Why Gifted Pastors Still Crash: Four Honest Conversations About the Inner Life of a Leader

Hey friends, welcome to the Unseminary Hey friends, welcome to the Unseminary podcast. So glad that you have decided podcast. So glad that you have decided podcast. So glad that you have decided to tune in. You know, the subtitle of to tune in. You know, the subtitle of to tune in. You know, the subtitle of our podcast is stuff you wish they our podcast is stuff you wish they our podcast is stuff you wish they taught in seminary. And today, I wish taught in seminary. And today, I wish taught in seminary. And today, I wish there was like a big underline under there was like a big underline under there was like a big underline under that word wish. I wish this conversation that word wish. I wish this conversation that word wish. I wish this conversation was a robust conversation when I was in was a robust conversation when I was in was a robust conversation when I was in school. Today we're listening in on four school. Today we're listening in on four school. Today we're listening in on four senior leaders talking about really senior leaders talking about really senior leaders talking about really stuff that was going on on the inside stuff that was going on on the inside stuff that was going on on the inside when nobody was watching. This is a good when nobody was watching. This is a good when nobody was watching. This is a good time of year for you and I as executive time of year for you and I as executive time of year for you and I as executive leaders to pull back and to think deeply leaders to pull back and to think deeply leaders to pull back and to think deeply about the kind of structures we're about the kind of structures we're about the kind of structures we're building as an organization that really building as an organization that really building as an organization that really create a flourishing environment for our create a flourishing environment for our create a flourishing environment for our people. You know, we asked earlier in people. You know, we asked earlier in people. You know, we asked earlier in the year what your greatest fears were the year what your greatest fears were the year what your greatest fears were for this year and 24.8 8% of you for this year and 24.8 8% of you for this year and 24.8 8% of you indicated that staff health, structure, indicated that staff health, structure, indicated that staff health, structure, morale, succession were your top fear morale, succession were your top fear morale, succession were your top fear this year. And so today's conversation, this year. And so today's conversation, this year. And so today's conversation, what we're doing is listening in on four what we're doing is listening in on four what we're doing is listening in on four senior pastors who get really honest on senior pastors who get really honest on senior pastors who get really honest on the show about what was happening on the the show about what was happening on the the show about what was happening on the inside of them. one of the uh churches inside of them. one of the uh churches inside of them. one of the uh churches that I was an executive pastor at about that I was an executive pastor at about that I was an executive pastor at about a decade after I left, the senior leader a decade after I left, the senior leader a decade after I left, the senior leader made tragic decisions in their own made tragic decisions in their own made tragic decisions in their own personal life that ended up burning the personal life that ended up burning the personal life that ended up burning the church down literally to the place where church down literally to the place where church down literally to the place where that organization doesn't exist anymore.

that organization doesn't exist anymore. that organization doesn't exist anymore. And from my understanding, actually the And from my understanding, actually the And from my understanding, actually the building is going to be demolished. Uh building is going to be demolished. Uh building is going to be demolished. Uh literally there's nothing left. A literally there's nothing left. A literally there's nothing left. A ministry that impacted tens of thousands ministry that impacted tens of thousands ministry that impacted tens of thousands of people doesn't exist today because of of people doesn't exist today because of of people doesn't exist today because of the decisions of a senior leader. And so the decisions of a senior leader. And so the decisions of a senior leader. And so at this time of year in the summertime, at this time of year in the summertime, at this time of year in the summertime, I want to challenge us to be to listen I want to challenge us to be to listen I want to challenge us to be to listen carefully to some leaders that have been carefully to some leaders that have been carefully to some leaders that have been through some horrific moments and have through some horrific moments and have through some horrific moments and have come out the other side more healthy. come out the other side more healthy. come out the other side more healthy. And I want us to learn from these And I want us to learn from these And I want us to learn from these moments and say, "Hey, what can we do to moments and say, "Hey, what can we do to moments and say, "Hey, what can we do to structure our ministry so that we can be structure our ministry so that we can be structure our ministry so that we can be the healthiest possible environments we the healthiest possible environments we the healthiest possible environments we can possibly be?" So, up first, we've can possibly be?" So, up first, we've can possibly be?" So, up first, we've got Bob Rei at Church of the Open Door got Bob Rei at Church of the Open Door got Bob Rei at Church of the Open Door who hit a wall on a Sunday morning a few who hit a wall on a Sunday morning a few who hit a wall on a Sunday morning a few years ago, and he learned about years ago, and he learned about years ago, and he learned about ungrieved losses that took 40 years of ungrieved losses that took 40 years of ungrieved losses that took 40 years of ministry to see. So, let's listen into ministry to see. So, let's listen into ministry to see. So, let's listen into Bob and see how what you and I can learn Bob and see how what you and I can learn Bob and see how what you and I can learn as we think about the future.

