Mike Bonem on Leading and Thriving from the Second Chair

as an Operations pastor I know how hard as an Operations pastor I know how hard it is to hire the right people I also it is to hire the right people I also it is to hire the right people I also know how hard it is to hire the right know how hard it is to hire the right know how hard it is to hire the right people in ministry that's why I'm people in ministry that's why I'm people in ministry that's why I'm thankful for my friends at the van der thankful for my friends at the van der thankful for my friends at the van der bloomin Search Group they are the bloomin Search Group they are the bloomin Search Group they are the leading search firm for churches and leading search firm for churches and leading search firm for churches and faith-based organizations van der faith-based organizations van der faith-based organizations van der bloomin prayerfully comes alongside your bloomin prayerfully comes alongside your bloomin prayerfully comes alongside your team to guide you through the search team to guide you through the search team to guide you through the search process and bring you great candidates process and bring you great candidates process and bring you great candidates that fit your church's unique needs that fit your church's unique needs that fit your church's unique needs visit Vander blue mancom for more visit Vander blue mancom for more visit Vander blue mancom for more information that's van der BL o e em e n information that's van der BL o e em e n information that's van der BL o e em e n comm welcome to the unsummon airy comm welcome to the unsummon airy comm welcome to the unsummon airy podcast are you looking for practical podcast are you looking for practical podcast are you looking for practical ministry help to drive their ministry ministry help to drive their ministry ministry help to drive their ministry further faster have a sinking feeling further faster have a sinking feeling further faster have a sinking feeling that your ministry training didn't that your ministry training didn't that your ministry training didn't prepare you for the real world hey prepare you for the real world hey prepare you for the real world hey you're not alone join thousands of you're not alone join thousands of you're not alone join thousands of others have pursued a stuff that we wish others have pursued a stuff that we wish others have pursued a stuff that we wish they had taught in seminary buckle up they had taught in seminary buckle up they had taught in seminary buckle up and let's get started with this week's and let's get started with this week's and let's get started with this week's on seminary podcast everybody welcome to on seminary podcast everybody welcome to on seminary podcast everybody welcome to the on seminary podcast happy Thursday the on seminary podcast happy Thursday the on seminary podcast happy Thursday we hope things are great with you this we hope things are great with you this we hope things are great with you this week at your church we know that you've week at your church we know that you've week at your church we know that you've got a lot going on we're honored that got a lot going on we're honored that got a lot going on we're honored that you would take some time out there's you would take some time out there's you would take some time out there's lots of things you could be doing today lots of things you could be doing today lots of things you could be doing today we're just privileged that you would put we're just privileged that you would put we're just privileged that you would put us in your ear and listen in today's us in your ear and listen in today's us in your ear and listen in today's conversation super excited to have Mike conversation super excited to have Mike conversation super excited to have Mike Bonham with us he's an author speaker Bonham with us he's an author speaker Bonham with us he's an author speaker church leader you know it has wrote a church leader you know it has wrote a church leader you know it has wrote a book that you've probably heard of book that you've probably heard of book that you've probably heard of before if you haven't we're gonna dig before if you haven't we're gonna dig before if you haven't we're gonna dig into a little bit today called leading into a little bit today called leading into a little bit today called leading from the second chair he served it as an from the second chair he served it as an from the second chair he served it as an executive pastor which I always love executive pastor which I always love executive pastor which I always love love interacting with executive pastors love interacting with executive pastors love interacting with executive pastors Mike welcome to the show thanks a lot Mike welcome to the show thanks a lot Mike welcome to the show thanks a lot rich it's great to be here and be a part rich it's great to be here and be a part rich it's great to be here and be a part of it I'm so glad that you've you know of it I'm so glad that you've you know of it I'm so glad that you've you know taking some time you actually for a taking some time you actually for a taking some time you actually for a while you were a manager at McKinsey and

while you were a manager at McKinsey and while you were a manager at McKinsey and company as well we were just talking company as well we were just talking company as well we were just talking about this before we started I'm not about this before we started I'm not about this before we started I'm not that's a rare bird I don't think I've that's a rare bird I don't think I've that's a rare bird I don't think I've ran into any other church leaders that ran into any other church leaders that ran into any other church leaders that worked for the management consulting worked for the management consulting worked for the management consulting firm McKinsey firm McKinsey firm McKinsey um there probably are some somewhere I'm um there probably are some somewhere I'm um there probably are some somewhere I'm not sure that I've run actually one guy not sure that I've run actually one guy not sure that I've run actually one guy that if I do know well that worked for that if I do know well that worked for that if I do know well that worked for McKinsey is Greg Hawkins who is McKinsey is Greg Hawkins who is McKinsey is Greg Hawkins who is executive pastor orlick rate for a executive pastor orlick rate for a executive pastor orlick rate for a number of years yes right that's and number of years yes right that's and number of years yes right that's and that was so that gives you a sense you that was so that gives you a sense you that was so that gives you a sense you know not a lot know not a lot know not a lot Greg's a great guy this is fantastic why Greg's a great guy this is fantastic why Greg's a great guy this is fantastic why don't you give us kind of a bit of the don't you give us kind of a bit of the don't you give us kind of a bit of the mic bottom story kind of compress it mic bottom story kind of compress it mic bottom story kind of compress it down give us a sense of your background down give us a sense of your background down give us a sense of your background sure well like you said Mackenzie so I sure well like you said Mackenzie so I sure well like you said Mackenzie so I actually started off career as an actually started off career as an actually started off career as an engineer and then went back to school engineer and then went back to school engineer and then went back to school and got an MBA and on the McKinsey and and got an MBA and on the McKinsey and and got an MBA and on the McKinsey and then that's really where I learned then that's really where I learned then that's really where I learned about consulting and found out that about consulting and found out that about consulting and found out that through a series of I think god-ordained through a series of I think god-ordained through a series of I think god-ordained events that a lot of what I had learned events that a lot of what I had learned events that a lot of what I had learned about consulting was applicable in a about consulting was applicable in a about consulting was applicable in a church environment so I started doing church environment so I started doing church environment so I started doing over twenty years ago some consulting over twenty years ago some consulting over twenty years ago some consulting organizational and strategy stuff with organizational and strategy stuff with organizational and strategy stuff with churches and got opened doors made right churches and got opened doors made right churches and got opened doors made right and then ultimately open the door for me and then ultimately open the door for me and then ultimately open the door for me to go into this executive pastor role at to go into this executive pastor role at to go into this executive pastor role at at the church that we remembers up at at the church that we remembers up at at the church that we remembers up at the time and so I served there for for the time and so I served there for for the time and so I served there for for eleven years some kind of the last eleven years some kind of the last eleven years some kind of the last chapter in that story at least from a chapter in that story at least from a chapter in that story at least from a career standpoint was stepping out of career standpoint was stepping out of career standpoint was stepping out of that role about almost five years ago to that role about almost five years ago to that role about almost five years ago to do the consulting and coaching work that do the consulting and coaching work that do the consulting and coaching work that I have been doing sort of part-time to I have been doing sort of part-time to I have been doing sort of part-time to do that full time very cool very cool do that full time very cool very cool do that full time very cool very cool well leading from the second chair you well leading from the second chair you well leading from the second chair you know the a lot of folks that are know the a lot of folks that are know the a lot of folks that are listening in are in that role their listening in are in that role their listening in are in that role their their their executive pastors or you

