William Vanderbloemen on Pastoral Succession That Works.

L ladies and gentlemen welcome to the L ladies and gentlemen welcome to the unseminary podcast are you looking for unseminary podcast are you looking for unseminary podcast are you looking for practical Ministry help to drive your practical Ministry help to drive your practical Ministry help to drive your ministry further faster have a sinking ministry further faster have a sinking ministry further faster have a sinking feeling that your ministry training feeling that your ministry training feeling that your ministry training didn't prepare you for the real world didn't prepare you for the real world didn't prepare you for the real world hey you're not alone join thousands of hey you're not alone join thousands of hey you're not alone join thousands of others in pursuit of stuff that we wish others in pursuit of stuff that we wish others in pursuit of stuff that we wish they had taught in seminary buckle up they had taught in seminary buckle up they had taught in seminary buckle up and let's get started with this week's and let's get started with this week's and let's get started with this week's unseminary unseminary unseminary podcast all right well welcome to the podcast all right well welcome to the podcast all right well welcome to the unseminary podcast my name's Rich the unseminary podcast my name's Rich the unseminary podcast my name's Rich the host around these parts thanks so much host around these parts thanks so much host around these parts thanks so much for tuning in today for giving us a a for tuning in today for giving us a a for tuning in today for giving us a a slice of your time I know as a pastor slice of your time I know as a pastor slice of your time I know as a pastor you're super busy you got a lot going on you're super busy you got a lot going on you're super busy you got a lot going on in your world so I just really value the in your world so I just really value the in your world so I just really value the fact that you take some time uh to fact that you take some time uh to fact that you take some time uh to listen in on this conversation today and listen in on this conversation today and listen in on this conversation today and you're not going to be disappointed I you're not going to be disappointed I you're not going to be disappointed I have been really looking forward to this have been really looking forward to this have been really looking forward to this conversation for a few weeks now uh conversation for a few weeks now uh conversation for a few weeks now uh we've got William Vander blumin on uh we've got William Vander blumin on uh we've got William Vander blumin on uh the phone super excited to have him if the phone super excited to have him if the phone super excited to have him if you don't know William I hope by the end you don't know William I hope by the end you don't know William I hope by the end of this call you'll want to get to know of this call you'll want to get to know of this call you'll want to get to know him uh a little bit uh more and all what him uh a little bit uh more and all what him uh a little bit uh more and all what everything his organization does so everything his organization does so everything his organization does so William welcome to the show thanks Rich William welcome to the show thanks Rich William welcome to the show thanks Rich it's an honor to be here really glad to it's an honor to be here really glad to it's an honor to be here really glad to see what you're doing with un Seminary I see what you're doing with un Seminary I see what you're doing with un Seminary I think it's a a need that's going to be think it's a a need that's going to be think it's a a need that's going to be filled I've got a a kid who our oldest filled I've got a a kid who our oldest filled I've got a a kid who our oldest is a rising junor in college he wants to is a rising junor in college he wants to is a rising junor in college he wants to go into Ministry and I'm like well the go into Ministry and I'm like well the go into Ministry and I'm like well the last thing you need to do is go the last thing you need to do is go the last thing you need to do is go the traditional I power so he's probably traditional I power so he's probably traditional I power so he's probably listening today and and we'll be for a listening today and and we'll be for a listening today and and we'll be for a while I think it's an awesome idea and while I think it's an awesome idea and while I think it's an awesome idea and really glad to see it working ah so really glad to see it working ah so really glad to see it working ah so great I I really appreciate that thanks great I I really appreciate that thanks great I I really appreciate that thanks so much for uh for the encouragement so much for uh for the encouragement so much for uh for the encouragement there William well for people that don't there William well for people that don't there William well for people that don't know you why don't you kind of introduce know you why don't you kind of introduce know you why don't you kind of introduce yourself give us a sense of of Who You yourself give us a sense of of Who You yourself give us a sense of of Who You Are sure so uh I am uh I tell people I'm

Are sure so uh I am uh I tell people I'm Are sure so uh I am uh I tell people I'm a recovering Pastor which means uh that a recovering Pastor which means uh that a recovering Pastor which means uh that this probably gonna be a little this probably gonna be a little this probably gonna be a little long-winded but you told me four four long-winded but you told me four four long-winded but you told me four four hours right yeah something like that hours right yeah something like that hours right yeah something like that yeah until the computer runs out yeah yeah until the computer runs out yeah yeah until the computer runs out yeah right so uh yeah no I pastored churches right so uh yeah no I pastored churches right so uh yeah no I pastored churches uh for about 15 years and was in the uh for about 15 years and was in the uh for about 15 years and was in the mainline in the Presbyterian Church mainline in the Presbyterian Church mainline in the Presbyterian Church that's just where I grew up I was in a that's just where I grew up I was in a that's just where I grew up I was in a pretty Evangelical uh sort of Kingdom pretty Evangelical uh sort of Kingdom pretty Evangelical uh sort of Kingdom advancing Church and just went into what advancing Church and just went into what advancing Church and just went into what I grew up in didn't know any better had I grew up in didn't know any better had I grew up in didn't know any better had never heard of anything like the willow never heard of anything like the willow never heard of anything like the willow Creeks or liquid churches or anything in Creeks or liquid churches or anything in Creeks or liquid churches or anything in the world uh and really was kind of a uh the world uh and really was kind of a uh the world uh and really was kind of a uh I think probably a little bit of a I think probably a little bit of a I think probably a little bit of a misfit I if you looked at my contact misfit I if you looked at my contact misfit I if you looked at my contact list or friend list um while I was list or friend list um while I was list or friend list um while I was pastoring if you were nice you would say pastoring if you were nice you would say pastoring if you were nice you would say he has a diverse set of friends and if he has a diverse set of friends and if he has a diverse set of friends and if you were not nice you'd say he's you were not nice you'd say he's you were not nice you'd say he's schizophrenic so nice schizophrenic so nice schizophrenic so nice uh just developed this really crazy uh just developed this really crazy uh just developed this really crazy network of friends um left Ministry in network of friends um left Ministry in network of friends um left Ministry in the wake of a divorce which is not the wake of a divorce which is not the wake of a divorce which is not something I'd recommend but uh you don't something I'd recommend but uh you don't something I'd recommend but uh you don't always get to choose everything in life always get to choose everything in life always get to choose everything in life and went into the corporate world uh and went into the corporate world uh and went into the corporate world uh worked for a fortune 200 oil and gas worked for a fortune 200 oil and gas worked for a fortune 200 oil and gas company and helped them with succession company and helped them with succession company and helped them with succession planning Talent retention uh they were planning Talent retention uh they were planning Talent retention uh they were all great men that were leading the all great men that were leading the all great men that were leading the company I made great money and it was company I made great money and it was company I made great money and it was the the first year I'd ever maxed out my the the first year I'd ever maxed out my the the first year I'd ever maxed out my vacation time I I didn't know what hump

