation tribe and tongue mm-hmm their unit and when we came to the

their unit and when we came to the their unit and when we came to the church it was like you know you had a church it was like you know you had a church it was like you know you had a few options she could go to the white few options she could go to the white few options she could go to the white church or you could go to the black church or you could go to the black church or you could go to the black church and not being a Christian very church and not being a Christian very church and not being a Christian very long I looked in the Bible for white long I looked in the Bible for white long I looked in the Bible for white church or black church and all I could church or black church and all I could church or black church and all I could find was the Ecklie Asiya and according find was the Ecklie Asiya and according find was the Ecklie Asiya and according to the Apostle Paul the Ecklie Asiya the to the Apostle Paul the Ecklie Asiya the to the Apostle Paul the Ecklie Asiya the church did he build a people who were church did he build a people who were church did he build a people who were called out or Jewish people and Gentiles called out or Jewish people and Gentiles called out or Jewish people and Gentiles and Gentiles as everybody else other and Gentiles as everybody else other and Gentiles as everybody else other than Jews and I began to study the than Jews and I began to study the than Jews and I began to study the first-century context of the greco-roman first-century context of the greco-roman first-century context of the greco-roman world and I seen that the racism the world and I seen that the racism the world and I seen that the racism the injustice was a hurricane of violence in injustice was a hurricane of violence in injustice was a hurricane of violence in right in the center of that hurricane right in the center of that hurricane right in the center of that hurricane was Jesus's people called the church who was Jesus's people called the church who was Jesus's people called the church who were unifying former enemies and they were unifying former enemies and they were unifying former enemies and they became friends so I began to ask pastors became friends so I began to ask pastors became friends so I began to ask pastors if if this is true about the early if if this is true about the early if if this is true about the early church why are we so segregated down so church why are we so segregated down so church why are we so segregated down so I got horrible answers and God said I got horrible answers and God said I got horrible answers and God said don't criticize create so on February 7 don't criticize create so on February 7 don't criticize create so on February 7 2010 my wife and I along with a few 2010 my wife and I along with a few 2010 my wife and I along with a few other folks planted transformation other folks planted transformation other folks planted transformation church at our opening service 701 people church at our opening service 701 people church at our opening service 701 people came and we've been growing incredibly came and we've been growing incredibly came and we've been growing incredibly fast fast fast ever since we're about 3,000 we've got ever since we're about 3,000 we've got ever since we're about 3,000 we've got four campuses 202 of which are in four campuses 202 of which are in four campuses 202 of which are in prisons and so the giving is horrible prisons and so the giving is horrible prisons and so the giving is horrible but but but riches are phenomenal and so for us a riches are phenomenal and so for us a riches are phenomenal and so for us a transformation church our metric is transformation church our metric is transformation church our metric is vastly different and I don't say that

vastly different and I don't say that vastly different and I don't say that egotistical but for us our metrics are egotistical but for us our metrics are egotistical but for us our metrics are not just how many people are in the not just how many people are in the not just how many people are in the building but as are we embodying the building but as are we embodying the building but as are we embodying the gospel meaning the rule and reign of gospel meaning the rule and reign of gospel meaning the rule and reign of Jesus through ethnic reconciliation Jesus through ethnic reconciliation Jesus through ethnic reconciliation social economic just as Jesus talked a social economic just as Jesus talked a social economic just as Jesus talked a lot about the poor through discipleship lot about the poor through discipleship lot about the poor through discipleship like that's kind of a big one you know like that's kind of a big one you know like that's kind of a big one you know those are our metrics of success because those are our metrics of success because those are our metrics of success because you know we've been an outreach okay so you know we've been an outreach okay so you know we've been an outreach okay so like we've done that our name is in a like we've done that our name is in a like we've done that our name is in a magazine that's awesome all right but magazine that's awesome all right but magazine that's awesome all right but but here's what I want to know is how but here's what I want to know is how but here's what I want to know is how different is our community mmm because different is our community mmm because different is our community mmm because transformation church it exists you know transformation church it exists you know transformation church it exists you know we've adopted for schools prisons are we've adopted for schools prisons are we've adopted for schools prisons are being transformed baptized nearly 400 being transformed baptized nearly 400 being transformed baptized nearly 400 people this year we're gonna have people this year we're gonna have people this year we're gonna have another baptism so we don't think you another baptism so we don't think you another baptism so we don't think you have to separate or segregate no pun have to separate or segregate no pun have to separate or segregate no pun intended intended intended mmm fast church growth and biblical mmm fast church growth and biblical mmm fast church growth and biblical justice and reconciliation but I like justice and reconciliation but I like justice and reconciliation but I like this is we need more cross eyed people a this is we need more cross eyed people a this is we need more cross eyed people a dinner Osteen mm-hmm a horizontal beam dinner Osteen mm-hmm a horizontal beam dinner Osteen mm-hmm a horizontal beam vertical beam this connection to God vertical beam this connection to God vertical beam this connection to God yeah pizanno is reconciliation enemies yeah pizanno is reconciliation enemies yeah pizanno is reconciliation enemies become friends so our ethnic diversity become friends so our ethnic diversity become friends so our ethnic diversity and how we go about these challenges and how we go about these challenges and how we go about these challenges have actually become a witnessing or have actually become a witnessing or have actually become a witnessing or evangelistic tool particularly to evangelistic tool particularly to evangelistic tool particularly to Millennials who who go yeah all my Millennials who who go yeah all my Millennials who who go yeah all my friends are ethnically too diverse but friends are ethnically too diverse but friends are ethnically too diverse but then you force me to go to a segregated

