Plato's Republic Book 2

Book two, part one of the Republic by Book two, part one of the Republic by Plato. Plato. Plato. This LibriVox recording is in the public This LibriVox recording is in the public This LibriVox recording is in the public domain, read by Bob Neufeld. domain, read by Bob Neufeld. domain, read by Bob Neufeld. With these words, I was thinking that I With these words, I was thinking that I With these words, I was thinking that I had made an end to the discussion. But had made an end to the discussion. But had made an end to the discussion. But the end, in truth, proved only to be a the end, in truth, proved only to be a the end, in truth, proved only to be a beginning. For Glaucon, who is always beginning. For Glaucon, who is always beginning. For Glaucon, who is always the most pugnacious of men, was the most pugnacious of men, was the most pugnacious of men, was dissatisfied at Thrasymachus's dissatisfied at Thrasymachus's dissatisfied at Thrasymachus's retirement. He wanted to have the battle retirement. He wanted to have the battle retirement. He wanted to have the battle out. So, he said to me, out. So, he said to me, out. So, he said to me, "Socrates, do you wish really to "Socrates, do you wish really to "Socrates, do you wish really to persuade us, or only to seem to have persuade us, or only to seem to have persuade us, or only to seem to have persuaded us, that to be just is always persuaded us, that to be just is always persuaded us, that to be just is always better than to be unjust?" better than to be unjust?" better than to be unjust?" "I should wish really to persuade you," "I should wish really to persuade you," "I should wish really to persuade you," I replied, "if I could." "Then you I replied, "if I could." "Then you I replied, "if I could." "Then you certainly have not succeeded. Let me ask certainly have not succeeded. Let me ask certainly have not succeeded. Let me ask you now, how would you arrange goods? you now, how would you arrange goods? you now, how would you arrange goods? Are there not some which we welcome for Are there not some which we welcome for Are there not some which we welcome for their own sakes, and independently of their own sakes, and independently of their own sakes, and independently of their consequences, as, for example, their consequences, as, for example, their consequences, as, for example, harmless pleasures and enjoyments which harmless pleasures and enjoyments which harmless pleasures and enjoyments which delight us at the time, although nothing delight us at the time, although nothing delight us at the time, although nothing follows from them?"

follows from them?" follows from them?" "I agree in thinking there is such a "I agree in thinking there is such a "I agree in thinking there is such a class," I replied. class," I replied. class," I replied. "Is there not also a second class of "Is there not also a second class of "Is there not also a second class of goods, such as knowledge, sight, or goods, such as knowledge, sight, or goods, such as knowledge, sight, or health, health, health, which are desirable not only in which are desirable not only in which are desirable not only in themselves, but also for their results?" themselves, but also for their results?" themselves, but also for their results?" "Certainly," I said. "Certainly," I said. "Certainly," I said. "And would you not recognize a third "And would you not recognize a third "And would you not recognize a third class, such as gymnastic, and the care class, such as gymnastic, and the care class, such as gymnastic, and the care of the sick, and the physician's art, of the sick, and the physician's art, of the sick, and the physician's art, also the various ways of money-making? also the various ways of money-making? also the various ways of money-making? These do us good, but we regard them as These do us good, but we regard them as These do us good, but we regard them as disagreeable, and no one would choose disagreeable, and no one would choose disagreeable, and no one would choose them for their own sakes, but only for them for their own sakes, but only for them for their own sakes, but only for the sake of some reward or result which the sake of some reward or result which the sake of some reward or result which flows from them." flows from them." flows from them." "There is," I said, "this third class "There is," I said, "this third class "There is," I said, "this third class also. also. also. But why do you ask?" But why do you ask?" But why do you ask?" "Because I want to know in which of the "Because I want to know in which of the "Because I want to know in which of the three classes you would place justice. three classes you would place justice. three classes you would place justice. In the highest class, I replied, among In the highest class, I replied, among In the highest class, I replied, among those goods which he who would be happy those goods which he who would be happy those goods which he who would be happy desires both for their own sake and for desires both for their own sake and for desires both for their own sake and for the sake of their results.

the sake of their results. the sake of their results. Then the many are of another mind. They Then the many are of another mind. They Then the many are of another mind. They think that justice is to be reckoned in think that justice is to be reckoned in think that justice is to be reckoned in the troublesome class, among goods which the troublesome class, among goods which the troublesome class, among goods which are to be pursued for the sake of are to be pursued for the sake of are to be pursued for the sake of rewards and of reputation, but in rewards and of reputation, but in rewards and of reputation, but in themselves are disagreeable and rather themselves are disagreeable and rather themselves are disagreeable and rather to be avoided. to be avoided. to be avoided. I know, I said, that this is their I know, I said, that this is their I know, I said, that this is their manner of thinking, and that this was manner of thinking, and that this was manner of thinking, and that this was the thesis which Thrasymachus was the thesis which Thrasymachus was the thesis which Thrasymachus was maintaining just now when he censured maintaining just now when he censured maintaining just now when he censured justice and praised injustice. justice and praised injustice. justice and praised injustice. But I am too stupid to be convinced by But I am too stupid to be convinced by But I am too stupid to be convinced by him. him. him. I wish, he said, that you should hear me I wish, he said, that you should hear me I wish, he said, that you should hear me as well as him, and then I shall see as well as him, and then I shall see as well as him, and then I shall see whether you and I agree. whether you and I agree. whether you and I agree. For Thrasymachus seems to me like a For Thrasymachus seems to me like a For Thrasymachus seems to me like a snake to have been charmed by your voice snake to have been charmed by your voice snake to have been charmed by your voice sooner than he ought to have been. sooner than he ought to have been. sooner than he ought to have been. But to my mind the nature of justice and But to my mind the nature of justice and But to my mind the nature of justice and injustice have not yet been made clear. injustice have not yet been made clear. injustice have not yet been made clear. Setting aside their rewards and results, Setting aside their rewards and results, Setting aside their rewards and results, I want to know what they are in I want to know what they are in I want to know what they are in themselves and how they inwardly work in themselves and how they inwardly work in themselves and how they inwardly work in the soul.

the soul. the soul. If you please, then I will revive the If you please, then I will revive the If you please, then I will revive the argument of Thrasymachus, and first I argument of Thrasymachus, and first I argument of Thrasymachus, and first I will speak of the nature and origin of will speak of the nature and origin of will speak of the nature and origin of justice according to the common view of justice according to the common view of justice according to the common view of them. them. them. Secondly, I will show that all men who Secondly, I will show that all men who Secondly, I will show that all men who practice justice do so against their practice justice do so against their practice justice do so against their will of necessity, but not as a good. will of necessity, but not as a good. will of necessity, but not as a good. And thirdly, I will argue that there is And thirdly, I will argue that there is And thirdly, I will argue that there is reason in this view, for the life of the reason in this view, for the life of the reason in this view, for the life of the unjust is after all better far than the unjust is after all better far than the unjust is after all better far than the life of the just, if what they say is life of the just, if what they say is life of the just, if what they say is true, Socrates, true, Socrates, true, Socrates, since I myself am not of their opinion. since I myself am not of their opinion. since I myself am not of their opinion. But still I acknowledge that I am But still I acknowledge that I am But still I acknowledge that I am perplexed when I hear the voices of perplexed when I hear the voices of perplexed when I hear the voices of Thrasymachus and myriad of others Thrasymachus and myriad of others Thrasymachus and myriad of others dinning in my ears. And on the other dinning in my ears. And on the other dinning in my ears. And on the other hand, I have never yet heard the hand, I have never yet heard the hand, I have never yet heard the superiority of justice to injustice superiority of justice to injustice superiority of justice to injustice maintained by anyone in a satisfactory maintained by anyone in a satisfactory maintained by anyone in a satisfactory way. way. way. I want to hear justice praised in I want to hear justice praised in I want to hear justice praised in respect of itself. Then I shall be respect of itself. Then I shall be respect of itself. Then I shall be satisfied. And you are the person from satisfied. And you are the person from satisfied. And you are the person from whom I think that I am most likely to whom I think that I am most likely to whom I think that I am most likely to hear this. And therefore, I will praise hear this. And therefore, I will praise hear this. And therefore, I will praise the unjust life to the utmost of my the unjust life to the utmost of my the unjust life to the utmost of my power. And my manner of speaking will power. And my manner of speaking will power. And my manner of speaking will indicate the manner in which I desire to indicate the manner in which I desire to indicate the manner in which I desire to hear you too praising justice and hear you too praising justice and hear you too praising justice and censuring injustice.

censuring injustice. censuring injustice. Will you say whether you approve of my Will you say whether you approve of my Will you say whether you approve of my proposal? proposal? proposal? Indeed, I do. Nor can I imagine any Indeed, I do. Nor can I imagine any Indeed, I do. Nor can I imagine any theme about which a man of sense would theme about which a man of sense would theme about which a man of sense would offener wish to converse. offener wish to converse. offener wish to converse. I am delighted, he replied, to hear you I am delighted, he replied, to hear you I am delighted, he replied, to hear you say so. And shall begin by speaking as I say so. And shall begin by speaking as I say so. And shall begin by speaking as I proposed of the nature and origin of proposed of the nature and origin of proposed of the nature and origin of justice. justice. justice. They say that to do injustice is by They say that to do injustice is by They say that to do injustice is by nature good, to suffer injustice evil. nature good, to suffer injustice evil. nature good, to suffer injustice evil. But that the evil is greater than the But that the evil is greater than the But that the evil is greater than the good. good. good. And so, when men have both done and And so, when men have both done and And so, when men have both done and suffered injustice and have had suffered injustice and have had suffered injustice and have had experience of both, not being able to experience of both, not being able to experience of both, not being able to avoid the one and obtain the other, they avoid the one and obtain the other, they avoid the one and obtain the other, they think that they had better agree among think that they had better agree among think that they had better agree among themselves to have neither. Hence, there themselves to have neither. Hence, there themselves to have neither. Hence, there arise laws and mutual covenants. And arise laws and mutual covenants. And arise laws and mutual covenants. And that which is ordained by law is termed that which is ordained by law is termed that which is ordained by law is termed by them lawful and just. by them lawful and just. by them lawful and just. Thus, they affirm to be the origin and Thus, they affirm to be the origin and Thus, they affirm to be the origin and nature of justice. It is a mean or nature of justice. It is a mean or nature of justice. It is a mean or compromise between the best of all, compromise between the best of all, compromise between the best of all, which is to do injustice and not be which is to do injustice and not be which is to do injustice and not be punished, and the worst of all, which is punished, and the worst of all, which is punished, and the worst of all, which is to suffer injustice without the power of to suffer injustice without the power of to suffer injustice without the power of retaliation.

retaliation. retaliation. And justice, being at a middle point And justice, being at a middle point And justice, being at a middle point between the two, is tolerated not as a between the two, is tolerated not as a between the two, is tolerated not as a good, but as the lesser evil, good, but as the lesser evil, good, but as the lesser evil, and honored by reason of the inability and honored by reason of the inability and honored by reason of the inability of men to do injustice. of men to do injustice. of men to do injustice. For no man who is worthy to be called a For no man who is worthy to be called a For no man who is worthy to be called a man would ever submit to such an man would ever submit to such an man would ever submit to such an agreement if he were able to resist. He agreement if he were able to resist. He agreement if he were able to resist. He would be mad if he did. Such is the would be mad if he did. Such is the would be mad if he did. Such is the received account, Socrates, of the received account, Socrates, of the received account, Socrates, of the nature and origin of justice. nature and origin of justice. nature and origin of justice. Now, how that those who practice justice Now, how that those who practice justice Now, how that those who practice justice do so involuntarily and because they do so involuntarily and because they do so involuntarily and because they have not the power to be unjust will have not the power to be unjust will have not the power to be unjust will best appear if we imagine something of best appear if we imagine something of best appear if we imagine something of this kind. Having given both to the just this kind. Having given both to the just this kind. Having given both to the just and the unjust power to do what they and the unjust power to do what they and the unjust power to do what they will, will, will, let us watch and see whither desire will let us watch and see whither desire will let us watch and see whither desire will lead them. Then we shall discover in the lead them. Then we shall discover in the lead them. Then we shall discover in the very act the just and unjust man to be very act the just and unjust man to be very act the just and unjust man to be proceeding along the same road, proceeding along the same road, proceeding along the same road, following their interest, which all following their interest, which all following their interest, which all natures deem to be their good, and are natures deem to be their good, and are natures deem to be their good, and are only diverted into the path of justice only diverted into the path of justice only diverted into the path of justice by the force of law.

by the force of law. by the force of law. The liberty which we are supposing may The liberty which we are supposing may The liberty which we are supposing may be most completely given to them in the be most completely given to them in the be most completely given to them in the form of such a power as is said to have form of such a power as is said to have form of such a power as is said to have been possessed by Gyges, the ancestor of been possessed by Gyges, the ancestor of been possessed by Gyges, the ancestor of Croesus, the Lydian. According to the Croesus, the Lydian. According to the Croesus, the Lydian. According to the tradition, Gyges was a shepherd in the tradition, Gyges was a shepherd in the tradition, Gyges was a shepherd in the service of the king of Lydia. There was service of the king of Lydia. There was service of the king of Lydia. There was a great storm, and an earthquake made an a great storm, and an earthquake made an a great storm, and an earthquake made an opening in the earth at the place where opening in the earth at the place where opening in the earth at the place where he was feeding his flock. he was feeding his flock. he was feeding his flock. Amazed at the sight, he descended into Amazed at the sight, he descended into Amazed at the sight, he descended into the opening, where, among other marvels, the opening, where, among other marvels, the opening, where, among other marvels, he beheld a hollow brazen horse having he beheld a hollow brazen horse having he beheld a hollow brazen horse having doors, at which he, stooping and looking doors, at which he, stooping and looking doors, at which he, stooping and looking in, saw a dead body of stature, as in, saw a dead body of stature, as in, saw a dead body of stature, as appeared to him, more than human, and appeared to him, more than human, and appeared to him, more than human, and having nothing on but a gold ring. having nothing on but a gold ring. having nothing on but a gold ring. This he took from the finger of the dead This he took from the finger of the dead This he took from the finger of the dead and reascended. and reascended. and reascended. Now, the shepherds met together, Now, the shepherds met together, Now, the shepherds met together, according to custom, that they might according to custom, that they might according to custom, that they might send their monthly report about the send their monthly report about the send their monthly report about the flocks to the king. flocks to the king. flocks to the king. Into their assembly he came having the Into their assembly he came having the Into their assembly he came having the ring on his finger, and as he was ring on his finger, and as he was ring on his finger, and as he was sitting among them, he chanced to turn sitting among them, he chanced to turn sitting among them, he chanced to turn the collet of the ring inside his hand.

the collet of the ring inside his hand. the collet of the ring inside his hand. When instantly he became invisible to When instantly he became invisible to When instantly he became invisible to the rest of the company, and they began the rest of the company, and they began the rest of the company, and they began to speak of him as if he were no longer to speak of him as if he were no longer to speak of him as if he were no longer present. present. present. He was astonished at this, and again He was astonished at this, and again He was astonished at this, and again touching the ring, he turned the collet touching the ring, he turned the collet touching the ring, he turned the collet outwards and reappeared. outwards and reappeared. outwards and reappeared. He made several trials of the ring, and He made several trials of the ring, and He made several trials of the ring, and always with the same result. always with the same result. always with the same result. When he turned the collet inwards, he When he turned the collet inwards, he When he turned the collet inwards, he became invisible. When outwards, he became invisible. When outwards, he became invisible. When outwards, he reappeared. reappeared. reappeared. Whereupon he contrived to be chosen one Whereupon he contrived to be chosen one Whereupon he contrived to be chosen one of the messengers who was sent to the of the messengers who was sent to the of the messengers who was sent to the court. Whereas, soon as he arrived, he court. Whereas, soon as he arrived, he court. Whereas, soon as he arrived, he seduced the queen, and with her help seduced the queen, and with her help seduced the queen, and with her help conspired against the king and slew him conspired against the king and slew him conspired against the king and slew him and took the kingdom. and took the kingdom. and took the kingdom. Suppose now that there were two such Suppose now that there were two such Suppose now that there were two such magic rings, and the just put on one of magic rings, and the just put on one of magic rings, and the just put on one of them and the unjust the other. them and the unjust the other. them and the unjust the other. No man can be imagined to be of such an No man can be imagined to be of such an No man can be imagined to be of such an iron nature that he would stand fast in iron nature that he would stand fast in iron nature that he would stand fast in justice. No man would keep his hands off justice. No man would keep his hands off justice. No man would keep his hands off what was not his own when he could what was not his own when he could what was not his own when he could safely take what he liked out of the safely take what he liked out of the safely take what he liked out of the market, or go into houses and lie with market, or go into houses and lie with market, or go into houses and lie with anyone at his pleasure, or kill or anyone at his pleasure, or kill or anyone at his pleasure, or kill or release from prison whom he would, and release from prison whom he would, and release from prison whom he would, and in all respects be like God among men.

in all respects be like God among men. in all respects be like God among men. Then the actions of the just would be as Then the actions of the just would be as Then the actions of the just would be as the actions of the unjust. They would the actions of the unjust. They would the actions of the unjust. They would both come at last to the same point. And both come at last to the same point. And both come at last to the same point. And this we may truly affirm to be a great this we may truly affirm to be a great this we may truly affirm to be a great proof that a man is just, not willingly proof that a man is just, not willingly proof that a man is just, not willingly or because he thinks that justice is any or because he thinks that justice is any or because he thinks that justice is any good to him individually, but of good to him individually, but of good to him individually, but of necessity. For wherever anyone thinks necessity. For wherever anyone thinks necessity. For wherever anyone thinks that he can safely be unjust, there he that he can safely be unjust, there he that he can safely be unjust, there he is unjust. is unjust. is unjust. For all men believe in their hearts that For all men believe in their hearts that For all men believe in their hearts that injustice is far more profitable to the injustice is far more profitable to the injustice is far more profitable to the individual than justice. And he who individual than justice. And he who individual than justice. And he who argues as I have been supposing will say argues as I have been supposing will say argues as I have been supposing will say that they are right. that they are right. that they are right. If you could imagine anyone obtaining If you could imagine anyone obtaining If you could imagine anyone obtaining this power of becoming invisible and this power of becoming invisible and this power of becoming invisible and never doing any wrong or touching what never doing any wrong or touching what never doing any wrong or touching what was another's, he would be thought by was another's, he would be thought by was another's, he would be thought by the lookers-on to be a most wretched the lookers-on to be a most wretched the lookers-on to be a most wretched idiot. idiot. idiot. Although they would praise him to one Although they would praise him to one Although they would praise him to one another's faces and keep up appearances another's faces and keep up appearances another's faces and keep up appearances with one another from a fear that they, with one another from a fear that they, with one another from a fear that they, too, might suffer injustice. too, might suffer injustice. too, might suffer injustice. Enough of this.

