Thom Rainer on How Churches Are Making An Impact Today

ladies and gentlemen welcome to the ladies and gentlemen welcome to the unseminary podcast are you looking for unseminary podcast are you looking for unseminary podcast are you looking for practical Ministry help to drive your practical Ministry help to drive your practical Ministry help to drive your ministry further faster have a sinking ministry further faster have a sinking ministry further faster have a sinking feeling that your ministry training feeling that your ministry training feeling that your ministry training didn't prepare you for the real world didn't prepare you for the real world didn't prepare you for the real world hey you're not alone join thousands of hey you're not alone join thousands of hey you're not alone join thousands of others in pursuit of stuff that we wish others in pursuit of stuff that we wish others in pursuit of stuff that we wish they had taught in seminary buckle up they had taught in seminary buckle up they had taught in seminary buckle up and let's get started with this week's and let's get started with this week's and let's get started with this week's unseminary podcast well hey everybody unseminary podcast well hey everybody unseminary podcast well hey everybody Welcome to the unseminary podcast thank Welcome to the unseminary podcast thank Welcome to the unseminary podcast thank you so much for listening in my name is you so much for listening in my name is you so much for listening in my name is Rich the host around these parts I know Rich the host around these parts I know Rich the host around these parts I know that you're really busy at your church that you're really busy at your church that you're really busy at your church you've got a lot lot going on this week you've got a lot lot going on this week you've got a lot lot going on this week as we head into the weekend and I'm just as we head into the weekend and I'm just as we head into the weekend and I'm just so thankful that you would take some so thankful that you would take some so thankful that you would take some time out to listen in and today we've time out to listen in and today we've time out to listen in and today we've got a real treat Our Guest on the show got a real treat Our Guest on the show got a real treat Our Guest on the show today is Dr Tom rer he is the president today is Dr Tom rer he is the president today is Dr Tom rer he is the president and CEO of LifeWay Christian resources and CEO of LifeWay Christian resources and CEO of LifeWay Christian resources you've probably heard of Tom before so you've probably heard of Tom before so you've probably heard of Tom before so he doesn't need a huge introduction he's he doesn't need a huge introduction he's he doesn't need a huge introduction he's written over two dozen books on top of written over two dozen books on top of written over two dozen books on top of that he's got a great blog incredible that he's got a great blog incredible that he's got a great blog incredible podcast uh welcome to the show Doctor podcast uh welcome to the show Doctor podcast uh welcome to the show Doctor well doctor is absolutely not necessary well doctor is absolutely not necessary well doctor is absolutely not necessary I mean this Rich this is supposed to be I mean this Rich this is supposed to be I mean this Rich this is supposed to be un Seminary so let's let's let's do away un Seminary so let's let's let's do away un Seminary so let's let's let's do away with the titles and let let your with the titles and let let your with the titles and let let your audience hear from Tom and and not and audience hear from Tom and and not and audience hear from Tom and and not and not doctor the only person that calls me not doctor the only person that calls me not doctor the only person that calls me doctor is my wife and she calls me Most doctor is my wife and she calls me Most doctor is my wife and she calls me Most Holy Reverend doctor other than that Holy Reverend doctor other than that Holy Reverend doctor other than that let's just let's keep it let's keep it let's just let's keep it let's keep it let's just let's keep it let's keep it Tom does she call you most holy Reverend Tom does she call you most holy Reverend Tom does she call you most holy Reverend doctor when you have to take out the doctor when you have to take out the doctor when you have to take out the garbage is that what's going on uh garbage is that what's going on uh garbage is that what's going on uh that's when she orders me to take out that's when she orders me to take out that's when she orders me to take out the garbage and I'm a you know she's a the garbage and I'm a you know she's a the garbage and I'm a you know she's a really submissive wife when I listen to really submissive wife when I listen to really submissive wife when I listen to her carefully and so whenever she tells her carefully and so whenever she tells her carefully and so whenever she tells me to do something I do it nice very me to do something I do it nice very me to do something I do it nice very good fantastic well Tom why don't for good fantastic well Tom why don't for good fantastic well Tom why don't for people who don't know you why don't you people who don't know you why don't you people who don't know you why don't you give us the kind of one minute Tom Story give us the kind of one minute Tom Story give us the kind of one minute Tom Story the thing I appreciate about you not

the thing I appreciate about you not the thing I appreciate about you not only are you helping church leaders you only are you helping church leaders you only are you helping church leaders you have such a passion really for church have such a passion really for church have such a passion really for church leaders uh because of some of your leaders uh because of some of your leaders uh because of some of your background why don't you give us kind of background why don't you give us kind of background why don't you give us kind of this your the Tom rer story very quickly this your the Tom rer story very quickly this your the Tom rer story very quickly out of college uh I went into the family out of college uh I went into the family out of college uh I went into the family business which was Banking and so I was business which was Banking and so I was business which was Banking and so I was a fifth generation Banker uh never had a fifth generation Banker uh never had a fifth generation Banker uh never had been a vocational minister in our family been a vocational minister in our family been a vocational minister in our family in fact I don't think we were very in fact I don't think we were very in fact I don't think we were very Church active uh for several generations Church active uh for several generations Church active uh for several generations and uh the story My call is a story into and uh the story My call is a story into and uh the story My call is a story into it sou so I'm not going to go into there it sou so I'm not going to go into there it sou so I'm not going to go into there but I left the banking world and uh uh but I left the banking world and uh uh but I left the banking world and uh uh went to Seminary um I did not know went to Seminary um I did not know went to Seminary um I did not know anything differently I was