Plato's Republic Book 1

the Republic by Plato translated by the Republic by Plato translated by Benjamin Jowett this is a librivox Benjamin Jowett this is a librivox Benjamin Jowett this is a librivox recording all librivox recordings are in recording all librivox recordings are in recording all librivox recordings are in the public domain for more information the public domain for more information the public domain for more information or to volunteer please visit or to volunteer please visit or to volunteer please visit librivox.org read by Bob Neufeld persons librivox.org read by Bob Neufeld persons librivox.org read by Bob Neufeld persons of the dialogue Socrates who is the of the dialogue Socrates who is the of the dialogue Socrates who is the narrator narrator narrator Glaucon Ida Montes Paula Marcus Calais Glaucon Ida Montes Paula Marcus Calais Glaucon Ida Montes Paula Marcus Calais for symmachus and Clyde Afon and others for symmachus and Clyde Afon and others for symmachus and Clyde Afon and others who are mute auditors the scene is laid who are mute auditors the scene is laid who are mute auditors the scene is laid in the house of carefulness at the in the house of carefulness at the in the house of carefulness at the Piraeus and the whole dialogue is Piraeus and the whole dialogue is Piraeus and the whole dialogue is narrated by Socrates the day after it narrated by Socrates the day after it narrated by Socrates the day after it actually took place to Timaeus actually took place to Timaeus actually took place to Timaeus hermocrates krytus and a nameless person hermocrates krytus and a nameless person hermocrates krytus and a nameless person who are introduced in the Timaeus book 1 who are introduced in the Timaeus book 1 who are introduced in the Timaeus book 1 I went down yesterday to the Piraeus I went down yesterday to the Piraeus I went down yesterday to the Piraeus with glocken the son of Ariston that I with glocken the son of Ariston that I with glocken the son of Ariston that I might offer up my prayers to the goddess might offer up my prayers to the goddess might offer up my prayers to the goddess and also because I wanted to see in what and also because I wanted to see in what and also because I wanted to see in what manner they would celebrate the festival manner they would celebrate the festival manner they would celebrate the festival which was a new thing which was a new thing which was a new thing I was delighted with a procession of the I was delighted with a procession of the I was delighted with a procession of the inhabitants but that of the Thracians inhabitants but that of the Thracians inhabitants but that of the Thracians was equally if not more beautiful when was equally if not more beautiful when was equally if not more beautiful when we had finished our prayers and viewed we had finished our prayers and viewed we had finished our prayers and viewed the spectacle we turned in the direction the spectacle we turned in the direction the spectacle we turned in the direction of the city and at that instant Paula of the city and at that instant Paula of the city and at that instant Paula Marcus the son of catalyst chanced to Marcus the son of catalyst chanced to Marcus the son of catalyst chanced to catch sight of us from a distance as we catch sight of us from a distance as we catch sight of us from a distance as we were starting on our way home and told were starting on our way home and told were starting on our way home and told his servant to run and bid us wait for his servant to run and bid us wait for his servant to run and bid us wait for him the servant took hold of me by the him the servant took hold of me by the him the servant took hold of me by the cloak behind and said Paula Marcus

cloak behind and said Paula Marcus cloak behind and said Paula Marcus desires you to wait I turned around and desires you to wait I turned around and desires you to wait I turned around and asked him where his master was there he asked him where his master was there he asked him where his master was there he is said the youth coming after you if is said the youth coming after you if is said the youth coming after you if you will only wait certainly we will you will only wait certainly we will you will only wait certainly we will said Glaucon and in a few minutes said Glaucon and in a few minutes said Glaucon and in a few minutes Paula Marcus appeared and with him at a Paula Marcus appeared and with him at a Paula Marcus appeared and with him at a montes glaucon's brother Nicholas the montes glaucon's brother Nicholas the montes glaucon's brother Nicholas the son of Nikes and several others who had son of Nikes and several others who had son of Nikes and several others who had been at the procession Paula Marcus said been at the procession Paula Marcus said been at the procession Paula Marcus said to me I perceive Socrates that you and to me I perceive Socrates that you and to me I perceive Socrates that you and your companion are already on your way your companion are already on your way your companion are already on your way to the city you are not far wrong I said to the city you are not far wrong I said to the city you are not far wrong I said but do you see he rejoined how many we but do you see he rejoined how many we but do you see he rejoined how many we are of course and are you stronger than are of course and are you stronger than are of course and are you stronger than all these four if not you will have to all these four if not you will have to all these four if not you will have to remain where you are remain where you are remain where you are may there not be an alternative I said may there not be an alternative I said may there not be an alternative I said that we may persuade you to let us go that we may persuade you to let us go that we may persuade you to let us go but can you persuade us if we refuse to but can you persuade us if we refuse to but can you persuade us if we refuse to listen to you he said certainly not listen to you he said certainly not listen to you he said certainly not replied Glaucon then we are not going to replied Glaucon then we are not going to replied Glaucon then we are not going to listen of that you may be assured not a listen of that you may be assured not a listen of that you may be assured not a montes added has no place told you if a montes added has no place told you if a montes added has no place told you if a torch race on horseback in honor of the torch race on horseback in honor of the torch race on horseback in honor of the goddess which will take place in the goddess which will take place in the goddess which will take place in the evening with horses I replied that is a evening with horses I replied that is a evening with horses I replied that is a novelty will horsemen carry torches and novelty will horsemen carry torches and novelty will horsemen carry torches and pass them one to another during the race pass them one to another during the race pass them one to another during the race yes said polemarchus and not only so but yes said polemarchus and not only so but yes said polemarchus and not only so but a festival will be celebrated at night a festival will be celebrated at night a festival will be celebrated at night which you certainly ought to see let us

which you certainly ought to see let us which you certainly ought to see let us rise soon after supper and see this rise soon after supper and see this rise soon after supper and see this festival there will be a gathering of festival there will be a gathering of festival there will be a gathering of young men and we will have a good talk young men and we will have a good talk young men and we will have a good talk stay then and do not be perverse stay then and do not be perverse stay then and do not be perverse Glaucon said i suppose since you insist Glaucon said i suppose since you insist Glaucon said i suppose since you insist that we must very good I replied that we must very good I replied that we must very good I replied accordingly we went with Paulo Marcos to accordingly we went with Paulo Marcos to accordingly we went with Paulo Marcos to his house and there we found his his house and there we found his his house and there we found his brothers Lyceus and epidemis and with brothers Lyceus and epidemis and with brothers Lyceus and epidemis and with them tres amigas the cows at don't Ian them tres amigas the cows at don't Ian them tres amigas the cows at don't Ian come on to DS the pion and kleiner far come on to DS the pion and kleiner far come on to DS the pion and kleiner far the son of Ariston amiss there too was the son of Ariston amiss there too was the son of Ariston amiss there too was careful as the father of Paulo Marcos careful as the father of Paulo Marcos careful as the father of Paulo Marcos whom I had not seen for a long time and whom I had not seen for a long time and whom I had not seen for a long time and I thought him very much I thought him very much I thought him very much aged he was seated on a cushioned chair aged he was seated on a cushioned chair aged he was seated on a cushioned chair and had a garland on his head for he had and had a garland on his head for he had and had a garland on his head for he had been sacrificing in the court and there been sacrificing in the court and there been sacrificing in the court and there were some other chairs in the room were some other chairs in the room were some other chairs in the room arranged in a semi-circle upon which we arranged in a semi-circle upon which we arranged in a semi-circle upon which we sat down by him he saluted me eagerly sat down by him he saluted me eagerly sat down by him he saluted me eagerly and then he said you don't come to see and then he said you don't come to see and then he said you don't come to see me Socrates as often as you ought if I me Socrates as often as you ought if I me Socrates as often as you ought if I were still able to go and see you I were still able to go and see you I were still able to go and see you I would not ask you to come to me but at would not ask you to come to me but at would not ask you to come to me but at my age I can hardly get to the city and my age I can hardly get to the city and my age I can hardly get to the city and therefore you should come oftener to the therefore you should come oftener to the therefore you should come oftener to the Piraeus for let me tell you that the Piraeus for let me tell you that the Piraeus for let me tell you that the more the pleasures of the body fade away more the pleasures of the body fade away more the pleasures of the body fade away the greater to me is the pleasure and the greater to me is the pleasure and the greater to me is the pleasure and charm of conversation do not then deny charm of conversation do not then deny charm of conversation do not then deny my request but make our house your my request but make our house your my request but make our house your resorts and keep company with these

resorts and keep company with these resorts and keep company with these young men we are old friends and you young men we are old friends and you young men we are old friends and you will be quite at home with us I replied will be quite at home with us I replied will be quite at home with us I replied there is nothing which for my part I there is nothing which for my part I there is nothing which for my part I like better catalyst than conversing like better catalyst than conversing like better catalyst than conversing with aged men but I regard them as with aged men but I regard them as with aged men but I regard them as travellers who have gone on a journey travellers who have gone on a journey travellers who have gone on a journey which I too may have to go and of whom I which I too may have to go and of whom I which I too may have to go and of whom I ought to inquire whether the way is ought to inquire whether the way is ought to inquire whether the way is smooth and the easy or rugged and smooth and the easy or rugged and smooth and the easy or rugged and difficult and this is a question which I difficult and this is a question which I difficult and this is a question which I should like to ask of you who have should like to ask of you who have should like to ask of you who have arrived at that time which the poet's arrived at that time which the poet's arrived at that time which the poet's called the threshold of old age his life called the threshold of old age his life called the threshold of old age his life harder towards the end or what report do harder towards the end or what report do harder towards the end or what report do you give of it I will tell you Socrates you give of it I will tell you Socrates you give of it I will tell you Socrates he said what my own feeling is men of my he said what my own feeling is men of my he said what my own feeling is men of my age flock together we are birds of a age flock together we are birds of a age flock together we are birds of a feather as the old proverb feather as the old proverb feather as the old proverb and at our meetings the tale of my and at our meetings the tale of my and at our meetings the tale of my acquaintance commonly is I cannot eat I acquaintance commonly is I cannot eat I acquaintance commonly is I cannot eat I cannot drink the pleasures of youth and cannot drink the pleasures of youth and cannot drink the pleasures of youth and love a fled away there was a good time love a fled away there was a good time love a fled away there was a good time once but now that is gone and life is no once but now that is gone and life is no once but now that is gone and life is no longer life some complain of the slights longer life some complain of the slights longer life some complain of the slights which are put upon them by relations and which are put upon them by relations and which are put upon them by relations and they will tell you sadly of how many they will tell you sadly of how many they will tell you sadly of how many evils their old age is the cause but to evils their old age is the cause but to evils their old age is the cause but to me Socrates these complainers seem to me Socrates these complainers seem to me Socrates these complainers seem to blame that which is not really in fault blame that which is not really in fault blame that which is not really in fault for if old age were the cause I to being for if old age were the cause I to being for if old age were the cause I to being old and every other old man would have

old and every other old man would have old and every other old man would have felt as they do but this is not my own felt as they do but this is not my own felt as they do but this is not my own experience nor that of others whom I experience nor that of others whom I experience nor that of others whom I have known how well I remember the aged have known how well I remember the aged have known how well I remember the aged poet Sophocles when in answer to the poet Sophocles when in answer to the poet Sophocles when in answer to the question how does love suit with age question how does love suit with age question how does love suit with age Sophocles are you still the man you were Sophocles are you still the man you were Sophocles are you still the man you were piece they replied most gladly have I piece they replied most gladly have I piece they replied most gladly have I escaped the thing of which you speak now escaped the thing of which you speak now escaped the thing of which you speak now I feel as if I had escaped from a mad I feel as if I had escaped from a mad I feel as if I had escaped from a mad and furious master his words have often and furious master his words have often and furious master his words have often occurred to my mind since and they seem occurred to my mind since and they seem occurred to my mind since and they seem as good to me now as at the time when he as good to me now as at the time when he as good to me now as at the time when he uttered them for certainly old age has a uttered them for certainly old age has a uttered them for certainly old age has a great sense of calm and freedom when the great sense of calm and freedom when the great sense of calm and freedom when the passions relax their hold then as passions relax their hold then as passions relax their hold then as Sophocles says we are freed from the Sophocles says we are freed from the Sophocles says we are freed from the grasp not of one mad master only but of grasp not of one mad master only but of grasp not of one mad master only but of many the truth is Socrates that these many the truth is Socrates that these many the truth is Socrates that these regrets and also the complaints about regrets and also the complaints about regrets and also the complaints about relations are to be attributed to the relations are to be attributed to the relations are to be attributed to the same cause which is not old age but same cause which is not old age but same cause which is not old age but men's characters and tempers for he who men's characters and tempers for he who men's characters and tempers for he who is of a calm and happy nature will is of a calm and happy nature will is of a calm and happy nature will hardly feel the pressure of age but to hardly feel the pressure of age but to hardly feel the pressure of age but to him who is of an opposite disposition him who is of an opposite disposition him who is of an opposite disposition youth and age are equally a burden I youth and age are equally a burden I youth and age are equally a burden I listened in admiration and wanting to listened in admiration and wanting to listened in admiration and wanting to draw him out that he might go on draw him out that he might go on draw him out that he might go on yes careless I said but I rather suspect yes careless I said but I rather suspect yes careless I said but I rather suspect that people in general are not convinced that people in general are not convinced that people in general are not convinced by you when you speak thus they think

