Mitch Harrison on Re-engineering Staff Structures for Future Growth

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today is no exception we've happening in today is no exception we've happening in today is no exception we've got Mitch Harrison he is the executive got Mitch Harrison he is the executive got Mitch Harrison he is the executive pastor at a great Church canyon ridge pastor at a great Church canyon ridge pastor at a great Church canyon ridge christian church in las vegas of all christian church in las vegas of all christian church in las vegas of all things there's christians in las vegas things there's christians in las vegas things there's christians in las vegas that's amazing uh you know it's a great that's amazing uh you know it's a great that's amazing uh you know it's a great church been around for about 20 years church been around for about 20 years church been around for about 20 years they've got to locate locations plus the they've got to locate locations plus the they've got to locate locations plus the church online welcome to the show Mitch church online welcome to the show Mitch church online welcome to the show Mitch thanks rich thanks for having me man why thanks rich thanks for having me man why thanks rich thanks for having me man why don't you tell us a little bit about the

don't you tell us a little bit about the don't you tell us a little bit about the church can I give us a sense of the church can I give us a sense of the church can I give us a sense of the flavor of your ministry if people were flavor of your ministry if people were flavor of your ministry if people were to show up this weekend what would the to show up this weekend what would the to show up this weekend what would the experience yeah sure I mean we're we're experience yeah sure I mean we're we're experience yeah sure I mean we're we're kind of like any other contemporary kind of like any other contemporary kind of like any other contemporary church you know band all that stuff lean church you know band all that stuff lean church you know band all that stuff lean worship great messages you know kids worship great messages you know kids worship great messages you know kids ministry those kind of things been here ministry those kind of things been here ministry those kind of things been here in Vegas for I think what we're 23 years in Vegas for I think what we're 23 years in Vegas for I think what we're 23 years old now and you know started in the old now and you know started in the old now and you know started in the early 90s with that kind of whole early 90s with that kind of whole early 90s with that kind of whole movement of churches came up you know movement of churches came up you know movement of churches came up you know you know watching Saddleback watching you know watching Saddleback watching you know watching Saddleback watching Willow Creek you know and learn from Willow Creek you know and learn from Willow Creek you know and learn from those guys you know you get out here 17 those guys you know you get out here 17 those guys you know you get out here 17 or 18 years or so you start realizing or 18 years or so you start realizing or 18 years or so you start realizing hey maybe things need to change a little hey maybe things need to change a little hey maybe things need to change a little bit and so we're have really in the last bit and so we're have really in the last bit and so we're have really in the last years kind of been through through that years kind of been through through that years kind of been through through that kind of process you know I've changed kind of process you know I've changed kind of process you know I've changed you know built a big campus took on a you know built a big campus took on a you know built a big campus took on a lot of debt have stuff like that to lot of debt have stuff like that to lot of debt have stuff like that to worry about and two years ago launched worry about and two years ago launched worry about and two years ago launched her our first satellite campus from here her our first satellite campus from here her our first satellite campus from here and finally kind of stepped into that and finally kind of stepped into that and finally kind of stepped into that looking at potentially doing another one looking at potentially doing another one looking at potentially doing another one this coming year as well very cool so this coming year as well very cool so this coming year as well very cool so yeah so it's kind of a kind of where we yeah so it's kind of a kind of where we yeah so it's kind of a kind of where we are well over some of those changes that are well over some of those changes that are well over some of those changes that you started to make you know four or you started to make you know four or you started to make you know four or five years ago as you start thinking five years ago as you start thinking five years ago as you start thinking you're coming up against a lot of you're coming up against a lot of you're coming up against a lot of churches seem to they they push up churches seem to they they push up churches seem to they they push up against that 20 year mark somewhere against that 20 year mark somewhere against that 20 year mark somewhere around there something happens where around there something happens where around there something happens where you're like we need to think about you're like we need to think about you're like we need to think about changing yeah right and you know and I changing yeah right and you know and I changing yeah right and you know and I think there really is that life cycle of think there really is that life cycle of think there really is that life cycle of churches you know somebody told us churches you know somebody told us churches you know somebody told us somewhere along the way that typical somewhere along the way that typical somewhere along the way that typical church's life cycle is about 40 years church's life cycle is about 40 years church's life cycle is about 40 years and you go from you know startup

and you go from you know startup and you go from you know startup accelerating booming and then somewhere accelerating booming and then somewhere accelerating booming and then somewhere around the 20 year mark you kind of peak around the 20 year mark you kind of peak around the 20 year mark you kind of peak and then if you don't do something and then if you don't do something and then if you don't do something different right around then you know if different right around then you know if different right around then you know if it starts a slow decline that can turn it starts a slow decline that can turn it starts a slow decline that can turn into a really accelerate decline that's into a really accelerate decline that's into a really accelerate decline that's not careful and in fact the church I not careful and in fact the church I not careful and in fact the church I grew up in and a traditional southern grew up in and a traditional southern grew up in and a traditional southern baptist church went through exactly that baptist church went through exactly that baptist church went through exactly that pattern and then end up selling their pattern and then end up selling their pattern and then end up selling their buildings and bulldoze in them and it buildings and bulldoze in them and it buildings and bulldoze in them and it was not not fun to watch but no for us was not not fun to watch but no for us was not not fun to watch but no for us we you know we started realizing that a we you know we started realizing that a we you know we started realizing that a couple of factors had kind of collided couple of factors had kind of collided couple of factors had kind of collided and you could feel it about 2008 you and you could feel it about 2008 you and you could feel it about 2008 you know when the economy crashed we were 16 know when the economy crashed we were 16 know when the economy crashed we were 16 17 years old 18 years old right around 17 years old 18 years old right around 17 years old 18 years old right around that period of time and so when the that period of time and so when the that period of time and so when the economy crashed here I mean I know economy crashed here I mean I know economy crashed here I mean I know everybody felt it all over the country everybody felt it all over the country everybody felt it all over the country the zip code that our church sits in was the zip code that our church sits in was the zip code that our church sits in was it really at the epicenter of the it really at the epicenter of the it really at the epicenter of the foreclosure I said one in six homes were foreclosure I said one in six homes were foreclosure I said one in six homes were vacant in our area all of a sudden after vacant in our area all of a sudden after vacant in our area all of a sudden after years of off the charts growth right and years of off the charts growth right and years of off the charts growth right and so one of the things that we noticed was so one of the things that we noticed was so one of the things that we noticed was probably a lot of our growth that had probably a lot of our growth that had probably a lot of our growth that had happened over the years had happened happened over the years had happened happened over the years had happened because we were the only real large because we were the only real large because we were the only real large church on this side of town and so when church on this side of town and so when church on this side of town and so when you have you know seven thousand people you have you know seven thousand people you have you know seven thousand people a month moving to your city and a large a month moving to your city and a large a month moving to your city and a large portion of the moving to your side of portion of the moving to your side of portion of the moving to your side of town town town right people are going to find your right people are going to find your right people are going to find your church and they they found ours and so church and they they found ours and so church and they they found ours and so what we thought was a really

what we thought was a really what we thought was a really well-crafted evangelism strategy was well-crafted evangelism strategy was well-crafted evangelism strategy was probably fueled a lot by people just probably fueled a lot by people just probably fueled a lot by people just moving here and so a lot of us things we moving here and so a lot of us things we moving here and so a lot of us things we started recognizing a lot of our church started recognizing a lot of our church started recognizing a lot of our church growth had come just because people growth had come just because people growth had come just because people moved here it's amazing when all of that moved here it's amazing when all of that moved here it's amazing when all of that slowed down and started actually going slowed down and started actually going slowed down and started actually going the other direction people began moving the other direction people began moving the other direction people began moving out right of this area and leaving out right of this area and leaving out right of this area and leaving because of the jobs and homes and all because of the jobs and homes and all because of the jobs and homes and all that stuff we started really seeing some that stuff we started really seeing some that stuff we started really seeing some of the weaknesses and the cracks in our of the weaknesses and the cracks in our of the weaknesses and the cracks in our ministry while having to ask ourselves ministry while having to ask ourselves ministry while having to ask ourselves some tough questions you know what we some tough questions you know what we some tough questions you know what we thought we knew what we were about and I thought we knew what we were about and I thought we knew what we were about and I think we did I mean I think we think we did I mean I think we think we did I mean I think we legitimately did some good things but legitimately did some good things but legitimately did some good things but then having to really examine what are then having to really examine what are then having to really examine what are we going to be about going forward from we going to be about going forward from we going to be about going forward from here and so we started taking a look here and so we started taking a look here and so we started taking a look first of all at our staff and asking if first of all at our staff and asking if first of all at our staff and asking if we're going to go farther from here what we're going to go farther from here what we're going to go farther from here what what kind of staffing are we going to what kind of staffing are we going to what kind of staffing are we going to need and not that the people that have need and not that the people that have need and not that the people that have brought us this far and good people and brought us this far and good people and brought us this far and good people and helpful people but are we all still kind helpful people but are we all still kind helpful people but are we all still kind of in our sweet spot are we all still of in our sweet spot are we all still of in our sweet spot are we all still really you know operating in our optimum really you know operating in our optimum really you know operating in our optimum when it comes to our roles on staff and when it comes to our roles on staff and when it comes to our roles on staff and that kind of thing well be before we that kind of thing well be before we that kind of thing well be before we jump into that I just want to underline jump into that I just want to underline jump into that I just want to underline you know I think this is one of those you know I think this is one of those you know I think this is one of those stories right I think we've heard so stories right I think we've heard so stories right I think we've heard so many times you know through the kind of many times you know through the kind of many times you know through the kind of Great Recession we all heard about Vegas Great Recession we all heard about Vegas Great Recession we all heard about Vegas right like it was it was always at the right like it was it was always at the right like it was it was always at the top of the list it was like that and top of the list it was like that and top of the list it was like that and Miami kept coming up in those Miami kept coming up in those Miami kept coming up in those conversations about like just the you conversations about like just the you conversations about like just the you know absolute kind of implosion the know absolute kind of implosion the know absolute kind of implosion the thing I I and I don't want to give the