vacation time I I didn't know what hump vacation time I I didn't know what hump day was till I went into that job it was day was till I went into that job it was day was till I went into that job it was just awful so long story short God just awful so long story short God just awful so long story short God brought those two streams of experience brought those two streams of experience brought those two streams of experience together and I got to training under an together and I got to training under an together and I got to training under an executive Search consultant at uh that executive Search consultant at uh that executive Search consultant at uh that had been at Russell Reynolds which is had been at Russell Reynolds which is had been at Russell Reynolds which is sort of one of the best ones in the sort of one of the best ones in the sort of one of the best ones in the world and with the crazy idea of trying world and with the crazy idea of trying world and with the crazy idea of trying to build an executive Search practice to build an executive Search practice to build an executive Search practice for churches uh the guy that taught me for churches uh the guy that taught me for churches uh the guy that taught me said um you're going to try and help said um you're going to try and help said um you're going to try and help churches find staff and then they're churches find staff and then they're churches find staff and then they're going to pay you based on what they pay going to pay you based on what they pay going to pay you based on what they pay their people I said yeah he said you their people I said yeah he said you their people I said yeah he said you know you're you're GNA be like broke know you're you're GNA be like broke know you're you're GNA be like broke right and I said well let's give it a right and I said well let's give it a right and I said well let's give it a try because I I just love pastors I love try because I I just love pastors I love try because I I just love pastors I love churches and uh gosh that seems like a churches and uh gosh that seems like a churches and uh gosh that seems like a lifetime ago when we started now we're lifetime ago when we started now we're lifetime ago when we started now we're working all over the world uh working all over the world uh working all over the world uh internationally mostly in the US and internationally mostly in the US and internationally mostly in the US and with uh churches big and small small uh with uh churches big and small small uh with uh churches big and small small uh and now I do know why God put that and now I do know why God put that and now I do know why God put that diverse or skitso network together it's diverse or skitso network together it's diverse or skitso network together it's kind of all been leading up to uh this kind of all been leading up to uh this kind of all been leading up to uh this this uh chapter of life so it's just a this uh chapter of life so it's just a this uh chapter of life so it's just a lot of fun very humbling to get to help lot of fun very humbling to get to help lot of fun very humbling to get to help connect a church to their next Pastor or connect a church to their next Pastor or connect a church to their next Pastor or key pastoral staff member right you know key pastoral staff member right you know key pastoral staff member right you know I think um I I didn't know I forgot I think um I I didn't know I forgot I think um I I didn't know I forgot about the Presbyterian deal that about the Presbyterian deal that about the Presbyterian deal that actually that connects with my story I actually that connects with my story I actually that connects with my story I was uh that I was actually a was uh that I was actually a was uh that I was actually a Presbyterian Church that God got a hold Presbyterian Church that God got a hold Presbyterian Church that God got a hold of um my life and our family's life it of um my life and our family's life it of um my life and our family's life it just totally turned us upside down we just totally turned us upside down we just totally turned us upside down we ended up at this church and the guy at ended up at this church and the guy at ended up at this church and the guy at the church church talked like he

the church church talked like he the church church talked like he actually believed the Bible was true actually believed the Bible was true actually believed the Bible was true which I remember as a I was a eighth which I remember as a I was a eighth which I remember as a I was a eighth grade kid and I'm like wow this is grade kid and I'm like wow this is grade kid and I'm like wow this is different like I think that guy actually different like I think that guy actually different like I think that guy actually believed that stuff which was uh you believed that stuff which was uh you believed that stuff which was uh you know which the same kind of thing know which the same kind of thing know which the same kind of thing Evangelical Presbyterian Church it was Evangelical Presbyterian Church it was Evangelical Presbyterian Church it was it huge had huge influence uh on us so it huge had huge influence uh on us so it huge had huge influence uh on us so uh so and owe a lot to those uh those uh so and owe a lot to those uh those uh so and owe a lot to those uh those years for sure well well William you sit years for sure well well William you sit years for sure well well William you sit in a really unique place in the Kingdom in a really unique place in the Kingdom in a really unique place in the Kingdom you know you have um kind of insight you know you have um kind of insight you know you have um kind of insight into a lot of different churches across into a lot of different churches across into a lot of different churches across a bunch of different streams I I am a bunch of different streams I I am a bunch of different streams I I am intrigued when I see uh you know I intrigued when I see uh you know I intrigued when I see uh you know I follow you and and your organization on follow you and and your organization on follow you and and your organization on Twitter and get your emails and whenever Twitter and get your emails and whenever Twitter and get your emails and whenever I you know just kind of dip in and see I you know just kind of dip in and see I you know just kind of dip in and see all the different streams the kinds of all the different streams the kinds of all the different streams the kinds of churches that are coming to you it churches that are coming to you it churches that are coming to you it really is a wide spectrum um all really is a wide spectrum um all really is a wide spectrum um all different kinds of organizations which I different kinds of organizations which I different kinds of organizations which I think is great um but what would you say think is great um but what would you say think is great um but what would you say when you look kind of to the next 15 when you look kind of to the next 15 when you look kind of to the next 15 years would you say is kind of a big years would you say is kind of a big years would you say is kind of a big issue on the horizon that as Church lead issue on the horizon that as Church lead issue on the horizon that as Church lead we need to be thinking about yeah well we need to be thinking about yeah well we need to be thinking about yeah well I've got a a book coming out right now I've got a a book coming out right now I've got a a book coming out right now and if you anyone out there's written a and if you anyone out there's written a and if you anyone out there's written a book before you know I am the guy that book before you know I am the guy that book before you know I am the guy that just has a hammer so everything looks just has a hammer so everything looks just has a hammer so everything looks like a nail right like a nail right like a nail right so we wrote a book on pastoral so we wrote a book on pastoral so we wrote a book on pastoral Transitions and really we set out to Transitions and really we set out to Transitions and really we set out to write it I wrote it the co-author is write it I wrote it the co-author is write it I wrote it the co-author is Warren bird who's a researcher for uh Warren bird who's a researcher for uh Warren bird who's a researcher for uh leadership Network and is a a researcher leadership Network and is a a researcher leadership Network and is a a researcher extraordinaire yeah Warren's been on the extraordinaire yeah Warren's been on the extraordinaire yeah Warren's been on the show he's a fantastic guy fantastic show he's a fantastic guy fantastic show he's a fantastic guy fantastic great guy and uh we studied about 500 great guy and uh we studied about 500 great guy and uh we studied about 500 churches we did close to 200 uh inperson

