Carey Nieuwhof on Maintaining Your Mission While Changing Your Method

today's on seminary resources brought to today's on seminary resources brought to you by aware three and aware three their you by aware three and aware three their you by aware three and aware three their goal is to help your church build goal is to help your church build goal is to help your church build connections using mobile technology they connections using mobile technology they connections using mobile technology they help you extend church beyond Sunday help you extend church beyond Sunday help you extend church beyond Sunday mornings by putting it in the palm of mornings by putting it in the palm of mornings by putting it in the palm of everyone's hand learn more about how a everyone's hand learn more about how a everyone's hand learn more about how a custom mobile app can help you improve custom mobile app can help you improve custom mobile app can help you improve engagement communication and generosity engagement communication and generosity engagement communication and generosity at WWE we're three that's the number at WWE we're three that's the number at WWE we're three that's the number three calm welcome to the uncie Maneri three calm welcome to the uncie Maneri three calm welcome to the uncie Maneri podcast are you looking for practical podcast are you looking for practical podcast are you looking for practical ministry help to drive our ministry ministry help to drive our ministry ministry help to drive our ministry further faster have a sinking feeling further faster have a sinking feeling further faster have a sinking feeling that your ministry training didn't that your ministry training didn't that your ministry training didn't prepare you for the real world hey prepare you for the real world hey prepare you for the real world hey you're not alone join thousands of you're not alone join thousands of you're not alone join thousands of others in pursuit of stuff that we wish others in pursuit of stuff that we wish others in pursuit of stuff that we wish they had taught in seminary buckle up they had taught in seminary buckle up they had taught in seminary buckle up and let's get started with this week's and let's get started with this week's and let's get started with this week's unsummon airy podcast hey everybody unsummon airy podcast hey everybody unsummon airy podcast hey everybody happy Thursday welcome to the unsummon happy Thursday welcome to the unsummon happy Thursday welcome to the unsummon airy podcast my name's rich the host airy podcast my name's rich the host airy podcast my name's rich the host around these parts and I am so glad that around these parts and I am so glad that around these parts and I am so glad that you've decided to tune in today today you've decided to tune in today today you've decided to tune in today today we've got Kerry new-ha finishing up our we've got Kerry new-ha finishing up our we've got Kerry new-ha finishing up our month-long exploration of church leaders month-long exploration of church leaders month-long exploration of church leaders from all over the world from all over the world from all over the world Kerry's a dear friend he's the founding Kerry's a dear friend he's the founding Kerry's a dear friend he's the founding and teaching pastor at connects his and teaching pastor at connects his and teaching pastor at connects his church just north of Toronto and today church just north of Toronto and today church just north of Toronto and today he's talking about really what I think he's talking about really what I think he's talking about really what I think is core content for all of us to wrestle is core content for all of us to wrestle is core content for all of us to wrestle through which is how do we stay true to through which is how do we stay true to through which is how do we stay true to our mission while changing our methods our mission while changing our methods our mission while changing our methods and I just love everything that Kerry and I just love everything that Kerry and I just love everything that Kerry had to share in this interview now had to share in this interview now had to share in this interview now listen folks next Tuesday November 1st listen folks next Tuesday November 1st listen folks next Tuesday November 1st I'm launching my very first book it's I'm launching my very first book it's I'm launching my very first book it's called unreasonable churches ten called unreasonable churches ten called unreasonable churches ten churches who zag to one other Zig and churches who zag to one other Zig and churches who zag to one other Zig and saw more impact because of it it's

saw more impact because of it it's saw more impact because of it it's appropriate that we've got Kerry on the appropriate that we've got Kerry on the appropriate that we've got Kerry on the podcast today because he wrote this podcast today because he wrote this podcast today because he wrote this really nice super kind forward to the really nice super kind forward to the really nice super kind forward to the book where he I love his opening line book where he I love his opening line book where he I love his opening line which is hey this is a bit of a which is hey this is a bit of a which is hey this is a bit of a dangerous book sometimes as church dangerous book sometimes as church dangerous book sometimes as church leaders we talk ourselves out of leaders we talk ourselves out of leaders we talk ourselves out of progress by offering a series of excuses progress by offering a series of excuses progress by offering a series of excuses and justifications that leaves us and justifications that leaves us and justifications that leaves us exactly where we are stuck that's how he exactly where we are stuck that's how he exactly where we are stuck that's how he opens up his foreword to my book opens up his foreword to my book opens up his foreword to my book unreasonable churches and I would love unreasonable churches and I would love unreasonable churches and I would love for you to pick up a copy you can do for you to pick up a copy you can do for you to pick up a copy you can do that starting Tuesday November 1st you that starting Tuesday November 1st you that starting Tuesday November 1st you can do that on Amazon you can do that at can do that on Amazon you can do that at can do that on Amazon you can do that at unreasonable churches dot-com you can unreasonable churches dot-com you can unreasonable churches dot-com you can also do that on my site a ton seminary also do that on my site a ton seminary also do that on my site a ton seminary comm you'll find links on there comm you'll find links on there comm you'll find links on there that and this this book is really that and this this book is really that and this this book is really designed for you and your team to designed for you and your team to designed for you and your team to process and work through together each process and work through together each process and work through together each of the chapters is really a different of the chapters is really a different of the chapters is really a different idea that I think you should be idea that I think you should be idea that I think you should be wrestling through as a team and not that wrestling through as a team and not that wrestling through as a team and not that you want to replicate what these 10 you want to replicate what these 10 you want to replicate what these 10 churches did but really use it as an churches did but really use it as an churches did but really use it as an inspiration for you to be thinking about inspiration for you to be thinking about inspiration for you to be thinking about what you should do at your church and what you should do at your church and what you should do at your church and really as a as a starting point for really as a as a starting point for really as a as a starting point for discussion and so what we've wanted to discussion and so what we've wanted to discussion and so what we've wanted to do what we've done is we've put together do what we've done is we've put together do what we've done is we've put together a package we're calling it the team a package we're calling it the team a package we're calling it the team edition if you buy two or more copies of edition if you buy two or more copies of edition if you buy two or more copies of it and email your receipt to team at it and email your receipt to team at it and email your receipt to team at unreasonable churches comm we're gonna unreasonable churches comm we're gonna unreasonable churches comm we're gonna send back to you send back to you send back to you PDFs of these these printable PDFs which PDFs of these these printable PDFs which PDFs of these these printable PDFs which are discussion printables that you can are discussion printables that you can are discussion printables that you can use to use with your team to really use to use with your team to really use to use with your team to really guide your team through conversation and guide your team through conversation and guide your team through conversation and we're also going to give you a free we're also going to give you a free we're also going to give you a free audio book version of it I know some audio book version of it I know some audio book version of it I know some people would rather listen to the audio

