Carey Nieuwhof on Leading Your Church Through Change

are you looking for practical ministry are you looking for practical ministry help to drive your ministry further help to drive your ministry further help to drive your ministry further faster have a sinking feeling that your faster have a sinking feeling that your faster have a sinking feeling that your ministry training didn't prepare you for ministry training didn't prepare you for ministry training didn't prepare you for the real world the real world the real world hey you're not alone join thousands of hey you're not alone join thousands of hey you're not alone join thousands of others in pursuit of stuff that we wish others in pursuit of stuff that we wish others in pursuit of stuff that we wish they had taught in seminary buckle up they had taught in seminary buckle up they had taught in seminary buckle up and let's get started with this week's and let's get started with this week's and let's get started with this week's unseminary podcast unseminary podcast unseminary podcast hey everybody happy thursday rich birch hey everybody happy thursday rich birch hey everybody happy thursday rich birch from the unseminary podcast from the unseminary podcast from the unseminary podcast thank you for tuning in do you have thank you for tuning in do you have thank you for tuning in do you have things at your church that you wish things at your church that you wish things at your church that you wish would just change do you have people would just change do you have people would just change do you have people that are resisting change that you're that are resisting change that you're that are resisting change that you're just are pushing against just are pushing against just are pushing against what you think is god's vision for the what you think is god's vision for the what you think is god's vision for the future of your church well today future of your church well today future of your church well today you are in for a treat because we've got you are in for a treat because we've got you are in for a treat because we've got a special guest carrie newhoff a special guest carrie newhoff a special guest carrie newhoff uh who who i think is one of the uh who who i think is one of the uh who who i think is one of the smartest leaders in the country smartest leaders in the country smartest leaders in the country on the whole organizational change issue on the whole organizational change issue on the whole organizational change issue he's got some great stuff to say let's he's got some great stuff to say let's he's got some great stuff to say let's jump into the podcast jump into the podcast jump into the podcast and make sure you come back after the and make sure you come back after the and make sure you come back after the interview because i've got a few interview because i've got a few interview because i've got a few resources i want to share with you resources i want to share with you resources i want to share with you this is the unseminary podcast stuff you this is the unseminary podcast stuff you this is the unseminary podcast stuff you wish they taught in seminary wish they taught in seminary wish they taught in seminary all right well welcome to the show i'm all right well welcome to the show i'm all right well welcome to the show i'm so privileged to have carrie newhoff on so privileged to have carrie newhoff on so privileged to have carrie newhoff on with us carrie with us carrie with us carrie is a leader he's a writer he's a pastor is a leader he's a writer he's a pastor is a leader he's a writer he's a pastor blogger blogger blogger author uh and i proved to call him a author uh and i proved to call him a author uh and i proved to call him a friend and so friend and so friend and so today i thank you carrie for being on today i thank you carrie for being on today i thank you carrie for being on the show hey thanks for having me rich the show hey thanks for having me rich the show hey thanks for having me rich i'm really excited to be here and really i'm really excited to be here and really i'm really excited to be here and really excited about your podcast too excited about your podcast too excited about your podcast too oh thank you so much well you know oh thank you so much well you know oh thank you so much well you know carrie you're one of those leaders that carrie you're one of those leaders that carrie you're one of those leaders that i feel like has been through a lot of i feel like has been through a lot of i feel like has been through a lot of change you know you've you've kind of change you know you've you've kind of change you know you've you've kind of seen a lot happen i wonder if we could seen a lot happen i wonder if we could seen a lot happen i wonder if we could kind of take a little bit and tell a kind of take a little bit and tell a kind of take a little bit and tell a story about the current ministry you're story about the current ministry you're story about the current ministry you're at and kind of just a bit of your at and kind of just a bit of your at and kind of just a bit of your background you know get people to background you know get people to background you know get people to kind of introduce you a little bit get kind of introduce you a little bit get kind of introduce you a little bit get to know you more sure

to know you more sure to know you more sure yeah no change has been the one constant yeah no change has been the one constant yeah no change has been the one constant over the 18 years that i've been in over the 18 years that i've been in over the 18 years that i've been in ministry ministry ministry and it's one of those things rich that and it's one of those things rich that and it's one of those things rich that um just never goes away um just never goes away um just never goes away and so my story my background is i was and so my story my background is i was and so my story my background is i was not one of those people who ever thought not one of those people who ever thought not one of those people who ever thought i would be in ministry i would be in ministry i would be in ministry um i was when i was eight years old i um i was when i was eight years old i um i was when i was eight years old i decided i wanted to become a lawyer decided i wanted to become a lawyer decided i wanted to become a lawyer i don't know what needs to be wrong with i don't know what needs to be wrong with i don't know what needs to be wrong with you at eight years old to want to be a you at eight years old to want to be a you at eight years old to want to be a lawyer but lawyer but lawyer but that was true of me so i went to law that was true of me so i went to law that was true of me so i went to law school and uh it was in the middle of school and uh it was in the middle of school and uh it was in the middle of law school that i law school that i law school that i really liked super i'm not a like really liked super i'm not a like really liked super i'm not a like supernatural really charismatic person supernatural really charismatic person supernatural really charismatic person but but but god intervened and even though i was a god intervened and even though i was a god intervened and even though i was a christian he made it very clear to me christian he made it very clear to me christian he made it very clear to me that there was a call to ministry and it that there was a call to ministry and it that there was a call to ministry and it took me a few years to discern that i took me a few years to discern that i took me a few years to discern that i finished law school finished law school finished law school and then in 1995 i came up to where i and then in 1995 i came up to where i and then in 1995 i came up to where i currently am about an hour north of currently am about an hour north of currently am about an hour north of toronto in a little community called oro toronto in a little community called oro toronto in a little community called oro which you know rich and started with which you know rich and started with which you know rich and started with three small presbyterian churches three small presbyterian churches three small presbyterian churches my background was presbyterian we led my background was presbyterian we led my background was presbyterian we led those churches through a significant those churches through a significant those churches through a significant amount of change amount of change amount of change over over a decade and then about six over over a decade and then about six over over a decade and then about six years ago years ago years ago i left and we started connexxus church i left and we started connexxus church i left and we started connexxus church and that was a transition some of the and that was a transition some of the and that was a transition some of the same people but certainly not all of the same people but certainly not all of the same people but certainly not all of the same people uh same people uh same people uh who were part of those presbyterian who were part of those presbyterian who were part of those presbyterian churches went on to start connexus a churches went on to start connexus a churches went on to start connexus a church for unchurched people and a north church for unchurched people and a north church for unchurched people and a north point strategic partner point strategic partner point strategic partner and even in that even in the midst of and even in that even in the midst of and even in that even in the midst of that there's been an awful lot of change that there's been an awful lot of change that there's been an awful lot of change in the last in the last in the last six years so change has been the one six years so change has been the one six years so change has been the one constant i guess that in christ constant i guess that in christ constant i guess that in christ yeah exactly well man that uh you know i

yeah exactly well man that uh you know i yeah exactly well man that uh you know i often say to people like carrie often say to people like carrie often say to people like carrie like i said he's just been through a lot like i said he's just been through a lot like i said he's just been through a lot now what would you say now what would you say now what would you say you know a lot of people who listen to you know a lot of people who listen to you know a lot of people who listen to this podcast are obviously leading this podcast are obviously leading this podcast are obviously leading churches of all different sizes but i churches of all different sizes but i churches of all different sizes but i think we're all trying to figure out how think we're all trying to figure out how think we're all trying to figure out how to change our churches right we're all to change our churches right we're all to change our churches right we're all you know there's a i think as inbred in you know there's a i think as inbred in you know there's a i think as inbred in leaders is the desire to say hey we want leaders is the desire to say hey we want leaders is the desire to say hey we want to make things to make things to make things better um how how have you navigated better um how how have you navigated better um how how have you navigated what were some handles that you've kind what were some handles that you've kind what were some handles that you've kind of of of come back to time and time again you've come back to time and time again you've come back to time and time again you've seen hey this is some of the things we seen hey this is some of the things we seen hey this is some of the things we have to do as leaders to have to do as leaders to have to do as leaders to kind of successfully navigate that kind of successfully navigate that kind of successfully navigate that change well probably and i didn't know change well probably and i didn't know change well probably and i didn't know this right away but i figured out over this right away but i figured out over this right away but i figured out over time that change is actually a skill time that change is actually a skill time that change is actually a skill and leading change is actually a skill and leading change is actually a skill and leading change is actually a skill and the good news is it can be learned and the good news is it can be learned and the good news is it can be learned there are principles that just work and there are principles that just work and there are principles that just work and i think sometimes leaders find i think sometimes leaders find i think sometimes leaders find themselves in a trap themselves in a trap themselves in a trap where they really want change i don't where they really want change i don't where they really want change i don't know a single leader with his or her know a single leader with his or her know a single leader with his or her salt that doesn't want salt that doesn't want salt that doesn't want change of some kind that's what makes us change of some kind that's what makes us change of some kind that's what makes us leaders but we kind of leaders but we kind of leaders but we kind of expect other people to buy into that expect other people to buy into that expect other people to buy into that change before we've sold it before we've change before we've sold it before we've change before we've sold it before we've really really really delivered on it and so we're waiting for delivered on it and so we're waiting for delivered on it and so we're waiting for people to change and then we get people to change and then we get people to change and then we get frustrated because they don't change frustrated because they don't change frustrated because they don't change and i think there was something at first and i think there was something at first and i think there was something at first it was just instinct it was just instinct it was just instinct that told me that that was just wrong that told me that that was just wrong that told me that that was just wrong like people do not automatically change like people do not automatically change like people do not automatically change and people don't like and people don't like and people don't like change and so it's up to you as the change and so it's up to you as the change and so it's up to you as the leader leader leader to really show people a picture of a to really show people a picture of a to really show people a picture of a preferred preferred future preferred preferred future preferred preferred future and to lead them there now there are and to lead them there now there are and to lead them there now there are good ways to do that and there are bad good ways to do that and there are bad good ways to do that and there are bad ways to do it and you know the one ways to do it and you know the one ways to do it and you know the one question i got all the time because question i got all the time because question i got all the time because our little presbyterian churches what we our little presbyterian churches what we our little presbyterian churches what we did was did was did was um we started to grow and um we started to grow and

