Mike Bellanti on Turning Around a Stuck Church

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this week's on seminary podcast what this week's on seminary podcast what this week's on seminary podcast what everybody welcome to the on seminary everybody welcome to the on seminary everybody welcome to the on seminary podcast so glad that you decided to podcast so glad that you decided to podcast so glad that you decided to spend some time with us today we hope spend some time with us today we hope spend some time with us today we hope you're having a great week at your you're having a great week at your you're having a great week at your church as you get ready for a weekend of church as you get ready for a weekend of church as you get ready for a weekend of ministry we're going to reward you today ministry we're going to reward you today ministry we're going to reward you today with an incredible interview I'm super with an incredible interview I'm super with an incredible interview I'm super excited about this looking forward been excited about this looking forward been excited about this looking forward been looking forward to this for a while looking forward to this for a while looking forward to this for a while Mike pelant a he is the lead pastor at Mike pelant a he is the lead pastor at Mike pelant a he is the lead pastor at Northbrook Church in outside of Northbrook Church in outside of Northbrook Church in outside of Milwaukee in Wisconsin you know a place Milwaukee in Wisconsin you know a place Milwaukee in Wisconsin you know a place that lots of people love to move to I that lots of people love to move to I that lots of people love to move to I could say that as you know somebody could say that as you know somebody could say that as you know somebody that's lived in New Jersey from Canada that's lived in New Jersey from Canada that's lived in New Jersey from Canada so I know that you know what that could so I know that you know what that could so I know that you know what that could feel like so Mike's been there since feel like so Mike's been there since feel like so Mike's been there since 2009 and really got sorts of amazing 2009 and really got sorts of amazing 2009 and really got sorts of amazing things over this last seven eight years things over this last seven eight years things over this last seven eight years and I'm looking for to hearing more and I'm looking for to hearing more and I'm looking for to hearing more about that Mike welcome to the show about that Mike welcome to the show about that Mike welcome to the show awesome things are having me appreciate awesome things are having me appreciate awesome things are having me appreciate it rich thanks it's great why don't you it rich thanks it's great why don't you it rich thanks it's great why don't you tell us a little bit about Northbrook tell us a little bit about Northbrook tell us a little bit about Northbrook give us the if people were to come this give us the if people were to come this give us the if people were to come this weekend what would they experience give weekend what would they experience give weekend what would they experience give us a sense of the northbrook's touring us a sense of the northbrook's touring us a sense of the northbrook's touring yeah so so Northbrook is a great Church yeah so so Northbrook is a great Church yeah so so Northbrook is a great Church we're nondenominational we're nondenominational we're nondenominational located about 30 miles outside Milwaukee located about 30 miles outside Milwaukee located about 30 miles outside Milwaukee so it actually is a pretty rural area it so it actually is a pretty rural area it so it actually is a pretty rural area it changes from urban to rural real quick changes from urban to rural real quick changes from urban to rural real quick where we are and a lot of the people where we are and a lot of the people where we are and a lot of the people that live there are more people that are that live there are more people that are that live there are more people that are middle to upper-class that work in the middle to upper-class that work in the middle to upper-class that work in the city but don't want to live in the city

city but don't want to live in the city city but don't want to live in the city and they want more property and so they and they want more property and so they and they want more property and so they move out there right and so our move out there right and so our move out there right and so our congregation is well it's pretty congregation is well it's pretty congregation is well it's pretty multi-generational we're reaching a lot multi-generational we're reaching a lot multi-generational we're reaching a lot of families with kids still in the home of families with kids still in the home of families with kids still in the home that kind of seems to be the newest that kind of seems to be the newest that kind of seems to be the newest emerging group we're reaching I've been emerging group we're reaching I've been emerging group we're reaching I've been there eight years and when I came it was there eight years and when I came it was there eight years and when I came it was a church that it was a little stuck so a church that it was a little stuck so a church that it was a little stuck so Northbrook was a little bit of a Northbrook was a little bit of a Northbrook was a little bit of a turnaround story they had an incredible turnaround story they had an incredible turnaround story they had an incredible history they were planted by a church history they were planted by a church history they were planted by a church called Elm Brook and you're familiar called Elm Brook and you're familiar called Elm Brook and you're familiar with this with Bristow Casey they with this with Bristow Casey they with this with Bristow Casey they started Northbrook and it had an started Northbrook and it had an started Northbrook and it had an incredible history grew really fast and incredible history grew really fast and incredible history grew really fast and so over the course of about 30 so over the course of about 30 so over the course of about 30 years went from 12 people to over a years went from 12 people to over a years went from 12 people to over a thousand it's just a great success thousand it's just a great success thousand it's just a great success degree and then you know sometimes the degree and then you know sometimes the degree and then you know sometimes the real start to come off the bus a little real start to come off the bus a little real start to come off the bus a little bit impacted left we do something else bit impacted left we do something else bit impacted left we do something else from inner turmoil and Northbrook from inner turmoil and Northbrook from inner turmoil and Northbrook started to decline and by the time I got started to decline and by the time I got started to decline and by the time I got there they'd been without a pastor for there they'd been without a pastor for there they'd been without a pastor for over a year over a year over a year mmm for 600 people had left finances mmm for 600 people had left finances mmm for 600 people had left finances with trouble morale on staff was really with trouble morale on staff was really with trouble morale on staff was really low and so I knew it was a turnaround low and so I knew it was a turnaround low and so I knew it was a turnaround project when they first invited me to project when they first invited me to project when they first invited me to come up said no way once before and I'm come up said no way once before and I'm come up said no way once before and I'm like I'm not doing that again because like I'm not doing that again because like I'm not doing that again because you have the gift of discernment and you you have the gift of discernment and you you have the gift of discernment and you could see where this was going and I was could see where this was going and I was could see where this was going and I was living in Colorado Springs Colorado living in Colorado Springs Colorado living in Colorado Springs Colorado what's going on Colorado Springs to what's going on Colorado Springs to what's going on Colorado Springs to Milwaukee after I tell me anything but Milwaukee after I tell me anything but Milwaukee after I tell me anything but my wife and I went to visit just felt my wife and I went to visit just felt my wife and I went to visit just felt really deeply that we're supposed to