their their executive pastors or you their their executive pastors or you know some role that is like that and know some role that is like that and know some role that is like that and that's that's a unique challenge what if that's that's a unique challenge what if that's that's a unique challenge what if when some of those you know as you kind when some of those you know as you kind when some of those you know as you kind of dealt with a lot of executive pastors of dealt with a lot of executive pastors of dealt with a lot of executive pastors around what would you say some of those around what would you say some of those around what would you say some of those common tensions are coming you know common tensions are coming you know common tensions are coming you know problems that that come about when you problems that that come about when you problems that that come about when you won't want to really leave from that won't want to really leave from that won't want to really leave from that second chair yeah you know rich when second chair yeah you know rich when second chair yeah you know rich when when Roger Patterson I wrote this book when Roger Patterson I wrote this book when Roger Patterson I wrote this book on that subject we framed it around on that subject we framed it around on that subject we framed it around three things that we think are seem to three things that we think are seem to three things that we think are seem to be paradoxes for people in those second be paradoxes for people in those second be paradoxes for people in those second chair rolls and and I think in it's been chair rolls and and I think in it's been chair rolls and and I think in it's been ten years since the book came out I ten years since the book came out I ten years since the book came out I still hear people talking about the still hear people talking about the still hear people talking about the exact same tensions today the first one exact same tensions today the first one exact same tensions today the first one we call subordinate later you know that we call subordinate later you know that we call subordinate later you know that you're not in the first chair role you you're not in the first chair role you you're not in the first chair role you know you're not the senior pastor and so know you're not the senior pastor and so know you're not the senior pastor and so you know you're a subordinate and nobody you know you're a subordinate and nobody you know you're a subordinate and nobody likes that word or but few people like likes that word or but few people like likes that word or but few people like that word but you know I mean we know that word but you know I mean we know that word but you know I mean we know we're not in the first chair right and we're not in the first chair right and we're not in the first chair right and yet we're called to leave we're called yet we're called to leave we're called yet we're called to leave we're called to use our gifts and and part of our to use our gifts and and part of our to use our gifts and and part of our gift is leadership so what does it look gift is leadership so what does it look gift is leadership so what does it look like to two-leg well but also be a loyal like to two-leg well but also be a loyal like to two-leg well but also be a loyal subordinate the second ditch that we subordinate the second ditch that we subordinate the second ditch that we talked about is we call deep and wide talked about is we call deep and wide talked about is we call deep and wide it's a most second chair folks that I it's a most second chair folks that I it's a most second chair folks that I know are expected to really get down know are expected to really get down know are expected to really get down into the details in at least some areas into the details in at least some areas into the details in at least some areas in the church and if the church is huge in the church and if the church is huge in the church and if the church is huge they may not you know they may still they may not you know they may still they may not you know they may still have a lot of staff people who do much have a lot of staff people who do much have a lot of staff people who do much of the detail work but but you don't of the detail work but but you don't of the detail work but but you don't into some of those details that's deep into some of those details that's deep into some of those details that's deep and yet to lead well in the second chair and yet to lead well in the second chair and yet to lead well in the second chair you have to see the big picture you have you have to see the big picture you have you have to see the big picture you have to get up at the visionary level with to get up at the visionary level with to get up at the visionary level with your senior pastor and think and think

your senior pastor and think and think your senior pastor and think and think wide and so that's it that's just wide and so that's it that's just wide and so that's it that's just attention the third one we call attention the third one we call attention the third one we call contentment of dreaming how can I be contentment of dreaming how can I be contentment of dreaming how can I be content with where God has placed me content with where God has placed me content with where God has placed me today even if that's not exactly where I today even if that's not exactly where I today even if that's not exactly where I think that I want to be long-term and think that I want to be long-term and think that I want to be long-term and yet not give up on dreams about the yet not give up on dreams about the yet not give up on dreams about the future you know I tell folks all the future you know I tell folks all the future you know I tell folks all the time time time don't don't buy into the myth that the don't don't buy into the myth that the don't don't buy into the myth that the senior pastor is the only one who's senior pastor is the only one who's senior pastor is the only one who's allowed to dream because I think that is allowed to dream because I think that is allowed to dream because I think that is a myth I think we we are supposed to a myth I think we we are supposed to a myth I think we we are supposed to dream together about where God is dream together about where God is dream together about where God is leading our church and dream and like leading our church and dream and like leading our church and dream and like God influenced our dreams about where God influenced our dreams about where God influenced our dreams about where he's leading us personally very cool why he's leading us personally very cool why he's leading us personally very cool why don't we dig into each one of those don't we dig into each one of those don't we dig into each one of those things that'd be a great yeah it's a things that'd be a great yeah it's a things that'd be a great yeah it's a great framework there subordinate leader great framework there subordinate leader great framework there subordinate leader I totally understand that you know the I totally understand that you know the I totally understand that you know the tension that's there you know there's a tension that's there you know there's a tension that's there you know there's a leader that's listening in today leader that's listening in today leader that's listening in today maybe stressing wrestling with that a maybe stressing wrestling with that a maybe stressing wrestling with that a little bit you know feeling that tension little bit you know feeling that tension little bit you know feeling that tension of like gosh I'm I'm just not sure you of like gosh I'm I'm just not sure you of like gosh I'm I'm just not sure you know am I just supposed to say yes to know am I just supposed to say yes to know am I just supposed to say yes to everything that my senior guy says or everything that my senior guy says or everything that my senior guy says or you know the person I'm following help you know the person I'm following help you know the person I'm following help us flush that a little bit and I'll us flush that a little bit and I'll us flush that a little bit and I'll flesh it out with a chapter right from flesh it out with a chapter right from flesh it out with a chapter right from from my story when I was first stepping from my story when I was first stepping from my story when I was first stepping into this role I had been in business as into this role I had been in business as into this role I had been in business as I said for a number of years had had I said for a number of years had had I said for a number of years had had come to the church had gone into the come to the church had gone into the come to the church had gone into the role of the church really on sort of role of the church really on sort of role of the church really on sort of this part-time interim basis I was in a this part-time interim basis I was in a this part-time interim basis I was in a season where I was trying to figure out season where I was trying to figure out season where I was trying to figure out what's next in my life right and just what's next in my life right and just what's next in my life right and just gonna help out with a few things for a gonna help out with a few things for a gonna help out with a few things for a little about what few things right and little about what few things right and little about what few things right and so after about nine months I've really so after about nine months I've really so after about nine months I've really sense that God might be leading me to to sense that God might be leading me to to sense that God might be leading me to to stay in that role of course that's stay in that role of course that's stay in that role of course that's churches and the senior pastors prager

