Plato's Republic Book 5

five part one of the Republic by Plato five part one of the Republic by Plato this LibriVox recording is in the public this LibriVox recording is in the public this LibriVox recording is in the public domain read by Bob Neufeld domain read by Bob Neufeld domain read by Bob Neufeld such is the good and true city or state such is the good and true city or state such is the good and true city or state and the good and true man is of the same and the good and true man is of the same and the good and true man is of the same pattern and if this is right every other pattern and if this is right every other pattern and if this is right every other is wrong and the evil is one which is wrong and the evil is one which is wrong and the evil is one which affects not only the ordering of the affects not only the ordering of the affects not only the ordering of the state but also the regulation of the state but also the regulation of the state but also the regulation of the individual soul and is exhibited in four individual soul and is exhibited in four individual soul and is exhibited in four forms what are they forms what are they forms what are they he said I was proceeding to tell the he said I was proceeding to tell the he said I was proceeding to tell the order in which the for evil forms order in which the for evil forms order in which the for evil forms appeared to me to succeed one another appeared to me to succeed one another appeared to me to succeed one another when Paulo Markus who were sitting a when Paulo Markus who were sitting a when Paulo Markus who were sitting a little way off just beyond our Montes little way off just beyond our Montes little way off just beyond our Montes began to whisper to him stretching forth began to whisper to him stretching forth began to whisper to him stretching forth his hand he took hold of the upper part his hand he took hold of the upper part his hand he took hold of the upper part of his coat by the shoulder and drew him of his coat by the shoulder and drew him of his coat by the shoulder and drew him towards him leading forward himself so towards him leading forward himself so towards him leading forward himself so as to be quite close and saying as to be quite close and saying as to be quite close and saying something in his ear of which I only something in his ear of which I only something in his ear of which I only caught the words shall we let him off or caught the words shall we let him off or caught the words shall we let him off or what shall we do certainly not said nada what shall we do certainly not said nada what shall we do certainly not said nada Montes raising his voice who is it I Montes raising his voice who is it I Montes raising his voice who is it I said whom you are refusing to let off said whom you are refusing to let off said whom you are refusing to let off you he said I repeated why am i you he said I repeated why am i you he said I repeated why am i especially not to be let off why he said especially not to be let off why he said especially not to be let off why he said we think that you are lazy and mean to we think that you are lazy and mean to we think that you are lazy and mean to cheat us out of a whole chapter which is cheat us out of a whole chapter which is cheat us out of a whole chapter which is a very important part of the story and a very important part of the story and a very important part of the story and you fancy that we shall not notice your you fancy that we shall not notice your you fancy that we shall not notice your Airy way of proceeding as if it were Airy way of proceeding as if it were Airy way of proceeding as if it were self-evident to everybody that in the

self-evident to everybody that in the self-evident to everybody that in the matter of women and children friends matter of women and children friends matter of women and children friends have all things in common have all things in common have all things in common and was I not right Ana Montes yes he and was I not right Ana Montes yes he and was I not right Ana Montes yes he said but what is right in this said but what is right in this said but what is right in this particular case like everything else particular case like everything else particular case like everything else requires to be explained for community requires to be explained for community requires to be explained for community may be of many kinds please therefore to may be of many kinds please therefore to may be of many kinds please therefore to say what sort of community you mean we say what sort of community you mean we say what sort of community you mean we have been long expecting that you would have been long expecting that you would have been long expecting that you would tell us something about the family life tell us something about the family life tell us something about the family life of your citizens how they will bring of your citizens how they will bring of your citizens how they will bring children into the world and rear them children into the world and rear them children into the world and rear them when they have arrived and in general when they have arrived and in general when they have arrived and in general what is the nature of this community of what is the nature of this community of what is the nature of this community of women and children for we are of opinion women and children for we are of opinion women and children for we are of opinion that the right or wrong management of that the right or wrong management of that the right or wrong management of such matters will have a great and such matters will have a great and such matters will have a great and paramount influence on the state for paramount influence on the state for paramount influence on the state for good or for evil and now since the good or for evil and now since the good or for evil and now since the question is still undetermined and you question is still undetermined and you question is still undetermined and you are taking in hand another state we have are taking in hand another state we have are taking in hand another state we have resolved as you heard not to let you go resolved as you heard not to let you go resolved as you heard not to let you go until you give an account of all this to until you give an account of all this to until you give an account of all this to that resolution said Glaucon you may that resolution said Glaucon you may that resolution said Glaucon you may regard me he is saying agreed regard me he is saying agreed regard me he is saying agreed and without more ado said tres amigas and without more ado said tres amigas and without more ado said tres amigas you may consider us all to be equally you may consider us all to be equally you may consider us all to be equally agreed agreed agreed I said you know not what you are doing I said you know not what you are doing I said you know not what you are doing and thus assailing me what an argument and thus assailing me what an argument and thus assailing me what an argument are you raising about the state just as are you raising about the state just as are you raising about the state just as I thought that I had finished and was I thought that I had finished and was I thought that I had finished and was only too glad that I had laid this only too glad that I had laid this only too glad that I had laid this question to sleep and was reflecting how question to sleep and was reflecting how question to sleep and was reflecting how fortunate I was in your acceptance of

fortunate I was in your acceptance of fortunate I was in your acceptance of what I then said you asked me to begin what I then said you asked me to begin what I then said you asked me to begin again at the very foundation ignorant of again at the very foundation ignorant of again at the very foundation ignorant of what a hornet's nest of words you are what a hornet's nest of words you are what a hornet's nest of words you are stirring now I first saw this gathering stirring now I first saw this gathering stirring now I first saw this gathering trouble and avoided it for what purpose trouble and avoided it for what purpose trouble and avoided it for what purpose do you conceive that we have come here do you conceive that we have come here do you conceive that we have come here said try separatist to look for gold or said try separatist to look for gold or said try separatist to look for gold or to hear discourse to hear discourse to hear discourse yes but discourse should have a limit yes but discourse should have a limit yes but discourse should have a limit yes Socrates said Glaucon and the whole yes Socrates said Glaucon and the whole yes Socrates said Glaucon and the whole of life is the only limit which wise men of life is the only limit which wise men of life is the only limit which wise men assigned to the hearing of such assigned to the hearing of such assigned to the hearing of such discourses but never mind about us take discourses but never mind about us take discourses but never mind about us take heart yourself and answer the question heart yourself and answer the question heart yourself and answer the question in your own way in your own way in your own way what sort of community of women and what sort of community of women and what sort of community of women and children is this which is to prevail children is this which is to prevail children is this which is to prevail among our guardians and how shall we among our guardians and how shall we among our guardians and how shall we manage the period between birth and manage the period between birth and manage the period between birth and education which seems to require the education which seems to require the education which seems to require the greatest care tell us how these things greatest care tell us how these things greatest care tell us how these things will be will be will be yes my simple friend but the answer is yes my simple friend but the answer is yes my simple friend but the answer is the reverse of easy many more doubts the reverse of easy many more doubts the reverse of easy many more doubts arise about this than about our previous arise about this than about our previous arise about this than about our previous conclusions or the practicability of conclusions or the practicability of conclusions or the practicability of what is said may be doubted and looked what is said may be doubted and looked what is said may be doubted and looked at in another point of view whether the at in another point of view whether the at in another point of view whether the scheme if ever so practicable would be scheme if ever so practicable would be scheme if ever so practicable would be for the best is also doubtful hence I for the best is also doubtful hence I for the best is also doubtful hence I feel a reluctance to approach the feel a reluctance to approach the feel a reluctance to approach the subject lest our aspiration my dear subject lest our aspiration my dear subject lest our aspiration my dear friend should turn out to be a dream friend should turn out to be a dream friend should turn out to be a dream only fair not be replied for your

only fair not be replied for your only fair not be replied for your audience will not be hard upon you they audience will not be hard upon you they audience will not be hard upon you they are not skeptical or hostile I said my are not skeptical or hostile I said my are not skeptical or hostile I said my good friend I suppose that you mean to good friend I suppose that you mean to good friend I suppose that you mean to encourage me by these words yes he said encourage me by these words yes he said encourage me by these words yes he said then let me tell you that you are doing then let me tell you that you are doing then let me tell you that you are doing just the reverse the encouragement which just the reverse the encouragement which just the reverse the encouragement which you offer would have been all very well you offer would have been all very well you offer would have been all very well and I myself believed that I knew what I and I myself believed that I knew what I and I myself believed that I knew what I was talking about to declare the truth was talking about to declare the truth was talking about to declare the truth about matters of high interest which a about matters of high interest which a about matters of high interest which a man honors and loves among wise men who man honors and loves among wise men who man honors and loves among wise men who love Him need occasion no fear of love Him need occasion no fear of love Him need occasion no fear of faltering in his mind but to carry on an faltering in his mind but to carry on an faltering in his mind but to carry on an argument when you are yourself only a argument when you are yourself only a argument when you are yourself only a hesitating Enquirer which is my hesitating Enquirer which is my hesitating Enquirer which is my condition is a dangerous and slippery condition is a dangerous and slippery condition is a dangerous and slippery thing and the danger is not that I shall thing and the danger is not that I shall thing and the danger is not that I shall be laughed at of which the fear would be be laughed at of which the fear would be be laughed at of which the fear would be childish but that I shall miss the truth childish but that I shall miss the truth childish but that I shall miss the truth where I have most need to be sure of my where I have most need to be sure of my where I have most need to be sure of my footing and drag my friends after me in footing and drag my friends after me in footing and drag my friends after me in my fall and I prayed nemesis not to my fall and I prayed nemesis not to my fall and I prayed nemesis not to visit upon me the words which I am going visit upon me the words which I am going visit upon me the words which I am going to utter for I do indeed believe that to to utter for I do indeed believe that to to utter for I do indeed believe that to be an involuntary homicide is a less be an involuntary homicide is a less be an involuntary homicide is a less crime and to be a deceiver about beauty crime and to be a deceiver about beauty crime and to be a deceiver about beauty or goodness or justice in the matter of or goodness or justice in the matter of or goodness or justice in the matter of laws and that it is a risk which I would laws and that it is a risk which I would laws and that it is a risk which I would rather Brown among enemies that among rather Brown among enemies that among rather Brown among enemies that among friends therefore you do well to friends therefore you do well to friends therefore you do well to encourage me encourage me encourage me Glaucon laughed and said well then Glaucon laughed and said well then Glaucon laughed and said well then Socrates in case you and your argument

Socrates in case you and your argument Socrates in case you and your argument do us any serious injury you shall be do us any serious injury you shall be do us any serious injury you shall be acquitted beforehand of the homicide and acquitted beforehand of the homicide and acquitted beforehand of the homicide and shall not be held to be a deceiver take shall not be held to be a deceiver take shall not be held to be a deceiver take courage then and speak well I said the law says that when a man well I said the law says that when a man is acquitted he is free from guilt and is acquitted he is free from guilt and is acquitted he is free from guilt and what holds at law may hold an argument what holds at law may hold an argument what holds at law may hold an argument then why should you mind then why should you mind then why should you mind well I replied I suppose that I must well I replied I suppose that I must well I replied I suppose that I must retrace my steps and say what I perhaps retrace my steps and say what I perhaps retrace my steps and say what I perhaps ought to have said before in the proper ought to have said before in the proper ought to have said before in the proper place the part of the men has been place the part of the men has been place the part of the men has been played out and now properly enough comes played out and now properly enough comes played out and now properly enough comes the turn of the women of them I will the turn of the women of them I will the turn of the women of them I will proceed to speak and the more readily proceed to speak and the more readily proceed to speak and the more readily since I am invited by you for men born since I am invited by you for men born since I am invited by you for men born and educated like our citizens the only and educated like our citizens the only and educated like our citizens the only way in my opinion of arriving at a way in my opinion of arriving at a way in my opinion of arriving at a bright conclusion about the possession bright conclusion about the possession bright conclusion about the possession and use of women and children is to and use of women and children is to and use of women and children is to follow the path on which we originally follow the path on which we originally follow the path on which we originally started when we said that the men were started when we said that the men were started when we said that the men were to be the guardians and watchdogs of the to be the guardians and watchdogs of the to be the guardians and watchdogs of the herd true let us further suppose the herd true let us further suppose the herd true let us further suppose the birth and education of our women to be birth and education of our women to be birth and education of our women to be subject to similar or nearly similar subject to similar or nearly similar subject to similar or nearly similar regulations then we shall see whether regulations then we shall see whether regulations then we shall see whether the result accords with our design what the result accords with our design what the result accords with our design what do you mean what I mean may be put into do you mean what I mean may be put into do you mean what I mean may be put into the form of a question I said our dogs the form of a question I said our dogs the form of a question I said our dogs divided into he's and she's or do they divided into he's and she's or do they divided into he's and she's or do they both share equally in hunting and in

both share equally in hunting and in both share equally in hunting and in keeping watch and in other duties of keeping watch and in other duties of keeping watch and in other duties of dogs or do we entrusted the male's the dogs or do we entrusted the male's the dogs or do we entrusted the male's the entire and exclusive care of the flocks entire and exclusive care of the flocks entire and exclusive care of the flocks while we leave the females at home under while we leave the females at home under while we leave the females at home under the idea that the bearing and suckling the idea that the bearing and suckling the idea that the bearing and suckling their puppies is labor enough for them their puppies is labor enough for them their puppies is labor enough for them no he said they share alike the only no he said they share alike the only no he said they share alike the only difference between them is that the difference between them is that the difference between them is that the males are stronger and the females males are stronger and the females males are stronger and the females weaker but can you use different animals weaker but can you use different animals weaker but can you use different animals for the same purpose unless they are for the same purpose unless they are for the same purpose unless they are bred and fed in the same way you cannot bred and fed in the same way you cannot bred and fed in the same way you cannot then if women are to have the same then if women are to have the same then if women are to have the same duties as men they must have the same duties as men they must have the same duties as men they must have the same natural education and yes the education natural education and yes the education natural education and yes the education which was assigned to the men was music which was assigned to the men was music which was assigned to the men was music and gymnastic yes then women must be and gymnastic yes then women must be and gymnastic yes then women must be taught music and gymnastic and also the taught music and gymnastic and also the taught music and gymnastic and also the art of war which they must practice like art of war which they must practice like art of war which they must practice like the man the man the man that is the inference I suppose I should that is the inference I suppose I should that is the inference I suppose I should rather expects I said that several of rather expects I said that several of rather expects I said that several of our proposals if they are carried out our proposals if they are carried out our proposals if they are carried out being unusual may appear ridiculous no being unusual may appear ridiculous no being unusual may appear ridiculous no doubt of it yes and the most ridiculous doubt of it yes and the most ridiculous doubt of it yes and the most ridiculous of all will be the sight of women naked of all will be the sight of women naked of all will be the sight of women naked in the Palestra exercising with the man in the Palestra exercising with the man in the Palestra exercising with the man especially when they are no longer young especially when they are no longer young especially when they are no longer young they certainly will not be a vision of they certainly will not be a vision of they certainly will not be a vision of beauty any more than the enthusiastic beauty any more than the enthusiastic beauty any more than the enthusiastic old men who in spite of wrinkles and old men who in spite of wrinkles and old men who in spite of wrinkles and ugliness continued to frequent the ugliness continued to frequent the ugliness continued to frequent the gymnasium yes indeed he said according

gymnasium yes indeed he said according gymnasium yes indeed he said according to present notions the proposal would be to present notions the proposal would be to present notions the proposal would be thought ridiculous but then I said pass thought ridiculous but then I said pass thought ridiculous but then I said pass we have determined to speak our minds we we have determined to speak our minds we we have determined to speak our minds we must not fear the jest of the Wits which must not fear the jest of the Wits which must not fear the jest of the Wits which will be directed against this sort of will be directed against this sort of will be directed against this sort of innovation how they will talk of women's innovation how they will talk of women's innovation how they will talk of women's attainments both in music and gymnastic attainments both in music and gymnastic attainments both in music and gymnastic and above all about their wearing armor and above all about their wearing armor and above all about their wearing armor and riding upon horseback very true we and riding upon horseback very true we and riding upon horseback very true we replied yet having begun we must go replied yet having begun we must go replied yet having begun we must go forward to the rough places of the law forward to the rough places of the law forward to the rough places of the law at the same time begging of these at the same time begging of these at the same time begging of these gentlemen for once in their life to be gentlemen for once in their life to be gentlemen for once in their life to be serious serious serious not long ago as we shall remind them the not long ago as we shall remind them the not long ago as we shall remind them the Helene's were of the opinion which is Helene's were of the opinion which is Helene's were of the opinion which is still generally received among the still generally received among the still generally received among the barbarians that the sight of a naked man barbarians that the sight of a naked man barbarians that the sight of a naked man was ridiculous and improper and when was ridiculous and improper and when was ridiculous and improper and when first the Cretans and then the laka first the Cretans and then the laka first the Cretans and then the laka Damania has introduced a custom the Damania has introduced a custom the Damania has introduced a custom the width of that day might equally have width of that day might equally have width of that day might equally have ridiculed the innovation no doubt but ridiculed the innovation no doubt but ridiculed the innovation no doubt but when experience showed that to let all when experience showed that to let all when experience showed that to let all things be uncovered was far better than things be uncovered was far better than things be uncovered was far better than to cover them up and the ludicrous to cover them up and the ludicrous to cover them up and the ludicrous effect to the outward eye vanished effect to the outward eye vanished effect to the outward eye vanished before the better principle which reason before the better principle which reason before the better principle which reason asserted then the man was perceived to asserted then the man was perceived to asserted then the man was perceived to be a fool who directs the shafts of his be a fool who directs the shafts of his be a fool who directs the shafts of his ridicule at any other site but that of ridicule at any other site but that of ridicule at any other site but that of folly and vice or seriously inclines to folly and vice or seriously inclines to folly and vice or seriously inclines to weigh the beautiful by any other weigh the beautiful by any other weigh the beautiful by any other standard but that of the good a very standard but that of the good a very standard but that of the good a very true true true they replied first then whether the