then you force me to go to a segregated then you force me to go to a segregated church that I just doesn't make any church that I just doesn't make any church that I just doesn't make any sense um so you know I think the way sense um so you know I think the way sense um so you know I think the way people describe transformation churches people describe transformation churches people describe transformation churches with one look with one word they say with one look with one word they say with one look with one word they say this place is loving like you people this place is loving like you people this place is loving like you people loving and so I'll take that any day loving and so I'll take that any day loving and so I'll take that any day loool hip all that kind of stuff yeah I loool hip all that kind of stuff yeah I loool hip all that kind of stuff yeah I think there is a sense within kind of think there is a sense within kind of think there is a sense within kind of think the broader Christian community think the broader Christian community think the broader Christian community that the attraction alert model that was that the attraction alert model that was that the attraction alert model that was really a lot of it was built on this really a lot of it was built on this really a lot of it was built on this homogeneous unit idea right that that homogeneous unit idea right that that homogeneous unit idea right that that get people who are similar get people who are similar get people who are similar try to reach those folks you know the try to reach those folks you know the try to reach those folks you know the idea of you know you would set up kind idea of you know you would set up kind idea of you know you would set up kind of a you know a particular very narrowly of a you know a particular very narrowly of a you know a particular very narrowly targeted individual you're trying to targeted individual you're trying to targeted individual you're trying to reach I think there's a there is a sense reach I think there's a there is a sense reach I think there's a there is a sense that that has cut is kind of run its that that has cut is kind of run its that that has cut is kind of run its course and part of what I love about course and part of what I love about course and part of what I love about what's happening at transformation what's happening at transformation what's happening at transformation church is you're asking a different church is you're asking a different church is you're asking a different question and you're saying is there question and you're saying is there question and you're saying is there something beyond that so church leaders something beyond that so church leaders something beyond that so church leaders that are listening in today that are that are listening in today that are that are listening in today that are saying yes I so I'm in a church that's saying yes I so I'm in a church that's saying yes I so I'm in a church that's you know they're saying maybe you know you know they're saying maybe you know you know they're saying maybe you know our church isn't that isn't that our church isn't that isn't that our church isn't that isn't that racially diverse but we want to be we racially diverse but we want to be we racially diverse but we want to be we want to take steps in that direction want to take steps in that direction want to take steps in that direction what does that look like how do you what does that look like how do you what does that look like how do you coach other you know church leaders to coach other you know church leaders to coach other you know church leaders to think about and take action on that yeah think about and take action on that yeah think about and take action on that yeah the first thing that I do is is I tell the first thing that I do is is I tell the first thing that I do is is I tell them that it has to be more than a them that it has to be more than a them that it has to be more than a sociological need that you want to feel sociological need that you want to feel sociological need that you want to feel but it has to be a part of your but it has to be a part of your but it has to be a part of your theological conviction or that's good theological conviction or that's good theological conviction or that's good that this isn't something I want to do that this isn't something I want to do that this isn't something I want to do because of culture this is something because of culture this is something because of culture this is something that I want to do because I believe it's

that I want to do because I believe it's that I want to do because I believe it's the outflow of the gospel the gospel is the outflow of the gospel the gospel is the outflow of the gospel the gospel is more than I get to go to heaven when I more than I get to go to heaven when I more than I get to go to heaven when I die the gospel is a royal announcement die the gospel is a royal announcement die the gospel is a royal announcement that through Jesus's life death that through Jesus's life death that through Jesus's life death resurrection ascension and sinning of resurrection ascension and sinning of resurrection ascension and sinning of the Spirit a church has been formed to the Spirit a church has been formed to the Spirit a church has been formed to be a foretaste of the kingdom to come be a foretaste of the kingdom to come be a foretaste of the kingdom to come and his church is Jews and Gentiles and his church is Jews and Gentiles and his church is Jews and Gentiles who've been reconciled through the body who've been reconciled through the body who've been reconciled through the body of Christ that as Ephesians 2:14 says of Christ that as Ephesians 2:14 says of Christ that as Ephesians 2:14 says there's a new humanity and this humanity there's a new humanity and this humanity there's a new humanity and this humanity is a multi-ethnic humanity and so that's is a multi-ethnic humanity and so that's is a multi-ethnic humanity and so that's the first thing that I would say is your the first thing that I would say is your the first thing that I would say is your theology and put down these pop theology and put down these pop theology and put down these pop psychology culture book stop going to psychology culture book stop going to psychology culture book stop going to conferences for a while and just get conferences for a while and just get conferences for a while and just get along with the New Testament read Scott along with the New Testament read Scott along with the New Testament read Scott McKnight and NT right and really McKnight