people would rather listen to the audio people would rather listen to the audio book than read it and so those two book than read it and so those two book than read it and so those two together will help you use it as a team together will help you use it as a team together will help you use it as a team so I would be honored if you'd buy two so I would be honored if you'd buy two so I would be honored if you'd buy two or more copies it makes a great or more copies it makes a great or more copies it makes a great Christmas gift and again I did this Christmas gift and again I did this Christmas gift and again I did this because I want to motivate your church because I want to motivate your church because I want to motivate your church to really think about something new but to really think about something new but to really think about something new but you know what without further ado let's you know what without further ado let's you know what without further ado let's join our interview now with Carrie new join our interview now with Carrie new join our interview now with Carrie new Huff I was so honored that he took some Huff I was so honored that he took some Huff I was so honored that he took some time out to be on the show I love him time out to be on the show I love him time out to be on the show I love him he's a dear friend and let's listen in he's a dear friend and let's listen in he's a dear friend and let's listen in to what Carrie has to say this is the to what Carrie has to say this is the to what Carrie has to say this is the uncie Maneri podcast stuff you wish they uncie Maneri podcast stuff you wish they uncie Maneri podcast stuff you wish they taught in seminary hey it's great to be taught in seminary hey it's great to be taught in seminary hey it's great to be here rich thanks so much for having me here rich thanks so much for having me here rich thanks so much for having me oh it's always nice to connect with you oh it's always nice to connect with you oh it's always nice to connect with you well Carrie is you know for folks who well Carrie is you know for folks who well Carrie is you know for folks who listen you know I'm a Canadian I've listen you know I'm a Canadian I've listen you know I'm a Canadian I've talked about that in the past you know talked about that in the past you know talked about that in the past you know most of the people who listen to the most of the people who listen to the most of the people who listen to the show vast majority I think it's ninety show vast majority I think it's ninety show vast majority I think it's ninety five might even be more than that our five might even be more than that our five might even be more than that our American and but I've loved serving in American and but I've loved serving in American and but I've loved serving in the States love being a part of of that the States love being a part of of that the States love being a part of of that culture Carrie has continued to serve in culture Carrie has continued to serve in culture Carrie has continued to serve in in Canada and so really is the Canadian in Canada and so really is the Canadian in Canada and so really is the Canadian expert in the room today so Carrie well expert in the room today so Carrie well expert in the room today so Carrie well yes don't have my Canadian sure anomaly yes don't have my Canadian sure anomaly yes don't have my Canadian sure anomaly yes the Canadian idea that's very nice yes the Canadian idea that's very nice yes the Canadian idea that's very nice that for the True North strong and free that for the True North strong and free that for the True North strong and free why don't we start by you know as we've why don't we start by you know as we've why don't we start by you know as we've been asking people give us a sense of been asking people give us a sense of been asking people give us a sense of the kind of spiritual climate of your the kind of spiritual climate of your the kind of spiritual climate of your country of Canada give us kind of a country of Canada give us kind of a country of Canada give us kind of a sense of what that looks like yeah well sense of what that looks like yeah well sense of what that looks like yeah well you know I spent a lot of time in the US you know I spent a lot of time in the US you know I spent a lot of time in the US as well they occasionally let me out of as well they occasionally let me out of as well they occasionally let me out of Canada and one thing one thing Canada and one thing one thing Canada and one thing one thing I noticed and I've spent time in Europe I noticed and I've spent time in Europe I noticed and I've spent time in Europe we're building into church leaders on a we're building into church leaders on a we're building into church leaders on a couple of occasions and sometime couple of occasions and sometime couple of occasions and sometime vacationing there with my family and I vacationing there with my family and I vacationing there with my family and I think Canada is really a hybrid between

think Canada is really a hybrid between think Canada is really a hybrid between Europe in the United States one of the Europe in the United States one of the Europe in the United States one of the analogies that helps me apparently this analogies that helps me apparently this analogies that helps me apparently this is true but a hundred years ago when you is true but a hundred years ago when you is true but a hundred years ago when you were in a coal mine you always had a were in a coal mine you always had a were in a coal mine you always had a canary there and apparently Canaries are canary there and apparently Canaries are canary there and apparently Canaries are much more sensitive to toxic gas than much more sensitive to toxic gas than much more sensitive to toxic gas than humans are so you know the workers would humans are so you know the workers would humans are so you know the workers would be working around then all of a sudden be working around then all of a sudden be working around then all of a sudden buddy over there drops dead it's like oh buddy over there drops dead it's like oh buddy over there drops dead it's like oh we should get out of the mine but you we should get out of the mine but you we should get out of the mine but you have a canary in the mind because the have a canary in the mind because the have a canary in the mind because the canary will die before it really is canary will die before it really is canary will die before it really is lethal to humans so you check the canary lethal to humans so you check the canary lethal to humans so you check the canary every once awhile it's like Canaries every once awhile it's like Canaries every once awhile it's like Canaries Keeling over it's time to get out of the Keeling over it's time to get out of the Keeling over it's time to get out of the mine so we're the canary in the coal mine so we're the canary in the coal mine so we're the canary in the coal mine we we I think are depending on your mine we we I think are depending on your mine we we I think are depending on your region in the u.s. like your Union in region in the u.s. like your Union in region in the u.s. like your Union in New England I think you you can identify New England I think you you can identify New England I think you you can identify with the Canadian landscape a little bit with the Canadian landscape a little bit with the Canadian landscape a little bit better if you're in Georgia or Texas better if you're in Georgia or Texas better if you're in Georgia or Texas probably not so much if you're anywhere probably not so much if you're anywhere probably not so much if you're anywhere near a Bible Belt near a Bible Belt near a Bible Belt you know Canada is probably 10 to 15 you know Canada is probably 10 to 15 you know Canada is probably 10 to 15 years ahead or behind where you are years ahead or behind where you are years ahead or behind where you are depending on how you look at it right depending on how you look at it right depending on how you look at it right absolutely in terms of being postmodern absolutely in terms of being postmodern absolutely in terms of being postmodern post-christian pretty much post post-christian pretty much post post-christian pretty much post everything so for example you know last everything so for example you know last everything so for example you know last year was the big decision by the Supreme year was the big decision by the Supreme year was the big decision by the Supreme Court of the United States on same-sex Court of the United States on same-sex Court of the United States on same-sex marriage in the United States so that marriage in the United States so that marriage in the United States so that happened in our country a decade ago happened in our country a decade ago happened in our country a decade ago right and so and and and when you look right and so and and and when you look right and so and and and when you look at a lot of barniz research David at a lot of barniz research David at a lot of barniz research David Kinnaman stuff on Millennials and sort Kinnaman stuff on Millennials and sort Kinnaman stuff on Millennials and sort of their spiritual attitudes and how I of their spiritual attitudes and how I of their spiritual attitudes and how I think 48% of Millennials are post think 48% of Millennials are post think 48% of Millennials are post Christian in the United States well a Christian in the United States well a Christian in the United States well a millennial mindset is more like a baby