by you when you speak thus they think by you when you speak thus they think that old age sits lightly upon that old age sits lightly upon that old age sits lightly upon not because of your happy disposition not because of your happy disposition not because of your happy disposition but because you are rich and wealth is but because you are rich and wealth is but because you are rich and wealth is well known to be a great comforter you well known to be a great comforter you well known to be a great comforter you alright he replied they are not alright he replied they are not alright he replied they are not convinced and there is something in what convinced and there is something in what convinced and there is something in what they say not however so much as they they say not however so much as they they say not however so much as they imagined I might answer them as for mr. imagined I might answer them as for mr. imagined I might answer them as for mr. Cleese answered the sir if Ian who was Cleese answered the sir if Ian who was Cleese answered the sir if Ian who was abusing him and saying that he was abusing him and saying that he was abusing him and saying that he was famous not for his own merits but famous not for his own merits but famous not for his own merits but because he was an athenian if you had because he was an athenian if you had because he was an athenian if you had been a native of my country or i of been a native of my country or i of been a native of my country or i of yours neither of us would have been yours neither of us would have been yours neither of us would have been famous and to those who are not rich and famous and to those who are not rich and famous and to those who are not rich and are impatient of old age the same reply are impatient of old age the same reply are impatient of old age the same reply may be made for to the good poor man the may be made for to the good poor man the may be made for to the good poor man the old age cannot be a light burden nor can old age cannot be a light burden nor can old age cannot be a light burden nor can a bad rich man ever have peace with a bad rich man ever have peace with a bad rich man ever have peace with himself may I ask callous whether your himself may I ask callous whether your himself may I ask callous whether your fortune was for the most part inherited fortune was for the most part inherited fortune was for the most part inherited or acquired by you acquired Socrates do or acquired by you acquired Socrates do or acquired by you acquired Socrates do you want to know how much I acquired in you want to know how much I acquired in you want to know how much I acquired in the art of making money I have been the art of making money I have been the art of making money I have been midway between my father and grandfather midway between my father and grandfather midway between my father and grandfather for my grandfather whose name I bear for my grandfather whose name I bear for my grandfather whose name I bear doubled and troubled the value of his doubled and troubled the value of his doubled and troubled the value of his patrimony that which he inherited being patrimony that which he inherited being patrimony that which he inherited being much what I possess now but my much what I possess now but my much what I possess now but my fatherless aureus reduced the property fatherless aureus reduced the property fatherless aureus reduced the property below what it is at present and I shall below what it is at present and I shall below what it is at present and I shall be satisfied if I leave to these my sons be satisfied if I leave to these my sons be satisfied if I leave to these my sons not less but a little more than I had

not less but a little more than I had not less but a little more than I had received that was why I asked you the received that was why I asked you the received that was why I asked you the question I replied because I see that question I replied because I see that question I replied because I see that you are indifferent about money which is you are indifferent about money which is you are indifferent about money which is a characteristic rather of those who a characteristic rather of those who a characteristic rather of those who have inherited their fortunes then of have inherited their fortunes then of have inherited their fortunes then of those who have acquired them the makers those who have acquired them the makers those who have acquired them the makers of fortunes have a second love of money of fortunes have a second love of money of fortunes have a second love of money as a creation of their own resembling as a creation of their own resembling as a creation of their own resembling the affection of authors for their own the affection of authors for their own the affection of authors for their own poems or of parents for their children poems or of parents for their children poems or of parents for their children besides that natural love of it for the besides that natural love of it for the besides that natural love of it for the sake of use and profit which is common sake of use and profit which is common sake of use and profit which is common to them and old men and hence they are to them and old men and hence they are to them and old men and hence they are very bad company for they can talk about very bad company for they can talk about very bad company for they can talk about nothing but the praises of wealth that nothing but the praises of wealth that nothing but the praises of wealth that is true he said yes that is very true is true he said yes that is very true is true he said yes that is very true but may I ask you another question what but may I ask you another question what but may I ask you another question what do you consider to be the greatest do you consider to be the greatest do you consider to be the greatest blessing which you have reaps from your blessing which you have reaps from your blessing which you have reaps from your wealth one he said of which I could not wealth one he said of which I could not wealth one he said of which I could not expect easily to convince others for let expect easily to convince others for let expect easily to convince others for let me tell you Socrates that when a man me tell you Socrates that when a man me tell you Socrates that when a man thinks himself to be near death fears thinks himself to be near death fears thinks himself to be near death fears and cares into into his mind which he and cares into into his mind which he and cares into into his mind which he never had before the tales of a world never had before the tales of a world never had before the tales of a world below and the punishment which is below and the punishment which is below and the punishment which is exactly thereof deeds done here well exactly thereof deeds done here well exactly thereof deeds done here well once a laughing matter to him but now he once a laughing matter to him but now he once a laughing matter to him but now he is tormented with the thought that they is tormented with the thought that they is tormented with the thought that they may be true either from the weakness of may be true either from the weakness of may be true either from the weakness of age or because he is now drawing near to age or because he is now drawing near to age or because he is now drawing near to that other place he has a clearer view that other place he has a clearer view that other place he has a clearer view of these things suspicions and alarms of these things suspicions and alarms of these things suspicions and alarms crowd thickly upon him and he begins to

crowd thickly upon him and he begins to crowd thickly upon him and he begins to reflect and consider what bronze he has reflect and consider what bronze he has reflect and consider what bronze he has done to others and when he finds that done to others and when he finds that done to others and when he finds that the sum of his transgressions is great the sum of his transgressions is great the sum of his transgressions is great he will many a time like a child start he will many a time like a child start he will many a time like a child start up in his sleep for fear and he is up in his sleep for fear and he is up in his sleep for fear and he is filled with dark forebodings but to him filled with dark forebodings but to him filled with dark forebodings but to him who is conscious of no sin sweet hope as who is conscious of no sin sweet hope as who is conscious of no sin sweet hope as Pindar charmingly says is the kind nurse Pindar charmingly says is the kind nurse Pindar charmingly says is the kind nurse of his age hope he says cherishes the of his age hope he says cherishes the of his age hope he says cherishes the soul of him who lives in justice and soul of him who lives in justice and soul of him who lives in justice and holiness and is the nurse of his age and holiness and is the nurse of his age and holiness and is the nurse of his age and the companion of his journey Hope which the companion of his journey Hope which the companion of his journey Hope which is mightiest to sway the restless soul is mightiest to sway the restless soul is mightiest to sway the restless soul of man how admirable are his words and of man how admirable are his words and of man how admirable are his words and the great blessing of riches I do not the great blessing of riches I do not the great blessing of riches I do not say to every man but to a good man is say to every man but to a good man is say to every man but to a good man is that he has had no occasion to deceive that he has had no occasion to deceive that he has had no occasion to deceive or to defraud others either or to defraud others either or to defraud others either intentionally or unintentionally then intentionally or unintentionally then intentionally or unintentionally then when he departs to the world below he is when he departs to the world below he is when he departs to the world below he is not in any apprehension about offerings not in any apprehension about offerings not in any apprehension about offerings due to the gods or debts which he owes due to the gods or debts which he owes due to the gods or debts which he owes to men now to this peace of mind the to men now to this peace of mind the to men now to this peace of mind the possession of wealth greatly contributes possession of wealth greatly contributes possession of wealth greatly contributes and therefore I say that setting one and therefore I say that setting one and therefore I say that setting one thing against another of the many thing against another of the many thing against another of the many advantages which wealth has to give to a advantages which wealth has to give to a advantages which wealth has to give to a man of sense this is in my opinion man of sense this is in my opinion man of sense this is in my opinion greatest well said catalyst replied greatest well said catalyst replied greatest well said catalyst replied but as concerning justice what is it to but as concerning justice what is it to but as concerning justice what is it to speak the truth and to pay your debts no

speak the truth and to pay your debts no speak the truth and to pay your debts no more than this and even to this are more than this and even to this are more than this and even to this are there not exceptions suppose that a there not exceptions suppose that a there not exceptions suppose that a friend went in his right mind has friend went in his right mind has friend went in his right mind has deposited arms with me and he asks for deposited arms with me and he asks for deposited arms with me and he asks for them when he is not in his right mind them when he is not in his right mind them when he is not in his right mind ought I to give them back to him no one ought I to give them back to him no one ought I to give them back to him no one would say that I ought or that I should would say that I ought or that I should would say that I ought or that I should be right in doing so any more than they be right in doing so any more than they be right in doing so any more than they would say that I are always to speak the would say that I are always to speak the would say that I are always to speak the truth to one who was in his condition truth to one who was in his condition truth to one who was in his condition you are quite right he replied but then you are quite right he replied but then you are quite right he replied but then I said speaking the truth and paying I said speaking the truth and paying I said speaking the truth and paying your debts is not a correct definition your debts is not a correct definition your debts is not a correct definition of justice quite correct of justice quite correct of justice quite correct Socrates if some an ADIZ is to be Socrates if some an ADIZ is to be Socrates if some an ADIZ is to be believed said Paulo Marcos interposing I believed said Paulo Marcos interposing I believed said Paulo Marcos interposing I fear said carefulness that I must go now fear said carefulness that I must go now fear said carefulness that I must go now for I have to look after the sacrifices for I have to look after the sacrifices for I have to look after the sacrifices and I hand over the argument to Paulo and I hand over the argument to Paulo and I hand over the argument to Paulo Marcos and the company is not Paulo Marcos and the company is not Paulo Marcos and the company is not Paulo Marcos your heir I said to be sure he Marcos your heir I said to be sure he Marcos your heir I said to be sure he answered and went away laughing to the answered and went away laughing to the answered and went away laughing to the sacrifices sacrifices sacrifices tell me then Oh thou heir of the tell me then Oh thou heir of the tell me then Oh thou heir of the arguments arguments arguments what did sigh monetise say and according what did sigh monetise say and according what did sigh monetise say and according to you truly say about justice he said to you truly say about justice he said to you truly say about justice he said that the repayment of a debt is just and that the repayment of a debt is just and that the repayment of a debt is just and in saying so he appears to me to be in saying so he appears to me to be in saying so he appears to me to be right I should be sorry to doubt the right I should be sorry to doubt the right I should be sorry to doubt the word of such a wise and inspired man but word of such a wise and inspired man but word of such a wise and inspired man but his meaning though probably clear to you his meaning though probably clear to you his meaning though probably clear to you is the reverse of clear to me for he is the reverse of clear to me for he is the reverse of clear to me for he certainly does not mean as we were just

certainly does not mean as we were just certainly does not mean as we were just now saying that I ought to return a now saying that I ought to return a now saying that I ought to return a deposit of arms or of anything else to deposit of arms or of anything else to deposit of arms or of anything else to one who asks for it when he is not in one who asks for it when he is not in one who asks for it when he is not in his right senses and yet a deposit his right senses and yet a deposit his right senses and yet a deposit cannot be denied to be a death true then cannot be denied to be a death true then cannot be denied to be a death true then when the person who asks me is not in when the person who asks me is not in when the person who asks me is not in his right mind I am by no means to make his right mind I am by no means to make his right mind I am by no means to make the return certainly not whence I'm the return certainly not whence I'm the return certainly not whence I'm honored II said that the repayment of a honored II said that the repayment of a honored II said that the repayment of a debt was justice he did not mean to debt was justice he did not mean to debt was justice he did not mean to include that case or certainly not for include that case or certainly not for include that case or certainly not for he thinks that a friend are always to do he thinks that a friend are always to do he thinks that a friend are always to do good to a friend and never evil you mean good to a friend and never evil you mean good to a friend and never evil you mean that the return of a deposit of gold that the return of a deposit of gold that the return of a deposit of gold which is to the injury of the receiver which is to the injury of the receiver which is to the injury of the receiver if the two parties are friends is not if the two parties are friends is not if the two parties are friends is not the repayment of a debt that is what you the repayment of a debt that is what you the repayment of a debt that is what you would imagine him to say yes and our would imagine him to say yes and our would imagine him to say yes and our enemies also to receive what we owe to enemies also to receive what we owe to enemies also to receive what we owe to them to be sure he said they are to them to be sure he said they are to them to be sure he said they are to receive what we owe them and an enemy as receive what we owe them and an enemy as receive what we owe them and an enemy as I take it owes to an enemy that which is I take it owes to an enemy that which is I take it owes to an enemy that which is due or proper to him due or proper to him due or proper to him that is to say evil Samana T's then that is to say evil Samana T's then that is to say evil Samana T's then after the manner of poets would seem to after the manner of poets would seem to after the manner of poets would seem to have spoken darkly of the nature of have spoken darkly of the nature of have spoken darkly of the nature of justice for he really meant to say that justice for he really meant to say that justice for he really meant to say that justice is the giving to each man what justice is the giving to each man what justice is the giving to each man what is profits of him and this he termed a is profits of him and this he termed a is profits of him and this he termed a debt that must have been his meaning he debt that must have been his meaning he debt that must have been his meaning he said by heaven I replied and if we asked said by heaven I replied and if we asked said by heaven I replied and if we asked him what do or proper thing is given by him what do or proper thing is given by him what do or proper thing is given by medicine and to whom what answer do you

medicine and to whom what answer do you medicine and to whom what answer do you think that he would make to us he would think that he would make to us he would think that he would make to us he would surely reply that medicine gives drugs surely reply that medicine gives drugs surely reply that medicine gives drugs and meat and drink to human bodies and and meat and drink to human bodies and and meat and drink to human bodies and what do our proper thing is given by what do our proper thing is given by what do our proper thing is given by cookery and to what cookery and to what cookery and to what seasoning to food and what is that which seasoning to food and what is that which seasoning to food and what is that which justice gives and to whom if Socrates we justice gives and to whom if Socrates we justice gives and to whom if Socrates we are to be guided at all by the analogy are to be guided at all by the analogy are to be guided at all by the analogy of the preceding instances then justice of the preceding instances then justice of the preceding instances then justice is the art which gives good to friends is the art which gives good to friends is the art which gives good to friends and evil to enemies that is his meaning and evil to enemies that is his meaning and evil to enemies that is his meaning then I think so and who is best able to then I think so and who is best able to then I think so and who is best able to do good to his friends and evil to his do good to his friends and evil to his do good to his friends and evil to his enemies in time of sickness the enemies in time of sickness the enemies in time of sickness the physician or when they are on a voyage physician or when they are on a voyage physician or when they are on a voyage amid the perils of the sea the pilot and amid the perils of the sea the pilot and amid the perils of the sea the pilot and it wants sort of passions or with a view it wants sort of passions or with a view it wants sort of passions or with a view to what results is the just man most to what results is the just man most to what results is the just man most able to do harm to his enemy and good to able to do harm to his enemy and good to able to do harm to his enemy and good to his friend in going to war against the his friend in going to war against the his friend in going to war against the one and in making alliances with the one and in making alliances with the one and in making alliances with the other but when a man is well my dear other but when a man is well my dear other but when a man is well my dear Paulo Marcus there is no need of a Paulo Marcus there is no need of a Paulo Marcus there is no need of a physician no and he who is not on a physician no and he who is not on a physician no and he who is not on a voyage as no need of a pilot no then in voyage as no need of a pilot no then in voyage as no need of a pilot no then in time of peace justice will be of no use time of peace justice will be of no use time of peace justice will be of no use I am very far from thinking so you think I am very far from thinking so you think I am very far from thinking so you think that justice may be abuse in peace as that justice may be abuse in peace as that justice may be abuse in peace as well as in war he s like husbandry for well as in war he s like husbandry for well as in war he s like husbandry for the acquisition of corn yes or like the acquisition of corn yes or like the acquisition of corn yes or like shoemaking for the acquisition of shoes