they replied first then whether the they replied first then whether the question is to be put in jest or in question is to be put in jest or in question is to be put in jest or in earnest let us come to an earnest let us come to an earnest let us come to an standing about the nature of woman is standing about the nature of woman is standing about the nature of woman is she capable of sharing either wholly or she capable of sharing either wholly or she capable of sharing either wholly or partially in the actions of men or not partially in the actions of men or not partially in the actions of men or not at all and it's the art of war one of at all and it's the art of war one of at all and it's the art of war one of those arts in which she can or cannot those arts in which she can or cannot those arts in which she can or cannot share that will be the best way of share that will be the best way of share that will be the best way of commencing the inquiry and will probably commencing the inquiry and will probably commencing the inquiry and will probably lead to the fairest conclusion that will lead to the fairest conclusion that will lead to the fairest conclusion that will be much the best way shall we take the be much the best way shall we take the be much the best way shall we take the other side first and begin by arguing other side first and begin by arguing other side first and begin by arguing against ourselves in this manner the against ourselves in this manner the against ourselves in this manner the adversaries position will not be adversaries position will not be adversaries position will not be undefended why not he said then let us undefended why not he said then let us undefended why not he said then let us put a speech into the mouths of our put a speech into the mouths of our put a speech into the mouths of our opponents they will say Socrates and opponents they will say Socrates and opponents they will say Socrates and Glaucon no adversary need convict you Glaucon no adversary need convict you Glaucon no adversary need convict you for you yourselves that the first for you yourselves that the first for you yourselves that the first foundation of the state admitted the foundation of the state admitted the foundation of the state admitted the principle that everybody was to do the principle that everybody was to do the principle that everybody was to do the one work suited to his own nature and one work suited to his own nature and one work suited to his own nature and certainly if I am not mistaken such an certainly if I am not mistaken such an certainly if I am not mistaken such an admission was made by us and do not the admission was made by us and do not the admission was made by us and do not the nature's of men and women differ very nature's of men and women differ very nature's of men and women differ very much indeed and we shall reply of course much indeed and we shall reply of course much indeed and we shall reply of course they do then we shall be asked whether they do then we shall be asked whether they do then we shall be asked whether the tasks assigned to Benin to women the tasks assigned to Benin to women the tasks assigned to Benin to women should not be different and such as are should not be different and such as are should not be different and such as are agreeable to their different natures agreeable to their different natures agreeable to their different natures certainly they should but if so have you certainly they should but if so have you certainly they should but if so have you not fallen into a serious inconsistency not fallen into a serious inconsistency not fallen into a serious inconsistency in saying that men and women whose

in saying that men and women whose in saying that men and women whose natures are so entirely different ought natures are so entirely different ought natures are so entirely different ought to perform the same actions what defense to perform the same actions what defense to perform the same actions what defense will you make for us my good sir against will you make for us my good sir against will you make for us my good sir against anyone who offers these objections that anyone who offers these objections that anyone who offers these objections that is not an easy question to answer when is not an easy question to answer when is not an easy question to answer when asked suddenly and I shall and I do beg asked suddenly and I shall and I do beg asked suddenly and I shall and I do beg of you to draw out the case on our side of you to draw out the case on our side of you to draw out the case on our side these are the objections Glaucon and these are the objections Glaucon and these are the objections Glaucon and there are many others of a like-kind there are many others of a like-kind there are many others of a like-kind which I foresaw long ago they made me which I foresaw long ago they made me which I foresaw long ago they made me afraid and reluctant to take in hand any afraid and reluctant to take in hand any afraid and reluctant to take in hand any law about the possession and nurture of law about the possession and nurture of law about the possession and nurture of women and children by Zeus he said the women and children by Zeus he said the women and children by Zeus he said the problem to be solved is anything but problem to be solved is anything but problem to be solved is anything but easy easy easy why yes I said but the fact is that when why yes I said but the fact is that when why yes I said but the fact is that when a man is out of his depth whether he has a man is out of his depth whether he has a man is out of his depth whether he has fallen into a little swimming bath fallen into a little swimming bath fallen into a little swimming bath into mid-ocean he has to swim all the into mid-ocean he has to swim all the into mid-ocean he has to swim all the same very true and must not we swim and same very true and must not we swim and same very true and must not we swim and try to reach the shore we will hope that try to reach the shore we will hope that try to reach the shore we will hope that Aryans dolphin or some other miraculous Aryans dolphin or some other miraculous Aryans dolphin or some other miraculous help may save us I suppose so he said help may save us I suppose so he said help may save us I suppose so he said well then let us see if any way of well then let us see if any way of well then let us see if any way of escape can be found we acknowledged did escape can be found we acknowledged did escape can be found we acknowledged did we not that different natures are to we not that different natures are to we not that different natures are to have different pursuits and that men's have different pursuits and that men's have different pursuits and that men's and women's natures are different and and women's natures are different and and women's natures are different and now what are we saying that different now what are we saying that different now what are we saying that different natures are to have the same pursuits natures are to have the same pursuits natures are to have the same pursuits this is the inconsistency which is this is the inconsistency which is this is the inconsistency which is charged upon us precisely verily Glaucon charged upon us precisely verily Glaucon charged upon us precisely verily Glaucon I said glorious is the power of the art

I said glorious is the power of the art I said glorious is the power of the art of contradiction why do you say so of contradiction why do you say so of contradiction why do you say so because I think that many a man falls because I think that many a man falls because I think that many a man falls into the practice against his will when into the practice against his will when into the practice against his will when he thinks that he is reasoning he is he thinks that he is reasoning he is he thinks that he is reasoning he is really disputing just because he cannot really disputing just because he cannot really disputing just because he cannot define and divide and so know that of define and divide and so know that of define and divide and so know that of which he is speaking and he will pursue which he is speaking and he will pursue which he is speaking and he will pursue a merely verbal opposition in the spirit a merely verbal opposition in the spirit a merely verbal opposition in the spirit of contention and not a fair discussion of contention and not a fair discussion of contention and not a fair discussion yes it replied such is very often the yes it replied such is very often the yes it replied such is very often the case but what has that to do with us in case but what has that to do with us in case but what has that to do with us in our argument a great deal for there is our argument a great deal for there is our argument a great deal for there is certainly a danger of our getting certainly a danger of our getting certainly a danger of our getting unintentionally into a verbal opposition unintentionally into a verbal opposition unintentionally into a verbal opposition in what way why we valiantly and in what way why we valiantly and in what way why we valiantly and pugnaciously insist upon the verbal pugnaciously insist upon the verbal pugnaciously insist upon the verbal truth that different natures ought to truth that different natures ought to truth that different natures ought to have different pursuits but we never have different pursuits but we never have different pursuits but we never considered at all what was the meaning considered at all what was the meaning considered at all what was the meaning of sameness or difference of nature or of sameness or difference of nature or of sameness or difference of nature or why we distinguished them when we why we distinguished them when we why we distinguished them when we assigned different pursuits to different assigned different pursuits to different assigned different pursuits to different natures and the same - the same natures natures and the same - the same natures natures and the same - the same natures well I know he said that was never well I know he said that was never well I know he said that was never considered by us I said suppose that by considered by us I said suppose that by considered by us I said suppose that by way of illustration we were to ask the way of illustration we were to ask the way of illustration we were to ask the question whether there is not an question whether there is not an question whether there is not an opposition in nature between bald men opposition in nature between bald men opposition in nature between bald men and hairy men and if this is admitted by and hairy men and if this is admitted by and hairy men and if this is admitted by us that if bald men are cobblers we us that if bald men are cobblers we us that if bald men are cobblers we should forbid the hairy man to be should forbid the hairy man to be should forbid the hairy man to be cobblers and conversely that would be a cobblers and conversely that would be a cobblers and conversely that would be a jest jest jest yes I said a jest and why because we

yes I said a jest and why because we yes I said a jest and why because we never met when we constructed the state never met when we constructed the state never met when we constructed the state that the opposition of nature's should that the opposition of nature's should that the opposition of nature's should extend to every difference extend to every difference extend to every difference but only to those differences which but only to those differences which but only to those differences which affected the pursuit in which the affected the pursuit in which the affected the pursuit in which the individual is engaged we should have individual is engaged we should have individual is engaged we should have argued for example that a physician and argued for example that a physician and argued for example that a physician and one who is in mind a physician may be one who is in mind a physician may be one who is in mind a physician may be said to have the same nature true said to have the same nature true said to have the same nature true whereas the physician and the carpenter whereas the physician and the carpenter whereas the physician and the carpenter have different natures certainly and if have different natures certainly and if have different natures certainly and if I said the male and female sex appear to I said the male and female sex appear to I said the male and female sex appear to differ in their fitness for any art or differ in their fitness for any art or differ in their fitness for any art or pursuit we should say that such pursuit pursuit we should say that such pursuit pursuit we should say that such pursuit or art ought to be assigned to one or or art ought to be assigned to one or or art ought to be assigned to one or the other of them but if the difference the other of them but if the difference the other of them but if the difference consists only in women bearing and men consists only in women bearing and men consists only in women bearing and men be getting children this does not amount be getting children this does not amount be getting children this does not amount to a proof that a woman differs from a to a proof that a woman differs from a to a proof that a woman differs from a man in respect to the sort of education man in respect to the sort of education man in respect to the sort of education she should receive and we shall she should receive and we shall she should receive and we shall therefore continue to maintain that our therefore continue to maintain that our therefore continue to maintain that our Guardians and their wives are to have Guardians and their wives are to have Guardians and their wives are to have the same pursuits very true he said next the same pursuits very true he said next the same pursuits very true he said next we shall ask our opponent how in we shall ask our opponent how in we shall ask our opponent how in reference to any of the pursuits or arts reference to any of the pursuits or arts reference to any of the pursuits or arts of civic life the nature of a woman of civic life the nature of a woman of civic life the nature of a woman differs from that of a man that will be differs from that of a man that will be differs from that of a man that will be quite fair and perhaps he like yourself quite fair and perhaps he like yourself quite fair and perhaps he like yourself will reply that to give a sufficient will reply that to give a sufficient will reply that to give a sufficient answer on the instant is not easy but answer on the instant is not easy but answer on the instant is not easy but after a little reflection there is no after a little reflection there is no after a little reflection there is no difficult yes perhaps suppose then that

difficult yes perhaps suppose then that difficult yes perhaps suppose then that we invite him to accompany us in the we invite him to accompany us in the we invite him to accompany us in the argument and then we may hope to show argument and then we may hope to show argument and then we may hope to show him that there is nothing peculiar in him that there is nothing peculiar in him that there is nothing peculiar in the constitution of women which would the constitution of women which would the constitution of women which would affect them in the administration of the affect them in the administration of the affect them in the administration of the state by all means state by all means state by all means I say to him come now and we will ask I say to him come now and we will ask I say to him come now and we will ask you a question when you spoke of a you a question when you spoke of a you a question when you spoke of a nature gifted or not gifted at any nature gifted or not gifted at any nature gifted or not gifted at any respect did you mean to say that one man respect did you mean to say that one man respect did you mean to say that one man will acquire a thing easily another was will acquire a thing easily another was will acquire a thing easily another was difficulty a little learning will lead difficulty a little learning will lead difficulty a little learning will lead the one to discover a great deal whereas the one to discover a great deal whereas the one to discover a great deal whereas the other after much study an the other after much study an the other after much study an application application application no sooner learns and he forgets or again no sooner learns and he forgets or again no sooner learns and he forgets or again did you mean that the one has a body did you mean that the one has a body did you mean that the one has a body which is a good servant to his mind which is a good servant to his mind which is a good servant to his mind while the body of the other is a while the body of the other is a while the body of the other is a hindrance to him but not these be the hindrance to him but not these be the hindrance to him but not these be the sort of differences which distinguished sort of differences which distinguished sort of differences which distinguished the man gifted by nature from the one the man gifted by nature from the one the man gifted by nature from the one who is unlisted no one will deny that who is unlisted no one will deny that who is unlisted no one will deny that and can you mention any pursuit of and can you mention any pursuit of and can you mention any pursuit of mankind in which the male sex has not mankind in which the male sex has not mankind in which the male sex has not all these gifts and qualities in a all these gifts and qualities in a all these gifts and qualities in a higher degree than the female need I higher degree than the female need I higher degree than the female need I waste time and speaking of the art of waste time and speaking of the art of waste time and speaking of the art of weaving and the management of pancakes weaving and the management of pancakes weaving and the management of pancakes and preserves in which womankind does and preserves in which womankind does and preserves in which womankind does really appear to be great really appear to be great really appear to be great and in which for her to be beaten by a and in which for her to be beaten by a and in which for her to be beaten by a man is of all things the most absurd you man is of all things the most absurd you man is of all things the most absurd you are quite right he replied in are quite right he replied in are quite right he replied in maintaining the general inferiority of maintaining the general inferiority of maintaining the general inferiority of the female sex although many women are the female sex although many women are the female sex although many women are in many things superior to many men yet

in many things superior to many men yet in many things superior to many men yet on the whole what you say is true and if on the whole what you say is true and if on the whole what you say is true and if so my friend I said there is no special so my friend I said there is no special so my friend I said there is no special Faculty of Administration in the state Faculty of Administration in the state Faculty of Administration in the state which a woman has because she is a woman which a woman has because she is a woman which a woman has because she is a woman or which a man has by virtue of his sex or which a man has by virtue of his sex or which a man has by virtue of his sex but the gifts of nature are alike but the gifts of nature are alike but the gifts of nature are alike diffused in both all the pursuits of men diffused in both all the pursuits of men diffused in both all the pursuits of men are the pursuits of women also but in are the pursuits of women also but in are the pursuits of women also but in all of them a woman is inferior to a man all of them a woman is inferior to a man all of them a woman is inferior to a man very true then are we to impose all our very true then are we to impose all our very true then are we to impose all our enactments on men and none of them enactments on men and none of them enactments on men and none of them aren't women so that will never do one aren't women so that will never do one aren't women so that will never do one woman has a gift of healing another not woman has a gift of healing another not woman has a gift of healing another not one is a musician and another has no one is a musician and another has no one is a musician and another has no music in her nature very true and one music in her nature very true and one music in her nature very true and one woman has a turn for gymnastics and woman has a turn for gymnastics and woman has a turn for gymnastics and military exercises and another is military exercises and another is military exercises and another is unwarlike and hates gymnastics certainly unwarlike and hates gymnastics certainly unwarlike and hates gymnastics certainly and one woman is a philosopher and and one woman is a philosopher and and one woman is a philosopher and another is an enemy of philosophy one another is an enemy of philosophy one another is an enemy of philosophy one has spirit has spirit has spirit and another is with our spirit that is and another is with our spirit that is and another is with our spirit that is also true then one woman will have the also true then one woman will have the also true then one woman will have the temper of a guardian and another not was temper of a guardian and another not was temper of a guardian and another not was not the selection of the male Guardians not the selection of the male Guardians not the selection of the male Guardians determined by differences of this sort determined by differences of this sort determined by differences of this sort yes men and women alike possess the yes men and women alike possess the yes men and women alike possess the qualities which make a guardian they qualities which make a guardian they qualities which make a guardian they differ only in their comparative differ only in their comparative differ only in their comparative strength or weakness obviously and those strength or weakness obviously and those strength or weakness obviously and those women who have such qualities are to be women who have such qualities are to be women who have such qualities are to be selected as the companions and selected as the companions and selected as the companions and colleagues of men who have similar colleagues of men who have similar colleagues of men who have similar qualities and whom they resemble in qualities and whom they resemble in qualities and whom they resemble in capacity and in character very true and

capacity and in character very true and capacity and in character very true and are not the same natures to have the are not the same natures to have the are not the same natures to have the same pursuits they ought then as we were same pursuits they ought then as we were same pursuits they ought then as we were saying before saying before saying before there is nothing unnatural in assigning there is nothing unnatural in assigning there is nothing unnatural in assigning music and gymnastic to the wives of the music and gymnastic to the wives of the music and gymnastic to the wives of the guardians to that point we come round guardians to that point we come round guardians to that point we come round again certainly not the law which we again certainly not the law which we again certainly not the law which we then enact it was agreeable to nature then enact it was agreeable to nature then enact it was agreeable to nature and therefore not an impossibility or and therefore not an impossibility or and therefore not an impossibility or mere aspiration and the contrary mere aspiration and the contrary mere aspiration and the contrary practice which prevails at present is in practice which prevails at present is in practice which prevails at present is in reality of violation of nature that reality of violation of nature that reality of violation of nature that appears to be true we had to consider appears to be true we had to consider appears to be true we had to consider first whether our proposals were first whether our proposals were first whether our proposals were possible and secondly whether they are possible and secondly whether they are possible and secondly whether they are the most beneficial yes and the the most beneficial yes and the the most beneficial yes and the possibility has been acknowledged yes possibility has been acknowledged yes possibility has been acknowledged yes the very great benefit was next to be the very great benefit was next to be the very great benefit was next to be established quite so you will admit that established quite so you will admit that established quite so you will admit that the same education which makes a man a the same education which makes a man a the same education which makes a man a good Guardian for make a woman a good good Guardian for make a woman a good good Guardian for make a woman a good Guardian for their original nature is Guardian for their original nature is Guardian for their original nature is the same yes I should like to ask you a the same yes I should like to ask you a the same yes I should like to ask you a question question question Oh what is it would you say that all men Oh what is it would you say that all men Oh what is it would you say that all men are equal in excellence or is one man are equal in excellence or is one man are equal in excellence or is one man better than another the matter and in better than another the matter and in better than another the matter and in the Commonwealth which we are founding the Commonwealth which we are founding the Commonwealth which we are founding do you conceive the guardians who have do you conceive the guardians who have do you conceive the guardians who have been brought up on our model system to been brought up on our model system to been brought up on our model system to be more perfect man or the Cobblers be more perfect man or the Cobblers be more perfect man or the Cobblers whose education has been crumbling what whose education has been crumbling what whose education has been crumbling what a ridiculous question a ridiculous question a ridiculous question you have answered me I replied well and

