When Growth Creates Pressure: Facilities, Space and What to Do in 2026 with Eric Garza

You know, one of our core values at our You know, one of our core values at our church is excellence. And we've defined church is excellence. And we've defined church is excellence. And we've defined excellence as not having the best, but excellence as not having the best, but excellence as not having the best, but doing the best with what you have. >> Growth pressure, staffing questions, >> Growth pressure, staffing questions, facility decisions, and the emotional facility decisions, and the emotional facility decisions, and the emotional weight of leading teams. That's the weight of leading teams. That's the weight of leading teams. That's the world executive pastors are navigating world executive pastors are navigating world executive pastors are navigating right now. Today on the Unseminary right now. Today on the Unseminary right now. Today on the Unseminary Podcast, we're sitting down with an Podcast, we're sitting down with an Podcast, we're sitting down with an executive pastor from a prevailing executive pastor from a prevailing executive pastor from a prevailing church to unpack what leaders like you church to unpack what leaders like you church to unpack what leaders like you shared in the national executive pastor shared in the national executive pastor shared in the national executive pastor survey so you can lead forward with survey so you can lead forward with survey so you can lead forward with clarity. Hey friends, welcome to the Unseminary Hey friends, welcome to the Unseminary podcast. So glad that you have decided podcast. So glad that you have decided podcast. So glad that you have decided to tune in. We are in the middle of in to tune in. We are in the middle of in to tune in. We are in the middle of in the in the midst of is maybe a better the in the midst of is maybe a better the in the midst of is maybe a better way to say these special set of podcasts way to say these special set of podcasts way to say these special set of podcasts where we're responding to what you said where we're responding to what you said where we're responding to what you said in the national executive pastor survey in the national executive pastor survey in the national executive pastor survey which uh turned out to be the largest which uh turned out to be the largest which uh turned out to be the largest dedicated or direct uh executive pastor dedicated or direct uh executive pastor dedicated or direct uh executive pastor survey that we're aware of ever which is survey that we're aware of ever which is survey that we're aware of ever which is kind of cool. And um hundreds of people kind of cool. And um hundreds of people kind of cool. And um hundreds of people you know logged in and told gave us a you know logged in and told gave us a you know logged in and told gave us a sense of where ministry is at. And what sense of where ministry is at. And what sense of where ministry is at. And what we've been doing is spending time with we've been doing is spending time with we've been doing is spending time with an executive pastor from a prevailing an executive pastor from a prevailing an executive pastor from a prevailing church uh and frankly people I like to church uh and frankly people I like to church uh and frankly people I like to uh get their uh thoughts on kind of what uh get their uh thoughts on kind of what uh get their uh thoughts on kind of what was surfaced. And today we've got a big was surfaced. And today we've got a big was surfaced. And today we've got a big one. This is a significant issue. In one. This is a significant issue. In one. This is a significant issue. In fact, it was the single biggest fear fact, it was the single biggest fear fact, it was the single biggest fear that was expressed. We asked a question that was expressed. We asked a question that was expressed. We asked a question around uh what's your kind of biggest

around uh what's your kind of biggest around uh what's your kind of biggest fear for this year? And uh nearly 1 in fear for this year? And uh nearly 1 in fear for this year? And uh nearly 1 in five uh executive pastors expressed fear five uh executive pastors expressed fear five uh executive pastors expressed fear about this. And what is that fear? It's about this. And what is that fear? It's about this. And what is that fear? It's the whole issue of our facilities, the whole issue of our facilities, the whole issue of our facilities, space, capital projects, that sort of space, capital projects, that sort of space, capital projects, that sort of thing. Many churches are running out of thing. Many churches are running out of thing. Many churches are running out of kids space, parking, seating, lobby kids space, parking, seating, lobby kids space, parking, seating, lobby capacity. You know, we're all worried capacity. You know, we're all worried capacity. You know, we're all worried about um in inflation of construction about um in inflation of construction about um in inflation of construction costs. If you got a building quoted on 5 costs. If you got a building quoted on 5 costs. If you got a building quoted on 5 years ago, you're going to want to get years ago, you're going to want to get years ago, you're going to want to get it quoted on again. uh you know, it quoted on again. uh you know, it quoted on again. uh you know, renovation, building, all of this stuff. renovation, building, all of this stuff. renovation, building, all of this stuff. And you know, we're excited to have uh And you know, we're excited to have uh And you know, we're excited to have uh today a return guest, Eric Garza, with today a return guest, Eric Garza, with today a return guest, Eric Garza, with us. He is from a fantastic church, Cross us. He is from a fantastic church, Cross us. He is from a fantastic church, Cross Church, which is located in Texas. It's Church, which is located in Texas. It's Church, which is located in Texas. It's one of the fastest growing churches of one of the fastest growing churches of one of the fastest growing churches of uh in the country, and they have 12 uh in the country, and they have 12 uh in the country, and they have 12 campuses if I'm counting correctly. So, campuses if I'm counting correctly. So, campuses if I'm counting correctly. So, Eric has thought about facilities, and Eric has thought about facilities, and Eric has thought about facilities, and so excited to have you back on the show, so excited to have you back on the show, so excited to have you back on the show, Eric. Thanks for being here. Eric. Thanks for being here. Eric. Thanks for being here. >> Rich, thanks for having me back. good to >> Rich, thanks for having me back. good to >> Rich, thanks for having me back. good to have a opportunity to have a great have a opportunity to have a great have a opportunity to have a great conversation about a big topic for a lot conversation about a big topic for a lot conversation about a big topic for a lot of pastors and executives across the of pastors and executives across the of pastors and executives across the country. Yeah.

country. Yeah. country. Yeah. >> Well, you're going to solve all our >> Well, you're going to solve all our >> Well, you're going to solve all our problems for us today, Eric. So, problems for us today, Eric. So, problems for us today, Eric. So, >> you guys just some nuggets what I've >> you guys just some nuggets what I've >> you guys just some nuggets what I've learned from experience, but if I can learned from experience, but if I can learned from experience, but if I can make your life and your world a little make your life and your world a little make your life and your world a little bit better. Awesome. bit better. Awesome. bit better. Awesome. >> That's great. That's good. Kind of tell >> That's great. That's good. Kind of tell >> That's great. That's good. Kind of tell us a little bit about Cross again, kind us a little bit about Cross again, kind us a little bit about Cross again, kind of set the context. Yeah. of set the context. Yeah. of set the context. Yeah. >> Um, you know, give us a bit of sense of >> Um, you know, give us a bit of sense of >> Um, you know, give us a bit of sense of the the church. the the church. the the church. >> Yeah. So, we're in deep south Texas. Uh >> Yeah. So, we're in deep south Texas. Uh >> Yeah. So, we're in deep south Texas. Uh most of our campuses are within a half most of our campuses are within a half most of our campuses are within a half hour north of the US Mexico border. Uh hour north of the US Mexico border. Uh hour north of the US Mexico border. Uh so right at the bottom of the tip of so right at the bottom of the tip of so right at the bottom of the tip of Texas. Uh 30 years going on 31 years as Texas. Uh 30 years going on 31 years as Texas. Uh 30 years going on 31 years as a ministry. In the last eight years we a ministry. In the last eight years we a ministry. In the last eight years we went from one site uh to now seven went from one site uh to now seven went from one site uh to now seven locations, physical locations and 12 locations, physical locations and 12 locations, physical locations and 12 campuses. We're a bilingual ministry campuses. We're a bilingual ministry campuses. We're a bilingual ministry which means we do we have English which means we do we have English which means we do we have English campuses and we have Spanish campuses. campuses and we have Spanish campuses. campuses and we have Spanish campuses. Uh and we recently last year in 2025 Uh and we recently last year in 2025 Uh and we recently last year in 2025 launched our first campus outside of our launched our first campus outside of our launched our first campus outside of our region uh in San Antonio, Texas. region uh in San Antonio, Texas. region uh in San Antonio, Texas. >> And you can imagine a lot of uh >> And you can imagine a lot of uh >> And you can imagine a lot of uh victories and a lot of challenges uh you victories and a lot of challenges uh you victories and a lot of challenges uh you know leaving your space, your comfort know leaving your space, your comfort know leaving your space, your comfort area, the region where you've been for area, the region where you've been for area, the region where you've been for 30 years and then heading out and 30 years and then heading out and 30 years and then heading out and venturing off into what we believe God venturing off into what we believe God venturing off into what we believe God called us to do in central Texas. So called us to do in central Texas. So called us to do in central Texas. So just phenomenal growth. uh we've seen just phenomenal growth. uh we've seen just phenomenal growth. uh we've seen God's hand upon our ministry and it's God's hand upon our ministry and it's God's hand upon our ministry and it's come with like I said a lot of wins and come with like I said a lot of wins and come with like I said a lot of wins and a lot of challenges we've had to a lot of challenges we've had to a lot of challenges we've had to navigate and being a a predominantly navigate and being a a predominantly navigate and being a a predominantly Hispanic ministry that uh reaches both Hispanic ministry that uh reaches both Hispanic ministry that uh reaches both English uh congregants and Spanish English uh congregants and Spanish English uh congregants and Spanish congregants dealing with cultural congregants dealing with cultural congregants dealing with cultural political issues in our region of the

political issues in our region of the political issues in our region of the country uh has just been a whirlwind uh country uh has just been a whirlwind uh country uh has just been a whirlwind uh but as anybody could imagine uh it's but as anybody could imagine uh it's but as anybody could imagine uh it's been a big learning season for us for been a big learning season for us for been a big learning season for us for expansion expansion expansion I know we're talking about facilities I know we're talking about facilities I know we're talking about facilities going from one site to multi-sight and going from one site to multi-sight and going from one site to multi-sight and all of that that entails operationally, all of that that entails operationally, all of that that entails operationally, logistically, financially. So, uh I logistically, financially. So, uh I logistically, financially. So, uh I wouldn't say we know it all. We wouldn't say we know it all. We wouldn't say we know it all. We certainly don't. If we're always certainly don't. If we're always certainly don't. If we're always learning, but man, if if we can just learning, but man, if if we can just learning, but man, if if we can just impart any wisdom, uh we're we're all impart any wisdom, uh we're we're all impart any wisdom, uh we're we're all for that. for that. for that. >> Love it. Well, I would say I actually >> Love it. Well, I would say I actually >> Love it. Well, I would say I actually relooked at a lot of these fears and the relooked at a lot of these fears and the relooked at a lot of these fears and the overall tone if you were to kind of um overall tone if you were to kind of um overall tone if you were to kind of um summarize the the conversation that summarize the the conversation that summarize the the conversation that people seem to be expressing is like people seem to be expressing is like people seem to be expressing is like there's this sense from a lot of there's this sense from a lot of there's this sense from a lot of executive pastors, listen, our ministry executive pastors, listen, our ministry executive pastors, listen, our ministry could grow, but our space frankly is could grow, but our space frankly is could grow, but our space frankly is holding us back and we're not entirely holding us back and we're not entirely holding us back and we're not entirely sure what the path forward is. It's like sure what the path forward is. It's like sure what the path forward is. It's like I we we see the physical space issues, I we we see the physical space issues, I we we see the physical space issues, but I'm not sure where to go from here. but I'm not sure where to go from here. but I'm not sure where to go from here. So, I'd love to jump right in. How have So, I'd love to jump right in. How have So, I'd love to jump right in. How have you as you've looked at your seven you as you've looked at your seven you as you've looked at your seven physical locations, 12 campuses, how do physical locations, 12 campuses, how do physical locations, 12 campuses, how do you evaluate facility limitations and you evaluate facility limitations and you evaluate facility limitations and are they the things that are actually are they the things that are actually are they the things that are actually restricting growth or does does the restricting growth or does does the restricting growth or does does the issue lie somewhere else? How do you how issue lie somewhere else? How do you how issue lie somewhere else? How do you how are you discerning that when you look at are you discerning that when you look at are you discerning that when you look at you know this this whole issue?