um we started to grow and we sold three historic buildings within we sold three historic buildings within we sold three historic buildings within five years and we moved into an five years and we moved into an five years and we moved into an elementary school elementary school elementary school and that elicited some opposition you and that elicited some opposition you and that elicited some opposition you give up everything that they had known give up everything that they had known give up everything that they had known for over a hundred years and i mean for over a hundred years and i mean for over a hundred years and i mean these are beautiful little red brick these are beautiful little red brick these are beautiful little red brick historic buildings you know the anne of historic buildings you know the anne of historic buildings you know the anne of green gables type churches green gables type churches green gables type churches and uh they sold them and we moved into and uh they sold them and we moved into and uh they sold them and we moved into an elementary school in the name of an elementary school in the name of an elementary school in the name of reaching people and then reaching people and then reaching people and then we built a two million dollar facility we built a two million dollar facility we built a two million dollar facility and then we left it a few years later and then we left it a few years later and then we left it a few years later when we left the denomination to start when we left the denomination to start when we left the denomination to start over again in movie theaters i mean over again in movie theaters i mean over again in movie theaters i mean because we thought it would help us because we thought it would help us because we thought it would help us reach more unchurched people reach more unchurched people reach more unchurched people in a uh non-denominational context and in a uh non-denominational context and in a uh non-denominational context and with a model of ministry we wanted to with a model of ministry we wanted to with a model of ministry we wanted to run with so run with so run with so that's an awful lot of change and people that's an awful lot of change and people that's an awful lot of change and people don't just stand up and wildly applaud don't just stand up and wildly applaud don't just stand up and wildly applaud when you announce when you announce when you announce what your strategy is so uh we did get a what your strategy is so uh we did get a what your strategy is so uh we did get a lot of opposition the question i would lot of opposition the question i would lot of opposition the question i would get that's a long way of getting to this get that's a long way of getting to this get that's a long way of getting to this question the question i always got question the question i always got question the question i always got is so um did anybody leave is so um did anybody leave is so um did anybody leave and there's a point at which well of and there's a point at which well of and there's a point at which well of course people left course people left course people left like what do you think they you know like what do you think they you know like what do you think they you know everybody who's in your church today everybody who's in your church today everybody who's in your church today is there because they like it the way it is there because they like it the way it is there because they like it the way it is now is now is now that's something every leader like that's something every leader like that's something every leader like everybody who's at liquid church right everybody who's at liquid church right everybody who's at liquid church right now where you serve now where you serve now where you serve likes the way it is right now one way or likes the way it is right now one way or likes the way it is right now one way or the other maybe they don't like the other maybe they don't like the other maybe they don't like everything but they like something about everything but they like something about everything but they like something about it so if you're going to change it so if you're going to change it so if you're going to change there's an inherent alienation that's there's an inherent alienation that's there's an inherent alienation that's going to happen with everybody who's going to happen with everybody who's going to happen with everybody who's currently part of your tribe it just it currently part of your tribe it just it currently part of your tribe it just it just happens right just happens right just happens right yes i liked it better when rich didn't yes i liked it better when rich didn't yes i liked it better when rich didn't do podcasts when he was right do podcasts when he was right do podcasts when he was right right i mean like you have that it right i mean like you have that it right i mean like you have that it happens in your tv shows where they add happens in your tv shows where they add happens in your tv shows where they add a character and you're like well it was

a character and you're like well it was a character and you're like well it was so much better before they had that so much better before they had that so much better before they had that character and character and character and you know it it's just people don't like you know it it's just people don't like you know it it's just people don't like that and so that and so that and so the opposition gets intense but what the opposition gets intense but what the opposition gets intense but what happens here's one mistake that i'll happens here's one mistake that i'll happens here's one mistake that i'll share share share that i think a lot of leaders make and i that i think a lot of leaders make and i that i think a lot of leaders make and i had to figure out how not to make this had to figure out how not to make this had to figure out how not to make this mistake mistake mistake we assume because opponents are loud we assume because opponents are loud we assume because opponents are loud that loud equals large loud equals large that loud equals large loud equals large that loud equals large loud equals large so because your inbox is blowing up or so because your inbox is blowing up or so because your inbox is blowing up or because that congregational meeting because that congregational meeting because that congregational meeting didn't go really well or because you didn't go really well or because you didn't go really well or because you keep getting keep getting keep getting pigeonholed after the service hey can i pigeonholed after the service hey can i pigeonholed after the service hey can i talk to you and you know talk to you and you know talk to you and you know those fingers pointing you you just those fingers pointing you you just those fingers pointing you you just assume and if you listen to the assume and if you listen to the assume and if you listen to the opponents opponents opponents they'll always tell you um hey they'll always tell you um hey they'll always tell you um hey everybody's upset with this everybody's upset with this everybody's upset with this you know i've talked to everybody really you know i've talked to everybody really you know i've talked to everybody really you talk to everybody you talk to everybody you talk to everybody okay and just check in um and so okay and just check in um and so okay and just check in um and so they you know you just assume as a they you know you just assume as a they you know you just assume as a leader loud equals large leader loud equals large leader loud equals large but if you actually do the math if you but if you actually do the math if you but if you actually do the math if you actually go through it and we we actually go through it and we we actually go through it and we we learned early on we should just do the learned early on we should just do the learned early on we should just do the math here math here math here probably that loud group of probably that loud group of probably that loud group of of your organization is probably about of your organization is probably about of your organization is probably about 10 10 10 and in the worst days it might be 30 and in the worst days it might be 30 and in the worst days it might be 30 maybe it's 50. i doubt it i don't think maybe it's 50. i doubt it i don't think maybe it's 50. i doubt it i don't think it ever got to 50 it ever got to 50 it ever got to 50 right in in our worst moments um but right in in our worst moments um but right in in our worst moments um but they're just loud they're just loud they're just loud and so you just have to convince and so you just have to convince and so you just have to convince yourself i have to do the math wait a yourself i have to do the math wait a yourself i have to do the math wait a minute am i going to sacrifice 90 minute am i going to sacrifice 90 minute am i going to sacrifice 90 of the population of our organization of the population of our organization of the population of our organization for the sake of 10 for the sake of 10 for the sake of 10 who are not content and often the people who are not content and often the people who are not content and often the people who are opposed to your vision who are opposed to your vision who are opposed to your vision don't actually have a competing vision

