Jim Tomberlin & Tim Cool on Current Trends in Church Facilities

L ladies and gentlemen welcome to the L ladies and gentlemen welcome to the unseminary podcast are you looking for unseminary podcast are you looking for unseminary podcast are you looking for practical Ministry help to drive your practical Ministry help to drive your practical Ministry help to drive your ministry further faster have a sinking ministry further faster have a sinking ministry further faster have a sinking feeling that your ministry training feeling that your ministry training feeling that your ministry training didn't prepare you for the real world didn't prepare you for the real world didn't prepare you for the real world hey you're not alone join thousands of hey you're not alone join thousands of hey you're not alone join thousands of others in pursuit of stuff that we wish others in pursuit of stuff that we wish others in pursuit of stuff that we wish they had taught in seminary buckle up they had taught in seminary buckle up they had taught in seminary buckle up and let's get started with this week's and let's get started with this week's and let's get started with this week's unseminary unseminary unseminary podcast all right well welcome to the podcast all right well welcome to the podcast all right well welcome to the unseminary podcast my name's Rich Burch unseminary podcast my name's Rich Burch unseminary podcast my name's Rich Burch the host here don't even know my own the host here don't even know my own the host here don't even know my own name this morning my name is Rich Burch name this morning my name is Rich Burch name this morning my name is Rich Burch the host here uh at the podcast and the host here uh at the podcast and the host here uh at the podcast and we're just so glad that youve decided to we're just so glad that youve decided to we're just so glad that youve decided to take some time out to listen in today take some time out to listen in today take some time out to listen in today we've got a great conversation lined up we've got a great conversation lined up we've got a great conversation lined up I'm super excited uh to have Jim I'm super excited uh to have Jim I'm super excited uh to have Jim tomberland a friend of mine and a new tomberland a friend of mine and a new tomberland a friend of mine and a new friend Tim Co cool uh spending some time friend Tim Co cool uh spending some time friend Tim Co cool uh spending some time with us today talking about a brand new with us today talking about a brand new with us today talking about a brand new book I'm looking forward to diving in book I'm looking forward to diving in book I'm looking forward to diving in welcome to the show guys thanks Rich welcome to the show guys thanks Rich welcome to the show guys thanks Rich with you rich you we're not just a with you rich you we're not just a with you rich you we're not just a friend we're an old friend you been friend we're an old friend you been friend we're an old friend you been doing this thing together for a number doing this thing together for a number doing this thing together for a number of years and it's long time it's true of years and it's long time it's true of years and it's long time it's true it's true well T Tim why don't we let it's true well T Tim why don't we let it's true well T Tim why don't we let you go first why don't you tell us a you go first why don't you tell us a you go first why don't you tell us a little bit about who is Tim cool why and little bit about who is Tim cool why and little bit about who is Tim cool why and why did you get such a great name know why did you get such a great name know why did you get such a great name know I'm not quite sure why God allowed my I'm not quite sure why God allowed my I'm not quite sure why God allowed my parents to have the last name cool but parents to have the last name cool but parents to have the last name cool but it it is it is truly a cool name to have it it is it is truly a cool name to have it it is it is truly a cool name to have and I've got you know I've got cool kids and I've got you know I've got cool kids and I've got you know I've got cool kids and a cool wife and we live in a cool and a cool wife and we live in a cool and a cool wife and we live in a cool house and you know what could be better house and you know what could be better house and you know what could be better and and and I work for cool solutions and and and I work for cool solutions and and and I work for cool solutions group nice and uh so you know it I tell group nice and uh so you know it I tell group nice and uh so you know it I tell you what Rich it has been so cool uh you you what Rich it has been so cool uh you you what Rich it has been so cool uh you know I've I've been doing this now 28 know I've I've been doing this now 28 know I've I've been doing this now 28 years uh working with churches in years uh working with churches in years uh working with churches in related to their facilities helping them related to their facilities helping them related to their facilities helping them think through what's the best way to

think through what's the best way to think through what's the best way to utilize you know the tools that God's utilize you know the tools that God's utilize you know the tools that God's entrusted to them and then how do they entrusted to them and then how do they entrusted to them and then how do they take care of those tools long term as take care of those tools long term as take care of those tools long term as well so it's a combination of of the well so it's a combination of of the well so it's a combination of of the planning uh building and then how do you planning uh building and then how do you planning uh building and then how do you take care of the buildings you know that take care of the buildings you know that take care of the buildings you know that God's entrusted to you nice very cool God's entrusted to you nice very cool God's entrusted to you nice very cool Jim why don't you give us your story how Jim why don't you give us your story how Jim why don't you give us your story how do you you know how do you describe do you you know how do you describe do you you know how do you describe yourself you call yourself the yourself you call yourself the yourself you call yourself the multi-site guy uh but what uh give us multi-site guy uh but what uh give us multi-site guy uh but what uh give us the Jim tomberland story well Rich you the Jim tomberland story well Rich you the Jim tomberland story well Rich you know basically my journey um as know basically my journey um as know basically my journey um as multi-site guy began as a pastor I was multi-site guy began as a pastor I was multi-site guy began as a pastor I was uh a pastor for nearly 30 years three uh a pastor for nearly 30 years three uh a pastor for nearly 30 years three decades and uh had the privilege of decades and uh had the privilege of decades and uh had the privilege of being one of the early Pioneers in the being one of the early Pioneers in the being one of the early Pioneers in the whole multi-site church movement that's whole multi-site church movement that's whole multi-site church movement that's what got me invited to leave my what got me invited to leave my what got me invited to leave my wonderful Church in Colorado Springs wonderful Church in Colorado Springs wonderful Church in Colorado Springs Woodman Valley Chapel to where where my Woodman Valley Chapel to where where my Woodman Valley Chapel to where where my journey with multi-site church started journey with multi-site church started journey with multi-site church started uh to come to Chicago to develop the uh to come to Chicago to develop the uh to come to Chicago to develop the model there at Willow Creek and five model there at Willow Creek and five model there at Willow Creek and five years later four campuses later and at years later four campuses later and at years later four campuses later and at the front end of that whole movement um the front end of that whole movement um the front end of that whole movement um I found myself being Sol SE out sought I found myself being Sol SE out sought I found myself being Sol SE out sought out to um help churches uh how do you do out to um help churches uh how do you do out to um help churches uh how do you do this multi sight thing so for the last this multi sight thing so for the last this multi sight thing so for the last 10 years I went full-time as a 10 years I went full-time as a 10 years I went full-time as a consultant 10 years ago and uh relocated consultant 10 years ago and uh relocated consultant 10 years ago and uh relocated to a nice warm place in Phoenix Arizona to a nice warm place in Phoenix Arizona to a nice warm place in Phoenix Arizona Scottdale and have been working and Scottdale and have been working and Scottdale and have been working and serving the church around the country serving the church around the country serving the church around the country and beyond for the last 10 years in and beyond for the last 10 years in and beyond for the last 10 years in helping churches discern is multi-site helping churches discern is multi-site helping churches discern is multi-site right for us and if it is how do you do right for us and if it is how do you do right for us and if it is how do you do it uh that is that is morphed in some it uh that is that is morphed in some it uh that is that is morphed in some other uh has created some other waves other uh has created some other waves other uh has created some other waves found ourselves doing a lot of uh um found ourselves doing a lot of uh um found ourselves doing a lot of uh um Consulting on mergers multi- sighting