as we think about the future. as we think about the future. >> I really do think that loss and >> I really do think that loss and >> I really do think that loss and especially not properly processing and especially not properly processing and especially not properly processing and grieving loss was a big part of uh what grieving loss was a big part of uh what grieving loss was a big part of uh what was behind all of this. In 2018, I lost was behind all of this. In 2018, I lost was behind all of this. In 2018, I lost my brother, my younger brother, my brother, my younger brother, my brother, my younger brother, >> who was, you know, really my wingman in >> who was, you know, really my wingman in >> who was, you know, really my wingman in so many ways. That was a loss that, you so many ways. That was a loss that, you so many ways. That was a loss that, you know, I think in some ways I'm still know, I think in some ways I'm still know, I think in some ways I'm still wrestling with. During the pandemic, we wrestling with. During the pandemic, we wrestling with. During the pandemic, we lost, you know, pick a number, you know, lost, you know, pick a number, you know, lost, you know, pick a number, you know, a lot of loss as far as, you know, a lot of loss as far as, you know, a lot of loss as far as, you know, attendance and stuff. At first, we were attendance and stuff. At first, we were attendance and stuff. At first, we were off for, you know, we were off for about off for, you know, we were off for about off for, you know, we were off for about four months, but then when we came back, four months, but then when we came back, four months, but then when we came back, people began to trickle in and it was people began to trickle in and it was people began to trickle in and it was clear to me that we lost clear to me that we lost clear to me that we lost >> hundreds of people as well from our >> hundreds of people as well from our >> hundreds of people as well from our church that during that time. That was church that during that time. That was church that during that time. That was probably a profound thing for me. We probably a profound thing for me. We probably a profound thing for me. We lost some key staff me members as well lost some key staff me members as well lost some key staff me members as well during that time. I lost some friends during that time. I lost some friends during that time. I lost some friends because of the politics and some of the because of the politics and some of the because of the politics and some of the difficulty of that. And so I think loss difficulty of that. And so I think loss difficulty of that. And so I think loss was a was a big part of that. My was a was a big part of that. My was a was a big part of that. My counselors really helped me a lot with counselors really helped me a lot with counselors really helped me a lot with that. Not properly grieving loss. You that. Not properly grieving loss. You that. Not properly grieving loss. You know, Terry Ward is one who said that know, Terry Ward is one who said that know, Terry Ward is one who said that ministry is a series of ungrerieved ministry is a series of ungrerieved ministry is a series of ungrerieved losses and and and if we and and I found losses and and and if we and and I found losses and and and if we and and I found that I I really wasn't doing that good.

that I I really wasn't doing that good. that I I really wasn't doing that good. I was I was I was >> I was shaking it off and just moving >> I was shaking it off and just moving >> I was shaking it off and just moving forward. forward. forward. >> Shaking it off and moving forward >> Shaking it off and moving forward >> Shaking it off and moving forward >> and not really grieving it and and and >> and not really grieving it and and and >> and not really grieving it and and and bringing God into it bringing God into it bringing God into it >> and surrendering it to him. And and I >> and surrendering it to him. And and I >> and surrendering it to him. And and I think part of what happened with that as think part of what happened with that as think part of what happened with that as well was I was concerned about what well was I was concerned about what well was I was concerned about what people thought, you know, with uh we people thought, you know, with uh we people thought, you know, with uh we were, you know, this powerhouse of a were, you know, this powerhouse of a were, you know, this powerhouse of a church growing like crazy. And all of a church growing like crazy. And all of a church growing like crazy. And all of a sudden, you know, like every other sudden, you know, like every other sudden, you know, like every other church, we were church, we were church, we were >> we were struggling. And I remember the >> we were struggling. And I remember the >> we were struggling. And I remember the day that uh you know, I burned out that day that uh you know, I burned out that day that uh you know, I burned out that afternoon. My children all came to our afternoon. My children all came to our afternoon. My children all came to our apartment. My wife and I were living apartment. My wife and I were living apartment. My wife and I were living downtown and my daughter reminded me of downtown and my daughter reminded me of downtown and my daughter reminded me of this the other day and she said, "Dad, this the other day and she said, "Dad, this the other day and she said, "Dad, do you know what you said to me that do you know what you said to me that do you know what you said to me that day?" And I said, "No." She said, "Dad, day?" And I said, "No." She said, "Dad, day?" And I said, "No." She said, "Dad, you said to me, what are people going to you said to me, what are people going to you said to me, what are people going to think think think >> of me that this happened to me?" And >> of me that this happened to me?" And >> of me that this happened to me?" And that was a loss that I wasn't, you know, that was a loss that I wasn't, you know, that was a loss that I wasn't, you know, I wasn't able to really properly wrap my I wasn't able to really properly wrap my I wasn't able to really properly wrap my head around. I was more concerned about head around. I was more concerned about head around. I was more concerned about how this was going to look with me as, how this was going to look with me as, how this was going to look with me as, you know, a Christian leader in our you know, a Christian leader in our you know, a Christian leader in our community. And and then I think one of community. And and then I think one of community. And and then I think one of the places that the anxiety came from as the places that the anxiety came from as the places that the anxiety came from as well was shame. Like one of the things well was shame. Like one of the things well was shame. Like one of the things the enemy I think came after me with was the enemy I think came after me with was the enemy I think came after me with was like you've been telling people here in like you've been telling people here in like you've been telling people here in York how to live for the, you know, the York how to live for the, you know, the York how to live for the, you know, the last 15 years and you let this happen to last 15 years and you let this happen to last 15 years and you let this happen to you.