shoemaking for the acquisition of shoes shoemaking for the acquisition of shoes that is what you mean yes and what that is what you mean yes and what that is what you mean yes and what similar use or power of acquisition as similar use or power of acquisition as similar use or power of acquisition as justice in time of peace in contracts justice in time of peace in contracts justice in time of peace in contracts socrates justices of views and by socrates justices of views and by socrates justices of views and by contracts you mean partnerships exactly contracts you mean partnerships exactly contracts you mean partnerships exactly but is the just man or the skillful but is the just man or the skillful but is the just man or the skillful player are more useful and better player are more useful and better player are more useful and better partner at the game of drafts the partner at the game of drafts the partner at the game of drafts the skillful player and in the laying of skillful player and in the laying of skillful player and in the laying of bricks and stones is the just man a more bricks and stones is the just man a more bricks and stones is the just man a more useful or better partner than the useful or better partner than the useful or better partner than the builder or quite the reverse then in builder or quite the reverse then in builder or quite the reverse then in what sort of partnership is the just man what sort of partnership is the just man what sort of partnership is the just man a better partner than the heart player a better partner than the heart player a better partner than the heart player as in playing the heart the heart player as in playing the heart the heart player as in playing the heart the heart player is certainly a better partner than the is certainly a better partner than the is certainly a better partner than the just man in a money partnership yes just man in a money partnership yes just man in a money partnership yes Paulo Marcos but surely not in the use Paulo Marcos but surely not in the use Paulo Marcos but surely not in the use of money for you do not want a just man of money for you do not want a just man of money for you do not want a just man to be your to be your to be your councilor in the purchase or sale of a councilor in the purchase or sale of a councilor in the purchase or sale of a horse a man who is knowing about horses horse a man who is knowing about horses horse a man who is knowing about horses would be better for that but he not would be better for that but he not would be better for that but he not certainly and when you want to buy a certainly and when you want to buy a certainly and when you want to buy a ship the ship ride where the pilot would ship the ship ride where the pilot would ship the ship ride where the pilot would be better true then what is that joint be better true then what is that joint be better true then what is that joint use of silver or gold in which the just use of silver or gold in which the just use of silver or gold in which the just man is to be preferred when you want a man is to be preferred when you want a man is to be preferred when you want a deposit to be kept safely you mean when deposit to be kept safely you mean when deposit to be kept safely you mean when money is not wanted but allowed to lie money is not wanted but allowed to lie money is not wanted but allowed to lie precisely that is to say justice is precisely that is to say justice is precisely that is to say justice is useful when money is useless that is the useful when money is useless that is the useful when money is useless that is the inference when when you want to keep a inference when when you want to keep a inference when when you want to keep a pruning hook safe then justice is useful

pruning hook safe then justice is useful pruning hook safe then justice is useful to the individual and to the state but to the individual and to the state but to the individual and to the state but when you want to use it then the art of when you want to use it then the art of when you want to use it then the art of the vine dresser clearly and when you the vine dresser clearly and when you the vine dresser clearly and when you want to keep a shield or a lyre and not want to keep a shield or a lyre and not want to keep a shield or a lyre and not to use them you would say that justice to use them you would say that justice to use them you would say that justice is useful but when you want to use them is useful but when you want to use them is useful but when you want to use them then the art of the soldier or of the then the art of the soldier or of the then the art of the soldier or of the musician certainly and so of all other musician certainly and so of all other musician certainly and so of all other things justice is useful when they are things justice is useful when they are things justice is useful when they are useless and useless when they are useful useless and useless when they are useful useless and useless when they are useful that is the inference then justice is that is the inference then justice is that is the inference then justice is not good for much but let us consider not good for much but let us consider not good for much but let us consider this further point it's not he who can this further point it's not he who can this further point it's not he who can best strike a blow in a boxing match or best strike a blow in a boxing match or best strike a blow in a boxing match or in any kind of fighting best able to in any kind of fighting best able to in any kind of fighting best able to ward off a blow certainly and he who is ward off a blow certainly and he who is ward off a blow certainly and he who is most skillful in preventing or escaping most skillful in preventing or escaping most skillful in preventing or escaping from a disease is best able to create from a disease is best able to create from a disease is best able to create one true and he is the best guard of a one true and he is the best guard of a one true and he is the best guard of a camp who is best able to steal a march camp who is best able to steal a march camp who is best able to steal a march upon the enemy or certainly then he who upon the enemy or certainly then he who upon the enemy or certainly then he who is a good keeper of anything is also a is a good keeper of anything is also a is a good keeper of anything is also a good thief that I suppose is to be good thief that I suppose is to be good thief that I suppose is to be inferred then if the just man is good at inferred then if the just man is good at inferred then if the just man is good at keeping money he is good at stealing it keeping money he is good at stealing it keeping money he is good at stealing it that is implied in the argument then that is implied in the argument then that is implied in the argument then after all the just man has turned out to after all the just man has turned out to after all the just man has turned out to be a thief and this is a lesson which I be a thief and this is a lesson which I be a thief and this is a lesson which I suspect you must have learnt out of suspect you must have learnt out of suspect you must have learnt out of Homer for he speaking of autologous the Homer for he speaking of autologous the Homer for he speaking of autologous the maternal grandfather of Odysseus who is maternal grandfather of Odysseus who is maternal grandfather of Odysseus who is a favorite of his affirms that he was

a favorite of his affirms that he was a favorite of his affirms that he was excellent above all men in excellent above all men in excellent above all men in theft and perjury and so you and Homer theft and perjury and so you and Homer theft and perjury and so you and Homer and Simon ADIZ are agreed that justice and Simon ADIZ are agreed that justice and Simon ADIZ are agreed that justice is an art of theft to be practiced is an art of theft to be practiced is an art of theft to be practiced however for the good of friends and for however for the good of friends and for however for the good of friends and for the harm of enemies that was what you the harm of enemies that was what you the harm of enemies that was what you were saying no certainly not that though were saying no certainly not that though were saying no certainly not that though I do not know now what I did say but I I do not know now what I did say but I I do not know now what I did say but I still stand by the latter words well still stand by the latter words well still stand by the latter words well there is another question by friends and there is another question by friends and there is another question by friends and enemies do we mean those who are so enemies do we mean those who are so enemies do we mean those who are so really or only in seeming surely he said really or only in seeming surely he said really or only in seeming surely he said a man may be expected to love those whom a man may be expected to love those whom a man may be expected to love those whom he thinks good and to hate those whom he he thinks good and to hate those whom he he thinks good and to hate those whom he thinks evil yes but do not persons often thinks evil yes but do not persons often thinks evil yes but do not persons often earn about good and evil many who are earn about good and evil many who are earn about good and evil many who are not good seem to be so and conversely not good seem to be so and conversely not good seem to be so and conversely well that is true then to them the good well that is true then to them the good well that is true then to them the good will be enemies and the evil will be will be enemies and the evil will be will be enemies and the evil will be their friends true and in that case they their friends true and in that case they their friends true and in that case they will be right in doing good to the evil will be right in doing good to the evil will be right in doing good to the evil and evil to the good clearly but the and evil to the good clearly but the and evil to the good clearly but the good are just and would not do an good are just and would not do an good are just and would not do an injustice true then according to your injustice true then according to your injustice true then according to your arguments it is just to injure those who arguments it is just to injure those who arguments it is just to injure those who do no wrong nay Socrates the doctrine is do no wrong nay Socrates the doctrine is do no wrong nay Socrates the doctrine is immoral then I suppose that we ought to immoral then I suppose that we ought to immoral then I suppose that we ought to do good to the just and harm to the do good to the just and harm to the do good to the just and harm to the unjust I like that better unjust I like that better unjust I like that better but see the consequence many a man who but see the consequence many a man who but see the consequence many a man who is ignorant of human nature has friends

is ignorant of human nature has friends is ignorant of human nature has friends who are bad friends and in that case he who are bad friends and in that case he who are bad friends and in that case he ought to do harm to them and he has good ought to do harm to them and he has good ought to do harm to them and he has good enemies whom he ought to benefit but if enemies whom he ought to benefit but if enemies whom he ought to benefit but if so we shall be saying the very opposite so we shall be saying the very opposite so we shall be saying the very opposite of that which we affirmed to be the of that which we affirmed to be the of that which we affirmed to be the meaning of Samana T's very true he said meaning of Samana T's very true he said meaning of Samana T's very true he said and I think that we had better correct and I think that we had better correct and I think that we had better correct an error into which we seem to have an error into which we seem to have an error into which we seem to have fallen in the use of the words friend fallen in the use of the words friend fallen in the use of the words friend and enemy what was the error Paulo and enemy what was the error Paulo and enemy what was the error Paulo Marcos Marcos Marcos I asked we assumed that he is a friend I asked we assumed that he is a friend I asked we assumed that he is a friend who seems to be or who is thought good who seems to be or who is thought good who seems to be or who is thought good and how is the error to be corrected we and how is the error to be corrected we and how is the error to be corrected we should rather say that he is a friend should rather say that he is a friend should rather say that he is a friend who is as well as seems good and that he who is as well as seems good and that he who is as well as seems good and that he who seems only and is not good only who seems only and is not good only who seems only and is not good only seems to be and is not a friend and love seems to be and is not a friend and love seems to be and is not a friend and love an enemy the same may be said you would an enemy the same may be said you would an enemy the same may be said you would argue that the good are our friends and argue that the good are our friends and argue that the good are our friends and the bad are enemies yes and instead of the bad are enemies yes and instead of the bad are enemies yes and instead of saying simply as we did at first that it saying simply as we did at first that it saying simply as we did at first that it is just to do good to our friends and is just to do good to our friends and is just to do good to our friends and harm to our enemies we should further harm to our enemies we should further harm to our enemies we should further say it is just to do good to our friends say it is just to do good to our friends say it is just to do good to our friends when they are good and harm to our when they are good and harm to our when they are good and harm to our enemies when they are evil yes that enemies when they are evil yes that enemies when they are evil yes that appears to me to be the truth but off appears to me to be the truth but off appears to me to be the truth but off the just to injure anyone at all the just to injure anyone at all the just to injure anyone at all undoubtedly he ought to enter those who undoubtedly he ought to enter those who undoubtedly he ought to enter those who are both wicked on his enemies when are both wicked on his enemies when are both wicked on his enemies when horses are injured are they improved or horses are injured are they improved or horses are injured are they improved or deteriorated the latter deteriorated deteriorated the latter deteriorated deteriorated the latter deteriorated that is to say in the good qualities of that is to say in the good qualities of that is to say in the good qualities of horses not of dogs yes of horses and

horses not of dogs yes of horses and horses not of dogs yes of horses and dogs are deteriorated in the good dogs are deteriorated in the good dogs are deteriorated in the good qualities of dogs and not of horses of qualities of dogs and not of horses of qualities of dogs and not of horses of course and will not men who are injured course and will not men who are injured course and will not men who are injured be deteriorated in that which is the be deteriorated in that which is the be deteriorated in that which is the proper virtue of man certainly and that proper virtue of man certainly and that proper virtue of man certainly and that human virtue is justice to be sure then human virtue is justice to be sure then human virtue is justice to be sure then men who are injured are of necessity men who are injured are of necessity men who are injured are of necessity made unjust that is the result but kind made unjust that is the result but kind made unjust that is the result but kind of musician by his art make men of musician by his art make men of musician by his art make men unmusical or certainly not or the unmusical or certainly not or the unmusical or certainly not or the horseman by his art make them bad horseman by his art make them bad horseman by his art make them bad horsemen impossible and can adjust by horsemen impossible and can adjust by horsemen impossible and can adjust by justise make men unjust oh speaking justise make men unjust oh speaking justise make men unjust oh speaking generally can the good by virtue make generally can the good by virtue make generally can the good by virtue make them bad assuredly not any more than them bad assuredly not any more than them bad assuredly not any more than heat can produce cold it cannot or heat can produce cold it cannot or heat can produce cold it cannot or drought moisture clearly not nor can the drought moisture clearly not nor can the drought moisture clearly not nor can the good harm an a.1 impossible and the just good harm an a.1 impossible and the just good harm an a.1 impossible and the just is the good certainly then to injure a is the good certainly then to injure a is the good certainly then to injure a friend or anyone else is not the act of friend or anyone else is not the act of friend or anyone else is not the act of a just man but of the opposite who is a just man but of the opposite who is a just man but of the opposite who is the unjust I think that what you say is the unjust I think that what you say is the unjust I think that what you say is quite true Socrates that if a man says quite true Socrates that if a man says quite true Socrates that if a man says that justice consists in the repayment that justice consists in the repayment that justice consists in the repayment of debts and that good is the debt which of debts and that good is the debt which of debts and that good is the debt which are just man owes to his friends and are just man owes to his friends and are just man owes to his friends and evil the debt which he owes to his evil the debt which he owes to his evil the debt which he owes to his enemies to say this is not wise for it enemies to say this is not wise for it enemies to say this is not wise for it is not true if as has been clearly shown is not true if as has been clearly shown is not true if as has been clearly shown the injuring of another can be in no

the injuring of another can be in no the injuring of another can be in no case just I agree with you said Paulo case just I agree with you said Paulo case just I agree with you said Paulo Marcus then you and I are prepared to Marcus then you and I are prepared to Marcus then you and I are prepared to take up arms against anyone who our take up arms against anyone who our take up arms against anyone who our tributes such as saying to semana DS or tributes such as saying to semana DS or tributes such as saying to semana DS or bias or Pittacus or any other wise man bias or Pittacus or any other wise man bias or Pittacus or any other wise man or seer I am quite ready to do battle at or seer I am quite ready to do battle at or seer I am quite ready to do battle at your side he said your side he said your side he said shall I tell you whose I believe is shall I tell you whose I believe is shall I tell you whose I believe is saying to be whose I believe that saying to be whose I believe that saying to be whose I believe that periander or pentakus or exact sees or periander or pentakus or exact sees or periander or pentakus or exact sees or as many of the Theban or some other rich as many of the Theban or some other rich as many of the Theban or some other rich and mighty man who had a great opinion and mighty man who had a great opinion and mighty man who had a great opinion of his own power of his own power of his own power was the first to say that justice is was the first to say that justice is was the first to say that justice is doing good to your friends and harm to doing good to your friends and harm to doing good to your friends and harm to your enemies most true he said yes I your enemies most true he said yes I your enemies most true he said yes I said but if this definition of justice said but if this definition of justice said but if this definition of justice also breaks down what other can be also breaks down what other can be also breaks down what other can be offered several times in the course of offered several times in the course of offered several times in the course of the discussion the discussion the discussion Thrasymachus had made an attempt to get Thrasymachus had made an attempt to get Thrasymachus had made an attempt to get the argument into his own hands and had the argument into his own hands and had the argument into his own hands and had been put down by the rest of the company been put down by the rest of the company been put down by the rest of the company who wanted to hear the end but when who wanted to hear the end but when who wanted to hear the end but when Paulo Marcus and I had done speaking and Paulo Marcus and I had done speaking and Paulo Marcus and I had done speaking and there was a pause he could no longer there was a pause he could no longer there was a pause he could no longer hold his peace and gathering himself off hold his peace and gathering himself off hold his peace and gathering himself off he came at us like a wild beast seeking he came at us like a wild beast seeking he came at us like a wild beast seeking to devour us we were quite to devour us we were quite to devour us we were quite panic-stricken at the side of him he panic-stricken at the side of him he panic-stricken at the side of him he roared out of the roared out of the roared out of the whole company what folly Socrates has whole company what folly Socrates has whole company what folly Socrates has taken possession of you all and why taken possession of you all and why taken possession of you all and why silly Billy's do you knock under to one silly Billy's do you knock under to one silly Billy's do you knock under to one another I say that if you want really to

