Ron Walborn provides help to leaders dealing with the pressures of today’s church.

welcome to the unseminary podcast are welcome to the unseminary podcast are you looking for practical ministry help you looking for practical ministry help you looking for practical ministry help to drive your ministry further faster to drive your ministry further faster to drive your ministry further faster have a sinking feeling that your have a sinking feeling that your have a sinking feeling that your ministry training didn't prepare you for ministry training didn't prepare you for ministry training didn't prepare you for the real world hey you're not alone join the real world hey you're not alone join the real world hey you're not alone join thousands of others in pursuit of stuff thousands of others in pursuit of stuff thousands of others in pursuit of stuff that we wish they had taught in seminary that we wish they had taught in seminary that we wish they had taught in seminary buckle up and let's get started with buckle up and let's get started with buckle up and let's get started with this week's unseminary podcast this week's unseminary podcast this week's unseminary podcast alright well welcome to the unseminary alright well welcome to the unseminary alright well welcome to the unseminary podcast my name is rich burch the host podcast my name is rich burch the host podcast my name is rich burch the host around these parts super excited today around these parts super excited today around these parts super excited today because we have an actual seminary because we have an actual seminary because we have an actual seminary leader today leader today leader today in uh dr ron walbourn the uh the the in uh dr ron walbourn the uh the the in uh dr ron walbourn the uh the the dean at ats alliance theological dean at ats alliance theological dean at ats alliance theological seminary in nyack new york great school seminary in nyack new york great school seminary in nyack new york great school uh super excited to engage in this uh super excited to engage in this uh super excited to engage in this conversation with you today uh ron conversation with you today uh ron conversation with you today uh ron welcome to the show welcome to the show welcome to the show thank you and it's appropriate because thank you and it's appropriate because thank you and it's appropriate because i'm like the most unseminary dean that's i'm like the most unseminary dean that's i'm like the most unseminary dean that's ever existed nice wow we're kindred ever existed nice wow we're kindred ever existed nice wow we're kindred spirits then spirits then spirits then that's a great uh you know that's a that's a great uh you know that's a that's a great uh you know that's a great thing well um why don't you start great thing well um why don't you start great thing well um why don't you start by giving us a sense of you know tell us by giving us a sense of you know tell us by giving us a sense of you know tell us a little bit about you know ats and your a little bit about you know ats and your a little bit about you know ats and your role and you know how does that work role and you know how does that work role and you know how does that work tell us about your school tell us about your school tell us about your school um um um alliance theological seminary has a alliance theological seminary has a alliance theological seminary has a great history great history great history and it started by missionaries it's uh and it started by missionaries it's uh and it started by missionaries it's uh there were some missionaries who were there were some missionaries who were there were some missionaries who were anthropologists they came back in 1960 anthropologists they came back in 1960 anthropologists they came back in 1960 and they said uh we need a place to and they said uh we need a place to and they said uh we need a place to train people that are going to go train people that are going to go train people that are going to go cross-cultural that are going to go cross-cultural that are going to go cross-cultural that are going to go overseas get them certainly more overseas get them certainly more overseas get them certainly more theology but theology in a way that they theology but theology in a way that they theology but theology in a way that they can contextualize it to the culture can contextualize it to the culture can contextualize it to the culture they're going to and so our seminary was they're going to and so our seminary was they're going to and so our seminary was started as a missionary training school started as a missionary training school started as a missionary training school it was initially known as jaffrey school it was initially known as jaffrey school it was initially known as jaffrey school of mission named after a great

of mission named after a great of mission named after a great missionary robert jaffrey and then missionary robert jaffrey and then missionary robert jaffrey and then became alliance school of theology and became alliance school of theology and became alliance school of theology and mission they added a little more mission they added a little more mission they added a little more theology and eventually morphed into a theology and eventually morphed into a theology and eventually morphed into a seminary but we've kept that dna seminary but we've kept that dna seminary but we've kept that dna of integration of integration of integration when you come to ats you do get some when you come to ats you do get some when you come to ats you do get some traditional theological education traditional theological education traditional theological education but you're getting a lot of anthropology but you're getting a lot of anthropology but you're getting a lot of anthropology a lot of psychology a lot of integration a lot of psychology a lot of integration a lot of psychology a lot of integration so that you know we want to put people so that you know we want to put people so that you know we want to put people out that know out that know out that know uh how to minister on wall street and uh how to minister on wall street and uh how to minister on wall street and main street as easily as church street main street as easily as church street main street as easily as church street and and and and so there's a heavy emphasis on that and so there's a heavy emphasis on that and so there's a heavy emphasis on that kind of integration uh when i went here kind of integration uh when i went here kind of integration uh when i went here back in the 80s uh i was training to be back in the 80s uh i was training to be back in the 80s uh i was training to be a missionary in guinea west africa okay a missionary in guinea west africa okay a missionary in guinea west africa okay wow and in my last year god called my wow and in my last year god called my wow and in my last year god called my wife and i to stay in the u.s and i wife and i to stay in the u.s and i wife and i to stay in the u.s and i thought oh great i wasted my seminary thought oh great i wasted my seminary thought oh great i wasted my seminary and i studied contextual theology and and i studied contextual theology and and i studied contextual theology and pluralism can't apply that anywhere oh pluralism can't apply that anywhere oh pluralism can't apply that anywhere oh well well well come to find out it prepared me come to find out it prepared me come to find out it prepared me perfectly for ministry in north america perfectly for ministry in north america perfectly for ministry in north america so so that and a heavy emphasis on so so that and a heavy emphasis on so so that and a heavy emphasis on spiritual formation right uh one of our spiritual formation right uh one of our spiritual formation right uh one