Enough of this. Enough of this. Now, if we are to form a real judgment Now, if we are to form a real judgment Now, if we are to form a real judgment of the life of the just and unjust, we of the life of the just and unjust, we of the life of the just and unjust, we must isolate them. There is no other must isolate them. There is no other must isolate them. There is no other way. And how is the isolation to be way. And how is the isolation to be way. And how is the isolation to be affected? affected? affected? I answer, let the unjust man be entirely I answer, let the unjust man be entirely I answer, let the unjust man be entirely unjust and the just man entirely just. unjust and the just man entirely just. unjust and the just man entirely just. Nothing is to be taken away from either Nothing is to be taken away from either Nothing is to be taken away from either of them, and both are to be perfectly of them, and both are to be perfectly of them, and both are to be perfectly furnished for the work of their furnished for the work of their furnished for the work of their respective lives. respective lives. respective lives. First, let the unjust be like other First, let the unjust be like other First, let the unjust be like other distinguished masters of craft, like the distinguished masters of craft, like the distinguished masters of craft, like the skillful pilot or physician, who knows skillful pilot or physician, who knows skillful pilot or physician, who knows intuitively his own powers and keeps intuitively his own powers and keeps intuitively his own powers and keeps within their limits, and who, if he within their limits, and who, if he within their limits, and who, if he fails at any point, is able to recover fails at any point, is able to recover fails at any point, is able to recover himself. himself. himself. So, let the unjust make his unjust So, let the unjust make his unjust So, let the unjust make his unjust attempts in the right way and lie hidden attempts in the right way and lie hidden attempts in the right way and lie hidden if he means to be great in his if he means to be great in his if he means to be great in his injustice. He who is found out is injustice. He who is found out is injustice. He who is found out is nobody. For the highest reach of nobody. For the highest reach of nobody. For the highest reach of injustice is to be deemed just when you injustice is to be deemed just when you injustice is to be deemed just when you are not.

are not. are not. Therefore, I say that in the perfectly Therefore, I say that in the perfectly Therefore, I say that in the perfectly unjust man, we must assume the most unjust man, we must assume the most unjust man, we must assume the most perfect injustice. There is to be no perfect injustice. There is to be no perfect injustice. There is to be no deduction, but we must allow him, while deduction, but we must allow him, while deduction, but we must allow him, while doing the most unjust acts, to have doing the most unjust acts, to have doing the most unjust acts, to have acquitted the greatest reputation for acquitted the greatest reputation for acquitted the greatest reputation for justice. justice. justice. If he have taken a false step, he must If he have taken a false step, he must If he have taken a false step, he must be able to recover himself. He must be be able to recover himself. He must be be able to recover himself. He must be one who can speak with effect if any of one who can speak with effect if any of one who can speak with effect if any of his deeds come to light, and who can his deeds come to light, and who can his deeds come to light, and who can enforce his way where is required, by enforce his way where is required, by enforce his way where is required, by his courage and strength, and command of his courage and strength, and command of his courage and strength, and command of money and friends. money and friends. money and friends. And at his side, let us place the just And at his side, let us place the just And at his side, let us place the just man in his nobleness and simplicity, man in his nobleness and simplicity, man in his nobleness and simplicity, wishing, as Aeschylus says, to be and wishing, as Aeschylus says, to be and wishing, as Aeschylus says, to be and not to seem good. not to seem good. not to seem good. There must be no seeming, for if he There must be no seeming, for if he There must be no seeming, for if he seemed to be just, he will be honored seemed to be just, he will be honored seemed to be just, he will be honored and rewarded, and then we shall not know and rewarded, and then we shall not know and rewarded, and then we shall not know whether he is just for the sake of whether he is just for the sake of whether he is just for the sake of justice or for the sake of honors and justice or for the sake of honors and justice or for the sake of honors and rewards. rewards. rewards. Therefore, let him be clothed in justice Therefore, let him be clothed in justice Therefore, let him be clothed in justice only, and have no other covering. And he only, and have no other covering. And he only, and have no other covering. And he must be imagined in a state of life the must be imagined in a state of life the must be imagined in a state of life the opposite of the former.

opposite of the former. opposite of the former. Let him be the best of men, and let him Let him be the best of men, and let him Let him be the best of men, and let him be thought the worst. Then he will have be thought the worst. Then he will have be thought the worst. Then he will have been put to the proof, and we shall see been put to the proof, and we shall see been put to the proof, and we shall see whether he will be affected by the fear whether he will be affected by the fear whether he will be affected by the fear of infamy and its consequences. of infamy and its consequences. of infamy and its consequences. And let him continue thus to the hour of And let him continue thus to the hour of And let him continue thus to the hour of death, being just and seeming to be death, being just and seeming to be death, being just and seeming to be unjust. unjust. unjust. When both have reached the utmost When both have reached the utmost When both have reached the utmost extreme, the one of justice and the extreme, the one of justice and the extreme, the one of justice and the other of injustice, let judgment be other of injustice, let judgment be other of injustice, let judgment be given which of them is the happier of given which of them is the happier of given which of them is the happier of the two. the two. the two. Heavens, my dear Glaucon, I said, "How Heavens, my dear Glaucon, I said, "How Heavens, my dear Glaucon, I said, "How energetically you polish them up for the energetically you polish them up for the energetically you polish them up for the decision, first one, then the other, as decision, first one, then the other, as decision, first one, then the other, as if they were two statues." if they were two statues." if they were two statues." "I do my best," he said. "I do my best," he said. "I do my best," he said. "And now that we know what they are "And now that we know what they are "And now that we know what they are like, there is no difficulty in tracing like, there is no difficulty in tracing like, there is no difficulty in tracing out the sort of life which awaits either out the sort of life which awaits either out the sort of life which awaits either of them. This I will proceed to of them. This I will proceed to of them. This I will proceed to describe. But as you may think the describe. But as you may think the describe. But as you may think the description a little too coarse, I ask description a little too coarse, I ask description a little too coarse, I ask you to suppose, Socrates, that the words you to suppose, Socrates, that the words you to suppose, Socrates, that the words which follow are not mine. Let me put which follow are not mine. Let me put which follow are not mine. Let me put them into the mouths of the eulogists of them into the mouths of the eulogists of them into the mouths of the eulogists of injustice.

injustice. injustice. They will tell you that the just man who They will tell you that the just man who They will tell you that the just man who is thought unjust will be scourged, is thought unjust will be scourged, is thought unjust will be scourged, racked, bound, will have his eyes burnt racked, bound, will have his eyes burnt racked, bound, will have his eyes burnt out, and at last, after suffering every out, and at last, after suffering every out, and at last, after suffering every kind of evil, he will be impaled. kind of evil, he will be impaled. kind of evil, he will be impaled. Then he will understand that he ought to Then he will understand that he ought to Then he will understand that he ought to seem only and not to be just. seem only and not to be just. seem only and not to be just. The words of Aeschylus may be more truly The words of Aeschylus may be more truly The words of Aeschylus may be more truly spoken of the unjust than of the just. spoken of the unjust than of the just. spoken of the unjust than of the just. For the unjust is pursuing a reality. He For the unjust is pursuing a reality. He For the unjust is pursuing a reality. He does not live with a view to appearance. does not live with a view to appearance. does not live with a view to appearance. He wants to be really unjust and not to He wants to be really unjust and not to He wants to be really unjust and not to seem only. seem only. seem only. His mind has a soil deep and fertile, His mind has a soil deep and fertile, His mind has a soil deep and fertile, out of which spring his prudent out of which spring his prudent out of which spring his prudent counsels. counsels. counsels. In the first place, he is thought just, In the first place, he is thought just, In the first place, he is thought just, and therefore bears rule in the city. He and therefore bears rule in the city. He and therefore bears rule in the city. He can marry whom he will and give in can marry whom he will and give in can marry whom he will and give in marriage to whom he will. Also, he can marriage to whom he will. Also, he can marriage to whom he will. Also, he can trade and deal where he likes, and trade and deal where he likes, and trade and deal where he likes, and always to his own advantage, because he always to his own advantage, because he always to his own advantage, because he has no misgivings about injustice. has no misgivings about injustice. has no misgivings about injustice. And at every contest, whether in public And at every contest, whether in public And at every contest, whether in public or private, he gets the better of his or private, he gets the better of his or private, he gets the better of his antagonists and gains at their expense, antagonists and gains at their expense, antagonists and gains at their expense, and he is rich, and out of his gains he and he is rich, and out of his gains he and he is rich, and out of his gains he can benefit his friends and harm his can benefit his friends and harm his can benefit his friends and harm his enemies.

enemies. enemies. Moreover, he can offer sacrifices and Moreover, he can offer sacrifices and Moreover, he can offer sacrifices and dedicate gifts to the gods abundantly dedicate gifts to the gods abundantly dedicate gifts to the gods abundantly and magnificently, and can honor the and magnificently, and can honor the and magnificently, and can honor the gods or any man whom he wants to honor gods or any man whom he wants to honor gods or any man whom he wants to honor in a far better style than the just, and in a far better style than the just, and in a far better style than the just, and therefore he is likely to be dearer than therefore he is likely to be dearer than therefore he is likely to be dearer than they are to the gods. they are to the gods. they are to the gods. And thus, Socrates, gods and men are And thus, Socrates, gods and men are And thus, Socrates, gods and men are said to unite in making the life of the said to unite in making the life of the said to unite in making the life of the unjust better than the life of the just. unjust better than the life of the just. unjust better than the life of the just. I was going to say something in answer I was going to say something in answer I was going to say something in answer to Glaucon, when Adamantus, his brother, to Glaucon, when Adamantus, his brother, to Glaucon, when Adamantus, his brother, interposed. "Socrates," he said, "do you interposed. "Socrates," he said, "do you interposed. "Socrates," he said, "do you not suppose that there is nothing more not suppose that there is nothing more not suppose that there is nothing more to be urged?" to be urged?" to be urged?" "Why, what else is there?" I answered. "Why, what else is there?" I answered. "Why, what else is there?" I answered. "The strongest point of all has not even "The strongest point of all has not even "The strongest point of all has not even been mentioned," he replied. been mentioned," he replied. been mentioned," he replied. "Well, then, according to the proverb, "Well, then, according to the proverb, "Well, then, according to the proverb, let brother help brother. If he fails in let brother help brother. If he fails in let brother help brother. If he fails in any part, do you assist him? Although I any part, do you assist him? Although I any part, do you assist him? Although I must confess that Glaucon has already must confess that Glaucon has already must confess that Glaucon has already said quite enough to lay me in the dust said quite enough to lay me in the dust said quite enough to lay me in the dust and take from me the power of helping and take from me the power of helping and take from me the power of helping justice.

justice. justice. Nonsense. He replied. But let me add Nonsense. He replied. But let me add Nonsense. He replied. But let me add something more. There is another side to something more. There is another side to something more. There is another side to Glaucon's argument about the praise and Glaucon's argument about the praise and Glaucon's argument about the praise and censure of justice and injustice, which censure of justice and injustice, which censure of justice and injustice, which is equally required in order to bring is equally required in order to bring is equally required in order to bring out what I believe to be his meaning. out what I believe to be his meaning. out what I believe to be his meaning. Parents and tutors are always telling Parents and tutors are always telling Parents and tutors are always telling their sons and their wards that they are their sons and their wards that they are their sons and their wards that they are to be just. But why? Not for the sake of to be just. But why? Not for the sake of to be just. But why? Not for the sake of justice, but for the sake of character justice, but for the sake of character justice, but for the sake of character and reputation. and reputation. and reputation. In the hope of obtaining for him who is In the hope of obtaining for him who is In the hope of obtaining for him who is reputed just some of these offices, reputed just some of these offices, reputed just some of these offices, marriages, and the like which Glaucon marriages, and the like which Glaucon marriages, and the like which Glaucon has enumerated among the advantages has enumerated among the advantages has enumerated among the advantages accruing to the unjust from the accruing to the unjust from the accruing to the unjust from the reputation of justice. reputation of justice. reputation of justice. More, however, is made of appearances by More, however, is made of appearances by More, however, is made of appearances by this class of persons than by the this class of persons than by the this class of persons than by the others. For they throw in the good others. For they throw in the good others. For they throw in the good opinion of the gods and will tell you of opinion of the gods and will tell you of opinion of the gods and will tell you of a shower of benefits which the heavens, a shower of benefits which the heavens, a shower of benefits which the heavens, as they say, rain upon the pious. And as they say, rain upon the pious. And as they say, rain upon the pious. And this accords with the testimony of the this accords with the testimony of the this accords with the testimony of the noble Hesiod and Homer. The first of noble Hesiod and Homer. The first of noble Hesiod and Homer. The first of whom says that the gods make the oaks of whom says that the gods make the oaks of whom says that the gods make the oaks of the just to bear acorns at their summit the just to bear acorns at their summit the just to bear acorns at their summit and bees in the middle, and the sheep and bees in the middle, and the sheep and bees in the middle, and the sheep are bowed down with the weight of their are bowed down with the weight of their are bowed down with the weight of their fleeces. And many other blessings of a fleeces. And many other blessings of a fleeces. And many other blessings of a like kind are provided for them.

like kind are provided for them. like kind are provided for them. And Homer has a very similar strain. For And Homer has a very similar strain. For And Homer has a very similar strain. For he speaks of one whose fame is as the he speaks of one whose fame is as the he speaks of one whose fame is as the fame of some blameless king who, like a fame of some blameless king who, like a fame of some blameless king who, like a god, maintains justice, to whom the god, maintains justice, to whom the god, maintains justice, to whom the black earth brings forth wheat and black earth brings forth wheat and black earth brings forth wheat and barley, whose trees are bowed with barley, whose trees are bowed with barley, whose trees are bowed with fruit, and his sheep never fail to bear, fruit, and his sheep never fail to bear, fruit, and his sheep never fail to bear, and the sea gives him fish. and the sea gives him fish. and the sea gives him fish. Still grander are the gifts of heaven Still grander are the gifts of heaven Still grander are the gifts of heaven which Musaeus and his son vouchsafe to which Musaeus and his son vouchsafe to which Musaeus and his son vouchsafe to the just. They take them down into the the just. They take them down into the the just. They take them down into the world below, where they have the saints world below, where they have the saints world below, where they have the saints lying on couches at a feast, lying on couches at a feast, lying on couches at a feast, everlastingly drunk, crowned with everlastingly drunk, crowned with everlastingly drunk, crowned with garlands. garlands. garlands. Their idea seems to be that an Their idea seems to be that an Their idea seems to be that an immortality of drunkenness is the immortality of drunkenness is the immortality of drunkenness is the highest meed of virtue. highest meed of virtue. highest meed of virtue. Some extend their rewards yet further. Some extend their rewards yet further. Some extend their rewards yet further. The posterity, as they say, of the The posterity, as they say, of the The posterity, as they say, of the faithful and just shall survive to the faithful and just shall survive to the faithful and just shall survive to the third and fourth generation. third and fourth generation. third and fourth generation. This is the style in which they praise This is the style in which they praise This is the style in which they praise justice. But about the wicked there is justice. But about the wicked there is justice. But about the wicked there is another strain. They bury them in a another strain. They bury them in a another strain. They bury them in a slough at Hades and make them carry slough at Hades and make them carry slough at Hades and make them carry water in a sieve.