you have answered me I replied well and you have answered me I replied well and may we not further say that our may we not further say that our may we not further say that our guardians are the best of our citizens guardians are the best of our citizens guardians are the best of our citizens by far the best and will not their wives by far the best and will not their wives by far the best and will not their wives be the best women yes by far the best be the best women yes by far the best be the best women yes by far the best and can there be anything better for the and can there be anything better for the and can there be anything better for the interests of the state than that the men interests of the state than that the men interests of the state than that the men and women of the state should be as good and women of the state should be as good and women of the state should be as good as possible there could be nothing as possible there could be nothing as possible there could be nothing better and this is what the arts of better and this is what the arts of better and this is what the arts of music and gymnastic when present in such music and gymnastic when present in such music and gymnastic when present in such manner as we have described will manner as we have described will manner as we have described will accomplish certainly then we have made accomplish certainly then we have made accomplish certainly then we have made an enactment not only possible but in an enactment not only possible but in an enactment not only possible but in the highest degree beneficial to the the highest degree beneficial to the the highest degree beneficial to the state true then let the wives of our state true then let the wives of our state true then let the wives of our Guardians strip for their virtue will be Guardians strip for their virtue will be Guardians strip for their virtue will be their robe and let them share in the their robe and let them share in the their robe and let them share in the toils of war or the defense of their toils of war or the defense of their toils of war or the defense of their country only in the distribution of country only in the distribution of country only in the distribution of Labor's that lighten are to be assigned Labor's that lighten are to be assigned Labor's that lighten are to be assigned to the women who are the weaker natures to the women who are the weaker natures to the women who are the weaker natures but in other respects their duties ought but in other respects their duties ought but in other respects their duties ought to be the same and as for the man who to be the same and as for the man who to be the same and as for the man who laughs at naked women exercising their laughs at naked women exercising their laughs at naked women exercising their bodies from the best of motives in his bodies from the best of motives in his bodies from the best of motives in his laughter he is plucking a fruit of laughter he is plucking a fruit of laughter he is plucking a fruit of unripe wisdom and he himself is ignorant unripe wisdom and he himself is ignorant unripe wisdom and he himself is ignorant of what he is laughing at or what he is of what he is laughing at or what he is of what he is laughing at or what he is about for that is and ever will be the about for that is and ever will be the about for that is and ever will be the best of sayings and the useful is the best of sayings and the useful is the best of sayings and the useful is the noble and the hurtful is the base very noble and the hurtful is the base very noble and the hurtful is the base very true here then is one difficulty in our true here then is one difficulty in our true here then is one difficulty in our law about women which we may say that we

law about women which we may say that we law about women which we may say that we have now escaped the wave has not have now escaped the wave has not have now escaped the wave has not swallowed us up a lie for enacting that swallowed us up a lie for enacting that swallowed us up a lie for enacting that the guardians of either sex should have the guardians of either sex should have the guardians of either sex should have all the pursuits in common to the all the pursuits in common to the all the pursuits in common to the utility and also to the possibility of utility and also to the possibility of utility and also to the possibility of this arrangement the consistency of the this arrangement the consistency of the this arrangement the consistency of the argument with itself bears witness yes argument with itself bears witness yes argument with itself bears witness yes that was a mighty wave which you have that was a mighty wave which you have that was a mighty wave which you have escaped yes I said but a greater is escaped yes I said but a greater is escaped yes I said but a greater is coming you will not think much of this coming you will not think much of this coming you will not think much of this when you see the next go on let me see when you see the next go on let me see when you see the next go on let me see the law I said which is the sequel of the law I said which is the sequel of the law I said which is the sequel of this and of all that has proceeded is to this and of all that has proceeded is to this and of all that has proceeded is to the following effect that the wives of the following effect that the wives of the following effect that the wives of our guardians are to be common and their our guardians are to be common and their our guardians are to be common and their children are to be common and no parent children are to be common and no parent children are to be common and no parent is to know his own child nor any child is to know his own child nor any child is to know his own child nor any child his parent yes he said that is a much his parent yes he said that is a much his parent yes he said that is a much greater way than the other and the greater way than the other and the greater way than the other and the possibility as well as the utility of possibility as well as the utility of possibility as well as the utility of such a law are far more questionable I such a law are far more questionable I such a law are far more questionable I do not think I said that there can be do not think I said that there can be do not think I said that there can be any dispute about the very great utility any dispute about the very great utility any dispute about the very great utility of having wives and children in common of having wives and children in common of having wives and children in common the possibility is quite another matter the possibility is quite another matter the possibility is quite another matter and will be very much disputed I think and will be very much disputed I think and will be very much disputed I think that a good many doubts may be raised that a good many doubts may be raised that a good many doubts may be raised about both you imply that the two about both you imply that the two about both you imply that the two questions must be combined I replied ah questions must be combined I replied ah questions must be combined I replied ah I meant that you should admit the I meant that you should admit the I meant that you should admit the utility and in this way as I thought I utility and in this way as I thought I utility and in this way as I thought I should escape from one of them and then should escape from one of them and then should escape from one of them and then there would remain only the possibility

there would remain only the possibility there would remain only the possibility but that little attempt is detected and but that little attempt is detected and but that little attempt is detected and therefore you will please to give a therefore you will please to give a therefore you will please to give a defense of both well I said I submit to defense of both well I said I submit to defense of both well I said I submit to my fate yet granted me a little favor my fate yet granted me a little favor my fate yet granted me a little favor let me feast my mind with the dream as let me feast my mind with the dream as let me feast my mind with the dream as day dreamers are in the habit of day dreamers are in the habit of day dreamers are in the habit of feasting themselves when they are feasting themselves when they are feasting themselves when they are walking alone for before they have walking alone for before they have walking alone for before they have discovered any means of affecting their discovered any means of affecting their discovered any means of affecting their wishes that is a matter which never wishes that is a matter which never wishes that is a matter which never troubles them they would rather not tire troubles them they would rather not tire troubles them they would rather not tire themselves by thinking about themselves by thinking about themselves by thinking about possibilities but assuming that what possibilities but assuming that what possibilities but assuming that what they desire is already granted to them they desire is already granted to them they desire is already granted to them they proceed with their plan and delight they proceed with their plan and delight they proceed with their plan and delight and detailing what they mean to do when and detailing what they mean to do when and detailing what they mean to do when their wish has come true that is a way their wish has come true that is a way their wish has come true that is a way which they have of not doing much good which they have of not doing much good which they have of not doing much good to a capacity which was never good for to a capacity which was never good for to a capacity which was never good for much now I myself am beginning to lose much now I myself am beginning to lose much now I myself am beginning to lose heart and I should like with your heart and I should like with your heart and I should like with your permission to pass over the question of permission to pass over the question of permission to pass over the question of possibility at present assuming possibility at present assuming possibility at present assuming therefore the possibility of the therefore the possibility of the therefore the possibility of the proposal I shall now proceed to inquire proposal I shall now proceed to inquire proposal I shall now proceed to inquire how the builders will carry out these how the builders will carry out these how the builders will carry out these arrangements and I shall demonstrate arrangements and I shall demonstrate arrangements and I shall demonstrate that our plan if executed will be of the that our plan if executed will be of the that our plan if executed will be of the greatest benefit to greatest benefit to greatest benefit to the state and to the Guardians first of the state and to the Guardians first of the state and to the Guardians first of all then if you have no objection I will all then if you have no objection I will all then if you have no objection I will endeavour with your help to consider the endeavour with your help to consider the endeavour with your help to consider the advantages of the measure and hereafter advantages of the measure and hereafter advantages of the measure and hereafter the question of possibility now I have the question of possibility now I have the question of possibility now I have no objection proceed

no objection proceed no objection proceed first I think that if our rulers and our first I think that if our rulers and our first I think that if our rulers and our auxiliaries are to be worthy of the name auxiliaries are to be worthy of the name auxiliaries are to be worthy of the name which they bear there must be which they bear there must be which they bear there must be willingness to obey in the won and the willingness to obey in the won and the willingness to obey in the won and the power of command in the other the power of command in the other the power of command in the other the Koreans must themselves obey the laws Koreans must themselves obey the laws Koreans must themselves obey the laws and they must also imitate the spirit of and they must also imitate the spirit of and they must also imitate the spirit of them in any details which are entrusted them in any details which are entrusted them in any details which are entrusted to their care that is right to their care that is right to their care that is right he said you who I said who are their he said you who I said who are their he said you who I said who are their legislator having selected the men will legislator having selected the men will legislator having selected the men will now select the women and give them to now select the women and give them to now select the women and give them to them they must be as far as possible of them they must be as far as possible of them they must be as far as possible of like nature's with them they must live like nature's with them they must live like nature's with them they must live in common houses and meet at common in common houses and meet at common in common houses and meet at common meals none of them will have anything meals none of them will have anything meals none of them will have anything specially his or her own they will be specially his or her own they will be specially his or her own they will be together and will be brought up together together and will be brought up together together and will be brought up together and will associate at gymnastic and will associate at gymnastic and will associate at gymnastic exercises and so they will be drawn by a exercises and so they will be drawn by a exercises and so they will be drawn by a necessity of their natures to have necessity of their natures to have necessity of their natures to have intercourse with each other necessity is intercourse with each other necessity is intercourse with each other necessity is not too strong a word I think yes he not too strong a word I think yes he not too strong a word I think yes he said necessity not geometrical but said necessity not geometrical but said necessity not geometrical but another sort of necessity which lovers another sort of necessity which lovers another sort of necessity which lovers know and which is far more convincing know and which is far more convincing know and which is far more convincing and constraining to the mass of mankind and constraining to the mass of mankind and constraining to the mass of mankind true I said and this Glaucon like all true I said and this Glaucon like all true I said and this Glaucon like all the rest must proceed after an orderly the rest must proceed after an orderly the rest must proceed after an orderly fashion in a city of the Blessed fashion in a city of the Blessed fashion in a city of the Blessed licentiousness is an unholy thing which licentiousness is an unholy thing which licentiousness is an unholy thing which the rulers will forbid yes he said and the rulers will forbid yes he said and the rulers will forbid yes he said and it ought not to be permitted then it ought not to be permitted then it ought not to be permitted then clearly the next thing will be to make

clearly the next thing will be to make clearly the next thing will be to make matrimony sacred in the highest degree matrimony sacred in the highest degree matrimony sacred in the highest degree and what is most beneficent will be and what is most beneficent will be and what is most beneficent will be deemed sacred exactly and how can deemed sacred exactly and how can deemed sacred exactly and how can marriages be made most beneficial that marriages be made most beneficial that marriages be made most beneficial that is a question which I put to you because is a question which I put to you because is a question which I put to you because I see in your house dogs for hunting and I see in your house dogs for hunting and I see in your house dogs for hunting and of a nobler sort of birds not a few now of a nobler sort of birds not a few now of a nobler sort of birds not a few now I beseech you do tell me have you ever I beseech you do tell me have you ever I beseech you do tell me have you ever attended to their pairing and breeding attended to their pairing and breeding attended to their pairing and breeding and what particulars why in the first and what particulars why in the first and what particulars why in the first place although they are all of a good place although they are all of a good place although they are all of a good sort are not some better than others sort are not some better than others sort are not some better than others true and do you breed from them all true and do you breed from them all true and do you breed from them all indifferently or do you take care to indifferently or do you take care to indifferently or do you take care to brief brief brief the best only well from the best and do the best only well from the best and do the best only well from the best and do you take the oldest or the youngest or you take the oldest or the youngest or you take the oldest or the youngest or only those of ripe age I choose only only those of ripe age I choose only only those of ripe age I choose only those of ripe age and if care was not those of ripe age and if care was not those of ripe age and if care was not taken in the breeding your dogs and taken in the breeding your dogs and taken in the breeding your dogs and birds would greatly deteriorate birds would greatly deteriorate birds would greatly deteriorate certainly and the same of horses and certainly and the same of horses and certainly and the same of horses and animals in general undoubtedly good animals in general undoubtedly good animals in general undoubtedly good heavens my dear friend I said what heavens my dear friend I said what heavens my dear friend I said what consummate skill will our builders need consummate skill will our builders need consummate skill will our builders need at the same principle holds of the human at the same principle holds of the human at the same principle holds of the human species certainly the same principle species certainly the same principle species certainly the same principle holds but why does this involve any holds but why does this involve any holds but why does this involve any particular skill because I said o rulers particular skill because I said o rulers particular skill because I said o rulers will often have to practice upon the will often have to practice upon the will often have to practice upon the body corporate with medicines now you body corporate with medicines now you body corporate with medicines now you know that when patients do not require know that when patients do not require know that when patients do not require medicines but have only to be put under

medicines but have only to be put under medicines but have only to be put under a regimen the inferior sort of a regimen the inferior sort of a regimen the inferior sort of practitioner is deemed to be good enough practitioner is deemed to be good enough practitioner is deemed to be good enough but what medicine has to be given then but what medicine has to be given then but what medicine has to be given then the doctor should be more of a man that the doctor should be more of a man that the doctor should be more of a man that is quite true he said but - what are you is quite true he said but - what are you is quite true he said but - what are you alluding I mean I replied that our alluding I mean I replied that our alluding I mean I replied that our rulers will find a considerable dose of rulers will find a considerable dose of rulers will find a considerable dose of falsehood and deceit necessary for the falsehood and deceit necessary for the falsehood and deceit necessary for the good of their subjects we were saying good of their subjects we were saying good of their subjects we were saying that the use of all these things that the use of all these things that the use of all these things regarded as medicines might be of regarded as medicines might be of regarded as medicines might be of advantage and we were very right and advantage and we were very right and advantage and we were very right and this lawful use of them seems likely to this lawful use of them seems likely to this lawful use of them seems likely to be often needed in the regulations of be often needed in the regulations of be often needed in the regulations of marriages and births how so why I said marriages and births how so why I said marriages and births how so why I said the principle has already been laid down the principle has already been laid down the principle has already been laid down that the best of either sex should be that the best of either sex should be that the best of either sex should be united with the best as often and the united with the best as often and the united with the best as often and the inferior with the inferior as seldom as inferior with the inferior as seldom as inferior with the inferior as seldom as possible and that they should rear the possible and that they should rear the possible and that they should rear the offspring of the one sort of Union but offspring of the one sort of Union but offspring of the one sort of Union but not of the other if the flock is to be not of the other if the flock is to be not of the other if the flock is to be maintained in first-rate condition maintained in first-rate condition maintained in first-rate condition now these goings-on must be a secret now these goings-on must be a secret now these goings-on must be a secret which the rulers only know and there which the rulers only know and there which the rulers only know and there will be a further danger of our herd as will be a further danger of our herd as will be a further danger of our herd as the guardians may be termed breaking out the guardians may be termed breaking out the guardians may be termed breaking out into rebellion very true had we not into rebellion very true had we not into rebellion very true had we not better appoint certain festivals at better appoint certain festivals at better appoint certain festivals at which we will bring together the brides which we will bring together the brides which we will bring together the brides and bridegroom's and sacrifices will be and bridegroom's and sacrifices will be and bridegroom's and sacrifices will be offered and suitable high menial songs offered and suitable high menial songs offered and suitable high menial songs composed by our poets the number of composed by our poets the number of composed by our poets the number of weddings is a matter which must be left

weddings is a matter which must be left weddings is a matter which must be left to the discretion of the rulers whose to the discretion of the rulers whose to the discretion of the rulers whose aim will be to preserve the average of aim will be to preserve the average of aim will be to preserve the average of population there are many other things population there are many other things population there are many other things which they will have to consider such as which they will have to consider such as which they will have to consider such as the effects of wars and diseases and the effects of wars and diseases and the effects of wars and diseases and similar agencies in order as far as this similar agencies in order as far as this similar agencies in order as far as this as possible as possible as possible to prevent the state from becoming to prevent the state from becoming to prevent the state from becoming either too large or too small either too large or too small either too large or too small certainly he replied we shall have to certainly he replied we shall have to certainly he replied we shall have to invent some ingenious kind of Lots which invent some ingenious kind of Lots which invent some ingenious kind of Lots which the less worthy may draw on each the less worthy may draw on each the less worthy may draw on each occasion of our bringing them together occasion of our bringing them together occasion of our bringing them together and then they will accuse their only and then they will accuse their only and then they will accuse their only luck but not the rulers to be sure he luck but not the rulers to be sure he luck but not the rulers to be sure he said and I think that our braver and said and I think that our braver and said and I think that our braver and better youth besides their other honours better youth besides their other honours better youth besides their other honours and rewards might have greater and rewards might have greater and rewards might have greater facilities of intercourse with women facilities of intercourse with women facilities of intercourse with women given them their bravery will be a given them their bravery will be a given them their bravery will be a reason and such fathers ought to have as reason and such fathers ought to have as reason and such fathers ought to have as many sons as possible true and the many sons as possible true and the many sons as possible true and the proper officers whether male or female proper officers whether male or female proper officers whether male or female or both for offices are to be held by or both for offices are to be held by or both for offices are to be held by women as well as by men yes the proper women as well as by men yes the proper women as well as by men yes the proper officers will take the offspring of the officers will take the offspring of the officers will take the offspring of the good parents to the pen or fold and good parents to the pen or fold and good parents to the pen or fold and there they will deposit them with there they will deposit them with there they will deposit them with certain nurses who dwell in a separate certain nurses who dwell in a separate certain nurses who dwell in a separate quarter but the offspring of the quarter but the offspring of the quarter but the offspring of the inferior or of the better when they inferior or of the better when they inferior or of the better when they chanced to be deformed will be put away chanced to be deformed will be put away chanced to be deformed will be put away in some mysterious unknown place as they in some mysterious unknown place as they in some mysterious unknown place as they should be yes he said that must be done should be yes he said that must be done should be yes he said that must be done if the breed of the guardians is to be

if the breed of the guardians is to be if the breed of the guardians is to be kept pure kept pure kept pure they will provide for their nurture and they will provide for their nurture and they will provide for their nurture and will bring the mothers to the fold when will bring the mothers to the fold when will bring the mothers to the fold when they are full of milk taking the they are full of milk taking the they are full of milk taking the greatest possible care that no mother greatest possible care that no mother greatest possible care that no mother recognizes her own child and other wet recognizes her own child and other wet recognizes her own child and other wet nurses nurses nurses be engaged if more are required care be engaged if more are required care be engaged if more are required care will also be taken that the process of will also be taken that the process of will also be taken that the process of suckling shall not be protected too long suckling shall not be protected too long suckling shall not be protected too long and the mothers will have no getting up and the mothers will have no getting up and the mothers will have no getting up at night or other trouble but will hand at night or other trouble but will hand at night or other trouble but will hand over all this sort of thing to the over all this sort of thing to the over all this sort of thing to the nurses and attendants you suppose the nurses and attendants you suppose the nurses and attendants you suppose the wives of our guardians to have a fine wives of our guardians to have a fine wives of our guardians to have a fine easy time of it when they are having easy time of it when they are having easy time of it when they are having children children children why said I and so they ought let us why said I and so they ought let us why said I and so they ought let us however proceed with our scheme we were however proceed with our scheme we were however proceed with our scheme we were saying that the parents should be in the saying that the parents should be in the saying that the parents should be in the prime of life very true and what is the prime of life very true and what is the prime of life very true and what is the prime of life may it not be defined as a prime of life may it not be defined as a prime of life may it not be defined as a period of about 20 years in a woman's period of about 20 years in a woman's period of about 20 years in a woman's life and 30 in a man's which years do life and 30 in a man's which years do life and 30 in a man's which years do you mean to include a woman I said that you mean to include a woman I said that you mean to include a woman I said that 20 years of age may begin to bear 20 years of age may begin to bear 20 years of age may begin to bear children to the states and continue to children to the states and continue to children to the states and continue to bear them until 40 a man may begin at 5 bear them until 40 a man may begin at 5 bear them until 40 a man may begin at 5 and 20 when he has passed the point at and 20 when he has passed the point at and 20 when he has passed the point at which the pulse of life beats quickest which the pulse of life beats quickest which the pulse of life beats quickest and continued to beget children until he and continued to beget children until he and continued to beget children until he be 55 certainly he said both in men and be 55 certainly he said both in men and be 55 certainly he said both in men and women those years of the prime of women those years of the prime of women those years of the prime of physical as well as of intellectual physical as well as of intellectual physical as well as of intellectual vigour anyone above or below that vigour anyone above or below that vigour anyone above or below that prescribed ages who takes part in the