of our profs like this likes to say we don't profs like this likes to say we don't profs like this likes to say we don't want to graduate brains on sticks want to graduate brains on sticks want to graduate brains on sticks at alliance we want to make sure we at alliance we want to make sure we at alliance we want to make sure we develop their heart as well as their develop their heart as well as their develop their heart as well as their head head head so wow so now why don't we dig into that so wow so now why don't we dig into that so wow so now why don't we dig into that a little bit what is it that um you know a little bit what is it that um you know a little bit what is it that um you know you're doing to ensure um you know you're doing to ensure um you know you're doing to ensure um you know within your institution um and then within your institution um and then within your institution um and then maybe even just for pastors you know out maybe even just for pastors you know out maybe even just for pastors you know out in the field um so they're not just in the field um so they're not just in the field um so they're not just brains on sticks not just people that brains on sticks not just people that brains on sticks not just people that can you know do quote great theology um can you know do quote great theology um can you know do quote great theology um but you know our their souls are being but you know our their souls are being but you know our their souls are being cared for yeah yeah cared for yeah yeah cared for yeah yeah um well we in our curriculum let's stay

um well we in our curriculum let's stay um well we in our curriculum let's stay with our master of divinity curriculum with our master of divinity curriculum with our master of divinity curriculum uh because that's the three-year program uh because that's the three-year program uh because that's the three-year program uh in every year they have to do uh in every year they have to do uh in every year they have to do spiritual formation intentional spiritual formation intentional spiritual formation intentional spiritual formation and so when they spiritual formation and so when they spiritual formation and so when they come in the first year that is come in the first year that is come in the first year that is an initiation the spiritual formation an initiation the spiritual formation an initiation the spiritual formation course where there's a lot of uh entry course where there's a lot of uh entry course where there's a lot of uh entry level kind of training on basic level kind of training on basic level kind of training on basic spiritual formation a lot of inventories spiritual formation a lot of inventories spiritual formation a lot of inventories uh we do what's called an mmpi two test uh we do what's called an mmpi two test uh we do what's called an mmpi two test which basically compares them with other which basically compares them with other which basically compares them with other seminary students and raises issues of seminary students and raises issues of seminary students and raises issues of pathology pathology pathology and so i meet with them early on and we and so i meet with them early on and we and so i meet with them early on and we get them into counseling if they need get them into counseling if they need get them into counseling if they need counseling a lot of just a lot of counseling a lot of just a lot of counseling a lot of just a lot of dysfunctional people come to seminary dysfunctional people come to seminary dysfunctional people come to seminary absolutely and so one of the things our absolutely and so one of the things our absolutely and so one of the things our first spiritual formation class does is first spiritual formation class does is first spiritual formation class does is kind of raises those issues early on so kind of raises those issues early on so kind of raises those issues early on so that we can get them the help they need that we can get them the help they need that we can get them the help they need and then the second cycle of spiritual and then the second cycle of spiritual and then the second cycle of spiritual formation i teach that course it's formation i teach that course it's formation i teach that course it's basically a foundations in life and basically a foundations in life and basically a foundations in life and ministry and we cover a lot of stuff in ministry and we cover a lot of stuff in ministry and we cover a lot of stuff in there there's also required counseling there there's also required counseling there there's also required counseling as part of that as part of that as part of that and and we'll talk about that a little and and we'll talk about that a little and and we'll talk about that a little deeper when we talk about different deeper when we talk about different deeper when we talk about different tools and then we have a capstone course tools and then we have a capstone course tools and then we have a capstone course in their third year in their third year in their third year that kind of summarizes everything that kind of summarizes everything that kind of summarizes everything together that they've learned during the together that they've learned during the together that they've learned during the three years and along the three years three years and along the three years three years and along the three years there's constant mentoring with there's constant mentoring with there's constant mentoring with spiritual directors spiritual directors spiritual directors you're providing a spiritual director you're providing a spiritual director you're providing a spiritual director piece in there yeah yeah right alongside piece in there yeah yeah right alongside piece in there yeah yeah right alongside so you know we're trying to get it in a so you know we're trying to get it in a so you know we're trying to get it in a very holistic way we've got the very holistic way we've got the very holistic way we've got the spiritual directors we've got the spiritual directors we've got the spiritual directors we've got the counseling available for them while counseling available for them while counseling available for them while they're students here there's no charge

they're students here there's no charge they're students here there's no charge for counseling we have a counseling for counseling we have a counseling for counseling we have a counseling center and they can even come with their center and they can even come with their center and they can even come with their wives with their husbands with their wives with their husbands with their wives with their husbands with their children uh we allow them to do children uh we allow them to do children uh we allow them to do uh any type of counseling they need free uh any type of counseling they need free uh any type of counseling they need free of charge through our counseling center of charge through our counseling center of charge through our counseling center now that seems really progressive i i now that seems really progressive i i now that seems really progressive i i don't i don't think i've ever heard of don't i don't think i've ever heard of don't i don't think i've ever heard of that sort of thing provided by that sort of thing provided by that sort of thing provided by seminaries is is or is that is that if i seminaries is is or is that is that if i seminaries is is or is that is that if i just been on a seven or two long to know just been on a seven or two long to know just been on a seven or two long to know about that well no it is relatively new about that well no it is relatively new about that well no it is relatively new i think what helped us is uh one of our i think what helped us is uh one of our i think what helped us is uh one of our early