a uh 20-some anything differently I was a uh 20-some anything differently I was a uh 20-some late 20s something guy uh I was just you late 20s something guy uh I was just you late 20s something guy uh I was just you got you're going to Ministry so you go got you're going to Ministry so you go got you're going to Ministry so you go to Seminary and I didn't know which to Seminary and I didn't know which to Seminary and I didn't know which Seminary to go to and so my pastor said Seminary to go to and so my pastor said Seminary to go to and so my pastor said I went to this one I said okay I'll go I went to this one I said okay I'll go I went to this one I said okay I'll go to that one too and so we packed up uh to that one too and so we packed up uh to that one too and so we packed up uh had not been admitted we my family of had not been admitted we my family of had not been admitted we my family of then four had not been admitted didn't then four had not been admitted didn't then four had not been admitted didn't have a place to live packed up and uh have a place to live packed up and uh have a place to live packed up and uh uh didn't have a job and so so I went uh didn't have a job and so so I went uh didn't have a job and so so I went from the fast corporate track to from the fast corporate track to from the fast corporate track to unemployed first job was uh uh janitor unemployed first job was uh uh janitor unemployed first job was uh uh janitor at Famous Recipe Fried Chicken oh nice at Famous Recipe Fried Chicken oh nice at Famous Recipe Fried Chicken oh nice so things things change quickly from so things things change quickly from so things things change quickly from Seminary um uh four pastorates um Seminary um uh four pastorates um Seminary um uh four pastorates um Kentucky Indiana Alabama and Florida and Kentucky Indiana Alabama and Florida and Kentucky Indiana Alabama and Florida and then from those uh four uh because I got then from those uh four uh because I got then from those uh four uh because I got an advanced degree my my alma moer an advanced degree my my alma moer an advanced degree my my alma moer called me back and asked me to be dean called me back and asked me to be dean called me back and asked me to be dean of a school at the Seminary so I did of a school at the Seminary so I did of a school at the Seminary so I did that so after those four pastors it was that so after those four pastors it was that so after those four pastors it was during that time Rich that I was also

during that time Rich that I was also during that time Rich that I was also working with my side Venture which was working with my side Venture which was working with my side Venture which was Consulting churches um really had begun Consulting churches um really had begun Consulting churches um really had begun it even while I was a pastor but because it even while I was a pastor but because it even while I was a pastor but because of the nature of Academia I had more of the nature of Academia I had more of the nature of Academia I had more available time to uh Blossom that was available time to uh Blossom that was available time to uh Blossom that was able to consult with several hundred able to consult with several hundred able to consult with several hundred churches five or six hundred churches churches five or six hundred churches churches five or six hundred churches during that 12year period that's great during that 12year period that's great during that 12year period that's great and uh then came to LifeWay where I am and uh then came to LifeWay where I am and uh then came to LifeWay where I am now LifeWay for your listeners is uh and now LifeWay for your listeners is uh and now LifeWay for your listeners is uh and again I'm not trying to do bragging again I'm not trying to do bragging again I'm not trying to do bragging rights but I think it's the largest rights but I think it's the largest rights but I think it's the largest Christian company in the world yeah we Christian company in the world yeah we Christian company in the world yeah we have about 5,000 employees scattered out have about 5,000 employees scattered out have about 5,000 employees scattered out all over the place I am based in all over the place I am based in all over the place I am based in Nashville and we make Christian Nashville and we make Christian Nashville and we make Christian resources and we sell Christian resources and we sell Christian resources and we sell Christian resources so that is the minute and 27 resources so that is the minute and 27 resources so that is the minute and 27 path I went over I went over my path I went over I went over my path I went over I went over my allocated minute no I appreciate that allocated minute no I appreciate that allocated minute no I appreciate that Tom you know one of the things I just Tom you know one of the things I just Tom you know one of the things I just want to say is thank you to your service want to say is thank you to your service want to say is thank you to your service to the broader Body of Christ you know to the broader Body of Christ you know to the broader Body of Christ you know you're one of those leaders that I look you're one of those leaders that I look you're one of those leaders that I look to and I really appreciate you know the to and I really appreciate you know the to and I really appreciate you know the work that you do obviously not only at work that you do obviously not only at work that you do obviously not only at Lifeway you guys do a lot of incredible Lifeway you guys do a lot of incredible Lifeway you guys do a lot of incredible work LifeWay res resources resarch work LifeWay res resources resarch work LifeWay res resources resarch search all kinds of great things and search all kinds of great things and search all kinds of great things and we're just honored to have you here we're just honored to have you here we're just honored to have you here today you know often times we make a today you know often times we make a today you know often times we make a reference here at un Seminary to the reference here at un Seminary to the reference here at un Seminary to the fact that 94% of churches are losing fact that 94% of churches are losing fact that 94% of churches are losing ground against the growth of the ground against the growth of the ground against the growth of the communities they serve so you know we're communities they serve so you know we're communities they serve so you know we're we're we've picked an interesting market we're we've picked an interesting market we're we've picked an interesting market for a lack of a better word to work with for a lack of a better word to work with for a lack of a better word to work with right to to to to be in a lot of you right to to to to be in a lot of you right to to to to be in a lot of you know our brothers and sisters are losing know our brothers and sisters are losing know our brothers and sisters are losing ground against the the communities they ground against the the communities they ground against the the communities they they serve Why do you what do you they serve Why do you what do you they serve Why do you what do you believe are the major contributions to believe are the major contributions to believe are the major contributions to this reality to churches today there this reality to churches today there this reality to churches today there there would always be several and I there would always be several and I there would always be several and I would not want to minimize the uh the would not want to minimize the uh the would not want to minimize the uh the spiritual realities uh so let me begin spiritual realities uh so let me begin spiritual realities uh so let me begin there but then let's go to some