churches we did close to 200 uh inperson churches we did close to 200 uh inperson interviews with succession stories uh interviews with succession stories uh interviews with succession stories uh and we started by thinking you know what and we started by thinking you know what and we started by thinking you know what what's gonna happen when Rick and Bill what's gonna happen when Rick and Bill what's gonna happen when Rick and Bill retire you know when Saddleback and retire you know when Saddleback and retire you know when Saddleback and Willow have to face paying the light Willow have to face paying the light Willow have to face paying the light bill without having the founders and and bill without having the founders and and bill without having the founders and and I'm not those are both great guys and I'm not those are both great guys and I'm not those are both great guys and have been mentors to me so not anything have been mentors to me so not anything have been mentors to me so not anything critical in saying that critical in saying that critical in saying that but they are sort of the the the but they are sort of the the the but they are sort of the the the pioneers of an era and that era's got a pioneers of an era and that era's got a pioneers of an era and that era's got a lot of guys that are getting a little lot of guys that are getting a little lot of guys that are getting a little bit older and so it's like what happens bit older and so it's like what happens bit older and so it's like what happens next you know 15 years from now the next you know 15 years from now the next you know 15 years from now the average age for the senior pastor of a average age for the senior pastor of a average age for the senior pastor of a mega church is 51 years old so okay 15 mega church is 51 years old so okay 15 mega church is 51 years old so okay 15 years from now it's not 51 anymore years from now it's not 51 anymore years from now it's not 51 anymore unless they're not mega churches so uh unless they're not mega churches so uh unless they're not mega churches so uh we really started to ask the question we really started to ask the question we really started to ask the question what are the common denominators in what are the common denominators in what are the common denominators in successions that have gone well uh what successions that have gone well uh what successions that have gone well uh what are the common denominators and ones are the common denominators and ones are the common denominators and ones that haven't gone well we talked to that haven't gone well we talked to that haven't gone well we talked to everybody we talked to the Schuler everybody we talked to the Schuler everybody we talked to the Schuler family from the Crystal Cathedral you family from the Crystal Cathedral you family from the Crystal Cathedral you know bankrupt now and gone y uh we know bankrupt now and gone y uh we know bankrupt now and gone y uh we talked to everyone who did not work out talked to everyone who did not work out talked to everyone who did not work out at First Baptist Dallas after Dr Chris at First Baptist Dallas after Dr Chris at First Baptist Dallas after Dr Chris will retired um we've talked to the will retired um we've talked to the will retired um we've talked to the stocks in Baton Rouge who have now done stocks in Baton Rouge who have now done stocks in Baton Rouge who have now done father to son father to son father to son three times and it's worked well so um three times and it's worked well so um three times and it's worked well so um we really found some some cool things we really found some some cool things we really found some some cool things happening but one thing we realized was happening but one thing we realized was happening but one thing we realized was uh pastors on average spend about 18

uh pastors on average spend about 18 uh pastors on average spend about 18 years serving churches in their years serving churches in their years serving churches in their Ministry and they have an average stay Ministry and they have an average stay Ministry and they have an average stay at their Church of eight years just at their Church of eight years just at their Church of eight years just across all senior pastor or head Pastor across all senior pastor or head Pastor across all senior pastor or head Pastor solo Pastor not student Pastor children solo Pastor not student Pastor children solo Pastor not student Pastor children Pastor such so you know on average a Pastor such so you know on average a Pastor such so you know on average a Pastor is going to transition at least Pastor is going to transition at least Pastor is going to transition at least twice during their career right so it's twice during their career right so it's twice during their career right so it's really not just about uh how do I really not just about uh how do I really not just about uh how do I prepare for when the guy who started the prepare for when the guy who started the prepare for when the guy who started the church and has been here forever leaves church and has been here forever leaves church and has been here forever leaves it's it's a book that we hope will it's it's a book that we hope will it's it's a book that we hope will prepare everybody and and the big idea prepare everybody and and the big idea prepare everybody and and the big idea behind the book was something that behind the book was something that behind the book was something that dawned on me one day I was talking to a dawned on me one day I was talking to a dawned on me one day I was talking to a a pastor and he said well I'm ready for a pastor and he said well I'm ready for a pastor and he said well I'm ready for a change and I was what do you want to a change and I was what do you want to a change and I was what do you want to do and he said I man I'll do youth do and he said I man I'll do youth do and he said I man I'll do youth ministry I'll do children's ministry ministry I'll do children's ministry ministry I'll do children's ministry I'll do I'll do anything except one I'll do I'll do anything except one I'll do I'll do anything except one thing what's that he said I will not be thing what's that he said I will not be thing what's that he said I will not be an interim pastor you know the kind of an interim pastor you know the kind of an interim pastor you know the kind of intentional interim and I don't it just intentional interim and I don't it just intentional interim and I don't it just kind of came out of me I said you know kind of came out of me I said you know kind of came out of me I said you know what every Pastor is an interim pastor what every Pastor is an interim pastor what every Pastor is an interim pastor wow that's true like unless you close wow that's true like unless you close wow that's true like unless you close the doors of your church unless you're the doors of your church unless you're the doors of your church unless you're the church planner it grows up and then the church planner it grows up and then the church planner it grows up and then you close it you you can shut it down uh you close it you you can shut it down uh you close it you you can shut it down uh Jesus could return that's another option Jesus could return that's another option Jesus could return that's another option right but beyond those two you someone's right but beyond those two you someone's right but beyond those two you someone's coming after you yeah coming after you yeah coming after you yeah yeah I think more than you wanted to yeah I think more than you wanted to yeah I think more than you wanted to hear but it's it's absolutely cool to hear but it's it's absolutely cool to hear but it's it's absolutely cool to learn yeah yeah you know I think that's learn yeah yeah you know I think that's learn yeah yeah you know I think that's a I think that's a great principle you a I think that's a great principle you a I think that's a great principle you know I remember my very first Pastor it know I remember my very first Pastor it know I remember my very first Pastor it uh with the you know one of the things uh with the you know one of the things uh with the you know one of the things that my my senior pastor said I remember