you. you. >> Wow. And wow, I wrestled with that as >> Wow. And wow, I wrestled with that as >> Wow. And wow, I wrestled with that as well. And I so I think you know that well. And I so I think you know that well. And I so I think you know that that loss and worrying what people were that loss and worrying what people were that loss and worrying what people were concerned about or what they were concerned about or what they were concerned about or what they were thinking of me and then the shame of thinking of me and then the shame of thinking of me and then the shame of wrestling through that as a right wrestling through that as a right wrestling through that as a right >> senior pastor, you know, whose church >> senior pastor, you know, whose church >> senior pastor, you know, whose church had been top 100 churches, you know, had been top 100 churches, you know, had been top 100 churches, you know, right? I mean, I I taught church right? I mean, I I taught church right? I mean, I I taught church leadership and and biblical preaching at leadership and and biblical preaching at leadership and and biblical preaching at Lancaster Bible College and and this Lancaster Bible College and and this Lancaster Bible College and and this happened to me and and so I really happened to me and and so I really happened to me and and so I really wrestled with, you know, just the wrestled with, you know, just the wrestled with, you know, just the fallout of all that. fallout of all that. fallout of all that. >> What are people going to think Bob's >> What are people going to think Bob's >> What are people going to think Bob's daughter quoting him back to him is a daughter quoting him back to him is a daughter quoting him back to him is a part of this thing I just will not part of this thing I just will not part of this thing I just will not shake. Ungraved loss, it compounds. Loss shake. Ungraved loss, it compounds. Loss shake. Ungraved loss, it compounds. Loss is a part of your role. It's a part of is a part of your role. It's a part of is a part of your role. It's a part of my role. But what Bob learned the hard my role. But what Bob learned the hard my role. But what Bob learned the hard way is that shaking it off and just kind way is that shaking it off and just kind way is that shaking it off and just kind of moving on will cost you more in the of moving on will cost you more in the of moving on will cost you more in the long run than sitting with it and long run than sitting with it and long run than sitting with it and processing it. Charles Stone is up next.

processing it. Charles Stone is up next. processing it. Charles Stone is up next. He's a friend, a pastor, a counselor, He's a friend, a pastor, a counselor, He's a friend, a pastor, a counselor, and did his PhD on stress while he got and did his PhD on stress while he got and did his PhD on stress while he got diagnosed with three serious conditions diagnosed with three serious conditions diagnosed with three serious conditions in the same year. and we're going to in the same year. and we're going to in the same year. and we're going to focus on an easy kind of habit that he focus on an easy kind of habit that he focus on an easy kind of habit that he has installed or practice that he has has installed or practice that he has has installed or practice that he has installed that I think you could use in installed that I think you could use in installed that I think you could use in the midst of your processing of dealing the midst of your processing of dealing the midst of your processing of dealing with even those kinds of ungrerieved with even those kinds of ungrerieved with even those kinds of ungrerieved losses. Let's listen in on what Charles losses. Let's listen in on what Charles losses. Let's listen in on what Charles has to say today. has to say today. has to say today. >> Well, I kind of give thematically. One >> Well, I kind of give thematically. One >> Well, I kind of give thematically. One involves how we breathe. These are these involves how we breathe. These are these involves how we breathe. These are these are practices that can help us develop are practices that can help us develop are practices that can help us develop resilience. One has to do with how we resilience. One has to do with how we resilience. One has to do with how we breathe. breathe. breathe. >> Two have to deal with our emotions. One >> Two have to deal with our emotions. One >> Two have to deal with our emotions. One has to do with our thinking. One has to has to do with our thinking. One has to has to do with our thinking. One has to do with contemplative practices, you do with contemplative practices, you do with contemplative practices, you know, uh spiritual uh practices. know, uh spiritual uh practices. know, uh spiritual uh practices. >> One has to do with something called >> One has to do with something called >> One has to do with something called certainty. One has to do with gratitude. certainty. One has to do with gratitude. certainty. One has to do with gratitude. One has to do with relationships. And One has to do with relationships. And One has to do with relationships. And one has to do with sleep. one has to do with sleep. one has to do with sleep. >> So any of those I'm game for any of >> So any of those I'm game for any of >> So any of those I'm game for any of those that you feel like we ought to those that you feel like we ought to those that you feel like we ought to touch on one or two of them.