there but then let's go to some there but then let's go to some practical realities as well some of the practical realities as well some of the practical realities as well some of the spiritual realities is uh many of our spiritual realities is uh many of our spiritual realities is uh many of our churches are prayer lless uh we we give churches are prayer lless uh we we give churches are prayer lless uh we we give uh lip service to prayer anytime there's uh lip service to prayer anytime there's uh lip service to prayer anytime there's been a great significant growth uh in been a great significant growth uh in been a great significant growth uh in the church uh historically it has been the church uh historically it has been the church uh historically it has been preceded by uh significant not program preceded by uh significant not program preceded by uh significant not program prayer but just just a burden for prayer prayer but just just a burden for prayer prayer but just just a burden for prayer uh for what for what for whatever reason uh for what for what for whatever reason uh for what for what for whatever reason that is that is not existing in but then that is that is not existing in but then that is that is not existing in but then once we get beyond that I don't think once we get beyond that I don't think once we get beyond that I don't think many of the reasons beyond that platform many of the reasons beyond that platform many of the reasons beyond that platform reason that base reason are necessarily reason that base reason are necessarily reason that base reason are necessarily theological or biblical in the classic theological or biblical in the classic theological or biblical in the classic sense uh and those have to do with sense uh and those have to do with sense uh and those have to do with leadership and relational skills and um leadership and relational skills and um leadership and relational skills and um a lot of our pastors a lot of our staff a lot of our pastors a lot of our staff a lot of our pastors a lot of our staff persons and they say this and uh this is persons and they say this and uh this is persons and they say this and uh this is not any type of integrating statement not any type of integrating statement not any type of integrating statement they they say this I have not been they they say this I have not been they they say this I have not been trained to lead a church with a quarter trained to lead a church with a quarter trained to lead a church with a quarter of a million dollar budget a half of a million dollar budget a half of a million dollar budget a half million dollar budget I have not been million dollar budget I have not been million dollar budget I have not been trained to lead multiple staff I don't trained to lead multiple staff I don't trained to lead multiple staff I don't know how to deal uh with with the the know how to deal uh with with the the know how to deal uh with with the the the person that's constantly on my case the person that's constantly on my case the person that's constantly on my case uh th those type of things can so they uh th those type of things can so they uh th those type of things can so they they may end a pastor or staff's they may end a pastor or staff's they may end a pastor or staff's Ministry but at at the very least they Ministry but at at the very least they Ministry but at at the very least they distract a person from that main focus distract a person from that main focus distract a person from that main focus that they should have and so uh what you that they should have and so uh what you that they should have and so uh what you do uh what I do is uh we're trying to do uh what I do is uh we're trying to do uh what I do is uh we're trying to fill a void um uh it's not not fill a void um uh it's not not fill a void um uh it's not not necessarily a void created by the necessarily a void created by the necessarily a void created by the seminaries but it is it is it is a void seminaries but it is it is it is a void seminaries but it is it is it is a void that is there and and so with without

that is there and and so with without that is there and and so with without these W without without these types of these W without without these types of these W without without these types of basic leadership relational skills that basic leadership relational skills that basic leadership relational skills that takes place there's there's a third takes place there's there's a third takes place there's there's a third factor and I and I said prayer the basic factor and I and I said prayer the basic factor and I and I said prayer the basic skills of leadership and relational skills of leadership and relational skills of leadership and relational skills and then the third factor is this skills and then the third factor is this skills and then the third factor is this there is not a lot of there is not a lot of there is not a lot of intentionality uh when I wrote a book intentionality uh when I wrote a book intentionality uh when I wrote a book called The unchurch Next Door many years called The unchurch Next Door many years called The unchurch Next Door many years ago uh part of the re SE arch in it was ago uh part of the re SE arch in it was ago uh part of the re SE arch in it was that uh only 5% of unchurch people are that uh only 5% of unchurch people are that uh only 5% of unchurch people are resistant to an invitation to church 95% resistant to an invitation to church 95% resistant to an invitation to church 95% are either receptive or neutral and we are either receptive or neutral and we are either receptive or neutral and we have this false narrative that is taking have this false narrative that is taking have this false narrative that is taking place in in many of our churches that we place in in many of our churches that we place in in many of our churches that we cannot right and and and it goes to the cannot right and and and it goes to the cannot right and and and it goes to the leaders it goes to the members and many leaders it goes to the members and many leaders it goes to the members and many times we have surrendered I rich I times we have surrendered I rich I times we have surrendered I rich I remain an obnoxious optimist about the remain an obnoxious optimist about the remain an obnoxious optimist about the church me too just despite the fact that church me too just despite the fact that church me too just despite the fact that it's 90 plus that are losing ground in it's 90 plus that are losing ground in it's 90 plus that are losing ground in their Community I believe because I'm their Community I believe because I'm their Community I believe because I'm seeing things that are happening that I seeing things that are happening that I seeing things that are happening that I think can be more think can be more