churches and the senior pastors prager churches and the senior pastors prager to say yes or no yes so I sat down with to say yes or no yes so I sat down with to say yes or no yes so I sat down with with Barry Landrum who is our senior with Barry Landrum who is our senior with Barry Landrum who is our senior pastor at the time and we started pastor at the time and we started pastor at the time and we started talking about it and and I said here's talking about it and and I said here's talking about it and and I said here's one thing that I know about me and I one thing that I know about me and I one thing that I know about me and I won't be successful mister all I won't won't be successful mister all I won't won't be successful mister all I won't be I won't be able to thrive in this be I won't be able to thrive in this be I won't be able to thrive in this role if we can't if we can't agree on role if we can't if we can't agree on role if we can't if we can't agree on this is it going to be okay for me to this is it going to be okay for me to this is it going to be okay for me to push back on you is it gonna be okay for push back on you is it gonna be okay for push back on you is it gonna be okay for me to disagree and challenge at times me to disagree and challenge at times me to disagree and challenge at times and what he said was really helpful to and what he said was really helpful to and what he said was really helpful to me he said Mike not only said okay I me he said Mike not only said okay I me he said Mike not only said okay I need that I need someone but but it's need that I need someone but but it's need that I need someone but but it's the conversation of both of what we the conversation of both of what we the conversation of both of what we talked about was talked about was talked about was you did that in a way that's respectful you did that in a way that's respectful you did that in a way that's respectful right how do you do that in a way that right how do you do that in a way that right how do you do that in a way that that still honors his leadership and so that still honors his leadership and so that still honors his leadership and so I felt enormous freedom with Barry to I felt enormous freedom with Barry to I felt enormous freedom with Barry to challenge in to disagree mostly behind challenge in to disagree mostly behind challenge in to disagree mostly behind closed doors you know most of what we closed doors you know most of what we closed doors you know most of what we worked out was was in private or in very worked out was was in private or in very worked out was was in private or in very small meetings because that's a way I small meetings because that's a way I small meetings because that's a way I could do it respectfully and once we could do it respectfully and once we could do it respectfully and once we walked out with those you know to the walked out with those you know to the walked out with those you know to the larger audience I was gonna get behind larger audience I was gonna get behind larger audience I was gonna get behind it yeah that's that's critical I think it yeah that's that's critical I think it yeah that's that's critical I think you know as someone who's led in that you know as someone who's led in that you know as someone who's led in that second chair leads in that second chair second chair leads in that second chair second chair leads in that second chair I think it's super important to listen I think it's super important to listen I think it's super important to listen in on this that a part of our job is to in on this that a part of our job is to in on this that a part of our job is to be publicly loyal to our you know to our be publicly loyal to our you know to our be publicly loyal to our you know to our lead pastors to our you know senior lead pastors to our you know senior lead pastors to our you know senior pastors to ensure that they see that pastors to ensure that they see that pastors to ensure that they see that we're going to take bullets for if we're we're going to take bullets for if we're we're going to take bullets for if we're gonna you know helps with that then that gonna you know helps with that then that gonna you know helps with that then that ultimately when you're publicly loyal ultimately when you're publicly loyal ultimately when you're publicly loyal that does create an environment when that does create an environment when that does create an environment when you're behind the closed door to say you you're behind the closed door to say you you're behind the closed door to say you know I just don't understand why we're know I just don't understand why we're know I just don't understand why we're going in this direction or help me think going in this direction or help me think going in this direction or help me think this through more or I you know I think this through more or I you know I think this through more or I you know I think we need to go this way you know to

we need to go this way you know to we need to go this way you know to actually help you lead you know in in actually help you lead you know in in actually help you lead you know in in your organization yeah your organization yeah your organization yeah yeah now I'm getting one things we've yeah now I'm getting one things we've yeah now I'm getting one things we've talked a lot about in the book and then talked a lot about in the book and then talked a lot about in the book and then coaching that I do is if you're not coaching that I do is if you're not coaching that I do is if you're not right in your relationship with your right in your relationship with your right in your relationship with your senior pastor it doesn't matter how senior pastor it doesn't matter how senior pastor it doesn't matter how right you are on an issue so sure yeah right you are on an issue so sure yeah right you are on an issue so sure yeah you gotta get that relationship right you gotta get that relationship right you gotta get that relationship right first and and if they are if you're first and and if they are if you're first and and if they are if you're saying is doing something that is saying is doing something that is saying is doing something that is disloyal that is in perceived as disloyal that is in perceived as disloyal that is in perceived as undermining them you're wrong on the undermining them you're wrong on the undermining them you're wrong on the relationship and then you you quickly relationship and then you you quickly relationship and then you you quickly lose the ability to lead well in that lose the ability to lead well in that lose the ability to lead well in that second chair position yeah it seems like second chair position yeah it seems like second chair position yeah it seems like I would think of these three this this I would think of these three this this I would think of these three this this ish initial issue of subordinate leader ish initial issue of subordinate leader ish initial issue of subordinate leader is really where the tinder is for these is really where the tinder is for these is really where the tinder is for these relationships to blow up right they if relationships to blow up right they if relationships to blow up right they if that's you know things are gonna go that's you know things are gonna go that's you know things are gonna go sideways it's gonna be around this sideways it's gonna be around this sideways it's gonna be around this particular issue and unfortunately you particular issue and unfortunately you particular issue and unfortunately you know I've seen that where you know kind know I've seen that where you know kind know I've seen that where you know kind of you know the executive senior the of you know the executive senior the of you know the executive senior the executive pastor senior pastor lead executive pastor senior pastor lead executive pastor senior pastor lead pastor or do we call them those pastor or do we call them those pastor or do we call them those relationships really can can come apart relationships really can can come apart relationships really can can come apart and they really are around these issues and they really are around these issues and they really are around these issues absolutely yeah that's exactly right on absolutely yeah that's exactly right on absolutely yeah that's exactly right on the deep and wide issue you know I help the deep and wide issue you know I help the deep and wide issue you know I help us wrestle through that so you know the us wrestle through that so you know the us wrestle through that so you know the idea that you know there are a few areas idea that you know there are a few areas idea that you know there are a few areas that we're probably going to have to that we're probably going to have to that we're probably going to have to drive deep in what are those areas that drive deep in what are those areas that drive deep in what are those areas that you're seeing are pretty common among you're seeing are pretty common among you're seeing are pretty common among executive pastors to drive deep in into executive pastors to drive deep in into executive pastors to drive deep in into you know I'm convinced I'm going to you know I'm convinced I'm going to you know I'm convinced I'm going to boid the question is because it's an boid the question is because it's an boid the question is because it's an election year you can do that yeah election year you can do that yeah election year you can do that yeah that's right you know I'm convinced that that's right you know I'm convinced that that's right you know I'm convinced that there's more differences in executive there's more differences in executive there's more differences in executive pastor or second chair of job pastor or second chair of job pastor or second chair of job descriptions and almost any other job descriptions and almost any other job descriptions and almost any other job description of the church and so to say

