Future-Ready Staff Teams for 2026: Culture & Clarity for the Next Season with Paul Alexander

It's not uncommon to do a health It's not uncommon to do a health assessment, strategic planning with the assessment, strategic planning with the assessment, strategic planning with the church and you walk out of the room and church and you walk out of the room and church and you walk out of the room and they have great clarity uh on vision on they have great clarity uh on vision on they have great clarity uh on vision on where they're going next. They have uh where they're going next. They have uh where they're going next. They have uh great clarity on strategy like how great clarity on strategy like how great clarity on strategy like how they're actually going to pull this off they're actually going to pull this off they're actually going to pull this off and do it. And yet you walk out of the and do it. And yet you walk out of the and do it. And yet you walk out of the room and the lid to move towards that room and the lid to move towards that room and the lid to move towards that vision, actually obey Jesus and do what vision, actually obey Jesus and do what vision, actually obey Jesus and do what Jesus has commissioned and comm Jesus has commissioned and comm Jesus has commissioned and comm commanded them to do. The lid is the commanded them to do. The lid is the commanded them to do. The lid is the culture of the team and the team culture culture of the team and the team culture culture of the team and the team culture and the team [music] structure is what's and the team [music] structure is what's and the team [music] structure is what's holding them back from going where Jesus holding them back from going where Jesus holding them back from going where Jesus wants them to go. wants them to go. wants them to go. Growth pressure, staffing questions, Growth pressure, staffing questions, Growth pressure, staffing questions, [music] [music] [music] facility decisions, and the emotional facility decisions, and the emotional facility decisions, and the emotional weight of leading teams. [music] That's weight of leading teams. [music] That's weight of leading teams. [music] That's the world executive pastors are the world executive pastors are the world executive pastors are navigating right now. [music] Today on navigating right now. [music] Today on navigating right now. [music] Today on the Unseminary Podcast, we're sitting the Unseminary Podcast, we're sitting the Unseminary Podcast, we're sitting down with an executive pastor from a down with an executive pastor from a down with an executive pastor from a prevailing church to unpack [music] what prevailing church to unpack [music] what prevailing church to unpack [music] what leaders like you shared in the national leaders like you shared in the national leaders like you shared in the national executive pastor survey so you can lead executive pastor survey so you can lead executive pastor survey so you can lead forward with clarity. forward with clarity. forward with clarity. Hey friends, welcome to the UN Seminary Hey friends, welcome to the UN Seminary Hey friends, welcome to the UN Seminary podcast. Really glad that you've decided podcast. Really glad that you've decided podcast. Really glad that you've decided to tune in. We're doing a special series to tune in. We're doing a special series to tune in. We're doing a special series here this month where we're looking at here this month where we're looking at here this month where we're looking at the results of a national survey that we the results of a national survey that we the results of a national survey that we did of executive pastors across the did of executive pastors across the did of executive pastors across the country and we've pulled in some uh country and we've pulled in some uh country and we've pulled in some uh leading exps from prevailing churches to leading exps from prevailing churches to leading exps from prevailing churches to help us think through these issues like help us think through these issues like help us think through these issues like we're sitting across the table. If you we're sitting across the table. If you we're sitting across the table. If you talked about this problem, they want to talked about this problem, they want to talked about this problem, they want to help you with that. And today it's our help you with that. And today it's our help you with that. And today it's our honor, our privilege really to have Paul honor, our privilege really to have Paul honor, our privilege really to have Paul Alexander with us. He is the executive Alexander with us. He is the executive Alexander with us. He is the executive pastor at Sun Valley Church for over 10

pastor at Sun Valley Church for over 10 pastor at Sun Valley Church for over 10 uh years. He has 25 years of experience. uh years. He has 25 years of experience. uh years. He has 25 years of experience. He's a senior consultant with Unstuck, He's a senior consultant with Unstuck, He's a senior consultant with Unstuck, uh, I think for 13 years. And he's uh, I think for 13 years. And he's uh, I think for 13 years. And he's worked with all kinds of churches on worked with all kinds of churches on worked with all kinds of churches on health assessment, strategic planning, health assessment, strategic planning, health assessment, strategic planning, Sun Valley, if you don't know this Sun Valley, if you don't know this Sun Valley, if you don't know this church. You're living under a rock, a church. You're living under a rock, a church. You're living under a rock, a fantastic church in Arizona, six fantastic church in Arizona, six fantastic church in Arizona, six physical locations if I'm counting physical locations if I'm counting physical locations if I'm counting correctly, plus in prison, plus online. correctly, plus in prison, plus online. correctly, plus in prison, plus online. It's repeatedly one of the fastest It's repeatedly one of the fastest It's repeatedly one of the fastest growing churches in the country. Paul, growing churches in the country. Paul, growing churches in the country. Paul, welcome to the show. So glad you're welcome to the show. So glad you're welcome to the show. So glad you're here. here. here. >> Yeah, Rich, glad to be with you. >> Yeah, Rich, glad to be with you. >> Yeah, Rich, glad to be with you. Hopefully the conversation can help your Hopefully the conversation can help your Hopefully the conversation can help your listeners, man. Oh, listeners, man. Oh, listeners, man. Oh, >> I really appreciate that. Why don't you >> I really appreciate that. Why don't you >> I really appreciate that. Why don't you fill in the picture about Sun Valley? I fill in the picture about Sun Valley? I fill in the picture about Sun Valley? I know we've had you on in the past. you know we've had you on in the past. you know we've had you on in the past. you should go back and listen friends, but should go back and listen friends, but should go back and listen friends, but kind of give us the Sun Valley picture. kind of give us the Sun Valley picture. kind of give us the Sun Valley picture. Kind of tell us a little bit about that Kind of tell us a little bit about that Kind of tell us a little bit about that to set some context today. to set some context today. to set some context today. >> Yeah, man. Been here now for almost 15 >> Yeah, man. Been here now for almost 15 >> Yeah, man. Been here now for almost 15 years. It's wild to think back when I years. It's wild to think back when I years. It's wild to think back when I first joined the team. It was one first joined the team. It was one first joined the team. It was one location, 10 acres, one exit, one location, 10 acres, one exit, one location, 10 acres, one exit, one entrance. entrance. entrance. >> Um, and uh, you know, there's a lid to >> Um, and uh, you know, there's a lid to >> Um, and uh, you know, there's a lid to what you can do with that. And so, we what you can do with that. And so, we what you can do with that. And so, we had originally went multi-sight because had originally went multi-sight because had originally went multi-sight because we had to go multi-sight. You know, the we had to go multi-sight. You know, the we had to go multi-sight. You know, the mission that Jesus gave the church to mission that Jesus gave the church to mission that Jesus gave the church to help more people meet him and grow up in help more people meet him and grow up in help more people meet him and grow up in their friendship with him. uh we had to their friendship with him. uh we had to their friendship with him. uh we had to live to that with the space we were in.

live to that with the space we were in. live to that with the space we were in. And so we had to go multi-sight. It And so we had to go multi-sight. It And so we had to go multi-sight. It wasn't cool. It wasn't cute. It wasn't wasn't cool. It wasn't cute. It wasn't wasn't cool. It wasn't cute. It wasn't fun. It wasn't an experiment. It was fun. It wasn't an experiment. It was fun. It wasn't an experiment. It was like if we're going to obey Jesus, like if we're going to obey Jesus, like if we're going to obey Jesus, >> we don't have an option. And so over the >> we don't have an option. And so over the >> we don't have an option. And so over the years, we've had the opportunity to add years, we've had the opportunity to add years, we've had the opportunity to add new locations. And uh yeah, six physical new locations. And uh yeah, six physical new locations. And uh yeah, six physical locations, one in a prison. Our next locations, one in a prison. Our next locations, one in a prison. Our next prison campus opens up Q1. We grand open prison campus opens up Q1. We grand open prison campus opens up Q1. We grand open uh our Chandler location in March and we uh our Chandler location in March and we uh our Chandler location in March and we break ground on Santan in May. So yeah, break ground on Santan in May. So yeah, break ground on Santan in May. So yeah, man. Fun times. Lots of people meeting. man. Fun times. Lots of people meeting. man. Fun times. Lots of people meeting. Multicight's not dead at in Sun Valley, Multicight's not dead at in Sun Valley, Multicight's not dead at in Sun Valley, >> man. Multiight's not dead in America. >> man. Multiight's not dead in America. >> man. Multiight's not dead in America. >> I know. And it's true, right? It's one >> I know. And it's true, right? It's one >> I know. And it's true, right? It's one of those like people are like, "Oh, I of those like people are like, "Oh, I of those like people are like, "Oh, I don't know. That's an old idea." I'm don't know. That's an old idea." I'm don't know. That's an old idea." I'm like, "That's not what I'm seeing." I'm like, "That's not what I'm seeing." I'm like, "That's not what I'm seeing." I'm like, "Gosh, there's so many prevailing like, "Gosh, there's so many prevailing like, "Gosh, there's so many prevailing churches like Sun Valley that are just churches like Sun Valley that are just churches like Sun Valley that are just doubling down." That's that's fantastic. doubling down." That's that's fantastic. doubling down." That's that's fantastic. Well, looking forward to today's Well, looking forward to today's Well, looking forward to today's conversation. So, friends, uh, you've conversation. So, friends, uh, you've conversation. So, friends, uh, you've joined us actually for within what we joined us actually for within what we joined us actually for within what we asked two questions that were about asked two questions that were about asked two questions that were about fears for next year and, uh, for this fears for next year and, uh, for this fears for next year and, uh, for this year 2026. You caught me. We recorded year 2026. You caught me. We recorded year 2026. You caught me. We recorded this late in 2025. Uh and we're talking this late in 2025. Uh and we're talking this late in 2025. Uh and we're talking today about the biggest fear. 24.8% of today about the biggest fear. 24.8% of today about the biggest fear. 24.8% of all respondents uh respondents all respondents uh respondents all respondents uh respondents identified staff health, organizational identified staff health, organizational identified staff health, organizational structure, morale, succession, structure, morale, succession, structure, morale, succession, leadership. This the people issues as a leadership. This the people issues as a leadership. This the people issues as a primary fear heading into this year. Uh primary fear heading into this year. Uh primary fear heading into this year. Uh in fact, and then a separate question we in fact, and then a separate question we in fact, and then a separate question we asked about data and insight. Where are asked about data and insight. Where are asked about data and insight. Where are you lacking some of that? Almost 9% of you lacking some of that? Almost 9% of you lacking some of that? Almost 9% of respondents answered that they're respondents answered that they're respondents answered that they're looking for better data on staff uh looking for better data on staff uh looking for better data on staff uh pipeline and org chart and leadership pipeline and org chart and leadership pipeline and org chart and leadership development. These sort of things when development. These sort of things when development. These sort of things when you combine them together, what does you combine them together, what does you combine them together, what does that me mean? Nearly three in 10 surface that me mean? Nearly three in 10 surface that me mean? Nearly three in 10 surface staff related tension as a defining staff related tension as a defining staff related tension as a defining pressure point for 2026. And when I was

