Staffing for Growth in 2026: When Hiring Works (and When It Doesn’t) with Shayla McCormick

And if every solution is to hire, I And if every solution is to hire, I don't think the church has a staffing don't think the church has a staffing don't think the church has a staffing problem. I actually think they probably problem. I actually think they probably problem. I actually think they probably have a disciplehip problem. [music] >> Growth pressure, staffing questions, >> Growth pressure, staffing questions, facility decisions, [music] and the facility decisions, [music] and the facility decisions, [music] and the emotional weight of leading teams. emotional weight of leading teams. emotional weight of leading teams. That's the world executive pastors are That's the world executive pastors are That's the world executive pastors are navigating right now. Today on the navigating right now. Today on the navigating right now. Today on the Unseminary Podcast, we're sitting down Unseminary Podcast, we're sitting down Unseminary Podcast, we're sitting down with an executive pastor from a with an executive pastor from a with an executive pastor from a prevailing church to unpack what leaders prevailing church to unpack what leaders prevailing church to unpack what leaders like you shared in the national like you shared in the national like you shared in the national executive pastor survey so you can lead executive pastor survey so you can lead executive pastor survey so you can lead forward [music] with clarity. forward [music] with clarity. forward [music] with clarity. Hey friends, welcome to the Unseminary Hey friends, welcome to the Unseminary Hey friends, welcome to the Unseminary podcast. So glad that you have decided podcast. So glad that you have decided podcast. So glad that you have decided to tune in. We are in the middle of to tune in. We are in the middle of to tune in. We are in the middle of these special episodes. I've been loving these special episodes. I've been loving these special episodes. I've been loving these around really responding to your these around really responding to your these around really responding to your survey. We did a national executive survey. We did a national executive survey. We did a national executive pastor survey. It's the largest survey I pastor survey. It's the largest survey I pastor survey. It's the largest survey I can say that I'm aware of of this where can say that I'm aware of of this where can say that I'm aware of of this where we get out and talk to executive pastors we get out and talk to executive pastors we get out and talk to executive pastors across the country and really ask them across the country and really ask them across the country and really ask them how's it going in their church, what are how's it going in their church, what are how's it going in their church, what are they feeling, what are they learning to they feeling, what are they learning to they feeling, what are they learning to really take a limus test of where things really take a limus test of where things really take a limus test of where things are at. And then what we're doing is are at. And then what we're doing is are at. And then what we're doing is pulling in some incredible uh leaders to pulling in some incredible uh leaders to pulling in some incredible uh leaders to help you wrestle through with some of help you wrestle through with some of help you wrestle through with some of the findings. And I'm excited, the findings. And I'm excited, the findings. And I'm excited, privileged really to have Shayla privileged really to have Shayla privileged really to have Shayla McCormack with us today. She's uh with McCormack with us today. She's uh with McCormack with us today. She's uh with an incredible church called Coastal an incredible church called Coastal an incredible church called Coastal Community Church, a multi-sight church Community Church, a multi-sight church Community Church, a multi-sight church with, if I'm counting correctly, three with, if I'm counting correctly, three with, if I'm counting correctly, three locations in Florida. started in se uh locations in Florida. started in se uh locations in Florida. started in se uh in September 2009, not that long ago, in September 2009, not that long ago, in September 2009, not that long ago, and they've repeatedly been one of the and they've repeatedly been one of the and they've repeatedly been one of the fastest growing churches in the country.

fastest growing churches in the country. fastest growing churches in the country. Uh she serves with her husband at this Uh she serves with her husband at this Uh she serves with her husband at this church, and this is an incredible church, and this is an incredible church, and this is an incredible church. You should be following along church. You should be following along church. You should be following along with Jayla and with the church. Welcome with Jayla and with the church. Welcome with Jayla and with the church. Welcome to the show. So glad you're here. to the show. So glad you're here. to the show. So glad you're here. >> Thank you so much, Rich. I'm glad to be >> Thank you so much, Rich. I'm glad to be >> Thank you so much, Rich. I'm glad to be back and excited just to, you know, back and excited just to, you know, back and excited just to, you know, share with everybody just some insights share with everybody just some insights share with everybody just some insights and things that that I've learned along and things that that I've learned along and things that that I've learned along the way, too. the way, too. the way, too. >> Nice. This is Yeah, super fun to have >> Nice. This is Yeah, super fun to have >> Nice. This is Yeah, super fun to have you on again. and you should go back and you on again. and you should go back and you on again. and you should go back and listen to back uh episode that Shayla listen to back uh episode that Shayla listen to back uh episode that Shayla was on was one of our best of last year. was on was one of our best of last year. was on was one of our best of last year. Super helpful. Um so you're going to Super helpful. Um so you're going to Super helpful. Um so you're going to want to lean in on that. Now when I saw want to lean in on that. Now when I saw want to lean in on that. Now when I saw some of the results from the survey uh some of the results from the survey uh some of the results from the survey uh friends, I'm letting you behind the friends, I'm letting you behind the friends, I'm letting you behind the curtain. We looked at a couple curtain. We looked at a couple curtain. We looked at a couple different, you know, things and I sent different, you know, things and I sent different, you know, things and I sent them out to these friends and I said, them out to these friends and I said, them out to these friends and I said, "Hey, you pick whichever one you want." "Hey, you pick whichever one you want." "Hey, you pick whichever one you want." And I was really hoping that you would And I was really hoping that you would And I was really hoping that you would [laughter] pick this one because uh I [laughter] pick this one because uh I [laughter] pick this one because uh I really think that you've got just so really think that you've got just so really think that you've got just so much to offer to this. So let's I'm much to offer to this. So let's I'm much to offer to this. So let's I'm going to unpack this a little bit. So, going to unpack this a little bit. So, going to unpack this a little bit. So, one of the questions we asked was, you one of the questions we asked was, you one of the questions we asked was, you know, there's all these different roles know, there's all these different roles know, there's all these different roles that people are hiring. And for years, that people are hiring. And for years, that people are hiring. And for years, in fact, I actually thought about maybe in fact, I actually thought about maybe in fact, I actually thought about maybe not doing this question this year not doing this question this year not doing this question this year because basically the order is pretty because basically the order is pretty because basically the order is pretty similar that people come back every similar that people come back every similar that people come back every year. But what we've seen from 2023 to year. But what we've seen from 2023 to year. But what we've seen from 2023 to 2024 is that particularly support roles, 2024 is that particularly support roles, 2024 is that particularly support roles, this idea of support roles that churches this idea of support roles that churches this idea of support roles that churches are out looking for those has grown are out looking for those has grown are out looking for those has grown significantly, 12 percentage points in significantly, 12 percentage points in significantly, 12 percentage points in those three years. other rules like uh those three years. other rules like uh those three years. other rules like uh nextgen remained consistently at the nextgen remained consistently at the nextgen remained consistently at the top. Um you know outreach ranks the top. Um you know outreach ranks the top. Um you know outreach ranks the lowest at like 9 to 12% which breaks my lowest at like 9 to 12% which breaks my lowest at like 9 to 12% which breaks my heart as a formal outreach pastor. I was heart as a formal outreach pastor. I was heart as a formal outreach pastor. I was like ah people are not thinking about

like ah people are not thinking about like ah people are not thinking about those things. So today what I want to do those things. So today what I want to do those things. So today what I want to do is unpack this idea around how what are is unpack this idea around how what are is unpack this idea around how what are who are we hiring for? What difference who are we hiring for? What difference who are we hiring for? What difference does it make? We know as an executive does it make? We know as an executive does it make? We know as an executive pastor listening in I know that many of pastor listening in I know that many of pastor listening in I know that many of you are are kicking off this year you are are kicking off this year you are are kicking off this year thinking about hm who should we be thinking about hm who should we be thinking about hm who should we be hiring? What should that look like? and hiring? What should that look like? and hiring? What should that look like? and really this tension that we all face really this tension that we all face really this tension that we all face with, you know, being understaffed and with, you know, being understaffed and with, you know, being understaffed and overstaffed. How does all that work overstaffed. How does all that work overstaffed. How does all that work together? So, I'm really looking forward together? So, I'm really looking forward together? So, I'm really looking forward to having your input on us. Um, why do to having your input on us. Um, why do to having your input on us. Um, why do you think churches continue to hire for you think churches continue to hire for you think churches continue to hire for essentially the same roles as we see essentially the same roles as we see essentially the same roles as we see year in year out? Shayla, why why do we year in year out? Shayla, why why do we year in year out? Shayla, why why do we see that even as ministry changes? It's see that even as ministry changes? It's see that even as ministry changes? It's like we find ourselves having the same like we find ourselves having the same like we find ourselves having the same conversation. Where are the kids conversation. Where are the kids conversation. Where are the kids ministry people? Where are the support ministry people? Where are the support ministry people? Where are the support roles people? Why do we find ourselves roles people? Why do we find ourselves roles people? Why do we find ourselves in these same conversations? in these same conversations? in these same conversations? >> Yeah. Honestly, I think a lot of times >> Yeah. Honestly, I think a lot of times >> Yeah. Honestly, I think a lot of times as church leaders, like we repeat roles as church leaders, like we repeat roles as church leaders, like we repeat roles because we haven't we haven't really because we haven't we haven't really because we haven't we haven't really honestly just kind of stopped long honestly just kind of stopped long honestly just kind of stopped long enough to really go, what does this enough to really go, what does this enough to really go, what does this season actually require? season actually require? season actually require? >> I think a lot of times what we do is we >> I think a lot of times what we do is we >> I think a lot of times what we do is we hire to almost relieve pressure but not hire to almost relieve pressure but not hire to almost relieve pressure but not really build capacity.