thing I I and I don't want to give the thing I I and I don't want to give the punchline away but the thing I love punchline away but the thing I love punchline away but the thing I love about this conversation is you know about this conversation is you know about this conversation is you know that's a terrible situation obviously that's a terrible situation obviously that's a terrible situation obviously incredible you know to find yourself in incredible you know to find yourself in incredible you know to find yourself in the midst of you know one of those the midst of you know one of those the midst of you know one of those situations it's like you can't control situations it's like you can't control situations it's like you can't control the economy or the subprime mortgage you the economy or the subprime mortgage you the economy or the subprime mortgage you know like that you know but God God used know like that you know but God God used know like that you know but God God used a really negative situation and I think a really negative situation and I think a really negative situation and I think has turned that around has used that you has turned that around has used that you has turned that around has used that you know the pressure that that created to know the pressure that that created to know the pressure that that created to shift and make some changes which shift and make some changes which shift and make some changes which ultimately in only like only way that ultimately in only like only way that ultimately in only like only way that God can do that has ended up you know God can do that has ended up you know God can do that has ended up you know using those changes to see you know using those changes to see you know using those changes to see you know difference makes so what were some of difference makes so what were some of difference makes so what were some of those changes from the staff site you those changes from the staff site you those changes from the staff site you talked about hey we need to kind of talked about hey we need to kind of talked about hey we need to kind of re-engineer some of those structures re-engineer some of those structures re-engineer some of those structures what that looked like yeah well I think what that looked like yeah well I think what that looked like yeah well I think the first the first thing that we the first the first thing that we the first the first thing that we started thinking about was how do we do started thinking about was how do we do started thinking about was how do we do this with less people because there this with less people because there this with less people because there really wasn't mine and we cut about in really wasn't mine and we cut about in really wasn't mine and we cut about in over a 10 or 12 month period of time we over a 10 or 12 month period of time we over a 10 or 12 month period of time we cut about eight hundred thousand dollars cut about eight hundred thousand dollars cut about eight hundred thousand dollars out of our budget we cut everything out of our budget we cut everything out of our budget we cut everything except sat except staff salaries we we except sat except staff salaries we we except sat except staff salaries we we didn't do a lot of rehiring when there didn't do a lot of rehiring when there didn't do a lot of rehiring when there was attrition Wow but we we were able to was attrition Wow but we we were able to was attrition Wow but we we were able to make it through that season without make it through that season without make it through that season without having to lay anybody off well what we having to lay anybody off well what we having to lay anybody off well what we realize coming out of that was that we realize coming out of that was that we realize coming out of that was that we were going to have to go after higher were going to have to go after higher were going to have to go after higher caliber leaders that could be people caliber leaders that could be people caliber leaders that could be people developers and and then have less of developers and and then have less of developers and and then have less of them you know hey them more and have them you know hey them more and have them you know hey them more and have less of them right and really that was less of them right and really that was less of them right and really that was one of the shifts in and you know I one of the shifts in and you know I one of the shifts in and you know I don't want to make it you know the dirty don't want to make it you know the dirty don't want to make it you know the dirty little secret of church ministry but I

little secret of church ministry but I little secret of church ministry but I think there is a time in your church's think there is a time in your church's think there is a time in your church's ministry when you have to say we have to ministry when you have to say we have to ministry when you have to say we have to go after a higher caliber of leaders and go after a higher caliber of leaders and go after a higher caliber of leaders and that's going to cost us more which means that's going to cost us more which means that's going to cost us more which means we're going to have less staff and have we're going to have less staff and have we're going to have less staff and have to really get on the job of developing to really get on the job of developing to really get on the job of developing people around on the back end of it I people around on the back end of it I people around on the back end of it I appreciate you underlining that appreciate you underlining that appreciate you underlining that highlighting that because I think that's highlighting that because I think that's highlighting that because I think that's one of those things that operates in the one of those things that operates in the one of those things that operates in the background and we may think about as background and we may think about as background and we may think about as executive pastors like whom this is you executive pastors like whom this is you executive pastors like whom this is you know is a part of the reality but but know is a part of the reality but but know is a part of the reality but but this is so true I've set it to so many this is so true I've set it to so many this is so true I've set it to so many young leaders the way that you increase young leaders the way that you increase young leaders the way that you increase your value and frankly the way you'll your value and frankly the way you'll your value and frankly the way you'll get paid more in ministry is by being a get paid more in ministry is by being a get paid more in ministry is by being a releaser of leaders people who are able releaser of leaders people who are able releaser of leaders people who are able to to build teams you know structure to to build teams you know structure to to build teams you know structure them well release leaders of those teams them well release leaders of those teams them well release leaders of those teams long all day long you know that I long all day long you know that I long all day long you know that I remember my dad when I was a kid he used remember my dad when I was a kid he used remember my dad when I was a kid he used to always say a good salesman always has to always say a good salesman always has to always say a good salesman always has a job and it was the same thing in into a job and it was the same thing in into a job and it was the same thing in into church world if you can develop and church world if you can develop and church world if you can develop and release leaders and do that all day long release leaders and do that all day long release leaders and do that all day long you know you'll you'll you'll be fine you know you'll you'll you'll be fine you know you'll you'll you'll be fine you'll be able to and be super valuable you'll be able to and be super valuable you'll be able to and be super valuable to the kingdom for sure yeah and you to the kingdom for sure yeah and you to the kingdom for sure yeah and you know we heard that echo like it last know we heard that echo like it last know we heard that echo like it last year's leadership summit so many of the year's leadership summit so many of the year's leadership summit so many of the speakers talked about how your success speakers talked about how your success speakers talked about how your success is really measured by the success that is really measured by the success that is really measured by the success that others are having around you how are you others are having around you how are you others are having around you how are you helping helping helping others to have success and could we go others to have success and could we go others to have success and could we go out and find leaders who were who led out and find leaders who were who led out and find leaders who were who led like that who leveraged their success like that who leveraged their success like that who leveraged their success through other people and you know it and

through other people and you know it and through other people and you know it and then for those of us who want to stick then for those of us who want to stick then for those of us who want to stick around here I mean we had to ask that around here I mean we had to ask that around here I mean we had to ask that question of ourselves and I that kind of question of ourselves and I that kind of question of ourselves and I that kind of leader who really cares about success of leader who really cares about success of leader who really cares about success of others and and you know elevating others others and and you know elevating others others and and you know elevating others and developing their leadership how did and developing their leadership how did and developing their leadership how did you um you know how did you go about you um you know how did you go about you um you know how did you go about kind of defining that like so or really kind of defining that like so or really kind of defining that like so or really kind of working that out looking you kind of working that out looking you kind of working that out looking you know just practically even how did you know just practically even how did you know just practically even how did you kind of benchmark like here are some kind of benchmark like here are some kind of benchmark like here are some leaders that are doing a great job on leaders that are doing a great job on leaders that are doing a great job on our team here's what that looks like our team here's what that looks like our team here's what that looks like here are some people that maybe aren't here are some people that maybe aren't here are some people that maybe aren't on the right seat on the bus you know on the right seat on the bus you know on the right seat on the bus you know and and how do how do you deal with that and and how do how do you deal with that and and how do how do you deal with that what did what did you do to kind of over what did what did you do to kind of over what did what did you do to kind of over the litmus test that you were using the litmus test that you were using the litmus test that you were using through that process yeah you know I through that process yeah you know I through that process yeah you know I wish I could tell you man only has it wish I could tell you man only has it wish I could tell you man only has it really carefully crafted you know really carefully crafted you know really carefully crafted you know document that spelled all that outfits document that spelled all that outfits document that spelled all that outfits like a pass on everybody all hybels is like a pass on everybody all hybels is like a pass on everybody all hybels is the only guy with that stuff so it's the only guy with that stuff so it's the only guy with that stuff so it's fine you know okay okay so if I said we fine you know okay okay so if I said we fine you know okay okay so if I said we went like this and kind of kind of did went like this and kind of kind of did went like this and kind of kind of did this number you know it was maybe a this number you know it was maybe a this number you know it was maybe a little more sophisticated than that but little more sophisticated than that but little more sophisticated than that but you know we really tried to look for you know we really tried to look for you know we really tried to look for people who are building things and who people who are building things and who people who are building things and who had built something who had taken a had built something who had taken a had built something who had taken a pocket of leadership and really expanded pocket of leadership and really expanded pocket of leadership and really expanded that or a pocket of ministry and that or a pocket of ministry and that or a pocket of ministry and expanded that who really had elevated expanded that who really had elevated expanded that who really had elevated others and who kind of were known for others and who kind of were known for others and who kind of were known for that and you know we we started asking that and you know we we started asking that and you know we we started asking our staff the question are you really in our staff the question are you really in our staff the question are you really in your sweet spot right you know a lot of your sweet spot right you know a lot of your sweet spot right you know a lot of times I think in church staff as you as times I think in church staff as you as times I think in church staff as you as you grow and as you try to be efficient you grow and as you try to be efficient you grow and as you try to be efficient with what you're doing especially with with what you're doing especially with with what you're doing especially with money you find people on your staff who money you find people on your staff who money you find people on your staff who can do what you need to do but maybe