prescribed ages who takes part in the prescribed ages who takes part in the public eye many olds shall be said to public eye many olds shall be said to public eye many olds shall be said to have done an unholy an unrighteous thing have done an unholy an unrighteous thing have done an unholy an unrighteous thing the child of which he is the father if the child of which he is the father if the child of which he is the father if it steals into life will have been it steals into life will have been it steals into life will have been conceived under auspices very unlike the conceived under auspices very unlike the conceived under auspices very unlike the sacrifices and prayers which at each sacrifices and prayers which at each sacrifices and prayers which at each high menial the priestesses and priests high menial the priestesses and priests high menial the priestesses and priests and the whole city will offer that the and the whole city will offer that the and the whole city will offer that the new generation may be better and more new generation may be better and more new generation may be better and more useful than their good and useful useful than their good and useful useful than their good and useful parents for as his child will be the parents for as his child will be the parents for as his child will be the offspring of darkness and strange lust offspring of darkness and strange lust offspring of darkness and strange lust very truly replied and the same law will very truly replied and the same law will very truly replied and the same law will apply to any one of those within the apply to any one of those within the apply to any one of those within the prescribed age who forms a connection prescribed age who forms a connection prescribed age who forms a connection with any woman in the prime of life with any woman in the prime of life with any woman in the prime of life without the sanction of the rulers for without the sanction of the rulers for without the sanction of the rulers for we shall say that he is racing up a we shall say that he is racing up a we shall say that he is racing up a bastard to the state uncertified and bastard to the state uncertified and bastard to the state uncertified and unconsecrated very true unconsecrated very true unconsecrated very true replied this applies however only to replied this applies however only to replied this applies however only to those who are within the specified age those who are within the specified age those who are within the specified age after that we allow them to range it after that we allow them to range it after that we allow them to range it will accept that a man may not bury his will accept that a man may not bury his will accept that a man may not bury his daughter or his daughter's daughter or daughter or his daughter's daughter or daughter or his daughter's daughter or his mother or his mother's mother and his mother or his mother's mother and his mother or his mother's mother and women on the other hand are prohibited women on the other hand are prohibited women on the other hand are prohibited from marrying their sons or Father's or from marrying their sons or Father's or from marrying their sons or Father's or son son or fathers father and so on in son son or fathers father and so on in son son or fathers father and so on in either direction and we grant all this either direction and we grant all this either direction and we grant all this accompanying the permission with strict accompanying the permission with strict accompanying the permission with strict orders to prevent any embryo which may orders to prevent any embryo which may orders to prevent any embryo which may come into being from seeing the light come into being from seeing the light come into being from seeing the light and if any force away to the birth the and if any force away to the birth the and if any force away to the birth the parents must understand that the parents must understand that the parents must understand that the offspring of such an Union cannot be

offspring of such an Union cannot be offspring of such an Union cannot be maintained and arranged accordingly then maintained and arranged accordingly then maintained and arranged accordingly then also they said is a reasonable also they said is a reasonable also they said is a reasonable proposition but how will they know who proposition but how will they know who proposition but how will they know who our fathers and daughters and so on they our fathers and daughters and so on they our fathers and daughters and so on they will never know the way he will be this will never know the way he will be this will never know the way he will be this dating from the day of the high menial dating from the day of the high menial dating from the day of the high menial the bridegroom who was then married will the bridegroom who was then married will the bridegroom who was then married will call all the male children who are born call all the male children who are born call all the male children who are born in the seventh and tenth month in the seventh and tenth month in the seventh and tenth month afterwards his sons and the female afterwards his sons and the female afterwards his sons and the female children his daughters and they will children his daughters and they will children his daughters and they will call him father and he will call their call him father and he will call their call him father and he will call their children his grandchildren and they will children his grandchildren and they will children his grandchildren and they will call the elder generation grandfathers call the elder generation grandfathers call the elder generation grandfathers and grandmothers all who were begotten and grandmothers all who were begotten and grandmothers all who were begotten at the time when their fathers and at the time when their fathers and at the time when their fathers and mothers came together will be called mothers came together will be called mothers came together will be called their brothers and sisters and these as their brothers and sisters and these as their brothers and sisters and these as I was saying will be forbidden to I was saying will be forbidden to I was saying will be forbidden to intermarry this however is not to be intermarry this however is not to be intermarry this however is not to be understood as an absolute prohibition of understood as an absolute prohibition of understood as an absolute prohibition of the marriage of brothers and sisters if the marriage of brothers and sisters if the marriage of brothers and sisters if the Lord saves them and they receive the the Lord saves them and they receive the the Lord saves them and they receive the sanction of the Pythian Oracle the law sanction of the Pythian Oracle the law sanction of the Pythian Oracle the law will allow them quite right they replied will allow them quite right they replied will allow them quite right they replied such is the scheme Glaucon according to such is the scheme Glaucon according to such is the scheme Glaucon according to which guardians of our state are to have which guardians of our state are to have which guardians of our state are to have their wives and families in common and their wives and families in common and their wives and families in common and now you would have the arguments show now you would have the arguments show now you would have the arguments show that this community is consistent with that this community is consistent with that this community is consistent with the rest of our polity and also that the rest of our polity and also that the rest of our polity and also that nothing can be better would you not yes nothing can be better would you not yes nothing can be better would you not yes certainly certainly certainly shall we try to find a common basis by shall we try to find a common basis by shall we try to find a common basis by asking of ourselves what ought to be the asking of ourselves what ought to be the asking of ourselves what ought to be the chief aim of the legislature in making chief aim of the legislature in making chief aim of the legislature in making laws and in the organization of the laws and in the organization of the laws and in the organization of the state what is the greatest good and what

state what is the greatest good and what state what is the greatest good and what is the greatest evil is the greatest evil is the greatest evil and then consider whether our previous and then consider whether our previous and then consider whether our previous description has the stamp of the good or description has the stamp of the good or description has the stamp of the good or of the evil by all means book 5 part 2 of the Republic by Plato book 5 part 2 of the Republic by Plato this LibriVox recording is in the public this LibriVox recording is in the public this LibriVox recording is in the public domain read by Bob Neufeld can there be any greater evil than can there be any greater evil than discord and distraction and plurality discord and distraction and plurality discord and distraction and plurality where unity ought to reign or any where unity ought to reign or any where unity ought to reign or any greater good than the bond of unity or greater good than the bond of unity or greater good than the bond of unity or there cannot and there is unity where there cannot and there is unity where there cannot and there is unity where there is community of pleasures and there is community of pleasures and there is community of pleasures and pains where all the citizens are glad or pains where all the citizens are glad or pains where all the citizens are glad or grieved on the same occasions of joy and grieved on the same occasions of joy and grieved on the same occasions of joy and sorrow no doubt yes and where there is sorrow no doubt yes and where there is sorrow no doubt yes and where there is no common but only private feeling a no common but only private feeling a no common but only private feeling a state is disorganized when you have one state is disorganized when you have one state is disorganized when you have one half of the world triumphing and the half of the world triumphing and the half of the world triumphing and the other plunged in grief at the same other plunged in grief at the same other plunged in grief at the same events happening to the city or the events happening to the city or the events happening to the city or the citizens certainly such differences citizens certainly such differences citizens certainly such differences commonly originate in a disagreement commonly originate in a disagreement commonly originate in a disagreement about the use of the terms mine and not about the use of the terms mine and not about the use of the terms mine and not mine mine mine his and not his exactly so and is not his and not his exactly so and is not his and not his exactly so and is not that the best ordered state in which the that the best ordered state in which the that the best ordered state in which the greatest number of persons apply the greatest number of persons apply the greatest number of persons apply the terms mine and not mine in the same way

terms mine and not mine in the same way terms mine and not mine in the same way to the same thing quite true or that to the same thing quite true or that to the same thing quite true or that again which most nearly approaches to again which most nearly approaches to again which most nearly approaches to the condition of the individual as in the condition of the individual as in the condition of the individual as in the body when but a finger of one of us the body when but a finger of one of us the body when but a finger of one of us is hurt the whole frame drawn towards is hurt the whole frame drawn towards is hurt the whole frame drawn towards the soul as a center and forming one the soul as a center and forming one the soul as a center and forming one kingdom under the ruling power therein kingdom under the ruling power therein kingdom under the ruling power therein feels the hurt and sympathizes feels the hurt and sympathizes feels the hurt and sympathizes altogether with the part affected and we altogether with the part affected and we altogether with the part affected and we say that the man has a pain and his say that the man has a pain and his say that the man has a pain and his finger and the same expression is used finger and the same expression is used finger and the same expression is used about any other part of the body which about any other part of the body which about any other part of the body which has a sensation of pain at suffering or has a sensation of pain at suffering or has a sensation of pain at suffering or of pleasure at the alleviation of of pleasure at the alleviation of of pleasure at the alleviation of suffering very true suffering very true suffering very true they replied and I agree with you that they replied and I agree with you that they replied and I agree with you that in the best ordered state there is the in the best ordered state there is the in the best ordered state there is the nearest approach to this common feeling nearest approach to this common feeling nearest approach to this common feeling which you describe then when any one of which you describe then when any one of which you describe then when any one of the citizens experiences any good or the citizens experiences any good or the citizens experiences any good or evil the whole state will make his case evil the whole state will make his case evil the whole state will make his case their own and will either rejoice or their own and will either rejoice or their own and will either rejoice or sorrow with him yes he said that is what sorrow with him yes he said that is what sorrow with him yes he said that is what will happen in a well-ordered state it will happen in a well-ordered state it will happen in a well-ordered state it will now be time I said for us to return will now be time I said for us to return will now be time I said for us to return to our state and see whether this or to our state and see whether this or to our state and see whether this or some other form is most in accordance some other form is most in accordance some other form is most in accordance with these fundamental principles very with these fundamental principles very with these fundamental principles very good good good our state like every other has rulers our state like every other has rulers our state like every other has rulers and subjects true all of who will call and subjects true all of who will call and subjects true all of who will call one another citizens of course but is one another citizens of course but is one another citizens of course but is there not another name which people give there not another name which people give there not another name which people give to their rulers in other states to their rulers in other states to their rulers in other states generally they call them masters but in generally they call them masters but in generally they call them masters but in democratic states they simply call the democratic states they simply call the democratic states they simply call the broilers and in our state's what other

broilers and in our state's what other broilers and in our state's what other name besides that of citizens do the name besides that of citizens do the name besides that of citizens do the people give the rulers they are called people give the rulers they are called people give the rulers they are called saviors and helpers he replied and what saviors and helpers he replied and what saviors and helpers he replied and what did the rulers call the people they're did the rulers call the people they're did the rulers call the people they're maintained errs and foster fathers and maintained errs and foster fathers and maintained errs and foster fathers and what did they call them in other states what did they call them in other states what did they call them in other states slaves and what did the brothers call slaves and what did the brothers call slaves and what did the brothers call one another in other states fellow one another in other states fellow one another in other states fellow rulers and what in ours fellow Guardians rulers and what in ours fellow Guardians rulers and what in ours fellow Guardians did you ever know an example in any did you ever know an example in any did you ever know an example in any other state of a ruler who would speak other state of a ruler who would speak other state of a ruler who would speak of one of his colleagues as his friend of one of his colleagues as his friend of one of his colleagues as his friend and of another as not being his friend and of another as not being his friend and of another as not being his friend yes very often and the friend he regards yes very often and the friend he regards yes very often and the friend he regards and describes as one in whom he has an and describes as one in whom he has an and describes as one in whom he has an interest and the other as a stranger in interest and the other as a stranger in interest and the other as a stranger in whom he has no interest exactly but what whom he has no interest exactly but what whom he has no interest exactly but what any of your Guardians think or speak of any of your Guardians think or speak of any of your Guardians think or speak of any other guardians as a stranger any other guardians as a stranger any other guardians as a stranger certainly he would not for every one certainly he would not for every one certainly he would not for every one whom they meet will be regarded by them whom they meet will be regarded by them whom they meet will be regarded by them either as a brother or sister or father either as a brother or sister or father either as a brother or sister or father or mother or son or daughter or as the or mother or son or daughter or as the or mother or son or daughter or as the child or parent of those who are thus child or parent of those who are thus child or parent of those who are thus connected with him capital I said but connected with him capital I said but connected with him capital I said but let me ask you once more shall they be a let me ask you once more shall they be a let me ask you once more shall they be a family in name only or shall they in all family in name only or shall they in all family in name only or shall they in all their actions be true to the name for their actions be true to the name for their actions be true to the name for example in the use of the word father example in the use of the word father example in the use of the word father with the care of a father be implied and with the care of a father be implied and with the care of a father be implied and the filial reverence and duty and the filial reverence and duty and the filial reverence and duty and obedience to him which the law commands obedience to him which the law commands obedience to him which the law commands and is the violator of these duties to and is the violator of these duties to and is the violator of these duties to be regarded as an empire as an

be regarded as an empire as an be regarded as an empire as an unrighteous person who is not likely to unrighteous person who is not likely to unrighteous person who is not likely to receive much good either at the hands of receive much good either at the hands of receive much good either at the hands of God or a man are these to be or not to God or a man are these to be or not to God or a man are these to be or not to be the strains which the children will be the strains which the children will be the strains which the children will hear repeated in their years by all the hear repeated in their years by all the hear repeated in their years by all the citizens about those who are intimated citizens about those who are intimated citizens about those who are intimated to them to be their parents and the rest to them to be their parents and the rest to them to be their parents and the rest of their kinsfolk of their kinsfolk of their kinsfolk these he said and none other for what these he said and none other for what these he said and none other for what can be more ridiculous than for them to can be more ridiculous than for them to can be more ridiculous than for them to utter the names of family ties with utter the names of family ties with utter the names of family ties with ellipse only and not to act in the ellipse only and not to act in the ellipse only and not to act in the spirit of them then in our city the spirit of them then in our city the spirit of them then in our city the language of harmony and Concorde will be language of harmony and Concorde will be language of harmony and Concorde will be more often her than in any other as I more often her than in any other as I more often her than in any other as I was describing before when anyone is was describing before when anyone is was describing before when anyone is well or ill the universal word will be well or ill the universal word will be well or ill the universal word will be with me it is well or it is ill most with me it is well or it is ill most with me it is well or it is ill most true and agreeably to this mode of true and agreeably to this mode of true and agreeably to this mode of thinking and speaking were we not saying thinking and speaking were we not saying thinking and speaking were we not saying that they will have their pleasures and that they will have their pleasures and that they will have their pleasures and pains in common yes and so they will and pains in common yes and so they will and pains in common yes and so they will and they will have a common interest in the they will have a common interest in the they will have a common interest in the same thing which they all will alike same thing which they all will alike same thing which they all will alike called my own and having this common called my own and having this common called my own and having this common interest they will have a common feeling interest they will have a common feeling interest they will have a common feeling of pleasure and pain yes far more so of pleasure and pain yes far more so of pleasure and pain yes far more so than in other states and the reason of than in other states and the reason of than in other states and the reason of this over and above the general this over and above the general this over and above the general Constitution of the state will be that Constitution of the state will be that Constitution of the state will be that the Guardians will have a community of the Guardians will have a community of the Guardians will have a community of women and children that will be the women and children that will be the women and children that will be the chief reason and this unity of feeling chief reason and this unity of feeling chief reason and this unity of feeling we admitted to be the greatest good as we admitted to be the greatest good as we admitted to be the greatest good as was implied in our own comparison of a

was implied in our own comparison of a was implied in our own comparison of a well-ordered state to the relation of well-ordered state to the relation of well-ordered state to the relation of the body and the members when affected the body and the members when affected the body and the members when affected by pleasure or pain that we acknowledged by pleasure or pain that we acknowledged by pleasure or pain that we acknowledged and very rightly then the community of and very rightly then the community of and very rightly then the community of wives and children among our citizens is wives and children among our citizens is wives and children among our citizens is clearly the source of the greatest good clearly the source of the greatest good clearly the source of the greatest good to the state certainly and this agrees to the state certainly and this agrees to the state certainly and this agrees with the other principle which we were with the other principle which we were with the other principle which we were affirming that the guardians were not to affirming that the guardians were not to affirming that the guardians were not to have houses or lands or any other have houses or lands or any other have houses or lands or any other property their pay was to be their food property their pay was to be their food property their pay was to be their food which they were to receive from other which they were to receive from other which they were to receive from other citizens and they were to have no citizens and they were to have no citizens and they were to have no private expenses for we intended them to private expenses for we intended them to private expenses for we intended them to preserve their true character of preserve their true character of preserve their true character of Guardians right he replied both the Guardians right he replied both the Guardians right he replied both the community of property and the community community of property and the community community of property and the community of families as I am saying tend to make of families as I am saying tend to make of families as I am saying tend to make them more truly guardians they will not them more truly guardians they will not them more truly guardians they will not tear the city in pieces by differing tear the city in pieces by differing tear the city in pieces by differing about mine and not mine about mine and not mine about mine and not mine each man dragging any acquisition which each man dragging any acquisition which each man dragging any acquisition which he has made into a separate house of his he has made into a separate house of his he has made into a separate house of his own where he has a separate wife and own where he has a separate wife and own where he has a separate wife and children and children and children and private pleasures and pains but all will private pleasures and pains but all will private pleasures and pains but all will be affected as far as maybe by the same be affected as far as maybe by the same be affected as far as maybe by the same pleasures and pains because they are all pleasures and pains because they are all pleasures and pains because they are all of one opinion about what is near and of one opinion about what is near and of one opinion about what is near and dear to them and therefore they all tend dear to them and therefore they all tend dear to them and therefore they all tend towards a common end certainly he towards a common end certainly he towards a common end certainly he replied and as they have nothing but replied and as they have nothing but replied and as they have nothing but their persons which they can call their their persons which they can call their their persons which they can call their own suits and complaints will have no own suits and complaints will have no own suits and complaints will have no existence among them they will be existence among them they will be existence among them they will be delivered from all those quarrels of delivered from all those quarrels of delivered from all those quarrels of which money or children or relations are