pressure point for 2026. And when I was pressure point for 2026. And when I was thinking about this issue, I thought of thinking about this issue, I thought of thinking about this issue, I thought of no one better than Paul to pull on and no one better than Paul to pull on and no one better than Paul to pull on and to have this conversation with. So Paul, to have this conversation with. So Paul, to have this conversation with. So Paul, when you look at the churches across the when you look at the churches across the when you look at the churches across the country, you interact with a lot of country, you interact with a lot of country, you interact with a lot of churches both just because you're a churches both just because you're a churches both just because you're a great person and through Unstuck and great person and through Unstuck and great person and through Unstuck and you're and Sun Valley is a leading you're and Sun Valley is a leading you're and Sun Valley is a leading church and people will ask you questions church and people will ask you questions church and people will ask you questions all the time. Where do you think staff all the time. Where do you think staff all the time. Where do you think staff health breaks down the most and why is health breaks down the most and why is health breaks down the most and why is that? Why is this such a tension for us that? Why is this such a tension for us that? Why is this such a tension for us as we lead from our seats? as we lead from our seats? as we lead from our seats? >> Yeah. Well, to your point, Rich, it >> Yeah. Well, to your point, Rich, it >> Yeah. Well, to your point, Rich, it comes up repeatedly with my work with comes up repeatedly with my work with comes up repeatedly with my work with Unstuck with churches. Um, it's not Unstuck with churches. Um, it's not Unstuck with churches. Um, it's not uncommon to do a health assessment, uncommon to do a health assessment, uncommon to do a health assessment, strategic planning with the church, and strategic planning with the church, and strategic planning with the church, and you walk out of the room and they have you walk out of the room and they have you walk out of the room and they have great clarity uh on [snorts] vision, on great clarity uh on [snorts] vision, on great clarity uh on [snorts] vision, on where they're going next. They have uh where they're going next. They have uh where they're going next. They have uh great clarity on strategy, like how great clarity on strategy, like how great clarity on strategy, like how they're actually going to pull this off they're actually going to pull this off they're actually going to pull this off and do it. And yet you walk out of the and do it. And yet you walk out of the and do it. And yet you walk out of the room and the lid to move towards that room and the lid to move towards that room and the lid to move towards that vision, actually obey Jesus and do what vision, actually obey Jesus and do what vision, actually obey Jesus and do what Jesus has commissioned and comm Jesus has commissioned and comm Jesus has commissioned and comm commanded them to do. The lid is the commanded them to do. The lid is the commanded them to do. The lid is the culture of the team and the team culture culture of the team and the team culture culture of the team and the team culture and the team structure. What's holding and the team structure. What's holding and the team structure. What's holding them back from going where Jesus wants them back from going where Jesus wants them back from going where Jesus wants them to go, which we shouldn't be them to go, which we shouldn't be them to go, which we shouldn't be surprised by this, frankly. That's surprised by this, frankly. That's surprised by this, frankly. That's that's the organizational side of how that's the organizational side of how that's the organizational side of how that shows up. This shows up in our own that shows up. This shows up in our own that shows up. This shows up in our own life personally. So on a micro scale, u life personally. So on a micro scale, u life personally. So on a micro scale, u what's preventing you and I from what's preventing you and I from what's preventing you and I from actually following Jesus and what he's actually following Jesus and what he's actually following Jesus and what he's calling us to do in 2026? Well, it's not calling us to do in 2026? Well, it's not calling us to do in 2026? Well, it's not Jesus's problem. The problem is not with Jesus's problem. The problem is not with Jesus's problem. The problem is not with him.

him. him. >> Problem is usually with us. >> Problem is usually with us. >> Problem is usually with us. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Uh the problem is with how we structure >> Uh the problem is with how we structure >> Uh the problem is with how we structure our life, our family, our time. Um maybe our life, our family, our time. Um maybe our life, our family, our time. Um maybe something in our own heart and the something in our own heart and the something in our own heart and the culture of our own heart and our culture of our own heart and our culture of our own heart and our families. And so on on a macro scale families. And so on on a macro scale families. And so on on a macro scale scale in a church, it's not a surprise scale in a church, it's not a surprise scale in a church, it's not a surprise this shows up. Most most churches have a this shows up. Most most churches have a this shows up. Most most churches have a tendency to run on a pendulum rich of tendency to run on a pendulum rich of tendency to run on a pendulum rich of either being a really high-erforming either being a really high-erforming either being a really high-erforming team or a very very healthy team. And at team or a very very healthy team. And at team or a very very healthy team. And at Unstuck, we want we want staff teams to Unstuck, we want we want staff teams to Unstuck, we want we want staff teams to be both very healthy and very high be both very healthy and very high be both very healthy and very high performing. The the problem is uh most performing. The the problem is uh most performing. The the problem is uh most churches their staff swing through that churches their staff swing through that churches their staff swing through that pendulum from one side to the other. And pendulum from one side to the other. And pendulum from one side to the other. And so, and you've seen this repeatedly so, and you've seen this repeatedly so, and you've seen this repeatedly where it's take ground uh and the and where it's take ground uh and the and where it's take ground uh and the and just do the next thing and they're very just do the next thing and they're very just do the next thing and they're very projectoriented and destination oriented projectoriented and destination oriented projectoriented and destination oriented and they have a tendency to not really and they have a tendency to not really and they have a tendency to not really care about the soul of the team, the care about the soul of the team, the care about the soul of the team, the health of the team. Um, and they're health of the team. Um, and they're health of the team. Um, and they're caring much more about the the caring much more about the the caring much more about the the destination they're chasing. or they're destination they're chasing. or they're destination they're chasing. or they're sitting around looking at each other, sitting around looking at each other, sitting around looking at each other, praying for one another, kumbaying praying for one another, kumbaying praying for one another, kumbaying together, and they're neglecting the together, and they're neglecting the together, and they're neglecting the actual call that God's put on their life actual call that God's put on their life actual call that God's put on their life is not just a personal holiness, but to is not just a personal holiness, but to is not just a personal holiness, but to invite others people other people to invite others people other people to invite others people other people to know Jesus as well. And while that's an know Jesus as well. And while that's an know Jesus as well. And while that's an overexaggeration, overexaggeration, overexaggeration, um, fundamentally that's very true of um, fundamentally that's very true of um, fundamentally that's very true of what happens with staff teams.

what happens with staff teams. what happens with staff teams. >> And so, um, yeah, walking away from a >> And so, um, yeah, walking away from a >> And so, um, yeah, walking away from a strategic planning with a church, you're strategic planning with a church, you're strategic planning with a church, you're thinking, "Oh, they've got everything thinking, "Oh, they've got everything thinking, "Oh, they've got everything they need, they need, they need, >> right? they just don't have the culture >> right? they just don't have the culture >> right? they just don't have the culture to pull it off. Their staff culture is to pull it off. Their staff culture is to pull it off. Their staff culture is going to prevent them from going where going to prevent them from going where going to prevent them from going where God wants them to go. Um or they've God wants them to go. Um or they've God wants them to go. Um or they've hired a lot of doers on the team and hired a lot of doers on the team and hired a lot of doers on the team and they don't actually have leaders. So, they don't actually have leaders. So, they don't actually have leaders. So, they've hired people to do ministry they've hired people to do ministry they've hired people to do ministry instead of lead ministry. Um or or they instead of lead ministry. Um or or they instead of lead ministry. Um or or they don't really have a development don't really have a development don't really have a development pipeline. You know, they don't have a pipeline. You know, they don't have a pipeline. You know, they don't have a plan to coach up and build up uh people plan to coach up and build up uh people plan to coach up and build up uh people that the Lord's already entrusted to that the Lord's already entrusted to that the Lord's already entrusted to them right underneath their nose uh to them right underneath their nose uh to them right underneath their nose uh to invite them into leadership in the invite them into leadership in the invite them into leadership in the church. And so um yeah, there's some church. And so um yeah, there's some church. And so um yeah, there's some overarching things that are common. overarching things that are common. overarching things that are common. >> Yeah, I so when I saw this came out of I >> Yeah, I so when I saw this came out of I >> Yeah, I so when I saw this came out of I wasn't surprised by this result. We've wasn't surprised by this result. We've wasn't surprised by this result. We've some similar results in past years, but some similar results in past years, but some similar results in past years, but um whenever I look at this fear that um whenever I look at this fear that um whenever I look at this fear that leaders have, I'm reminded what our leaders have, I'm reminded what our leaders have, I'm reminded what our mutual friend Jenny Katherine says. She mutual friend Jenny Katherine says. She mutual friend Jenny Katherine says. She she talks about senior leaders are we she talks about senior leaders are we she talks about senior leaders are we think our staff culture is better than think our staff culture is better than think our staff culture is better than it actually is. like from our it actually is. like from our it actually is. like from our perspective sitting as an executive perspective sitting as an executive perspective sitting as an executive pastor, lead pastor, we look around and pastor, lead pastor, we look around and pastor, lead pastor, we look around and man and are like, man, this is a great man and are like, man, this is a great man and are like, man, this is a great place to work, but that's not place to work, but that's not place to work, but that's not necessarily the case with our people.

necessarily the case with our people. necessarily the case with our people. Um, sticking with this idea of like high Um, sticking with this idea of like high Um, sticking with this idea of like high performing and healthy when you think performing and healthy when you think performing and healthy when you think about Sun Valley or the churches you about Sun Valley or the churches you about Sun Valley or the churches you coach, what are some practical rhythms coach, what are some practical rhythms coach, what are some practical rhythms or structures that you've put in place or structures that you've put in place or structures that you've put in place or seen put in place that really help or seen put in place that really help or seen put in place that really help try to do both of those things? Because try to do both of those things? Because try to do both of those things? Because I think that's I think that's ultimately I think that's I think that's ultimately I think that's I think that's ultimately what honors the Lord is like we do want what honors the Lord is like we do want what honors the Lord is like we do want to be high performing. We the mission's to be high performing. We the mission's to be high performing. We the mission's massive. Like gosh, we got to get out massive. Like gosh, we got to get out massive. Like gosh, we got to get out and reach some people, but we we don't and reach some people, but we we don't and reach some people, but we we don't want to drive over our people to get want to drive over our people to get want to drive over our people to get there. Help us understand what does that there. Help us understand what does that there. Help us understand what does that pract some of those practical rhythms pract some of those practical rhythms pract some of those practical rhythms look like. look like. look like. >> Well, I don't I don't think a lot of XPs >> Well, I don't I don't think a lot of XPs >> Well, I don't I don't think a lot of XPs are going to like what I'm about to say. are going to like what I'm about to say. are going to like what I'm about to say. Um, but you cannot legislate legislate Um, but you cannot legislate legislate Um, but you cannot legislate legislate health. Um, you can't you can't build health. Um, you can't you can't build health. Um, you can't you can't build enough guidelines. You can't build enough guidelines. You can't build enough guidelines. You can't build enough policies. You can't make people enough policies. You can't make people enough policies. You can't make people be healthy. You also can't lead a be healthy. You also can't lead a be healthy. You also can't lead a healthy organization unless you yourself healthy organization unless you yourself healthy organization unless you yourself are healthy. are healthy. are healthy. >> It's that's a just it's just a fact. You >> It's that's a just it's just a fact. You >> It's that's a just it's just a fact. You can't take your family somewhere you can't take your family somewhere you can't take your family somewhere you haven't been. Um you disciple people to haven't been. Um you disciple people to haven't been. Um you disciple people to use a Bible word for a second. You can't use a Bible word for a second. You can't use a Bible word for a second. You can't disciple your own children and your own disciple your own children and your own disciple your own children and your own family and people close to you by family and people close to you by family and people close to you by intention or neglect. We do that all the intention or neglect. We do that all the intention or neglect. We do that all the time unless you have something to time unless you have something to time unless you have something to actually give them. And so um this is actually give them. And so um this is actually give them. And so um this is why even in the Old Testament, you know, why even in the Old Testament, you know, why even in the Old Testament, you know, God gives the law and we realize we God gives the law and we realize we God gives the law and we realize we can't live up to the law and so it only can't live up to the law and so it only can't live up to the law and so it only shows our own imperfection, right? And shows our own imperfection, right? And shows our own imperfection, right? And so God, you know, Jesus says, "Well, so God, you know, Jesus says, "Well, so God, you know, Jesus says, "Well, hold on a second.