can do what you need to do but maybe can do what you need to do but maybe they're not necessarily specifically they're not necessarily specifically they're not necessarily specifically called that or gifted I mean they're called that or gifted I mean they're called that or gifted I mean they're just there because they want to help the just there because they want to help the just there because they want to help the church grow their enthusiastic they church grow their enthusiastic they church grow their enthusiastic they bought into the cause they bought into bought into the cause they bought into bought into the cause they bought into the organization they're good people the organization they're good people the organization they're good people they're solid people and they'll do they're solid people and they'll do they're solid people and they'll do whatever and so you take people like whatever and so you take people like whatever and so you take people like that you know and you kind of as needs that you know and you kind of as needs that you know and you kind of as needs arise you kind of steer those kind of arise you kind of steer those kind of arise you kind of steer those kind of people towards needs well I think there people towards needs well I think there people towards needs well I think there came a point where we start having to came a point where we start having to came a point where we start having to say that's that's great for say that's that's great for say that's that's great for while but if you want to go beyond that while but if you want to go beyond that while but if you want to go beyond that what you gotta do is start asking is what you gotta do is start asking is what you gotta do is start asking is this person really in their sweet spot this person really in their sweet spot this person really in their sweet spot of what this particular role is about in of what this particular role is about in of what this particular role is about in our organization and are they really our organization and are they really our organization and are they really called to this or are they just filling called to this or are they just filling called to this or are they just filling it because they can write and so really it because they can write and so really it because they can write and so really having to get get honest about that with having to get get honest about that with having to get get honest about that with ourselves and honest with the people who ourselves and honest with the people who ourselves and honest with the people who are sitting in those kind of seats again are sitting in those kind of seats again are sitting in those kind of seats again who are who are the best people they're who are who are the best people they're who are who are the best people they're usually the most willing people because usually the most willing people because usually the most willing people because they will take on anything but that kind they will take on anything but that kind they will take on anything but that kind of is the problem right is they have of is the problem right is they have of is the problem right is they have taken they've taken on anything you know taken they've taken on anything you know taken they've taken on anything you know that they can do but not necessarily in that they can do but not necessarily in that they can do but not necessarily in the spot where they are doing what only the spot where they are doing what only the spot where they are doing what only bacon that's good that is a good inside bacon that's good that is a good inside bacon that's good that is a good inside I hope you've caught that if you're I hope you've caught that if you're I hope you've caught that if you're listening in I know one of the practices listening in I know one of the practices listening in I know one of the practices we do in our in our church is at the end we do in our in our church is at the end we do in our in our church is at the end of every year we basically we ask people of every year we basically we ask people of every year we basically we ask people to really rewrite their job description to really rewrite their job description to really rewrite their job description to actively say okay what is it and we to actively say okay what is it and we to actively say okay what is it and we try to call out over time move people try to call out over time move people try to call out over time move people closer and closer to their sweet spot closer and closer to their sweet spot closer and closer to their sweet spot where they're doing more of what that where they're doing more of what that where they're doing more of what that where they are thriving and then less of

where they are thriving and then less of where they are thriving and then less of the things how do we you know move that the things how do we you know move that the things how do we you know move that stuff around now the interesting thing stuff around now the interesting thing stuff around now the interesting thing we had a woman that was with us for all we had a woman that was with us for all we had a woman that was with us for all she's on my team and in a lot of ways she's on my team and in a lot of ways she's on my team and in a lot of ways she was like my right hand she was she was like my right hand she was she was like my right hand she was incredible a year ago she got married incredible a year ago she got married incredible a year ago she got married you know her husband you know lives a you know her husband you know lives a you know her husband you know lives a ways away and so she had to move on it ways away and so she had to move on it ways away and so she had to move on it was interesting in that process over the was interesting in that process over the was interesting in that process over the years her job description had evolved so years her job description had evolved so years her job description had evolved so much do and she was totally in her sweet much do and she was totally in her sweet much do and she was totally in her sweet spot when we stepped back and went to spot when we stepped back and went to spot when we stepped back and went to fair game we got to figure out how we're fair game we got to figure out how we're fair game we got to figure out how we're gonna you know move on from here I was gonna you know move on from here I was gonna you know move on from here I was like well we really we have to start like well we really we have to start like well we really we have to start over again we've got to find a new way over again we've got to find a new way over again we've got to find a new way it's not we're not going to find because it's not we're not going to find because it's not we're not going to find because we had so customized the role to her we had so customized the role to her we had so customized the role to her which was a win you know that was a I which was a win you know that was a I which was a win you know that was a I think as a positive thing for her and think as a positive thing for her and think as a positive thing for her and she ended up thriving and it asked us to she ended up thriving and it asked us to she ended up thriving and it asked us to go back to some of those fundamentals go back to some of those fundamentals go back to some of those fundamentals again and say what do we actually need again and say what do we actually need again and say what do we actually need you know in this yeah and I think I tell you know in this yeah and I think I tell you know in this yeah and I think I tell you it is a difficult process to do this you it is a difficult process to do this you it is a difficult process to do this because you're talking about people that because you're talking about people that because you're talking about people that you love holding that you care about you love holding that you care about you love holding that you care about people that have contributed to your people that have contributed to your people that have contributed to your ministry and I will say this we we ministry and I will say this we we ministry and I will say this we we didn't go about it with you know a didn't go about it with you know a didn't go about it with you know a hatchet I mean we didn't come with a hatchet I mean we didn't come with a hatchet I mean we didn't come with a chainsaw and just start cutting people chainsaw and just start cutting people chainsaw and just start cutting people out and moving on and things like that I out and moving on and things like that I out and moving on and things like that I think really before you start in think really before you start in think really before you start in this process you really have to examine this process you really have to examine this process you really have to examine your values both personally and your values both personally and your values both personally and corporately and really have this value corporately and really have this value corporately and really have this value set in mind that these are people that set in mind that these are people that set in mind that these are people that God dearly loves and that God has a plan God dearly loves and that God has a plan God dearly loves and that God has a plan for and that God has intended their life for and that God has intended their life for and that God has intended their life to thrive in some particular area and