water in a sieve. water in a sieve. Also, while they are yet living, they Also, while they are yet living, they Also, while they are yet living, they bring them to infamy and inflict upon bring them to infamy and inflict upon bring them to infamy and inflict upon them the punishments which Glaucon them the punishments which Glaucon them the punishments which Glaucon described as the portion of the just who described as the portion of the just who described as the portion of the just who are reputed to be unjust. Nothing else are reputed to be unjust. Nothing else are reputed to be unjust. Nothing else does their invention supply. Such is the does their invention supply. Such is the does their invention supply. Such is the manner of praising the one and censuring manner of praising the one and censuring manner of praising the one and censuring the other. the other. the other. Once more, Socrates, I will ask you to Once more, Socrates, I will ask you to Once more, Socrates, I will ask you to consider another way of speaking about consider another way of speaking about consider another way of speaking about justice and injustice, which is not justice and injustice, which is not justice and injustice, which is not confined to the poets, but is found in confined to the poets, but is found in confined to the poets, but is found in prose writers. The universal voice of prose writers. The universal voice of prose writers. The universal voice of mankind is always declaring that justice mankind is always declaring that justice mankind is always declaring that justice and virtue are honorable, but grievous and virtue are honorable, but grievous and virtue are honorable, but grievous and toilsome. and toilsome. and toilsome. And that the pleasures of vice and And that the pleasures of vice and And that the pleasures of vice and injustice are easy of attainment and are injustice are easy of attainment and are injustice are easy of attainment and are only censured by law and opinion. They only censured by law and opinion. They only censured by law and opinion. They say also that honesty is for the most say also that honesty is for the most say also that honesty is for the most part less profitable than dishonesty. part less profitable than dishonesty. part less profitable than dishonesty. And they are quite ready to call wicked And they are quite ready to call wicked And they are quite ready to call wicked men happy and to honor them both in men happy and to honor them both in men happy and to honor them both in public and private when they are rich or public and private when they are rich or public and private when they are rich or in any other way influential. in any other way influential. in any other way influential. While they despise and overlook those While they despise and overlook those While they despise and overlook those who may be weak and poor, even though who may be weak and poor, even though who may be weak and poor, even though acknowledging them to be better than the acknowledging them to be better than the acknowledging them to be better than the others.

others. others. But most extraordinary of all is their But most extraordinary of all is their But most extraordinary of all is their mode of speaking about virtue and the mode of speaking about virtue and the mode of speaking about virtue and the gods. gods. gods. They say that the gods apportion They say that the gods apportion They say that the gods apportion calamity and misery to many good men and calamity and misery to many good men and calamity and misery to many good men and good and happiness to the wicked. good and happiness to the wicked. good and happiness to the wicked. The mendicant prophets go to rich men's The mendicant prophets go to rich men's The mendicant prophets go to rich men's doors and persuade them that they have a doors and persuade them that they have a doors and persuade them that they have a power committed to them by the gods of power committed to them by the gods of power committed to them by the gods of making an atonement for man's own or his making an atonement for man's own or his making an atonement for man's own or his ancestors' sins by sacrifices or charms ancestors' sins by sacrifices or charms ancestors' sins by sacrifices or charms with rejoicings and feasts. with rejoicings and feasts. with rejoicings and feasts. And they promise to harm an enemy, And they promise to harm an enemy, And they promise to harm an enemy, whether just or unjust, at a small cost whether just or unjust, at a small cost whether just or unjust, at a small cost with magic arts and incantations binding with magic arts and incantations binding with magic arts and incantations binding heaven, as they say, to execute their heaven, as they say, to execute their heaven, as they say, to execute their will. will. will. And the poets are the authorities to And the poets are the authorities to And the poets are the authorities to whom they appeal. Now, smoothing the whom they appeal. Now, smoothing the whom they appeal. Now, smoothing the path of vice with the words of Hesiod path of vice with the words of Hesiod path of vice with the words of Hesiod Vice may be had in abundance without Vice may be had in abundance without Vice may be had in abundance without trouble. The way is smooth, and her trouble. The way is smooth, and her trouble. The way is smooth, and her dwelling place is near. dwelling place is near. dwelling place is near. But before virtue, the gods have set But before virtue, the gods have set But before virtue, the gods have set toil and a tedious and uphill road.

toil and a tedious and uphill road. toil and a tedious and uphill road. Then, citing Homer as a witness that the Then, citing Homer as a witness that the Then, citing Homer as a witness that the gods may be influenced by men, for he gods may be influenced by men, for he gods may be influenced by men, for he also says, "The gods too may be turned also says, "The gods too may be turned also says, "The gods too may be turned from their purpose, and men pray to them from their purpose, and men pray to them from their purpose, and men pray to them and avert their wrath by sacrifices and and avert their wrath by sacrifices and and avert their wrath by sacrifices and soothing entreaties and by libations and soothing entreaties and by libations and soothing entreaties and by libations and the odor of fat when they have sinned the odor of fat when they have sinned the odor of fat when they have sinned and transgressed." and transgressed." and transgressed." And they produce a host of books written And they produce a host of books written And they produce a host of books written by Musaeus and Orpheus, who were by Musaeus and Orpheus, who were by Musaeus and Orpheus, who were children of the moon and the Muses, that children of the moon and the Muses, that children of the moon and the Muses, that is what they say, according to which is what they say, according to which is what they say, according to which they perform their ritual and persuade they perform their ritual and persuade they perform their ritual and persuade not only individuals but whole cities not only individuals but whole cities not only individuals but whole cities that expiations and atonements for sin that expiations and atonements for sin that expiations and atonements for sin may be made by sacrifices and amusements may be made by sacrifices and amusements may be made by sacrifices and amusements which fill a vacant hour and are equally which fill a vacant hour and are equally which fill a vacant hour and are equally at the service of the living and the at the service of the living and the at the service of the living and the dead. The latter sort they call dead. The latter sort they call dead. The latter sort they call mysteries, and they redeem us from the mysteries, and they redeem us from the mysteries, and they redeem us from the pains of hell. But if we neglect them, pains of hell. But if we neglect them, pains of hell. But if we neglect them, no one knows what awaits us. no one knows what awaits us. no one knows what awaits us. He proceeded, "And now, He proceeded, "And now, He proceeded, "And now, when the young hear all this said about when the young hear all this said about when the young hear all this said about virtue and vice and the way in which virtue and vice and the way in which virtue and vice and the way in which gods and men regard them, how are their gods and men regard them, how are their gods and men regard them, how are their minds likely to be affected, my dear minds likely to be affected, my dear minds likely to be affected, my dear Socrates? Those of them I mean who are Socrates? Those of them I mean who are Socrates? Those of them I mean who are quick-witted and, like bees on the wing, quick-witted and, like bees on the wing, quick-witted and, like bees on the wing, light on every flower, and from all that light on every flower, and from all that light on every flower, and from all that they hear are prone to draw conclusions they hear are prone to draw conclusions they hear are prone to draw conclusions as to what manner of persons they should as to what manner of persons they should as to what manner of persons they should be, and in what way they should walk if be, and in what way they should walk if be, and in what way they should walk if they would make the best of life.

they would make the best of life. they would make the best of life. Probably, the youth will say to himself, Probably, the youth will say to himself, Probably, the youth will say to himself, in the words of Pindar, in the words of Pindar, in the words of Pindar, "Can I by justice or by crooked ways of "Can I by justice or by crooked ways of "Can I by justice or by crooked ways of deceit ascend a loftier tower which may deceit ascend a loftier tower which may deceit ascend a loftier tower which may be a fortress to me all my days? be a fortress to me all my days? be a fortress to me all my days? For what men say is that if I am really For what men say is that if I am really For what men say is that if I am really just and not also thought just, profit just and not also thought just, profit just and not also thought just, profit there is none. But the pain and loss on there is none. But the pain and loss on there is none. But the pain and loss on the other hand are unmistakable. But if, the other hand are unmistakable. But if, the other hand are unmistakable. But if, though unjust, I acquire the reputation though unjust, I acquire the reputation though unjust, I acquire the reputation of justice, a heavenly life is promised of justice, a heavenly life is promised of justice, a heavenly life is promised to me. Since then, as philosophers to me. Since then, as philosophers to me. Since then, as philosophers prove, appearance tyrannizes over truth prove, appearance tyrannizes over truth prove, appearance tyrannizes over truth and is lord of happiness, to appearance and is lord of happiness, to appearance and is lord of happiness, to appearance I must devote myself. I must devote myself. I must devote myself. I will describe around me a picture and I will describe around me a picture and I will describe around me a picture and shadow of virtue to be the best to build shadow of virtue to be the best to build shadow of virtue to be the best to build an exterior of my house. an exterior of my house. an exterior of my house. Behind I will trail the subtle and Behind I will trail the subtle and Behind I will trail the subtle and crafty fox, as Archilochus, greatest of crafty fox, as Archilochus, greatest of crafty fox, as Archilochus, greatest of sages, recommends. But I hear someone sages, recommends. But I hear someone sages, recommends. But I hear someone exclaiming that the concealment of exclaiming that the concealment of exclaiming that the concealment of wickedness is often difficult, to which wickedness is often difficult, to which wickedness is often difficult, to which I answer, "Nothing great is easy."

I answer, "Nothing great is easy." I answer, "Nothing great is easy." Nevertheless, the argument indicates Nevertheless, the argument indicates Nevertheless, the argument indicates this if we would be happy to be the path this if we would be happy to be the path this if we would be happy to be the path along which we should proceed. along which we should proceed. along which we should proceed. With a view to concealment, we will With a view to concealment, we will With a view to concealment, we will establish secret brotherhoods and establish secret brotherhoods and establish secret brotherhoods and political clubs. political clubs. political clubs. And there are professors of rhetoric who And there are professors of rhetoric who And there are professors of rhetoric who teach the art of persuading courts and teach the art of persuading courts and teach the art of persuading courts and assemblies, and so, partly by persuasion assemblies, and so, partly by persuasion assemblies, and so, partly by persuasion and partly by force, I shall make and partly by force, I shall make and partly by force, I shall make unlawful gains and not be punished. unlawful gains and not be punished. unlawful gains and not be punished. Still, I hear a voice saying that the Still, I hear a voice saying that the Still, I hear a voice saying that the gods cannot be deceived, neither can gods cannot be deceived, neither can gods cannot be deceived, neither can they be compelled. But what if there are they be compelled. But what if there are they be compelled. But what if there are no gods? Or suppose them to have no care no gods? Or suppose them to have no care no gods? Or suppose them to have no care of human things. Why in either case of human things. Why in either case of human things. Why in either case should I mind about concealment? should I mind about concealment? should I mind about concealment? And even if there are gods, and they do And even if there are gods, and they do And even if there are gods, and they do care about us, what yet we know of them care about us, what yet we know of them care about us, what yet we know of them only from tradition and the genealogies only from tradition and the genealogies only from tradition and the genealogies of the poets? of the poets? of the poets? And these are the very persons who say And these are the very persons who say And these are the very persons who say that they may be influenced and turned that they may be influenced and turned that they may be influenced and turned by sacrifices and soothing entreaties by sacrifices and soothing entreaties by sacrifices and soothing entreaties and by offerings.

and by offerings. and by offerings. Let us be consistent then, and believe Let us be consistent then, and believe Let us be consistent then, and believe both or neither. both or neither. both or neither. If the poets speak truly, why then we If the poets speak truly, why then we If the poets speak truly, why then we had better be unjust and offer the had better be unjust and offer the had better be unjust and offer the fruits of injustice. For if we are just, fruits of injustice. For if we are just, fruits of injustice. For if we are just, although we may escape the vengeance of although we may escape the vengeance of although we may escape the vengeance of heaven, we shall lose the gains of heaven, we shall lose the gains of heaven, we shall lose the gains of injustice. But if we are unjust, we injustice. But if we are unjust, we injustice. But if we are unjust, we shall keep the gains, and by our sinning shall keep the gains, and by our sinning shall keep the gains, and by our sinning and praying and praying and sinning, the and praying and praying and sinning, the and praying and praying and sinning, the gods will be propitiated, and we shall gods will be propitiated, and we shall gods will be propitiated, and we shall not be punished. not be punished. not be punished. But there is a world below in which But there is a world below in which But there is a world below in which either we or our posterity will suffer either we or our posterity will suffer either we or our posterity will suffer for unjust deeds. for unjust deeds. for unjust deeds. Yes, my friend, will be the reflection, Yes, my friend, will be the reflection, Yes, my friend, will be the reflection, but there are mysteries and atoning but there are mysteries and atoning but there are mysteries and atoning deities, and these have great power. deities, and these have great power. deities, and these have great power. This is what mighty cities declare, and This is what mighty cities declare, and This is what mighty cities declare, and the children of the gods, who were their the children of the gods, who were their the children of the gods, who were their poets and prophets, bear alike poets and prophets, bear alike poets and prophets, bear alike testimony. testimony. testimony. On what principle then shall we any On what principle then shall we any On what principle then shall we any longer choose justice rather than the longer choose justice rather than the longer choose justice rather than the worst injustice, when if we only unite worst injustice, when if we only unite worst injustice, when if we only unite the latter with a deceitful regard to the latter with a deceitful regard to the latter with a deceitful regard to appearances, we shall fare to our mind appearances, we shall fare to our mind appearances, we shall fare to our mind both with gods and men in life and after both with gods and men in life and after both with gods and men in life and after death, as the most numerous and the death, as the most numerous and the death, as the most numerous and the highest authorities tell us?

highest authorities tell us? highest authorities tell us? Knowing all this, Socrates, how can a Knowing all this, Socrates, how can a Knowing all this, Socrates, how can a man who has any superiority of mind or man who has any superiority of mind or man who has any superiority of mind or person or rank or wealth be willing to person or rank or wealth be willing to person or rank or wealth be willing to honor justice, or indeed to refrain from honor justice, or indeed to refrain from honor justice, or indeed to refrain from laughing when he hears justice praised? laughing when he hears justice praised? laughing when he hears justice praised? And even if there should be someone who And even if there should be someone who And even if there should be someone who is able to disprove the truth of my is able to disprove the truth of my is able to disprove the truth of my words and who is satisfied that justice words and who is satisfied that justice words and who is satisfied that justice is best. Still, he is not angry with the is best. Still, he is not angry with the is best. Still, he is not angry with the unjust, but is very ready to forgive unjust, but is very ready to forgive unjust, but is very ready to forgive them because he also knows that men are them because he also knows that men are them because he also knows that men are not just of their own free will, unless not just of their own free will, unless not just of their own free will, unless peradventure there be someone whom the peradventure there be someone whom the peradventure there be someone whom the divinity within him may have inspired divinity within him may have inspired divinity within him may have inspired with a hatred of injustice or who has with a hatred of injustice or who has with a hatred of injustice or who has attained knowledge of the truth, but no attained knowledge of the truth, but no attained knowledge of the truth, but no other man. other man. other man. He only blames injustice who, owing to He only blames injustice who, owing to He only blames injustice who, owing to cowardice or age or some weakness, has cowardice or age or some weakness, has cowardice or age or some weakness, has not the power of being unjust. And this not the power of being unjust. And this not the power of being unjust. And this is proved by the fact that when he is proved by the fact that when he is proved by the fact that when he obtains the power, he immediately obtains the power, he immediately obtains the power, he immediately becomes unjust as far as he can be.

becomes unjust as far as he can be. becomes unjust as far as he can be. The cause of all this, Socrates, was The cause of all this, Socrates, was The cause of all this, Socrates, was indicated by us at the beginning of the indicated by us at the beginning of the indicated by us at the beginning of the argument, when my brother and I told you argument, when my brother and I told you argument, when my brother and I told you how astonished we were to find that all how astonished we were to find that all how astonished we were to find that all of the professing panegyrists of of the professing panegyrists of of the professing panegyrists of justice, beginning with the ancient justice, beginning with the ancient justice, beginning with the ancient heroes of whom many memorial has been heroes of whom many memorial has been heroes of whom many memorial has been preserved to us, and ending with the men preserved to us, and ending with the men preserved to us, and ending with the men of our own time, no one has ever blamed of our own time, no one has ever blamed of our own time, no one has ever blamed injustice or praised justice except with injustice or praised justice except with injustice or praised justice except with a view to the glories, honors, and a view to the glories, honors, and a view to the glories, honors, and benefits which flow from them. benefits which flow from them. benefits which flow from them. No one has ever adequately described, No one has ever adequately described, No one has ever adequately described, either in verse or prose, the true either in verse or prose, the true either in verse or prose, the true essential nature of either of them essential nature of either of them essential nature of either of them abiding in the soul and invisible to any abiding in the soul and invisible to any abiding in the soul and invisible to any human or divine eye, or shown that of human or divine eye, or shown that of human or divine eye, or shown that of all the things of a man's soul which he all the things of a man's soul which he all the things of a man's soul which he has within him, has within him, has within him, justice is the greatest good and justice is the greatest good and justice is the greatest good and injustice the greatest evil. injustice the greatest evil. injustice the greatest evil. Had this been the universal strain, had Had this been the universal strain, had Had this been the universal strain, had you sought to persuade us of this from you sought to persuade us of this from you sought to persuade us of this from our youth upwards, we should not have our youth upwards, we should not have our youth upwards, we should not have been on the watch to keep one another been on the watch to keep one another been on the watch to keep one another from doing wrong, from doing wrong, from doing wrong, but everyone would have been his own but everyone would have been his own but everyone would have been his own watchman, because afraid, if he did watchman, because afraid, if he did watchman, because afraid, if he did wrong, of harboring in himself the wrong, of harboring in himself the wrong, of harboring in himself the greatest of evils.