think can be more pervasively uh understood across North pervasively uh understood across North pervasively uh understood across North America and I that's where I focus more America and I that's where I focus more America and I that's where I focus more than anywhere uh and it and it uh I I than anywhere uh and it and it uh I I than anywhere uh and it and it uh I I just I have hope in the midst of what just I have hope in the midst of what just I have hope in the midst of what seems to be a uh a rather challenging seems to be a uh a rather challenging seems to be a uh a rather challenging scenario I appreciate that and that's scenario I appreciate that and that's scenario I appreciate that and that's what I appreciate about you and I what I appreciate about you and I what I appreciate about you and I resonate with that I'm in the same boat resonate with that I'm in the same boat resonate with that I'm in the same boat I really do I love the challenge that we I really do I love the challenge that we I really do I love the challenge that we that we have I'll say to other church that we have I'll say to other church that we have I'll say to other church leaders you know God picked you to lead leaders you know God picked you to lead leaders you know God picked you to lead at this moment which is pretty at this moment which is pretty at this moment which is pretty incredible now let's talk a little bit incredible now let's talk a little bit incredible now let's talk a little bit about that how you know how are you about that how you know how are you about that how you know how are you seeing churches engage with the cultures seeing churches engage with the cultures seeing churches engage with the cultures of their communities in a way you know of their communities in a way you know of their communities in a way you know that doesn't compromise the message of that doesn't compromise the message of that doesn't compromise the message of Jesus they're able to kind of connect in Jesus they're able to kind of connect in Jesus they're able to kind of connect in with their Community see people reach

with their Community see people reach with their Community see people reach out to the young Church uh but do that out to the young Church uh but do that out to the young Church uh but do that in a way that doesn't compromise with in a way that doesn't compromise with in a way that doesn't compromise with the message the millennial generation is the message the millennial generation is the message the millennial generation is teaching me a lot I don't know what year teaching me a lot I don't know what year teaching me a lot I don't know what year you were born but I have three sons that you were born but I have three sons that you were born but I have three sons that were born between 1980 and 2000 uh which were born between 1980 and 2000 uh which were born between 1980 and 2000 uh which is which is the millennial generation is which is the millennial generation is which is the millennial generation about 78 million the largest generation about 78 million the largest generation about 78 million the largest generation in America's history and that generation in America's history and that generation in America's history and that generation has has taught me that true Ministry has has taught me that true Ministry has has taught me that true Ministry true evangelism that has credibility and true evangelism that has credibility and true evangelism that has credibility and integrity behind it is built upon integrity behind it is built upon integrity behind it is built upon relationships is built upon connecting relationships is built upon connecting relationships is built upon connecting with other people uh I've watched my son with other people uh I've watched my son with other people uh I've watched my son who is a church planner and I've I've who is a church planner and I've I've who is a church planner and I've I've joined his church because it's in the joined his church because it's in the joined his church because it's in the Nashville area and I've I've watched him Nashville area and I've I've watched him Nashville area and I've I've watched him and people in that church develop and people in that church develop and people in that church develop relationships and people will say tell relationships and people will say tell relationships and people will say tell me what's different about you or tell me me what's different about you or tell me me what's different about you or tell me what's going on or they'll come to what's going on or they'll come to what's going on or they'll come to church and and they'll hear a clear church and and they'll hear a clear church and and they'll hear a clear gospel message there there's always the gospel message there there's always the gospel message there there's always the swing of the pendulum Rich the the uh in swing of the pendulum Rich the the uh in swing of the pendulum Rich the the uh in the turn of the 20th century uh there the turn of the 20th century uh there the turn of the 20th century uh there was uh really a lot of good deeds was uh really a lot of good deeds was uh really a lot of good deeds without gospel and then the the pendulum without gospel and then the the pendulum without gospel and then the the pendulum swung the other way and there was the swung the other way and there was the swung the other way and there was the Gospel message without the Gospel Life Gospel message without the Gospel Life Gospel message without the Gospel Life and now what I'm seeing happen is we're and now what I'm seeing happen is we're and now what I'm seeing happen is we're seeing them come together and and we're seeing them come together and and we're seeing them come together and and we're seeing relationships that then give us seeing relationships that then give us seeing relationships that then give us the opportunity to connect with people the opportunity to connect with people the opportunity to connect with people so we're seeing churches that are so we're seeing churches that are so we're seeing churches that are following along that are saying I want following along that are saying I want following along that are saying I want to get in the community I want to make a to get in the community I want to make a to get in the community I want to make a difference and uh this isn't just about difference and uh this isn't just about difference and uh this isn't just about some type of memorized uh uh some type of memorized uh uh some type of memorized uh uh presentation but the gospel is present