to thrive in some particular area and to thrive in some particular area and you don't have the right as a church you don't have the right as a church you don't have the right as a church leader to mess that up you're you're leader to mess that up you're you're leader to mess that up you're you're dealing or something holy when you're dealing or something holy when you're dealing or something holy when you're dealing with a person and if they're in dealing with a person and if they're in dealing with a person and if they're in the wrong spot and if they're in a place the wrong spot and if they're in a place the wrong spot and if they're in a place where they're not thriving you have a where they're not thriving you have a where they're not thriving you have a responsibility if there's if their place responsibility if there's if their place responsibility if there's if their place of thriving is somewhere beyond your of thriving is somewhere beyond your of thriving is somewhere beyond your church to help them with that process church to help them with that process church to help them with that process but that can't be some kind of but that can't be some kind of but that can't be some kind of tongue-in-cheek euphemism for we just tongue-in-cheek euphemism for we just tongue-in-cheek euphemism for we just want to get rid of that dude right want to get rid of that dude right want to get rid of that dude right really I really believe that is the really I really believe that is the really I really believe that is the church we have to treat people with the church we have to treat people with the church we have to treat people with the same value in honor that God does and same value in honor that God does and same value in honor that God does and their calling and and if they're if their calling and and if they're if their calling and and if they're if they're right path is for them to they're right path is for them to they're right path is for them to transition outside of your church to to transition outside of your church to to transition outside of your church to to give enough time for that to happen give enough time for that to happen give enough time for that to happen arguably we we have probably given too arguably we we have probably given too arguably we we have probably given too much time sometimes for that process to much time sometimes for that process to much time sometimes for that process to happen there are those inside who have happen there are those inside who have happen there are those inside who have transitioned out who said we didn't give transitioned out who said we didn't give transitioned out who said we didn't give enough time I mean we didn't always get enough time I mean we didn't always get enough time I mean we didn't always get it right I got just we did not always it right I got just we did not always it right I got just we did not always get that right but but to make sure that get that right but but to make sure that get that right but but to make sure that that that kind of heart is in the that that kind of heart is in the that that kind of heart is in the process of those kind of conversations process of those kind of conversations process of those kind of conversations could you kind of pull that apart a could you kind of pull that apart a could you kind of pull that apart a little bit for us walk us through little bit for us walk us through little bit for us walk us through doesn't need to be an individual person doesn't need to be an individual person doesn't need to be an individual person but kind of the structure let's say you but kind of the structure let's say you but kind of the structure let's say you come to the point where you're like hey come to the point where you're like hey come to the point where you're like hey we really we've made the decision we we really we've made the decision we we really we've made the decision we need to move this person on we think need to move this person on we think need to move this person on we think they we need to help them find in their they we need to help them find in their they we need to help them find in their next place and it's not with our church next place and it's not with our church next place and it's not with our church what did that look like what did the how what did that look like what did the how what did that look like what did the how did that go down what was that did that go down what was that did that go down what was that communication process like what did you

communication process like what did you communication process like what did you learn through that process yeah well learn through that process yeah well learn through that process yeah well first of all I think it starts back first of all I think it starts back first of all I think it starts back before that beginning to identify that before that beginning to identify that before that beginning to identify that and i will say that most of the time and i will say that most of the time and i will say that most of the time that that process begins with that that process begins with that that process begins with frustration right that you begin to see frustration right that you begin to see frustration right that you begin to see frustration develop either in that frustration develop either in that frustration develop either in that person or in their team are probably person or in their team are probably person or in their team are probably both is really when it shows up and you both is really when it shows up and you both is really when it shows up and you know what we try to do oftentimes as we know what we try to do oftentimes as we know what we try to do oftentimes as we try to smooth out try to smooth out try to smooth out that frustration let's adjust let's that frustration let's adjust let's that frustration let's adjust let's tweak let's fix the job description like tweak let's fix the job description like tweak let's fix the job description like will rearrange a process of the team will rearrange a process of the team will rearrange a process of the team whatever but sometimes I think you've whatever but sometimes I think you've whatever but sometimes I think you've got to have a have a sensor somewhere got to have a have a sensor somewhere got to have a have a sensor somewhere along the way that goes if there's along the way that goes if there's along the way that goes if there's frustration there there's probably a frustration there there's probably a frustration there there's probably a reason let's dig in and find out what reason let's dig in and find out what reason let's dig in and find out what that is right and then when you get to that is right and then when you get to that is right and then when you get to the point of saying this frustration the point of saying this frustration the point of saying this frustration seems to mean that this person is really seems to mean that this person is really seems to mean that this person is really in the wrong seat or they're doing the in the wrong seat or they're doing the in the wrong seat or they're doing the wrong thing or God has grown them and wrong thing or God has grown them and wrong thing or God has grown them and they're they're moving on to something they're they're moving on to something they're they're moving on to something else honestly the first part of that is else honestly the first part of that is else honestly the first part of that is sitting down and just having an honest sitting down and just having an honest sitting down and just having an honest conversation about that issue and just conversation about that issue and just conversation about that issue and just being willing to say to a person have being willing to say to a person have being willing to say to a person have you considered because I've considered you considered because I've considered you considered because I've considered that this frustration that you're that this frustration that you're that this frustration that you're experiencing is because that God is experiencing is because that God is experiencing is because that God is beginning to move you on to your next beginning to move you on to your next beginning to move you on to your next place of ministry and just starting place of ministry and just starting place of ministry and just starting having an honest conversation with that having an honest conversation with that having an honest conversation with that person about it what I try to say in person about it what I try to say in person about it what I try to say in that conversation is I don't have a date that conversation is I don't have a date that conversation is I don't have a date in mind i don't have a timeline in mind in mind i don't have a timeline in mind in mind i don't have a timeline in mind I i have a question that i don't know I i have a question that i don't know I i have a question that i don't know the answer to but let's go find the the answer to but let's go find the the answer to but let's go find the answer together and then begin what i do answer together and then begin what i do answer together and then begin what i do is try to set up a series of just is try to set up a series of just is try to set up a series of just consistent meetings with that person consistent meetings with that person consistent meetings with that person over over time to get to help them walk

over over time to get to help them walk over over time to get to help them walk to the place of seeing what we're seeing to the place of seeing what we're seeing to the place of seeing what we're seeing and then from that point to it's and then from that point to it's and then from that point to it's somewhere along that process to set a somewhere along that process to set a somewhere along that process to set a date and say let's make this a target date and say let's make this a target date and say let's make this a target date for you transitioning to a next date for you transitioning to a next date for you transitioning to a next thing and then even from that point what thing and then even from that point what thing and then even from that point what I'll do and you know if I if I can if I'll do and you know if I if I can if I'll do and you know if I if I can if I'm enough connected to that situation I'm enough connected to that situation I'm enough connected to that situation and I try to be connected to those as and I try to be connected to those as and I try to be connected to those as much as I can even from this we have to much as I can even from this we have to much as I can even from this we have to give a context we have about 70 people give a context we have about 70 people give a context we have about 70 people are so on staff but I still want to be are so on staff but I still want to be are so on staff but I still want to be connected to those as much as I can connected to those as much as I can connected to those as much as I can right to help that person walk through right to help that person walk through right to help that person walk through the personal part of that process of the personal part of that process of the personal part of that process of what is it that God is doing in this what is it that God is doing in this what is it that God is doing in this person's life and what and try to help person's life and what and try to help person's life and what and try to help them understand what that might mean for them understand what that might mean for them understand what that might mean for future ministry rolls then down in the future ministry rolls then down in the future ministry rolls then down in the organization help their ministry leaders organization help their ministry leaders organization help their ministry leaders to identify what is the new role to identify what is the new role to identify what is the new role specifically that is that this person is specifically that is that this person is specifically that is that this person is kind of separating from and so to use it kind of separating from and so to use it kind of separating from and so to use it as an opportunity to really get clear as an opportunity to really get clear as an opportunity to really get clear about what the role is becoming that's about what the role is becoming that's about what the role is becoming that's causing the frustration why this person causing the frustration why this person causing the frustration why this person isn't a fit isn't a fit isn't a fit more because eventually you're gonna more because eventually you're gonna more because eventually you're gonna have to rehire that role right but more have to rehire that role right but more have to rehire that role right but more clarity you can get about what that new clarity you can get about what that new clarity you can get about what that new role is will help you when you go to role is will help you when you go to role is will help you when you go to rehire the next time so I think those rehire the next time so I think those rehire the next time so I think those things kind of happen at the same time things kind of happen at the same time things kind of happen at the same time and then as we get down to it you know and then as we get down to it you know and then as we get down to it you know we try to do a couple things in the we try to do a couple things in the we try to do a couple things in the communication cycle allow that person communication cycle allow that person communication cycle allow that person who's transitioning the first of all who's transitioning the first of all who's transitioning the first of all communicate with their personal inner communicate with their personal inner communicate with their personal inner circle so they may have friends in the