description of the church and so to say description of the church and so to say there's a common issue where everybody there's a common issue where everybody there's a common issue where everybody has to be people you know I wouldn't be has to be people you know I wouldn't be has to be people you know I wouldn't be true to what I really believe I mean true to what I really believe I mean true to what I really believe I mean they really are all over the map they really are all over the map they really are all over the map having said that you know staff kind of having said that you know staff kind of having said that you know staff kind of personnel issues most executive masters personnel issues most executive masters personnel issues most executive masters have a pretty broad portfolio related to have a pretty broad portfolio related to have a pretty broad portfolio related to staff and so knowing what's working staff and so knowing what's working staff and so knowing what's working what's not working you know you don't what's not working you know you don't what's not working you know you don't have to be an HR expert but you better have to be an HR expert but you better have to be an HR expert but you better have good systems and and if you're not have good systems and and if you're not have good systems and and if you're not directly making it happen overseeing to directly making it happen overseeing to directly making it happen overseeing to make sure that it's working well make sure that it's working well make sure that it's working well especially in a large church environment especially in a large church environment especially in a large church environment some executive passengers I know need to some executive passengers I know need to some executive passengers I know need to be really deep on the financial side of be really deep on the financial side of be really deep on the financial side of things things things some don't touch the finances but it but some don't touch the finances but it but some don't touch the finances but it but if the if the financial side the if the if the financial side the if the if the financial side the business side of the church is part of business side of the church is part of business side of the church is part of your scope of responsibilities knowing your scope of responsibilities knowing your scope of responsibilities knowing that and knowing that really well is that and knowing that really well is that and knowing that really well is another area where you have to be big another area where you have to be big another area where you have to be big you can't you can't just say oh you know you can't you can't just say oh you know you can't you can't just say oh you know I'm on the budget I you know we're kind I'm on the budget I you know we're kind I'm on the budget I you know we're kind of within 10 or 20 percent of being of within 10 or 20 percent of being of within 10 or 20 percent of being right okay like you know you could only right okay like you know you could only right okay like you know you could only do that for one cycle and then you're do that for one cycle and then you're do that for one cycle and then you're done absolutely you know the there's an done absolutely you know the there's an done absolutely you know the there's an interesting tension here love Lou to interesting tension here love Lou to interesting tension here love Lou to help me understand this a lot of times help me understand this a lot of times help me understand this a lot of times you know organizations to grow churches you know organizations to grow churches you know organizations to grow churches to grow have to be about replicating to grow have to be about replicating to grow have to be about replicating leaders right you have to be finding leaders right you have to be finding leaders right you have to be finding ways to you know replicate at every ways to you know replicate at every ways to you know replicate at every level you know staff volunteers leaders level you know staff volunteers leaders level you know staff volunteers leaders there there can be a tendency as you there there can be a tendency as you there there can be a tendency as you climb up or climb down whichever then climb up or climb down whichever then climb up or climb down whichever then you know and call that you know ladder you know and call that you know ladder you know and call that you know ladder that there actually becomes less and

that there actually becomes less and that there actually becomes less and less replication so the kind of ultimate less replication so the kind of ultimate less replication so the kind of ultimate example is a lot of times the lead example is a lot of times the lead example is a lot of times the lead person in the church they're the teacher person in the church they're the teacher person in the church they're the teacher you know they're teaching 30 times a you know they're teaching 30 times a you know they're teaching 30 times a year 40 times a year and they're not year 40 times a year and they're not year 40 times a year and they're not really doing anything to replicate other really doing anything to replicate other really doing anything to replicate other teachers around them how are you know teachers around them how are you know teachers around them how are you know how should we be thinking about how should we be thinking about how should we be thinking about replicating even at this level as an replicating even at this level as an replicating even at this level as an executive pastor when a lot of the executive pastor when a lot of the executive pastor when a lot of the things we do frankly you know we don't things we do frankly you know we don't things we do frankly you know we don't want to necessarily just hand off to want to necessarily just hand off to want to necessarily just hand off to someone else it's not like you know say someone else it's not like you know say someone else it's not like you know say I'm I'm I'm small group leader or even you know I'm small group leader or even you know I'm small group leader or even you know I'm in student ministry or some other area in student ministry or some other area in student ministry or some other area how should we be thinking about that I how should we be thinking about that I how should we be thinking about that I think a couple of things rich one is you think a couple of things rich one is you think a couple of things rich one is you know I've seen churches that have gone know I've seen churches that have gone know I've seen churches that have gone from a two-person executive team senior from a two-person executive team senior from a two-person executive team senior pastor executive pastor your relief pastor executive pastor your relief pastor executive pastor your relief pastor executive pastor to adding pastor executive pastor to adding pastor executive pastor to adding another person into the team that's not another person into the team that's not another person into the team that's not exactly replication I mean that's really exactly replication I mean that's really exactly replication I mean that's really dividing the executive pastor job into dividing the executive pastor job into dividing the executive pastor job into two different parts where one person two different parts where one person two different parts where one person might focus more on ministry and one might focus more on ministry and one might focus more on ministry and one more on the business side but that is more on the business side but that is more on the business side but that is bringing somebody else in to allow that bringing somebody else in to allow that bringing somebody else in to allow that which gives the church then the room the which gives the church then the room the which gives the church then the room the capacity to continue to grow yep the capacity to continue to grow yep the capacity to continue to grow yep the other is you can always be looking for other is you can always be looking for other is you can always be looking for those high potential leaders and just those high potential leaders and just those high potential leaders and just bringing them you know give them a bringing them you know give them a bringing them you know give them a delegated task to them you know say look delegated task to them you know say look delegated task to them you know say look I you know I know you're not the HR I you know I know you're not the HR I you know I know you're not the HR expert but I'd really like you to help expert but I'd really like you to help expert but I'd really like you to help take a hard look at our and our take a hard look at our and our take a hard look at our and our evaluation system yes and in doing so evaluation system yes and in doing so evaluation system yes and in doing so you're gonna you're gonna empower you're gonna you're gonna empower you're gonna you're gonna empower somebody as well as increase your somebody as well as increase your somebody as well as increase your capacities in executive master there capacities in executive master there capacities in executive master there seems to be a lot of executive pastors seems to be a lot of executive pastors seems to be a lot of executive pastors have the you know the other duties as

