Plato's Republic Book 4

book 4 part 1 of the Republic by Plato book 4 part 1 of the Republic by Plato this LibriVox recording is in the public this LibriVox recording is in the public this LibriVox recording is in the public domain read by Bob Neufeld domain read by Bob Neufeld domain read by Bob Neufeld here are the mantas interposed a here are the mantas interposed a here are the mantas interposed a question how would you answer Socrates question how would you answer Socrates question how would you answer Socrates said he if a person were to say that you said he if a person were to say that you said he if a person were to say that you are making these people miserable and are making these people miserable and are making these people miserable and that they are the cause of their own that they are the cause of their own that they are the cause of their own unhappiness the city in fact belongs to unhappiness the city in fact belongs to unhappiness the city in fact belongs to them but they are none the better for it them but they are none the better for it them but they are none the better for it whereas other men acquire lands and whereas other men acquire lands and whereas other men acquire lands and build large and handsome houses and have build large and handsome houses and have build large and handsome houses and have everything handsome about them offering everything handsome about them offering everything handsome about them offering sacrifices to the gods on their own sacrifices to the gods on their own sacrifices to the gods on their own account and a practising hospitality account and a practising hospitality account and a practising hospitality moreover as you were saying just now moreover as you were saying just now moreover as you were saying just now they have gold and silver and all that they have gold and silver and all that they have gold and silver and all that as usual among the favourites of fortune as usual among the favourites of fortune as usual among the favourites of fortune but our poor citizens are no better than but our poor citizens are no better than but our poor citizens are no better than mercenaries who are quartered in the mercenaries who are quartered in the mercenaries who are quartered in the city and are always mounting guard yes I city and are always mounting guard yes I city and are always mounting guard yes I said and you may add if they are only said and you may add if they are only said and you may add if they are only fed and not paid in addition to their fed and not paid in addition to their fed and not paid in addition to their food like other men and therefore they food like other men and therefore they food like other men and therefore they cannot SIF they would take a journey of cannot SIF they would take a journey of cannot SIF they would take a journey of pleasure they have no money to spend on pleasure they have no money to spend on pleasure they have no money to spend on a mistress or on any luxurious fancy a mistress or on any luxurious fancy a mistress or on any luxurious fancy which as the world goes is thought to be which as the world goes is thought to be which as the world goes is thought to be happiness and many other accusations of happiness and many other accusations of happiness and many other accusations of the same nature might be added but said the same nature might be added but said the same nature might be added but said he let us suppose all this to be he let us suppose all this to be he let us suppose all this to be included in the charge you mean to ask I included in the charge you mean to ask I included in the charge you mean to ask I said what will be our answer said what will be our answer said what will be our answer yes if we proceed along the old path my

yes if we proceed along the old path my yes if we proceed along the old path my belief I said is that we shall find the belief I said is that we shall find the belief I said is that we shall find the answer and our answer will be that even answer and our answer will be that even answer and our answer will be that even as they are our guardians may very as they are our guardians may very as they are our guardians may very likely be the happiest of men but our likely be the happiest of men but our likely be the happiest of men but our aim in founding the state was not the aim in founding the state was not the aim in founding the state was not the disproportionate happiness of any one disproportionate happiness of any one disproportionate happiness of any one class but the greatest happiness of the class but the greatest happiness of the class but the greatest happiness of the whole we thought that in a state which whole we thought that in a state which whole we thought that in a state which is ordered with a view to the good of is ordered with a view to the good of is ordered with a view to the good of the whole we should be most likely to the whole we should be most likely to the whole we should be most likely to find justice and having found them we find justice and having found them we find justice and having found them we might then decide which of the two is might then decide which of the two is might then decide which of the two is the happier but presence I take it we the happier but presence I take it we the happier but presence I take it we are fashioning the happy state not are fashioning the happy state not are fashioning the happy state not piecemeal or with a view of making a few piecemeal or with a view of making a few piecemeal or with a view of making a few happy citizens but as a whole and happy citizens but as a whole and happy citizens but as a whole and by-and-by we will proceed to view the by-and-by we will proceed to view the by-and-by we will proceed to view the opposite kind of state suppose that we opposite kind of state suppose that we opposite kind of state suppose that we were painting a statue and were painting a statue and were painting a statue and someone came up to us and said why do someone came up to us and said why do someone came up to us and said why do you not put the most beautiful colors on you not put the most beautiful colors on you not put the most beautiful colors on the most beautiful parts of the body the the most beautiful parts of the body the the most beautiful parts of the body the eyes ought to be purple but you have eyes ought to be purple but you have eyes ought to be purple but you have made them black to him we might fairly made them black to him we might fairly made them black to him we might fairly answer sir you would not surely have us answer sir you would not surely have us answer sir you would not surely have us beautify the eyes to such a degree that beautify the eyes to such a degree that beautify the eyes to such a degree that they are no longer eyes consider rather they are no longer eyes consider rather they are no longer eyes consider rather whether by giving this or the other whether by giving this or the other whether by giving this or the other features there do proportion we make the features there do proportion we make the features there do proportion we make the whole beautiful and so I say to you do whole beautiful and so I say to you do whole beautiful and so I say to you do not compel us to assign to the Guardians not compel us to assign to the Guardians not compel us to assign to the Guardians a sort of happiness which will make them a sort of happiness which will make them a sort of happiness which will make them anything but Guardians for we too can anything but Guardians for we too can anything but Guardians for we too can close our husbandmen in royal apparel close our husbandmen in royal apparel close our husbandmen in royal apparel and set crowns of gold on their heads

and set crowns of gold on their heads and set crowns of gold on their heads and bid them till the ground as much as and bid them till the ground as much as and bid them till the ground as much as they like and no more our Potter's also they like and no more our Potter's also they like and no more our Potter's also might be allowed to repose on couches might be allowed to repose on couches might be allowed to repose on couches and feast by the fireside passing round and feast by the fireside passing round and feast by the fireside passing round the wine cup while their wheel is the wine cup while their wheel is the wine cup while their wheel is conveniently at hand and working at conveniently at hand and working at conveniently at hand and working at pottery only as much as they like and pottery only as much as they like and pottery only as much as they like and this way we might make every class happy this way we might make every class happy this way we might make every class happy and then as you imagine the whole state and then as you imagine the whole state and then as you imagine the whole state would be happy but do not put this idea would be happy but do not put this idea would be happy but do not put this idea into our heads for if we listen to you into our heads for if we listen to you into our heads for if we listen to you the husbandmen will be no longer a the husbandmen will be no longer a the husbandmen will be no longer a husbandmen the Potter won't cease to be husbandmen the Potter won't cease to be husbandmen the Potter won't cease to be a Potter and no one will have the a Potter and no one will have the a Potter and no one will have the character of any distinct class in the character of any distinct class in the character of any distinct class in the state now this is not of much state now this is not of much state now this is not of much consequence where the corruption of consequence where the corruption of consequence where the corruption of society and pretension to be what you society and pretension to be what you society and pretension to be what you are not is confined to cobblers but when are not is confined to cobblers but when are not is confined to cobblers but when the guardians of the laws and of the the guardians of the laws and of the the guardians of the laws and of the government are only seeming and not real government are only seeming and not real government are only seeming and not real Guardians then see how they turn the Guardians then see how they turn the Guardians then see how they turn the state upside down and on the other hand state upside down and on the other hand state upside down and on the other hand they alone have the power of giving they alone have the power of giving they alone have the power of giving order and happiness to the state we mean order and happiness to the state we mean order and happiness to the state we mean our guardians to be true saviors and not our guardians to be true saviors and not our guardians to be true saviors and not the Destroyers of the state whereas our the Destroyers of the state whereas our the Destroyers of the state whereas our opponent is thinking of peasants and a opponent is thinking of peasants and a opponent is thinking of peasants and a festival who are enjoying a life of festival who are enjoying a life of festival who are enjoying a life of revelry not of citizens who are doing revelry not of citizens who are doing revelry not of citizens who are doing their duty to the state but if so we their duty to the state but if so we their duty to the state but if so we mean different things but he is speaking mean different things but he is speaking mean different things but he is speaking of something which is not a state then of something which is not a state then of something which is not a state then therefore we must consider whether in therefore we must consider whether in therefore we must consider whether in appointing our Guardians we would look

appointing our Guardians we would look appointing our Guardians we would look to their greatest happiness individual to their greatest happiness individual to their greatest happiness individual or whether this principle of happiness or whether this principle of happiness or whether this principle of happiness does not rather reside in the state as a does not rather reside in the state as a does not rather reside in the state as a whole but if the latter be the truth whole but if the latter be the truth whole but if the latter be the truth then the Guardians and auxiliaries and then the Guardians and auxiliaries and then the Guardians and auxiliaries and all others equal with them must be all others equal with them must be all others equal with them must be compelled or induced to do their own compelled or induced to do their own compelled or induced to do their own work in the best way and thus the whole work in the best way and thus the whole work in the best way and thus the whole state will grow up in a noble order and state will grow up in a noble order and state will grow up in a noble order and the several classes will receive the the several classes will receive the the several classes will receive the proportion of happiness which nature proportion of happiness which nature proportion of happiness which nature assigns to them I think that you are assigns to them I think that you are assigns to them I think that you are quite right I wonder whether you will quite right I wonder whether you will quite right I wonder whether you will agree with another remark which occurs agree with another remark which occurs agree with another remark which occurs to me what might that be there seem to to me what might that be there seem to to me what might that be there seem to be two causes of the deterioration of be two causes of the deterioration of be two causes of the deterioration of the Arts who what are they the Arts who what are they the Arts who what are they wealth I said and poverty how do they wealth I said and poverty how do they wealth I said and poverty how do they act the process is as follows act the process is as follows act the process is as follows when a Potter becomes rich will he think when a Potter becomes rich will he think when a Potter becomes rich will he think you any longer take the same pains with you any longer take the same pains with you any longer take the same pains with his art certainly not he will grow more his art certainly not he will grow more his art certainly not he will grow more and more indolent and careless very true and more indolent and careless very true and more indolent and careless very true and the result will be that he becomes a and the result will be that he becomes a and the result will be that he becomes a worse Potter yes he greatly deteriorates worse Potter yes he greatly deteriorates worse Potter yes he greatly deteriorates but on the other hand if he has no money but on the other hand if he has no money but on the other hand if he has no money and cannot provide himself with tools or and cannot provide himself with tools or and cannot provide himself with tools or instruments he will not work equally instruments he will not work equally instruments he will not work equally well himself nor will he teach his sons well himself nor will he teach his sons well himself nor will he teach his sons or apprentices to work equally well or apprentices to work equally well or apprentices to work equally well certainly not then under the influence certainly not then under the influence certainly not then under the influence either of poverty or of wealth workmen

either of poverty or of wealth workmen either of poverty or of wealth workmen and their work are equally liable to and their work are equally liable to and their work are equally liable to degenerate that is evident here then is degenerate that is evident here then is degenerate that is evident here then is a discovery of new evils I said against a discovery of new evils I said against a discovery of new evils I said against which the guardians will have to watch which the guardians will have to watch which the guardians will have to watch or they will creep into the city or they will creep into the city or they will creep into the city unobserved what evils wealth I said and unobserved what evils wealth I said and unobserved what evils wealth I said and poverty the one is the parent of luxury poverty the one is the parent of luxury poverty the one is the parent of luxury and indolence and the other of meanness and indolence and the other of meanness and indolence and the other of meanness and viciousness and both of this content and viciousness and both of this content and viciousness and both of this content that is very true they replied but still that is very true they replied but still that is very true they replied but still I should like to know Socrates how our I should like to know Socrates how our I should like to know Socrates how our city will be able to go to war city will be able to go to war city will be able to go to war especially against an enemy who is rich especially against an enemy who is rich especially against an enemy who is rich and powerful and powerful and powerful if deprived of the sinews of war there if deprived of the sinews of war there if deprived of the sinews of war there would certainly be a would certainly be a would certainly be a difficult er replied in going to war difficult er replied in going to war difficult er replied in going to war with one such enemy but there is no with one such enemy but there is no with one such enemy but there is no difficulty where there are two of them difficulty where there are two of them difficulty where there are two of them how so we asked in the first place I how so we asked in the first place I how so we asked in the first place I said if we have to fight our side will said if we have to fight our side will said if we have to fight our side will be trained warriors fighting against an be trained warriors fighting against an be trained warriors fighting against an army of rich men well that is true they army of rich men well that is true they army of rich men well that is true they said and do you not suppose Atta Montes said and do you not suppose Atta Montes said and do you not suppose Atta Montes that a single boxer who is perfect in that a single boxer who is perfect in that a single boxer who is perfect in his art would easily be a match for two his art would easily be a match for two his art would easily be a match for two stout and well-to-do gentlemen who were stout and well-to-do gentlemen who were stout and well-to-do gentlemen who were not boxers hardly if they came upon him not boxers hardly if they came upon him not boxers hardly if they came upon him at once what now I said if we were able at once what now I said if we were able at once what now I said if we were able to run away and then turn and strike at to run away and then turn and strike at to run away and then turn and strike at the one who first came up and supposing the one who first came up and supposing the one who first came up and supposing he were to do this several times under he were to do this several times under he were to do this several times under the heat of a scorching Sun mighty not the heat of a scorching Sun mighty not the heat of a scorching Sun mighty not being an expert overturned more than one

being an expert overturned more than one being an expert overturned more than one stout personage certainly he said there stout personage certainly he said there stout personage certainly he said there would be nothing wonderful in that and would be nothing wonderful in that and would be nothing wonderful in that and yet rich men probably have a greater yet rich men probably have a greater yet rich men probably have a greater superiority in the science and practice superiority in the science and practice superiority in the science and practice of boxing than they have in military of boxing than they have in military of boxing than they have in military qualities likely enough then we may qualities likely enough then we may qualities likely enough then we may assume that our athletes will be able to assume that our athletes will be able to assume that our athletes will be able to fight with two or three times their own fight with two or three times their own fight with two or three times their own number I agree with you but I think number I agree with you but I think number I agree with you but I think you're right and supposing that before you're right and supposing that before you're right and supposing that before engaging our citizens send an embassy to engaging our citizens send an embassy to engaging our citizens send an embassy to one of the two cities telling them what one of the two cities telling them what one of the two cities telling them what is the truth silver and gold we neither is the truth silver and gold we neither is the truth silver and gold we neither have nor are permitted to have but you have nor are permitted to have but you have nor are permitted to have but you may do you therefore come and help us in may do you therefore come and help us in may do you therefore come and help us in war and take the spoils of the other war and take the spoils of the other war and take the spoils of the other city who on hearing these words would city who on hearing these words would city who on hearing these words would choose to fight against lead wiry dogs choose to fight against lead wiry dogs choose to fight against lead wiry dogs rather than with the dogs on their side rather than with the dogs on their side rather than with the dogs on their side against fat and tender sheep that is not against fat and tender sheep that is not against fat and tender sheep that is not likely and yet there might be a danger likely and yet there might be a danger likely and yet there might be a danger to the poor state if the wealth of many to the poor state if the wealth of many to the poor state if the wealth of many states were to be gathered into one but states were to be gathered into one but states were to be gathered into one but how simple of you to use the term state how simple of you to use the term state how simple of you to use the term state at all of any but our own why so you are at all of any but our own why so you are at all of any but our own why so you are to speak of other states in the plural to speak of other states in the plural to speak of other states in the plural number not one of them is a city but number not one of them is a city but number not one of them is a city but many cities as they say in the game for many cities as they say in the game for many cities as they say in the game for indeed any city however small is in fact indeed any city however small is in fact indeed any city however small is in fact divided into two one the city of the divided into two one the city of the divided into two one the city of the poor the other of the poor the other of the poor the other of the these are at war with one another and in these are at war with one another and in these are at war with one another and in either there are many smaller divisions