circle so they may have friends in the circle so they may have friends in the ministry you know people Vogler ministry you know people Vogler ministry you know people Vogler volunteers that are closest to them volunteers that are closest to them volunteers that are closest to them people who would want to hear from them people who would want to hear from them people who would want to hear from them personally about that we give them a personally about that we give them a personally about that we give them a period of time to talk to those people period of time to talk to those people period of time to talk to those people personally and tell that story and then personally and tell that story and then personally and tell that story and then they talk to their ministry team tho they talk to their ministry team tho they talk to their ministry team tho those your ministry team after that and those your ministry team after that and those your ministry team after that and then then to our staff and then when then then to our staff and then when then then to our staff and then when appropriate to the larger minister to appropriate to the larger minister to appropriate to the larger minister to the church to the church at large and the church to the church at large and the church to the church at large and are you again I think your don't miss are you again I think your don't miss are you again I think your don't miss that church leaders there's a cascading that church leaders there's a cascading that church leaders there's a cascading of information and and people get hurt of information and and people get hurt of information and and people get hurt if you don't cascade that information if you don't cascade that information if you don't cascade that information correctly and you've got to think correctly and you've got to think correctly and you've got to think through that well and articulate that through that well and articulate that through that well and articulate that should make sure everybody's you know should make sure everybody's you know should make sure everybody's you know aware of what that process looks like aware of what that process looks like aware of what that process looks like I'm assuming um you know just to tease I'm assuming um you know just to tease I'm assuming um you know just to tease out one thing you said there in that out one thing you said there in that out one thing you said there in that situation where that ultimately you're situation where that ultimately you're situation where that ultimately you're kind of making a public announcement kind of making a public announcement kind of making a public announcement you're talking about it publicly that you're talking about it publicly that you're talking about it publicly that always kind of matches the level at always kind of matches the level at always kind of matches the level at which this person you know has influence which this person you know has influence which this person you know has influence in the organization so there isn't in in the organization so there isn't in in the organization so there isn't in the you know in the bulletin on a Sunday the you know in the bulletin on a Sunday the you know in the bulletin on a Sunday morning you know here's the list of morning you know here's the list of morning you know here's the list of people who transition to this week you people who transition to this week you people who transition to this week you know because a bunch of those people know because a bunch of those people know because a bunch of those people they're not known by you know the vast they're not known by you know the vast they're not known by you know the vast majority of staff so it would be kind of majority of staff so it would be kind of majority of staff so it would be kind of by Minister area is that is that kind of by Minister area is that is that kind of by Minister area is that is that kind of the general principle that you followed the general principle that you followed the general principle that you followed yeah you know I mean the announcement yeah you know I mean the announcement yeah you know I mean the announcement ought to be as public as the person was ought to be as public as the person was ought to be as public as the person was yet essentially I think that's kind of a yet essentially I think that's kind of a yet essentially I think that's kind of a general rule of thumb and yeah it's just general rule of thumb and yeah it's just general rule of thumb and yeah it's just a lot of sensitivity about about that a lot of sensitivity about about that a lot of sensitivity about about that and you know both what the church needs and you know both what the church needs and you know both what the church needs and what that person would want and you and what that person would want and you and what that person would want and you know kind of putting all that together know kind of putting all that together know kind of putting all that together somehow again I don't think there's like

somehow again I don't think there's like somehow again I don't think there's like a hard and fast rule on it because we a hard and fast rule on it because we a hard and fast rule on it because we had some guys around here that weren't had some guys around here that weren't had some guys around here that weren't quite as public but they had been around quite as public but they had been around quite as public but they had been around for so long right you know so many for so long right you know so many for so long right you know so many people knew who they were and it was people knew who they were and it was people knew who they were and it was just honoring for us to say hey this you just honoring for us to say hey this you just honoring for us to say hey this you know these people are moving to their know these people are moving to their know these people are moving to their next thing and we can celebrate that and next thing and we can celebrate that and next thing and we can celebrate that and pray pray pray forum and and all that you know forum and and all that you know forum and and all that you know absolutely so now let's talk about kind absolutely so now let's talk about kind absolutely so now let's talk about kind of you know roll the clock forward so of you know roll the clock forward so of you know roll the clock forward so obviously you know you've gone through a obviously you know you've gone through a obviously you know you've gone through a bunch of staff structure changes bunch of staff structure changes bunch of staff structure changes transitions re-engineered the structures transitions re-engineered the structures transitions re-engineered the structures you know how has that impacted where the you know how has that impacted where the you know how has that impacted where the church is at today what difference has church is at today what difference has church is at today what difference has that made yeah well you know again that made yeah well you know again that made yeah well you know again you're talking about that life cycle you you're talking about that life cycle you you're talking about that life cycle you know that kind of acts like a bell curve know that kind of acts like a bell curve know that kind of acts like a bell curve right and you want to catch it is it's right and you want to catch it is it's right and you want to catch it is it's kind of cresting and start a new curve kind of cresting and start a new curve kind of cresting and start a new curve well we we have really done it with that well we we have really done it with that well we we have really done it with that in mind of thinking what kind of leaders in mind of thinking what kind of leaders in mind of thinking what kind of leaders do we need to begin the new curve right do we need to begin the new curve right do we need to begin the new curve right and you know a couple of things have and you know a couple of things have and you know a couple of things have happened you know I have been around happened you know I have been around happened you know I have been around here for almost 16 years now so I was a here for almost 16 years now so I was a here for almost 16 years now so I was a part of the first slope you know and part of the first slope you know and part of the first slope you know and what I started realizing was I was not what I started realizing was I was not what I started realizing was I was not going to be the guy who invented the going to be the guy who invented the going to be the guy who invented the next one and it's it's not because I'm next one and it's it's not because I'm next one and it's it's not because I'm stupid well it might it might be it stupid well it might it might be it stupid well it might it might be it might be good but but it's because I see might be good but but it's because I see might be good but but it's because I see through the lens of where we get been through the lens of where we get been through the lens of where we get been right well what my role becomes now is I right well what my role becomes now is I right well what my role becomes now is I need to start asking questions that I need to start asking questions that I need to start asking questions that I don't know the answer to and then

don't know the answer to and then don't know the answer to and then finding the people who have those finding the people who have those finding the people who have those answers and I think there is in looking answers and I think there is in looking answers and I think there is in looking for for the next wave of staff people for for the next wave of staff people for for the next wave of staff people who are going to create that next that who are going to create that next that who are going to create that next that that next part of the curve can I go and that next part of the curve can I go and that next part of the curve can I go and find people who have answers that I have find people who have answers that I have find people who have answers that I have never thought of right and am I willing never thought of right and am I willing never thought of right and am I willing to let go enough to trust them to bring to let go enough to trust them to bring to let go enough to trust them to bring those answers to us and actually reshape those answers to us and actually reshape those answers to us and actually reshape the the kind of ministry that we are I the the kind of ministry that we are I the the kind of ministry that we are I think before you start bringing anybody think before you start bringing anybody think before you start bringing anybody in you got to ask that question am I in you got to ask that question am I in you got to ask that question am I willing to let somebody else fill in the willing to let somebody else fill in the willing to let somebody else fill in the blanks that I used to fill in am I blanks that I used to fill in am I blanks that I used to fill in am I willing to let somebody else be the willing to let somebody else be the willing to let somebody else be the filter that I used to be the filter of I filter that I used to be the filter of I filter that I used to be the filter of I used to be the expert but now I got to used to be the expert but now I got to used to be the expert but now I got to become the leader and those are two become the leader and those are two become the leader and those are two vastly different roles in ministry in vastly different roles in ministry in vastly different roles in ministry in it's a hard thing I think to let go of it's a hard thing I think to let go of it's a hard thing I think to let go of especially if you've been around a long especially if you've been around a long especially if you've been around a long time and have been that expert before time and have been that expert before time and have been that expert before everybody looked to you for the cool new everybody looked to you for the cool new everybody looked to you for the cool new you know ministry shaper you know ministry shaper you know ministry shaper that that's going to affect you know that that's going to affect you know that that's going to affect you know what this church becomes wow it's that what this church becomes wow it's that what this church becomes wow it's that day well I hope people are leaning in day well I hope people are leaning in day well I hope people are leaning in and hearing that Mitch I appreciate you and hearing that Mitch I appreciate you and hearing that Mitch I appreciate you leading with humility and to say that leading with humility and to say that leading with humility and to say that because I think there are a lot of because I think there are a lot of because I think there are a lot of leaders who don't get to that spot who leaders who don't get to that spot who leaders who don't get to that spot who never pushed through the eye they always never pushed through the eye they always never pushed through the eye they always have to be the person answering every have to be the person answering every have to be the person answering every question they always have to be the question they always have to be the question they always have to be the expert they always have to be the one expert they always have to be the one expert they always have to be the one that all the roads lead to but I think that all the roads lead to but I think that all the roads lead to but I think there is great growth and potential on there is great growth and potential on there is great growth and potential on the other side of saying hey I want to