professors at alliance early professors at alliance early professors at alliance was a guy named um craig ellison and he was a guy named um craig ellison and he was a guy named um craig ellison and he started a counseling school that we're started a counseling school that we're started a counseling school that we're still connected with it's the alliance still connected with it's the alliance still connected with it's the alliance graduate school of counseling and so and so it's not just theology but it's and so it's not just theology but it's anthropology for the mission's emphasis anthropology for the mission's emphasis anthropology for the mission's emphasis it's sociology but it's also it's sociology but it's also it's sociology but it's also you know holistic psychology the best of you know holistic psychology the best of you know holistic psychology the best of christian counseling as well christian counseling as well christian counseling as well and so we've we're doing everything we and so we've we're doing everything we and so we've we're doing everything we can to keep that integration happening can to keep that integration happening can to keep that integration happening absolutely absolutely you know the absolutely absolutely you know the absolutely absolutely you know the pressures when people get out into pressures when people get out into pressures when people get out into into the real world can be really tough into the real world can be really tough into the real world can be really tough for sure so what about you know kind of for sure so what about you know kind of for sure so what about you know kind of ongoing training and development you ongoing training and development you ongoing training and development you know for for for church leaders you know know for for for church leaders you know know for for for church leaders you know does does ats do that kind of work too does does ats do that kind of work too does does ats do that kind of work too uh we actually do um more and more what uh we actually do um more and more what uh we actually do um more and more what we're doing is opening up our doctor of we're doing is opening up our doctor of we're doing is opening up our doctor of ministry classes that if somebody wants ministry classes that if somebody wants ministry classes that if somebody wants to come in and audit they can come in to come in and audit they can come in to come in and audit they can come in and sit through a close course with and sit through a close course with and sit through a close course with you know sherwood lingenfelter who's out you know sherwood lingenfelter who's out you know sherwood lingenfelter who's out at talbot fuller comes in and he's one at talbot fuller comes in and he's one at talbot fuller comes in and he's one of our doctoral uh profs uh david of our doctoral uh profs uh david of our doctoral uh profs uh david ireland from montclair comes up and does ireland from montclair comes up and does ireland from montclair comes up and does a course on culture transformation and

a course on culture transformation and a course on culture transformation and martin sanders and myself do renewal martin sanders and myself do renewal martin sanders and myself do renewal weekends not just here at the seminary weekends not just here at the seminary weekends not just here at the seminary but we'll go out into churches and do but we'll go out into churches and do but we'll go out into churches and do weekends on spiritual renewal and weekends on spiritual renewal and weekends on spiritual renewal and spiritual formation spiritual formation spiritual formation and so uh there's a lot of resources and so uh there's a lot of resources and so uh there's a lot of resources that we make available to the local that we make available to the local that we make available to the local church church church so not only inviting them in but our so not only inviting them in but our so not only inviting them in but our professors going out right so very cool professors going out right so very cool professors going out right so very cool yeah well if you were you know there's yeah well if you were you know there's yeah well if you were you know there's you know there'll be you know hundreds you know there'll be you know hundreds you know there'll be you know hundreds of church leaders listening in today if of church leaders listening in today if of church leaders listening in today if you were gonna offer them some uh you you were gonna offer them some uh you you were gonna offer them some uh you know some pastoral guidance um you know know some pastoral guidance um you know know some pastoral guidance um you know some some some um kind of next steps even on the you um kind of next steps even on the you um kind of next steps even on the you know spiritual formation front i realize know spiritual formation front i realize know spiritual formation front i realize this is not a great format for that it's this is not a great format for that it's this is not a great format for that it's a you know just an interview what would a you know just an interview what would a you know just an interview what would you know what would you suggest some you know what would you suggest some you know what would you suggest some things they should be thinking about as things they should be thinking about as things they should be thinking about as they you know think about those issues they you know think about those issues they you know think about those issues um um um this is going to sound like it's coming this is going to sound like it's coming this is going to sound like it's coming out of left field yeah but i really out of left field yeah but i really out of left field yeah but i really believe that one of the things pastors believe that one of the things pastors believe that one of the things pastors have to grab onto is the concept of have to grab onto is the concept of have to grab onto is the concept of grieving grieving grieving i i don't think we grieve our loss as i i don't think we grieve our loss as i i don't think we grieve our loss as well well well and i think that that handicaps a lot of and i think that that handicaps a lot of and i think that that handicaps a lot of pastors in pastors in pastors in embracing next steps uh in terms of embracing next steps uh in terms of embracing next steps uh in terms of spiritual formation uh and loss isn't spiritual formation uh and loss isn't spiritual formation uh and loss isn't just the loss of a loved one it's not just the loss of a loved one it's not just the loss of a loved one it's not just death just death just death it's when your dreams begin to get it's when your dreams begin to get it's when your dreams begin to get picked off it's when your vision for picked off it's when your vision for picked off it's when your vision for ministry begins to get sabotaged it's ministry begins to get sabotaged it's ministry begins to get sabotaged it's when friends betray you when friends betray you when friends betray you and i find so many pastors they don't and i find so many pastors they don't and i find so many pastors they don't allow themselves to grieve adequately allow themselves to grieve adequately allow themselves to grieve adequately and well and what happens they begin to and well and what happens they begin to and well and what happens they begin to live reactively instead of proactively