and NT right and really McKnight and NT right and really understand the first century second understand the first century second understand the first century second temple Jewish greco-roman world and temple Jewish greco-roman world and temple Jewish greco-roman world and you'll see oh my gosh every one of you'll see oh my gosh every one of you'll see oh my gosh every one of Paul's letters dealt with how does Jesus Paul's letters dealt with how does Jesus Paul's letters dealt with how does Jesus become the super glue to make enemies become the super glue to make enemies become the super glue to make enemies friends so that they can image forth the friends so that they can image forth the friends so that they can image forth the glory of God awesome all I'm trying to glory of God awesome all I'm trying to glory of God awesome all I'm trying to say is God made a covenant with Abraham say is God made a covenant with Abraham say is God made a covenant with Abraham through you all the families of the through you all the families of the through you all the families of the earth will be blessed Jesus is the earth will be blessed Jesus is the earth will be blessed Jesus is the blessing blessing blessing Jesus is the glue to create this family Jesus is the glue to create this family Jesus is the glue to create this family yes globally we are a family but locally yes globally we are a family but locally yes globally we are a family but locally he's he's he's ominous to that this how how sad is this ominous to that this how how sad is this ominous to that this how how sad is this local churches are 10 percent or 10 local churches are 10 percent or 10 local churches are 10 percent or 10 times more segregated than the schools times more segregated than the schools times more segregated than the schools they're near and 20 times more

they're near and 20 times more they're near and 20 times more segregated than the neighborhoods there segregated than the neighborhoods there segregated than the neighborhoods there so what does that tell you it tells you so what does that tell you it tells you so what does that tell you it tells you that we as church leaders have built that we as church leaders have built that we as church leaders have built churches to fit consumers it's not about churches to fit consumers it's not about churches to fit consumers it's not about sewers it's about fully devoted sewers it's about fully devoted sewers it's about fully devoted followers of Christ who put down their followers of Christ who put down their followers of Christ who put down their preferences and pick up their crosses preferences and pick up their crosses preferences and pick up their crosses because it's not about me it's about the because it's not about me it's about the because it's not about me it's about the we for the glory of God like we need a we for the glory of God like we need a we for the glory of God like we need a new narrative I'm frustrated no I new narrative I'm frustrated no I new narrative I'm frustrated no I appreciate that during I you know I appreciate that during I you know I appreciate that during I you know I think I appreciate you pushing me so think I appreciate you pushing me so think I appreciate you pushing me so even you know we benchmark against our even you know we benchmark against our even you know we benchmark against our you know what are the kind of statistics you know what are the kind of statistics you know what are the kind of statistics in New Jersey and we're saying we want in New Jersey and we're saying we want in New Jersey and we're saying we want our church to kind of reflect that and our church to kind of reflect that and our church to kind of reflect that and we've made really good strides and we've made really good strides and we've made really good strides and things are you know actually you know things are you know actually you know things are you know actually you know pretty good on that I feel pretty good pretty good on that I feel pretty good pretty good on that I feel pretty good confident on that but I think the confident on that but I think the confident on that but I think the appreciate the thing you're pushing on appreciate the thing you're pushing on appreciate the thing you're pushing on is ask a bigger question than just what is ask a bigger question than just what is ask a bigger question than just what are the statistics say what are the are the statistics say what are the are the statistics say what are the scioscia we know what is the Sociology scioscia we know what is the Sociology scioscia we know what is the Sociology say about your community how are you say about your community how are you say about your community how are you seeing churches you know how it seeing churches you know how it seeing churches you know how it transformation is you're swimming transformation is you're swimming transformation is you're swimming upstream on this issue your church is upstream on this issue your church is upstream on this issue your church is growing and you're you know becoming an growing and you're you know becoming an growing and you're you know becoming an are multi in a multi-ethnic multiracial are multi in a multi-ethnic multiracial are multi in a multi-ethnic multiracial community how are you know what are some community how are you know what are some community how are you know what are some of the things that you're doing to kind of the things that you're doing to kind of the things that you're doing to kind of see that take place and kind of of see that take place and kind of of see that take place and kind of ensure that takes place of your church ensure that takes place of your church ensure that takes place of your church yes so before I answer that question I yes so before I answer that question I yes so before I answer that question I want to ask you a question yeah want to ask you a question yeah want to ask you a question yeah definitely when you look at say definitely when you look at say definitely when you look at say professional sports or even let's just professional sports or even let's just professional sports or even let's just use college basketball the majority of