don't actually have a competing vision don't actually have a competing vision for a better future for a better future for a better future so if you ask them well where okay so so if you ask them well where okay so so if you ask them well where okay so what do you want to do what do you want what do you want to do what do you want what do you want to do what do you want to accomplish to accomplish to accomplish they're like well i don't know it just they're like well i don't know it just they're like well i don't know it just can't be that way well you can't go back can't be that way well you can't go back can't be that way well you can't go back you can't go back so what's your vision you can't go back so what's your vision you can't go back so what's your vision for a preferred future for a preferred future for a preferred future and often the answer is they don't have and often the answer is they don't have and often the answer is they don't have one and so then really okay so you're one and so then really okay so you're one and so then really okay so you're going to listen to 10 going to listen to 10 going to listen to 10 of the population that doesn't have a of the population that doesn't have a of the population that doesn't have a clear destination that actually isn't clear destination that actually isn't clear destination that actually isn't going to make it better it doesn't mean going to make it better it doesn't mean going to make it better it doesn't mean they're bad people they're just not they're bad people they're just not they're bad people they're just not going to make it better going to make it better going to make it better and you're going to sacrifice and and you're going to sacrifice and and you're going to sacrifice and jettison your whole organization for the jettison your whole organization for the jettison your whole organization for the sake of that and then if you're involved sake of that and then if you're involved sake of that and then if you're involved in the church or you're trying to grow a in the church or you're trying to grow a in the church or you're trying to grow a business business business and you think about well that's my and you think about well that's my and you think about well that's my existing customer base those are existing customer base those are existing customer base those are existing users existing users existing users what about all the market out there what what about all the market out there what what about all the market out there what about in my case unchurched people you about in my case unchurched people you about in my case unchurched people you know you're going to let 10 people in a know you're going to let 10 people in a know you're going to let 10 people in a church of 100 church of 100 church of 100 control the future of a hundred thousand control the future of a hundred thousand control the future of a hundred thousand people you're gonna let a hundred people people you're gonna let a hundred people people you're gonna let a hundred people in the church of a thousand control the in the church of a thousand control the in the church of a thousand control the future of a hundred thousand people like future of a hundred thousand people like future of a hundred thousand people like do the math so that those were some do the math so that those were some do the math so that those were some lessons i had to learn lessons i had to learn lessons i had to learn early on and we were fortunate enough to early on and we were fortunate enough to early on and we were fortunate enough to try to figure out try to figure out try to figure out well kerry this is why i love you well kerry this is why i love you well kerry this is why i love you talking about change because you know talking about change because you know talking about change because you know it just falls out of you it's like okay it just falls out of you it's like okay it just falls out of you it's like okay you know you know you know well there might have been a bit of well there might have been a bit of well there might have been a bit of opposition about selling three buildings opposition about selling three buildings opposition about selling three buildings and and and merging and all this stuff that's that's merging and all this stuff that's that's merging and all this stuff that's that's amazing break it down to amazing break it down to amazing break it down to you know maybe it's like a a personal you know maybe it's like a a personal you know maybe it's like a a personal story or a time when story or a time when story or a time when um you know you can remember hey there's um you know you can remember hey there's um you know you can remember hey there's a bit of opposition there a bit of opposition there a bit of opposition there um maybe from a source where you didn't um maybe from a source where you didn't um maybe from a source where you didn't anticipate it anticipate it anticipate it you know how do you deal with that you know how do you deal with that you know how do you deal with that because i think it's not so much i think because i think it's not so much i think because i think it's not so much i think for leaders that it's like for leaders that it's like for leaders that it's like you know there's that person you don't

you know there's that person you don't you know there's that person you don't like now maybe it's just you but there's like now maybe it's just you but there's like now maybe it's just you but there's always people in every church where i'm always people in every church where i'm always people in every church where i'm like ah you don't really like it like ah you don't really like it like ah you don't really like it i'm not gonna listen to them but then i'm not gonna listen to them but then i'm not gonna listen to them but then there's the people that are a little there's the people that are a little there's the people that are a little closer closer closer um you know how do you deal with that um you know how do you deal with that um you know how do you deal with that how do you deal with when you talk about how do you deal with when you talk about how do you deal with when you talk about something personal something personal something personal well let's let's do two ways um number well let's let's do two ways um number well let's let's do two ways um number one in the early days one in the early days one in the early days you do get a lot of opposition you get you do get a lot of opposition you get you do get a lot of opposition you get people standing up emailing you or people standing up emailing you or people standing up emailing you or pigeonholing you or whatever pigeonholing you or whatever pigeonholing you or whatever i we learned as an elder board to ask i we learned as an elder board to ask i we learned as an elder board to ask this question this question this question is there a biblical art two questions is there a biblical art two questions is there a biblical art two questions number one is there a biblical argument number one is there a biblical argument number one is there a biblical argument in what they're saying in what they're saying in what they're saying because if there is i need to listen because if there is i need to listen because if there is i need to listen right and just because i'm the leader right and just because i'm the leader right and just because i'm the leader doesn't mean i always know best doesn't doesn't mean i always know best doesn't doesn't mean i always know best doesn't mean i speak for god mean i speak for god mean i speak for god and wisdom does come to us sometimes and wisdom does come to us sometimes and wisdom does come to us sometimes even in the face of opponents and even even in the face of opponents and even even in the face of opponents and even with your worst opponents with your worst opponents with your worst opponents there might always be a grain of truth there might always be a grain of truth there might always be a grain of truth in what they're saying even if their in what they're saying even if their in what they're saying even if their motivations aren't great so motivations aren't great so motivations aren't great so have the humility to listen but the have the humility to listen but the have the humility to listen but the wisdom to only act on the things wisdom to only act on the things wisdom to only act on the things that really are going to determine a that really are going to determine a that really are going to determine a better future so the humility to listen better future so the humility to listen better future so the humility to listen but the wisdom not to act on all of it but the wisdom not to act on all of it but the wisdom not to act on all of it so so so is there a biblical argument what is there a biblical argument what is there a biblical argument what they're saying second question we they're saying second question we they're saying second question we learned to ask and this one i still ask learned to ask and this one i still ask learned to ask and this one i still ask to this day is are these the kind of to this day is are these the kind of to this day is are these the kind of people we're going to build the future people we're going to build the future people we're going to build the future of the church on of the church on of the church on are they and um in the early days a lot are they and um in the early days a lot are they and um in the early days a lot of them were older of them were older of them were older and there's nothing wrong with older and there's nothing wrong with older and there's nothing wrong with older people we have some very very wise people we have some very very wise people we have some very very wise older you know senior adults in our older you know senior adults in our older you know senior adults in our congregation that we listen to but congregation that we listen to but congregation that we listen to but sometimes sometimes sometimes you know in our case they were people we you know in our case they were people we you know in our case they were people we just couldn't build the future of the just couldn't build the future of the just couldn't build the future of the church on church on church on even younger leaders when you look at even younger leaders when you look at even younger leaders when you look at their lives it's like i don't really see their lives it's like i don't really see their lives it's like i don't really see a track record where a track record where a track record where you've accomplished a whole lot or maybe you've accomplished a whole lot or maybe you've accomplished a whole lot or maybe your life you sit in the critics chair your life you sit in the critics chair your life you sit in the critics chair all day long and you say this guy's

all day long and you say this guy's all day long and you say this guy's wrong and that guy's wrong wrong and that guy's wrong wrong and that guy's wrong that's just your life like you cannot that's just your life like you cannot that's just your life like you cannot build the future of the church on people build the future of the church on people build the future of the church on people like that people who are cynical and like that people who are cynical and like that people who are cynical and negative and always opposed to something negative and always opposed to something negative and always opposed to something can't build the future of the church on can't build the future of the church on can't build the future of the church on now where it gets tough i remember now where it gets tough i remember now where it gets tough i remember about 10 years ago i had a letter about 10 years ago i had a letter about 10 years ago i had a letter from and i haven't talked about this from and i haven't talked about this from and i haven't talked about this publicly but you asked so i got a letter publicly but you asked so i got a letter publicly but you asked so i got a letter from a key elder and um she from a key elder and um she from a key elder and um she sent me a note and she just said i sent me a note and she just said i sent me a note and she just said i support you 100 support you 100 support you 100 and uh but this time i think you've gone and uh but this time i think you've gone and uh but this time i think you've gone too far and we were getting the too far and we were getting the too far and we were getting the rid of the last of the old hymns and rid of the last of the old hymns and rid of the last of the old hymns and i sat down with her and i mean we cried i sat down with her and i mean we cried i sat down with her and i mean we cried together together together and i said i just i just gotta disagree and i said i just i just gotta disagree and i said i just i just gotta disagree with you and i've i've gotta focus on with you and i've i've gotta focus on with you and i've i've gotta focus on who we're gonna reach not who we're who we're gonna reach not who we're who we're gonna reach not who we're gonna keep gonna keep gonna keep and we try to keep up our friendship and and we try to keep up our friendship and and we try to keep up our friendship and she continued to serve in leadership she continued to serve in leadership she continued to serve in leadership and i mean i see her now i don't see her and i mean i see her now i don't see her and i mean i see her now i don't see her as much our church is bigger in the as much our church is bigger in the as much our church is bigger in the whole deal but whenever i see her i get whole deal but whenever i see her i get whole deal but whenever i see her i get this huge hug this huge hug this huge hug and uh i mean she's well into her senior and uh i mean she's well into her senior and uh i mean she's well into her senior years now but just years now but just years now but just an incredible woman and i think an incredible woman and i think an incredible woman and i think sometimes you just have to work through sometimes you just have to work through sometimes you just have to work through that that that and i think one of the reasons that and i think one of the reasons that and i think one of the reasons that people get people get people get out of sorts with wise leaders often out of sorts with wise leaders often out of sorts with wise leaders often it's not with your best people it's not it's not with your best people it's not it's not with your best people it's not a character issue a character issue a character issue it's not a mission issue it's not a it's not a mission issue it's not a it's not a mission issue it's not a vision issue vision issue vision issue usually it's a strategy issue and so usually it's a strategy issue and so usually it's a strategy issue and so sometimes if you get to the point where sometimes if you get to the point where sometimes if you get to the point where some of your best leaders are saying some of your best leaders are saying some of your best leaders are saying like if i've got five like if i've got five like if i've got five great leaders telling me i'm wrong i'm great leaders telling me i'm wrong i'm great leaders telling me i'm wrong i'm probably wrong so this is not like you probably wrong so this is not like you probably wrong so this is not like you just just just go ahead and you just blaze trails i

