Ben Stapley on Leading Creatives at Your Church

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the unset Maneri everybody welcome to the unset Maneri podcast my name is rich I am so glad podcast my name is rich I am so glad podcast my name is rich I am so glad that you decided to tune in today I know that you decided to tune in today I know that you decided to tune in today I know this is a lot going on at your church this is a lot going on at your church this is a lot going on at your church and we're just honored that you would and we're just honored that you would and we're just honored that you would take some time out to pops in your ear take some time out to pops in your ear take some time out to pops in your ear buds and to listen in to today's buds and to listen in to today's buds and to listen in to today's conversation super excited to have been conversation super excited to have been conversation super excited to have been stapley with us he has the creative stapley with us he has the creative stapley with us he has the creative pastor at god's favorite church liquid pastor at god's favorite church liquid pastor at god's favorite church liquid church in New Jersey Jesus does love New church in New Jersey Jesus does love New church in New Jersey Jesus does love New Jersey and he's doing that through Jersey and he's doing that through Jersey and he's doing that through liquid church been welcome to the show liquid church been welcome to the show liquid church been welcome to the show great to be here rich now being a great to be here rich now being a great to be here rich now being a creative pastor that means that you are creative pastor that means that you are creative pastor that means that you are a creative leader why don't you tell us a creative leader why don't you tell us a creative leader why don't you tell us about liquid give us a sense of liquid about liquid give us a sense of liquid about liquid give us a sense of liquid church which seems funny to say but only church which seems funny to say but only church which seems funny to say but only tell us about liquid and tell us about

tell us about liquid and tell us about tell us about liquid and tell us about your role yeah so liquid church started your role yeah so liquid church started your role yeah so liquid church started about 10 years ago we're in the about 10 years ago we're in the about 10 years ago we're in the northeastern New Jersey we currently northeastern New Jersey we currently northeastern New Jersey we currently have six campuses at about 325 hundred have six campuses at about 325 hundred have six campuses at about 325 hundred people on a weekend serve a weekend come people on a weekend serve a weekend come people on a weekend serve a weekend come through our doors and so that's who we through our doors and so that's who we through our doors and so that's who we are early pastors Tim Lucas and he are early pastors Tim Lucas and he are early pastors Tim Lucas and he himself is highly creative and an himself is highly creative and an himself is highly creative and an incredible leader of creative people as incredible leader of creative people as incredible leader of creative people as well so I got a chance to be on staff as well so I got a chance to be on staff as well so I got a chance to be on staff as a creative person but also being led by a creative person but also being led by a creative person but also being led by someone who kind of thinks with a very someone who kind of thinks with a very someone who kind of thinks with a very creative mind as well yeah absolutely creative mind as well yeah absolutely creative mind as well yeah absolutely liquid has done some amazing things over liquid has done some amazing things over liquid has done some amazing things over the years you really should if you're the years you really should if you're the years you really should if you're not following liquid you need to so now not following liquid you need to so now not following liquid you need to so now to let you tell me kind of let's talk to let you tell me kind of let's talk to let you tell me kind of let's talk about that tension of kind of the about that tension of kind of the about that tension of kind of the difference between you know the and difference between you know the and difference between you know the and probably a part of it is probably a part of it is probably a part of it is really not true it's like a construct of really not true it's like a construct of really not true it's like a construct of like creative people that are like wow like creative people that are like wow like creative people that are like wow come on let's do something crazy and come on let's do something crazy and come on let's do something crazy and then leadership which is like okay we then leadership which is like okay we then leadership which is like okay we need to like get this done lets you know need to like get this done lets you know need to like get this done lets you know push forward have you seen that adds push forward have you seen that adds push forward have you seen that adds attention in your ministry yeah I've attention in your ministry yeah I've attention in your ministry yeah I've seen that kind of being a part of a seen that kind of being a part of a seen that kind of being a part of a couple churches now at this point but couple churches now at this point but couple churches now at this point but I've seen that kind of where wherever I've seen that kind of where wherever I've seen that kind of where wherever I've been growing up in a church or 50 I've been growing up in a church or 50 I've been growing up in a church or 50 being a part of the church or 500 or being a part of the church or 500 or being a part of the church or 500 or 5,000 you kind of see some of those 5,000 you kind of see some of those 5,000 you kind of see some of those tropes being played out again it's not tropes being played out again it's not tropes being played out again it's not binary not one for one you could have a binary not one for one you could have a binary not one for one you could have a highly creative leader but oftentimes highly creative leader but oftentimes highly creative leader but oftentimes leaders are they're charged with more leaders are they're charged with more leaders are they're charged with more than just the creativity they're looking than just the creativity they're looking than just the creativity they're looking at moving the whole organization the at moving the whole organization the at moving the whole organization the whole church forward and where the whole church forward and where the whole church forward and where the creative is thinking about hey you have creative is thinking about hey you have creative is thinking about hey you have that communication piece I want to make that communication piece I want to make that communication piece I want to make it creative I want to confuse it with it creative I want to confuse it with it creative I want to confuse it with some artistic merit and I want to make some artistic merit and I want to make some artistic merit and I want to make it as good as possible I'm not so