either there are many smaller divisions either there are many smaller divisions and you would be all together beside the and you would be all together beside the and you would be all together beside the mark if you treated them all as a single mark if you treated them all as a single mark if you treated them all as a single state but if you deal with them as many state but if you deal with them as many state but if you deal with them as many and give the wealth or power or persons and give the wealth or power or persons and give the wealth or power or persons of one to the others you will always of one to the others you will always of one to the others you will always have a great many friends but not many have a great many friends but not many have a great many friends but not many enemies and your state while the wise enemies and your state while the wise enemies and your state while the wise order which has now been prescribed order which has now been prescribed order which has now been prescribed continues to prevail in her will be the continues to prevail in her will be the continues to prevail in her will be the greatest of states I do not mean to say greatest of states I do not mean to say greatest of states I do not mean to say in reputation or appearance but in deed in reputation or appearance but in deed in reputation or appearance but in deed and truth though she'd number not more and truth though she'd number not more and truth though she'd number not more than a thousand defenders a single state than a thousand defenders a single state than a thousand defenders a single state which is her equal you will hardly find which is her equal you will hardly find which is her equal you will hardly find either among her liens or barbarians either among her liens or barbarians either among her liens or barbarians though many that appear to be as great though many that appear to be as great though many that appear to be as great and many times greater and many times greater and many times greater well that is most true he said one but I well that is most true he said one but I well that is most true he said one but I said will be the best limit for our said will be the best limit for our said will be the best limit for our rulers to fix when they are considering rulers to fix when they are considering rulers to fix when they are considering the size of the state and the amount of the size of the state and the amount of the size of the state and the amount of territory which they are to include and territory which they are to include and territory which they are to include and beyond which they will not go what limit beyond which they will not go what limit beyond which they will not go what limit would you propose I would allow the would you propose I would allow the would you propose I would allow the state to increase so far as is state to increase so far as is state to increase so far as is consistent with unity that's I think is consistent with unity that's I think is consistent with unity that's I think is the proper limit a very good he said the proper limit a very good he said the proper limit a very good he said here then I said is another order which here then I said is another order which here then I said is another order which will have to be conveyed to our will have to be conveyed to our will have to be conveyed to our Guardians let our city be accounted Guardians let our city be accounted Guardians let our city be accounted neither large nor small but one and neither large nor small but one and neither large nor small but one and self-sufficing and surely said he this self-sufficing and surely said he this self-sufficing and surely said he this is not a very severe order which we is not a very severe order which we is not a very severe order which we impose upon them and the other said I of impose upon them and the other said I of impose upon them and the other said I of which we were speaking before is lighter

which we were speaking before is lighter which we were speaking before is lighter still I mean the duty of degrading the still I mean the duty of degrading the still I mean the duty of degrading the offspring of the guardians when inferior offspring of the guardians when inferior offspring of the guardians when inferior and of elevating into the rank of and of elevating into the rank of and of elevating into the rank of Guardians the offspring of the lower Guardians the offspring of the lower Guardians the offspring of the lower classes when naturally superior the classes when naturally superior the classes when naturally superior the intention was that in the case of the intention was that in the case of the intention was that in the case of the citizens generally each individual citizens generally each individual citizens generally each individual should be put to the use for which should be put to the use for which should be put to the use for which nature intended him one to one work and nature intended him one to one work and nature intended him one to one work and then every man would do his own business then every man would do his own business then every man would do his own business and be one and not many and so the whole and be one and not many and so the whole and be one and not many and so the whole city would be one and not many yes he city would be one and not many yes he city would be one and not many yes he said that is not so difficult the said that is not so difficult the said that is not so difficult the regulations which we are prescribing regulations which we are prescribing regulations which we are prescribing my good out of mantas are not as might my good out of mantas are not as might my good out of mantas are not as might be supposed a number of great principles be supposed a number of great principles be supposed a number of great principles but trifles all if care be taken as the but trifles all if care be taken as the but trifles all if care be taken as the saying is of the one great thing a thing saying is of the one great thing a thing saying is of the one great thing a thing however which I would rather call not however which I would rather call not however which I would rather call not great but sufficient for our purpose great but sufficient for our purpose great but sufficient for our purpose what may that be what may that be what may that be he asked education I said and nurture if he asked education I said and nurture if he asked education I said and nurture if our citizens are well educated and grow our citizens are well educated and grow our citizens are well educated and grow into sensible men they will easily see into sensible men they will easily see into sensible men they will easily see their way through all these as well as their way through all these as well as their way through all these as well as other matters which I omit such for other matters which I omit such for other matters which I omit such for example as marriage the possession of example as marriage the possession of example as marriage the possession of women and the procreation of children women and the procreation of children women and the procreation of children which will all follow the general which will all follow the general which will all follow the general principle that friends have all things principle that friends have all things principle that friends have all things in common as the proverb says that will in common as the proverb says that will in common as the proverb says that will be the best way of settling them also I be the best way of settling them also I be the best way of settling them also I said the state if once started well

said the state if once started well said the state if once started well moves with accumulating force like a moves with accumulating force like a moves with accumulating force like a wheel for good nurture and education and wheel for good nurture and education and wheel for good nurture and education and plant good constitutions and these good plant good constitutions and these good plant good constitutions and these good constitutions taking root in a good constitutions taking root in a good constitutions taking root in a good education improve more and more and this education improve more and more and this education improve more and more and this improvement affects the breed in man as improvement affects the breed in man as improvement affects the breed in man as in other animals very possibly he said in other animals very possibly he said in other animals very possibly he said then to sum up this is the point to then to sum up this is the point to then to sum up this is the point to which above all the attention of our which above all the attention of our which above all the attention of our rulers should be directed at music and rulers should be directed at music and rulers should be directed at music and gymnastic be preserved in that original gymnastic be preserved in that original gymnastic be preserved in that original form and no innovation made they must do form and no innovation made they must do form and no innovation made they must do their utmost to maintain them intact and their utmost to maintain them intact and their utmost to maintain them intact and when anyone says that mankind must when anyone says that mankind must when anyone says that mankind must regard the newest song which the singers regard the newest song which the singers regard the newest song which the singers have they will be afraid that he may be have they will be afraid that he may be have they will be afraid that he may be praising not new songs but a new kind of praising not new songs but a new kind of praising not new songs but a new kind of song and this ought not to be praised or song and this ought not to be praised or song and this ought not to be praised or conceived to be the meaning of the poet conceived to be the meaning of the poet conceived to be the meaning of the poet for any musical innovation is full of for any musical innovation is full of for any musical innovation is full of danger to the whole state and not to be danger to the whole state and not to be danger to the whole state and not to be prohibited so Damon tells me and I can prohibited so Damon tells me and I can prohibited so Damon tells me and I can quite believe him he says that when quite believe him he says that when quite believe him he says that when modes of music change the fundamental modes of music change the fundamental modes of music change the fundamental laws of the state always change with laws of the state always change with laws of the state always change with them yes said re Montes and you may add them yes said re Montes and you may add them yes said re Montes and you may add my suffrage to Damon's and your own then my suffrage to Damon's and your own then my suffrage to Damon's and your own then I said our guardians must lay the found I said our guardians must lay the found I said our guardians must lay the found of their fortress in music yes he said of their fortress in music yes he said of their fortress in music yes he said the lawlessness of which you speak to the lawlessness of which you speak to the lawlessness of which you speak to easily steals in gas I replied in the

easily steals in gas I replied in the easily steals in gas I replied in the form of amusement and at first sight it form of amusement and at first sight it form of amusement and at first sight it appears harmless my ass he said and appears harmless my ass he said and appears harmless my ass he said and there is no harm were it not that little there is no harm were it not that little there is no harm were it not that little by little this spirit of license finding by little this spirit of license finding by little this spirit of license finding a home imperceptibly penetrates into a home imperceptibly penetrates into a home imperceptibly penetrates into manners and customs whence issuing with manners and customs whence issuing with manners and customs whence issuing with greater force it invades contracts greater force it invades contracts greater force it invades contracts between man and man and from contracts between man and man and from contracts between man and man and from contracts goes on to laws and constitutions in goes on to laws and constitutions in goes on to laws and constitutions in utter recklessness ending at last utter recklessness ending at last utter recklessness ending at last Socrates by an overthrow of all rights Socrates by an overthrow of all rights Socrates by an overthrow of all rights private as well as public is that true I private as well as public is that true I private as well as public is that true I said well that is my belief he replied said well that is my belief he replied said well that is my belief he replied then as I was saying our youth should be then as I was saying our youth should be then as I was saying our youth should be trained from the first in a strictest trained from the first in a strictest trained from the first in a strictest system for if amusements become lawless system for if amusements become lawless system for if amusements become lawless and the youth themselves become lawless and the youth themselves become lawless and the youth themselves become lawless they can never grow up into well they can never grow up into well they can never grow up into well conducted and virtuous citizens very conducted and virtuous citizens very conducted and virtuous citizens very true he said and when they have made a true he said and when they have made a true he said and when they have made a good beginning in play and by the help good beginning in play and by the help good beginning in play and by the help of music have gained the habit of good of music have gained the habit of good of music have gained the habit of good order then this habit of order in a order then this habit of order in a order then this habit of order in a manner how unlike the lawless play of manner how unlike the lawless play of manner how unlike the lawless play of the others will accompany them in all the others will accompany them in all the others will accompany them in all their actions and be a principle of their actions and be a principle of their actions and be a principle of growth to them and if there be any fall growth to them and if there be any fall growth to them and if there be any fall in places in the state will raise them in places in the state will raise them in places in the state will raise them up again very true he said thus educated up again very true he said thus educated up again very true he said thus educated they will invent for themselves any less they will invent for themselves any less they will invent for themselves any less of rules which their predecessors have of rules which their predecessors have of rules which their predecessors have altogether neglected but what do you altogether neglected but what do you altogether neglected but what do you mean I mean such things as these when

mean I mean such things as these when mean I mean such things as these when the young ought to be silent before the young ought to be silent before the young ought to be silent before their elders how they are to show their elders how they are to show their elders how they are to show respect to them by standing and making respect to them by standing and making respect to them by standing and making them sit what honor is due to parents them sit what honor is due to parents them sit what honor is due to parents what garments or shoes are to be worn what garments or shoes are to be worn what garments or shoes are to be worn the mode of dressing the hair deportment the mode of dressing the hair deportment the mode of dressing the hair deportment and manners in general you would agree and manners in general you would agree and manners in general you would agree with me yes but there is I think small with me yes but there is I think small with me yes but there is I think small wisdom and legislating about such wisdom and legislating about such wisdom and legislating about such matters I doubt if it is ever done nor matters I doubt if it is ever done nor matters I doubt if it is ever done nor are any precise written enactments about are any precise written enactments about are any precise written enactments about them likely to be last them likely to be last them likely to be last they're impossible it would seem our they're impossible it would seem our they're impossible it would seem our montes that the direction in which montes that the direction in which montes that the direction in which education starts a man will determine education starts a man will determine education starts a man will determine his future life does not like always a his future life does not like always a his future life does not like always a track like to be sure until someone rare track like to be sure until someone rare track like to be sure until someone rare and grand result is reached which may be and grand result is reached which may be and grand result is reached which may be good and may be the reverse of good that good and may be the reverse of good that good and may be the reverse of good that is not to be denied and for this reason is not to be denied and for this reason is not to be denied and for this reason I said I shall not attempt to legislate I said I shall not attempt to legislate I said I shall not attempt to legislate further about them naturally enough they further about them naturally enough they further about them naturally enough they replied well and about the business of replied well and about the business of replied well and about the business of the Agora and the original dealings the Agora and the original dealings the Agora and the original dealings between man and man door again about between man and man door again about between man and man door again about agreements with artisans about insult agreements with artisans about insult agreements with artisans about insult and injury or the commencement of and injury or the commencement of and injury or the commencement of actions and the appointment of juries actions and the appointment of juries actions and the appointment of juries what would you say there may also belies what would you say there may also belies what would you say there may also belies questions about any impositions and questions about any impositions and questions about any impositions and exactions of market and harbor dues exactions of market and harbor dues exactions of market and harbor dues which may be required and in general which may be required and in general which may be required and in general about the regulations of markets police about the regulations of markets police about the regulations of markets police harbours and the like oh heavens shall

harbours and the like oh heavens shall harbours and the like oh heavens shall be condescend to legislate on any of be condescend to legislate on any of be condescend to legislate on any of these particulars I think he said that these particulars I think he said that these particulars I think he said that there is no need to impose laws about there is no need to impose laws about there is no need to impose laws about them on good men what regulations are them on good men what regulations are them on good men what regulations are necessary they will find out soon enough necessary they will find out soon enough necessary they will find out soon enough for themselves yes I said my friend if for themselves yes I said my friend if for themselves yes I said my friend if God will only preserve to them the laws God will only preserve to them the laws God will only preserve to them the laws which we have given them and without which we have given them and without which we have given them and without divine help said ani Montes they will go divine help said ani Montes they will go divine help said ani Montes they will go on forever making and bending their laws on forever making and bending their laws on forever making and bending their laws and their lives in the hope of attaining and their lives in the hope of attaining and their lives in the hope of attaining perfection you would compare them I said perfection you would compare them I said perfection you would compare them I said to those invalids who having no self to those invalids who having no self to those invalids who having no self restraints will not leave off their restraints will not leave off their restraints will not leave off their habits of intemperance exactly yes I habits of intemperance exactly yes I habits of intemperance exactly yes I said and what a delightful life they said and what a delightful life they said and what a delightful life they lead they are always doctoring and lead they are always doctoring and lead they are always doctoring and increasing and complicating their increasing and complicating their increasing and complicating their disorders and always fancying that they disorders and always fancying that they disorders and always fancying that they will be cured by any Nostrum which will be cured by any Nostrum which will be cured by any Nostrum which anybody advises them to try some cases anybody advises them to try some cases anybody advises them to try some cases are very common he said with influence are very common he said with influence are very common he said with influence of this sort yes I replied and the of this sort yes I replied and the of this sort yes I replied and the charming thing is that they deem him charming thing is that they deem him charming thing is that they deem him their worst enemy who tells them the their worst enemy who tells them the their worst enemy who tells them the truth which is simply that unless they truth which is simply that unless they truth which is simply that unless they give up eating and drinking give up eating and drinking give up eating and drinking and wenching and idling now the drug nor and wenching and idling now the drug nor and wenching and idling now the drug nor cautery nor spell nor amulets nor any cautery nor spell nor amulets nor any cautery nor spell nor amulets nor any other remedy will avail charming he other remedy will avail charming he other remedy will avail charming he replied I see nothing charming and going replied I see nothing charming and going replied I see nothing charming and going into a passion with a man who tells you into a passion with a man who tells you into a passion with a man who tells you what is right what is right what is right these gentlemen I said do not seem to be these gentlemen I said do not seem to be these gentlemen I said do not seem to be in your good graces are surely not nor