really deeply that we're supposed to really deeply that we're supposed to come here really did so I've just been a come here really did so I've just been a come here really did so I've just been a great story of of change of transition great story of of change of transition great story of of change of transition of healing and we're just really excited of healing and we're just really excited of healing and we're just really excited to be there we love it we love it here to be there we love it we love it here to be there we love it we love it here that's really cool so give us a sense I that's really cool so give us a sense I that's really cool so give us a sense I realize it's not all about numbers not realize it's not all about numbers not realize it's not all about numbers not all about you know Sunday morning all about you know Sunday morning all about you know Sunday morning attendance but that is at one indicator attendance but that is at one indicator attendance but that is at one indicator of kind of what's happened you know from of kind of what's happened you know from of kind of what's happened you know from from there kind of low watermark and from there kind of low watermark and from there kind of low watermark and then what's happened over these years then what's happened over these years then what's happened over these years you know over the last say 17 years yeah you know over the last say 17 years yeah you know over the last say 17 years yeah so when I came northbrook was around 900 so when I came northbrook was around 900 so when I came northbrook was around 900 to 1,000 not a good weekend yeah and not to 1,000 not a good weekend yeah and not to 1,000 not a good weekend yeah and not we're probably just over 2,000 that's we're probably just over 2,000 that's we're probably just over 2,000 that's amazing I think we in the last seven amazing I think we in the last seven amazing I think we in the last seven years have doubled essentially that's years have doubled essentially that's years have doubled essentially that's amazing that's incredible that's amazing amazing that's incredible that's amazing amazing that's incredible that's amazing all of us actually all of us actually all of us actually yes that's amazing well wait when um you yes that's amazing well wait when um you yes that's amazing well wait when um you know when you would describe you know I know when you would describe you know I know when you would describe you know I love to pick that apart a little bit you love to pick that apart a little bit you love to pick that apart a little bit you know talk about you know what it was know talk about you know what it was know talk about you know what it was that you've really seen you know what that you've really seen you know what that you've really seen you know what are some of those things that you've are some of those things that you've are some of those things that you've really had to kind of break down or you really had to kind of break down or you really had to kind of break down or you know pull apart to really help see that know pull apart to really help see that know pull apart to really help see that turnaround to take place what was maybe turnaround to take place what was maybe turnaround to take place what was maybe not working that now you know you've not working that now you know you've not working that now you know you've tried that you had to work harder on tried that you had to work harder on tried that you had to work harder on yeah so you know Northbrook was very yeah so you know Northbrook was very yeah so you know Northbrook was very siloed every man for himself every man siloed every man for himself every man siloed every man for himself every man and woman for himself and woman for himself and woman for himself and that was evident both on the staff and that was evident both on the staff and that was evident both on the staff which then translated into the which then translated into the which then translated into the congregation but and you know you I congregation but and you know you I congregation but and you know you I walked into Northbrook and I had no idea

walked into Northbrook and I had no idea walked into Northbrook and I had no idea what the church was about what it valued what the church was about what it valued what the church was about what it valued it basically valued survival is what I it basically valued survival is what I it basically valued survival is what I read and that's that's a hard thing to read and that's that's a hard thing to read and that's that's a hard thing to walk into because I am NOT a type-a Dee walk into because I am NOT a type-a Dee walk into because I am NOT a type-a Dee kind of leader I don't score dominant kind of leader I don't score dominant kind of leader I don't score dominant any of those personality profiles and so any of those personality profiles and so any of those personality profiles and so and it really needed some pretty radical and it really needed some pretty radical and it really needed some pretty radical change try to get a little uncomfortable change try to get a little uncomfortable change try to get a little uncomfortable both with myself and with the staff and both with myself and with the staff and both with myself and with the staff and I'll never forget the staff the first I'll never forget the staff the first I'll never forget the staff the first couple of staff meetings I had i sat couple of staff meetings I had i sat couple of staff meetings I had i sat with the team and I would ask questions with the team and I would ask questions with the team and I would ask questions and everyone just stared at me no one and everyone just stared at me no one and everyone just stared at me no one would even no one would even talked oh would even no one would even talked oh would even no one would even talked oh my goodness Wow so it was it was very my goodness Wow so it was it was very my goodness Wow so it was it was very challenging there were there were some challenging there were there were some challenging there were there were some wounds there could be fair because they wounds there could be fair because they wounds there could be fair because they are many of them are still with me are many of them are still with me are many of them are still with me incredible people incredible leaders incredible people incredible leaders incredible people incredible leaders that had been just lost their voice and that had been just lost their voice and that had been just lost their voice and so my job was to give them their voice so my job was to give them their voice so my job was to give them their voice back right and so instead of making a back right and so instead of making a back right and so instead of making a bunch of radical sweeping changes and bunch of radical sweeping changes and bunch of radical sweeping changes and making a bunch of decisions my first making a bunch of decisions my first making a bunch of decisions my first leadership decision was to bring healing leadership decision was to bring healing leadership decision was to bring healing and cohesiveness to the team and so and cohesiveness to the team and so and cohesiveness to the team and so that's what I spent a year doing well that's what I spent a year doing well that's what I spent a year doing well giving them a voice helping them just to giving them a voice helping them just to giving them a voice helping them just to talk helping them realize they are smart talk helping them realize they are smart talk helping them realize they are smart they have an opinion right and their they have an opinion right and their they have an opinion right and their opinion is valuable to me right very opinion is valuable to me right very opinion is valuable to me right very cool there's a lot of work you know my cool there's a lot of work you know my cool there's a lot of work you know my style of leadership which is highly style of leadership which is highly style of leadership which is highly collaborative mm-hmm takes a lot longer collaborative mm-hmm takes a lot longer collaborative mm-hmm takes a lot longer to get stuff done right yeah it'd be to get stuff done right yeah it'd be to get stuff done right yeah it'd be better just to tell people or faster not