another I say that if you want really to another I say that if you want really to know what justice is you should not only know what justice is you should not only know what justice is you should not only ask but answer and you should not seek ask but answer and you should not seek ask but answer and you should not seek honor to yourself from the refutation of honor to yourself from the refutation of honor to yourself from the refutation of an opponent but have your own answer for an opponent but have your own answer for an opponent but have your own answer for there is many a one who can ask and there is many a one who can ask and there is many a one who can ask and cannot answer and now I will not have cannot answer and now I will not have cannot answer and now I will not have you say that justice is duty or you say that justice is duty or you say that justice is duty or advantage or profit or gain or interest advantage or profit or gain or interest advantage or profit or gain or interest for this sort of nonsense will not do for this sort of nonsense will not do for this sort of nonsense will not do for me for me for me I must have clearness and accuracy I was I must have clearness and accuracy I was I must have clearness and accuracy I was panic-stricken at his words and could panic-stricken at his words and could panic-stricken at his words and could not look at him without trembling indeed not look at him without trembling indeed not look at him without trembling indeed I believed that if I had not fixed my I believed that if I had not fixed my I believed that if I had not fixed my eye upon him eye upon him eye upon him I should have been struck dumb but when I should have been struck dumb but when I should have been struck dumb but when I saw his fury rising I looked at him I saw his fury rising I looked at him I saw his fury rising I looked at him first and was therefore able to reply to first and was therefore able to reply to first and was therefore able to reply to him Thrasymachus him Thrasymachus him Thrasymachus I said with a quiver don't be hard upon I said with a quiver don't be hard upon I said with a quiver don't be hard upon us Paulo Marcus and I may have been us Paulo Marcus and I may have been us Paulo Marcus and I may have been guilty of a little mistake in the guilty of a little mistake in the guilty of a little mistake in the argument but I can assure you that the argument but I can assure you that the argument but I can assure you that the error was not contention or if we were error was not contention or if we were error was not contention or if we were seeking for a piece of gold you would seeking for a piece of gold you would seeking for a piece of gold you would not imagine that we were knocking under not imagine that we were knocking under not imagine that we were knocking under to one another and so loosing our chance to one another and so loosing our chance to one another and so loosing our chance of finding it and why when we are of finding it and why when we are of finding it and why when we are seeking for justice a thing more seeking for justice a thing more seeking for justice a thing more precious than many pieces of gold do you precious than many pieces of gold do you precious than many pieces of gold do you say that we are weakly yielding to one say that we are weakly yielding to one say that we are weakly yielding to one another and not doing our utmost to get another and not doing our utmost to get another and not doing our utmost to get at the truth nay my good friend we are at the truth nay my good friend we are at the truth nay my good friend we are most willing and anxious to do so but most willing and anxious to do so but most willing and anxious to do so but the fact is that we cannot and if so you the fact is that we cannot and if so you the fact is that we cannot and if so you people who know all things should pity

people who know all things should pity people who know all things should pity us and not be angry with us how us and not be angry with us how us and not be angry with us how characteristic of Socrates he replied characteristic of Socrates he replied characteristic of Socrates he replied with a bitter laugh but that's your with a bitter laugh but that's your with a bitter laugh but that's your ironical style did I not foresee have I ironical style did I not foresee have I ironical style did I not foresee have I not already told you that whatever he not already told you that whatever he not already told you that whatever he was asked he would refuse to answer and was asked he would refuse to answer and was asked he would refuse to answer and try irony or any other shuffle in order try irony or any other shuffle in order try irony or any other shuffle in order that he might avoid answering you are a that he might avoid answering you are a that he might avoid answering you are a philosopher Thrasymachus I replied and philosopher Thrasymachus I replied and philosopher Thrasymachus I replied and well know that if you ask a person what well know that if you ask a person what well know that if you ask a person what numbers make up twelve numbers make up twelve numbers make up twelve taking care to prohibit him whom you ask taking care to prohibit him whom you ask taking care to prohibit him whom you ask from answering twice six or three times from answering twice six or three times from answering twice six or three times four or six times 2 or 4 times 3 for four or six times 2 or 4 times 3 for four or six times 2 or 4 times 3 for this sort of nonsense will not do for me this sort of nonsense will not do for me this sort of nonsense will not do for me then obviously if that is your way of then obviously if that is your way of then obviously if that is your way of putting the question no one can answer putting the question no one can answer putting the question no one can answer you but suppose that he were to retort you but suppose that he were to retort you but suppose that he were to retort for Simic assume een if one of these for Simic assume een if one of these for Simic assume een if one of these numbers which you interdict be the true numbers which you interdict be the true numbers which you interdict be the true answer to the question am i falsely to answer to the question am i falsely to answer to the question am i falsely to say some other number which is not the say some other number which is not the say some other number which is not the right one is that your meaning how would right one is that your meaning how would right one is that your meaning how would you answer him just as if the two cases you answer him just as if the two cases you answer him just as if the two cases were at all alike were at all alike were at all alike he said but why should they not be I he said but why should they not be I he said but why should they not be I replied and even if they are not but replied and even if they are not but replied and even if they are not but only appeared to be so to the person who only appeared to be so to the person who only appeared to be so to the person who is asked or he not to say what he thinks is asked or he not to say what he thinks is asked or he not to say what he thinks whether you and I forbid him or not whether you and I forbid him or not whether you and I forbid him or not I presume then that you are going to I presume then that you are going to I presume then that you are going to make one of the interdicted answers I make one of the interdicted answers I make one of the interdicted answers I dare say that I may notwithstanding the

dare say that I may notwithstanding the dare say that I may notwithstanding the danger if upon reflection I approve of danger if upon reflection I approve of danger if upon reflection I approve of any of them but what if I give you an any of them but what if I give you an any of them but what if I give you an answer about justice other and better answer about justice other and better answer about justice other and better he said than any of these what do you he said than any of these what do you he said than any of these what do you deserve to have done to you done to me deserve to have done to you done to me deserve to have done to you done to me as becomes the ignorant I must learn as becomes the ignorant I must learn as becomes the ignorant I must learn from the wise that is what I deserve to from the wise that is what I deserve to from the wise that is what I deserve to have done to me have done to me have done to me what and no payment a pleasant notion I what and no payment a pleasant notion I what and no payment a pleasant notion I will pay when I have the money I replied will pay when I have the money I replied will pay when I have the money I replied but you have Socrates said Glaucon and but you have Socrates said Glaucon and but you have Socrates said Glaucon and you Thrasymachus need to be under no you Thrasymachus need to be under no you Thrasymachus need to be under no anxiety about money for we will all make anxiety about money for we will all make anxiety about money for we will all make a contribution for Socrates yes he a contribution for Socrates yes he a contribution for Socrates yes he replied and then Socrates will do as he replied and then Socrates will do as he replied and then Socrates will do as he always does refuse to answer himself but always does refuse to answer himself but always does refuse to answer himself but take and pull two pieces the answer of take and pull two pieces the answer of take and pull two pieces the answer of someone else why my good friend I said someone else why my good friend I said someone else why my good friend I said how can anyone answer who knows and says how can anyone answer who knows and says how can anyone answer who knows and says that he knows just nothing and who even that he knows just nothing and who even that he knows just nothing and who even if he has some fate notions of his own if he has some fate notions of his own if he has some fate notions of his own is told by a man of authority not to is told by a man of authority not to is told by a man of authority not to utter them the natural thing is that the utter them the natural thing is that the utter them the natural thing is that the speaker should be someone like yourself speaker should be someone like yourself speaker should be someone like yourself who professes to know and can tell what who professes to know and can tell what who professes to know and can tell what he knows will you then kindly answer for he knows will you then kindly answer for he knows will you then kindly answer for the edification the edification the edification of the company and of myself Glaucon and of the company and of myself Glaucon and of the company and of myself Glaucon and the rest of the company joined in my the rest of the company joined in my the rest of the company joined in my request and racemic us as anyone might request and racemic us as anyone might request and racemic us as anyone might see was in reality eager to speak for he see was in reality eager to speak for he see was in reality eager to speak for he thought that he had an excellent answer thought that he had an excellent answer thought that he had an excellent answer and would distinguish himself but at

and would distinguish himself but at and would distinguish himself but at first he affected to insist on my first he affected to insist on my first he affected to insist on my answering at length he consented to answering at length he consented to answering at length he consented to begin behold he said the wisdom of begin behold he said the wisdom of begin behold he said the wisdom of Socrates it refuses to teach himself and Socrates it refuses to teach himself and Socrates it refuses to teach himself and goes about learning of others to whom he goes about learning of others to whom he goes about learning of others to whom he never even says thank you that I learn never even says thank you that I learn never even says thank you that I learn of others I replied is quite true but of others I replied is quite true but of others I replied is quite true but that I am ungrateful I wholly deny money that I am ungrateful I wholly deny money that I am ungrateful I wholly deny money I have none and therefore I pay in I have none and therefore I pay in I have none and therefore I pay in praise which is all I have and how ready praise which is all I have and how ready praise which is all I have and how ready I am to praise anyone who appears to me I am to praise anyone who appears to me I am to praise anyone who appears to me to speak well you will very soon find to speak well you will very soon find to speak well you will very soon find out when you answer for I expect that out when you answer for I expect that out when you answer for I expect that you will answer well listen then he said you will answer well listen then he said you will answer well listen then he said I proclaim that justice is nothing else I proclaim that justice is nothing else I proclaim that justice is nothing else than the interest of the stronger and than the interest of the stronger and than the interest of the stronger and now why do you not praise me but of now why do you not praise me but of now why do you not praise me but of course you want course you want course you want let me first understand you I replied let me first understand you I replied let me first understand you I replied Justice as you say is the interest of Justice as you say is the interest of Justice as you say is the interest of the stronger what fruss amicus is the the stronger what fruss amicus is the the stronger what fruss amicus is the meaning of this you cannot mean to say meaning of this you cannot mean to say meaning of this you cannot mean to say that because pali Damas the pancreas is that because pali Damas the pancreas is that because pali Damas the pancreas is stronger than we are and finds the stronger than we are and finds the stronger than we are and finds the eating of beef conducive to his bodily eating of beef conducive to his bodily eating of beef conducive to his bodily strength better eat beef is therefore strength better eat beef is therefore strength better eat beef is therefore equally for our good who are weaker than equally for our good who are weaker than equally for our good who are weaker than he is and right and just for us he is and right and just for us he is and right and just for us that's abominable of you Socrates you that's abominable of you Socrates you that's abominable of you Socrates you take the words in the sense which is take the words in the sense which is take the words in the sense which is most damaging to the argument not at all most damaging to the argument not at all most damaging to the argument not at all my good sir I said I am trying to

my good sir I said I am trying to my good sir I said I am trying to understand them and I wish that you understand them and I wish that you understand them and I wish that you would be a little clearer well he said would be a little clearer well he said would be a little clearer well he said have you never heard that forms of have you never heard that forms of have you never heard that forms of government differ government differ government differ there are tyrannies and there are there are tyrannies and there are there are tyrannies and there are democracies and there are aristocracies democracies and there are aristocracies democracies and there are aristocracies yes I know and the government is the yes I know and the government is the yes I know and the government is the ruling power in each state certainly and ruling power in each state certainly and ruling power in each state certainly and the different forms of government make the different forms of government make the different forms of government make laws democratical aristocratic all laws democratical aristocratic all laws democratical aristocratic all tyrannical with a view to their several tyrannical with a view to their several tyrannical with a view to their several interests and these laws which are made interests and these laws which are made interests and these laws which are made by them for their own interests or the by them for their own interests or the by them for their own interests or the Justice which they deliver to their Justice which they deliver to their Justice which they deliver to their subjects and him who transgresses them subjects and him who transgresses them subjects and him who transgresses them they punish as a breaker of the law and they punish as a breaker of the law and they punish as a breaker of the law and unjust and that is what I mean when I unjust and that is what I mean when I unjust and that is what I mean when I say that in all states there is the same say that in all states there is the same say that in all states there is the same principle of Justice which is the principle of Justice which is the principle of Justice which is the interest of the government and as the interest of the government and as the interest of the government and as the government must be supposed to have government must be supposed to have government must be supposed to have power the only reasonable conclusion is power the only reasonable conclusion is power the only reasonable conclusion is that everywhere there is one principle that everywhere there is one principle that everywhere there is one principle of Justice which is the interest of the of Justice which is the interest of the of Justice which is the interest of the stronger now I understand you I said and stronger now I understand you I said and stronger now I understand you I said and whether you are right or not I will try whether you are right or not I will try whether you are right or not I will try to discover but let me remark that in to discover but let me remark that in to discover but let me remark that in defining justice you have yourself used defining justice you have yourself used defining justice you have yourself used the word interest which you forbade me the word interest which you forbade me the word interest which you forbade me to use it is true however that in your to use it is true however that in your to use it is true however that in your definition the words of the stronger are definition the words of the stronger are definition the words of the stronger are added a small addition you must allow he added a small addition you must allow he added a small addition you must allow he said great or small never mind about said great or small never mind about said great or small never mind about that we must first enquire whether what that we must first enquire whether what that we must first enquire whether what you are saying is the truth now we are