that my my senior pastor said I remember that my my senior pastor said I remember it was one of those things that it was one of those things that it was one of those things that resonated he said you know what this resonated he said you know what this resonated he said you know what this church belongs to the people that we're church belongs to the people that we're church belongs to the people that we're serving before we got here and it serving before we got here and it serving before we got here and it belongs to them after we leave and so belongs to them after we leave and so belongs to them after we leave and so our job is to Steward it um which I was our job is to Steward it um which I was our job is to Steward it um which I was like yeah that's an interesting thought like yeah that's an interesting thought like yeah that's an interesting thought but I think the idea there of stewarding but I think the idea there of stewarding but I think the idea there of stewarding this are we have a a a generation that this are we have a a a generation that this are we have a a a generation that our job is to hold it well um even if our job is to hold it well um even if our job is to hold it well um even if that's a long time um but we're going to that's a long time um but we're going to that's a long time um but we're going to pass it on now were there a few kind of pass it on now were there a few kind of pass it on now were there a few kind of nuggets now obviously ultimately want nuggets now obviously ultimately want nuggets now obviously ultimately want people to buy the book so don't give people to buy the book so don't give people to buy the book so don't give away everything but and you obviously away everything but and you obviously away everything but and you obviously can't in a few minute interview but what can't in a few minute interview but what can't in a few minute interview but what were those few things that kind of maybe were those few things that kind of maybe were those few things that kind of maybe first on the on the the person first on the on the the person first on the on the the person transitioning the kind of individual transitioning the kind of individual transitioning the kind of individual transitioning what were some of those transitioning what were some of those transitioning what were some of those things that you learned through this things that you learned through this things that you learned through this process sure well and I don't know uh if process sure well and I don't know uh if process sure well and I don't know uh if you want to send this out to your you want to send this out to your you want to send this out to your readers but I can send you a link to one readers but I can send you a link to one readers but I can send you a link to one of the uh chapters of the book oh of the uh chapters of the book oh of the uh chapters of the book oh perfect frankly I think is the best perfect frankly I think is the best perfect frankly I think is the best chapter in the book The the Ten chapter in the book The the Ten chapter in the book The the Ten Commandments of succession plan okay Commandments of succession plan okay Commandments of succession plan okay cool yeah you know one thing we found cool yeah you know one thing we found cool yeah you know one thing we found out um is there there is no cookie out um is there there is no cookie out um is there there is no cookie cutter so if you're talking to a cutter so if you're talking to a cutter so if you're talking to a consultant or a denominational leader or consultant or a denominational leader or consultant or a denominational leader or whoever that says well here are the whoever that says well here are the whoever that says well here are the seven steps to success well it's just seven steps to success well it's just seven steps to success well it's just not that way because you're dealing with not that way because you're dealing with not that way because you're dealing with people uh and people are living changing people uh and people are living changing people uh and people are living changing organisms and you dealing with a body of organisms and you dealing with a body of organisms and you dealing with a body of people in the church and a pastor so people in the church and a pastor so people in the church and a pastor so there is no one thing uh we did we did there is no one thing uh we did we did there is no one thing uh we did we did learn a few things that uh came out kind learn a few things that uh came out kind learn a few things that uh came out kind of as Cardinal rules uh one is the of as Cardinal rules uh one is the of as Cardinal rules uh one is the earlier you start planning the better in

earlier you start planning the better in earlier you start planning the better in the corporate world we found that you the corporate world we found that you the corporate world we found that you know know know there's lot of public trading regulations sorban of public trading regulations sorban Oxley is act that went through and a lot Oxley is act that went through and a lot Oxley is act that went through and a lot a lot of companies have said okay it is a lot of companies have said okay it is a lot of companies have said okay it is now a requirement that we have a now a requirement that we have a now a requirement that we have a succession plan you know for a public succession plan you know for a public succession plan you know for a public trust yeah and uh several companies we trust yeah and uh several companies we trust yeah and uh several companies we studied yeah several companies we studied yeah several companies we studied yeah several companies we studied uh had when the new CEO arrives studied uh had when the new CEO arrives studied uh had when the new CEO arrives and has its first board meeting the and has its first board meeting the and has its first board meeting the first agenda item is the succession plan first agenda item is the succession plan first agenda item is the succession plan wow like welcome to town what are we wow like welcome to town what are we wow like welcome to town what are we gonna do when you're G so it's not gonna do when you're G so it's not gonna do when you're G so it's not exactly the old church pounding that we exactly the old church pounding that we exactly the old church pounding that we used to get you know when the pastor used to get you know when the pastor used to get you know when the pastor arrived to town and and everybody filled arrived to town and and everybody filled arrived to town and and everybody filled the house with Goods but a church that a the house with Goods but a church that a the house with Goods but a church that a church that's willing to have that church that's willing to have that church that's willing to have that conversation early is is a smart Church conversation early is is a smart Church conversation early is is a smart Church they're rare but they're out there um they're rare but they're out there um they're rare but they're out there um couple of nuggets that we found that couple of nuggets that we found that couple of nuggets that we found that prevent good good successions is that uh prevent good good successions is that uh prevent good good successions is that uh one is just money okay and that's on one is just money okay and that's on one is just money okay and that's on both sides of the equation that that both sides of the equation that that both sides of the equation that that churches don't pay pastors enough and churches don't pay pastors enough and churches don't pay pastors enough and pastors don't manage their funds pastors don't manage their funds pastors don't manage their funds well and so you know we we feel like we well and so you know we we feel like we well and so you know we we feel like we put some good pointers in the book about put some good pointers in the book about put some good pointers in the book about how a church board can provide financial how a church board can provide financial how a church board can provide financial planning for the pastor how they can planning for the pastor how they can planning for the pastor how they can make sure they're paying the right make sure they're paying the right make sure they're paying the right amount because you know they're trying amount because you know they're trying amount because you know they're trying to Ste the the offerings out of the to Ste the the offerings out of the to Ste the the offerings out of the Widow's cupboard yeah uh at the same