go ahead and you just blaze trails i go ahead and you just blaze trails i mean every once in a while you have a mean every once in a while you have a mean every once in a while you have a moses moment where moses moment where moses moment where you're going across the desert all by you're going across the desert all by you're going across the desert all by yourself and you're speaking for god but yourself and you're speaking for god but yourself and you're speaking for god but i think a lot of leaders think i think a lot of leaders think i think a lot of leaders think they're in those moments when they're they're in those moments when they're they're in those moments when they're not not not but if you if you get to the point where but if you if you get to the point where but if you if you get to the point where you're with a leader if you can isolate you're with a leader if you can isolate you're with a leader if you can isolate that to strategy that to strategy that to strategy and i think the disagreement between and i think the disagreement between and i think the disagreement between this great woman this great woman this great woman and and and me was a strategic and and and me was a strategic and and and me was a strategic disagreement disagreement disagreement right and it was a lot of change at once right and it was a lot of change at once right and it was a lot of change at once and so when we worked through the and so when we worked through the and so when we worked through the strategy strategy strategy it was one of those things where i just it was one of those things where i just it was one of those things where i just think that you know the style of music think that you know the style of music think that you know the style of music that we're going to do that we're going to do that we're going to do in the future is going to be more in the future is going to be more in the future is going to be more effective at reaching unchurched people effective at reaching unchurched people effective at reaching unchurched people you can sometimes find you can sometimes find you can sometimes find agreement or or at least you realize why agreement or or at least you realize why agreement or or at least you realize why you're disagreeing you're disagreeing you're disagreeing right at the time and that one was tough right at the time and that one was tough right at the time and that one was tough that that actually that incident that that actually that incident that that actually that incident uh combined with a really really tough uh combined with a really really tough uh combined with a really really tough month i remember it was november 2002 month i remember it was november 2002 month i remember it was november 2002 sent me to a counselor's office for the sent me to a counselor's office for the sent me to a counselor's office for the first time ever first time ever first time ever wow so that was very personal yeah wow so that was very personal yeah wow so that was very personal yeah absolutely absolutely absolutely now and now does she is she continue to now and now does she is she continue to now and now does she is she continue to be connected to the administration be connected to the administration be connected to the administration absolutely she was there last sunday absolutely she was there last sunday absolutely she was there last sunday will be this sunday gives serves i mean will be this sunday gives serves i mean will be this sunday gives serves i mean that's a great heart i carry i think that's a great heart i carry i think that's a great heart i carry i think that commends yeah that's a good that commends yeah that's a good that commends yeah that's a good personal story personal story personal story because i think sometimes when we talk because i think sometimes when we talk because i think sometimes when we talk about change right that's amazing that about change right that's amazing that about change right that's amazing that someone who someone who someone who you know obviously really meant a lot to you know obviously really meant a lot to you know obviously really meant a lot to her and it obviously meant a lot to you her and it obviously meant a lot to you her and it obviously meant a lot to you that you can come to a point of that you can come to a point of that you can come to a point of disagreement uh but then disagreement uh but then disagreement uh but then still not break relationship is is still not break relationship is is still not break relationship is is amazing you know i did a couple of her amazing you know i did a couple of her amazing you know i did a couple of her grandchildren's weddings and grandchildren's weddings and grandchildren's weddings and you know cool went to her she had a big you know cool went to her she had a big you know cool went to her she had a big birthday and the family invited me and

birthday and the family invited me and birthday and the family invited me and tony my wife and i were there last tony my wife and i were there last tony my wife and i were there last summer and summer and summer and i mean you you can work through those i mean you you can work through those i mean you you can work through those things but things but things but you just i i would say you just have to you just i i would say you just have to you just i i would say you just have to figure out why you're disagreeing figure out why you're disagreeing figure out why you're disagreeing and i know with our current leadership and i know with our current leadership and i know with our current leadership if because you know we try to find if because you know we try to find if because you know we try to find people whose character is deep runs deep people whose character is deep runs deep people whose character is deep runs deep and who who and who who and who who we also have a great chemistry with we also have a great chemistry with we also have a great chemistry with personally um personally um personally um that often the misalignment happens that often the misalignment happens that often the misalignment happens never on a mission and vision level not never on a mission and vision level not never on a mission and vision level not in the church i mean we in the church i mean we in the church i mean we we believe in jesus we love jesus he's we believe in jesus we love jesus he's we believe in jesus we love jesus he's great great great you know we agree on that the you know we agree on that the you know we agree on that the disagreement is strategic disagreement is strategic disagreement is strategic and if you can isolate that you will and if you can isolate that you will and if you can isolate that you will often at least understand why you often at least understand why you often at least understand why you disagree and sometimes disagree and sometimes disagree and sometimes find agreement even in the midst of that find agreement even in the midst of that find agreement even in the midst of that so now what would you say you know to a so now what would you say you know to a so now what would you say you know to a church leader church leader church leader that um you know says hey i want to make that um you know says hey i want to make that um you know says hey i want to make a a a a strategic shift this fall or maybe a strategic shift this fall or maybe a strategic shift this fall or maybe early next year early next year early next year um and you know i've got a kind of core um and you know i've got a kind of core um and you know i've got a kind of core group around me group around me group around me that agrees with that um but you know that agrees with that um but you know that agrees with that um but you know they anticipate a bit of resistance what they anticipate a bit of resistance what they anticipate a bit of resistance what are are are a couple just practical tactics to start a couple just practical tactics to start a couple just practical tactics to start with with with um you know it's not going to be the um you know it's not going to be the um you know it's not going to be the whole thing it's not the whole book but whole thing it's not the whole book but whole thing it's not the whole book but one or two little first steps one or two little first steps one or two little first steps towards that change number one focus on towards that change number one focus on towards that change number one focus on why um why um why um i think a lot of leaders get tripped up i think a lot of leaders get tripped up i think a lot of leaders get tripped up on what and how and so on what and how and so on what and how and so the the reason it's what simon sinek the the reason it's what simon sinek the the reason it's what simon sinek says right that people buy what you do says right that people buy what you do says right that people buy what you do not what you do not what you do not what you do they buy why you do it not what you do they buy why you do it not what you do they buy why you do it not what you do and i think that's true you know and i think that's true you know and i think that's true you know every time you open your mouth as a every time you open your mouth as a every time you open your mouth as a leader you need to explain why leader you need to explain why leader you need to explain why so lead with why pepper all your private so lead with why pepper all your private so lead with why pepper all your private and public communication your written

and public communication your written and public communication your written communication your vision vision casting communication your vision vision casting communication your vision vision casting with why and and then talk about the with why and and then talk about the with why and and then talk about the what and the how but why almost what and the how but why almost what and the how but why almost always unites and what and how almost always unites and what and how almost always unites and what and how almost always divides always divides always divides the other thing i would talk about is the other thing i would talk about is the other thing i would talk about is patrick lancione calls it patrick lancione calls it patrick lancione calls it um cascading communication you can also um cascading communication you can also um cascading communication you can also look at it in terms of communicating in look at it in terms of communicating in look at it in terms of communicating in concentric circles concentric circles concentric circles so start with your core team where you so start with your core team where you so start with your core team where you actually get input actually get input actually get input then go a little bit wider to your next then go a little bit wider to your next then go a little bit wider to your next level so we have a level of government level so we have a level of government level so we have a level of government in our system the north point system in our system the north point system in our system the north point system called mtr's ministry team called mtr's ministry team called mtr's ministry team representatives representatives representatives will bounce change off them first like will bounce change off them first like will bounce change off them first like hey this isn't a decision hey this isn't a decision hey this isn't a decision we just want to get your input right and we just want to get your input right and we just want to get your input right and then when people then when people then when people who are close to you and share your who are close to you and share your who are close to you and share your strategical start start layering it and you know start start layering it and you know what else people love to be the first to what else people love to be the first to what else people love to be the first to know know know if if you can give them if you can give if if you can give them if you can give if if you can give them if you can give them them them um an inside track and we've we've just um an inside track and we've we've just um an inside track and we've we've just really in the last year ramped that really in the last year ramped that really in the last year ramped that up it's like hey i want you to be the up it's like hey i want you to be the up it's like hey i want you to be the first to know that this is something first to know that this is something first to know that this is something we're looking at we're looking at we're looking at and really not keep any secrets i think and really not keep any secrets i think and really not keep any secrets i think once in a while a personnel decision once in a while a personnel decision once in a while a personnel decision is something you don't talk about but we is something you don't talk about but we is something you don't talk about but we always say look there's no secrets at always say look there's no secrets at always say look there's no secrets at connexus connexus connexus we're not going to communicate this we're not going to communicate this we're not going to communicate this publicly yet but you're in the room and publicly yet but you're in the room and publicly yet but you're in the room and you can know you can know you can know we're negotiating with cineplex odeon on we're negotiating with cineplex odeon on we're negotiating with cineplex odeon on a permanent deal where