which money or children or relations are which money or children or relations are the occasion of course they will the occasion of course they will the occasion of course they will neither will trials for assault or neither will trials for assault or neither will trials for assault or insult ever be likely to occur among insult ever be likely to occur among insult ever be likely to occur among them for that equals should defend them for that equals should defend them for that equals should defend themselves against equals we shall themselves against equals we shall themselves against equals we shall maintain to be honorable and right we maintain to be honorable and right we maintain to be honorable and right we shall make the protection of the person shall make the protection of the person shall make the protection of the person a matter of necessity that is good he a matter of necessity that is good he a matter of necessity that is good he said yes and there is a further good in said yes and there is a further good in said yes and there is a further good in the law that is that if a man has a the law that is that if a man has a the law that is that if a man has a quarrel with another he will satisfy his quarrel with another he will satisfy his quarrel with another he will satisfy his resentment then and there and not resentment then and there and not resentment then and there and not proceed to more dangerous lengths proceed to more dangerous lengths proceed to more dangerous lengths certainly to the elder shall be assigned certainly to the elder shall be assigned certainly to the elder shall be assigned the duty of ruling and chastising the the duty of ruling and chastising the the duty of ruling and chastising the younger clearly nor can there be a doubt younger clearly nor can there be a doubt younger clearly nor can there be a doubt that the younger will not strike or do that the younger will not strike or do that the younger will not strike or do any other violence to an elder unless any other violence to an elder unless any other violence to an elder unless the magistrates command him nor will he the magistrates command him nor will he the magistrates command him nor will he slight him in any way for there are two slight him in any way for there are two slight him in any way for there are two Guardians Scheib and fear Martita Guardians Scheib and fear Martita Guardians Scheib and fear Martita prevent him shame which makes men prevent him shame which makes men prevent him shame which makes men refrain from laying hands on those who refrain from laying hands on those who refrain from laying hands on those who are to them in the relation of parents are to them in the relation of parents are to them in the relation of parents fear that the injured one will be fear that the injured one will be fear that the injured one will be suckered by the others who are his suckered by the others who are his suckered by the others who are his brother's sons and fathers that is true brother's sons and fathers that is true brother's sons and fathers that is true he replied then in every way the laws he replied then in every way the laws he replied then in every way the laws will help the citizens to keep the peace will help the citizens to keep the peace will help the citizens to keep the peace with one another yes there will be no with one another yes there will be no with one another yes there will be no want of peace and as the Guardians will want of peace and as the Guardians will want of peace and as the Guardians will never quarrel among themselves there never quarrel among themselves there never quarrel among themselves there will be no danger of the rest of the will be no danger of the rest of the will be no danger of the rest of the city being divided either against them city being divided either against them city being divided either against them or against one another not whatever I

or against one another not whatever I or against one another not whatever I hardly like even to mention the little hardly like even to mention the little hardly like even to mention the little meanness 'as of which they will be rid meanness 'as of which they will be rid meanness 'as of which they will be rid for they are beneath notice such for for they are beneath notice such for for they are beneath notice such for example as the flattery of the rich example as the flattery of the rich example as the flattery of the rich mother poor mother poor mother poor and all the pains and pangs which men and all the pains and pangs which men and all the pains and pangs which men experience of bringing up a family and experience of bringing up a family and experience of bringing up a family and in finding money to buy necessaries for in finding money to buy necessaries for in finding money to buy necessaries for their household borrowing and then their household borrowing and then their household borrowing and then repudiating getting how they can and repudiating getting how they can and repudiating getting how they can and giving the money into the hands of women giving the money into the hands of women giving the money into the hands of women and slaves to keep the many evils of so and slaves to keep the many evils of so and slaves to keep the many evils of so many kinds which people suffer in this many kinds which people suffer in this many kinds which people suffer in this way or mean enough and obvious enough way or mean enough and obvious enough way or mean enough and obvious enough and not worth speaking of yes he said a and not worth speaking of yes he said a and not worth speaking of yes he said a man has no need of eyes in order to man has no need of eyes in order to man has no need of eyes in order to perceive that and from all these evils perceive that and from all these evils perceive that and from all these evils they will be delivered and their life they will be delivered and their life they will be delivered and their life will be blessed as the life of Olympic will be blessed as the life of Olympic will be blessed as the life of Olympic victors and yet more blessed how so victors and yet more blessed how so victors and yet more blessed how so the Olympic Victor I said is deemed the Olympic Victor I said is deemed the Olympic Victor I said is deemed happy in receiving a part only of the happy in receiving a part only of the happy in receiving a part only of the blessedness which is secured to our blessedness which is secured to our blessedness which is secured to our citizens who have won a more glorious citizens who have won a more glorious citizens who have won a more glorious victory and have a more complete victory and have a more complete victory and have a more complete maintenance at the public cost for the maintenance at the public cost for the maintenance at the public cost for the victory which they have won is the victory which they have won is the victory which they have won is the salvation of the whole state and the salvation of the whole state and the salvation of the whole state and the crown with which they and their children crown with which they and their children crown with which they and their children are crowned is the fullness of all that are crowned is the fullness of all that are crowned is the fullness of all that life needs they receive rewards from the life needs they receive rewards from the life needs they receive rewards from the hands of their country while living and hands of their country while living and hands of their country while living and after death have an honorable burial yes after death have an honorable burial yes after death have an honorable burial yes he said and glorious rewards they are do he said and glorious rewards they are do he said and glorious rewards they are do you remember I said how in the course of

you remember I said how in the course of you remember I said how in the course of the previous discussion someone who the previous discussion someone who the previous discussion someone who shall remain nameless accused us of shall remain nameless accused us of shall remain nameless accused us of making our Guardians unhappy they had making our Guardians unhappy they had making our Guardians unhappy they had nothing and might have possessed all nothing and might have possessed all nothing and might have possessed all things to whom we replied that if an things to whom we replied that if an things to whom we replied that if an occasion offered we might perhaps occasion offered we might perhaps occasion offered we might perhaps hereafter consider this question but hereafter consider this question but hereafter consider this question but that as that present advised we would that as that present advised we would that as that present advised we would make our guardians truly guardians and make our guardians truly guardians and make our guardians truly guardians and that we were fashioning the state with a that we were fashioning the state with a that we were fashioning the state with a view to the greatest happiness not of view to the greatest happiness not of view to the greatest happiness not of any particular class but of the whole any particular class but of the whole any particular class but of the whole yes I remember and what do you say now yes I remember and what do you say now yes I remember and what do you say now that the life of our protectors is made that the life of our protectors is made that the life of our protectors is made out to be far better and nobler than out to be far better and nobler than out to be far better and nobler than that of Olympic Victor's is the life of that of Olympic Victor's is the life of that of Olympic Victor's is the life of shoemakers or any other artisans or of shoemakers or any other artisans or of shoemakers or any other artisans or of husbandmen to be compared with it or husbandmen to be compared with it or husbandmen to be compared with it or certainly not at the same time I are certainly not at the same time I are certainly not at the same time I are here to repeat what I have said here to repeat what I have said here to repeat what I have said elsewhere that if any of our guardians elsewhere that if any of our guardians elsewhere that if any of our guardians shall try to shall try to shall try to be happy in such a manner that he will be happy in such a manner that he will be happy in such a manner that he will cease to be a guardian and is not cease to be a guardian and is not cease to be a guardian and is not content with this safe and harmonious content with this safe and harmonious content with this safe and harmonious life which in our judgment is of all life which in our judgment is of all life which in our judgment is of all lives the best but infatuated by some lives the best but infatuated by some lives the best but infatuated by some youthful conceit of happiness which gets youthful conceit of happiness which gets youthful conceit of happiness which gets up into his head shall seek to up into his head shall seek to up into his head shall seek to appropriate the whole state to himself appropriate the whole state to himself appropriate the whole state to himself then he will have to learn how wisely then he will have to learn how wisely then he will have to learn how wisely Hesiod spoke when he said half is more Hesiod spoke when he said half is more Hesiod spoke when he said half is more than the whole if he were to consult me than the whole if he were to consult me than the whole if he were to consult me I should say to him stay where you are I should say to him stay where you are I should say to him stay where you are when you have the offer of such a life when you have the offer of such a life when you have the offer of such a life you agree then I said that men and women

you agree then I said that men and women you agree then I said that men and women are to have a common way of life such as are to have a common way of life such as are to have a common way of life such as we have described common education we have described common education we have described common education common children and they are to watch common children and they are to watch common children and they are to watch over the citizens in common whether over the citizens in common whether over the citizens in common whether abiding in the city of going out to war abiding in the city of going out to war abiding in the city of going out to war they are to keep watch together and to they are to keep watch together and to they are to keep watch together and to hunt together like dogs and always and hunt together like dogs and always and hunt together like dogs and always and in all things as far as they are able in all things as far as they are able in all things as far as they are able women are to share with the men and in women are to share with the men and in women are to share with the men and in so doing they will do what is best and so doing they will do what is best and so doing they will do what is best and will not violate but preserve the will not violate but preserve the will not violate but preserve the natural relation of the sexes I agree natural relation of the sexes I agree natural relation of the sexes I agree with you he replied with you he replied with you he replied the inquiry I said has yet to be made the inquiry I said has yet to be made the inquiry I said has yet to be made whether such a community be found whether such a community be found whether such a community be found possible as among other animals so also possible as among other animals so also possible as among other animals so also among men and if possible in what way among men and if possible in what way among men and if possible in what way possible possible possible you have anticipated the question which you have anticipated the question which you have anticipated the question which I was about to suggest there is no I was about to suggest there is no I was about to suggest there is no difficulty I said in seeing how war will difficulty I said in seeing how war will difficulty I said in seeing how war will be carried on by them how why of course be carried on by them how why of course be carried on by them how why of course they will go on expeditions together and they will go on expeditions together and they will go on expeditions together and will take with the many of their will take with the many of their will take with the many of their children who are strong enough that children who are strong enough that children who are strong enough that after the manner of the artisans child after the manner of the artisans child after the manner of the artisans child they may look on at the work which they they may look on at the work which they they may look on at the work which they will have to do when they are grown up will have to do when they are grown up will have to do when they are grown up and besides looking on they will have to and besides looking on they will have to and besides looking on they will have to help and be of use in war and to wait help and be of use in war and to wait help and be of use in war and to wait upon their fathers and mothers did you upon their fathers and mothers did you upon their fathers and mothers did you never observe in the arts how the never observe in the arts how the never observe in the arts how the Potters boys look on and help long Potters boys look on and help long Potters boys look on and help long before they touch the wheel yes I have before they touch the wheel yes I have before they touch the wheel yes I have and shall Potters be more careful in and shall Potters be more careful in and shall Potters be more careful in educating their children and in giving

educating their children and in giving educating their children and in giving them the opportunity of seeing and them the opportunity of seeing and them the opportunity of seeing and practicing their duties then our practicing their duties then our practicing their duties then our guardians will be the idea is ridiculous guardians will be the idea is ridiculous guardians will be the idea is ridiculous he said he said he said there is also the effect other parents there is also the effect other parents there is also the effect other parents with whom as with other animals the with whom as with other animals the with whom as with other animals the presence of their young ones will be the presence of their young ones will be the presence of their young ones will be the greatest incentive to valor that is greatest incentive to valor that is greatest incentive to valor that is quite true Socrates and yet if they are quite true Socrates and yet if they are quite true Socrates and yet if they are defeated which may often happen in war defeated which may often happen in war defeated which may often happen in war how great the danger is the children how great the danger is the children how great the danger is the children will be lost as well as their parents will be lost as well as their parents will be lost as well as their parents and the state will never recover true I and the state will never recover true I and the state will never recover true I said but would you never allow them to said but would you never allow them to said but would you never allow them to run any risk I am far from saying that run any risk I am far from saying that run any risk I am far from saying that well but if they are ever to run a risk well but if they are ever to run a risk well but if they are ever to run a risk should they not do so on some occasion should they not do so on some occasion should they not do so on some occasion when if they escape disaster they will when if they escape disaster they will when if they escape disaster they will be the better for it clearly whether the be the better for it clearly whether the be the better for it clearly whether the future soldiers do or do not see war in future soldiers do or do not see war in future soldiers do or do not see war in the days of their youth is a very the days of their youth is a very the days of their youth is a very important matter for the sake of which important matter for the sake of which important matter for the sake of which some risk may fairly be incurred yes some risk may fairly be incurred yes some risk may fairly be incurred yes very important this there must be our very important this there must be our very important this there must be our first step then make our children first step then make our children first step then make our children spectators of war but we must also spectators of war but we must also spectators of war but we must also contrive that they shall be secured contrive that they shall be secured contrive that they shall be secured against danger then all will be well against danger then all will be well against danger then all will be well true their parents may be supposed not true their parents may be supposed not true their parents may be supposed not to be blind to the risks of war but to to be blind to the risks of war but to to be blind to the risks of war but to know as far as human foresight can what know as far as human foresight can what know as far as human foresight can what expositions are safe and what dangerous expositions are safe and what dangerous expositions are safe and what dangerous that may be assumed and they will take that may be assumed and they will take that may be assumed and they will take them on the safe expeditions and be

them on the safe expeditions and be them on the safe expeditions and be cautious about the dangerous ones true cautious about the dangerous ones true cautious about the dangerous ones true and they will place them under the and they will place them under the and they will place them under the command of experienced veterans who will command of experienced veterans who will command of experienced veterans who will be their leaders and teachers very be their leaders and teachers very be their leaders and teachers very properly still the dangers of war cannot properly still the dangers of war cannot properly still the dangers of war cannot be always foreseen there is a good deal be always foreseen there is a good deal be always foreseen there is a good deal of chance about them true then against of chance about them true then against of chance about them true then against such chances the children must be at such chances the children must be at such chances the children must be at once furnished with wings in order that once furnished with wings in order that once furnished with wings in order that in the hour of need they may fly away in the hour of need they may fly away in the hour of need they may fly away and escape what do you mean he said and escape what do you mean he said and escape what do you mean he said I mean that we must mount them on horses I mean that we must mount them on horses I mean that we must mount them on horses in their earliest youth and when they in their earliest youth and when they in their earliest youth and when they have learnt to ride take them on have learnt to ride take them on have learnt to ride take them on horseback to see war the horses must not horseback to see war the horses must not horseback to see war the horses must not be spirited and warlike but the most be spirited and warlike but the most be spirited and warlike but the most tractable and yet the swiftness that can tractable and yet the swiftness that can tractable and yet the swiftness that can be had in this way they will get an be had in this way they will get an be had in this way they will get an excellent view of what is hereafter to excellent view of what is hereafter to excellent view of what is hereafter to be their own business and if there is be their own business and if there is be their own business and if there is danger they have only to follow their danger they have only to follow their danger they have only to follow their elder leaders and escape elder leaders and escape elder leaders and escape I believe it you are right he said next I believe it you are right he said next I believe it you are right he said next as to war as to war as to war what are to be the relations of your what are to be the relations of your what are to be the relations of your soldiers to one another and to their soldiers to one another and to their soldiers to one another and to their enemies enemies enemies I should be inclined to propose that the I should be inclined to propose that the I should be inclined to propose that the soldier who leaves his rank or throws soldier who leaves his rank or throws soldier who leaves his rank or throws away his arms or is guilty of any other away his arms or is guilty of any other away his arms or is guilty of any other act of cowardice should be degraded into act of cowardice should be degraded into act of cowardice should be degraded into the rank of a husbandmen door artisan the rank of a husbandmen door artisan the rank of a husbandmen door artisan what do you think by all means I should what do you think by all means I should what do you think by all means I should say and he who allows himself to be say and he who allows himself to be say and he who allows himself to be taken prisoner may as well be made a taken prisoner may as well be made a taken prisoner may as well be made a present of to his enemies he is their

present of to his enemies he is their present of to his enemies he is their lawful prey and let them do what they lawful prey and let them do what they lawful prey and let them do what they like with him certainly but the hero who like with him certainly but the hero who like with him certainly but the hero who has distinguished himself what shall be has distinguished himself what shall be has distinguished himself what shall be done to him in the first place he shall done to him in the first place he shall done to him in the first place he shall receive honor in the army from his receive honor in the army from his receive honor in the army from his youthful comrades every one of them in youthful comrades every one of them in youthful comrades every one of them in succession shall crown him what do you succession shall crown him what do you succession shall crown him what do you say I approve and what do you say to his say I approve and what do you say to his say I approve and what do you say to his receiving the right hand of fellowship - receiving the right hand of fellowship - receiving the right hand of fellowship - that - I agreed but you will hardly that - I agreed but you will hardly that - I agreed but you will hardly agree to my next proposal what is your agree to my next proposal what is your agree to my next proposal what is your proposal that he should kiss and be proposal that he should kiss and be proposal that he should kiss and be kissed by them who most certainly and I kissed by them who most certainly and I kissed by them who most certainly and I should be disposed to go further and say should be disposed to go further and say should be disposed to go further and say that no one whom he has a mind to kiss that no one whom he has a mind to kiss that no one whom he has a mind to kiss refuse to be kissed by him while the refuse to be kissed by him while the refuse to be kissed by him while the expedition lasts so that if there be a expedition lasts so that if there be a expedition lasts so that if there be a lover in the army whether his love be lover in the army whether his love be lover in the army whether his love be youth or maiden he may be more eager to youth or maiden he may be more eager to youth or maiden he may be more eager to win the prize of valor capital I said win the prize of valor capital I said win the prize of valor capital I said that the brave man is to have more wives that the brave man is to have more wives that the brave man is to have more wives than others has been already determined than others has been already determined than others has been already determined and he is to have first choices in such and he is to have first choices in such and he is to have first choices in such matters more than others in order that matters more than others in order that matters more than others in order that he may have as many children as possible he may have as many children as possible he may have as many children as possible agreed again there is another manner in agreed again there is another manner in agreed again there is another manner in which according to Homer which according to Homer which according to Homer brave youths shall be honored for he brave youths shall be honored for he brave youths shall be honored for he tells our Ajax after he had tells our Ajax after he had tells our Ajax after he had distinguished himself in battle was distinguished himself in battle was distinguished himself in battle was rewarded with long shines which seems to rewarded with long shines which seems to rewarded with long shines which seems to be a compliment appropriate to a hero in be a compliment appropriate to a hero in be a compliment appropriate to a hero in the flower of his age being not only a the flower of his age being not only a the flower of his age being not only a tribute of honor but also a very tribute of honor but also a very tribute of honor but also a very strengthening thing most true he said