Widow's cupboard yeah uh at the same Widow's cupboard yeah uh at the same time you got to pay them well enough time you got to pay them well enough time you got to pay them well enough that they can retire right right right that they can retire right right right that they can retire right right right um and then the other the other thing um and then the other the other thing um and then the other the other thing that we found was a really smart that we found was a really smart that we found was a really smart churches somewhere around 50 or 55 more churches somewhere around 50 or 55 more churches somewhere around 50 or 55 more like 55 for most pastors they're tends like 55 for most pastors they're tends like 55 for most pastors they're tends to be a common theme that they develop U to be a common theme that they develop U to be a common theme that they develop U sort of an advocation or an area of sort of an advocation or an area of sort of an advocation or an area of passion maybe it's a a mission cause passion maybe it's a a mission cause passion maybe it's a a mission cause abroad somewhere that they've been abroad somewhere that they've been abroad somewhere that they've been working with for a while or a children's working with for a while or a children's working with for a while or a children's home or uh teaching at a seminary or home or uh teaching at a seminary or home or uh teaching at a seminary or something like that um lots of churches something like that um lots of churches something like that um lots of churches normal response is you don't need to do normal response is you don't need to do normal response is you don't need to do that we need to have all your attention that we need to have all your attention that we need to have all your attention smart churches let that grow and and smart churches let that grow and and smart churches let that grow and and create more and more time for it so that create more and more time for it so that create more and more time for it so that when it's time to when it's time to when it's time to transition they've got somewhere to go transition they've got somewhere to go transition they've got somewhere to go right they've got an identity because right they've got an identity because right they've got an identity because you know there's no profession I know you know there's no profession I know you know there's no profession I know that consumes your identity like the that consumes your identity like the that consumes your identity like the pastor it's it it's where you do social pastor it's it it's where you do social pastor it's it it's where you do social networking it's where you have networking it's where you have networking it's where you have friendships it's where you do your friendships it's where you do your friendships it's where you do your spiritual life it's I mean it's it's all spiritual life it's I mean it's it's all spiritual life it's I mean it's it's all in right right and a loss of identity is in right right and a loss of identity is in right right and a loss of identity is a is a big problem for guys that leave a is a big problem for guys that leave a is a big problem for guys that leave and it T be why they come back and and it T be why they come back and and it T be why they come back and micromanage but the real secret that you micromanage but the real secret that you micromanage but the real secret that you know we we probably could have gotten in know we we probably could have gotten in know we we probably could have gotten in a lot of trouble if we'd have written a lot of trouble if we'd have written a lot of trouble if we'd have written more about um and so no tweeting this more about um and so no tweeting this more about um and so no tweeting this right but really smart churches take right but really smart churches take right but really smart churches take great care of the outgoing pastor's

great care of the outgoing pastor's great care of the outgoing pastor's spouse oh that's a that's spouse oh that's a that's spouse oh that's a that's great I could tell you horror stories of great I could tell you horror stories of great I could tell you horror stories of successions and and there's a direct successions and and there's a direct successions and and there's a direct line from all the wreckage back to the line from all the wreckage back to the line from all the wreckage back to the outgoing pastor's spouse either wasn't outgoing pastor's spouse either wasn't outgoing pastor's spouse either wasn't treated well or didn't feel right or treated well or didn't feel right or treated well or didn't feel right or wasn't honor didn't they didn't do wasn't honor didn't they didn't do wasn't honor didn't they didn't do anything on the way out or yeah I can I anything on the way out or yeah I can I anything on the way out or yeah I can I can identify with that I know in my life can identify with that I know in my life can identify with that I know in my life I've joked that the voice of the Lord I've joked that the voice of the Lord I've joked that the voice of the Lord sounds very similar to the voice of my sounds very similar to the voice of my sounds very similar to the voice of my wife you know there's a there's a strong wife you know there's a there's a strong wife you know there's a there's a strong correlation between those two um and I correlation between those two um and I correlation between those two um and I think that's true you know I can see think that's true you know I can see think that's true you know I can see that um you know for sure and you know that um you know for sure and you know that um you know for sure and you know uh First Baptist Dallas had uh Dr uh First Baptist Dallas had uh Dr uh First Baptist Dallas had uh Dr chrisol forever like you know nearly 50 chrisol forever like you know nearly 50 chrisol forever like you know nearly 50 years something some crazy number like years something some crazy number like years something some crazy number like that before him was Dr Truitt Truitt that before him was Dr Truitt Truitt that before him was Dr Truitt Truitt Seminary right and he was there about Seminary right and he was there about Seminary right and he was there about the same amount of time so you know in the same amount of time so you know in the same amount of time so you know in 100 years something like that it's like 100 years something like that it's like 100 years something like that it's like 90 years or it's long whatever it is so 90 years or it's long whatever it is so 90 years or it's long whatever it is so we I didn't know we found some research we I didn't know we found some research we I didn't know we found some research that showed that when Dr chrisell got that showed that when Dr chrisell got that showed that when Dr chrisell got there he almost didn't make it like it there he almost didn't make it like it there he almost didn't make it like it was pretty Rocky for a while and and the was pretty Rocky for a while and and the was pretty Rocky for a while and and the one of the key turning points and you one of the key turning points and you one of the key turning points and you might have some people that disagree but might have some people that disagree but might have some people that disagree but but one of the key turning points was but one of the key turning points was but one of the key turning points was Miss Truitt reached out to miss chrisell Miss Truitt reached out to miss chrisell Miss Truitt reached out to miss chrisell and said let's make this work really wow and said let's make this work really wow and said let's make this work really wow that's fascinating well you can see that that's fascinating well you can see that that's fascinating well you can see that right that just practically makes sense right that just practically makes sense right that just practically makes sense right that's like one of those yeah you right that's like one of those yeah you right that's like one of those yeah you can see that that makes sense you know I can see that that makes sense you know I can see that that makes sense you know I what are the a question so um you know I what are the a question so um you know I what are the a question so um you know I uh a lot of I'm in my 40s I'm a 40-some