you know this this whole issue? you know this this whole issue? >> Yeah. Uh a lot of our of our growth has >> Yeah. Uh a lot of our of our growth has >> Yeah. Uh a lot of our of our growth has come from us planning campuses. come from us planning campuses. come from us planning campuses. uh but some of our growth has come from uh but some of our growth has come from uh but some of our growth has come from uh I guess what the corporate world uh I guess what the corporate world uh I guess what the corporate world calls mergers and acquisitions calls mergers and acquisitions calls mergers and acquisitions >> where we've uh merged or really acquired >> where we've uh merged or really acquired >> where we've uh merged or really acquired other ministries other ministries other ministries uh who either had an existing facility uh who either had an existing facility uh who either had an existing facility uh that we took over or where we uh that we took over or where we uh that we took over or where we partnered with them through the partnered with them through the partnered with them through the acquisition and launched a campus in a acquisition and launched a campus in a acquisition and launched a campus in a new building or a new facility. So some new building or a new facility. So some new building or a new facility. So some of the things that we've done is there's of the things that we've done is there's of the things that we've done is there's a whole process right that that is a whole process right that that is a whole process right that that is entailed with going multi-sight and one entailed with going multi-sight and one entailed with going multi-sight and one of those big key indicators of whether of those big key indicators of whether of those big key indicators of whether the campus or the church plant is going the campus or the church plant is going the campus or the church plant is going to succeed is whether they have a to succeed is whether they have a to succeed is whether they have a sustainable facility that can house all sustainable facility that can house all sustainable facility that can house all aspects of the ministry aspects of the ministry aspects of the ministry >> and sometimes that can be difficult to >> and sometimes that can be difficult to >> and sometimes that can be difficult to find. For example, you don't just want a find. For example, you don't just want a find. For example, you don't just want a meeting space to have services, right? meeting space to have services, right? meeting space to have services, right? You need maybe an office space, you need You need maybe an office space, you need You need maybe an office space, you need child care space, you need uh meeting child care space, you need uh meeting child care space, you need uh meeting space, you need lobby, restrooms, you space, you need lobby, restrooms, you space, you need lobby, restrooms, you need adequate parking, and all of those need adequate parking, and all of those need adequate parking, and all of those factors come into play when you're factors come into play when you're factors come into play when you're looking to find the right space. And so looking to find the right space. And so looking to find the right space. And so for us, we've just been blessed that uh for us, we've just been blessed that uh for us, we've just been blessed that uh either we've uh you know gone through either we've uh you know gone through either we've uh you know gone through the capital campaigns, we've gone the capital campaigns, we've gone the capital campaigns, we've gone through the funding, the you know through the funding, the you know through the funding, the you know internal funding to build new facilities internal funding to build new facilities internal funding to build new facilities or the acquisitions that we've done over or the acquisitions that we've done over or the acquisitions that we've done over the last couple of years already had an the last couple of years already had an the last couple of years already had an existing facility which is a plus existing facility which is a plus existing facility which is a plus >> because instead of building we just went >> because instead of building we just went >> because instead of building we just went into a remodel phase uh to bring that

into a remodel phase uh to bring that into a remodel phase uh to bring that building up to what we would call our building up to what we would call our building up to what we would call our cross standard um to house our campus cross standard um to house our campus cross standard um to house our campus and facility. And so I mean it's it's a and facility. And so I mean it's it's a and facility. And so I mean it's it's a holistic approach. Uh you look at holistic approach. Uh you look at holistic approach. Uh you look at parking kids space. What you don't want parking kids space. What you don't want parking kids space. What you don't want to do and what what we've run into in to do and what what we've run into in to do and what what we've run into in the past the past the past >> is it it's okay to to launch with >> is it it's okay to to launch with >> is it it's okay to to launch with limited space. But if you're launching limited space. But if you're launching limited space. But if you're launching and you already have a couple hundred and you already have a couple hundred and you already have a couple hundred people that are gathered, uh you're people that are gathered, uh you're people that are gathered, uh you're going to want to find a space that's going to want to find a space that's going to want to find a space that's going to give you ample room to have one going to give you ample room to have one going to give you ample room to have one or two services without having to punch or two services without having to punch or two services without having to punch yourself in the short term. uh and it's yourself in the short term. uh and it's yourself in the short term. uh and it's going to in a in a in a larger sense going to in a in a in a larger sense going to in a in a in a larger sense going to really uh facilitate some going to really uh facilitate some going to really uh facilitate some challenge and some angst and challenge and some angst and challenge and some angst and frustrations early on. Uh and you want frustrations early on. Uh and you want frustrations early on. Uh and you want to minimize as much of that especially to minimize as much of that especially to minimize as much of that especially when you're when you're launching and when you're when you're launching and when you're when you're launching and you're setting out uh to start a new you're setting out uh to start a new you're setting out uh to start a new campus or a new church. campus or a new church. campus or a new church. >> Yeah. So that's uh one of those kind of >> Yeah. So that's uh one of those kind of >> Yeah. So that's uh one of those kind of pinch points would be too small, right? pinch points would be too small, right? pinch points would be too small, right? Like I'm assuming you've ended up in Like I'm assuming you've ended up in Like I'm assuming you've ended up in facilities where it's like, okay, this facilities where it's like, okay, this facilities where it's like, okay, this is this just frankly is too small and so is this just frankly is too small and so is this just frankly is too small and so we've got to it's not going to work. we've got to it's not going to work. we've got to it's not going to work. we're going to have to start with three we're going to have to start with three we're going to have to start with three services and that, you know, or services and that, you know, or services and that, you know, or something like that or or we'll start something like that or or we'll start something like that or or we'll start with two and we'll be pinched too with two and we'll be pinched too with two and we'll be pinched too quickly. Are there any other kind of quickly. Are there any other kind of quickly. Are there any other kind of trip wires that you've run into that are trip wires that you've run into that are trip wires that you've run into that are like, oh, like it might be great on like, oh, like it might be great on like, oh, like it might be great on these five things, but this these if these five things, but this these if these five things, but this these if it's not these two or three, if these it's not these two or three, if these it's not these two or three, if these aren't right, we we're not going in aren't right, we we're not going in aren't right, we we're not going in there. Are there any other things to get there. Are there any other things to get there. Are there any other things to get to, as you said, a sustainable facility?

to, as you said, a sustainable facility? to, as you said, a sustainable facility? Are there any kind of big no- nos that Are there any kind of big no- nos that Are there any kind of big no- nos that you've bumped into or maybe you wish you you've bumped into or maybe you wish you you've bumped into or maybe you wish you knew before? Um, yeah, tell me about knew before? Um, yeah, tell me about knew before? Um, yeah, tell me about that. that. that. >> Yeah, a couple of things. Uh, number one >> Yeah, a couple of things. Uh, number one >> Yeah, a couple of things. Uh, number one is don't uh start a church next to the is don't uh start a church next to the is don't uh start a church next to the railroad tracks. Uh, that may sound a railroad tracks. Uh, that may sound a railroad tracks. Uh, that may sound a little funny. little funny. little funny. >> No, tell me more. >> No, tell me more. >> No, tell me more. >> Know that during your Sunday morning >> Know that during your Sunday morning >> Know that during your Sunday morning message at your 10:00 service, roughly message at your 10:00 service, roughly message at your 10:00 service, roughly about 10:40 a.m., about 10:40 a.m., about 10:40 a.m., >> this train who's two or three blocks >> this train who's two or three blocks >> this train who's two or three blocks away is going to come blaring out away is going to come blaring out away is going to come blaring out >> uh and just completely disrupt your >> uh and just completely disrupt your >> uh and just completely disrupt your sound and and your service and your sound and and your service and your sound and and your service and your message for a few minutes. Uh so it may message for a few minutes. Uh so it may message for a few minutes. Uh so it may sound comical but uh yeah definitely sound comical but uh yeah definitely sound comical but uh yeah definitely don't do that right. don't do that right. don't do that right. >> No that's very good. That's well and >> No that's very good. That's well and >> No that's very good. That's well and even going and seeing that's a great even going and seeing that's a great even going and seeing that's a great takeaway because even going and seeing takeaway because even going and seeing takeaway because even going and seeing the facility during a Sunday morning the facility during a Sunday morning the facility during a Sunday morning like because you wouldn't know that if like because you wouldn't know that if like because you wouldn't know that if you're there to just Tuesday afternoon you're there to just Tuesday afternoon you're there to just Tuesday afternoon or something you would have no sense of or something you would have no sense of or something you would have no sense of that but but because it might be a train that but but because it might be a train that but but because it might be a train but there's I can see lots of things to but there's I can see lots of things to but there's I can see lots of things to Monday through Friday. Monday through Friday. Monday through Friday. >> Yes. Yeah. >> Yes. Yeah. >> Yes. Yeah. >> Every day as they need and so you just >> Every day as they need and so you just >> Every day as they need and so you just you just never know. That has happened a you just never know. That has happened a you just never know. That has happened a couple of times and it's incredibly couple of times and it's incredibly couple of times and it's incredibly frustrating, frustrating, frustrating, right? You cut off the middle of the right? You cut off the middle of the right? You cut off the middle of the service, but man, it can it can mess it service, but man, it can it can mess it service, but man, it can it can mess it can mess with some stuff. The second can mess with some stuff. The second can mess with some stuff. The second thing I would say is is this when thing I would say is is this when thing I would say is is this when looking for a facility, um there's looking for a facility, um there's looking for a facility, um there's obviously some inate some internal obviously some inate some internal obviously some inate some internal perhaps pressure or self-imposed perhaps pressure or self-imposed perhaps pressure or self-imposed pressure as a pastor or an executive pressure as a pastor or an executive pressure as a pastor or an executive >> uh to want to get into a permanent >> uh to want to get into a permanent >> uh to want to get into a permanent facility right away. One of the things facility right away. One of the things facility right away. One of the things that helped us early on with with a that helped us early on with with a that helped us early on with with a couple of our campuses um is we actually

couple of our campuses um is we actually couple of our campuses um is we actually rented. And here's the benefit of rented. And here's the benefit of rented. And here's the benefit of renting or leasing even for a year or renting or leasing even for a year or renting or leasing even for a year or two as you grow that site is number one, two as you grow that site is number one, two as you grow that site is number one, you're not worried about insurance, you're not worried about insurance, you're not worried about insurance, right? You're not worried about right? You're not worried about right? You're not worried about lawsuits. You're not worried about uh lawsuits. You're not worried about uh lawsuits. You're not worried about uh maintenance or you're paying for that, maintenance or you're paying for that, maintenance or you're paying for that, right? But there's a lot that you right? But there's a lot that you right? But there's a lot that you minimize when it comes to overloading minimize when it comes to overloading minimize when it comes to overloading your mind and your brain about what you your mind and your brain about what you your mind and your brain about what you have to handle, have to handle, have to handle, >> right? And so you pay a fee, but the >> right? And so you pay a fee, but the >> right? And so you pay a fee, but the building's clean when you come in and building's clean when you come in and building's clean when you come in and right after you set, you know, you tear right after you set, you know, you tear right after you set, you know, you tear down your equipment for the service in down your equipment for the service in down your equipment for the service in your kids area. You don't have to worry your kids area. You don't have to worry your kids area. You don't have to worry about that because you're leasing a about that because you're leasing a about that because you're leasing a space. And so, like I said, as much of space. And so, like I said, as much of space. And so, like I said, as much of the the the >> overload of operations and facilities on >> overload of operations and facilities on >> overload of operations and facilities on the on the front end, that's that's a the on the front end, that's that's a the on the front end, that's that's a great a great thing. and most spaces, great a great thing. and most spaces, great a great thing. and most spaces, right? What we did early on is if we had right? What we did early on is if we had right? What we did early on is if we had an event center where we would rent the an event center where we would rent the an event center where we would rent the main auditorium, uh we would use main auditorium, uh we would use main auditorium, uh we would use conference rooms or or multi-purpose conference rooms or or multi-purpose conference rooms or or multi-purpose rooms for child care. We would safe rooms for child care. We would safe rooms for child care. We would safe proof them, proof them, proof them, >> right? All of our protocols in place. >> right? All of our protocols in place. >> right? All of our protocols in place. >> Uh but that's what we would do early on >> Uh but that's what we would do early on >> Uh but that's what we would do early on and it would give us a chance to test and it would give us a chance to test and it would give us a chance to test and gather some data.