Consulting on mergers multi- sighting Consulting on mergers multi- sighting through mergers about over a third of through mergers about over a third of through mergers about over a third of all the multi-site campuses come through all the multi-site campuses come through all the multi-site campuses come through as a result of a merger and so I'm doing as a result of a merger and so I'm doing as a result of a merger and so I'm doing a lot of this merger Consulting a lot of this merger Consulting a lot of this merger Consulting multi-site Consulting and when you're multi-site Consulting and when you're multi-site Consulting and when you're talking about growing churches I have talking about growing churches I have talking about growing churches I have the privilege of working with growing the privilege of working with growing the privilege of working with growing the the on the most part the exciting the the on the most part the exciting the the on the most part the exciting Dynamic growing churches uh churches um Dynamic growing churches uh churches um Dynamic growing churches uh churches um have a local expression and they need have a local expression and they need have a local expression and they need facilities to meet in and so I found facilities to meet in and so I found facilities to meet in and so I found myself uh having a lot of uh myself uh having a lot of uh myself uh having a lot of uh conversations and uh about uh what where conversations and uh about uh what where conversations and uh about uh what where where should we start our campuses or where should we start our campuses or where should we start our campuses or where should we relocate uh where do we where should we relocate uh where do we where should we relocate uh where do we start a church as a church planter and start a church as a church planter and start a church as a church planter and um that's a facility issues and as we've um that's a facility issues and as we've um that's a facility issues and as we've talked about in our book probably the talked about in our book probably the talked about in our book probably the most expensive decision church leaders most expensive decision church leaders most expensive decision church leaders will ever make in their Ministry is will ever make in their Ministry is will ever make in their Ministry is related to buildings and Facilities we related to buildings and Facilities we related to buildings and Facilities we know that church buildings don't uh know that church buildings don't uh know that church buildings don't uh don't reach people people reach people don't reach people people reach people don't reach people people reach people but uh Jesus said wherever two we but uh Jesus said wherever two we but uh Jesus said wherever two we Gathering his name uh there there he is Gathering his name uh there there he is Gathering his name uh there there he is in the midst and that's a place and so in the midst and that's a place and so in the midst and that's a place and so there's there is a real physical place there's there is a real physical place there's there is a real physical place and so Church locality is all about and so Church locality is all about and so Church locality is all about facilities and location and so we try to facilities and location and so we try to facilities and location and so we try to answer what's where's the best place to answer what's where's the best place to answer what's where's the best place to meet uh what's the guidelines on what meet uh what's the guidelines on what meet uh what's the guidelines on what kind of facilities Etc Tim I've had the kind of facilities Etc Tim I've had the kind of facilities Etc Tim I've had the privilege of working with over the years privilege of working with over the years privilege of working with over the years as well is a specialist in so many in as well is a specialist in so many in as well is a specialist in so many in that whole area arena anyway we found that whole area arena anyway we found that whole area arena anyway we found ourselves just having a lot of ourselves just having a lot of ourselves just having a lot of conversations and thought why don't we conversations and thought why don't we conversations and thought why don't we write a book about this and kind of write a book about this and kind of write a book about this and kind of share what we've or at least compile a share what we've or at least compile a share what we've or at least compile a book of what we've been writing about

book of what we've been writing about book of what we've been writing about and and seeing very cool now the name of and and seeing very cool now the name of and and seeing very cool now the name of your book is church locality new rules your book is church locality new rules your book is church locality new rules for church buildings in a multi-site for church buildings in a multi-site for church buildings in a multi-site church planting and Giga Church World church planting and Giga Church World church planting and Giga Church World wow that's a that's a mouthful locality wow that's a that's a mouthful locality wow that's a that's a mouthful locality Church you know locality tell tell me Church you know locality tell tell me Church you know locality tell tell me what does that word mean what is this what does that word mean what is this what does that word mean what is this you know what's this book all about go you know what's this book all about go you know what's this book all about go ahead jump in Tim yeah locality is kind ahead jump in Tim yeah locality is kind ahead jump in Tim yeah locality is kind of a play on words between location and of a play on words between location and of a play on words between location and facility um you know we we all have to facility um you know we we all have to facility um you know we we all have to have a place to worship I I did a uh a have a place to worship I I did a uh a have a place to worship I I did a uh a uh a real informal uh survey with um Sam uh a real informal uh survey with um Sam uh a real informal uh survey with um Sam rer and I I asked T and several other rer and I I asked T and several other rer and I I asked T and several other guys how many churches in America meet guys how many churches in America meet guys how many churches in America meet in a in a in a building and and the best we can tell is building and and the best we can tell is building and and the best we can tell is 99 and 4400s of churches meet in a 99 and 4400s of churches meet in a 99 and 4400s of churches meet in a building even if you're a home Church building even if you're a home Church building even if you're a home Church you meet in a building the building Y you meet in a building the building Y you meet in a building the building Y and if you're an Internet Church your and if you're an Internet Church your and if you're an Internet Church your servers are in a building right servers are in a building right servers are in a building right so knowing that facilities are are you so knowing that facilities are are you so knowing that facilities are are you know one of your most expensive know one of your most expensive know one of your most expensive decisions and it's generally at least decisions and it's generally at least decisions and it's generally at least your second biggest line item in your your second biggest line item in your your second biggest line item in your church budget after your your um church budget after your your um church budget after your your um employees and your employees and your employees and your FTE um how how can churches best think FTE um how how can churches best think FTE um how how can churches best think through their location tied to through their location tied to through their location tied to facilities related to them being a tool facilities related to them being a tool facilities related to them being a tool not just a building right you know not just a building right you know not just a building right you know they're they're not just a means to they they're they're not just a means to they they're they're not just a means to they are in sorts a means to an end but they are in sorts a means to an end but they are in sorts a means to an end but they can also be a detrimental means to a can also be a detrimental means to a can also be a detrimental means to a deterioration if it's not the right