presentation but the gospel is present presentation but the gospel is present in many of the things they say in many of the things they say in many of the things they say absolutely now that's that's amazing you absolutely now that's that's amazing you absolutely now that's that's amazing you know I really have seen that you know know I really have seen that you know know I really have seen that you know that I have a friend of mine um you know that I have a friend of mine um you know that I have a friend of mine um you know would be a millennial leader who's would be a millennial leader who's would be a millennial leader who's planting a church right now literally as planting a church right now literally as planting a church right now literally as they're speaking and for him it's very they're speaking and for him it's very they're speaking and for him it's very clear that it is both about the clear that it is both about the clear that it is both about the demonstration and the proclamation of demonstration and the proclamation of demonstration and the proclamation of the Gospel that they are they're they're the Gospel that they are they're they're the Gospel that they are they're they're worried about kind of the tradition worried about kind of the tradition worried about kind of the tradition thing you know I'm a I'm a gen xer I'm thing you know I'm a I'm a gen xer I'm thing you know I'm a I'm a gen xer I'm in that 1974 literally at the very in that 1974 literally at the very in that 1974 literally at the very bottom of the boom and then the bust I bottom of the boom and then the bust I bottom of the boom and then the bust I was the least amount of people born in was the least amount of people born in was the least amount of people born in the year I was born in our country uh the year I was born in our country uh the year I was born in our country uh but you know his church is interesting but you know his church is interesting but you know his church is interesting because they really are trying to do because they really are trying to do because they really are trying to do both and hold really both very high both and hold really both very high both and hold really both very high which is incredible are you seeing that which is incredible are you seeing that which is incredible are you seeing that as a trend this kind of community as a trend this kind of community as a trend this kind of community service oriented kind of evangelism for service oriented kind of evangelism for service oriented kind of evangelism for lack of a better word as a trend across lack of a better word as a trend across lack of a better word as a trend across the broader church today I'm seeing it the broader church today I'm seeing it the broader church today I'm seeing it as a trend across more younger churches as a trend across more younger churches as a trend across more younger churches and I'm hoping that that will become an and I'm hoping that that will become an and I'm hoping that that will become an influence uh of the older more influence uh of the older more influence uh of the older more established churches um I I have I have established churches um I I have I have established churches um I I have I have a kind of a mentoring Ministry uh to a kind of a mentoring Ministry uh to a kind of a mentoring Ministry uh to pastors and others as well and many of pastors and others as well and many of pastors and others as well and many of the older pastors now older not I'm I'm the older pastors now older not I'm I'm the older pastors now older not I'm I'm a 61 year old I'll be 61 year old so I'm a 61 year old I'll be 61 year old so I'm a 61 year old I'll be 61 year old so I'm not talking about necessarily as old as not talking about necessarily as old as not talking about necessarily as old as I am but the from the 40 mid-40s and up I am but the from the 40 mid-40s and up I am but the from the 40 mid-40s and up and they're they're asking questions and they're they're asking questions and they're they're asking questions about what's what do I need to be doing about what's what do I need to be doing about what's what do I need to be doing how do I need to change so there's a how do I need to change so there's a how do I need to change so there's a openness to this older leadership to do openness to this older leadership to do openness to this older leadership to do the things that uh some of the younger the things that uh some of the younger the things that uh some of the younger leadership is doing and I'm I'm hoping leadership is doing and I'm I'm hoping leadership is doing and I'm I'm hoping that the training uh of the experience that the training uh of the experience that the training uh of the experience and then the training of what I'm doing and then the training of what I'm doing and then the training of what I'm doing currently as a young can can flow both

currently as a young can can flow both currently as a young can can flow both ways very cool very cool well changing ways very cool very cool well changing ways very cool very cool well changing tack a little bit if you were starting tack a little bit if you were starting tack a little bit if you were starting out in Ministry today you stepped out out in Ministry today you stepped out out in Ministry today you stepped out after Seminary uh you're going back into after Seminary uh you're going back into after Seminary uh you're going back into that first pastorate uh knowing what you that first pastorate uh knowing what you that first pastorate uh knowing what you know today you know what would have you know today you know what would have you know today you know what would have you done different when you started out in done different when you started out in done different when you started out in local church ministry gosh almost local church ministry gosh almost local church ministry gosh almost everything uh I I uh first thing I do is everything uh I I uh first thing I do is everything uh I I uh first thing I do is fire me because I know I'm not I know fire me because I know I'm not I know fire me because I know I'm not I know I'm not competent to lead a church I I'm not competent to lead a church I I'm not competent to lead a church I mean one of the one of the reasons I'm mean one of the one of the reasons I'm mean one of the one of the reasons I'm not there is because uh there there's so not there is because uh there there's so not there is because uh there there's so much about being a pastor and being a much about being a pastor and being a much about being a pastor and being a leader of a church this is one of the leader of a church this is one of the leader of a church this is one of the toughest jobs in the world and I I would toughest jobs in the world and I I would toughest jobs in the world and I I would doubt my own competency I told Nelly Joe doubt my own competency I told Nelly Joe doubt my own competency I told Nelly Joe my wife one time that I was thinking my wife one time that I was thinking my wife one time that I was thinking about writing a book of that mistakes about writing a book of that mistakes about writing a book of that mistakes I've made in Ministry she said no I've made in Ministry she said no I've made in Ministry she said no that'll be a multivolume series so I I I that'll be a multivolume series so I I I that'll be a multivolume series so I I I have I have not gone that path she was have I have not gone that path she was have I have not gone that path she was willing to contribute to that is that willing to contribute to that is that willing to contribute to that is that what you're saying she's like I got a what you're saying she's like I got a what you're saying she's like I got a few ideas I think she had a few volumes few ideas I think she had a few volumes few ideas I think she had a few volumes and not not not just a few not just a and not not not just a few not just a and not not not just a few not just a few ideas uh there would be so many few ideas uh there would be so many few ideas uh there would be so many