you are saying is the truth now we are you are saying is the truth now we are both agreed that justice is interest of both agreed that justice is interest of both agreed that justice is interest of some sort but you go on to say of the some sort but you go on to say of the some sort but you go on to say of the stronger about this addition I am not so stronger about this addition I am not so stronger about this addition I am not so sure and must therefore consider further sure and must therefore consider further sure and must therefore consider further proceed I will and first tell me do you proceed I will and first tell me do you proceed I will and first tell me do you admit that it is just for subjects to admit that it is just for subjects to admit that it is just for subjects to obey their rulers I do but are the obey their rulers I do but are the obey their rulers I do but are the rulers of states absolutely infallible rulers of states absolutely infallible rulers of states absolutely infallible or are they sometimes liable to err to or are they sometimes liable to err to or are they sometimes liable to err to be sure they replied they are likely to be sure they replied they are likely to be sure they replied they are likely to her then in making their laws they may her then in making their laws they may her then in making their laws they may sometimes make them rightly and sometimes make them rightly and sometimes make them rightly and sometimes not true when they make them sometimes not true when they make them sometimes not true when they make them rightly they make them agreeable to rightly they make them agreeable to rightly they make them agreeable to their interest when they are mistaken their interest when they are mistaken their interest when they are mistaken contrary to their interest you admit contrary to their interest you admit contrary to their interest you admit that yes and the laws which they make that yes and the laws which they make that yes and the laws which they make must be obeyed by their subjects and must be obeyed by their subjects and must be obeyed by their subjects and that is what you call justice doubtless that is what you call justice doubtless that is what you call justice doubtless then justice according to your argument then justice according to your argument then justice according to your argument is not only obedience to the interest of is not only obedience to the interest of is not only obedience to the interest of the stronger but the river the stronger but the river the stronger but the river what is that you are saying he asked I what is that you are saying he asked I what is that you are saying he asked I am only repeating what you are saying I am only repeating what you are saying I am only repeating what you are saying I believe but let us consider have we not believe but let us consider have we not believe but let us consider have we not admitted that the rulers may be mistaken admitted that the rulers may be mistaken admitted that the rulers may be mistaken about their own interest in what they about their own interest in what they about their own interest in what they command and also that to obey them is command and also that to obey them is command and also that to obey them is justice has not that been admitted yes justice has not that been admitted yes justice has not that been admitted yes then you must also have acknowledged then you must also have acknowledged then you must also have acknowledged justice not to be for the interest of justice not to be for the interest of justice not to be for the interest of the stronger when the rulers

the stronger when the rulers the stronger when the rulers intentionally command things to be done intentionally command things to be done intentionally command things to be done which are to their own injury for if as which are to their own injury for if as which are to their own injury for if as you say justice is the obedience which you say justice is the obedience which you say justice is the obedience which the subject renders to their commands in the subject renders to their commands in the subject renders to their commands in that case o wisest of men is there any that case o wisest of men is there any that case o wisest of men is there any escape from the conclusion that the escape from the conclusion that the escape from the conclusion that the weaker are commanded to do not what is weaker are commanded to do not what is weaker are commanded to do not what is for the interest but what is for the for the interest but what is for the for the interest but what is for the injury of the stronger nothing can be injury of the stronger nothing can be injury of the stronger nothing can be clearer Socrates said polemarchus clearer Socrates said polemarchus clearer Socrates said polemarchus yes said quite a fun interposing if you yes said quite a fun interposing if you yes said quite a fun interposing if you are allowed to be his witness but there are allowed to be his witness but there are allowed to be his witness but there is no need of any witness said is no need of any witness said is no need of any witness said polemarchus fortress images himself polemarchus fortress images himself polemarchus fortress images himself acknowledges that brewer's may sometimes acknowledges that brewer's may sometimes acknowledges that brewer's may sometimes command what is not for their own command what is not for their own command what is not for their own interest and that for subjects to obey interest and that for subjects to obey interest and that for subjects to obey them is justice yes Paulo Marcos them is justice yes Paulo Marcos them is justice yes Paulo Marcos Thrasymachus said that for subjects to Thrasymachus said that for subjects to Thrasymachus said that for subjects to do what was commanded by their rulers is do what was commanded by their rulers is do what was commanded by their rulers is just yes quite a fun but he also said just yes quite a fun but he also said just yes quite a fun but he also said that justice is the interest of the that justice is the interest of the that justice is the interest of the stronger and while admitting both these stronger and while admitting both these stronger and while admitting both these propositions propositions propositions he further acknowledged that the he further acknowledged that the he further acknowledged that the stronger may command the weak who are stronger may command the weak who are stronger may command the weak who are his subjects to do what is not for his his subjects to do what is not for his his subjects to do what is not for his own interest whence follows that justice own interest whence follows that justice own interest whence follows that justice is the injury quite as much as the is the injury quite as much as the is the injury quite as much as the interest of the stronger but said Clara interest of the stronger but said Clara interest of the stronger but said Clara fond he meant by the interest of the fond he meant by the interest of the fond he meant by the interest of the stronger what the stronger thought to be stronger what the stronger thought to be stronger what the stronger thought to be his interest this is what the weaker had his interest this is what the weaker had his interest this is what the weaker had to do and this was affirmed by him to be to do and this was affirmed by him to be to do and this was affirmed by him to be justice those were not his words justice those were not his words justice those were not his words rejoined Paulo Marcos never mind rejoined Paulo Marcos never mind rejoined Paulo Marcos never mind I replied if he now says that they are

I replied if he now says that they are I replied if he now says that they are let us accept his statement let us accept his statement let us accept his statement tell me through Silica's I said did you tell me through Silica's I said did you tell me through Silica's I said did you mean by justice what the stronger mean by justice what the stronger mean by justice what the stronger thought to be his interest whether thought to be his interest whether thought to be his interest whether really so or not or certainly not he really so or not or certainly not he really so or not or certainly not he said do you suppose that I call him who said do you suppose that I call him who said do you suppose that I call him who is mistaken the stronger at the time is mistaken the stronger at the time is mistaken the stronger at the time when he is mistaken yes I said my when he is mistaken yes I said my when he is mistaken yes I said my impression was that you did sir when you impression was that you did sir when you impression was that you did sir when you admitted that the ruler was not admitted that the ruler was not admitted that the ruler was not infallible that might be sometimes infallible that might be sometimes infallible that might be sometimes mistaken you argue like an informer mistaken you argue like an informer mistaken you argue like an informer Socrates do you mean for example that he Socrates do you mean for example that he Socrates do you mean for example that he who is mistaken who is mistaken who is mistaken about the sick is a physician in that he about the sick is a physician in that he about the sick is a physician in that he is mistaken or that he who earns in is mistaken or that he who earns in is mistaken or that he who earns in arithmetic or grammar is an arithmetic arithmetic or grammar is an arithmetic arithmetic or grammar is an arithmetic nor grammarian at the time when he is nor grammarian at the time when he is nor grammarian at the time when he is making the mistake in respect of the making the mistake in respect of the making the mistake in respect of the mistake true we say that the physician mistake true we say that the physician mistake true we say that the physician or arithmetic nor grammarian has made a or arithmetic nor grammarian has made a or arithmetic nor grammarian has made a mistake mistake mistake but this is only a way of speaking for but this is only a way of speaking for but this is only a way of speaking for the fact is that neither the grammarian the fact is that neither the grammarian the fact is that neither the grammarian or any other person of skill ever makes or any other person of skill ever makes or any other person of skill ever makes a mistake insofar as he is what his name a mistake insofar as he is what his name a mistake insofar as he is what his name implies they none of them earn unless implies they none of them earn unless implies they none of them earn unless their skill fails them and then they their skill fails them and then they their skill fails them and then they cease to be skilled artists no artist or cease to be skilled artists no artist or cease to be skilled artists no artist or sage or ruler earns at the time when he sage or ruler earns at the time when he sage or ruler earns at the time when he is what his name implies though he is is what his name implies though he is is what his name implies though he is commonly said to her and I adopted the commonly said to her and I adopted the commonly said to her and I adopted the common mode of speaking but to be common mode of speaking but to be common mode of speaking but to be perfectly accurate since you are such a perfectly accurate since you are such a perfectly accurate since you are such a lover of accuracy we should say that the lover of accuracy we should say that the lover of accuracy we should say that the ruler in so far as he is a ruler is

ruler in so far as he is a ruler is ruler in so far as he is a ruler is unerring and being unerring always unerring and being unerring always unerring and being unerring always commands that which is for his own commands that which is for his own commands that which is for his own interest and the subject is required to interest and the subject is required to interest and the subject is required to execute his commands and therefore as I execute his commands and therefore as I execute his commands and therefore as I said at first and now repeat justice is said at first and now repeat justice is said at first and now repeat justice is the interest of the stronger indeed the interest of the stronger indeed the interest of the stronger indeed through Simic us the new I really appear through Simic us the new I really appear through Simic us the new I really appear to you to argue like an informer to you to argue like an informer to you to argue like an informer certainly he replied and do you suppose certainly he replied and do you suppose certainly he replied and do you suppose that I ask these questions with any that I ask these questions with any that I ask these questions with any design of injuring you in the argument design of injuring you in the argument design of injuring you in the argument nay he replied suppose is not the word I nay he replied suppose is not the word I nay he replied suppose is not the word I know it but you will be found out and by know it but you will be found out and by know it but you will be found out and by sheer force of argument you will never sheer force of argument you will never sheer force of argument you will never prevail I shall not make the attempt My prevail I shall not make the attempt My prevail I shall not make the attempt My dear man but to avoid any dear man but to avoid any dear man but to avoid any misunderstanding occurring between us in misunderstanding occurring between us in misunderstanding occurring between us in future future future let me ask in what sense do you speak of let me ask in what sense do you speak of let me ask in what sense do you speak of a ruler or stronger whose interest as a ruler or stronger whose interest as a ruler or stronger whose interest as you were saying he being the superior it you were saying he being the superior it you were saying he being the superior it is just that the inferior should execute is just that the inferior should execute is just that the inferior should execute his he a ruler in the popular or in the his he a ruler in the popular or in the his he a ruler in the popular or in the strict sense of the term in the strict sense of the term in the strict sense of the term in the strictest of all senses he said and now strictest of all senses he said and now strictest of all senses he said and now cheat and play the informer if you can I cheat and play the informer if you can I cheat and play the informer if you can I ask no quarter at your hands but you ask no quarter at your hands but you ask no quarter at your hands but you never will be able never and do you never will be able never and do you never will be able never and do you imagine imagine imagine I said that I am such a madman as to try I said that I am such a madman as to try I said that I am such a madman as to try and cheat through some bogus I might as and cheat through some bogus I might as and cheat through some bogus I might as well shave a lion why he said you made well shave a lion why he said you made well shave a lion why he said you made the attempt a minute ago and you failed the attempt a minute ago and you failed the attempt a minute ago and you failed enough I said of these civilities it

enough I said of these civilities it enough I said of these civilities it will be better than I should ask you a will be better than I should ask you a will be better than I should ask you a question is the physician taken in that question is the physician taken in that question is the physician taken in that strict sense of which you were speaking strict sense of which you were speaking strict sense of which you were speaking a healer of the sick or a maker of money a healer of the sick or a maker of money a healer of the sick or a maker of money and remember that I am now speaking of and remember that I am now speaking of and remember that I am now speaking of the true physician a healer of a sick he the true physician a healer of a sick he the true physician a healer of a sick he replied and the pilot that is to say the replied and the pilot that is to say the replied and the pilot that is to say the true pilot is he a captain of sailors or true pilot is he a captain of sailors or true pilot is he a captain of sailors or a mere sailor a captain of sailors the a mere sailor a captain of sailors the a mere sailor a captain of sailors the circumstance that he sails in the ship circumstance that he sails in the ship circumstance that he sails in the ship is not to be taken into account neither is not to be taken into account neither is not to be taken into account neither is he to be called a sailor the named is he to be called a sailor the named is he to be called a sailor the named pilot by which he is distinguished has pilot by which he is distinguished has pilot by which he is distinguished has nothing to do with sailing but his nothing to do with sailing but his nothing to do with sailing but his significant of his skill and of his significant of his skill and of his significant of his skill and of his authority over the sailors very true he authority over the sailors very true he authority over the sailors very true he said now I said every art has an said now I said every art has an said now I said every art has an interest certainly for which the art has interest certainly for which the art has interest certainly for which the art has to consider and provide yes that is the to consider and provide yes that is the to consider and provide yes that is the aim of art and the interest of any art aim of art and the interest of any art aim of art and the interest of any art is the perfection of it this and nothing is the perfection of it this and nothing is the perfection of it this and nothing else what do you mean I mean what I may else what do you mean I mean what I may else what do you mean I mean what I may illustrate negatively by the example of illustrate negatively by the example of illustrate negatively by the example of the body suppose you were to ask me what the body suppose you were to ask me what the body suppose you were to ask me what if the body is self-sufficing more has if the body is self-sufficing more has if the body is self-sufficing more has once I should reply certainly the body once I should reply certainly the body once I should reply certainly the body has once for the body may be ill and has once for the body may be ill and has once for the body may be ill and required to be cured and has therefore required to be cured and has therefore required to be cured and has therefore interests to which the art of medicine interests to which the art of medicine interests to which the art of medicine ministers and this is the origin and ministers and this is the origin and ministers and this is the origin and intention of medicine as you will intention of medicine as you will intention of medicine as you will acknowledge am i right quite right it acknowledge am i right quite right it acknowledge am i right quite right it replied but is the art of medicine or replied but is the art of medicine or replied but is the art of medicine or any other art faulty or deficient in any

any other art faulty or deficient in any any other art faulty or deficient in any quality in the same way that the eye may quality in the same way that the eye may quality in the same way that the eye may be deficient in sight or the ear fail of be deficient in sight or the ear fail of be deficient in sight or the ear fail of hearing and therefore requires another hearing and therefore requires another hearing and therefore requires another art to provide for the interests of art to provide for the interests of art to provide for the interests of seeing and hearing has art in itself I seeing and hearing has art in itself I seeing and hearing has art in itself I say any similar liability to fault or say any similar liability to fault or say any similar liability to fault or defect and as every art require another defect and as every art require another defect and as every art require another supplementary art to provide for its supplementary art to provide for its supplementary art to provide for its interests and that another and another interests and that another and another interests and that another and another without end or have the arts to look without end or have the arts to look without end or have the arts to look only after their own interests or have only after their own interests or have only after their own interests or have they no need either of themselves or of they no need either of themselves or of they no need either of themselves or of another having no faults or defects they another having no faults or defects they another having no faults or defects they have no need to correct them either by have no need to correct them either by have no need to correct them either by the exercise of their own art or of any the exercise of their own art or of any the exercise of their own art or of any other they have only to consider the other they have only to consider the other they have only to consider the interest of their subject matter for interest of their subject matter for interest of their subject matter for every art remains pure and faultless every art remains pure and faultless every art remains pure and faultless while remaining true that is to say while remaining true that is to say while remaining true that is to say while perfect and unimpaired take the while perfect and unimpaired take the while perfect and unimpaired take the words in your precise sense and tell me words in your precise sense and tell me words in your precise sense and tell me whether I am NOT right yes clearly then whether I am NOT right yes clearly then whether I am NOT right yes clearly then medicine does not consider the interest medicine does not consider the interest medicine does not consider the interest of medicine but the interest of the body of medicine but the interest of the body of medicine but the interest of the body true he said nor does the art of true he said nor does the art of true he said nor does the art of horsemanship consider the interests of horsemanship consider the interests of horsemanship consider the interests of the art of horsemanship but the the art of horsemanship but the the art of horsemanship but the interests of the horse neither do any interests of the horse neither do any interests of the horse neither do any other arts care for themselves for they other arts care for themselves for they other arts care for themselves for they have no needs they care only for that have no needs they care only for that have no needs they care only for that which is the subject of their art true which is the subject of their art true which is the subject of their art true he said but surely Thrasymachus the arts he said but surely Thrasymachus the arts he said but surely Thrasymachus the arts are the superiors and rulers of their are the superiors and rulers of their are the superiors and rulers of their own subjects to this he assented with a own subjects to this he assented with a own subjects to this he assented with a good deal of reluctance then I said no