greatest of evils. greatest of evils. I dare say that Thrasymachus and others I dare say that Thrasymachus and others I dare say that Thrasymachus and others would seriously hold the language which would seriously hold the language which would seriously hold the language which I have been merely repeating, and words I have been merely repeating, and words I have been merely repeating, and words even stronger than these about justice even stronger than these about justice even stronger than these about justice and injustice, grossly as I conceive, and injustice, grossly as I conceive, and injustice, grossly as I conceive, perverting their true nature. perverting their true nature. perverting their true nature. But I speak in this vehement manner, as But I speak in this vehement manner, as But I speak in this vehement manner, as I must frankly confess to you, because I I must frankly confess to you, because I I must frankly confess to you, because I want to hear from you the opposite side. want to hear from you the opposite side. want to hear from you the opposite side. And I would ask you to show not only the And I would ask you to show not only the And I would ask you to show not only the superiority which justice has over superiority which justice has over superiority which justice has over injustice, but what effect they have on injustice, but what effect they have on injustice, but what effect they have on the possessor of them, which makes the the possessor of them, which makes the the possessor of them, which makes the one to be a good and the other an evil one to be a good and the other an evil one to be a good and the other an evil to him. to him. to him. And please, as Glaucon requested of you, And please, as Glaucon requested of you, And please, as Glaucon requested of you, to exclude reputations. For unless you to exclude reputations. For unless you to exclude reputations. For unless you take away from each of them his true take away from each of them his true take away from each of them his true reputation and add on the false, reputation and add on the false, reputation and add on the false, we shall say that you do not praise we shall say that you do not praise we shall say that you do not praise justice, but the appearance of it. justice, but the appearance of it. justice, but the appearance of it. We shall think that you are only We shall think that you are only We shall think that you are only exhorting us to keep injustice dark, and exhorting us to keep injustice dark, and exhorting us to keep injustice dark, and that you really agree with Thrasymachus that you really agree with Thrasymachus that you really agree with Thrasymachus in thinking that justice is another's in thinking that justice is another's in thinking that justice is another's good and the interest of the stronger, good and the interest of the stronger, good and the interest of the stronger, and that injustice is a man's own profit and that injustice is a man's own profit and that injustice is a man's own profit and interest, though injurious to the and interest, though injurious to the and interest, though injurious to the weaker.

weaker. weaker. Now, as you have admitted that justice Now, as you have admitted that justice Now, as you have admitted that justice is one of that highest class of goods is one of that highest class of goods is one of that highest class of goods which are desired, indeed, for their which are desired, indeed, for their which are desired, indeed, for their results, but in a far greater degree for results, but in a far greater degree for results, but in a far greater degree for their own sakes, like sight or hearing their own sakes, like sight or hearing their own sakes, like sight or hearing or knowledge or health or any other real or knowledge or health or any other real or knowledge or health or any other real and natural and not merely conventional and natural and not merely conventional and natural and not merely conventional good, I would ask you in your praise of good, I would ask you in your praise of good, I would ask you in your praise of justice to regard one point only. I mean justice to regard one point only. I mean justice to regard one point only. I mean the essential good and evil which the essential good and evil which the essential good and evil which justice and injustice work in the justice and injustice work in the justice and injustice work in the possessors of them. possessors of them. possessors of them. Let us praise justice and censure Let us praise justice and censure Let us praise justice and censure injustice, magnifying the rewards and injustice, magnifying the rewards and injustice, magnifying the rewards and honors of the one and abusing the other. honors of the one and abusing the other. honors of the one and abusing the other. That is a manner of arguing which, That is a manner of arguing which, That is a manner of arguing which, coming from them, I am ready to coming from them, I am ready to coming from them, I am ready to tolerate. But from you, who have spent tolerate. But from you, who have spent tolerate. But from you, who have spent your whole life in the consideration of your whole life in the consideration of your whole life in the consideration of this question, unless I hear the this question, unless I hear the this question, unless I hear the contrary from your own lips, I expect contrary from your own lips, I expect contrary from your own lips, I expect something better. something better. something better. And therefore, I say, "Not only prove to And therefore, I say, "Not only prove to And therefore, I say, "Not only prove to us that justice is better than us that justice is better than us that justice is better than injustice, injustice, injustice, but show what they either of them do to but show what they either of them do to but show what they either of them do to the possessor of them, which makes the the possessor of them, which makes the the possessor of them, which makes the one to be a good and the other an evil, one to be a good and the other an evil, one to be a good and the other an evil, whether seen or unseen by gods and men."

whether seen or unseen by gods and men." whether seen or unseen by gods and men." I have always admired the genius of I have always admired the genius of I have always admired the genius of Glaucon and Adeimantus, but on hearing Glaucon and Adeimantus, but on hearing Glaucon and Adeimantus, but on hearing these words, I was quite delighted and these words, I was quite delighted and these words, I was quite delighted and said, "Sons of an illustrious father, said, "Sons of an illustrious father, said, "Sons of an illustrious father, that was not a bad beginning of the that was not a bad beginning of the that was not a bad beginning of the elegiac verses which the admirer of elegiac verses which the admirer of elegiac verses which the admirer of Glaucon made in honor of you after you Glaucon made in honor of you after you Glaucon made in honor of you after you had distinguished yourselves at the had distinguished yourselves at the had distinguished yourselves at the Battle of Megara. Battle of Megara. Battle of Megara. Sons of Ariston, he sang, divine Sons of Ariston, he sang, divine Sons of Ariston, he sang, divine offspring of an illustrious hero." offspring of an illustrious hero." offspring of an illustrious hero." The epithet is very appropriate, for The epithet is very appropriate, for The epithet is very appropriate, for there is something truly divine in being there is something truly divine in being there is something truly divine in being able to argue as you have done for the able to argue as you have done for the able to argue as you have done for the superiority of injustice and remaining superiority of injustice and remaining superiority of injustice and remaining unconvinced by your own arguments. unconvinced by your own arguments. unconvinced by your own arguments. And I do believe that you are not And I do believe that you are not And I do believe that you are not convinced. This I infer from your convinced. This I infer from your convinced. This I infer from your general character, for had I judged you general character, for had I judged you general character, for had I judged you only from your speeches, I should have only from your speeches, I should have only from your speeches, I should have mistrusted you. mistrusted you. mistrusted you. But now, the greater my confidence in But now, the greater my confidence in But now, the greater my confidence in you, the greater is my difficulty in you, the greater is my difficulty in you, the greater is my difficulty in knowing what to say. knowing what to say. knowing what to say. For I am in a strait between two. On the For I am in a strait between two. On the For I am in a strait between two. On the one hand, I feel that I am unequal to one hand, I feel that I am unequal to one hand, I feel that I am unequal to the task, and my inability is brought the task, and my inability is brought the task, and my inability is brought home to me by the fact that you were not home to me by the fact that you were not home to me by the fact that you were not satisfied with the answer which I made satisfied with the answer which I made satisfied with the answer which I made to Thrasymachus, proving, as I thought, to Thrasymachus, proving, as I thought, to Thrasymachus, proving, as I thought, the superiority which justice has over the superiority which justice has over the superiority which justice has over injustice. And yet, I cannot refuse to injustice. And yet, I cannot refuse to injustice. And yet, I cannot refuse to help while breath and speech remain to help while breath and speech remain to help while breath and speech remain to me.

me. me. I am afraid that there would be an I am afraid that there would be an I am afraid that there would be an impiety in being present when justice is impiety in being present when justice is impiety in being present when justice is evil spoken of and not lifting up a hand evil spoken of and not lifting up a hand evil spoken of and not lifting up a hand in her defense. in her defense. in her defense. And therefore, I had best give such help And therefore, I had best give such help And therefore, I had best give such help as I can. as I can. as I can. Glaucon and the rest entreated me by all Glaucon and the rest entreated me by all Glaucon and the rest entreated me by all means not to let the question drop, but means not to let the question drop, but means not to let the question drop, but to proceed in the investigation. to proceed in the investigation. to proceed in the investigation. They wanted to arrive at the truth, They wanted to arrive at the truth, They wanted to arrive at the truth, first about the nature of justice and first about the nature of justice and first about the nature of justice and injustice, and secondly about their injustice, and secondly about their injustice, and secondly about their relative advantages. relative advantages. relative advantages. I told them what I really thought, that I told them what I really thought, that I told them what I really thought, that the inquiry would be of a serious nature the inquiry would be of a serious nature the inquiry would be of a serious nature and would require very good eyes. and would require very good eyes. and would require very good eyes. Seeing then, I said, that we are no Seeing then, I said, that we are no Seeing then, I said, that we are no great wits, I think that we had better great wits, I think that we had better great wits, I think that we had better adopt a method which I may illustrate adopt a method which I may illustrate adopt a method which I may illustrate thus. thus. thus. Suppose that a short-sighted person had Suppose that a short-sighted person had Suppose that a short-sighted person had been asked by someone to read small been asked by someone to read small been asked by someone to read small letters from a distance, and it occurred letters from a distance, and it occurred letters from a distance, and it occurred to someone else that they might be found to someone else that they might be found to someone else that they might be found in another place which was larger and in in another place which was larger and in in another place which was larger and in which the letters were larger. If they which the letters were larger. If they which the letters were larger. If they were the same and he could read the were the same and he could read the were the same and he could read the larger letters first, then proceed to larger letters first, then proceed to larger letters first, then proceed to the lesser, this would have been thought the lesser, this would have been thought the lesser, this would have been thought of rare piece of good fortune.

of rare piece of good fortune. of rare piece of good fortune. Very true, said Adeimantus, but how does Very true, said Adeimantus, but how does Very true, said Adeimantus, but how does the illustration apply to our inquiry? the illustration apply to our inquiry? the illustration apply to our inquiry? I will tell you, I replied. Justice, I will tell you, I replied. Justice, I will tell you, I replied. Justice, which is the subject of our inquiry, is, which is the subject of our inquiry, is, which is the subject of our inquiry, is, as you know, sometimes spoken of as a as you know, sometimes spoken of as a as you know, sometimes spoken of as a virtue of an individual and sometimes as virtue of an individual and sometimes as virtue of an individual and sometimes as a virtue of a state. a virtue of a state. a virtue of a state. True, he replied, and is not a state True, he replied, and is not a state True, he replied, and is not a state larger than an individual? larger than an individual? larger than an individual? It is. It is. It is. Then in the larger, the quantity of Then in the larger, the quantity of Then in the larger, the quantity of justice is likely to be larger and more justice is likely to be larger and more justice is likely to be larger and more easily discernible. I propose therefore easily discernible. I propose therefore easily discernible. I propose therefore that we inquire into the nature of that we inquire into the nature of that we inquire into the nature of justice and injustice, first as they justice and injustice, first as they justice and injustice, first as they appear in the state, and secondly in the appear in the state, and secondly in the appear in the state, and secondly in the individual, proceeding from the greater individual, proceeding from the greater individual, proceeding from the greater to the lesser and comparing them. to the lesser and comparing them. to the lesser and comparing them. That, he said, is an excellent proposal. That, he said, is an excellent proposal. That, he said, is an excellent proposal. And if we imagine the state in process And if we imagine the state in process And if we imagine the state in process of creation, we shall see the justice of creation, we shall see the justice of creation, we shall see the justice and injustice of the state in process of and injustice of the state in process of and injustice of the state in process of creation also. creation also. creation also. I dare say.

I dare say. I dare say. When the state is completed, there may When the state is completed, there may When the state is completed, there may be a hope that the object of our search be a hope that the object of our search be a hope that the object of our search will be more easily discovered. will be more easily discovered. will be more easily discovered. Yes, far more easily. Yes, far more easily. Yes, far more easily. But, ought we to attempt to construct But, ought we to attempt to construct But, ought we to attempt to construct one? I said. For to do so, as I am one? I said. For to do so, as I am one? I said. For to do so, as I am inclined to think, will be a very inclined to think, will be a very inclined to think, will be a very serious task. Reflect, therefore. serious task. Reflect, therefore. serious task. Reflect, therefore. I have reflected, said Adamantus, and I have reflected, said Adamantus, and I have reflected, said Adamantus, and I'm anxious that you should proceed. I'm anxious that you should proceed. I'm anxious that you should proceed. A state, I said, arises, as I conceive, A state, I said, arises, as I conceive, A state, I said, arises, as I conceive, out of the needs of mankind. No one is out of the needs of mankind. No one is out of the needs of mankind. No one is self-sufficing, but all of us have many self-sufficing, but all of us have many self-sufficing, but all of us have many wants. Can any other origin of a state wants. Can any other origin of a state wants. Can any other origin of a state be imagined? be imagined? be imagined? There can be no other. Then, as we have There can be no other. Then, as we have There can be no other. Then, as we have many wants, and many persons are needed many wants, and many persons are needed many wants, and many persons are needed to supply them, one takes a helper for to supply them, one takes a helper for to supply them, one takes a helper for one purpose and another for another. And one purpose and another for another. And one purpose and another for another. And when these partners and helpers are when these partners and helpers are when these partners and helpers are gathered together in one habitation, the gathered together in one habitation, the gathered together in one habitation, the body of inhabitants is termed a state. body of inhabitants is termed a state. body of inhabitants is termed a state. True, he said. True, he said. True, he said. And they exchange with one another, and And they exchange with one another, and And they exchange with one another, and one gives and another receives under the one gives and another receives under the one gives and another receives under the idea that exchange will be for their idea that exchange will be for their idea that exchange will be for their good. Very true. Then, I said, let us good. Very true. Then, I said, let us good. Very true. Then, I said, let us begin and create in idea a state. And begin and create in idea a state. And begin and create in idea a state. And yet the true creator is necessity, who yet the true creator is necessity, who yet the true creator is necessity, who is the mother of our invention.

is the mother of our invention. is the mother of our invention. Of course, he replied. Now, the first Of course, he replied. Now, the first Of course, he replied. Now, the first and greatest of necessities is food, and greatest of necessities is food, and greatest of necessities is food, which is the condition of life and which is the condition of life and which is the condition of life and existence. Certainly. The second is a existence. Certainly. The second is a existence. Certainly. The second is a dwelling, and the third clothing and the dwelling, and the third clothing and the dwelling, and the third clothing and the like. True. like. True. like. True. And now, let us see how our city will be And now, let us see how our city will be And now, let us see how our city will be able to supply the great demand. able to supply the great demand. able to supply the great demand. We may suppose that one man is a We may suppose that one man is a We may suppose that one man is a husbandman, another a builder, someone husbandman, another a builder, someone husbandman, another a builder, someone else a weaver. Shall we add to them a else a weaver. Shall we add to them a else a weaver. Shall we add to them a shoemaker, or perhaps some other shoemaker, or perhaps some other shoemaker, or perhaps some other purveyor to our bodily wants? Quite purveyor to our bodily wants? Quite purveyor to our bodily wants? Quite right. The barest notion of a state must right. The barest notion of a state must right. The barest notion of a state must include four or five men. include four or five men. include four or five men. Clearly. And how will they proceed? Will Clearly. And how will they proceed? Will Clearly. And how will they proceed? Will each bring the result of his labors into each bring the result of his labors into each bring the result of his labors into a common stock? The individual a common stock? The individual a common stock? The individual husbandman, for example, producing for husbandman, for example, producing for husbandman, for example, producing for four and laboring four times as long and four and laboring four times as long and four and laboring four times as long and as much as he need in the provision of as much as he need in the provision of as much as he need in the provision of food with which he supplies others as food with which he supplies others as food with which he supplies others as well as himself. Or will he have nothing well as himself. Or will he have nothing well as himself. Or will he have nothing to do with others and not be at the to do with others and not be at the to do with others and not be at the trouble of producing for them, but trouble of producing for them, but trouble of producing for them, but provide for himself alone a fourth of provide for himself alone a fourth of provide for himself alone a fourth of the food in a fourth of the time?

the food in a fourth of the time? the food in a fourth of the time? And the remaining three fourths of his And the remaining three fourths of his And the remaining three fourths of his time be employed in making a house or a time be employed in making a house or a time be employed in making a house or a coat or a pair of shoes, having no coat or a pair of shoes, having no coat or a pair of shoes, having no partnership with others, but supplying partnership with others, but supplying partnership with others, but supplying himself all his own wants? himself all his own wants? himself all his own wants? Had a man just thought that he should Had a man just thought that he should Had a man just thought that he should aim at producing food only and not at aim at producing food only and not at aim at producing food only and not at producing everything. producing everything. producing everything. Probably, I replied, that would be the Probably, I replied, that would be the Probably, I replied, that would be the better way. And when I hear you say better way. And when I hear you say better way. And when I hear you say this, I am myself reminded that we are this, I am myself reminded that we are this, I am myself reminded that we are not all alike. not all alike. not all alike. There are diversities of natures among There are diversities of natures among There are diversities of natures among us which are adapted to different us which are adapted to different us which are adapted to different occupations. occupations. occupations. Very true. And will you have a work Very true. And will you have a work Very true. And will you have a work better done when the workman has many better done when the workman has many better done when the workman has many occupations or when he has only one? occupations or when he has only one? occupations or when he has only one? When he has only one. When he has only one. When he has only one. Further, there can be no doubt that a Further, there can be no doubt that a Further, there can be no doubt that a work is spoiled when not done at the work is spoiled when not done at the work is spoiled when not done at the right time. right time. right time. No doubt. For business is not disposed No doubt. For business is not disposed No doubt. For business is not disposed to wait until the doer of the business to wait until the doer of the business to wait until the doer of the business is at leisure, but the doer must follow is at leisure, but the doer must follow is at leisure, but the doer must follow up what he is doing and make the up what he is doing and make the up what he is doing and make the business his first object. He must.