touch on one or two of them. touch on one or two of them. >> Well, what about uh maybe breathing? Why >> Well, what about uh maybe breathing? Why >> Well, what about uh maybe breathing? Why don't we start right at the top where don't we start right at the top where don't we start right at the top where you started um and and and then you you started um and and and then you you started um and and and then you know, we scratched the surface. There's know, we scratched the surface. There's know, we scratched the surface. There's a ton we could you could we obviously we a ton we could you could we obviously we a ton we could you could we obviously we want people to pick up a copy of the want people to pick up a copy of the want people to pick up a copy of the book, but we start with breathing. That book, but we start with breathing. That book, but we start with breathing. That might be kind of interesting. might be kind of interesting. might be kind of interesting. >> Yeah. Well, actually, this ended up >> Yeah. Well, actually, this ended up >> Yeah. Well, actually, this ended up being the first one because it's very being the first one because it's very being the first one because it's very easy to do. Now, if you I think around easy to do. Now, if you I think around easy to do. Now, if you I think around 75 times plus, you'll find the word 75 times plus, you'll find the word 75 times plus, you'll find the word breath or breathe in in scripture. In breath or breathe in in scripture. In breath or breathe in in scripture. In Genesis, God breathed into Adam. He Genesis, God breathed into Adam. He Genesis, God breathed into Adam. He became a living being. I think his early became a living being. I think his early became a living being. I think his early part of Acts, Jesus breathed on the part of Acts, Jesus breathed on the part of Acts, Jesus breathed on the early church, the Holy Spirit came. early church, the Holy Spirit came. early church, the Holy Spirit came. >> And then David uh the psalmist wrote, >> And then David uh the psalmist wrote, >> And then David uh the psalmist wrote, "Let everything that has breath praise "Let everything that has breath praise "Let everything that has breath praise the Lord." Now, here is the interesting the Lord." Now, here is the interesting the Lord." Now, here is the interesting neuroscience insight. neuroscience insight. neuroscience insight. >> Deep breathing activates a key set of >> Deep breathing activates a key set of >> Deep breathing activates a key set of nerves that come directly from my brain. nerves that come directly from my brain. nerves that come directly from my brain. It doesn't come from my spinal cord, but It doesn't come from my spinal cord, but It doesn't come from my spinal cord, but these are these are uh key nerves. these are these are uh key nerves. these are these are uh key nerves. They're in pairs. One of them is called They're in pairs. One of them is called They're in pairs. One of them is called the vagus nerve. Comes from the word the vagus nerve. Comes from the word the vagus nerve. Comes from the word vagrant. What does a vagrant do? It vagrant. What does a vagrant do? It vagrant. What does a vagrant do? It wanders around. So, this nerve wanders wanders around. So, this nerve wanders wanders around. So, this nerve wanders around our hollow organs, our heart, our around our hollow organs, our heart, our around our hollow organs, our heart, our lungs, our stomach. So, there's a lot of lungs, our stomach. So, there's a lot of lungs, our stomach. So, there's a lot of communication back and forth. Scientists communication back and forth. Scientists communication back and forth. Scientists have found that deep breathing, have found that deep breathing, have found that deep breathing, especially on the exhale, when you especially on the exhale, when you especially on the exhale, when you exhale a little longer, it actually exhale a little longer, it actually exhale a little longer, it actually engages this nerve which lowers the engages this nerve which lowers the engages this nerve which lowers the stress response. And here's here's why stress response. And here's here's why stress response. And here's here's why you practice it. Call it the sniff you practice it. Call it the sniff you practice it. Call it the sniff breath. Now, the actual term is a breath. Now, the actual term is a breath. Now, the actual term is a psychological sigh. But here's how it psychological sigh. But here's how it psychological sigh. But here's how it would work. When you're facing some would work. When you're facing some would work. When you're facing some stress, just breathe in, you know, full stress, just breathe in, you know, full stress, just breathe in, you know, full lungs, then a little more, lungs, then a little more, lungs, then a little more, >> hold a second or two, and then breathe >> hold a second or two, and then breathe >> hold a second or two, and then breathe out through your mouth.

out through your mouth. out through your mouth. Now on the out breath you want to be a Now on the out breath you want to be a Now on the out breath you want to be a little longer than the inb breath. Doing little longer than the inb breath. Doing little longer than the inb breath. Doing that three three or four or five times that three three or four or five times that three three or four or five times >> labs all around the country found it >> labs all around the country found it >> labs all around the country found it lowers the stress response. So that is a lowers the stress response. So that is a lowers the stress response. So that is a simple a portable tool you can take simple a portable tool you can take simple a portable tool you can take anybody can use anywhere. So yeah anybody can use anywhere. So yeah anybody can use anywhere. So yeah >> I love Charles. He's such a practical >> I love Charles. He's such a practical >> I love Charles. He's such a practical leader. Listen I'd pick one of those leader. Listen I'd pick one of those leader. Listen I'd pick one of those practices this week and really try to practices this week and really try to practices this week and really try to install it. But I love that he started install it. But I love that he started install it. But I love that he started with breath work because it's really the with breath work because it's really the with breath work because it's really the easiest one to start with. You can easiest one to start with. You can easiest one to start with. You can install it today. Literally, he gave you install it today. Literally, he gave you install it today. Literally, he gave you everything you need. But maybe look at everything you need. But maybe look at everything you need. But maybe look at the other ones. Pick up his book, Stress the other ones. Pick up his book, Stress the other ones. Pick up his book, Stress Less. Got a bunch in there. Well, coming Less. Got a bunch in there. Well, coming Less. Got a bunch in there. Well, coming up next, we've got Allan Holmes. He's up next, we've got Allan Holmes. He's up next, we've got Allan Holmes. He's been the senior pastor at Definition been the senior pastor at Definition been the senior pastor at Definition Church in Greensboro for 25 years. He Church in Greensboro for 25 years. He Church in Greensboro for 25 years. He has watched gifted leaders crash long has watched gifted leaders crash long has watched gifted leaders crash long enough that he's built a framework enough that he's built a framework enough that he's built a framework around this to understand it. Let's around this to understand it. Let's around this to understand it. Let's listen in to what Allan has to bring to listen in to what Allan has to bring to listen in to what Allan has to bring to this conversation. this conversation. this conversation. >> It's interesting when I one of the other >> It's interesting when I one of the other >> It's interesting when I one of the other real key moments for me as I went back real key moments for me as I went back real key moments for me as I went back to do my doctorate of ministry degree at to do my doctorate of ministry degree at to do my doctorate of ministry degree at Gordon Conwell in redemptive leadership.