live reactively instead of proactively live reactively instead of proactively the margin in their life gets filled up the margin in their life gets filled up the margin in their life gets filled up with hurt and pain with hurt and pain with hurt and pain and so what i advocate when i go out and and so what i advocate when i go out and and so what i advocate when i go out and speak to pastors is that grieving needs speak to pastors is that grieving needs speak to pastors is that grieving needs to be a regular part of their spiritual to be a regular part of their spiritual to be a regular part of their spiritual formation process in fact i think it's formation process in fact i think it's formation process in fact i think it's it should be part of the shabbat the it should be part of the shabbat the it should be part of the shabbat the sabbath rest where at the end of every sabbath rest where at the end of every sabbath rest where at the end of every week we pause and we certainly thank god week we pause and we certainly thank god week we pause and we certainly thank god for the victories for the victories for the victories but then we take some time to journal but then we take some time to journal but then we take some time to journal and process and maybe we need to process and process and maybe we need to process and process and maybe we need to process with another safe person with another safe person with another safe person the losses that we've gone through this the losses that we've gone through this the losses that we've gone through this week and when you do that well when you week and when you do that well when you week and when you do that well when you grieve well jesus said blessed are those grieve well jesus said blessed are those grieve well jesus said blessed are those who mourn for they will be comforted who mourn for they will be comforted who mourn for they will be comforted there's a comfort that comes there's a comfort that comes there's a comfort that comes pastors can leave stuff behind to pastors can leave stuff behind to pastors can leave stuff behind to embrace what's coming next it allows you embrace what's coming next it allows you embrace what's coming next it allows you to embrace the next season rather than to embrace the next season rather than to embrace the next season rather than live out of the past live out of the past live out of the past and i i think i found over the last 15 and i i think i found over the last 15 and i i think i found over the last 15 years that that is one of the key pieces years that that is one of the key pieces years that that is one of the key pieces for pastors uh i've actually done uh i'm for pastors uh i've actually done uh i'm for pastors uh i've actually done uh i'm not trying to sell my own videos video not trying to sell my own videos video not trying to sell my own videos video seriously right but i do have a a six um seriously right but i do have a a six um seriously right but i do have a a six um session series on spiritual formation uh session series on spiritual formation uh session series on spiritual formation uh we deal with the discipline of honesty we deal with the discipline of honesty we deal with the discipline of honesty we deal with bounded set centered set we deal with bounded set centered set we deal with bounded set centered set which is kind of legalism religious which is kind of legalism religious which is kind of legalism religious spirit stuff that that kills our faith spirit stuff that that kills our faith spirit stuff that that kills our faith uh we deal with greeting uh we deal with greeting uh we deal with greeting and and and it's six sessions it comes in a um a dvd it's six sessions it comes in a um a dvd it's six sessions it comes in a um a dvd series with uh books for people it's series with uh books for people it's series with uh books for people it's designed for small groups designed for small groups designed for small groups so so so so if they contact me at the seminary i so if they contact me at the seminary i so if they contact me at the seminary i can put them in touch with where they can put them in touch with where they can put them in touch with where they can get that through my production can get that through my production can get that through my production company okay so it's just a resource company okay so it's just a resource company okay so it's just a resource yeah that's very cool now you know what

yeah that's very cool now you know what yeah that's very cool now you know what would you suggest to you know even would you suggest to you know even would you suggest to you know even something you said there um there's a something you said there um there's a something you said there um there's a lot of solo pastors who listen to the lot of solo pastors who listen to the lot of solo pastors who listen to the show and they show and they show and they you know they carry a lot with them they you know they carry a lot with them they you know they carry a lot with them they go home at night and they don't really go home at night and they don't really go home at night and they don't really want to unload on their spouse because want to unload on their spouse because want to unload on their spouse because you know that just can become toxic how you know that just can become toxic how you know that just can become toxic how would you suggest to um even a solo would you suggest to um even a solo would you suggest to um even a solo pastor who's out there you know to find pastor who's out there you know to find pastor who's out there you know to find someone else what would be some steps someone else what would be some steps someone else what would be some steps you think they could take to find you think they could take to find you think they could take to find someone to even help with some of that someone to even help with some of that someone to even help with some of that yeah well the first thing i tell people yeah well the first thing i tell people yeah well the first thing i tell people that are desperately looking for someone that are desperately looking for someone that are desperately looking for someone to be safe with to be safe with to be safe with is that you've got to be a safe place is that you've got to be a safe place is that you've got to be a safe place before you can find a safe place before you can find a safe place before you can find a safe place that's really kind of first steps is am that's really kind of first steps is am that's really kind of first steps is am i the kind of person i the kind of person i the kind of person that somebody would feel safe that somebody would feel safe that somebody would feel safe disclosing their heart to disclosing their heart to disclosing their heart to and um i mean i think that's a goal for and um i mean i think that's a goal for and um i mean i think that's a goal for all of us henry nauen wrote a great book all of us henry nauen wrote a great book all of us henry nauen wrote a great book called wounded healers called wounded healers called wounded healers and it's the recognition that and it's the recognition that and it's the recognition that vulnerability is a strength not a vulnerability is a strength not a vulnerability is a strength not a weakness right and when i do that weakness right and when i do that weakness right and when i do that it's amazing to me how it's amazing to me how it's amazing to me how i begin to discover people that i can i begin to discover people that i can i begin to discover people that i can also be safe with also be safe with also be safe with when i decide and determine when i decide and determine when i decide and determine i'm not going to judge i'm not going to i'm not going to judge i'm not going to i'm not going to judge i'm not going to condemn i'm not going to be critical i'm condemn i'm not going to be critical i'm condemn i'm not going to be critical i'm not going i'm not going to be not going i'm not going to be not going i'm not going to be competitive with other pastors competitive with other pastors competitive with other pastors because i think other pastors need because i think other pastors need because i think other pastors need sorry about that no that's great i think sorry about that no that's great i think sorry about that no that's great i think other pastors need other pastors other pastors need other pastors other pastors need other pastors to be safe with to be safe with to be safe with and so i'm a big proponent of really and so i'm a big proponent of really and so i'm a big proponent of really building collegiality in uh you know building collegiality in uh you know building collegiality in uh you know interdenominationally with other pastors interdenominationally with other pastors interdenominationally with other pastors because i think sometimes pastors