uh a lot of I'm in my 40s I'm a 40-some uh a lot of I'm in my 40s I'm a 40-some and I look around and my peers are a lot and I look around and my peers are a lot and I look around and my peers are a lot of the 40something uh folks and one of of the 40something uh folks and one of of the 40something uh folks and one of the things I've noticed is churches it the things I've noticed is churches it the things I've noticed is churches it seems like a lot of churches that are seems like a lot of churches that are seems like a lot of churches that are LED by people particularly in that time LED by people particularly in that time LED by people particularly in that time frame they kind of folks come into their frame they kind of folks come into their frame they kind of folks come into their 40s and like their churches are super 40s and like their churches are super 40s and like their churches are super Innovative they're doing all kinds of Innovative they're doing all kinds of Innovative they're doing all kinds of stuff and then they leave their 40s and stuff and then they leave their 40s and stuff and then they leave their 40s and it's they're not doing that anymore it's they're not doing that anymore it's they're not doing that anymore there's a bit more atrophy has set in there's a bit more atrophy has set in there's a bit more atrophy has set in there's a bit more um you know whether there's a bit more um you know whether there's a bit more um you know whether we become less risk taking I don't know we become less risk taking I don't know we become less risk taking I don't know you know what why that is but you know you know what why that is but you know you know what why that is but you know what would you say to a church leader what would you say to a church leader what would you say to a church leader even in their 40s which is still a even in their 40s which is still a even in their 40s which is still a couple decades off from you know that couple decades off from you know that couple decades off from you know that kind of transition are there things they kind of transition are there things they kind of transition are there things they could be doing to prepare even now uh could be doing to prepare even now uh could be doing to prepare even now uh for that kind of transition well that is for that kind of transition well that is for that kind of transition well that is so insightful Rich you know we did a so insightful Rich you know we did a so insightful Rich you know we did a study a while back we need to do it study a while back we need to do it study a while back we need to do it again with a much bigger sampling but we again with a much bigger sampling but we again with a much bigger sampling but we we asked the question knowing god can we asked the question knowing god can we asked the question knowing god can use a man or woman whenever go he use a man or woman whenever go he use a man or woman whenever go he chooses to what are the normal times chooses to what are the normal times chooses to what are the normal times that he lays his hand on a pastor and that he lays his hand on a pastor and that he lays his hand on a pastor and says this is the sweet spot right right says this is the sweet spot right right says this is the sweet spot right right Josiah was eight when he was King Abram Josiah was eight when he was King Abram Josiah was eight when he was King Abram was a bajillion when he started Israel was a bajillion when he started Israel was a bajillion when he started Israel but what's but what's but what's the yeah right yeah stud Church growth charts yeah stud Church growth charts and ages when you see the spike in and ages when you see the spike in and ages when you see the spike in growth I can show you the pastor's 40th growth I can show you the pastor's 40th growth I can show you the pastor's 40th birthday it's like predictable it's just

birthday it's like predictable it's just birthday it's like predictable it's just it's like they're they're young enough it's like they're they're young enough it's like they're they're young enough they've got fire in the belly but they've got fire in the belly but they've got fire in the belly but they're not 25 you know I took over a they're not 25 you know I took over a they're not 25 you know I took over a big church when I was 31 and uh you know big church when I was 31 and uh you know big church when I was 31 and uh you know the the advantage of doing that when the the advantage of doing that when the the advantage of doing that when you're 31 is you know everything right you're 31 is you know everything right you're 31 is you know everything right so at 31 you think you know everything so at 31 you think you know everything so at 31 you think you know everything by the time you're by the time you're by the time you're 40 by the time you're 40 you you've 40 by the time you're 40 you you've 40 by the time you're 40 you you've gotten knocked around enough that it's a gotten knocked around enough that it's a gotten knocked around enough that it's a nice combination so 40 is a great start nice combination so 40 is a great start nice combination so 40 is a great start Point U so if you keep going down that Point U so if you keep going down that Point U so if you keep going down that study I can show you the pastor's 55th study I can show you the pastor's 55th study I can show you the pastor's 55th birthday wow every time fascinating some birthday wow every time fascinating some birthday wow every time fascinating some of them go longer I mean Ed young turns of them go longer I mean Ed young turns of them go longer I mean Ed young turns 80 I think this year maybe next and he's 80 I think this year maybe next and he's 80 I think this year maybe next and he's still taking steps two at a time and still taking steps two at a time and still taking steps two at a time and killing it Steve fct's just over 30 and killing it Steve fct's just over 30 and killing it Steve fct's just over 30 and he's killing it so know it it there are he's killing it so know it it there are he's killing it so know it it there are anomalies but there's this Coast thing anomalies but there's this Coast thing anomalies but there's this Coast thing that happens and I don't want to go all that happens and I don't want to go all that happens and I don't want to go all super super super spiritual but if you look in the Bible spiritual but if you look in the Bible spiritual but if you look in the Bible you know you you hear you tell your you know you you hear you tell your you know you you hear you tell your volunteers as a pastor all the time volunteers as a pastor all the time volunteers as a pastor all the time retirement isn't biblical right right retirement isn't biblical right right retirement isn't biblical right right right well it is retirement's mentioned right well it is retirement's mentioned right well it is retirement's mentioned one time in the Bible okay and it was one time in the Bible okay and it was one time in the Bible okay and it was mandatory and it was for the priest mandatory and it was for the priest mandatory and it was for the priest oh and and it was oh and and it was oh and and it was 55 David they quit wandering around the 55 David they quit wandering around the 55 David they quit wandering around the Wilderness David changed it to 60 and Wilderness David changed it to 60 and Wilderness David changed it to 60 and the reason behind it was of course the reason behind it was of course the reason behind it was of course they're carrying the Tabernacle right so they're carrying the Tabernacle right so they're carrying the Tabernacle right so but if you think of it spiritually a bit but if you think of it spiritually a bit but if you think of it spiritually a bit yep the weight of carrying the things of yep the weight of carrying the things of yep the weight of carrying the things of God becomes too much for a man after a God becomes too much for a man after a God becomes too much for a man after a certain age right huh that's fascinating