things that u i i I would do differently things that u i i I would do differently things that u i i I would do differently for one uh I tended I I sometimes I for one uh I tended I I sometimes I for one uh I tended I I sometimes I blame it on my introverted personality blame it on my introverted personality blame it on my introverted personality but that's no excuse uh I I tended to be but that's no excuse uh I I tended to be but that's no excuse uh I I tended to be less relational instead of more less relational instead of more less relational instead of more relational uh I I I tended to spend more relational uh I I I tended to spend more relational uh I I I tended to spend more time in my office working on the message time in my office working on the message time in my office working on the message instead of working on the relationships instead of working on the relationships instead of working on the relationships with people I never got that balance with people I never got that balance with people I never got that balance uh exactly right um I advocated uh uh exactly right um I advocated uh uh exactly right um I advocated uh especially in the established churches especially in the established churches especially in the established churches since I serve four of them uh I since I serve four of them uh I since I serve four of them uh I advocated a leadership style that was advocated a leadership style that was advocated a leadership style that was incremental that could take the people

incremental that could take the people incremental that could take the people with me instead of uh getting too far with me instead of uh getting too far with me instead of uh getting too far ahead but I always got too far ahead and ahead but I always got too far ahead and ahead but I always got too far ahead and it and it and it brought me problems and it and it and it brought me problems and it and it and it brought me problems and I think the major reason behind it is I I think the major reason behind it is I I think the major reason behind it is I I don't think I ever went into a church I don't think I ever went into a church I don't think I ever went into a church with a long-term view I think I went with a long-term view I think I went with a long-term view I think I went into a church thinking what is the next into a church thinking what is the next into a church thinking what is the next church now I'm I'm I'm not advocating church now I'm I'm I'm not advocating church now I'm I'm I'm not advocating that you you're not supposed to leave a that you you're not supposed to leave a that you you're not supposed to leave a church after three or four years but church after three or four years but church after three or four years but unless you're going into a clear unless you're going into a clear unless you're going into a clear situation where you know you're going to situation where you know you're going to situation where you know you're going to leave like maybe a small rural church leave like maybe a small rural church leave like maybe a small rural church that's uh that uh that while you're at that's uh that uh that while you're at that's uh that uh that while you're at bible college or seminary and you know bible college or seminary and you know bible college or seminary and you know okay when I graduate I'll leave there uh okay when I graduate I'll leave there uh okay when I graduate I'll leave there uh I made the mistake in my other churches I made the mistake in my other churches I made the mistake in my other churches of saying okay I'm coming to this church of saying okay I'm coming to this church of saying okay I'm coming to this church and what's next I'm coming to this and what's next I'm coming to this and what's next I'm coming to this church instead of saying what now and I church instead of saying what now and I church instead of saying what now and I was never present enough and uh climbing was never present enough and uh climbing was never present enough and uh climbing the ecclesiological ladder uh uh looking the ecclesiological ladder uh uh looking the ecclesiological ladder uh uh looking to the next thing those were some of the to the next thing those were some of the to the next thing those were some of the biggest mistakes I made which means I biggest mistakes I made which means I biggest mistakes I made which means I never really invested in the community never really invested in the community never really invested in the community because in the back of my mind I wasn't because in the back of my mind I wasn't because in the back of my mind I wasn't going to be in the community long so I going to be in the community long so I going to be in the community long so I made a huge mistake in how I approach made a huge mistake in how I approach made a huge mistake in how I approach Church life because I was not ready to Church life because I was not ready to Church life because I was not ready to invest for the Long Haul even if I invest for the Long Haul even if I invest for the Long Haul even if I didn't stay for the Long Haul my mindset didn't stay for the Long Haul my mindset didn't stay for the Long Haul my mindset needed to be I'm here as long as I'm needed to be I'm here as long as I'm needed to be I'm here as long as I'm here and I'm going to invest oh wow here and I'm going to invest oh wow here and I'm going to invest oh wow that's I and I hope that encourages that's I and I hope that encourages that's I and I hope that encourages leaders who are listening in today I leaders who are listening in today I leaders who are listening in today I know there's a lot of church you know know there's a lot of church you know know there's a lot of church you know leaders and pastors who do find leaders and pastors who do find leaders and pastors who do find themselves maybe a little bit themselves maybe a little bit themselves maybe a little bit discouraged and you can pull back from

discouraged and you can pull back from discouraged and you can pull back from your people maybe maybe not physically your people maybe maybe not physically your people maybe maybe not physically but even just emotionally and mentally but even just emotionally and mentally but even just emotionally and mentally and you kind of begin to put distance and you kind of begin to put distance and you kind of begin to put distance which then becomes a vicious cycle we which then becomes a vicious cycle we which then becomes a vicious cycle we know that right it pushes and and then know that right it pushes and and then know that right it pushes and and then ultimately you know you you do I ultimately you know you you do I ultimately you know you you do I appreciate you know what you're saying appreciate you know what you're saying appreciate you know what you're saying there we have to lean in on the there we have to lean in on the there we have to lean in on the community communities that we're in um community communities that we're in um community communities that we're in um today you know this is where God's today you know this is where God's today you know this is where God's called us to today let's you know let's called us to today let's you know let's called us to today let's you know let's do that absolutely you know who are you do that absolutely you know who are you