really build capacity. really build capacity. >> And so I think we repeat roles because >> And so I think we repeat roles because >> And so I think we repeat roles because like kids ministry, right? That's always like kids ministry, right? That's always like kids ministry, right? That's always a place where you have growth. You have a place where you have growth. You have a place where you have growth. You have kids. You have to staff a lot of kids. You have to staff a lot of kids. You have to staff a lot of volunteers. It's a lot of administrative volunteers. It's a lot of administrative volunteers. It's a lot of administrative work. And you know, sometimes I think we work. And you know, sometimes I think we work. And you know, sometimes I think we can tend to go, hey, I want to relieve can tend to go, hey, I want to relieve can tend to go, hey, I want to relieve pressure on this. And so we end up pressure on this. And so we end up pressure on this. And so we end up trying to to put somebody in a seat and trying to to put somebody in a seat and trying to to put somebody in a seat and then we end up overhiring. And a lot of then we end up overhiring. And a lot of then we end up overhiring. And a lot of a lot of us hire when it hurts, right? a lot of us hire when it hurts, right? a lot of us hire when it hurts, right? when okay attendance is growing, when okay attendance is growing, when okay attendance is growing, volunteers are tired, systems are volunteers are tired, systems are volunteers are tired, systems are breaking, a leader is overwhelmed breaking, a leader is overwhelmed breaking, a leader is overwhelmed >> and we end up I think making these >> and we end up I think making these >> and we end up I think making these desperation hires rather than hiring to desperation hires rather than hiring to desperation hires rather than hiring to actually actually actually >> build capacity. Um that's good so that >> build capacity. Um that's good so that >> build capacity. Um that's good so that we can continue to grow. And so I think we can continue to grow. And so I think we can continue to grow. And so I think a lot of times our mind mindset kind of a lot of times our mind mindset kind of a lot of times our mind mindset kind of subtly shifts from subtly shifts from subtly shifts from >> I mean Ephesians 4, right? You equip the >> I mean Ephesians 4, right? You equip the >> I mean Ephesians 4, right? You equip the saints saints saints >> for the work of the ministry. And it >> for the work of the ministry. And it >> for the work of the ministry. And it sometimes our minds mind mindset shifts sometimes our minds mind mindset shifts sometimes our minds mind mindset shifts from equipping the saints from equipping the saints from equipping the saints >> to >> to >> to >> almost replacing >> almost replacing >> almost replacing >> the staff role or the saints role with a >> the staff role or the saints role with a >> the staff role or the saints role with a staff member staff member staff member >> and it can tend to just >> and it can tend to just >> and it can tend to just >> you can be overstaffed and then that >> you can be overstaffed and then that >> you can be overstaffed and then that puts pressure financially and all you puts pressure financially and all you puts pressure financially and all you know like know like know like >> so much. that we just continue to repeat >> so much. that we just continue to repeat >> so much. that we just continue to repeat the process because again we hire to the process because again we hire to the process because again we hire to relieve pressure instead of build relieve pressure instead of build relieve pressure instead of build capacity.

capacity. capacity. >> I would love to unpack that. >> I would love to unpack that. >> I would love to unpack that. >> I think there's so much there. So, how >> I think there's so much there. So, how >> I think there's so much there. So, how are you discerning or how you know if a are you discerning or how you know if a are you discerning or how you know if a church calls you up and is asking you to church calls you up and is asking you to church calls you up and is asking you to discern really between those two like discern really between those two like discern really between those two like hey I've got maybe I've got an hey I've got maybe I've got an hey I've got maybe I've got an operational problem I'm trying to operational problem I'm trying to operational problem I'm trying to relieve pressure using the language you relieve pressure using the language you relieve pressure using the language you do you were saying versus like building do you were saying versus like building do you were saying versus like building capacity for the future which inherently capacity for the future which inherently capacity for the future which inherently sounds like to me if I'm choosing to sounds like to me if I'm choosing to sounds like to me if I'm choosing to build capacity I'm going to live with build capacity I'm going to live with build capacity I'm going to live with some pain in the short term is what I some pain in the short term is what I some pain in the short term is what I hear in that help me discern what that hear in that help me discern what that hear in that help me discern what that what that looks like uh how do you work what that looks like uh how do you work what that looks like uh how do you work that out at, you know, at at Coastal. that out at, you know, at at Coastal. that out at, you know, at at Coastal. >> I think we we are always looking for >> I think we we are always looking for >> I think we we are always looking for equippers for multipliers. equippers for multipliers. equippers for multipliers. >> Um, >> Um, >> Um, >> we ask the question very consistently. >> we ask the question very consistently. >> we ask the question very consistently. >> Um, >> Um, >> Um, >> is this a doer or is this a leader? And >> is this a doer or is this a leader? And >> is this a doer or is this a leader? And not that doers are bad. Doers can not that doers are bad. Doers can not that doers are bad. Doers can actually they can help you add capacity actually they can help you add capacity actually they can help you add capacity because it relieves the stress or the because it relieves the stress or the because it relieves the stress or the pain on a leader, right? Because you pain on a leader, right? Because you pain on a leader, right? Because you have somebody doing stuff. But equippers have somebody doing stuff. But equippers have somebody doing stuff. But equippers actually they multiply.

actually they multiply. actually they multiply. >> And so when I'm a growing church, if I >> And so when I'm a growing church, if I >> And so when I'm a growing church, if I continue to hire doers, continue to hire doers, continue to hire doers, then I'm just like then I'm just like then I'm just like I'm solving a temporary solution I'm solving a temporary solution I'm solving a temporary solution essentially or a temporary problem essentially or a temporary problem essentially or a temporary problem because at some point those things are because at some point those things are because at some point those things are going to go away. But going to go away. But going to go away. But >> what what the approach that we've taken >> what what the approach that we've taken >> what what the approach that we've taken is the Ephesians 4. You know, you equip is the Ephesians 4. You know, you equip is the Ephesians 4. You know, you equip the saints for the work of the the saints for the work of the the saints for the work of the ministries. And I think a lot of a lot ministries. And I think a lot of a lot ministries. And I think a lot of a lot of the times we actually neglect almost of the times we actually neglect almost of the times we actually neglect almost our volunteer base. our volunteer base. our volunteer base. >> Um and we lean heavily on our >> Um and we lean heavily on our >> Um and we lean heavily on our volunteers. Our we average probably volunteers. Our we average probably volunteers. Our we average probably 5,000 in week attendance and we have 5,000 in week attendance and we have 5,000 in week attendance and we have about 25 staff members about 25 staff members about 25 staff members >> and [snorts] >> and [snorts] >> and [snorts] that is not a lot of staff. that is not a lot of staff. that is not a lot of staff. >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> for >> for >> for >> that's insane. That to me that is >> that's insane. That to me that is >> that's insane. That to me that is friends. I hope you heard that. So friends. I hope you heard that. So friends. I hope you heard that. So that's like one to 200 or something like that's like one to 200 or something like that's like one to 200 or something like that. It's it's that. It's it's that. It's it's >> I don't even know.

>> I don't even know. >> I don't even know. >> It's it's Yeah, it's very low. It's very >> It's it's Yeah, it's very low. It's very >> It's it's Yeah, it's very low. It's very low. Yes. low. Yes. low. Yes. >> But we have a very very very high value >> But we have a very very very high value >> But we have a very very very high value >> in equipping our volunteers because >> in equipping our volunteers because >> in equipping our volunteers because there are people in our church that want there are people in our church that want there are people in our church that want to they want to do. They might be the to they want to do. They might be the to they want to do. They might be the doers that can help build capacity in a doers that can help build capacity in a doers that can help build capacity in a way that can help lift responsibility way that can help lift responsibility way that can help lift responsibility off people. We have people that come in off people. We have people that come in off people. We have people that come in >> that like they're like on staff but they >> that like they're like on staff but they >> that like they're like on staff but they don't get paid just because they want to don't get paid just because they want to don't get paid just because they want to come and they want to serve. And a lot come and they want to serve. And a lot come and they want to serve. And a lot of times I think we actually say no for of times I think we actually say no for of times I think we actually say no for people because oh I don't want to ask people because oh I don't want to ask people because oh I don't want to ask somebody to do another thing but they're somebody to do another thing but they're somebody to do another thing but they're like begging use my gifts, use my like begging use my gifts, use my like begging use my gifts, use my talents, talents, talents, >> but we're saying no for them. And then >> but we're saying no for them. And then >> but we're saying no for them. And then we're going and hiring for these we're going and hiring for these we're going and hiring for these positions when it's something that we positions when it's something that we positions when it's something that we could actually give away could actually give away could actually give away >> and equip the saints for the work of the >> and equip the saints for the work of the >> and equip the saints for the work of the ministry. Yeah. ministry. Yeah. ministry. Yeah. >> And for instance, in our kids ministry, >> And for instance, in our kids ministry, >> And for instance, in our kids ministry, we average at one of our locations we average at one of our locations we average at one of our locations probably about between 5 and 600 kids on probably about between 5 and 600 kids on probably about between 5 and 600 kids on the weekend.