Gordon Conwell in redemptive leadership. Gordon Conwell in redemptive leadership. And so much of what we were studying is And so much of what we were studying is And so much of what we were studying is how God works in the crisis in these how God works in the crisis in these how God works in the crisis in these pressure moments to, you know, expose pressure moments to, you know, expose pressure moments to, you know, expose the unfinished places in our character the unfinished places in our character the unfinished places in our character so that we can grow and become more like so that we can grow and become more like so that we can grow and become more like Jesus and therefore maximize our kingdom Jesus and therefore maximize our kingdom Jesus and therefore maximize our kingdom impact in the world. And one of my impact in the world. And one of my impact in the world. And one of my professors, Dr. Powers, he actually professors, Dr. Powers, he actually professors, Dr. Powers, he actually wrote a book called Redemptive wrote a book called Redemptive wrote a book called Redemptive Leadership. It's a simple little book Leadership. It's a simple little book Leadership. It's a simple little book but profound where he describes but profound where he describes but profound where he describes leadership development in five stages leadership development in five stages leadership development in five stages and stage one is is a skilled leader and stage one is is a skilled leader and stage one is is a skilled leader where you get a leadership role just where you get a leadership role just where you get a leadership role just based on your skill. So maybe the based on your skill. So maybe the based on your skill. So maybe the ability to preach and so they call you ability to preach and so they call you ability to preach and so they call you to be the pastor. That's how I became to be the pastor. That's how I became to be the pastor. That's how I became the pastor of my first church. I could the pastor of my first church. I could the pastor of my first church. I could preach. I hadn't done anything else but preach. I hadn't done anything else but preach. I hadn't done anything else but they let me be the pastor because I they let me be the pastor because I they let me be the pastor because I could preach. Mhm. could preach. Mhm. could preach. Mhm. >> And then the second stage is a principal >> And then the second stage is a principal >> And then the second stage is a principal leader where you begin to understand why leader where you begin to understand why leader where you begin to understand why you do what you do. you do what you do. you do what you do. >> But the third stage which is so >> But the third stage which is so >> But the third stage which is so important is the character stage. And in important is the character stage. And in important is the character stage. And in order for a leader to go through the order for a leader to go through the order for a leader to go through the character stage, God always uses a character stage, God always uses a character stage, God always uses a crisis to bring him into that stage. But crisis to bring him into that stage. But crisis to bring him into that stage. But when he comes into that stage, he has a when he comes into that stage, he has a when he comes into that stage, he has a choice choice choice >> in that stage. he can open his heart and >> in that stage. he can open his heart and >> in that stage. he can open his heart and allow God to do that deeper work or he allow God to do that deeper work or he allow God to do that deeper work or he can go back and hide behind his skills can go back and hide behind his skills can go back and hide behind his skills and principle. And that's what uh and principle. And that's what uh and principle. And that's what uh pastors do a lot of times. The reason pastors do a lot of times. The reason pastors do a lot of times. The reason you see this turnover every, you know, you see this turnover every, you know, you see this turnover every, you know, depending on what statistic you read, depending on what statistic you read, depending on what statistic you read, every two to four years, pastors are every two to four years, pastors are every two to four years, pastors are leaving churches is because they come

leaving churches is because they come leaving churches is because they come into a church and they have this into a church and they have this into a church and they have this honeymoon season and then all of a honeymoon season and then all of a honeymoon season and then all of a sudden there's a crisis that exposes sudden there's a crisis that exposes sudden there's a crisis that exposes some things and they start floating some things and they start floating some things and they start floating their resume and hiding behind their their resume and hiding behind their their resume and hiding behind their skill rather than allowing God to deal skill rather than allowing God to deal skill rather than allowing God to deal with their character so that they can with their character so that they can with their character so that they can advance and become a a transformative, advance and become a a transformative, advance and become a a transformative, redemptive leader. redemptive leader. redemptive leader. So, I think one of the things that's So, I think one of the things that's So, I think one of the things that's been so true for us is we've just tried been so true for us is we've just tried been so true for us is we've just tried to say to people to say to people to say to people >> when there's a crisis, don't panic, >> when there's a crisis, don't panic, >> when there's a crisis, don't panic, don't run away, see it as an don't run away, see it as an don't run away, see it as an opportunity. opportunity. opportunity. In fact, I ended up doing my uh In fact, I ended up doing my uh In fact, I ended up doing my uh dissertation on uh the idea that if we dissertation on uh the idea that if we dissertation on uh the idea that if we could teach this model to leaders that could teach this model to leaders that could teach this model to leaders that it would cause them to respond it would cause them to respond it would cause them to respond differently in the crisis, instead of differently in the crisis, instead of differently in the crisis, instead of running for from it, they would run to running for from it, they would run to running for from it, they would run to it and open their heart and God could it and open their heart and God could it and open their heart and God could use that to really propel them into use that to really propel them into use that to really propel them into their redemptive future. And the their redemptive future. And the their redemptive future. And the research said that was true. And so research said that was true. And so research said that was true. And so we've tried to really work that in our we've tried to really work that in our we've tried to really work that in our culture to understand when something culture to understand when something culture to understand when something goes wrong, don't run away and don't goes wrong, don't run away and don't goes wrong, don't run away and don't hide.