better just to tell people or faster not better just to tell people or faster not better but it's faster to just say go do better but it's faster to just say go do better but it's faster to just say go do that as opposed to saying hey let's work that as opposed to saying hey let's work that as opposed to saying hey let's work together and find a you know a better together and find a you know a better together and find a you know a better path together but what I've discovered path together but what I've discovered path together but what I've discovered is the buy-in is undescribable compared is the buy-in is undescribable compared is the buy-in is undescribable compared to just dictating what I want done to just dictating what I want done to just dictating what I want done that's amazing why don't we pick that that's amazing why don't we pick that that's amazing why don't we pick that apart a little bit so um what was it I apart a little bit so um what was it I apart a little bit so um what was it I love that even that anecdotal oh my love that even that anecdotal oh my love that even that anecdotal oh my goodness I look around no one's talking goodness I look around no one's talking goodness I look around no one's talking I that so many of us have been in those I that so many of us have been in those I that so many of us have been in those meetings where like the longer and a lot meetings where like the longer and a lot meetings where like the longer and a lot of times I feel like though of times I feel like though of times I feel like though that happens because the leaders have that happens because the leaders have that happens because the leaders have trained that into people they've said trained that into people they've said trained that into people they've said I'm going to come in your job is just to I'm going to come in your job is just to I'm going to come in your job is just to listen and take notes as opposed to listen and take notes as opposed to listen and take notes as opposed to let's work together how did you turn let's work together how did you turn let's work together how did you turn that from a you know a just hurt you'll that from a you know a just hurt you'll that from a you know a just hurt you'll come and listen to like a collaborative come and listen to like a collaborative come and listen to like a collaborative environment what were some of the environment what were some of the environment what were some of the practical steps you took to to help practical steps you took to to help practical steps you took to to help encourage collaboration yes there's a encourage collaboration yes there's a encourage collaboration yes there's a couple of things that I did that I think couple of things that I did that I think couple of things that I did that I think we're simple and practical and make a we're simple and practical and make a we're simple and practical and make a lot of sense when you think about it the lot of sense when you think about it the lot of sense when you think about it the first thing I did was I would go into a first thing I did was I would go into a first thing I did was I would go into a meeting and I would ask questions and meeting and I would ask questions and meeting and I would ask questions and call out people specifically I'd ask a call out people specifically I'd ask a call out people specifically I'd ask a question I'd say hey Bob what do you question I'd say hey Bob what do you question I'd say hey Bob what do you think about that right or Ingrid what do think about that right or Ingrid what do think about that right or Ingrid what do you what do you think about that Dean you what do you think about that Dean you what do you think about that Dean what do you think about that and allow what do you think about that and allow what do you think about that and allow them to speak and there was a big them to speak and there was a big them to speak and there was a big turning point there was a disagreement turning point there was a disagreement turning point there was a disagreement on some things hmm and I had a on some things hmm and I had a on some things hmm and I had a disagreement with a staff member about disagreement with a staff member about disagreement with a staff member about something and we walked out of the something and we walked out of the something and we walked out of the meeting and there was some tension and I meeting and there was some tension and I meeting and there was some tension and I called them later and I said hey you called them later and I said hey you called them later and I said hey you know we disagree let's talk about that I

know we disagree let's talk about that I know we disagree let's talk about that I honor your opinion and I respect it and honor your opinion and I respect it and honor your opinion and I respect it and I might be wrong in this let's talk I might be wrong in this let's talk I might be wrong in this let's talk about it and they came back to me later about it and they came back to me later about it and they came back to me later and they said you know Mike that changed and they said you know Mike that changed and they said you know Mike that changed everything because for the first time I everything because for the first time I everything because for the first time I felt safe whoa and so just giving them a felt safe whoa and so just giving them a felt safe whoa and so just giving them a voice again and as I did that now I voice again and as I did that now I voice again and as I did that now I can't get him to stop talking which is can't get him to stop talking which is can't get him to stop talking which is what I want yes right I've got what I want yes right I've got what I want yes right I've got incredibly smart incredibly talented incredibly smart incredibly talented incredibly smart incredibly talented leaders the second thing that I did was leaders the second thing that I did was leaders the second thing that I did was we knew we needed to read revision eyes we knew we needed to read revision eyes we knew we needed to read revision eyes the whole church mom there was we had a the whole church mom there was we had a the whole church mom there was we had a wake-up call so some of our team got wake-up call so some of our team got wake-up call so some of our team got together and there was a lot of print together and there was a lot of print together and there was a lot of print material in our church and so we took material in our church and so we took material in our church and so we took all the print material and we put it up all the print material and we put it up all the print material and we put it up on the wall we taped it and we sat back on the wall we taped it and we sat back on the wall we taped it and we sat back and we thought this looks like 12 and we thought this looks like 12 and we thought this looks like 12 different churches right oh man nobody different churches right oh man nobody different churches right oh man nobody knows what a campus staff didn't know knows what a campus staff didn't know knows what a campus staff didn't know that they we were doing that or doing that they we were doing that or doing that they we were doing that or doing that like what is and so we thought this that like what is and so we thought this that like what is and so we thought this has to change and so we took all of our has to change and so we took all of our has to change and so we took all of our core leaders and when I say core leaders core leaders and when I say core leaders core leaders and when I say core leaders all of our pastors and all of our elders all of our pastors and all of our elders all of our pastors and all of our elders learning an elder led church by learning an elder led church by learning an elder led church by political definition I suppose and we political definition I suppose and we political definition I suppose and we spent one year together every other week spent one year together every other week spent one year together every other week 6:00 a.m. only we would all 6:00 a.m. only we would all 6:00 a.m. only we would all and we just prayed talks argued cried and we just prayed talks argued cried and we just prayed talks argued cried laughed what does God want this church laughed what does God want this church laughed what does God want this church to be and do mom to be and do mom to be and do mom he said the whole year doing that and it he said the whole year doing that and it he said the whole year doing that and it was it was incredible the results that was it was incredible the results that was it was incredible the results that came out of that were really a catalyst came out of that were really a catalyst came out of that were really a catalyst for change and so out of that came our