it as good as possible I'm not so it as good as possible I'm not so important about the message I'm more important about the message I'm more important about the message I'm more concerned about the communication of concerned about the communication of concerned about the communication of that and how we're going to do that well that and how we're going to do that well that and how we're going to do that well and so there's going to be a tension and so there's going to be a tension and so there's going to be a tension there because those are those are two there because those are those are two there because those are those are two values that sometimes can rub up against values that sometimes can rub up against values that sometimes can rub up against each other very cool very cool well what each other very cool very cool well what each other very cool very cool well what have you you know are there some have you you know are there some have you you know are there some practical tactics or steps that you've practical tactics or steps that you've practical tactics or steps that you've taken to kind of help you know bridge taken to kind of help you know bridge taken to kind of help you know bridge those gaps or to help as a creative you those gaps or to help as a creative you those gaps or to help as a creative you know working with leaders or vice versa know working with leaders or vice versa know working with leaders or vice versa as a leader as you are working with as a leader as you are working with as a leader as you are working with creative folks yeah it's nice i'm kind creative folks yeah it's nice i'm kind creative folks yeah it's nice i'm kind of being both on both sides of the table of being both on both sides of the table of being both on both sides of the table being a creative being lead and being a being a creative being lead and being a being a creative being lead and being a leader leading created so this got a leader leading created so this got a leader leading created so this got a chance to see both and one of the things chance to see both and one of the things chance to see both and one of the things that I tried to tell leaders so I'm just that I tried to tell leaders so I'm just that I tried to tell leaders so I'm just talking to them in particular is that talking to them in particular is that talking to them in particular is that I'm creative love Jesus as well and you I'm creative love Jesus as well and you I'm creative love Jesus as well and you might get a laugh out of that but just might get a laugh out of that but just might get a laugh out of that but just because you have the the the title because you have the the the title because you have the the the title pastor somewhere in your either title pastor somewhere in your either title pastor somewhere in your either title doesn't necessarily make you more doesn't necessarily make you more doesn't necessarily make you more spiritual or being that you love Jesus spiritual or being that you love Jesus spiritual or being that you love Jesus more than your credit swear sometimes more than your credit swear sometimes more than your credit swear sometimes credits to be seen as this walkie bunch credits to be seen as this walkie bunch credits to be seen as this walkie bunch that does this artsy-fartsy stuff but that does this artsy-fartsy stuff but that does this artsy-fartsy stuff but their spirituality is making a step their spirituality is making a step their spirituality is making a step lower is maybe not said but sometimes lower is maybe not said but sometimes lower is maybe not said but sometimes felt or implied another flip side felt or implied another flip side felt or implied another flip side foreign creative that I listened to this foreign creative that I listened to this foreign creative that I listened to this the same applies to you as well that you the same applies to you as well that you the same applies to you as well that you don't love Jesus more than your leader don't love Jesus more than your leader don't love Jesus more than your leader unnecessarily so just like giving that unnecessarily so just like giving that unnecessarily so just like giving that benefit of the doubt that we're all benefit of the doubt that we're all benefit of the doubt that we're all growing together and we're all trying to growing together and we're all trying to growing together and we're all trying to proclaim his name is this the first proclaim his name is this the first proclaim his name is this the first foundation that you need to lay before foundation that you need to lay before foundation that you need to lay before you move you move you move we're going to work together oh that's a we're going to work together oh that's a we're going to work together oh that's a good that's a good point i think you good that's a good point i think you good that's a good point i think you know you're pushing on an issue that i'm know you're pushing on an issue that i'm know you're pushing on an issue that i'm sure a lot of people wouldn't actually sure a lot of people wouldn't actually sure a lot of people wouldn't actually say out loud but i think is there you

say out loud but i think is there you say out loud but i think is there you know i think on both sides of that you know i think on both sides of that you know i think on both sides of that you know this kind of tension you can get to know this kind of tension you can get to know this kind of tension you can get to the point where there's like a holier the point where there's like a holier the point where there's like a holier than now you know approach that's good than now you know approach that's good than now you know approach that's good anything else really think she would be anything else really think she would be anything else really think she would be thinking about ya me I one of our staff thinking about ya me I one of our staff thinking about ya me I one of our staff values that liquid is absolute sober values that liquid is absolute sober values that liquid is absolute sober perfectionism and I think this really perfectionism and I think this really perfectionism and I think this really applies for the arts and another way to applies for the arts and another way to applies for the arts and another way to say that it gives them an opportunity to say that it gives them an opportunity to say that it gives them an opportunity to fail so where are a pin is where they fail so where are a pin is where they fail so where are a pin is where they can experiment and do things and be able can experiment and do things and be able can experiment and do things and be able to learn and fail maybe that's probably to learn and fail maybe that's probably to learn and fail maybe that's probably not the sunday morning service and the not the sunday morning service and the not the sunday morning service and the 60 75 90 minutes the content that you 60 75 90 minutes the content that you 60 75 90 minutes the content that you really need to nail out of the park really need to nail out of the park really need to nail out of the park that's probably not the right Avenue for that's probably not the right Avenue for that's probably not the right Avenue for them to do that but they need to do it them to do that but they need to do it them to do that but they need to do it because their best work is going to come because their best work is going to come because their best work is going to come through trial and error and if they through trial and error and if they through trial and error and if they think they have no leap for error that think they have no leap for error that think they have no leap for error that it's going to put them in a stressful it's going to put them in a stressful it's going to put them in a stressful position it's going to make them tense position it's going to make them tense position it's going to make them tense and make them clam up and there the and make them clam up and there the and make them clam up and there the creative juices aren't going to flow so creative juices aren't going to flow so creative juices aren't going to flow so again that doesn't mean as a creative again that doesn't mean as a creative again that doesn't mean as a creative that I'm gonna be able to just kind of that I'm gonna be able to just kind of that I'm gonna be able to just kind of pull something out Sunday morning pull something out Sunday morning pull something out Sunday morning without your approval and without any without your approval and without any without your approval and without any feedback loops but from the leader it feedback loops but from the leader it feedback loops but from the leader it also means okay what is that Avenue it also means okay what is that Avenue it also means okay what is that Avenue it might be a staff meeting hey you know might be a staff meeting hey you know might be a staff meeting hey you know throw something creative in this and go throw something creative in this and go throw something creative in this and go hog wild and allow it to fail and maybe hog wild and allow it to fail and maybe hog wild and allow it to fail and maybe a bit of a bomb or may be pleasantly a bit of a bomb or may be pleasantly a bit of a bomb or may be pleasantly surprised as leader that you you surprised as leader that you you surprised as leader that you you extended the leash a little bit longer extended the leash a little bit longer extended the leash a little bit longer and you're really pleased with the and you're really pleased with the and you're really pleased with the direction they went with a concept so direction they went with a concept so direction they went with a concept so what is that Avenue in which they can what is that Avenue in which they can what is that Avenue in which they can fail and and make sure it's a obviously fail and and make sure it's a obviously fail and and make sure it's a obviously not too big but they have some place not too big but they have some place not too big but they have some place where they can kind of play and where they can kind of play and where they can kind of play and experiment can you give you an example experiment can you give you an example experiment can you give you an example of that you know you talked about you of that you know you talked about you of that you know you talked about you know staff meetings I think that's a know staff meetings I think that's a know staff meetings I think that's a good that's a great area for that or

