Ross Lester on Racial Integration & Birthing Gospel-Centered Multi-Cultural Churches

today's on seminary podcast episode is today's on seminary podcast episode is brought to you by regal theater Church brought to you by regal theater Church brought to you by regal theater Church the only theater company providing full the only theater company providing full the only theater company providing full service consultation for churches service consultation for churches service consultation for churches wanting to create dynamic worship wanting to create dynamic worship wanting to create dynamic worship services in familiar culturally relevant services in familiar culturally relevant services in familiar culturally relevant venues the local movie theater with lots venues the local movie theater with lots venues the local movie theater with lots of parking spacious lobbies plenty of of parking spacious lobbies plenty of of parking spacious lobbies plenty of bathrooms and a perfect view of the bathrooms and a perfect view of the bathrooms and a perfect view of the screen from a comfortable seat regal screen from a comfortable seat regal screen from a comfortable seat regal theaters are ideal for church plants and theaters are ideal for church plants and theaters are ideal for church plants and multi sites learn more at regal theater multi sites learn more at regal theater multi sites learn more at regal theater church com or call their incredible team church com or call their incredible team church com or call their incredible team at one eight hundred 79 to 82 for four at one eight hundred 79 to 82 for four at one eight hundred 79 to 82 for four today welcome to the unseen airy podcast today welcome to the unseen airy podcast today welcome to the unseen airy podcast are you looking for practical ministry are you looking for practical ministry are you looking for practical ministry help to drive your ministry further help to drive your ministry further help to drive your ministry further faster have a sinking feeling that your faster have a sinking feeling that your faster have a sinking feeling that your ministry training didn't prepare you for ministry training didn't prepare you for ministry training didn't prepare you for the real world hey you're not alone join the real world hey you're not alone join the real world hey you're not alone join thousands of others and pursuit of stuff thousands of others and pursuit of stuff thousands of others and pursuit of stuff that we wish they had taught in seminary that we wish they had taught in seminary that we wish they had taught in seminary buckle up and let's get started with buckle up and let's get started with buckle up and let's get started with this week's on seminary podcast happy this week's on seminary podcast happy this week's on seminary podcast happy Thursday everybody its rich birch from Thursday everybody its rich birch from Thursday everybody its rich birch from the unsub inary podcast I hope you have the unsub inary podcast I hope you have the unsub inary podcast I hope you have had a great week this month we are had a great week this month we are had a great week this month we are celebrating over three years and 180 celebrating over three years and 180 celebrating over three years and 180 plus episodes of the unset Maneri plus episodes of the unset Maneri plus episodes of the unset Maneri podcast by going global by looking at podcast by going global by looking at podcast by going global by looking at church leaders from around the world church leaders from around the world church leaders from around the world today we are going all the way to South today we are going all the way to South today we are going all the way to South Africa to visit with a leader by the Africa to visit with a leader by the Africa to visit with a leader by the name of Ross Lester and Ross is pretty name of Ross Lester and Ross is pretty name of Ross Lester and Ross is pretty amazing leader he is leading a amazing leader he is leading a amazing leader he is leading a multi-ethnic multi-cultural church in a multi-ethnic multi-cultural church in a multi-ethnic multi-cultural church in a part of the world where race really has part of the world where race really has part of the world where race really has mattered in a pretty significant manner mattered in a pretty significant manner mattered in a pretty significant manner and I think you're going to be I think and I think you're going to be I think and I think you're going to be I think you'll love this interview you're going you'll love this interview you're going you'll love this interview you're going to love to hear more about it I also to love to hear more about it I also to love to hear more about it I also just want to remind you that on November

just want to remind you that on November just want to remind you that on November first we're launching my very first book first we're launching my very first book first we're launching my very first book it's called unreasonable churches and it's called unreasonable churches and it's called unreasonable churches and you can find out more about that at you can find out more about that at you can find out more about that at unreasonable churches com where you can unreasonable churches com where you can unreasonable churches com where you can get a sample chapter and actually get to get a sample chapter and actually get to get a sample chapter and actually get to the front of the line to learn more the front of the line to learn more the front of the line to learn more about the book as we roll out here at about the book as we roll out here at about the book as we roll out here at the end of the month I would love for the end of the month I would love for the end of the month I would love for you to pick up a copy or three for your you to pick up a copy or three for your you to pick up a copy or three for your friends and ministry maybe that makes a friends and ministry maybe that makes a friends and ministry maybe that makes a great Christmas gift I know that seems a great Christmas gift I know that seems a great Christmas gift I know that seems a little early but that time is coming little early but that time is coming little early but that time is coming this year well let's jump in with Ross this year well let's jump in with Ross this year well let's jump in with Ross Lester I think you're going to love this Lester I think you're going to love this Lester I think you're going to love this interview gonna love hearing more about interview gonna love hearing more about interview gonna love hearing more about how God is using his church this is the how God is using his church this is the how God is using his church this is the uncen ery podcast stuff you wish they uncen ery podcast stuff you wish they uncen ery podcast stuff you wish they taught at seven taught at seven taught at seven we've got Ross Lester with us all the we've got Ross Lester with us all the we've got Ross Lester with us all the way from Johannesburg South Africa he is way from Johannesburg South Africa he is way from Johannesburg South Africa he is the pastor at bryanston Bible Church a the pastor at bryanston Bible Church a the pastor at bryanston Bible Church a great church and I'm really looking great church and I'm really looking great church and I'm really looking forward to learning from you today Ross forward to learning from you today Ross forward to learning from you today Ross welcome to the show hey thanks rich welcome to the show hey thanks rich welcome to the show hey thanks rich thanks for having me I'm so glad that thanks for having me I'm so glad that thanks for having me I'm so glad that you've taken some time out with this I'd you've taken some time out with this I'd you've taken some time out with this I'd love to hear more about South Africa love to hear more about South Africa love to hear more about South Africa give us a