because i think sometimes pastors because i think sometimes pastors outsider denomination can be our safest outsider denomination can be our safest outsider denomination can be our safest places absolutely yeah so places absolutely yeah so places absolutely yeah so you know i i actually just last night i you know i i actually just last night i you know i i actually just last night i ended up there was had a you know a ended up there was had a you know a ended up there was had a you know a pastor friend of mine contact and say pastor friend of mine contact and say pastor friend of mine contact and say like hey man we just need to get like hey man we just need to get like hey man we just need to get together and talk you know there's some together and talk you know there's some together and talk you know there's some stuff and it wasn't it wasn't any stuff and it wasn't it wasn't any stuff and it wasn't it wasn't any anything significant but it was just anything significant but it was just anything significant but it was just you know life stuff and you know how do you know life stuff and you know how do you know life stuff and you know how do we wrestle through some of that and and we wrestle through some of that and and we wrestle through some of that and and sometimes i think particularly for for sometimes i think particularly for for sometimes i think particularly for for people who are processing a lot of people who are processing a lot of people who are processing a lot of pastoral concerns with people day in day pastoral concerns with people day in day pastoral concerns with people day in day out um that you need someone to interact out um that you need someone to interact out um that you need someone to interact with uh absolutely and to talk you know with uh absolutely and to talk you know with uh absolutely and to talk you know how does that how does that impact me how does that how does that impact me how does that how does that impact me how does that impact my what's that how does that impact my what's that how does that impact my what's that doing to my spiritual development um doing to my spiritual development um doing to my spiritual development um absolutely you know dealing with that absolutely you know dealing with that absolutely you know dealing with that for sure yeah because not every place is for sure yeah because not every place is for sure yeah because not every place is a safe place right and uh you know a safe place right and uh you know a safe place right and uh you know i do a talk on the discipline of honesty i do a talk on the discipline of honesty i do a talk on the discipline of honesty in that series and uh you can't turn in that series and uh you can't turn in that series and uh you can't turn your pulpit into your therapy place your pulpit into your therapy place your pulpit into your therapy place true because you don't cast your pearls true because you don't cast your pearls true because you don't cast your pearls before swine not that your people are before swine not that your people are before swine not that your people are pigs but uh they're not a safe place yes pigs but uh they're not a safe place yes pigs but uh they're not a safe place yes so yeah you've got to find a safe place so yeah you've got to find a safe place so yeah you've got to find a safe place absolutely you know absolutely for sure absolutely you know absolutely for sure absolutely you know absolutely for sure well what else would you say um you know well what else would you say um you know well what else would you say um you know to folks that are you know listening in to folks that are you know listening in to folks that are you know listening in today is there anything else you'd love today is there anything else you'd love today is there anything else you'd love to uh to share with them to uh to share with them to uh to share with them sure come to ats we'd love to have you sure come to ats we'd love to have you sure come to ats we'd love to have you still time to register for this fall still time to register for this fall still time to register for this fall or niacc if you don't have your or niacc if you don't have your or niacc if you don't have your undergrad degree yet yeah undergrad degree yet yeah undergrad degree yet yeah right but uh no what i would say is um right but uh no what i would say is um right but uh no what i would say is um listen god's doing amazing things in the listen god's doing amazing things in the listen god's doing amazing things in the churches in new york city in the metro churches in new york city in the metro churches in new york city in the metro new york area new york area new york area i mean there's some such

i mean there's some such i mean there's some such amazing stories of god on the move in amazing stories of god on the move in amazing stories of god on the move in the church the church the church and i know there's a lot of people that and i know there's a lot of people that and i know there's a lot of people that are kind of down on church but are kind of down on church but are kind of down on church but i have a real high value value on i have a real high value value on i have a real high value value on ecclesiology ecclesiology ecclesiology and i think sometimes those of us in and i think sometimes those of us in and i think sometimes those of us in para church ministry para church ministry para church ministry uh kind of look down on the local church uh kind of look down on the local church uh kind of look down on the local church i just had a conversation with a dear i just had a conversation with a dear i just had a conversation with a dear friend of mine he's a ceo for a friend of mine he's a ceo for a friend of mine he's a ceo for a parachurch organization parachurch organization parachurch organization and he said ron i don't get it why and he said ron i don't get it why and he said ron i don't get it why aren't my people growing after they get aren't my people growing after they get aren't my people growing after they get back from their mission trips after they back from their mission trips after they back from their mission trips after they do this incredible stuff do this incredible stuff do this incredible stuff i said they're not growing because you i said they're not growing because you i said they're not growing because you have no ecclesiology have no ecclesiology have no ecclesiology you don't go to church you don't tie you don't go to church you don't tie you don't go to church you don't tie them to the church them to the church them to the church and the church is god's vehicle for and the church is god's vehicle for and the church is god's vehicle for long-term spiritual growth and wholeness long-term spiritual growth and wholeness long-term spiritual growth and wholeness and i know it's dysfunctional i know and i know it's dysfunctional i know and i know it's dysfunctional i know it's broken but god loves his bride it's broken but god loves his bride it's broken but god loves his bride right and uh and so i'm excited about right and uh and so i'm excited about right and uh and so i'm