good deal of reluctance then I said no good deal of reluctance then I said no science or art considers or enjoys the science or art considers or enjoys the science or art considers or enjoys the interest of the stronger or superior but interest of the stronger or superior but interest of the stronger or superior but only the interest of the subjects and only the interest of the subjects and only the interest of the subjects and the weaker he made an attempt to contest the weaker he made an attempt to contest the weaker he made an attempt to contest this proposition also but finally this proposition also but finally this proposition also but finally acquiesced then I continued no physician acquiesced then I continued no physician acquiesced then I continued no physician in so far as he is a physician considers in so far as he is a physician considers in so far as he is a physician considers his own good and what he prescribes but his own good and what he prescribes but his own good and what he prescribes but the good of his patient but the true the good of his patient but the true the good of his patient but the true physician is also a brewer having the physician is also a brewer having the physician is also a brewer having the human body as a subject and he is not a human body as a subject and he is not a human body as a subject and he is not a mere moneymaker that has been admitted mere moneymaker that has been admitted mere moneymaker that has been admitted yes and the pilot likewise in the strict yes and the pilot likewise in the strict yes and the pilot likewise in the strict sense of the term is a ruler of sailors sense of the term is a ruler of sailors sense of the term is a ruler of sailors and not a mere sailor that has been and not a mere sailor that has been and not a mere sailor that has been admitted and such a pilot and ruler will admitted and such a pilot and ruler will admitted and such a pilot and ruler will provide and prescribe for the interests provide and prescribe for the interests provide and prescribe for the interests of the sailor who was under him and not of the sailor who was under him and not of the sailor who was under him and not for his own or the rulers interest for his own or the rulers interest for his own or the rulers interest he gave a reluctance yes then I said for he gave a reluctance yes then I said for he gave a reluctance yes then I said for Silica's there is no one in any rule who Silica's there is no one in any rule who Silica's there is no one in any rule who in so far as he is a ruler considers or in so far as he is a ruler considers or in so far as he is a ruler considers or enjoy enjoy enjoy what is for his own interest but always what is for his own interest but always what is for his own interest but always what is for the interest of his subject what is for the interest of his subject what is for the interest of his subject or suitable to his art to that he looks or suitable to his art to that he looks or suitable to his art to that he looks and that alone he considers in and that alone he considers in and that alone he considers in everything which he says and does book 1 the part 2 of the Republic by book 1 the part 2 of the Republic by Plato this LibriVox recording is in the

Plato this LibriVox recording is in the Plato this LibriVox recording is in the public domain read by Bob Neufeld when we had got to this point in the when we had got to this point in the arguments and everyone saw that the arguments and everyone saw that the arguments and everyone saw that the definition of justice have been definition of justice have been definition of justice have been completely upset to Symmachus instead of completely upset to Symmachus instead of completely upset to Symmachus instead of replying to me said tell me Socrates replying to me said tell me Socrates replying to me said tell me Socrates have you got a nurse why do you ask such have you got a nurse why do you ask such have you got a nurse why do you ask such a question I said when you aren't rather a question I said when you aren't rather a question I said when you aren't rather to be answering because she leaves you to be answering because she leaves you to be answering because she leaves you to sniffle that never wipes your nose to sniffle that never wipes your nose to sniffle that never wipes your nose she has not even taught you to know the she has not even taught you to know the she has not even taught you to know the Shepherd from the Sheep what makes you Shepherd from the Sheep what makes you Shepherd from the Sheep what makes you say that say that say that I replied because you fancy that the I replied because you fancy that the I replied because you fancy that the shepherd or nice herd fattens or tens shepherd or nice herd fattens or tens shepherd or nice herd fattens or tens the sheep or oxen with a view to their the sheep or oxen with a view to their the sheep or oxen with a view to their own good and not to the good of himself own good and not to the good of himself own good and not to the good of himself or his master and you further imagine or his master and you further imagine or his master and you further imagine that the rulers of states if they are that the rulers of states if they are that the rulers of states if they are true rulers never think of their true rulers never think of their true rulers never think of their subjects as sheep and that they are not subjects as sheep and that they are not subjects as sheep and that they are not studying their own advantage day at studying their own advantage day at studying their own advantage day at night Oh No night Oh No night Oh No and so entirely astray are you and your and so entirely astray are you and your and so entirely astray are you and your ideas about the just and unjust as not ideas about the just and unjust as not ideas about the just and unjust as not even to know that justice and the just even to know that justice and the just even to know that justice and the just are in reality another's good that is to are in reality another's good that is to are in reality another's good that is to say the interest of the ruler and say the interest of the ruler and say the interest of the ruler and stronger and the loss of the subject and stronger and the loss of the subject and stronger and the loss of the subject and the servant and in justice the opposite the servant and in justice the opposite the servant and in justice the opposite for the unjust is lord over the truly for the unjust is lord over the truly for the unjust is lord over the truly simple and just he is the stronger and simple and just he is the stronger and simple and just he is the stronger and his subjects do what is for his his subjects do what is for his his subjects do what is for his interests had ministered to his interests had ministered to his interests had ministered to his happiness which is very far from being

happiness which is very far from being happiness which is very far from being their own consider further most foolish their own consider further most foolish their own consider further most foolish Socrates that the just is always a loser Socrates that the just is always a loser Socrates that the just is always a loser in comparison with the unjust in comparison with the unjust in comparison with the unjust first of all in private contracts first of all in private contracts first of all in private contracts wherever the unjust is the partner of wherever the unjust is the partner of wherever the unjust is the partner of the just you will find that when the the just you will find that when the the just you will find that when the partnership is dissolved the unjust man partnership is dissolved the unjust man partnership is dissolved the unjust man has always more and the just less has always more and the just less has always more and the just less secondly in their dealings with the secondly in their dealings with the secondly in their dealings with the state when there is an income tax the state when there is an income tax the state when there is an income tax the just man will pay more than the unjust just man will pay more than the unjust just man will pay more than the unjust less on the same amount of income and less on the same amount of income and less on the same amount of income and when there is anything to be received when there is anything to be received when there is anything to be received the one gains nothing and the other much the one gains nothing and the other much the one gains nothing and the other much observe also what happens when they take observe also what happens when they take observe also what happens when they take an office there is the just man an office there is the just man an office there is the just man neglecting his affairs and perhaps neglecting his affairs and perhaps neglecting his affairs and perhaps suffering other losses suffering other losses suffering other losses and getting nothing out of the public and getting nothing out of the public and getting nothing out of the public because he is just moreover he is hated because he is just moreover he is hated because he is just moreover he is hated by his friends and acquaintances for by his friends and acquaintances for by his friends and acquaintances for refusing to serve them in unlawful ways refusing to serve them in unlawful ways refusing to serve them in unlawful ways but all this is reversed in the case of but all this is reversed in the case of but all this is reversed in the case of the unjust man I am speaking as before the unjust man I am speaking as before the unjust man I am speaking as before of injustice on a large scale in which of injustice on a large scale in which of injustice on a large scale in which the advantage of the unjust is most the advantage of the unjust is most the advantage of the unjust is most apparent and my meaning will be most apparent and my meaning will be most apparent and my meaning will be most clearly seen if we turn to that highest clearly seen if we turn to that highest clearly seen if we turn to that highest form of injustice in which the criminal form of injustice in which the criminal form of injustice in which the criminal is the happiest of men and the sufferers is the happiest of men and the sufferers is the happiest of men and the sufferers or those who refuse to do injustice are or those who refuse to do injustice are or those who refuse to do injustice are the most miserable the most miserable the most miserable that is to say tyranny which by fraud that is to say tyranny which by fraud that is to say tyranny which by fraud and force takes away the property of and force takes away the property of and force takes away the property of others not little by little but

others not little by little but others not little by little but wholesale comprehending in one things wholesale comprehending in one things wholesale comprehending in one things sacred as well as profane private and sacred as well as profane private and sacred as well as profane private and public for which acts of wrong if he public for which acts of wrong if he public for which acts of wrong if he were detected perpetrating any of them were detected perpetrating any of them were detected perpetrating any of them singly he would be punished and incur singly he would be punished and incur singly he would be punished and incur great disgrace they who do such wrong in great disgrace they who do such wrong in great disgrace they who do such wrong in particular cases are called robbers of particular cases are called robbers of particular cases are called robbers of temples and man stealers and burglars temples and man stealers and burglars temples and man stealers and burglars and swindlers and thieves but when a man and swindlers and thieves but when a man and swindlers and thieves but when a man besides taking away the money of the besides taking away the money of the besides taking away the money of the citizens has made slaves of them then citizens has made slaves of them then citizens has made slaves of them then instead of these names of reproach he is instead of these names of reproach he is instead of these names of reproach he is termed happy and blessed and not only by termed happy and blessed and not only by termed happy and blessed and not only by the citizens but by all who hear of his the citizens but by all who hear of his the citizens but by all who hear of his having achieved the consummation of having achieved the consummation of having achieved the consummation of injustice for mankind censure injustice injustice for mankind censure injustice injustice for mankind censure injustice fearing that they may be the victims of fearing that they may be the victims of fearing that they may be the victims of it and not because they shrink from it and not because they shrink from it and not because they shrink from committing it and thus I have shown committing it and thus I have shown committing it and thus I have shown Socrates injustice when on a sufficient Socrates injustice when on a sufficient Socrates injustice when on a sufficient scale has more strength and freedom and scale has more strength and freedom and scale has more strength and freedom and mastery than justice and as I said that mastery than justice and as I said that mastery than justice and as I said that first justice is the interest of a first justice is the interest of a first justice is the interest of a stronger stronger stronger whereas injustice is a man's own profits whereas injustice is a man's own profits whereas injustice is a man's own profits and interest when he had thus spoken having like a when he had thus spoken having like a bath man deluged our ears with his words bath man deluged our ears with his words bath man deluged our ears with his words had a mind to go away but the company had a mind to go away but the company had a mind to go away but the company would not let him they insisted that he would not let him they insisted that he would not let him they insisted that he should remain and defend his position should remain and defend his position should remain and defend his position and I myself added my own humble request and I myself added my own humble request and I myself added my own humble request that he would not leave us to Symmachus that he would not leave us to Symmachus that he would not leave us to Symmachus I said to him excellent man how

I said to him excellent man how I said to him excellent man how suggestive are your remarks and are you suggestive are your remarks and are you suggestive are your remarks and are you going to run away before you have family going to run away before you have family going to run away before you have family taught and learned whether they are true taught and learned whether they are true taught and learned whether they are true or not is the attempt to determine the or not is the attempt to determine the or not is the attempt to determine the way of man's life so small a matter in way of man's life so small a matter in way of man's life so small a matter in your eyes to determine how life may be your eyes to determine how life may be your eyes to determine how life may be passed by each one of us to the greatest passed by each one of us to the greatest passed by each one of us to the greatest advantage and do I differ from you he advantage and do I differ from you he advantage and do I differ from you he said as to the importance of the inquiry said as to the importance of the inquiry said as to the importance of the inquiry you appear rather I replied to have no you appear rather I replied to have no you appear rather I replied to have no care or thought about us care or thought about us care or thought about us Kissimmee cos whether we live better or Kissimmee cos whether we live better or Kissimmee cos whether we live better or worse from not knowing what you say you worse from not knowing what you say you worse from not knowing what you say you know is to you a matter of indifference know is to you a matter of indifference know is to you a matter of indifference pray thee friend do not keep your pray thee friend do not keep your pray thee friend do not keep your knowledge to yourself we are a large knowledge to yourself we are a large knowledge to yourself we are a large party and any benefit which you confer party and any benefit which you confer party and any benefit which you confer upon us will be amply rewarded for my upon us will be amply rewarded for my upon us will be amply rewarded for my own part I openly declare that I am not own part I openly declare that I am not own part I openly declare that I am not convinced and that I do not believe in convinced and that I do not believe in convinced and that I do not believe in justice to be more gainful than justice justice to be more gainful than justice justice to be more gainful than justice even if uncontrolled and allowed to have even if uncontrolled and allowed to have even if uncontrolled and allowed to have free play for granting that there may be free play for granting that there may be free play for granting that there may be an unjust man who is able to commit an unjust man who is able to commit an unjust man who is able to commit injustice either by fraud or force still injustice either by fraud or force still injustice either by fraud or force still this does not convince me of the this does not convince me of the this does not convince me of the superior advantage of injustice and superior advantage of injustice and superior advantage of injustice and there may be others who are on the same there may be others who are on the same there may be others who are on the same predicament as myself perhaps we may be predicament as myself perhaps we may be predicament as myself perhaps we may be wrong if so you in your wisdom should wrong if so you in your wisdom should wrong if so you in your wisdom should convince us that we are mistaken in convince us that we are mistaken in convince us that we are mistaken in preferring justice to injustice and how preferring justice to injustice and how preferring justice to injustice and how am I to convince you he said if you are