have the you know the other duties as have the you know the other duties as assigned assigned assigned oh yeah Nagori right there always seems oh yeah Nagori right there always seems oh yeah Nagori right there always seems to be or that a lot of times I'll hear to be or that a lot of times I'll hear to be or that a lot of times I'll hear executive pastor describe is like executive pastor describe is like executive pastor describe is like they'll rattle off their core function they'll rattle off their core function they'll rattle off their core function and then they'll be like well and then and then they'll be like well and then and then they'll be like well and then when anything comes up it's like when anything comes up it's like when anything comes up it's like different like a project that ends up different like a project that ends up different like a project that ends up being my responsibility and that's a being my responsibility and that's a being my responsibility and that's a great area for you know to pull people great area for you know to pull people great area for you know to pull people in like hey if you're you know if you're in like hey if you're you know if you're in like hey if you're you know if you're going into something new at the church going into something new at the church going into something new at the church hey don't do it alone bring somebody hey don't do it alone bring somebody hey don't do it alone bring somebody else in who can help plug away that else in who can help plug away that else in who can help plug away that could be a volunteer or maybe you know could be a volunteer or maybe you know could be a volunteer or maybe you know another staff member here you've got another staff member here you've got another staff member here you've got somebody you know in your student somebody you know in your student somebody you know in your student ministry who seems to be a great ministry who seems to be a great ministry who seems to be a great upcoming up-and-coming leader why not upcoming up-and-coming leader why not upcoming up-and-coming leader why not bring them involved for six months a bring them involved for six months a bring them involved for six months a heck I only shift around what you're heck I only shift around what you're heck I only shift around what you're doing so you can get plugged in on this doing so you can get plugged in on this doing so you can get plugged in on this special project you know that we're special project you know that we're special project you know that we're pushing away on yeah well that's that's pushing away on yeah well that's that's pushing away on yeah well that's that's great finally one of the things we great finally one of the things we great finally one of the things we talked about in that deep and wide it's talked about in that deep and wide it's talked about in that deep and wide it's the executive pastors are often gap the executive pastors are often gap the executive pastors are often gap fillers and that's one of the phrases we fillers and that's one of the phrases we fillers and that's one of the phrases we use right for that for that you know all use right for that for that you know all use right for that for that you know all other duties may be assigned yeah you other duties may be assigned yeah you other duties may be assigned yeah you know the the the reality about gap know the the the reality about gap know the the the reality about gap filling is there's always lots of gaps filling is there's always lots of gaps filling is there's always lots of gaps yes in any church lots of things that yes in any church lots of things that yes in any church lots of things that need to be done but that doesn't mean need to be done but that doesn't mean need to be done but that doesn't mean that the executive pastor has to do all that the executive pastor has to do all that the executive pastor has to do all of them by him or herself right inside of them by him or herself right inside of them by him or herself right inside tell folks all the time yeah fill the tell folks all the time yeah fill the tell folks all the time yeah fill the gaps but sometimes you fill it with gaps but sometimes you fill it with gaps but sometimes you fill it with other people sometimes you feel other people sometimes you feel other people sometimes you feel not today but tomorrow focus Samba not today but tomorrow focus Samba not today but tomorrow focus Samba thinks it need to be done right now and thinks it need to be done right now and thinks it need to be done right now and only you can do and they figure out ways only you can do and they figure out ways only you can do and they figure out ways to hand off some of the rest for them to hand off some of the rest for them to hand off some of the rest for them absolutely um the you know contentment absolutely um the you know contentment absolutely um the you know contentment dreaming kind of paradox there that I dreaming kind of paradox there that I dreaming kind of paradox there that I think is the most I would say pastoral think is the most I would say pastoral think is the most I would say pastoral part of what I you know you're insane part of what I you know you're insane part of what I you know you're insane most pastoral it's a pastoral word that

most pastoral it's a pastoral word that most pastoral it's a pastoral word that as we're wrestling with our you know our as we're wrestling with our you know our as we're wrestling with our you know our internal issues around hey you know what internal issues around hey you know what internal issues around hey you know what am i content where I'm at here are we am i content where I'm at here are we am i content where I'm at here are we content with where we're going today content with where we're going today content with where we're going today with what's happening versus where's God with what's happening versus where's God with what's happening versus where's God calling us how does that work out what calling us how does that work out what calling us how does that work out what are some of the ways that you know are some of the ways that you know are some of the ways that you know executive pastors are working out this executive pastors are working out this executive pastors are working out this last paradox you know what I think that last paradox you know what I think that last paradox you know what I think that with we spend a lot of time and and I with we spend a lot of time and and I with we spend a lot of time and and I can being you spend a lot of time on can being you spend a lot of time on can being you spend a lot of time on that whole issue what does it look like that whole issue what does it look like that whole issue what does it look like to be content with where I am right now to be content with where I am right now to be content with where I am right now it a danger of contentment is I slip off it a danger of contentment is I slip off it a danger of contentment is I slip off into complacency yeah into complacency yeah into complacency yeah and that's not good that's not what you and that's not good that's not what you and that's not good that's not what you want that's not what God wants for your want that's not what God wants for your want that's not what God wants for your church or for your role or to and you church or for your role or to and you church or for your role or to and you know the other dangers that you become know the other dangers that you become know the other dangers that you become just discontent I mean you know then just discontent I mean you know then just discontent I mean you know then you're running into all sorts of you're running into all sorts of you're running into all sorts of friction to me one of the keys of friction to me one of the keys of friction to me one of the keys of contentment is trying to take a bigger contentment is trying to take a bigger contentment is trying to take a bigger picture look and say what you know God picture look and say what you know God picture look and say what you know God doesn't operate on my timeline right doesn't operate on my timeline right doesn't operate on my timeline right right and so god may be at work and right and so god may be at work and right and so god may be at work and wasted I can't see right now are on a wasted I can't see right now are on a wasted I can't see right now are on a timeline that I don't understand that timeline that I don't understand that timeline that I don't understand that it's a lot you know different than mine it's a lot you know different than mine it's a lot you know different than mine and just being willing to come get up at and just being willing to come get up at and just being willing to come get up at least pretty for today and say I'm gonna least pretty for today and say I'm gonna least pretty for today and say I'm gonna pray and trust God's in this for me I pray and trust God's in this for me I pray and trust God's in this for me I the definition we use on contentment is the definition we use on contentment is the definition we use on contentment is that it's a choice you will have to make that it's a choice you will have to make that it's a choice you will have to make a choice to be contemned right I mean a choice to be contemned right I mean a choice to be contemned right I mean look at the glass as half-full not as look at the glass as half-full not as look at the glass as half-full not as half-empty it's a choice to stay and to half-empty it's a choice to stay and to half-empty it's a choice to stay and to grow into excel for a seat for a season grow into excel for a seat for a season grow into excel for a seat for a season yeah I mean I'm gonna stay here and I'm yeah I mean I'm gonna stay here and I'm yeah I mean I'm gonna stay here and I'm gonna do my very best then I'm gonna gonna do my very best then I'm gonna gonna do my very best then I'm gonna trust it even if there's some things I trust it even if there's some things I trust it even if there's some things I don't like they've got really he's gonna don't like they've got really he's gonna don't like they've got really he's gonna teach me and I'm gonna be able to grow