certain age right huh that's fascinating certain age right huh that's fascinating that's uh that it's interesting because that's uh that it's interesting because that's uh that it's interesting because that I've you know that whole 40 has that I've you know that whole 40 has that I've you know that whole 40 has been something that's been resonating been something that's been resonating been something that's been resonating and you could see that right at some and you could see that right at some and you could see that right at some point um you know like there's guys you point um you know like there's guys you point um you know like there's guys you mentioned it like I you know I look at a mentioned it like I you know I look at a mentioned it like I you know I look at a guy like Bill hibl who we all stand on guy like Bill hibl who we all stand on guy like Bill hibl who we all stand on his shoulders in one way or another and his shoulders in one way or another and his shoulders in one way or another and I'm like I'm looking forward to the day I'm like I'm looking forward to the day I'm like I'm looking forward to the day he gets to retire right CU it's like you he gets to retire right CU it's like you he gets to retire right CU it's like you know at some point you're like do you know at some point you're like do you know at some point you're like do you really want to get up and preach one really want to get up and preach one really want to get up and preach one more sermon you know do you really want more sermon you know do you really want more sermon you know do you really want to another service and and the other to another service and and the other to another service and and the other thing we found is you know the the thing we found is you know the the thing we found is you know the the biggest fear people have in life is biggest fear people have in life is biggest fear people have in life is public speaking right you know the old public speaking right you know the old public speaking right you know the old Seinfeld higher than death they the Seinfeld higher than death they the Seinfeld higher than death they the subject of the funeral than than the subject of the funeral than than the subject of the funeral than than the funeral speaker right yes yes well for a funeral speaker right yes yes well for a funeral speaker right yes yes well for a man to have an ability to get up and man to have an ability to get up and man to have an ability to get up and speak every week and say God says this speak every week and say God says this speak every week and say God says this for your life that's big right that's for your life that's big right that's for your life that's big right that's huge the shadow side of that is the huge the shadow side of that is the huge the shadow side of that is the voice that Whispers In Your Ear saying voice that Whispers In Your Ear saying voice that Whispers In Your Ear saying you got one more season right right we you got one more season right right we you got one more season right right we named it in the book in the book we named it in the book in the book we named it in the book in the book we named it Brett Favre syndrome right right right it's I I syndrome right right right it's I I think what you can do to prevent that is think what you can do to prevent that is think what you can do to prevent that is have an honest annual conversation with have an honest annual conversation with have an honest annual conversation with your board set metrics what are the your board set metrics what are the your board set metrics what are the things we're going to do so that when things we're going to do so that when things we're going to do so that when Plateau hits we've all said this is a Plateau hits we've all said this is a Plateau hits we've all said this is a plateau and what are we goingon to do plateau and what are we goingon to do plateau and what are we goingon to do about it oh gosh that's huge repeat what about it oh gosh that's huge repeat what about it oh gosh that's huge repeat what you just said there because I think you just said there because I think you just said there because I think that's huge for all of us well I think that's huge for all of us well I think that's huge for all of us well I think the smart board if you're a young pastor the smart board if you're a young pastor the smart board if you're a young pastor and the pastor is GNA have to lead the and the pastor is GNA have to lead the and the pastor is GNA have to lead the conversation the board's not going to do conversation the board's not going to do conversation the board's not going to do it and unless you're in like a toxic

it and unless you're in like a toxic it and unless you're in like a toxic situation right smart Pastors in their situation right smart Pastors in their situation right smart Pastors in their 40s will say all right guys let's get 40s will say all right guys let's get 40s will say all right guys let's get together let's set some metrics and it together let's set some metrics and it together let's set some metrics and it might be spiritual growth it might be might be spiritual growth it might be might be spiritual growth it might be baptisms whatever the metrics are set baptisms whatever the metrics are set baptisms whatever the metrics are set those metrics now to say when these stop those metrics now to say when these stop those metrics now to say when these stop growing we know we're in that Plateau growing we know we're in that Plateau growing we know we're in that Plateau where I'm at the spot where we need to where I'm at the spot where we need to where I'm at the spot where we need to either underg guard the staff with some either underg guard the staff with some either underg guard the staff with some younger people or I need to move in a younger people or I need to move in a younger people or I need to move in a different role but let's name it ahead different role but let's name it ahead different role but let's name it ahead of time so it's not a surprise when it of time so it's not a surprise when it of time so it's not a surprise when it happens this is the unseminary podcast happens this is the unseminary podcast happens this is the unseminary podcast stuff you wish they taught in seminary stuff you wish they taught in seminary stuff you wish they taught in seminary let's jump into the lightning round this let's jump into the lightning round this let's jump into the lightning round this is that part of the show where we ask is that part of the show where we ask is that part of the show where we ask the similar questions to everybody who's the similar questions to everybody who's the similar questions to everybody who's been on the show just to kind of get a been on the show just to kind of get a been on the show just to kind of get a sense of what's Happening uh in their sense of what's Happening uh in their sense of what's Happening uh in their life so today we're super privileged to life so today we're super privileged to life so today we're super privileged to have William Vander blumin from Vander have William Vander blumin from Vander have William Vander blumin from Vander bluman Search Group on is it William bluman Search Group on is it William bluman Search Group on is it William Vander is it Vander blooman Search Group Vander is it Vander blooman Search Group Vander is it Vander blooman Search Group yes yes great on the show and uh so what yes yes great on the show and uh so what yes yes great on the show and uh so what is one online resource that you're using is one online resource that you're using is one online resource that you're using these days that's helping you out in these days that's helping you out in these days that's helping you out in your your your work you verion okay nice absolutely work you verion okay nice absolutely work you verion okay nice absolutely it's going to be written about 500 years it's going to be written about 500 years it's going to be written about 500 years from now but there's more Bible reading from now but there's more Bible reading from now but there's more Bible reading done with that than anything ever and I done with that than anything ever and I done with that than anything ever and I use it every single day perfect uh use it every single day perfect uh use it every single day perfect uh what's a book besides your book that what's a book besides your book that what's a book besides your book that you've read in the last six month six you've read in the last six month six you've read in the last six month six months that's had uh you know an impact months that's had uh you know an impact months that's had uh you know an impact on your on your on your thinking uh one book that we use around thinking uh one book that we use around thinking uh one book that we use around our office and we use it as part of our our office and we use it as part of our our office and we use it as part of our onboarding because we try and offer a onboarding because we try and offer a onboarding because we try and offer a really high level of service U at a cost really high level of service U at a cost really high level of service U at a cost churches can afford but I mean like a churches can afford but I mean like a churches can afford but I mean like a ridiculously high level of service uh is