for change and so out of that came our for change and so out of that came our strategy and our vision out of that came strategy and our vision out of that came strategy and our vision out of that came a new building mm-hmm was it was pretty a new building mm-hmm was it was pretty a new building mm-hmm was it was pretty incredible man it was long and tough and incredible man it was long and tough and incredible man it was long and tough and hard and I would do it over again in a hard and I would do it over again in a hard and I would do it over again in a second because Wow second because Wow second because Wow so what were some of those you know the so what were some of those you know the so what were some of those you know the kind of fallout from that I love that kind of fallout from that I love that kind of fallout from that I love that picture of you know getting gather at picture of you know getting gather at picture of you know getting gather at 6:00 a.m. where were some of the kind of 6:00 a.m. where were some of the kind of 6:00 a.m. where were some of the kind of practical steps you had to take to practical steps you had to take to practical steps you had to take to actually start to restructure and like actually start to restructure and like actually start to restructure and like okay because of this because we've got okay because of this because we've got okay because of this because we've got clarity on these things here's a few clarity on these things here's a few clarity on these things here's a few thing I had to make changes to yeah so thing I had to make changes to yeah so thing I had to make changes to yeah so you know prior to that there was about you know prior to that there was about you know prior to that there was about six months with the staff that we did six months with the staff that we did six months with the staff that we did the same thing and we identified it the same thing and we identified it the same thing and we identified it everybody just because it needed to everybody just because it needed to everybody just because it needed to happen we realized we were too happen we realized we were too happen we realized we were too complicated and needed a simple simple complicated and needed a simple simple complicated and needed a simple simple strategy so we talked about what we were strategy so we talked about what we were strategy so we talked about what we were going to do but also what we were going going to do but also what we were going going to do but also what we were going to stop doing and that that got weird to stop doing and that that got weird to stop doing and that that got weird for a while because nobody likes to stop for a while because nobody likes to stop for a while because nobody likes to stop getting rid of stuff no nobody start getting rid of stuff no nobody start getting rid of stuff no nobody start getting rid of real things getting rid of real things getting rid of real things yes and we started doing that and it yes and we started doing that and it yes and we started doing that and it just it was hard but then we started just it was hard but then we started just it was hard but then we started doing things that people started saying doing things that people started saying doing things that people started saying that would never work here me included that would never work here me included that would never work here me included person said that would never work person said that would never work person said that would never work and those have ended up being the most and those have ended up being the most and those have ended up being the most effective things specifically because we effective things specifically because we effective things specifically because we all had a voice in MO rah so that was all had a voice in MO rah so that was all had a voice in MO rah so that was the hardest part getting rid of people's the hardest part getting rid of people's the hardest part getting rid of people's maybe pet passions that were not maybe pet passions that were not maybe pet passions that were not consistent with what we were trying to consistent with what we were trying to consistent with what we were trying to do hmm do hmm do hmm so that was that was difficult but in so that was that was difficult but in so that was that was difficult but in the end because we all had a voice yeah the end because we all had a voice yeah the end because we all had a voice yeah we all reputa fied that there was we all reputa fied that there was we all reputa fied that there was actually no major staff fallout because

actually no major staff fallout because actually no major staff fallout because of that process that's amazing of that process that's amazing of that process that's amazing yeah I want to come back to that for a yeah I want to come back to that for a yeah I want to come back to that for a second but just one I just want to second but just one I just want to second but just one I just want to encourage people to check out your encourage people to check out your encourage people to check out your website northbrook Church org one of the website northbrook Church org one of the website northbrook Church org one of the things that struck me when I first went things that struck me when I first went things that struck me when I first went to it you know right on the front page to it you know right on the front page to it you know right on the front page you really talked about your three you really talked about your three you really talked about your three simple paths to connect you with God and simple paths to connect you with God and simple paths to connect you with God and others and others and others and is super straightforward and you know is super straightforward and you know is super straightforward and you know churches that are this is a common trait churches that are this is a common trait churches that are this is a common trait of churches that are growing and making of churches that are growing and making of churches that are growing and making an impact there they put the cookies on an impact there they put the cookies on an impact there they put the cookies on the bottom shelf let's make it really the bottom shelf let's make it really the bottom shelf let's make it really simple really straightforward you know simple really straightforward you know simple really straightforward you know there's enough complexity and getting there's enough complexity and getting there's enough complexity and getting people to grow closer to Jesus let's not people to grow closer to Jesus let's not people to grow closer to Jesus let's not make it complex in the process by which make it complex in the process by which make it complex in the process by which they can get connected to our church and they can get connected to our church and they can get connected to our church and to each other and I would encourage to each other and I would encourage to each other and I would encourage people to check that out because it's people to check that out because it's people to check that out because it's actually was one of the things that actually was one of the things that actually was one of the things that struck me when I was you know struck me when I was you know struck me when I was you know researching your church a little bit was researching your church a little bit was researching your church a little bit was how straightforward that is it's it's how straightforward that is it's it's how straightforward that is it's it's great it's fantastic yeah yeah you great it's fantastic yeah yeah you great it's fantastic yeah yeah you mentioned a couple times around you know mentioned a couple times around you know mentioned a couple times around you know hey like most of the staff Terr a lot of hey like most of the staff Terr a lot of hey like most of the staff Terr a lot of the staff stayed you know through that the staff stayed you know through that the staff stayed you know through that transition and you know you just transition and you know you just transition and you know you just reference it there again can you talk a reference it there again can you talk a reference it there again can you talk a little bit about that my assumption is a little bit about that my assumption is a little bit about that my assumption is a lot of times in turnaround situations lot of times in turnaround situations lot of times in turnaround situations that there is a high turnover in that there is a high turnover in that there is a high turnover in leadership the church may be same in leadership the church may be same in leadership the church may be same in name but it really is a lot of different name but it really is a lot of different name but it really is a lot of different people you know talk about what that people you know talk about what that people you know talk about what that experience has been like that sounds experience has been like that sounds experience has been like that sounds like that's a bit of a unique experience like that's a bit of a unique experience like that's a bit of a unique experience to you that you've ended up really good to you that you've ended up really good to you that you've ended up really good retaining most of those leaders yeah I retaining most of those leaders yeah I retaining most of those leaders yeah I did now again some of them had left some did now again some of them had left some did now again some of them had left some of the leaders left before I got there of the leaders left before I got there of the leaders left before I got there yes right so there was some of that yes right so there was some of that yes right so there was some of that reality and since some of retired but reality and since some of retired but reality and since some of retired but you know I didn't come in they were all