excited about what god's doing in the church in the what god's doing in the church in the what god's doing in the church in the metro new york area so that's so true metro new york area so that's so true metro new york area so that's so true don't give up yeah absolutely you know don't give up yeah absolutely you know don't give up yeah absolutely you know it's so true i appreciate nayak and and it's so true i appreciate nayak and and it's so true i appreciate nayak and and ats ats ats um you know for as a as someone who's um you know for as a as someone who's um you know for as a as someone who's ministering in the you know kind of ministering in the you know kind of ministering in the you know kind of metro new york area it's one of those metro new york area it's one of those metro new york area it's one of those schools that you bump into people all schools that you bump into people all schools that you bump into people all the time you bump into great people who the time you bump into great people who the time you bump into great people who have you know have been through your have you know have been through your have you know have been through your school or benefiting from your schools school or benefiting from your schools school or benefiting from your schools and um you know i'm just so thankful and um you know i'm just so thankful and um you know i'm just so thankful that you're part of the matrix of what that you're part of the matrix of what that you're part of the matrix of what god's doing uh in our part of the world god's doing uh in our part of the world god's doing uh in our part of the world for sure this is the unseminary podcast for sure this is the unseminary podcast for sure this is the unseminary podcast stuff you wish they taught in seminary stuff you wish they taught in seminary stuff you wish they taught in seminary well we're going to jump into the well we're going to jump into the well we're going to jump into the lightning round this is that part of the lightning round this is that part of the lightning round this is that part of the show where we ask uh similar questions show where we ask uh similar questions show where we ask uh similar questions everybody who's been on the show today everybody who's been on the show today everybody who's been on the show today we got ron walbourne super excited to

we got ron walbourne super excited to we got ron walbourne super excited to have him from uh alliance theological have him from uh alliance theological have him from uh alliance theological seminary in niacc new york so well they seminary in niacc new york so well they seminary in niacc new york so well they actually have multiple campuses right actually have multiple campuses right actually have multiple campuses right where are all your campuses where are where are all your campuses where are where are all your campuses where are they they they well the seminary has a campus in well the seminary has a campus in well the seminary has a campus in rockland county and nyack but also in rockland county and nyack but also in rockland county and nyack but also in new york city and also down in puerto new york city and also down in puerto new york city and also down in puerto rico which if you speak spanish you rico which if you speak spanish you rico which if you speak spanish you might want to go to puerto rico for your might want to go to puerto rico for your might want to go to puerto rico for your seminary education down there and then seminary education down there and then seminary education down there and then the college has a campus in rockland the college has a campus in rockland the college has a campus in rockland county here in nyack but also down in county here in nyack but also down in county here in nyack but also down in new york city brand new facility in new new york city brand new facility in new new york city brand new facility in new york right off battery park york right off battery park york right off battery park beautiful 168 000 square feet down there beautiful 168 000 square feet down there beautiful 168 000 square feet down there yeah go visit yeah nice all right what's yeah go visit yeah nice all right what's yeah go visit yeah nice all right what's an online resource you're using these an online resource you're using these an online resource you're using these days that's helping you out days that's helping you out days that's helping you out ah man ah man ah man to be honest i'm doing a lot of to be honest i'm doing a lot of to be honest i'm doing a lot of assessment and i'm doing a lot of boring assessment and i'm doing a lot of boring assessment and i'm doing a lot of boring seminary stuff seminary stuff seminary stuff so so so i'm on the association of theological i'm on the association of theological i'm on the association of theological schools uh website way too much okay but schools uh website way too much okay but schools uh website way too much okay but to but to feed my soul to but to feed my soul to but to feed my soul uh i'll tell you i'm and it's a podcast uh i'll tell you i'm and it's a podcast uh i'll tell you i'm and it's a podcast i don't know if that counts yeah i don't know if that counts yeah i don't know if that counts yeah absolutely uh i'm good friends with a absolutely uh i'm good friends with a absolutely uh i'm good friends with a guy named bill johnson from out in guy named bill johnson from out in guy named bill johnson from out in northern california we used to fish northern california we used to fish northern california we used to fish together when i was out in reading together when i was out in reading together when i was out in reading pastoring and and as often as i can pastoring and and as often as i can pastoring and and as often as i can listen to bill i mean bill and i don't listen to bill i mean bill and i don't listen to bill i mean bill and i don't always agree 100 always agree 100 always agree 100 on one another but he feeds my soul on one another but he feeds my soul on one another but he feeds my soul right and he feeds my spirit and uh and right and he feeds my spirit and uh and right and he feeds my spirit and uh and so when i walk and when i exercise i try so when i walk and when i exercise i try so when i walk and when i exercise i try to uh get what i can uh through my to uh get what i can uh through my to uh get what i can uh through my podcast through listening to bethel very podcast through listening to bethel very podcast through listening to bethel very cool cool cool yeah very cool all right um now what's a yeah very cool all right um now what's a yeah very cool all right um now what's a book you've read now this is a dangerous book you've read now this is a dangerous book you've read now this is a dangerous question asking a dean because i'm sure question asking a dean because i'm sure question asking a dean because i'm sure you've read more than a few books in the you've read more than a few books in the you've read more than a few books in the last six months um that have had an