business his first object. He must. business his first object. He must. And if so, we must infer that all things And if so, we must infer that all things And if so, we must infer that all things are produced more plentifully and easily are produced more plentifully and easily are produced more plentifully and easily and of a better quality when one man and of a better quality when one man and of a better quality when one man does one thing which is natural to him does one thing which is natural to him does one thing which is natural to him and does it at the right time and leaves and does it at the right time and leaves and does it at the right time and leaves other things. other things. other things. Undoubtedly. Undoubtedly. Undoubtedly. Then more than four citizens will be Then more than four citizens will be Then more than four citizens will be required, for the husbandman will not required, for the husbandman will not required, for the husbandman will not make his own plow or mattock or other make his own plow or mattock or other make his own plow or mattock or other implements of agriculture, if they are implements of agriculture, if they are implements of agriculture, if they are to be good for anything. to be good for anything. to be good for anything. Neither will the builder make his tools, Neither will the builder make his tools, Neither will the builder make his tools, and he too needs many. And in like and he too needs many. And in like and he too needs many. And in like manner, the weaver and the shoemaker. manner, the weaver and the shoemaker. manner, the weaver and the shoemaker. True. Then carpenters and smiths and True. Then carpenters and smiths and True. Then carpenters and smiths and many other artisans will be sharers in many other artisans will be sharers in many other artisans will be sharers in our little state, which is already our little state, which is already our little state, which is already beginning to grow. beginning to grow. beginning to grow. True. True. True. Yet even if we add neatherds, shepherds, Yet even if we add neatherds, shepherds, Yet even if we add neatherds, shepherds, and other herdsmen, in order that our and other herdsmen, in order that our and other herdsmen, in order that our husbandmen may have oxen to plow with, husbandmen may have oxen to plow with, husbandmen may have oxen to plow with, and builders as well as husbandmen may and builders as well as husbandmen may and builders as well as husbandmen may have draft cattle, and carriers and have draft cattle, and carriers and have draft cattle, and carriers and weavers fleeces and hides, still our weavers fleeces and hides, still our weavers fleeces and hides, still our state will not be very large.

state will not be very large. state will not be very large. Well, that is true. Yet neither will it Well, that is true. Yet neither will it Well, that is true. Yet neither will it be a very small state which contains all be a very small state which contains all be a very small state which contains all these. these. these. Then again, there is the situation of Then again, there is the situation of Then again, there is the situation of the city. To find a place where nothing the city. To find a place where nothing the city. To find a place where nothing need be imported is well nigh need be imported is well nigh need be imported is well nigh impossible. impossible. impossible. Impossible. Then there must be another Impossible. Then there must be another Impossible. Then there must be another class of citizens who will bring the class of citizens who will bring the class of citizens who will bring the required supply from another city. required supply from another city. required supply from another city. They must. They must. They must. But if a trader goes empty-handed, But if a trader goes empty-handed, But if a trader goes empty-handed, having nothing which they require, who having nothing which they require, who having nothing which they require, who would supply his need, he will come back would supply his need, he will come back would supply his need, he will come back empty-handed. empty-handed. empty-handed. That is certain. And therefore, what That is certain. And therefore, what That is certain. And therefore, what they produce at home must not be only they produce at home must not be only they produce at home must not be only enough for themselves, but such both in enough for themselves, but such both in enough for themselves, but such both in quantity and quality as to accommodate quantity and quality as to accommodate quantity and quality as to accommodate those from whom their wants are those from whom their wants are those from whom their wants are supplied. Very true. Then more supplied. Very true. Then more supplied. Very true. Then more husbandmen and more artisans will be husbandmen and more artisans will be husbandmen and more artisans will be required. required. required. They will. They will. They will. Not to mention the importers and Not to mention the importers and Not to mention the importers and exporters, who are called merchants. exporters, who are called merchants. exporters, who are called merchants. Yes. Yes. Yes. Then we shall want merchants. Then we shall want merchants. Then we shall want merchants. We shall. And if merchandise is to be We shall. And if merchandise is to be We shall. And if merchandise is to be carried over the sea, skillful sailors carried over the sea, skillful sailors carried over the sea, skillful sailors will also be needed and in considerable will also be needed and in considerable will also be needed and in considerable numbers.

numbers. numbers. Yes, in considerable numbers. Yes, in considerable numbers. Yes, in considerable numbers. Then again, within the city, how will Then again, within the city, how will Then again, within the city, how will they exchange their productions? To they exchange their productions? To they exchange their productions? To secure such an exchange was, as you will secure such an exchange was, as you will secure such an exchange was, as you will remember, one of our principal objects remember, one of our principal objects remember, one of our principal objects when we formed them into a society and when we formed them into a society and when we formed them into a society and constituted a state. Clearly, they will constituted a state. Clearly, they will constituted a state. Clearly, they will buy and sell. buy and sell. buy and sell. Then, they will need a marketplace and a Then, they will need a marketplace and a Then, they will need a marketplace and a money token for purposes of exchange. money token for purposes of exchange. money token for purposes of exchange. Certainly. Certainly. Certainly. Suppose now that a husbandman or an Suppose now that a husbandman or an Suppose now that a husbandman or an artisan brings some production to artisan brings some production to artisan brings some production to market, and he comes at a time when market, and he comes at a time when market, and he comes at a time when there is no one to exchange with him. Is there is no one to exchange with him. Is there is no one to exchange with him. Is he to leave his calling and sit idle in he to leave his calling and sit idle in he to leave his calling and sit idle in the marketplace? the marketplace? the marketplace? Not at all. He will find people there Not at all. He will find people there Not at all. He will find people there who, seeing the want, undertake the who, seeing the want, undertake the who, seeing the want, undertake the office of salesman. In well-ordered office of salesman. In well-ordered office of salesman. In well-ordered states, they are commonly those who are states, they are commonly those who are states, they are commonly those who are the weakest in bodily strength, and the weakest in bodily strength, and the weakest in bodily strength, and therefore of little use for any other therefore of little use for any other therefore of little use for any other purpose. Their duty is to be in the purpose. Their duty is to be in the purpose. Their duty is to be in the market and to give money in exchange for market and to give money in exchange for market and to give money in exchange for goods to those who desire to sell, and goods to those who desire to sell, and goods to those who desire to sell, and to take money from those who desire to to take money from those who desire to to take money from those who desire to buy.

buy. buy. This want, then, creates a class of This want, then, creates a class of This want, then, creates a class of retail traders in our state. Is not retail traders in our state. Is not retail traders in our state. Is not retailer the term which is applied to retailer the term which is applied to retailer the term which is applied to those who sit in the marketplace engaged those who sit in the marketplace engaged those who sit in the marketplace engaged in buying and selling, while those who in buying and selling, while those who in buying and selling, while those who wander from one city to another are wander from one city to another are wander from one city to another are called merchants? Yes, he said. And called merchants? Yes, he said. And called merchants? Yes, he said. And there is another class of servants who there is another class of servants who there is another class of servants who are intellectually hardly on the level are intellectually hardly on the level are intellectually hardly on the level of companionship. of companionship. of companionship. Still, they have plenty of bodily Still, they have plenty of bodily Still, they have plenty of bodily strength for labor, which, accordingly, strength for labor, which, accordingly, strength for labor, which, accordingly, they sell and are called, if I do not they sell and are called, if I do not they sell and are called, if I do not mistake, hirelings. Hire being the name mistake, hirelings. Hire being the name mistake, hirelings. Hire being the name which is given to the price of their which is given to the price of their which is given to the price of their labor. labor. labor. True. Then, hirelings will help to make True. Then, hirelings will help to make True. Then, hirelings will help to make up our population. Yes. And now, up our population. Yes. And now, up our population. Yes. And now, Adamantus, is our state matured and Adamantus, is our state matured and Adamantus, is our state matured and perfected? I think so. perfected? I think so. perfected? I think so. Where then is justice, and where is Where then is justice, and where is Where then is justice, and where is injustice, and in what part of the state injustice, and in what part of the state injustice, and in what part of the state did they spring up? Probably in the did they spring up? Probably in the did they spring up? Probably in the dealings of these citizens with one dealings of these citizens with one dealings of these citizens with one another. I cannot imagine that they are another. I cannot imagine that they are another. I cannot imagine that they are more likely to be found anywhere else.

more likely to be found anywhere else. more likely to be found anywhere else. I dare say that you are right in your I dare say that you are right in your I dare say that you are right in your suggestion, I said. We had better think suggestion, I said. We had better think suggestion, I said. We had better think the matter out and not shrink from the the matter out and not shrink from the the matter out and not shrink from the inquiry. inquiry. inquiry. End of Book Two, Part One. Book Two, Part Two of The Republic Book Two, Part Two of The Republic by Plato. by Plato. by Plato. This LibriVox recording is in the public This LibriVox recording is in the public This LibriVox recording is in the public domain, read by Bob Neufeld. domain, read by Bob Neufeld. domain, read by Bob Neufeld. Let us consider first of all what will Let us consider first of all what will Let us consider first of all what will be their way of life now that we have be their way of life now that we have be their way of life now that we have thus established them. thus established them. thus established them. Will they not produce corn and wine and Will they not produce corn and wine and Will they not produce corn and wine and clothes and shoes and build houses for clothes and shoes and build houses for clothes and shoes and build houses for themselves? And when they are housed, themselves? And when they are housed, themselves? And when they are housed, they will work in summer commonly they will work in summer commonly they will work in summer commonly stripped and barefoot, but in winter stripped and barefoot, but in winter stripped and barefoot, but in winter substantially clothed and shod. substantially clothed and shod. substantially clothed and shod. They will feed on barley meal and flour They will feed on barley meal and flour They will feed on barley meal and flour of wheat, baking and kneading them, of wheat, baking and kneading them, of wheat, baking and kneading them, making noble cakes and loaves.

making noble cakes and loaves. making noble cakes and loaves. These they will serve up on a mat of These they will serve up on a mat of These they will serve up on a mat of reeds or on clean leaves, themselves reeds or on clean leaves, themselves reeds or on clean leaves, themselves reclining the while upon beds strewn reclining the while upon beds strewn reclining the while upon beds strewn with you or myrtle. with you or myrtle. with you or myrtle. And they and their children will feast, And they and their children will feast, And they and their children will feast, drinking the wine which they have made, drinking the wine which they have made, drinking the wine which they have made, wearing garlands on their heads and wearing garlands on their heads and wearing garlands on their heads and hymning the praises of the gods in happy hymning the praises of the gods in happy hymning the praises of the gods in happy converse with one another. And they will converse with one another. And they will converse with one another. And they will take care that their families do not take care that their families do not take care that their families do not exceed their means, having an eye to exceed their means, having an eye to exceed their means, having an eye to poverty or war. poverty or war. poverty or war. But, said Glaucon interposing, you have But, said Glaucon interposing, you have But, said Glaucon interposing, you have not given them a relish to their meal. not given them a relish to their meal. not given them a relish to their meal. True, I replied. I had forgotten. True, I replied. I had forgotten. True, I replied. I had forgotten. Of course, they must have a relish. Salt Of course, they must have a relish. Salt Of course, they must have a relish. Salt and olives and cheese. And they will and olives and cheese. And they will and olives and cheese. And they will boil roots and herbs such as country boil roots and herbs such as country boil roots and herbs such as country people prepare. people prepare. people prepare. For a dessert, we shall give them figs For a dessert, we shall give them figs For a dessert, we shall give them figs and peas and beans, and they will roast and peas and beans, and they will roast and peas and beans, and they will roast myrtle berries and acorns at the fire, myrtle berries and acorns at the fire, myrtle berries and acorns at the fire, drinking in moderation. drinking in moderation. drinking in moderation. And with such a diet, they may be And with such a diet, they may be And with such a diet, they may be expected to live in peace and health to expected to live in peace and health to expected to live in peace and health to a good old age, and bequeath a similar a good old age, and bequeath a similar a good old age, and bequeath a similar life to their children after them.

life to their children after them. life to their children after them. "Yes, Socrates," he said, "and if you "Yes, Socrates," he said, "and if you "Yes, Socrates," he said, "and if you were providing for a city of pigs, how were providing for a city of pigs, how were providing for a city of pigs, how else would you feed the beasts?" else would you feed the beasts?" else would you feed the beasts?" "But what would you have, Glaucon?" I "But what would you have, Glaucon?" I "But what would you have, Glaucon?" I replied. replied. replied. "Why," he said, "you should give them "Why," he said, "you should give them "Why," he said, "you should give them the ordinary conveniences of life. the ordinary conveniences of life. the ordinary conveniences of life. People who are to be comfortable are People who are to be comfortable are People who are to be comfortable are accustomed to lie on sofas and dine off accustomed to lie on sofas and dine off accustomed to lie on sofas and dine off tables, and they should have sauces and tables, and they should have sauces and tables, and they should have sauces and sweets in the modern style." sweets in the modern style." sweets in the modern style." "Yes," I said, "now I understand. The "Yes," I said, "now I understand. The "Yes," I said, "now I understand. The question which you would have me question which you would have me question which you would have me consider is not only how a state, but consider is not only how a state, but consider is not only how a state, but how a luxurious state is created, and how a luxurious state is created, and how a luxurious state is created, and possibly there is no harm in this. For possibly there is no harm in this. For possibly there is no harm in this. For in such a state, we shall be more likely in such a state, we shall be more likely in such a state, we shall be more likely to see how justice and injustice to see how justice and injustice to see how justice and injustice originate." originate." originate." In my opinion, the true and healthy In my opinion, the true and healthy In my opinion, the true and healthy constitution of a state is the one which constitution of a state is the one which constitution of a state is the one which I have described. But if you wish also I have described. But if you wish also I have described. But if you wish also to see a state at fever heat, I have no to see a state at fever heat, I have no to see a state at fever heat, I have no objection. For I suspect that many will objection. For I suspect that many will objection. For I suspect that many will not be satisfied with the simpler way of not be satisfied with the simpler way of not be satisfied with the simpler way of life. They will be for adding sofas and life. They will be for adding sofas and life. They will be for adding sofas and tables and other furniture, also tables and other furniture, also tables and other furniture, also dainties and perfumes and incense and dainties and perfumes and incense and dainties and perfumes and incense and courtesans and cakes, all these not of courtesans and cakes, all these not of courtesans and cakes, all these not of one sort only, but in every variety. We one sort only, but in every variety. We one sort only, but in every variety. We must go beyond the necessaries of which must go beyond the necessaries of which must go beyond the necessaries of which I was at first speaking, such as houses I was at first speaking, such as houses I was at first speaking, such as houses and clothes and shoes. The arts of the and clothes and shoes. The arts of the and clothes and shoes. The arts of the painter and the embroiderer will have to painter and the embroiderer will have to painter and the embroiderer will have to be set in motion, and gold and ivory and be set in motion, and gold and ivory and be set in motion, and gold and ivory and all sorts of materials must be procured.

all sorts of materials must be procured. all sorts of materials must be procured. "True," he said. "True," he said. "True," he said. "And we must enlarge our borders, for "And we must enlarge our borders, for "And we must enlarge our borders, for the original healthy state is no longer the original healthy state is no longer the original healthy state is no longer sufficient. sufficient. sufficient. Now, will the city have to fill and Now, will the city have to fill and Now, will the city have to fill and swell with a multitude of callings which swell with a multitude of callings which swell with a multitude of callings which are not required by any natural want, are not required by any natural want, are not required by any natural want, such as a whole tribe of hunters and such as a whole tribe of hunters and such as a whole tribe of hunters and actors, of whom one large class have to actors, of whom one large class have to actors, of whom one large class have to do with forms and colors. Another will do with forms and colors. Another will do with forms and colors. Another will be the votaries of music, poets and be the votaries of music, poets and be the votaries of music, poets and their attendant train of rhapsodists, their attendant train of rhapsodists, their attendant train of rhapsodists, players, dancers, contractors. players, dancers, contractors. players, dancers, contractors. Also, makers of diverse kinds of Also, makers of diverse kinds of Also, makers of diverse kinds of articles, including women's dresses. And articles, including women's dresses. And articles, including women's dresses. And we shall want more servants. Will not we shall want more servants. Will not we shall want more servants. Will not tutors be also in request, and nurses, tutors be also in request, and nurses, tutors be also in request, and nurses, wet and dry, tire women and barbers, as wet and dry, tire women and barbers, as wet and dry, tire women and barbers, as well as confectioners and cooks, and well as confectioners and cooks, and well as confectioners and cooks, and swineherds, too, who were not needed and swineherds, too, who were not needed and swineherds, too, who were not needed and therefore had no place in the former therefore had no place in the former therefore had no place in the former edition of our state, but are needed edition of our state, but are needed edition of our state, but are needed now? now? now? They must not be forgotten. And there They must not be forgotten. And there They must not be forgotten. And there will be animals of many other kinds if will be animals of many other kinds if will be animals of many other kinds if people eat them.