in your good graces are surely not nor in your good graces are surely not nor would you praise the behavior of states would you praise the behavior of states would you praise the behavior of states which act like the men whom I was just which act like the men whom I was just which act like the men whom I was just now describing for are there not ill now describing for are there not ill now describing for are there not ill ordered states in which the citizens are ordered states in which the citizens are ordered states in which the citizens are forbidden under pain of death to alter forbidden under pain of death to alter forbidden under pain of death to alter the constitution and yet he who most the constitution and yet he who most the constitution and yet he who most sweetly course those who live under this sweetly course those who live under this sweetly course those who live under this regime and indulges them and falls upon regime and indulges them and falls upon regime and indulges them and falls upon them and his skillful and anticipating them and his skillful and anticipating them and his skillful and anticipating and gratifying their humors is held to and gratifying their humors is held to and gratifying their humors is held to be a great and good statesman do not be a great and good statesman do not be a great and good statesman do not these states resemble the persons whom I these states resemble the persons whom I these states resemble the persons whom I was describing yes he said the states was describing yes he said the states was describing yes he said the states are as bad as the men and I am very far are as bad as the men and I am very far are as bad as the men and I am very far from praising them but do you not admire from praising them but do you not admire from praising them but do you not admire I said the coolness and dexterity of I said the coolness and dexterity of I said the coolness and dexterity of these ready ministers of political these ready ministers of political these ready ministers of political corruption yes he said I do but not for corruption yes he said I do but not for corruption yes he said I do but not for all of them for there are some whom the all of them for there are some whom the all of them for there are some whom the applause of the multitude has deluded applause of the multitude has deluded applause of the multitude has deluded into the belief that they are really into the belief that they are really into the belief that they are really statesmen and these are not much to be statesmen and these are not much to be statesmen and these are not much to be admired what do you mean I said admired what do you mean I said admired what do you mean I said you should have more feeling for them you should have more feeling for them you should have more feeling for them when a man cannot measure and a great when a man cannot measure and a great when a man cannot measure and a great many others who cannot measure declare many others who cannot measure declare many others who cannot measure declare that he is four cubits high can he help that he is four cubits high can he help that he is four cubits high can he help believing what they say nay he said believing what they say nay he said believing what they say nay he said certainly not in that case well then do certainly not in that case well then do certainly not in that case well then do not be angry with them for are they not not be angry with them for are they not not be angry with them for are they not as good as a play trying their hand at as good as a play trying their hand at as good as a play trying their hand at paltry reforms such as I was describing paltry reforms such as I was describing paltry reforms such as I was describing they are always fancying that my they are always fancying that my they are always fancying that my legislation they will make an end of

legislation they will make an end of legislation they will make an end of fraud seed contracts and the other fraud seed contracts and the other fraud seed contracts and the other rascality x' which i was mentioning not rascality x' which i was mentioning not rascality x' which i was mentioning not knowing that they are in reality cutting knowing that they are in reality cutting knowing that they are in reality cutting off the heads of the Hydra yes they said off the heads of the Hydra yes they said off the heads of the Hydra yes they said that is just what they are doing I that is just what they are doing I that is just what they are doing I conceive I said that the true legislator conceive I said that the true legislator conceive I said that the true legislator will not trouble himself with this class will not trouble himself with this class will not trouble himself with this class of enactments whether concerning laws or of enactments whether concerning laws or of enactments whether concerning laws or the the the Constitution either in an ill ordered or Constitution either in an ill ordered or Constitution either in an ill ordered or in a well-ordered state for in the in a well-ordered state for in the in a well-ordered state for in the former they are quite useless and in the former they are quite useless and in the former they are quite useless and in the matter there will be no difficulty in matter there will be no difficulty in matter there will be no difficulty in devising them and many of them will devising them and many of them will devising them and many of them will naturally flow out of our previous naturally flow out of our previous naturally flow out of our previous regulations what then regulations what then regulations what then he said is still remaining to us of the he said is still remaining to us of the he said is still remaining to us of the work of legislation nothing to us I work of legislation nothing to us I work of legislation nothing to us I replied but to Apollo the god of Delphi replied but to Apollo the god of Delphi replied but to Apollo the god of Delphi there remains the ordering of the there remains the ordering of the there remains the ordering of the greatest and noblest and chiefest things greatest and noblest and chiefest things greatest and noblest and chiefest things of all which are they of all which are they of all which are they he said the institution of temples and he said the institution of temples and he said the institution of temples and sacrifices and the entire service of sacrifices and the entire service of sacrifices and the entire service of God's demigods and heroes also the God's demigods and heroes also the God's demigods and heroes also the ordering of the repositories of the dead ordering of the repositories of the dead ordering of the repositories of the dead and the rites which have to be observed and the rites which have to be observed and the rites which have to be observed by him who would propitiate the by him who would propitiate the by him who would propitiate the inhabitants of the world below these are inhabitants of the world below these are inhabitants of the world below these are matters of which we are ignorant matters of which we are ignorant matters of which we are ignorant ourselves and as founders of a city we ourselves and as founders of a city we ourselves and as founders of a city we should be unwise and trusting them to should be unwise and trusting them to should be unwise and trusting them to any interpreter but our ancestral deity any interpreter but our ancestral deity any interpreter but our ancestral deity he is the God who sits in the center on he is the God who sits in the center on he is the God who sits in the center on the navel of the earth and he is the the navel of the earth and he is the the navel of the earth and he is the interpreter of religion to all mankind

interpreter of religion to all mankind interpreter of religion to all mankind you are right and we will do as you you are right and we will do as you you are right and we will do as you propose but where amid all this is propose but where amid all this is propose but where amid all this is justice son of Ariston tell me where now justice son of Ariston tell me where now justice son of Ariston tell me where now that our city has been made habitable that our city has been made habitable that our city has been made habitable light a candle and search and get your light a candle and search and get your light a candle and search and get your brother and Paulo Marcus and the rest of brother and Paulo Marcus and the rest of brother and Paulo Marcus and the rest of our friends to help and let us see we're our friends to help and let us see we're our friends to help and let us see we're in it we can discover justice and we're in it we can discover justice and we're in it we can discover justice and we're in justice and in what they differ from in justice and in what they differ from in justice and in what they differ from one another and wish of them the man who one another and wish of them the man who one another and wish of them the man who would be happy should have for his would be happy should have for his would be happy should have for his portion whether seen or unseen by gods portion whether seen or unseen by gods portion whether seen or unseen by gods and men nonsense said Glaucon did you and men nonsense said Glaucon did you and men nonsense said Glaucon did you not promise to search yourself saying not promise to search yourself saying not promise to search yourself saying that for you not to help justice in her that for you not to help justice in her that for you not to help justice in her need would be an empire T I do not deny need would be an empire T I do not deny need would be an empire T I do not deny that I said so and as you remind me I that I said so and as you remind me I that I said so and as you remind me I will be as good as my word but you must will be as good as my word but you must will be as good as my word but you must join or we will he replied well then I join or we will he replied well then I join or we will he replied well then I hope to make a discovery in this way I hope to make a discovery in this way I hope to make a discovery in this way I mean to begin with the assumption that mean to begin with the assumption that mean to begin with the assumption that State if rightly ordered is perfect that State if rightly ordered is perfect that State if rightly ordered is perfect that is most certain and being perfect is is most certain and being perfect is is most certain and being perfect is therefore wise and valiant and temperate therefore wise and valiant and temperate therefore wise and valiant and temperate and just that is likewise clear and and just that is likewise clear and and just that is likewise clear and whichever of these qualities we find in whichever of these qualities we find in whichever of these qualities we find in the state the one which is not found the state the one which is not found the state the one which is not found will be the residue or very good if will be the residue or very good if will be the residue or very good if there were four things and we were there were four things and we were there were four things and we were searching for one of them wherever it

searching for one of them wherever it searching for one of them wherever it might be the one sought for might be might be the one sought for might be might be the one sought for might be known to us from the first and there known to us from the first and there known to us from the first and there would be no further trouble or we might would be no further trouble or we might would be no further trouble or we might know the other three first and then the know the other three first and then the know the other three first and then the fourth would be clearly that one left fourth would be clearly that one left fourth would be clearly that one left well very true he said and it's not a well very true he said and it's not a well very true he said and it's not a similar method to be pursued about the similar method to be pursued about the similar method to be pursued about the virtues which are also four in number virtues which are also four in number virtues which are also four in number clearly first among the virtues found in clearly first among the virtues found in clearly first among the virtues found in the state wisdom comes into view and in the state wisdom comes into view and in the state wisdom comes into view and in this I detect a certain peculiarity what this I detect a certain peculiarity what this I detect a certain peculiarity what is that is that is that the state which we have been describing the state which we have been describing the state which we have been describing is said to be wise as being good in is said to be wise as being good in is said to be wise as being good in counsel very true and good counsel is counsel very true and good counsel is counsel very true and good counsel is clearly a kind of knowledge for not by clearly a kind of knowledge for not by clearly a kind of knowledge for not by ignorance but by knowledge do men ignorance but by knowledge do men ignorance but by knowledge do men counsel well clearly and the kinds of counsel well clearly and the kinds of counsel well clearly and the kinds of knowledge in a state are many and knowledge in a state are many and knowledge in a state are many and diverse of course there is the knowledge diverse of course there is the knowledge diverse of course there is the knowledge of the carpenter but is that the sort of of the carpenter but is that the sort of of the carpenter but is that the sort of knowledge which gives the city the title knowledge which gives the city the title knowledge which gives the city the title of wise and good in counsel certainly of wise and good in counsel certainly of wise and good in counsel certainly not that would only give a city the not that would only give a city the not that would only give a city the reputation of skill and carpentering reputation of skill and carpentering reputation of skill and carpentering that a city is not to be called wise that a city is not to be called wise that a city is not to be called wise because possessing of knowledge which because possessing of knowledge which because possessing of knowledge which counts us for the best about wooden counts us for the best about wooden counts us for the best about wooden implements certainly not nor by reason implements certainly not nor by reason implements certainly not nor by reason of a knowledge which advises about of a knowledge which advises about of a knowledge which advises about brazen paths brazen paths brazen paths I said nor us possessing any other I said nor us possessing any other I said nor us possessing any other similar knowledge not by reason of any similar knowledge not by reason of any similar knowledge not by reason of any of them he said nor yet by reason of a of them he said nor yet by reason of a of them he said nor yet by reason of a knowledge which cultivates the earth knowledge which cultivates the earth knowledge which cultivates the earth that would give the city the name of that would give the city the name of that would give the city the name of agricultural yes well I said and is

agricultural yes well I said and is agricultural yes well I said and is there any knowledge in our recently there any knowledge in our recently there any knowledge in our recently founded State among any of the citizens founded State among any of the citizens founded State among any of the citizens which advises not about any particular which advises not about any particular which advises not about any particular thing in the state but about the whole thing in the state but about the whole thing in the state but about the whole and considers how mistake can best deal and considers how mistake can best deal and considers how mistake can best deal with itself and with with itself and with with itself and with states are certainly is and what is this states are certainly is and what is this states are certainly is and what is this knowledge and among whom is it found I knowledge and among whom is it found I knowledge and among whom is it found I asked where it is the knowledge of The asked where it is the knowledge of The asked where it is the knowledge of The Cardigans he replied and is found among Cardigans he replied and is found among Cardigans he replied and is found among those whom we were just now describing those whom we were just now describing those whom we were just now describing as perfect Guardians and what is the as perfect Guardians and what is the as perfect Guardians and what is the name which the city derives from the name which the city derives from the name which the city derives from the possession of this sort of knowledge the possession of this sort of knowledge the possession of this sort of knowledge the name of good and counsel and truly wise name of good and counsel and truly wise name of good and counsel and truly wise and will there be in our city more of and will there be in our city more of and will there be in our city more of these true guardians or more Smith's The these true guardians or more Smith's The these true guardians or more Smith's The Smiths they replied will be far more Smiths they replied will be far more Smiths they replied will be far more numerous will not the Guardians be the numerous will not the Guardians be the numerous will not the Guardians be the smallest of all the classes have receive smallest of all the classes have receive smallest of all the classes have receive a name from the profession of such kind a name from the profession of such kind a name from the profession of such kind of knowledge much the smallest and so by of knowledge much the smallest and so by of knowledge much the smallest and so by reason of the smallest part or class and reason of the smallest part or class and reason of the smallest part or class and of the knowledge which resides in this of the knowledge which resides in this of the knowledge which resides in this presiding and ruling part of itself the presiding and ruling part of itself the presiding and ruling part of itself the whole state being thus constituted whole state being thus constituted whole state being thus constituted according to nature will be wise and according to nature will be wise and according to nature will be wise and this which has the only knowledge worthy this which has the only knowledge worthy this which has the only knowledge worthy to be called wisdom has been ordained by to be called wisdom has been ordained by to be called wisdom has been ordained by nature to be of all classes the least nature to be of all classes the least nature to be of all classes the least most true thus then I said the nature most true thus then I said the nature most true thus then I said the nature and place in the state of one of the and place in the state of one of the and place in the state of one of the four virtues has somehow or other been four virtues has somehow or other been four virtues has somehow or other been discovered and in my humble opinion very discovered and in my humble opinion very discovered and in my humble opinion very satisfactorily discovered they replied