and gather some data. and gather some data. >> Is this going to work long term? >> Is this going to work long term? >> Is this going to work long term? >> Right? Number one, we don't believe we >> Right? Number one, we don't believe we >> Right? Number one, we don't believe we missed God. But if after a couple of missed God. But if after a couple of missed God. But if after a couple of years this isn't going anywhere, years this isn't going anywhere, years this isn't going anywhere, >> uh, well, thank God we didn't buy a >> uh, well, thank God we didn't buy a >> uh, well, thank God we didn't buy a building because now we're, you know, up building because now we're, you know, up building because now we're, you know, up a creek without a paddle, as they say. a creek without a paddle, as they say. a creek without a paddle, as they say. >> And so leasing is not is not an entirely >> And so leasing is not is not an entirely >> And so leasing is not is not an entirely bad idea on the process. Definitely bad idea on the process. Definitely bad idea on the process. Definitely the neighborhood that you're in, uh, the neighborhood that you're in, uh, the neighborhood that you're in, uh, right? The side of town that you're in. right? The side of town that you're in. right? The side of town that you're in. You want to be in a in a in a centrally You want to be in a in a in a centrally You want to be in a in a in a centrally as centrally as you can, as centrally as centrally as you can, as centrally as centrally as you can, as centrally located as you can, and and not next to located as you can, and and not next to located as you can, and and not next to a railroad track, uh, or any industry or a railroad track, uh, or any industry or a railroad track, uh, or any industry or warehouses where there's going to be warehouses where there's going to be warehouses where there's going to be trucks, uh, just for safety concerns, trucks, uh, just for safety concerns, trucks, uh, just for safety concerns, for the curbside appeal. Uh and so for the curbside appeal. Uh and so for the curbside appeal. Uh and so that's why public libraries or uh where that's why public libraries or uh where that's why public libraries or uh where we actually launched the camp uh started we actually launched the camp uh started we actually launched the camp uh started campuses was at a public library campuses was at a public library campuses was at a public library acoustic site because we couldn't be so acoustic site because we couldn't be so acoustic site because we couldn't be so loud. loud. loud. >> Um so all of those facility concerns are >> Um so all of those facility concerns are >> Um so all of those facility concerns are are really things you want to keep in are really things you want to keep in are really things you want to keep in mind. mind. mind. >> Yeah, I love that. I love the idea of >> Yeah, I love that. I love the idea of >> Yeah, I love that. I love the idea of the rental on the front end. What a the rental on the front end. What a the rental on the front end. What a great way to it's good use of capital.

great way to it's good use of capital. great way to it's good use of capital. It's a good um you know it gives you a It's a good um you know it gives you a It's a good um you know it gives you a chance to test even if you stay for a chance to test even if you stay for a chance to test even if you stay for a couple years. That's you know that's couple years. That's you know that's couple years. That's you know that's fantastic. So, you've been through fantastic. So, you've been through fantastic. So, you've been through multiple, you know, capital campaigns, multiple, you know, capital campaigns, multiple, you know, capital campaigns, this whole process of like we got to this whole process of like we got to this whole process of like we got to raise money and then get a facility raise money and then get a facility raise money and then get a facility renovated or, you know, you know, expand renovated or, you know, you know, expand renovated or, you know, you know, expand it or whatever. What What do you wish it or whatever. What What do you wish it or whatever. What What do you wish you would have known before all that? you would have known before all that? you would have known before all that? Are there a couple like things that Are there a couple like things that Are there a couple like things that either, you know, you stumbled upon, you either, you know, you stumbled upon, you either, you know, you stumbled upon, you stubbed your toe, or you wish, man, I stubbed your toe, or you wish, man, I stubbed your toe, or you wish, man, I wish somebody would have told me this. wish somebody would have told me this. wish somebody would have told me this. Uh, are there any things that stand out Uh, are there any things that stand out Uh, are there any things that stand out to you? to you? to you? >> Uh, number I think the first one is >> Uh, number I think the first one is >> Uh, number I think the first one is this. You have an you have a number in this. You have an you have a number in this. You have an you have a number in your mind. Uh and you of course you your mind. Uh and you of course you your mind. Uh and you of course you believe God for it believe God for it believe God for it >> and it's lower. It's going to come in >> and it's lower. It's going to come in >> and it's lower. It's going to come in lower every time lower every time lower every time >> it is every single unless God does a >> it is every single unless God does a >> it is every single unless God does a miracle which he is more than able to miracle which he is more than able to miracle which he is more than able to do. do. do. >> Uh it's going to come in lower. And so I >> Uh it's going to come in lower. And so I >> Uh it's going to come in lower. And so I think have think have think have >> have high anticipation but realistic >> have high anticipation but realistic >> have high anticipation but realistic expectations. expectations. expectations. >> Uh because most capital campaigns are >> Uh because most capital campaigns are >> Uh because most capital campaigns are campaigns that are above normal giving.

campaigns that are above normal giving. campaigns that are above normal giving. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Right. And so uh at least for us it's >> Right. And so uh at least for us it's >> Right. And so uh at least for us it's above normal giving. We encourage and we above normal giving. We encourage and we above normal giving. We encourage and we get people to give towards a specific get people to give towards a specific get people to give towards a specific capital campaign which is for a specific capital campaign which is for a specific capital campaign which is for a specific campus or specific project or what have campus or specific project or what have campus or specific project or what have you. Uh but you have this number in mind you. Uh but you have this number in mind you. Uh but you have this number in mind and then you can tend to early on it's and then you can tend to early on it's and then you can tend to early on it's not coming in yet or maybe you've done not coming in yet or maybe you've done not coming in yet or maybe you've done it for a year it for a year it for a year >> and you can get quickly discouraged >> and you can get quickly discouraged >> and you can get quickly discouraged especially with capital campaigns where especially with capital campaigns where especially with capital campaigns where you're like we're halfway through this you're like we're halfway through this you're like we're halfway through this thing and not even half has come in yet thing and not even half has come in yet thing and not even half has come in yet or what we thought would come in or what we thought would come in or what we thought would come in >> and so it's easy to get discouraged but >> and so it's easy to get discouraged but >> and so it's easy to get discouraged but that was a big thing is that number in that was a big thing is that number in that was a big thing is that number in your mind it's going to be lower and your mind it's going to be lower and your mind it's going to be lower and that's not a bad thing right that's not that's not a bad thing right that's not that's not a bad thing right that's not a bad thing people are giving to a or a bad thing people are giving to a or a bad thing people are giving to a or campaign above give of their normal campaign above give of their normal campaign above give of their normal giving uh sacrificially. They're giving giving uh sacrificially. They're giving giving uh sacrificially. They're giving by faith. They're giving with by faith. They're giving with by faith. They're giving with expectation. But at the same time, for expectation. But at the same time, for expectation. But at the same time, for those of us on the inside, right, those those of us on the inside, right, those those of us on the inside, right, those of us who are managing the resources and of us who are managing the resources and of us who are managing the resources and what what what >> uh have you, it's a it's about having a >> uh have you, it's a it's about having a >> uh have you, it's a it's about having a realistic expectation that realistic expectation that realistic expectation that >> we have the faith that God can do it.

>> we have the faith that God can do it. >> we have the faith that God can do it. But we're also going to budget ourselves But we're also going to budget ourselves But we're also going to budget ourselves knowing that it there's a a high knowing that it there's a a high knowing that it there's a a high probability, not impossible, there's a probability, not impossible, there's a probability, not impossible, there's a high probability that the number we had high probability that the number we had high probability that the number we had in mind is not going to be what comes in in mind is not going to be what comes in in mind is not going to be what comes in for the capital campaign. for the capital campaign. for the capital campaign. >> Let's talk about that that there. So >> Let's talk about that that there. So >> Let's talk about that that there. So there's an interesting um so I've seen there's an interesting um so I've seen there's an interesting um so I've seen that for sure in churches. There's an that for sure in churches. There's an that for sure in churches. There's an interesting um kind of tension that interesting um kind of tension that interesting um kind of tension that pulls in two different directions. one, pulls in two different directions. one, pulls in two different directions. one, you can have exactly what you're talking you can have exactly what you're talking you can have exactly what you're talking about, which is, you know, we thought we about, which is, you know, we thought we about, which is, you know, we thought we would go in, we we were hoping we would would go in, we we were hoping we would would go in, we we were hoping we would raise X and we raise something less than raise X and we raise something less than raise X and we raise something less than that. that. that. >> Um, but then the other part of it is we >> Um, but then the other part of it is we >> Um, but then the other part of it is we were hoping the project was going to were hoping the project was going to were hoping the project was going to cost X and it costs X plus, you know, cost X and it costs X plus, you know, cost X and it costs X plus, you know, it's costing us more than than we it's costing us more than than we it's costing us more than than we anticipated. How do you manage that anticipated. How do you manage that anticipated. How do you manage that tension? How have you been able to kind tension? How have you been able to kind tension? How have you been able to kind of navigate that? That's a that's a of navigate that? That's a that's a of navigate that? That's a that's a tough tension. Yeah, the longevity of tough tension. Yeah, the longevity of tough tension. Yeah, the longevity of the capital campaign is going to is not the capital campaign is going to is not the capital campaign is going to is not always going to be exactly match is not always going to be exactly match is not always going to be exactly match is not going rather to exactly match what the going rather to exactly match what the going rather to exactly match what the building construction cost was at the building construction cost was at the building construction cost was at the beginning.

beginning. beginning. >> Prices fluctuate and prices change. And >> Prices fluctuate and prices change. And >> Prices fluctuate and prices change. And so let's say you have let's use a rough so let's say you have let's use a rough so let's say you have let's use a rough even number a million dollar capital even number a million dollar capital even number a million dollar capital campaign for your church organization. campaign for your church organization. campaign for your church organization. >> Uh and the construction is going to cost >> Uh and the construction is going to cost >> Uh and the construction is going to cost I don't know $900 $950,000. Well, a I don't know $900 $950,000. Well, a I don't know $900 $950,000. Well, a million dollar should cover it. But by million dollar should cover it. But by million dollar should cover it. But by the time the million dollars or shortly the time the million dollars or shortly the time the million dollars or shortly or short of that comes in, well, your or short of that comes in, well, your or short of that comes in, well, your budget's now at 1.2 or 1.3. It's budget's now at 1.2 or 1.3. It's budget's now at 1.2 or 1.3. It's fluctuated. And so be uh what's fluctuated. And so be uh what's fluctuated. And so be uh what's congruent at the beginning can be really congruent at the beginning can be really congruent at the beginning can be really uh a little bit financially off by the uh a little bit financially off by the uh a little bit financially off by the time the can in other words, the time the can in other words, the time the can in other words, the timelines of the capital campaign and timelines of the capital campaign and timelines of the capital campaign and your building projects sometimes don't your building projects sometimes don't your building projects sometimes don't align perfectly. And we've run into that align perfectly. And we've run into that align perfectly. And we've run into that too where we've had to take from our too where we've had to take from our too where we've had to take from our operating budget a little bit or we've operating budget a little bit or we've operating budget a little bit or we've had to really emphasize a certain amount had to really emphasize a certain amount had to really emphasize a certain amount during the campaign because that's what during the campaign because that's what during the campaign because that's what needs to come in. Uh we've you know met needs to come in. Uh we've you know met needs to come in. Uh we've you know met with with key givers and donors of the with with key givers and donors of the with with key givers and donors of the church church church >> and those are challenges that you >> and those are challenges that you >> and those are challenges that you navigate uh during the capital campaign navigate uh during the capital campaign navigate uh during the capital campaign process and and like I said earlier it's process and and like I said earlier it's process and and like I said earlier it's it's challenging because it's challenging because it's challenging because well let me backtrack and say this. This well let me backtrack and say this. This well let me backtrack and say this. This is why on the front end you should add is why on the front end you should add is why on the front end you should add margin into your capital campaign which margin into your capital campaign which margin into your capital campaign which is we didn't do that perhaps the first is we didn't do that perhaps the first is we didn't do that perhaps the first go around go around go around >> but certainly the later seasons we added >> but certainly the later seasons we added >> but certainly the later seasons we added margin in our capital campaigns to margin in our capital campaigns to margin in our capital campaigns to account for any fluctuation in account for any fluctuation in account for any fluctuation in construction costs. And if there was construction costs. And if there was construction costs. And if there was ever a a surplus, well, we would tell ever a a surplus, well, we would tell ever a a surplus, well, we would tell the church it's because of your giving