deterioration if it's not the right deterioration if it's not the right locality it's not the right location it locality it's not the right location it locality it's not the right location it just becomes a problem right and so we just becomes a problem right and so we just becomes a problem right and so we wanted to be able to provide guidelines wanted to be able to provide guidelines wanted to be able to provide guidelines in fact Jim and I have laughed about in fact Jim and I have laughed about in fact Jim and I have laughed about this when Jim first approached me almost this when Jim first approached me almost this when Jim first approached me almost a year ago we were we were at a retreat a year ago we were we were at a retreat a year ago we were we were at a retreat together uh this started off to be a together uh this started off to be a together uh this started off to be a white paper that turned into an ebook white paper that turned into an ebook white paper that turned into an ebook that then turned into a full-fledged that then turned into a full-fledged that then turned into a full-fledged book right and um it because just so book right and um it because just so book right and um it because just so much information that's not available to much information that's not available to much information that's not available to whether you're a church planter whether you're a church planter whether you're a church planter multi-site or even if you're just a multi-site or even if you're just a multi-site or even if you're just a single location Church looking to move single location Church looking to move single location Church looking to move out of a school for the first time out of a school for the first time out of a school for the first time there's not any good information as to there's not any good information as to there's not any good information as to what's our options and and how do we what's our options and and how do we what's our options and and how do we know what's the good options and bad know what's the good options and bad know what's the good options and bad options absolutely and I I feel like I options absolutely and I I feel like I options absolutely and I I feel like I spend a uh significant portion of our spend a uh significant portion of our spend a uh significant portion of our time my time specifically on building time my time specifically on building time my time specifically on building stuff we're multi-site and we've got stuff we're multi-site and we've got stuff we're multi-site and we've got building issues all across the board building issues all across the board building issues all across the board basically at all our campuses um so so basically at all our campuses um so so basically at all our campuses um so so this book is of you know huge interest this book is of you know huge interest this book is of you know huge interest actually we bought it it's one of those actually we bought it it's one of those actually we bought it it's one of those things we've been reading as a things we've been reading as a things we've been reading as a leadership team um so what are some leadership team um so what are some leadership team um so what are some misconceptions about church buildings misconceptions about church buildings misconceptions about church buildings Jim what are some things that might be Jim what are some things that might be Jim what are some things that might be floating out there that people are like floating out there that people are like floating out there that people are like ah there maybe held truths that aren't ah there maybe held truths that aren't ah there maybe held truths that aren't really true what are some misconceptions really true what are some misconceptions really true what are some misconceptions well before I jump into that I wanted to well before I jump into that I wanted to well before I jump into that I wanted to also say you know our book really is a also say you know our book really is a also say you know our book really is a compilation of a number of blog postings compilation of a number of blog postings compilation of a number of blog postings and specific focused uh writings and specific focused uh writings and specific focused uh writings articles about things related to articles about things related to articles about things related to facilities but Tim and I were the facilities but Tim and I were the facilities but Tim and I were the biggest cont to the book but the third biggest cont to the book but the third biggest cont to the book but the third largest contributor was was you rich largest contributor was was you rich largest contributor was was you rich Birch several of our chapters are from

Birch several of our chapters are from Birch several of our chapters are from you hey I got my free book out of it so you hey I got my free book out of it so you hey I got my free book out of it so that's good that's good that's good so anyway and we appreciate that so was so anyway and we appreciate that so was so anyway and we appreciate that so was great happy to help you know some of the great happy to help you know some of the great happy to help you know some of the misconceptions um you know one really misconceptions um you know one really misconceptions um you know one really thing that started stimulated my thing that started stimulated my thing that started stimulated my thinking a couple years ago about this a thinking a couple years ago about this a thinking a couple years ago about this a book that I read that just had a book that I read that just had a book that I read that just had a profound impact upon me was uh Ken fet's profound impact upon me was uh Ken fet's profound impact upon me was uh Ken fet's book um uh uh um six book um uh uh um six book um uh uh um six pillars the the what was that the pillars the the what was that the pillars the the what was that the pillars book yeah yeah that's that the pillars book yeah yeah that's that the pillars book yeah yeah that's that the um I think of it a minute um I just um I think of it a minute um I just um I think of it a minute um I just think but it's all it's a novel all think but it's all it's a novel all think but it's all it's a novel all about the writing the building a about the writing the building a about the writing the building a historical novel all about historical novel all about historical novel all about building uh Pillars of the Earth that's building uh Pillars of the Earth that's building uh Pillars of the Earth that's the name of the book Pillars of the the name of the book Pillars of the the name of the book Pillars of the Earth about the building of a cathedral Earth about the building of a cathedral Earth about the building of a cathedral in the Middle Ages and uh and is a very in the Middle Ages and uh and is a very in the Middle Ages and uh and is a very you know well-written thousand page book you know well-written thousand page book you know well-written thousand page book and just all the Dynamics and and issues and just all the Dynamics and and issues and just all the Dynamics and and issues that were going on that brought about that were going on that brought about that were going on that brought about the building of these great cathedrals the building of these great cathedrals the building of these great cathedrals in Europe right uh and they were lot in Europe right uh and they were lot in Europe right uh and they were lot they were economic they were political they were economic they were political they were economic they were political they were spiritual uh and really we've they were spiritual uh and really we've they were spiritual uh and really we've been the the the guidelines and the um been the the the guidelines and the um been the the the guidelines and the um principles that produce those great principles that produce those great principles that produce those great Cathedrals have been really the the the Cathedrals have been really the the the Cathedrals have been really the the the guidelines that we've been operating guidelines that we've been operating guidelines that we've been operating churches building churches on for a churches building churches on for a churches building churches on for a millennium right but all that's changed millennium right but all that's changed millennium right but all that's changed began all that's really changed in the began all that's really changed in the began all that's really changed in the last 20 years and and so that was one of last 20 years and and so that was one of last 20 years and and so that was one of I think you know there's some new rules I think you know there's some new rules I think you know there's some new rules about church buildings right but I think about church buildings right but I think about church buildings right but I think some of the myths that we often operated some of the myths that we often operated some of the myths that we often operated under in the last generation or so under in the last generation or so under in the last generation or so probably one of the biggest ones if we probably one of the biggest ones if we probably one of the biggest ones if we build it they will come right and uh and

build it they will come right and uh and build it they will come right and uh and I like to say that you know um we built I like to say that you know um we built I like to say that you know um we built these big huge mega church campuses in these big huge mega church campuses in these big huge mega church campuses in the 70s 80s the 70s 80s the 70s 80s 90s uh in in America why because we 90s uh in in America why because we 90s uh in in America why because we could right the money was there the the could right the money was there the the could right the money was there the the the impetus was there the motivation was the impetus was there the motivation was the impetus was there the motivation was there uh but the recession really has there uh but the recession really has there uh but the recession really has changed Chang that thinking dramatically changed Chang that thinking dramatically changed Chang that thinking dramatically as well as some other factors which we as well as some other factors which we as well as some other factors which we talk about in a few moments some other talk about in a few moments some other talk about in a few moments some other things that have changed these rules but things that have changed these rules but things that have changed these rules but if we build it they will come but if we build it they will come but if we build it they will come but another another misconception is that's another another misconception is that's another another misconception is that's a sort of a variation of that is if we a sort of a variation of that is if we a sort of a variation of that is if we launch it they will come this is this is launch it they will come this is this is launch it they will come this is this is a danger of multi- sighting church is a danger of multi- sighting church is a danger of multi- sighting church is hey we got a great Pastor great Church hey we got a great Pastor great Church hey we got a great Pastor great Church Great Communicator great Ministries and Great Communicator great Ministries and Great Communicator great Ministries and we're maxed out in our one location if we're maxed out in our one location if we're maxed out in our one location if we just go start open up a theater or we just go start open up a theater or we just go start open up a theater or school or another building uh you know school or another building uh you know school or another building uh you know 20 minutes away people just flock there 20 minutes away people just flock there 20 minutes away people just flock there just because we have have all these just because we have have all these just because we have have all these great things going on no you still got great things going on no you still got great things going on no you still got to do the basic uh Church 101 good hard to do the basic uh Church 101 good hard to do the basic uh Church 101 good hard work of loving and serving your work of loving and serving your work of loving and serving your community right uh and and all that but community right uh and and all that but community right uh and and all that but but you still need facilities and all but you still need facilities and all but you still need facilities and all that sort of thing so these are a couple that sort of thing so these are a couple that sort of thing so these are a couple of the rules that obviously Mis of the rules that obviously Mis of the rules that obviously Mis misconceptions I think the other thing misconceptions I think the other thing misconceptions I think the other thing too is that buildings Reach people you too is that buildings Reach people you too is that buildings Reach people you know if we just build this fabulous know if we just build this fabulous know if we just build this fabulous building more people will come just building more people will come just building more people will come just because more will come because the because more will come because the because more will come because the building will overwhelm them maybe in building will overwhelm them maybe in building will overwhelm them maybe in sometime in in the past I don't know sometime in in the past I don't know sometime in in the past I don't know that that was ever true but um that that that that was ever true but um that that that that was ever true but um that that you know buildings don't reach people you know buildings don't reach people you know buildings don't reach people people reach people right and uh people reach people right and uh people reach people right and uh buildings are tools they're a means to buildings are tools they're a means to buildings are tools they're a means to the end they're not the end game and I the end they're not the end game and I the end they're not the end game and I think one of the one of the unfortunate think one of the one of the unfortunate think one of the one of the unfortunate realities I think of Western