the weekend. the weekend. >> And I have one full-time staff member >> And I have one full-time staff member >> And I have one full-time staff member >> for that position right now. >> for that position right now. >> for that position right now. >> Wow. And now we are getting ready to >> Wow. And now we are getting ready to >> Wow. And now we are getting ready to hire an additional person. But hire an additional person. But hire an additional person. But >> she has done a phenomenal job at >> she has done a phenomenal job at >> she has done a phenomenal job at building high capacity leaders that are building high capacity leaders that are building high capacity leaders that are volunteers volunteers volunteers >> that want to give their time and their >> that want to give their time and their >> that want to give their time and their energy and their resources and their energy and their resources and their energy and their resources and their passion. passion. passion. >> But I think for so many churches, we >> But I think for so many churches, we >> But I think for so many churches, we just we say no for people and then we just we say no for people and then we just we say no for people and then we end up hiring something that we could end up hiring something that we could end up hiring something that we could give away give away give away >> in a volunteer capacity. Now that is >> in a volunteer capacity. Now that is >> in a volunteer capacity. Now that is harder on us. M harder on us. M harder on us. M >> because you have to be, you know, you >> because you have to be, you know, you >> because you have to be, you know, you have to teach and equip and, you know, have to teach and equip and, you know, have to teach and equip and, you know, >> things. It's longer term. It's just, >> things. It's longer term. It's just, >> things. It's longer term. It's just, it's not, it's not a quick and easy. it's not, it's not a quick and easy. it's not, it's not a quick and easy. >> So, I want to come back to the big ask >> So, I want to come back to the big ask >> So, I want to come back to the big ask in a second, but I want to I want to um in a second, but I want to I want to um in a second, but I want to I want to um play a bit of the devil's advocate. So, play a bit of the devil's advocate. So, play a bit of the devil's advocate. So, I was having this conversation with a I was having this conversation with a I was having this conversation with a church leader recently, church leader recently, church leader recently, >> and we were looking at their staff. Um, >> and we were looking at their staff. Um, >> and we were looking at their staff. Um, like they're just total staffing. And we like they're just total staffing. And we like they're just total staffing. And we were actually having this conversation were actually having this conversation were actually having this conversation between between between >> I was asking them like, "Hey, what how >> I was asking them like, "Hey, what how >> I was asking them like, "Hey, what how many of these people would you say are many of these people would you say are many of these people would you say are Ephesians 4 type people? equippers, Ephesians 4 type people? equippers, Ephesians 4 type people? equippers, people who are people who are people who are >> um and then how many of these would be >> um and then how many of these would be >> um and then how many of these would be doers because every staff team has some doers because every staff team has some doers because every staff team has some doers on it. Like you have some doers on it. Like you have some doers on it. Like you have some percentage of them.

percentage of them. percentage of them. >> 100%. >> 100%. >> 100%. >> When when you shooting from the hip of >> When when you shooting from the hip of >> When when you shooting from the hip of those 25, what do you think your ratio those 25, what do you think your ratio those 25, what do you think your ratio is on your team of equippers to doers? is on your team of equippers to doers? is on your team of equippers to doers? Cuz this is what this leader said to me. Cuz this is what this leader said to me. Cuz this is what this leader said to me. They were like, cuz I was kind of They were like, cuz I was kind of They were like, cuz I was kind of pushing them. I was like, I think you pushing them. I was like, I think you pushing them. I was like, I think you need to have less of these doers on your need to have less of these doers on your need to have less of these doers on your team. like we've got to we got to get team. like we've got to we got to get team. like we've got to we got to get not I said we have to get rid of them not I said we have to get rid of them not I said we have to get rid of them but we got to grow some of these leaders but we got to grow some of these leaders but we got to grow some of these leaders up to become more multipliers. up to become more multipliers. up to become more multipliers. >> Yep. >> Yep. >> Yep. >> And they were like well but those people >> And they were like well but those people >> And they were like well but those people they release my multiplying type people they release my multiplying type people they release my multiplying type people to do the work that they need to do. And to do the work that they need to do. And to do the work that they need to do. And I was like yes but if we don't watch I was like yes but if we don't watch I was like yes but if we don't watch this ratio very quickly we'll we'll end this ratio very quickly we'll we'll end this ratio very quickly we'll we'll end up with a bunch of doers on our team. So up with a bunch of doers on our team. So up with a bunch of doers on our team. So how what would the ratio look like for how what would the ratio look like for how what would the ratio look like for you on your team? How do you think about you on your team? How do you think about you on your team? How do you think about those issues? Unpack that for me. Yeah, those issues? Unpack that for me. Yeah, those issues? Unpack that for me. Yeah, I would I would say it's maybe like a I would I would say it's maybe like a I would I would say it's maybe like a I would say it's maybe 10% that are that I would say it's maybe 10% that are that I would say it's maybe 10% that are that are are are >> Yeah, a couple two or three maybe four >> Yeah, a couple two or three maybe four >> Yeah, a couple two or three maybe four at the most kind of thing. at the most kind of thing. at the most kind of thing. >> Yeah, exactly. >> Yeah, exactly. >> Yeah, exactly. >> That are that are not the ones that I'm >> That are that are not the ones that I'm >> That are that are not the ones that I'm expecting. And even even them I expect expecting. And even even them I expect expecting. And even even them I expect to go out and multiply as well. It's to go out and multiply as well. It's to go out and multiply as well. It's it's it's part of our part of our it's it's part of our part of our it's it's part of our part of our conversations. But it's a very low conversations. But it's a very low conversations. But it's a very low percentage percentage percentage >> because >> because >> because for me it get again it goes back to for me it get again it goes back to for me it get again it goes back to those are things that I can equip other those are things that I can equip other those are things that I can equip other people to do um that I can give ministry people to do um that I can give ministry people to do um that I can give ministry away away away >> and >> and >> and >> okay so yeah let's talk about the big >> okay so yeah let's talk about the big >> okay so yeah let's talk about the big ask. So okay ask. So okay ask. So okay >> I hear this all the time from church >> I hear this all the time from church >> I hear this all the time from church leaders across the country and they'll leaders across the country and they'll leaders across the country and they'll this is this is how the conversation this is this is how the conversation this is this is how the conversation goes. They're like, "Yeah, yeah, but you goes. They're like, "Yeah, yeah, but you goes. They're like, "Yeah, yeah, but you don't know like people in our part of don't know like people in our part of don't know like people in our part of the country, they're very busy and like

the country, they're very busy and like the country, they're very busy and like the people at our church, they're kind the people at our church, they're kind the people at our church, they're kind of like a big deal and like they got a of like a big deal and like they got a of like a big deal and like they got a lot going on in their life." And like lot going on in their life." And like lot going on in their life." And like this is true. You guys are in like the this is true. You guys are in like the this is true. You guys are in like the greater Fort Lauderdale area. This is a greater Fort Lauderdale area. This is a greater Fort Lauderdale area. This is a very, you very, you very, you know, place and you're doing the big know, place and you're doing the big know, place and you're doing the big ask. You're saying, "Hey, you used it, ask. You're saying, "Hey, you used it, ask. You're saying, "Hey, you used it, which is you said like, hey, basically which is you said like, hey, basically which is you said like, hey, basically we're saying, could you work part-time we're saying, could you work part-time we're saying, could you work part-time for us in this area? Have a huge amount for us in this area? Have a huge amount for us in this area? Have a huge amount of responsibility. How do you keep the of responsibility. How do you keep the of responsibility. How do you keep the big ask in front of people? How how big ask in front of people? How how big ask in front of people? How how what's that look like? Unpack that for what's that look like? Unpack that for what's that look like? Unpack that for us. us. us. >> I mean, something that we talk about on >> I mean, something that we talk about on >> I mean, something that we talk about on our staff very frequently is because our staff very frequently is because our staff very frequently is because it's so natural to say, "Oh, they're too it's so natural to say, "Oh, they're too it's so natural to say, "Oh, they're too busy, especially high-capacity people." busy, especially high-capacity people." busy, especially high-capacity people." What I've what I've realized, this is What I've what I've realized, this is What I've what I've realized, this is just a side note, but like just a side note, but like just a side note, but like >> single moms are the most high-capacity >> single moms are the most high-capacity >> single moms are the most high-capacity people. They are the busiest people people. They are the busiest people people. They are the busiest people juggling the most things, but there are juggling the most things, but there are juggling the most things, but there are best people to come in and serve and do best people to come in and serve and do best people to come in and serve and do and all of that, but they're busy. and all of that, but they're busy. and all of that, but they're busy. >> And so just because someone seems busy >> And so just because someone seems busy >> And so just because someone seems busy or successful or, you know, whatever or successful or, you know, whatever or successful or, you know, whatever barrier that you put in your brain, barrier that you put in your brain, barrier that you put in your brain, >> like I think the reality is is we say no >> like I think the reality is is we say no >> like I think the reality is is we say no for them before we even ask.