the church it's because of your giving the church it's because of your giving and because of your support and and because of your support and and because of your support and generosity that we had more than enough generosity that we had more than enough generosity that we had more than enough come in. and now we're going to use come in. and now we're going to use come in. and now we're going to use those funds for X or they're going to go those funds for X or they're going to go those funds for X or they're going to go back to the general fund or back to the general fund or back to the general fund or >> or whatever the case. But I think that >> or whatever the case. But I think that >> or whatever the case. But I think that the key there would be to incorporate the key there would be to incorporate the key there would be to incorporate some 10 to 15% margin in your capital some 10 to 15% margin in your capital some 10 to 15% margin in your capital campaign on the outset campaign on the outset campaign on the outset >> to account for anything that might >> to account for anything that might >> to account for anything that might happen 12, 15, 18 months down the road. happen 12, 15, 18 months down the road. happen 12, 15, 18 months down the road. >> Yeah, that's good. That's really good. >> Yeah, that's good. That's really good. >> Yeah, that's good. That's really good. That's good. Uh you maybe just save That's good. Uh you maybe just save That's good. Uh you maybe just save somebody a lot of headache two two years somebody a lot of headache two two years somebody a lot of headache two two years from now because of that part of the from now because of that part of the from now because of that part of the conversation. I want to go back to conversation. I want to go back to conversation. I want to go back to something you talked about earlier. Um something you talked about earlier. Um something you talked about earlier. Um you you've had multiple buildings that you you've had multiple buildings that you you've had multiple buildings that you've acquired or you've merged with you've acquired or you've merged with you've acquired or you've merged with and you were talking about remodeling and you were talking about remodeling and you were talking about remodeling and there's like that can be a blessing and there's like that can be a blessing and there's like that can be a blessing and a curse. Like it can be amazing like and a curse. Like it can be amazing like and a curse. Like it can be amazing like wow this is great and um you know you wow this is great and um you know you wow this is great and um you know you open up you open up a wall and who knows open up you open up a wall and who knows open up you open up a wall and who knows what's behind that wall and you know what's behind that wall and you know what's behind that wall and you know there's all that and you talked about there's all that and you talked about there's all that and you talked about bringing it up to the cross standard. bringing it up to the cross standard. bringing it up to the cross standard. Talk me through what how have you Talk me through what how have you Talk me through what how have you decided what that is? what is the cross decided what that is? what is the cross decided what that is? what is the cross standard and how do you what are the standard and how do you what are the standard and how do you what are the common things that you find oh we've got common things that you find oh we've got common things that you find oh we've got to make this change and how have you um to make this change and how have you um to make this change and how have you um kind of defined that as you think about kind of defined that as you think about kind of defined that as you think about projects like that?

projects like that? projects like that? >> Yeah. So um over the last few years >> Yeah. So um over the last few years >> Yeah. So um over the last few years we've pretty much honed in on I guess we've pretty much honed in on I guess we've pretty much honed in on I guess the vibe and the look of what we want the vibe and the look of what we want the vibe and the look of what we want our campuses uh to to feel and look our campuses uh to to feel and look our campuses uh to to feel and look like. like. like. >> They may be different uh floor plans >> They may be different uh floor plans >> They may be different uh floor plans because some of them we built, some of because some of them we built, some of because some of them we built, some of them we acquired properties we took them we acquired properties we took them we acquired properties we took over. Um, but as far as color schemes, over. Um, but as far as color schemes, over. Um, but as far as color schemes, uh, we do our very best to match wall uh, we do our very best to match wall uh, we do our very best to match wall colors, sanctuary colors, uh, we use the colors, sanctuary colors, uh, we use the colors, sanctuary colors, uh, we use the same stage equipment. Uh, uh, both same stage equipment. Uh, uh, both same stage equipment. Uh, uh, both branding and layout as best as possible branding and layout as best as possible branding and layout as best as possible across all of our sanctuary uh, across all of our sanctuary uh, across all of our sanctuary uh, auditoriums, our stages. Uh, our kids auditoriums, our stages. Uh, our kids auditoriums, our stages. Uh, our kids spaces, uh, we have an internal ratio of spaces, uh, we have an internal ratio of spaces, uh, we have an internal ratio of how many uh, teachers or volunteers per how many uh, teachers or volunteers per how many uh, teachers or volunteers per uh, uh, infants, per toddlers, uh, for uh, uh, infants, per toddlers, uh, for uh, uh, infants, per toddlers, uh, for school age children we want. And so that school age children we want. And so that school age children we want. And so that determines our spacing. And so sometimes determines our spacing. And so sometimes determines our spacing. And so sometimes we've got to knock some walls down or we've got to knock some walls down or we've got to knock some walls down or build some walls in to accommodate for build some walls in to accommodate for build some walls in to accommodate for for what, like I said, our standard of for what, like I said, our standard of for what, like I said, our standard of ministry, both in appeal, but also in ministry, both in appeal, but also in ministry, both in appeal, but also in care, uh, for for our congregants and care, uh, for for our congregants and care, uh, for for our congregants and for our families. And so, uh, when we for our families. And so, uh, when we for our families. And so, uh, when we remodel, you're right, there's some remodel, you're right, there's some remodel, you're right, there's some things that once you knock down a wall, things that once you knock down a wall, things that once you knock down a wall, you're not going to know until you knock you're not going to know until you knock you're not going to know until you knock it down. And that's where that, you it down. And that's where that, you it down. And that's where that, you know, that margin comes in. Uh but for know, that margin comes in. Uh but for know, that margin comes in. Uh but for the most part, right, we've had we do the most part, right, we've had we do the most part, right, we've had we do inspections, we get we get thirdparty inspections, we get we get thirdparty inspections, we get we get thirdparty opinions on the building, on the cost opinions on the building, on the cost opinions on the building, on the cost estimates, and like we would encourage estimates, and like we would encourage estimates, and like we would encourage anybody to do, right? Um but that's our anybody to do, right? Um but that's our anybody to do, right? Um but that's our cross standard is the look, the feel, cross standard is the look, the feel, cross standard is the look, the feel, the equipment, the wall colors, you the equipment, the wall colors, you the equipment, the wall colors, you know, uh is there enough space for our know, uh is there enough space for our know, uh is there enough space for our our guest uh connect area, our next

our guest uh connect area, our next our guest uh connect area, our next steps area for first impressions? Does steps area for first impressions? Does steps area for first impressions? Does every ministry have adequate space to every ministry have adequate space to every ministry have adequate space to store their items? All of those factors store their items? All of those factors store their items? All of those factors come into play in deciding how we're come into play in deciding how we're come into play in deciding how we're going to remodel a facility. And I'll going to remodel a facility. And I'll going to remodel a facility. And I'll say the second thing is this is why say the second thing is this is why say the second thing is this is why before you break or before you knock before you break or before you knock before you break or before you knock down a wall, uh get uh an inspector or down a wall, uh get uh an inspector or down a wall, uh get uh an inspector or or get some people either in your church or get some people either in your church or get some people either in your church or in the construction industry or or in the construction industry or or in the construction industry or somebody that you know in the in your somebody that you know in the in your somebody that you know in the in your community because community because community because sometimes when you have a building, your sometimes when you have a building, your sometimes when you have a building, your initial thought is to remodel. that may initial thought is to remodel. that may initial thought is to remodel. that may not always be the most financial uh not always be the most financial uh not always be the most financial uh financially wise decision. And here's financially wise decision. And here's financially wise decision. And here's why. why. why. >> Um because you may not know all that >> Um because you may not know all that >> Um because you may not know all that you're going to encounter. You may in you're going to encounter. You may in you're going to encounter. You may in the long run end up spending just as the long run end up spending just as the long run end up spending just as much as if you had built a brand new much as if you had built a brand new much as if you had built a brand new facility with the exact floor plan you facility with the exact floor plan you facility with the exact floor plan you want. And so that's where evaluating and want. And so that's where evaluating and want. And so that's where evaluating and deciding, is it more feasible to remodel deciding, is it more feasible to remodel deciding, is it more feasible to remodel this building for x amount of dollars or this building for x amount of dollars or this building for x amount of dollars or are we within a 5 to 10% budget margin are we within a 5 to 10% budget margin are we within a 5 to 10% budget margin where we might just say it's it's in the where we might just say it's it's in the where we might just say it's it's in the best interest of the church perhaps to best interest of the church perhaps to best interest of the church perhaps to use either this facility as collateral use either this facility as collateral use either this facility as collateral for our next building or a brand new for our next building or a brand new for our next building or a brand new building or is it better to use as a building or is it better to use as a building or is it better to use as a multi-sight building, excuse me, multi-sight building, excuse me, multi-sight building, excuse me, multi-purpose building and we end up multi-purpose building and we end up multi-purpose building and we end up building a new facility uh for the building a new facility uh for the building a new facility uh for the church or for the campus. And so those church or for the campus. And so those church or for the campus. And so those cost estimates are going to help you cost estimates are going to help you cost estimates are going to help you make the best, most informed decision of make the best, most informed decision of make the best, most informed decision of where you're going to steward the where you're going to steward the where you're going to steward the resources financially in either

resources financially in either resources financially in either remodeling or in building a site. remodeling or in building a site. remodeling or in building a site. >> Yeah, I love that. One of my favorite >> Yeah, I love that. One of my favorite >> Yeah, I love that. One of my favorite churches, Mercy Hill Church in North churches, Mercy Hill Church in North churches, Mercy Hill Church in North Carolina, they uh they had a building Carolina, they uh they had a building Carolina, they uh they had a building that was given to them and they did uh that was given to them and they did uh that was given to them and they did uh they, they, they, you know, weren't entirely sure what to you know, weren't entirely sure what to you know, weren't entirely sure what to kind of it was in a part of town. They kind of it was in a part of town. They kind of it was in a part of town. They weren't necessarily sure they wanted to weren't necessarily sure they wanted to weren't necessarily sure they wanted to launch a campus and just they had a launch a campus and just they had a launch a campus and just they had a campus closer and all that. they ended campus closer and all that. they ended campus closer and all that. they ended up using it, turned it into a really a up using it, turned it into a really a up using it, turned it into a really a student center and it's a fantastic student center and it's a fantastic student center and it's a fantastic ministry building and it's active, you ministry building and it's active, you ministry building and it's active, you know, five, six days a week. Now, it know, five, six days a week. Now, it know, five, six days a week. Now, it they don't do Sunday morning services they don't do Sunday morning services they don't do Sunday morning services there, but they do all kinds of other there, but they do all kinds of other there, but they do all kinds of other stuff which is fantastic. Like it's a stuff which is fantastic. Like it's a stuff which is fantastic. Like it's a great great great >> Yeah, they use it for leadership >> Yeah, they use it for leadership >> Yeah, they use it for leadership meetings, for small chapel receptions or meetings, for small chapel receptions or meetings, for small chapel receptions or gatherings or nextgen events, youth, gatherings or nextgen events, youth, gatherings or nextgen events, youth, young adults. uh even renting it out to young adults. uh even renting it out to young adults. uh even renting it out to the community as a means to supply the community as a means to supply the community as a means to supply income income income >> uh the church dayare find it you know >> uh the church dayare find it you know >> uh the church dayare find it you know align organizations of course uh align organizations of course uh align organizations of course uh whatever your church policy is but yeah whatever your church policy is but yeah whatever your church policy is but yeah sometimes the best use of that building sometimes the best use of that building sometimes the best use of that building is not for church services is not for church services is not for church services >> have you have you run into facilities >> have you have you run into facilities >> have you have you run into facilities that you've evaluated and then decided that you've evaluated and then decided that you've evaluated and then decided no like this is going to cost way too no like this is going to cost way too no like this is going to cost way too much to renovate and we're so we won't much to renovate and we're so we won't much to renovate and we're so we won't go forward with it have you run into go forward with it have you run into go forward with it have you run into that after evaluation that after evaluation that after evaluation >> well not not entirely But I'll I'll say >> well not not entirely But I'll I'll say >> well not not entirely But I'll I'll say this risk this risk this risk >> and that risk is there for sure.