am I to convince you he said if you are am I to convince you he said if you are not already convinced by what I have not already convinced by what I have not already convinced by what I have just said what more can I do for you just said what more can I do for you just said what more can I do for you would you have me put the proof bodily would you have me put the proof bodily would you have me put the proof bodily into your souls heaven forbid I said I into your souls heaven forbid I said I into your souls heaven forbid I said I would only ask you to be consistent or would only ask you to be consistent or would only ask you to be consistent or if you change change openly and let if you change change openly and let if you change change openly and let there be no deception for I must remark there be no deception for I must remark there be no deception for I must remark Thrasymachus if you will recall what was Thrasymachus if you will recall what was Thrasymachus if you will recall what was previously said that although you began previously said that although you began previously said that although you began by defining the true physician in an by defining the true physician in an by defining the true physician in an exact sense you do not observe a like exact sense you do not observe a like exact sense you do not observe a like exactness when speaking of the Shepherd exactness when speaking of the Shepherd exactness when speaking of the Shepherd you thought that the Shepherd as a you thought that the Shepherd as a you thought that the Shepherd as a shepherd tends the sheep not with a view shepherd tends the sheep not with a view shepherd tends the sheep not with a view to their own good but more like a diner to their own good but more like a diner to their own good but more like a diner or banquet or with a view to the or banquet or with a view to the or banquet or with a view to the pleasures of the table or again as a pleasures of the table or again as a pleasures of the table or again as a trader for sale in the market and not as trader for sale in the market and not as trader for sale in the market and not as a shepherd yet surely the art of the a shepherd yet surely the art of the a shepherd yet surely the art of the Shepherd is concerned only with the good Shepherd is concerned only with the good Shepherd is concerned only with the good of his subjects he has only to provide of his subjects he has only to provide of his subjects he has only to provide the best for them since the perfection the best for them since the perfection the best for them since the perfection of the art is already ensured whenever of the art is already ensured whenever of the art is already ensured whenever all the requirements of it are satisfied all the requirements of it are satisfied all the requirements of it are satisfied and that was what I was saying just now and that was what I was saying just now and that was what I was saying just now about the ruler I conceive that the art about the ruler I conceive that the art about the ruler I conceive that the art of the ruler considered as ruler whether of the ruler considered as ruler whether of the ruler considered as ruler whether in a state or in private life can only in a state or in private life can only in a state or in private life can only regard the good of his flock or subjects regard the good of his flock or subjects regard the good of his flock or subjects whereas you seem to think that the whereas you seem to think that the whereas you seem to think that the rulers in states that is to say the true rulers in states that is to say the true rulers in states that is to say the true rulers like being in authority think nay rulers like being in authority think nay rulers like being in authority think nay I am sure of it I am sure of it I am sure of it then why in the case of lesser offices

then why in the case of lesser offices then why in the case of lesser offices do men never take them willingly without do men never take them willingly without do men never take them willingly without payment unless under the idea that they payment unless under the idea that they payment unless under the idea that they govern for the advantage not of govern for the advantage not of govern for the advantage not of themselves but of others let me ask you themselves but of others let me ask you themselves but of others let me ask you a question are not the several arts a question are not the several arts a question are not the several arts difference by reason of their each difference by reason of their each difference by reason of their each having a separate function and my dear having a separate function and my dear having a separate function and my dear illustrious friend do say what you think illustrious friend do say what you think illustrious friend do say what you think that we may make a little progress yes that we may make a little progress yes that we may make a little progress yes that is the difference he replied that that is the difference he replied that that is the difference he replied that each art gives us a particular good and each art gives us a particular good and each art gives us a particular good and not merely a general one medicine for not merely a general one medicine for not merely a general one medicine for example gives us health navigation example gives us health navigation example gives us health navigation safety at sea and so on yes he said and safety at sea and so on yes he said and safety at sea and so on yes he said and the art of payments has a special the art of payments has a special the art of payments has a special function of giving pay but we do not function of giving pay but we do not function of giving pay but we do not confuse this with other arts any more confuse this with other arts any more confuse this with other arts any more than the art of the pilot is to be than the art of the pilot is to be than the art of the pilot is to be confused with the art of medicine confused with the art of medicine confused with the art of medicine because the health of the pilot may be because the health of the pilot may be because the health of the pilot may be improved by a sea voyage you would not improved by a sea voyage you would not improved by a sea voyage you would not be inclined to say would you that be inclined to say would you that be inclined to say would you that navigation is the art of medicine at navigation is the art of medicine at navigation is the art of medicine at least if we are to adopt your exact use least if we are to adopt your exact use least if we are to adopt your exact use of language certainly not oh because a of language certainly not oh because a of language certainly not oh because a man is in good health when he receives man is in good health when he receives man is in good health when he receives pay you would not say that the art of pay you would not say that the art of pay you would not say that the art of payment is medicine payment is medicine payment is medicine I should not nor would you say that I should not nor would you say that I should not nor would you say that medicine is the art of receiving pay medicine is the art of receiving pay medicine is the art of receiving pay because a man takes fees when he is because a man takes fees when he is because a man takes fees when he is engaged in healing certainly not and we engaged in healing certainly not and we engaged in healing certainly not and we have admitted I said that the good of have admitted I said that the good of have admitted I said that the good of each art is specially confined to the

each art is specially confined to the each art is specially confined to the art yes then if there be any good which art yes then if there be any good which art yes then if there be any good which all artists have in common that is to be all artists have in common that is to be all artists have in common that is to be attributed to something of which they attributed to something of which they attributed to something of which they all have the common use all have the common use all have the common use true he replied and when the artist is true he replied and when the artist is true he replied and when the artist is benefited by receiving payee the benefited by receiving payee the benefited by receiving payee the advantage is gained by an additional use advantage is gained by an additional use advantage is gained by an additional use of the art of pay which is not the art of the art of pay which is not the art of the art of pay which is not the art professed by him he gave a reluctant professed by him he gave a reluctant professed by him he gave a reluctant assent to this then the pay is not assent to this then the pay is not assent to this then the pay is not derived by the several artists from derived by the several artists from derived by the several artists from their respective arts but the truth is their respective arts but the truth is their respective arts but the truth is that while the art of medicine gives that while the art of medicine gives that while the art of medicine gives health and the art of the Builder builds health and the art of the Builder builds health and the art of the Builder builds a house another art attends them which a house another art attends them which a house another art attends them which is the art of pay the various arts may is the art of pay the various arts may is the art of pay the various arts may be doing their own business and be doing their own business and be doing their own business and benefiting that over which they preside benefiting that over which they preside benefiting that over which they preside but wouldn't the artist receive any but wouldn't the artist receive any but wouldn't the artist receive any benefit from his arts unless he were benefit from his arts unless he were benefit from his arts unless he were paid as well I suppose not but does he paid as well I suppose not but does he paid as well I suppose not but does he therefore confer no benefit when he therefore confer no benefit when he therefore confer no benefit when he works for nothing works for nothing works for nothing certainly he confers a benefit then now certainly he confers a benefit then now certainly he confers a benefit then now Theresa MCUs there is no longer any Theresa MCUs there is no longer any Theresa MCUs there is no longer any doubts that neither arts nor governments doubts that neither arts nor governments doubts that neither arts nor governments provide for their own interests but as provide for their own interests but as provide for their own interests but as we were before saying they rule and we were before saying they rule and we were before saying they rule and provide for the interests of their provide for the interests of their provide for the interests of their subjects who are the weaker and not the subjects who are the weaker and not the subjects who are the weaker and not the stronger - they're good they attend and stronger - they're good they attend and stronger - they're good they attend and not to the good of the superior and this not to the good of the superior and this not to the good of the superior and this is the reason my dear tres amigas why as is the reason my dear tres amigas why as is the reason my dear tres amigas why as I was just now saying no one is willing

I was just now saying no one is willing I was just now saying no one is willing to govern because no one likes to take to govern because no one likes to take to govern because no one likes to take in hand the reformation of evils which in hand the reformation of evils which in hand the reformation of evils which are not his concern without remuneration are not his concern without remuneration are not his concern without remuneration for in the execution of his work and in for in the execution of his work and in for in the execution of his work and in giving his orders to another the true giving his orders to another the true giving his orders to another the true artist does not regard his own interest artist does not regard his own interest artist does not regard his own interest but always that of his subjects and but always that of his subjects and but always that of his subjects and therefore in order that rulers may be therefore in order that rulers may be therefore in order that rulers may be willing to rule they must be paid in one willing to rule they must be paid in one willing to rule they must be paid in one of three modes of payment money or honor of three modes of payment money or honor of three modes of payment money or honor or a penalty for refusing what do you or a penalty for refusing what do you or a penalty for refusing what do you mean mean mean Socrates said Glaucon the first two Socrates said Glaucon the first two Socrates said Glaucon the first two modes of payment are intelligible enough modes of payment are intelligible enough modes of payment are intelligible enough but what the penalty is I do not but what the penalty is I do not but what the penalty is I do not understand and how a penalty can be a understand and how a penalty can be a understand and how a penalty can be a payment you mean that you do not payment you mean that you do not payment you mean that you do not understand the nature of this payment understand the nature of this payment understand the nature of this payment which to the best man is the great which to the best man is the great which to the best man is the great inducement to rule of course you know inducement to rule of course you know inducement to rule of course you know that and that and that and and avarice are held to be as indeed and avarice are held to be as indeed and avarice are held to be as indeed they are a disgrace very true and for they are a disgrace very true and for they are a disgrace very true and for this reason I said money and honor have this reason I said money and honor have this reason I said money and honor have no attraction for them good men do not no attraction for them good men do not no attraction for them good men do not wish to be openly demanding payment for wish to be openly demanding payment for wish to be openly demanding payment for governing and so to get the name of governing and so to get the name of governing and so to get the name of hirelings nor by secretly helping hirelings nor by secretly helping hirelings nor by secretly helping themselves out of the public revenues to themselves out of the public revenues to themselves out of the public revenues to get the name of thieves and not being get the name of thieves and not being get the name of thieves and not being ambitious they do not care about honor ambitious they do not care about honor ambitious they do not care about honor wherefore necessity must be laid upon wherefore necessity must be laid upon wherefore necessity must be laid upon them and they must be induced to serve them and they must be induced to serve them and they must be induced to serve from the fear of punishment and this as from the fear of punishment and this as from the fear of punishment and this as I imagine is the reason why the I imagine is the reason why the I imagine is the reason why the forbidden aesthetic office instead of

forbidden aesthetic office instead of forbidden aesthetic office instead of waiting to be compelled has been deemed waiting to be compelled has been deemed waiting to be compelled has been deemed dishonorable now the worst part of the dishonorable now the worst part of the dishonorable now the worst part of the punishment is that he who refuses to punishment is that he who refuses to punishment is that he who refuses to rule is liable to be ruled by one who is rule is liable to be ruled by one who is rule is liable to be ruled by one who is worse than himself and the fear of this worse than himself and the fear of this worse than himself and the fear of this as I conceive induces the good to take as I conceive induces the good to take as I conceive induces the good to take office not because they would but office not because they would but office not because they would but because they cannot help not under the because they cannot help not under the because they cannot help not under the idea that they are going to have any idea that they are going to have any idea that they are going to have any benefit or enjoyment themselves but as a benefit or enjoyment themselves but as a benefit or enjoyment themselves but as a necessity and because they are not to necessity and because they are not to necessity and because they are not to commit the task of ruling to anyone who commit the task of ruling to anyone who commit the task of ruling to anyone who is better than themselves or indeed as is better than themselves or indeed as is better than themselves or indeed as good for there is a reason to think that good for there is a reason to think that good for there is a reason to think that if a city were composed entirely of good if a city were composed entirely of good if a city were composed entirely of good men then to avoid office would be as men then to avoid office would be as men then to avoid office would be as much an object of contention as to much an object of contention as to much an object of contention as to obtain offices at present then we should obtain offices at present then we should obtain offices at present then we should have plain proof that the true ruler is have plain proof that the true ruler is have plain proof that the true ruler is not meant by nature to regard his own not meant by nature to regard his own not meant by nature to regard his own interest but that of his subjects and interest but that of his subjects and interest but that of his subjects and everyone who knew this would choose everyone who knew this would choose everyone who knew this would choose rather to receive a benefit from another rather to receive a benefit from another rather to receive a benefit from another than to have the trouble of conferring than to have the trouble of conferring than to have the trouble of conferring one so far am i from agreeing with tres one so far am i from agreeing with tres one so far am i from agreeing with tres amigas that justice is the interest of amigas that justice is the interest of amigas that justice is the interest of the stronger this latter question need the stronger this latter question need the stronger this latter question need not be further discussed at present but not be further discussed at present but not be further discussed at present but when two silica says that the life of when two silica says that the life of when two silica says that the life of the unjust is more advantageous than the unjust is more advantageous than the unjust is more advantageous than that of the just his new statement that of the just his new statement that of the just his new statement appears to me to be of a far more appears to me to be of a far more appears to me to be of a far more serious character serious character serious character which of us has spoken truly and which which of us has spoken truly and which which of us has spoken truly and which sort of life Glaucon do you prefer hi

sort of life Glaucon do you prefer hi sort of life Glaucon do you prefer hi for my parting the life of the just to for my parting the life of the just to for my parting the life of the just to be the more advantageous he answered be the more advantageous he answered be the more advantageous he answered do you hear all the advantages of the do you hear all the advantages of the do you hear all the advantages of the unjust which Trece mcus was rehearsing unjust which Trece mcus was rehearsing unjust which Trece mcus was rehearsing yes I heard him he replied but he has yes I heard him he replied but he has yes I heard him he replied but he has not convinced me not convinced me not convinced me then shall we try to find some way of then shall we try to find some way of then shall we try to find some way of convincing him if we can that he is convincing him if we can that he is convincing him if we can that he is saying what is not true saying what is not true saying what is not true most certainly he replied if I said he most certainly he replied if I said he most certainly he replied if I said he makes a set speech and we make another makes a set speech and we make another makes a set speech and we make another recounting all the advantages of being recounting all the advantages of being recounting all the advantages of being just and he answers and we rejoin there just and he answers and we rejoin there just and he answers and we rejoin there must be a numbering and measuring of the must be a numbering and measuring of the must be a numbering and measuring of the goods which are claimed on either side goods which are claimed on either side goods which are claimed on either side and in the end we shall want judges to and in the end we shall want judges to and in the end we shall want judges to decide but if we proceed in our inquiry decide but if we proceed in our inquiry decide but if we proceed in our inquiry as we lately did by making admissions to as we lately did by making admissions to as we lately did by making admissions to one another we shall unite the offices one another we shall unite the offices one another we shall unite the offices of judge and Advocate in our own persons of judge and Advocate in our own persons of judge and Advocate in our own persons very good he said and which method do I very good he said and which method do I very good he said and which method do I understand you to prefer I said that understand you to prefer I said that understand you to prefer I said that which you propose well then tres amigas which you propose well then tres amigas which you propose well then tres amigas I said suppose you begin at the I said suppose you begin at the I said suppose you begin at the beginning and answer me you say that beginning and answer me you say that beginning and answer me you say that perfect injustice is more gainful than perfect injustice is more gainful than perfect injustice is more gainful than perfect justice yes that is what I say perfect justice yes that is what I say perfect justice yes that is what I say and I have given you my reasons and what and I have given you my reasons and what and I have given you my reasons and what does your view about them would you call does your view about them would you call does your view about them would you call one of them virtue in the other vice one of them virtue in the other vice one of them virtue in the other vice certainly I suppose that you would call certainly I suppose that you would call certainly I suppose that you would call justice virtue and injustice of eyes or