people eat them. people eat them. Certainly. And living in this way, we Certainly. And living in this way, we Certainly. And living in this way, we shall have much greater need of shall have much greater need of shall have much greater need of physicians than before. physicians than before. physicians than before. Much greater. And the country which was Much greater. And the country which was Much greater. And the country which was enough to support the original enough to support the original enough to support the original inhabitants will be too small now and inhabitants will be too small now and inhabitants will be too small now and not enough. not enough. not enough. Quite true. Quite true. Quite true. Then a slice of our neighbors' land will Then a slice of our neighbors' land will Then a slice of our neighbors' land will be wanted by us for pasture and tillage, be wanted by us for pasture and tillage, be wanted by us for pasture and tillage, and they will want a slice of ours if, and they will want a slice of ours if, and they will want a slice of ours if, like ourselves, they exceed the limit of like ourselves, they exceed the limit of like ourselves, they exceed the limit of necessity and give themselves up to the necessity and give themselves up to the necessity and give themselves up to the unlimited accumulation of wealth. unlimited accumulation of wealth. unlimited accumulation of wealth. That Socrates will be inevitable. That Socrates will be inevitable. That Socrates will be inevitable. And so we shall go to war, Glaucon, And so we shall go to war, Glaucon, And so we shall go to war, Glaucon, shall we not? shall we not? shall we not? Most certainly, he replied. Most certainly, he replied. Most certainly, he replied. Then, without determining as yet whether Then, without determining as yet whether Then, without determining as yet whether war does good or harm, this much we may war does good or harm, this much we may war does good or harm, this much we may affirm, that now we have discovered war affirm, that now we have discovered war affirm, that now we have discovered war to be derived from causes which are also to be derived from causes which are also to be derived from causes which are also the causes of almost all the evils in the causes of almost all the evils in the causes of almost all the evils in states, private as well as public.

states, private as well as public. states, private as well as public. Undoubtedly. And our state must once Undoubtedly. And our state must once Undoubtedly. And our state must once more enlarge, and this time the more enlarge, and this time the more enlarge, and this time the enlargement will be nothing short of a enlargement will be nothing short of a enlargement will be nothing short of a whole army, which will have to go out whole army, which will have to go out whole army, which will have to go out and fight with the invaders for all that and fight with the invaders for all that and fight with the invaders for all that we have, as well as for the things and we have, as well as for the things and we have, as well as for the things and persons whom we were describing above. persons whom we were describing above. persons whom we were describing above. Why, he said, are they not capable of Why, he said, are they not capable of Why, he said, are they not capable of defending themselves? defending themselves? defending themselves? No, I said, not if we were right in the No, I said, not if we were right in the No, I said, not if we were right in the principle which was acknowledged by all principle which was acknowledged by all principle which was acknowledged by all of us when we were framing the state. of us when we were framing the state. of us when we were framing the state. The principle, as you will remember, was The principle, as you will remember, was The principle, as you will remember, was that one man cannot practice many arts that one man cannot practice many arts that one man cannot practice many arts with success. with success. with success. Very true, he said. But is not war an Very true, he said. But is not war an Very true, he said. But is not war an art? Certainly. And an art requiring as art? Certainly. And an art requiring as art? Certainly. And an art requiring as much attention as shoemaking? much attention as shoemaking? much attention as shoemaking? Quite true. And the shoemaker was not Quite true. And the shoemaker was not Quite true. And the shoemaker was not allowed by us to be a husbandman, or a allowed by us to be a husbandman, or a allowed by us to be a husbandman, or a weaver, or a builder, in order that we weaver, or a builder, in order that we weaver, or a builder, in order that we might have our shoes well made. But to might have our shoes well made. But to might have our shoes well made. But to him, and to every other worker, was him, and to every other worker, was him, and to every other worker, was assigned one work for which he was by assigned one work for which he was by assigned one work for which he was by nature fitted, and at that he was to nature fitted, and at that he was to nature fitted, and at that he was to continue working all his livelong, and continue working all his livelong, and continue working all his livelong, and at no other.

at no other. at no other. He was not to let opportunities slip, He was not to let opportunities slip, He was not to let opportunities slip, and then he would become a good workman. and then he would become a good workman. and then he would become a good workman. Ah, nothing can be more important than Ah, nothing can be more important than Ah, nothing can be more important than that the work of a soldier should be that the work of a soldier should be that the work of a soldier should be well done. well done. well done. But is war an art so easily acquired But is war an art so easily acquired But is war an art so easily acquired that a man may be a warrior who is also that a man may be a warrior who is also that a man may be a warrior who is also a husbandman, or shoemaker, or other a husbandman, or shoemaker, or other a husbandman, or shoemaker, or other artisan? Although no one in the world artisan? Although no one in the world artisan? Although no one in the world would be a good dice or draught player would be a good dice or draught player would be a good dice or draught player who merely took up the game as a who merely took up the game as a who merely took up the game as a recreation, and had not from his recreation, and had not from his recreation, and had not from his earliest years devoted himself to this earliest years devoted himself to this earliest years devoted himself to this and nothing else. and nothing else. and nothing else. No tools will make a man a skilled No tools will make a man a skilled No tools will make a man a skilled workman, or a master of defense, nor be workman, or a master of defense, nor be workman, or a master of defense, nor be of any use to him who has not learned of any use to him who has not learned of any use to him who has not learned how to handle them, and has never how to handle them, and has never how to handle them, and has never bestowed any attention upon them. How bestowed any attention upon them. How bestowed any attention upon them. How then will he who takes up a shield or then will he who takes up a shield or then will he who takes up a shield or other implement of war become a good other implement of war become a good other implement of war become a good fighter all in a day, whether with heavy fighter all in a day, whether with heavy fighter all in a day, whether with heavy armed or any other kind of troops. armed or any other kind of troops. armed or any other kind of troops. "Yes," he said, "the tools which would "Yes," he said, "the tools which would "Yes," he said, "the tools which would teach men their own use would be beyond teach men their own use would be beyond teach men their own use would be beyond price." "And the higher the duties of price." "And the higher the duties of price." "And the higher the duties of the guardian," I said, "the more time the guardian," I said, "the more time the guardian," I said, "the more time and skill and art and application will and skill and art and application will and skill and art and application will be needed by him?" "No doubt," he be needed by him?" "No doubt," he be needed by him?" "No doubt," he replied.

replied. replied. "Will he not also require natural "Will he not also require natural "Will he not also require natural aptitude for his calling?" aptitude for his calling?" aptitude for his calling?" "Certainly." "Then it will be our duty "Certainly." "Then it will be our duty "Certainly." "Then it will be our duty to select, if we can, natures which are to select, if we can, natures which are to select, if we can, natures which are fitted for the task of guarding the fitted for the task of guarding the fitted for the task of guarding the city." city." city." "It will." "It will." "It will." "And the selection will be no easy "And the selection will be no easy "And the selection will be no easy manner," I said, "but we must be brave manner," I said, "but we must be brave manner," I said, "but we must be brave and do our best." "We must." and do our best." "We must." and do our best." "We must." "Is not the noble youth very like a "Is not the noble youth very like a "Is not the noble youth very like a well-bred dog in respecting of guarding well-bred dog in respecting of guarding well-bred dog in respecting of guarding and watching?" and watching?" and watching?" "What do you mean?" "What do you mean?" "What do you mean?" "I mean that both of them ought to be "I mean that both of them ought to be "I mean that both of them ought to be quick to see and swift to overtake the quick to see and swift to overtake the quick to see and swift to overtake the enemy when they see him, and strong, enemy when they see him, and strong, enemy when they see him, and strong, too, if, when they have caught him, they too, if, when they have caught him, they too, if, when they have caught him, they have to fight with him." have to fight with him." have to fight with him." "All these qualities," he replied, "will "All these qualities," he replied, "will "All these qualities," he replied, "will certainly be required by them." certainly be required by them." certainly be required by them." "Well, and your guardian must be brave "Well, and your guardian must be brave "Well, and your guardian must be brave if he is to fight well." "Certainly." if he is to fight well." "Certainly." if he is to fight well." "Certainly." "And is he likely to be brave who has no "And is he likely to be brave who has no "And is he likely to be brave who has no spirit, whether horse or dog or any spirit, whether horse or dog or any spirit, whether horse or dog or any other animal? Have you never observed other animal? Have you never observed other animal? Have you never observed how invincible and unconquerable is how invincible and unconquerable is how invincible and unconquerable is spirit, and how the presence of it makes spirit, and how the presence of it makes spirit, and how the presence of it makes the soul of any creature to be the soul of any creature to be the soul of any creature to be absolutely fearless and indomitable?"

absolutely fearless and indomitable?" absolutely fearless and indomitable?" "I have." "Then now we have a clear "I have." "Then now we have a clear "I have." "Then now we have a clear notion of the bodily qualities which are notion of the bodily qualities which are notion of the bodily qualities which are required in the guardian." required in the guardian." required in the guardian." "True, and also of the mental ones. His "True, and also of the mental ones. His "True, and also of the mental ones. His soul is to be full of spirit." "Yes." soul is to be full of spirit." "Yes." soul is to be full of spirit." "Yes." "But are not these spirited natures apt "But are not these spirited natures apt "But are not these spirited natures apt to be savage with one another and with to be savage with one another and with to be savage with one another and with everybody else?" everybody else?" everybody else?" "A difficulty by no means easy to "A difficulty by no means easy to "A difficulty by no means easy to overcome," he replied. overcome," he replied. overcome," he replied. Whereas, I said, they ought to be Whereas, I said, they ought to be Whereas, I said, they ought to be dangerous to their enemies and gentle to dangerous to their enemies and gentle to dangerous to their enemies and gentle to their friends. If not, they will destroy their friends. If not, they will destroy their friends. If not, they will destroy themselves without waiting for their themselves without waiting for their themselves without waiting for their enemies to destroy them. True, he said. enemies to destroy them. True, he said. enemies to destroy them. True, he said. What is to be done then, I said. How What is to be done then, I said. How What is to be done then, I said. How shall we find a gentle nature which has shall we find a gentle nature which has shall we find a gentle nature which has also a great spirit? For the one is the also a great spirit? For the one is the also a great spirit? For the one is the contradiction of the other. contradiction of the other. contradiction of the other. True. He will not be a good guardian who True. He will not be a good guardian who True. He will not be a good guardian who is wanting in either of these two is wanting in either of these two is wanting in either of these two qualities, and yet the combination of qualities, and yet the combination of qualities, and yet the combination of them appears to be impossible. And hence them appears to be impossible. And hence them appears to be impossible. And hence we must infer that to be a good guardian we must infer that to be a good guardian we must infer that to be a good guardian is impossible.

is impossible. is impossible. I am afraid that what you say is true, I am afraid that what you say is true, I am afraid that what you say is true, he replied. he replied. he replied. Here, feeling perplexed, I began to Here, feeling perplexed, I began to Here, feeling perplexed, I began to think over what had preceded. think over what had preceded. think over what had preceded. My friend, I said, no wonder that we are My friend, I said, no wonder that we are My friend, I said, no wonder that we are in a perplexity. in a perplexity. in a perplexity. For we have lost sight of the image For we have lost sight of the image For we have lost sight of the image which we had before us. which we had before us. which we had before us. What do you mean? He said. I mean to say What do you mean? He said. I mean to say What do you mean? He said. I mean to say that there do exist natures gifted with that there do exist natures gifted with that there do exist natures gifted with these opposite qualities. these opposite qualities. these opposite qualities. And where do you find them? And where do you find them? And where do you find them? Many animals, I replied, furnish Many animals, I replied, furnish Many animals, I replied, furnish examples of them. examples of them. examples of them. Our friend the dog is a very good one. Our friend the dog is a very good one. Our friend the dog is a very good one. You know that well-bred dogs are You know that well-bred dogs are You know that well-bred dogs are perfectly gentle to their familiars and perfectly gentle to their familiars and perfectly gentle to their familiars and acquaintances, and the reverse to acquaintances, and the reverse to acquaintances, and the reverse to strangers. strangers. strangers. Yes, I know. Yes, I know. Yes, I know. Then there is nothing impossible or out Then there is nothing impossible or out Then there is nothing impossible or out of order of nature in our finding a of order of nature in our finding a of order of nature in our finding a guardian who has a similar combination guardian who has a similar combination guardian who has a similar combination of qualities. of qualities. of qualities. Certainly not. Certainly not. Certainly not. What? Would not he who is fitted to be a What? Would not he who is fitted to be a What? Would not he who is fitted to be a guardian, besides the spirited nature, guardian, besides the spirited nature, guardian, besides the spirited nature, need to have the qualities of a need to have the qualities of a need to have the qualities of a philosopher?

philosopher? philosopher? I do not apprehend your meaning. The I do not apprehend your meaning. The I do not apprehend your meaning. The trait of which I am speaking, I replied, trait of which I am speaking, I replied, trait of which I am speaking, I replied, may also be seen in the dog and is may also be seen in the dog and is may also be seen in the dog and is remarkable in the animal. remarkable in the animal. remarkable in the animal. What trait? What trait? What trait? Why, a dog, whenever he sees a stranger, Why, a dog, whenever he sees a stranger, Why, a dog, whenever he sees a stranger, is angry. When an acquaintance, he is angry. When an acquaintance, he is angry. When an acquaintance, he welcomes him. Although the one has never welcomes him. Although the one has never welcomes him. Although the one has never done him any harm, nor the other any done him any harm, nor the other any done him any harm, nor the other any good. Did this never strike you as good. Did this never strike you as good. Did this never strike you as curious? curious? curious? The matter never struck me before, but I The matter never struck me before, but I The matter never struck me before, but I quite recognize the truth of your quite recognize the truth of your quite recognize the truth of your remark. And surely this instinct of the remark. And surely this instinct of the remark. And surely this instinct of the dog is very charming. Your dog is a true dog is very charming. Your dog is a true dog is very charming. Your dog is a true philosopher. philosopher. philosopher. Why? Why? Why? Why? Because he distinguishes the face Why? Because he distinguishes the face Why? Because he distinguishes the face of a friend and of an enemy only by the of a friend and of an enemy only by the of a friend and of an enemy only by the criterion of knowing and not knowing. criterion of knowing and not knowing. criterion of knowing and not knowing. And must not an animal be a lover of And must not an animal be a lover of And must not an animal be a lover of learning who determines what he likes learning who determines what he likes learning who determines what he likes and dislikes by the test of knowledge and dislikes by the test of knowledge and dislikes by the test of knowledge and ignorance? and ignorance? and ignorance? Most assuredly. And is not the love of Most assuredly. And is not the love of Most assuredly. And is not the love of learning the love of wisdom, which is learning the love of wisdom, which is learning the love of wisdom, which is philosophy? philosophy? philosophy? They are the same, he replied.

They are the same, he replied. They are the same, he replied. And may we not say confidently of man And may we not say confidently of man And may we not say confidently of man also that he who is likely to be gentle also that he who is likely to be gentle also that he who is likely to be gentle to his friends and acquaintances must by to his friends and acquaintances must by to his friends and acquaintances must by nature be a lover of wisdom and nature be a lover of wisdom and nature be a lover of wisdom and knowledge? knowledge? knowledge? That we may safely affirm. That we may safely affirm. That we may safely affirm. Then he who has to be a really good and Then he who has to be a really good and Then he who has to be a really good and noble guardian of the state will require noble guardian of the state will require noble guardian of the state will require to unite in himself philosophy and to unite in himself philosophy and to unite in himself philosophy and spirit and swiftness and strength. spirit and swiftness and strength. spirit and swiftness and strength. Undoubtedly. Undoubtedly. Undoubtedly. Then we have found the desired natures. Then we have found the desired natures. Then we have found the desired natures. And now that we have found them, how are And now that we have found them, how are And now that we have found them, how are they to be reared and educated? Is not they to be reared and educated? Is not they to be reared and educated? Is not this an inquiry which may be expected to this an inquiry which may be expected to this an inquiry which may be expected to throw light on the greater inquiry which throw light on the greater inquiry which throw light on the greater inquiry which is our final end. How do justice and is our final end. How do justice and is our final end. How do justice and injustice grow up in states? For we do injustice grow up in states? For we do injustice grow up in states? For we do not want either to omit what is to the not want either to omit what is to the not want either to omit what is to the point or to draw out the argument to an point or to draw out the argument to an point or to draw out the argument to an inconvenient length. inconvenient length. inconvenient length. Adeimantus thought that the inquiry Adeimantus thought that the inquiry Adeimantus thought that the inquiry would be of great service to us. would be of great service to us. would be of great service to us. Then, I said, my dear friend, the task Then, I said, my dear friend, the task Then, I said, my dear friend, the task must not be given up, even if somewhat must not be given up, even if somewhat must not be given up, even if somewhat long.

long. long. Certainly not. Certainly not. Certainly not. Come then and let us pass a leisure hour Come then and let us pass a leisure hour Come then and let us pass a leisure hour in storytelling and our story shall be in storytelling and our story shall be in storytelling and our story shall be the education of our heroes. By all the education of our heroes. By all the education of our heroes. By all means. means. means. And what shall be their education? Can And what shall be their education? Can And what shall be their education? Can we find a better than the traditional we find a better than the traditional we find a better than the traditional sort and this has two divisions, sort and this has two divisions, sort and this has two divisions, gymnastic for the body and music for the gymnastic for the body and music for the gymnastic for the body and music for the soul. True. soul. True. soul. True. Shall we begin education with music and Shall we begin education with music and Shall we begin education with music and go on to gymnastics afterwards? go on to gymnastics afterwards? go on to gymnastics afterwards? By all means. By all means. By all means. And when you speak of music, do you And when you speak of music, do you And when you speak of music, do you include literature or not? I do. include literature or not? I do. include literature or not? I do. And literature may be either true or And literature may be either true or And literature may be either true or false? Yes. false? Yes. false? Yes. And the young shall be trained in both And the young shall be trained in both And the young shall be trained in both kinds and we begin with the false? kinds and we begin with the false? kinds and we begin with the false? I do not understand your meaning, he I do not understand your meaning, he I do not understand your meaning, he said. said. said. You know, I said, that we begin by You know, I said, that we begin by You know, I said, that we begin by telling children stories which, though telling children stories which, though telling children stories which, though not wholly destitute of truth, are in not wholly destitute of truth, are in not wholly destitute of truth, are in the main fictitious. And these stories the main fictitious. And these stories the main fictitious. And these stories are told them when they are not of an are told them when they are not of an are told them when they are not of an age to learn gymnastics.