good that's a great area for that or good that's a great area for that or there other avenues you could see or there other avenues you could see or there other avenues you could see or maybe things that have happened you've maybe things that have happened you've maybe things that have happened you've actually you know you've actually seen actually you know you've actually seen actually you know you've actually seen or participated in where you kind of or participated in where you kind of or participated in where you kind of given a you know creatives an given a you know creatives an given a you know creatives an opportunity to be creative and opportunity to be creative and opportunity to be creative and potentially fail yeah so some of that is potentially fail yeah so some of that is potentially fail yeah so some of that is is other venues of communication within is other venues of communication within is other venues of communication within the church and I wouldn't say this the church and I wouldn't say this the church and I wouldn't say this probably is the best model because probably is the best model because probably is the best model because sometimes it's used and abused to this sometimes it's used and abused to this sometimes it's used and abused to this end is the other environments that end is the other environments that end is the other environments that you've created so maybe not your service you've created so maybe not your service you've created so maybe not your service but maybe your family ministry spaces but maybe your family ministry spaces but maybe your family ministry spaces but then if it's only in that space and but then if it's only in that space and but then if it's only in that space and it's like we can bring our B game here it's like we can bring our B game here it's like we can bring our B game here and kind of not not bring our best and kind of not not bring our best and kind of not not bring our best because it's because it's because it's just family our family environment so so just family our family environment so so just family our family environment so so i would say experiment but make sure i would say experiment but make sure i would say experiment but make sure it's different areas not always the same it's different areas not always the same it's different areas not always the same one or when is it the same one then one or when is it the same one then one or when is it the same one then you've already identified to everyone on you've already identified to everyone on you've already identified to everyone on staff but this is lesser important to staff but this is lesser important to staff but this is lesser important to everybody here i would say it's in the everybody here i would say it's in the everybody here i would say it's in the environment then they get to participate environment then they get to participate environment then they get to participate in and it's also their ability to cast in and it's also their ability to cast in and it's also their ability to cast vision and leave an idea up to change vision and leave an idea up to change vision and leave an idea up to change sometimes ideas only permeate down a sometimes ideas only permeate down a sometimes ideas only permeate down a chain right and that's it the leaf has chain right and that's it the leaf has chain right and that's it the leaf has no comment hey this is the vision this no comment hey this is the vision this no comment hey this is the vision this is what we're doing and all the kratos is what we're doing and all the kratos is what we're doing and all the kratos who have a lot of ideas sitting around who have a lot of ideas sitting around who have a lot of ideas sitting around said I'd love to be able to pitch an said I'd love to be able to pitch an said I'd love to be able to pitch an idea mmmn to go for that so maybe in idea mmmn to go for that so maybe in idea mmmn to go for that so maybe in your meetings if you're always when your meetings if you're always when your meetings if you're always when casting vision step back let someone casting vision step back let someone casting vision step back let someone else read it and let they come and else read it and let they come and else read it and let they come and impress me with ideas another way I've impress me with ideas another way I've impress me with ideas another way I've seen this done is even before you get to seen this done is even before you get to seen this done is even before you get to the meeting just because lead pastors the meeting just because lead pastors the meeting just because lead pastors executive pastors have so much weight in executive pastors have so much weight in executive pastors have so much weight in there in a room even when they are there in a room even when they are there in a room even when they are trying to give space for creatives to trying to give space for creatives to trying to give space for creatives to leave their voice says so much in the

leave their voice says so much in the leave their voice says so much in the present though so much so I found a fun present though so much so I found a fun present though so much so I found a fun way to do that is just to put a Google way to do that is just to put a Google way to do that is just to put a Google document out there and they say everyone document out there and they say everyone document out there and they say everyone put your ideas on this piece of paper put your ideas on this piece of paper put your ideas on this piece of paper and then I'm and so when you come to the and then I'm and so when you come to the and then I'm and so when you come to the meeting I don't know if ID at number two meeting I don't know if ID at number two meeting I don't know if ID at number two was a right right right right okay and was a right right right right okay and was a right right right right okay and and so everyone gets to evaluate the and so everyone gets to evaluate the and so everyone gets to evaluate the idea on the merit of the idea not the idea on the merit of the idea not the idea on the merit of the idea not the originator of the idea yeah that's cool originator of the idea yeah that's cool originator of the idea yeah that's cool on the family ministry you know peace on the family ministry you know peace on the family ministry you know peace one thing I've done over the years is one thing I've done over the years is one thing I've done over the years is try to watch I've said in a lot of try to watch I've said in a lot of try to watch I've said in a lot of environment that I think some of the environment that I think some of the environment that I think some of the most creative people in church most creative people in church most creative people in church leadership are the folks leading within leadership are the folks leading within leadership are the folks leading within created within family ministry they do created within family ministry they do created within family ministry they do incredible work and I know over the incredible work and I know over the incredible work and I know over the years trying to even watch what's years trying to even watch what's years trying to even watch what's happening there and say hey is there happening there and say hey is there happening there and say hey is there stuff that's happening there that we can stuff that's happening there that we can stuff that's happening there that we can pull in to our onto main stage which is pull in to our onto main stage which is pull in to our onto main stage which is a way to honor that environment and a way to honor that environment and a way to honor that environment and wholly-owned create that kind of you wholly-owned create that kind of you wholly-owned create that kind of you know environment where you're like hey know environment where you're like hey know environment where you're like hey we actually do respect what's happening we actually do respect what's happening we actually do respect what's happening here you may it could go the other way here you may it could go the other way here you may it could go the other way we're like eight we're going to try some we're like eight we're going to try some we're like eight we're going to try some stuff here that you know we wouldn't stuff here that you know we wouldn't stuff here that you know we wouldn't necessarily you know we wouldn't let you necessarily you know we wouldn't let you necessarily you know we wouldn't let you know wouldn't allow happen yeah that's know wouldn't allow happen yeah that's know wouldn't allow happen yeah that's that's good you know there you know I that's good you know there you know I that's good you know there you know I think particularly to on this idea of think particularly to on this idea of think particularly to on this idea of you know leaders can sometimes they you know leaders can sometimes they you know leaders can sometimes they don't understand most leaders don't don't understand most leaders don't don't understand most leaders don't understand the weight that their words understand the weight that their words understand the weight that their words have you know i was just talking to a have you know i was just talking to a have you know i was just talking to a pastor the screen coo is like you know pastor the screen coo is like you know pastor the screen coo is like you know our senior guy came in and just our senior guy came in and just our senior guy came in and just literally happen to walk through the literally happen to walk through the literally happen to walk through the office and was like hey i think we office and was like hey i think we office and was like hey i think we should put a table here and like should put a table here and like should put a table here and like you know and it was and just and then you know and it was and just and then you know and it was and just and then just kept walking on like it was just so just kept walking on like it was just so just kept walking on like it was just so it was kind of a passing comment well it was kind of a passing comment well it was kind of a passing comment well the this happened to be kind of an the this happened to be kind of an the this happened to be kind of an administrative area where there was all administrative area where there was all administrative area where there was all these administrators death and so they these administrators death and so they these administrators death and so they scrambled for like a day to like get a scrambled for like a day to like get a scrambled for like a day to like get a table we're putting in here we're figure