realities I think of Western realities I think of Western Christianity is that we have put so much Christianity is that we have put so much Christianity is that we have put so much emphasis on we've defined success in emphasis on we've defined success in emphasis on we've defined success in church work as a building right church church work as a building right church church work as a building right church building the goal is to get to a building the goal is to get to a building the goal is to get to a building and the bigger the building the building and the bigger the building the building and the bigger the building the the greater the success and yet uh and the greater the success and yet uh and the greater the success and yet uh and you know a big large building will will you know a big large building will will you know a big large building will will serve a growing church under a dynamic serve a growing church under a dynamic serve a growing church under a dynamic leader for maybe a gener a decade or two leader for maybe a gener a decade or two leader for maybe a gener a decade or two or three while that Pastor is there but or three while that Pastor is there but or three while that Pastor is there but often uh um the next the next round the often uh um the next the next round the often uh um the next the next round the Next Generation that that large building Next Generation that that large building Next Generation that that large building becomes unfortunately an albatross becomes unfortunately an albatross becomes unfortunately an albatross around their neck something they can't around their neck something they can't around their neck something they can't afford something they can't sustain it's afford something they can't sustain it's afford something they can't sustain it's why we have a lot of downtown Urban why we have a lot of downtown Urban why we have a lot of downtown Urban Cathedrals empty you know that sort of Cathedrals empty you know that sort of Cathedrals empty you know that sort of thing I think in the next decade we're thing I think in the next decade we're thing I think in the next decade we're going to see a lot of super mega going to see a lot of super mega going to see a lot of super mega campuses uh of mega churches that have campuses uh of mega churches that have campuses uh of mega churches that have overbuilt and will not be able tostain overbuilt and will not be able tostain overbuilt and will not be able tostain sustain that now the Church movement is sustain that now the Church movement is sustain that now the Church movement is not dying matter of fact we're going not dying matter of fact we're going not dying matter of fact we're going into a giga Church world right which into a giga Church world right which into a giga Church world right which Giga church is a new definition a new Giga church is a new definition a new Giga church is a new definition a new new word to describe churches that have new word to describe churches that have new word to describe churches that have over 10,000 in attendance on a given over 10,000 in attendance on a given over 10,000 in attendance on a given weekend a mega church being over 2,000 weekend a mega church being over 2,000 weekend a mega church being over 2,000 and now and from our latest research uh and now and from our latest research uh and now and from our latest research uh Outreach magazine has defined or Outreach magazine has defined or Outreach magazine has defined or described surfaced 72 Giga churches in described surfaced 72 Giga churches in described surfaced 72 Giga churches in America today America today America today wow most of those are multi-site wow most of those are multi-site wow most of those are multi-site churches right um and that's reason why churches right um and that's reason why churches right um and that's reason why they can get that big because they're they can get that big because they're they can get that big because they're not limited to a building now not limited to a building now not limited to a building now MH yeah it's it's been amazing to watch MH yeah it's it's been amazing to watch MH yeah it's it's been amazing to watch you know I I noted recently um that it you know I I noted recently um that it you know I I noted recently um that it seems like those churches that are at seems like those churches that are at seems like those churches that are at the very top um you know the like I'm

the very top um you know the like I'm the very top um you know the like I'm thinking new spring like they don't have thinking new spring like they don't have thinking new spring like they don't have a massive you know like 10,000 seat room a massive you know like 10,000 seat room a massive you know like 10,000 seat room somewhere you know they have a somewhere you know they have a somewhere you know they have a multiplicity of rooms across that seems multiplicity of rooms across that seems multiplicity of rooms across that seems to be at least from the Layman's to be at least from the Layman's to be at least from the Layman's perspective that seems to be you know perspective that seems to be you know perspective that seems to be you know the trend you know Tim what are some of the trend you know Tim what are some of the trend you know Tim what are some of the new rules kind of you're obviously the new rules kind of you're obviously the new rules kind of you're obviously in the trenches talking to a lot of in the trenches talking to a lot of in the trenches talking to a lot of churches working with a lot of churches churches working with a lot of churches churches working with a lot of churches um that are building buildings what are um that are building buildings what are um that are building buildings what are some of those kind of new rules some of those kind of new rules some of those kind of new rules concerning Church uh facilities what are concerning Church uh facilities what are concerning Church uh facilities what are people building today yeah people you people building today yeah people you people building today yeah people you know for example you mentioned new know for example you mentioned new know for example you mentioned new spring I'm uh I attend uh Elevation spring I'm uh I attend uh Elevation spring I'm uh I attend uh Elevation Church in Charlotte great yeah our Church in Charlotte great yeah our Church in Charlotte great yeah our biggest our biggest campus is 1100 seats biggest our biggest campus is 1100 seats biggest our biggest campus is 1100 seats right we run 25,000 people on a weekend right we run 25,000 people on a weekend right we run 25,000 people on a weekend with the largest Worship Center being with the largest Worship Center being with the largest Worship Center being 1100 seats right um we do you know lots 1100 seats right um we do you know lots 1100 seats right um we do you know lots of services uh but the idea was you know of services uh but the idea was you know of services uh but the idea was you know why not have campuses that are only 30 why not have campuses that are only 30 why not have campuses that are only 30 35,000 square feet so you're investing 5 35,000 square feet so you're investing 5 35,000 square feet so you're investing 5 six s million per campus if you're six s million per campus if you're six s million per campus if you're owning it and buying it or building it owning it and buying it or building it owning it and buying it or building it um but that makes a whole lot better um but that makes a whole lot better um but that makes a whole lot better sense to be able to run a campus that is sense to be able to run a campus that is sense to be able to run a campus that is uh you know if you're running four uh you know if you're running four uh you know if you're running four services and you're pushing 3500 to services and you're pushing 3500 to services and you're pushing 3500 to 4,000 per location per 4,000 per location per 4,000 per location per service and most of these multi sites service and most of these multi sites service and most of these multi sites when you're in that kind of tight when you're in that kind of tight when you're in that kind of tight quarters you're getting a higher quarters you're getting a higher quarters you're getting a higher percentage of seats being covered with percentage of seats being covered with percentage of seats being covered with butts on Sunday right so the old 80% butts on Sunday right so the old 80% butts on Sunday right so the old 80% rule doesn't apply in those kind of rule doesn't apply in those kind of rule doesn't apply in those kind of settings anymore you're getting 90 95 settings anymore you're getting 90 95 settings anymore you're getting 90 95 even pushing 99% total coverage of seats even pushing 99% total coverage of seats even pushing 99% total coverage of seats to to people that kind of thing well to to people that kind of thing well to to people that kind of thing well yeah elevation is that's a perfect