teach me and I'm gonna be able to grow teach me and I'm gonna be able to grow in that at least for this season mm-hmm in that at least for this season mm-hmm in that at least for this season mm-hmm and and then you know and then God may and and then you know and then God may and and then you know and then God may move me out beyond that very cool well move me out beyond that very cool well move me out beyond that very cool well you know the book came out I can't you know the book came out I can't you know the book came out I can't believe it was ten years ago but it came believe it was ten years ago but it came believe it was ten years ago but it came out 10 years ago hugely influential book out 10 years ago hugely influential book out 10 years ago hugely influential book you know what's good at what has evolved you know what's good at what has evolved you know what's good at what has evolved in your thinking kind of where and are in your thinking kind of where and are in your thinking kind of where and are you you know pulling that together in you you know pulling that together in you you know pulling that together in any way you know what is what is it kind any way you know what is what is it kind any way you know what is what is it kind of you know gone you know of you know gone you know of you know gone you know in over the last 10 years you've kind of in over the last 10 years you've kind of in over the last 10 years you've kind of thought through these issues yeah well thought through these issues yeah well thought through these issues yeah well as you can imagine I've had lots of as you can imagine I've had lots of as you can imagine I've had lots of conversations with second chair folks conversations with second chair folks conversations with second chair folks and and others over those ten years and and and others over those ten years and and and others over those ten years and so I've just finished the manuscript for so I've just finished the manuscript for so I've just finished the manuscript for a new book drive yeah called thriving in a new book drive yeah called thriving in a new book drive yeah called thriving in the second chair and it's really it's the second chair and it's really it's the second chair and it's really it's ten years worth of conversations it's ten years worth of conversations it's ten years worth of conversations it's everything that I've learned that I wish everything that I've learned that I wish everything that I've learned that I wish I had said in the first book or that I'd I had said in the first book or that I'd I had said in the first book or that I'd like to say now just in really the like to say now just in really the like to say now just in really the central idea is it's great to lead but central idea is it's great to lead but central idea is it's great to lead but too many second chairs that I run into I too many second chairs that I run into I too many second chairs that I run into I would say are surviving but they're not would say are surviving but they're not would say are surviving but they're not really thriving and in one of the really thriving and in one of the really thriving and in one of the practices that you need to have in place practices that you need to have in place practices that you need to have in place if you're going to serve if you're going if you're going to serve if you're going if you're going to serve if you're going to really thrive in the second chair to really thrive in the second chair to really thrive in the second chair very cool so you're hoping that'll you very cool so you're hoping that'll you very cool so you're hoping that'll you know any timeline on that that book know any timeline on that that book know any timeline on that that book coming out September 2016 that's amazing coming out September 2016 that's amazing coming out September 2016 that's amazing that's great just few months away that's great just few months away that's great just few months away great well so everybody if you haven't great well so everybody if you haven't great well so everybody if you haven't read the first book you're gonna want to read the first book you're gonna want to read the first book you're gonna want to get you know get that pick that up get you know get that pick that up get you know get that pick that up leading from the second chair so then leading from the second chair so then leading from the second chair so then you can jump into you know thriving in you can jump into you know thriving in you can jump into you know thriving in the second chair you know when that the second chair you know when that the second chair you know when that comes out you know later this year Mike comes out you know later this year Mike comes out you know later this year Mike anything else you'd like to share before anything else you'd like to share before anything else you'd like to share before we pivot on to the rest of our episode I we pivot on to the rest of our episode I we pivot on to the rest of our episode I just you know yeah and I want to take just you know yeah and I want to take just you know yeah and I want to take one page out of the thriving book and

one page out of the thriving book and one page out of the thriving book and all and offer this for your audience one all and offer this for your audience one all and offer this for your audience one of the things that we that I become of the things that we that I become of the things that we that I become deeply convinced of is that second chair deeply convinced of is that second chair deeply convinced of is that second chair leaders tend to be very isolated you leaders tend to be very isolated you leaders tend to be very isolated you know they just tend to be alone they're know they just tend to be alone they're know they just tend to be alone they're surrounded by people all the time and surrounded by people all the time and surrounded by people all the time and yet they don't have anybody to really yet they don't have anybody to really yet they don't have anybody to really talk to about the the challenges and the talk to about the the challenges and the talk to about the the challenges and the difficulties the struggles they're difficulties the struggles they're difficulties the struggles they're having in the second chair you you know having in the second chair you you know having in the second chair you you know sometimes the struggles are with the sometimes the struggles are with the sometimes the struggles are with the senior pastor you try to talk with him senior pastor you try to talk with him senior pastor you try to talk with him and and yeah well we're still having to and and yeah well we're still having to and and yeah well we're still having to work through that who else do I talk to work through that who else do I talk to work through that who else do I talk to well if I talk to the people who work well if I talk to the people who work well if I talk to the people who work for me that's not appropriate but if I for me that's not appropriate but if I for me that's not appropriate but if I go and try to talk to the key person to go and try to talk to the key person to go and try to talk to the key person to the church they're often going to want the church they're often going to want the church they're often going to want to fix the problem for me and that's not to fix the problem for me and that's not to fix the problem for me and that's not really what I need I need it's just really what I need I need it's just really what I need I need it's just somebody helped me process stuff through somebody helped me process stuff through somebody helped me process stuff through with and usually that's outside and yet with and usually that's outside and yet with and usually that's outside and yet we're so busy with our jobs we don't we're so busy with our jobs we don't we're so busy with our jobs we don't have those people on the outside that we have those people on the outside that we have those people on the outside that we can that we can work through and so the can that we can work through and so the can that we can work through and so the I think the thing I would say like I I think the thing I would say like I I think the thing I would say like I said this is one of the chapters in said this is one of the chapters in said this is one of the chapters in their book is is you've got to find some their book is is you've got to find some their book is is you've got to find some friends you've gotta find those up those friends you've gotta find those up those friends you've gotta find those up those helpful safe outlets ideally people helpful safe outlets ideally people helpful safe outlets ideally people actually understand something about the actually understand something about the actually understand something about the unique challenges of being the second unique challenges of being the second unique challenges of being the second chair and and and develop those deep chair and and and develop those deep chair and and and develop those deep relationships with them so that when you relationships with them so that when you relationships with them so that when you are hitting those hard times because we are hitting those hard times because we are hitting those hard times because we all hit those hard times yet you have a all hit those hard times yet you have a all hit those hard times yet you have a good place to work through that way this good place to work through that way this good place to work through that way this is the uncie Maneri podcast stuff you is the uncie Maneri podcast stuff you is the uncie Maneri podcast stuff you wish they taught in seminary well we're wish they taught in seminary well we're wish they taught in seminary well we're gonna jump into the lightning round that gonna jump into the lightning round that gonna jump into the lightning round that part of the episode where we ask similar part of the episode where we ask similar part of the episode where we ask similar questions everybody that's on the show questions everybody that's on the show questions everybody that's on the show today has been a great conversation with