age to learn gymnastics. age to learn gymnastics. Very true. That was my meaning when I Very true. That was my meaning when I Very true. That was my meaning when I said that we must teach music before said that we must teach music before said that we must teach music before gymnastics. Quite right, he said. gymnastics. Quite right, he said. gymnastics. Quite right, he said. You know also that the beginning is the You know also that the beginning is the You know also that the beginning is the most important part of any work, most important part of any work, most important part of any work, especially in the case of a young and especially in the case of a young and especially in the case of a young and tender thing for that is the time at tender thing for that is the time at tender thing for that is the time at which the character is being formed and which the character is being formed and which the character is being formed and the desired impression is more readily the desired impression is more readily the desired impression is more readily taken. taken. taken. Quite true. And shall we just carelessly Quite true. And shall we just carelessly Quite true. And shall we just carelessly allow children to hear any casual tales allow children to hear any casual tales allow children to hear any casual tales which may be devised by casual persons which may be devised by casual persons which may be devised by casual persons and to receive into their minds ideas and to receive into their minds ideas and to receive into their minds ideas for the most part the very opposite of for the most part the very opposite of for the most part the very opposite of those which we should wish them to have those which we should wish them to have those which we should wish them to have when they are grown up. We cannot. when they are grown up. We cannot. when they are grown up. We cannot. Then the first thing would be to Then the first thing would be to Then the first thing would be to establish a censorship of the writers of establish a censorship of the writers of establish a censorship of the writers of fiction and let the censors receive any fiction and let the censors receive any fiction and let the censors receive any tale of fiction which is good and reject tale of fiction which is good and reject tale of fiction which is good and reject the bad. And we will desire mothers and the bad. And we will desire mothers and the bad. And we will desire mothers and nurses to tell their children the nurses to tell their children the nurses to tell their children the authorized ones only. authorized ones only. authorized ones only. Let them fashion the mind with such Let them fashion the mind with such Let them fashion the mind with such tales, even more fondly than they mold tales, even more fondly than they mold tales, even more fondly than they mold the body with their hands.

the body with their hands. the body with their hands. But most of those which are now in use But most of those which are now in use But most of those which are now in use must be discarded. must be discarded. must be discarded. Of what tales are you speaking? He said. Of what tales are you speaking? He said. Of what tales are you speaking? He said. You may find a model of the lesser in You may find a model of the lesser in You may find a model of the lesser in the greater, I said, for they are the greater, I said, for they are the greater, I said, for they are necessarily of the same type, and there necessarily of the same type, and there necessarily of the same type, and there is the same spirit in both of them. Very is the same spirit in both of them. Very is the same spirit in both of them. Very likely, he replied, but I do not as yet likely, he replied, but I do not as yet likely, he replied, but I do not as yet know what you would term the greater. know what you would term the greater. know what you would term the greater. Those, I said, which are narrated by Those, I said, which are narrated by Those, I said, which are narrated by Homer and Hesiod and the rest of the Homer and Hesiod and the rest of the Homer and Hesiod and the rest of the poets which have ever been the great poets which have ever been the great poets which have ever been the great storytellers of mankind. storytellers of mankind. storytellers of mankind. But which stories do you mean? He said, But which stories do you mean? He said, But which stories do you mean? He said, and what fault do you find with them? and what fault do you find with them? and what fault do you find with them? A fault which is most serious, I said. A fault which is most serious, I said. A fault which is most serious, I said. The fault of telling a lie, and what is The fault of telling a lie, and what is The fault of telling a lie, and what is more, a bad lie. more, a bad lie. more, a bad lie. But when is this fault committed? But when is this fault committed? But when is this fault committed? Whenever an erroneous representation is Whenever an erroneous representation is Whenever an erroneous representation is made of the nature of gods and heroes, made of the nature of gods and heroes, made of the nature of gods and heroes, as when a painter paints a portrait not as when a painter paints a portrait not as when a painter paints a portrait not having the shadow of a likeness to the having the shadow of a likeness to the having the shadow of a likeness to the original.

original. original. Yes, he said, that sort of thing is Yes, he said, that sort of thing is Yes, he said, that sort of thing is certainly very blamable, but what are certainly very blamable, but what are certainly very blamable, but what are the stories which you mean? the stories which you mean? the stories which you mean? Well, first of all, I said, there was Well, first of all, I said, there was Well, first of all, I said, there was that greatest of all lies in high places that greatest of all lies in high places that greatest of all lies in high places which the poet told to Uranus, which was which the poet told to Uranus, which was which the poet told to Uranus, which was a bad lie, too. I mean what Hesiod says a bad lie, too. I mean what Hesiod says a bad lie, too. I mean what Hesiod says that Uranus did, and how Cronus that Uranus did, and how Cronus that Uranus did, and how Cronus retaliated on him. retaliated on him. retaliated on him. The doings of Cronus and the sufferings The doings of Cronus and the sufferings The doings of Cronus and the sufferings which in turn his son inflicted upon which in turn his son inflicted upon which in turn his son inflicted upon him, even if they were true, ought him, even if they were true, ought him, even if they were true, ought certainly not to be lightly told to certainly not to be lightly told to certainly not to be lightly told to young and thoughtless persons. young and thoughtless persons. young and thoughtless persons. If possible, they had better be buried If possible, they had better be buried If possible, they had better be buried in silence. in silence. in silence. But if there is an absolute necessity But if there is an absolute necessity But if there is an absolute necessity for their mention, a chosen few might for their mention, a chosen few might for their mention, a chosen few might hear them in a mystery, and they should hear them in a mystery, and they should hear them in a mystery, and they should sacrifice not a common pig, but some sacrifice not a common pig, but some sacrifice not a common pig, but some huge and unprocurable victim. And then, huge and unprocurable victim. And then, huge and unprocurable victim. And then, the numbers of the hearers will be very the numbers of the hearers will be very the numbers of the hearers will be very few indeed. few indeed. few indeed. "Why, yes," said he, "those stories are "Why, yes," said he, "those stories are "Why, yes," said he, "those stories are extremely objectionable." extremely objectionable." extremely objectionable." Yes, Adeimantus, they are stories not to Yes, Adeimantus, they are stories not to Yes, Adeimantus, they are stories not to be repeated in our state. The young man be repeated in our state. The young man be repeated in our state. The young man should not be told that in committing should not be told that in committing should not be told that in committing the worst of crimes, he is far from the worst of crimes, he is far from the worst of crimes, he is far from doing anything outrageous, and that even doing anything outrageous, and that even doing anything outrageous, and that even if he chastises his father when he does if he chastises his father when he does if he chastises his father when he does wrong in whatever manner, he will only wrong in whatever manner, he will only wrong in whatever manner, he will only be following the example of the first be following the example of the first be following the example of the first and greatest among the gods.

and greatest among the gods. and greatest among the gods. "I certainly agree with you," he said. "I certainly agree with you," he said. "I certainly agree with you," he said. "In my opinion, those stories are quite "In my opinion, those stories are quite "In my opinion, those stories are quite unfit to be repeated." unfit to be repeated." unfit to be repeated." Neither, if we mean our future guardians Neither, if we mean our future guardians Neither, if we mean our future guardians to regard the habit of quarreling among to regard the habit of quarreling among to regard the habit of quarreling among themselves as of all things the basest, themselves as of all things the basest, themselves as of all things the basest, should any word be said to them of the should any word be said to them of the should any word be said to them of the wars in heaven, and of the plots and wars in heaven, and of the plots and wars in heaven, and of the plots and fightings of the gods against one fightings of the gods against one fightings of the gods against one another, for they are not true. No, we another, for they are not true. No, we another, for they are not true. No, we shall never mention the battles of the shall never mention the battles of the shall never mention the battles of the giants, or let them be embroidered on giants, or let them be embroidered on giants, or let them be embroidered on garments, and we shall be silent about garments, and we shall be silent about garments, and we shall be silent about the innumerable other quarrels of gods the innumerable other quarrels of gods the innumerable other quarrels of gods and heroes with their friends and and heroes with their friends and and heroes with their friends and relatives. relatives. relatives. If they would only believe us, we would If they would only believe us, we would If they would only believe us, we would tell them that quarreling is unholy, and tell them that quarreling is unholy, and tell them that quarreling is unholy, and that never up to this time has there that never up to this time has there that never up to this time has there been any quarrel between citizens. been any quarrel between citizens. been any quarrel between citizens. This is what old men and old women This is what old men and old women This is what old men and old women should begin by telling children, and should begin by telling children, and should begin by telling children, and when they grow up, the poets also should when they grow up, the poets also should when they grow up, the poets also should be told to compose for them in a similar be told to compose for them in a similar be told to compose for them in a similar spirit. spirit. spirit. But the narrative of Hephaestus binding But the narrative of Hephaestus binding But the narrative of Hephaestus binding Hera his mother, or how on another Hera his mother, or how on another Hera his mother, or how on another occasion Zeus sent him flying for taking occasion Zeus sent him flying for taking occasion Zeus sent him flying for taking her part when she was being beaten, and her part when she was being beaten, and her part when she was being beaten, and all the battles of the gods in Homer, all the battles of the gods in Homer, all the battles of the gods in Homer, these tales must not be admitted into these tales must not be admitted into these tales must not be admitted into our state, whether they are supposed to our state, whether they are supposed to our state, whether they are supposed to have an allegorical meaning or not.

have an allegorical meaning or not. have an allegorical meaning or not. For a young person cannot judge what is For a young person cannot judge what is For a young person cannot judge what is allegorical and what is liberal. allegorical and what is liberal. allegorical and what is liberal. Anything that he receives into his mind Anything that he receives into his mind Anything that he receives into his mind at that age is likely to become at that age is likely to become at that age is likely to become indelible and unalterable. indelible and unalterable. indelible and unalterable. And therefore, it is most important that And therefore, it is most important that And therefore, it is most important that the tales which the young first hear the tales which the young first hear the tales which the young first hear should be models of virtuous thoughts. should be models of virtuous thoughts. should be models of virtuous thoughts. "There you are right." he replied. "But "There you are right." he replied. "But "There you are right." he replied. "But if anyone asks where are such models to if anyone asks where are such models to if anyone asks where are such models to be found, and of what tales are you be found, and of what tales are you be found, and of what tales are you speaking, how shall you answer him?" speaking, how shall you answer him?" speaking, how shall you answer him?" I said to him, "You and I, Adamantus, at I said to him, "You and I, Adamantus, at I said to him, "You and I, Adamantus, at this point are not poets, but founders this point are not poets, but founders this point are not poets, but founders of a state. of a state. of a state. Now, the founders of a state ought to Now, the founders of a state ought to Now, the founders of a state ought to know the general forms in which poets know the general forms in which poets know the general forms in which poets should cast their tales, and the limits should cast their tales, and the limits should cast their tales, and the limits which must be observed by them, but to which must be observed by them, but to which must be observed by them, but to make the tales is not their business." make the tales is not their business." make the tales is not their business." "Very true." he said. "But what are "Very true." he said. "But what are "Very true." he said. "But what are these forms of theology which you mean?" these forms of theology which you mean?" these forms of theology which you mean?" "Something of this kind." I replied. "Something of this kind." I replied. "Something of this kind." I replied. "God is always to be represented as he "God is always to be represented as he "God is always to be represented as he truly is, whatever be the sort of truly is, whatever be the sort of truly is, whatever be the sort of poetry, epic, lyric, or tragic, in which poetry, epic, lyric, or tragic, in which poetry, epic, lyric, or tragic, in which the representation is given."

the representation is given." the representation is given." "All right. And is he not truly good, "All right. And is he not truly good, "All right. And is he not truly good, and must he not be represented as such?" and must he not be represented as such?" and must he not be represented as such?" "Certainly. And no good thing is "Certainly. And no good thing is "Certainly. And no good thing is hurtful." "No, indeed." "And that which hurtful." "No, indeed." "And that which hurtful." "No, indeed." "And that which is not hurtful hurts not." "Certainly is not hurtful hurts not." "Certainly is not hurtful hurts not." "Certainly not. And that which hurts not does no not. And that which hurts not does no not. And that which hurts not does no evil." "No. And can that which does no evil." "No. And can that which does no evil." "No. And can that which does no evil be a cause of evil?" "Impossible. evil be a cause of evil?" "Impossible. evil be a cause of evil?" "Impossible. And the good is advantageous." "Yes. And And the good is advantageous." "Yes. And And the good is advantageous." "Yes. And therefore the cause of well-being?" therefore the cause of well-being?" therefore the cause of well-being?" "Yes." "It follows therefore that the "Yes." "It follows therefore that the "Yes." "It follows therefore that the good is not the cause of all things, but good is not the cause of all things, but good is not the cause of all things, but of the good only." "Assuredly." of the good only." "Assuredly." of the good only." "Assuredly." "Then God, if he be good, is not the "Then God, if he be good, is not the "Then God, if he be good, is not the author of all things, as the many author of all things, as the many author of all things, as the many assert, but he is the cause of a few assert, but he is the cause of a few assert, but he is the cause of a few things only, and not of most things that things only, and not of most things that things only, and not of most things that occur to men. occur to men. occur to men. For few are the goods of human life, and For few are the goods of human life, and For few are the goods of human life, and many are the evils, and the good is to many are the evils, and the good is to many are the evils, and the good is to be attributed to God alone. Of the be attributed to God alone. Of the be attributed to God alone. Of the evils, the causes are to be sought evils, the causes are to be sought evils, the causes are to be sought elsewhere, and not in him.

elsewhere, and not in him. elsewhere, and not in him. "That appears to me to be most true," he "That appears to me to be most true," he "That appears to me to be most true," he said. said. said. Then we must not listen to Homer, or to Then we must not listen to Homer, or to Then we must not listen to Homer, or to any other poet who is guilty of the any other poet who is guilty of the any other poet who is guilty of the folly of saying that two casks lie at folly of saying that two casks lie at folly of saying that two casks lie at the threshold of Zeus, full of lots, one the threshold of Zeus, full of lots, one the threshold of Zeus, full of lots, one of good, the other of evil lots. of good, the other of evil lots. of good, the other of evil lots. And that he to whom Zeus gives a mixture And that he to whom Zeus gives a mixture And that he to whom Zeus gives a mixture of the two, sometimes meets with ill of the two, sometimes meets with ill of the two, sometimes meets with ill fortune, at other times with good. But fortune, at other times with good. But fortune, at other times with good. But to he to whom is given the cup of to he to whom is given the cup of to he to whom is given the cup of unmingled ill, him wild hunger drives unmingled ill, him wild hunger drives unmingled ill, him wild hunger drives over the beauteous earth. over the beauteous earth. over the beauteous earth. And again, Zeus, who is the dispenser of And again, Zeus, who is the dispenser of And again, Zeus, who is the dispenser of good and evil to us. good and evil to us. good and evil to us. And if anyone asserts that the violation And if anyone asserts that the violation And if anyone asserts that the violation of oaths and treaties, which was really of oaths and treaties, which was really of oaths and treaties, which was really the work of Pandarus, was brought about the work of Pandarus, was brought about the work of Pandarus, was brought about by Athene and Zeus, or that the strife by Athene and Zeus, or that the strife by Athene and Zeus, or that the strife and contention of the gods was and contention of the gods was and contention of the gods was instigated by Themis and Zeus, he shall instigated by Themis and Zeus, he shall instigated by Themis and Zeus, he shall not have our approval. Neither will we not have our approval. Neither will we not have our approval. Neither will we allow our young men to hear the words of allow our young men to hear the words of allow our young men to hear the words of Aeschylus, that God plants guilt among Aeschylus, that God plants guilt among Aeschylus, that God plants guilt among men when he desires utterly to destroy a men when he desires utterly to destroy a men when he desires utterly to destroy a house.

house. house. And if a poet writes of the sufferings And if a poet writes of the sufferings And if a poet writes of the sufferings of Niobe, the the subject of the tragedy of Niobe, the the subject of the tragedy of Niobe, the the subject of the tragedy in which these iambic verses occur, or in which these iambic verses occur, or in which these iambic verses occur, or of the house of Pelops, or of the Trojan of the house of Pelops, or of the Trojan of the house of Pelops, or of the Trojan war, or any similar theme, either we war, or any similar theme, either we war, or any similar theme, either we must not permit him to say that these must not permit him to say that these must not permit him to say that these are not the works of God, or if they are are not the works of God, or if they are are not the works of God, or if they are God, he must devise some explanation of God, he must devise some explanation of God, he must devise some explanation of them such as we are seeking. them such as we are seeking. them such as we are seeking. He must say that God did what was just He must say that God did what was just He must say that God did what was just and right, and they were the better for and right, and they were the better for and right, and they were the better for being punished. being punished. being punished. But that those who are punished are But that those who are punished are But that those who are punished are miserable, and that God is the author of miserable, and that God is the author of miserable, and that God is the author of their misery, the poet is not to be their misery, the poet is not to be their misery, the poet is not to be permitted to say. permitted to say. permitted to say. Though he may say that the wicked are Though he may say that the wicked are Though he may say that the wicked are miserable because they require to be miserable because they require to be miserable because they require to be punished and are benefited by receiving punished and are benefited by receiving punished and are benefited by receiving punishment from God. But, that God being punishment from God. But, that God being punishment from God. But, that God being good is the author of evil to anyone is good is the author of evil to anyone is good is the author of evil to anyone is to be strenuously denied and not to be to be strenuously denied and not to be to be strenuously denied and not to be said or sung or heard in verse or prose said or sung or heard in verse or prose said or sung or heard in verse or prose by anyone, whether old or young, in any by anyone, whether old or young, in any by anyone, whether old or young, in any well-ordered commonwealth.