last six months um that have had an last six months um that have had an impact on your thinking or your ministry impact on your thinking or your ministry impact on your thinking or your ministry all right let me give you let me just all right let me give you let me just all right let me give you let me just give you two research too that i've read give you two research too that i've read give you two research too that i've read there are two novels uh written by bill there are two novels uh written by bill there are two novels uh written by bill crockett he just retired professor of crockett he just retired professor of crockett he just retired professor of new testament here okay but they're new testament here okay but they're new testament here okay but they're historical fiction novels on the roman historical fiction novels on the roman historical fiction novels on the roman empire empire empire and when you read those two novels one and when you read those two novels one and when you read those two novels one is called uh is called uh is called uh a celt in rome a celt in rome a celt in rome and the other one is called worlds apart and the other one is called worlds apart and the other one is called worlds apart and uh when you read those two novels and uh when you read those two novels and uh when you read those two novels you will come away you will come away you will come away with an incredible understanding of the with an incredible understanding of the with an incredible understanding of the first century and the culture first century and the culture first century and the culture surrounding the biblical narrative and surrounding the biblical narrative and surrounding the biblical narrative and uh and not not only that they're just uh and not not only that they're just uh and not not only that they're just great books bestsellers in germany by great books bestsellers in germany by great books bestsellers in germany by the way and the other book this is more the way and the other book this is more the way and the other book this is more of a theological resource of a theological resource of a theological resource i just picked up again an old book by i just picked up again an old book by i just picked up again an old book by howard snyder called kingdom church and howard snyder called kingdom church and howard snyder called kingdom church and world okay and it's not long it's just world okay and it's not long it's just world okay and it's not long it's just short but i think it would be a really short but i think it would be a really short but i think it would be a really valuable book for pastors to pick up valuable book for pastors to pick up valuable book for pastors to pick up it's only about 100 pages it's only about 100 pages it's only about 100 pages but snyder does a masterful job from an but snyder does a masterful job from an but snyder does a masterful job from an anabaptist tradition of talking about anabaptist tradition of talking about anabaptist tradition of talking about the role of the kingdom the primary the role of the kingdom the primary the role of the kingdom the primary message of jesus the role of the church message of jesus the role of the church message of jesus the role of the church in preaching the kingdom and bringing in preaching the kingdom and bringing in preaching the kingdom and bringing the kingdom and then the role of the the kingdom and then the role of the the kingdom and then the role of the church and the kingdom in the world church and the kingdom in the world church and the kingdom in the world excellent excellent little book very excellent excellent little book very excellent excellent little book very cool cool cool what's another ministry you're kind of what's another ministry you're kind of what's another ministry you're kind of looking to these days and saying like looking to these days and saying like looking to these days and saying like i'm kind of motivated by what they do i'm kind of motivated by what they do i'm kind of motivated by what they do are inspired by what they do um you know are inspired by what they do um you know are inspired by what they do um you know who's out there doing some stuff we who's out there doing some stuff we who's out there doing some stuff we should be looking at should be looking at should be looking at um i'm really excited about trinity um i'm really excited about trinity um i'm really excited about trinity grace down in new york city john tyson's grace down in new york city john tyson's grace down in new york city john tyson's a good friend and i really like the

a good friend and i really like the a good friend and i really like the concept of a neighborhood church they've concept of a neighborhood church they've concept of a neighborhood church they've planted now i think they're planting planted now i think they're planting planted now i think they're planting their 10th trinity grace church down in their 10th trinity grace church down in their 10th trinity grace church down in new york city and his goal has never new york city and his goal has never new york city and his goal has never been to be the mega church his goal has been to be the mega church his goal has been to be the mega church his goal has been to transform communities transform been to transform communities transform been to transform communities transform neighborhoods and i really like that neighborhoods and i really like that neighborhoods and i really like that it's working down in new york city it's working down in new york city it's working down in new york city certainly there's other ministries that certainly there's other ministries that certainly there's other ministries that uh i i'm enjoying as well and and and uh i i'm enjoying as well and and and uh i i'm enjoying as well and and and benefiting from but as a seminary dean i benefiting from but as a seminary dean i benefiting from but as a seminary dean i think it's really important for me to think it's really important for me to think it's really important for me to keep my finger on the pulse of what's keep my finger on the pulse of what's keep my finger on the pulse of what's working in the church and what's not working in the church and what's not working in the church and what's not working in the church right i don't ever working in the church right i don't ever working in the church right i don't ever want to get disconnected want to get disconnected want to get disconnected from the church absolutely cool all from the church absolutely cool all from the church absolutely cool all right if you could get 15 minutes with right if you could get 15 minutes with right if you could get 15 minutes with any leader alive today uh who would you any leader alive today uh who would you any leader alive today uh who would you want to get that 15 minutes with and why want to get that 15 minutes with and why want to get that 15 minutes with and why i i would love to sit down with barack i i would love to sit down with barack i i would love to sit down with barack obama okay yeah yeah i mean no obama okay yeah yeah i mean no obama okay yeah yeah i mean no disrespect by calling him by his first disrespect by calling him by his first disrespect by calling him by his first name um name um name um and i know a lot of people have and i know a lot of people have and i know a lot of people have uh issues behind stuff that he does and uh issues behind stuff that he does and uh issues behind stuff that he does and what he's done but the reality is i i've what he's done but the reality is i i've what he's done but the reality is i i've known some people uh that have spent known some people uh that have spent known some people uh that have spent time with him time with him time with him and they come away with a very different and they come away with a very different and they come away with a very different perspective than those of us that know perspective than those of us that know perspective than those of us that know him through the media and so gabrielle him through the media and so gabrielle him through the media and so gabrielle salguero is one of our adjunct profs salguero is one of our adjunct profs salguero is one of our adjunct profs here and here and here and in fact one time i was sitting in class in fact one time i was sitting in class in fact one time i was sitting in class observing gabrielle he was teaching a observing gabrielle he was teaching a observing gabrielle he was teaching a theology course theology course theology course and uh and uh and uh all of a sudden his phone rings and he all of a sudden his phone rings and he all of a sudden his phone rings and he said excuse me i have to take this and said excuse me i have to take this and said excuse me i have to take this and he walks out of class he walks out of class he walks out of class and i looked at the class and here i am and i looked at the class and here i am and i looked at the class and here i am his dean is observing him and evaluating his dean is observing him and evaluating his dean is observing him and evaluating him and he takes a cell phone call yes