yeah elevation is that's a perfect yeah elevation is that's a perfect example I think that um you know I don't example I think that um you know I don't example I think that um you know I don't want people to miss what you said there want people to miss what you said there want people to miss what you said there to be you know elevation to run 255,000 to be you know elevation to run 255,000 to be you know elevation to run 255,000 you know people on a weekend and to have you know people on a weekend and to have you know people on a weekend and to have the largest room be 1100 seats which is the largest room be 1100 seats which is the largest room be 1100 seats which is not a large room like that's it's a big not a large room like that's it's a big not a large room like that's it's a big room but that's not a massive room um room but that's not a massive room um room but that's not a massive room um you know to build that's incredible yeah you know to build that's incredible yeah you know to build that's incredible yeah any any other any any other any any other Trends yeah the the other Trends are are Trends yeah the the other Trends are are Trends yeah the the other Trends are are coming out of the recession we've seen coming out of the recession we've seen coming out of the recession we've seen more and more of the you know the big more and more of the you know the big more and more of the you know the big box Church um and and that's because box Church um and and that's because box Church um and and that's because there was so much empty retail right and there was so much empty retail right and there was so much empty retail right and it doesn't didn't really matter whether it doesn't didn't really matter whether it doesn't didn't really matter whether or not I was in you know um kalamazo or not I was in you know um kalamazo or not I was in you know um kalamazo Michigan or if I was in Orlando there Michigan or if I was in Orlando there Michigan or if I was in Orlando there was a lot of empty retail right and so was a lot of empty retail right and so was a lot of empty retail right and so that became the natural gravitation that became the natural gravitation that became the natural gravitation Point particularly for planners and Point particularly for planners and Point particularly for planners and multi-site is you know why go by land um multi-site is you know why go by land um multi-site is you know why go by land um and one of the examples we used in the and one of the examples we used in the and one of the examples we used in the book was was showing how by going into a book was was showing how by going into a book was was showing how by going into a shopping center you don't have to do the shopping center you don't have to do the shopping center you don't have to do the site work you don't have to do the site work you don't have to do the site work you don't have to do the parking lot you don't have to do all of parking lot you don't have to do all of parking lot you don't have to do all of those infrastructural type things that those infrastructural type things that those infrastructural type things that could run 40 to 50% of the cost of a could run 40 to 50% of the cost of a could run 40 to 50% of the cost of a project right the downside of that is project right the downside of that is project right the downside of that is people just assume because it's an old people just assume because it's an old people just assume because it's an old retail store that it has enough parking retail store that it has enough parking retail store that it has enough parking and it's properly sprinkled and has air and it's properly sprinkled and has air and it's properly sprinkled and has air conditioning and so they they conditioning and so they they conditioning and so they they misconceive and this is going back to misconceive and this is going back to misconceive and this is going back to Jim's misconceptions they misconceive as Jim's misconceptions they misconceive as Jim's misconceptions they misconceive as to what it really is going to cost them to what it really is going to cost them to what it really is going to cost them to get in that big box store right and to get in that big box store right and to get in that big box store right and they undershoot it right okay very cool they undershoot it right okay very cool they undershoot it right okay very cool now are there besides the big box Trend now are there besides the big box Trend now are there besides the big box Trend you know Jim are there other from your you know Jim are there other from your you know Jim are there other from your Vantage Point you've been through you Vantage Point you've been through you Vantage Point you've been through you know you've work you worked at Willow

know you've work you worked at Willow know you've work you worked at Willow who you know they have the big room uh who you know they have the big room uh who you know they have the big room uh and they have multiple smaller locations and they have multiple smaller locations and they have multiple smaller locations are there other trends that you're are there other trends that you're are there other trends that you're you're seeing as you're you know you're seeing as you're you know you're seeing as you're you know interacting with your clients you know interacting with your clients you know interacting with your clients you know across the country well I think just to across the country well I think just to across the country well I think just to build on what Tim was saying the one build on what Tim was saying the one build on what Tim was saying the one thing is that we're seeing um smaller thing is that we're seeing um smaller thing is that we're seeing um smaller facilities with multip facilities with multip facilities with multip venues you know when a church for venues you know when a church for venues you know when a church for example is saying we we want to build a example is saying we we want to build a example is saying we we want to build a 2,000 seat 2,000 seat 2,000 seat Auditorium I think the ideal size is is Auditorium I think the ideal size is is Auditorium I think the ideal size is is around 12 to 1500 seats maximum for most around 12 to 1500 seats maximum for most around 12 to 1500 seats maximum for most churches but I but some cities have churches but I but some cities have churches but I but some cities have higher people density Etc I say you know higher people density Etc I say you know higher people density Etc I say you know if you don't put the concept of multi- if you don't put the concept of multi- if you don't put the concept of multi- ciding is don't put all your eggs in one ciding is don't put all your eggs in one ciding is don't put all your eggs in one location and even in that one location location and even in that one location location and even in that one location if you're going to have a lot of seats if you're going to have a lot of seats if you're going to have a lot of seats don't put them all in one room uh if don't put them all in one room uh if don't put them all in one room uh if you're going to have 1,800 seats 1500 you're going to have 1,800 seats 1500 you're going to have 1,800 seats 1500 seats maybe you got to do a, one room seats maybe you got to do a, one room seats maybe you got to do a, one room and 500 another and then that becomes and 500 another and then that becomes and 500 another and then that becomes that gives you more options more that gives you more options more that gives you more options more flexibility for worship styles for uh flexibility for worship styles for uh flexibility for worship styles for uh U you know different language groups or U you know different language groups or U you know different language groups or whatever you know it gives you a lot whatever you know it gives you a lot whatever you know it gives you a lot more options so I think there's that one more options so I think there's that one more options so I think there's that one I to your point the The Big Box yeah I to your point the The Big Box yeah I to your point the The Big Box yeah very few churches multi-site churches very few churches multi-site churches very few churches multi-site churches are buying land and building buildings are buying land and building buildings are buying land and building buildings now we're starting to see maybe a few now we're starting to see maybe a few now we're starting to see maybe a few start to do that after 10 15 years of start to do that after 10 15 years of start to do that after 10 15 years of being successful and are rented for being successful and are rented for being successful and are rented for space and now let's own our space and um space and now let's own our space and um space and now let's own our space and um that may make more sense but um uh but that may make more sense but um uh but that may make more sense but um uh but we're seeing all kinds of use usage of we're seeing all kinds of use usage of we're seeing all kinds of use usage of all different kinds of facilities you all different kinds of facilities you all different kinds of facilities you know the recession did produce a lot of know the recession did produce a lot of know the recession did produce a lot of empty space and I love the idea of that empty space and I love the idea of that empty space and I love the idea of that we're not you know the the work of the we're not you know the the work of the we're not you know the the work of the church is not only about redeeming lives