do that absolutely you know who are you learning from these days you know you're learning from these days you know you're learning from these days you know you're a leader that a lot of people look to a leader that a lot of people look to a leader that a lot of people look to what are some other churches or what are some other churches or what are some other churches or organizations it can be anything you organizations it can be anything you organizations it can be anything you know it can be a Christian organization know it can be a Christian organization know it can be a Christian organization or not that inspires you and motivates or not that inspires you and motivates or not that inspires you and motivates you uh I have to say this um I have a you uh I have to say this um I have a you uh I have to say this um I have a network that is a very natural network network that is a very natural network network that is a very natural network of uh pastors and church leaders through of uh pastors and church leaders through of uh pastors and church leaders through an organization called Church answers an organization called Church answers an organization called Church answers and and it is it is just it's it's and and it is it is just it's it's and and it is it is just it's it's basically a subscription based mentoring basically a subscription based mentoring basically a subscription based mentoring and different levels of mentoring you and different levels of mentoring you and different levels of mentoring you would not recognize the the the churches would not recognize the the the churches would not recognize the the the churches most likely and the leaders that are most likely and the leaders that are most likely and the leaders that are inspiring me because they do not have inspiring me because they do not have inspiring me because they do not have the Marquee that a lot of others do I the Marquee that a lot of others do I the Marquee that a lot of others do I I'll give you I'll give you one example I'll give you I'll give you one example I'll give you I'll give you one example uh he he has the the classic name for a uh he he has the the classic name for a uh he he has the the classic name for a pastor his name is Chuck angel I pastor his name is Chuck angel I pastor his name is Chuck angel I mean can't make that up yeah who who is mean can't make that up yeah who who is mean can't make that up yeah who who is our pastor he's an our pastor he's an our pastor he's an angel he's just an angel and uh he is a angel he's just an angel and uh he is a angel he's just an angel and uh he is a he is a pastor of a church uh called he is a pastor of a church uh called he is a pastor of a church uh called Foundry in the Denver area and Chuck got Foundry in the Denver area and Chuck got Foundry in the Denver area and Chuck got there the attendance was two had been there the attendance was two had been there the attendance was two had been 186 to 190 for about 12 years in that

186 to 190 for about 12 years in that 186 to 190 for about 12 years in that tight range of average attendants and tight range of average attendants and tight range of average attendants and now against the human odds that people now against the human odds that people now against the human odds that people said it couldn't be done the church is said it couldn't be done the church is said it couldn't be done the church is at 500 600 and it's and it's storefront at 500 600 and it's and it's storefront at 500 600 and it's and it's storefront church and they're doing things that are church and they're doing things that are church and they're doing things that are even uh me me many times countercultural even uh me me many times countercultural even uh me me many times countercultural means that we do things that U uh uh means that we do things that U uh uh means that we do things that U uh uh that are new he's doing some that are new he's doing some that are new he's doing some countercultural things that are kind of countercultural things that are kind of countercultural things that are kind of retro and and he's and he's reaching retro and and he's and he's reaching retro and and he's and he's reaching some people when they said it could not some people when they said it could not some people when they said it could not be done highly relational uh highly be done highly relational uh highly be done highly relational uh highly connected with people but connected with people but connected with people but methodologically he's he's he's he's methodologically he's he's he's he's methodologically he's he's he's he's just a genius uh and so the the world just a genius uh and so the the world just a genius uh and so the the world does not know Chuck Angel maybe a few does not know Chuck Angel maybe a few does not know Chuck Angel maybe a few more will know him uh after this podcast more will know him uh after this podcast more will know him uh after this podcast but uh that that that is a clear that is but uh that that that is a clear that is but uh that that that is a clear that is a clear example uh that you know the a clear example uh that you know the a clear example uh that you know the blogosphere and the podcast world has blogosphere and the podcast world has blogosphere and the podcast world has some select leaders that are really some select leaders that are really some select leaders that are really putting out some good stuff you're one putting out some good stuff you're one putting out some good stuff you're one of them thank you nson Cersei uh more on of them thank you nson Cersei uh more on of them thank you nson Cersei uh more on the established church level uh is the established church level uh is the established church level uh is putting car newoff you know fantastic putting car newoff you know fantastic putting car newoff you know fantastic great yeah I I I read his stuff uh uh great yeah I I I read his stuff uh uh great yeah I I I read his stuff uh uh continuously though Ron Edmonson doesn't continuously though Ron Edmonson doesn't continuously though Ron Edmonson doesn't in my opinion put out enough of the in my opinion put out enough of the in my opinion put out enough of the information he is one of the best and he information he is one of the best and he information he is one of the best and he has taken a long established church in has taken a long established church in has taken a long established church in Lex Kentucky and turned it around and I Lex Kentucky and turned it around and I Lex Kentucky and turned it around and I read everything that he writes you know read everything that he writes you know read everything that he writes you know what what what I want to see is uh I what what what I want to see is uh I what what what I want to see is uh I want I want to see more of the riches