the other side of saying hey I want to the other side of saying hey I want to have open hands and be the person that have open hands and be the person that have open hands and be the person that that brokers all kinds of great you know that brokers all kinds of great you know that brokers all kinds of great you know things that are happening that are like things that are happening that are like things that are happening that are like you say answering questions I'm not even you say answering questions I'm not even you say answering questions I'm not even asking that's that's amazing that's it asking that's that's amazing that's it asking that's that's amazing that's it what would be an area as an example in what would be an area as an example in what would be an area as an example in area where you'd say hey this is an area area where you'd say hey this is an area area where you'd say hey this is an area where i felt like i was the expert but where i felt like i was the expert but where i felt like i was the expert but now my jobs just to lead give me a sense now my jobs just to lead give me a sense now my jobs just to lead give me a sense of what that's looked like for you yeah of what that's looked like for you yeah of what that's looked like for you yeah well it's but i went through that is well it's but i went through that is well it's but i went through that is exactly when i first came here I was in exactly when i first came here I was in exactly when i first came here I was in the in the worship arts area the church the in the worship arts area the church the in the worship arts area the church I was at before here I was a worship I was at before here I was a worship I was at before here I was a worship leader eight years you know and I was leader eight years you know and I was leader eight years you know and I was one of the guys you know stood up there one of the guys you know stood up there one of the guys you know stood up there and played keys and was cool and and played keys and was cool and and played keys and was cool and everybody thought man who what's this everybody thought man who what's this everybody thought man who what's this new music we're doing in the church to new music we're doing in the church to new music we're doing in the church to your skinny jeans you had the cool hat your skinny jeans you had the cool hat your skinny jeans you had the cool hat hair just kidding yeah that's what I did hair just kidding yeah that's what I did hair just kidding yeah that's what I did back then not but I mean it was kind of back then not but I mean it was kind of back then not but I mean it was kind of it was until the 90s equivalent of that it was until the 90s equivalent of that it was until the 90s equivalent of that absolutely totally enough I was that guy absolutely totally enough I was that guy absolutely totally enough I was that guy and then all of a sudden you wake up one and then all of a sudden you wake up one and then all of a sudden you wake up one day and you go wait a minute I'm not day and you go wait a minute I'm not day and you go wait a minute I'm not that guy anymore you know so I kind of that guy anymore you know so I kind of that guy anymore you know so I kind of went through this identity crisis of who went through this identity crisis of who went through this identity crisis of who am i if I'm not the worship arts guru am i if I'm not the worship arts guru am i if I'm not the worship arts guru guy for our church you know the guy for our church you know the guy for our church you know the programming you know creative guy for programming you know creative guy for programming you know creative guy for our church and you know it's I mean it's our church and you know it's I mean it's our church and you know it's I mean it's like Anna you kind of goes a little bit like Anna you kind of goes a little bit like Anna you kind of goes a little bit of an identity crisis to having to let of an identity crisis to having to let of an identity crisis to having to let that go a little bit and go what is my that go a little bit and go what is my that go a little bit and go what is my next role then and so when as we were next role then and so when as we were next role then and so when as we were starting to make this transition I had starting to make this transition I had starting to make this transition I had stepped a little bit up in terms of a stepped a little bit up in terms of a stepped a little bit up in terms of a kind of overall executive kind of roll kind of overall executive kind of roll kind of overall executive kind of roll another guy and I shared shared the roll

another guy and I shared shared the roll another guy and I shared shared the roll together but I was still really heavily together but I was still really heavily together but I was still really heavily involved in the worship arts Minister involved in the worship arts Minister involved in the worship arts Minister and we started we we hired a couple guys and we started we we hired a couple guys and we started we we hired a couple guys in one of them came in and just had in one of them came in and just had in one of them came in and just had a lot of what this was my perspective it a lot of what this was my perspective it a lot of what this was my perspective it was a lot of just negative stuff to say was a lot of just negative stuff to say was a lot of just negative stuff to say about what was going on in our worship about what was going on in our worship about what was going on in our worship services wow this guy that we hired on services wow this guy that we hired on services wow this guy that we hired on staff and we'd hired him for a staff and we'd hired him for a staff and we'd hired him for a particular expertise in another area but particular expertise in another area but particular expertise in another area but as he was looking into our worship she as he was looking into our worship she as he was looking into our worship she was gone did you guys were you guys are was gone did you guys were you guys are was gone did you guys were you guys are living in the past you know right stuff living in the past you know right stuff living in the past you know right stuff you're coming up with his not connecting you're coming up with his not connecting you're coming up with his not connecting with people right well what he would say with people right well what he would say with people right well what he would say what I heard was Mitch the stuff that what I heard was Mitch the stuff that what I heard was Mitch the stuff that you're coming up with is not connected you're coming up with is not connected you're coming up with is not connected with the stuff that you and and here's with the stuff that you and and here's with the stuff that you and and here's the sad part about it he was exactly the sad part about it he was exactly the sad part about it he was exactly right oh wow yes I mean dude he like I right oh wow yes I mean dude he like I right oh wow yes I mean dude he like I had no defense right he was he was right had no defense right he was he was right had no defense right he was he was right yes and you find yourself in this place yes and you find yourself in this place yes and you find yourself in this place is going I i can either defend myself or is going I i can either defend myself or is going I i can either defend myself or i can let the church move on but i i can let the church move on but i i can let the church move on but i thought i can't i can't do both right if thought i can't i can't do both right if thought i can't i can't do both right if I defend myself here and defend what I defend myself here and defend what I defend myself here and defend what we're doing the church will never get to we're doing the church will never get to we're doing the church will never get to what it needs duck yeah and so we at what it needs duck yeah and so we at what it needs duck yeah and so we at that point some other changes that that point some other changes that that point some other changes that happened and I we started reorganizing happened and I we started reorganizing happened and I we started reorganizing the the organization again and I came the the organization again and I came the the organization again and I came into this loan executive pastor role at into this loan executive pastor role at into this loan executive pastor role at our church and started realizing that I our church and started realizing that I our church and started realizing that I just got to get over that and I gotta just got to get over that and I gotta just got to get over that and I gotta let these new thinkers reshape our

let these new thinkers reshape our let these new thinkers reshape our ministry and then we began a process of ministry and then we began a process of ministry and then we began a process of hiring the guy in behind me and um you hiring the guy in behind me and um you hiring the guy in behind me and um you know eventually he brought in a guy who know eventually he brought in a guy who know eventually he brought in a guy who was a young guy looks like you know like was a young guy looks like you know like was a young guy looks like you know like that you know thinks of things and does that you know thinks of things and does that you know thinks of things and does things in ways that I would never have things in ways that I would never have things in ways that I would never have thought of to do but one of the great at thought of to do but one of the great at thought of to do but one of the great at what I have found is and I think this is what I have found is and I think this is what I have found is and I think this is you know maybe the mercy of God you know you know maybe the mercy of God you know you know maybe the mercy of God you know in it is what I have found is one of my in it is what I have found is one of my in it is what I have found is one of my greatest joys now and honestly probably greatest joys now and honestly probably greatest joys now and honestly probably the most fulfilling part of my ministry the most fulfilling part of my ministry the most fulfilling part of my ministry these days is watching these guys just these days is watching these guys just these days is watching these guys just run and just do it and reshape the run and just do it and reshape the run and just do it and reshape the church and watch our church respond to church and watch our church respond to church and watch our church respond to that and do things that we'd never that and do things that we'd never that and do things that we'd never thought of before I mean they're not thought of before I mean they're not thought of before I mean they're not even crazy things are just in ways we even crazy things are just in ways we even crazy things are just in ways we never thought about for but connecting never thought about for but connecting never thought about for but connecting with with with you know again and it's awesome very you know again and it's awesome very you know again and it's awesome very cool is there anything else you want to cool is there anything else you want to cool is there anything else you want to share before we pivot into the rest of share before we pivot into the rest of share before we pivot into the rest of the episode this has been a great the episode this has been a great the episode this has been a great conversation today oh thanks man um yeah conversation today oh thanks man um yeah conversation today oh thanks man um yeah I you know I would just say if you're I you know I would just say if you're I you know I would just say if you're going to launch into this kind of thing going to launch into this kind of thing going to launch into this kind of thing that that thing of really holding the that that thing of really holding the that that thing of really holding the ministry loosely and in hiring guys who ministry loosely and in hiring guys who ministry loosely and in hiring guys who are going to be able to take a step up are going to be able to take a step up are going to be able to take a step up and I guess what i mean by that is what and I guess what i mean by that is what and I guess what i mean by that is what i realize is I you know I don't think i realize is I you know I don't think i realize is I you know I don't think I'm that all of a guy but I'm 51 years I'm that all of a guy but I'm 51 years I'm that all of a guy but I'm 51 years old right um the guys that we have hired old right um the guys that we have hired old right um the guys that we have hired in to kind of come help us reshape our