a permanent deal where a permanent deal where you know if you if you can make it you know if you if you can make it you know if you if you can make it public do and then people feel like oh public do and then people feel like oh public do and then people feel like oh if i if i if i you know i'm part of this and so they you know i'm part of this and so they you know i'm part of this and so they feel some skin in the game some feel some skin in the game some feel some skin in the game some ownership ownership ownership even before it gets trotted out publicly even before it gets trotted out publicly even before it gets trotted out publicly and when you've got a hundred people and when you've got a hundred people and when you've got a hundred people sitting in you know a sunday service sitting in you know a sunday service sitting in you know a sunday service where something is announced where something is announced where something is announced and they already knew it you've already and they already knew it you've already and they already knew it you've already got a hundred evangelists got a hundred evangelists got a hundred evangelists absolutely yeah for sure um anything absolutely yeah for sure um anything absolutely yeah for sure um anything else on this change topic there's a lot else on this change topic there's a lot else on this change topic there's a lot you know there's a lot here you know there's a lot here you know there's a lot here you've written a book on it uh you know you've written a book on it uh you know you've written a book on it uh you know it's uh you know anything else that you it's uh you know anything else that you it's uh you know anything else that you know that you want to make sure we get know that you want to make sure we get know that you want to make sure we get in in in i would just say you know the big goal i would just say you know the big goal i would just say you know the big goal um and real short is um and real short is um and real short is focus on who you want to reach not who focus on who you want to reach not who focus on who you want to reach not who you want to keep and you want to keep and you want to keep and and the biggest thing that i find hangs and the biggest thing that i find hangs and the biggest thing that i find hangs up leaders in the midst of change up leaders in the midst of change up leaders in the midst of change is that you're only ever going to hear is that you're only ever going to hear is that you're only ever going to hear from the people from the people from the people that want you to keep them you're never that want you to keep them you're never that want you to keep them you're never going to hear from the people who you going to hear from the people who you going to hear from the people who you want to reach you know unchurched people want to reach you know unchurched people want to reach you know unchurched people don't randomly email you and go hey if don't randomly email you and go hey if don't randomly email you and go hey if you did this i'd come to your church you did this i'd come to your church you did this i'd come to your church they just don't do that they don't call they just don't do that they don't call they just don't do that they don't call you they don't text you they're like you they don't text you they're like you they don't text you they're like whoa whoa whoa you know they're silent and so in in the you know they're silent and so in in the you know they're silent and so in in the same sense that same sense that same sense that if you're in a position of power or if you're in a position of power or if you're in a position of power or influence you need to think about how influence you need to think about how influence you need to think about how god wants you to use that power god wants you to use that power god wants you to use that power influence to benefit people who don't influence to benefit people who don't influence to benefit people who don't have power and influence have power and influence have power and influence i think when you're a church leader even i think when you're a church leader even i think when you're a church leader even if you're an organizational leader if you're an organizational leader if you're an organizational leader you've got to think about the customer you've got to think about the customer you've got to think about the customer you haven't reached not just the you haven't reached not just the you haven't reached not just the customer you have you got to think about customer you have you got to think about customer you have you got to think about the person that the person that the person that isn't in the room not just the people isn't in the room not just the people isn't in the room not just the people who are in the room and i think who are in the room and i think who are in the room and i think leaders that maintain that focus and are leaders that maintain that focus and are leaders that maintain that focus and are able to share that focus able to share that focus able to share that focus widely in the organization are going to widely in the organization are going to widely in the organization are going to do the best when it comes to change and do the best when it comes to change and do the best when it comes to change and creating a culture of change

creating a culture of change creating a culture of change yeah you know friends i i can just yeah you know friends i i can just yeah you know friends i i can just reinforce what kerry's saying he reinforce what kerry's saying he reinforce what kerry's saying he actually lives out a part of what i actually lives out a part of what i actually lives out a part of what i appreciate about kerry is leadership appreciate about kerry is leadership appreciate about kerry is leadership connexus their church connexus their church connexus their church is when you cut them they bleed hey we is when you cut them they bleed hey we is when you cut them they bleed hey we want to be a church for unchurched want to be a church for unchurched want to be a church for unchurched people people people that's what they talk about all the time that's what they talk about all the time that's what they talk about all the time they're obsessed with it um they're obsessed with it um they're obsessed with it um which which really i think does drive which which really i think does drive which which really i think does drive like we were talking about they're like we were talking about they're like we were talking about they're leading with the why leading with the why leading with the why it it becomes the conversation piece it it becomes the conversation piece it it becomes the conversation piece that is the benchmark of them which they that is the benchmark of them which they that is the benchmark of them which they judge everything so judge everything so judge everything so i appreciate care of your leadership not i appreciate care of your leadership not i appreciate care of your leadership not only but then also on the focus of only but then also on the focus of only but then also on the focus of staying staying staying clear on that mission i appreciate that clear on that mission i appreciate that clear on that mission i appreciate that rich and you know just to encourage rich and you know just to encourage rich and you know just to encourage people people people when we started to grow most of our when we started to grow most of our when we started to grow most of our growth did not come from unchurched growth did not come from unchurched growth did not come from unchurched people people people right um this is 18 i'm 18 years into right um this is 18 i'm 18 years into right um this is 18 i'm 18 years into this so this so this so in the first decade it was probably in the first decade it was probably in the first decade it was probably about 30 unchurched people and 60 about 30 unchurched people and 60 about 30 unchurched people and 60 church growth but that's flipped in the church growth but that's flipped in the church growth but that's flipped in the last few years where last few years where last few years where 60 of our people are self-identified on 60 of our people are self-identified on 60 of our people are self-identified on church people we don't like hey i think church people we don't like hey i think church people we don't like hey i think they're in church like they tell us they're in church like they tell us they're in church like they tell us they're unchurched they're unchurched they're unchurched um and that's great and so remember that um and that's great and so remember that um and that's great and so remember that you can change something in two or three you can change something in two or three you can change something in two or three years years years but it takes probably five to seven but it takes probably five to seven but it takes probably five to seven years to transform it years to transform it years to transform it and the transformation happens with and the transformation happens with and the transformation happens with change when it becomes part of who you change when it becomes part of who you change when it becomes part of who you are and embed it in your culture are and embed it in your culture are and embed it in your culture and so if you're in the middle of change and so if you're in the middle of change and so if you're in the middle of change don't give up you're probably going to don't give up you're probably going to don't give up you're probably going to be most tempted to quit be most tempted to quit be most tempted to quit moments before your critical moments before your critical moments before your critical breakthrough all right i said we were breakthrough all right i said we were breakthrough all right i said we were coming to the end but i have one more coming to the end but i have one more coming to the end but i have one more question i want to slip in question i want to slip in question i want to slip in um this is again a bit more personal do um this is again a bit more personal do um this is again a bit more personal do you feel like as you you feel like as you you feel like as you kind of progress along in your kind of progress along in your kind of progress along in your leadership journey um leadership journey um leadership journey um just personally you're um kind of

just personally you're um kind of just personally you're um kind of more open to change and more open to more open to change and more open to more open to change and more open to risk or less risk or less risk or less what is your own personal dynamics on what is your own personal dynamics on what is your own personal dynamics on that yeah you know what that's a great that yeah you know what that's a great that yeah you know what that's a great question and i'd say i'm in the middle question and i'd say i'm in the middle question and i'd say i'm in the middle of that right now i think as you get of that right now i think as you get of that right now i think as you get older and i think the longer you're in older and i think the longer you're in older and i think the longer you're in leadership and the more successful you leadership and the more successful you leadership and the more successful you become the more become the more become the more change of verse you become particularly change of verse you become particularly change of verse you become particularly if something is successful if something is successful if something is successful you're really worried about wrecking it you're really worried about wrecking it you're really worried about wrecking it i also think i also think i also think we're in the middle of a massive we're in the middle of a massive we're in the middle of a massive cultural shift you write about it all cultural shift you write about it all cultural shift you write about it all the time rich and i mean you're the time rich and i mean you're the time rich and i mean you're you're up on trends like crazy and so you're up on trends like crazy and so you're up on trends like crazy and so the way i'm looking at it now the way i'm looking at it now the way i'm looking at it now and i hope to write another book the and i hope to write another book the and i hope to write another book the third book in the in the change trilogy third book in the in the change trilogy third book in the in the change trilogy will be on creating a culture of success will be on creating a culture of success will be on creating a culture of success but the early notes on that for me at but the early notes on that for me at but the early notes on that for me at least are least are least are maintain what you've got but constantly maintain what you've got but constantly maintain what you've got but constantly innovate and experiment innovate and experiment innovate and experiment and you can experiment on the side you and you can experiment on the side you and you can experiment on the side you and and i think an and and i think an and and i think an organization that loses its experimental organization that loses its experimental organization that loses its experimental entrepreneurial entrepreneurial entrepreneurial let's just preserve at all costs you're let's just preserve at all costs you're let's just preserve at all costs you're coming real close to the cliff coming real close to the cliff coming real close to the cliff and it's only a matter of time until you and it's only a matter of time until you and it's only a matter of time until you fall off so fall off so fall off so i think when you've got success when i think when you've got success when i think when you've got success when you've got momentum and we're in a you've got momentum and we're in a you've got momentum and we're in a season of momentum right now season of momentum right now season of momentum right now you want to make sure that yes you got you want to make sure that yes you got you want to make sure that yes you got to preserve what what god has built and to preserve what what god has built and to preserve what what god has built and what you've accomplished but what you've accomplished but what you've accomplished but never ever lose so i am pushing myself never ever lose so i am pushing myself never ever lose so i am pushing myself to innovate and experiment and fail to innovate and experiment and fail to innovate and experiment and fail but you have to fail in areas that isn't but you have to fail in areas that isn't but you have to fail in areas that isn't sometimes you got to fail in areas that sometimes you got to fail in areas that sometimes you got to fail in areas that might cost you the whole organization might cost you the whole organization might cost you the whole organization but i think it's smarter to experiment but i think it's smarter to experiment but i think it's smarter to experiment on the side on the side on the side and so we're doing a social media and so we're doing a social media and so we're doing a social media experiment right now