you know I didn't come in they were all you know I didn't come in they were all afraid that they were going to lose afraid that they were going to lose afraid that they were going to lose their job at least some of them were and their job at least some of them were and their job at least some of them were and they voiced that to me later but I said they voiced that to me later but I said they voiced that to me later but I said no you know let's let's work through no you know let's let's work through no you know let's let's work through this and let's do this together and so this and let's do this together and so this and let's do this together and so matter of fact some of them are still matter of fact some of them are still matter of fact some of them are still with me some of them have been on staff with me some of them have been on staff with me some of them have been on staff at Northbrook for almost 20 years and at Northbrook for almost 20 years and at Northbrook for almost 20 years and they're incredibly effective still and they're incredibly effective still and they're incredibly effective still and one of the guys that is that was there one of the guys that is that was there one of the guys that is that was there who recently retired he probably said it who recently retired he probably said it who recently retired he probably said it better than I could he told me that when better than I could he told me that when better than I could he told me that when we came when I came in he said Mike you we came when I came in he said Mike you we came when I came in he said Mike you know I had to learn your way and we know I had to learn your way and we know I had to learn your way and we didn't always agree at first he said but didn't always agree at first he said but didn't always agree at first he said but you honored me and that was a that was you honored me and that was a that was you honored me and that was a that was able to allow me to turn the corner able to allow me to turn the corner able to allow me to turn the corner mm-hmm so I did I spent a lot of time mm-hmm so I did I spent a lot of time mm-hmm so I did I spent a lot of time honoring them and investing in them and honoring them and investing in them and honoring them and investing in them and talking things through and there was talking things through and there was talking things through and there was only one guy that that eventually left only one guy that that eventually left only one guy that that eventually left and it was actually a good leaving and and it was actually a good leaving and and it was actually a good leaving and he just realized that my hope for him in he just realized that my hope for him in he just realized that my hope for him in his department that was not the same as his department that was not the same as his department that was not the same as his hope his hope his hope so we you know we did a graceful parting so we you know we did a graceful parting so we you know we did a graceful parting you know we did a transition he let me you know we did a transition he let me you know we did a transition he let me know six months or so before he even know six months or so before he even know six months or so before he even left when he did it was a very graceful left when he did it was a very graceful left when he did it was a very graceful and very good and we're still friends to and very good and we're still friends to and very good and we're still friends to this day this day this day so just spent a lot of time helping so just spent a lot of time helping so just spent a lot of time helping people a lot of conversations helping people a lot of conversations helping people a lot of conversations helping people understand what was inside of me people understand what was inside of me people understand what was inside of me and why why why what was inside of me and why why why what was inside of me and why why why what was inside of me was important even if it was different was important even if it was different was important even if it was different than their way of doing things and as a than their way of doing things and as a than their way of doing things and as a result they eventually latched on to it

result they eventually latched on to it result they eventually latched on to it and matter of fact I took some of my my and matter of fact I took some of my my and matter of fact I took some of my my leaders were older when I when I got leaders were older when I when I got leaders were older when I when I got there mm-hm so I took him to catalyst no there mm-hm so I took him to catalyst no there mm-hm so I took him to catalyst no I just yes so I did leaders that were in I just yes so I did leaders that were in I just yes so I did leaders that were in their sixties to catalyst which nice you their sixties to catalyst which nice you their sixties to catalyst which nice you know so six seven years ago was still know so six seven years ago was still know so six seven years ago was still mostly yes I'm in my 40s and I was the mostly yes I'm in my 40s and I was the mostly yes I'm in my 40s and I was the old guy yes yeah old guy yes yeah old guy yes yeah for one of my staff that changed for one of my staff that changed for one of my staff that changed everything Graham hmm interesting everything Graham hmm interesting everything Graham hmm interesting that so that was interesting that's that so that was interesting that's that so that was interesting that's interesting yeah a lot of times you know interesting yeah a lot of times you know interesting yeah a lot of times you know we could talk a lot about it but we could talk a lot about it but we could talk a lot about it but sometimes giving people a chance to see sometimes giving people a chance to see sometimes giving people a chance to see something maybe that you know people something maybe that you know people something maybe that you know people have that experience going to visit have that experience going to visit have that experience going to visit another church or see another ministry another church or see another ministry another church or see another ministry or see something up close can really you or see something up close can really you or see something up close can really you know help turn the corner well what now know help turn the corner well what now know help turn the corner well what now kind of on the other side obviously kind of on the other side obviously kind of on the other side obviously things are you know heading in the right things are you know heading in the right things are you know heading in the right direction you've streamlined stuff direction you've streamlined stuff direction you've streamlined stuff reduced silos you know the problem is reduced silos you know the problem is reduced silos you know the problem is now it's a system you've developed and now it's a system you've developed and now it's a system you've developed and you know what are you doing to ensure you know what are you doing to ensure you know what are you doing to ensure that that silos don't build up again and that that silos don't build up again and that that silos don't build up again and how are you reinforcing culture today how are you reinforcing culture today how are you reinforcing culture today what are you doing to kind of continue what are you doing to kind of continue what are you doing to kind of continue that you know collaboration culture so that you know collaboration culture so that you know collaboration culture so it's a cause it's constant monitoring it's a cause it's constant monitoring it's a cause it's constant monitoring you know we will say things like and you you know we will say things like and you you know we will say things like and you know we're starting to get complicated know we're starting to get complicated know we're starting to get complicated again we're trying to complicate that's again we're trying to complicate that's again we're trying to complicate that's afraid that we use a lot and we are afraid that we use a lot and we are afraid that we use a lot and we are really open and honest with each other really open and honest with each other really open and honest with each other about about that amongst other things about about that amongst other things about about that amongst other things but if we feel like someone starting to but if we feel like someone starting to but if we feel like someone starting to grow rolled a little bit we'll have that