use college basketball the majority of use college basketball the majority of coaches and professional sports and coaches and professional sports and coaches and professional sports and let's just use football since I've let's just use football since I've let's just use football since I've played now NFL the majority of coaches played now NFL the majority of coaches played now NFL the majority of coaches are white the majority of coaches in are white the majority of coaches in are white the majority of coaches in college basketball or white how is it college basketball or white how is it college basketball or white how is it that their teams are diverse right and that their teams are diverse right and that their teams are diverse right and so from my experience in the NFL I've so from my experience in the NFL I've so from my experience in the NFL I've never seen a white coach go to a never seen a white coach go to a never seen a white coach go to a Hispanic basketball player on a Hispanic Hispanic basketball player on a Hispanic Hispanic basketball player on a Hispanic football player and go you know you're football player and go you know you're football player and go you know you're Hispanic I'm white Hispanic I'm white Hispanic I'm white so how do i coach you right or you know so how do i coach you right or you know so how do i coach you right or you know you know a black coat say to a white guy you know a black coat say to a white guy you know a black coat say to a white guy hey look you're a white guy from from hey look you're a white guy from from hey look you're a white guy from from Iowa how do I coach you right and here's Iowa how do I coach you right and here's Iowa how do I coach you right and here's why and sports you have a vision right why and sports you have a vision right why and sports you have a vision right that captivates everybody and motivates that captivates everybody and motivates that captivates everybody and motivates them to fulfill their role once you're them to fulfill their role once you're them to fulfill their role once you're captivated by a vision and once a role captivated by a vision and once a role captivated by a vision and once a role is clarified then you begin to come is clarified then you begin to come is clarified then you begin to come together mm-hmm like I couldn't tell the together mm-hmm like I couldn't tell the together mm-hmm like I couldn't tell the coach you know coach I don't like your coach you know coach I don't like your coach you know coach I don't like your plays mm-hmm but when we come to church plays mm-hmm but when we come to church plays mm-hmm but when we come to church shopping what do we say what kind of shopping what do we say what kind of shopping what do we say what kind of music I don't like the preacher I don't music I don't like the preacher I don't music I don't like the preacher I don't like this I don't like that we become like this I don't like that we become like this I don't like that we become consumers whereas on a professional consumers whereas on a professional consumers whereas on a professional football team if I told a coach hey I football team if I told a coach hey I football team if I told a coach hey I don't like your PlayBook he'd go okay go don't like your PlayBook he'd go okay go don't like your PlayBook he'd go okay go find another job yeah exactly exactly find another job yeah exactly exactly find another job yeah exactly exactly how greater is the gospel narrative that how greater is the gospel narrative that how greater is the gospel narrative that the great commandment and the Great the great commandment and the Great the great commandment and the Great Commission and by the way the Great Commission and by the way the Great Commission and by the way the Great Commission go make disciples of all Commission go make disciples of all Commission go make disciples of all ethnic or ethnic groups not just across ethnic or ethnic groups not just across ethnic or ethnic groups not just across the sea but across the street mm-hmm it

the sea but across the street mm-hmm it the sea but across the street mm-hmm it baffled me how my white friends would go baffled me how my white friends would go baffled me how my white friends would go on mission trips to Africa mm-hmm to on mission trips to Africa mm-hmm to on mission trips to Africa mm-hmm to talk to black folks but would not reach talk to black folks but would not reach talk to black folks but would not reach the lost black people across the street the lost black people across the street the lost black people across the street mm-hmm weird and as a non-christian I'm mm-hmm weird and as a non-christian I'm mm-hmm weird and as a non-christian I'm going why does it make sense it doesn't going why does it make sense it doesn't going why does it make sense it doesn't make sense but we've already done that make sense but we've already done that make sense but we've already done that or like why do you go to Mexico to build or like why do you go to Mexico to build or like why do you go to Mexico to build houses for Mexicans and Mexicans in houses for Mexicans and Mexicans in houses for Mexicans and Mexicans in America build houses for Americans right America build houses for Americans right America build houses for Americans right right it doesn't make sense no it right it doesn't make sense no it right it doesn't make sense no it doesn't and so we need the gospel to doesn't and so we need the gospel to doesn't and so we need the gospel to give us new lenses and and and so that's give us new lenses and and and so that's give us new lenses and and and so that's how I would answer your question is how I would answer your question is how I would answer your question is let's look at the culture right and then let's look at the culture right and then let's look at the culture right and then secondly I knew that for transformation secondly I knew that for transformation secondly I knew that for transformation Church to be diverse we needed to follow Church to be diverse we needed to follow Church to be diverse we needed to follow the pattern in a book of Acts oxygen 6x the pattern in a book of Acts oxygen 6x the pattern in a book of Acts oxygen 6x chapter 13 and you see a ethnically chapter 13 and you see a ethnically chapter 13 and you see a ethnically diverse leadership team so for leaders diverse leadership team so for leaders diverse leadership team so for leaders listening your leadership team is not listening your leadership team is not listening your leadership team is not going to be diverse if you don't live a going to be diverse if you don't live a going to be diverse if you don't live a multi-ethnic lifestyle right I can pick multi-ethnic lifestyle right I can pick multi-ethnic lifestyle right I can pick up the phone now and I can build a up the phone now and I can build a up the phone now and I can build a multi-ethnic team because I got friends multi-ethnic team because I got friends multi-ethnic team because I got friends who are Hispanic where the Puerto Rican who are Hispanic where the Puerto Rican who are Hispanic where the Puerto Rican or Guatemalan are from Spain or Guatemalan are from Spain or Guatemalan are from Spain I've got Asian friends Chinese Korean I've got Asian friends Chinese Korean I've got Asian friends Chinese Korean I've got Asian Indian friends I've got I've got Asian Indian friends I've got I've got Asian Indian friends I've got white white white friends I've got black friends mm-hmm I friends I've got black friends mm-hmm I friends I've got black friends mm-hmm I got even friends with mullets but that's got even friends with mullets but that's got even friends with mullets but that's a value to me because all people are a value to me because all people are a value to me because all people are made in the image of God and I find that made in the image of God and I find that made in the image of God and I find that my weaknesses are made into strengths my weaknesses are made into strengths my weaknesses are made into strengths and diversity now how are you keeping and diversity now how are you keeping and diversity now how are you keeping this vision white-hot at the church so this vision white-hot at the church so this vision white-hot at the church so obviously a part of what I appreciate obviously a part of what I appreciate obviously a part of what I appreciate your doing is let's let's ask a bigger your doing is let's let's ask a bigger your doing is let's let's ask a bigger question let's let's keep this in front question let's let's keep this in front question let's let's keep this in front of folks