sense of kind of the spiritual give us a sense of kind of the spiritual give us a sense of kind of the spiritual climate you know how has the you know climate you know how has the you know climate you know how has the you know the history of your country impacting the history of your country impacting the history of your country impacting you know the gospel give us a sense of you know the gospel give us a sense of you know the gospel give us a sense of the South that of South Africa all right the South that of South Africa all right the South that of South Africa all right I think I think South Africa is a land I think I think South Africa is a land I think I think South Africa is a land of tremendous opportunity and a land of of tremendous opportunity and a land of of tremendous opportunity and a land of tremendous obstacles at the same time in tremendous obstacles at the same time in tremendous obstacles at the same time in terms a church work and the gospel it terms a church work and the gospel it terms a church work and the gospel it was kind of the darling of the world 20 was kind of the darling of the world 20 was kind of the darling of the world 20 years ago with the end of apartheid and years ago with the end of apartheid and years ago with the end of apartheid and Nelson Mandela and Desmond Tutu's vision Nelson Mandela and Desmond Tutu's vision Nelson Mandela and Desmond Tutu's vision of a rainbow nation and I think what of a rainbow nation and I think what of a rainbow nation and I think what we're seeing now is just how naive some we're seeing now is just how naive some we're seeing now is just how naive some of that vision was in terms of

of that vision was in terms of of that vision was in terms of implementation and so the realities of a implementation and so the realities of a implementation and so the realities of a post-colonial and still very racially post-colonial and still very racially post-colonial and still very racially divided society are really coming home divided society are really coming home divided society are really coming home to roost and so there's major obstacles to roost and so there's major obstacles to roost and so there's major obstacles there's there's some rampant poverty there's there's some rampant poverty there's there's some rampant poverty highest HIV infection rates in the world highest HIV infection rates in the world highest HIV infection rates in the world in South Africa alone this there's over in South Africa alone this there's over in South Africa alone this there's over 5 million orphan of honorable children 5 million orphan of honorable children 5 million orphan of honorable children and so massive gap between rich and poor and so massive gap between rich and poor and so massive gap between rich and poor so major major obstacles major racial so major major obstacles major racial so major major obstacles major racial gaps and and inequalities there as well gaps and and inequalities there as well gaps and and inequalities there as well but major opportunities because God's but major opportunities because God's but major opportunities because God's doing something in sub-saharan Africa doing something in sub-saharan Africa doing something in sub-saharan Africa and in South Africa and so sub-saharan and in South Africa and so sub-saharan and in South Africa and so sub-saharan Africa is where Christianity is growing Africa is where Christianity is growing Africa is where Christianity is growing fastest anywhere in the world so it's fastest anywhere in the world so it's fastest anywhere in the world so it's reckon in 10 years from now Africa would reckon in 10 years from now Africa would reckon in 10 years from now Africa would have the most Christians of any have the most Christians of any have the most Christians of any continent in the world and the median continent in the world and the median continent in the world and the median age of a Christian in sub-saharan Africa age of a Christian in sub-saharan Africa age of a Christian in sub-saharan Africa is 19 so there's massive opportunity for is 19 so there's massive opportunity for is 19 so there's massive opportunity for the gospel if you can get this gospel the gospel if you can get this gospel the gospel if you can get this gospel narrative ruling into the hearts of narrative ruling into the hearts of narrative ruling into the hearts of people in what looks like a place full people in what looks like a place full people in what looks like a place full of obstacles you can also create a great of obstacles you can also create a great of obstacles you can also create a great deal of opportunity for the next deal of opportunity for the next deal of opportunity for the next generation of Christians in this part of generation of Christians in this part of generation of Christians in this part of the world and I'm believes in this part the world and I'm believes in this part the world and I'm believes in this part of the world to experience the hope of of the world to experience the hope of of the world to experience the hope of the gospel so it's an exciting place to the gospel so it's an exciting place to the gospel so it's an exciting place to be exciting place to Minister no be exciting place to Minister no be exciting place to Minister no shortage of difficulties but plenty shortage of difficulties but plenty shortage of difficulties but plenty opportunity now did you grow up in opportunity now did you grow up in opportunity now did you grow up in johannesburg in you know in the specific johannesburg in you know in the specific johannesburg in you know in the specific the kind of part of the country that the kind of part of the country that the kind of part of the country that you're you're you're coming in today yeah did born and raised coming in today yeah did born and raised coming in today yeah did born and raised kind of 4th generation South African and kind of 4th generation South African and kind of 4th generation South African and so grew up right right through the fall so grew up right right through the fall so grew up right right through the fall of apartheid and spend some time in the of apartheid and spend some time in the of apartheid and spend some time in the u.s. living there but most of my time

u.s. living there but most of my time u.s. living there but most of my time has been in Jana's burg amazing well why has been in Jana's burg amazing well why has been in Jana's burg amazing well why does she give us a sense of kind of you does she give us a sense of kind of you does she give us a sense of kind of you know your church your community you know know your church your community you know know your church your community you know how is what you're leading you know how is what you're leading you know how is what you're leading you know impacting your community with the gospel impacting your community with the gospel impacting your community with the gospel it's incredible to hear you know the it's incredible to hear you know the it's incredible to hear you know the growth of the kingdom and how many growth of the kingdom and how many growth of the kingdom and how many people are you know becoming Christ's people are you know becoming Christ's people are you know becoming Christ's followers in South Africa and followers in South Africa and followers in South Africa and sub-saharan Africa but tell us about sub-saharan Africa but tell us about sub-saharan Africa but tell us about what's going on your church um so yeah what's going on your church um so yeah what's going on your church um so yeah I'm at a church called BBC branch the I'm at a church called BBC branch the I'm at a church called BBC branch the Bible Church it's about 45 years old and Bible Church it's about 45 years old and Bible Church it's about 45 years old and so was part of a quite a conservative so was part of a quite a conservative so was part of a quite a