strengthening thing most true he said strengthening thing most true he said then in this I said Homer shall be our then in this I said Homer shall be our then in this I said Homer shall be our teacher then we to let sacrifices and on teacher then we to let sacrifices and on teacher then we to let sacrifices and on like occasions will honor the brave like occasions will honor the brave like occasions will honor the brave according to the measure of their valor according to the measure of their valor according to the measure of their valor whether men or women with hymns and whether men or women with hymns and whether men or women with hymns and those other distinctions which we are those other distinctions which we are those other distinctions which we are mentioning also with seats of precedence mentioning also with seats of precedence mentioning also with seats of precedence and meats and full cups and in honoring and meats and full cups and in honoring and meats and full cups and in honoring them we shall be at the same time them we shall be at the same time them we shall be at the same time training them that they replied is training them that they replied is training them that they replied is excellent yes I said and when a man dies excellent yes I said and when a man dies excellent yes I said and when a man dies gloriously in war shall we not say in gloriously in war shall we not say in gloriously in war shall we not say in the first place that he is of the golden the first place that he is of the golden the first place that he is of the golden race to be sure hey have we not the race to be sure hey have we not the race to be sure hey have we not the authority of Hesiod authority of Hesiod authority of Hesiod for affirming that when they are dead for affirming that when they are dead for affirming that when they are dead they are holy angels upon the earth they are holy angels upon the earth they are holy angels upon the earth authors of good a virtus of evil the authors of good a virtus of evil the authors of good a virtus of evil the guardians of speech gifted men yes and guardians of speech gifted men yes and guardians of speech gifted men yes and we accept his authority we must learn of we accept his authority we must learn of we accept his authority we must learn of the God how we are to order the the God how we are to order the the God how we are to order the Sepulcher of divine and heroic Sepulcher of divine and heroic Sepulcher of divine and heroic personages and what is to be their personages and what is to be their personages and what is to be their specific distinction and we must do as specific distinction and we must do as specific distinction and we must do as he bids by all means and in ages to come he bids by all means and in ages to come he bids by all means and in ages to come we will reverence them and kneel before we will reverence them and kneel before we will reverence them and kneel before their Sepulcher zazz at the graves of their Sepulcher zazz at the graves of their Sepulcher zazz at the graves of heroes and not only they but any who are heroes and not only they but any who are heroes and not only they but any who are deemed pre-eminently good whether they deemed pre-eminently good whether they deemed pre-eminently good whether they die from age or in any other way shall die from age or in any other way shall die from age or in any other way shall be admitted to the same honours that is be admitted to the same honours that is be admitted to the same honours that is very right he said very right he said very right he said next how shall our soldiers treat their

next how shall our soldiers treat their next how shall our soldiers treat their enemies what about this in what respect enemies what about this in what respect enemies what about this in what respect do you mean well first of all in regard do you mean well first of all in regard do you mean well first of all in regard to slavery do you think it right that to slavery do you think it right that to slavery do you think it right that Hellenes should enslave Hellenic States Hellenes should enslave Hellenic States Hellenes should enslave Hellenic States or allow others to enslave them if they or allow others to enslave them if they or allow others to enslave them if they can help should not their custom be to can help should not their custom be to can help should not their custom be to spare them considering the danger which spare them considering the danger which spare them considering the danger which there is that the whole race may one day there is that the whole race may one day there is that the whole race may one day fall under the yoke of the barbarians to fall under the yoke of the barbarians to fall under the yoke of the barbarians to spare them is infinitely better then no spare them is infinitely better then no spare them is infinitely better then no Helene should be owned by them as a Helene should be owned by them as a Helene should be owned by them as a slave that is a rule which they will slave that is a rule which they will slave that is a rule which they will observe and advise the other Helene's to observe and advise the other Helene's to observe and advise the other Helene's to observe but certainly he said they will observe but certainly he said they will observe but certainly he said they will in this way be united against the in this way be united against the in this way be united against the barbarians and will keep their hands off barbarians and will keep their hands off barbarians and will keep their hands off one another next as to the slain thought one another next as to the slain thought one another next as to the slain thought the conquerors I said to take anything the conquerors I said to take anything the conquerors I said to take anything but their armor does not the practice of but their armor does not the practice of but their armor does not the practice of despoiling an enemy afford an excuse for despoiling an enemy afford an excuse for despoiling an enemy afford an excuse for not facing the battle cowards skulk not facing the battle cowards skulk not facing the battle cowards skulk about the field pretending that they are about the field pretending that they are about the field pretending that they are fulfilling a duty and many an army fulfilling a duty and many an army fulfilling a duty and many an army before now has been lost from this love before now has been lost from this love before now has been lost from this love of plunder very true and is there not a of plunder very true and is there not a of plunder very true and is there not a liberality in avarice in robbing a liberality in avarice in robbing a liberality in avarice in robbing a corpse and also a degree of meanness and corpse and also a degree of meanness and corpse and also a degree of meanness and womanish ness womanish ness womanish ness in making an enemy of the dead body when in making an enemy of the dead body when in making an enemy of the dead body when the real enemy has flown away and left the real enemy has flown away and left the real enemy has flown away and left only his fighting gear behind him it's only his fighting gear behind him it's only his fighting gear behind him it's not this rather like a dog who cannot not this rather like a dog who cannot not this rather like a dog who cannot get at his assailant quarreling with the get at his assailant quarreling with the get at his assailant quarreling with the stones which strike him instead very stones which strike him instead very stones which strike him instead very like a dog he said then we must abstain

like a dog he said then we must abstain like a dog he said then we must abstain from spawning the dead or hindering from spawning the dead or hindering from spawning the dead or hindering their burial yes and replied we must their burial yes and replied we must their burial yes and replied we must certainly must certainly must certainly must neither shall we offer up arms at the neither shall we offer up arms at the neither shall we offer up arms at the temples of the gods least of all the temples of the gods least of all the temples of the gods least of all the arms of hélène's if we care to maintain arms of hélène's if we care to maintain arms of hélène's if we care to maintain good feeling with other good feeling with other good feeling with other Helene's and indeed we have reason to Helene's and indeed we have reason to Helene's and indeed we have reason to fear that the offering of spoils taken fear that the offering of spoils taken fear that the offering of spoils taken from kinsmen may be a pollution unless from kinsmen may be a pollution unless from kinsmen may be a pollution unless commanded by the God himself very true commanded by the God himself very true commanded by the God himself very true again as to the devastation of Hellenic again as to the devastation of Hellenic again as to the devastation of Hellenic territory or the burning of houses what territory or the burning of houses what territory or the burning of houses what is to be the practice may I have the is to be the practice may I have the is to be the practice may I have the pleasure he said of hearing your opinion pleasure he said of hearing your opinion pleasure he said of hearing your opinion both shall be forbidden in my judgment I both shall be forbidden in my judgment I both shall be forbidden in my judgment I would take the annual produce and no would take the annual produce and no would take the annual produce and no more shall I tell you why or pray do why more shall I tell you why or pray do why more shall I tell you why or pray do why you see there is a difference in the you see there is a difference in the you see there is a difference in the names discord and war and I imagine that names discord and war and I imagine that names discord and war and I imagine that there is also a difference in their there is also a difference in their there is also a difference in their natures the one is expressive for what natures the one is expressive for what natures the one is expressive for what is internal and domestic the other of is internal and domestic the other of is internal and domestic the other of what is external and foreign and the what is external and foreign and the what is external and foreign and the first of the two is termed discord and first of the two is termed discord and first of the two is termed discord and only the second war that is a very only the second war that is a very only the second war that is a very proper distinction he replied and may I proper distinction he replied and may I proper distinction he replied and may I not observe with equal propriety that not observe with equal propriety that not observe with equal propriety that the Hellenic race is all united together the Hellenic race is all united together the Hellenic race is all united together by ties of blood and friendship and by ties of blood and friendship and by ties of blood and friendship and alien and strange to the barbarians very alien and strange to the barbarians very alien and strange to the barbarians very good he said and therefore when her good he said and therefore when her good he said and therefore when her liens fight with barbarians and

liens fight with barbarians and liens fight with barbarians and barbarians with her liens they will be barbarians with her liens they will be barbarians with her liens they will be described by us as being at war when described by us as being at war when described by us as being at war when they fight and by nature enemies and they fight and by nature enemies and they fight and by nature enemies and this kind of antagonism should be called this kind of antagonism should be called this kind of antagonism should be called war but when her liens fight with one war but when her liens fight with one war but when her liens fight with one another another another we shall say that helis is then in a we shall say that helis is then in a we shall say that helis is then in a state of disorder and discord they being state of disorder and discord they being state of disorder and discord they being by nature friends and such enmity is to by nature friends and such enmity is to by nature friends and such enmity is to be called discord I agree consider then be called discord I agree consider then be called discord I agree consider then I said when that which we have I said when that which we have I said when that which we have acknowledged to be discord occurs and a acknowledged to be discord occurs and a acknowledged to be discord occurs and a city is divided if both parties destroy city is divided if both parties destroy city is divided if both parties destroy the lands and burn the houses of one the lands and burn the houses of one the lands and burn the houses of one another how wicked does the strife another how wicked does the strife another how wicked does the strife appear no true level of his country appear no true level of his country appear no true level of his country would bring himself to tear in pieces would bring himself to tear in pieces would bring himself to tear in pieces his own nurse and mother there might be his own nurse and mother there might be his own nurse and mother there might be reason in the Conqueror depriving the reason in the Conqueror depriving the reason in the Conqueror depriving the concrete of their harvest but concrete of their harvest but concrete of their harvest but still they would have the idea of peace still they would have the idea of peace still they would have the idea of peace in their hearts and would not mean to go in their hearts and would not mean to go in their hearts and would not mean to go on fighting forever yes he said that is on fighting forever yes he said that is on fighting forever yes he said that is a better temper than the other and will a better temper than the other and will a better temper than the other and will not the city which you are founding be a not the city which you are founding be a not the city which you are founding be a Hellenic city it ought to be he replied Hellenic city it ought to be he replied Hellenic city it ought to be he replied then will not the citizens be good and then will not the citizens be good and then will not the citizens be good and civilized yes very civilized and will civilized yes very civilized and will civilized yes very civilized and will they not be lovers of Hellas and think they not be lovers of Hellas and think they not be lovers of Hellas and think of Hellas as their own land and share in of Hellas as their own land and share in of Hellas as their own land and share in the comment M 'pls most certainly not the comment M 'pls most certainly not the comment M 'pls most certainly not any difference which arises among them any difference which arises among them any difference which arises among them will be regarded by them as discord only will be regarded by them as discord only will be regarded by them as discord only a quarrel among friends which is not to a quarrel among friends which is not to a quarrel among friends which is not to be called a war certainly not then they

be called a war certainly not then they be called a war certainly not then they will call as those who intend someday to will call as those who intend someday to will call as those who intend someday to be reconciled certainly they will use be reconciled certainly they will use be reconciled certainly they will use friendly correction but will not enslave friendly correction but will not enslave friendly correction but will not enslave or destroy their opponents they will be or destroy their opponents they will be or destroy their opponents they will be correct as not enemies just so and as correct as not enemies just so and as correct as not enemies just so and as they are hélène's themselves they will they are hélène's themselves they will they are hélène's themselves they will not devastate hell us nor will they burn not devastate hell us nor will they burn not devastate hell us nor will they burn houses nor ever suppose that the whole houses nor ever suppose that the whole houses nor ever suppose that the whole population of city men women and population of city men women and population of city men women and children are equally their enemies for children are equally their enemies for children are equally their enemies for they know that the guilt of war is they know that the guilt of war is they know that the guilt of war is always confined to a few persons and always confined to a few persons and always confined to a few persons and that the many are their friends and for that the many are their friends and for that the many are their friends and for all these reasons they will be unwilling all these reasons they will be unwilling all these reasons they will be unwilling to waste their lands and raise their to waste their lands and raise their to waste their lands and raise their houses their enmity to them will only houses their enmity to them will only houses their enmity to them will only last until the many innocent sufferers last until the many innocent sufferers last until the many innocent sufferers have compelled the guilty field to give have compelled the guilty field to give have compelled the guilty field to give satisfaction I agree he said that our satisfaction I agree he said that our satisfaction I agree he said that our citizens should thus deal with their citizens should thus deal with their citizens should thus deal with their hellenic enemies and with barbarians as hellenic enemies and with barbarians as hellenic enemies and with barbarians as the aleene's now deal with one another the aleene's now deal with one another the aleene's now deal with one another then let us enact this law also for our then let us enact this law also for our then let us enact this law also for our Guardians that they are neither to Guardians that they are neither to Guardians that they are neither to devastate the lands of her liens nor to devastate the lands of her liens nor to devastate the lands of her liens nor to burn their houses agreed and we may burn their houses agreed and we may burn their houses agreed and we may agree also in thinking that these like agree also in thinking that these like agree also in thinking that these like all our previous enactments are very all our previous enactments are very all our previous enactments are very good good book 5 part 3 of the Republic by Plato book 5 part 3 of the Republic by Plato this LibriVox recording is in the public

this LibriVox recording is in the public this LibriVox recording is in the public domain read by Bob Neufeld domain read by Bob Neufeld domain read by Bob Neufeld but still I must say Socrates that if but still I must say Socrates that if but still I must say Socrates that if you are allowed to go on in this way you you are allowed to go on in this way you you are allowed to go on in this way you will entirely forget the other question will entirely forget the other question will entirely forget the other question which are the commencement of this which are the commencement of this which are the commencement of this discussion you thrust aside it is such discussion you thrust aside it is such discussion you thrust aside it is such an order of things possible and how if an order of things possible and how if an order of things possible and how if at all for I am quite ready to at all for I am quite ready to at all for I am quite ready to acknowledge that the plan which you acknowledge that the plan which you acknowledge that the plan which you proposed if only feasible would do all proposed if only feasible would do all proposed if only feasible would do all sorts of good to the state I will add sorts of good to the state I will add sorts of good to the state I will add what you have omitted that your citizens what you have omitted that your citizens what you have omitted that your citizens will be the bravest of warriors and will will be the bravest of warriors and will will be the bravest of warriors and will never leave their ranks for they will never leave their ranks for they will never leave their ranks for they will all know one another and each will call all know one another and each will call all know one another and each will call the other father brother son and if you the other father brother son and if you the other father brother son and if you suppose the women to join their armies suppose the women to join their armies suppose the women to join their armies whether in the same rank or in the rear whether in the same rank or in the rear whether in the same rank or in the rear either as a terror to the enemy or as either as a terror to the enemy or as either as a terror to the enemy or as auxiliaries in case of need I know that auxiliaries in case of need I know that auxiliaries in case of need I know that they will then be absolutely invincible they will then be absolutely invincible they will then be absolutely invincible when there are many domestic advantages when there are many domestic advantages when there are many domestic advantages which might also be mentioned and which which might also be mentioned and which which might also be mentioned and which I also fully acknowledge but as I admit I also fully acknowledge but as I admit I also fully acknowledge but as I admit all these advantages and as many more as all these advantages and as many more as all these advantages and as many more as you please if only this state of yours you please if only this state of yours you please if only this state of yours were to come into existence were to come into existence were to come into existence we need say no more about them assuming we need say no more about them assuming we need say no more about them assuming then the existence of the state let us then the existence of the state let us then the existence of the state let us now turn to the question of possibility now turn to the question of possibility now turn to the question of possibility and ways and means the rest may be left and ways and means the rest may be left and ways and means the rest may be left if I lighter for a moment you instantly if I lighter for a moment you instantly if I lighter for a moment you instantly make a raid upon me I said and have no make a raid upon me I said and have no make a raid upon me I said and have no mercy I have hardly escaped the first

mercy I have hardly escaped the first mercy I have hardly escaped the first and second waves and you seem not to be and second waves and you seem not to be and second waves and you seem not to be aware that you are now bringing upon me aware that you are now bringing upon me aware that you are now bringing upon me the third which is the greatest and the third which is the greatest and the third which is the greatest and heaviest when you have seen and heard heaviest when you have seen and heard heaviest when you have seen and heard the third wave I think you will be more the third wave I think you will be more the third wave I think you will be more considerate and will acknowledge that considerate and will acknowledge that considerate and will acknowledge that some fear and hesitation was natural some fear and hesitation was natural some fear and hesitation was natural respecting a proposal so extraordinary respecting a proposal so extraordinary respecting a proposal so extraordinary as at which I have now to state and as at which I have now to state and as at which I have now to state and investigate investigate investigate the more appeals of this sort which you the more appeals of this sort which you the more appeals of this sort which you make he said the more determined are we make he said the more determined are we make he said the more determined are we that you shall tell us how such a state that you shall tell us how such a state that you shall tell us how such a state as possible speak art and at once let me as possible speak art and at once let me as possible speak art and at once let me begin by reminding you that we found our begin by reminding you that we found our begin by reminding you that we found our way hither in the search after justice way hither in the search after justice way hither in the search after justice and injustice true he replied but what and injustice true he replied but what and injustice true he replied but what of that I was only going to ask whether of that I was only going to ask whether of that I was only going to ask whether if we have discovered them we are to if we have discovered them we are to if we have discovered them we are to require that the just man should in require that the just man should in require that the just man should in nothing fail of absolute justice or may nothing fail of absolute justice or may nothing fail of absolute justice or may we be satisfied with an approximation we be satisfied with an approximation we be satisfied with an approximation and the attainment in him of a higher and the attainment in him of a higher and the attainment in him of a higher degree of justice than is to be found in degree of justice than is to be found in degree of justice than is to be found in other men the approximation will be other men the approximation will be other men the approximation will be enough we are enquiring into the nature enough we are enquiring into the nature enough we are enquiring into the nature of absolute justice and into the of absolute justice and into the of absolute justice and into the character of the perfectly just and to character of the perfectly just and to character of the perfectly just and to injustice and the perfectly unjust that injustice and the perfectly unjust that injustice and the perfectly unjust that we might have an ideal we were to look we might have an ideal we were to look we might have an ideal we were to look at these in order that we might judge of at these in order that we might judge of at these in order that we might judge of our own happiness and unhappiness our own happiness and unhappiness our own happiness and unhappiness according to the standard which they according to the standard which they according to the standard which they have exhibited and the degree in which have exhibited and the degree in which have exhibited and the degree in which we resembled them but not with any view we resembled them but not with any view we resembled them but not with any view of showing that they could exist in fact