grow rolled a little bit we'll have that grow rolled a little bit we'll have that conversation there's a phrase that we conversation there's a phrase that we conversation there's a phrase that we use and I stole it from somebody and I use and I stole it from somebody and I use and I stole it from somebody and I camera who it was I give credit but I camera who it was I give credit but I camera who it was I give credit but I camera who was it's called it having a camera who was it's called it having a camera who was it's called it having a 10% conversation and I can't get someone 10% conversation and I can't get someone 10% conversation and I can't get someone importance that it not remember it was importance that it not remember it was importance that it not remember it was effective effective effective but they made the argument that most of but they made the argument that most of but they made the argument that most of the time if we're being honest with each the time if we're being honest with each the time if we're being honest with each other will be honest with about 90% of other will be honest with about 90% of other will be honest with about 90% of what we're feeling and we hold 10% back what we're feeling and we hold 10% back what we're feeling and we hold 10% back 10% that's bill highs lookout that 10% that's bill highs lookout that 10% that's bill highs lookout that what's the lies I don't bank job yet we what's the lies I don't bank job yet we what's the lies I don't bank job yet we do it with somebody in pain he talks do it with somebody in pain he talks do it with somebody in pain he talks about that like hay in the hoop about that like hay in the hoop about that like hay in the hoop conversation he'll say like what's conversation he'll say like what's conversation he'll say like what's what's the last 10 percent but you know what's the last 10 percent but you know what's the last 10 percent but you know you know we go to a TLS that's probably you know we go to a TLS that's probably you know we go to a TLS that's probably why I heard at yeah so we'll do that and why I heard at yeah so we'll do that and why I heard at yeah so we'll do that and we'll actually use that phrase we'll say we'll actually use that phrase we'll say we'll actually use that phrase we'll say we need to have a 10% conversation so we need to have a 10% conversation so we need to have a 10% conversation so what that does is kind of a guard the what that does is kind of a guard the what that does is kind of a guard the guard goes down and we know okay this is guard goes down and we know okay this is guard goes down and we know okay this is going to be this is going to be going to be this is going to be going to be this is going to be uncomfortable let's just embrace it and uncomfortable let's just embrace it and uncomfortable let's just embrace it and so we do that matter of fact one of my so we do that matter of fact one of my so we do that matter of fact one of my staff said that to me and they said you staff said that to me and they said you staff said that to me and they said you know Mikey know Mikey know Mikey you one of my opposite and he reports to you one of my opposite and he reports to you one of my opposite and he reports to me so I'm his boss you said you don't me so I'm his boss you said you don't me so I'm his boss you said you don't like I need to have a ten-percent with like I need to have a ten-percent with like I need to have a ten-percent with you you you kind of circumvent the you you you kind of circumvent the you you you kind of circumvent the process sometimes and it adds to process sometimes and it adds to process sometimes and it adds to complexity Wow and I thought about it complexity Wow and I thought about it complexity Wow and I thought about it and I said you're right I do do that I'm and I said you're right I do do that I'm and I said you're right I do do that I'm sorry and we need to change that thanks sorry and we need to change that thanks sorry and we need to change that thanks for letting you know hmm it takes a lot for letting you know hmm it takes a lot for letting you know hmm it takes a lot of pride swallowing today yeah undermine of pride swallowing today yeah undermine of pride swallowing today yeah undermine what I set up right you know totally what I set up right you know totally what I set up right you know totally icon III model it I think the answer icon III model it I think the answer icon III model it I think the answer your question is I model it and I allow your question is I model it and I allow your question is I model it and I allow my people to know I'll push back if I