ridiculously high level of service uh is ridiculously high level of service uh is a book that was written by the man AG a book that was written by the man AG a book that was written by the man AG team of the RZ Carlton it's called the team of the RZ Carlton it's called the team of the RZ Carlton it's called the new gold standard and it just talks new gold standard and it just talks new gold standard and it just talks about how they drive quality from the about how they drive quality from the about how they drive quality from the top of the SE Suite all the way down to top of the SE Suite all the way down to top of the SE Suite all the way down to the suf and uh we we found it to be the suf and uh we we found it to be the suf and uh we we found it to be really helpful for what we're trying to really helpful for what we're trying to really helpful for what we're trying to do very cool uh what's another Ministry do very cool uh what's another Ministry do very cool uh what's another Ministry that you're looking at these days that's that you're looking at these days that's that you're looking at these days that's kind of inspiring kind of inspiring kind of inspiring you Dave Ramsey so uh Dave we went to you Dave Ramsey so uh Dave we went to you Dave Ramsey so uh Dave we went to his conference when we were first his conference when we were first his conference when we were first starting out our business and his starting out our business and his starting out our business and his conference on how to run a business and conference on how to run a business and conference on how to run a business and he since become a mentor friend and and he since become a mentor friend and and he since become a mentor friend and and actually one of our larger clients now actually one of our larger clients now actually one of our larger clients now yeah I've noticed that you guys have yeah I've noticed that you guys have yeah I've noticed that you guys have done some placements some pretty high done some placements some pretty high done some placements some pretty high level placements for them which is cool level placements for them which is cool level placements for them which is cool um if you could get 15 minutes with any um if you could get 15 minutes with any um if you could get 15 minutes with any leader alive in the entire world uh who leader alive in the entire world uh who leader alive in the entire world uh who would you want to get that time with and would you want to get that time with and would you want to get that time with and you know you know you know why um probably this is gonna sound why um probably this is gonna sound why um probably this is gonna sound crazy everybody's gonna hang up and crazy everybody's gonna hang up and crazy everybody's gonna hang up and you're gonna lose subscriptions but it's you're gonna lose subscriptions but it's you're gonna lose subscriptions but it's I'm say Tony I'm say Tony I'm say Tony Robbins yeah that's a good good not Robbins yeah that's a good good not Robbins yeah that's a good good not because I like watching shallow how or because I like watching shallow how or because I like watching shallow how or anything like that you know it's uh he anything like that you know it's uh he anything like that you know it's uh he uh he is he is mentoring more world uh he is he is mentoring more world uh he is he is mentoring more world class leaders than anyone else that I class leaders than anyone else that I class leaders than anyone else that I know and so I would love to have 15 know and so I would love to have 15 know and so I would love to have 15 minutes with him uh just to to glean minutes with him uh just to to glean minutes with him uh just to to glean he's also got great teeth you know he's he's also got great teeth you know he's he's also got great teeth you know he's got those nice got those nice got those nice fantastic all right so when you're just fantastic all right so when you're just fantastic all right so when you're just looking to have fun kind of Kickback looking to have fun kind of Kickback looking to have fun kind of Kickback you're not you know you're done placing you're not you know you're done placing you're not you know you're done placing people for the day what do you do for people for the day what do you do for people for the day what do you do for fun how do you relax you know have some

fun how do you relax you know have some fun how do you relax you know have some fun fun fun uh well we have seven kids so we you uh well we have seven kids so we you uh well we have seven kids so we you know relax and fun we love our family know relax and fun we love our family know relax and fun we love our family but you know uh um with with seven kids but you know uh um with with seven kids but you know uh um with with seven kids you can guess what we do for fun right you can guess what we do for fun right you can guess what we do for fun right exactly exactly yeah we used I used to exactly exactly yeah we used I used to exactly exactly yeah we used I used to swing a golf club a little bit but not swing a golf club a little bit but not swing a golf club a little bit but not much anymore nice all right so William much anymore nice all right so William much anymore nice all right so William if people want to get in touch with you if people want to get in touch with you if people want to get in touch with you um you know or your organization how can um you know or your organization how can um you know or your organization how can they do that what's the best way for they do that what's the best way for they do that what's the best way for them to be in touch or to find the book them to be in touch or to find the book them to be in touch or to find the book we'll put a link on the on the on the we'll put a link on the on the on the we'll put a link on the on the on the you know show notes but how can they do you know show notes but how can they do you know show notes but how can they do that sure yeah um and it's super simple that sure yeah um and it's super simple that sure yeah um and it's super simple you just go to Vander blum.com and I you just go to Vander blum.com and I you just go to Vander blum.com and I mean on the off chance that your people mean on the off chance that your people mean on the off chance that your people don't know how to spell that just remote don't know how to spell that just remote don't know how to spell that just remote right um can go to find hour leader.com right um can go to find hour leader.com right um can go to find hour leader.com nice uh and for the book they can go to nice uh and for the book they can go to nice uh and for the book they can go to next pastor.com you know we went to a next pastor.com you know we went to a next pastor.com you know we went to a brand specialist when we started the brand specialist when we started the brand specialist when we started the firm we bought probably 300 domain firm we bought probably 300 domain firm we bought probably 300 domain domain names find our pastor all these domain names find our pastor all these domain names find our pastor all these different things yeah and they did their different things yeah and they did their different things yeah and they did their study and came back and said you know study and came back and said you know study and came back and said you know what your last name is so screwed up it what your last name is so screwed up it what your last name is so screwed up it works nice that's fun yeah well that's works nice that's fun yeah well that's works nice that's fun yeah well that's cool William I really appreciate you cool William I really appreciate you cool William I really appreciate you being on the show today thanks so much being on the show today thanks so much being on the show today thanks so much for taking time out and and for sharing for taking time out and and for sharing for taking time out and and for sharing and I encourage people to go out and and I encourage people to go out and and I encourage people to go out and grab the book and and read it and and I grab the book and and read it and and I grab the book and and read it and and I think it really will have an impact think it really will have an impact think it really will have an impact hopefully for you know years to come hopefully for you know years to come hopefully for you know years to come thanks a lot Rich really appreciate what thanks a lot Rich really appreciate what thanks a lot Rich really appreciate what you're doing thank you for tuning in to you're doing thank you for tuning in to you're doing thank you for tuning in to this week's unseminary podcast don't be this week's unseminary podcast don't be this week's unseminary podcast don't be shy we'd love to connect check out

shy we'd love to connect check out shy we'd love to connect check out unseminary inbox you can sign up at unseminary inbox you can sign up at unseminary inbox you can sign up at unseminary dcom and we'll send you unseminary dcom and we'll send you unseminary dcom and we'll send you helpful training resources every week helpful training resources every week helpful training resources every week plus you'll gain immediate access to our plus you'll gain immediate access to our plus you'll gain immediate access to our exclusive members area with tons of exclusive members area with tons of exclusive members area with tons of resources you can use connect with Rich resources you can use connect with Rich resources you can use connect with Rich on Twitter at Rich Birch or through on Twitter at Rich Birch or through on Twitter at Rich Birch or through email Rich unseminary docomomo today's episode drop by it tun docomomo today's episode drop by it tun and leave a review Thanks again for and leave a review Thanks again for and leave a review Thanks again for tuning in to this week's unseminary tuning in to this week's unseminary tuning in to this week's unseminary podcast join us next week when we'll podcast join us next week when we'll podcast join us next week when we'll learn more stuff we wish they taught in learn more stuff we wish they taught in learn more stuff we wish they taught in seminary