hold on a second. hold on a second. >> The Sabbath was made for man. Man wasn't >> The Sabbath was made for man. Man wasn't >> The Sabbath was made for man. Man wasn't made for the Sabbath." And so, um, what made for the Sabbath." And so, um, what made for the Sabbath." And so, um, what does that mean? It means I think as does that mean? It means I think as does that mean? It means I think as executive staff, senior staff in a executive staff, senior staff in a executive staff, senior staff in a church, you actually have to lead with church, you actually have to lead with church, you actually have to lead with some moral authority in this area. Mh. some moral authority in this area. Mh. some moral authority in this area. Mh. >> Uh, and so people are going to watch if >> Uh, and so people are going to watch if >> Uh, and so people are going to watch if if they get an email from you at 11:00 if they get an email from you at 11:00 if they get an email from you at 11:00 at night, that tells them what's at night, that tells them what's at night, that tells them what's expected of them expected of them expected of them >> without you ever even saying it. You're >> without you ever even saying it. You're >> without you ever even saying it. You're telling them what's expect. If you're telling them what's expect. If you're telling them what's expect. If you're texting them after work hours, so to texting them after work hours, so to texting them after work hours, so to speak, and it's not an emergency, it speak, and it's not an emergency, it speak, and it's not an emergency, it actually, you know, it could probably actually, you know, it could probably actually, you know, it could probably wait till tomorrow, but you're having it wait till tomorrow, but you're having it wait till tomorrow, but you're having it right now because it's important to you, right now because it's important to you, right now because it's important to you, and you don't have the personal and you don't have the personal and you don't have the personal self-control to be able to not have that self-control to be able to not have that self-control to be able to not have that conversation with that staff member at conversation with that staff member at conversation with that staff member at that time. You're telling them how that time. You're telling them how that time. You're telling them how they're supposed to behave. They're they're supposed to behave. They're they're supposed to behave. They're watching you. Just again, leadership is watching you. Just again, leadership is watching you. Just again, leadership is so much like parenting. And I don't want so much like parenting. And I don't want so much like parenting. And I don't want to minimize this, but children watch to minimize this, but children watch to minimize this, but children watch their parents and they naturally adhere their parents and they naturally adhere their parents and they naturally adhere to and take on the behaviors of their to and take on the behaviors of their to and take on the behaviors of their parents and the family unit that they parents and the family unit that they parents and the family unit that they grow up in. And um culture is a lot like grow up in. And um culture is a lot like grow up in. And um culture is a lot like that. It's way more caught than taught.

that. It's way more caught than taught. that. It's way more caught than taught. And so the leaders of the executive And so the leaders of the executive And so the leaders of the executive staff and senior staff, they've got to staff and senior staff, they've got to staff and senior staff, they've got to lead with moral authority. Not not moral lead with moral authority. Not not moral lead with moral authority. Not not moral perfection. We're not going to see that perfection. We're not going to see that perfection. We're not going to see that this side is seeing Jesus, right? Not this side is seeing Jesus, right? Not this side is seeing Jesus, right? Not moral superiority. We're not better than moral superiority. We're not better than moral superiority. We're not better than anybody, but just to be able to say, anybody, but just to be able to say, anybody, but just to be able to say, "Hey, man. If if everybody at my church "Hey, man. If if everybody at my church "Hey, man. If if everybody at my church and on my staff, if they managed their and on my staff, if they managed their and on my staff, if they managed their time the way I manage my time, if they time the way I manage my time, if they time the way I manage my time, if they managed their finances the way I manage managed their finances the way I manage managed their finances the way I manage my finances, if they used alcohol the my finances, if they used alcohol the my finances, if they used alcohol the way I use alcohol, or if they use the way I use alcohol, or if they use the way I use alcohol, or if they use the internet or social media the way I do, internet or social media the way I do, internet or social media the way I do, if they traded their would would my if they traded their would would my if they traded their would would my church be more of what Jesus wants it to church be more of what Jesus wants it to church be more of what Jesus wants it to be or less?" be or less?" be or less?" >> That's good. >> That's good. >> That's good. >> And so, there's a moral authority >> And so, there's a moral authority >> And so, there's a moral authority component to this. They they got to component to this. They they got to component to this. They they got to model this. Okay. Now, practically, model this. Okay. Now, practically, model this. Okay. Now, practically, Rich, because you know, okay, what does Rich, because you know, okay, what does Rich, because you know, okay, what does it actually mean? it actually mean? it actually mean? >> Take your time off. >> Take your time off. >> Take your time off. >> Like, that sounds so silly, but I mean, >> Like, that sounds so silly, but I mean, >> Like, that sounds so silly, but I mean, I remember as a young guy in ministry, I remember as a young guy in ministry, I remember as a young guy in ministry, my wife was working Monday through my wife was working Monday through my wife was working Monday through Friday. Friday was supposed to be my day Friday. Friday was supposed to be my day Friday. Friday was supposed to be my day off. I'm not the kind of guy that's off. I'm not the kind of guy that's off. I'm not the kind of guy that's going to sit around and like watch Oprah going to sit around and like watch Oprah going to sit around and like watch Oprah on Friday or like, you know, just snack on Friday or like, you know, just snack on Friday or like, you know, just snack and binge watch Netflix or something and binge watch Netflix or something and binge watch Netflix or something like that. That's not how God wired me like that. That's not how God wired me like that. That's not how God wired me up. And so I would just go into the up. And so I would just go into the up. And so I would just go into the office, office, office, >> right?

>> right? >> right? >> You know, I'm like, "What? My wife's >> You know, I'm like, "What? My wife's >> You know, I'm like, "What? My wife's working. Well, we don't have kids. I'm working. Well, we don't have kids. I'm working. Well, we don't have kids. I'm I'm going to go get some stuff done. I'm going to go get some stuff done. I'm going to go get some stuff done. >> I'm going to move the ball forward." And >> I'm going to move the ball forward." And >> I'm going to move the ball forward." And I remember the XP I was working with on I remember the XP I was working with on I remember the XP I was working with on our senior staff at that time came in to our senior staff at that time came in to our senior staff at that time came in to get something out of the office. And he get something out of the office. And he get something out of the office. And he saw me and he's like, "Paul, what are saw me and he's like, "Paul, what are saw me and he's like, "Paul, what are you what are you doing?" And so I do the you what are you doing?" And so I do the you what are you doing?" And so I do the whole my wife's working and I'm not whole my wife's working and I'm not whole my wife's working and I'm not going to sit around and watch Netflix, going to sit around and watch Netflix, going to sit around and watch Netflix, blah blah blah. And he's like, blah blah blah. And he's like, blah blah blah. And he's like, >> he gave me a gift. He said, "Paul, if >> he gave me a gift. He said, "Paul, if >> he gave me a gift. He said, "Paul, if you don't take every day off between now you don't take every day off between now you don't take every day off between now and the end of the year, don't bother and the end of the year, don't bother and the end of the year, don't bother coming in in January." coming in in January." coming in in January." >> Oh my goodness. Wow. >> Oh my goodness. Wow. >> Oh my goodness. Wow. >> Yeah. Um, and looking back, that high >> Yeah. Um, and looking back, that high >> Yeah. Um, and looking back, that high challenge was a tremendous gift challenge was a tremendous gift challenge was a tremendous gift >> to begin to teach a young man in >> to begin to teach a young man in >> to begin to teach a young man in ministry that had a propensity to drive ministry that had a propensity to drive ministry that had a propensity to drive hard to learn how to actually slow down hard to learn how to actually slow down hard to learn how to actually slow down and enjoy my life and enjoy my life and enjoy my life >> and receive from the Lord. And so, um, >> and receive from the Lord. And so, um, >> and receive from the Lord. And so, um, yeah, take your day off. It sounds so yeah, take your day off. It sounds so yeah, take your day off. It sounds so silly. I get a report on my desk once a silly. I get a report on my desk once a silly. I get a report on my desk once a year, Rich, of, uh, all of our staff, year, Rich, of, uh, all of our staff, year, Rich, of, uh, all of our staff, even multiple campuses, all that, who's even multiple campuses, all that, who's even multiple campuses, all that, who's taken their time off and who hasn't taken their time off and who hasn't taken their time off and who hasn't taken their time off. And it's not taken their time off. And it's not taken their time off. And it's not uncommon for me to have a conversation uncommon for me to have a conversation uncommon for me to have a conversation in January to say, "Hey, dude, in January to say, "Hey, dude, in January to say, "Hey, dude, >> if you don't take all your time off this >> if you don't take all your time off this >> if you don't take all your time off this year, we're going to have a problem year, we're going to have a problem year, we're going to have a problem because you're no good burning out. The because you're no good burning out. The because you're no good burning out. The the Lord needs you in the game for the the Lord needs you in the game for the the Lord needs you in the game for the long run, and I need you in the game for long run, and I need you in the game for long run, and I need you in the game for the long run. Sun Valley needs you in the long run. Sun Valley needs you in the long run. Sun Valley needs you in the game for the long run. Yeah, the game for the long run. Yeah, the game for the long run. Yeah, >> your family needs that and you can't >> your family needs that and you can't >> your family needs that and you can't self-destruct.

self-destruct. self-destruct. >> So, >> So, >> So, >> yeah. So, good. I had a similar >> yeah. So, good. I had a similar >> yeah. So, good. I had a similar interaction early on in ministry where I interaction early on in ministry where I interaction early on in ministry where I had a senior leader say to me it with a had a senior leader say to me it with a had a senior leader say to me it with a similar kind of tone. Uh, don't forget similar kind of tone. Uh, don't forget similar kind of tone. Uh, don't forget take your day off is on the same list as take your day off is on the same list as take your day off is on the same list as don't kill someone like [laughter] you don't kill someone like [laughter] you don't kill someone like [laughter] you know which always stuck with me where I know which always stuck with me where I know which always stuck with me where I was like, you know, okay. And he said it was like, you know, okay. And he said it was like, you know, okay. And he said it in a funny kind of like but the message in a funny kind of like but the message in a funny kind of like but the message was was clear, right? Same kind of was was clear, right? Same kind of was was clear, right? Same kind of thing. Hey, we and I don't know that thing. Hey, we and I don't know that thing. Hey, we and I don't know that I've always lived by that. Are there I've always lived by that. Are there I've always lived by that. Are there other other other >> behaviors that you uh you know in a >> behaviors that you uh you know in a >> behaviors that you uh you know in a similar way would lean in? I think the similar way would lean in? I think the similar way would lean in? I think the fact that you're pushing on, okay, as us fact that you're pushing on, okay, as us fact that you're pushing on, okay, as us as senior leaders, are we setting the as senior leaders, are we setting the as senior leaders, are we setting the pace with the health of our pace with the health of our pace with the health of our organizations? Lean a little bit more in organizations? Lean a little bit more in organizations? Lean a little bit more in on that for us. on that for us. on that for us. >> Yeah, sure. So, a couple practical >> Yeah, sure. So, a couple practical >> Yeah, sure. So, a couple practical things that any leader can actually make things that any leader can actually make things that any leader can actually make the decision to start doing today. Um, the decision to start doing today. Um, the decision to start doing today. Um, establish a finish line. In some establish a finish line. In some establish a finish line. In some regards, you know, when is ministry ever regards, you know, when is ministry ever regards, you know, when is ministry ever really done? Well, when 7.5 billion really done? Well, when 7.5 billion really done? Well, when 7.5 billion people on the planet know Jesus, we're people on the planet know Jesus, we're people on the planet know Jesus, we're done, right? done, right? done, right? >> So, um it's one of those the poor will >> So, um it's one of those the poor will >> So, um it's one of those the poor will have you with you. You'll have with you have you with you. You'll have with you have you with you. You'll have with you always. There's never going to be a done always. There's never going to be a done always. There's never going to be a done moment. So, you got to choose each day moment. So, you got to choose each day moment. So, you got to choose each day when you're done. And if you don't when you're done. And if you don't when you're done. And if you don't choose it, someone else will choose it choose it, someone else will choose it choose it, someone else will choose it for you. And so, um talk with your for you. And so, um talk with your for you. And so, um talk with your family, figure it out, and they may be a family, figure it out, and they may be a family, figure it out, and they may be a moving target from day to day and what moving target from day to day and what moving target from day to day and what the rhythm of your family is and the the rhythm of your family is and the the rhythm of your family is and the rhythm of your ministry is the Lord's rhythm of your ministry is the Lord's rhythm of your ministry is the Lord's entrusted to you. But you have to entrusted to you. But you have to entrusted to you. But you have to personally establish when's the finish personally establish when's the finish personally establish when's the finish line. I'm going to turn my phone off.