experiment right now experiment right now we don't even know whether it's gonna we don't even know whether it's gonna we don't even know whether it's gonna work but it doesn't cost us fifty work but it doesn't cost us fifty work but it doesn't cost us fifty thousand it cost us five thousand thousand it cost us five thousand thousand it cost us five thousand and we're going to find out whether it and we're going to find out whether it and we're going to find out whether it works and we're always adjusting the works and we're always adjusting the works and we're always adjusting the sales and sales and sales and always playing around and we'll play always playing around and we'll play always playing around and we'll play like we're doing something off model for like we're doing something off model for like we're doing something off model for a north point a north point a north point um church not you know we're not being um church not you know we're not being um church not you know we're not being just just just disobedient or whatever but we're just disobedient or whatever but we're just disobedient or whatever but we're just trying some stuff trying some stuff trying some stuff that um we're just experimenting with that um we're just experimenting with that um we're just experimenting with and if it doesn't work you just shut it and if it doesn't work you just shut it and if it doesn't work you just shut it down down down so i think you can lose that and i think so i think you can lose that and i think so i think you can lose that and i think the older you get and the more the older you get and the more the older you get and the more successful you get older in age but also successful you get older in age but also successful you get older in age but also older as an organization the more older as an organization the more older as an organization the more successful the less you will innovate successful the less you will innovate successful the less you will innovate the less you'll experiment the less you'll experiment the less you'll experiment this is the unseminary podcast stuff you this is the unseminary podcast stuff you this is the unseminary podcast stuff you wish they taught in seminary wish they taught in seminary wish they taught in seminary all right here we are at the lightning all right here we are at the lightning all right here we are at the lightning round uh where we asked some questions round uh where we asked some questions round uh where we asked some questions of a church leader to kind of understand of a church leader to kind of understand of a church leader to kind of understand what's happening in their world so what's happening in their world so what's happening in their world so carrie carrie carrie um are there any kind of online um are there any kind of online um are there any kind of online resources that you use in your ministry resources that you use in your ministry resources that you use in your ministry that that that you know you find particularly helpful i you know you find particularly helpful i you know you find particularly helpful i just feel so intimidated just feel so intimidated just feel so intimidated with you asking me that question because with you asking me that question because with you asking me that question because you're the guy who always finds this you're the guy who always finds this you're the guy who always finds this stuff you're out foraging in the forest stuff you're out foraging in the forest stuff you're out foraging in the forest finding new things so finding new things so finding new things so you know i mean a couple of obvious ones you know i mean a couple of obvious ones you know i mean a couple of obvious ones that i think a lot of people would i'm that i think a lot of people would i'm that i think a lot of people would i'm trying to use evernote i mean i was on a trying to use evernote i mean i was on a trying to use evernote i mean i was on a bike ride this morning bike ride this morning bike ride this morning and all my good ideas come when i'm not and all my good ideas come when i'm not and all my good ideas come when i'm not trying to generate good ideas trying to generate good ideas trying to generate good ideas and so i'm cycling and i have my phone and so i'm cycling and i have my phone and so i'm cycling and i have my phone and i'm listening to a podcast and i'm listening to a podcast and i'm listening to a podcast and i just switch to evernote and i hit and i just switch to evernote and i hit and i just switch to evernote and i hit the record and i've got my little iphone the record and i've got my little iphone the record and i've got my little iphone um earbuds in and i just recorded a um earbuds in and i just recorded a um earbuds in and i just recorded a couple of those couple of those couple of those voice files because i know if if you're voice files because i know if if you're voice files because i know if if you're like me by the time you get home like me by the time you get home like me by the time you get home you've forgotten it so sometimes in the you've forgotten it so sometimes in the you've forgotten it so sometimes in the car i'll just record directly car i'll just record directly car i'll just record directly to evernote and that's been a lot of fun

to evernote and that's been a lot of fun to evernote and that's been a lot of fun um i'm using uh the mailbox app oh my um i'm using uh the mailbox app oh my um i'm using uh the mailbox app oh my god that's great yeah that's a great app god that's great yeah that's a great app god that's great yeah that's a great app it's a lot of fun and other than that um it's a lot of fun and other than that um it's a lot of fun and other than that um i don't know i use things for task i don't know i use things for task i don't know i use things for task management management management um and uh all the innovative people will um and uh all the innovative people will um and uh all the innovative people will go yeah okay go yeah okay go yeah okay no those are all good those are those no those are all good those are those no those are all good those are those are fun things for me and um are fun things for me and um are fun things for me and um i do like technology and i can't wait um i do like technology and i can't wait um i do like technology and i can't wait um to upgrade this is a fall of upgrading to upgrade this is a fall of upgrading to upgrade this is a fall of upgrading so new ipad new phone new everything so so new ipad new phone new everything so so new ipad new phone new everything so we'll see where that goes we'll see where that goes we'll see where that goes oh you're gonna get the new life the new oh you're gonna get the new life the new oh you're gonna get the new life the new iphone that'll be nice i think so yeah i iphone that'll be nice i think so yeah i iphone that'll be nice i think so yeah i think i'm still rocking a four think i'm still rocking a four think i'm still rocking a four and uh i went on a spending fast for a and uh i went on a spending fast for a and uh i went on a spending fast for a year so last christmas year so last christmas year so last christmas my uh my cousin's son my uh my cousin's son my uh my cousin's son five-year-old uh he said can i take a five-year-old uh he said can i take a five-year-old uh he said can i take a picture with your phone handed it back picture with your phone handed it back picture with your phone handed it back to me he goes dude your phone is so slow to me he goes dude your phone is so slow to me he goes dude your phone is so slow and when five-year-olds are telling you and when five-year-olds are telling you and when five-year-olds are telling you you have a slow phone you have a slow phone you have a slow phone it's probably time to upgrade that's it's probably time to upgrade that's it's probably time to upgrade that's funny you know you should go htc one man funny you know you should go htc one man funny you know you should go htc one man the android phone that is a fantastic the android phone that is a fantastic the android phone that is a fantastic phone but phone but phone but you love that phone is that what you're you love that phone is that what you're you love that phone is that what you're using right now yeah that's what i use using right now yeah that's what i use using right now yeah that's what i use right now it's a fantastic phone it's i right now it's a fantastic phone it's i right now it's a fantastic phone it's i think it's the one that the think it's the one that the think it's the one that the they finally nailed like okay this is they finally nailed like okay this is they finally nailed like okay this is actually it's a good really good android actually it's a good really good android actually it's a good really good android so you like it better than the s4 so you like it better than the s4 so you like it better than the s4 i do yeah i don't like all the samsung i do yeah i don't like all the samsung i do yeah i don't like all the samsung stuff although okay they have all that stuff although okay they have all that stuff although okay they have all that like they have all like they put their like they have all like they put their like they have all like they put their their stuff on top of android i don't their stuff on top of android i don't their stuff on top of android i don't like it but gotcha like it but gotcha like it but gotcha anyway so what are some books you're anyway so what are some books you're anyway so what are some books you're reading these days that are impacting reading these days that are impacting reading these days that are impacting your ministry your ministry your ministry and thinking well a couple that come to and thinking well a couple that come to and thinking well a couple that come to mind right now mind right now mind right now i'd say honestly i mean deep and wide a i'd say honestly i mean deep and wide a i'd say honestly i mean deep and wide a lot of people have read that book