millennial mindset is more like a baby millennial mindset is more like a baby boomer mindset in Canada to the point boomer mindset in Canada to the point boomer mindset in Canada to the point that we have been thinking that way for that we have been thinking that way for that we have been thinking that way for two or three generations and so the two or three generations and so the two or three generations and so the church is really a minority I mean it's church is really a minority I mean it's church is really a minority I mean it's just not expected kind of like New just not expected kind of like New just not expected kind of like New England or Seattle that anybody you know England or Seattle that anybody you know England or Seattle that anybody you know goes to church you know most of the goes to church you know most of the goes to church you know most of the traffic on Sunday morning if there is traffic on Sunday morning if there is traffic on Sunday morning if there is traffic is to the mall or to the beach traffic is to the mall or to the beach traffic is to the mall or to the beach or to the ski hill and Sundays have or to the ski hill and Sundays have or to the ski hill and Sundays have really drifted off the radar screen of really drifted off the radar screen of really drifted off the radar screen of most people living in our country and so most people living in our country and so most people living in our country and so you see you know the disappearance of you see you know the disappearance of you see you know the disappearance of collective guilt collective guilt collective guilt nobody really feels guilty about not nobody really feels guilty about not nobody really feels guilty about not being in being in being in Church the question isn't hey what Church the question isn't hey what Church the question isn't hey what church do you go to which is still church do you go to which is still church do you go to which is still actually true in some cities even like actually true in some cities even like actually true in some cities even like Atlanta the assumption is you probably Atlanta the assumption is you probably Atlanta the assumption is you probably are affiliated with some church whereas are affiliated with some church whereas are affiliated with some church whereas in Canada that's really unique I'll give in Canada that's really unique I'll give in Canada that's really unique I'll give you I give you a very interesting you I give you a very interesting you I give you a very interesting example I was flying back from Atlanta example I was flying back from Atlanta example I was flying back from Atlanta last Friday or Saturday actually and I last Friday or Saturday actually and I last Friday or Saturday actually and I had this guy who who was probably in his had this guy who who was probably in his had this guy who who was probably in his very early 20s sitting next to me on the very early 20s sitting next to me on the very early 20s sitting next to me on the plane and so you know I'm looking at his plane and so you know I'm looking at his plane and so you know I'm looking at his laptop he's looking at mine and as we're laptop he's looking at mine and as we're laptop he's looking at mine and as we're descending I'm like hey so you're a descending I'm like hey so you're a descending I'm like hey so you're a coder he's like yeah I'm a coder he goes coder he's like yeah I'm a coder he goes coder he's like yeah I'm a coder he goes what do you do so I tell him you know what do you do so I tell him you know what do you do so I tell him you know help church leaders I'm a church leader help church leaders I'm a church leader help church leaders I'm a church leader and he he goes where he had a church in and he he goes where he had a church in and he he goes where he had a church in in Atlanta and I said yeah and this guy in Atlanta and I said yeah and this guy in Atlanta and I said yeah and this guy does not look like a church-going guy does not look like a church-going guy does not look like a church-going guy right right at all he's got the nose right right at all he's got the nose right right at all he's got the nose ring he's actually heading to Tokyo to ring he's actually heading to Tokyo to ring he's actually heading to Tokyo to play and compete in the World play and compete in the World play and compete in the World Championships for this card game so you Championships for this card game so you Championships for this card game so you don't / yeah yeah yeah fascinating guy don't / yeah yeah yeah fascinating guy don't / yeah yeah yeah fascinating guy yeah and he says what church do you go yeah and he says what church do you go yeah and he says what church do you go to and I'm like I I was at Northpoint

to and I'm like I I was at Northpoint to and I'm like I I was at Northpoint and he goes I knew you were gonna say and he goes I knew you were gonna say and he goes I knew you were gonna say that so this 22 year old in he goes that so this 22 year old in he goes that so this 22 year old in he goes that's the church cuz he's from Atlanta that's the church cuz he's from Atlanta that's the church cuz he's from Atlanta he's from Alpharetta he goes that's the he's from Alpharetta he goes that's the he's from Alpharetta he goes that's the church that if we go to church we go to church that if we go to church we go to church that if we go to church we go to but like we haven't been there in two but like we haven't been there in two but like we haven't been there in two years and the whole deal so we talked a years and the whole deal so we talked a years and the whole deal so we talked a little bit about it but he's like yeah little bit about it but he's like yeah little bit about it but he's like yeah that's kind of my parents Church that's that's kind of my parents Church that's that's kind of my parents Church that's if I go to church I'm there and you know if I go to church I'm there and you know if I go to church I'm there and you know this is a guy who in Canada probably this is a guy who in Canada probably this is a guy who in Canada probably would not have that he would probably be would not have that he would probably be would not have that he would probably be you know he couldn't carry on the you know he couldn't carry on the you know he couldn't carry on the conversation beyond that but we had a conversation beyond that but we had a conversation beyond that but we had a really good time told him what to do really good time told him what to do really good time told him what to do while on his layover in Toronto you know while on his layover in Toronto you know while on his layover in Toronto you know wish them all the best at is his wish them all the best at is his wish them all the best at is his championship the whole deal but there's championship the whole deal but there's championship the whole deal but there's a guy who would not have any church a guy who would not have any church a guy who would not have any church background in Canada who has some kind background in Canada who has some kind background in Canada who has some kind of tangential affiliation or even knows of tangential affiliation or even knows of tangential affiliation or even knows what a North Point is mhm you know you what a North Point is mhm you know you what a North Point is mhm you know you go around bury and rally and go what's go around bury and rally and go what's go around bury and rally and go what's Connexus people would have no idea right Connexus people would have no idea right Connexus people would have no idea right or even the meeting house where you used or even the meeting house where you used or even the meeting house where you used to be you know you know people are like to be you know you know people are like to be you know you know people are like unless you're in the church world you unless you're in the church world you unless you're in the church world you just don't know just don't know just don't know right absolutely you know I think one of right absolutely you know I think one of right absolutely you know I think one of the there's an interesting parallel as the there's an interesting parallel as the there's an interesting parallel as someone who straddled the border I someone who straddled the border I someone who straddled the border I remember there seems to be a part of the remember there seems to be a part of the remember there seems to be a part of the kind of American presidential Olymp you kind of American presidential Olymp you kind of American presidential Olymp you know process I would say presidential know process I would say presidential know process I would say presidential Olympic process but presidential Olympic process but presidential Olympic process but presidential election process away that feels that election process away that feels that election process away that feels that way way way where all the candidates have to kind of where all the candidates have to kind of where all the candidates have to kind of feign some sort of religious affiliation feign some sort of religious affiliation feign some sort of religious affiliation right like they it becomes a part of right like they it becomes a part of right like they it becomes a part of their kind of their brand and I don't their kind of their brand and I don't their kind of their brand and I don't think any people really care about it think any people really care about it think any people really care about it but but it becomes like you have to at but but it becomes like you have to at but but it becomes like you have to at least say that you're Christian or or

least say that you're Christian or or least say that you're Christian or or talk about your spiritual background talk about your spiritual background talk about your spiritual background where I feel like in Canada if if a where I feel like in Canada if if a where I feel like in Canada if if a leader at that level did that it would leader at that level did that it would leader at that level did that it would actually be a detriment to their you actually be a detriment to their you actually be a detriment to their you know their political campaign it would know their political campaign it would know their political campaign it would actually hurt them Oh totally I mean you actually hurt them Oh totally I mean you actually hurt them Oh totally I mean you look at Stephen Harper our prime look at Stephen Harper our prime look at Stephen Harper our prime minister for almost a decade who was minister for almost a decade who was minister for almost a decade who was defeated last fall in 2015 in an defeated last fall in 2015 in an defeated last fall in 2015 in an election you know he is actually an election you know he is actually an election you know he is actually an evangelical Christian but like that was evangelical Christian but like that was evangelical Christian but like that was a mark against him not a mark for him a mark against him not a mark for him a mark against him not a mark for him whereas Justin Trudeau our current prime whereas Justin Trudeau our current prime whereas Justin Trudeau our current prime minister has nice hair minister has nice hair minister has nice hair and no you know he's spiritual right but and no you know he's spiritual right but and no you know he's spiritual right but not not Christian and that's a bonus not not Christian and that's a bonus not not Christian and that's a bonus because you know and that's the other because you know and that's the other because you know and that's the other thing people think well if you know in a thing people think well if you know in a thing people think well if you know in a post Christian culture is just everybody post Christian culture is just everybody post Christian culture is just everybody an agnostic or an atheist I think the an agnostic or an atheist I think the an agnostic or an atheist I think the last data I saw 76% of Canadians last data I saw 76% of Canadians last data I saw 76% of Canadians identify themselves as spiritual and you identify themselves as spiritual and you identify themselves as spiritual and you know there's a lot who are now know there's a lot who are now know there's a lot who are now non-affiliated I'll tell you a culture non-affiliated I'll tell you a culture non-affiliated I'll tell you a culture shift even in in my two decades of shift even in in my two decades of shift even in in my two decades of leadership I do the odd wedding not a leadership I do the odd wedding not a leadership I do the odd wedding not a lot but like in the beginning in the 90s lot but like in the beginning in the 90s lot but like in the beginning in the 90s in the early 2000s I would say hey rich in the early 2000s I would say hey rich in the early 2000s I would say hey rich and Christine you know what denomination and Christine you know what denomination and Christine you know what denomination are you what's your religion I think is are you what's your religion I think is are you what's your religion I think is the question and people would say the question and people would say the question and people would say Presbyterian Anglican Baptist you know Presbyterian Anglican Baptist you know Presbyterian Anglican Baptist you know Pentecostal whatever now even people go Pentecostal whatever now even people go Pentecostal whatever now even people go to our church it's at well we're to our church it's at well we're to our church it's at well we're non-denominational Church but any now non-denominational Church but any now non-denominational Church but any now but it's like Christian Christian or but it's like Christian Christian or but it's like Christian Christian or like there's no denominational like there's no denominational like there's no denominational affiliation it's either Christian or affiliation it's either Christian or affiliation it's either Christian or spiritual or nondenominational or