of folks of folks what are you practically doing at what are you practically doing at what are you practically doing at transformation to keep this in front of transformation to keep this in front of transformation to keep this in front of people obviously you know you're you people obviously you know you're you people obviously you know you're you know preaching on it it's a part of what know preaching on it it's a part of what know preaching on it it's a part of what you do you are it's who you you know you do you are it's who you you know you do you are it's who you you know live but how are you doing that yeah so live but how are you doing that yeah so live but how are you doing that yeah so so our vision is the Great Commandment so our vision is the Great Commandment so our vision is the Great Commandment Great Commission Durham gray does not Great Commission Durham gray does not Great Commission Durham gray does not have a vision nor do I have a church I'm have a vision nor do I have a church I'm have a vision nor do I have a church I'm not starting the movement Jesus already not starting the movement Jesus already not starting the movement Jesus already did that hmm so we just keep the Great did that hmm so we just keep the Great did that hmm so we just keep the Great Commandment before all of our folks I Commandment before all of our folks I Commandment before all of our folks I mean Jesus says from the law to the mean Jesus says from the law to the mean Jesus says from the law to the prophets this is what it's about prophets this is what it's about prophets this is what it's about loving God love your neighbor as you loving God love your neighbor as you loving God love your neighbor as you love yourself love yourself love yourself we call that upward inward outward we call that upward inward outward we call that upward inward outward mmm-hmm and so the outward peace is the mmm-hmm and so the outward peace is the mmm-hmm and so the outward peace is the Great Commission and last we checked my Great Commission and last we checked my Great Commission and last we checked my neighbors are going to be different neighbors are going to be different neighbors are going to be different ethnicities and different ages so the ethnicities and different ages so the ethnicities and different ages so the mission of Jesus shapes how we go and mission of Jesus shapes how we go and mission of Jesus shapes how we go and love humanity so our vision restores love humanity so our vision restores love humanity so our vision restores human beings to their original intent human beings to their original intent human beings to their original intent so evangelism worship and mission are so evangelism worship and mission are so evangelism worship and mission are all in one a transformation church all in one a transformation church all in one a transformation church because of the Great Commandment Great because of the Great Commandment Great because of the Great Commandment Great Commission so the way we say it is we're Commission so the way we say it is we're Commission so the way we say it is we're a multi-ethnic multi-generational a multi-ethnic multi-generational a multi-ethnic multi-generational mission-shaped community that loves God mission-shaped community that loves God mission-shaped community that loves God completely loves ourselves correctly completely loves ourselves correctly completely loves ourselves correctly loves our neighbors compassionately loves our neighbors compassionately loves our neighbors compassionately so it's this continuous flywheel so we so it's this continuous flywheel so we so it's this continuous flywheel so we preach it often mm-hmm it's an preach it often mm-hmm it's an preach it often mm-hmm it's an everything that we do it's the very air everything that we do it's the very air everything that we do it's the very air that we breathe and so from new members that we breathe and so from new members that we breathe and so from new members classes to newcomers to every sermon at classes to newcomers to every sermon at classes to newcomers to every sermon at the end of every service for five years the end of every service for five years the end of every service for five years together in a congregation and we we use

together in a congregation and we we use together in a congregation and we we use our hands and our words we say upward our hands and our words we say upward our hands and our words we say upward God completely inward love ourselves God completely inward love ourselves God completely inward love ourselves correctly outward to love our neighbors correctly outward to love our neighbors correctly outward to love our neighbors compassionately I pointed Emily pointed compassionately I pointed Emily pointed compassionately I pointed Emily pointed me then I say Transformers roll out mmm me then I say Transformers roll out mmm me then I say Transformers roll out mmm because the Sunday morning gathering is because the Sunday morning gathering is because the Sunday morning gathering is just a huddle right just a huddle right just a huddle right life happens outside of the gathering life happens outside of the gathering life happens outside of the gathering the huddle is equipping time and I the huddle is equipping time and I the huddle is equipping time and I believe the same gospel that equips the believe the same gospel that equips the believe the same gospel that equips the believer is the same gospel that reaches believer is the same gospel that reaches believer is the same gospel that reaches the lost hmm so people say are you the lost hmm so people say are you the lost hmm so people say are you seeker sensitive I say we are God since seeker sensitive I say we are God since seeker sensitive I say we are God since when he is exalted people will want him when he is exalted people will want him when he is exalted people will want him and those who have him will grow in him and those who have him will grow in him and those who have him will grow in him and want and more all right very good and want and more all right very good and want and more all right very good okay I'm gonna play the devil's advocate okay I'm gonna play the devil's advocate okay I'm gonna play the devil's advocate and I use that word and I use that word and I use that word you know pointedly that's on purpose you know pointedly that's on purpose you know pointedly that's on purpose let's say there's a church leader that's let's say