today has been a great conversation with today has been a great conversation with Mike Bonham a great author leader Mike Bonham a great author leader Mike Bonham a great author leader consultant I've just been so glad to consultant I've just been so glad to consultant I've just been so glad to have you on the episode today Kurt I'm have you on the episode today Kurt I'm have you on the episode today Kurt I'm like what is an online resource that like what is an online resource that like what is an online resource that you're using that's helping you you know you're using that's helping you you know you're using that's helping you you know I know people many of your audience have I know people many of your audience have I know people many of your audience have probably been using Evernote for a while probably been using Evernote for a while probably been using Evernote for a while but gosh I love or know it is so helpful but gosh I love or know it is so helpful but gosh I love or know it is so helpful to me out I started using it I guess to me out I started using it I guess to me out I started using it I guess about three or four years ago and just about three or four years ago and just about three or four years ago and just continued to be huge I've also recently continued to be huge I've also recently continued to be huge I've also recently started experimenting a little bit with started experimenting a little bit with started experimenting a little bit with time trade yes which okay you know yeah time trade yes which okay you know yeah time trade yes which okay you know yeah it's an online scheduling and he just it's an online scheduling and he just it's an online scheduling and he just lets me send an email out and say hey I lets me send an email out and say hey I lets me send an email out and say hey I need to schedule a meeting with you and need to schedule a meeting with you and need to schedule a meeting with you and it links into my calendar and shows him it links into my calendar and shows him it links into my calendar and shows him what's available and then they can just what's available and then they can just what's available and then they can just click and it pops the phone to my click and it pops the phone to my click and it pops the phone to my calendar and there so that that's a cool calendar and there so that that's a cool calendar and there so that that's a cool resource yeah time trades fantastic I resource yeah time trades fantastic I resource yeah time trades fantastic I use it for scheduling these interviews use it for scheduling these interviews use it for scheduling these interviews and for a number of other you know kind and for a number of other you know kind and for a number of other you know kind of phonecall things and it's it's valid of phonecall things and it's it's valid of phonecall things and it's it's valid literally just this week was talking to literally just this week was talking to literally just this week was talking to a pastor a church planner who's like I a pastor a church planner who's like I a pastor a church planner who's like I want to meet with all these people but want to meet with all these people but want to meet with all these people but I'm stuck in all this like I get trying I'm stuck in all this like I get trying I'm stuck in all this like I get trying to schedule am is so much time obviously to schedule am is so much time obviously to schedule am is so much time obviously the church planner doesn't have time to the church planner doesn't have time to the church planner doesn't have time to like hire an assistant can't afford an like hire an assistant can't afford an like hire an assistant can't afford an assistant yeah so I was like well use assistant yeah so I was like well use assistant yeah so I was like well use time trade and you could literally say time trade and you could literally say time trade and you could literally say okay I'm gonna be at this Starbucks on okay I'm gonna be at this Starbucks on okay I'm gonna be at this Starbucks on Wednesday nights and I could book you Wednesday nights and I could book you Wednesday nights and I could book you know one hour meetings and you just send know one hour meetings and you just send know one hour meetings and you just send that out to people and it'll tell the that out to people and it'll tell the that out to people and it'll tell the people where it is and you know book it people where it is and you know book it people where it is and you know book it in the calendar that's that's fantastic in the calendar that's that's fantastic in the calendar that's that's fantastic great great tool what's a book you've great great tool what's a book you've great great tool what's a book you've read in the last I don't know six months read in the last I don't know six months read in the last I don't know six months to a year that's had an impact on your to a year that's had an impact on your to a year that's had an impact on your thinking or ministry um you know to come thinking or ministry um you know to come thinking or ministry um you know to come to mind Ridge it's really gonna be three to mind Ridge it's really gonna be three to mind Ridge it's really gonna be three but but I ran across Brenda Browns work but but I ran across Brenda Browns work but but I ran across Brenda Browns work a couple of years ago like a lot of a couple of years ago like a lot of a couple of years ago like a lot of people somebody said you got to watch

people somebody said you got to watch people somebody said you got to watch his TED talk and so I did and read his TED talk and so I did and read his TED talk and so I did and read daring greatly right after that and then daring greatly right after that and then daring greatly right after that and then she got a new book out called rising she got a new book out called rising she got a new book out called rising strong and I really like I think what strong and I really like I think what strong and I really like I think what she says he votes not written she says he votes not written she says he votes not written specifically for you know ministers and specifically for you know ministers and specifically for you know ministers and church leaders but gosh what she said church leaders but gosh what she said church leaders but gosh what she said about being willing to lean into about being willing to lean into about being willing to lean into vulnerability and and dealing with shame vulnerability and and dealing with shame vulnerability and and dealing with shame and its environmental issues is huge and its environmental issues is huge and its environmental issues is huge yeah yeah yeah a real differently yeah yeah yeah a real differently yeah yeah yeah a real differently I read Eric Metaxas book amazing grace I read Eric Metaxas book amazing grace I read Eric Metaxas book amazing grace about William Wilberforce how just about William Wilberforce how just about William Wilberforce how just inspired what God can do through one inspired what God can do through one inspired what God can do through one person who gets is really committed to person who gets is really committed to person who gets is really committed to doing whatever God wants him to do and doing whatever God wants him to do and doing whatever God wants him to do and not in it you know not so much about not in it you know not so much about not in it you know not so much about building you know my kingdom but you building you know my kingdom but you building you know my kingdom but you know God how do you want to use me in know God how do you want to use me in know God how do you want to use me in wow what an inspirational story very wow what an inspirational story very wow what an inspirational story very cool that's great great stuff what's not cool that's great great stuff what's not cool that's great great stuff what's not the ministry you're looking to you the ministry you're looking to you the ministry you're looking to you obviously have exposure to a lot of obviously have exposure to a lot of obviously have exposure to a lot of churches across the country waters churches across the country waters churches across the country waters another ministry you're looking at another ministry you're looking at another ministry you're looking at that's inspiring you yeah you know I that's inspiring you yeah you know I that's inspiring you yeah you know I mean a number come to mind but one that mean a number come to mind but one that mean a number come to mind but one that one that popped into my mind is Church one that popped into my mind is Church one that popped into my mind is Church of the Resurrection United Methodist of the Resurrection United Methodist of the Resurrection United Methodist Church up at the Kansas City area and Church up at the Kansas City area and Church up at the Kansas City area and what I like a lot of things about them what I like a lot of things about them what I like a lot of things about them but a couple of things specifically you but a couple of things specifically you but a couple of things specifically you know a lot of people who are not in know a lot of people who are not in know a lot of people who are not in mainline churches kind of look at the mainline churches kind of look at the mainline churches kind of look at the mainline denominations and say nothing mainline denominations and say nothing mainline denominations and say nothing good is happening there long boy that is good is happening there long boy that is good is happening there long boy that is an amazing Church Adam Hamilton and the an amazing Church Adam Hamilton and the an amazing Church Adam Hamilton and the team there this is really powerful team there this is really powerful team there this is really powerful ministry and and just to see that in a ministry and and just to see that in a ministry and and just to see that in a mainline setting I think it's really mainline setting I think it's really mainline setting I think it's really encouraging and I love that they have a