line. I'm going to turn my phone off. line. I'm going to turn my phone off. I'm gonna turn my email off. I'm going I'm gonna turn my email off. I'm going I'm gonna turn my email off. I'm going to mute this or whatever. Um and unless to mute this or whatever. Um and unless to mute this or whatever. Um and unless something's burning down, I'm I'm not something's burning down, I'm I'm not something's burning down, I'm I'm not gonna I'm not going to jump in. Um gonna I'm not going to jump in. Um gonna I'm not going to jump in. Um simple things. Um marriage retreats. We simple things. Um marriage retreats. We simple things. Um marriage retreats. We started experimenting some time ago with started experimenting some time ago with started experimenting some time ago with marriage retreats for our staff at Sun marriage retreats for our staff at Sun marriage retreats for our staff at Sun Valley. Valley. Valley. >> And so like everybody would say it's a >> And so like everybody would say it's a >> And so like everybody would say it's a good thing for people's marriages to get good thing for people's marriages to get good thing for people's marriages to get better. And sometimes we'll do that for better. And sometimes we'll do that for better. And sometimes we'll do that for our people in our churches. And we just our people in our churches. And we just our people in our churches. And we just thought, well gosh, what if we did that thought, well gosh, what if we did that thought, well gosh, what if we did that for our staff? you know, if the for our staff? you know, if the for our staff? you know, if the marriages of our staff got better, would marriages of our staff got better, would marriages of our staff got better, would the ministries that the Lord's entrusted the ministries that the Lord's entrusted the ministries that the Lord's entrusted to them get better? to them get better? to them get better? >> Of course they would. >> Of course they would. >> Of course they would. >> Of course they would. >> Of course they would. >> Of course they would. >> So, um, we just started doing a marriage >> So, um, we just started doing a marriage >> So, um, we just started doing a marriage retreat a couple times a year for our retreat a couple times a year for our retreat a couple times a year for our staff. We invite, you know, 10 to 15 staff. We invite, you know, 10 to 15 staff. We invite, you know, 10 to 15 couples. We have a professional couples. We have a professional couples. We have a professional counselor that we pay for um that runs counselor that we pay for um that runs counselor that we pay for um that runs the thing. And um, we we just do that as the thing. And um, we we just do that as the thing. And um, we we just do that as a as a gift to our staff because we a as a gift to our staff because we a as a gift to our staff because we think if our staff, marriages get think if our staff, marriages get think if our staff, marriages get better. The ministries the Lord's better. The ministries the Lord's better. The ministries the Lord's entrusted to them will get better. Uh we entrusted to them will get better. Uh we entrusted to them will get better. Uh we do sbaticals every seven years for our do sbaticals every seven years for our do sbaticals every seven years for our full-time director level staff and up full-time director level staff and up full-time director level staff and up and there's a um a period of time that and there's a um a period of time that and there's a um a period of time that they get and a financial allowance they they get and a financial allowance they they get and a financial allowance they get and they think about it in three in get and they think about it in three in get and they think about it in three in three different buckets like three different buckets like three different buckets like professional development, personal professional development, personal professional development, personal development and just family and and development and just family and and development and just family and and ultimately we want them to rest so they ultimately we want them to rest so they ultimately we want them to rest so they can minister from a from a full cup you can minister from a from a full cup you can minister from a from a full cup you know know know >> and some time ago we actually made a >> and some time ago we actually made a >> and some time ago we actually made a decision it didn't cost us anything rich decision it didn't cost us anything rich decision it didn't cost us anything rich that even our full-time staff no matter that even our full-time staff no matter that even our full-time staff no matter what their level in the organization was what their level in the organization was what their level in the organization was so for example so for example so for example uh full-time administrative assistant.

uh full-time administrative assistant. uh full-time administrative assistant. If they're full-time, every seven years If they're full-time, every seven years If they're full-time, every seven years they get a sbatical. We give them they get a sbatical. We give them they get a sbatical. We give them >> Yeah. you're full-time admin at Sun >> Yeah. you're full-time admin at Sun >> Yeah. you're full-time admin at Sun Valley, you get, now the scale of it a Valley, you get, now the scale of it a Valley, you get, now the scale of it a little different. We just give them a little different. We just give them a little different. We just give them a month off with no financial allowance, month off with no financial allowance, month off with no financial allowance, but we give them a month off every seven but we give them a month off every seven but we give them a month off every seven years to take it one lump sum to get out years to take it one lump sum to get out years to take it one lump sum to get out and refresh their soul and enjoy their and refresh their soul and enjoy their and refresh their soul and enjoy their life a little bit. Um what's that really life a little bit. Um what's that really life a little bit. Um what's that really cost us? cost us? cost us? >> Nothing. Time, right? >> Nothing. Time, right? >> Nothing. Time, right? >> Nothing. And so, um, yeah, there's some >> Nothing. And so, um, yeah, there's some >> Nothing. And so, um, yeah, there's some real tactical things that you can do to real tactical things that you can do to real tactical things that you can do to invest in your team. Again, you can't invest in your team. Again, you can't invest in your team. Again, you can't make them be healthy people, but you can make them be healthy people, but you can make them be healthy people, but you can kind of roll the carpet out and pave the kind of roll the carpet out and pave the kind of roll the carpet out and pave the way for them to be healthy people. way for them to be healthy people. way for them to be healthy people. >> Um, >> Um, >> Um, >> love that. That's some real practical >> love that. That's some real practical >> love that. That's some real practical examples. I love what you've you've examples. I love what you've you've examples. I love what you've you've outlined there and been, you know, super outlined there and been, you know, super outlined there and been, you know, super practical. That's uh Yeah, that's practical. That's uh Yeah, that's practical. That's uh Yeah, that's fantastic. I get the sabbatical question fantastic. I get the sabbatical question fantastic. I get the sabbatical question actually quite a bit. I think churches actually quite a bit. I think churches actually quite a bit. I think churches wrestle with that and they, you know, wrestle with that and they, you know, wrestle with that and they, you know, they they think, oh, you know, how they they think, oh, you know, how they they think, oh, you know, how should we do that? So you do kind of should we do that? So you do kind of should we do that? So you do kind of like a what we would typically think of like a what we would typically think of like a what we would typically think of as a sabbatical at director and above, as a sabbatical at director and above, as a sabbatical at director and above, but then everyone else does kind of this but then everyone else does kind of this but then everyone else does kind of this one one month off. That's great. And one one month off. That's great. And one one month off. That's great. And they do they have to submit a plan for they do they have to submit a plan for they do they have to submit a plan for the sabbatical ahead of time? Some the sabbatical ahead of time? Some the sabbatical ahead of time? Some churches will do that where they have to churches will do that where they have to churches will do that where they have to kind of define, hey, this is how we're kind of define, hey, this is how we're kind of define, hey, this is how we're going to do. Just give us a little going to do. Just give us a little going to do. Just give us a little detail on that.

detail on that. detail on that. >> We're not uber religious about it, Rich. >> We're not uber religious about it, Rich. >> We're not uber religious about it, Rich. We we we there is a plan and their We we we there is a plan and their We we we there is a plan and their supervisor talks through their plan with supervisor talks through their plan with supervisor talks through their plan with them because there's a financial them because there's a financial them because there's a financial allowance that follows that. allowance that follows that. allowance that follows that. >> Um so yeah, they have the conversation >> Um so yeah, they have the conversation >> Um so yeah, they have the conversation ahead of time. um as a representative of ahead of time. um as a representative of ahead of time. um as a representative of the board, I actually sign off on all the board, I actually sign off on all the board, I actually sign off on all those sobaticals just to make sure those sobaticals just to make sure those sobaticals just to make sure they're thinking about it and they're they're thinking about it and they're they're thinking about it and they're thinking um thinking um thinking um >> intelligently about how they want to >> intelligently about how they want to >> intelligently about how they want to spend their time. But functionally, spend their time. But functionally, spend their time. But functionally, to be honest, like you and your wife to be honest, like you and your wife to be honest, like you and your wife just went on vacation, right? just went on vacation, right? just went on vacation, right? >> Yep. Um, if our staff went on vacation >> Yep. Um, if our staff went on vacation >> Yep. Um, if our staff went on vacation for like an entire sabbatical and sat on for like an entire sabbatical and sat on for like an entire sabbatical and sat on a beach for a month or two, a beach for a month or two, a beach for a month or two, [snorts and laughter] uh, and they came [snorts and laughter] uh, and they came [snorts and laughter] uh, and they came back a little bit more rested and they back a little bit more rested and they back a little bit more rested and they had read a couple of books and spent had read a couple of books and spent had read a couple of books and spent time with the Lord and they walked and time with the Lord and they walked and time with the Lord and they walked and prayed and fasted and enjoyed their life prayed and fasted and enjoyed their life prayed and fasted and enjoyed their life a little bit, a little bit, a little bit, >> they'd probably come back a little >> they'd probably come back a little >> they'd probably come back a little healthier, healthier, healthier, >> right? So, >> right? So, >> right? So, >> yeah, that's great. >> yeah, that's great. >> yeah, that's great. >> I don't have [snorts] strong feelings >> I don't have [snorts] strong feelings >> I don't have [snorts] strong feelings about it, man. Rest. Enjoy your life. about it, man. Rest. Enjoy your life. about it, man. Rest. Enjoy your life. >> Yeah, that's good. Yeah, >> Yeah, that's good. Yeah, >> Yeah, that's good. Yeah, >> that's so good. I love that. I want to >> that's so good. I love that. I want to >> that's so good. I love that. I want to loop back on uh one thing you talked loop back on uh one thing you talked loop back on uh one thing you talked about earlier. You talked about hiring about earlier. You talked about hiring about earlier. You talked about hiring or or our the way our staff position or or our the way our staff position or or our the way our staff position themselves as doers versus leaders. I themselves as doers versus leaders. I themselves as doers versus leaders. I think this is a critical Ephesians 4, think this is a critical Ephesians 4, think this is a critical Ephesians 4, how we're supposed to be equipping our how we're supposed to be equipping our how we're supposed to be equipping our people, but I see way too many of our people, but I see way too many of our people, but I see way too many of our team members, I see us fall into this team members, I see us fall into this team members, I see us fall into this all the time where we just slip into all the time where we just slip into all the time where we just slip into doing coach us around that. How what doing coach us around that. How what doing coach us around that. How what difference does that make around difference does that make around difference does that make around cultures in our organizations?