my people to know I'll push back if I my people to know I'll push back if I disagree but I model that and I and I do disagree but I model that and I and I do disagree but I model that and I and I do it we do it too in meetings I'll let it we do it too in meetings I'll let it we do it too in meetings I'll let them you know say that to me and so work them you know say that to me and so work them you know say that to me and so work really hard yeah after a transparency really hard yeah after a transparency really hard yeah after a transparency live in the word authentic and live in the word authentic and live in the word authentic and transparent are so overused and transparent are so overused and transparent are so overused and sometimes people say it and I'm like sometimes people say it and I'm like sometimes people say it and I'm like you're saying that but you're just you're saying that but you're just you're saying that but you're just saying it to be cool specific item we saying it to be cool specific item we saying it to be cool specific item we really try to model it you know it hurts really try to model it you know it hurts really try to model it you know it hurts sometimes to do that it's not easy not sometimes to do that it's not easy not sometimes to do that it's not easy not fun it's not cool right hard right fun it's not cool right hard right fun it's not cool right hard right but and it's been life-changing for our but and it's been life-changing for our but and it's been life-changing for our staff right that's amazing you know to staff right that's amazing you know to staff right that's amazing you know to to underline that just encourage you you to underline that just encourage you you to underline that just encourage you you know there are a lot of leaders that know there are a lot of leaders that know there are a lot of leaders that talk about collaboration but what that talk about collaboration but what that talk about collaboration but what that really means is I want you to listen to really means is I want you to listen to really means is I want you to listen to my ideas you know and we're not really my ideas you know and we're not really my ideas you know and we're not really receptive of other people what I hear receptive of other people what I hear receptive of other people what I hear you saying is you know obviously you you saying is you know obviously you you saying is you know obviously you took the first step you're trying to took the first step you're trying to took the first step you're trying to draw people in and saying like hey well draw people in and saying like hey well draw people in and saying like hey well I want to hear from you I want to hear I want to hear from you I want to hear I want to hear from you I want to hear from you but then on the other end of it from you but then on the other end of it from you but then on the other end of it the fact that now you're T the fact that now you're T the fact that now you're T is willing to say hey I there's some is willing to say hey I there's some is willing to say hey I there's some stuff that you're doing that doesn't is stuff that you're doing that doesn't is stuff that you're doing that doesn't is that really building this culture that really building this culture that really building this culture positively you know is a little bit of positively you know is a little bit of positively you know is a little bit of the ultimate pat on the back for you as the ultimate pat on the back for you as the ultimate pat on the back for you as a leader say wow like this is literally a leader say wow like this is literally a leader say wow like this is literally gone the other end of the spectrum from gone the other end of the spectrum from gone the other end of the spectrum from leaders who don't even say anything all leaders who don't even say anything all leaders who don't even say anything all the way be like hey dude you're messing the way be like hey dude you're messing the way be like hey dude you're messing your own system up it's pretty amazing your own system up it's pretty amazing your own system up it's pretty amazing that's pretty incredible too that's pretty incredible too that's pretty incredible too you know to hear for sure yeah is there you know to hear for sure yeah is there you know to hear for sure yeah is there anything else you want to share before anything else you want to share before anything else you want to share before we move on with the rest of the episode we move on with the rest of the episode we move on with the rest of the episode you know I would just say this if you you know I would just say this if you you know I would just say this if you were to take the five best ideas we've were to take the five best ideas we've were to take the five best ideas we've had it at our church none of them were

had it at our church none of them were had it at our church none of them were mine which is it's not like a humble mine which is it's not like a humble mine which is it's not like a humble brag that's a true that's truth to take brag that's a true that's truth to take brag that's a true that's truth to take the five none of them are mine so I'd the five none of them are mine so I'd the five none of them are mine so I'd say get people a voice it's amazing what say get people a voice it's amazing what say get people a voice it's amazing what comes out this is the on seminary comes out this is the on seminary comes out this is the on seminary podcast stuff you wish they taught in podcast stuff you wish they taught in podcast stuff you wish they taught in seminary we're going to jump into the seminary we're going to jump into the seminary we're going to jump into the lightning round that part of the episode lightning round that part of the episode lightning round that part of the episode where we ask similar questions of where we ask similar questions of where we ask similar questions of everybody that's on the episode today we everybody that's on the episode today we everybody that's on the episode today we got Mike Valenti with us from North got Mike Valenti with us from North got Mike Valenti with us from North Brook church you got to make sure you Brook church you got to make sure you Brook church you got to make sure you check out this church they're doing some check out this church they're doing some check out this church they're doing some great stuff it's you know having some great stuff it's you know having some great stuff it's you know having some huge impact and it's I'm excited to have huge impact and it's I'm excited to have huge impact and it's I'm excited to have you on the show today like what's an you on the show today like what's an you on the show today like what's an online resource that you're using that's online resource that you're using that's online resource that you're using that's helping you these days there are so many helping you these days there are so many helping you these days there are so many but you know I love to use Evernote but you know I love to use Evernote but you know I love to use Evernote that's my favorite I know it's been that's my favorite I know it's been that's my favorite I know it's been around a while but that still is my around a while but that still is my around a while but that still is my favorite I love Basecamp it keeps our favorite I love Basecamp it keeps our favorite I love Basecamp it keeps our team together and then I've been using team together and then I've been using team together and then I've been using lately using toggle which is a time lately using toggle which is a time lately using toggle which is a time management tool that tracks how you management tool that tracks how you management tool that tracks how you spend your time oh interesting so we've spend your time oh interesting so we've spend your time oh interesting so we've had our whole staff do it and it's had our whole staff do it and it's had our whole staff do it and it's amazing where our time goes and it gives amazing where our time goes and it gives amazing where our time goes and it gives a report helps us see where we're a report helps us see where we're a report helps us see where we're spending all of our time so I really spending all of our time so I really spending all of our time so I really love that does it track Facebook time love that does it track Facebook time love that does it track Facebook time though that's the question yeah exactly though that's the question yeah exactly though that's the question yeah exactly that's great that's cool what's a book that's great that's cool what's a book that's great that's cool what's a book you've read in the last six months or you've read in the last six months or you've read in the last six months or maybe two a year that's shaping your maybe two a year that's shaping your maybe two a year that's shaping your thinking or ministry yeah I read a book thinking or ministry yeah I read a book thinking or ministry yeah I read a book recently called the friend call it by recently called the friend call it by recently called the friend call it by Scott Saul's and he basically it makes Scott Saul's and he basically it makes Scott Saul's and he basically it makes the argument that we can defend all of the argument that we can defend all of the argument that we can defend all of those people that we would traditionally those people that we would traditionally those people that we would traditionally see different differently and he talks see different differently and he talks see different differently and he talks about all the major hot-button issues about all the major hot-button issues about all the major hot-button issues and there were a few chapters in there and there were a few chapters in there and there were a few chapters in there some of it you know we've all heard it some of it you know we've all heard it some of it you know we've all heard it before but there were a few chapters in before but there were a few chapters in before but there were a few chapters in there they're really challenged by