him and he takes a cell phone call yes him and he takes a cell phone call yes well it turns out it was the white house well it turns out it was the white house well it turns out it was the white house yeah you picked that phone up when that yeah you picked that phone up when that yeah you picked that phone up when that phone rings you pick that one up he was phone rings you pick that one up he was phone rings you pick that one up he was praying with obama out in the student praying with obama out in the student praying with obama out in the student lounge i said okay you can take that lounge i said okay you can take that lounge i said okay you can take that call call call but uh yeah i would really like to but uh yeah i would really like to but uh yeah i would really like to understand uh understand uh understand uh what's going on underneath the surface what's going on underneath the surface what's going on underneath the surface of why he's doing the things he he does of why he's doing the things he he does of why he's doing the things he he does i think that's true with all leaders we i think that's true with all leaders we i think that's true with all leaders we don't fully understand them right by don't fully understand them right by don't fully understand them right by only looking at the decisions they've only looking at the decisions they've only looking at the decisions they've made right made right made right cool cool cool well when you're not uh you know busy well when you're not uh you know busy well when you're not uh you know busy being a dean which i'm sure keeps you being a dean which i'm sure keeps you being a dean which i'm sure keeps you really busy um what do you do just for really busy um what do you do just for really busy um what do you do just for fun to kind of kick back you know relax fun to kind of kick back you know relax fun to kind of kick back you know relax and enjoy life a little bit well first and enjoy life a little bit well first and enjoy life a little bit well first of all i'm a new grandpa so of all i'm a new grandpa so of all i'm a new grandpa so congratulations 12 days ago my son and congratulations 12 days ago my son and congratulations 12 days ago my son and daughter-in-law uh had our first daughter-in-law uh had our first daughter-in-law uh had our first grandbaby a granddaughter so uh my grandbaby a granddaughter so uh my grandbaby a granddaughter so uh my wife's driving me crazy when are we wife's driving me crazy when are we wife's driving me crazy when are we going to syracuse when are we going to going to syracuse when are we going to going to syracuse when are we going to syracuse so we were just up there last syracuse so we were just up there last syracuse so we were just up there last week and so i have a feeling because of week and so i have a feeling because of week and so i have a feeling because of my wife uh and because of me uh and our my wife uh and because of me uh and our my wife uh and because of me uh and our deep love for this little girl our new deep love for this little girl our new deep love for this little girl our new hobby is going to be trips to syracuse hobby is going to be trips to syracuse hobby is going to be trips to syracuse regularly regularly regularly but you know i love to walk but you know i love to walk but you know i love to walk and i love to golf but i haven't been and i love to golf but i haven't been and i love to golf but i haven't been able to get out golfing much able to get out golfing much able to get out golfing much but i have been walking a lot and i but i have been walking a lot and i but i have been walking a lot and i really enjoy just walking with my wife really enjoy just walking with my wife really enjoy just walking with my wife especially very cool especially very cool especially very cool well ron i appreciate you being on the well ron i appreciate you being on the well ron i appreciate you being on the show today for giving us some time you show today for giving us some time you show today for giving us some time you know super appreciate that if people know super appreciate that if people know super appreciate that if people want to get in touch with you or with want to get in touch with you or with want to get in touch with you or with the seminary how can they do that the seminary how can they do that the seminary how can they do that probably my email is the best way probably my email is the best way probably my email is the best way ronald.walborn ronald.walborn ronald.walborn r-o-n-a-l-d-w-a-l-b-o-r-n and i'd love to hear from them and if

and i'd love to hear from them and if there's anything we can do we'd love to there's anything we can do we'd love to there's anything we can do we'd love to help them great so thanks so much have a help them great so thanks so much have a help them great so thanks so much have a great day doc all right thank you thank great day doc all right thank you thank great day doc all right thank you thank you for tuning in to this week's you for tuning in to this week's you for tuning in to this week's unseminary podcast don't be shy we'd unseminary podcast don't be shy we'd unseminary podcast don't be shy we'd love to connect check out unseminary love to connect check out unseminary love to connect check out unseminary inbox you can sign up at unseminary.com inbox you can sign up at unseminary.com inbox you can sign up at unseminary.com and we'll send you helpful training and we'll send you helpful training and we'll send you helpful training resources every week plus you'll gain resources every week plus you'll gain resources every week plus you'll gain immediate access to our exclusive immediate access to our exclusive immediate access to our exclusive members area with tons of resources you members area with tons of resources you members area with tons of resources you can use connect with rich on twitter at can use connect with rich on twitter at can use connect with rich on twitter at rich birch or through email rich on rich birch or through email rich on rich birch or through email rich on seminary.com don't forget to check out seminary.com don't forget to check out seminary.com don't forget to check out the show notes for this episode at the show notes for this episode at the show notes for this episode at unseminary.com it includes links to what unseminary.com it includes links to what unseminary.com it includes links to what we talked about today and more leave a we talked about today and more leave a we talked about today and more leave a comment we'd love to hear from you did comment we'd love to hear from you did comment we'd love to hear from you did you enjoy today's episode drop by itunes you enjoy today's episode drop by itunes you enjoy today's episode drop by itunes and leave a review thanks again for and leave a review thanks again for and leave a review thanks again for tuning in to this week's on seminary tuning in to this week's on seminary tuning in to this week's on seminary podcast join us next week when we'll podcast join us next week when we'll podcast join us next week when we'll learn more stuff we wish they taught in learn more stuff we wish they taught in learn more stuff we wish they taught in seminary