cultures in our organizations? cultures in our organizations? >> Well, yeah. Wow. Now you're starting to >> Well, yeah. Wow. Now you're starting to >> Well, yeah. Wow. Now you're starting to talk about where accountability comes talk about where accountability comes talk about where accountability comes into play in culture, right? where vi into play in culture, right? where vi into play in culture, right? where vi culture gets violated. Um, so it's not culture gets violated. Um, so it's not culture gets violated. Um, so it's not uncommon. So I still um at the size we uncommon. So I still um at the size we uncommon. So I still um at the size we are director level and up, I still at are director level and up, I still at are director level and up, I still at least have a phone conversation uh least have a phone conversation uh least have a phone conversation uh interview with every single director interview with every single director interview with every single director level hire and up about our culture as level hire and up about our culture as level hire and up about our culture as they're joining the team here. And if they're joining the team here. And if they're joining the team here. And if they do join the team, we go through new they do join the team, we go through new they do join the team, we go through new staff orientation, you know, once a staff orientation, you know, once a staff orientation, you know, once a quarter. Chad, the lead pastor, myself, quarter. Chad, the lead pastor, myself, quarter. Chad, the lead pastor, myself, spend a half a day with all of our new spend a half a day with all of our new spend a half a day with all of our new staff and talk through our culture and staff and talk through our culture and staff and talk through our culture and our philosophy of ministry and our our philosophy of ministry and our our philosophy of ministry and our strategy and all that stuff. And strategy and all that stuff. And strategy and all that stuff. And frankly, it's just a time to hang out, frankly, it's just a time to hang out, frankly, it's just a time to hang out, have a meal together, and create some have a meal together, and create some have a meal together, and create some relational accessibility. Um because relational accessibility. Um because relational accessibility. Um because most of these people I'm not going to most of these people I'm not going to most of these people I'm not going to work with dayto-day, but I want them to work with dayto-day, but I want them to work with dayto-day, but I want them to know that we care about them, love them, know that we care about them, love them, know that we care about them, love them, and they're they're part of the family and they're they're part of the family and they're they're part of the family now. And so, um we we don't hire people now. And so, um we we don't hire people now. And so, um we we don't hire people that aren't absolutely fantastic, that aren't absolutely fantastic, that aren't absolutely fantastic, incredibly gifted people. Um, and it's incredibly gifted people. Um, and it's incredibly gifted people. Um, and it's easy to compliment everybody in the easy to compliment everybody in the easy to compliment everybody in the room. Hey man, I'm glad you're on the room. Hey man, I'm glad you're on the room. Hey man, I'm glad you're on the team. I hired you or somebody else hired team. I hired you or somebody else hired team. I hired you or somebody else hired you. I know you're awesome, you. I know you're awesome, you. I know you're awesome, >> right?

>> right? >> right? >> We don't hire people that aren't >> We don't hire people that aren't >> We don't hire people that aren't awesome. And you were gifted. You're awesome. And you were gifted. You're awesome. And you were gifted. You're gifted. Someone saw something in you. We gifted. Someone saw something in you. We gifted. Someone saw something in you. We invited you to the team. But here's the invited you to the team. But here's the invited you to the team. But here's the deal. You're no longer going to be deal. You're no longer going to be deal. You're no longer going to be evaluated on how awesome you are. Now evaluated on how awesome you are. Now evaluated on how awesome you are. Now that you're on the team, that you're on the team, that you're on the team, congratulations. You're going to be congratulations. You're going to be congratulations. You're going to be evaluated on how awesome you can make evaluated on how awesome you can make evaluated on how awesome you can make everybody else. And so your job and how everybody else. And so your job and how everybody else. And so your job and how great you are and gifted you are and great you are and gifted you are and great you are and gifted you are and skilled you are that that's what got you skilled you are that that's what got you skilled you are that that's what got you in the room. in the room. in the room. >> What's going to keep you in the room is >> What's going to keep you in the room is >> What's going to keep you in the room is your ability to make everybody else just your ability to make everybody else just your ability to make everybody else just as incredible as you. And so uh we just as incredible as you. And so uh we just as incredible as you. And so uh we just say that from the very beginning. And say that from the very beginning. And say that from the very beginning. And you know a lot of churches their you know a lot of churches their you know a lot of churches their ministry staff kind of think okay I have ministry staff kind of think okay I have ministry staff kind of think okay I have to get all these volunteers in place to to get all these volunteers in place to to get all these volunteers in place to help them accomplish my ministry. help them accomplish my ministry. help them accomplish my ministry. >> Mhm. [clears throat] At >> Mhm. [clears throat] At >> Mhm. [clears throat] At >> at Sun Valley we we flip that upside >> at Sun Valley we we flip that upside >> at Sun Valley we we flip that upside down. And the hero of the ministry at down. And the hero of the ministry at down. And the hero of the ministry at Sun Valley is the volunteer. We're Sun Valley is the volunteer. We're Sun Valley is the volunteer. We're helping that church actually be the helping that church actually be the helping that church actually be the church. The staff's role is to be a church. The staff's role is to be a church. The staff's role is to be a servant to help people find their servant to help people find their servant to help people find their gifting, their place, their calling. And gifting, their place, their calling. And gifting, their place, their calling. And real leaders who are getting paid real real leaders who are getting paid real real leaders who are getting paid real money that attend your churches, um they money that attend your churches, um they money that attend your churches, um they want to solve big problems. They don't want to solve big problems. They don't want to solve big problems. They don't want to just push a broom.

want to just push a broom. want to just push a broom. >> Now, occasionally you run into the CEO >> Now, occasionally you run into the CEO >> Now, occasionally you run into the CEO or the general or whatever who's like, I or the general or whatever who's like, I or the general or whatever who's like, I just want to push a broom to help me just want to push a broom to help me just want to push a broom to help me remain humble. Great. We can we got a remain humble. Great. We can we got a remain humble. Great. We can we got a lot of brooms you can push. But most lot of brooms you can push. But most lot of brooms you can push. But most people are competent, skilled, gifted, people are competent, skilled, gifted, people are competent, skilled, gifted, educated people and they want to be educated people and they want to be educated people and they want to be called into something that's big called into something that's big called into something that's big >> and where they feel like they're making >> and where they feel like they're making >> and where they feel like they're making a real difference. And so, um, yeah, our a real difference. And so, um, yeah, our a real difference. And so, um, yeah, our job as a staff is to call them into job as a staff is to call them into job as a staff is to call them into that, tee them up for that, support them that, tee them up for that, support them that, tee them up for that, support them in that, and let them run. Um, not let in that, and let them run. Um, not let in that, and let them run. Um, not let them run within the boundaries of our them run within the boundaries of our them run within the boundaries of our strategy and our culture and our vision, strategy and our culture and our vision, strategy and our culture and our vision, but let them run. So, but we've got to but let them run. So, but we've got to but let them run. So, but we've got to paint the river banks for them. paint the river banks for them. paint the river banks for them. >> Yeah, that's really good. I love that. >> Yeah, that's really good. I love that. >> Yeah, that's really good. I love that. Um, you know, kind of a related issue is Um, you know, kind of a related issue is Um, you know, kind of a related issue is how how is Sun Valley ensuring that how how is Sun Valley ensuring that how how is Sun Valley ensuring that you've got the right people in the right you've got the right people in the right you've got the right people in the right seats? What does that look like in your seats? What does that look like in your seats? What does that look like in your system? Like how are you um like what's system? Like how are you um like what's system? Like how are you um like what's the what's the cadence of, you know, the what's the cadence of, you know, the what's the cadence of, you know, regular reporting and like goal setting regular reporting and like goal setting regular reporting and like goal setting and, you know, how are you holding and, you know, how are you holding and, you know, how are you holding people accountable? What does that what people accountable? What does that what people accountable? What does that what does that look like? I I realize that does that look like? I I realize that does that look like? I I realize that could be like a whole episode in of could be like a whole episode in of could be like a whole episode in of itself, but give us kind of a thumbnail itself, but give us kind of a thumbnail itself, but give us kind of a thumbnail version of that.

version of that. version of that. >> Yeah, a thumbnail. I mean, at the end of >> Yeah, a thumbnail. I mean, at the end of >> Yeah, a thumbnail. I mean, at the end of the day, I'll give you the how it the day, I'll give you the how it the day, I'll give you the how it happens, but um besides the hiring happens, but um besides the hiring happens, but um besides the hiring process and recruiting process, that process and recruiting process, that process and recruiting process, that stuff matters a lot, right? So, you're stuff matters a lot, right? So, you're stuff matters a lot, right? So, you're inviting people to something that inviting people to something that inviting people to something that they're actually gifted and called to. they're actually gifted and called to. they're actually gifted and called to. >> Um >> Um >> Um but at the end of the day, um it's but at the end of the day, um it's but at the end of the day, um it's really results, Rich. really results, Rich. really results, Rich. >> The Bible way to say that is fruit. >> The Bible way to say that is fruit. >> The Bible way to say that is fruit. Okay? So, um for all of our listeners Okay? So, um for all of our listeners Okay? So, um for all of our listeners who are high on the theology side of who are high on the theology side of who are high on the theology side of things, I can sympathize with you. I things, I can sympathize with you. I things, I can sympathize with you. I went to Bible school, too. Um really it went to Bible school, too. Um really it went to Bible school, too. Um really it it's fruit and um when you are in a it's fruit and um when you are in a it's fruit and um when you are in a place when your staff are in a place place when your staff are in a place place when your staff are in a place where they're playing to their strengths where they're playing to their strengths where they're playing to their strengths and their gifting and they're in a place and their gifting and they're in a place and their gifting and they're in a place where they're not overreaching and where they're not overreaching and where they're not overreaching and trying to attain a different role and trying to attain a different role and trying to attain a different role and they're not talking about career path. they're not talking about career path. they're not talking about career path. They're just content to be the person They're just content to be the person They're just content to be the person and play the part in the body the Lord's and play the part in the body the Lord's and play the part in the body the Lord's gifted and called them to to play. gifted and called them to to play. gifted and called them to to play. they're going to have more fun they're going to have more fun they're going to have more fun >> and they're going to produce more fruit. >> and they're going to produce more fruit. >> and they're going to produce more fruit. >> Yeah.

>> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> It's just a fact. >> It's just a fact. >> It's just a fact. >> And so when when you see all this >> And so when when you see all this >> And so when when you see all this striving and you know this ambition to striving and you know this ambition to striving and you know this ambition to like I want more, I want more. I want like I want more, I want more. I want like I want more, I want more. I want more. It's a very American western idea, more. It's a very American western idea, more. It's a very American western idea, right? Um and the biblical way of doing right? Um and the biblical way of doing right? Um and the biblical way of doing that would be, hey, why don't you be that would be, hey, why don't you be that would be, hey, why don't you be faithful with what the Lord's entrusted faithful with what the Lord's entrusted faithful with what the Lord's entrusted with you today? And when he sees fit to with you today? And when he sees fit to with you today? And when he sees fit to entrust more to you, guess what? He he entrust more to you, guess what? He he entrust more to you, guess what? He he he probably will. There's probably going he probably will. There's probably going he probably will. There's probably going to be some stray arrow out of the battle to be some stray arrow out of the battle to be some stray arrow out of the battle that was never even intended to hit that that was never even intended to hit that that was never even intended to hit that guy that's going to find just the right guy that's going to find just the right guy that's going to find just the right place in the in the armor. And place in the in the armor. And place in the in the armor. And you're going to ascend to the throne at you're going to ascend to the throne at you're going to ascend to the throne at the right time when the Lord wants you the right time when the Lord wants you the right time when the Lord wants you to. to. to. >> So, you know, relax. Do what the Lord's >> So, you know, relax. Do what the Lord's >> So, you know, relax. Do what the Lord's called you to do today. Be faithful in called you to do today. Be faithful in called you to do today. Be faithful in that. And he'll entrust more to you when that. And he'll entrust more to you when that. And he'll entrust more to you when he's ready. So, that's a big deal. that he's ready. So, that's a big deal. that he's ready. So, that's a big deal. that it that may sound like a a contrite uh a it that may sound like a a contrite uh a it that may sound like a a contrite uh a little bit Bible answer to that, but little bit Bible answer to that, but little bit Bible answer to that, but when your staff are personally in a when your staff are personally in a when your staff are personally in a place where they're doing what God's place where they're doing what God's place where they're doing what God's called them to do and they're they're called them to do and they're they're called them to do and they're they're very sober minded about that, they're very sober minded about that, they're very sober minded about that, they're going to have more fun. That's really going to have more fun. That's really going to have more fun. That's really important.

important. important. >> They're going to have more fun in >> They're going to have more fun in >> They're going to have more fun in ministry. It's going to be more ministry. It's going to be more ministry. It's going to be more fulfilling and they're going to produce fulfilling and they're going to produce fulfilling and they're going to produce more fruit. Now, how's that work its way more fruit. Now, how's that work its way more fruit. Now, how's that work its way out with what you're talking about? out with what you're talking about? out with what you're talking about? >> Mhm. We have an annual run of strategic >> Mhm. We have an annual run of strategic >> Mhm. We have an annual run of strategic planning that we do both senior staff planning that we do both senior staff planning that we do both senior staff and then at the campus level and we and then at the campus level and we and then at the campus level and we refresh that every single year. Out of refresh that every single year. Out of refresh that every single year. Out of that come real clear objectives where that come real clear objectives where that come real clear objectives where the Lord's calling us to go and then uh the Lord's calling us to go and then uh the Lord's calling us to go and then uh goals, professional goals are set around goals, professional goals are set around goals, professional goals are set around that at the campus level and then that that at the campus level and then that that at the campus level and then that kind of trickles down. That all gets kind of trickles down. That all gets kind of trickles down. That all gets into review systems. Um there's monthly into review systems. Um there's monthly into review systems. Um there's monthly one-on ones where they're talking about one-on ones where they're talking about one-on ones where they're talking about the performance side of things. But it's the performance side of things. But it's the performance side of things. But it's really normal, Rich, where if you and I really normal, Rich, where if you and I really normal, Rich, where if you and I were working with one another and I was were working with one another and I was were working with one another and I was reporting to you, you'd say, "Hey, Paul, reporting to you, you'd say, "Hey, Paul, reporting to you, you'd say, "Hey, Paul, what's going on with you and Lisa and what's going on with you and Lisa and what's going on with you and Lisa and you'd be asking about my daughters and you'd be asking about my daughters and you'd be asking about my daughters and you'd be asking about my sons and we'd you'd be asking about my sons and we'd you'd be asking about my sons and we'd be talking about life and marriage and be talking about life and marriage and be talking about life and marriage and family and and what's the Lord doing in family and and what's the Lord doing in family and and what's the Lord doing in your life? What's he saying to you this your life? What's he saying to you this your life? What's he saying to you this these days, you know, um these days, you know, um these days, you know, um >> and you know, where's he challenging >> and you know, where's he challenging >> and you know, where's he challenging you? Where's he encouraging you?" So, you? Where's he encouraging you?" So, you? Where's he encouraging you?" So, it' be the very natural normal that part it' be the very natural normal that part it' be the very natural normal that part of things there. you'd probably pray for of things there. you'd probably pray for of things there. you'd probably pray for me actually in that meeting, that me actually in that meeting, that me actually in that meeting, that oneonone. And then we talk about, okay, oneonone. And then we talk about, okay, oneonone. And then we talk about, okay, how are we doing with our goals?

how are we doing with our goals? how are we doing with our goals? >> What are the measurables? What are the >> What are the measurables? What are the >> What are the measurables? What are the setbacks? Because there's always setbacks? Because there's always setbacks? Because there's always setbacks setbacks setbacks >> and what are the things that went faster >> and what are the things that went faster >> and what are the things that went faster than you thought they would go? And than you thought they would go? And than you thought they would go? And you're finding real real traction. you're finding real real traction. you're finding real real traction. >> And then my your job as a supervisor >> And then my your job as a supervisor >> And then my your job as a supervisor would be how do you get roadblocks out would be how do you get roadblocks out would be how do you get roadblocks out of the way for me to be successful? How of the way for me to be successful? How of the way for me to be successful? How do you fuel things that I need fueled so do you fuel things that I need fueled so do you fuel things that I need fueled so I can be successful and reach my goals? I can be successful and reach my goals? I can be successful and reach my goals? So, um, So, um, So, um, >> that's good. >> that's good. >> that's good. >> Yeah. Does that make sense? That makes >> Yeah. Does that make sense? That makes >> Yeah. Does that make sense? That makes total sense. So I, you know, in other total sense. So I, you know, in other total sense. So I, you know, in other contexts I've said uh results matter contexts I've said uh results matter contexts I've said uh results matter because the work that you do matters so because the work that you do matters so because the work that you do matters so much like it and and we man we we want much like it and and we man we we want much like it and and we man we we want to think about results. We want to think to think about results. We want to think to think about results. We want to think about fruit. What percentage of you know about fruit. What percentage of you know about fruit. What percentage of you know in a round sense of the team at Sun in a round sense of the team at Sun in a round sense of the team at Sun Valley has like a number or a metric or Valley has like a number or a metric or Valley has like a number or a metric or a like they can measure. It's not like a like they can measure. It's not like a like they can measure. It's not like qualitative like oh things are better. qualitative like oh things are better. qualitative like oh things are better. It's like no no we know I know whether It's like no no we know I know whether It's like no no we know I know whether this is working or not. What percentage this is working or not. What percentage this is working or not. What percentage of your people you think have a metric of your people you think have a metric of your people you think have a metric like that that they they think about on like that that they they think about on like that that they they think about on a regular basis? a regular basis? a regular basis? >> All of them. >> All of them. >> All of them. >> Love it. Tell us about that. I think >> Love it. Tell us about that. I think >> Love it. Tell us about that. I think this is going to be mind-blowing for this is going to be mind-blowing for this is going to be mind-blowing for leaders of churches who do not think leaders of churches who do not think leaders of churches who do not think about these things. And I know you know about these things. And I know you know about these things. And I know you know there's people out there who who they there's people out there who who they there's people out there who who they they haven't wrestled with this idea.

they haven't wrestled with this idea. they haven't wrestled with this idea. Unpack that a little bit more. Unpack that a little bit more. Unpack that a little bit more. >> Yeah. So, I mean, okay, so if I say I >> Yeah. So, I mean, okay, so if I say I >> Yeah. So, I mean, okay, so if I say I want my marriage to get better this want my marriage to get better this want my marriage to get better this year, we'll go real personal for a year, we'll go real personal for a year, we'll go real personal for a second. I want to get my marriage. What? second. I want to get my marriage. What? second. I want to get my marriage. What? That's wonderful. Who doesn't want their That's wonderful. Who doesn't want their That's wonderful. Who doesn't want their marriage to get better? marriage to get better? marriage to get better? How are you going to do that? How are you going to do that? How are you going to do that? >> Right? >> Right? >> Right? >> That that that just doesn't magically >> That that that just doesn't magically >> That that that just doesn't magically happen. You don't drift towards happen. You don't drift towards happen. You don't drift towards relational intimacy with your spouse. relational intimacy with your spouse. relational intimacy with your spouse. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Um what you do is you drift apart. >> Um what you do is you drift apart. >> Um what you do is you drift apart. That's what happens, That's what happens, That's what happens, >> right? Absence doesn't make the grow >> right? Absence doesn't make the grow >> right? Absence doesn't make the grow heart grow fonder. It makes it wander. heart grow fonder. It makes it wander. heart grow fonder. It makes it wander. And so, you know, you've got to figure And so, you know, you've got to figure And so, you know, you've got to figure out, okay, how many date nights am I out, okay, how many date nights am I out, okay, how many date nights am I going to do? How much am I going to going to do? How much am I going to going to do? How much am I going to budget towards this? Are we going to do budget towards this? Are we going to do budget towards this? Are we going to do an annual retreat as a husband and a an annual retreat as a husband and a an annual retreat as a husband and a spouse together? Maybe a marriage spouse together? Maybe a marriage spouse together? Maybe a marriage retreat. Are we going to go on vacation? retreat. Are we going to go on vacation? retreat. Are we going to go on vacation? What are the conversations we feel like What are the conversations we feel like What are the conversations we feel like we need to lean into? Do we need some Do we need to lean into? Do we need some Do we need to lean into? Do we need some Do we need some coaching? Rich, if you're a we need some coaching? Rich, if you're a we need some coaching? Rich, if you're a professional counselor, do I need to go professional counselor, do I need to go professional counselor, do I need to go to you and get some some input and some to you and get some some input and some to you and get some some input and some professional coaching? Because goodness professional coaching? Because goodness professional coaching? Because goodness gracious, you can see some things that I gracious, you can see some things that I gracious, you can see some things that I don't see because I'm in the fray of it don't see because I'm in the fray of it don't see because I'm in the fray of it day in and day out. So, day in and day out. So, day in and day out. So, >> um, yeah, we'll get real tactical and >> um, yeah, we'll get real tactical and >> um, yeah, we'll get real tactical and say, "What book are you going to read? say, "What book are you going to read? say, "What book are you going to read? How many of those books are you going to How many of those books are you going to How many of those books are you going to read? What podcast are you going to read? What podcast are you going to read? What podcast are you going to listen to? The unseminary, you know, listen to? The unseminary, you know, listen to? The unseminary, you know, what are you going to do to to grow in what are you going to do to to grow in what are you going to do to to grow in in your marriage this year or as a in your marriage this year or as a in your marriage this year or as a leader?" And so, yeah, if you can't leader?" And so, yeah, if you can't leader?" And so, yeah, if you can't measure it, then you can't actually do measure it, then you can't actually do measure it, then you can't actually do it. Um, right. And then it gets down to it. Um, right. And then it gets down to it. Um, right. And then it gets down to opinions. And, you know, everybody's got opinions. And, you know, everybody's got opinions. And, you know, everybody's got one of those. So, one of those. So, one of those. So, >> yeah.