conservative denomination on is the Christian denomination on is the Christian denomination on is the Christian brethren and then moved away from that brethren and then moved away from that brethren and then moved away from that about 20 years ago and it's kind of been about 20 years ago and it's kind of been about 20 years ago and it's kind of been trying to discover its own identity and trying to discover its own identity and trying to discover its own identity and its own place in the world it's in its own place in the world it's in its own place in the world it's in probably the most affluent neighborhood probably the most affluent neighborhood probably the most affluent neighborhood on the continent which again has its on the continent which again has its on the continent which again has its challenges because you've got the challenges because you've got the challenges because you've got the poorest of the poor living a couple of poorest of the poor living a couple of poorest of the poor living a couple of miles away and then really affluent miles away and then really affluent miles away and then really affluent people living beyond massive walls people living beyond massive walls people living beyond massive walls trying to not let that tension just trying to not let that tension just trying to not let that tension just overwhelm there was something overwhelm there was something overwhelm there was something interesting yeah so we're a couple of interesting yeah so we're a couple of interesting yeah so we're a couple of thousand people now just trying to thousand people now just trying to thousand people now just trying to figure it out lots of kids lots of young figure it out lots of kids lots of young figure it out lots of kids lots of young families try and growing towards families try and growing towards families try and growing towards multiculturalism growing towards racial multiculturalism growing towards racial multiculturalism growing towards racial integration if you don't see much of integration if you don't see much of integration if you don't see much of that in churches in South Africa well that in churches in South Africa well that in churches in South Africa well and trying to be a faithful Church that and trying to be a faithful Church that and trying to be a faithful Church that plants other churches and maybe puts a plants other churches and maybe puts a plants other churches and maybe puts a movement of gospel centered movement of gospel centered movement of gospel centered multicultural churches in South Africa multicultural churches in South Africa multicultural churches in South Africa why there's a lot to unpack there i'd why there's a lot to unpack there i'd why there's a lot to unpack there i'd love to if if I'm not stepping on toes love to if if I'm not stepping on toes love to if if I'm not stepping on toes I'd love to hear more about kind of I'd love to hear more about kind of I'd love to hear more about kind of multiracial thing and how you're making

multiracial thing and how you're making multiracial thing and how you're making steps in that direction obviously you steps in that direction obviously you steps in that direction obviously you know I think a lot of our listeners you know I think a lot of our listeners you know I think a lot of our listeners you know from the states can identify with know from the states can identify with know from the states can identify with the segregation that just naturally the segregation that just naturally the segregation that just naturally happens but obviously that takes on even happens but obviously that takes on even happens but obviously that takes on even you know a different complexion in your you know a different complexion in your you know a different complexion in your community how are you making steps community how are you making steps community how are you making steps towards that in a true church yeah it is towards that in a true church yeah it is towards that in a true church yeah it is different here because the oppressor was different here because the oppressor was different here because the oppressor was the minority and so that's got us on the minority and so that's got us on the minority and so that's got us on complexities and so so so we're a complexities and so so so we're a complexities and so so so we're a majority white church but I'm access a majority white church but I'm access a majority white church but I'm access a majority minority church majority minority church majority minority church in the rest of the world is you know in the rest of the world is you know in the rest of the world is you know like I don't know seen as more like I don't know seen as more like I don't know seen as more acceptable but here it's as really not acceptable but here it's as really not acceptable but here it's as really not so so there's interesting dynamics at so so there's interesting dynamics at so so there's interesting dynamics at play there so what we've tried to do is play there so what we've tried to do is play there so what we've tried to do is just say okay apartheid put us white just say okay apartheid put us white just say okay apartheid put us white South Africans in a position of South Africans in a position of South Africans in a position of privilege there's there's no denying privilege there's there's no denying privilege there's there's no denying that we benefited off of an illegitimate that we benefited off of an illegitimate that we benefited off of an illegitimate system how do we own that repent of that system how do we own that repent of that system how do we own that repent of that and then pay it back how do we pay back and then pay it back how do we pay back and then pay it back how do we pay back from how do we take the the position from how do we take the the position from how do we take the the position that we're and the education that we've that we're and the education that we've that we're and the education that we've receives the wealth that we have receives the wealth that we have receives the wealth that we have available to us because of the available to us because of the available to us because of the wickedness of that system and how do we wickedness of that system and how do we wickedness of that system and how do we pay that back and the best way we can pay that back and the best way we can pay that back and the best way we can see is paying that back is through see is paying that back is through see is paying that back is through raising black African leaders who will raising black African leaders who will raising black African leaders who will replace us sewing the riches of the replace us sewing the riches of the replace us sewing the riches of the resources that were sign in to us sowing resources that were sign in to us sowing resources that were sign in to us sowing into young black African leaders so that into young black African leaders so that into young black African leaders so that they can really take the charge into the they can really take the charge into the they can really take the charge into the next generation and so we we haven't next generation and so we we haven't next generation and so we we haven't really tried to put band-aids on a really tried to put band-aids on a really tried to put band-aids on a cancer by just window dressing in terms