spiritual or nondenominational or spiritual or nondenominational or whatever so I mean that has changed so whatever so I mean that has changed so whatever so I mean that has changed so much in the last 20 years even in our much in the last 20 years even in our much in the last 20 years even in our hearing so people just don't identify hearing so people just don't identify hearing so people just don't identify and most people are spiritual like I and most people are spiritual like I and most people are spiritual like I think only 13% are atheists and the rest think only 13% are atheists and the rest think only 13% are atheists and the rest are agnostic and 76% are spiritual if my are agnostic and 76% are spiritual if my are agnostic and 76% are spiritual if my data is correct but they just don't data is correct but they just don't data is correct but they just don't think a church can help and spiritual is think a church can help and spiritual is think a church can help and spiritual is however you define it right you know however you define it right you know however you define it right you know someone might say well I kind of like a someone might say well I kind of like a someone might say well I kind of like a little little little of Buddhism and you know I was in of Buddhism and you know I was in of Buddhism and you know I was in Alcoholics Anonymous and they helped me Alcoholics Anonymous and they helped me Alcoholics Anonymous and they helped me in that spiritual and I do yoga and I in that spiritual and I do yoga and I in that spiritual and I do yoga and I tried some you know some meditation and tried some you know some meditation and tried some you know some meditation and so you know it's kind of in an American so you know it's kind of in an American so you know it's kind of in an American context kind of a Tim Ferriss Tim would context kind of a Tim Ferriss Tim would context kind of a Tim Ferriss Tim would be very very and very well in Canada be very very and very well in Canada be very very and very well in Canada yeah because he's spiritual he's yeah because he's spiritual he's yeah because he's spiritual he's experimental he's left-leaning and experimental he's left-leaning and experimental he's left-leaning and that's just where the culture is gone that's just where the culture is gone that's just where the culture is gone yeah absolutely so you know as that has yeah absolutely so you know as that has yeah absolutely so you know as that has been the context that you've you've been the context that you've you've been the context that you've you've lived in and grown in the part that I lived in and grown in the part that I lived in and grown in the part that I love one of the things I respect about love one of the things I respect about love one of the things I respect about you as a leader love about you as a you as a leader love about you as a you as a leader love about you as a leader is you really do have a you know leader is you really do have a you know leader is you really do have a you know a firm commitment to you know creating a firm commitment to you know creating a firm commitment to you know creating churches that unchurched people love to churches that unchurched people love to churches that unchurched people love to attend that that you know that's really attend that that you know that's really attend that that you know that's really been your life's work although you maybe been your life's work although you maybe been your life's work although you maybe haven't articulated it that way all the haven't articulated it that way all the haven't articulated it that way all the time that's really been you know when I time that's really been you know when I time that's really been you know when I watch the trajectory of your leadership watch the trajectory of your leadership watch the trajectory of your leadership that's been what you've been doing so that's been what you've been doing so that's been what you've been doing so how has wanting to do that how has that how has wanting to do that how has that how has wanting to do that how has that been impacted by the culture that you been impacted by the culture that you been impacted by the culture that you find yourself serving in what does that find yourself serving in what does that find yourself serving in what does that how does that work itself out in in the how does that work itself out in in the how does that work itself out in in the church that you've led oh it's been church that you've led oh it's been church that you've led oh it's been completely defining for us so we've used

completely defining for us so we've used completely defining for us so we've used the language because we're a North Point the language because we're a North Point the language because we're a North Point strategic partner Connexus church of strategic partner Connexus church of strategic partner Connexus church of creating a church that unchurched people creating a church that unchurched people creating a church that unchurched people love to attend but I can take you back love to attend but I can take you back love to attend but I can take you back to the moment rich when that message got to the moment rich when that message got to the moment rich when that message got emblazoned on my heart I mean I can take emblazoned on my heart I mean I can take emblazoned on my heart I mean I can take you to different points when I was 12 you to different points when I was 12 you to different points when I was 12 years old I wanted to translate the years old I wanted to translate the years old I wanted to translate the Bible into English that people could Bible into English that people could Bible into English that people could understand I liked I remember praying a understand I liked I remember praying a understand I liked I remember praying a prayer saying god I can understand this prayer saying god I can understand this prayer saying god I can understand this because I grew up in church but I knew because I grew up in church but I knew because I grew up in church but I knew that most of my friends can't so could I that most of my friends can't so could I that most of my friends can't so could I do this and then I remember when I was do this and then I remember when I was do this and then I remember when I was struggling with a call to ministry struggling with a call to ministry struggling with a call to ministry listening to the music that most normal listening to the music that most normal listening to the music that most normal people listen to which is not church people listen to which is not church people listen to which is not church music going gosh if church music could music going gosh if church music could music going gosh if church music could ever sound like this now I had no idea ever sound like this now I had no idea ever sound like this now I had no idea there was a Willow Creek I had no idea there was a Willow Creek I had no idea there was a Willow Creek I had no idea you know I still went to my church and you know I still went to my church and you know I still went to my church and it was organ or piano which one are we it was organ or piano which one are we it was organ or piano which one are we using today right and which hymn book using today right and which hymn book using today right and which hymn book the red or the blue I mean that that was the red or the blue I mean that that was the red or the blue I mean that that was the that was my church context but I had the that was my church context but I had the that was my church context but I had those inclinations but as a pastor a those inclinations but as a pastor a those inclinations but as a pastor a couple years into my leadership you know couple years into my leadership you know couple years into my leadership you know we started to see growth and I just had we started to see growth and I just had we started to see growth and I just had a moment we these were in the historic a moment we these were in the historic a moment we these were in the historic three Presbyterian churches that I was three Presbyterian churches that I was three Presbyterian churches that I was in and the one that was built in 1893 I in and the one that was built in 1893 I in and the one that was built in 1893 I remember standing up there on the pulpit remember standing up there on the pulpit remember standing up there on the pulpit looking out of the staying looking out of the staying looking out of the staying last little church that's at about a last little church that's at about a last little church that's at about a hundred people and I just remember being hundred people and I just remember being hundred people and I just remember being burdened while I was preaching it was burdened while I was preaching it was burdened while I was preaching it was like like a kind of a weird almost like like like a kind of a weird almost like like like a kind of a weird almost like a movie you know where something happens a movie you know where something happens a movie you know where something happens while something else is happening yes while something else is happening yes while something else is happening yes and I remember getting the strong strong and I remember getting the strong strong and I remember getting the strong strong realization that God cares more realization that God cares more realization that God cares more passionately of the people about the