church is not only about redeeming lives church is not only about redeeming lives that's what we're about but we're that's what we're about but we're that's what we're about but we're actually redeeming space yeah absolutely actually redeeming space yeah absolutely actually redeeming space yeah absolutely flimed space and in blighted areas where flimed space and in blighted areas where flimed space and in blighted areas where there are people that need a church this there are people that need a church this there are people that need a church this has been a great Boom for for local has been a great Boom for for local has been a great Boom for for local churches uh that to to be able to extend churches uh that to to be able to extend churches uh that to to be able to extend themselves uh into these difficult ult themselves uh into these difficult ult themselves uh into these difficult ult challenging uh underresourced areas challenging uh underresourced areas challenging uh underresourced areas because they're not on their own they're because they're not on their own they're because they're not on their own they're part of a larger church that's you know part of a larger church that's you know part of a larger church that's you know resourcing them and that sort of thing resourcing them and that sort of thing resourcing them and that sort of thing getting them Beyond Survival but we do getting them Beyond Survival but we do getting them Beyond Survival but we do you know the primary location still 50% you know the primary location still 50% you know the primary location still 50% of our multi-site campuses started a of our multi-site campuses started a of our multi-site campuses started a school um that's starting to change a school um that's starting to change a school um that's starting to change a little bit because now the you know the little bit because now the you know the little bit because now the you know the as econom is getting better schools are as econom is getting better schools are as econom is getting better schools are less they were desperate 10 years ago less they were desperate 10 years ago less they were desperate 10 years ago needing the money um and um but um uh needing the money um and um but um uh needing the money um and um but um uh clearly the trends are smaller clearly the trends are smaller clearly the trends are smaller facilities right we don't need to build facilities right we don't need to build facilities right we don't need to build 3,000 5,000 seed auditoriums that that 3,000 5,000 seed auditoriums that that 3,000 5,000 seed auditoriums that that that day is over in my opinion yeah let that day is over in my opinion yeah let that day is over in my opinion yeah let me let me kind of jump in on one of the me let me kind of jump in on one of the me let me kind of jump in on one of the things that that Jim talked about the things that that Jim talked about the things that that Jim talked about the multiv venue on the same campus um Jim multiv venue on the same campus um Jim multiv venue on the same campus um Jim and I were were both Consulting a church and I were were both Consulting a church and I were were both Consulting a church in Virginia Beach that uh said they in Virginia Beach that uh said they in Virginia Beach that uh said they needed another two to 300 seats in their needed another two to 300 seats in their needed another two to 300 seats in their worship center but they also need about worship center but they also need about worship center but they also need about a 200 seat uh youth facility well tell a 200 seat uh youth facility well tell a 200 seat uh youth facility well tell you what instead of building a bigger you what instead of building a bigger you what instead of building a bigger box that's GNA sit empty five to six box that's GNA sit empty five to six box that's GNA sit empty five to six days a week why don't you build a 300 days a week why don't you build a 300 days a week why don't you build a 300 seat youth facility that's oversized for seat youth facility that's oversized for seat youth facility that's oversized for youth but it becomes your second venue youth but it becomes your second venue youth but it becomes your second venue on campus Because the youth don't meet on campus Because the youth don't meet on campus Because the youth don't meet on Sunday morning absolutely and so that on Sunday morning absolutely and so that on Sunday morning absolutely and so that that's one of the trends I think that that's one of the trends I think that that's one of the trends I think that Jim and I are both seen more of is you

Jim and I are both seen more of is you Jim and I are both seen more of is you know you need a larger space for worship know you need a larger space for worship know you need a larger space for worship but you're not going to build a bigger but you're not going to build a bigger but you're not going to build a bigger room right another Trend along that same room right another Trend along that same room right another Trend along that same line and it's it's related all these line and it's it's related all these line and it's it's related all these things are so related Rich increasingly things are so related Rich increasingly things are so related Rich increasingly newer churches for sure and a lot of the newer churches for sure and a lot of the newer churches for sure and a lot of the older churches are moving this direction older churches are moving this direction older churches are moving this direction they're moving the Youth Ministry Office they're moving the Youth Ministry Office they're moving the Youth Ministry Office Sunday morning right at least the high Sunday morning right at least the high Sunday morning right at least the high school age group and and many in the school age group and and many in the school age group and and many in the middle school because they're s for two middle school because they're s for two middle school because they're s for two reasons one is is that we feel like we' reasons one is is that we feel like we' reasons one is is that we feel like we' we've done a disservice to our to to the we've done a disservice to our to to the we've done a disservice to our to to the uh Young Generation by segregating them uh Young Generation by segregating them uh Young Generation by segregating them from the rest of the church and so when from the rest of the church and so when from the rest of the church and so when they graduate from high school they tend they graduate from high school they tend they graduate from high school they tend to uh they don't come back to church to uh they don't come back to church to uh they don't come back to church because their Church doesn't exist because their Church doesn't exist because their Church doesn't exist anymore right but and and so there's a anymore right but and and so there's a anymore right but and and so there's a move clearly let's worship together move clearly let's worship together move clearly let's worship together serve together as families at least from serve together as families at least from serve together as families at least from Junior High up and uh and then they have Junior High up and uh and then they have Junior High up and uh and then they have their own youth group or whatever on their own youth group or whatever on their own youth group or whatever on Wednesday night Sunday night or another Wednesday night Sunday night or another Wednesday night Sunday night or another night of the week and so that student night of the week and so that student night of the week and so that student room becomes a worship video venue uh on room becomes a worship video venue uh on room becomes a worship video venue uh on a Sunday morning which gives them more a Sunday morning which gives them more a Sunday morning which gives them more seats and a uh you know without any more seats and a uh you know without any more seats and a uh you know without any more additional cost so that's a trend that additional cost so that's a trend that additional cost so that's a trend that we're seeing uh as well that's related we're seeing uh as well that's related we're seeing uh as well that's related to facility usage and see these are the to facility usage and see these are the to facility usage and see these are the kinds of things that are trained back in kinds of things that are trained back in kinds of things that are trained back in my back in the day when I was a my back in the day when I was a my back in the day when I was a pastor you know we we intentionally pastor you know we we intentionally pastor you know we we intentionally built really strong youth programs on built really strong youth programs on built really strong youth programs on Sunday morning to complement the Adult Sunday morning to complement the Adult Sunday morning to complement the Adult Services now another Trend that's Services now another Trend that's Services now another Trend that's affecting Church attendance and affecting Church attendance and affecting Church attendance and Facilities is that today back in the day Facilities is that today back in the day Facilities is that today back in the day 50 years ago 100 years ago uh it was a 50 years ago 100 years ago uh it was a 50 years ago 100 years ago uh it was a cultural norm everybody went to church cultural norm everybody went to church cultural norm everybody went to church and they all we all went and expected it and they all we all went and expected it and they all we all went and expected it it was almost like if you don't go to it was almost like if you don't go to it was almost like if you don't go to church what's wrong with you today it's church what's wrong with you today it's church what's wrong with you today it's you go to church what's wrong with you you go to church what's wrong with you you go to church what's wrong with you you know you're weird but when people do