there they're really challenged by there they're really challenged by thinking in a couple of areas so I thinking in a couple of areas so I thinking in a couple of areas so I really recommend that book very cool really recommend that book very cool really recommend that book very cool that's good that's good that's good what's another ministry that you look to what's another ministry that you look to what's another ministry that you look to that inspires that inspires that inspires you know I like to watch Andy Stanley you know I like to watch Andy Stanley you know I like to watch Andy Stanley and I know everyone probably says Andy and I know everyone probably says Andy and I know everyone probably says Andy Stanley blackest why red has even wide Stanley blackest why red has even wide Stanley blackest why red has even wide right that really messed with me and right that really messed with me and right that really messed with me and really encouraged me so that would be I really encouraged me so that would be I really encouraged me so that would be I guess my answer to that question mmm guess my answer to that question mmm guess my answer to that question mmm very cool very cool if you could get 15 very cool very cool if you could get 15 very cool very cool if you could get 15 minutes with any leader alive today who minutes with any leader alive today who minutes with any leader alive today who would that be with and why you know I would that be with and why you know I would that be with and why you know I actually had to like saw this question actually had to like saw this question actually had to like saw this question first my first response was brené Brown first my first response was brené Brown first my first response was brené Brown and she is a sociologist at research a and she is a sociologist at research a and she is a sociologist at research a shame and you know I've had some issues shame and you know I've had some issues shame and you know I've had some issues in my life where I struggle with some in my life where I struggle with some in my life where I struggle with some anxiety and shame and she just gets in anxiety and shame and she just gets in anxiety and shame and she just gets in touch with the human spirit in a way touch with the human spirit in a way touch with the human spirit in a way that I've never seen before I'd love to that I've never seen before I'd love to that I've never seen before I'd love to spend time with her and I'd also love to spend time with her and I'd also love to spend time with her and I'd also love to spend time with which turns the spend time with which turns the spend time with which turns the president of World Vision made some president of World Vision made some president of World Vision made some incredible sacrifices and just love to incredible sacrifices and just love to incredible sacrifices and just love to sit with either one of those two very sit with either one of those two very sit with either one of those two very cool well I know being a lead pastor in cool well I know being a lead pastor in cool well I know being a lead pastor in a church a growing Church like yours a church a growing Church like yours a church a growing Church like yours takes a lot out of you and you just need takes a lot out of you and you just need takes a lot out of you and you just need to kick back some time and have some fun to kick back some time and have some fun to kick back some time and have some fun what do you do for fun Mike when you're what do you do for fun Mike when you're what do you do for fun Mike when you're just trying to relax you say I loved a just trying to relax you say I loved a just trying to relax you say I loved a mountain bike that's actually a new mountain bike that's actually a new mountain bike that's actually a new hobby that I've taken up which is tons hobby that I've taken up which is tons hobby that I've taken up which is tons of fun I like like the trap shoot the of fun I like like the trap shoot the of fun I like like the trap shoot the shotgun and I just love to shoot clay shotgun and I just love to shoot clay shotgun and I just love to shoot clay pigeons which is fun and I just love to pigeons which is fun and I just love to pigeons which is fun and I just love to read cheap novels read cheap novels read cheap novels I love legs I call it the bubble gum for I love legs I call it the bubble gum for I love legs I call it the bubble gum for the mind the best way I like to run I'm the mind the best way I like to run I'm the mind the best way I like to run I'm a runner so I'd do that as well very a runner so I'd do that as well very a runner so I'd do that as well very cool well Mike I appreciate you being on

cool well Mike I appreciate you being on cool well Mike I appreciate you being on the show today if people want to get in the show today if people want to get in the show today if people want to get in touch with you or with the church what touch with you or with the church what touch with you or with the church what what would be the best way for them to what would be the best way for them to what would be the best way for them to do that yeah and that's what church do that yeah and that's what church do that yeah and that's what church that'll work or you can email me if you that'll work or you can email me if you that'll work or you can email me if you want Mike be at Northbrook Church dot want Mike be at Northbrook Church dot want Mike be at Northbrook Church dot org like so much might appreciate you on org like so much might appreciate you on org like so much might appreciate you on the show today thank you thank you for the show today thank you thank you for the show today thank you thank you for tuning in to this week's unsung re tuning in to this week's unsung re tuning in to this week's unsung re podcast don't be shy we'd love to podcast don't be shy we'd love to podcast don't be shy we'd love to connect check out on seminary inbox you connect check out on seminary inbox you connect check out on seminary inbox you can sign up at unsummon Ericom and we'll can sign up at unsummon Ericom and we'll can sign up at unsummon Ericom and we'll send you helpful training resources send you helpful training resources send you helpful training resources every week plus you'll gain immediate every week plus you'll gain immediate every week plus you'll gain immediate access to our exclusive members area access to our exclusive members area access to our exclusive members area with tons of resources you can use with tons of resources you can use with tons of resources you can use connect with rich on twitter at rich connect with rich on twitter at rich connect with rich on twitter at rich birch or through email rich at unsummon birch or through email rich at unsummon birch or through email rich at unsummon Ericom don't forget to check out the Ericom don't forget to check out the Ericom don't forget to check out the show notes for this episode at show notes for this episode at show notes for this episode at seminary dot-com it includes links to seminary dot-com it includes links to seminary dot-com it includes links to what we talked about today and more what we talked about today and more what we talked about today and more leave a comment we'd love to hear from leave a comment we'd love to hear from leave a comment we'd love to hear from you did you enjoy today's episode drop you did you enjoy today's episode drop you did you enjoy today's episode drop by iTunes and leave a review thanks by iTunes and leave a review thanks by iTunes and leave a review thanks again for tuning in to this week's again for tuning in to this week's again for tuning in to this week's unsung nary podcast join us next week unsung nary podcast join us next week unsung nary podcast join us next week when we'll learn more stuff we wish they when we'll learn more stuff we wish they when we'll learn more stuff we wish they taught in seminary