satisfactorily discovered they replied satisfactorily discovered they replied again I said there is no difficulty in again I said there is no difficulty in again I said there is no difficulty in seeing the nature of courage and in what seeing the nature of courage and in what seeing the nature of courage and in what part that quality resides which gives part that quality resides which gives part that quality resides which gives the name of courageous to the state oh the name of courageous to the state oh the name of courageous to the state oh how do you mean why I said everyone who how do you mean why I said everyone who how do you mean why I said everyone who calls any state courageous or cowardly calls any state courageous or cowardly calls any state courageous or cowardly will be thinking of the part which will be thinking of the part which will be thinking of the part which fights and goes to war on the state's fights and goes to war on the state's fights and goes to war on the state's behalf no one he replied would ever behalf no one he replied would ever behalf no one he replied would ever think of any other think of any other think of any other the rest of the citizens may be the rest of the citizens may be the rest of the citizens may be courageous or may be cowardly but their courageous or may be cowardly but their courageous or may be cowardly but their courage or cowardice will nods as I courage or cowardice will nods as I courage or cowardice will nods as I conceive have the effect of making the conceive have the effect of making the conceive have the effect of making the city either the one or the other city either the one or the other city either the one or the other certainly not the city will be certainly not the city will be certainly not the city will be courageous in virtue of a portion of courageous in virtue of a portion of courageous in virtue of a portion of herself which preserves under all herself which preserves under all herself which preserves under all circumstances that opinion about the circumstances that opinion about the circumstances that opinion about the nature of things to be feared and not to nature of things to be feared and not to nature of things to be feared and not to be feared in which our legislature be feared in which our legislature be feared in which our legislature educated them and this is what you term educated them and this is what you term educated them and this is what you term courage I should like to hear what you courage I should like to hear what you courage I should like to hear what you were saying once more for I do not think were saying once more for I do not think were saying once more for I do not think that I perfectly understand you I mean that I perfectly understand you I mean that I perfectly understand you I mean that courage is a kind of salvation that courage is a kind of salvation that courage is a kind of salvation salvation of what of the opinion salvation of what of the opinion salvation of what of the opinion respecting things to be feared what they respecting things to be feared what they respecting things to be feared what they are and of what nature which the law are and of what nature which the law are and of what nature which the law implants through education than I mean implants through education than I mean implants through education than I mean by the words under all circumstances to by the words under all circumstances to by the words under all circumstances to intimated that in pleasure or in pain or intimated that in pleasure or in pain or intimated that in pleasure or in pain or under the influence of desire or fear a under the influence of desire or fear a under the influence of desire or fear a man preserves and does not lose his man preserves and does not lose his man preserves and does not lose his opinion shall I give you an illustration opinion shall I give you an illustration opinion shall I give you an illustration if you please you know I said that dyers

if you please you know I said that dyers if you please you know I said that dyers when they want to die wolf for making when they want to die wolf for making when they want to die wolf for making the truth see purple begin by selecting the truth see purple begin by selecting the truth see purple begin by selecting their white color first this they their white color first this they their white color first this they prepare and dress with much care and prepare and dress with much care and prepare and dress with much care and pains in order that the white ground may pains in order that the white ground may pains in order that the white ground may take the purple hue in full perfection take the purple hue in full perfection take the purple hue in full perfection the dying then proceeds and whatever is the dying then proceeds and whatever is the dying then proceeds and whatever is died in this manner becomes a fast color died in this manner becomes a fast color died in this manner becomes a fast color but no washing either with lies or but no washing either with lies or but no washing either with lies or without them can take away the bloom but without them can take away the bloom but without them can take away the bloom but when the ground has not been duly when the ground has not been duly when the ground has not been duly prepared you will have noticed how poor prepared you will have noticed how poor prepared you will have noticed how poor is the look either a purple or of any is the look either a purple or of any is the look either a purple or of any other color yes he said I know that they other color yes he said I know that they other color yes he said I know that they have a washed-out and ridiculous have a washed-out and ridiculous have a washed-out and ridiculous appearance then now I said you will appearance then now I said you will appearance then now I said you will understand what our object was in understand what our object was in understand what our object was in selecting our soldiers and educating selecting our soldiers and educating selecting our soldiers and educating them in music and gymnastic we are them in music and gymnastic we are them in music and gymnastic we are contriving influences which would contriving influences which would contriving influences which would prepare them to take the dye of the laws prepare them to take the dye of the laws prepare them to take the dye of the laws in perfection and the color of their in perfection and the color of their in perfection and the color of their opinion about dangers and of every other opinion about dangers and of every other opinion about dangers and of every other opinion was to be indelibly fixed by opinion was to be indelibly fixed by opinion was to be indelibly fixed by their nurture their nurture their nurture training not to be washed away by such training not to be washed away by such training not to be washed away by such potent lies as pleasure mightier agent potent lies as pleasure mightier agent potent lies as pleasure mightier agent far in washing the South in any soda or far in washing the South in any soda or far in washing the South in any soda or lye or by sorrow fear and desire the lye or by sorrow fear and desire the lye or by sorrow fear and desire the mightiest of all other solvents and this mightiest of all other solvents and this mightiest of all other solvents and this sort of universal saving power of true sort of universal saving power of true sort of universal saving power of true opinion in conformity with law about opinion in conformity with law about opinion in conformity with law about real and false dangers I call and real and false dangers I call and real and false dangers I call and maintain to be courage unless you maintain to be courage unless you maintain to be courage unless you disagree when I agree he replied for I

disagree when I agree he replied for I disagree when I agree he replied for I suppose that you mean to exclude more suppose that you mean to exclude more suppose that you mean to exclude more uninstructed courage such as that of a uninstructed courage such as that of a uninstructed courage such as that of a wild beast or a slave this in your wild beast or a slave this in your wild beast or a slave this in your opinion is not the courage which law opinion is not the courage which law opinion is not the courage which law ordains and also have another name most ordains and also have another name most ordains and also have another name most certainly then I may infer courage to be certainly then I may infer courage to be certainly then I may infer courage to be such as you described by yes said I you such as you described by yes said I you such as you described by yes said I you may and if you add the words of a may and if you add the words of a may and if you add the words of a citizen you will not be far wrong citizen you will not be far wrong citizen you will not be far wrong hereafter if you like we will carry the hereafter if you like we will carry the hereafter if you like we will carry the examination further but at present we examination further but at present we examination further but at present we are seeking not for courage but justice are seeking not for courage but justice are seeking not for courage but justice and for the purpose of our inquiry we and for the purpose of our inquiry we and for the purpose of our inquiry we have said enough you are right he have said enough you are right he have said enough you are right he replied two virtues remain to be replied two virtues remain to be replied two virtues remain to be discovered in the state first temperance discovered in the state first temperance discovered in the state first temperance and their justice which is the end of and their justice which is the end of and their justice which is the end of our search very true our search very true our search very true ah can we find justice without troubling ah can we find justice without troubling ah can we find justice without troubling ourselves about temperance I do not know ourselves about temperance I do not know ourselves about temperance I do not know how that could be accomplished we said how that could be accomplished we said how that could be accomplished we said nor do I desire that justice should be nor do I desire that justice should be nor do I desire that justice should be brought to light and temperance lost brought to light and temperance lost brought to light and temperance lost sight of and therefore I wish that you sight of and therefore I wish that you sight of and therefore I wish that you would do me the favor of considering would do me the favor of considering would do me the favor of considering temperance first certainly I replied I temperance first certainly I replied I temperance first certainly I replied I should not be justified in refusing your should not be justified in refusing your should not be justified in refusing your request then the consider he said yes I request then the consider he said yes I request then the consider he said yes I replied I will and as far as I can at replied I will and as far as I can at replied I will and as far as I can at present see the virtue of temperance has present see the virtue of temperance has present see the virtue of temperance has more of the nature of harmony and

more of the nature of harmony and more of the nature of harmony and Symphony than the preceding how so he Symphony than the preceding how so he Symphony than the preceding how so he asked temperance I replied is the asked temperance I replied is the asked temperance I replied is the ordering or controlling of certain ordering or controlling of certain ordering or controlling of certain pleasures and desires this is curiously pleasures and desires this is curiously pleasures and desires this is curiously enough implied in the saying of a man enough implied in the saying of a man enough implied in the saying of a man being his own master and other traces of being his own master and other traces of being his own master and other traces of the same notion may be found in language the same notion may be found in language the same notion may be found in language no Dart no Dart no Dart he said there is something ridiculous in he said there is something ridiculous in he said there is something ridiculous in the expression master of himself for the the expression master of himself for the the expression master of himself for the master is also the servant and the master is also the servant and the master is also the servant and the servant the master and in all these servant the master and in all these servant the master and in all these modes of speaking the same person is modes of speaking the same person is modes of speaking the same person is denoted but certainly the meaning is I denoted but certainly the meaning is I denoted but certainly the meaning is I believe that in the human soul there is believe that in the human soul there is believe that in the human soul there is a better and also a worse principle and a better and also a worse principle and a better and also a worse principle and when the better has the worse under when the better has the worse under when the better has the worse under control then a man is said to be master control then a man is said to be master control then a man is said to be master of himself and this is a term of praise of himself and this is a term of praise of himself and this is a term of praise but when owing to evil education or but when owing to evil education or but when owing to evil education or Association the better principal which Association the better principal which Association the better principal which is also the smaller is overwhelmed by is also the smaller is overwhelmed by is also the smaller is overwhelmed by the greater mass of the worst in this the greater mass of the worst in this the greater mass of the worst in this case he is blamed and is called the case he is blamed and is called the case he is blamed and is called the slave of self and unprincipled yes there slave of self and unprincipled yes there slave of self and unprincipled yes there is reason in that and now I said look at is reason in that and now I said look at is reason in that and now I said look at our newly created state and there you our newly created state and there you our newly created state and there you will find one of these two conditions will find one of these two conditions will find one of these two conditions realized for the state as you will realized for the state as you will realized for the state as you will acknowledge may be justly called master acknowledge may be justly called master acknowledge may be justly called master of itself if the words temperance and of itself if the words temperance and of itself if the words temperance and self-mastery truly expressed the rule of self-mastery truly expressed the rule of self-mastery truly expressed the rule of the better part over the worse yes he

the better part over the worse yes he the better part over the worse yes he said I see that what you say is true said I see that what you say is true said I see that what you say is true let me further note that the manifold let me further note that the manifold let me further note that the manifold and complex pleasures and desires and and complex pleasures and desires and and complex pleasures and desires and pains are generally found in children pains are generally found in children pains are generally found in children and women and servants and in the and women and servants and in the and women and servants and in the freemen so-called who are the lowest and freemen so-called who are the lowest and freemen so-called who are the lowest and more numerous class certainly he said more numerous class certainly he said more numerous class certainly he said whereas the simple and moderate desires whereas the simple and moderate desires whereas the simple and moderate desires which follow reason and are under the which follow reason and are under the which follow reason and are under the guidance of mind and true opinion are to guidance of mind and true opinion are to guidance of mind and true opinion are to be found only in a few and those the be found only in a few and those the be found only in a few and those the best born and best educated very true best born and best educated very true best born and best educated very true these two as you may perceive have a these two as you may perceive have a these two as you may perceive have a place in our state and the meaner place in our state and the meaner place in our state and the meaner desires of the many are held down by the desires of the many are held down by the desires of the many are held down by the virtuous desires and wisdom of the few virtuous desires and wisdom of the few virtuous desires and wisdom of the few for that I perceive he said then if for that I perceive he said then if for that I perceive he said then if there'll be any city which may be there'll be any city which may be there'll be any city which may be described as master of its own pleasures described as master of its own pleasures described as master of its own pleasures and desires and master of itself ours and desires and master of itself ours and desires and master of itself ours may claim such a designation certainly may claim such a designation certainly may claim such a designation certainly it replied it may also be called it replied it may also be called it replied it may also be called temperance and for the same reasons yes temperance and for the same reasons yes temperance and for the same reasons yes and if there be any state in which and if there be any state in which and if there be any state in which rulers and subjects will be agreed as to rulers and subjects will be agreed as to rulers and subjects will be agreed as to the question who are to rule that again the question who are to rule that again the question who are to rule that again will be our state undoubtedly and the will be our state undoubtedly and the will be our state undoubtedly and the citizens being thus agreed among citizens being thus agreed among citizens being thus agreed among themselves in which class will themselves in which class will themselves in which class will temperance be found in the rulers or in temperance be found in the rulers or in temperance be found in the rulers or in their subjects in both as I should their subjects in both as I should their subjects in both as I should imagine it replied do you observe that imagine it replied do you observe that imagine it replied do you observe that we are not far wrong in our guests that we are not far wrong in our guests that

we are not far wrong in our guests that temperance was a sort of harmony why so temperance was a sort of harmony why so temperance was a sort of harmony why so by because temperance is unlike courage by because temperance is unlike courage by because temperance is unlike courage and wisdom each of which resides in a and wisdom each of which resides in a and wisdom each of which resides in a part only the one making the state wise part only the one making the state wise part only the one making the state wise and the other valiant not so temperance and the other valiant not so temperance and the other valiant not so temperance which extends to the whole and runs which extends to the whole and runs which extends to the whole and runs through all the notes of the scale and through all the notes of the scale and through all the notes of the scale and produces a harmony of the weaker and the produces a harmony of the weaker and the produces a harmony of the weaker and the stronger and the middle-class whether stronger and the middle-class whether stronger and the middle-class whether you suppose them to be stronger or you suppose them to be stronger or you suppose them to be stronger or weaker in wisdom or power or numbers or weaker in wisdom or power or numbers or weaker in wisdom or power or numbers or wealth or anything else most truly then wealth or anything else most truly then wealth or anything else most truly then may we deem temperance to be the may we deem temperance to be the may we deem temperance to be the agreement of a naturally superior and agreement of a naturally superior and agreement of a naturally superior and inferior as to the right of rule of inferior as to the right of rule of inferior as to the right of rule of either both in States and individuals I either both in States and individuals I either both in States and individuals I entirely agree with you entirely agree with you entirely agree with you so I said we may consider three out of so I said we may consider three out of so I said we may consider three out of the four virtues to have been discovered the four virtues to have been discovered the four virtues to have been discovered in our state the last of these qualities in our state the last of these qualities in our state the last of these qualities which make a state virtuous must be which make a state virtuous must be which make a state virtuous must be justice if we only knew what that was justice if we only knew what that was justice if we only knew what that was the inference is obvious the time as the inference is obvious the time as the inference is obvious the time as then arrived then arrived then arrived Glaucon when like Huntsman we should Glaucon when like Huntsman we should Glaucon when like Huntsman we should surround the cover and look sharp that surround the cover and look sharp that surround the cover and look sharp that justice does not steal away and pass out justice does not steal away and pass out justice does not steal away and pass out of sight and escape us for beyond a of sight and escape us for beyond a of sight and escape us for beyond a doubt she is somewhere in this country doubt she is somewhere in this country doubt she is somewhere in this country watch therefore and strive to catch a watch therefore and strive to catch a watch therefore and strive to catch a side of her and if you see her first let side of her and if you see her first let side of her and if you see her first let me know would that I could but you me know would that I could but you me know would that I could but you should regard me rather as a follower should regard me rather as a follower should regard me rather as a follower who has just eyes enough to see what you

who has just eyes enough to see what you who has just eyes enough to see what you show him that is about as much as I am show him that is about as much as I am show him that is about as much as I am good for offer a prayer with me and good for offer a prayer with me and good for offer a prayer with me and follow I will but you must show me the follow I will but you must show me the follow I will but you must show me the way here is no path I said and the wood way here is no path I said and the wood way here is no path I said and the wood is dark and perplexing still we must is dark and perplexing still we must is dark and perplexing still we must push on let us push on push on let us push on push on let us push on end of book 4 part 1 book 4 part 2 of the Republic by Plato book 4 part 2 of the Republic by Plato this LibriVox recording is in the public this LibriVox recording is in the public this LibriVox recording is in the public domain read by Bob Neufeld here I saw something hello I said I here I saw something hello I said I begin to perceive a track and I believe begin to perceive a track and I believe begin to perceive a track and I believe that the quarry will not escape good that the quarry will not escape good that the quarry will not escape good news he said truly I said we are stupid news he said truly I said we are stupid news he said truly I said we are stupid fellows why so why my good sir fellows why so why my good sir fellows why so why my good sir at the beginning of our inquiry ages ago at the beginning of our inquiry ages ago at the beginning of our inquiry ages ago there was justice tumbling out at our there was justice tumbling out at our there was justice tumbling out at our feet and we never saw her nothing could feet and we never saw her nothing could feet and we never saw her nothing could be more ridiculous like people who go be more ridiculous like people who go be more ridiculous like people who go about looking for what they have in about looking for what they have in about looking for what they have in their hands that was the way with us we their hands that was the way with us we their hands that was the way with us we look not at what we were seeking but at look not at what we were seeking but at look not at what we were seeking but at what was far off in the distance and