you know you're weird but when people do you know you're weird but when people do come to church the people were trying to come to church the people were trying to come to church the people were trying to reach uh they're not coming like we used reach uh they're not coming like we used reach uh they're not coming like we used to all morning Sunday morning 9:00 to to all morning Sunday morning 9:00 to to all morning Sunday morning 9:00 to noon you know all we all go to Sunday noon you know all we all go to Sunday noon you know all we all go to Sunday school then we all go to worship that school then we all go to worship that school then we all go to worship that didn't happen anymore they come for one didn't happen anymore they come for one didn't happen anymore they come for one one service they're going and they're one service they're going and they're one service they're going and they're gonna come at that 11 o'clock and gonna come at that 11 o'clock and gonna come at that 11 o'clock and they're going to stumble in late to they're going to stumble in late to they're going to stumble in late to that so you got one shot to reach those that so you got one shot to reach those that so you got one shot to reach those people that that later hour 10 to 11 people that that later hour 10 to 11 people that that later hour 10 to 11 o'clock hour frame uh is the ideal time o'clock hour frame uh is the ideal time o'clock hour frame uh is the ideal time for the unchurch people and so you want for the unchurch people and so you want for the unchurch people and so you want to be ready for them but if we're to be ready for them but if we're to be ready for them but if we're segregating the youth and if the youth segregating the youth and if the youth segregating the youth and if the youth have their own service then they you have their own service then they you have their own service then they you we're not being together so there's that we're not being together so there's that we're not being together so there's that Trend there of acknowledging we have a Trend there of acknowledging we have a Trend there of acknowledging we have a our attendance our crowd our Target is our attendance our crowd our Target is our attendance our crowd our Target is not coming to spend all Sunday morning not coming to spend all Sunday morning not coming to spend all Sunday morning and they're not going to come at 9:00 or and they're not going to come at 9:00 or and they're not going to come at 9:00 or Saturday night but you can get your cord Saturday night but you can get your cord Saturday night but you can get your cord members to go there to create space at members to go there to create space at members to go there to create space at lean very cool yeah Cara Powell um from lean very cool yeah Cara Powell um from lean very cool yeah Cara Powell um from Fuller wrote an incredible book called Fuller wrote an incredible book called Fuller wrote an incredible book called sticky faith that if you haven't looked sticky faith that if you haven't looked sticky faith that if you haven't looked into that it explores this exact issue into that it explores this exact issue into that it explores this exact issue around uh young people particularly and around uh young people particularly and around uh young people particularly and how do we pass the message on to the how do we pass the message on to the how do we pass the message on to the next Generation they did this great next Generation they did this great next Generation they did this great study where uh to summarize it I'm going study where uh to summarize it I'm going study where uh to summarize it I'm going to butcher it but to summarize it they to butcher it but to summarize it they to butcher it but to summarize it they looked at young people that um were looked at young people that um were looked at young people that um were still connected to their church after still connected to their church after still connected to their church after college or after those that those um you college or after those that those um you college or after those that those um you know that that age bracket and they know that that age bracket and they know that that age bracket and they found the thing that get that got them found the thing that get that got them found the thing that get that got them connected wasn't great incredible you connected wasn't great incredible you connected wasn't great incredible you know segregated student Ministry it know segregated student Ministry it know segregated student Ministry it actually was intergenerational actually was intergenerational actually was intergenerational relationships and so her you know her relationships and so her you know her relationships and so her you know her work really does challenge some of the work really does challenge some of the work really does challenge some of the Norms or at least some of the practices Norms or at least some of the practices Norms or at least some of the practices you know that have been a core that are you know that have been a core that are you know that have been a core that are obviously you know that's undergr even obviously you know that's undergr even obviously you know that's undergr even what we're seeing on the facility side

what we're seeing on the facility side what we're seeing on the facility side well Rich talking about the Next well Rich talking about the Next well Rich talking about the Next Generation the latest research about the Generation the latest research about the Generation the latest research about the Millennials um you know the young adults Millennials um you know the young adults Millennials um you know the young adults now that are coming into the church uh now that are coming into the church uh now that are coming into the church uh it's they they're much more inclined to it's they they're much more inclined to it's they they're much more inclined to smaller venue facilities which is very smaller venue facilities which is very smaller venue facilities which is very conducive to a multi-site model y conducive to a multi-site model y conducive to a multi-site model y they're not they're not drawn to or they're not they're not drawn to or they're not they're not drawn to or attracted to Big Mega uh facilities and attracted to Big Mega uh facilities and attracted to Big Mega uh facilities and so this is very concerning if you're the so this is very concerning if you're the so this is very concerning if you're the the possessor of a huge mega massive the possessor of a huge mega massive the possessor of a huge mega massive building yep uh the next generation is building yep uh the next generation is building yep uh the next generation is not only uh not drawn to them they're not only uh not drawn to them they're not only uh not drawn to them they're turned off by it right and um now turned off by it right and um now turned off by it right and um now they're not turned off by big churches they're not turned off by big churches they're not turned off by big churches that do things well but they do it in that do things well but they do it in that do things well but they do it in smaller venues it's more about you know smaller venues it's more about you know smaller venues it's more about you know high high high tech but also High touch high high high tech but also High touch high high high tech but also High touch right High community and high social right High community and high social right High community and high social engagement and churches that are doing engagement and churches that are doing engagement and churches that are doing that and this is one of the things that that and this is one of the things that that and this is one of the things that we're seeing AC in in the list of the we're seeing AC in in the list of the we're seeing AC in in the list of the fastest growing churches the largest fastest growing churches the largest fastest growing churches the largest growing churches every year that growing churches every year that growing churches every year that Outreach magazine produces there are Outreach magazine produces there are Outreach magazine produces there are three characteristics that are common three characteristics that are common three characteristics that are common among all those or tend to be common among all those or tend to be common among all those or tend to be common among those churches three things that among those churches three things that among those churches three things that they all are doing they are getting they all are doing they are getting they all are doing they are getting their people into small groups that's their people into small groups that's their people into small groups that's that community that you know that community that you know that community that you know relationship relational aspect of church relationship relational aspect of church relationship relational aspect of church they're getting they're they're locally they're getting they're they're locally they're getting they're they're locally they are externally focused and they're they are externally focused and they're they are externally focused and they're serving their communities in serving their communities in serving their communities in high-profile ways they're you know uh high-profile ways they're you know uh high-profile ways they're you know uh doing good in the community and uh doing good in the community and uh doing good in the community and uh bringing value to the community and then bringing value to the community and then bringing value to the community and then thirdly they they're multi sighting thirdly they they're multi sighting thirdly they they're multi sighting they're getting absolutely absolutely they're getting absolutely absolutely they're getting absolutely absolutely smaller locations they