table we're putting in here we're figure table we're putting in here we're figure trying to figure all that out and then trying to figure all that out and then trying to figure all that out and then you know as you can imagine what you know as you can imagine what you know as you can imagine what happened to see here I came back a happened to see here I came back a happened to see here I came back a little was back in that area you know little was back in that area you know little was back in that area you know about a week later and was like why about a week later and was like why about a week later and was like why don't we put a table here but instead of don't we put a table here but instead of don't we put a table here but instead of fasting you said you said it you were fasting you said you said it you were fasting you said you said it you were the one that said it oh yeah right right the one that said it oh yeah right right the one that said it oh yeah right right right I didn't you know I see that right I didn't you know I see that right I didn't you know I see that that's fun now what I how do you kind of that's fun now what I how do you kind of that's fun now what I how do you kind of keep creative folks that work with you keep creative folks that work with you keep creative folks that work with you sharp what are you doing to you know sharp what are you doing to you know sharp what are you doing to you know keep them because i think you know I've keep them because i think you know I've keep them because i think you know I've been in those meetings where you know been in those meetings where you know been in those meetings where you know we're kind of you know we're trying to we're kind of you know we're trying to we're kind of you know we're trying to pull together you know ideas and it's pull together you know ideas and it's pull together you know ideas and it's like just everything feels like a wet like just everything feels like a wet like just everything feels like a wet noodle like it's just we're just not noodle like it's just we're just not noodle like it's just we're just not getting stuff that's pushing the getting stuff that's pushing the getting stuff that's pushing the envelope how how are you selling envelope how how are you selling envelope how how are you selling creatives do that one of the ways is I creatives do that one of the ways is I creatives do that one of the ways is I will I don't allow side hustles I will I don't allow side hustles I will I don't allow side hustles I encourage them hmm and so that yeah so I encourage them hmm and so that yeah so I encourage them hmm and so that yeah so I don't don't allow you know they I kind don't don't allow you know they I kind don't don't allow you know they I kind of owe you to do creative things on the of owe you to do creative things on the of owe you to do creative things on the side not encourage your creatives to do side not encourage your creatives to do side not encourage your creatives to do things on the side yeah because the things on the side yeah because the things on the side yeah because the creative mind does not shut off at 5pm creative mind does not shut off at 5pm creative mind does not shut off at 5pm right doesn't start at 9am it goes right doesn't start at 9am it goes right doesn't start at 9am it goes throughout the course of the day and if throughout the course of the day and if throughout the course of the day and if you have a culture at which you say the you have a culture at which you say the you have a culture at which you say the only creativity that we really want you only creativity that we really want you only creativity that we really want you doing is here it's on brand it's on site doing is here it's on brand it's on site doing is here it's on brand it's on site and you have no other outlets for that and you have no other outlets for that and you have no other outlets for that then they're creative funnel will really then they're creative funnel will really then they're creative funnel will really narrow down to what the experience what narrow down to what the experience what narrow down to what the experience what they produce and then what they bring to they produce and then what they bring to they produce and then what they bring to the table has drastically reduced as the table has drastically reduced as the table has drastically reduced as well sometimes it's as tough as a leader well sometimes it's as tough as a leader well sometimes it's as tough as a leader think oh gotcha this this guy does think oh gotcha this this guy does think oh gotcha this this guy does wedding videos on a Saturday other