what was far off in the distance and what was far off in the distance and therefore I suppose we missed her what therefore I suppose we missed her what therefore I suppose we missed her what do you mean I mean to say that in do you mean I mean to say that in do you mean I mean to say that in reality for a long time past we have reality for a long time past we have reality for a long time past we have been talking of justice and have failed been talking of justice and have failed been talking of justice and have failed to recognize her I grow impatient of the to recognize her I grow impatient of the to recognize her I grow impatient of the length of your exordium well then tell length of your exordium well then tell length of your exordium well then tell me I said whether I am right or not you me I said whether I am right or not you me I said whether I am right or not you remember the original principle which we remember the original principle which we remember the original principle which we were always laying down at the were always laying down at the were always laying down at the foundation of the state that one man foundation of the state that one man foundation of the state that one man should practice one thing only the thing should practice one thing only the thing should practice one thing only the thing to which his nature was best adapted now to which his nature was best adapted now to which his nature was best adapted now justice is this principle or a part of justice is this principle or a part of justice is this principle or a part of it yes we often said that one man should it yes we often said that one man should it yes we often said that one man should do one thing only further we affirmed do one thing only further we affirmed do one thing only further we affirmed that justice was doing one's own that justice was doing one's own that justice was doing one's own business and not being a busybody we business and not being a busybody we business and not being a busybody we said so again and again and many others said so again and again and many others said so again and again and many others have said the same to us yes we said so have said the same to us yes we said so have said the same to us yes we said so then to do one's own business in a then to do one's own business in a then to do one's own business in a certain way may be assumed to be justice certain way may be assumed to be justice certain way may be assumed to be justice can you tell me when side arrive this can you tell me when side arrive this can you tell me when side arrive this inference I cannot but I should like to inference I cannot but I should like to inference I cannot but I should like to be told because I think that this is the be told because I think that this is the be told because I think that this is the only virtue which remains in the state only virtue which remains in the state only virtue which remains in the state when the other virtues of temperance and when the other virtues of temperance and when the other virtues of temperance and courage and wisdom are abstracted and courage and wisdom are abstracted and courage and wisdom are abstracted and that this is the ultimate cause and that this is the ultimate cause and that this is the ultimate cause and condition of the existence of all of condition of the existence of all of condition of the existence of all of them and while remaining in them is also them and while remaining in them is also them and while remaining in them is also their preservative and we were saying their preservative and we were saying their preservative and we were saying that if the three were discovered by us

that if the three were discovered by us that if the three were discovered by us justice would be the fourth or remaining justice would be the fourth or remaining justice would be the fourth or remaining one well that follows of necessity if we one well that follows of necessity if we one well that follows of necessity if we are asked to determine which of these are asked to determine which of these are asked to determine which of these four qualities by its presence four qualities by its presence four qualities by its presence contributes most to the excellence of contributes most to the excellence of contributes most to the excellence of the state whether the agreement of the state whether the agreement of the state whether the agreement of rulers and subjects or the preservation rulers and subjects or the preservation rulers and subjects or the preservation and the soldiers of the opinion which and the soldiers of the opinion which and the soldiers of the opinion which the law ordains about the true nature of the law ordains about the true nature of the law ordains about the true nature of dangers or wisdom and watts fulness in dangers or wisdom and watts fulness in dangers or wisdom and watts fulness in the rulers or whether this other which I the rulers or whether this other which I the rulers or whether this other which I am mentioning and which is found in am mentioning and which is found in am mentioning and which is found in children and women slave and Freeman children and women slave and Freeman children and women slave and Freeman artisan ruler subject the quality I mean artisan ruler subject the quality I mean artisan ruler subject the quality I mean of everyone doing his own work and not of everyone doing his own work and not of everyone doing his own work and not being a busybody would claim the poem being a busybody would claim the poem being a busybody would claim the poem the question is not so easily answered the question is not so easily answered the question is not so easily answered certainly he replied there would be a certainly he replied there would be a certainly he replied there would be a difficulty in saying which then the difficulty in saying which then the difficulty in saying which then the power of each individual in the state to power of each individual in the state to power of each individual in the state to do his own work appears to compete with do his own work appears to compete with do his own work appears to compete with the other political virtues wisdom the other political virtues wisdom the other political virtues wisdom temperance courage yes he said and the temperance courage yes he said and the temperance courage yes he said and the virtue which enters into this virtue which enters into this virtue which enters into this competition is justice exactly let us competition is justice exactly let us competition is justice exactly let us look at the question from another point look at the question from another point look at the question from another point of view are not the rulers in a state of view are not the rulers in a state of view are not the rulers in a state those to whom you would entrust the those to whom you would entrust the those to whom you would entrust the office of determining suit certain law office of determining suit certain law office of determining suit certain law certainly and our suits decided on any certainly and our suits decided on any certainly and our suits decided on any other ground but that a man may neither other ground but that a man may neither other ground but that a man may neither take what is another's no be deprived of take what is another's no be deprived of take what is another's no be deprived of what is his own yes that is their what is his own yes that is their what is his own yes that is their principle which is a just principle yes

principle which is a just principle yes principle which is a just principle yes then on this view also justice will be then on this view also justice will be then on this view also justice will be admitted to be the having and doing what admitted to be the having and doing what admitted to be the having and doing what is it man's own and belongs to him very is it man's own and belongs to him very is it man's own and belongs to him very true think now and say whether you agree true think now and say whether you agree true think now and say whether you agree with me or not with me or not with me or not suppose a carpenter to be doing the suppose a carpenter to be doing the suppose a carpenter to be doing the business of a cobbler or a cobbler of a business of a cobbler or a cobbler of a business of a cobbler or a cobbler of a carpenter and suppose them to exchange carpenter and suppose them to exchange carpenter and suppose them to exchange their implements or their duties or the their implements or their duties or the their implements or their duties or the same person to be doing the work of both same person to be doing the work of both same person to be doing the work of both or whatever be the change do you think or whatever be the change do you think or whatever be the change do you think that any great harm would result to the that any great harm would result to the that any great harm would result to the state state state not much but when the cobbler or any not much but when the cobbler or any not much but when the cobbler or any other man whom nature designed to be a other man whom nature designed to be a other man whom nature designed to be a trader having his heart lifted up by trader having his heart lifted up by trader having his heart lifted up by wealth or strength for the number of his wealth or strength for the number of his wealth or strength for the number of his followers or any like advantage attempts followers or any like advantage attempts followers or any like advantage attempts to force his way into the class of to force his way into the class of to force his way into the class of warriors or a warrior into that of warriors or a warrior into that of warriors or a warrior into that of legislators and Guardians for which he legislators and Guardians for which he legislators and Guardians for which he is unfitted and either to take the is unfitted and either to take the is unfitted and either to take the implements or the duties of the other or implements or the duties of the other or implements or the duties of the other or when a man is trader legislator and when a man is trader legislator and when a man is trader legislator and warrior all-in-one then I think you will warrior all-in-one then I think you will warrior all-in-one then I think you will agree with me in saying that this agree with me in saying that this agree with me in saying that this interchange and this meddling of one interchange and this meddling of one interchange and this meddling of one with another is the ruin of the state with another is the ruin of the state with another is the ruin of the state most true seeing then I said that there most true seeing then I said that there most true seeing then I said that there are three distinct classes any meddling are three distinct classes any meddling are three distinct classes any meddling of one with another or the change of one of one with another or the change of one of one with another or the change of one into another is the greatest harm to the into another is the greatest harm to the into another is the greatest harm to the state and may be most justly termed evil state and may be most justly termed evil state and may be most justly termed evil doing precisely and the greatest degree

doing precisely and the greatest degree doing precisely and the greatest degree of evil doing to one's own City would be of evil doing to one's own City would be of evil doing to one's own City would be termed by you in justice certainly this termed by you in justice certainly this termed by you in justice certainly this then is injustice and on the other hand then is injustice and on the other hand then is injustice and on the other hand when the trader the auxiliary and the when the trader the auxiliary and the when the trader the auxiliary and the guardian each do their own business that guardian each do their own business that guardian each do their own business that is justice and will make the city just I is justice and will make the city just I is justice and will make the city just I agree with you we will not I said be agree with you we will not I said be agree with you we will not I said be over positive as yet but if on trial over positive as yet but if on trial over positive as yet but if on trial this conception of justice be verified this conception of justice be verified this conception of justice be verified in the individual as well as in the in the individual as well as in the in the individual as well as in the state there will be no longer any room state there will be no longer any room state there will be no longer any room for doubt if it be not verified we must for doubt if it be not verified we must for doubt if it be not verified we must have a fresh inquiry first let us have a fresh inquiry first let us have a fresh inquiry first let us complete the old investigation which we complete the old investigation which we complete the old investigation which we began as you remember under the began as you remember under the began as you remember under the impression that if we could previously impression that if we could previously impression that if we could previously examine justice on the largest scale examine justice on the largest scale examine justice on the largest scale there would be less difficulty in there would be less difficulty in there would be less difficulty in discerning her in the individual that discerning her in the individual that discerning her in the individual that larger example appeared to be the state larger example appeared to be the state larger example appeared to be the state and accordingly we construct it as good and accordingly we construct it as good and accordingly we construct it as good to one as we could knowing well that in to one as we could knowing well that in to one as we could knowing well that in the good state justice would be found the good state justice would be found the good state justice would be found let the discovery which we made may now let the discovery which we made may now let the discovery which we made may now apply to the individual apply to the individual apply to the individual if they agree we shall be satisfied or if they agree we shall be satisfied or if they agree we shall be satisfied or if there be a difference in the if there be a difference in the if there be a difference in the individual we will come back to the individual we will come back to the individual we will come back to the state and have another trial of a theory state and have another trial of a theory state and have another trial of a theory the friction of the two when rubbed the friction of the two when rubbed the friction of the two when rubbed together may possibly strike a light in together may possibly strike a light in together may possibly strike a light in which justice will shine forth and the

which justice will shine forth and the which justice will shine forth and the vision which is then revealed we will vision which is then revealed we will vision which is then revealed we will fix in our souls that will be in regular fix in our souls that will be in regular fix in our souls that will be in regular course let us do as you say course let us do as you say course let us do as you say I proceeded to ask when two things a I proceeded to ask when two things a I proceeded to ask when two things a greater and less are called by the same greater and less are called by the same greater and less are called by the same name are they like or unlike in so far name are they like or unlike in so far name are they like or unlike in so far as they are called the same like he as they are called the same like he as they are called the same like he replied the just man then if we regard replied the just man then if we regard replied the just man then if we regard the idea of Justice only will be like the idea of Justice only will be like the idea of Justice only will be like the just state they will and a state was the just state they will and a state was the just state they will and a state was thought by us to be just when the three thought by us to be just when the three thought by us to be just when the three classes in the state severally did their classes in the state severally did their classes in the state severally did their own business and also thought to be own business and also thought to be own business and also thought to be temperent and valiant and wise by reason temperent and valiant and wise by reason temperent and valiant and wise by reason of certain other affections and of certain other affections and of certain other affections and qualities of these same classes true he qualities of these same classes true he qualities of these same classes true he said and the so of the individual we may said and the so of the individual we may said and the so of the individual we may assume that he has the same three assume that he has the same three assume that he has the same three principles in his own soul which we find principles in his own soul which we find principles in his own soul which we find in the state and he may be rightly in the state and he may be rightly in the state and he may be rightly described in the same terms because he described in the same terms because he described in the same terms because he is effected in the same manner is effected in the same manner is effected in the same manner certainly he said once more then no my certainly he said once more then no my certainly he said once more then no my friend friend friend we have alighted upon an easy question we have alighted upon an easy question we have alighted upon an easy question whether the soul has these three whether the soul has these three whether the soul has these three principles or not an easy question principles or not an easy question principles or not an easy question they'd rather Socrates the proverb holds they'd rather Socrates the proverb holds they'd rather Socrates the proverb holds that hard is the good very true I said that hard is the good very true I said that hard is the good very true I said and I do not think that the method which

and I do not think that the method which and I do not think that the method which we are employing is that all adequate to we are employing is that all adequate to we are employing is that all adequate to the accurate solution of this question the accurate solution of this question the accurate solution of this question the true method is another and a longer the true method is another and a longer the true method is another and a longer one still we may arrive at a solution one still we may arrive at a solution one still we may arrive at a solution not below the level of the previous not below the level of the previous not below the level of the previous inquiry may we not be satisfied with inquiry may we not be satisfied with inquiry may we not be satisfied with that he said under the circumstances I that he said under the circumstances I that he said under the circumstances I am quite content I too I replied shall am quite content I too I replied shall am quite content I too I replied shall be extremely well be extremely well be extremely well satisfied then fate not in pursuing the satisfied then fate not in pursuing the satisfied then fate not in pursuing the speculation he said must we not speculation he said must we not speculation he said must we not acknowledge I said that in each of us acknowledge I said that in each of us acknowledge I said that in each of us there are the same principles and habits there are the same principles and habits there are the same principles and habits which there are in the state and that which there are in the state and that which there are in the state and that from the individual they pass into the from the individual they pass into the from the individual they pass into the state how else can they come there take state how else can they come there take state how else can they come there take the quality of passion or spirit that the quality of passion or spirit that the quality of passion or spirit that would be ridiculous to imagine that this would be ridiculous to imagine that this would be ridiculous to imagine that this quality when found in States is not quality when found in States is not quality when found in States is not derived from the individuals who are derived from the individuals who are derived from the individuals who are supposed to possess it supposed to possess it supposed to possess it for example the Thracians the Sith ian's for example the Thracians the Sith ian's for example the Thracians the Sith ian's and in general the northern nations and and in general the northern nations and and in general the northern nations and the same may be said of the love of the same may be said of the love of the same may be said of the love of knowledge which is the special knowledge which is the special knowledge which is the special characteristic of our part of the world characteristic of our part of the world characteristic of our part of the world or the love of money which may with or the love of money which may with or the love of money which may with equal truth be attributed to the equal truth be attributed to the equal truth be attributed to the Phoenicians and Egyptians exactly so he Phoenicians and Egyptians exactly so he Phoenicians and Egyptians exactly so he said there is no difficulty in said there is no difficulty in said there is no difficulty in understanding this none whatever but the understanding this none whatever but the understanding this none whatever but the question is not quite so easy when we question is not quite so easy when we question is not quite so easy when we proceed to ask whether these principles proceed to ask whether these principles proceed to ask whether these principles are three or one whether that is to say