passionately of the people about the passionately of the people about the people outside of the windows then he people outside of the windows then he people outside of the windows then he does the people inside the windows and I does the people inside the windows and I does the people inside the windows and I think I said it that day and I said if think I said it that day and I said if think I said it that day and I said if we're gonna reach them we have to use we're gonna reach them we have to use we're gonna reach them we have to use the culture to reach the culture and so the culture to reach the culture and so the culture to reach the culture and so that's around the time that we you know that's around the time that we you know that's around the time that we you know I knew the music was bad but it was like I knew the music was bad but it was like I knew the music was bad but it was like okay we need a five-year timeline to okay we need a five-year timeline to okay we need a five-year timeline to make it great we need to change our make it great we need to change our make it great we need to change our governance structure we need to get out governance structure we need to get out governance structure we need to get out of these buildings because mostly of these buildings because mostly of these buildings because mostly because we were outgrowing them we need because we were outgrowing them we need because we were outgrowing them we need to you know we need to do all this stuff to you know we need to do all this stuff to you know we need to do all this stuff and we if we're expecting the culture to and we if we're expecting the culture to and we if we're expecting the culture to change ha you know we're gonna wait all change ha you know we're gonna wait all change ha you know we're gonna wait all day long we we are the ones who need to day long we we are the ones who need to day long we we are the ones who need to change we're the people who need to change we're the people who need to change we're the people who need to change our preferences because what change our preferences because what change our preferences because what unites us is the gospel and Jesus death unites us is the gospel and Jesus death unites us is the gospel and Jesus death for the world what's dividing what's for the world what's dividing what's for the world what's dividing what's separating the church from the world separating the church from the world separating the church from the world right now is this really weird not very right now is this really weird not very right now is this really weird not very good Church culture that we should get good Church culture that we should get good Church culture that we should get rid of and and we should just sort of rid of and and we should just sort of rid of and and we should just sort of cooperate with the culture we can use cooperate with the culture we can use cooperate with the culture we can use the culture to reach the culture and the culture to reach the culture and the culture to reach the culture and I've used that phrase for over 20 years I've used that phrase for over 20 years I've used that phrase for over 20 years and you know what it works it really and you know what it works it really and you know what it works it really works and I think often we get we works and I think often we get we works and I think often we get we confuse the mission and the method and confuse the mission and the method and confuse the mission and the method and we just get so devoted to our method and we just get so devoted to our method and we just get so devoted to our method and you know even that right now it can you know even that right now it can you know even that right now it can access like we're adding technology so access like we're adding technology so access like we're adding technology so we can do more beats in our music we can do more beats in our music we can do more beats in our music because oh yeah it's it sounds it sounds because oh yeah it's it sounds it sounds because oh yeah it's it sounds it sounds very it could be 2012 at our church of very it could be 2012 at our church of very it could be 2012 at our church of 2008 and you know so we're trying to get 2008 and you know so we're trying to get 2008 and you know so we're trying to get younger we're we're making changes all younger we're we're making changes all younger we're we're making changes all the time because what happens and you the time because what happens and you the time because what happens and you know I've talked about this before on my know I've talked about this before on my know I've talked about this before on my podcast you know you end up with a bunch

podcast you know you end up with a bunch podcast you know you end up with a bunch of 40 50 year old white guys making all of 40 50 year old white guys making all of 40 50 year old white guys making all the decisions and the church said it's the decisions and the church said it's the decisions and the church said it's like my 20 year old says none of my like my 20 year old says none of my like my 20 year old says none of my friends listened to Coldplay the only friends listened to Coldplay the only friends listened to Coldplay the only people who listened to Coldplay are people who listened to Coldplay are people who listened to Coldplay are people your age and you know everybody's people your age and you know everybody's people your age and you know everybody's dad listens to Coldplay but my friends dad listens to Coldplay but my friends dad listens to Coldplay but my friends listen to ya and you know I'm sitting listen to ya and you know I'm sitting listen to ya and you know I'm sitting there going now I'm incredibly relevant there going now I'm incredibly relevant there going now I'm incredibly relevant and he's like yeah no you're not yes and he's like yeah no you're not yes and he's like yeah no you're not yes it's so true no that's so true I think it's so true no that's so true I think it's so true no that's so true I think the music thing is a big part of the the music thing is a big part of the the music thing is a big part of the equation you know as I you know I've got equation you know as I you know I've got equation you know as I you know I've got teenagers which is a way to stay humble teenagers which is a way to stay humble teenagers which is a way to stay humble in life you know and actually come back in life you know and actually come back in life you know and actually come back with gratitude later well that's good with gratitude later well that's good with gratitude later well that's good I'm looking forward to this day know I'm looking forward to this day know I'm looking forward to this day know they you know I think there is a part of they you know I think there is a part of they you know I think there is a part of you know the music thing is is keeping you know the music thing is is keeping you know the music thing is is keeping ahead of the curve and you know I've ahead of the curve and you know I've ahead of the curve and you know I've been saying this and actually was saying been saying this and actually was saying been saying this and actually was saying this to a friend earlier just earlier this to a friend earlier just earlier this to a friend earlier just earlier today I said you know I I really do today I said you know I I really do today I said you know I I really do think that our musical expression where think that our musical expression where think that our musical expression where I think a lot of what we consider I think a lot of what we consider I think a lot of what we consider contemporary church is a bit stuck you contemporary church is a bit stuck you contemporary church is a bit stuck you know it continues to be in this how do know it continues to be in this how do know it continues to be in this how do how do we push to the future how do we how do we push to the future how do we how do we push to the future how do we it's not even in the future it's just it's not even in the future it's just it's not even in the future it's just where is it today where is it today where is it today you know I appreciate that what are some you know I appreciate that what are some you know I appreciate that what are some other when you think of you know there's other when you think of you know there's other when you think of you know there's kind of the Sunday programming piece you kind of the Sunday programming piece you kind of the Sunday programming piece you know trying to keep that relevant know trying to keep that relevant know trying to keep that relevant continuing to you know are there other continuing to you know are there other continuing to you know are there other kind of pieces of the equation that kind of pieces of the equation that kind of pieces of the equation that you've had to do to stay connected to you've had to do to stay connected to you've had to do to stay connected to you know post Christian culture you know post Christian culture you know post Christian culture yeah relationship I mean you know and yeah relationship I mean you know and yeah relationship I mean you know and and the way you approach people who and the way you approach people who and the way you approach people who don't go to church and don't share your don't go to church and don't share your don't go to church and don't share your values or your convictions values or your convictions values or your convictions Reggie joiner is a great friend and Reggie joiner is a great friend and Reggie joiner is a great friend and we've known each other for a while and we've known each other for a while and we've known each other for a while and he's one of the best at this that