cancer by just window dressing in terms cancer by just window dressing in terms of music styles that kind of stuff that of music styles that kind of stuff that of music styles that kind of stuff that will come our heart has really been to will come our heart has really been to will come our heart has really been to change the demographic of the church change the demographic of the church change the demographic of the church from the leadership down hmm and so from the leadership down hmm and so from the leadership down hmm and so really been trying to sew into young really been trying to sew into young really been trying to sew into young black efrain's raising them up to black efrain's raising them up to black efrain's raising them up to maturity appointing them as elders when maturity appointing them as elders when maturity appointing them as elders when they're ready sending them out of church they're ready sending them out of church they're ready sending them out of church planners because then leadership is is planners because then leadership is is planners because then leadership is is viewed as diverse and then the viewed as diverse and then the viewed as diverse and then the congregation shifts from me and so it's congregation shifts from me and so it's congregation shifts from me and so it's the slower routes by far we think it's the slower routes by far we think it's the slower routes by far we think it's gonna yield more fruit than just trying gonna yield more fruit than just trying gonna yield more fruit than just trying to make some quick fix changes to try to make some quick fix changes to try to make some quick fix changes to try get a more diverse group of people in get a more diverse group of people in get a more diverse group of people in the room yeah that's I appreciate that I the room yeah that's I appreciate that I the room yeah that's I appreciate that I think that's a great thing for people to think that's a great thing for people to think that's a great thing for people to lean in on that what you're you know lean in on that what you're you know lean in on that what you're you know pursuing there is a long term solution pursuing there is a long term solution pursuing there is a long term solution but you're really trying to address the but you're really trying to address the but you're really trying to address the hard issue rather than less just hard issue rather than less just hard issue rather than less just window-dressing let's kind of paint over window-dressing let's kind of paint over window-dressing let's kind of paint over you know an issue and I thought I you know an issue and I thought I you know an issue and I thought I appreciate that that's it's amazing what appreciate that that's it's amazing what appreciate that that's it's amazing what kind of weekends look like or what is kind of weekends look like or what is kind of weekends look like or what is the kind of the style of your ministry the kind of the style of your ministry the kind of the style of your ministry and that you know the approach look like and that you know the approach look like and that you know the approach look like and how does that connect you know with and how does that connect you know with and how does that connect you know with the culture you're trying to reach yeah the culture you're trying to reach yeah the culture you're trying to reach yeah so um so because we're a church that was so um so because we're a church that was so um so because we're a church that was purely white during apartheid so this purely white during apartheid so this purely white during apartheid so this I'm throw over legacy from that right um I'm throw over legacy from that right um I'm throw over legacy from that right um and so we were still a kind of western and so we were still a kind of western and so we were still a kind of western in our worship styles but of trying to in our worship styles but of trying to in our worship styles but of trying to turn it into integrating change there we turn it into integrating change there we turn it into integrating change there we don't have a very big room so we've got don't have a very big room so we've got don't have a very big room so we've got a fawn in 52 room so we've got to do for a fawn in 52 room so we've got to do for a fawn in 52 room so we've got to do for for gatherings on a Sunday Wow and so for gatherings on a Sunday Wow and so for gatherings on a Sunday Wow and so your typical african black african your typical african black african your typical african black african gathering would be long and kind of lift

gathering would be long and kind of lift gathering would be long and kind of lift with lots of flow but we can't go there with lots of flow but we can't go there with lots of flow but we can't go there because we've got to get people in and because we've got to get people in and because we've got to get people in and out right the other price or times on a out right the other price or times on a out right the other price or times on a Sunday so so what we're trying to do is Sunday so so what we're trying to do is Sunday so so what we're trying to do is so our services would look very similar so our services would look very similar so our services would look very similar think someone in the US where in acts 29 think someone in the US where in acts 29 think someone in the US where in acts 29 church and so if you know where the next church and so if you know where the next church and so if you know where the next 25 services look like a lot like that 25 services look like a lot like that 25 services look like a lot like that but what we're trying to do is bring but what we're trying to do is bring but what we're trying to do is bring multilingualism in and and some more multilingualism in and and some more multilingualism in and and some more multicultural representation still multicultural representation still multicultural representation still contained in kind of our our western contained in kind of our our western contained in kind of our our western worship style which is just where we worship style which is just where we worship style which is just where we find ourselves so talk about find ourselves so talk about find ourselves so talk about multilingualism how are you doing that multilingualism how are you doing that multilingualism how are you doing that how are you achieving that yeah so so I how are you achieving that yeah so so I how are you achieving that yeah so so I forget 11 official languages and so forget 11 official languages and so forget 11 official languages and so that's amazing it's it's complex and so that's amazing it's it's complex and so that's amazing it's it's complex and so we find just little things we're just we find just little things we're just we find just little things we're just starting to do this now just starting to do this now just starting to do this now just acknowledging that you would have that acknowledging that you would have that acknowledging that you would have that many languages in the room is a good many languages in the room is a good many languages in the room is a good thing so just in terms of greetings you thing so just in terms of greetings you thing so just in terms of greetings you know your announcer when he's greeting know your announcer when he's greeting know your announcer when he's greeting the congregation greet in more than one the congregation greet in more than one the congregation greet in more than one language we're trying to start singing language we're trying to start singing language we're trying to start singing in to singing more than one language in in to singing more than one language in in to singing more than one language in a way this we hope isn't patronizing and a way this we hope isn't patronizing and a way this we hope isn't patronizing and so just just those little nods those so just just those little nods those so just just those little nods those subtle things to just say we acknowledge subtle things to just say we acknowledge subtle things to just say we acknowledge this as a as a value that there's a this as a as a value that there's a this as a as a value that there's a tapestry of language and culture in the tapestry of language and culture in the tapestry of language and culture in the room and we want to acknowledge that I room and we want to acknowledge that I room and we want to acknowledge that I wonder if you could talk about I'd love wonder if you could talk about I'd love wonder if you could talk about I'd love to hear more about the you know you and to hear more about the you know you and to hear more about the you know you and you acknowledge that you know your your you acknowledge that you know your your you acknowledge that you know your your suburb is obviously you know at the the suburb is obviously you know at the the suburb is obviously you know at the the kind of top of the scale economically kind of top of the scale economically kind of top of the scale economically for your community maybe the entire for your community maybe the entire for your community maybe the entire continent which is amazing and how are