there's a church leader that's let's say there's a church leader that's listening in that's saying listen listening in that's saying listen listening in that's saying listen Derwin okay I understand this what Derwin okay I understand this what Derwin okay I understand this what you're talking about though at the end you're talking about though at the end you're talking about though at the end of the day I just want to preach the of the day I just want to preach the of the day I just want to preach the gospel why do I need to be involved why gospel why do I need to be involved why gospel why do I need to be involved why why worry about this issue again that's why worry about this issue again that's why worry about this issue again that's not me saying that yeah there's there not me saying that yeah there's there not me saying that yeah there's there are church leaders that think that are church leaders that think that are church leaders that think that they're like this is just it's like the they're like this is just it's like the they're like this is just it's like the social justice crowd gosh why am i social justice crowd gosh why am i social justice crowd gosh why am i worried about about that can't I just worried about about that can't I just worried about about that can't I just get up and preach the word every week get up and preach the word every week get up and preach the word every week yes so the first thing is I would say is yes so the first thing is I would say is yes so the first thing is I would say is we've baptized almost 400 people this we've baptized almost 400 people this we've baptized almost 400 people this year praise God nearly 900 have come to year praise God nearly 900 have come to year praise God nearly 900 have come to faith um we're growing like crazy so faith um we're growing like crazy so faith um we're growing like crazy so what I would say is this your golf was what I would say is this your golf was what I would say is this your golf was too small hmm you think the gospel even

too small hmm you think the gospel even too small hmm you think the gospel even Jesus you're forgiven you go to heaven Jesus you're forgiven you go to heaven Jesus you're forgiven you go to heaven you have a wrong understanding so let's you have a wrong understanding so let's you have a wrong understanding so let's let's start here with the word let's start here with the word let's start here with the word evangeline the etymology of the word evangeline the etymology of the word evangeline the etymology of the word good news was actually used first by good news was actually used first by good news was actually used first by world empires and so in the first world empires and so in the first world empires and so in the first century Jewish context when a new century Jewish context when a new century Jewish context when a new emperor like Nero was put into place emperor like Nero was put into place emperor like Nero was put into place Nero and his government would send out Nero and his government would send out Nero and his government would send out apostles or messengers throughout the apostles or messengers throughout the apostles or messengers throughout the Roman Empire to herald good news mmm Roman Empire to herald good news mmm Roman Empire to herald good news mmm gospel and it would go this way hmm gospel and it would go this way hmm gospel and it would go this way hmm everyone listen I have good news I have everyone listen I have good news I have everyone listen I have good news I have gospel hmm there is a new king his name gospel hmm there is a new king his name gospel hmm there is a new king his name is Nero bow your knee to him and confess is Nero bow your knee to him and confess is Nero bow your knee to him and confess him as Lord and you will have eternal him as Lord and you will have eternal him as Lord and you will have eternal prosperity and peace hmm Jesus's Church prosperity and peace hmm Jesus's Church prosperity and peace hmm Jesus's Church said no no no we have the true good news said no no no we have the true good news said no no no we have the true good news there is a new king and his name is there is a new king and his name is there is a new king and his name is Jesus and through his perfect life its Jesus and through his perfect life its Jesus and through his perfect life its death on the cross in our place his death on the cross in our place his death on the cross in our place his resurrection from the dead and his resurrection from the dead and his resurrection from the dead and his ascension to the right hand of the ascension to the right hand of the ascension to the right hand of the Father to be our high priest and Father to be our high priest and Father to be our high priest and mediator to the sinning of the Spirit mediator to the sinning of the Spirit mediator to the sinning of the Spirit our King is inviting people to his our King is inviting people to his our King is inviting people to his kingdom by grace so that they can kingdom by grace so that they can kingdom by grace so that they can display an image forth his glory display an image forth his glory display an image forth his glory throughout the world and draw others throughout the world and draw others throughout the world and draw others into his kingdom hmm so so what we have into his kingdom hmm so so what we have into his kingdom hmm so so what we have here is we have people who are sotiria here is we have people who are sotiria here is we have people who are sotiria logically driven and most don't even do

logically driven and most don't even do logically driven and most don't even do a good job with that we hardly ever talk a good job with that we hardly ever talk a good job with that we hardly ever talk about Redemption and what it means mmm about Redemption and what it means mmm about Redemption and what it means mmm justification reconciliation justification reconciliation justification reconciliation propitiation expiation regeneration propitiation expiation regeneration propitiation expiation regeneration mm-hmm but then we have ecclesiology mm-hmm but then we have ecclesiology mm-hmm but then we have ecclesiology individual salvation only exists so God individual salvation only exists so God individual salvation only exists so God the Father can have a family mm-hmm the Father can have a family mm-hmm the Father can have a family mm-hmm individual salvation only exists so God individual salvation only exists so God individual salvation only exists so God the Father can give his son a bride mmm the Father can give his son a bride mmm the Father can give his son a bride mmm individual salvation individual salvation individual salvation only exists so the father's spirit can only exists so the father's spirit can only exists so the father's spirit can have a temple mmm not made with brick or have a temple mmm not made with brick or have a temple mmm not made with brick or mortar mm-hmm but made out of human mortar mm-hmm but made out of human mortar mm-hmm but made out of human beings who are blood bought mmm so you beings who are