he's one of the best at this that he's one of the best at this that frankly I've ever met in my life and he frankly I've ever met in my life and he frankly I've ever met in my life and he just said you know nobody will can be just said you know nobody will can be just said you know nobody will can be convinced that you love them if they convinced that you love them if they convinced that you love them if they sense that you don't like them and that sense that you don't like them and that sense that you don't like them and that that is just so yeah that's like okay that is just so yeah that's like okay that is just so yeah that's like okay could you be a little more ambiguous could you be a little more ambiguous could you be a little more ambiguous like just making that last Reggie but like just making that last Reggie but like just making that last Reggie but he's right and a lot of Christians you he's right and a lot of Christians you he's right and a lot of Christians you know what are we doing our Facebook what know what are we doing our Facebook what know what are we doing our Facebook what do we do in our social media tweets we do we do in our social media tweets we do we do in our social media tweets we rant against the world and then we can't rant against the world and then we can't rant against the world and then we can't understand why the world doesn't come understand why the world doesn't come understand why the world doesn't come running to us and so you know when I go running to us and so you know when I go running to us and so you know when I go I got a text before we did this I got a text before we did this I got a text before we did this interview from my neighbor hey you want interview from my neighbor hey you want interview from my neighbor hey you want to go for a bike ride today and I love to go for a bike ride today and I love to go for a bike ride today and I love my neighbor but you know what he doesn't my neighbor but you know what he doesn't my neighbor but you know what he doesn't sometimes let some f-bombs you know fly sometimes let some f-bombs you know fly sometimes let some f-bombs you know fly and he's never responded once to any and he's never responded once to any and he's never responded once to any invitations to church but you know the invitations to church but you know the invitations to church but you know the question is is he a project or is he a question is is he a project or is he a question is is he a project or is he a person is he somebody I'm gonna you know person is he somebody I'm gonna you know person is he somebody I'm gonna you know and when you're dealing with unchurched and when you're dealing with unchurched and when you're dealing with unchurched people you're not gonna agree with their people you're not gonna agree with their people you're not gonna agree with their lifestyle some of them are gonna smoke lifestyle some of them are gonna smoke lifestyle some of them are gonna smoke weed some of them are gonna have sex weed some of them are gonna have sex weed some of them are gonna have sex outside of marriage some of them are outside of marriage some of them are outside of marriage some of them are gonna you know they're gonna they and gonna you know they're gonna they and gonna you know they're gonna they and and some of them by contrast are gonna and some of them by contrast are gonna and some of them by contrast are gonna be fantastic you know wonderful people be fantastic you know wonderful people be fantastic you know wonderful people morally and otherwise morally and otherwise morally and otherwise and and and then they're like well I and and and then they're like well I and and and then they're like well I thought I had to be a Christian to be a thought I had to be a Christian to be a thought I had to be a Christian to be a good person but I'm already a good good person but I'm already a good good person but I'm already a good person you're like you know what you are person you're like you know what you are person you're like you know what you are a good person let's just be honest you a good person let's just be honest you a good person let's just be honest you know so I think a lot of christians we know so I think a lot of christians we know so I think a lot of christians we live in this stereotypical bubble where live in this stereotypical bubble where live in this stereotypical bubble where we don't actually like on church people we don't actually like on church people we don't actually like on church people and we have reasons we you know rich and we have reasons we you know rich and we have reasons we you know rich what I think we've done in the what I think we've done in the what I think we've done in the evangelical church is we you know will evangelical church is we you know will evangelical church is we you know will and I'm not criticizing room and and I'm not criticizing room and and I'm not criticizing room and Catholicism at all here but you know

Catholicism at all here but you know Catholicism at all here but you know Protestants criticize Catholics for Protestants criticize Catholics for Protestants criticize Catholics for saying you're all about works you're all saying you're all about works you're all saying you're all about works you're all about work salvation I think what we've about work salvation I think what we've about work salvation I think what we've done in the Protestant evangelical done in the Protestant evangelical done in the Protestant evangelical church particularly the conservative church particularly the conservative church particularly the conservative Church so we have taken works and we Church so we have taken works and we Church so we have taken works and we won't let them in the front door but we won't let them in the front door but we won't let them in the front door but we bring them in the back door and we're bring them in the back door and we're bring them in the back door and we're like we are better than you God loves us like we are better than you God loves us like we are better than you God loves us because we're righteous and you're not because we're righteous and you're not because we're righteous and you're not very righteous so you know you know you very righteous so you know you know you very righteous so you know you know you don't really belong in our club and we don't really belong in our club and we don't really belong in our club and we have tried to smash I've tried to smash have tried to smash I've tried to smash have tried to smash I've tried to smash that attitude in my heart because it's that attitude in my heart because it's that attitude in my heart because it's there you know idols they keep building there you know idols they keep building there you know idols they keep building themselves so I'm trying to kill that in themselves so I'm trying to kill that in themselves so I'm trying to kill that in my heart we're trying to kill that in my heart we're trying to kill that in my heart we're trying to kill that in our church and we're trying to be our church and we're trying to be our church and we're trying to be gracious and compassionate and gracious and compassionate and gracious and compassionate and empathetic you know the way Reggie or empathetic you know the way Reggie or empathetic you know the way Reggie or Andy Stanley would say man if I were you Andy Stanley would say man if I were you Andy Stanley would say man if I were you and I believed what you believed I would and I believed what you believed I would and I believed what you believed I would live the way you live like it makes live the way you live like it makes live the way you live like it makes perfect sense and when you have that perfect sense and when you have that perfect sense and when you have that kind of empathy when you show that kind kind of empathy when you show that kind kind of empathy when you show that kind of grace when you're when you're in of grace when you're when you're in of grace when you're when you're in relationships like that with people with relationships like that with people with relationships like that with people with whom perhaps you do profoundly disagree whom perhaps you do profoundly disagree whom perhaps you do profoundly disagree at a truth level or maybe even disagree at a truth level or maybe even disagree at a truth level or maybe even disagree in a lifestyle level but you don't judge in a lifestyle level but you don't judge in a lifestyle level but you don't judge them man it's amazing you just build them man it's amazing you just build them man it's amazing you just build friendships and the reality about human friendships and the reality about human friendships and the reality about human existence is simply this we listen most existence is simply this we listen most existence is simply this we listen most to the people that we love the most and to the people that we love the most and to the people that we love the most and if they don't love you they're not gonna if they don't love you they're not gonna if they don't love you they're not gonna listen to you but if you build a listen to you but if you build a listen to you but if you build a relationship and and you actually just relationship and and you actually just relationship and and you actually just genuinely like them like I think that's genuinely like them like I think that's genuinely like them like I think that's what attracted people who are maybe not what attracted people who are maybe not what attracted people who are maybe not observant Jews people who were Gentiles observant Jews people who were Gentiles observant Jews people who were Gentiles in Jesus day it's like this guy actually in Jesus day it's like this guy actually in Jesus day it's like this guy actually loves me like this guy actually likes me