smaller locations they smaller locations they smaller cool well uh you know any uh any smaller cool well uh you know any uh any smaller cool well uh you know any uh any other anything else you'd like to add other anything else you'd like to add other anything else you'd like to add Tim before we uh wrap up this has been Tim before we uh wrap up this has been Tim before we uh wrap up this has been fantastic conversation today I'm so glad fantastic conversation today I'm so glad fantastic conversation today I'm so glad that you've decided to spent some time that you've decided to spent some time that you've decided to spent some time with us anything you'd like to add with us anything you'd like to add with us anything you'd like to add before we wrap up yeah tied to that before we wrap up yeah tied to that before we wrap up yeah tied to that connectivity that Jim just mentioned uh connectivity that Jim just mentioned uh connectivity that Jim just mentioned uh one of the the big facility trends that one of the the big facility trends that one of the the big facility trends that we're seeing is the the larger Lobby we're seeing is the the larger Lobby we're seeing is the the larger Lobby connecting spaces when I started doing connecting spaces when I started doing connecting spaces when I started doing this in this in this in 19 uh you know the idea was we would use 19 uh you know the idea was we would use 19 uh you know the idea was we would use maybe one to two square feet per person maybe one to two square feet per person maybe one to two square feet per person for a foyer a narx if you will right and for a foyer a narx if you will right and for a foyer a narx if you will right and it and in those days it was strictly a it and in those days it was strictly a it and in those days it was strictly a cattle shoot to get people from one part cattle shoot to get people from one part cattle shoot to get people from one part of a building outside yes now the common of a building outside yes now the common of a building outside yes now the common rule of thumb is the the lobby needs to rule of thumb is the the lobby needs to rule of thumb is the the lobby needs to be at no less than 50% the size of the be at no less than 50% the size of the be at no less than 50% the size of the worship space wow that's great people worship space wow that's great people worship space wow that's great people are looking to connect we we for too are looking to connect we we for too are looking to connect we we for too many years have allowed ourselves to many years have allowed ourselves to many years have allowed ourselves to become backyard uh inhabitants we pull become backyard uh inhabitants we pull become backyard uh inhabitants we pull in our garage at night we put the fences in our garage at night we put the fences in our garage at night we put the fences up and we go live in our backyard and we up and we go live in our backyard and we up and we go live in our backyard and we don't communicate with each other the don't communicate with each other the don't communicate with each other the the the the Millennials particularly are the the the Millennials particularly are the the the Millennials particularly are looking for connection to each other and looking for connection to each other and looking for connection to each other and I think even people in Gemini's age I think even people in Gemini's age I think even people in Gemini's age group and you're obviously not there yet group and you're obviously not there yet group and you're obviously not there yet right but eventually you will be they right but eventually you will be they right but eventually you will be they we're looking for connectivity because we're looking for connectivity because we're looking for connectivity because we've lost it over the years right and we've lost it over the years right and we've lost it over the years right and so being able to have spaces and I'm not so being able to have spaces and I'm not so being able to have spaces and I'm not just talking a big open forer I'm just talking a big open forer I'm just talking a big open forer I'm talking about you know Comfy Couch areas talking about you know Comfy Couch areas talking about you know Comfy Couch areas and Cafe areas and and you know little and Cafe areas and and you know little and Cafe areas and and you know little NOS conversation pits

NOS conversation pits NOS conversation pits exactly people are looking to connect exactly people are looking to connect exactly people are looking to connect with each other before after during the with each other before after during the with each other before after during the week um more and more churches are week um more and more churches are week um more and more churches are saying hey we we want to open up our saying hey we we want to open up our saying hey we we want to open up our lobby space for those small groups but lobby space for those small groups but lobby space for those small groups but they don't want to meet in a classroom they don't want to meet in a classroom they don't want to meet in a classroom they want to meet in a conversation pit they want to meet in a conversation pit they want to meet in a conversation pit yeah absolutely very cool well this has yeah absolutely very cool well this has yeah absolutely very cool well this has been a great conversation today I'm been a great conversation today I'm been a great conversation today I'm super excited about uh that this super excited about uh that this super excited about uh that this conversation I'm glad you guys have conversation I'm glad you guys have conversation I'm glad you guys have you've come in and you know and given us you've come in and you know and given us you've come in and you know and given us lots to think about um we're gonna link lots to think about um we're gonna link lots to think about um we're gonna link to your book in the show notes so you to your book in the show notes so you to your book in the show notes so you can drop by on Seminary and find that uh can drop by on Seminary and find that uh can drop by on Seminary and find that uh Jim if people want to get oh look at Jim if people want to get oh look at Jim if people want to get oh look at that you got a picture of it right there that you got a picture of it right there that you got a picture of it right there you got the actual book nice Church you got the actual book nice Church you got the actual book nice Church locality that's great so we'll link to locality that's great so we'll link to locality that's great so we'll link to that uh Jim if people want to get in that uh Jim if people want to get in that uh Jim if people want to get in touch with you learn more about what you touch with you learn more about what you touch with you learn more about what you do from a multisite point of view how do from a multisite point of view how do from a multisite point of view how can they do that well you can go to my can they do that well you can go to my can they do that well you can go to my website at multi solutions.com that's website at multi solutions.com that's website at multi solutions.com that's multi-sites solutions.com all one word multi-sites solutions.com all one word multi-sites solutions.com all one word and um that would be the best way to and um that would be the best way to and um that would be the best way to contact connect with me and love to hear contact connect with me and love to hear contact connect with me and love to hear from you great and Tim if people want to from you great and Tim if people want to from you great and Tim if people want to get in touch with you how can they do get in touch with you how can they do get in touch with you how can they do that yeah they can either go to cools that yeah they can either go to cools that yeah they can either go to cools Solutions grroup Solutions grroup Solutions grroup docomo Solutions group.com nice I really docomo Solutions group.com nice I really docomo Solutions group.com nice I really appreciate you being on the show today appreciate you being on the show today appreciate you being on the show today thanks so much guys thanks thanks Tim thanks so much guys thanks thanks Tim thanks so much guys thanks thanks Tim Rich Rich Rich thank you for tuning in to this week's thank you for tuning in to this week's thank you for tuning in to this week's unseminary podcast don't be shy we'd unseminary podcast don't be shy we'd unseminary podcast don't be shy we'd love to connect check out unseminary love to connect check out unseminary love to connect check out unseminary inbox you can sign up at unseminary dcom inbox you can sign up at unseminary dcom inbox you can sign up at unseminary dcom and we'll send you helpful training and we'll send you helpful training and we'll send you helpful training resources every week plus you'll gain resources every week plus you'll gain resources every week plus you'll gain immediate access to our exclusive immediate access to our exclusive immediate access to our exclusive members area with tons of resources you members area with tons of resources you members area with tons of resources you can use connect with Rich on Twitter at

can use connect with Rich on Twitter at can use connect with Rich on Twitter at Rich Birch or through email Rich at UNS Rich Birch or through email Rich at UNS Rich Birch or through email Rich at UNS seminary. don't forget to check out the seminary. don't forget to check out the seminary. don't forget to check out the show notes for this episode at show notes for this episode at show notes for this episode at unseminary tocom it includes link thanks unseminary tocom it includes link thanks unseminary tocom it includes link thanks to what we talked about today and more to what we talked about today and more to what we talked about today and more leave a comment we'd love to hear from leave a comment we'd love to hear from leave a comment we'd love to hear from you did you enjoy today's episode drop you did you enjoy today's episode drop you did you enjoy today's episode drop by iTunes and leave a review Thanks by iTunes and leave a review Thanks by iTunes and leave a review Thanks again for tuning in to this week's un again for tuning in to this week's un again for tuning in to this week's un Seminary podcast join us next week when Seminary podcast join us next week when Seminary podcast join us next week when we'll learn more stuff we wish they we'll learn more stuff we wish they we'll learn more stuff we wish they taught in taught in taught in seminary