in to kind of come help us reshape our in to kind of come help us reshape our church some of them are 15 years behind church some of them are 15 years behind church some of them are 15 years behind me right and they one day are going to me right and they one day are going to me right and they one day are going to step up and be me right so they're gonna step up and be me right so they're gonna step up and be me right so they're gonna have to have leadership capacity and not have to have leadership capacity and not have to have leadership capacity and not just to do what they're doing today but just to do what they're doing today but just to do what they're doing today but to one day think about doing what what to one day think about doing what what to one day think about doing what what I'm doing yeah which which is asking I'm doing yeah which which is asking I'm doing yeah which which is asking questions that nobody knows the answer questions that nobody knows the answer questions that nobody knows the answer to and hiring in the next group behind to and hiring in the next group behind to and hiring in the next group behind them someday down the road I mean it's them someday down the road I mean it's them someday down the road I mean it's coming for all of us excellent and so I coming for all of us excellent and so I coming for all of us excellent and so I think you know looking for guys who have think you know looking for guys who have think you know looking for guys who have the potential not just to do what the potential not just to do what the potential not just to do what they're doing today but also have the they're doing today but also have the they're doing today but also have the potential to step up and use that as a potential to step up and use that as a potential to step up and use that as a criteria for hiring it's a big deal the criteria for hiring it's a big deal the criteria for hiring it's a big deal the other thing I would say in this too is other thing I would say in this too is other thing I would say in this too is as you go about hiring a new role it is as you go about hiring a new role it is as you go about hiring a new role it is I cannot overstate how critical it is to I cannot overstate how critical it is to I cannot overstate how critical it is to get super clear about what you want that get super clear about what you want that get super clear about what you want that person to do what is what are the person to do what is what are the person to do what is what are the outcomes that you want to see from those outcomes that you want to see from those outcomes that you want to see from those new hires for instance overseeing the new hires for instance overseeing the new hires for instance overseeing the worship ministry is not an outcome worship ministry is not an outcome worship ministry is not an outcome that's an activity right you know I mean that's an activity right you know I mean that's an activity right you know I mean no offense but my mom can oversee and no offense but my mom can oversee and no offense but my mom can oversee and then respect yes yes like but what but then respect yes yes like but what but then respect yes yes like but what but I'm not I'm not laying awake at night I'm not I'm not laying awake at night I'm not I'm not laying awake at night you know staring at the ceiling all you know staring at the ceiling all you know staring at the ceiling all frantic because somebody is overseeing frantic because somebody is overseeing frantic because somebody is overseeing the ministry I'm laying awake at night the ministry I'm laying awake at night the ministry I'm laying awake at night because they're not producing certain because they're not producing certain because they're not producing certain outcomes right you know oversee the band outcomes right you know oversee the band outcomes right you know oversee the band while he is the band's got three people while he is the band's got three people while he is the band's got three people in it and they're always scrambling for in it and they're always scrambling for in it and they're always scrambling for more you know yes how many you know how

more you know yes how many you know how more you know yes how many you know how many people do you want involved how many people do you want involved how many people do you want involved how many many many that guy engage quantify it and that guy engage quantify it and that guy engage quantify it and get clear about the expectations for get clear about the expectations for get clear about the expectations for each of those roles and then the other each of those roles and then the other each of those roles and then the other part of it I would say is once you get part of it I would say is once you get part of it I would say is once you get clear about those expectations of the clear about those expectations of the clear about those expectations of the role and then you start finding people role and then you start finding people role and then you start finding people to you can fill those expectations you to you can fill those expectations you to you can fill those expectations you got to ask the question how deeply do I got to ask the question how deeply do I got to ask the question how deeply do I trust this person to do i really trust trust this person to do i really trust trust this person to do i really trust this person enough to hand something off this person enough to hand something off this person enough to hand something off to them and let them go and not have to to them and let them go and not have to to them and let them go and not have to lay awake in bed at night worrying about lay awake in bed at night worrying about lay awake in bed at night worrying about what they're doing absolutely you know what they're doing absolutely you know what they're doing absolutely you know the whole difference between activity the whole difference between activity the whole difference between activity and results is a huge deal and I think a and results is a huge deal and I think a and results is a huge deal and I think a lot of church leaders get they get that lot of church leaders get they get that lot of church leaders get they get that mixed up mixed up in their head you know mixed up mixed up in their head you know mixed up mixed up in their head you know when I asked you know when they're when I asked you know when they're when I asked you know when they're talking about what's happening in their talking about what's happening in their talking about what's happening in their ministry they're talking about all the ministry they're talking about all the ministry they're talking about all the activity they're doing they're not activity they're doing they're not activity they're doing they're not defined they're not talking about the defined they're not talking about the defined they're not talking about the results that all that activity is having results that all that activity is having results that all that activity is having it the fact that you're busy isn't it it the fact that you're busy isn't it it the fact that you're busy isn't it doesn't matter the question is you know doesn't matter the question is you know doesn't matter the question is you know our is all of that work is it generating our is all of that work is it generating our is all of that work is it generating outcomes in people's lives that you know outcomes in people's lives that you know outcomes in people's lives that you know that you can actually say yeah here is that you can actually say yeah here is that you can actually say yeah here is what's happened you know for sure no I what's happened you know for sure no I what's happened you know for sure no I appreciate that yeah well the thing is appreciate that yeah well the thing is appreciate that yeah well the thing is once you do that you can free the guy to once you do that you can free the guy to once you do that you can free the guy to go after those outcomes yeah and you go after those outcomes yeah and you go after those outcomes yeah and you aren't micromanaging how he goes after aren't micromanaging how he goes after aren't micromanaging how he goes after him you're not filling in those blanks him you're not filling in those blanks him you're not filling in those blanks right but that you're you're pointing right but that you're you're pointing right but that you're you're pointing him in the direction of a target and him in the direction of a target and him in the direction of a target and then they you just go go go get that you then they you just go go go get that you then they you just go go go get that you know and they can they can be inventive know and they can they can be inventive know and they can they can be inventive and innovative and all the stuff they and innovative and all the stuff they and innovative and all the stuff they want to do to get there this is the

want to do to get there this is the want to do to get there this is the uncen airy podcast stuff you wish they uncen airy podcast stuff you wish they uncen airy podcast stuff you wish they taught at seminary we're going to jump taught at seminary we're going to jump taught at seminary we're going to jump into the lightning round that part of into the lightning round that part of into the lightning round that part of the episode we asked similar questions the episode we asked similar questions the episode we asked similar questions of everybody that's on the show super of everybody that's on the show super of everybody that's on the show super privileged to have Mitch Harrison with privileged to have Mitch Harrison with privileged to have Mitch Harrison with us today from canyon ridge christian us today from canyon ridge christian us today from canyon ridge christian church in vegas what a great church in vegas what a great church in vegas what a great conversation this has been today I conversation this has been today I conversation this has been today I really appreciate you being on the show really appreciate you being on the show really appreciate you being on the show what's an online resource you're using what's an online resource you're using what's an online resource you're using these days something that's helping you these days something that's helping you these days something that's helping you out in your ministry yeah for me I spent out in your ministry yeah for me I spent out in your ministry yeah for me I spent a lot of time creating meeting agendas a lot of time creating meeting agendas a lot of time creating meeting agendas and I got to be overwhelming for a while and I got to be overwhelming for a while and I got to be overwhelming for a while and I found I was looking for some kind and I found I was looking for some kind and I found I was looking for some kind of software that would help me organize of software that would help me organize of software that would help me organize all those little things they have to go all those little things they have to go all those little things they have to go on agenda somewhere into that i found on agenda somewhere into that i found on agenda somewhere into that i found this program called a pulse okay a EUL this program called a pulse okay a EUL this program called a pulse okay a EUL SE and its really off the beaten path SE and its really off the beaten path SE and its really off the beaten path I've never heard of it before it's I've never heard of it before it's I've never heard of it before it's actually I think an Israeli companies actually I think an Israeli companies actually I think an Israeli companies and Israeli guys have put this together and Israeli guys have put this together and Israeli guys have put this together it's just a basic project management it's just a basic project management it's just a basic project management software so that manages very simple software so that manages very simple software so that manages very simple things but what I've used it for is things but what I've used it for is things but what I've used it for is managing agenda items and keeping all managing agenda items and keeping all managing agenda items and keeping all that those tasks list and agendas for that those tasks list and agendas for that those tasks list and agendas for different meetings straight you know different meetings straight you know different meetings straight you know over the course of probably like most over the course of probably like most over the course of probably like most guys you know over the course of any guys you know over the course of any guys you know over the course of any given month man I've got six or seven given month man I've got six or seven given month man I've got six or seven meetings that are happening on a regular meetings that are happening on a regular meetings that are happening on a regular basis including one the ones with my basis including one the ones with my basis including one the ones with my team you know lead team meetings elders team you know lead team meetings elders team you know lead team meetings elders meetings ops team meetings I mean meetings ops team meetings I mean meetings ops team meetings I mean there's name it right and what thing there's name it right and what thing there's name it right and what thing needs to go on what date and you can use needs to go on what date and you can use needs to go on what date and you can use this program to help organize all that this program to help organize all that this program to help organize all that stuff and so it's gonna help to me to do stuff and so it's gonna help to me to do stuff and so it's gonna help to me to do that very cool what's a book you've read