>> yeah. >> yeah. >> All right. Uh, imagine imagine I'm an >> All right. Uh, imagine imagine I'm an >> All right. Uh, imagine imagine I'm an executive pastor. You meet at a executive pastor. You meet at a executive pastor. You meet at a conference or you're somewhere and conference or you're somewhere and conference or you're somewhere and you're or you're at an airport lounge you're or you're at an airport lounge you're or you're at an airport lounge and uh they're church of a thousand and uh they're church of a thousand and uh they're church of a thousand people, maybe 1500 people. they've got people, maybe 1500 people. they've got people, maybe 1500 people. they've got 10 staff and they're sensing that, man, 10 staff and they're sensing that, man, 10 staff and they're sensing that, man, there's some misalignment, but it's it's there's some misalignment, but it's it's there's some misalignment, but it's it's at the level of like I think there might at the level of like I think there might at the level of like I think there might be a problem here. I'm not entirely be a problem here. I'm not entirely be a problem here. I'm not entirely sure. I I feel like there's cracks sure. I I feel like there's cracks sure. I I feel like there's cracks starting to happen in the staff culture, starting to happen in the staff culture, starting to happen in the staff culture, but it's not like a giant dizzer. It's but it's not like a giant dizzer. It's but it's not like a giant dizzer. It's just like things just don't feel right. just like things just don't feel right. just like things just don't feel right. What would be some of the first steps What would be some of the first steps What would be some of the first steps that you would suggest a leader take to that you would suggest a leader take to that you would suggest a leader take to try to get clarity on actually where try to get clarity on actually where try to get clarity on actually where things are at with their staff team? things are at with their staff team? things are at with their staff team? >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> You know, in the next 90 days kind of >> You know, in the next 90 days kind of >> You know, in the next 90 days kind of thing. Yeah, it's a good question. Okay, thing. Yeah, it's a good question. Okay, thing. Yeah, it's a good question. Okay, so first of all, I'd say, and this may so first of all, I'd say, and this may so first of all, I'd say, and this may sound I mean, play Captain Obvious for a sound I mean, play Captain Obvious for a sound I mean, play Captain Obvious for a second, don't ignore that inclination. second, don't ignore that inclination. second, don't ignore that inclination. >> That's good. >> That's good. >> That's good. >> So, if the Holy Spirit is is is >> So, if the Holy Spirit is is is >> So, if the Holy Spirit is is is impressing upon you, something doesn't impressing upon you, something doesn't impressing upon you, something doesn't smell right, smell right, smell right, >> then it probably doesn't smell right. >> then it probably doesn't smell right. >> then it probably doesn't smell right. >> Don't bury that. Don't avoid that. Um, >> Don't bury that. Don't avoid that. Um, >> Don't bury that. Don't avoid that. Um, avoiding something you know you have to avoiding something you know you have to avoiding something you know you have to solve, uh, is never going to make that solve, uh, is never going to make that solve, uh, is never going to make that situation better situation better situation better >> ever. And so, don't avoid it. Go with >> ever. And so, don't avoid it. Go with >> ever. And so, don't avoid it. Go with that feeling. lean into it a little bit that feeling. lean into it a little bit that feeling. lean into it a little bit and and begin why why do I feel this and and begin why why do I feel this and and begin why why do I feel this way? What is what am I sensing that way? What is what am I sensing that way? What is what am I sensing that needs to be solved? Because my hunch is needs to be solved? Because my hunch is needs to be solved? Because my hunch is um they're anticipating something. If um they're anticipating something. If um they're anticipating something. If they are a good intuitive leader, they are a good intuitive leader, they are a good intuitive leader, they're probably anticipating something they're probably anticipating something they're probably anticipating something before it's going to happen. And so before it's going to happen. And so before it's going to happen. And so structure is always a lid to growth in a structure is always a lid to growth in a structure is always a lid to growth in a church.

church. church. >> Churches always need to restructure. >> Churches always need to restructure. >> Churches always need to restructure. This is really important. So once you This is really important. So once you This is really important. So once you get a structure, it's not like, oh, get a structure, it's not like, oh, get a structure, it's not like, oh, we're going to be with this structure we're going to be with this structure we're going to be with this structure for the next 15 years. And if it's a for the next 15 years. And if it's a for the next 15 years. And if it's a growing church, you're always going to growing church, you're always going to growing church, you're always going to need to restructure. And um that's just need to restructure. And um that's just need to restructure. And um that's just normal. Get used to it. Um [laughter] normal. Get used to it. Um [laughter] normal. Get used to it. Um [laughter] >> it it's part of what it is. >> it it's part of what it is. >> it it's part of what it is. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> And so >> And so >> And so um I think you got to decipher is it a um I think you got to decipher is it a um I think you got to decipher is it a structure issue structure issue structure issue >> or is it a culture issue? >> or is it a culture issue? >> or is it a culture issue? >> That that's a you know, what am I >> That that's a you know, what am I >> That that's a you know, what am I sensing that needs to be actually needs sensing that needs to be actually needs sensing that needs to be actually needs to be solved? If it's a culture issue, to be solved? If it's a culture issue, to be solved? If it's a culture issue, >> um, well, where is there a violation of >> um, well, where is there a violation of >> um, well, where is there a violation of your culture taking place and how do you your culture taking place and how do you your culture taking place and how do you help it get better? Maybe you haven't help it get better? Maybe you haven't help it get better? Maybe you haven't defined what your culture is. Maybe you defined what your culture is. Maybe you defined what your culture is. Maybe you can't actually really articulate it. can't actually really articulate it. can't actually really articulate it. Maybe you haven't written it down, Maybe you haven't written it down, Maybe you haven't written it down, trained it. Maybe you have not filmed 5 trained it. Maybe you have not filmed 5 trained it. Maybe you have not filmed 5 to 10 minute videos for every new staff to 10 minute videos for every new staff to 10 minute videos for every new staff member to to onboarding to actually member to to onboarding to actually member to to onboarding to actually understand your cultural distinctives. understand your cultural distinctives. understand your cultural distinctives. Maybe you've not embedded that into your Maybe you've not embedded that into your Maybe you've not embedded that into your annual reviews and actually, you know, annual reviews and actually, you know, annual reviews and actually, you know, at review time, you're actually at review time, you're actually at review time, you're actually reviewing me on how we're doing with how reviewing me on how we're doing with how reviewing me on how we're doing with how I'm doing with our staff culture. So I'm doing with our staff culture. So I'm doing with our staff culture. So maybe that's something you need to just maybe that's something you need to just maybe that's something you need to just kind of look in the mirror and say, "You kind of look in the mirror and say, "You kind of look in the mirror and say, "You know what? As a leader, I I have the know what? As a leader, I I have the know what? As a leader, I I have the power to change that and I'm going to power to change that and I'm going to power to change that and I'm going to get that better this next year. We're get that better this next year. We're get that better this next year. We're going to get really clear about what our going to get really clear about what our going to get really clear about what our staff culture is and then we're going to staff culture is and then we're going to staff culture is and then we're going to embed that and train it." If it's a embed that and train it." If it's a embed that and train it." If it's a structural thing, um, is it truly a structural thing, um, is it truly a structural thing, um, is it truly a structural thing or do you have one or structural thing or do you have one or structural thing or do you have one or two players that just aren't two players that just aren't two players that just aren't >> playing their part? You know, you've got >> playing their part? You know, you've got >> playing their part? You know, you've got a this wonderful body the Lord's put a this wonderful body the Lord's put a this wonderful body the Lord's put together. He talks about the church together. He talks about the church together. He talks about the church being the body of Christ. this wonderful being the body of Christ. this wonderful being the body of Christ. this wonderful body where we're limping because our

body where we're limping because our body where we're limping because our ankle we got a bum ankle and the reality ankle we got a bum ankle and the reality ankle we got a bum ankle and the reality is we either need to rest it, you know, is we either need to rest it, you know, is we either need to rest it, you know, so we can get it healed up. We need so we can get it healed up. We need so we can get it healed up. We need maybe get some repair done to it or we maybe get some repair done to it or we maybe get some repair done to it or we need to like reconstruct that thing and need to like reconstruct that thing and need to like reconstruct that thing and we need a new ankle. Um, all of those we need a new ankle. Um, all of those we need a new ankle. Um, all of those are financers and um, I think just being are financers and um, I think just being are financers and um, I think just being honest about the team that we have. Um, honest about the team that we have. Um, honest about the team that we have. Um, and everybody playing at the right and everybody playing at the right and everybody playing at the right place. And then structurally, you start place. And then structurally, you start place. And then structurally, you start getting into span of care and you do we getting into span of care and you do we getting into span of care and you do we have the right number of staff. Um, have the right number of staff. Um, have the right number of staff. Um, there those are real answers you can there those are real answers you can there those are real answers you can really get when we do staffing and really get when we do staffing and really get when we do staffing and structure with churches at the Unstuck structure with churches at the Unstuck structure with churches at the Unstuck Group. There are real healthy Group. There are real healthy Group. There are real healthy benchmarks. There are real healthy benchmarks. There are real healthy benchmarks. There are real healthy financial numbers that are good financial numbers that are good financial numbers that are good benchmarks. You know, if you're spending benchmarks. You know, if you're spending benchmarks. You know, if you're spending more than 50 cents on a dollar on your more than 50 cents on a dollar on your more than 50 cents on a dollar on your staffing, you should ask yourself why. staffing, you should ask yourself why. staffing, you should ask yourself why. You know, if you have more than your You know, if you have more than your You know, if you have more than your your staffing, you're at, you know, your staffing, you're at, you know, your staffing, you're at, you know, beyond 1 to 75 and you're creeping into beyond 1 to 75 and you're creeping into beyond 1 to 75 and you're creeping into an area that's really unhealthy. You an area that's really unhealthy. You an area that's really unhealthy. You know, I've I've seen churches that are know, I've I've seen churches that are know, I've I've seen churches that are staffed at like one full-time staff staffed at like one full-time staff staffed at like one full-time staff member for every 30 attenders at the member for every 30 attenders at the member for every 30 attenders at the church. and you're just like, it's sad, church. and you're just like, it's sad, church. and you're just like, it's sad, frankly, because the Lord's called us to frankly, because the Lord's called us to frankly, because the Lord's called us to so much more. And um so those are those so much more. And um so those are those so much more. And um so those are those are like the basic science side of are like the basic science side of are like the basic science side of things that need to be changed. you things that need to be changed. you things that need to be changed. you know, if you're not clear about who your know, if you're not clear about who your know, if you're not clear about who your senior staff is, if you got uh if your senior staff is, if you got uh if your senior staff is, if you got uh if your senior staff, like your executive staff senior staff, like your executive staff senior staff, like your executive staff are making decisions about like the are making decisions about like the are making decisions about like the color of the carpet and they're making color of the carpet and they're making color of the carpet and they're making decisions that that are low-level decisions that that are low-level decisions that that are low-level decisions, then you kind of got to look