lot of people have read that book lot of people have read that book and um we're in north point partner and um we're in north point partner and um we're in north point partner world so that's been fantastic world so that's been fantastic world so that's been fantastic a lot of that was stuff that we've had a lot of that was stuff that we've had a lot of that was stuff that we've had leaked over the years but it's now all leaked over the years but it's now all leaked over the years but it's now all on paper we can share with our on paper we can share with our on paper we can share with our volunteers volunteers volunteers reggie joyner who i also work with wrote reggie joyner who i also work with wrote reggie joyner who i also work with wrote a book a book a book that is just the sleeper of 2013. that is just the sleeper of 2013. that is just the sleeper of 2013. it's called zombies football and the it's called zombies football and the it's called zombies football and the gospel i think they're going to gospel i think they're going to gospel i think they're going to re-market it and re-launch it re-market it and re-launch it re-market it and re-launch it right but we went through it with our right but we went through it with our right but we went through it with our leadership team and leadership team and leadership team and um you know andy stanley's description um you know andy stanley's description um you know andy stanley's description of reggie joyner is reggie's always off of reggie joyner is reggie's always off of reggie joyner is reggie's always off in the forest finding new things and in the forest finding new things and in the forest finding new things and discovering new things then he comes discovering new things then he comes discovering new things then he comes back and reports and that book back and reports and that book back and reports and that book has got his best thinking on trends in has got his best thinking on trends in has got his best thinking on trends in the church it's called the church it's called the church it's called zombies football and the gospel it's zombies football and the gospel it's zombies football and the gospel it's available at the orange store and you available at the orange store and you available at the orange store and you can get it off what is orange.org can get it off what is orange.org can get it off what is orange.org and we went through it as a leadership and we went through it as a leadership and we went through it as a leadership team it just got us asking questions team it just got us asking questions team it just got us asking questions that really i don't see anybody else that really i don't see anybody else that really i don't see anybody else asking asking asking so that was great and then we're reading so that was great and then we're reading so that was great and then we're reading the advantage by patrick lencioni i'm a the advantage by patrick lencioni i'm a the advantage by patrick lencioni i'm a huge lencione fan huge lencione fan huge lencione fan and this is a synthesis of really his and this is a synthesis of really his and this is a synthesis of really his life's work and we're just in the final life's work and we're just in the final life's work and we're just in the final stages of stages of stages of reading through that as a leadership reading through that as a leadership reading through that as a leadership team so it's been fantastic those are team so it's been fantastic those are team so it's been fantastic those are three books i'd recommend three books i'd recommend three books i'd recommend cool yeah zombies football in the gospel cool yeah zombies football in the gospel cool yeah zombies football in the gospel i think they gave that away at orange a i think they gave that away at orange a i think they gave that away at orange a couple years ago right couple years ago right couple years ago right they did actually and and then it's for they did actually and and then it's for they did actually and and then it's for sale now sale now sale now i don't know what it is but man i picked i don't know what it is but man i picked i don't know what it is but man i picked up copies for our whole team up copies for our whole team up copies for our whole team and it's just it's a quirky fun and it's just it's a quirky fun and it's just it's a quirky fun um but really deeply challenging book on um but really deeply challenging book on um but really deeply challenging book on trends in the future and one of them is trends in the future and one of them is trends in the future and one of them is is you know what are you going to do is you know what are you going to do is you know what are you going to do to reach all the people who will just to reach all the people who will just to reach all the people who will just never come to your church right never come to your church right never come to your church right period period right like they will never period period right like they will never period period right like they will never gather in your space on a sunday morning

gather in your space on a sunday morning gather in your space on a sunday morning and that might be 90 and that might be 90 and that might be 90 of the unchurched people are just never of the unchurched people are just never of the unchurched people are just never ever going to show up at liquid church ever going to show up at liquid church ever going to show up at liquid church or connexxus or connexxus or connexxus like what do you do with that well who's like what do you do with that well who's like what do you do with that well who's and reggie now is actually early next and reggie now is actually early next and reggie now is actually early next year going to be unveiling some things year going to be unveiling some things year going to be unveiling some things for that so that would be really fun for that so that would be really fun for that so that would be really fun cool nice what are some other ministries cool nice what are some other ministries cool nice what are some other ministries you know you had mentioned you know you had mentioned you know you had mentioned north point um obviously reggie with north point um obviously reggie with north point um obviously reggie with orange um other ministries that are orange um other ministries that are orange um other ministries that are inspiring you inspiring you inspiring you i love tracking um what's happening in i love tracking um what's happening in i love tracking um what's happening in nashville with cross point um pete nashville with cross point um pete nashville with cross point um pete wilson jenny catron who wilson jenny catron who wilson jenny catron who uh you've got an interview with on the uh you've got an interview with on the uh you've got an interview with on the on the podcast on the podcast on the podcast i spent some time over the last little i spent some time over the last little i spent some time over the last little while with while with while with ncc in washington national community ncc in washington national community ncc in washington national community church mark batterson and his team church mark batterson and his team church mark batterson and his team one of the things i really like both one of the things i really like both one of the things i really like both about cross point and about about cross point and about about cross point and about national community church is they've got national community church is they've got national community church is they've got a pretty glamorous a pretty glamorous a pretty glamorous front image but when i spoke at cross front image but when i spoke at cross front image but when i spoke at cross point and then when i've been at um point and then when i've been at um point and then when i've been at um at mark's church it's at mark's church it's at mark's church it's pretty basic operations crosspoint has a pretty basic operations crosspoint has a pretty basic operations crosspoint has a brand new campus and everything but if brand new campus and everything but if brand new campus and everything but if you'd ever been to their old one you'd ever been to their old one you'd ever been to their old one like the only part of the church that like the only part of the church that like the only part of the church that was really cool was was really cool was was really cool was the set that people taught from the set that people taught from the set that people taught from everything else was like everything else was like everything else was like macgyvered from 1960s baptist world macgyvered from 1960s baptist world macgyvered from 1960s baptist world and they created a growing church on a and they created a growing church on a and they created a growing church on a shoestring budget shoestring budget shoestring budget same with ncc i mean their staff don't same with ncc i mean their staff don't same with ncc i mean their staff don't even have a building there that you even have a building there that you even have a building there that you could throw a stone from capitol hill could throw a stone from capitol hill could throw a stone from capitol hill to um to their theater campus and their to um to their theater campus and their to um to their theater campus and their staff can't even really all be in the staff can't even really all be in the staff can't even really all be in the same place together because they don't same place together because they don't same place together because they don't have enough have enough have enough room but they're incredibly effective

room but they're incredibly effective room but they're incredibly effective uh and and they just i guess the best uh and and they just i guess the best uh and and they just i guess the best word is they macgyver everything they word is they macgyver everything they word is they macgyver everything they just figure out how to do it just figure out how to do it just figure out how to do it and i love churches with that and i love churches with that and i love churches with that entrepreneurial spirit because often the entrepreneurial spirit because often the entrepreneurial spirit because often the impression is well you know if we had 10 impression is well you know if we had 10 impression is well you know if we had 10 million dollars we'd be just as million dollars we'd be just as million dollars we'd be just as effective as them effective as them effective as them we need to go and visit some of those we need to go and visit some of those we need to go and visit some of those churches and see how innovative they're churches and see how innovative they're churches and see how innovative they're being being being on limited resources just like everybody on limited resources just like everybody on limited resources just like everybody else just like what you guys are doing else just like what you guys are doing else just like what you guys are doing with your brand new campus with your brand new campus with your brand new campus right trying to piece it together um so right trying to piece it together um so right trying to piece it together um so you let's say you get 15 minutes with you let's say you get 15 minutes with you let's say you get 15 minutes with any leader that's alive today any leader that's alive today any leader that's alive today uh who would you uh you know want to be uh who would you uh you know want to be uh who would you uh you know want to be with and why would you want to talk with with and why would you want to talk with with and why would you want to talk with them well i got to say them well i got to say them well i got to say honestly as a north point strategic honestly as a north point strategic honestly as a north point strategic partner i do have the opportunity to partner i do have the opportunity to partner i do have the opportunity to spend time with andy stanley spend time with andy stanley spend time with andy stanley so that would be my answer but that so that would be my answer but that so that would be my answer but that that's going to happen so that's going to happen so that's going to happen so i would you know who i would say a guy i would you know who i would say a guy i would you know who i would say a guy i've never met would love to meet i've never met would love to meet i've never met would love to meet tim keller like i just love tim keller i tim keller like i just love tim keller i tim keller like i just love tim keller i can't get enough of his podcasts can't get enough of his podcasts can't get enough of his podcasts his books um and having a mainline his books um and having a mainline his books um and having a mainline church background but being an church background but being an church background but being an evangelical and now being an evangelical evangelical and now being an evangelical evangelical and now being an evangelical church he church he church he really embodies for me so much of what i really embodies for me so much of what i really embodies for me so much of what i love about mainline tradition love about mainline tradition love about mainline tradition um he's scholarly he's wise um he's scholarly he's wise um he's scholarly he's wise uh i mean i don't know how old tim is uh i mean i don't know how old tim is uh i mean i don't know how old tim is he's got to be in his 50s or early 60s he's got to be in his 50s or early 60s he's got to be in his 50s or early 60s but um he has so much enthusiasm and but um he has so much enthusiasm and but um he has so much enthusiasm and here's a guy here's a guy here's a guy who's like not um super cool who's like not um super cool who's like not um super cool who is really scholarly who is who is really scholarly who is who is really scholarly who is knocking it out of the park with 20 and knocking it out of the park with 20 and knocking it out of the park with 20 and 30 something 30 something 30 something new yorkers like talk about the hardest new yorkers like talk about the hardest new yorkers like talk about the hardest market to reach market to reach market to reach in a mainline context and he's just wise