well-ordered commonwealth. well-ordered commonwealth. Such a fiction is suicidal, ruinous, Such a fiction is suicidal, ruinous, Such a fiction is suicidal, ruinous, impious. impious. impious. I agree with you, he replied, and I'm I agree with you, he replied, and I'm I agree with you, he replied, and I'm ready to give my assent to the law. ready to give my assent to the law. ready to give my assent to the law. Let this, then, be one of our rules and Let this, then, be one of our rules and Let this, then, be one of our rules and principles concerning the gods to which principles concerning the gods to which principles concerning the gods to which our poets and reciters will be expected our poets and reciters will be expected our poets and reciters will be expected to conform. That God is not the author to conform. That God is not the author to conform. That God is not the author of all things, but of good only. of all things, but of good only. of all things, but of good only. That will do, he said. That will do, he said. That will do, he said. And what do you think of a second And what do you think of a second And what do you think of a second principle? Shall I ask you whether God principle? Shall I ask you whether God principle? Shall I ask you whether God is a magician and of a nature to appear is a magician and of a nature to appear is a magician and of a nature to appear insidiously now in one shape and now in insidiously now in one shape and now in insidiously now in one shape and now in another, sometimes himself changing and another, sometimes himself changing and another, sometimes himself changing and passing into many forms, sometimes passing into many forms, sometimes passing into many forms, sometimes deceiving us with a semblance of such deceiving us with a semblance of such deceiving us with a semblance of such transformations? Or is he one and the transformations? Or is he one and the transformations? Or is he one and the same, immutably fixed in his own proper same, immutably fixed in his own proper same, immutably fixed in his own proper image? image? image? I cannot answer you, he said, without I cannot answer you, he said, without I cannot answer you, he said, without more thought. more thought. more thought. Well, I said, but if we suppose a change Well, I said, but if we suppose a change Well, I said, but if we suppose a change in anything, that that change must be in anything, that that change must be in anything, that that change must be effected either by the thing itself or effected either by the thing itself or effected either by the thing itself or by some other thing.

by some other thing. by some other thing. Most certainly. And things which are at Most certainly. And things which are at Most certainly. And things which are at their best are also least liable to be their best are also least liable to be their best are also least liable to be altered or decomposed. For example, when altered or decomposed. For example, when altered or decomposed. For example, when healthiest and strongest, the human healthiest and strongest, the human healthiest and strongest, the human frame is least liable to be affected by frame is least liable to be affected by frame is least liable to be affected by meats and drinks, and the plant which is meats and drinks, and the plant which is meats and drinks, and the plant which is in the fullest vigor also suffers least in the fullest vigor also suffers least in the fullest vigor also suffers least from winds or the heat of the sun or any from winds or the heat of the sun or any from winds or the heat of the sun or any similar causes. Of course. And will not similar causes. Of course. And will not similar causes. Of course. And will not the bravest and wisest soul be least the bravest and wisest soul be least the bravest and wisest soul be least confused or deranged by any external confused or deranged by any external confused or deranged by any external influence. True. And the same principle, influence. True. And the same principle, influence. True. And the same principle, as I should suppose, applies to all as I should suppose, applies to all as I should suppose, applies to all composite things, furniture, houses, composite things, furniture, houses, composite things, furniture, houses, garments. When good and well-made, they garments. When good and well-made, they garments. When good and well-made, they are least altered by time and are least altered by time and are least altered by time and circumstances. Very true. Then circumstances. Very true. Then circumstances. Very true. Then everything which is good, whether made everything which is good, whether made everything which is good, whether made by art or nature or both, is least by art or nature or both, is least by art or nature or both, is least liable to suffer change from without. liable to suffer change from without. liable to suffer change from without. True. True. True. But surely, God and the things of God But surely, God and the things of God But surely, God and the things of God are in every way perfect. Of course they are in every way perfect. Of course they are in every way perfect. Of course they are. Then he can hardly be compelled by are. Then he can hardly be compelled by are. Then he can hardly be compelled by external influence to take many shapes.

external influence to take many shapes. external influence to take many shapes. He cannot. But may he not change and He cannot. But may he not change and He cannot. But may he not change and transform himself? transform himself? transform himself? Clearly, he said, that must be the case Clearly, he said, that must be the case Clearly, he said, that must be the case if he is changed at all. And will he if he is changed at all. And will he if he is changed at all. And will he then change himself for the better and then change himself for the better and then change himself for the better and fairer or for the worse and more fairer or for the worse and more fairer or for the worse and more unsightly? unsightly? unsightly? If he change at all, he can only change If he change at all, he can only change If he change at all, he can only change for the worse, for we cannot suppose him for the worse, for we cannot suppose him for the worse, for we cannot suppose him to be deficient either in virtue or to be deficient either in virtue or to be deficient either in virtue or beauty. beauty. beauty. Very true, Adamantus. But then, would Very true, Adamantus. But then, would Very true, Adamantus. But then, would anyone, whether God or man, desire to anyone, whether God or man, desire to anyone, whether God or man, desire to make himself worse? make himself worse? make himself worse? Impossible. Impossible. Impossible. Then it is impossible that God should Then it is impossible that God should Then it is impossible that God should ever be willing to change, being as is ever be willing to change, being as is ever be willing to change, being as is supposed the fairest and best that is supposed the fairest and best that is supposed the fairest and best that is conceivable. Every God remains conceivable. Every God remains conceivable. Every God remains absolutely and forever in his own form. absolutely and forever in his own form. absolutely and forever in his own form. That necessarily follows, he said, in my That necessarily follows, he said, in my That necessarily follows, he said, in my judgment. judgment. judgment. Then, I said, my dear friend, let none Then, I said, my dear friend, let none Then, I said, my dear friend, let none of the poets tell us that the gods, of the poets tell us that the gods, of the poets tell us that the gods, taking the disguise of strangers from taking the disguise of strangers from taking the disguise of strangers from other lands, walk up and down cities in other lands, walk up and down cities in other lands, walk up and down cities in all sorts of forms. And let no one all sorts of forms. And let no one all sorts of forms. And let no one slander Proteus and Thetis. Neither let slander Proteus and Thetis. Neither let slander Proteus and Thetis. Neither let anyone, either in tragedy or in any anyone, either in tragedy or in any anyone, either in tragedy or in any other kind of poetry, introduce Hera other kind of poetry, introduce Hera other kind of poetry, introduce Hera disguised in the likeness of a priestess disguised in the likeness of a priestess disguised in the likeness of a priestess asking an alms for the life-giving asking an alms for the life-giving asking an alms for the life-giving daughters of Inachus, the river of daughters of Inachus, the river of daughters of Inachus, the river of Argus.

Argus. Argus. Let us have no more lies of that sort. Let us have no more lies of that sort. Let us have no more lies of that sort. Neither must we have mothers under the Neither must we have mothers under the Neither must we have mothers under the influence of the poets scaring their influence of the poets scaring their influence of the poets scaring their children with a bad version of these children with a bad version of these children with a bad version of these myths, telling how certain gods, as they myths, telling how certain gods, as they myths, telling how certain gods, as they say, go about by night in the likeness say, go about by night in the likeness say, go about by night in the likeness of so many strangers and in diverse of so many strangers and in diverse of so many strangers and in diverse forms. forms. forms. But let them take heed lest they make But let them take heed lest they make But let them take heed lest they make cowards of their children and at the cowards of their children and at the cowards of their children and at the same time speak blasphemy against the same time speak blasphemy against the same time speak blasphemy against the gods. gods. gods. Heaven forbid, he said. Heaven forbid, he said. Heaven forbid, he said. But although the gods are themselves But although the gods are themselves But although the gods are themselves unchangeable, still by witchcraft and unchangeable, still by witchcraft and unchangeable, still by witchcraft and deception they may make us think that deception they may make us think that deception they may make us think that they appear in various forms. they appear in various forms. they appear in various forms. Perhaps, he replied. Perhaps, he replied. Perhaps, he replied. Well, but can you imagine that God will Well, but can you imagine that God will Well, but can you imagine that God will be willing to lie, whether in word or be willing to lie, whether in word or be willing to lie, whether in word or deed, or put forth a phantom of himself? deed, or put forth a phantom of himself? deed, or put forth a phantom of himself? I cannot say, he replied. Do you not I cannot say, he replied. Do you not I cannot say, he replied. Do you not know, I said, that the true lie, if such know, I said, that the true lie, if such know, I said, that the true lie, if such an expression may be allowed, is hated an expression may be allowed, is hated an expression may be allowed, is hated of gods and men? What do you mean? He of gods and men? What do you mean? He of gods and men? What do you mean? He said.

said. said. I mean that no one is willingly deceived I mean that no one is willingly deceived I mean that no one is willingly deceived in that which is the truest and highest in that which is the truest and highest in that which is the truest and highest part of himself or about the truest and part of himself or about the truest and part of himself or about the truest and highest matters. There, above all, he is highest matters. There, above all, he is highest matters. There, above all, he is most afraid of a lie having possession most afraid of a lie having possession most afraid of a lie having possession of him. of him. of him. Still, he said, I do not comprehend you. Still, he said, I do not comprehend you. Still, he said, I do not comprehend you. The reason is, I replied, that you The reason is, I replied, that you The reason is, I replied, that you attribute some profound meaning to my attribute some profound meaning to my attribute some profound meaning to my words, but I am only saying that words, but I am only saying that words, but I am only saying that deception or being deceived or deception or being deceived or deception or being deceived or uninformed about the highest realities uninformed about the highest realities uninformed about the highest realities in the highest part of themselves, which in the highest part of themselves, which in the highest part of themselves, which is the soul, and in that part of them to is the soul, and in that part of them to is the soul, and in that part of them to have and to hold the lie, is what have and to hold the lie, is what have and to hold the lie, is what mankind least like. That, I say, is what mankind least like. That, I say, is what mankind least like. That, I say, is what they utterly detest. There is nothing they utterly detest. There is nothing they utterly detest. There is nothing more hateful to them. And as I was just more hateful to them. And as I was just more hateful to them. And as I was just now remarking, this ignorance in the now remarking, this ignorance in the now remarking, this ignorance in the soul of him who is deceived may be soul of him who is deceived may be soul of him who is deceived may be called the true lie. For the lie in called the true lie. For the lie in called the true lie. For the lie in words is only a kind of imitation and words is only a kind of imitation and words is only a kind of imitation and shadowy image of a previous affection of shadowy image of a previous affection of shadowy image of a previous affection of the soul, not pure unadulterated the soul, not pure unadulterated the soul, not pure unadulterated falsehood. Am I not right? Perfectly falsehood. Am I not right? Perfectly falsehood. Am I not right? Perfectly right.

right. right. The true lie is hated not only by the The true lie is hated not only by the The true lie is hated not only by the gods, but also by men. Yes. gods, but also by men. Yes. gods, but also by men. Yes. Whereas the lie in words is in certain Whereas the lie in words is in certain Whereas the lie in words is in certain cases useful and not hateful. In dealing cases useful and not hateful. In dealing cases useful and not hateful. In dealing with enemies, that would be an instance. with enemies, that would be an instance. with enemies, that would be an instance. Or again, when those whom we call our Or again, when those whom we call our Or again, when those whom we call our friends in a fit of madness or illusion friends in a fit of madness or illusion friends in a fit of madness or illusion are going to do some harm, then it is are going to do some harm, then it is are going to do some harm, then it is useful and is a sort of medicine or useful and is a sort of medicine or useful and is a sort of medicine or preventive. preventive. preventive. Also in the tales of mythology, of which Also in the tales of mythology, of which Also in the tales of mythology, of which we were just now speaking, because we do we were just now speaking, because we do we were just now speaking, because we do not know the truth about ancient times, not know the truth about ancient times, not know the truth about ancient times, we make falsehood as much like truth as we make falsehood as much like truth as we make falsehood as much like truth as we can and so turn it into account. we can and so turn it into account. we can and so turn it into account. Very true, he said. Very true, he said. Very true, he said. But can any of these reasons apply to But can any of these reasons apply to But can any of these reasons apply to God? Can we suppose that he is ignorant God? Can we suppose that he is ignorant God? Can we suppose that he is ignorant of antiquity and therefore has recourse of antiquity and therefore has recourse of antiquity and therefore has recourse to invention? to invention? to invention? That would appear ridiculous, he said. That would appear ridiculous, he said. That would appear ridiculous, he said. Then the lying poet has no place in our Then the lying poet has no place in our Then the lying poet has no place in our idea of God. I should say not. idea of God. I should say not. idea of God. I should say not. Or perhaps he may tell a lie because he Or perhaps he may tell a lie because he Or perhaps he may tell a lie because he is afraid of enemies.

is afraid of enemies. is afraid of enemies. That is inconceivable. But he may have That is inconceivable. But he may have That is inconceivable. But he may have friends who are senseless or mad. But no friends who are senseless or mad. But no friends who are senseless or mad. But no mad or senseless person can be a friend mad or senseless person can be a friend mad or senseless person can be a friend of God. Then no motive can be imagined of God. Then no motive can be imagined of God. Then no motive can be imagined why God should lie. why God should lie. why God should lie. None whatever. None whatever. None whatever. Then the superhuman and divine is Then the superhuman and divine is Then the superhuman and divine is absolutely incapable of falsehood. Yes. absolutely incapable of falsehood. Yes. absolutely incapable of falsehood. Yes. Then is God perfectly simple and true Then is God perfectly simple and true Then is God perfectly simple and true both in word and deed. He changes not. both in word and deed. He changes not. both in word and deed. He changes not. He deceives not either by sign or word, He deceives not either by sign or word, He deceives not either by sign or word, by dream or waking vision. by dream or waking vision. by dream or waking vision. "Your thoughts," he said, "are the "Your thoughts," he said, "are the "Your thoughts," he said, "are the reflection of my own." reflection of my own." reflection of my own." "You agree with me, then," I said, "that "You agree with me, then," I said, "that "You agree with me, then," I said, "that this is the second type or form in which this is the second type or form in which this is the second type or form in which we should write and speak about divine we should write and speak about divine we should write and speak about divine things? The gods are not magicians who things? The gods are not magicians who things? The gods are not magicians who transform themselves, neither do they transform themselves, neither do they transform themselves, neither do they deceive mankind in any way." deceive mankind in any way." deceive mankind in any way." "I grant that." "I grant that." "I grant that." "Then, although we are admirers of "Then, although we are admirers of "Then, although we are admirers of Homer, we do not admire the lying dream Homer, we do not admire the lying dream Homer, we do not admire the lying dream which Zeus sends to Agamemnon. Neither which Zeus sends to Agamemnon. Neither which Zeus sends to Agamemnon. Neither will we praise the verses of Aeschylus will we praise the verses of Aeschylus will we praise the verses of Aeschylus in which Thetis says that Apollo at her in which Thetis says that Apollo at her in which Thetis says that Apollo at her nuptials was celebrating in song a fair nuptials was celebrating in song a fair nuptials was celebrating in song a fair progeny whose days were to be long and progeny whose days were to be long and progeny whose days were to be long and to know no sickness. And when he had to know no sickness. And when he had to know no sickness. And when he had spoken of my lot as in all things spoken of my lot as in all things spoken of my lot as in all things blessed of heaven, he raised a note of blessed of heaven, he raised a note of blessed of heaven, he raised a note of triumph and cheered my soul. And I triumph and cheered my soul. And I triumph and cheered my soul. And I thought that the word of Phoebus, being thought that the word of Phoebus, being thought that the word of Phoebus, being driven and full of prophecy, would not driven and full of prophecy, would not driven and full of prophecy, would not fail. And now he himself who uttered the

fail. And now he himself who uttered the fail. And now he himself who uttered the strain, he who was present at the strain, he who was present at the strain, he who was present at the banquet and who said this, he it is who banquet and who said this, he it is who banquet and who said this, he it is who has slain my son." has slain my son." has slain my son." These are the kind of sentiments about These are the kind of sentiments about These are the kind of sentiments about the gods which will arouse our anger. the gods which will arouse our anger. the gods which will arouse our anger. And he who utters them shall be refused And he who utters them shall be refused And he who utters them shall be refused a chorus, neither shall we allow a chorus, neither shall we allow a chorus, neither shall we allow teachers to make use of them in the teachers to make use of them in the teachers to make use of them in the instruction of the young, meaning, as we instruction of the young, meaning, as we instruction of the young, meaning, as we do, that our guardians, as far as men do, that our guardians, as far as men do, that our guardians, as far as men can be, shall be true worshipers of the can be, shall be true worshipers of the can be, shall be true worshipers of the gods and like them. gods and like them. gods and like them. "I entirely agree," he said, "in these "I entirely agree," he said, "in these "I entirely agree," he said, "in these principles and promise to make them my principles and promise to make them my principles and promise to make them my laws."