are three or one whether that is to say are three or one whether that is to say we learn with one part of our nature or we learn with one part of our nature or we learn with one part of our nature or angry with another and with a third part angry with another and with a third part angry with another and with a third part desire the satisfaction of our natural desire the satisfaction of our natural desire the satisfaction of our natural appetites or whether the whole soul appetites or whether the whole soul appetites or whether the whole soul comes into play in each sort of action comes into play in each sort of action comes into play in each sort of action to determine that is the difficulty yes to determine that is the difficulty yes to determine that is the difficulty yes he said there lies the difficulty then he said there lies the difficulty then he said there lies the difficulty then let us now try and determine whether let us now try and determine whether let us now try and determine whether they are the same or different how can they are the same or different how can they are the same or different how can we yes I replied as follows the same we yes I replied as follows the same we yes I replied as follows the same thing clearly cannot act or be acted thing clearly cannot act or be acted thing clearly cannot act or be acted apart in the same part or in relation to apart in the same part or in relation to apart in the same part or in relation to the same thing at the same time in the same thing at the same time in the same thing at the same time in contrary ways and therefore whatever contrary ways and therefore whatever contrary ways and therefore whatever this contradiction occurs in things this contradiction occurs in things this contradiction occurs in things apparently the same we know that they apparently the same we know that they apparently the same we know that they are really not the same but different are really not the same but different are really not the same but different good for example I said can the same good for example I said can the same good for example I said can the same thing be at rest and in motion at the thing be at rest and in motion at the thing be at rest and in motion at the same time in the same part or impossible same time in the same part or impossible same time in the same part or impossible I said let us have a more precise I said let us have a more precise I said let us have a more precise statement of terms lest we should statement of terms lest we should statement of terms lest we should hereafter fall out by the way imagine hereafter fall out by the way imagine hereafter fall out by the way imagine the case of a man who was standing and the case of a man who was standing and the case of a man who was standing and also moving his hands and his head and also moving his hands and his head and also moving his hands and his head and suppose a person to say that one and the suppose a person to say that one and the suppose a person to say that one and the same person is in motion and at rest at same person is in motion and at rest at same person is in motion and at rest at the same moment - such a mode of speech the same moment - such a mode of speech the same moment - such a mode of speech we should object and should rather say we should object and should rather say we should object and should rather say that one part of him is in motion while

that one part of him is in motion while that one part of him is in motion while another is at rest very true and suppose another is at rest very true and suppose another is at rest very true and suppose the objector to refine still further and the objector to refine still further and the objector to refine still further and to draw the nice distinction that not to draw the nice distinction that not to draw the nice distinction that not only parts of tops but whole tops when only parts of tops but whole tops when only parts of tops but whole tops when they spin round with their pegs fixed on they spin round with their pegs fixed on they spin round with their pegs fixed on the spot are at rest and in motion at the spot are at rest and in motion at the spot are at rest and in motion at the same time and he may say the same of the same time and he may say the same of the same time and he may say the same of anything which revolves in the same spot anything which revolves in the same spot anything which revolves in the same spot his objection would not be admitted by his objection would not be admitted by his objection would not be admitted by us because in such cases things are not us because in such cases things are not us because in such cases things are not at rest and in motion in the same parts at rest and in motion in the same parts at rest and in motion in the same parts of themselves we should rather say that of themselves we should rather say that of themselves we should rather say that they have both an axis and a they have both an axis and a they have both an axis and a circumference and that the axis stand circumference and that the axis stand circumference and that the axis stand still for there is no deviation from the still for there is no deviation from the still for there is no deviation from the perpendicular and that the circumference perpendicular and that the circumference perpendicular and that the circumference goes around but if while revolving the goes around but if while revolving the goes around but if while revolving the axis inclines either to the right or axis inclines either to the right or axis inclines either to the right or left forwards or backwards then in no left forwards or backwards then in no left forwards or backwards then in no point of view can they be at rest that point of view can they be at rest that point of view can they be at rest that is the correct mode of describing them is the correct mode of describing them is the correct mode of describing them he replied then none of these objections he replied then none of these objections he replied then none of these objections will confuse us or incline us to believe will confuse us or incline us to believe will confuse us or incline us to believe that the same thing at the same time in that the same thing at the same time in that the same thing at the same time in the same part or in relation to the same the same part or in relation to the same the same part or in relation to the same thing can act or be acted upon in thing can act or be acted upon in thing can act or be acted upon in contrary ways but certainly not contrary ways but certainly not contrary ways but certainly not according to my way of thinking yet according to my way of thinking yet according to my way of thinking yet I said that we may not be compelled to I said that we may not be compelled to I said that we may not be compelled to examine all such objections and prove at examine all such objections and prove at examine all such objections and prove at length that they are untrue let us

length that they are untrue let us length that they are untrue let us assume their absurdity and go forward on assume their absurdity and go forward on assume their absurdity and go forward on the understanding that hereafter if this the understanding that hereafter if this the understanding that hereafter if this assumption turned out to be untrue all assumption turned out to be untrue all assumption turned out to be untrue all the consequences which follow shall be the consequences which follow shall be the consequences which follow shall be withdrawn withdrawn withdrawn yes he said that will be the best way yes he said that will be the best way yes he said that will be the best way well I said would you not allow that well I said would you not allow that well I said would you not allow that ascent and descent desire and aversion ascent and descent desire and aversion ascent and descent desire and aversion attraction and repulsion are all of them attraction and repulsion are all of them attraction and repulsion are all of them opposites whether they are regarded as opposites whether they are regarded as opposites whether they are regarded as active or passive for that makes no active or passive for that makes no active or passive for that makes no difference in the fact of their difference in the fact of their difference in the fact of their opposition yes he said they are opposition yes he said they are opposition yes he said they are opposites well I said and hunger and opposites well I said and hunger and opposites well I said and hunger and thirst and the desires in general and thirst and the desires in general and thirst and the desires in general and again willing and wishing all these you again willing and wishing all these you again willing and wishing all these you would refer to the classes already would refer to the classes already would refer to the classes already mentioned you would say would you not mentioned you would say would you not mentioned you would say would you not that the sole of him who desires is that the sole of him who desires is that the sole of him who desires is seeking after the object of his desire seeking after the object of his desire seeking after the object of his desire or that he is drawing to himself the or that he is drawing to himself the or that he is drawing to himself the thing which he wishes to possess or thing which he wishes to possess or thing which he wishes to possess or again when a person wants anything to be again when a person wants anything to be again when a person wants anything to be given him his mind longing for the given him his mind longing for the given him his mind longing for the realization of his desire intimates his realization of his desire intimates his realization of his desire intimates his wish to have it by a nod of assent as if wish to have it by a nod of assent as if wish to have it by a nod of assent as if he had been asked a question very true he had been asked a question very true he had been asked a question very true and what would you say of unwillingness and what would you say of unwillingness and what would you say of unwillingness and dislike and the absence of desire and dislike and the absence of desire and dislike and the absence of desire should not these be referred to the should not these be referred to the should not these be referred to the opposite class of repulsion and opposite class of repulsion and opposite class of repulsion and rejection certainly admitting this to be

rejection certainly admitting this to be rejection certainly admitting this to be true of desire generally let us suppose true of desire generally let us suppose true of desire generally let us suppose a particular class of desires and out of a particular class of desires and out of a particular class of desires and out of these we will select hunger and thirst these we will select hunger and thirst these we will select hunger and thirst as they are termed which are the most as they are termed which are the most as they are termed which are the most obvious of them let us take that class obvious of them let us take that class obvious of them let us take that class he said the object of one is food and of he said the object of one is food and of he said the object of one is food and of the other drink yes and here comes the the other drink yes and here comes the the other drink yes and here comes the point it's not thirst the desire which point it's not thirst the desire which point it's not thirst the desire which the soul has of drink and of drink only the soul has of drink and of drink only the soul has of drink and of drink only not of drink qualified by anything else not of drink qualified by anything else not of drink qualified by anything else for example warm or cold or much or for example warm or cold or much or for example warm or cold or much or little or in a word drink of any little or in a word drink of any little or in a word drink of any particular sort but if the thirst be particular sort but if the thirst be particular sort but if the thirst be accompanied by heat then the desire is accompanied by heat then the desire is accompanied by heat then the desire is of cold drink or if a company by cold of cold drink or if a company by cold of cold drink or if a company by cold than of warm drink or if the thirst be than of warm drink or if the thirst be than of warm drink or if the thirst be excessive then the drink which is excessive then the drink which is excessive then the drink which is desired will be desired will be desired will be but if not great the quantity of drink but if not great the quantity of drink but if not great the quantity of drink will also be small but thirst pure and will also be small but thirst pure and will also be small but thirst pure and simple will desire drink pure and simple simple will desire drink pure and simple simple will desire drink pure and simple which is the natural selection of versed which is the natural selection of versed which is the natural selection of versed as food is of hunger yes he said the as food is of hunger yes he said the as food is of hunger yes he said the simple desire is as you say in every simple desire is as you say in every simple desire is as you say in every case of the simple object and the case of the simple object and the case of the simple object and the qualified desire of the qualified object qualified desire of the qualified object qualified desire of the qualified object but here a confusion may arise and I but here a confusion may arise and I but here a confusion may arise and I should wish to guard against an opponent should wish to guard against an opponent should wish to guard against an opponent starting up and saying that no man starting up and saying that no man starting up and saying that no man desires drink only but good drink or

desires drink only but good drink or desires drink only but good drink or food only but good food for good is the food only but good food for good is the food only but good food for good is the universal object of desire and thirst universal object of desire and thirst universal object of desire and thirst being a desire will necessarily be being a desire will necessarily be being a desire will necessarily be thirst after good drink and the same is thirst after good drink and the same is thirst after good drink and the same is true of every other desire yes replied true of every other desire yes replied true of every other desire yes replied the opponent might have something to say the opponent might have something to say the opponent might have something to say nevertheless I should still maintain nevertheless I should still maintain nevertheless I should still maintain that of relatives some have a quality that of relatives some have a quality that of relatives some have a quality attached to either term of the relation attached to either term of the relation attached to either term of the relation others are simple and have their others are simple and have their others are simple and have their comparatives simple I do not know what comparatives simple I do not know what comparatives simple I do not know what do you mean well you know of course that do you mean well you know of course that do you mean well you know of course that the greater is relative to the less or the greater is relative to the less or the greater is relative to the less or suddenly and the much greater to the suddenly and the much greater to the suddenly and the much greater to the much less yes and the sometime greater much less yes and the sometime greater much less yes and the sometime greater to the sometime less and the greater to the sometime less and the greater to the sometime less and the greater that is to be to the less that is to be that is to be to the less that is to be that is to be to the less that is to be certainly he said and so of more and certainly he said and so of more and certainly he said and so of more and less and of other correlative terms such less and of other correlative terms such less and of other correlative terms such as the double and the half or again the as the double and the half or again the as the double and the half or again the heavier and the lighter the swifter of heavier and the lighter the swifter of heavier and the lighter the swifter of the slower and of hot and cold and of the slower and of hot and cold and of the slower and of hot and cold and of any other relatives is not this true of any other relatives is not this true of any other relatives is not this true of all of them yes and does not the same all of them yes and does not the same all of them yes and does not the same principle hold in the sciences the principle hold in the sciences the principle hold in the sciences the object of science is knowledge assuming object of science is knowledge assuming object of science is knowledge assuming that to be the true definition but the that to be the true definition but the that to be the true definition but the object of a particular science is a object of a particular science is a object of a particular science is a particular kind of knowledge I mean for particular kind of knowledge I mean for particular kind of knowledge I mean for example that the science of house example that the science of house example that the science of house building is a kind of knowledge which is

building is a kind of knowledge which is building is a kind of knowledge which is defined and distinguished from other defined and distinguished from other defined and distinguished from other kinds and is therefore termed kinds and is therefore termed kinds and is therefore termed architecture architecture architecture certainly because it has a particular certainly because it has a particular certainly because it has a particular quality which no other has yes and it quality which no other has yes and it quality which no other has yes and it has this particular quality because it has this particular quality because it has this particular quality because it has an object of a particular kind and has an object of a particular kind and has an object of a particular kind and this is true of the other Arts and this is true of the other Arts and this is true of the other Arts and Sciences yes now then if I made myself Sciences yes now then if I made myself Sciences yes now then if I made myself clear you will understand my original clear you will understand my original clear you will understand my original meaning in what I said about relatives meaning in what I said about relatives meaning in what I said about relatives my meaning was that if one term of up my meaning was that if one term of up my meaning was that if one term of up relation is taken alone the other is relation is taken alone the other is relation is taken alone the other is taken alone taken alone taken alone if one term is qualified the other is if one term is qualified the other is if one term is qualified the other is also qualified I do not mean to say that also qualified I do not mean to say that also qualified I do not mean to say that relatives may not be desperate or that relatives may not be desperate or that relatives may not be desperate or that the science of health is healthy or of the science of health is healthy or of the science of health is healthy or of disease necessarily disease or that the disease necessarily disease or that the disease necessarily disease or that the scientists of good and evil are there scientists of good and evil are there scientists of good and evil are there for good and evil but only that when the for good and evil but only that when the for good and evil but only that when the term science is no longer used term science is no longer used term science is no longer used absolutely but has a qualified object absolutely but has a qualified object absolutely but has a qualified object which in this case is the nature of which in this case is the nature of which in this case is the nature of health and disease it becomes defined health and disease it becomes defined health and disease it becomes defined and is hence called not merely science and is hence called not merely science and is hence called not merely science but the science of medicine I quite but the science of medicine I quite but the science of medicine I quite understand and I think as you do would understand and I think as you do would understand and I think as you do would you not say that thirst is one of these you not say that thirst is one of these you not say that thirst is one of these essentially relative terms having essentially relative terms having essentially relative terms having clearly a relation yes clearly a relation yes clearly a relation yes thirst is relative to drink and a thirst is relative to drink and a thirst is relative to drink and a certain kind of thirst is relative to a

certain kind of thirst is relative to a certain kind of thirst is relative to a certain kind of drink but first taken certain kind of drink but first taken certain kind of drink but first taken alone is neither of much nor little nor alone is neither of much nor little nor alone is neither of much nor little nor of good nor bad nor of any particular of good nor bad nor of any particular of good nor bad nor of any particular kind of drink but of drink only kind of drink but of drink only kind of drink but of drink only certainly then the soul of the thirsty certainly then the soul of the thirsty certainly then the soul of the thirsty one insofar as he is thirsty desires one insofar as he is thirsty desires one insofar as he is thirsty desires only drink for this he yearns and tries only drink for this he yearns and tries only drink for this he yearns and tries to obtain it without his plane and if to obtain it without his plane and if to obtain it without his plane and if you suppose something which pulls a you suppose something which pulls a you suppose something which pulls a thirsty soul away from drink that must thirsty soul away from drink that must thirsty soul away from drink that must be different from the thirsty principle be different from the thirsty principle be different from the thirsty principle which draws him like a beast to drink which draws him like a beast to drink which draws him like a beast to drink for as we were saying the same thing for as we were saying the same thing for as we were saying the same thing cannot at the same time with the same cannot at the same time with the same cannot at the same time with the same part of itself acted contrary ways about part of itself acted contrary ways about part of itself acted contrary ways about the same impossible no more than you can the same impossible no more than you can the same impossible no more than you can say that the hands say that the hands say that the hands of the arch of push and pulled the bow of the arch of push and pulled the bow of the arch of push and pulled the bow at the same time but what you say is at the same time but what you say is at the same time but what you say is that one hand pushes and the other pulls that one hand pushes and the other pulls that one hand pushes and the other pulls exactly so we replied and might a man be exactly so we replied and might a man be exactly so we replied and might a man be thirsty and yet unwilling to drink yes thirsty and yet unwilling to drink yes thirsty and yet unwilling to drink yes he said it constantly happens and in he said it constantly happens and in he said it constantly happens and in such a case what is one to say would you such a case what is one to say would you such a case what is one to say would you not say that there was something in the not say that there was something in the not say that there was something in the soul bidding a man to drink and soul bidding a man to drink and soul bidding a man to drink and something else forbidding him which is something else forbidding him which is something else forbidding him which is other and stronger than the principle other and stronger than the principle other and stronger than the principle which bids him I should say so and the which bids him I should say so and the which bids him I should say so and the forbidding principle is derived from forbidding principle is derived from forbidding principle is derived from reason and that which bids and attracts