for them before we even ask. for them before we even ask. >> And so the conversations on our team >> And so the conversations on our team >> And so the conversations on our team always look like, are you saying no for always look like, are you saying no for always look like, are you saying no for them? make the ask anyways. them? make the ask anyways. them? make the ask anyways. >> And a lot of times they're like, "Oh my >> And a lot of times they're like, "Oh my >> And a lot of times they're like, "Oh my gosh, they said yes." I mean, I have gosh, they said yes." I mean, I have gosh, they said yes." I mean, I have people that run million billion dollar people that run million billion dollar people that run million billion dollar companies serving in my parking team. companies serving in my parking team. companies serving in my parking team. You know, it's like You know, it's like You know, it's like >> it's >> it's >> it's >> Yeah. I I I mean, I you have people that >> Yeah. I I I mean, I you have people that >> Yeah. I I I mean, I you have people that are retired, very successful business are retired, very successful business are retired, very successful business leaders that are coming in and leaders that are coming in and leaders that are coming in and volunteering to, you know, do finance volunteering to, you know, do finance volunteering to, you know, do finance things. Like it's finding things. Like it's finding things. Like it's finding >> what are what are they great at and >> what are what are they great at and >> what are what are they great at and giving them purpose in it. giving them purpose in it. giving them purpose in it. >> Yes. Yes. >> Yes. Yes. >> Yes. Yes. >> And not just saying no for them because >> And not just saying no for them because >> And not just saying no for them because I think they're successful or they're I think they're successful or they're I think they're successful or they're too busy. too busy. too busy. >> How much of that is because I would >> How much of that is because I would >> How much of that is because I would totally agree. How much of that is like totally agree. How much of that is like totally agree. How much of that is like like what I hear you saying it's like a like what I hear you saying it's like a like what I hear you saying it's like a mindset issue for us as leaders like hey mindset issue for us as leaders like hey mindset issue for us as leaders like hey we can't even when we ask someone we can we can't even when we ask someone we can we can't even when we ask someone we can say no be for them in that question say no be for them in that question say no be for them in that question right we can be like I don't know if you right we can be like I don't know if you right we can be like I don't know if you could you know you're real busy and I'm could you know you're real busy and I'm could you know you're real busy and I'm not sure blah blah blah and that kind of not sure blah blah blah and that kind of not sure blah blah blah and that kind of lets them off the hook before we even so lets them off the hook before we even so lets them off the hook before we even so part of it is a mindset but then part of part of it is a mindset but then part of part of it is a mindset but then part of it has to be like a structural thing the it has to be like a structural thing the it has to be like a structural thing the way you're structuring the roles h how way you're structuring the roles h how way you're structuring the roles h how do those two interact with each other do those two interact with each other do those two interact with each other >> ask the question one more time >> ask the question one more time >> ask the question one more time >> so part of it is like our mindset are >> so part of it is like our mindset are >> so part of it is like our mindset are the the when we approach people we're the the when we approach people we're the the when we approach people we're asking them in a way that you know is asking them in a way that you know is asking them in a way that you know is casting vision for like hey this is a casting vision for like hey this is a casting vision for like hey this is a huge opportunity to push the kingdom huge opportunity to push the kingdom huge opportunity to push the kingdom forward but then also a part of it I forward but then also a part of it I forward but then also a part of it I would assume is like the way we're would assume is like the way we're would assume is like the way we're structuring the roles so that it it structuring the roles so that it it structuring the roles so that it it feels like no like we're we're kind of

feels like no like we're we're kind of feels like no like we're we're kind of it is a big ask like it's like we're it is a big ask like it's like we're it is a big ask like it's like we're giving them enough responsibility and giving them enough responsibility and giving them enough responsibility and all that sort of thing how do those all that sort of thing how do those all that sort of thing how do those interact with each other when you're interact with each other when you're interact with each other when you're asking someone when you're making a big asking someone when you're making a big asking someone when you're making a big ask like that ask like that ask like that >> I mean mo I think most of what I'm >> I mean mo I think most of what I'm >> I mean mo I think most of what I'm talking what I'm referring to is a talking what I'm referring to is a talking what I'm referring to is a little bit more in the the doer space or little bit more in the the doer space or little bit more in the the doer space or the operational space. So it's the operational space. So it's the operational space. So it's structuring things based on almost task structuring things based on almost task structuring things based on almost task >> or you know responsibility that can be >> or you know responsibility that can be >> or you know responsibility that can be repeated consistently and come in and repeated consistently and come in and repeated consistently and come in and just you know like get it done just you know like get it done just you know like get it done >> so that I don't have to again go back to >> so that I don't have to again go back to >> so that I don't have to again go back to hiring somebody to do these tasks to hiring somebody to do these tasks to hiring somebody to do these tasks to take this off of this staff member's take this off of this staff member's take this off of this staff member's plate to increase their capacity. I'm plate to increase their capacity. I'm plate to increase their capacity. I'm basically giving those tasks and basically giving those tasks and basically giving those tasks and responsibilities to a volunteer. And I responsibilities to a volunteer. And I responsibilities to a volunteer. And I think a lot of times what's scary to me think a lot of times what's scary to me think a lot of times what's scary to me is is is >> people uh you know churches their first >> people uh you know churches their first >> people uh you know churches their first response to a problem response to a problem response to a problem >> in every situation is to hire.

>> in every situation is to hire. >> in every situation is to hire. >> And >> And >> And >> right >> right >> right >> I think if that's your first response >> I think if that's your first response >> I think if that's your first response you're going to get in tr you're going you're going to get in tr you're going you're going to get in tr you're going to get in big trouble. Um, to get in big trouble. Um, to get in big trouble. Um, >> and you're going to end up overstaffed >> and you're going to end up overstaffed >> and you're going to end up overstaffed because you you staffed in seasons where because you you staffed in seasons where because you you staffed in seasons where attendance was growing or something attendance was growing or something attendance was growing or something again to relieve that pressure. again to relieve that pressure. again to relieve that pressure. >> Yes. Yeah. That's good. >> Yes. Yeah. That's good. >> Yes. Yeah. That's good. >> Not thinking multiplication. And if >> Not thinking multiplication. And if >> Not thinking multiplication. And if every solution is to hire, I don't think every solution is to hire, I don't think every solution is to hire, I don't think the church has a staffing problem. the church has a staffing problem. the church has a staffing problem. >> I actually think they probably have a >> I actually think they probably have a >> I actually think they probably have a disciplehip problem. disciplehip problem. disciplehip problem. >> Oh, that's good. That's good. >> Oh, that's good. That's good. >> Oh, that's good. That's good. >> And an equipping problem. Because the >> And an equipping problem. Because the >> And an equipping problem. Because the goal is to multiply leaders faster so goal is to multiply leaders faster so goal is to multiply leaders faster so that your church grows. that your church grows. that your church grows. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> If we're not thinking multiplication and >> If we're not thinking multiplication and >> If we're not thinking multiplication and equipping, then equipping, then equipping, then you know, I think we're going to get to you know, I think we're going to get to you know, I think we're going to get to a place where again we're we're a place where again we're we're a place where again we're we're overstaffing and we're hiring for the overstaffing and we're hiring for the overstaffing and we're hiring for the same things because we haven't learned same things because we haven't learned same things because we haven't learned to equip and empower to equip and empower to equip and empower um and train up. um and train up. um and train up. >> Yeah, that's good. Let's let's double >> Yeah, that's good. Let's let's double >> Yeah, that's good. Let's let's double click on that. What risks? So click on that. What risks? So click on that. What risks? So overstaffing, why is that a risk? What's overstaffing, why is that a risk? What's overstaffing, why is that a risk? What's the There's obviously a financial risk the There's obviously a financial risk the There's obviously a financial risk there. Are there other risks that you there. Are there other risks that you there. Are there other risks that you see there that emerge when a church see there that emerge when a church see there that emerge when a church consistently staffs for doers or consistently staffs for doers or consistently staffs for doers or execution rather than, you know, invest execution rather than, you know, invest execution rather than, you know, invest in, you know, equipping and raising up in, you know, equipping and raising up in, you know, equipping and raising up uh, you know, the people in their uh, you know, the people in their uh, you know, the people in their church? What would be some other risks church? What would be some other risks church? What would be some other risks you see in that? Yeah, I think if you're you see in that? Yeah, I think if you're you see in that? Yeah, I think if you're if you I'm I'm trying to figure out how to I'm I'm trying to figure out how to frame this. Um frame this. Um frame this. Um >> Yeah.

>> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> If if you're not thinking >> If if you're not thinking >> If if you're not thinking multiplication, you're gonna multiplication, you're gonna multiplication, you're gonna >> you're you're going to hit a point in >> you're you're going to hit a point in >> you're you're going to hit a point in your church where your church where your church where >> like everything isn't always up and to >> like everything isn't always up and to >> like everything isn't always up and to the right. the right. the right. >> Right. Yes. True. And so it's not that >> Right. Yes. True. And so it's not that >> Right. Yes. True. And so it's not that I'm planning for failure or the I'm planning for failure or the I'm planning for failure or the difficulty, but I'm also trying to difficulty, but I'm also trying to difficulty, but I'm also trying to steward steward steward >> um what has been entrusted to me. And >> um what has been entrusted to me. And >> um what has been entrusted to me. And some of that requires foresight and some of that requires foresight and some of that requires foresight and wisdom even in my planning and my wisdom even in my planning and my wisdom even in my planning and my budgeting. And so if one season I'm budgeting. And so if one season I'm budgeting. And so if one season I'm staffing something in growth, the next staffing something in growth, the next staffing something in growth, the next season might not look the same. And I've season might not look the same. And I've season might not look the same. And I've because I haven't diligently given again because I haven't diligently given again because I haven't diligently given again Ephesians 4 given ministry away. My Ephesians 4 given ministry away. My Ephesians 4 given ministry away. My role, pastor's roles, you know, like is role, pastor's roles, you know, like is role, pastor's roles, you know, like is to equip the saints for the work of the to equip the saints for the work of the to equip the saints for the work of the ministry. And if I haven't done those ministry. And if I haven't done those ministry. And if I haven't done those things properly, then I think I'm going things properly, then I think I'm going things properly, then I think I'm going to get a hit a season where then I'm to get a hit a season where then I'm to get a hit a season where then I'm letting staff go. And you know, or letting staff go. And you know, or letting staff go. And you know, or honestly, honestly, honestly, culture has become lazy because culture has become lazy because culture has become lazy because everybody doesn't have enough to to do.

everybody doesn't have enough to to do. everybody doesn't have enough to to do. And so there's tensions and frustrations And so there's tensions and frustrations And so there's tensions and frustrations and you know like and it starts you and you know like and it starts you and you know like and it starts you start to get a culture I think where you start to get a culture I think where you start to get a culture I think where you say well we'll just hire for that we'll say well we'll just hire for that we'll say well we'll just hire for that we'll just hire for that we'll just hire for just hire for that we'll just hire for just hire for that we'll just hire for that instead of okay who's next are you that instead of okay who's next are you that instead of okay who's next are you always developing like what volunteer always developing like what volunteer always developing like what volunteer have you asked to do that have you given have you asked to do that have you given have you asked to do that have you given ministry away and start asking our staff ministry away and start asking our staff ministry away and start asking our staff questions if they're coming to you and questions if they're coming to you and questions if they're coming to you and saying hey I need a I need this role and saying hey I need a I need this role and saying hey I need a I need this role and I need this role and I need this role I need this role and I need this role I need this role and I need this role the question back should be well who the question back should be well who the question back should be well who have you been developing have you been developing have you been developing >> right >> right >> right >> you know what ministry have you given >> you know what ministry have you given >> you know what ministry have you given away away away >> some of those things that just kind of >> some of those things that just kind of >> some of those things that just kind of push back on the solution is not always push back on the solution is not always push back on the solution is not always to hire somebody to hire somebody to hire somebody >> right >> right >> right >> but what responsibility have you taken >> but what responsibility have you taken >> but what responsibility have you taken in development of people in development of people in development of people >> yep yeah that's good in the in the kids >> yep yeah that's good in the in the kids >> yep yeah that's good in the in the kids ministry area you had me referenced this ministry area you had me referenced this ministry area you had me referenced this earlier um you know a campus with 500 earlier um you know a campus with 500 earlier um you know a campus with 500 kids and one staff which again is is uh kids and one staff which again is is uh kids and one staff which again is is uh I know there's lots of executive pastors I know there's lots of executive pastors I know there's lots of executive pastors that are listening in that are like what that are listening in that are like what that are listening in that are like what that's crazy but you are you have that's crazy but you are you have that's crazy but you are you have decided to add a staff member there.

decided to add a staff member there. decided to add a staff member there. What was it that kind of clicked over to What was it that kind of clicked over to What was it that kind of clicked over to say okay um yeah we are going to add say okay um yeah we are going to add say okay um yeah we are going to add someone and and what are what is that someone and and what are what is that someone and and what are what is that role that you're adding and how do you role that you're adding and how do you role that you're adding and how do you continue to ensure that we're you know continue to ensure that we're you know continue to ensure that we're you know that we keep this focus as we look to that we keep this focus as we look to that we keep this focus as we look to the future the future the future >> for us my my kids pastor is obviously >> for us my my kids pastor is obviously >> for us my my kids pastor is obviously very high capacity you know and she is a very high capacity you know and she is a very high capacity you know and she is a multiplier multiplier multiplier >> and her greatest um >> and her greatest um >> and her greatest um use of her time use of her time use of her time >> for me is connecting with those families >> for me is connecting with those families >> for me is connecting with those families amilies um is creating opportunities for amilies um is creating opportunities for amilies um is creating opportunities for them to connect and hiring another them to connect and hiring another them to connect and hiring another person is going to free her up to person is going to free her up to person is going to free her up to connect more with families on the connect more with families on the connect more with families on the weekends and to spend more of her time weekends and to spend more of her time weekends and to spend more of her time being strategic. And so she needs to being strategic. And so she needs to being strategic. And so she needs to duplicate another her on the weekends duplicate another her on the weekends duplicate another her on the weekends that can make sure they're facilitating that can make sure they're facilitating that can make sure they're facilitating volunteers and they're making sure volunteers and they're making sure volunteers and they're making sure people are encouraged and that teams are people are encouraged and that teams are people are encouraged and that teams are built and that people are showing up and built and that people are showing up and built and that people are showing up and schedules are being done. And it's it's schedules are being done. And it's it's schedules are being done. And it's it's high people, but it's also task and high people, but it's also task and high people, but it's also task and responsibility that comes off of her responsibility that comes off of her responsibility that comes off of her plate that frees her up to um do the plate that frees her up to um do the plate that frees her up to um do the thing that she's great at.

thing that she's great at. thing that she's great at. >> And obviously, she's given all that >> And obviously, she's given all that >> And obviously, she's given all that stuff away in this season, but now we're stuff away in this season, but now we're stuff away in this season, but now we're also using that as a developmental role also using that as a developmental role also using that as a developmental role to potentially be a kids director at to potentially be a kids director at to potentially be a kids director at another location when we launch a another location when we launch a another location when we launch a location. location. location. Yeah, there will be more hopefully more Yeah, there will be more hopefully more Yeah, there will be more hopefully more coastal locations in the future and you coastal locations in the future and you coastal locations in the future and you need to, you know, raise those people up need to, you know, raise those people up need to, you know, raise those people up now. You have the ability to do that. now. You have the ability to do that. now. You have the ability to do that. This is one way, This is one way, This is one way, >> you know, to do that as well. >> you know, to do that as well. >> you know, to do that as well. >> So, put yourself in a a say a friend >> So, put yourself in a a say a friend >> So, put yourself in a a say a friend calls, executive pastor calls and calls, executive pastor calls and calls, executive pastor calls and they're in this kind of this topic. They they're in this kind of this topic. They they're in this kind of this topic. They feel like, man, my team is perpetually feel like, man, my team is perpetually feel like, man, my team is perpetually stretched. We we added a bunch of staff stretched. We we added a bunch of staff stretched. We we added a bunch of staff last year and it just didn't help. uh last year and it just didn't help. uh last year and it just didn't help. uh you know it's like we find sure we're you know it's like we find sure we're you know it's like we find sure we're starting out the new year here and our starting out the new year here and our starting out the new year here and our headcount is up but people are as tired headcount is up but people are as tired headcount is up but people are as tired they're as burnt out as they've ever they're as burnt out as they've ever they're as burnt out as they've ever been um and it feels disproportionate it been um and it feels disproportionate it been um and it feels disproportionate it feels like oh man like I don't this feels like oh man like I don't this feels like oh man like I don't this things are not getting better what are things are not getting better what are things are not getting better what are they missing what what are what's the they missing what what are what's the they missing what what are what's the how would you coach them maybe some how would you coach them maybe some how would you coach them maybe some first steps that you would kind of help first steps that you would kind of help first steps that you would kind of help them to think about what they should be them to think about what they should be them to think about what they should be doing on this front doing on this front doing on this front >> so I think maybe first and foremost Um, >> so I think maybe first and foremost Um, >> so I think maybe first and foremost Um, I might ask, I might ask, I might ask, "What what work are you doing that "What what work are you doing that "What what work are you doing that really God never asked you to do?" First really God never asked you to do?" First really God never asked you to do?" First of all, of all, of all, >> I think we >> I think we >> I think we >> we add a lot of things um that aren't >> we add a lot of things um that aren't >> we add a lot of things um that aren't probably the best use of people's times.

probably the best use of people's times. probably the best use of people's times. And so where have we added things that And so where have we added things that And so where have we added things that we didn't need to add that aren't adding we didn't need to add that aren't adding we didn't need to add that aren't adding value value value >> that can number one lift something off >> that can number one lift something off >> that can number one lift something off of our team that maybe they don't of our team that maybe they don't of our team that maybe they don't >> just you know doesn't add value. >> just you know doesn't add value. >> just you know doesn't add value. >> And so that would probably be one of the >> And so that would probably be one of the >> And so that would probably be one of the first places I would start was like what first places I would start was like what first places I would start was like what are what are you working on that God are what are you working on that God are what are you working on that God hasn't asked you to do? hasn't asked you to do? hasn't asked you to do? >> Um >> Um >> Um >> yeah what can we streamline? What do we >> yeah what can we streamline? What do we >> yeah what can we streamline? What do we need to pull back? Yeah. need to pull back? Yeah. need to pull back? Yeah. >> Exactly. And then >> Exactly. And then >> Exactly. And then >> um >> um >> um secondarily I think I would secondarily I think I would secondarily I think I would >> I think I would really focus on >> I think I would really focus on >> I think I would really focus on leaning into and this is what we've done leaning into and this is what we've done leaning into and this is what we've done in in many seasons is we've leaned into in in many seasons is we've leaned into in in many seasons is we've leaned into two things. Um number one is starting to two things. Um number one is starting to two things. Um number one is starting to ask our team like hey who's who's around ask our team like hey who's who's around ask our team like hey who's who's around you that you're developing? I need you you that you're developing? I need you you that you're developing? I need you to pick three people, you know, and just to pick three people, you know, and just to pick three people, you know, and just start pouring into them. I know this start pouring into them. I know this start pouring into them. I know this this isn't a >> I know this doesn't lift the uh load >> I know this doesn't lift the uh load >> necessarily in the moment, but I think >> necessarily in the moment, but I think >> necessarily in the moment, but I think it can help lift it for the future. So, it can help lift it for the future. So, it can help lift it for the future. So, it's like, hey, how am I teaching my it's like, hey, how am I teaching my it's like, hey, how am I teaching my staff to look for other leaders and staff to look for other leaders and staff to look for other leaders and developing those leaders? Um, developing those leaders? Um, developing those leaders? Um, and the other question just went away and the other question just went away and the other question just went away from my mind. Um, from my mind. Um, from my mind. Um, >> well, that's a great one though. This