hide. hide. >> Let's run into it and trust God to meet >> Let's run into it and trust God to meet >> Let's run into it and trust God to meet us there so that this thing God works us there so that this thing God works us there so that this thing God works redemptively to use it for your benefit redemptively to use it for your benefit redemptively to use it for your benefit and to launch you into your future. And and to launch you into your future. And and to launch you into your future. And because that's been our culture, people because that's been our culture, people because that's been our culture, people have stuck around. I mean, my lead team, have stuck around. I mean, my lead team, have stuck around. I mean, my lead team, Rick, has been here 25 years. He was Rick, has been here 25 years. He was Rick, has been here 25 years. He was he's actually here two Sundays longer he's actually here two Sundays longer he's actually here two Sundays longer than I've been here. than I've been here. than I've been here. Eric's been here 24 years. Jonathan's Eric's been here 24 years. Jonathan's Eric's been here 24 years. Jonathan's been here 19 years. Chelsea's been here been here 19 years. Chelsea's been here been here 19 years. Chelsea's been here almost for this year will be 14 years. almost for this year will be 14 years. almost for this year will be 14 years. Steve's been here 10 years. I mean, so Steve's been here 10 years. I mean, so Steve's been here 10 years. I mean, so they've just been here a long long long they've just been here a long long long they've just been here a long long long time. And that but that's why is that time. And that but that's why is that time. And that but that's why is that they've seen these moments and we've they've seen these moments and we've they've seen these moments and we've helped them to find God in it so that it helped them to find God in it so that it helped them to find God in it so that it actually works for us instead of against actually works for us instead of against actually works for us instead of against us. us. us. >> Allan walked us through the five stages. >> Allan walked us through the five stages. >> Allan walked us through the five stages. is the third one he talked about is is the third one he talked about is is the third one he talked about is character. And that's really where I character. And that's really where I character. And that's really where I think you and I our greatest test is at. think you and I our greatest test is at. think you and I our greatest test is at. And this is where we meet our crisis. Uh And this is where we meet our crisis. Uh And this is where we meet our crisis. Uh you should go back and listen to Allan's you should go back and listen to Allan's you should go back and listen to Allan's episode. Super helpful. Coming up next episode. Super helpful. Coming up next episode. Super helpful. Coming up next for our last part of the conversation for our last part of the conversation for our last part of the conversation today is a friend of mine, Scott Landry.

today is a friend of mine, Scott Landry. today is a friend of mine, Scott Landry. He's the senior pastor of The Bridge He's the senior pastor of The Bridge He's the senior pastor of The Bridge near Ottawa. Uh he's been on the podcast near Ottawa. Uh he's been on the podcast near Ottawa. Uh he's been on the podcast before. Next is a clip from a book that before. Next is a clip from a book that before. Next is a clip from a book that was coming out uh or that has come out was coming out uh or that has come out was coming out uh or that has come out called The Fight. And it's the moment called The Fight. And it's the moment called The Fight. And it's the moment that he lost everything and that he was that he lost everything and that he was that he lost everything and that he was alone in a house in the Northwest alone in a house in the Northwest alone in a house in the Northwest Territory. The reason why I I wanted Territory. The reason why I I wanted Territory. The reason why I I wanted this on is because I think Scott models this on is because I think Scott models this on is because I think Scott models for you and models for me an open for you and models for me an open for you and models for me an open transparency with ourselves, with our transparency with ourselves, with our transparency with ourselves, with our people. That is something that I think people. That is something that I think people. That is something that I think you and I should live with our live with you and I should live with our live with you and I should live with our live with and and should think through how can we and and should think through how can we and and should think through how can we be this transparent with the people be this transparent with the people be this transparent with the people around us. Heads up, this is a heavy around us. Heads up, this is a heavy around us. Heads up, this is a heavy clip and it's worth every second of your clip and it's worth every second of your clip and it's worth every second of your attention to lean in and hear what Scott attention to lean in and hear what Scott attention to lean in and hear what Scott shares. I hope that's a powerful moment shares. I hope that's a powerful moment shares. I hope that's a powerful moment in the book because it was it's in the book because it was it's in the book because it was it's genuinely the most powerful moment in my genuinely the most powerful moment in my genuinely the most powerful moment in my life. And this was this was kind of at life. And this was this was kind of at life. And this was this was kind of at the crescendo of my my breaking point. the crescendo of my my breaking point. the crescendo of my my breaking point. So after my marriage and my my my life So after my marriage and my my my life So after my marriage and my my my life gen specifically falling apart and I gen specifically falling apart and I gen specifically falling apart and I kind of lived in a place of isolation. I kind of lived in a place of isolation. I kind of lived in a place of isolation. I was living in in the north Canadian was living in in the north Canadian was living in in the north Canadian north and I was yeah I I was lost. I was north and I was yeah I I was lost. I was north and I was yeah I I was lost. I was I was angry like I had so much anger and I was angry like I had so much anger and I was angry like I had so much anger and it was so yeah I talk about in the book it was so yeah I talk about in the book it was so yeah I talk about in the book and I was angry and ultimately I was and I was angry and ultimately I was and I was angry and ultimately I was angry at myself but I was also angry at angry at myself but I was also angry at angry at myself but I was also angry at God and because even after again making God and because even after again making God and because even after again making a mess of my own life like he didn't a mess of my own life like he didn't a mess of my own life like he didn't make a mess of my life nobody made the make a mess of my life nobody made the make a mess of my life nobody made the mess in my life I made the mess in my