wedding videos on a Saturday other wedding videos on a Saturday other Google takes portraits in Oakland Google takes portraits in Oakland Google takes portraits in Oakland ography or whatever it might be I don't ography or whatever it might be I don't ography or whatever it might be I don't want them to do that because that's want them to do that because that's want them to do that because that's infringing on what they're able to do in infringing on what they're able to do in infringing on what they're able to do in their 40 45 50 hour work week here I their 40 45 50 hour work week here I their 40 45 50 hour work week here I would argue the opposite i would say would argue the opposite i would say would argue the opposite i would say your ability to encourage that again your ability to encourage that again your ability to encourage that again within boundaries so they can still within boundaries so they can still within boundaries so they can still execute and do their job well I'm site execute and do their job well I'm site execute and do their job well I'm site that if I'm infringing on that but that that if I'm infringing on that but that that if I'm infringing on that but that will spark their creativity and help will spark their creativity and help will spark their creativity and help them bring a lot more to the table in them bring a lot more to the table in them bring a lot more to the table in terms of what they're exposed to and terms of what they're exposed to and terms of what they're exposed to and this sharpen their skills sharpens their this sharpen their skills sharpens their this sharpen their skills sharpens their skill set it's kind of like a skill set it's kind of like a skill set it's kind of like a cross-pollination cross training when cross-pollination cross training when cross-pollination cross training when you encourage that side hustle outside you encourage that side hustle outside you encourage that side hustle outside of your their regular work hours what of your their regular work hours what of your their regular work hours what kind of framework are you putting around kind of framework are you putting around kind of framework are you putting around that because I think they're you know that because I think they're you know that because I think they're you know there may be some executive pastor there may be some executive pastor there may be some executive pastor listening in today that are like well listening in today that are like well listening in today that are like well wait a second I'm not sure I want our wait a second I'm not sure I want our wait a second I'm not sure I want our creative guys out doing graphic design creative guys out doing graphic design creative guys out doing graphic design for other people let's say it's a for other people let's say it's a for other people let's say it's a graphic designer because what like graphic designer because what like graphic designer because what like they're not getting everything done that they're not getting everything done that they're not getting everything done that we need done for our stuff so why would we need done for our stuff so why would we need done for our stuff so why would I allow that person or aren't or even I allow that person or aren't or even I allow that person or aren't or even encourage that person so how do you kind encourage that person so how do you kind encourage that person so how do you kind of frame that up for folks yeah so one of frame that up for folks yeah so one of frame that up for folks yeah so one of the couple principles that I try to of the couple principles that I try to of the couple principles that I try to apply with the creatives that I lead is apply with the creatives that I lead is apply with the creatives that I lead is first of all make sure that you hit home first of all make sure that you hit home first of all make sure that you hit home run here before you start swinging it run here before you start swinging it run here before you start swinging it back somewhere else so if your work is back somewhere else so if your work is back somewhere else so if your work is is questionable subpar there's a number is questionable subpar there's a number is questionable subpar there's a number of areas of growth that you haven't made of areas of growth that you haven't made of areas of growth that you haven't made headway on then I would say you really headway on then I would say you really headway on then I would say you really should just in terms of like best work should just in terms of like best work should just in terms of like best work practices make sure that your excelling practices make sure that your excelling practices make sure that your excelling here before you start trying to excel here before you start trying to excel here before you start trying to excel somewhere else on top of that the other somewhere else on top of that the other somewhere else on top of that the other thing too is just being really clear thing too is just being really clear thing too is just being really clear with boundaries but hey when you're your with boundaries but hey when you're your with boundaries but hey when you're your work hours you're doing work right and

work hours you're doing work right and work hours you're doing work right and you know this kind of beam it like no you know this kind of beam it like no you know this kind of beam it like no whiff of you working in that side hustle whiff of you working in that side hustle whiff of you working in that side hustle during work hours here those are those during work hours here those are those during work hours here those are those are like to like clear boundaries that I are like to like clear boundaries that I are like to like clear boundaries that I try to have that there's obvious like try to have that there's obvious like try to have that there's obvious like obviously I was the best practice as obviously I was the best practice as obviously I was the best practice as well but interesting that you do outside well but interesting that you do outside well but interesting that you do outside of this also reflects on the church so of this also reflects on the church so of this also reflects on the church so if it's that that questionable nightclub if it's that that questionable nightclub if it's that that questionable nightclub that you're going to create the poop that you're going to create the poop that you're going to create the poop poster for maybe you don't want your poster for maybe you don't want your poster for maybe you don't want your name attached like that because our name attached like that because our name attached like that because our names going to get attached from that names going to get attached from that names going to get attached from that subsequently as well and you know within subsequently as well and you know within subsequently as well and you know within our world is a wide spectrum of projects our world is a wide spectrum of projects our world is a wide spectrum of projects that you could do and there's like some that you could do and there's like some that you could do and there's like some stuff that okay maybe it's maybe it's stuff that okay maybe it's maybe it's stuff that okay maybe it's maybe it's not best for me that to do this project not best for me that to do this project not best for me that to do this project right because they could have some some right because they could have some some right because they could have some some sideways energy for the church yeah very sideways energy for the church yeah very sideways energy for the church yeah very cool you know one of the things that if cool you know one of the things that if cool you know one of the things that if I my executor listening and today I I my executor listening and today I I my executor listening and today I might be wondering you know how do I might be wondering you know how do I might be wondering you know how do I give feedback to the creative folks in give feedback to the creative folks in give feedback to the creative folks in my church you know I know there are I my church you know I know there are I my church you know I know there are I know pastor struggle with that because know pastor struggle with that because know pastor struggle with that because there again there's it gets back to that there again there's it gets back to that there again there's it gets back to that you know not helpful trope of like I you know not helpful trope of like I you know not helpful trope of like I just want to throw stuff in at the just want to throw stuff in at the just want to throw stuff in at the creatives and then Stan and then get out creatives and then Stan and then get out creatives and then Stan and then get out of the way because I'm not sure what's of the way because I'm not sure what's of the way because I'm not sure what's going to happen but can you give us some going to happen but can you give us some going to happen but can you give us some advice some practical help on how do we advice some practical help on how do we advice some practical help on how do we actually give feedback to the creative actually give feedback to the creative actually give feedback to the creative folks in our environment folks in our environment folks in our environment that's a great best a great question is that's a great best a great question is that's a great best a great question is two things that say first of all I'd say two things that say first of all I'd say two things that say first of all I'd say make sure that you give particular make sure that you give particular make sure that you give particular praise that's the first thing so it praise that's the first thing so it praise that's the first thing so it seems apparent that you know like hey seems apparent that you know like hey seems apparent that you know like hey everyone prize off praise especially everyone prize off praise especially everyone prize off praise especially creatives that they put forth this is creatives that they put forth this is creatives that they put forth this is their work and they put forth and if their work and they put forth and if their work and they put forth and if they don't hear any response how you they don't hear any response how you they don't hear any response how you received it how the audience received it