>> well, that's a great one though. This >> well, that's a great one though. This even it's the idea of who are the two or even it's the idea of who are the two or even it's the idea of who are the two or three people that you're developing. Um, three people that you're developing. Um, three people that you're developing. Um, man, that's a powerful idea because I man, that's a powerful idea because I man, that's a powerful idea because I think there's I think particularly if think there's I think particularly if think there's I think particularly if you're a church that's caught in this you're a church that's caught in this you're a church that's caught in this treadmill, treadmill, treadmill, >> um, there probably are people in your >> um, there probably are people in your >> um, there probably are people in your orbit. There are there are volunteers orbit. There are there are volunteers orbit. There are there are volunteers that would be looking for more to do that would be looking for more to do that would be looking for more to do would to look but but oftentimes our would to look but but oftentimes our would to look but but oftentimes our team we just they don't see those team we just they don't see those team we just they don't see those people. They don't because we haven't people. They don't because we haven't people. They don't because we haven't challenged them to see those people. challenged them to see those people. challenged them to see those people. >> It's it's a it's honestly a question >> It's it's a it's honestly a question >> It's it's a it's honestly a question that's a regular part of all of our that's a regular part of all of our that's a regular part of all of our teams one-on ones teams one-on ones teams one-on ones >> that one of the questions is who's next? >> that one of the questions is who's next? >> that one of the questions is who's next? >> Like you should always be replacing >> Like you should always be replacing >> Like you should always be replacing yourself. yourself. yourself. >> Yeah. And that is just a continual >> Yeah. And that is just a continual >> Yeah. And that is just a continual pipeline of people. And it's teaching pipeline of people. And it's teaching pipeline of people. And it's teaching them to see other people and develop them to see other people and develop them to see other people and develop people and they know that when I come to people and they know that when I come to people and they know that when I come to this meeting with my leader, I need to this meeting with my leader, I need to this meeting with my leader, I need to be telling them what I did, who I'm be telling them what I did, who I'm be telling them what I did, who I'm investing in, you know, what that looks investing in, you know, what that looks investing in, you know, what that looks like. Um, so that there's like a like. Um, so that there's like a like. Um, so that there's like a pipeline of leadership. And I even like pipeline of leadership. And I even like pipeline of leadership. And I even like with with my own assistant, I'll say with with my own assistant, I'll say with with my own assistant, I'll say this. She's like, she how do I do that? this. She's like, she how do I do that? this. She's like, she how do I do that? It's like I'm she's right a doer, you It's like I'm she's right a doer, you It's like I'm she's right a doer, you know? She's my assistant. But I said, know? She's my assistant. But I said, know? She's my assistant. But I said, honestly, the the way that there's so honestly, the the way that there's so honestly, the the way that there's so much that you can give away. You can much that you can give away. You can much that you can give away. You can build volunteer teams to execute gift build volunteer teams to execute gift build volunteer teams to execute gift baskets when a you know, like there are baskets when a you know, like there are baskets when a you know, like there are things that we just have to teach people things that we just have to teach people things that we just have to teach people to start giving away to start giving away to start giving away >> um and equipping other people to do.

>> um and equipping other people to do. >> um and equipping other people to do. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And I think it's why I don't >> And I think it's why I don't >> And I think it's why I don't >> I don't use like being a large church >> I don't use like being a large church >> I don't use like being a large church with a small staff as like a bragging with a small staff as like a bragging with a small staff as like a bragging thing because I I don't think that thing because I I don't think that thing because I I don't think that that's necessarily healthy. long term, that's necessarily healthy. long term, that's necessarily healthy. long term, >> but I think that it's very strategic in >> but I think that it's very strategic in >> but I think that it's very strategic in how how how >> we have built a volunteer culture that >> we have built a volunteer culture that >> we have built a volunteer culture that is very high capacity and shows up and is very high capacity and shows up and is very high capacity and shows up and gets it done because we simply just gets it done because we simply just gets it done because we simply just haven't said no and we've always looked haven't said no and we've always looked haven't said no and we've always looked for somebody else to come up underneath for somebody else to come up underneath for somebody else to come up underneath us. us. us. >> Yeah, that's good. I know for for me in >> Yeah, that's good. I know for for me in >> Yeah, that's good. I know for for me in seasons when I led in fast growing seasons when I led in fast growing seasons when I led in fast growing churches, churches that were deemed as churches, churches that were deemed as churches, churches that were deemed as some of the fastest growing churches in some of the fastest growing churches in some of the fastest growing churches in the country, I would say to my um now I the country, I would say to my um now I the country, I would say to my um now I sat in a different seat than you were sat in a different seat than you were sat in a different seat than you were cuz I was never like a founding team cuz I was never like a founding team cuz I was never like a founding team member. Well, that's not actually true. member. Well, that's not actually true. member. Well, that's not actually true. That's not actually true. I was in one That's not actually true. I was in one That's not actually true. I was in one church, but um but I always tried to church, but um but I always tried to church, but um but I always tried to hold my role with open hands. Even with hold my role with open hands. Even with hold my role with open hands. Even with my team, I would say, listen, the the my team, I would say, listen, the the my team, I would say, listen, the the people that I don't I don't want to get people that I don't I don't want to get people that I don't I don't want to get in the way of the mission. the mission in the way of the mission. the mission in the way of the mission. the mission is bigger than my job and my role. And is bigger than my job and my role. And is bigger than my job and my role. And there might come a season when there might come a season when there might come a season when >> the ministry will outpace me and I need >> the ministry will outpace me and I need >> the ministry will outpace me and I need to be willing to step aside. And that to be willing to step aside. And that to be willing to step aside. And that whenever I said that there was always whenever I said that there was always whenever I said that there was always like freaked people out a little bit.

like freaked people out a little bit. like freaked people out a little bit. They were like, "Oh my goodness, what They were like, "Oh my goodness, what They were like, "Oh my goodness, what are you saying? What are you saying?" are you saying? What are you saying?" are you saying? What are you saying?" But I I I do think that But I I I do think that But I I I do think that >> those people that got us here may not >> those people that got us here may not >> those people that got us here may not necessarily be those people that will necessarily be those people that will necessarily be those people that will get us there. I'd love to hear your get us there. I'd love to hear your get us there. I'd love to hear your thoughts on that. And and this does not thoughts on that. And and this does not thoughts on that. And and this does not apply to any of the 25 people currently apply to any of the 25 people currently apply to any of the 25 people currently employed at Coastal Church. Uh but help employed at Coastal Church. Uh but help employed at Coastal Church. Uh but help us understand. us understand. us understand. >> We've had this conversation with all of >> We've had this conversation with all of >> We've had this conversation with all of them. them. them. >> Oh, good. Okay. Okay. >> Oh, good. Okay. Okay. >> Oh, good. Okay. Okay. >> Okay. Good. I didn't want to un you know >> Okay. Good. I didn't want to un you know >> Okay. Good. I didn't want to un you know have people listen to it at your church have people listen to it at your church have people listen to it at your church and be like, "Oh my goodness." But help and be like, "Oh my goodness." But help and be like, "Oh my goodness." But help me understand how you think about that me understand how you think about that me understand how you think about that as a leader because I think that's a as a leader because I think that's a as a leader because I think that's a real dynamic in this area. real dynamic in this area. real dynamic in this area. >> Yeah. There's there's two two things two >> Yeah. There's there's two two things two >> Yeah. There's there's two two things two almost analogies that that I'll give almost analogies that that I'll give almost analogies that that I'll give you. One was when we were a smaller you. One was when we were a smaller you. One was when we were a smaller church, we were a growing church. we church, we were a growing church. we church, we were a growing church. we were were were >> um a church plant and somebody gave us >> um a church plant and somebody gave us >> um a church plant and somebody gave us some some great advice and they said some some great advice and they said some some great advice and they said listen the people you start with are not listen the people you start with are not listen the people you start with are not going to be the people you finish with going to be the people you finish with going to be the people you finish with and that's not and that's not and that's not >> a bad thing um >> a bad thing um >> a bad thing um >> that that happens and they said when you >> that that happens and they said when you >> that that happens and they said when you are building something are building something are building something >> there's a phase of that building that >> there's a phase of that building that >> there's a phase of that building that requires scaffolding and scaffolding requires scaffolding and scaffolding requires scaffolding and scaffolding serves a purpose in that season serves a purpose in that season serves a purpose in that season >> to build the structure and the walls and >> to build the structure and the walls and >> to build the structure and the walls and and all of the things but there is a and all of the things but there is a and all of the things but there is a point where that scaffolding has to come point where that scaffolding has to come point where that scaffolding has to come down down down >> in order for you to utilize that >> in order for you to utilize that >> in order for you to utilize that building or that space effectively. And building or that space effectively. And building or that space effectively. And I think sometimes that's I think sometimes that's I think sometimes that's >> people in a way like they serve a >> people in a way like they serve a >> people in a way like they serve a purpose for a season, but it's not like purpose for a season, but it's not like purpose for a season, but it's not like it's not like oh now they can't serve in it's not like oh now they can't serve in it's not like oh now they can't serve in any capacity or any way. It's just that any capacity or any way. It's just that any capacity or any way. It's just that >> the role that they played for that >> the role that they played for that >> the role that they played for that season season season >> was very important,