reason and that which bids and attracts reason and that which bids and attracts proceeds from passion and disease proceeds from passion and disease proceeds from passion and disease clearly then we may fairly assume that clearly then we may fairly assume that clearly then we may fairly assume that they are - and that they differ from one they are - and that they differ from one they are - and that they differ from one another the one with which a man reasons another the one with which a man reasons another the one with which a man reasons we may call the rational principle of we may call the rational principle of we may call the rational principle of the soul the other we may call the the soul the other we may call the the soul the other we may call the rational principle of the soul the other rational principle of the soul the other rational principle of the soul the other with which he loves and hungers and with which he loves and hungers and with which he loves and hungers and thirsts and feels the flutterings of any thirsts and feels the flutterings of any thirsts and feels the flutterings of any other desire may be termed the other desire may be termed the other desire may be termed the irrational or appetitive the ally of irrational or appetitive the ally of irrational or appetitive the ally of sundry pleasures and satisfactions yes sundry pleasures and satisfactions yes sundry pleasures and satisfactions yes he said we may fairly assume them to be he said we may fairly assume them to be he said we may fairly assume them to be different then let us finally determine different then let us finally determine different then let us finally determine that there are two principles existing that there are two principles existing that there are two principles existing in the soul and what of passion or in the soul and what of passion or in the soul and what of passion or spirit is it a third or akin to one of spirit is it a third or akin to one of spirit is it a third or akin to one of the preceding I should be inclined to the preceding I should be inclined to the preceding I should be inclined to say akin to desire ah I said there is a say akin to desire ah I said there is a say akin to desire ah I said there is a story which I remember to have heard and story which I remember to have heard and story which I remember to have heard and in which I put faith the story is that in which I put faith the story is that in which I put faith the story is that lay on Deus the son of a lion coming up lay on Deus the son of a lion coming up lay on Deus the son of a lion coming up one day from the Piraeus under the north one day from the Piraeus under the north one day from the Piraeus under the north wall on the outside observed some dead wall on the outside observed some dead wall on the outside observed some dead bodies lying on the ground at the place bodies lying on the ground at the place bodies lying on the ground at the place of execution he felt a desire to see of execution he felt a desire to see of execution he felt a desire to see them and also a dread and abhorrence of them and also a dread and abhorrence of them and also a dread and abhorrence of them for a time he struggled and covered them for a time he struggled and covered them for a time he struggled and covered his eyes but at length the desire got

his eyes but at length the desire got his eyes but at length the desire got the better the better the better and forcing them open he ran up to the and forcing them open he ran up to the and forcing them open he ran up to the dead bodies saying look ye wretches take dead bodies saying look ye wretches take dead bodies saying look ye wretches take your fill of the fair sight I have heard your fill of the fair sight I have heard your fill of the fair sight I have heard the story myself the story myself the story myself he said the moral of the tale is that he said the moral of the tale is that he said the moral of the tale is that anger at times goes to war with desire anger at times goes to war with desire anger at times goes to war with desire as though they were two distinct things as though they were two distinct things as though they were two distinct things yes that is the meaning he said and are yes that is the meaning he said and are yes that is the meaning he said and are there not many other cases in which we there not many other cases in which we there not many other cases in which we observed that when a man's desires have observed that when a man's desires have observed that when a man's desires have violently prevailed over his reason he violently prevailed over his reason he violently prevailed over his reason he reviles himself and is angry at the reviles himself and is angry at the reviles himself and is angry at the violence within him and that in this violence within him and that in this violence within him and that in this struggle which is like the struggle of struggle which is like the struggle of struggle which is like the struggle of factions in the state his spirit is on factions in the state his spirit is on factions in the state his spirit is on the side of his reason but for the the side of his reason but for the the side of his reason but for the passionate or spirited element to take passionate or spirited element to take passionate or spirited element to take part with the desires when reason part with the desires when reason part with the desires when reason decides that she should not be opposed decides that she should not be opposed decides that she should not be opposed is a sort of thing which I believe that is a sort of thing which I believe that is a sort of thing which I believe that you never observed occurring in yourself you never observed occurring in yourself you never observed occurring in yourself nor as I should imagine at anyone else nor as I should imagine at anyone else nor as I should imagine at anyone else certainly not suppose that a man thinks certainly not suppose that a man thinks certainly not suppose that a man thinks he has done a wrong to another the he has done a wrong to another the he has done a wrong to another the nobler he is the less able he is to feel nobler he is the less able he is to feel nobler he is the less able he is to feel indignant at any suffering such as indignant at any suffering such as indignant at any suffering such as hunger or cold or any other pain which hunger or cold or any other pain which hunger or cold or any other pain which the injured person may inflict upon him the injured person may inflict upon him the injured person may inflict upon him the ease he deems to be just and as I the ease he deems to be just and as I the ease he deems to be just and as I say his anger refuses to be excited by say his anger refuses to be excited by say his anger refuses to be excited by them true he said but when he thinks

them true he said but when he thinks them true he said but when he thinks that he is the sufferer of the wrong that he is the sufferer of the wrong that he is the sufferer of the wrong then he boils and chafes then he boils and chafes then he boils and chafes and is on the side of what he believes and is on the side of what he believes and is on the side of what he believes to be justice and because he suffers to be justice and because he suffers to be justice and because he suffers hunger or cold or other pain he is only hunger or cold or other pain he is only hunger or cold or other pain he is only the more determined to persevere and the more determined to persevere and the more determined to persevere and conquer his noble spirit will not be conquer his noble spirit will not be conquer his noble spirit will not be quelled and telling either slays or de quelled and telling either slays or de quelled and telling either slays or de slain or until he hears the voice of the slain or until he hears the voice of the slain or until he hears the voice of the Shepherd that is reason bidding his dog Shepherd that is reason bidding his dog Shepherd that is reason bidding his dog bark no more the illustration is perfect bark no more the illustration is perfect bark no more the illustration is perfect he replied and in our state as we were he replied and in our state as we were he replied and in our state as we were saying the auxiliaries were to bid dogs saying the auxiliaries were to bid dogs saying the auxiliaries were to bid dogs and to hear the voice of the rulers who and to hear the voice of the rulers who and to hear the voice of the rulers who are their shepherds are their shepherds are their shepherds I perceive I said that you quite I perceive I said that you quite I perceive I said that you quite understand me there is however a further understand me there is however a further understand me there is however a further point which I wish to consider at what point which I wish to consider at what point which I wish to consider at what point you remember that passion or point you remember that passion or point you remember that passion or spirit appeared at first sight to be a spirit appeared at first sight to be a spirit appeared at first sight to be a kind of desire but now we should say kind of desire but now we should say kind of desire but now we should say quite the contrary for in the conflict quite the contrary for in the conflict quite the contrary for in the conflict of the soul spirit is a raid on the side of the soul spirit is a raid on the side of the soul spirit is a raid on the side of the rational principle most assuredly of the rational principle most assuredly of the rational principle most assuredly but a further question arises is passion but a further question arises is passion but a further question arises is passion different from reason also or only a different from reason also or only a different from reason also or only a kind of reason in which latter case kind of reason in which latter case kind of reason in which latter case instead of three principles in the soul instead of three principles in the soul instead of three principles in the soul there will be only two the rational and there will be only two the rational and there will be only two the rational and the concupiscent or rather as the state the concupiscent or rather as the state the concupiscent or rather as the state was composed of three classes traders

was composed of three classes traders was composed of three classes traders auxiliaries counselors so may there not auxiliaries counselors so may there not auxiliaries counselors so may there not be in the individual soul a third be in the individual soul a third be in the individual soul a third element which is passion or spirit and element which is passion or spirit and element which is passion or spirit and were not corrupted by bad education is were not corrupted by bad education is were not corrupted by bad education is the natural auxiliary of reason yes he the natural auxiliary of reason yes he the natural auxiliary of reason yes he said there must be a third yes I replied said there must be a third yes I replied said there must be a third yes I replied if passion which has already been shown if passion which has already been shown if passion which has already been shown to be different from desire turns out to be different from desire turns out to be different from desire turns out also to be different from reason but also to be different from reason but also to be different from reason but that is easily proved we may observe that is easily proved we may observe that is easily proved we may observe even in young children that they are even in young children that they are even in young children that they are full of spirit almost as soon as they full of spirit almost as soon as they full of spirit almost as soon as they are born whereas some of them never seem are born whereas some of them never seem are born whereas some of them never seem to attain the use of reason and most of to attain the use of reason and most of to attain the use of reason and most of them late enough excellent I said and them late enough excellent I said and them late enough excellent I said and you may see passion equally a brood you may see passion equally a brood you may see passion equally a brood animals which is a further proof of the animals which is a further proof of the animals which is a further proof of the truth of what you are saying and we may truth of what you are saying and we may truth of what you are saying and we may once more appeal to the words of Homer once more appeal to the words of Homer once more appeal to the words of Homer which have already been quoted by us he which have already been quoted by us he which have already been quoted by us he smote his breast and thus rebuked his smote his breast and thus rebuked his smote his breast and thus rebuked his soul for in this verse Homer has clearly soul for in this verse Homer has clearly soul for in this verse Homer has clearly supposed the power which reasons about supposed the power which reasons about supposed the power which reasons about the better and worse to be different the better and worse to be different the better and worse to be different from the unreasoning anger which is from the unreasoning anger which is from the unreasoning anger which is rebuked by it very true he said rebuked by it very true he said rebuked by it very true he said and so after much tossing we and so after much tossing we and so after much tossing we have reached land and our family agreed have reached land and our family agreed have reached land and our family agreed that the same principles which exist in that the same principles which exist in that the same principles which exist in the state exist also in the individual the state exist also in the individual the state exist also in the individual and that they are three at number

and that they are three at number and that they are three at number exactly must we not then infer that the exactly must we not then infer that the exactly must we not then infer that the individual is wise in the same way and individual is wise in the same way and individual is wise in the same way and in virtue of the same quality which in virtue of the same quality which in virtue of the same quality which makes the state wise certainly also that makes the state wise certainly also that makes the state wise certainly also that the same quality which constitutes the same quality which constitutes the same quality which constitutes courage in the state constitutes courage courage in the state constitutes courage courage in the state constitutes courage in the individual and that both the in the individual and that both the in the individual and that both the state and the individual bear the same state and the individual bear the same state and the individual bear the same relation to all the other virtues relation to all the other virtues relation to all the other virtues assuredly and the individual will be assuredly and the individual will be assuredly and the individual will be acknowledged by us to be just in the acknowledged by us to be just in the acknowledged by us to be just in the same way in which the state is just well same way in which the state is just well same way in which the state is just well that follows of course we cannot but that follows of course we cannot but that follows of course we cannot but remember that the justice of the state remember that the justice of the state remember that the justice of the state consisted in each of the three classes consisted in each of the three classes consisted in each of the three classes doing the work of its own class we are doing the work of its own class we are doing the work of its own class we are not very likely to have forgotten he not very likely to have forgotten he not very likely to have forgotten he said we must recollect that the said we must recollect that the said we must recollect that the individual in whom the several qualities individual in whom the several qualities individual in whom the several qualities of his nature do their own work will be of his nature do their own work will be of his nature do their own work will be just and will do his own work yes he just and will do his own work yes he just and will do his own work yes he said we must remember that too and are said we must remember that too and are said we must remember that too and are not the rational principle which is wise not the rational principle which is wise not the rational principle which is wise and has the care of the whole soul to and has the care of the whole soul to and has the care of the whole soul to rule and the passionate or spirited rule and the passionate or spirited rule and the passionate or spirited principle to be the subject in a lie principle to be the subject in a lie principle to be the subject in a lie certainly and as we were saying the certainly and as we were saying the certainly and as we were saying the United influence of music and gymnastic United influence of music and gymnastic United influence of music and gymnastic will bring them into accord nerving and will bring them into accord nerving and will bring them into accord nerving and sustaining the reason with noble words sustaining the reason with noble words sustaining the reason with noble words and lessons and moderating and soothing and lessons and moderating and soothing and lessons and moderating and soothing and civilizing the wildness of passion

and civilizing the wildness of passion and civilizing the wildness of passion by harmony and rhythm quite true he said by harmony and rhythm quite true he said by harmony and rhythm quite true he said and these two thus nurtured and educated and these two thus nurtured and educated and these two thus nurtured and educated and having learned truly to know their and having learned truly to know their and having learned truly to know their own functions will rule over the own functions will rule over the own functions will rule over the concupiscent which in each of us is the concupiscent which in each of us is the concupiscent which in each of us is the largest part of the soul and by nature largest part of the soul and by nature largest part of the soul and by nature most insatiable of gain over this they most insatiable of gain over this they most insatiable of gain over this they will keep guard blessed will keep guard blessed will keep guard blessed waxey great and strong with a fullness waxey great and strong with a fullness waxey great and strong with a fullness of bodily pleasures as they are termed of bodily pleasures as they are termed of bodily pleasures as they are termed the concupiscent soul no longer confined the concupiscent soul no longer confined the concupiscent soul no longer confined to her own sphere should attempt to to her own sphere should attempt to to her own sphere should attempt to enslave and rule those who are not her enslave and rule those who are not her enslave and rule those who are not her natural-born subjects and overturned the natural-born subjects and overturned the natural-born subjects and overturned the whole life of man very true he said both whole life of man very true he said both whole life of man very true he said both together will they not to be the best together will they not to be the best together will they not to be the best defenders of the whole soul and the defenders of the whole soul and the defenders of the whole soul and the whole body against the tax from without whole body against the tax from without whole body against the tax from without the one counselling and the other the one counselling and the other the one counselling and the other fighting under his leader and fighting under his leader and fighting under his leader and courageously executing his commands and courageously executing his commands and courageously executing his commands and counsels true and he is to be deemed counsels true and he is to be deemed counsels true and he is to be deemed courageous whose spirit retains in courageous whose spirit retains in courageous whose spirit retains in pleasure and in pain the commands of pleasure and in pain the commands of pleasure and in pain the commands of reason about what he ought or ought not reason about what he ought or ought not reason about what he ought or ought not to fear right they replied and him we to fear right they replied and him we to fear right they replied and him we will call wise who has indicated that will call wise who has indicated that will call wise who has indicated that little part which rules and which little part which rules and which little part which rules and which proclaims these commands that part to proclaims these commands that part to proclaims these commands that part to being supposed to have a knowledge of being supposed to have a knowledge of being supposed to have a knowledge of what is for the interest of each of the