>> and that risk is there for sure. >> and that risk is there for sure. >> Yeah, there is risk. There is risk and >> Yeah, there is risk. There is risk and >> Yeah, there is risk. There is risk and the risk assessment is different when the risk assessment is different when the risk assessment is different when you're leasing a space or rem when you're leasing a space or rem when you're leasing a space or rem when you're when you're obviously building you're when you're obviously building you're when you're obviously building your own facility as far as including your own facility as far as including your own facility as far as including the costs associated with that. one of the costs associated with that. one of the costs associated with that. one of our campuses recently and I mean in the our campuses recently and I mean in the our campuses recently and I mean in the last 24 months before we moved into our last 24 months before we moved into our last 24 months before we moved into our new building was leasing a space and we new building was leasing a space and we new building was leasing a space and we were given the option to remodel the were given the option to remodel the were given the option to remodel the space we were leasing space we were leasing space we were leasing >> because though it was it was it was >> because though it was it was it was >> because though it was it was it was suitable for what we needed for the suitable for what we needed for the suitable for what we needed for the ministry for the Sunday services and and ministry for the Sunday services and and ministry for the Sunday services and and all the other ministries um parts of it all the other ministries um parts of it all the other ministries um parts of it were not really conducive to growth for were not really conducive to growth for were not really conducive to growth for the congregation and for the for the the congregation and for the for the the congregation and for the for the ministry. So, we did contemplate ministry. So, we did contemplate ministry. So, we did contemplate uh remodeling. I think I think what kept uh remodeling. I think I think what kept uh remodeling. I think I think what kept us from doing that, number one, is us from doing that, number one, is us from doing that, number one, is whatever you remodel for the landlord, whatever you remodel for the landlord, whatever you remodel for the landlord, the landlord is going to end up keeping. the landlord is going to end up keeping. the landlord is going to end up keeping. And so, the return on that investment And so, the return on that investment And so, the return on that investment would be short-term and not long-term. would be short-term and not long-term. would be short-term and not long-term. >> Uh we were already in the midst of >> Uh we were already in the midst of >> Uh we were already in the midst of building our building, but we were building our building, but we were building our building, but we were growing at a rapid rate. And so, we were growing at a rapid rate. And so, we were growing at a rapid rate. And so, we were 8 12 months out from from being in our 8 12 months out from from being in our 8 12 months out from from being in our building, and the campus was growing.

building, and the campus was growing. building, and the campus was growing. And so, we needed a short-term solution. And so, we needed a short-term solution. And so, we needed a short-term solution. So, we did think, well, we'll spend x So, we did think, well, we'll spend x So, we did think, well, we'll spend x amount of dollars to remodel our site amount of dollars to remodel our site amount of dollars to remodel our site where we're leasing before we get it to where we're leasing before we get it to where we're leasing before we get it to the new building, but uh we found out the new building, but uh we found out the new building, but uh we found out that shifting our service times and and that shifting our service times and and that shifting our service times and and doing different different strategies doing different different strategies doing different different strategies ended up alleviating in the short term u ended up alleviating in the short term u ended up alleviating in the short term u the constraints we had to give us a time the constraints we had to give us a time the constraints we had to give us a time to get into our new building, which is to get into our new building, which is to get into our new building, which is now uh more than enough space for us to now uh more than enough space for us to now uh more than enough space for us to grow for for years and years to come. grow for for years and years to come. grow for for years and years to come. >> Right. That's cool. Yeah, I because I've >> Right. That's cool. Yeah, I because I've >> Right. That's cool. Yeah, I because I've said as a I feel like I've been in a ton said as a I feel like I've been in a ton said as a I feel like I've been in a ton of conversations with XPS where you know of conversations with XPS where you know of conversations with XPS where you know they're talking about this issue and you they're talking about this issue and you they're talking about this issue and you know there's like a building that know there's like a building that know there's like a building that they're maybe it's another church that's they're maybe it's another church that's they're maybe it's another church that's come to them and they're having a come to them and they're having a come to them and they're having a conversation and they're I would say conversation and they're I would say conversation and they're I would say their mindset is like I'm not sure we their mindset is like I'm not sure we their mindset is like I'm not sure we should do this like this is they're like should do this like this is they're like should do this like this is they're like this other church came to us and this other church came to us and this other church came to us and statistically actually the most likely statistically actually the most likely statistically actually the most likely uh for these mergers to succeed are when uh for these mergers to succeed are when uh for these mergers to succeed are when the joining church comes to the lead the joining church comes to the lead the joining church comes to the lead church. So, they would come to your church. So, they would come to your church. So, they would come to your church and be like, "Hey, we're church and be like, "Hey, we're church and be like, "Hey, we're interested." So, it actually happens a interested." So, it actually happens a interested." So, it actually happens a fair amount. And I've I feel like I've fair amount. And I've I feel like I've fair amount. And I've I feel like I've talked tried to talk so many executive talked tried to talk so many executive talked tried to talk so many executive pastors into like, pastors into like, pastors into like, >> man, it's got to be a really bad >> man, it's got to be a really bad >> man, it's got to be a really bad building if particularly if it's like building if particularly if it's like building if particularly if it's like has debt or has no debt or very little has debt or has no debt or very little has debt or has no debt or very little debt on it. It's got to be a very bad debt on it. It's got to be a very bad debt on it. It's got to be a very bad building to not want to take it because building to not want to take it because building to not want to take it because it's like, you know, you can you can it's like, you know, you can you can it's like, you know, you can you can take invest, you know, a moderate amount take invest, you know, a moderate amount take invest, you know, a moderate amount of money. you don't need to dump a ton of money. you don't need to dump a ton of money. you don't need to dump a ton into it and get something great and like into it and get something great and like into it and get something great and like you said, you said, you said, >> as long as you're above board with

>> as long as you're above board with >> as long as you're above board with everybody, you know, five years from everybody, you know, five years from everybody, you know, five years from now, if it doesn't work, you could take now, if it doesn't work, you could take now, if it doesn't work, you could take that asset, sell it, and move on and use that asset, sell it, and move on and use that asset, sell it, and move on and use those resources somewhere else. That's those resources somewhere else. That's those resources somewhere else. That's and that's very good because when you and that's very good because when you and that's very good because when you talk about acquiring a ministry, talk about acquiring a ministry, talk about acquiring a ministry, especially if it has a low balance on especially if it has a low balance on especially if it has a low balance on their mortgage or or they don't have their mortgage or or they don't have their mortgage or or they don't have much to pay off their building, uh, and much to pay off their building, uh, and much to pay off their building, uh, and if you're in a position to pay that off if you're in a position to pay that off if you're in a position to pay that off within the first year of acquiring the within the first year of acquiring the within the first year of acquiring the ministry, uh, think of the collateral ministry, uh, think of the collateral ministry, uh, think of the collateral and the equity that your organization and the equity that your organization and the equity that your organization now has because of that new facility now has because of that new facility now has because of that new facility that's in your portfolio. And I know it that's in your portfolio. And I know it that's in your portfolio. And I know it sounds very businessminded, but when sounds very businessminded, but when sounds very businessminded, but when you're looking to expand into the you're looking to expand into the you're looking to expand into the future, even at another site uh in your future, even at another site uh in your future, even at another site uh in your church ministry organization, you now church ministry organization, you now church ministry organization, you now have more collateral, more resources to have more collateral, more resources to have more collateral, more resources to leverage for a better financial position leverage for a better financial position leverage for a better financial position in the future when you do want to in the future when you do want to in the future when you do want to actually build a building. The second actually build a building. The second actually build a building. The second thing is this, if you're acquiring a thing is this, if you're acquiring a thing is this, if you're acquiring a ministry that already has an existing ministry that already has an existing ministry that already has an existing building, in most cases, it's already building, in most cases, it's already building, in most cases, it's already built out for church purposes. built out for church purposes. built out for church purposes. >> So that's very helpful. So at that >> So that's very helpful. So at that >> So that's very helpful. So at that point, you may be putting in a smaller point, you may be putting in a smaller point, you may be putting in a smaller amount in just, you know, refurbishing amount in just, you know, refurbishing amount in just, you know, refurbishing it, painting the walls, putting some new it, painting the walls, putting some new it, painting the walls, putting some new equipment, some new screens, equipment, some new screens, equipment, some new screens, >> maybe changing out the flooring a little >> maybe changing out the flooring a little >> maybe changing out the flooring a little bit or some of the fixtures bit or some of the fixtures bit or some of the fixtures because it's already built out for a because it's already built out for a because it's already built out for a church. And so church. And so church. And so >> that's the benefit of going or acquiring >> that's the benefit of going or acquiring >> that's the benefit of going or acquiring a ministry if you're going that route a ministry if you're going that route a ministry if you're going that route that already has an existing facility.

that already has an existing facility. that already has an existing facility. Yeah, we had uh we were running our Yeah, we had uh we were running our Yeah, we had uh we were running our budget was about $8 million and we were budget was about $8 million and we were budget was about $8 million and we were um we had a church come to us and they um we had a church come to us and they um we had a church come to us and they were they had had really they had had a were they had had really they had had a were they had had really they had had a tough season and um the summer before we tough season and um the summer before we tough season and um the summer before we ended up merging with them or they ended up merging with them or they ended up merging with them or they joined us really. Um they had multiple joined us really. Um they had multiple joined us really. Um they had multiple Sundays where they had two people show Sundays where they had two people show Sundays where they had two people show up on Sunday. They had the person that up on Sunday. They had the person that up on Sunday. They had the person that was preaching and the guy that was was preaching and the guy that was was preaching and the guy that was opening the door. Like it was it had opening the door. Like it was it had opening the door. Like it was it had really atrophied down. And I remember in really atrophied down. And I remember in really atrophied down. And I remember in one of those conversations, they had had one of those conversations, they had had one of those conversations, they had had a bit of a roof problem. The the a bit of a roof problem. The the a bit of a roof problem. The the facility was worth just probably south facility was worth just probably south facility was worth just probably south of 2 million. It was like a a great of 2 million. It was like a a great of 2 million. It was like a a great facility, facility, facility, >> but they had a roof problem. And I >> but they had a roof problem. And I >> but they had a roof problem. And I remember one of the the elders leader remember one of the the elders leader remember one of the the elders leader person, he said, you know, we we got a person, he said, you know, we we got a person, he said, you know, we we got a quote on the roof and it's it's going to quote on the roof and it's it's going to quote on the roof and it's it's going to cost maybe about $15,000 to fix. Do you cost maybe about $15,000 to fix. Do you cost maybe about $15,000 to fix. Do you think you guys will be able to fix that? think you guys will be able to fix that? think you guys will be able to fix that? and they had no debt and were going to and they had no debt and were going to and they had no debt and were going to give us their building. Well, like I give us their building. Well, like I give us their building. Well, like I humbly had to say like like yeah, we humbly had to say like like yeah, we humbly had to say like like yeah, we we'll be okay. Like it's gonna it's we'll be okay. Like it's gonna it's we'll be okay. Like it's gonna it's going to be fine. Like, you know, we I going to be fine. Like, you know, we I going to be fine. Like, you know, we I what I didn't want to say is like I feel what I didn't want to say is like I feel what I didn't want to say is like I feel like our youth guys have like wasted like our youth guys have like wasted like our youth guys have like wasted $15,000 this year. Like, you know, like $15,000 this year. Like, you know, like $15,000 this year. Like, you know, like it's like we can, you know, the exchange it's like we can, you know, the exchange it's like we can, you know, the exchange just on paper. And again, that's not why just on paper. And again, that's not why just on paper. And again, that's not why you go into those conversations. But a you go into those conversations. But a you go into those conversations. But a part of that is particularly in our part of that is particularly in our part of that is particularly in our seats as executive pastors. That's a seats as executive pastors. That's a seats as executive pastors. That's a part of what we have to wrestle through part of what we have to wrestle through part of what we have to wrestle through and think about those things when so and think about those things when so and think about those things when so let's get back to the renovation thing.