in a mainline context and he's just wise in a mainline context and he's just wise he's the kind of guy that if you just he's the kind of guy that if you just he's the kind of guy that if you just hung out with i think hung out with i think hung out with i think for a day you would be 10 times wiser for a day you would be 10 times wiser for a day you would be 10 times wiser than when you woke up in the morning so than when you woke up in the morning so than when you woke up in the morning so tim keller yeah you know he's tim keller yeah you know he's tim keller yeah you know he's interesting because he is definitely interesting because he is definitely interesting because he is definitely like i think a lot of times when we like i think a lot of times when we like i think a lot of times when we think of like relevance in church we think of like relevance in church we think of like relevance in church we think of like think of like think of like lots of moving lights and like a rock lots of moving lights and like a rock lots of moving lights and like a rock band band band but he's but he is like that he is but he's but he is like that he is but he's but he is like that he is incredibly relevant for his context he's incredibly relevant for his context he's incredibly relevant for his context he's he's reaching the people um in new york he's reaching the people um in new york he's reaching the people um in new york city he's doing the same thing that the city he's doing the same thing that the city he's doing the same thing that the cool rock band church with lots of cool rock band church with lots of cool rock band church with lots of lights is trying to do lights is trying to do lights is trying to do but in a totally different way so right but in a totally different way so right but in a totally different way so right and i mean if you go to a service it's and i mean if you go to a service it's and i mean if you go to a service it's still still still quite traditional i mean it's not super quite traditional i mean it's not super quite traditional i mean it's not super high tech sometimes you hear the mic high tech sometimes you hear the mic high tech sometimes you hear the mic being being being banged you know in the podcast um banged you know in the podcast um banged you know in the podcast um but and he has a way i was listening to but and he has a way i was listening to but and he has a way i was listening to a message he did and he was explaining a message he did and he was explaining a message he did and he was explaining satan and evil to satan and evil to satan and evil to young manhattanites and i'm kind of like young manhattanites and i'm kind of like young manhattanites and i'm kind of like okay if you can do that you just you win okay if you can do that you just you win okay if you can do that you just you win a prize i don't know what it is but you a prize i don't know what it is but you a prize i don't know what it is but you win win win yeah very cool nice all right so when yeah very cool nice all right so when yeah very cool nice all right so when you're going to kick back and just have you're going to kick back and just have you're going to kick back and just have a little bit of fun a little bit of fun a little bit of fun uh what do you like to do love to road uh what do you like to do love to road uh what do you like to do love to road ride ride ride that's fun that's become a little bit of that's fun that's become a little bit of that's fun that's become a little bit of uh an obsession so uh an obsession so uh an obsession so cycling has has been great um i'm on cycling has has been great um i'm on cycling has has been great um i'm on strava now so that just makes me want to strava now so that just makes me want to strava now so that just makes me want to get out even more get out even more get out even more what's drava what's that you know what what's drava what's that you know what what's drava what's that you know what it's it's a weird i have like nine it's it's a weird i have like nine it's it's a weird i have like nine followers on strava and i'm so proud of followers on strava and i'm so proud of followers on strava and i'm so proud of that um it is a social media app that um it is a social media app that um it is a social media app for cyclists cycling enthusiasts and for cyclists cycling enthusiasts and for cyclists cycling enthusiasts and what it does is it's gps enabled like a what it does is it's gps enabled like a what it does is it's gps enabled like a million apps out there million apps out there million apps out there except it ranks you on known segments so

except it ranks you on known segments so except it ranks you on known segments so it tells you it tells you it tells you that your time was you know 15th out of that your time was you know 15th out of that your time was you know 15th out of 42. 42. 42. and so wow yeah it's a little bit and so wow yeah it's a little bit and so wow yeah it's a little bit competitive competitive competitive and it's fun and there's lots of guys and it's fun and there's lots of guys and it's fun and there's lots of guys around here who cycle other than that i around here who cycle other than that i around here who cycle other than that i love to write like my writing blog love to write like my writing blog love to write like my writing blog that's a hobby that's a hobby that's a hobby and hanging out with family and friends and hanging out with family and friends and hanging out with family and friends nice well carrie thanks so much for nice well carrie thanks so much for nice well carrie thanks so much for being on the show i really appreciate being on the show i really appreciate being on the show i really appreciate your time today i know you're a busy your time today i know you're a busy your time today i know you're a busy leader leader leader if people want to get in touch with you if people want to get in touch with you if people want to get in touch with you how can they do that um yeah you know how can they do that um yeah you know how can they do that um yeah you know the easiest way is right off the blog the easiest way is right off the blog the easiest way is right off the blog it's just my name carrie newhof.com it's just my name carrie newhof.com it's just my name carrie newhof.com c-a-r-e-y n-i-e-u-w c-a-r-e-y n-i-e-u-w c-a-r-e-y n-i-e-u-w h-o-f i know you got that on h-o-f i know you got that on h-o-f i know you got that on um frisco.com uh our church is um frisco.com uh our church is um frisco.com uh our church is connexxuscommunity.com you can email me connexxuscommunity.com you can email me connexxuscommunity.com you can email me right off that website right off that website right off that website and uh i would love to have a and uh i would love to have a and uh i would love to have a conversation great thanks so much carrie conversation great thanks so much carrie conversation great thanks so much carrie okay this is the unseminary podcast okay this is the unseminary podcast okay this is the unseminary podcast stuff you wish they taught in seminary stuff you wish they taught in seminary stuff you wish they taught in seminary wow man it was so great having carrie on wow man it was so great having carrie on wow man it was so great having carrie on the show what a gift the show what a gift the show what a gift today two things as we head out first of today two things as we head out first of today two things as we head out first of all have you been to the strategy all have you been to the strategy all have you been to the strategy section at unseminary.com section at unseminary.com section at unseminary.com drop by there today and click on the drop by there today and click on the drop by there today and click on the strategy button and you'll see strategy button and you'll see strategy button and you'll see there's tons of articles in there to there's tons of articles in there to there's tons of articles in there to help you think through the way that you help you think through the way that you help you think through the way that you do ministry do ministry do ministry a lot of what we talked about today was a lot of what we talked about today was a lot of what we talked about today was as helping people understand and as helping people understand and as helping people understand and articulate their strategy so articulate their strategy so articulate their strategy so you know check those out those will be a you know check those out those will be a you know check those out those will be a free resource for you and second of all free resource for you and second of all free resource for you and second of all you know you're going to go into a you know you're going to go into a you know you're going to go into a church this weekend church this weekend church this weekend that maybe isn't the kind of church you that maybe isn't the kind of church you that maybe isn't the kind of church you want to lead at there's things you wish want to lead at there's things you wish want to lead at there's things you wish were different but let me be encourage were different but let me be encourage were different but let me be encourage you today you today you today you can make changes this weekend even you can make changes this weekend even you can make changes this weekend even if it's a one percent incremental change if it's a one percent incremental change if it's a one percent incremental change that may take years to come to fruition that may take years to come to fruition that may take years to come to fruition it may take a long time before

it may take a long time before it may take a long time before everything shapes up exactly how you everything shapes up exactly how you everything shapes up exactly how you want it want it want it but make those changes push forward this but make those changes push forward this but make those changes push forward this weekend make the changes weekend make the changes weekend make the changes that you believe god's calling you to that you believe god's calling you to that you believe god's calling you to make thank you for tuning in to this make thank you for tuning in to this make thank you for tuning in to this week's on seminary podcast week's on seminary podcast week's on seminary podcast don't be shy we'd love to connect check don't be shy we'd love to connect check don't be shy we'd love to connect check out unseminary inbox you can sign up at out unseminary inbox you can sign up at out unseminary inbox you can sign up at unseminary.com unseminary.com unseminary.com and we'll send you helpful training and we'll send you helpful training and we'll send you helpful training resources every week plus resources every week plus resources every week plus you'll gain immediate access to our you'll gain immediate access to our you'll gain immediate access to our exclusive members area with tons of exclusive members area with tons of exclusive members area with tons of resources you can use resources you can use resources you can use connect with rich on twitter at rich connect with rich on twitter at rich connect with rich on twitter at rich birch or through email birch or through email birch or through email rich unseminary.com don't forget to rich unseminary.com don't forget to rich unseminary.com don't forget to check out the show notes for this check out the show notes for this check out the show notes for this episode at unseminary.com episode at unseminary.com episode at unseminary.com it includes links to what we talked it includes links to what we talked it includes links to what we talked about today and more about today and more about today and more leave a comment we'd love to hear from leave a comment we'd love to hear from leave a comment we'd love to hear from you did you enjoy today's episode drop you did you enjoy today's episode drop you did you enjoy today's episode drop by itunes and leave a review thanks by itunes and leave a review thanks by itunes and leave a review thanks again for tuning in to this week's on again for tuning in to this week's on again for tuning in to this week's on seminary podcast seminary podcast seminary podcast join us next week when we'll learn more join us next week when we'll learn more join us next week when we'll learn more stuff we wish they taught in seminary