continent which is amazing and how are continent which is amazing and how are you obviously a part of the gospel is you obviously a part of the gospel is you obviously a part of the gospel is reaching out to the poor among us and reaching out to the poor among us and reaching out to the poor among us and you have it you have the unique you know you have it you have the unique you know you have it you have the unique you know extreme example of that that it's it's extreme example of that that it's it's extreme example of that that it's it's literally right at your doorstep or literally right at your doorstep or literally right at your doorstep or right outside the wall give us a sense right outside the wall give us a sense right outside the wall give us a sense of how your church is dealing with that of how your church is dealing with that of how your church is dealing with that reality yeah so so a couple of things on reality yeah so so a couple of things on reality yeah so so a couple of things on we spent thirty to thirty-five percent we spent thirty to thirty-five percent we spent thirty to thirty-five percent of of of budgets on justice and mercy projects budgets on justice and mercy projects budgets on justice and mercy projects Wow which we just see wait wait a second Wow which we just see wait wait a second Wow which we just see wait wait a second when we get it back up here we're gonna when we get it back up here we're gonna when we get it back up here we're gonna move back this one up thirty to move back this one up thirty to move back this one up thirty to thirty-five percent of your also ends up thirty-five percent of your also ends up thirty-five percent of your also ends up in justice or outreach ministries yeah in justice or outreach ministries yeah in justice or outreach ministries yeah yeah so spent outside of the walls I'm yeah so spent outside of the walls I'm yeah so spent outside of the walls I'm usually on the first of the poor widows usually on the first of the poor widows usually on the first of the poor widows and orphans and again that's just a and orphans and again that's just a and orphans and again that's just a paying back privilege thing you paying back privilege thing you paying back privilege thing you gotta--you privileged and you got to pay gotta--you privileged and you got to pay gotta--you privileged and you got to pay this back so so that's a that's a value this back so so that's a that's a value this back so so that's a that's a value of our something we hope to define what of our something we hope to define what of our something we hope to define what does that look like how are you what are does that look like how are you what are does that look like how are you what are those you know I kind of how are you those you know I kind of how are you those you know I kind of how are you giving that what is that way is it giving that what is that way is it giving that what is that way is it programs are there are there other programs are there are there other programs are there are there other ministries that you're supporting are ministries that you're supporting are ministries that you're supporting are you doing direct kind of work what does you doing direct kind of work what does you doing direct kind of work what does that look like yeah combo of both so we that look like yeah combo of both so we that look like yeah combo of both so we align with justice and mercy projects align with justice and mercy projects align with justice and mercy projects that that really meet the end of of that that really meet the end of of that that really meet the end of of helping the vulnerable and preaching the helping the vulnerable and preaching the helping the vulnerable and preaching the gospel so we want to see those two gospel so we want to see those two gospel so we want to see those two things colliding and so if we can find things colliding and so if we can find things colliding and so if we can find meaningful partners that do both those meaningful partners that do both those meaningful partners that do both those things then then we want to fund the end things then then we want to fund the end things then then we want to fund the end part I can participate in a work but part I can participate in a work but part I can participate in a work but then we've got some really good projects then we've got some really good projects then we've got some really good projects that we run ourselves so so just down that we run ourselves so so just down that we run ourselves so so just down the road from this neighborhood is a the road from this neighborhood is a the road from this neighborhood is a river that runs and there's all bunch of river that runs and there's all bunch of river that runs and there's all bunch of homeless men that live in that river and homeless men that live in that river and homeless men that live in that river and so we've got a feeding into sac ship

so we've got a feeding into sac ship so we've got a feeding into sac ship scheme that runs from the church scheme that runs from the church scheme that runs from the church building which the neighborhood is building which the neighborhood is building which the neighborhood is finalised hated well that's a global finalised hated well that's a global finalised hated well that's a global reality that data every neighborhood I reality that data every neighborhood I reality that data every neighborhood I don't like when the church actually does don't like when the church actually does don't like when the church actually does what the true supposed to do I trying to what the true supposed to do I trying to what the true supposed to do I trying to operate those men into the life of the operate those men into the life of the operate those men into the life of the church so I'm not just making it a church so I'm not just making it a church so I'm not just making it a Phoenix game but trying to give them Phoenix game but trying to give them Phoenix game but trying to give them respect and an identity welcome them respect and an identity welcome them respect and an identity welcome them with warmth into the life and the with warmth into the life and the with warmth into the life and the rhythms of the congregation and and pull rhythms of the congregation and and pull rhythms of the congregation and and pull them in that way so we do that we're them in that way so we do that we're them in that way so we do that we're working in an informal settlement called working in an informal settlement called working in an informal settlement called kya sands which is a few kilometres away kya sands which is a few kilometres away kya sands which is a few kilometres away from us as well where you've got from us as well where you've got from us as well where you've got hundreds of kids who just the their hundreds of kids who just the their hundreds of kids who just the their parents off looking for work so they're parents off looking for work so they're parents off looking for work so they're not at preschool they're not being not at preschool they're not being not at preschool they're not being looked after and so we've got some a looked after and so we've got some a looked after and so we've got some a