that very cool what's a book you've read that very cool what's a book you've read in the last I don't know maybe six in the last I don't know maybe six in the last I don't know maybe six months to a year that's shaped your months to a year that's shaped your months to a year that's shaped your thinking or ministry um yeah you know we thinking or ministry um yeah you know we thinking or ministry um yeah you know we picked up Kari new laughs book God picked up Kari new laughs book God picked up Kari new laughs book God dreams and i was working through some of dreams and i was working through some of dreams and i was working through some of the vision stuff for our church and it's the vision stuff for our church and it's the vision stuff for our church and it's kind of one of the places we are really kind of one of the places we are really kind of one of the places we are really doing a real clear refresh of our vision doing a real clear refresh of our vision doing a real clear refresh of our vision that's been helpful the as a lens kind that's been helpful the as a lens kind that's been helpful the as a lens kind of a look through there cool very good of a look through there cool very good of a look through there cool very good what's another ministry you're looking what's another ministry you're looking what's another ministry you're looking to that's inspiring you that you kind of to that's inspiring you that you kind of to that's inspiring you that you kind of like wow they're doing some cool stuff like wow they're doing some cool stuff like wow they're doing some cool stuff yeah well you know I'm you know we're yeah well you know I'm you know we're yeah well you know I'm you know we're not like on the cutting edge of finding not like on the cutting edge of finding not like on the cutting edge of finding those of the finders of those you know those of the finders of those you know those of the finders of those you know cool things but I really admire a lot of cool things but I really admire a lot of cool things but I really admire a lot of things at Northpoint church is doing and things at Northpoint church is doing and things at Northpoint church is doing and we send our guys today to the regroup we send our guys today to the regroup we send our guys today to the regroup conference every year and one of the conference every year and one of the conference every year and one of the things that I have appreciated the most things that I have appreciated the most things that I have appreciated the most about what they have done is they have about what they have done is they have about what they have done is they have really done it and I think an incredible really done it and I think an incredible really done it and I think an incredible job of leveraging their teaching content job of leveraging their teaching content job of leveraging their teaching content and using that resource as a way to and using that resource as a way to and using that resource as a way to distribute the gospel through a lot of distribute the gospel through a lot of distribute the gospel through a lot of different channels and you know really different channels and you know really different channels and you know really asking the question how how can we do asking the question how how can we do asking the question how how can we do that same kind of thing I mean we all that same kind of thing I mean we all that same kind of thing I mean we all video our most traditional video their video our most traditional video their video our most traditional video their sermons now in one way or another and sermons now in one way or another and sermons now in one way or another and that's what that teaching content as a that's what that teaching content as a that's what that teaching content as a resource that can be distributed in so resource that can be distributed in so resource that can be distributed in so many different ways and I think they've many different ways and I think they've many different ways and I think they've been a real challenge to us to think been a real challenge to us to think been a real challenge to us to think about how to do that absolutely if you about how to do that absolutely if you about how to do that absolutely if you could get 15 minutes with any leader could get 15 minutes with any leader could get 15 minutes with any leader alive who would you want to get that alive who would you want to get that alive who would you want to get that with with with why uh well these days you know because

why uh well these days you know because why uh well these days you know because of North plant I think you and east and of North plant I think you and east and of North plant I think you and east and there would be one of those guys you there would be one of those guys you there would be one of those guys you know absolutely sure a lot of guys would know absolutely sure a lot of guys would know absolutely sure a lot of guys would say that but sometimes you're all on the say that but sometimes you're all on the say that but sometimes you're all on the Pope yeah well here's why and Pope yeah well here's why and Pope yeah well here's why and specifically right now I'm one of their specifically right now I'm one of their specifically right now I'm one of their podcast I was watching he did a three podcast I was watching he did a three podcast I was watching he did a three week series called tough as nails that I week series called tough as nails that I week series called tough as nails that I just pinned me to the wall when I saw just pinned me to the wall when I saw just pinned me to the wall when I saw the first one I think that series has the first one I think that series has the first one I think that series has probably challenged me more than any probably challenged me more than any probably challenged me more than any other thing as a leader in this way to other thing as a leader in this way to other thing as a leader in this way to think through how courageous a person think through how courageous a person think through how courageous a person and a leader I really am and man was it and a leader I really am and man was it and a leader I really am and man was it convicting and I would recommend every convicting and I would recommend every convicting and I would recommend every church leader watch that and just hold church leader watch that and just hold church leader watch that and just hold yourself and your leadership up against yourself and your leadership up against yourself and your leadership up against that kind of courage and and it's not that kind of courage and and it's not that kind of courage and and it's not really about courage and leadership or really about courage and leadership or really about courage and leadership or anything like that it simply is about anything like that it simply is about anything like that it simply is about looking at our Savior and the kind of looking at our Savior and the kind of looking at our Savior and the kind of person that he was and the kind of person that he was and the kind of person that he was and the kind of courage that he lived with on this earth courage that he lived with on this earth courage that he lived with on this earth and asking herself if I'm following a and asking herself if I'm following a and asking herself if I'm following a savior like that it is my life reflect savior like that it is my life reflect savior like that it is my life reflect that kind of faith and that kind of that kind of faith and that kind of that kind of faith and that kind of courage in the way that I make decisions courage in the way that I make decisions courage in the way that I make decisions in the way that I live and I said hey in the way that I live and I said hey in the way that I live and I said hey you have to listen to the three messages you have to listen to the three messages you have to listen to the three messages and like I said it pinned me to the wall and like I said it pinned me to the wall and like I said it pinned me to the wall and I'm still I still go back and listen and I'm still I still go back and listen and I'm still I still go back and listen to it just to try to get my head around to it just to try to get my head around to it just to try to get my head around it very cool well if you I'm sure you it very cool well if you I'm sure you it very cool well if you I'm sure you know kicking back relaxing you know II know kicking back relaxing you know II know kicking back relaxing you know II all have to do that we have to find

all have to do that we have to find all have to do that we have to find those things in our lives to do that those things in our lives to do that those things in our lives to do that what do you do to just print have fun what do you do to just print have fun what do you do to just print have fun just to relax yeah um I'm into running just to relax yeah um I'm into running just to relax yeah um I'm into running got into running a few years ago and we got into running a few years ago and we got into running a few years ago and we have this really cool Vegas marathon have this really cool Vegas marathon have this really cool Vegas marathon half-marathon that they do right up the half-marathon that they do right up the half-marathon that they do right up the strip ah so it'll hold its the one time strip ah so it'll hold its the one time strip ah so it'll hold its the one time here they close down the entire strip here they close down the entire strip here they close down the entire strip and you can run like a half marathon and you can run like a half marathon and you can run like a half marathon from mandalay bay all the way up into from mandalay bay all the way up into from mandalay bay all the way up into you know downtown fremont street area you know downtown fremont street area you know downtown fremont street area and back again and it's it's really and back again and it's it's really and back again and it's it's really awesome so that's that's a lot of fun awesome so that's that's a lot of fun awesome so that's that's a lot of fun and click off a little bit and hang out and click off a little bit and hang out and click off a little bit and hang out my family and i got teenage kids they're my family and i got teenage kids they're my family and i got teenage kids they're just a total blast to be with right now just a total blast to be with right now just a total blast to be with right now so we do a lot of fun stuff for them so we do a lot of fun stuff for them so we do a lot of fun stuff for them that's cool well Mitch I really that's cool well Mitch I really that's cool well Mitch I really appreciate me on the show too appreciate me on the show too appreciate me on the show too if people want to get in touch with the if people want to get in touch with the if people want to get in touch with the church or with you how can they do that church or with you how can they do that church or with you how can they do that yeah easy way just go to our website yeah easy way just go to our website yeah easy way just go to our website cambridge org my email address is still cambridge org my email address is still cambridge org my email address is still on there simple email addresses on there simple email addresses on there simple email addresses cambridge organ and you know me there um cambridge organ and you know me there um cambridge organ and you know me there um well that's great thanks for being on well that's great thanks for being on well that's great thanks for being on the show today Mitch orage thank you man the show today Mitch orage thank you man the show today Mitch orage thank you man thanks as witness has been a moat around thanks as witness has been a moat around thanks as witness has been a moat around thank you for tuning in to this week's thank you for tuning in to this week's thank you for tuning in to this week's unsung re podcast don't be shy we'd love unsung re podcast don't be shy we'd love unsung re podcast don't be shy we'd love to connect check out uncie maneri inbox to connect check out uncie maneri inbox to connect check out uncie maneri inbox you can sign up at unsummon re calm and you can sign up at unsummon re calm and you can sign up at unsummon re calm and we'll send you helpful training we'll send you helpful training we'll send you helpful training resources every week plus you'll gain resources every week plus you'll gain resources every week plus you'll gain immediate access to our exclusive immediate access to our exclusive immediate access to our exclusive members area with tons of resources you members area with tons of resources you members area with tons of resources you can use connect with rich on twitter add can use connect with rich on twitter add can use connect with rich on twitter add rich birch or through email rich at rich birch or through email rich at rich birch or through email rich at unsummon airy calm don't forget to check unsummon airy calm don't forget to check unsummon airy calm don't forget to check out the show notes for this episode a out the show notes for this episode a out the show notes for this episode a ton seminary calm it includes links to ton seminary calm it includes links to ton seminary calm it includes links to what we talked about today and more what we talked about today and more what we talked about today and more leave a comment we'd love to hear from

leave a comment we'd love to hear from leave a comment we'd love to hear from you did you enjoy today's episode drop you did you enjoy today's episode drop you did you enjoy today's episode drop by itunes and leave a review thanks by itunes and leave a review thanks by itunes and leave a review thanks again for tuning in to this week's again for tuning in to this week's again for tuning in to this week's unsung re podcast join us next week when unsung re podcast join us next week when unsung re podcast join us next week when we'll learn more stuff we wish they we'll learn more stuff we wish they we'll learn more stuff we wish they taught in seminary