received it how the audience received it received it how the audience received it then they have no idea of whether or not then they have no idea of whether or not then they have no idea of whether or not they're succeeding so first of all give they're succeeding so first of all give they're succeeding so first of all give them praise but beyond that given them praise but beyond that given them praise but beyond that given particular praise I remember this one particular praise I remember this one particular praise I remember this one time I was working with an actor was in time I was working with an actor was in time I was working with an actor was in with Chicago he was working within the with Chicago he was working within the with Chicago he was working within the church and you know he did a church and you know he did a church and you know he did a professionally work you know volunteers professionally work you know volunteers professionally work you know volunteers to the church and it came off stage one to the church and it came off stage one to the church and it came off stage one time and he said I said hey good job and time and he said I said hey good job and time and he said I said hey good job and he said have so hmm and I had a blank he said have so hmm and I had a blank he said have so hmm and I had a blank stare at I said all of it yeah to which stare at I said all of it yeah to which stare at I said all of it yeah to which he said general praise means nothing he said general praise means nothing he said general praise means nothing particular praising everything to an particular praising everything to an particular praising everything to an artist to get when you good general artist to get when you good general artist to get when you good general price it means if you're doing one of price it means if you're doing one of price it means if you're doing one of these attaboy I'm patting you on the these attaboy I'm patting you on the these attaboy I'm patting you on the back as I feel you need it but I didn't back as I feel you need it but I didn't back as I feel you need it but I didn't really pay attention to the work that really pay attention to the work that really pay attention to the work that you did because I can't pull anything you did because I can't pull anything you did because I can't pull anything from it so making sure you give praise from it so making sure you give praise from it so making sure you give praise give particular praise and then the give particular praise and then the give particular praise and then the other thing has really helpful for an other thing has really helpful for an other thing has really helpful for an artist is because it's so subjective you artist is because it's so subjective you artist is because it's so subjective you need to have some type of like need to have some type of like need to have some type of like consistent review process the way we do consistent review process the way we do consistent review process the way we do that at liquid is we kind of like four that at liquid is we kind of like four that at liquid is we kind of like four spectrums that we four criteria that we spectrums that we four criteria that we spectrums that we four criteria that we give for for feedback now the first one give for for feedback now the first one give for for feedback now the first one is priced hey you did this well the is priced hey you did this well the is priced hey you did this well the second one is will give I'm suggestion second one is will give I'm suggestion second one is will give I'm suggestion hey this is Taylor leave it's 5050 it's hey this is Taylor leave it's 5050 it's hey this is Taylor leave it's 5050 it's good your way I have an idea but it's up good your way I have an idea but it's up good your way I have an idea but it's up you know either way it's fine the next you know either way it's fine the next you know either way it's fine the next one is requests and I don't like what one is requests and I don't like what one is requests and I don't like what you did there I would like you to change you did there I would like you to change you did there I would like you to change that and having the clarity between that and having the clarity between that and having the clarity between those two a suggestion or request this those two a suggestion or request this those two a suggestion or request this human and you'd like to talk to you human and you'd like to talk to you human and you'd like to talk to you about the executive pastor walking about the executive pastor walking about the executive pastor walking through usage the table is that a through usage the table is that a through usage the table is that a suggestion or request it's just suggestion or request it's just suggestion or request it's just suggesting I like the way it's set up suggesting I like the way it's set up suggesting I like the way it's set up I'm not going to change it if it's a I'm not going to change it if it's a I'm not going to change it if it's a request I'll do it right away Yeah right

request I'll do it right away Yeah right request I'll do it right away Yeah right right and then the last one is notes so right and then the last one is notes so right and then the last one is notes so hey for future I know you can't change hey for future I know you can't change hey for future I know you can't change it now on the horses left the barn but it now on the horses left the barn but it now on the horses left the barn but for the future they could to make sure for the future they could to make sure for the future they could to make sure the boom mic isn't in the shot right now the boom mic isn't in the shot right now the boom mic isn't in the shot right now we've harsh capture the bat hit rid of we've harsh capture the bat hit rid of we've harsh capture the bat hit rid of it at this point in the future it's best it at this point in the future it's best it at this point in the future it's best not to have in the shot so praise not to have in the shot so praise not to have in the shot so praise suggestion request and then notes for suggestion request and then notes for suggestion request and then notes for future that's very good that future that's very good that future that's very good that super helpful I hope you're listening to super helpful I hope you're listening to super helpful I hope you're listening to that because that I think that alone that because that I think that alone that because that I think that alone could be the Nugget you know today that could be the Nugget you know today that could be the Nugget you know today that people take away and apply as you you people take away and apply as you you people take away and apply as you you know you interact with you know with know you interact with you know with know you interact with you know with your folks you know what everything else your folks you know what everything else your folks you know what everything else you want to share you know how you with you want to share you know how you with you want to share you know how you with some people are listening in today some people are listening in today some people are listening in today before we pivot into the rest of the before we pivot into the rest of the before we pivot into the rest of the episode yeah you talk about workload episode yeah you talk about workload episode yeah you talk about workload before and that's a really great before and that's a really great before and that's a really great question so again how do you know as a question so again how do you know as a question so again how do you know as a lead pastor executive pastor how do you lead pastor executive pastor how do you lead pastor executive pastor how do you gauge how your cradles are doing the gauge how your cradles are doing the gauge how your cradles are doing the work environment for them one of the work environment for them one of the work environment for them one of the things i have found helpful is as you things i have found helpful is as you things i have found helpful is as you walk by your office sometimes it's hard walk by your office sometimes it's hard walk by your office sometimes it's hard to get a pulse a real good way to get a to get a pulse a real good way to get a to get a pulse a real good way to get a pulse on your creative atmosphere is how pulse on your creative atmosphere is how pulse on your creative atmosphere is how much music they listen to and how much much music they listen to and how much much music they listen to and how much laughing they're doing if you walk by laughing they're doing if you walk by laughing they're doing if you walk by every week and you don't hear any music every week and you don't hear any music every week and you don't hear any music playing from the office space or you playing from the office space or you playing from the office space or you don't anyone laughing they are creative don't anyone laughing they are creative don't anyone laughing they are creative people in so they're the noses to the people in so they're the noses to the people in so they're the noses to the grindstone and they're just in output grindstone and they're just in output grindstone and they're just in output mode all of it and so if you walk by and mode all of it and so if you walk by and mode all of it and so if you walk by and all you hear is music and all you hear all you hear is music and all you hear all you hear is music and all you hear is laughter that's probably not a good is laughter that's probably not a good is laughter that's probably not a good sign that is it right it's also not a sign that is it right it's also not a sign that is it right it's also not a good son so you that has engaged in good son so you that has engaged in good son so you that has engaged in terms of how much work you've given them terms of how much work you've given them terms of how much work you've given them and if you're overworking or under and if you're overworking or under and if you're overworking or under working yes is the unset Maneri podcast working yes is the unset Maneri podcast working yes is the unset Maneri podcast stuff you wish they taught in seminary