>> was very important, >> was very important, >> but it looks different in the next >> but it looks different in the next >> but it looks different in the next season and we have to be okay with that season and we have to be okay with that season and we have to be okay with that if we want to continue to grow. if we want to continue to grow. if we want to continue to grow. as we've grown. There was actually as we've grown. There was actually as we've grown. There was actually people probably know the name Charlotte people probably know the name Charlotte people probably know the name Charlotte Gamble. Charlotte Gamble has invested a Gamble. Charlotte Gamble has invested a Gamble. Charlotte Gamble has invested a lot um in our team and in in our church lot um in our team and in in our church lot um in our team and in in our church and she came in and did a a session with and she came in and did a a session with and she came in and did a a session with us. And one of the things that she us. And one of the things that she us. And one of the things that she talked with us about is like if you talked with us about is like if you talked with us about is like if you think about a vehicle, right, and that think about a vehicle, right, and that think about a vehicle, right, and that vehicle is there to get you to the vehicle is there to get you to the vehicle is there to get you to the destination of where you're going destination of where you're going destination of where you're going >> and that vehicle has tires. >> and that vehicle has tires. >> and that vehicle has tires. >> Mhm. Mhm. >> Mhm. Mhm. >> Mhm. Mhm. >> And those tires have to be rotated, >> And those tires have to be rotated, >> And those tires have to be rotated, >> right? Oh, that's >> right? Oh, that's >> right? Oh, that's >> And as a team member, you are like a >> And as a team member, you are like a >> And as a team member, you are like a tire and what you are doing is getting tire and what you are doing is getting tire and what you are doing is getting that vehicle to the proper destination. that vehicle to the proper destination. that vehicle to the proper destination. >> But if you don't allow yourself to be >> But if you don't allow yourself to be >> But if you don't allow yourself to be rotated, rotated, rotated, then there's going to be a problem in then there's going to be a problem in then there's going to be a problem in getting that vehicle to the location. getting that vehicle to the location. getting that vehicle to the location. >> And so language that we use is this is >> And so language that we use is this is >> And so language that we use is this is mission over position. And your position mission over position. And your position mission over position. And your position may change, your position may rotate, may change, your position may rotate, may change, your position may rotate, >> but this is not about your position.

>> but this is not about your position. >> but this is not about your position. This is about your mission. And if This is about your mission. And if This is about your mission. And if you're not here because of the mission, you're not here because of the mission, you're not here because of the mission, >> then you're going to be fixated on your >> then you're going to be fixated on your >> then you're going to be fixated on your position. And so our team knows that. We position. And so our team knows that. We position. And so our team knows that. We we talk about that very frequently, we talk about that very frequently, we talk about that very frequently, like, hey, remember this is mission over like, hey, remember this is mission over like, hey, remember this is mission over position and we're going to we're going position and we're going to we're going position and we're going to we're going to rotate the tire today. to rotate the tire today. to rotate the tire today. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> But this is because this is for the >> But this is because this is for the >> But this is because this is for the mission. mission. mission. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Not because of your position. And so we >> Not because of your position. And so we >> Not because of your position. And so we just consistently have those just consistently have those just consistently have those conversations. And if we if we don't conversations. And if we if we don't conversations. And if we if we don't rotate those things and if there's rotate those things and if there's rotate those things and if there's something that's worn out and we don't something that's worn out and we don't something that's worn out and we don't change it, change it, change it, >> it's going to affect the mission of >> it's going to affect the mission of >> it's going to affect the mission of where that organization is going. where that organization is going. where that organization is going. >> Yeah, it's so true. >> Yeah, it's so true. >> Yeah, it's so true. >> That's good. That's that's worth the >> That's good. That's that's worth the >> That's good. That's that's worth the price of admission right there. I think, price of admission right there. I think, price of admission right there. I think, you know, I think so many of us um you you know, I think so many of us um you you know, I think so many of us um you know, people who are listening in, they know, people who are listening in, they know, people who are listening in, they church leaders, they love people. They church leaders, they love people. They church leaders, they love people. They want to see them take steps towards want to see them take steps towards want to see them take steps towards Jesus. And you know, we hold on to Jesus. And you know, we hold on to Jesus. And you know, we hold on to people too long or we or we, you know, people too long or we or we, you know, people too long or we or we, you know, we always believe the best. We're like, we always believe the best. We're like, we always believe the best. We're like, "No, they're going to get there. They're "No, they're going to get there. They're "No, they're going to get there. They're going to get there." But what would you going to get there." But what would you going to get there." But what would you say to a leader? You know, give us some say to a leader? You know, give us some say to a leader? You know, give us some courage to say, "Hey, maybe there's a courage to say, "Hey, maybe there's a courage to say, "Hey, maybe there's a team member we need to rotate. Either team member we need to rotate. Either team member we need to rotate. Either find a different seat on the bus or it find a different seat on the bus or it find a different seat on the bus or it might be we we need to move them off might be we we need to move them off might be we we need to move them off this year. like we need to get them on a this year. like we need to get them on a this year. like we need to get them on a performance improvement plan and do the performance improvement plan and do the performance improvement plan and do the like, hey, you're not leaving today, but like, hey, you're not leaving today, but like, hey, you're not leaving today, but it's like this has got to change. You've it's like this has got to change. You've it's like this has got to change. You've got to shift from being a doer to being got to shift from being a doer to being got to shift from being a doer to being an equipper and we're going to work on an equipper and we're going to work on an equipper and we're going to work on this for the next 3 months, but we need this for the next 3 months, but we need this for the next 3 months, but we need to see we actually need to see progress to see we actually need to see progress to see we actually need to see progress on this. Give us some courage to do

on this. Give us some courage to do on this. Give us some courage to do that. Talk us through that. if that's that. Talk us through that. if that's that. Talk us through that. if that's the if that's the leader that's the if that's the leader that's the if that's the leader that's listening in today. listening in today. listening in today. >> I mean, I think first of all, if you're >> I mean, I think first of all, if you're >> I mean, I think first of all, if you're sensing that and you're feeling that, sensing that and you're feeling that, sensing that and you're feeling that, um, you need to start having some very um, you need to start having some very um, you need to start having some very honest conversations. Um, I think honest conversations. Um, I think honest conversations. Um, I think Proverbs is very clear when it says, Proverbs is very clear when it says, Proverbs is very clear when it says, "Bind mercy and truth around your neck." "Bind mercy and truth around your neck." "Bind mercy and truth around your neck." Like, we can have those truthful Like, we can have those truthful Like, we can have those truthful conversations while still being conversations while still being conversations while still being merciful. And you know, if if you're not merciful. And you know, if if you're not merciful. And you know, if if you're not clear with people, then there's just clear with people, then there's just clear with people, then there's just then there's going to be hurt, there's then there's going to be hurt, there's then there's going to be hurt, there's going to be bitterness, there's going to going to be bitterness, there's going to going to be bitterness, there's going to be all of those things. And so if you be all of those things. And so if you be all of those things. And so if you can just even start the convers if can just even start the convers if can just even start the convers if you've been frustrated for a long time, you've been frustrated for a long time, you've been frustrated for a long time, but you haven't said anything, honestly, but you haven't said anything, honestly, but you haven't said anything, honestly, it's your fault [laughter] it's your fault [laughter] it's your fault [laughter] >> because yes, >> because yes, >> because yes, >> you've allowed it for so long and now >> you've allowed it for so long and now >> you've allowed it for so long and now that's that's you've allowed behavior to that's that's you've allowed behavior to that's that's you've allowed behavior to continue. So the first step I think is continue. So the first step I think is continue. So the first step I think is just giving yourself freedom to have a just giving yourself freedom to have a just giving yourself freedom to have a mercy and truth conversation, right? Um mercy and truth conversation, right? Um mercy and truth conversation, right? Um of just going, hey, like I know your of just going, hey, like I know your of just going, hey, like I know your your heart is here. I know you have your heart is here. I know you have your heart is here. I know you have vision for this organization, but vision for this organization, but vision for this organization, but there's just some things that need to there's just some things that need to there's just some things that need to adjust.