of showing that they could exist in fact of showing that they could exist in fact true he said wouldn't a painter be any true he said wouldn't a painter be any true he said wouldn't a painter be any the worst because after having the worst because after having the worst because after having delineated with consummate art an ideal delineated with consummate art an ideal delineated with consummate art an ideal of a perfectly beautiful man he was of a perfectly beautiful man he was of a perfectly beautiful man he was unable to show that any such man could unable to show that any such man could unable to show that any such man could ever have existed he would be none the ever have existed he would be none the ever have existed he would be none the worse well and were we not creating an worse well and were we not creating an worse well and were we not creating an ideal of a perfect state to be sure and ideal of a perfect state to be sure and ideal of a perfect state to be sure and is our theory a worse theory because we is our theory a worse theory because we is our theory a worse theory because we are unable to prove the possibility of a are unable to prove the possibility of a are unable to prove the possibility of a city being ordered in the manner city being ordered in the manner city being ordered in the manner described surely not they replied that described surely not they replied that described surely not they replied that is the truth I said but if at your is the truth I said but if at your is the truth I said but if at your request I am to try and show how and request I am to try and show how and request I am to try and show how and under what conditions the possibility is under what conditions the possibility is under what conditions the possibility is highest I must ask you having this in highest I must ask you having this in highest I must ask you having this in view to repeat your former admissions view to repeat your former admissions view to repeat your former admissions what admissions I want to know whether what admissions I want to know whether what admissions I want to know whether ideals are ever fully realized in ideals are ever fully realized in ideals are ever fully realized in language does not the word express more language does not the word express more language does not the word express more than the fact and must not be actual than the fact and must not be actual than the fact and must not be actual whatever a man may think always in the whatever a man may think always in the whatever a man may think always in the nature of nature of nature of things fall short of the truth what do things fall short of the truth what do things fall short of the truth what do you say I agree you say I agree you say I agree then you must not insist on my proving then you must not insist on my proving then you must not insist on my proving that the actual state will in every that the actual state will in every that the actual state will in every respect coincide with the ideal if we respect coincide with the ideal if we respect coincide with the ideal if we are only able to discover how a city may are only able to discover how a city may are only able to discover how a city may be governed nearly as we proposed you be governed nearly as we proposed you be governed nearly as we proposed you will admit that we have discovered the will admit that we have discovered the will admit that we have discovered the possibility which you demand and will be possibility which you demand and will be possibility which you demand and will be contented I am sure that I should be

contented I am sure that I should be contented I am sure that I should be contented will not you yes I will let me contented will not you yes I will let me contented will not you yes I will let me next endeavor to show what is that Fault next endeavor to show what is that Fault next endeavor to show what is that Fault in states which is the cause of their in states which is the cause of their in states which is the cause of their present maladministration present maladministration present maladministration and what is the least change which will and what is the least change which will and what is the least change which will enable a state to pass into the to enable a state to pass into the to enable a state to pass into the to reform and let the change if possible be reform and let the change if possible be reform and let the change if possible be of one thing only or if not of two at of one thing only or if not of two at of one thing only or if not of two at any rate that the changes be as few and any rate that the changes be as few and any rate that the changes be as few and slight as possible certainly he replied slight as possible certainly he replied slight as possible certainly he replied I think I said that there might be a I think I said that there might be a I think I said that there might be a reform of the state if only one change reform of the state if only one change reform of the state if only one change were made which is not a slight or easy were made which is not a slight or easy were made which is not a slight or easy though still a possible one though still a possible one though still a possible one oh what is it he said now then I said I oh what is it he said now then I said I oh what is it he said now then I said I go to meet that which I liken to the go to meet that which I liken to the go to meet that which I liken to the greatest of the waves yet shall the word greatest of the waves yet shall the word greatest of the waves yet shall the word be spoken even though the wave break be spoken even though the wave break be spoken even though the wave break drowned me and laughter and dishonor and drowned me and laughter and dishonor and drowned me and laughter and dishonor and do you mark my words proceed I said do you mark my words proceed I said do you mark my words proceed I said until philosophers are kings or the until philosophers are kings or the until philosophers are kings or the kings and princes of this world have the kings and princes of this world have the kings and princes of this world have the spirit and power of philosophy and spirit and power of philosophy and spirit and power of philosophy and political greatness and wisdom meet in political greatness and wisdom meet in political greatness and wisdom meet in one and these commoner natures who one and these commoner natures who one and these commoner natures who pursue either to the exclusion of the pursue either to the exclusion of the pursue either to the exclusion of the other are compelled to stand aside other are compelled to stand aside other are compelled to stand aside cities will never have rest from their cities will never have rest from their cities will never have rest from their evils nor the human race as I believed evils nor the human race as I believed evils nor the human race as I believed and then only will this our state have a and then only will this our state have a and then only will this our state have a possibility of life and behold the light possibility of life and behold the light possibility of life and behold the light of day such was the thought my dear of day such was the thought my dear of day such was the thought my dear Glaucon which I would fain have uttered

Glaucon which I would fain have uttered Glaucon which I would fain have uttered if it had not seemed too extravagant for if it had not seemed too extravagant for if it had not seemed too extravagant for to be convinced that in no other state to be convinced that in no other state to be convinced that in no other state can there be happiness private or public can there be happiness private or public can there be happiness private or public is indeed a hard thing is indeed a hard thing is indeed a hard thing Socrates what do you mean I would have Socrates what do you mean I would have Socrates what do you mean I would have you consider that the word which you you consider that the word which you you consider that the word which you have uttered is one at which numerous have uttered is one at which numerous have uttered is one at which numerous persons and very respectable persons - persons and very respectable persons - persons and very respectable persons - in a figure pulling off their coats all in a figure pulling off their coats all in a figure pulling off their coats all in the moment and seizing any weapon in the moment and seizing any weapon in the moment and seizing any weapon that comes to hand will run at you might that comes to hand will run at you might that comes to hand will run at you might and main before you know where you are and main before you know where you are and main before you know where you are intending to do heaven knows what and if intending to do heaven knows what and if intending to do heaven knows what and if you don't prepare an answer and put you don't prepare an answer and put you don't prepare an answer and put yourself in motion you will be paired by yourself in motion you will be paired by yourself in motion you will be paired by their fine wits that no mistake you got their fine wits that no mistake you got their fine wits that no mistake you got me into the scrape I said and I was me into the scrape I said and I was me into the scrape I said and I was quite right however I will do all I can quite right however I will do all I can quite right however I will do all I can to get you out of it but I can only give to get you out of it but I can only give to get you out of it but I can only give you good will and good advice and you good will and good advice and you good will and good advice and perhaps I may be able to fit answers to perhaps I may be able to fit answers to perhaps I may be able to fit answers to your questions better than another that your questions better than another that your questions better than another that is all and now having such an auxiliary is all and now having such an auxiliary is all and now having such an auxiliary you must do your best to show the you must do your best to show the you must do your best to show the unbelievers that you are right I ought unbelievers that you are right I ought unbelievers that you are right I ought to try I said since you offer me such to try I said since you offer me such to try I said since you offer me such invaluable assistance and I think that invaluable assistance and I think that invaluable assistance and I think that if there is to be a chance of our if there is to be a chance of our if there is to be a chance of our escaping we must explain to them whom we escaping we must explain to them whom we escaping we must explain to them whom we mean when we say that philosophers are mean when we say that philosophers are mean when we say that philosophers are to rule in the state then we shall be to rule in the state then we shall be to rule in the state then we shall be able to defend ourselves there will be able to defend ourselves there will be able to defend ourselves there will be discovered to be some nature's who want discovered to be some nature's who want discovered to be some nature's who want to study philosophy and to be leaders in to study philosophy and to be leaders in to study philosophy and to be leaders in the state and others who are not born to

the state and others who are not born to the state and others who are not born to be philosophers and are meant to be be philosophers and are meant to be be philosophers and are meant to be followers rather than leaders then now followers rather than leaders then now followers rather than leaders then now for a definition he said follow me I for a definition he said follow me I for a definition he said follow me I said and I hope that I may in some way said and I hope that I may in some way said and I hope that I may in some way or other be able to give you a or other be able to give you a or other be able to give you a satisfactory explanation proceed I dare satisfactory explanation proceed I dare satisfactory explanation proceed I dare say that you remember and therefore I say that you remember and therefore I say that you remember and therefore I need not remind you that a lover if he need not remind you that a lover if he need not remind you that a lover if he is worthy of the name are to show his is worthy of the name are to show his is worthy of the name are to show his love but not to some one part of that love but not to some one part of that love but not to some one part of that which he loves but to the whole I really which he loves but to the whole I really which he loves but to the whole I really do not understand and therefore beg of do not understand and therefore beg of do not understand and therefore beg of you to assist my memory another person I you to assist my memory another person I you to assist my memory another person I said might fairly reply as you do but a said might fairly reply as you do but a said might fairly reply as you do but a man of pleasure like yourself ought to man of pleasure like yourself ought to man of pleasure like yourself ought to know that all who are in the flower of know that all who are in the flower of know that all who are in the flower of youth do somehow or other raise up youth do somehow or other raise up youth do somehow or other raise up paying or emotion in another's breast paying or emotion in another's breast paying or emotion in another's breast and are thought by him to be and are thought by him to be and are thought by him to be of his affectionate regards it's not of his affectionate regards it's not of his affectionate regards it's not this away which you have with the fair this away which you have with the fair this away which you have with the fair one has a snub nose and you praise his one has a snub nose and you praise his one has a snub nose and you praise his charming face the hook nose of another charming face the hook nose of another charming face the hook nose of another as you say a royal look while he who is as you say a royal look while he who is as you say a royal look while he who is neither snub nor hooked has the grace of neither snub nor hooked has the grace of neither snub nor hooked has the grace of regularity the dark village is manly the regularity the dark village is manly the regularity the dark village is manly the fair are children of the gods and as to fair are children of the gods and as to fair are children of the gods and as to the sweet honey pale as they are called the sweet honey pale as they are called the sweet honey pale as they are called what is the very name but the invention what is the very name but the invention what is the very name but the invention of a lover who talks in diminutives and of a lover who talks in diminutives and of a lover who talks in diminutives and is not averse to paleness if appearing is not averse to paleness if appearing is not averse to paleness if appearing on the cheek of youth in a word there is

on the cheek of youth in a word there is on the cheek of youth in a word there is no excuse which you will not make and no excuse which you will not make and no excuse which you will not make and nothing which you will not say in order nothing which you will not say in order nothing which you will not say in order not to lose a single flower that blooms not to lose a single flower that blooms not to lose a single flower that blooms in the springtime of youth if you make in the springtime of youth if you make in the springtime of youth if you make me an authority in matters of love for me an authority in matters of love for me an authority in matters of love for the sake of the arguments I assent and the sake of the arguments I assent and the sake of the arguments I assent and what do you say of lovers of wine do you what do you say of lovers of wine do you what do you say of lovers of wine do you not see them doing the same they are not see them doing the same they are not see them doing the same they are glad of any pretext of drinking any wine glad of any pretext of drinking any wine glad of any pretext of drinking any wine very good and the same is true of very good and the same is true of very good and the same is true of ambitious men if they cannot command an ambitious men if they cannot command an ambitious men if they cannot command an army they are willing to command a file army they are willing to command a file army they are willing to command a file and if they cannot be honored by really and if they cannot be honored by really and if they cannot be honored by really great and important persons they are great and important persons they are great and important persons they are glad to be honored by lesser and meaner glad to be honored by lesser and meaner glad to be honored by lesser and meaner people but honor of some kind they must people but honor of some kind they must people but honor of some kind they must have exactly once more let me ask does have exactly once more let me ask does have exactly once more let me ask does he who desires any class of goods desire he who desires any class of goods desire he who desires any class of goods desire the whole class or a part only the whole the whole class or a part only the whole the whole class or a part only the whole and may we not say of the philosopher and may we not say of the philosopher and may we not say of the philosopher that he is a lover not of a part of that he is a lover not of a part of that he is a lover not of a part of wisdom only but of the whole yes of the wisdom only but of the whole yes of the wisdom only but of the whole yes of the whole and he who dislikes learning whole and he who dislikes learning whole and he who dislikes learning especially in youth when he has no power especially in youth when he has no power especially in youth when he has no power of judging what is good and what is not of judging what is good and what is not of judging what is good and what is not such an one we maintain not to be a such an one we maintain not to be a such an one we maintain not to be a philosopher or a lover of knowledge just philosopher or a lover of knowledge just philosopher or a lover of knowledge just as he who refuses his food is not hungry as he who refuses his food is not hungry as he who refuses his food is not hungry and may be said to have a bad appetite and may be said to have a bad appetite and may be said to have a bad appetite and not a good one very true he said and not a good one very true he said and not a good one very true he said whereas he who has a taste for every whereas he who has a taste for every whereas he who has a taste for every sort of knowledge and who is curious to sort of knowledge and who is curious to sort of knowledge and who is curious to learn and is never satisfied may be

learn and is never satisfied may be learn and is never satisfied may be justly turned a philosopher am I not justly turned a philosopher am I not justly turned a philosopher am I not right right right Glaucon said if curiosity makes a Glaucon said if curiosity makes a Glaucon said if curiosity makes a philosopher he will find many a strange philosopher he will find many a strange philosopher he will find many a strange being will have a title to the name all being will have a title to the name all being will have a title to the name all the lovers of sites have a delight and the lovers of sites have a delight and the lovers of sites have a delight and learning and must therefore be included learning and must therefore be included learning and must therefore be included musical amateurs too are a folk musical amateurs too are a folk musical amateurs too are a folk strangely out of place among strangely out of place among strangely out of place among philosophers for they are the last philosophers for they are the last philosophers for they are the last persons in the world who would come to persons in the world who would come to persons in the world who would come to anything like a philosophical discussion anything like a philosophical discussion anything like a philosophical discussion if they could help while they run about if they could help while they run about if they could help while they run about it that Dionysiac festivals as if they it that Dionysiac festivals as if they it that Dionysiac festivals as if they had let out their ears to hear every had let out their ears to hear every had let out their ears to hear every chorus whether the performance is in chorus whether the performance is in chorus whether the performance is in town or country that makes no difference town or country that makes no difference town or country that makes no difference they are there now are we to maintain they are there now are we to maintain they are there now are we to maintain that all these and any who have similar that all these and any who have similar that all these and any who have similar tastes as well as the professors of tastes as well as the professors of tastes as well as the professors of quite minor arts or philosophers well quite minor arts or philosophers well quite minor arts or philosophers well certainly not certainly not certainly not I replied they are only an imitation I replied they are only an imitation I replied they are only an imitation they said who then are the true they said who then are the true they said who then are the true philosophers those I said who are lovers philosophers those I said who are lovers philosophers those I said who are lovers of the vision of truth that is also good of the vision of truth that is also good of the vision of truth that is also good he said but I should like to know what he said but I should like to know what he said but I should like to know what do you mean to another I replied I might do you mean to another I replied I might do you mean to another I replied I might have a difficulty in explaining but I am have a difficulty in explaining but I am have a difficulty in explaining but I am sure that you will admit a proposition sure that you will admit a proposition sure that you will admit a proposition which I am about to make what is the which I am about to make what is the which I am about to make what is the proposition that sense beauty is the proposition that sense beauty is the proposition that sense beauty is the opposite of ugliness they are too well opposite of ugliness they are too well opposite of ugliness they are too well certainly and in as much as they are too certainly and in as much as they are too certainly and in as much as they are too each of them is one true again and of

each of them is one true again and of each of them is one true again and of just and unjust good and evil and every just and unjust good and evil and every just and unjust good and evil and every other class the same remark holds taken other class the same remark holds taken other class the same remark holds taken singly each of them is one but from the singly each of them is one but from the singly each of them is one but from the various combinations of them with various combinations of them with various combinations of them with actions and things and with one another actions and things and with one another actions and things and with one another they are seen in all sorts of lights and they are seen in all sorts of lights and they are seen in all sorts of lights and appear many very true and this is the appear many very true and this is the appear many very true and this is the distinction which I draw between the distinction which I draw between the distinction which I draw between the sight loving art loving practical class sight loving art loving practical class sight loving art loving practical class and those of whom I am speaking and who and those of whom I am speaking and who and those of whom I am speaking and who are alone worthy of the name of are alone worthy of the name of are alone worthy of the name of philosophers how do you distinguish them philosophers how do you distinguish them philosophers how do you distinguish them he said the lovers of sounds and sights he said the lovers of sounds and sights he said the lovers of sounds and sights are replied or as I conceive fond of are replied or as I conceive fond of are replied or as I conceive fond of fine tones and colors and forms and all fine tones and colors and forms and all fine tones and colors and forms and all the artificial products that are made the artificial products that are made the artificial products that are made but their mind is incapable of seeing or but their mind is incapable of seeing or but their mind is incapable of seeing or loving absolute beauty true he replied loving absolute beauty true he replied loving absolute beauty true he replied few are they who are able to attain the few are they who are able to attain the few are they who are able to attain the side of this very true and he who having side of this very true and he who having side of this very true and he who having a sense of beautiful things has no sense a sense of beautiful things has no sense a sense of beautiful things has no sense of absolute beauty or who if another of absolute beauty or who if another of absolute beauty or who if another lead him to a knowledge of that beauty lead him to a knowledge of that beauty lead him to a knowledge of that beauty is unable to follow of such a one I ask is unable to follow of such a one I ask is unable to follow of such a one I ask is he awake or in a dream only reflect is he awake or in a dream only reflect is he awake or in a dream only reflect is not the dreamer sleeping or waking is not the dreamer sleeping or waking is not the dreamer sleeping or waking one who likens dissimilar things who one who likens dissimilar things who one who likens dissimilar things who puts the copy in the place of the real puts the copy in the place of the real puts the copy in the place of the real object I should certainly say that such object I should certainly say that such object I should certainly say that such and one was dreaming but take the case and one was dreaming but take the case and one was dreaming but take the case of the other who recognizes the of the other who recognizes the of the other who recognizes the existence of absolute beauty and is able