mess in my life I made the mess in my mess in my life I made the mess in my life and but then after that I was life and but then after that I was life and but then after that I was trying to do everything right and I was trying to do everything right and I was trying to do everything right and I was trying to you know do the right thing do trying to you know do the right thing do trying to you know do the right thing do the right thing and I was like God when the right thing and I was like God when the right thing and I was like God when are you going to start intervening on my are you going to start intervening on my are you going to start intervening on my behalf. And so, you know, being the the behalf. And so, you know, being the the behalf. And so, you know, being the the preacher that that I am, I was like, I preacher that that I am, I was like, I preacher that that I am, I was like, I got all the Bible verses that tell me got all the Bible verses that tell me got all the Bible verses that tell me that you're going to like now is you're that you're going to like now is you're that you're going to like now is you're going to do the redemptive thing. You're going to do the redemptive thing. You're going to do the redemptive thing. You're going to show up. You're going to move. going to show up. You're going to move. going to show up. You're going to move. You're going to fix. You're going to You're going to fix. You're going to You're going to fix. You're going to redeem. You're going to restore. You're redeem. You're going to restore. You're redeem. You're going to restore. You're going to repair. You're going to do all going to repair. You're going to do all going to repair. You're going to do all the Rwords. the Rwords. the Rwords. >> And and nothing was happening. Like, it >> And and nothing was happening. Like, it >> And and nothing was happening. Like, it was like and and it was almost as if I was like and and it was almost as if I was like and and it was almost as if I and I literally heard nothing. and I literally heard nothing. and I literally heard nothing. >> And I'd like to say I didn't feel >> And I'd like to say I didn't feel >> And I'd like to say I didn't feel anything, but I did. It was just this anything, but I did. It was just this anything, but I did. It was just this this anger that was welling up inside of this anger that was welling up inside of this anger that was welling up inside of me like a like a pot boiling and me like a like a pot boiling and me like a like a pot boiling and eventually it just I just became eventually it just I just became eventually it just I just became unhinged like I was alone and I was unhinged like I was alone and I was unhinged like I was alone and I was completely isolated. I was in this you completely isolated. I was in this you completely isolated. I was in this you know empty house and I just started know empty house and I just started know empty house and I just started crying out like and yelling out and I crying out like and yelling out and I crying out like and yelling out and I threw threw things. I I used words I've threw threw things. I I used words I've threw threw things. I I used words I've I'm ashamed to admit I used like I mean I'm ashamed to admit I used like I mean I'm ashamed to admit I used like I mean I was as unhinged as could possibly I I was as unhinged as could possibly I I was as unhinged as could possibly I was like I got if I saw you face to face was like I got if I saw you face to face was like I got if I saw you face to face I would give you the f like I told him I would give you the f like I told him I would give you the f like I told him all this stuff and and what I found in all this stuff and and what I found in all this stuff and and what I found in that moment was like and I again I talk that moment was like and I again I talk that moment was like and I again I talk about in the book but like I I yelled um about in the book but like I I yelled um about in the book but like I I yelled um God I don't even believe in you anymore.

God I don't even believe in you anymore. God I don't even believe in you anymore. I'm done. Like I I I like I don't I I'm done. Like I I I like I don't I I'm done. Like I I I like I don't I don't believe you've promised me that don't believe you've promised me that don't believe you've promised me that you would never leave me. you would you would never leave me. you would you would never leave me. you would never forsake me. And that's exactly never forsake me. And that's exactly never forsake me. And that's exactly what you've done. I've told people that what you've done. I've told people that what you've done. I've told people that you would never leave them and forsake you would never leave them and forsake you would never leave them and forsake them. And yet you've done that to me. them. And yet you've done that to me. them. And yet you've done that to me. You are you are dead to me. I don't You are you are dead to me. I don't You are you are dead to me. I don't believe in you anymore. And I even now I believe in you anymore. And I even now I believe in you anymore. And I even now I still feel this and I'm just talking still feel this and I'm just talking still feel this and I'm just talking about it, but like this is and this is I about it, but like this is and this is I about it, but like this is and this is I know some people are going to roll their know some people are going to roll their know some people are going to roll their eyes at this, but like genuinely when I eyes at this, but like genuinely when I eyes at this, but like genuinely when I heard myself say that, I felt this like over me, over my house. It was like this over me, over my house. It was like this eerie like pause and I heard as if I've eerie like pause and I heard as if I've eerie like pause and I heard as if I've ever heard the voice of God, I heard a ever heard the voice of God, I heard a ever heard the voice of God, I heard a voice say, "Well, then who are you voice say, "Well, then who are you voice say, "Well, then who are you yelling at?" yelling at?" yelling at?" And it was like this like And it was like this like And it was like this like >> beautiful. >> beautiful. >> beautiful. >> And in that moment, it was like it my >> And in that moment, it was like it my >> And in that moment, it was like it my anger was it wasn't my degree. It wasn't anger was it wasn't my degree. It wasn't anger was it wasn't my degree. It wasn't my Bible. It was it was my anger was my my Bible. It was it was my anger was my my Bible. It was it was my anger was my evidence that God was present right then evidence that God was present right then evidence that God was present right then and right there. And because my anger and right there. And because my anger and right there. And because my anger was directed at him was directed at him was directed at him and he knew that I was angry with him and he knew that I was angry with him and he knew that I was angry with him and he met me at the place of my anger and he met me at the place of my anger and he met me at the place of my anger and he was waiting and this is the part and he was waiting and this is the part and he was waiting and this is the part that I still that I still that I still I can't do this what what's in my head I can't do this what what's in my head I can't do this what what's in my head and in my heart justice but it was God and in my heart justice but it was God and in my heart justice but it was God was saying I've been waiting for you at was saying I've been waiting for you at was saying I've been waiting for you at this place your whole life.