number of projects reaching out to those number of projects reaching out to those number of projects reaching out to those kids and their mothers as well so some kids and their mothers as well so some kids and their mothers as well so some listeners might be interested in you listeners might be interested in you listeners might be interested in you know how your church is impacted by or know how your church is impacted by or know how your church is impacted by or aiding you know the hiv/aids you know aiding you know the hiv/aids you know aiding you know the hiv/aids you know pandemic you know what for folks that pandemic you know what for folks that pandemic you know what for folks that don't know at one point south africa don't know at one point south africa don't know at one point south africa really wasn't acknowledging you know the really wasn't acknowledging you know the really wasn't acknowledging you know the HIV issue within its own borders but HIV issue within its own borders but HIV issue within its own borders but then that has chain turned around you then that has chain turned around you then that has chain turned around you talked talked talked about earlier you know the Lord it's about earlier you know the Lord it's about earlier you know the Lord it's unfortunately has the the you don't want unfortunately has the the you don't want unfortunately has the the you don't want to be at the top of that that list but to be at the top of that that list but to be at the top of that that list but unfortunately is the highest percentage unfortunately is the highest percentage unfortunately is the highest percentage of infections in the in the world how of infections in the in the world how of infections in the in the world how does that impact your church what does does that impact your church what does does that impact your church what does that look like what is you know how are that look like what is you know how are that look like what is you know how are you you know kind of an aiding that you you know kind of an aiding that you you know kind of an aiding that issue yes I mean again mainly in our issue yes I mean again mainly in our issue yes I mean again mainly in our justice ministry projects education is a justice ministry projects education is a justice ministry projects education is a massive angle like that you got to take massive angle like that you got to take massive angle like that you got to take on and understanding I mean listen I on and understanding I mean listen I on and understanding I mean listen I hope I don't offend your your us viewers

hope I don't offend your your us viewers hope I don't offend your your us viewers understanding the African context as understanding the African context as understanding the African context as well and just having some empathy and well and just having some empathy and well and just having some empathy and sympathy towards that and and starting sympathy towards that and and starting sympathy towards that and and starting to understand that may be a westerner to understand that may be a westerner to understand that may be a westerner with the Bible in his hand who isn't with the Bible in his hand who isn't with the Bible in his hand who isn't abstaining from sex arriving to tell a abstaining from sex arriving to tell a abstaining from sex arriving to tell a fourteen-year-old girl that she has to fourteen-year-old girl that she has to fourteen-year-old girl that she has to abstain it doesn't always work okay so abstain it doesn't always work okay so abstain it doesn't always work okay so it's trying to educate people in other it's trying to educate people in other it's trying to educate people in other ways that they can prevent infection as ways that they can prevent infection as ways that they can prevent infection as well and so we don't see that as a well and so we don't see that as a well and so we don't see that as a dilution of the gospel message we want dilution of the gospel message we want dilution of the gospel message we want to call people to sexual purity but we to call people to sexual purity but we to call people to sexual purity but we also only really expect Christians they also only really expect Christians they also only really expect Christians they act like Christians and calling act like Christians and calling act like Christians and calling non-christians that like Christians non-christians that like Christians non-christians that like Christians doesn't work and so we've seen those doesn't work and so we've seen those doesn't work and so we've seen those campaigns coming from the west and I campaigns coming from the west and I campaigns coming from the west and I haven't yielded fruit in this part of haven't yielded fruit in this part of haven't yielded fruit in this part of the world and so just trying to get an the world and so just trying to get an the world and so just trying to get an understanding with that and really understanding with that and really understanding with that and really pushing towards education both in our pushing towards education both in our pushing towards education both in our congregation but then also in the congregation but then also in the congregation but then also in the projects that we partner with and then projects that we partner with and then projects that we partner with and then helping to clean up the mess so really helping to clean up the mess so really helping to clean up the mess so really pushing towards caring for AIDS orphans pushing towards caring for AIDS orphans pushing towards caring for AIDS orphans because this there's millions of them so because this there's millions of them so because this there's millions of them so you're really going to push to that you're really going to push to that you're really going to push to that amazing this has been super according to amazing this has been super according to amazing this has been super according to here and just learn a little bit more here and just learn a little bit more here and just learn a little bit more about your you know your church what about your you know your church what about your you know your church what else would you you know when you think else would you you know when you think else would you you know when you think about I you know I'm asking you to kind about I you know I'm asking you to kind about I you know I'm asking you to kind of speak to our US listeners you know of speak to our US listeners you know of speak to our US listeners you know there's a vast majority people that there's a vast majority people that there's a vast majority people that listen this podcaster our church leaders listen this podcaster our church leaders listen this podcaster our church leaders and from the states and you know how and from the states and you know how and from the states and you know how would you say kind of looking into our would you say kind of looking into our would you say kind of looking into our culture and you studied here for a while culture and you studied here for a while culture and you studied here for a while so you have a good sense of you know so you have a good sense of you know so you have a good sense of you know what's happening here what are some of what's happening here what are some of what's happening here what are some of those lessons that you can apply from those lessons that you can apply from those lessons that you can apply from you know your experience to to us and you know your experience to to us and you know your experience to to us and what are some things we should be