blood bought mmm so you beings who are blood bought mmm so you have a family a bride and a temple have a family a bride and a temple have a family a bride and a temple mm-hmm and that family that bride that mm-hmm and that family that bride that mm-hmm and that family that bride that temple is a multi-ethnic family who now temple is a multi-ethnic family who now temple is a multi-ethnic family who now has the vocation to image for the glory has the vocation to image for the glory has the vocation to image for the glory of God of God of God that's a different story right it's it's that's a different story right it's it's that's a different story right it's it's it's far more richer and more beautiful it's far more richer and more beautiful it's far more richer and more beautiful than hey you know if you were to die than hey you know if you were to die than hey you know if you were to die tonight well who's gonna say I want to tonight well who's gonna say I want to tonight well who's gonna say I want to go to hell right exactly let me pray go to hell right exactly let me pray go to hell right exactly let me pray this prayer whereas for a first-century this prayer whereas for a first-century this prayer whereas for a first-century Jewish perp per person it was never Jewish perp per person it was never Jewish perp per person it was never about going to heaven when you die it about going to heaven when you die it about going to heaven when you die it was about the Messiah ruling and was about the Messiah ruling and was about the Messiah ruling and reigning and God's people ruling and reigning and God's people ruling and reigning and God's people ruling and reigning yes to be absent from the body reigning yes to be absent from the body reigning yes to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord but is to be present with the Lord but is to be present with the Lord but there's gonna be a new heavens and a new there's gonna be a new heavens and a new there's gonna be a new heavens and a new earth with resurrected bodies and until earth with resurrected bodies and until earth with resurrected bodies and until that time comes we the church are to be that time comes we the church are to be that time comes we the church are to be a foretaste an appetizer to that great

a foretaste an appetizer to that great a foretaste an appetizer to that great banquet dinner we're gonna have banquet dinner we're gonna have banquet dinner we're gonna have absolutely well absolutely well absolutely well has been this has been a great has been this has been a great has been this has been a great conversation today Durrell and I really conversation today Durrell and I really conversation today Durrell and I really appreciate your you know you've appreciate your you know you've appreciate your you know you've obviously written a book on this the obviously written a book on this the obviously written a book on this the High Definition leader that I can you High Definition leader that I can you High Definition leader that I can you tell us a little bit about that but just tell us a little bit about that but just tell us a little bit about that but just as we're kind of wrapping up the episode as we're kind of wrapping up the episode as we're kind of wrapping up the episode yeah so the high definition leader yeah so the high definition leader yeah so the high definition leader building multi-ethnic churches in a building multi-ethnic churches in a building multi-ethnic churches in a multi-ethnic world was birth out of multi-ethnic world was birth out of multi-ethnic world was birth out of crisis is I was getting phone calls how crisis is I was getting phone calls how crisis is I was getting phone calls how do you do what what you're doing I know do you do what what you're doing I know do you do what what you're doing I know it's I know it's God's heart but I don't it's I know it's God's heart but I don't it's I know it's God's heart but I don't know how so I couldn't answer know how so I couldn't answer know how so I couldn't answer everybody's question and I couldn't meet everybody's question and I couldn't meet everybody's question and I couldn't meet with everybody so I wrote the book in a with everybody so I wrote the book in a with everybody so I wrote the book in a who I wrote it in seven weeks in the who I wrote it in seven weeks in the who I wrote it in seven weeks in the midst of my doctrine amiss of a capital midst of my doctrine amiss of a capital midst of my doctrine amiss of a capital campaign in the midst of moving our campaign in the midst of moving our campaign in the midst of moving our facilities to our new facilities now facilities to our new facilities now facilities to our new facilities now God's grace carried me this book is not God's grace carried me this book is not God's grace carried me this book is not just for leaders but if we as pastors just for leaders but if we as pastors just for leaders but if we as pastors can get this gospel ethos in us mm-hmm can get this gospel ethos in us mm-hmm can get this gospel ethos in us mm-hmm oh my gosh oh my gosh oh my gosh it could change so much but but here's it could change so much but but here's it could change so much but but here's our problem the rich and I may get in our problem the rich and I may get in our problem the rich and I may get in trouble with this is our problem is this trouble with this is our problem is this trouble with this is our problem is this is our even Jellicle subculture books is our even Jellicle subculture books is our even Jellicle subculture books conferences rewards a metric that isn't conferences rewards a metric that isn't conferences rewards a metric that isn't necessarily the best one meaning budgets necessarily the best one meaning budgets necessarily the best one meaning budgets buildings and butts mmm that's good Mike buildings and butts mmm that's good Mike buildings and butts mmm that's good Mike I want a magazine to say who are the top I want a magazine to say who are the top I want a magazine to say who are the top 100 most caring churches where pastors 100 most caring churches where pastors 100 most caring churches where pastors actually talk to people in their