decisions, then you kind of got to look decisions, then you kind of got to look in the mirror and say, "Boy, are we in the mirror and say, "Boy, are we in the mirror and say, "Boy, are we training our staff that all big training our staff that all big training our staff that all big decisions have to come to us or are we decisions have to come to us or are we decisions have to come to us or are we pushing decisions down pushing decisions down pushing decisions down >> and actually teaching people how to lead >> and actually teaching people how to lead >> and actually teaching people how to lead and make decisions?" Um, and make decisions?" Um, and make decisions?" Um, >> so myriad of things. >> so myriad of things. >> so myriad of things. >> That's so good. one of uh in last year's >> That's so good. one of uh in last year's >> That's so good. one of uh in last year's uh kind of rundown of you know most uh kind of rundown of you know most uh kind of rundown of you know most listened to podcast uh Amy from the listened to podcast uh Amy from the listened to podcast uh Amy from the Unstuck Group hers I think was our Unstuck Group hers I think was our Unstuck Group hers I think was our second most listened to podcast and she second most listened to podcast and she second most listened to podcast and she she dove in deep on exactly what we were she dove in deep on exactly what we were she dove in deep on exactly what we were just talking about there friends you just talking about there friends you just talking about there friends you should go back in the archives find that should go back in the archives find that should go back in the archives find that episode uh it will it'll you know all episode uh it will it'll you know all episode uh it will it'll you know all that structure stuff I I would say on that structure stuff I I would say on that structure stuff I I would say on that um particularly on structure and that um particularly on structure and that um particularly on structure and some of those benchmarks I think too some of those benchmarks I think too some of those benchmarks I think too many of us think our church is like this many of us think our church is like this many of us think our church is like this precious it's so different than every precious it's so different than every precious it's so different than every other church out there and And and other church out there and And and other church out there and And and that's true. It is a unique body. that's true. It is a unique body. that's true. It is a unique body. There's a part there's one way that that There's a part there's one way that that There's a part there's one way that that is true. But in this way, there are is true. But in this way, there are is true. But in this way, there are actually a lot of commonalities. You can actually a lot of commonalities. You can actually a lot of commonalities. You can learn from other churches and gain learn from other churches and gain learn from other churches and gain wisdom from folks like Paul who have wisdom from folks like Paul who have wisdom from folks like Paul who have done this before and talked with lots of done this before and talked with lots of done this before and talked with lots of churches. So don't don't be in isolation churches. So don't don't be in isolation churches. So don't don't be in isolation about this. Paul, this has been an about this. Paul, this has been an about this. Paul, this has been an incredibly helpful. I've got a page of incredibly helpful. I've got a page of incredibly helpful. I've got a page of notes and other questions I wanted to notes and other questions I wanted to notes and other questions I wanted to ask as we were going through. Oh, I want ask as we were going through. Oh, I want ask as we were going through. Oh, I want to talk about that. Oh, I want to talk to talk about that. Oh, I want to talk to talk about that. Oh, I want to talk about that. But I know you've got other about that. But I know you've got other about that. But I know you've got other things to do than be on our podcast. But things to do than be on our podcast. But things to do than be on our podcast. But as you're thinking about the 2026, the as you're thinking about the 2026, the as you're thinking about the 2026, the year coming up here, uh what's a year coming up here, uh what's a year coming up here, uh what's a question or two that you're wrestling question or two that you're wrestling question or two that you're wrestling with that you're thinking through? Uh it with that you're thinking through? Uh it with that you're thinking through? Uh it doesn't have to be on what we just doesn't have to be on what we just doesn't have to be on what we just talked about there, but just as you talked about there, but just as you talked about there, but just as you think about the future of Sun Valley, think about the future of Sun Valley, think about the future of Sun Valley, what are some things that you're what are some things that you're what are some things that you're thinking about going into this year?

thinking about going into this year? thinking about going into this year? >> Yeah, it's a good question. I mean, we >> Yeah, it's a good question. I mean, we >> Yeah, it's a good question. I mean, we press we deal with pressure points just press we deal with pressure points just press we deal with pressure points just like every church does, right? like every church does, right? like every church does, right? >> Um frankly, the pressure points we're >> Um frankly, the pressure points we're >> Um frankly, the pressure points we're dealing with, we're going through a dealing with, we're going through a dealing with, we're going through a season of uh a couple of years of pretty season of uh a couple of years of pretty season of uh a couple of years of pretty significant growth. lot of people significant growth. lot of people significant growth. lot of people meeting Jesus last this is the first meeting Jesus last this is the first meeting Jesus last this is the first time in back-to-back years we baptized time in back-to-back years we baptized time in back-to-back years we baptized more than 1500 people you know in more than 1500 people you know in more than 1500 people you know in backto-back years backto-back years backto-back years >> and so there's a huge responsibility >> and so there's a huge responsibility >> and so there's a huge responsibility that our growth our front-end growth is that our growth our front-end growth is that our growth our front-end growth is beginning to outpace our engagement beginning to outpace our engagement beginning to outpace our engagement things like uh people engaging in groups things like uh people engaging in groups things like uh people engaging in groups and building meaningful friendships and building meaningful friendships and building meaningful friendships around God's word or engaging in around God's word or engaging in around God's word or engaging in volunteering and being the church not volunteering and being the church not volunteering and being the church not just coming to church right and giving just coming to church right and giving just coming to church right and giving learning to be generous generous and learning to be generous generous and learning to be generous generous and steward what the Lord's entrusted to steward what the Lord's entrusted to steward what the Lord's entrusted to them kind of these markers that we see them kind of these markers that we see them kind of these markers that we see of people who are actually beginning to of people who are actually beginning to of people who are actually beginning to look like Jesus. They're not just, you look like Jesus. They're not just, you look like Jesus. They're not just, you know, know, know, >> you know, attending church and trying to >> you know, attending church and trying to >> you know, attending church and trying to figure Jesus out a little bit. And so, figure Jesus out a little bit. And so, figure Jesus out a little bit. And so, >> in a lot of ways, we need a bigger boat. >> in a lot of ways, we need a bigger boat. >> in a lot of ways, we need a bigger boat. We've got multiple campuses that are We've got multiple campuses that are We've got multiple campuses that are doing two services on Saturday and three doing two services on Saturday and three doing two services on Saturday and three services on Sunday. And we've we've got services on Sunday. And we've we've got services on Sunday. And we've we've got to get some bigger rooms. And um, you to get some bigger rooms. And um, you to get some bigger rooms. And um, you know, the other side of it is is growth know, the other side of it is is growth know, the other side of it is is growth sometimes can grow faster than our sometimes can grow faster than our sometimes can grow faster than our ability to grow leaders. I mean, you ability to grow leaders. I mean, you ability to grow leaders. I mean, you think about your own personal think about your own personal think about your own personal leadership, Rich. I mean, how long has leadership, Rich. I mean, how long has leadership, Rich. I mean, how long has it taken you to become the leader you it taken you to become the leader you it taken you to become the leader you are today?

are today? are today? >> Right. Right. >> Right. Right. >> Right. Right. >> Not overnight. >> Not overnight. >> Not overnight. >> Yeah. Your whole life. >> Yeah. Your whole life. >> Yeah. Your whole life. >> 18 months. Yes. >> 18 months. Yes. >> 18 months. Yes. >> Yeah. The answer is your whole life. And >> Yeah. The answer is your whole life. And >> Yeah. The answer is your whole life. And so, there's definitely been crucible so, there's definitely been crucible so, there's definitely been crucible moments that my hunch is if we unpack moments that my hunch is if we unpack moments that my hunch is if we unpack your leadership journey, there's been your leadership journey, there's been your leadership journey, there's been crucible moments where the Lord has uh crucible moments where the Lord has uh crucible moments where the Lord has uh stretched and grown you in unique ways stretched and grown you in unique ways stretched and grown you in unique ways and unique seasons because of pressure and unique seasons because of pressure and unique seasons because of pressure points that you went through. points that you went through. points that you went through. >> And so, um, we're figuring out how do we >> And so, um, we're figuring out how do we >> And so, um, we're figuring out how do we accelerate leadership in in our staff? accelerate leadership in in our staff? accelerate leadership in in our staff? Um, and you you accelerate leadership Um, and you you accelerate leadership Um, and you you accelerate leadership not by by giving resources but by not by by giving resources but by not by by giving resources but by constricting resources because leaders constricting resources because leaders constricting resources because leaders always figure it out and grow through always figure it out and grow through always figure it out and grow through constriction moments. constriction moments. constriction moments. >> That's good. >> That's good. >> That's good. >> And so giving stretch assignments, all >> And so giving stretch assignments, all >> And so giving stretch assignments, all those kind of fun things. So yeah, we those kind of fun things. So yeah, we those kind of fun things. So yeah, we deal with pressure points just like deal with pressure points just like deal with pressure points just like everybody else does. I mean, everybody's everybody else does. I mean, everybody's everybody else does. I mean, everybody's like, "Oh, I'd love to have that like, "Oh, I'd love to have that like, "Oh, I'd love to have that problem." I I know you would. It's a problem." I I know you would. It's a problem." I I know you would. It's a wonderful problem to have. uh it's still wonderful problem to have. uh it's still wonderful problem to have. uh it's still a problem because we don't want to a problem because we don't want to a problem because we don't want to become a lid to more people meeting become a lid to more people meeting become a lid to more people meeting Jesus in 2026, Jesus in 2026, Jesus in 2026, you know, by us not solving something. you know, by us not solving something. you know, by us not solving something. It's in our control to solve. It's in our control to solve. It's in our control to solve. >> Yeah. In other context, I've talked >> Yeah. In other context, I've talked >> Yeah. In other context, I've talked about platinum [clears throat] problems.

about platinum [clears throat] problems. about platinum [clears throat] problems. Those are are great problems, but Those are are great problems, but Those are are great problems, but they're still problems. They're things they're still problems. They're things they're still problems. They're things we have to wrestle with. And and we have to wrestle with. And and we have to wrestle with. And and friends, if you're not tracking with Sun friends, if you're not tracking with Sun friends, if you're not tracking with Sun Valley, you should be or Paul or the Valley, you should be or Paul or the Valley, you should be or Paul or the Unstuck Group. These are all Unstuck Group. These are all Unstuck Group. These are all organizations you should be uh getting a organizations you should be uh getting a organizations you should be uh getting a chance to kind of follow along with. If chance to kind of follow along with. If chance to kind of follow along with. If people want to kind of connect with the people want to kind of connect with the people want to kind of connect with the church, get a better sense, follow along church, get a better sense, follow along church, get a better sense, follow along with your story. Where do we want to with your story. Where do we want to with your story. Where do we want to send them online? Uh tell us about that. send them online? Uh tell us about that. send them online? Uh tell us about that. And then also Unstuck Group. I want to And then also Unstuck Group. I want to And then also Unstuck Group. I want to make sure we we send people there too. make sure we we send people there too. make sure we we send people there too. >> Yeah, Unstuck Group is super easy to >> Yeah, Unstuck Group is super easy to >> Yeah, Unstuck Group is super easy to find. Unstuckroup.com. find. Unstuckroup.com. find. Unstuckroup.com. Uh the listeners can [music] email me at Uh the listeners can [music] email me at Uh the listeners can [music] email me at paultheunstuckgroup.com. paultheunstuckgroup.com. paultheunstuckgroup.com. That's the easiest way to get me, That's the easiest way to get me, That's the easiest way to get me, frankly. Um the easiest, cleanest way to frankly. Um the easiest, cleanest way to frankly. Um the easiest, cleanest way to [music] get me if someone has a question [music] get me if someone has a question [music] get me if someone has a question or wants to follow up on something or wants to follow up on something or wants to follow up on something personally. I'm happy to do that, man. personally. I'm happy to do that, man. personally. I'm happy to do that, man. Great. Great. Great. >> Um >> Um >> Um >> thanks so much, Paul. I appreciate you >> thanks so much, Paul. I appreciate you >> thanks so much, Paul. I appreciate you being here today and and uh [music] being here today and and uh [music] being here today and and uh [music] really looking forward to seeing what really looking forward to seeing what really looking forward to seeing what happens in 2026 at Sun Valley. Take happens in 2026 at Sun Valley. Take happens in 2026 at Sun Valley. Take care, man. care, man. care, man. >> Yeah, glad to, man. Thanks for the >> Yeah, glad to, man. Thanks for the >> Yeah, glad to, man. Thanks for the invitation. Hope the conversation's invitation. Hope the conversation's invitation. Hope the conversation's helpful. [music]