adjust. adjust. >> And so we're going to bring some clarity >> And so we're going to bring some clarity >> And so we're going to bring some clarity to those things that need to adjust. And to those things that need to adjust. And to those things that need to adjust. And you have those conversations and then you have those conversations and then you have those conversations and then hey, let's check in a month from now and hey, let's check in a month from now and hey, let's check in a month from now and just here's some action steps for you to just here's some action steps for you to just here's some action steps for you to do. And it just gives framework for like do. And it just gives framework for like do. And it just gives framework for like okay now if they're not doing those okay now if they're not doing those okay now if they're not doing those things you're just like you know hey do things you're just like you know hey do things you're just like you know hey do you we ask the question do you get it do you we ask the question do you get it do you we ask the question do you get it do you want it and do you have the capacity you want it and do you have the capacity you want it and do you have the capacity to do it to do it to do it >> they have if they get it and they want >> they have if they get it and they want >> they have if they get it and they want it but they don't have the capacity have it but they don't have the capacity have it but they don't have the capacity have to change their seat you know um to change their seat you know um to change their seat you know um >> yeah that's good >> yeah that's good >> yeah that's good >> and so for me I think it's really >> and so for me I think it's really >> and so for me I think it's really starting off with the clarifying starting off with the clarifying starting off with the clarifying conversation conversation conversation >> if you haven't had that >> if you haven't had that >> if you haven't had that >> and >> and >> and >> that's good >> that's good >> that's good >> and that clarifying conversation leads >> and that clarifying conversation leads >> and that clarifying conversation leads to either an off-ramp or an adjustment to either an off-ramp or an adjustment to either an off-ramp or an adjustment of seat. of seat. of seat. >> Yep. Yeah, that's so good. I I know that >> Yep. Yeah, that's so good. I I know that >> Yep. Yeah, that's so good. I I know that there are people who are listening in there are people who are listening in there are people who are listening in who that, you know, like, hey, I've got who that, you know, like, hey, I've got who that, you know, like, hey, I've got to make a change. I have this staff to make a change. I have this staff to make a change. I have this staff member, team member that's got to make a member, team member that's got to make a member, team member that's got to make a change. We can't do this for another change. We can't do this for another change. We can't do this for another year. Um, and even that idea of sitting year. Um, and even that idea of sitting year. Um, and even that idea of sitting down, having a, you know, a truthful but down, having a, you know, a truthful but down, having a, you know, a truthful but merciful conversation and doing exactly merciful conversation and doing exactly merciful conversation and doing exactly what Shayla said there. Let's have the what Shayla said there. Let's have the what Shayla said there. Let's have the conversation and then document it.

conversation and then document it. conversation and then document it. Here's exactly what we talked about. Here's exactly what we talked about. Here's exactly what we talked about. Here are the three or four things that Here are the three or four things that Here are the three or four things that we need to see progress in the next we need to see progress in the next we need to see progress in the next month on and we love you dearly, but in month on and we love you dearly, but in month on and we love you dearly, but in a month we're going to come back and a month we're going to come back and a month we're going to come back and actually ask you on that. actually ask you on that. actually ask you on that. >> My experience has been when you have >> My experience has been when you have >> My experience has been when you have that. Yeah, go ahead. that. Yeah, go ahead. that. Yeah, go ahead. >> Even asking at the end of that, like, >> Even asking at the end of that, like, >> Even asking at the end of that, like, hey, do you have any questions? or even hey, do you have any questions? or even hey, do you have any questions? or even repeat back to me what you heard what repeat back to me what you heard what repeat back to me what you heard what you what you heard cuz I want I want to you what you heard cuz I want I want to you what you heard cuz I want I want to understand how you're receiving understand how you're receiving understand how you're receiving >> the information that I just gave you >> the information that I just gave you >> the information that I just gave you because it can help you because it can help you because it can help you >> even go a little bit deeper in shaping >> even go a little bit deeper in shaping >> even go a little bit deeper in shaping that that that >> clarify it. Yeah, that's so good. Well, >> clarify it. Yeah, that's so good. Well, >> clarify it. Yeah, that's so good. Well, this has been a great conversation um this has been a great conversation um this has been a great conversation um question that's not really it's just question that's not really it's just question that's not really it's just kind of a broader question. Okay. Uh kind of a broader question. Okay. Uh kind of a broader question. Okay. Uh about this coming year. What are the about this coming year. What are the about this coming year. What are the what are the questions that are kicking what are the questions that are kicking what are the questions that are kicking around in your head for this year as you around in your head for this year as you around in your head for this year as you look to 2026 as we come to kind of close look to 2026 as we come to kind of close look to 2026 as we come to kind of close today's episode. What are you thinking today's episode. What are you thinking today's episode. What are you thinking about? Might be around this. It might be about? Might be around this. It might be about? Might be around this. It might be around other stuff. Uh what are you around other stuff. Uh what are you around other stuff. Uh what are you thinking about this year? thinking about this year? thinking about this year? >> Oo, I was actually talking to my husband >> Oo, I was actually talking to my husband >> Oo, I was actually talking to my husband about this. We're getting ready to go about this. We're getting ready to go about this. We're getting ready to go into a leadership team meeting and the into a leadership team meeting and the into a leadership team meeting and the thing that's just been sitting in my thing that's just been sitting in my thing that's just been sitting in my head and this is so probably head and this is so probably head and this is so probably counterintuitive to large church but counterintuitive to large church but counterintuitive to large church but it's how can I grow smaller?

it's how can I grow smaller? it's how can I grow smaller? >> That's good. >> That's good. >> That's good. >> And >> And >> And so I'm just trying to think how can we so I'm just trying to think how can we so I'm just trying to think how can we be more intentional as we grow to make a be more intentional as we grow to make a be more intentional as we grow to make a large church feel small. Um, and then large church feel small. Um, and then large church feel small. Um, and then I'm also thinking, are we building a I'm also thinking, are we building a I'm also thinking, are we building a church that can grow without us? church that can grow without us? church that can grow without us? >> Um, >> Um, >> Um, >> so how, you know, is it only because of >> so how, you know, is it only because of >> so how, you know, is it only because of us that things are happening or how are us that things are happening or how are us that things are happening or how are we again we again we again >> equipping people that if we weren't >> equipping people that if we weren't >> equipping people that if we weren't here, it would continue on? here, it would continue on? here, it would continue on? >> So I love that. >> So I love that. >> So I love that. >> How do I grow smaller and would they >> How do I grow smaller and would they >> How do I grow smaller and would they survive without us? survive without us? survive without us? >> Wow, those are two super profound >> Wow, those are two super profound >> Wow, those are two super profound questions and they are so totally questions and they are so totally questions and they are so totally related to what we're talking about related to what we're talking about related to what we're talking about today. Both of those. you're only going today. Both of those. you're only going today. Both of those. you're only going to get to it feeling smaller. Um, you to get to it feeling smaller. Um, you to get to it feeling smaller. Um, you know, that is I that is the great irony know, that is I that is the great irony know, that is I that is the great irony of a growing church. I've said that to of a growing church. I've said that to of a growing church. I've said that to many. I didn't I wasn't as eloquent as many. I didn't I wasn't as eloquent as many. I didn't I wasn't as eloquent as you were there, but one of the the you were there, but one of the the you were there, but one of the the interesting kind of tensions is when you interesting kind of tensions is when you interesting kind of tensions is when you become a church of 5,000, 10,000, become a church of 5,000, 10,000, become a church of 5,000, 10,000, 15,000, you get around those circles. 15,000, you get around those circles. 15,000, you get around those circles. Those churches are asking the how do we Those churches are asking the how do we Those churches are asking the how do we be more intimate? How do we um you know be more intimate? How do we um you know be more intimate? How do we um you know we okay so we figured out how to gather we okay so we figured out how to gather we okay so we figured out how to gather crowds and but how do we go beyond that crowds and but how do we go beyond that crowds and but how do we go beyond that right how do we how do we now you know right how do we how do we now you know right how do we how do we now you know really drive into deeper more intimate really drive into deeper more intimate really drive into deeper more intimate conversations I love that conversations I love that conversations I love that >> systems systems just complicate things >> systems systems just complicate things >> systems systems just complicate things so it's like how do you how do you so it's like how do you how do you so it's like how do you how do you simplify you know simplify you know simplify you know >> yeah it's so good [snorts] >> yeah it's so good [snorts] >> yeah it's so good [snorts] well this has been super helpful today I well this has been super helpful today I well this has been super helpful today I really appreciate you appreciate your really appreciate you appreciate your really appreciate you appreciate your leadership and all that you're doing and leadership and all that you're doing and leadership and all that you're doing and how you helped us today and um if people

how you helped us today and um if people how you helped us today and um if people want to track with you or with the want to track with you or with the want to track with you or with the church. Where do we want to send them church. Where do we want to send them church. Where do we want to send them online? online? online? >> Yeah, they can follow our church on >> Yeah, they can follow our church on >> Yeah, they can follow our church on Instagram. It's @ coastalurch or visit Instagram. It's @ coastalurch or visit Instagram. It's @ coastalurch or visit our website coastal community.tv. our website coastal community.tv. our website coastal community.tv. I'm not super active on Instagram, but I'm not super active on Instagram, but I'm not super active on Instagram, but you can follow me if you want to. Shayla you can follow me if you want to. Shayla you can follow me if you want to. Shayla McCormack. McCormack. McCormack. >> That's great, Shayla. I really >> That's great, Shayla. I really >> That's great, Shayla. I really appreciate you being here today and uh appreciate you being here today and uh appreciate you being here today and uh thanks so much for helping us out as we thanks so much for helping us out as we thanks so much for helping us out as we kick off 2026. kick off 2026. kick off 2026. >> Of course. Thanks so much, Rich.