loves me like this guy actually likes me loves me like this guy actually likes me and what somebody actually likes you and what somebody actually likes you and what somebody actually likes you you're you're open to them and you're you're you're open to them and you're you're you're open to them and you're okay tell me we're it to you you're okay tell me we're it to you you're okay tell me we're it to you you're weird but you go to church right right weird but you go to church right right weird but you go to church right right but if you're rich the neighbor who's but if you're rich the neighbor who's but if you're rich the neighbor who's always calling the township because the always calling the township because the always calling the township because the guy hasn't mowed guy hasn't mowed guy hasn't mowed lawn or you know calling the city lawn or you know calling the city lawn or you know calling the city because if you're rich the angry because if you're rich the angry because if you're rich the angry Christian I'm not gonna listen to you in Christian I'm not gonna listen to you in Christian I'm not gonna listen to you in fact I'm gonna do the opposite so what fact I'm gonna do the opposite so what fact I'm gonna do the opposite so what we've learned is that in building we've learned is that in building we've learned is that in building relationships you need to have a lot of relationships you need to have a lot of relationships you need to have a lot of empathy and empathy doesn't mean empathy and empathy doesn't mean empathy and empathy doesn't mean agreement and you need to keep the agreement and you need to keep the agreement and you need to keep the relationship because if you don't have a relationship because if you don't have a relationship because if you don't have a relationship there is no possible way relationship there is no possible way relationship there is no possible way that you can ever have influence in in that you can ever have influence in in that you can ever have influence in in somebody's life well that's good somebody's life well that's good somebody's life well that's good practical on that issue because I think practical on that issue because I think practical on that issue because I think you know you speak to a lot of church you know you speak to a lot of church you know you speak to a lot of church leaders you know your a lot of people leaders you know your a lot of people leaders you know your a lot of people follow you and you know I think it can follow you and you know I think it can follow you and you know I think it can be hard for church leaders to have be hard for church leaders to have be hard for church leaders to have relationships with people outside the relationships with people outside the relationships with people outside the church that that can just our our lives church that that can just our our lives church that that can just our our lives can become swallowed up with you know can become swallowed up with you know can become swallowed up with you know we're constantly meeting with donors we're constantly meeting with donors we're constantly meeting with donors with leaders with you know we're trying with leaders with you know we're trying with leaders with you know we're trying to recruit people or we're trying to you to recruit people or we're trying to you to recruit people or we're trying to you know meet with some young people in the know meet with some young people in the know meet with some young people in the church and so before you know it it's I church and so before you know it it's I church and so before you know it it's I think there are those extreme examples think there are those extreme examples think there are those extreme examples of you know the guy who's an idiot of you know the guy who's an idiot of you know the guy who's an idiot frankly but I think mortgage leaders are frankly but I think mortgage leaders are frankly but I think mortgage leaders are probably impacted by the I just I'm not probably impacted by the I just I'm not probably impacted by the I just I'm not making space in my life for folks making space in my life for folks making space in my life for folks outside the church how do you how have outside the church how do you how have outside the church how do you how have you done that and how would you coach you done that and how would you coach you done that and how would you coach some leaders who may be listening in some leaders who may be listening in some leaders who may be listening in today to make relationship space for today to make relationship space for today to make relationship space for folks in their lives yeah you know as as folks in their lives yeah you know as as folks in their lives yeah you know as as clinical as this sounds it doesn't clinical as this sounds it doesn't clinical as this sounds it doesn't happen unless you schedule it so I have

happen unless you schedule it so I have happen unless you schedule it so I have a couple of breakfast slots that are a couple of breakfast slots that are a couple of breakfast slots that are open most weeks on Tuesday and Thursday open most weeks on Tuesday and Thursday open most weeks on Tuesday and Thursday morning and I will often meet with morning and I will often meet with morning and I will often meet with somebody who's just going through a hard somebody who's just going through a hard somebody who's just going through a hard time or an unchurched person I'm time or an unchurched person I'm time or an unchurched person I'm building into I always try to have one building into I always try to have one building into I always try to have one or two personal relationships not like or two personal relationships not like or two personal relationships not like somebody I talked to for five minutes somebody I talked to for five minutes somebody I talked to for five minutes after sermon one day but like people I'm after sermon one day but like people I'm after sermon one day but like people I'm building into and I'm doing life with building into and I'm doing life with building into and I'm doing life with it's Andy Stanley's due for one what you it's Andy Stanley's due for one what you it's Andy Stanley's due for one what you wish you could do for everyone so and I wish you could do for everyone so and I wish you could do for everyone so and I think getting involved in the community think getting involved in the community think getting involved in the community outside of your church so you know I outside of your church so you know I outside of your church so you know I have I cycle I tend to cycle alone have I cycle I tend to cycle alone have I cycle I tend to cycle alone unless I'm with an unchurched friend and unless I'm with an unchurched friend and unless I'm with an unchurched friend and then I'll cycle together in a group with then I'll cycle together in a group with then I'll cycle together in a group with that person but it's just building that person but it's just building that person but it's just building relationships it's praying for them and relationships it's praying for them and relationships it's praying for them and you know you you you reach one or two you know you you you reach one or two you know you you you reach one or two people a year and it can make a really people a year and it can make a really people a year and it can make a really big difference I went for a woman and big difference I went for a woman and big difference I went for a woman and don't give up you know I went for a walk don't give up you know I went for a walk don't give up you know I went for a walk this week with a guy that I met a decade this week with a guy that I met a decade this week with a guy that I met a decade ago ago ago he had was kind of unchurched started he had was kind of unchurched started he had was kind of unchurched started coming to our church and then literally coming to our church and then literally coming to our church and then literally walked out the door and we didn't see walked out the door and we didn't see walked out the door and we didn't see him for five years man you know he just him for five years man you know he just him for five years man you know he just wasn't very open and then his life took wasn't very open and then his life took wasn't very open and then his life took a turn last fall he started texting me a turn last fall he started texting me a turn last fall he started texting me again he still had my cell phone to eat again he still had my cell phone to eat again he still had my cell phone to eat we had him over for dinner built a we had him over for dinner built a we had him over for dinner built a relationship he gave his life to Christ relationship he gave his life to Christ relationship he gave his life to Christ a few months ago and you know we just we a few months ago and you know we just we a few months ago and you know we just we just hang out and we're just talking but just hang out and we're just talking but just hang out and we're just talking but you know you need you need to have and you know you need you need to have and you know you need you need to have and you need to have that and you need to you need to have that and you need to you need to have that and you need to take the initiative as a leader because take the initiative as a leader because take the initiative as a leader because unchurched people are never gonna email unchurched people are never gonna email unchurched people are never gonna email you leaders will email you donors will

you leaders will email you donors will you leaders will email you donors will email you you know people with marriage email you you know people with marriage email you you know people with marriage breakdown pastoral problems emergencies breakdown pastoral problems emergencies breakdown pastoral problems emergencies they'll email you they'll take us to you they'll email you they'll take us to you they'll email you they'll take us to you they'll Facebook you all day long they'll Facebook you all day long they'll Facebook you all day long unchurched people never will so you just unchurched people never will so you just unchurched people never will so you just have to make the time for them and if I have to make the time for them and if I have to make the time for them and if I don't put it my calendar it doesn't don't put it my calendar it doesn't don't put it my calendar it doesn't happen right that's very that's a good happen right that's very that's a good happen right that's very that's a good word I said that that a principle of word I said that that a principle of word I said that that a principle of applying you know in your own personal applying you know in your own personal applying you know in your own personal life of making room in your life for life of making room in your life for life of making room in your life for unchurched people how are you expecting unchurched people how are you expecting unchurched people how are you expecting to do that as a church unless you are to do that as a church unless you are to do that as a church unless you are doing that in your own personal life doing that in your own personal life doing that in your own personal life right like in the city the principle is right like in the city the principle is right like in the city the principle is the same the same the same you know how we want to have the voice you know how we want to have the voice you know how we want to have the voice of you know unchurched folks in our of you know unchurched folks in our of you know unchurched folks in our churches as we're planning as we're churches as we're planning as we're churches as we're planning as we're thinking it through what how does our thinking it through what how does our thinking it through what how does our kids ministry connect with people who kids ministry connect with people who kids ministry connect with people who aren't in church and how does our you aren't in church and how does our you aren't in church and how does our you know why are we what are we speaking know why are we what are we speaking know why are we what are we speaking about on Sundays that would connect with about on Sundays that would connect with about on Sundays that would connect with people who are uncharged if we're not people who are uncharged if we're not people who are uncharged if we're not making that space in our own lives making that space in our own lives making that space in our own lives that's very hard to do that in the life that's very hard to do that in the life that's very hard to do that in the life of our church for sure and I think rich of our church for sure and I think rich of our church for sure and I think rich you're so right like there's a certain you're so right like there's a certain you're so right like there's a certain point at which you have to start saying point at which you have to start saying point at which you have to start saying no to Christians if you want to build a no to Christians if you want to build a no to Christians if you want to build a relationship with non-christians yes relationship with non-christians yes relationship with non-christians yes because I could fill every waking second because I could fill every waking second because I could fill every waking second of my life with Christians who want to of my life with Christians who want to of my life with Christians who want to meet with me yeah I just won't do it meet with me yeah I just won't do it meet with me yeah I just won't do it III can't do it you have to say no to III can't do it you have to say no to III can't do it you have to say no to Christians for the sake of the Lost it's Christians for the sake of the Lost it's Christians for the sake of the Lost it's kind of that parable Jesus told right kind of that parable Jesus told right kind of that parable Jesus told right where you'll leave the ninety-nine and where you'll leave the ninety-nine and where you'll leave the ninety-nine and you go and find one we just live in a you go and find one we just live in a you go and find one we just live in a country where it's like well we found country where it's like well we found country where it's like well we found one we just lost ninety-nine so hey you one we just lost ninety-nine so hey you one we just lost ninety-nine so hey you over there sit over there yes we're over there sit over there yes we're over there sit over there yes we're gonna try to find those 99 yeah gonna try to find those 99 yeah gonna try to find those 99 yeah definitely all right well you you know definitely all right well you you know definitely all right well you you know interact with you know leaders in in the interact with you know leaders in in the interact with you know leaders in in the u.s. quite a bit and part of what we're