let's get back to the renovation thing. let's get back to the renovation thing. A lot of what churches were talking A lot of what churches were talking A lot of what churches were talking about is like pressure of like man I about is like pressure of like man I about is like pressure of like man I just our physical facilities are are just our physical facilities are are just our physical facilities are are holding us back. any other thoughts holding us back. any other thoughts holding us back. any other thoughts around, you know, changes you've made to around, you know, changes you've made to around, you know, changes you've made to increase capacity or um, you know, increase capacity or um, you know, increase capacity or um, you know, things that maybe are like some things that maybe are like some things that maybe are like some lowhanging fruit or creative solutions lowhanging fruit or creative solutions lowhanging fruit or creative solutions that have that that maybe we're not that have that that maybe we're not that have that that maybe we're not thinking about, but as a leader who's thinking about, but as a leader who's thinking about, but as a leader who's been through this, you know, you've been been through this, you know, you've been been through this, you know, you've been you've wrestled through that that we we you've wrestled through that that we we you've wrestled through that that we we could, you know, benefit from. could, you know, benefit from. could, you know, benefit from. >> Yeah, absolutely. A couple of things. >> Yeah, absolutely. A couple of things. >> Yeah, absolutely. A couple of things. You can't please everybody, You can't please everybody, You can't please everybody, >> right? I think one of the one of the >> right? I think one of the one of the >> right? I think one of the one of the ministry pressures is well, we want to ministry pressures is well, we want to ministry pressures is well, we want to please the next gen. We also want to please the next gen. We also want to please the next gen. We also want to please the child care. We also want to please the child care. We also want to please the child care. We also want to please the elders of the church and we please the elders of the church and we please the elders of the church and we also want to please the younger families also want to please the younger families also want to please the younger families of the church and young professionals. of the church and young professionals. of the church and young professionals. And when you're when you're in a And when you're when you're in a And when you're when you're in a facility that wasn't originally built facility that wasn't originally built facility that wasn't originally built according to your specs, it's going to according to your specs, it's going to according to your specs, it's going to be difficult to do that. And so you have be difficult to do that. And so you have be difficult to do that. And so you have to focus as we have on the most critical to focus as we have on the most critical to focus as we have on the most critical areas, sanctuary and child care. Um if areas, sanctuary and child care. Um if areas, sanctuary and child care. Um if you don't have child care, it's going to you don't have child care, it's going to you don't have child care, it's going to be a barrier to growth because families be a barrier to growth because families be a barrier to growth because families or parents are not going to have the or parents are not going to have the or parents are not going to have the comfort level they need to come to your comfort level they need to come to your comfort level they need to come to your church on a regular basis. uh and to be church on a regular basis. uh and to be church on a regular basis. uh and to be a part of the community. And so for us a part of the community. And so for us a part of the community. And so for us when we've remodeled the first things we when we've remodeled the first things we when we've remodeled the first things we look at are sanctuary and then kids look at are sanctuary and then kids look at are sanctuary and then kids space. Do we have enough space? Some of space. Do we have enough space? Some of space. Do we have enough space? Some of the solutions when we've been limited in the solutions when we've been limited in the solutions when we've been limited in space is is launching multiple services space is is launching multiple services space is is launching multiple services um to uh we have a smaller sanctuary or um to uh we have a smaller sanctuary or um to uh we have a smaller sanctuary or smaller space. We'll offer more service smaller space. We'll offer more service smaller space. We'll offer more service opportunities. or when it comes to our opportunities. or when it comes to our opportunities. or when it comes to our kids ministry, uh we've evaluated with

kids ministry, uh we've evaluated with kids ministry, uh we've evaluated with our kids directors and our our kids our kids directors and our our kids our kids directors and our our kids department of how can we best merge age department of how can we best merge age department of how can we best merge age groups to maximize the space that we groups to maximize the space that we groups to maximize the space that we have. So if you have right a an ideal have. So if you have right a an ideal have. So if you have right a an ideal facility where you have you know uh your facility where you have you know uh your facility where you have you know uh your child your child care divided by grade child your child care divided by grade child your child care divided by grade level or age level uh sometimes you have level or age level uh sometimes you have level or age level uh sometimes you have the amenity to do that and many times the amenity to do that and many times the amenity to do that and many times you don't. And so what we've done you don't. And so what we've done you don't. And so what we've done >> is instead of having first grade on >> is instead of having first grade on >> is instead of having first grade on their own, maybe we'll put, you know, their own, maybe we'll put, you know, their own, maybe we'll put, you know, kindergarten and first grade level kids kindergarten and first grade level kids kindergarten and first grade level kids together. together. together. >> Yeah, that's good. >> Yeah, that's good. >> Yeah, that's good. >> Second and third together, fourth and >> Second and third together, fourth and >> Second and third together, fourth and fifth together, um, as a way to fifth together, um, as a way to fifth together, um, as a way to consolidate because we don't have the consolidate because we don't have the consolidate because we don't have the space that we prefer to have at least in space that we prefer to have at least in space that we prefer to have at least in this season. And so for us sometimes this season. And so for us sometimes this season. And so for us sometimes you're not watering down in essence the you're not watering down in essence the you're not watering down in essence the content the quality but you are content the quality but you are content the quality but you are consolidating in the short term or even consolidating in the short term or even consolidating in the short term or even medium-term if you will if that's even a medium-term if you will if that's even a medium-term if you will if that's even a term term term >> uh to make adequate space for the >> uh to make adequate space for the >> uh to make adequate space for the constraints that you may have. constraints that you may have. constraints that you may have. >> And so you have 600 members and you only >> And so you have 600 members and you only >> And so you have 600 members and you only have a 200 seat sanctuary or 250. Well have a 200 seat sanctuary or 250. Well have a 200 seat sanctuary or 250. Well that's an opportunity for three that's an opportunity for three that's an opportunity for three services. Uh is that is that is that is services. Uh is that is that is that is services. Uh is that is that is that is that a strain? it. Well, it can be if that a strain? it. Well, it can be if that a strain? it. Well, it can be if you see it from a a a core perspective you see it from a a a core perspective you see it from a a a core perspective versus a perspective of man, we're so versus a perspective of man, we're so versus a perspective of man, we're so large and we have the space. You know, large and we have the space. You know, large and we have the space. You know, one of our core values at our church is one of our core values at our church is one of our core values at our church is excellence. And we've defined excellence excellence. And we've defined excellence excellence. And we've defined excellence as not having the best, but doing the as not having the best, but doing the as not having the best, but doing the best with what you have.

best with what you have. best with what you have. >> We may not have a thousand seat >> We may not have a thousand seat >> We may not have a thousand seat auditorium for this growing auditorium for this growing auditorium for this growing congregation, but what we do have, we're congregation, but what we do have, we're congregation, but what we do have, we're going to utilize it and steward it to going to utilize it and steward it to going to utilize it and steward it to our best ability. So if that means two our best ability. So if that means two our best ability. So if that means two or three services, well, God give us the or three services, well, God give us the or three services, well, God give us the strength and the people to manage and to strength and the people to manage and to strength and the people to manage and to lead and to execute three strong uh lead and to execute three strong uh lead and to execute three strong uh services every weekend or every Sunday services every weekend or every Sunday services every weekend or every Sunday in order to meet the need of the in order to meet the need of the in order to meet the need of the congregation that we have. And and I congregation that we have. And and I congregation that we have. And and I think one of the biggest things, Rich, think one of the biggest things, Rich, think one of the biggest things, Rich, is also communicating this. is also communicating this. is also communicating this. >> It's keeping the right. You're not going >> It's keeping the right. You're not going >> It's keeping the right. You're not going to go into all the details per se, to go into all the details per se, to go into all the details per se, unless that's your preference and that's unless that's your preference and that's unless that's your preference and that's your senior pastor's prerogative, but to your senior pastor's prerogative, but to your senior pastor's prerogative, but to share with them the overarching theme share with them the overarching theme share with them the overarching theme of, hey, here's where we're at as a of, hey, here's where we're at as a of, hey, here's where we're at as a ministry. Here's our facility, and ministry. Here's our facility, and ministry. Here's our facility, and here's what we're going to do to here's what we're going to do to here's what we're going to do to continue to offer as best a ministry as continue to offer as best a ministry as continue to offer as best a ministry as we can while at the same time being we can while at the same time being we can while at the same time being cognizant of the challenges that we're cognizant of the challenges that we're cognizant of the challenges that we're facing. facing. facing. >> I we've said this to our to our staff >> I we've said this to our to our staff >> I we've said this to our to our staff and to our to our church many times is and to our to our church many times is and to our to our church many times is we don't look at obstacles as negatives. we don't look at obstacles as negatives. we don't look at obstacles as negatives. We look at obstacles as as We look at obstacles as as We look at obstacles as as opportunities. Okay, opportunities. Okay, opportunities. Okay, >> that's so true. >> that's so true. >> that's so true. >> This is what we have. How can we be as >> This is what we have. How can we be as >> This is what we have. How can we be as excellent as possible with what we have?

excellent as possible with what we have? excellent as possible with what we have? If that means going to a third service, If that means going to a third service, If that means going to a third service, well, then we're going to give it a shot well, then we're going to give it a shot well, then we're going to give it a shot because what we don't want to do is because what we don't want to do is because what we don't want to do is allow facility constraints to translate allow facility constraints to translate allow facility constraints to translate into diminished capacity or into a a into diminished capacity or into a a into diminished capacity or into a a diminishing congregation. And I'm diminishing congregation. And I'm diminishing congregation. And I'm talking about numerically. Uh because a talking about numerically. Uh because a talking about numerically. Uh because a diminishing congregation numerically diminishing congregation numerically diminishing congregation numerically also means a diminishing budget. and also means a diminishing budget. and also means a diminishing budget. and revenue financially because you have revenue financially because you have revenue financially because you have less givers uh in the seats and that's less givers uh in the seats and that's less givers uh in the seats and that's those are some of the challenges that those are some of the challenges that those are some of the challenges that you got to navigate. So we don't see it you got to navigate. So we don't see it you got to navigate. So we don't see it as obstacles. We don't see obstacles as obstacles. We don't see obstacles as obstacles. We don't see obstacles necessarily as a challenge. We see it as necessarily as a challenge. We see it as necessarily as a challenge. We see it as an opportunity of okay, how can we an opportunity of okay, how can we an opportunity of okay, how can we navigate around this mountain, if you navigate around this mountain, if you navigate around this mountain, if you will, to continue to provide as will, to continue to provide as will, to continue to provide as excellent the ministry as we can. excellent the ministry as we can. excellent the ministry as we can. >> Yeah, I love that. I love your example >> Yeah, I love that. I love your example >> Yeah, I love that. I love your example of the kids age size rooms cuz I think of the kids age size rooms cuz I think of the kids age size rooms cuz I think you've you're articulating a tension you've you're articulating a tension you've you're articulating a tension that um whenever we're particularly if that um whenever we're particularly if that um whenever we're particularly if we're launching we talked a lot about we're launching we talked a lot about we're launching we talked a lot about this like renovating other spaces and this like renovating other spaces and this like renovating other spaces and new campuses and all that where I think new campuses and all that where I think new campuses and all that where I think really is gerine to our job as executive really is gerine to our job as executive really is gerine to our job as executive pastor to to manage this tension of we pastor to to manage this tension of we pastor to to manage this tension of we want it to feel you know the language want it to feel you know the language want it to feel you know the language you used was crossstandard it absolutely you used was crossstandard it absolutely you used was crossstandard it absolutely has got to be cross standard but there has got to be cross standard but there has got to be cross standard but there will be areas where we're going to have will be areas where we're going to have will be areas where we're going to have to compromise Like that is just true.