want I want to see more of the riches want I want to see more of the riches out there because the the field is not out there because the the field is not out there because the the field is not crowded enough uh we we need we need crowded enough uh we we need we need crowded enough uh we we need we need more people speaking into the leadership more people speaking into the leadership more people speaking into the leadership of of churches on a very practical level of of churches on a very practical level of of churches on a very practical level there's a lot of people people speaking there's a lot of people people speaking there's a lot of people people speaking into it on a theological level but on into it on a theological level but on into it on a theological level but on the practical application I'd like to the practical application I'd like to the practical application I'd like to see a lot more those are just a few see a lot more those are just a few see a lot more those are just a few examples oh I appreciate that thank you examples oh I appreciate that thank you examples oh I appreciate that thank you so much yeah some great leaders um you so much yeah some great leaders um you so much yeah some great leaders um you know and a number of those guys actually know and a number of those guys actually know and a number of those guys actually been on the podcast great you know great been on the podcast great you know great been on the podcast great you know great stuff for sure well Tom I really stuff for sure well Tom I really stuff for sure well Tom I really appreciate you being on the show today appreciate you being on the show today appreciate you being on the show today anything you want to say in parting you anything you want to say in parting you anything you want to say in parting you know to our listeners and then how could know to our listeners and then how could know to our listeners and then how could people get in touch I want to make sure people get in touch I want to make sure people get in touch I want to make sure they tune into to your podcast one of they tune into to your podcast one of they tune into to your podcast one of the best I love it it's literally when the best I love it it's literally when the best I love it it's literally when it comes up boom I listen to it so how it comes up boom I listen to it so how it comes up boom I listen to it so how can people get in touch with you okay uh can people get in touch with you okay uh can people get in touch with you okay uh Tom rer and that's a t h m Rainer Tom rer and that's a t h m Rainer Tom rer and that's a t h m Rainer there's another story into it Tom t h m there's another story into it Tom t h m there's another story into it Tom t h m r a i n r.com is the blog site and if r a i n r.com is the blog site and if r a i n r.com is the blog site and if you go to the blog site uh we're we will you go to the blog site uh we're we will you go to the blog site uh we're we will be posting the podcast there as well of be posting the podcast there as well of be posting the podcast there as well of course it's an iTunes podcast as well as course it's an iTunes podcast as well as course it's an iTunes podcast as well as other servers and Rainer on the other servers and Rainer on the other servers and Rainer on the leadership is the name of it but Tom leadership is the name of it but Tom leadership is the name of it but Tom r.com is the main way and and Rich uh my r.com is the main way and and Rich uh my r.com is the main way and and Rich uh my my heart is for pastors and for other my heart is for pastors and for other my heart is for pastors and for other church leaders and I I think the reason church leaders and I I think the reason church leaders and I I think the reason is I was such a lousy one that I that I is I was such a lousy one that I that I is I was such a lousy one that I that I that I want the best for them and I and that I want the best for them and I and that I want the best for them and I and I I've I've experienced the pain a lot I I've I've experienced the pain a lot I I've I've experienced the pain a lot of it a lot of it self-inflicted and uh of it a lot of it self-inflicted and uh of it a lot of it self-inflicted and uh my message for them is uh invest in the my message for them is uh invest in the my message for them is uh invest in the people love them unconditionally and people love them unconditionally and people love them unconditionally and have a long haul view even if it doesn't have a long haul view even if it doesn't have a long haul view even if it doesn't end up being a longterm Pastor it and end up being a longterm Pastor it and end up being a longterm Pastor it and just just see what God can do and don't just just see what God can do and don't just just see what God can do and don't forget the power of prayer and uh

forget the power of prayer and uh forget the power of prayer and uh organizing your people that uh they may organizing your people that uh they may organizing your people that uh they may be more intentional about prayer as well be more intentional about prayer as well be more intentional about prayer as well thank you so much Tom really appreciate thank you so much Tom really appreciate thank you so much Tom really appreciate you be on the show hope you have a great you be on the show hope you have a great you be on the show hope you have a great rest your day thanks Rich been great to rest your day thanks Rich been great to rest your day thanks Rich been great to be here thank you for tuning in to this be here thank you for tuning in to this be here thank you for tuning in to this week's unseminary podcast don't be shy week's unseminary podcast don't be shy week's unseminary podcast don't be shy we'd love to connect check out we'd love to connect check out we'd love to connect check out unseminary inbox you can sign up at unseminary inbox you can sign up at unseminary inbox you can sign up at unseminary dcom and we'll send you unseminary dcom and we'll send you unseminary dcom and we'll send you helpful training resources every week helpful training resources every week helpful training resources every week plus you'll gain immediate access to our plus you'll gain immediate access to our plus you'll gain immediate access to our exclusive members area with tons of exclusive members area with tons of exclusive members area with tons of resources you can use connect with Rich resources you can use connect with Rich resources you can use connect with Rich on Twitter at Rich Birch or through on Twitter at Rich Birch or through on Twitter at Rich Birch or through email rich unseminary dcom don't forget email rich unseminary dcom don't forget email rich unseminary dcom don't forget to check out the show notes for this to check out the show notes for this to check out the show notes for this episode at unseminary dcom it includes episode at unseminary dcom it includes episode at unseminary dcom it includes links to what we talked about today and links to what we talked about today and links to what we talked about today and more leave a comment we'd love to hear more leave a comment we'd love to hear more leave a comment we'd love to hear from you did you enjoy today's episode from you did you enjoy today's episode from you did you enjoy today's episode drop by iTunes and leave a review Thanks drop by iTunes and leave a review Thanks drop by iTunes and leave a review Thanks again for tuning in to this week's again for tuning in to this week's again for tuning in to this week's unseminary podcast join us next week unseminary podcast join us next week unseminary podcast join us next week when we'll learn more stuff we wish they when we'll learn more stuff we wish they when we'll learn more stuff we wish they taught in taught in taught in seminary