u.s. quite a bit and part of what we're u.s. quite a bit and part of what we're doing this month if you've been doing this month if you've been doing this month if you've been listening along is actually asking listening along is actually asking listening along is actually asking leaders from around the world to kind of leaders from around the world to kind of leaders from around the world to kind of give some advice some brother give some advice some brother give some advice some brother advice to leaders in the States about advice to leaders in the States about advice to leaders in the States about saying hey this is kind of from my saying hey this is kind of from my saying hey this is kind of from my perspective what you know if I was perspective what you know if I was perspective what you know if I was leading in your culture what I've leading in your culture what I've leading in your culture what I've learned from my perspective might help learned from my perspective might help learned from my perspective might help you as you're leading you know in an you as you're leading you know in an you as you're leading you know in an increasingly post-christian postmodern increasingly post-christian postmodern increasingly post-christian postmodern world what would you say to get carried world what would you say to get carried world what would you say to get carried to church leaders you know in the States to church leaders you know in the States to church leaders you know in the States as they're thinking about that issue as they're thinking about that issue as they're thinking about that issue well this is a little political and I well this is a little political and I well this is a little political and I don't want people to hear this in a don't want people to hear this in a don't want people to hear this in a partisan way but I would just say stop partisan way but I would just say stop partisan way but I would just say stop asking the government or expecting the asking the government or expecting the asking the government or expecting the government to do the work of the church government to do the work of the church government to do the work of the church plain and simple plain and simple plain and simple when I when I see Americans comment on when I when I see Americans comment on when I when I see Americans comment on the nation there's this you know they the nation there's this you know they the nation there's this you know they see the Christian foundations of America see the Christian foundations of America see the Christian foundations of America slipping away and I don't think a slipping away and I don't think a slipping away and I don't think a political party is gonna bring that back political party is gonna bring that back political party is gonna bring that back I think a revitalized church if you look I think a revitalized church if you look I think a revitalized church if you look at it eventually a government becomes a at it eventually a government becomes a at it eventually a government becomes a reflection of a people and if the people reflection of a people and if the people reflection of a people and if the people are increasingly unchristian the are increasingly unchristian the are increasingly unchristian the government is going to be increasingly government is going to be increasingly government is going to be increasingly Christian so the way to do that I mean Christian so the way to do that I mean Christian so the way to do that I mean you end up in two theocracies or you end up in two theocracies or you end up in two theocracies or totalitarian states where they start to totalitarian states where they start to totalitarian states where they start to impose you know religious views on impose you know religious views on impose you know religious views on people no let it bubble up like go reach people no let it bubble up like go reach people no let it bubble up like go reach your city goal of your city goal of your your city goal of your city goal of your your city goal of your city goal of your community make a difference in your community make a difference in your community make a difference in your state make a difference you know in your state make a difference you know in your state make a difference you know in your region and as you went over heart after region and as you went over heart after region and as you went over heart after heart after heart person after person heart after heart person after person heart after heart person after person life after life some of those people

life after life some of those people life after life some of those people will end up being you know senators some will end up being you know senators some will end up being you know senators some of them will end up being Congress of them will end up being Congress of them will end up being Congress people some of them will end up being people some of them will end up being people some of them will end up being you know running for mayor and as those you know running for mayor and as those you know running for mayor and as those things change from the bottom up you things change from the bottom up you things change from the bottom up you will see a nation transform but looking will see a nation transform but looking will see a nation transform but looking at the government being angry at the government being angry at the government being angry complaining about things doesn't solve complaining about things doesn't solve complaining about things doesn't solve anything you got to roll up your sleeves anything you got to roll up your sleeves anything you got to roll up your sleeves go meet some people and with that you go meet some people and with that you go meet some people and with that you can change the world okay I really can change the world okay I really can change the world okay I really appreciate you being on the show today appreciate you being on the show today appreciate you being on the show today if people want to get in touch with you if people want to get in touch with you if people want to get in touch with you or with the church that you lead how or with the church that you lead how or with the church that you lead how could they do that could they do that could they do that yeah sure our church is just Connexus yeah sure our church is just Connexus yeah sure our church is just Connexus Church that co NN e ex-us Church calm Church that co NN e ex-us Church calm Church that co NN e ex-us Church calm and you can find it and then my blog and and you can find it and then my blog and and you can find it and then my blog and leadership podcast at all sort of can be leadership podcast at all sort of can be leadership podcast at all sort of can be found at Carey newhoff calm and caru I found at Carey newhoff calm and caru I found at Carey newhoff calm and caru I knew half of you come even close knew half of you come even close knew half of you come even close will direct you there a nice carry I will direct you there a nice carry I will direct you there a nice carry I appreciate me on the show today thank appreciate me on the show today thank appreciate me on the show today thank you so much thank islanding I appreciate you so much thank islanding I appreciate you so much thank islanding I appreciate that that that appreciate you Ruth thank you for tuning appreciate you Ruth thank you for tuning appreciate you Ruth thank you for tuning in to this week's unsung re podcast in to this week's unsung re podcast in to this week's unsung re podcast don't be shy we'd love to connect check don't be shy we'd love to connect check don't be shy we'd love to connect check out uncie Maneri inbox you can sign up out uncie Maneri inbox you can sign up out uncie Maneri inbox you can sign up at unsummon airy calm and we'll send you at unsummon airy calm and we'll send you at unsummon airy calm and we'll send you helpful training resources every week helpful training resources every week helpful training resources every week plus you'll gain immediate access to our plus you'll gain immediate access to our plus you'll gain immediate access to our exclusive members area with tons of exclusive members area with tons of exclusive members area with tons of resources you can use connect with rich resources you can use connect with rich resources you can use connect with rich on twitter at rich birch or through on twitter at rich birch or through on twitter at rich birch or through email rich at unsummon Ericom don't email rich at unsummon Ericom don't email rich at unsummon Ericom don't forget to check out the show notes for forget to check out the show notes for forget to check out the show notes for this episode at unsummon airy calm it this episode at unsummon airy calm it this episode at unsummon airy calm it includes links to what we talked about includes links to what we talked about includes links to what we talked about today and more leave a comment we'd love today and more leave a comment we'd love today and more leave a comment we'd love to hear from you did you enjoy today's to hear from you did you enjoy today's to hear from you did you enjoy today's episode drop by iTunes and leave a

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