what are some things we should be what are some things we should be thinking about yeah so I'm a few things thinking about yeah so I'm a few things thinking about yeah so I'm a few things I mean I think what I see happening in I mean I think what I see happening in I mean I think what I see happening in the US at the moment is evangelical the US at the moment is evangelical the US at the moment is evangelical Christian are being pushed to the Christian are being pushed to the Christian are being pushed to the fringes and there's a lot of panic about fringes and there's a lot of panic about fringes and there's a lot of panic about in society and I understand that because in society and I understand that because in society and I understand that because it's been right at the center of kind of it's been right at the center of kind of it's been right at the center of kind of the lifeblood of American identity for a the lifeblood of American identity for a the lifeblood of American identity for a long time but but but that's where long time but but but that's where long time but but but that's where Christianity flourishes is on the Christianity flourishes is on the Christianity flourishes is on the fringes where your sojourners and aliens fringes where your sojourners and aliens fringes where your sojourners and aliens and exiles in a strange land and and us and exiles in a strange land and and us and exiles in a strange land and and us Christians are going to have to get used Christians are going to have to get used Christians are going to have to get used to being those things and living like to being those things and living like to being those things and living like those things exiles in their own land those things exiles in their own land those things exiles in their own land and sojourners and aliens and so I think and sojourners and aliens and so I think and sojourners and aliens and so I think some energy is going to need to go to some energy is going to need to go to some energy is going to need to go to kind of just owning that identity and kind of just owning that identity and kind of just owning that identity and then living that identity is good news then living that identity is good news then living that identity is good news you know when I look at the book of Acts you know when I look at the book of Acts you know when I look at the book of Acts people love the actions of the early people love the actions of the early people love the actions of the early church and I hated their doctrine and church and I hated their doctrine and church and I hated their doctrine and and that's where I think us Christians and that's where I think us Christians and that's where I think us Christians are being pushed towards but they're are being pushed towards but they're are being pushed towards but they're only going to love you your actions if only going to love you your actions if only going to love you your actions if your actions are evidence so the days of your actions are evidence so the days of your actions are evidence so the days of cultural Christianity I think are over cultural Christianity I think are over cultural Christianity I think are over but I think the days of being real but I think the days of being real but I think the days of being real crushed followers is is exciting if crushed followers is is exciting if crushed followers is is exciting if people can't can own it so it will be people can't can own it so it will be people can't can own it so it will be hard will be persecution that's a given hard will be persecution that's a given hard will be persecution that's a given but I think you'll get a true core of but I think you'll get a true core of but I think you'll get a true core of Christianity starting to emerge and so Christianity starting to emerge and so Christianity starting to emerge and so that would be the one thing I mean in that would be the one thing I mean in that would be the one thing I mean in line with that a little bit is a lot of line with that a little bit is a lot of line with that a little bit is a lot of the the arguments that I see coming out the the arguments that I see coming out the the arguments that I see coming out of the West about like got to be careful

of the West about like got to be careful of the West about like got to be careful not to engage in a social gospel no one not to engage in a social gospel no one not to engage in a social gospel no one has those arguments in the development has those arguments in the development has those arguments in the development but starving pretty quick right the but starving pretty quick right the but starving pretty quick right the possible mandates I must feed these kids possible mandates I must feed these kids possible mandates I must feed these kids right and I'm not too worried about right and I'm not too worried about right and I'm not too worried about doing that in a way that might accuse me doing that in a way that might accuse me doing that in a way that might accuse me of being part of the social gospel I'm of being part of the social gospel I'm of being part of the social gospel I'm doing it because of Jesus Christ and doing it because of Jesus Christ and doing it because of Jesus Christ and then yup and it's God and He died for me then yup and it's God and He died for me then yup and it's God and He died for me and he died for these kids and he and he died for these kids and he and he died for these kids and he breathed his image and likeness into breathed his image and likeness into breathed his image and likeness into these children and so I'm not going to these children and so I'm not going to these children and so I'm not going to sit around and pontificates about hmm is sit around and pontificates about hmm is sit around and pontificates about hmm is this blurring a line of the true gospel this blurring a line of the true gospel this blurring a line of the true gospel suck no it's the natural outworking of suck no it's the natural outworking of suck no it's the natural outworking of my love and affection for christ and so my love and affection for christ and so my love and affection for christ and so there's a lot of debate that happens in there's a lot of debate that happens in there's a lot of debate that happens in the West that doesn't happen in the rest the West that doesn't happen in the rest the West that doesn't happen in the rest of the book because the needs to great of the book because the needs to great of the book because the needs to great know so I'm a doctrine guy so defend know so I'm a doctrine guy so defend know so I'm a doctrine guy so defend good doctrine but live this thing out no good doctrine but live this thing out no good doctrine but live this thing out no absolutely no I appreciate that I think absolutely no I appreciate that I think absolutely no I appreciate that I think that's a good word I hope people that's a good word I hope people that's a good word I hope people listened in and leaned in there another listened in and leaned in there another listened in and leaned in there another issue kind of related issue kind of related issue kind of related you know I think there is a there you know I think there is a there you know I think there is a there continues to be a an awakening a concern continues to be a an awakening a concern continues to be a an awakening a concern about reckon you know racial about reckon you know racial about reckon you know racial reconciliation in our country you have reconciliation in our country you have reconciliation in our country you have anything to speak to that the thing I anything to speak to that the thing I anything to speak to that the thing I you know the obviously the process that you know the obviously the process that you know the obviously the process that you're you know homelands been through you're you know homelands been through you're you know homelands been through has been a you know amazing anything has been a you know amazing anything has been a you know amazing anything that you from that perspective that you that you from that perspective that you that you from that perspective that you could kind of speak into you know to our could kind of speak into you know to our could kind of speak into you know to our experience here in the States yeah I experience here in the States yeah I experience here in the States yeah I think I think people have got to be think I think people have got to be think I think people have got to be prepared to have uncomfortable prepared to have uncomfortable prepared to have uncomfortable conversations and this kind of notion of conversations and this kind of notion of conversations and this kind of notion of colorblindness doesn't work and so if we colorblindness doesn't work and so if we colorblindness doesn't work and so if we just say we're colorblind we're in