this place your whole life. this place your whole life. >> Wow. You you have been hiding from this >> Wow. You you have been hiding from this >> Wow. You you have been hiding from this anger from your childhood, from your anger from your childhood, from your anger from your childhood, from your young adulthood, and I've been waiting young adulthood, and I've been waiting young adulthood, and I've been waiting for you to meet me here at your anger. for you to meet me here at your anger. for you to meet me here at your anger. >> And I' I've wanted you to know that I >> And I' I've wanted you to know that I >> And I' I've wanted you to know that I would be here waiting for you. And if would be here waiting for you. And if would be here waiting for you. And if you met me on the top of the tallest you met me on the top of the tallest you met me on the top of the tallest mountain, and if you look me face to mountain, and if you look me face to mountain, and if you look me face to face, and if you were to give me the face, and if you were to give me the face, and if you were to give me the finger, you would find me there waiting finger, you would find me there waiting finger, you would find me there waiting because I am waiting at who you really because I am waiting at who you really because I am waiting at who you really are, not who you're pretending to be. are, not who you're pretending to be. are, not who you're pretending to be. and everyone around you, you've got them and everyone around you, you've got them and everyone around you, you've got them fooled and you're a used car salesman fooled and you're a used car salesman fooled and you're a used car salesman and you can spin the Bible verses and and you can spin the Bible verses and and you can spin the Bible verses and you can do all that other stuff, but I you can do all that other stuff, but I you can do all that other stuff, but I know who you really are. And I'm waiting know who you really are. And I'm waiting know who you really are. And I'm waiting for you to finally be honest with for you to finally be honest with for you to finally be honest with yourself about who you really are. And yourself about who you really are. And yourself about who you really are. And now that you finally are, now we can do now that you finally are, now we can do now that you finally are, now we can do something about that together. And that something about that together. And that something about that together. And that was the moment that God truly revealed was the moment that God truly revealed was the moment that God truly revealed himself to me. And that's when I for the himself to me. And that's when I for the himself to me. And that's when I for the first time in my life truly discovered first time in my life truly discovered first time in my life truly discovered who I was. And yeah, that that's the who I was. And yeah, that that's the who I was. And yeah, that that's the moment that I hope anybody who ever moment that I hope anybody who ever moment that I hope anybody who ever meets me or talks to me or listens to me meets me or talks to me or listens to me meets me or talks to me or listens to me or reads any like that's the part that I or reads any like that's the part that I or reads any like that's the part that I long for people to have before it costs long for people to have before it costs long for people to have before it costs them like it costs me.

them like it costs me. them like it costs me. >> I love that moment when Scott said he >> I love that moment when Scott said he >> I love that moment when Scott said he heard who are you yelling at. Man, that heard who are you yelling at. Man, that heard who are you yelling at. Man, that sticks with you. Listen, four different sticks with you. Listen, four different sticks with you. Listen, four different stories. is what I'm trying to do is stories. is what I'm trying to do is stories. is what I'm trying to do is raise for you the question about the raise for you the question about the raise for you the question about the inner life of what's going on at your inner life of what's going on at your inner life of what's going on at your church with the senior leaders around church with the senior leaders around church with the senior leaders around you. What if you were to go back and you. What if you were to go back and you. What if you were to go back and look at these four conversations and look at these four conversations and look at these four conversations and maybe say, "Okay, this one might be the maybe say, "Okay, this one might be the maybe say, "Okay, this one might be the best for us to lead a conversation with best for us to lead a conversation with best for us to lead a conversation with and send them one of those. Send your and send them one of those. Send your and send them one of those. Send your team one of those episodes and say, team one of those episodes and say, team one of those episodes and say, "Hey, I'd love for us to take some time "Hey, I'd love for us to take some time "Hey, I'd love for us to take some time this summer. Maybe you go and relax on a this summer. Maybe you go and relax on a this summer. Maybe you go and relax on a back deck somewhere or jump in back deck somewhere or jump in back deck somewhere or jump in somebody's boat or uh spend a little somebody's boat or uh spend a little somebody's boat or uh spend a little extra time at the office because there extra time at the office because there extra time at the office because there is a little bit of slack at this time of is a little bit of slack at this time of is a little bit of slack at this time of year and ask the question, hey, what's year and ask the question, hey, what's year and ask the question, hey, what's going on on the inside of us as leaders going on on the inside of us as leaders going on on the inside of us as leaders at the church? How are we developing and at the church? How are we developing and at the church? How are we developing and how could this conversation help us ask how could this conversation help us ask how could this conversation help us ask some different questions than we some different questions than we some different questions than we normally do in our team meetings? All normally do in our team meetings? All normally do in our team meetings? All the links to those four conversations the links to those four conversations the links to those four conversations are down below. Uh thanks for sticking are down below. Uh thanks for sticking are down below. Uh thanks for sticking through this this entire conversation. I through this this entire conversation. I through this this entire conversation. I know there was a lot today. Uh but we'll know there was a lot today. Uh but we'll know there was a lot today. Uh but we'll see you next week with our regularly see you next week with our regularly see you next week with our regularly scheduled programs kind of back to what scheduled programs kind of back to what scheduled programs kind of back to what we normally do here at Unseminary.

we normally do here at Unseminary. we normally do here at Unseminary. Thanks for being a part of the podcast. Thanks for being a part of the podcast. Thanks for being a part of the podcast. Thanks for doing what you're doing, Thanks for doing what you're doing, Thanks for doing what you're doing, including the hard work of the inner including the hard work of the inner including the hard work of the inner life to lead your people in a way that life to lead your people in a way that life to lead your people in a way that makes a huge difference. Thanks for makes a huge difference. Thanks for makes a huge difference. Thanks for being engaged in the local church. Take being engaged in the local church. Take being engaged in the local church. Take care, friends.