stuff you wish they taught in seminary stuff you wish they taught in seminary well we're going to jump into the well we're going to jump into the well we're going to jump into the lightning round that part of the episode lightning round that part of the episode lightning round that part of the episode where we ask similar questions of where we ask similar questions of where we ask similar questions of everybody that's on the show today we everybody that's on the show today we everybody that's on the show today we have been safely from liquid church in have been safely from liquid church in have been safely from liquid church in New Jersey so glad to have been you know New Jersey so glad to have been you know New Jersey so glad to have been you know on the show today what's an online on the show today what's an online on the show today what's an online resource that you're using today that's resource that you're using today that's resource that you're using today that's particularly helping in your ministry particularly helping in your ministry particularly helping in your ministry yeah so for our video teams we use an yeah so for our video teams we use an yeah so for our video teams we use an application called Webster the chance application called Webster the chance application called Webster the chance for them to put a video and they on a for them to put a video and they on a for them to put a video and they on a timeline and you not just watch it but timeline and you not just watch it but timeline and you not just watch it but on the timeline you get a chance to give on the timeline you get a chance to give on the timeline you get a chance to give feedback so if you have a video feedback so if you have a video feedback so if you have a video Department this is key so you don't just Department this is key so you don't just Department this is key so you don't just like getting you know the video you like getting you know the video you like getting you know the video you email responses someone else emails email responses someone else emails email responses someone else emails responses and there's no way to get responses and there's no way to get responses and there's no way to get everyone on the same page we're all everyone on the same page we're all everyone on the same page we're all talking to the same product whip stir talking to the same product whip stir talking to the same product whip stir wips ter allows you to do this you put a wips ter allows you to do this you put a wips ter allows you to do this you put a video there everyone all the people that video there everyone all the people that video there everyone all the people that you learn bite into the conversation and you learn bite into the conversation and you learn bite into the conversation and the people you don't want to invite are the people you don't want to invite are the people you don't want to invite are able to get access to it and then say able to get access to it and then say able to get access to it and then say what they need to be said and then the what they need to be said and then the what they need to be said and then the producer get that feedback and it goes producer get that feedback and it goes producer get that feedback and it goes from there yeah for us that's what we'll from there yeah for us that's what we'll from there yeah for us that's what we'll do it you know if you keep your speed do it you know if you keep your speed do it you know if you keep your speed back suggestion request praise note back suggestion request praise note back suggestion request praise note that's one another good app for that's one another good app for that's one another good app for our volunteer photographers is dropped our volunteer photographers is dropped our volunteer photographers is dropped to me okay so what we can do there is to me okay so what we can do there is to me okay so what we can do there is one just give them access to our dropbox one just give them access to our dropbox one just give them access to our dropbox account which can be cumbersome and big account which can be cumbersome and big account which can be cumbersome and big and confusing drop it to me you just and confusing drop it to me you just and confusing drop it to me you just send them a link you set up on the back send them a link you set up on the back send them a link you set up on the back end where you want your files to go in end where you want your files to go in end where you want your files to go in your dropbox structure you create a link your dropbox structure you create a link your dropbox structure you create a link from that you give that to them they set from that you give that to them they set from that you give that to them they set it up it makes it very easy on their end it up it makes it very easy on their end it up it makes it very easy on their end did you want to you want the pain and did you want to you want the pain and did you want to you want the pain and the frustration of organizing content the frustration of organizing content the frustration of organizing content from a staff for so staff perspective

from a staff for so staff perspective from a staff for so staff perspective you don't want to volunteer to do that you don't want to volunteer to do that you don't want to volunteer to do that or they're going to serve once and never or they're going to serve once and never or they're going to serve once and never again so you give that to them allows again so you give that to them allows again so you give that to them allows them to be the artist and the creative them to be the artist and the creative them to be the artist and the creative and you have someone on the admin side and you have someone on the admin side and you have someone on the admin side do the archiving and the structuring of do the archiving and the structuring of do the archiving and the structuring of that drop it to me allows that really that drop it to me allows that really that drop it to me allows that really well that's all right are there any well that's all right are there any well that's all right are there any books you've read in the last I don't books you've read in the last I don't books you've read in the last I don't know six months to a year that are know six months to a year that are know six months to a year that are shaping your thinking or ministry yeah shaping your thinking or ministry yeah shaping your thinking or ministry yeah the this recently went through crucial the this recently went through crucial the this recently went through crucial accountability I'm gonna have to look at accountability I'm gonna have to look at accountability I'm gonna have to look at the author's name it so Joseph granny the author's name it so Joseph granny the author's name it so Joseph granny but that was the first time I have gone but that was the first time I have gone but that was the first time I have gone through a book that systematically through a book that systematically through a book that systematically looked at how to call call someone to a looked at how to call call someone to a looked at how to call call someone to a high level of credibility and so just high level of credibility and so just high level of credibility and so just being passive aggressive with my being passive aggressive with my being passive aggressive with my leadership or confrontational and it's leadership or confrontational and it's leadership or confrontational and it's an aggressive it's hey how do we walk an aggressive it's hey how do we walk an aggressive it's hey how do we walk someone through that that's been really someone through that that's been really someone through that that's been really helpful the presentation secrets of helpful the presentation secrets of helpful the presentation secrets of Steve Jobs we're always presenting to Steve Jobs we're always presenting to Steve Jobs we're always presenting to each other we're always pitching Melling each other we're always pitching Melling each other we're always pitching Melling and the you know so how do you do that and the you know so how do you do that and the you know so how do you do that well and obviously he was master that well and obviously he was master that well and obviously he was master that making sure those are two books that making sure those are two books that making sure those are two books that I've read recently so very cool what's I've read recently so very cool what's I've read recently so very cool what's the ministry that you're looking at that the ministry that you're looking at that the ministry that you're looking at that inspires you mmm I like really like Jake inspires you mmm I like really like Jake inspires you mmm I like really like Jake krandle at Saddleback Church they he krandle at Saddleback Church they he krandle at Saddleback Church they he oversees use the online pastor there and oversees use the online pastor there and oversees use the online pastor there and they do an incredible job of funneling they do an incredible job of funneling they do an incredible job of funneling people from the from the crowd to the people from the from the crowd to the people from the from the crowd to the core they got a great model doing that I core they got a great model doing that I core they got a great model doing that I also oversee church online at liquid and also oversee church online at liquid and also oversee church online at liquid and that's something I'm we need to develop that's something I'm we need to develop that's something I'm we need to develop a little stronger they do that a little stronger they do that a little stronger they do that incredibly well look forward to that I incredibly well look forward to that I incredibly well look forward to that I love the creative scene at willow blade love the creative scene at willow blade love the creative scene at willow blade Blaine Hogan of neither the creative