just say we're colorblind we're in just say we're colorblind we're in denial so I think we've got to get into denial so I think we've got to get into denial so I think we've got to get into some conversations where we're some conversations where we're some conversations where we're empathetic listeners to start with empathetic listeners to start with empathetic listeners to start with instead of just guys shutting down instead of just guys shutting down instead of just guys shutting down another people group and I think this is another people group and I think this is another people group and I think this is particularly dangerous for white particularly dangerous for white particularly dangerous for white Americans because your vast majority Americans because your vast majority Americans because your vast majority there and so you can shut down there and so you can shut down there and so you can shut down dissenting voices but i think the gospel dissenting voices but i think the gospel dissenting voices but i think the gospel which has removed the wall of hostility which has removed the wall of hostility which has removed the wall of hostility between people of different ethnic between people of different ethnic between people of different ethnic groups you know to Ephesians 2 really groups you know to Ephesians 2 really groups you know to Ephesians 2 really needs to need to be driving us to be needs to need to be driving us to be needs to need to be driving us to be listeners and to be compassionate listeners and to be compassionate listeners and to be compassionate listeners it's the agents of change so listeners it's the agents of change so listeners it's the agents of change so like the big thing that I've seen here like the big thing that I've seen here like the big thing that I've seen here is people owning and understanding is people owning and understanding is people owning and understanding whiteness and the privilege that comes whiteness and the privilege that comes whiteness and the privilege that comes with that not defending against that with that not defending against that with that not defending against that just going yep if I've benefited from just going yep if I've benefited from just going yep if I've benefited from our pigmentation a great deal now what our pigmentation a great deal now what our pigmentation a great deal now what do i do if people get to that point I do i do if people get to that point I do i do if people get to that point I see a lot of barriers coming down see a lot of barriers coming down see a lot of barriers coming down absolutely this is though this has been absolutely this is though this has been absolutely this is though this has been fantastic anything you want to share fantastic anything you want to share fantastic anything you want to share before we wrap up today um yeah man I before we wrap up today um yeah man I before we wrap up today um yeah man I just think church leaders out there just just think church leaders out there just just think church leaders out there just do what Christ I'll she to do which is do what Christ I'll she to do which is do what Christ I'll she to do which is to make disciples don't don't buy into to make disciples don't don't buy into to make disciples don't don't buy into the hype of selling religious goods and the hype of selling religious goods and the hype of selling religious goods and services um when people to Christ services um when people to Christ services um when people to Christ disciple tend to maturity and just do it disciple tend to maturity and just do it disciple tend to maturity and just do it again and again and again and again if again and again and again and again if again and again and again and again if God gives you lots of people praise him God gives you lots of people praise him God gives you lots of people praise him if you give you a few people stay if you give you a few people stay if you give you a few people stay faithful with them it's simplified just faithful with them it's simplified just faithful with them it's simplified just make disciples just on across that way make disciples just on across that way make disciples just on across that way that's that's what we call today very that's that's what we call today very that's that's what we call today very cool Ross if people want to get in touch cool Ross if people want to get in touch cool Ross if people want to get in touch with you or with the church how can they

with you or with the church how can they with you or with the church how can they do that the website for the church is do that the website for the church is do that the website for the church is BBC oog BBC oog BBC oog za and my twitter handle is a cross za and my twitter handle is a cross za and my twitter handle is a cross Lester fantastic thanks so much for Lester fantastic thanks so much for Lester fantastic thanks so much for being on the show today rich thanks for being on the show today rich thanks for being on the show today rich thanks for having me bro thank you for tuning in to having me bro thank you for tuning in to having me bro thank you for tuning in to this week's unsung re podcast don't be this week's unsung re podcast don't be this week's unsung re podcast don't be shy we'd love to connect check out uncen shy we'd love to connect check out uncen shy we'd love to connect check out uncen re inbox you can sign up at unsummon re re inbox you can sign up at unsummon re re inbox you can sign up at unsummon re calm and we'll send you helpful training calm and we'll send you helpful training calm and we'll send you helpful training resources every week plus you'll gain resources every week plus you'll gain resources every week plus you'll gain immediate access to our exclusive immediate access to our exclusive immediate access to our exclusive members area with tons of resources you members area with tons of resources you members area with tons of resources you can use connect with rich on Twitter add can use connect with rich on Twitter add can use connect with rich on Twitter add rich birch or through email rich at rich birch or through email rich at rich birch or through email rich at unsummon re com don't forget to check unsummon re com don't forget to check unsummon re com don't forget to check out the show notes for this episode at out the show notes for this episode at out the show notes for this episode at unset Maneri com it includes links to unset Maneri com it includes links to unset Maneri com it includes links to what we talked about today and more what we talked about today and more what we talked about today and more leave a comment we'd love to hear from leave a comment we'd love to hear from leave a comment we'd love to hear from you did you enjoy today's episode drop you did you enjoy today's episode drop you did you enjoy today's episode drop by itunes and leave a review thanks by itunes and leave a review thanks by itunes and leave a review thanks again for tuning in to this week's on again for tuning in to this week's on again for tuning in to this week's on seminary podcast join us next week when seminary podcast join us next week when seminary podcast join us next week when we'll learn more stuff we wish they we'll learn more stuff we wish they we'll learn more stuff we wish they taught in seminary