to compromise Like that is just true. to compromise Like that is just true. And a part of what we have to do, we And a part of what we have to do, we And a part of what we have to do, we have to use our leadership and our have to use our leadership and our have to use our leadership and our discernment and you know get the right discernment and you know get the right discernment and you know get the right players in the room and have the players in the room and have the players in the room and have the conversation and you know somebody using conversation and you know somebody using conversation and you know somebody using your example somebody in kids min be your example somebody in kids min be your example somebody in kids min be like no we can't combine them together like no we can't combine them together like no we can't combine them together that'll be terrible and it's like we're that'll be terrible and it's like we're that'll be terrible and it's like we're going to be fine like we'll figure it going to be fine like we'll figure it going to be fine like we'll figure it out you know. Um out you know. Um out you know. Um yeah it's going to be okay. We'll we'll yeah it's going to be okay. We'll we'll yeah it's going to be okay. We'll we'll help that navigate and that that's one help that navigate and that that's one help that navigate and that that's one example but there's a ton of those that example but there's a ton of those that example but there's a ton of those that can come up in these uh you know in can come up in these uh you know in can come up in these uh you know in these renovations for sure. Yeah, these renovations for sure. Yeah, these renovations for sure. Yeah, absolutely. And and people are always absolutely. And and people are always absolutely. And and people are always going to have opinions. Um but but I'll going to have opinions. Um but but I'll going to have opinions. Um but but I'll say this from experience and I I mean no say this from experience and I I mean no say this from experience and I I mean no ill uh intent towards anybody in your ill uh intent towards anybody in your ill uh intent towards anybody in your congregation or your ministry. Most of congregation or your ministry. Most of congregation or your ministry. Most of the people that are criticizing are not the people that are criticizing are not the people that are criticizing are not people that aren't giving anyway. Uh and people that aren't giving anyway. Uh and people that aren't giving anyway. Uh and so I'm not saying ignore them by any so I'm not saying ignore them by any so I'm not saying ignore them by any means. They're part of your part of your means. They're part of your part of your means. They're part of your part of your ecosystem. They're part of your church. ecosystem. They're part of your church. ecosystem. They're part of your church. They're part of your flock. They're part of your flock. They're part of your flock. >> That's very true. But yes, always with a >> That's very true. But yes, always with a >> That's very true. But yes, always with a grain of salt because the people that grain of salt because the people that grain of salt because the people that are really bought into your ministry are are really bought into your ministry are are really bought into your ministry are going to walk through those going to walk through those going to walk through those opportunities alongside you hopefully opportunities alongside you hopefully opportunities alongside you hopefully with the best attitude that they with the best attitude that they with the best attitude that they possibly can muster up possibly can muster up possibly can muster up >> because this too shall pass, >> because this too shall pass, >> because this too shall pass, >> right? If you've gone out in faith to >> right? If you've gone out in faith to >> right? If you've gone out in faith to plant or to grow or to expand your plant or to grow or to expand your plant or to grow or to expand your congregation, this is a temporary congregation, this is a temporary congregation, this is a temporary season. It's not a permanent season. You season. It's not a permanent season. You season. It's not a permanent season. You won't always be at three or four won't always be at three or four won't always be at three or four services, right? Or multiple services.

services, right? Or multiple services. services, right? Or multiple services. At some point, if God is in this and you At some point, if God is in this and you At some point, if God is in this and you really believe he is, and I believe he really believe he is, and I believe he really believe he is, and I believe he is for many organizations and is for many organizations and is for many organizations and ministries, ministries, ministries, >> uh the timing will be right when you >> uh the timing will be right when you >> uh the timing will be right when you have a facility that can house what you have a facility that can house what you have a facility that can house what you need or that can provide the amenities need or that can provide the amenities need or that can provide the amenities and space that you need. And so for and space that you need. And so for and space that you need. And so for parents, for givers, for guests, is just parents, for givers, for guests, is just parents, for givers, for guests, is just letting them know as best you can, even letting them know as best you can, even letting them know as best you can, even subtly with through announcements or subtly with through announcements or subtly with through announcements or even messages and say, "Hey, we're in a even messages and say, "Hey, we're in a even messages and say, "Hey, we're in a season of growth and expansion. Growth season of growth and expansion. Growth season of growth and expansion. Growth uh doesn't always look, you know, uh doesn't always look, you know, uh doesn't always look, you know, perfect." And so we have seasons where perfect." And so we have seasons where perfect." And so we have seasons where we're going to navigate some uh some we're going to navigate some uh some we're going to navigate some uh some challenges and opportunities as best we challenges and opportunities as best we challenges and opportunities as best we can to get us to an end goal. This is a can to get us to an end goal. This is a can to get us to an end goal. This is a means to an end. What we're going means to an end. What we're going means to an end. What we're going through is a means to get us to where we through is a means to get us to where we through is a means to get us to where we want to go as a ministry. And as long as want to go as a ministry. And as long as want to go as a ministry. And as long as you keep it at the forefront, tying it you keep it at the forefront, tying it you keep it at the forefront, tying it into the vision of the house, uh you're into the vision of the house, uh you're into the vision of the house, uh you're going to see that in a large sense, going to see that in a large sense, going to see that in a large sense, you're going to have people rally behind you're going to have people rally behind you're going to have people rally behind that idea uh and and unfocus, if you that idea uh and and unfocus, if you that idea uh and and unfocus, if you will, from the constraints of their of will, from the constraints of their of will, from the constraints of their of the facility to the broader appeal of the facility to the broader appeal of the facility to the broader appeal of what God is doing in the ministry.

what God is doing in the ministry. what God is doing in the ministry. >> Yeah, that is so good. Friends, you >> Yeah, that is so good. Friends, you >> Yeah, that is so good. Friends, you should go back and relist to what Eric should go back and relist to what Eric should go back and relist to what Eric just said there. That is some wise just said there. That is some wise just said there. That is some wise advice. And obviously from somebody advice. And obviously from somebody advice. And obviously from somebody that's been in the trenches a lot, that's been in the trenches a lot, that's been in the trenches a lot, that's been my experience as well. that's been my experience as well. that's been my experience as well. people, the complainers. I'm reading people, the complainers. I'm reading people, the complainers. I'm reading through the book of Job right now and through the book of Job right now and through the book of Job right now and I'm like, man, his friends are just I'm like, man, his friends are just I'm like, man, his friends are just like, "This guy needs better friends." like, "This guy needs better friends." like, "This guy needs better friends." And there that reminded me of the people And there that reminded me of the people And there that reminded me of the people you're talking about like, you're talking about like, you're talking about like, >> you know, there these people who are >> you know, there these people who are >> you know, there these people who are just, you know, sniping from the cheap just, you know, sniping from the cheap just, you know, sniping from the cheap seats and they're not really engaged in seats and they're not really engaged in seats and they're not really engaged in the mission where, man, those people the mission where, man, those people the mission where, man, those people that are right on in the middle of it, that are right on in the middle of it, that are right on in the middle of it, they're like, "Let's go. Let's lean in." they're like, "Let's go. Let's lean in." they're like, "Let's go. Let's lean in." And man, that's the kind of person I'm And man, that's the kind of person I'm And man, that's the kind of person I'm hoping as I transition into older age hoping as I transition into older age hoping as I transition into older age that I'm that person, you know, because that I'm that person, you know, because that I'm that person, you know, because I we have a number of those people at I we have a number of those people at I we have a number of those people at our church that I look at that are like, our church that I look at that are like, our church that I look at that are like, these are incredible saints who have these are incredible saints who have these are incredible saints who have seen so much change and who I'm sure seen so much change and who I'm sure seen so much change and who I'm sure lots of thing annoy them, but they're lots of thing annoy them, but they're lots of thing annoy them, but they're fired up for the mission. They're fired up for the mission. They're fired up for the mission. They're excited in our case to reach unchurched excited in our case to reach unchurched excited in our case to reach unchurched people to see people who far from Jesus people to see people who far from Jesus people to see people who far from Jesus connect, right? Absolutely. The fact connect, right? Absolutely. The fact connect, right? Absolutely. The fact that your ministry is facing that your ministry is facing that your ministry is facing opportunities opportunities opportunities uh or obstacles rather disguised as uh or obstacles rather disguised as uh or obstacles rather disguised as opportunities is proof positive you're opportunities is proof positive you're opportunities is proof positive you're going somewhere. You're not a stagnant going somewhere. You're not a stagnant going somewhere. You're not a stagnant ministry. You're not a you're not a lazy ministry. You're not a you're not a lazy ministry. You're not a you're not a lazy ministry, right? You're not apathetic.

ministry, right? You're not apathetic. ministry, right? You're not apathetic. You're really out to fulfill the vision You're really out to fulfill the vision You're really out to fulfill the vision that God has given you or to your senior that God has given you or to your senior that God has given you or to your senior leadership. Uh and so it's proof leadership. Uh and so it's proof leadership. Uh and so it's proof positive, right? And so take that as a positive, right? And so take that as a positive, right? And so take that as a badge of honor in some way to say badge of honor in some way to say badge of honor in some way to say >> we must be doing something right. >> we must be doing something right. >> we must be doing something right. >> So good. Well, Eric, just as we're >> So good. Well, Eric, just as we're >> So good. Well, Eric, just as we're coming to kind of land, this has been coming to kind of land, this has been coming to kind of land, this has been great conversation. and hopefully been great conversation. and hopefully been great conversation. and hopefully been helpful for you friends as you've have helpful for you friends as you've have helpful for you friends as you've have been listening in. Uh but as we kind of been listening in. Uh but as we kind of been listening in. Uh but as we kind of come to land today's uh conversation, come to land today's uh conversation, come to land today's uh conversation, what's a question or two that that what's a question or two that that what's a question or two that that you're kicking around for this year at you're kicking around for this year at you're kicking around for this year at at Cross as you're thinking about 2026? at Cross as you're thinking about 2026? at Cross as you're thinking about 2026? Where where's your head at? What are the Where where's your head at? What are the Where where's your head at? What are the things you're wondering? It doesn't have things you're wondering? It doesn't have things you're wondering? It doesn't have to be about this. It could be anything. to be about this. It could be anything. to be about this. It could be anything. >> Yeah. Well, uh thanks for letting me >> Yeah. Well, uh thanks for letting me >> Yeah. Well, uh thanks for letting me speak into that, uh Rich. I think for me speak into that, uh Rich. I think for me speak into that, uh Rich. I think for me as an executive and looking at our as an executive and looking at our as an executive and looking at our ministry, um, you know, looking at the ministry, um, you know, looking at the ministry, um, you know, looking at the previous 30 years and looking at the previous 30 years and looking at the previous 30 years and looking at the next decade, if you will, of where God next decade, if you will, of where God next decade, if you will, of where God is going to take our ministry, uh, being is going to take our ministry, uh, being is going to take our ministry, uh, being one of America's fastest growing one of America's fastest growing one of America's fastest growing churches, being the largest bilingual churches, being the largest bilingual churches, being the largest bilingual Hispanicled ministry in the country. Um, Hispanicled ministry in the country. Um, Hispanicled ministry in the country. Um, we've, you know, like I've said in a we've, you know, like I've said in a we've, you know, like I've said in a previous uh, episode with you, we previous uh, episode with you, we previous uh, episode with you, we haven't had any precedent for us in our haven't had any precedent for us in our haven't had any precedent for us in our context. And so we've navigated a lot of context. And so we've navigated a lot of context. And so we've navigated a lot of unchartered waters uh and learned from unchartered waters uh and learned from unchartered waters uh and learned from both both both >> wins and losses and and different >> wins and losses and and different >> wins and losses and and different opportunities and struggles to get us to opportunities and struggles to get us to opportunities and struggles to get us to where we're at now. I think one of the where we're at now. I think one of the where we're at now. I think one of the biggest questions facing the church at biggest questions facing the church at biggest questions facing the church at large in 2026 is how the church is going large in 2026 is how the church is going large in 2026 is how the church is going to respond to the ever increasingly to respond to the ever increasingly to respond to the ever increasingly fastpaced changes that we're seeing on fastpaced changes that we're seeing on fastpaced changes that we're seeing on the political front on the cultural the political front on the cultural the political front on the cultural front. I'm not saying that the church front. I'm not saying that the church front. I'm not saying that the church has to be a political response. The has to be a political response. The has to be a political response. The church has to be has to provide a