Blaine Hogan of neither the creative Blaine Hogan of neither the creative lead regulator they have to do to job lead regulator they have to do to job lead regulator they have to do to job quill if you can get 15 minutes 15 quill if you can get 15 minutes 15 quill if you can get 15 minutes 15 minutes with any leader alive who would minutes with any leader alive who would minutes with any leader alive who would you want to get that with and why you want to get that with and why you want to get that with and why probably the guys that ticks are mom I probably the guys that ticks are mom I probably the guys that ticks are mom I just I love the and I just I love the and I just I love the and I much about the leadership but I know much about the leadership but I know much about the leadership but I know about the product I know but they're about the product I know but they're about the product I know but they're repeat successes over over the years repeat successes over over the years repeat successes over over the years over decades and that ability as a over decades and that ability as a over decades and that ability as a creative to have that sustainable it's creative to have that sustainable it's creative to have that sustainable it's easy kinda you know have something your easy kinda you know have something your easy kinda you know have something your manifesto your great american novel and manifesto your great american novel and manifesto your great american novel and then burn out and never have anything then burn out and never have anything then burn out and never have anything else but to repeatedly have that success else but to repeatedly have that success else but to repeatedly have that success they've kind of cracked them not there I they've kind of cracked them not there I they've kind of cracked them not there I don't know what it is what they put in don't know what it is what they put in don't know what it is what they put in the water but they're doing a great job the water but they're doing a great job the water but they're doing a great job very cool well I'm sure leading and I very cool well I'm sure leading and I very cool well I'm sure leading and I know leading at you know where you're at know leading at you know where you're at know leading at you know where you're at can be stressful and you know just be a can be stressful and you know just be a can be stressful and you know just be a lot going on what do you do for you know lot going on what do you do for you know lot going on what do you do for you know in your personal life just for fun when in your personal life just for fun when in your personal life just for fun when you want to kick back and relax yes I you want to kick back and relax yes I you want to kick back and relax yes I ride my motorcycle but I write it on 78 ride my motorcycle but I write it on 78 ride my motorcycle but I write it on 78 in New Jersey and so I don't know if in New Jersey and so I don't know if in New Jersey and so I don't know if that answers your questions for kind of that answers your questions for kind of that answers your questions for kind of on all you know yes a little more tense on all you know yes a little more tense on all you know yes a little more tense relationship to that but for me i'm relationship to that but for me i'm relationship to that but for me i'm probably coming home and just playing probably coming home and just playing probably coming home and just playing with my girls is probably the most with my girls is probably the most with my girls is probably the most relaxing thing i get to do in the course relaxing thing i get to do in the course relaxing thing i get to do in the course my week now you should people want to my week now you should people want to my week now you should people want to get in touch with you we talk because i get in touch with you we talk because i get in touch with you we talk because i know you've been doing some stuff online know you've been doing some stuff online know you've been doing some stuff online how can they how can they do that or if how can they how can they do that or if how can they how can they do that or if they want to get in touch with the they want to get in touch with the they want to get in touch with the church what's the best way to do that church what's the best way to do that church what's the best way to do that yeah hit me up in terms of church stuff yeah hit me up in terms of church stuff yeah hit me up in terms of church stuff at ben s at liquid church com I'd love at ben s at liquid church com I'd love at ben s at liquid church com I'd love to talk learn from you and pass on to talk learn from you and pass on to talk learn from you and pass on anything else I could and also anything else I could and also anything else I could and also additional teachings or communications additional teachings or communications additional teachings or communications i've done is that Ben stay please add i've done is that Ben stay please add i've done is that Ben stay please add dot info thanks so much been free to be

dot info thanks so much been free to be dot info thanks so much been free to be on the show today thank you thank you on the show today thank you thank you on the show today thank you thank you for tuning in to this week's unsung re for tuning in to this week's unsung re for tuning in to this week's unsung re podcast don't be shy we'd love to podcast don't be shy we'd love to podcast don't be shy we'd love to connect check out on seminary in box you connect check out on seminary in box you connect check out on seminary in box you can sign up at unsummon re calm and can sign up at unsummon re calm and can sign up at unsummon re calm and wilson you helpful training resources wilson you helpful training resources wilson you helpful training resources every week plus you'll gain immediate every week plus you'll gain immediate every week plus you'll gain immediate access to our exclusive members area access to our exclusive members area access to our exclusive members area with tons of resources you can use with tons of resources you can use with tons of resources you can use connect with rich on twitter at rich connect with rich on twitter at rich connect with rich on twitter at rich birch or through email rich a ton birch or through email rich a ton birch or through email rich a ton seminary top don't forget to check out seminary top don't forget to check out seminary top don't forget to check out the show notes for this episode a ton the show notes for this episode a ton the show notes for this episode a ton seminary calm it includes links to what seminary calm it includes links to what seminary calm it includes links to what we talked about today and more leave a we talked about today and more leave a we talked about today and more leave a comment we'd love to hear from you did comment we'd love to hear from you did comment we'd love to hear from you did you enjoy today's episode drop by itunes you enjoy today's episode drop by itunes you enjoy today's episode drop by itunes and leave a review thanks again for and leave a review thanks again for and leave a review thanks again for tuning in to this week's unsung re tuning in to this week's unsung re tuning in to this week's unsung re podcast join us next week when we'll podcast join us next week when we'll podcast join us next week when we'll learn more stuff we wish they taught in learn more stuff we wish they taught in learn more stuff we wish they taught in seminary