existence of absolute beauty and is able existence of absolute beauty and is able to distinguish the idea from the objects to distinguish the idea from the objects to distinguish the idea from the objects which participate in the idea neither which participate in the idea neither which participate in the idea neither putting the subjects in the place of the putting the subjects in the place of the putting the subjects in the place of the idea nor the idea in the place of the idea nor the idea in the place of the idea nor the idea in the place of the objects is he a dreamer or is he awake objects is he a dreamer or is he awake objects is he a dreamer or is he awake he is wide-awake and may we not say that he is wide-awake and may we not say that he is wide-awake and may we not say that the mind of the one who knows as the mind of the one who knows as the mind of the one who knows as knowledge and that the mind of the other knowledge and that the mind of the other knowledge and that the mind of the other hua Pines only has opinion certainly but hua Pines only has opinion certainly but hua Pines only has opinion certainly but suppose that the latter should quarrel suppose that the latter should quarrel suppose that the latter should quarrel with us and dispute our statement can we with us and dispute our statement can we with us and dispute our statement can we administer any soothing cordial or administer any soothing cordial or administer any soothing cordial or advice to him without revealing to him advice to him without revealing to him advice to him without revealing to him that there is sad disorder in his wits that there is sad disorder in his wits that there is sad disorder in his wits we must certainly offer him some good we must certainly offer him some good we must certainly offer him some good advice he replied come then and let us advice he replied come then and let us advice he replied come then and let us think of something to say to him think of something to say to him think of something to say to him shall we begin by assuring him that he shall we begin by assuring him that he shall we begin by assuring him that he is welcome to any knowledge which he may is welcome to any knowledge which he may is welcome to any knowledge which he may have and that we are rejoiced at his have and that we are rejoiced at his have and that we are rejoiced at his having it but we should like to ask him having it but we should like to ask him having it but we should like to ask him a question does he who has knowledge a question does he who has knowledge a question does he who has knowledge know something or nothing you must know something or nothing you must know something or nothing you must answer for him I answer that he knows answer for him I answer that he knows answer for him I answer that he knows something something that is or is not something something that is or is not something something that is or is not something that is for how can that which something that is for how can that which something that is for how can that which is not ever be known and are we assured is not ever be known and are we assured is not ever be known and are we assured after looking at the matter for many after looking at the matter for many after looking at the matter for many points of view that absolute being is or points of view that absolute being is or points of view that absolute being is or may be absolutely known but that the may be absolutely known but that the may be absolutely known but that the utterly non-existent is utterly unknown utterly non-existent is utterly unknown utterly non-existent is utterly unknown nothing can be more certain good but if nothing can be more certain good but if nothing can be more certain good but if there be anything which is of such a

there be anything which is of such a there be anything which is of such a nature as to be at not to be that will nature as to be at not to be that will nature as to be at not to be that will ever place intermediate between pure ever place intermediate between pure ever place intermediate between pure being and the absolute negation of being being and the absolute negation of being being and the absolute negation of being yes between them and as knowledge yes between them and as knowledge yes between them and as knowledge correspondent to being and ignorant of correspondent to being and ignorant of correspondent to being and ignorant of necessity to not being for that necessity to not being for that necessity to not being for that intermediate between being and not being intermediate between being and not being intermediate between being and not being there has to be discovered a there has to be discovered a there has to be discovered a corresponding intermediate between corresponding intermediate between corresponding intermediate between ignorance and knowledge if there be such ignorance and knowledge if there be such ignorance and knowledge if there be such or certainly do we admit the existence or certainly do we admit the existence or certainly do we admit the existence of opinion undoubtedly as being same of opinion undoubtedly as being same of opinion undoubtedly as being same with knowledge or another faculty with knowledge or another faculty with knowledge or another faculty another faculty then opinion and another faculty then opinion and another faculty then opinion and knowledge have to do with different knowledge have to do with different knowledge have to do with different kinds of matter corresponding to this kinds of matter corresponding to this kinds of matter corresponding to this difference of faculties yes and difference of faculties yes and difference of faculties yes and knowledge is relative to being at nose knowledge is relative to being at nose knowledge is relative to being at nose being but before I proceed further I being but before I proceed further I being but before I proceed further I will make a division or division I will will make a division or division I will will make a division or division I will begin by placing faculties in a class by begin by placing faculties in a class by begin by placing faculties in a class by themselves there are powers in us and in themselves there are powers in us and in themselves there are powers in us and in all other things by which we do as we do all other things by which we do as we do all other things by which we do as we do sight and hearing for example I should sight and hearing for example I should sight and hearing for example I should call faculties have I clearly explained call faculties have I clearly explained call faculties have I clearly explained the class which I mean yes I quite the class which I mean yes I quite the class which I mean yes I quite understand then let me tell you my view understand then let me tell you my view understand then let me tell you my view about them I do not see them and about them I do not see them and about them I do not see them and therefore the distinctions of figure therefore the distinctions of figure therefore the distinctions of figure color and the light which enable me to color and the light which enable me to color and the light which enable me to discern the differences of some things discern the differences of some things discern the differences of some things do not apply to them and speaking of a do not apply to them and speaking of a do not apply to them and speaking of a faculty I think only of its sphere and

faculty I think only of its sphere and faculty I think only of its sphere and its result and that which has the same its result and that which has the same its result and that which has the same sphere in the same result I call the sphere in the same result I call the sphere in the same result I call the same faculty but that which has another same faculty but that which has another same faculty but that which has another sphere and another result I call sphere and another result I call sphere and another result I call different would that be your way of different would that be your way of different would that be your way of speaking yes and will you be so very speaking yes and will you be so very speaking yes and will you be so very good as to answer one more question good as to answer one more question good as to answer one more question would you say that knowledge is a would you say that knowledge is a would you say that knowledge is a faculty or in what class would you place faculty or in what class would you place faculty or in what class would you place it for certainly knowledge is a faculty it for certainly knowledge is a faculty it for certainly knowledge is a faculty and the mightiest of all faculties and the mightiest of all faculties and the mightiest of all faculties and his opinion also a faculty certainly and his opinion also a faculty certainly and his opinion also a faculty certainly he said for opinion is that with which he said for opinion is that with which he said for opinion is that with which we are able to form an opinion and yet we are able to form an opinion and yet we are able to form an opinion and yet you were acknowledging a little while you were acknowledging a little while you were acknowledging a little while ago that knowledge is not the same as ago that knowledge is not the same as ago that knowledge is not the same as opinion by yes he said how can any opinion by yes he said how can any opinion by yes he said how can any reasonable being ever identify that reasonable being ever identify that reasonable being ever identify that which is infallible with that which which is infallible with that which which is infallible with that which earns an excellent answer earns an excellent answer earns an excellent answer proving I said that we are quite proving I said that we are quite proving I said that we are quite conscious of a distinction between them conscious of a distinction between them conscious of a distinction between them yes the knowledge and opinion having yes the knowledge and opinion having yes the knowledge and opinion having distinct powers have also distinct distinct powers have also distinct distinct powers have also distinct spheres or subject matters that is spheres or subject matters that is spheres or subject matters that is certain being is the severe and subject certain being is the severe and subject certain being is the severe and subject matter of knowledge and knowledge is to matter of knowledge and knowledge is to matter of knowledge and knowledge is to know the nature of being yes and an know the nature of being yes and an know the nature of being yes and an opinion is to have an opinion yes opinion is to have an opinion yes opinion is to have an opinion yes then do we know what we opine or is the then do we know what we opine or is the then do we know what we opine or is the subject matter of opinion the same as subject matter of opinion the same as subject matter of opinion the same as the subject matter of knowledge nay a the subject matter of knowledge nay a the subject matter of knowledge nay a replied that has been already disproven replied that has been already disproven replied that has been already disproven if difference in faculty implies

if difference in faculty implies if difference in faculty implies difference in the severe or subject difference in the severe or subject difference in the severe or subject matter and if as we were saying opinion matter and if as we were saying opinion matter and if as we were saying opinion and knowledge are distinct faculties and knowledge are distinct faculties and knowledge are distinct faculties then the sphere of knowledge and of then the sphere of knowledge and of then the sphere of knowledge and of opinion cannot be the same then if being opinion cannot be the same then if being opinion cannot be the same then if being is the subject-matter of knowledge is the subject-matter of knowledge is the subject-matter of knowledge something else must be the subject something else must be the subject something else must be the subject matter of opinion matter of opinion matter of opinion yes something else well then is not yes something else well then is not yes something else well then is not being the subject matter of opinion or being the subject matter of opinion or being the subject matter of opinion or rather how can there be an opinion at rather how can there be an opinion at rather how can there be an opinion at all about not being reflect when a man all about not being reflect when a man all about not being reflect when a man has an opinion has he not an opinion has an opinion has he not an opinion has an opinion has he not an opinion about something about something about something can he have an opinion which is an can he have an opinion which is an can he have an opinion which is an opinion about nothing or impossible he opinion about nothing or impossible he opinion about nothing or impossible he who has an opinion as an opinion about who has an opinion as an opinion about who has an opinion as an opinion about some one thing yes and not being is not some one thing yes and not being is not some one thing yes and not being is not one thing but properly speaking nothing one thing but properly speaking nothing one thing but properly speaking nothing true of not being ignorance was assumed true of not being ignorance was assumed true of not being ignorance was assumed to be the necessary command of being to be the necessary command of being to be the necessary command of being knowledge true he said then opinion is knowledge true he said then opinion is knowledge true he said then opinion is not concerned either with being or with not concerned either with being or with not concerned either with being or with not being not with either and not being not with either and not being not with either and can therefore neither be ignorant or can therefore neither be ignorant or can therefore neither be ignorant or knowledge that seems to be true but is knowledge that seems to be true but is knowledge that seems to be true but is opinion to be sought without and beyond opinion to be sought without and beyond opinion to be sought without and beyond either of them in a greater clearness either of them in a greater clearness either of them in a greater clearness than knowledge or in a greater darkness than knowledge or in a greater darkness than knowledge or in a greater darkness than ignorance neither then I suppose than ignorance neither then I suppose than ignorance neither then I suppose that opinion appears to you to be darker that opinion appears to you to be darker that opinion appears to you to be darker than knowledge but lighter than than knowledge but lighter than than knowledge but lighter than ignorance both and in no small degree ignorance both and in no small degree ignorance both and in no small degree and also to be within and between them

and also to be within and between them and also to be within and between them yes then you would infer that opinion is yes then you would infer that opinion is yes then you would infer that opinion is intermediate no question but we're we're intermediate no question but we're we're intermediate no question but we're we're not saying before that if anything not saying before that if anything not saying before that if anything appeared to be of a sort which is and is appeared to be of a sort which is and is appeared to be of a sort which is and is not at the same time that sort of thing not at the same time that sort of thing not at the same time that sort of thing would appear also to lie in the interval would appear also to lie in the interval would appear also to lie in the interval between pure being and absolute not between pure being and absolute not between pure being and absolute not being and that the corresponding Faculty being and that the corresponding Faculty being and that the corresponding Faculty is neither knowledge nor ignorance but is neither knowledge nor ignorance but is neither knowledge nor ignorance but will be found in the interval between will be found in the interval between will be found in the interval between them true and in that interval there has them true and in that interval there has them true and in that interval there has now been discovered something which we now been discovered something which we now been discovered something which we call opinion there has then what remains call opinion there has then what remains call opinion there has then what remains to be discovered is the object which to be discovered is the object which to be discovered is the object which partakes equally of the nature of being partakes equally of the nature of being partakes equally of the nature of being and not-being and not-being and not-being and cannot rightly be termed either pure and cannot rightly be termed either pure and cannot rightly be termed either pure and simple this unknown term when and simple this unknown term when and simple this unknown term when discovered we may truly call the subject discovered we may truly call the subject discovered we may truly call the subject of opinion and assign each to their of opinion and assign each to their of opinion and assign each to their proper Faculty the extremes to the proper Faculty the extremes to the proper Faculty the extremes to the faculties of the extremes and the mean faculties of the extremes and the mean faculties of the extremes and the mean to the Faculty of the mean true this to the Faculty of the mean true this to the Faculty of the mean true this being promised I would ask the gentleman being promised I would ask the gentleman being promised I would ask the gentleman who is of the opinion that there is no who is of the opinion that there is no who is of the opinion that there is no absolute or unchangeable idea of beauty absolute or unchangeable idea of beauty absolute or unchangeable idea of beauty and whose opinion the beautiful is and whose opinion the beautiful is and whose opinion the beautiful is manifold he I say your novel of manifold he I say your novel of manifold he I say your novel of beautiful sights who cannot bear to be beautiful sights who cannot bear to be beautiful sights who cannot bear to be told that the beautiful is one and the told that the beautiful is one and the told that the beautiful is one and the just is one or that anything is one to just is one or that anything is one to just is one or that anything is one to him I would appeal saying will you be so him I would appeal saying will you be so him I would appeal saying will you be so very kind sir as to tell us whether of very kind sir as to tell us whether of very kind sir as to tell us whether of all these beautiful things there is one

all these beautiful things there is one all these beautiful things there is one which will not be found ugly or of the which will not be found ugly or of the which will not be found ugly or of the just which will not be found unjust or just which will not be found unjust or just which will not be found unjust or of the holy which will not also be of the holy which will not also be of the holy which will not also be unholy no he replied the beautiful will unholy no he replied the beautiful will unholy no he replied the beautiful will in some point of view in some point of view in some point of view found ugly and the same is true of the found ugly and the same is true of the found ugly and the same is true of the rest and may not the many which are rest and may not the many which are rest and may not the many which are doubles be also Habs doubles that is of doubles be also Habs doubles that is of doubles be also Habs doubles that is of one thing and halves of another oh quite one thing and halves of another oh quite one thing and halves of another oh quite true and things great and small heavy true and things great and small heavy true and things great and small heavy and lights as they are termed will not and lights as they are termed will not and lights as they are termed will not be denoted by these any more than by the be denoted by these any more than by the be denoted by these any more than by the opposite names true both these and the opposite names true both these and the opposite names true both these and the opposite names will always attach to all opposite names will always attach to all opposite names will always attach to all of them and can any one of these many of them and can any one of these many of them and can any one of these many things which are called by particular things which are called by particular things which are called by particular names be said to be this rather than not names be said to be this rather than not names be said to be this rather than not to be this he replied they are like the to be this he replied they are like the to be this he replied they are like the punning riddles which are asked at punning riddles which are asked at punning riddles which are asked at feasts or the children's puzzle about feasts or the children's puzzle about feasts or the children's puzzle about the eunuch aiming at the bat with what the eunuch aiming at the bat with what the eunuch aiming at the bat with what he hid him as they say in the puzzle and he hid him as they say in the puzzle and he hid him as they say in the puzzle and upon what the bat was sitting the upon what the bat was sitting the upon what the bat was sitting the individual objects of which I am individual objects of which I am individual objects of which I am speaking are also a riddle and have a speaking are also a riddle and have a speaking are also a riddle and have a double sense nor can you fix them in double sense nor can you fix them in double sense nor can you fix them in your mind either as being or not being your mind either as being or not being your mind either as being or not being or both aboard neither then what will or both aboard neither then what will or both aboard neither then what will you do with them I said can they have a you do with them I said can they have a you do with them I said can they have a better place than between being and better place than between being and better place than between being and not-being not-being not-being for they are clearly not in greater for they are clearly not in greater for they are clearly not in greater darkness or negation than not being and darkness or negation than not being and darkness or negation than not being and more full of light and existence than more full of light and existence than more full of light and existence than being that is quite true he said thus being that is quite true he said thus being that is quite true he said thus then we seem to have discovered that the

then we seem to have discovered that the then we seem to have discovered that the many ideas which the multitude entertain many ideas which the multitude entertain many ideas which the multitude entertain about the beautiful and about all other about the beautiful and about all other about the beautiful and about all other things are tossing about in some region things are tossing about in some region things are tossing about in some region which is halfway between pure being and which is halfway between pure being and which is halfway between pure being and pure not being we have yes and we had pure not being we have yes and we had pure not being we have yes and we had before agreed that anything of this kind before agreed that anything of this kind before agreed that anything of this kind which we might find was to be described which we might find was to be described which we might find was to be described as matter of opinion and not as matter as matter of opinion and not as matter as matter of opinion and not as matter of knowledge being the intermediate flux of knowledge being the intermediate flux of knowledge being the intermediate flux which is caught and detained by the which is caught and detained by the which is caught and detained by the intermediate faculty quite true than intermediate faculty quite true than intermediate faculty quite true than those who see the many beautiful and who those who see the many beautiful and who those who see the many beautiful and who yet neither see absolute beauty nor can yet neither see absolute beauty nor can yet neither see absolute beauty nor can follow any guide who points the way follow any guide who points the way follow any guide who points the way thither who see the many just and not thither who see the many just and not thither who see the many just and not absolute justice and the like absolute justice and the like absolute justice and the like such persons may be said to have opinion such persons may be said to have opinion such persons may be said to have opinion but not knowledge that is certain but but not knowledge that is certain but but not knowledge that is certain but those who see the absolute and eternal those who see the absolute and eternal those who see the absolute and eternal and immutable may be said to know and and immutable may be said to know and and immutable may be said to know and not to have a pin not to have a pin not to have a pin neither can that be denied the one love neither can that be denied the one love neither can that be denied the one love and embrace the subjects of knowledge and embrace the subjects of knowledge and embrace the subjects of knowledge the other those of opinion the latter the other those of opinion the latter the other those of opinion the latter are the same as I daresay you will are the same as I daresay you will are the same as I daresay you will remember who listened to sweet sounds remember who listened to sweet sounds remember who listened to sweet sounds and gazed upon fair colors but would not and gazed upon fair colors but would not and gazed upon fair colors but would not tolerate the existence of absolute tolerate the existence of absolute tolerate the existence of absolute beauty yes I remember beauty yes I remember beauty yes I remember shall we then be guilty of an shall we then be guilty of an shall we then be guilty of an impropriety in calling them lovers of impropriety in calling them lovers of impropriety in calling them lovers of opinion rather than lovers of wisdom and opinion rather than lovers of wisdom and opinion rather than lovers of wisdom and will they be very angry with us for thus will they be very angry with us for thus will they be very angry with us for thus describing them I shall tell them not to describing them I shall tell them not to describing them I shall tell them not to be angry no man should be angry at what

be angry no man should be angry at what be angry no man should be angry at what is true but those who love the truth in is true but those who love the truth in is true but those who love the truth in each thing are to be called lovers of each thing are to be called lovers of each thing are to be called lovers of wisdom and not lovers of opinion wisdom and not lovers of opinion wisdom and not lovers of opinion assuredly