what is for the interest of each of the what is for the interest of each of the three parts and of the whole assuredly three parts and of the whole assuredly three parts and of the whole assuredly and would you not say that he is and would you not say that he is and would you not say that he is temperate who has the same elements in temperate who has the same elements in temperate who has the same elements in friendly harmony and whom the one ruling friendly harmony and whom the one ruling friendly harmony and whom the one ruling principle of Reason and the two subject principle of Reason and the two subject principle of Reason and the two subject ones of spirit and desire are equally ones of spirit and desire are equally ones of spirit and desire are equally agreed that reason ought to rule and do agreed that reason ought to rule and do agreed that reason ought to rule and do not rebel certainly he said that is the not rebel certainly he said that is the not rebel certainly he said that is the true account of temperance whether in true account of temperance whether in true account of temperance whether in the state or individual and surely I the state or individual and surely I the state or individual and surely I said we have just explained again and said we have just explained again and said we have just explained again and again how and by virtue of what quality again how and by virtue of what quality again how and by virtue of what quality a man will be just that is very certain a man will be just that is very certain a man will be just that is very certain and it's justice dimmer in the and it's justice dimmer in the and it's justice dimmer in the individual and is her form different or individual and is her form different or individual and is her form different or is she the same which we found her to be is she the same which we found her to be is she the same which we found her to be in the state there is no difference in in the state there is no difference in in the state there is no difference in my opinion he said because if any doubt my opinion he said because if any doubt my opinion he said because if any doubt is still lingering in our minds a few is still lingering in our minds a few is still lingering in our minds a few commonplace instances will satisfy us of commonplace instances will satisfy us of commonplace instances will satisfy us of the truth of what I am saying the truth of what I am saying the truth of what I am saying what sort of instances do you mean if what sort of instances do you mean if what sort of instances do you mean if the case is put to us we must not admit the case is put to us we must not admit the case is put to us we must not admit that the just state or the that the just state or the that the just state or the who is trained in the principles of such who is trained in the principles of such who is trained in the principles of such a state will be less likely than the a state will be less likely than the a state will be less likely than the unjust to make away with a deposit of unjust to make away with a deposit of unjust to make away with a deposit of gold or silver would anyone deny this no gold or silver would anyone deny this no gold or silver would anyone deny this no one here applied will the just man or one here applied will the just man or one here applied will the just man or citizen ever be guilty of sacrilege or

citizen ever be guilty of sacrilege or citizen ever be guilty of sacrilege or theft or treachery either to his friends theft or treachery either to his friends theft or treachery either to his friends or to his country never neither will he or to his country never neither will he or to his country never neither will he ever break faith where there have been ever break faith where there have been ever break faith where there have been Earth's or agreements impossible no one Earth's or agreements impossible no one Earth's or agreements impossible no one will be less likely to commit adultery will be less likely to commit adultery will be less likely to commit adultery or to dishonor his father and mother or or to dishonor his father and mother or or to dishonor his father and mother or to fail in his religious duties no one to fail in his religious duties no one to fail in his religious duties no one and the reason is that each part of him and the reason is that each part of him and the reason is that each part of him is doing its own business whether in is doing its own business whether in is doing its own business whether in ruling or being ruled exactly so are you ruling or being ruled exactly so are you ruling or being ruled exactly so are you satisfied then that the quality which satisfied then that the quality which satisfied then that the quality which makes such men and such States is makes such men and such States is makes such men and such States is justice or do you hope to discover some justice or do you hope to discover some justice or do you hope to discover some other but not I indeed then our dream other but not I indeed then our dream other but not I indeed then our dream has been realized and the suspicion has been realized and the suspicion has been realized and the suspicion which we entertained at the beginning of which we entertained at the beginning of which we entertained at the beginning of our work of construction that some our work of construction that some our work of construction that some divine power must have conducted us to a divine power must have conducted us to a divine power must have conducted us to a primary form of justice has now been primary form of justice has now been primary form of justice has now been verified yes certainly verified yes certainly verified yes certainly and the division of labor which required and the division of labor which required and the division of labor which required the carpenter and the shoemaker and the the carpenter and the shoemaker and the the carpenter and the shoemaker and the rest of the citizens to be doing each rest of the citizens to be doing each rest of the citizens to be doing each his own business said not another's was his own business said not another's was his own business said not another's was a shadow of justice and for that reason a shadow of justice and for that reason a shadow of justice and for that reason it was abuse clearly but in reality it was abuse clearly but in reality it was abuse clearly but in reality justice was such as we were describing justice was such as we were describing justice was such as we were describing being concerned however not with the being concerned however not with the being concerned however not with the outward man but with the inward which is outward man but with the inward which is outward man but with the inward which is the true self and concernment of man for the true self and concernment of man for the true self and concernment of man for the just man does not permit the several

the just man does not permit the several the just man does not permit the several elements within him to interfere with elements within him to interfere with elements within him to interfere with one another or any of them to do the one another or any of them to do the one another or any of them to do the work of others he sets in order his own work of others he sets in order his own work of others he sets in order his own inner life and is his own master and his inner life and is his own master and his inner life and is his own master and his own law and at peace with himself and own law and at peace with himself and own law and at peace with himself and when he has bound together the three when he has bound together the three when he has bound together the three principles within him which may be principles within him which may be principles within him which may be compared to the higher lower and middle compared to the higher lower and middle compared to the higher lower and middle notes of a scale and the intermediate notes of a scale and the intermediate notes of a scale and the intermediate intervals when he has bound all these intervals when he has bound all these intervals when he has bound all these together and is no longer many but has together and is no longer many but has together and is no longer many but has become one entirely temperance and become one entirely temperance and become one entirely temperance and perfectly adjusted nature then he perfectly adjusted nature then he perfectly adjusted nature then he proceeds to act if he has to act whether proceeds to act if he has to act whether proceeds to act if he has to act whether in a matter of property or the treatment in a matter of property or the treatment in a matter of property or the treatment of the body or in some affair of of the body or in some affair of of the body or in some affair of politics of private business always politics of private business always politics of private business always thinking and calling that which thinking and calling that which thinking and calling that which preserves and cooperates with this preserves and cooperates with this preserves and cooperates with this harmonious condition just and good harmonious condition just and good harmonious condition just and good action and the knowledge which presides action and the knowledge which presides action and the knowledge which presides over it wisdom and which at any time over it wisdom and which at any time over it wisdom and which at any time impairs this condition he will call impairs this condition he will call impairs this condition he will call unjust action and the opinion which unjust action and the opinion which unjust action and the opinion which presides over it ignorant you have said presides over it ignorant you have said presides over it ignorant you have said the exact truth Socrates very good and the exact truth Socrates very good and the exact truth Socrates very good and if we were to affirm that we had if we were to affirm that we had if we were to affirm that we had discovered the just man and the just discovered the just man and the just discovered the just man and the just state and the nature of justice in each state and the nature of justice in each state and the nature of justice in each of them we should not be telling a of them we should not be telling a of them we should not be telling a falsehood most certainly not many we say falsehood most certainly not many we say falsehood most certainly not many we say so then let us say so

so then let us say so so then let us say so and now I said injustice has to be and now I said injustice has to be and now I said injustice has to be considered considered considered clearly must not injustice be a strife clearly must not injustice be a strife clearly must not injustice be a strife which arises among the three principles which arises among the three principles which arises among the three principles of medal cygnus and interference and of medal cygnus and interference and of medal cygnus and interference and rising up of a part of the soul against rising up of a part of the soul against rising up of a part of the soul against the whole an assertion of unlawful the whole an assertion of unlawful the whole an assertion of unlawful Authority which is made by a rebellious Authority which is made by a rebellious Authority which is made by a rebellious subject against the true Prince of whom subject against the true Prince of whom subject against the true Prince of whom he is the natural vassal what is all he is the natural vassal what is all he is the natural vassal what is all this confusion and delusion but this confusion and delusion but this confusion and delusion but injustice and intemperance and cowardice injustice and intemperance and cowardice injustice and intemperance and cowardice and ignorance and every form of Vice and ignorance and every form of Vice and ignorance and every form of Vice exactly so and if the nature of justice exactly so and if the nature of justice exactly so and if the nature of justice and injustice be known then the meaning and injustice be known then the meaning and injustice be known then the meaning of acting unjustly and being unjust or of acting unjustly and being unjust or of acting unjustly and being unjust or again of acting justly will also be again of acting justly will also be again of acting justly will also be perfectly clear what do you mean perfectly clear what do you mean perfectly clear what do you mean he said why I said they are like disease he said why I said they are like disease he said why I said they are like disease and health being in the soul just what and health being in the soul just what and health being in the soul just what disease and health are in the body how disease and health are in the body how disease and health are in the body how so he said so he said so he said why I said that which is healthy causes why I said that which is healthy causes why I said that which is healthy causes health and that which is unhealthy health and that which is unhealthy health and that which is unhealthy causes disease yes and just actions causes disease yes and just actions causes disease yes and just actions cause justice and unjust actions cause cause justice and unjust actions cause cause justice and unjust actions cause injustice injustice injustice well that is certain and the creation of well that is certain and the creation of well that is certain and the creation of health is the institution of a natural health is the institution of a natural health is the institution of a natural order and government of one by another

order and government of one by another order and government of one by another in the parts of the body and the in the parts of the body and the in the parts of the body and the creation of disease is the production of creation of disease is the production of creation of disease is the production of a state of things at barriers with this a state of things at barriers with this a state of things at barriers with this natural order true and it's not the natural order true and it's not the natural order true and it's not the creation of Justice the institution of a creation of Justice the institution of a creation of Justice the institution of a natural order and government of one by natural order and government of one by natural order and government of one by another in the parts of the soul and the another in the parts of the soul and the another in the parts of the soul and the creation of injustice the production of creation of injustice the production of creation of injustice the production of a state of things at variance with the a state of things at variance with the a state of things at variance with the natural order exactly so he said their natural order exactly so he said their natural order exactly so he said their virtue is the health and beauty and virtue is the health and beauty and virtue is the health and beauty and well-being of the soul and vice the well-being of the soul and vice the well-being of the soul and vice the disease and weakness and deformity of disease and weakness and deformity of disease and weakness and deformity of the same true and do not good practices the same true and do not good practices the same true and do not good practices lead to virtue and evil practices to lead to virtue and evil practices to lead to virtue and evil practices to vice assuredly still our old question of vice assuredly still our old question of vice assuredly still our old question of the comparative advantage of justice and the comparative advantage of justice and the comparative advantage of justice and injustice has not been answered which is injustice has not been answered which is injustice has not been answered which is the more profitable to be just an act the more profitable to be just an act the more profitable to be just an act justly in practice virtue whether seen justly in practice virtue whether seen justly in practice virtue whether seen or unseen of gods and men or to be or unseen of gods and men or to be or unseen of gods and men or to be unjust and act unjustly unjust and act unjustly unjust and act unjustly if only unpunished and unreformed in my if only unpunished and unreformed in my if only unpunished and unreformed in my judgment Socrates the question has now judgment Socrates the question has now judgment Socrates the question has now become ridiculous we know that when the become ridiculous we know that when the become ridiculous we know that when the bodily Constitution is gone life is no bodily Constitution is gone life is no bodily Constitution is gone life is no longer and durable though pampered with longer and durable though pampered with longer and durable though pampered with all kinds of meats and drinks and having all kinds of meats and drinks and having all kinds of meats and drinks and having all wealth and all power and shall we be all wealth and all power and shall we be all wealth and all power and shall we be told that when the very essence of the told that when the very essence of the told that when the very essence of the vital principle is undermined and

vital principle is undermined and vital principle is undermined and corrupted life is still worth having to corrupted life is still worth having to corrupted life is still worth having to a man if only he be allowed to do a man if only he be allowed to do a man if only he be allowed to do whatever he likes with the single whatever he likes with the single whatever he likes with the single exception that he is not to acquire exception that he is not to acquire exception that he is not to acquire justice and virtue or to escape from justice and virtue or to escape from justice and virtue or to escape from injustice and vice assuming them both to injustice and vice assuming them both to injustice and vice assuming them both to be such as we have described yes I said be such as we have described yes I said be such as we have described yes I said question is as you say ridiculous still question is as you say ridiculous still question is as you say ridiculous still as we are near the spot at which we may as we are near the spot at which we may as we are near the spot at which we may see the truth in the clearest manner see the truth in the clearest manner see the truth in the clearest manner with our own eyes with our own eyes with our own eyes let us not faint by the way certainly let us not faint by the way certainly let us not faint by the way certainly not they replied come up hither I said not they replied come up hither I said not they replied come up hither I said and behold the various forms of Vice and behold the various forms of Vice and behold the various forms of Vice those of them I mean which are worth those of them I mean which are worth those of them I mean which are worth looking at I am following you he replied looking at I am following you he replied looking at I am following you he replied proceed I said the argument seems to proceed I said the argument seems to proceed I said the argument seems to have reached a height from which as from have reached a height from which as from have reached a height from which as from some tower of speculation a man may look some tower of speculation a man may look some tower of speculation a man may look down and see that virtue is one but that down and see that virtue is one but that down and see that virtue is one but that the forms of Vice are innumerable there the forms of Vice are innumerable there the forms of Vice are innumerable there being four special ones which are being four special ones which are being four special ones which are deserving of note but what do you mean deserving of note but what do you mean deserving of note but what do you mean he said I mean I replied that there he said I mean I replied that there he said I mean I replied that there appear to be as many forms of the soul appear to be as many forms of the soul appear to be as many forms of the soul as there are distinct forms of the state as there are distinct forms of the state as there are distinct forms of the state how many there are five of the state and how many there are five of the state and how many there are five of the state and five of the soul I said Oh what are they five of the soul I said Oh what are they five of the soul I said Oh what are they the first I said is that which we have

the first I said is that which we have the first I said is that which we have been describing and which may be said to been describing and which may be said to been describing and which may be said to have two names monarchy and aristocracy have two names monarchy and aristocracy have two names monarchy and aristocracy accordingly as rule is exercised by one accordingly as rule is exercised by one accordingly as rule is exercised by one distinguished man or by many true he distinguished man or by many true he distinguished man or by many true he replied but I regard the two names as describing but I regard the two names as describing one form only or whether the government one form only or whether the government one form only or whether the government is in the hands of one or many if the is in the hands of one or many if the is in the hands of one or many if the governors have been trained in the governors have been trained in the governors have been trained in the manner which we have supposed the manner which we have supposed the manner which we have supposed the fundamental laws of the state will be fundamental laws of the state will be fundamental laws of the state will be maintained that is true they replied