church has to be has to provide a church has to be has to provide a biblical response to what we're seeing. biblical response to what we're seeing. biblical response to what we're seeing. And with the fastpaced nature of culture And with the fastpaced nature of culture And with the fastpaced nature of culture and society and trends, uh I don't and society and trends, uh I don't and society and trends, uh I don't believe it's the church's responsibility believe it's the church's responsibility believe it's the church's responsibility to respond to every trend or to to respond to every trend or to to respond to every trend or to everything. But certain certainly the everything. But certain certainly the everything. But certain certainly the overarching elements of our current overarching elements of our current overarching elements of our current culture and political dynamic where culture and political dynamic where culture and political dynamic where there is a biblical either mandate or there is a biblical either mandate or there is a biblical either mandate or precedent for it that the church would precedent for it that the church would precedent for it that the church would speak into that and provide biblical speak into that and provide biblical speak into that and provide biblical perspective and and wisdom for how perspective and and wisdom for how perspective and and wisdom for how people should think about certain topics people should think about certain topics people should think about certain topics that have a biblical uh or moral that have a biblical uh or moral that have a biblical uh or moral prerogative. And so prerogative. And so prerogative. And so >> navigating that as an organization >> navigating that as an organization >> navigating that as an organization because as a growing church and being of because as a growing church and being of because as a growing church and being of such a large ministry, if you can such a large ministry, if you can such a large ministry, if you can imagine the opinions, uh we have people imagine the opinions, uh we have people imagine the opinions, uh we have people in our church who are conservative, some in our church who are conservative, some in our church who are conservative, some who are not. We have people who belong who are not. We have people who belong who are not. We have people who belong to one political party over another. to one political party over another. to one political party over another. We're in multiple communities. And so We're in multiple communities. And so We're in multiple communities. And so different communities have different different communities have different different communities have different demographics, different cultural demographics, different cultural demographics, different cultural contexts, different policy initiatives. contexts, different policy initiatives. contexts, different policy initiatives. >> There's a lot going on. and as a church >> There's a lot going on. and as a church >> There's a lot going on. and as a church ministry, especially us that we're ministry, especially us that we're ministry, especially us that we're multi-sight. One of the biggest multi-sight. One of the biggest multi-sight. One of the biggest questions I'm I'm asking myself and our questions I'm I'm asking myself and our questions I'm I'm asking myself and our team is how do we number one stay team is how do we number one stay team is how do we number one stay biblically founded, right? Uh and biblically founded, right? Uh and biblically founded, right? Uh and unwavering in what the biblical standard unwavering in what the biblical standard unwavering in what the biblical standard is. Number two is how do we address the is. Number two is how do we address the is. Number two is how do we address the different things and different different things and different different things and different occurrences in different communities occurrences in different communities occurrences in different communities that we're in. If we were just one side that we're in. If we were just one side that we're in. If we were just one side in one community, well then we would in one community, well then we would in one community, well then we would just be, I guess you could say, in our just be, I guess you could say, in our just be, I guess you could say, in our own little space and our own little own little space and our own little own little space and our own little focus. But we have multi-sight. So we focus. But we have multi-sight. So we focus. But we have multi-sight. So we have multifocus have multifocus have multifocus uh if you will and how we continue to uh if you will and how we continue to uh if you will and how we continue to provide as excellent a ministry as

provide as excellent a ministry as provide as excellent a ministry as possible keeping Jesus at the forefront possible keeping Jesus at the forefront possible keeping Jesus at the forefront above the fray and at the same time above the fray and at the same time above the fray and at the same time giving a biblical perspective so that giving a biblical perspective so that giving a biblical perspective so that people have the right biblical world people have the right biblical world people have the right biblical world view for how to walk out their journey view for how to walk out their journey view for how to walk out their journey of faith uh their relationship with of faith uh their relationship with of faith uh their relationship with Christ but at the same time how to Christ but at the same time how to Christ but at the same time how to respond to what's happening in our world respond to what's happening in our world respond to what's happening in our world uh I think for many times uh for for uh I think for many times uh for for uh I think for many times uh for for many years really for decades the church many years really for decades the church many years really for decades the church has abdicated It's biblical has abdicated It's biblical has abdicated It's biblical responsibility, if you will, to speak responsibility, if you will, to speak responsibility, if you will, to speak into things not from a political into things not from a political into things not from a political perspective, but from a biblical perspective, but from a biblical perspective, but from a biblical perspective. perspective. perspective. >> And because that application of >> And because that application of >> And because that application of responsibility, responsibility, responsibility, uh we've seen a lot of things that have uh we've seen a lot of things that have uh we've seen a lot of things that have happened. Thankfully, in recent seasons, happened. Thankfully, in recent seasons, happened. Thankfully, in recent seasons, in recent years, we've seen a a shift in recent years, we've seen a a shift in recent years, we've seen a a shift where faith is now at the forefront. And where faith is now at the forefront. And where faith is now at the forefront. And so though I have that question, my so though I have that question, my so though I have that question, my biggest, I guess you could say biggest, I guess you could say biggest, I guess you could say prerogative is to leverage that people prerogative is to leverage that people prerogative is to leverage that people are focused more on faith, that people are focused more on faith, that people are focused more on faith, that people are open to faith now, more so in our are open to faith now, more so in our are open to faith now, more so in our country, that people are focused more on country, that people are focused more on country, that people are focused more on this person of Jesus is to leverage that this person of Jesus is to leverage that this person of Jesus is to leverage that as an opportunity to really hone in and as an opportunity to really hone in and as an opportunity to really hone in and speak and to uh people's hearts and speak and to uh people's hearts and speak and to uh people's hearts and minds and into the different communities minds and into the different communities minds and into the different communities that we're in so that they have the that we're in so that they have the that we're in so that they have the right biblical perspective, the biblical right biblical perspective, the biblical right biblical perspective, the biblical worldview to carry out what God has worldview to carry out what God has worldview to carry out what God has enabled them are called them to do.

enabled them are called them to do. enabled them are called them to do. >> Yeah, that's so good. I love I love what >> Yeah, that's so good. I love I love what >> Yeah, that's so good. I love I love what you're saying there. And you know, I you're saying there. And you know, I you're saying there. And you know, I know I had a a friend say, you know, if know I had a a friend say, you know, if know I had a a friend say, you know, if you're, you're, you're, you know, we we all are serving in a you know, we we all are serving in a you know, we we all are serving in a context. We serve in a particular time, context. We serve in a particular time, context. We serve in a particular time, in a particular cultural context, and in a particular cultural context, and in a particular cultural context, and God's called us to lead in that context. God's called us to lead in that context. God's called us to lead in that context. And if you're not feeling the pull from, And if you're not feeling the pull from, And if you're not feeling the pull from, you know, multiple sides, multiple you know, multiple sides, multiple you know, multiple sides, multiple polarities, you're like, "Well, polarities, you're like, "Well, polarities, you're like, "Well, everybody here agrees with with me." everybody here agrees with with me." everybody here agrees with with me." then it means you're not actually then it means you're not actually then it means you're not actually reaching your community, you know, and reaching your community, you know, and reaching your community, you know, and the fact that you're feeling that the fact that you're feeling that the fact that you're feeling that tension means okay, like there's there's tension means okay, like there's there's tension means okay, like there's there's people from a wide variety of and it can people from a wide variety of and it can people from a wide variety of and it can be all different, you know, political is be all different, you know, political is be all different, you know, political is one, but there's lots of different ways one, but there's lots of different ways one, but there's lots of different ways to think of that. to think of that. to think of that. >> And yeah, that's that's so true. I I uh >> And yeah, that's that's so true. I I uh >> And yeah, that's that's so true. I I uh really appreciate this. Well, Eric, really appreciate this. Well, Eric, really appreciate this. Well, Eric, you're uh you're a blessing to us. I you're uh you're a blessing to us. I you're uh you're a blessing to us. I thank you so much for for giving us time thank you so much for for giving us time thank you so much for for giving us time today and helping us think about these today and helping us think about these today and helping us think about these things as we kick off into 2026. If uh things as we kick off into 2026. If uh things as we kick off into 2026. If uh where do we want to send people if they where do we want to send people if they where do we want to send people if they want to track with you or with the want to track with you or with the want to track with you or with the church? How do we how do we want to get church? How do we how do we want to get church? How do we how do we want to get people connected to cross? people connected to cross? people connected to cross? >> Yeah. Well, Rich, thanks for the >> Yeah. Well, Rich, thanks for the >> Yeah. Well, Rich, thanks for the opportunity and it's what a blessing for opportunity and it's what a blessing for opportunity and it's what a blessing for us and for me personally to be able to us and for me personally to be able to us and for me personally to be able to just share some thoughts and if it helps just share some thoughts and if it helps just share some thoughts and if it helps anybody uh we'll praise God uh for that.

anybody uh we'll praise God uh for that. anybody uh we'll praise God uh for that. I think if you want to follow the I think if you want to follow the I think if you want to follow the church, we're crosschurchonline.com or church, we're crosschurchonline.com or church, we're crosschurchonline.com or crosschurch uh RGB on Instagram, crosschurch uh RGB on Instagram, crosschurch uh RGB on Instagram, YouTube, Facebook, all of you know most YouTube, Facebook, all of you know most YouTube, Facebook, all of you know most of the social media platforms. Uh if you of the social media platforms. Uh if you of the social media platforms. Uh if you want to connect with me, I'd be happy to want to connect with me, I'd be happy to want to connect with me, I'd be happy to connect with you at eric e r i c pgza uh connect with you at eric e r i c pgza uh connect with you at eric e r i c pgza uh on any of the social media platforms. on any of the social media platforms. on any of the social media platforms. It'd be a privilege for me to help you It'd be a privilege for me to help you It'd be a privilege for me to help you guys and to share some thoughts and even guys and to share some thoughts and even guys and to share some thoughts and even answer questions. Be more than happy to answer questions. Be more than happy to answer questions. Be more than happy to do that. If I can serve your ministries do that. If I can serve your ministries do that. If I can serve your ministries in any way, by all means, feel free to in any way, by all means, feel free to in any way, by all means, feel free to reach out to me on any of the social reach out to me on any of the social reach out to me on any of the social media platforms. media platforms. media platforms. >> Nice. Thanks so much, Eric. Really >> Nice. Thanks so much, Eric. Really >> Nice. Thanks so much, Eric. Really appreciate you being here today, sir. appreciate you being here today, sir. appreciate you being here today, sir. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. >> God bless you. Appreciate it.