encouraging and I love that they have a encouraging and I love that they have a heart for their own tribe and and so you heart for their own tribe and and so you heart for their own tribe and and so you know their big conference is how it's know their big conference is how it's know their big conference is how it's not limited to other Methodist Church not limited to other Methodist Church not limited to other Methodist Church leaders but it's really geared towards leaders but it's really geared towards leaders but it's really geared towards how can we take what we've learned and how can we take what we've learned and how can we take what we've learned and specifically strengthen a lot of specifically strengthen a lot of specifically strengthen a lot of churches that are frankly struggling in churches that are frankly struggling in churches that are frankly struggling in their own mainline context right I their own mainline context right I their own mainline context right I really admire what they do there yeah really admire what they do there yeah really admire what they do there yeah very cool that's vertical thing to check very cool that's vertical thing to check very cool that's vertical thing to check them out if you could get 15 minutes them out if you could get 15 minutes them out if you could get 15 minutes with any leader alive today who would with any leader alive today who would with any leader alive today who would that be in why you know the one who that be in why you know the one who that be in why you know the one who comes to mind immediately for me it's comes to mind immediately for me it's comes to mind immediately for me it's Bill Hybels and I'm sure others you know Bill Hybels and I'm sure others you know Bill Hybels and I'm sure others you know on this podcast have mentioned him and on this podcast have mentioned him and on this podcast have mentioned him and they get a lot of different reasons but they get a lot of different reasons but they get a lot of different reasons but one of the things I particularly admire one of the things I particularly admire one of the things I particularly admire is his longevity socially I mean you is his longevity socially I mean you is his longevity socially I mean you know - it's it's one thing to build a know - it's it's one thing to build a know - it's it's one thing to build a great organization it's another thing to great organization it's another thing to great organization it's another thing to build a great organization that lasts build a great organization that lasts build a great organization that lasts for a long period of time - stick with for a long period of time - stick with for a long period of time - stick with it they're good times and bad times - to it they're good times and bad times - to it they're good times and bad times - to just stay really faithful in that and just stay really faithful in that and just stay really faithful in that and you know and I just I really admire that you know and I just I really admire that you know and I just I really admire that about him about him about him you know would like to sit down with him you know would like to sit down with him you know would like to sit down with him like you said yeah absolutely and he like you said yeah absolutely and he like you said yeah absolutely and he stay he's definitely getting to that stay he's definitely getting to that stay he's definitely getting to that category of leader like Billy Graham category of leader like Billy Graham category of leader like Billy Graham where you say man where you say man where you say man integrity obviously he's obviously how integrity obviously he's obviously how integrity obviously he's obviously how huge integrity but the just the length huge integrity but the just the length huge integrity but the just the length of that integrity you know just of that integrity you know just of that integrity you know just continues to just build momentum you continues to just build momentum you continues to just build momentum you know for your respect for you know a guy know for your respect for you know a guy know for your respect for you know a guy like Hybels obviously had huge impact like Hybels obviously had huge impact like Hybels obviously had huge impact around the world for sure well I really around the world for sure well I really around the world for sure well I really appreciate be on the show today I know appreciate be on the show today I know appreciate be on the show today I know you know you're busy consulting coaching you know you're busy consulting coaching you know you're busy consulting coaching writing when you just want to kick back writing when you just want to kick back writing when you just want to kick back you know have some fun what do you do

you know have some fun what do you do you know have some fun what do you do just for fun in life I'm a runner I've just for fun in life I'm a runner I've just for fun in life I'm a runner I've been a runner for all my life so I yeah been a runner for all my life so I yeah been a runner for all my life so I yeah I'm I'm not one of these guys who says I I'm I'm not one of these guys who says I I'm I'm not one of these guys who says I have to go out and run I'm more like I have to go out and run I'm more like I have to go out and run I'm more like I get to because it's it's actually fun get to because it's it's actually fun get to because it's it's actually fun and relaxing for me and I love the and relaxing for me and I love the and relaxing for me and I love the outdoors which is incredibly ironic outdoors which is incredibly ironic outdoors which is incredibly ironic because I live right in the middle of because I live right in the middle of because I live right in the middle of Houston and so it's like humidity Houston and so it's like humidity Houston and so it's like humidity capital and now there aren't any great capital and now there aren't any great capital and now there aren't any great you know huge parts around us but you know huge parts around us but you know huge parts around us but whenever I can really get away from whenever I can really get away from whenever I can really get away from Houston be outdoors I like that first Houston be outdoors I like that first Houston be outdoors I like that first love spending time with my family our love spending time with my family our love spending time with my family our our kids are all adult or close to our kids are all adult or close to our kids are all adult or close to adults and so whenever we can all be adults and so whenever we can all be adults and so whenever we can all be together is is is really rewarding together is is is really rewarding together is is is really rewarding commitment very cool well Mike I commitment very cool well Mike I commitment very cool well Mike I appreciate be on the show today if appreciate be on the show today if appreciate be on the show today if people want to get in touch with you people want to get in touch with you people want to get in touch with you learn more about you know your writing learn more about you know your writing learn more about you know your writing and that how can they do that yeah easy and that how can they do that yeah easy and that how can they do that yeah easy saying is to go up on my website Mike saying is to go up on my website Mike saying is to go up on my website Mike Bahama comm just yeah first night last Bahama comm just yeah first night last Bahama comm just yeah first night last night calm great thanks so much my night calm great thanks so much my night calm great thanks so much my appreciate we have pre-shave you I was appreciate we have pre-shave you I was appreciate we have pre-shave you I was gonna say yeah email is my cat my gonna say yeah email is my cat my gonna say yeah email is my cat my comment okay great perfect yeah comment okay great perfect yeah comment okay great perfect yeah everybody can email Mike that would be everybody can email Mike that would be everybody can email Mike that would be good good good appreciate you on the show today it rich appreciate you on the show today it rich appreciate you on the show today it rich thanks a lot thanks a lot thanks a lot thank you for tuning in to this week's thank you for tuning in to this week's thank you for tuning in to this week's unsung re podcast don't be shy we'd love unsung re podcast don't be shy we'd love unsung re podcast don't be shy we'd love to connect check out uncie Maneri inbox to connect check out uncie Maneri inbox to connect check out uncie Maneri inbox you can sign up at unsummon re calm and you can sign up at unsummon re calm and you can sign up at unsummon re calm and we'll send you helpful training we'll send you helpful training we'll send you helpful training resources every week plus you'll gain resources every week plus you'll gain resources every week plus you'll gain immediate access to our exclusive immediate access to our exclusive immediate access to our exclusive members area with tons of resources you members area with tons of resources you members area with tons of resources you can use connect with rich on twitter at can use connect with rich on twitter at can use connect with rich on twitter at rich birch or through email rich at rich birch or through email rich at rich birch or through email rich at unsummon Ericom don't forget to check unsummon Ericom don't forget to check unsummon Ericom don't forget to check out the show notes for this episode at out the show notes for this episode at out the show notes for this episode at inseminate calm it includes links to

inseminate calm it includes links to inseminate calm it includes links to what we talked about today and more what we talked about today and more what we talked about today and more leave a comment we'd love to hear from leave a comment we'd love to hear from leave a comment we'd love to hear from you did you enjoy today's episode drop you did you enjoy today's episode drop you did you enjoy today's episode drop by iTunes and leave a review thanks by iTunes and leave a review thanks by iTunes and leave a review thanks again for tuning in to this week's again for tuning in to this week's again for tuning in to this week's unsung nary podcast join us next week unsung nary podcast join us next week unsung nary podcast join us next week when we'll learn more stuff we wish they when we'll learn more stuff we wish they when we'll learn more stuff we wish they taught in seminary