actually talk to people in their actually talk to people in their congregation and give pastoral care congregation and give pastoral care congregation and give pastoral care right like our metrics are easy there right like our metrics are easy there right like our metrics are easy there there are superfluous mmm it's like look there are superfluous mmm it's like look there are superfluous mmm it's like look weeds grow fast so what I'm calling for weeds grow fast so what I'm calling for weeds grow fast so what I'm calling for is a new type of Reformation and I get is a new type of Reformation and I get is a new type of Reformation and I get it we've grown fast and I'm thankful for it we've grown fast and I'm thankful for it we've grown fast and I'm thankful for it mm-hmm but until there stops being it mm-hmm but until there stops being it mm-hmm but until there stops being rewards for an old narrative hmm and rewards for an old narrative hmm and rewards for an old narrative hmm and you've heard this said before well gets you've heard this said before well gets you've heard this said before well gets applauded gets done mmm sternal feet and applauded gets done mmm sternal feet and applauded gets done mmm sternal feet and we need a new generation of leaders to we need a new generation of leaders to we need a new generation of leaders to say hell no we done can't take it as fun say hell no we done can't take it as fun say hell no we done can't take it as fun with this mm-hmm with this mm-hmm with this mm-hmm because only so few because only so few because only so few can be the megachurch guy mm-hmm only so can be the megachurch guy mm-hmm only so can be the megachurch guy mm-hmm only so few but all of us can be faithful to the few but all of us can be faithful to the few but all of us can be faithful to the gospel call to present our world with a gospel call to present our world with a gospel call to present our world with a Jesus who's not a self-help coach mmm Jesus who's not a self-help coach mmm Jesus who's not a self-help coach mmm like Jesus is not at the high he's not like Jesus is not at the high he's not like Jesus is not at the high he's not our high priest at the right hand of the our high priest at the right hand of the our high priest at the right hand of the Father to go hey how can I help you it's Father to go hey how can I help you it's Father to go hey how can I help you it's your suburban life today right right you your suburban life today right right you your suburban life today right right you know what what clever sermons can we know what what clever sermons can we know what what clever sermons can we develop on a topic right you know I develop on a topic right you know I develop on a topic right you know I think our Jesus is worth more than that think our Jesus is worth more than that think our Jesus is worth more than that and so I'm looking for the few that want and so I'm looking for the few that want and so I'm looking for the few that want to be a part of that I've got a to be a part of that I've got a to be a part of that I've got a roundtable that we're gonna do move roundtable that we're gonna do move roundtable that we're gonna do move April 12th through the 13th where we get April 12th through the 13th where we get April 12th through the 13th where we get about 20 liters we want it small where I about 20 liters we want it small where I about 20 liters we want it small where I bring them in for two days we feed them

bring them in for two days we feed them bring them in for two days we feed them we love on them we serve them mm-hmm and we love on them we serve them mm-hmm and we love on them we serve them mm-hmm and we teach them how to do a multi-ethnic we teach them how to do a multi-ethnic we teach them how to do a multi-ethnic church and at the end of it I wash their church and at the end of it I wash their church and at the end of it I wash their feet mmm we we washed her feet to say feet mmm we we washed her feet to say feet mmm we we washed her feet to say this is what a servant leader look look this is what a servant leader look look this is what a servant leader look look looks like and we're laying hands on you looks like and we're laying hands on you looks like and we're laying hands on you to bless you because we need a new kind to bless you because we need a new kind to bless you because we need a new kind of Reformation welder I appreciate you of Reformation welder I appreciate you of Reformation welder I appreciate you being on the show today if people want being on the show today if people want being on the show today if people want to get in touch with you or with the to get in touch with you or with the to get in touch with you or with the church what's the best way they can do church what's the best way they can do church what's the best way they can do that transformation Church dot T C that transformation Church dot T C that transformation Church dot T C transformation Church dot T C and or my transformation Church dot T C and or my transformation Church dot T C and or my twitter at Derwin l gray dot just at twitter at Derwin l gray dot just at twitter at Derwin l gray dot just at Durham on L gray thank you so much I Durham on L gray thank you so much I Durham on L gray thank you so much I really appreciate it be on the shift a really appreciate it be on the shift a really appreciate it be on the shift a you've given us tons to think about and you've given us tons to think about and you've given us tons to think about and I appreciate you taking time out to be I appreciate you taking time out to be I appreciate you taking time out to be with us thanks for having me man with us thanks for having me man with us thanks for having me man thank you for tuning in to this week's thank you for tuning in to this week's thank you for tuning in to this week's unsung re podcast don't be shy we'd love unsung re podcast don't be shy we'd love unsung re podcast don't be shy we'd love to connect check out uncie Maneri inbox to connect check out uncie Maneri inbox to connect check out uncie Maneri inbox you can sign up at unsummon airy calm you can sign up at unsummon airy calm you can sign up at unsummon airy calm and we'll send you helpful training and we'll send you helpful training and we'll send you helpful training resources every week plus you'll gain resources every week plus you'll gain resources every week plus you'll gain immediate access to our exclusive immediate access to our exclusive immediate access to our exclusive members area with tons of resources you members area with tons of resources you members area with tons of resources you can use connect with rich on twitter at can use connect with rich on twitter at can use connect with rich on twitter at rich birch or through email rich at rich birch or through email rich at rich birch or through email rich at unsummon Ericom don't forget to check unsummon Ericom don't forget to check unsummon Ericom don't forget to check out the show notes for this episode at out the show notes for this episode at out the show notes for this episode at unset Minari calm unset Minari calm unset Minari calm it includes links to what we talked it includes links to what we talked it includes links to what we talked about today and more leave a comment about today and more leave a comment about today and more leave a comment we'd love to hear from you did you enjoy we'd love to hear from you did you enjoy we'd love to hear from you did you enjoy today's episode drop by iTunes and leave today's episode drop by iTunes and leave today's episode drop by iTunes and leave a review thanks again for tuning in to a review thanks again for tuning in to a review thanks again for tuning in to this week's unsung nari podcast join us this week's unsung nari podcast join us this week's unsung nari podcast join us next week when we'll learn more stuff we next week when we'll learn more stuff we next week when we'll learn more stuff we wish they taught in seminary