justice virtue and injustice of eyes or justice virtue and injustice of eyes or a charming notion so likely to seeing a charming notion so likely to seeing a charming notion so likely to seeing that I affirm injustice to be profitable that I affirm injustice to be profitable that I affirm injustice to be profitable and justice not what else then would you and justice not what else then would you and justice not what else then would you say the opposite he replied and would say the opposite he replied and would say the opposite he replied and would you call justice vice no I would rather you call justice vice no I would rather you call justice vice no I would rather say sublime simplicity then would you say sublime simplicity then would you say sublime simplicity then would you call injustice malignity call injustice malignity call injustice malignity no I would rather say discretion and do no I would rather say discretion and do no I would rather say discretion and do the unjust appear to you to be wise and the unjust appear to you to be wise and the unjust appear to you to be wise and good yes he said at any rate those of good yes he said at any rate those of good yes he said at any rate those of them who are able to be perfectly unjust them who are able to be perfectly unjust them who are able to be perfectly unjust and who have the power of subduing and who have the power of subduing and who have the power of subduing states and nations but perhaps you states and nations but perhaps you states and nations but perhaps you imagined me to be talking of cut purses imagined me to be talking of cut purses imagined me to be talking of cut purses even this profession if undetected nice even this profession if undetected nice even this profession if undetected nice advantages though they are not to be advantages though they are not to be advantages though they are not to be compared with those of which I was just compared with those of which I was just compared with those of which I was just now speaking I do not think that I miss now speaking I do not think that I miss now speaking I do not think that I miss apprehend your meaning 2 semanas I apprehend your meaning 2 semanas I apprehend your meaning 2 semanas I replied but still I cannot hear without replied but still I cannot hear without replied but still I cannot hear without amazement that you class injustice with amazement that you class injustice with amazement that you class injustice with wisdom and virtue and justice with the wisdom and virtue and justice with the wisdom and virtue and justice with the opposite certainly I do so class them opposite certainly I do so class them opposite certainly I do so class them now I said you are on more substantial now I said you are on more substantial now I said you are on more substantial and almost unanswerable ground for if and almost unanswerable ground for if and almost unanswerable ground for if the injustice which you were maintaining the injustice which you were maintaining the injustice which you were maintaining to be profitable had been admitted by to be profitable had been admitted by to be profitable had been admitted by you as by others to be vice and you as by others to be vice and you as by others to be vice and deformity an answer might have been deformity an answer might have been deformity an answer might have been given to you on received principles but given to you on received principles but given to you on received principles but now I perceive that you will call now I perceive that you will call now I perceive that you will call injustice honorable and strong and to

injustice honorable and strong and to injustice honorable and strong and to the unjust you will attribute all the the unjust you will attribute all the the unjust you will attribute all the qualities which are attributed by us qualities which are attributed by us qualities which are attributed by us before to the just seeing that you do before to the just seeing that you do before to the just seeing that you do not hesitate to rank injustice with not hesitate to rank injustice with not hesitate to rank injustice with wisdom and virtue you have guessed most wisdom and virtue you have guessed most wisdom and virtue you have guessed most infallibly he replied then I certainly infallibly he replied then I certainly infallibly he replied then I certainly ought not to shrink from going through ought not to shrink from going through ought not to shrink from going through the argument so long as I have reason to the argument so long as I have reason to the argument so long as I have reason to think that you trace amicus are speaking think that you trace amicus are speaking think that you trace amicus are speaking your real mind for I do believe that you your real mind for I do believe that you your real mind for I do believe that you are now in earnest that are not amusing are now in earnest that are not amusing are now in earnest that are not amusing yourself at our expense yourself at our expense yourself at our expense I may be an earnest or not but what is I may be an earnest or not but what is I may be an earnest or not but what is that to you to refute the argument is that to you to refute the argument is that to you to refute the argument is your business very true I said that is your business very true I said that is your business very true I said that is what I have to do but will you be so what I have to do but will you be so what I have to do but will you be so good as to answer yet one more question good as to answer yet one more question good as to answer yet one more question does the just man tried to gain any does the just man tried to gain any does the just man tried to gain any advantage over the just far otherwise if advantage over the just far otherwise if advantage over the just far otherwise if he did he would not be the simple he did he would not be the simple he did he would not be the simple amusing creature which he is and would amusing creature which he is and would amusing creature which he is and would he try to go beyond just action he would he try to go beyond just action he would he try to go beyond just action he would not and how would he regard the attempt not and how would he regard the attempt not and how would he regard the attempt to gain at to gain at to gain at over the unjust would that be considered over the unjust would that be considered over the unjust would that be considered by him as just or unjust he wouldn't by him as just or unjust he wouldn't by him as just or unjust he wouldn't think it just and would try to gain the think it just and would try to gain the think it just and would try to gain the advantage but he would not be able advantage but he would not be able advantage but he would not be able whether he would or would not be able I whether he would or would not be able I whether he would or would not be able I said is not the point said is not the point said is not the point my question is only whether the just man my question is only whether the just man my question is only whether the just man while refusing to have more than another while refusing to have more than another while refusing to have more than another just man would wish and claim to have just man would wish and claim to have just man would wish and claim to have more than the unjust yes he would and

more than the unjust yes he would and more than the unjust yes he would and what of the unjust does he claim to have what of the unjust does he claim to have what of the unjust does he claim to have more than the just man and to do more more than the just man and to do more more than the just man and to do more than is just of course he said for he than is just of course he said for he than is just of course he said for he claims to have more than all men and the claims to have more than all men and the claims to have more than all men and the unjust man will strive and struggle to unjust man will strive and struggle to unjust man will strive and struggle to obtain more than the unjust man or obtain more than the unjust man or obtain more than the unjust man or action in order that he may have more action in order that he may have more action in order that he may have more than all true we may put the matter thus than all true we may put the matter thus than all true we may put the matter thus I said the just does not desire more I said the just does not desire more I said the just does not desire more than his life but more than his unlike than his life but more than his unlike than his life but more than his unlike whereas the unjust desires more than whereas the unjust desires more than whereas the unjust desires more than both his alike and his unlike nothing he both his alike and his unlike nothing he both his alike and his unlike nothing he said can be better than that statement said can be better than that statement said can be better than that statement and the unjust is good and wise and the and the unjust is good and wise and the and the unjust is good and wise and the justice neither good again he said and justice neither good again he said and justice neither good again he said and is not the unjust like the wise and good is not the unjust like the wise and good is not the unjust like the wise and good and the just unlike them of course he and the just unlike them of course he and the just unlike them of course he said he who is of a certain nature is said he who is of a certain nature is said he who is of a certain nature is like those who are of a certain nature like those who are of a certain nature like those who are of a certain nature he who is not not each of them I said as he who is not not each of them I said as he who is not not each of them I said as such as his like is certainly he replied such as his like is certainly he replied such as his like is certainly he replied very good for Symmachus I said and now very good for Symmachus I said and now very good for Symmachus I said and now to take the case of the Arts you would to take the case of the Arts you would to take the case of the Arts you would admit that one man is a musician and admit that one man is a musician and admit that one man is a musician and another not a musician yes and which is another not a musician yes and which is another not a musician yes and which is wise and which is foolish clearly the wise and which is foolish clearly the wise and which is foolish clearly the musician is wise and he who is not a musician is wise and he who is not a musician is wise and he who is not a musician is foolish and he is good in as musician is foolish and he is good in as musician is foolish and he is good in as far as he is wise and bad in as far as

far as he is wise and bad in as far as far as he is wise and bad in as far as he is foolish yes and you would say the he is foolish yes and you would say the he is foolish yes and you would say the same sort of thing of the physician yes same sort of thing of the physician yes same sort of thing of the physician yes and do you think my excellent friend and do you think my excellent friend and do you think my excellent friend that a musician when he adjusts the lyre that a musician when he adjusts the lyre that a musician when he adjusts the lyre would desire or claim to exceed or would desire or claim to exceed or would desire or claim to exceed or we are the musician in the tightening we are the musician in the tightening we are the musician in the tightening and loosening the strings I do not think and loosening the strings I do not think and loosening the strings I do not think that he would but he would claim to that he would but he would claim to that he would but he would claim to exceed the non musician of course and exceed the non musician of course and exceed the non musician of course and what would you say on the physician in what would you say on the physician in what would you say on the physician in prescribing meats and drinks would he prescribing meats and drinks would he prescribing meats and drinks would he wish to go beyond another physician or wish to go beyond another physician or wish to go beyond another physician or beyond the practice of medicine he would beyond the practice of medicine he would beyond the practice of medicine he would not but he would wish to go beyond the not but he would wish to go beyond the not but he would wish to go beyond the non physician yes and about knowledge non physician yes and about knowledge non physician yes and about knowledge and ignorance in general see whether you and ignorance in general see whether you and ignorance in general see whether you think that any man who has knowledge think that any man who has knowledge think that any man who has knowledge ever would wish to have a choice of ever would wish to have a choice of ever would wish to have a choice of saying or doing more than another man saying or doing more than another man saying or doing more than another man who has knowledge would he not rather who has knowledge would he not rather who has knowledge would he not rather say or do the same as his like in the say or do the same as his like in the say or do the same as his like in the same case that's I suppose could hardly same case that's I suppose could hardly same case that's I suppose could hardly be denied and what of the ignorance we be denied and what of the ignorance we be denied and what of the ignorance we did not desire to have more than either did not desire to have more than either did not desire to have more than either the knowing or the ignorance the knowing or the ignorance the knowing or the ignorance I dare say and the knowing is wise yes I dare say and the knowing is wise yes I dare say and the knowing is wise yes and the wise is good true then the wise and the wise is good true then the wise and the wise is good true then the wise and good will not desire to gain more and good will not desire to gain more and good will not desire to gain more than his life but more than his unlike than his life but more than his unlike than his life but more than his unlike and opposite nice opposed so whereas the and opposite nice opposed so whereas the and opposite nice opposed so whereas the bad and ignorant will desire to gain bad and ignorant will desire to gain bad and ignorant will desire to gain more than both yes but did we not say to

more than both yes but did we not say to more than both yes but did we not say to semuc us that the unjust goes beyond semuc us that the unjust goes beyond semuc us that the unjust goes beyond both his like and unlike were not these both his like and unlike were not these both his like and unlike were not these your words they were and you also said your words they were and you also said your words they were and you also said that the just will not go beyond his that the just will not go beyond his that the just will not go beyond his like but his unlike yes then the just is like but his unlike yes then the just is like but his unlike yes then the just is like the wise and good and the unjust like the wise and good and the unjust like the wise and good and the unjust like the evil and ignorant that is the like the evil and ignorant that is the like the evil and ignorant that is the inference and each of them is such as inference and each of them is such as inference and each of them is such as his life is that was admitted then the his life is that was admitted then the his life is that was admitted then the just has turned out to be wise and good just has turned out to be wise and good just has turned out to be wise and good and the unjust evil and ignorant and the unjust evil and ignorant and the unjust evil and ignorant ATRA Silica's made all these admissions ATRA Silica's made all these admissions ATRA Silica's made all these admissions not fluently as I repeat them but with not fluently as I repeat them but with not fluently as I repeat them but with extreme reluctance that was a hot extreme reluctance that was a hot extreme reluctance that was a hot summer's day and the perspiration poured summer's day and the perspiration poured summer's day and the perspiration poured from him in Torrance and then I saw when from him in Torrance and then I saw when from him in Torrance and then I saw when I had never seen before I had never seen before I had never seen before Tresa MCUs blushing as we were now Tresa MCUs blushing as we were now Tresa MCUs blushing as we were now agreed that justice was virtue and agreed that justice was virtue and agreed that justice was virtue and wisdom and injustice vice and ignorance wisdom and injustice vice and ignorance wisdom and injustice vice and ignorance I proceeded to another point well I said I proceeded to another point well I said I proceeded to another point well I said Christ amicus that matter is now settled Christ amicus that matter is now settled Christ amicus that matter is now settled but were we not also saying that but were we not also saying that but were we not also saying that injustice had strength do you remember injustice had strength do you remember injustice had strength do you remember yes I remember he said but do not yes I remember he said but do not yes I remember he said but do not suppose that I approve of what you are suppose that I approve of what you are suppose that I approve of what you are saying or have no answer if however I saying or have no answer if however I saying or have no answer if however I were to answer you would be quite were to answer you would be quite were to answer you would be quite certain to accuse me of her ragging certain to accuse me of her ragging certain to accuse me of her ragging therefore either permit me to have my

therefore either permit me to have my therefore either permit me to have my say out or if you would rather ask do so say out or if you would rather ask do so say out or if you would rather ask do so and I will answer very good as they say and I will answer very good as they say and I will answer very good as they say to storytelling old women and will nod to storytelling old women and will nod to storytelling old women and will nod yes and no certainly not I said if yes and no certainly not I said if yes and no certainly not I said if contrary to your real opinion yes he contrary to your real opinion yes he contrary to your real opinion yes he said I will to please you since you will said I will to please you since you will said I will to please you since you will not let me speak what else would you not let me speak what else would you not let me speak what else would you have nothing in the world I said and if have nothing in the world I said and if have nothing in the world I said and if you are so disposed I will ask unusual you are so disposed I will ask unusual you are so disposed I will ask unusual answer proceed answer proceed answer proceed then I will repeat the question which I then I will repeat the question which I then I will repeat the question which I asked before in order that our asked before in order that our asked before in order that our examination of the relative nature of examination of the relative nature of examination of the relative nature of justice and injustice may be carried on justice and injustice may be carried on justice and injustice may be carried on regularly a statement was made that regularly a statement was made that regularly a statement was made that injustice is stronger and more powerful injustice is stronger and more powerful injustice is stronger and more powerful than justice but now justice having been than justice but now justice having been than justice but now justice having been identified with wisdom and virtue is identified with wisdom and virtue is identified with wisdom and virtue is easily shown to be stronger than easily shown to be stronger than easily shown to be stronger than injustice if injustice is ignorance this injustice if injustice is ignorance this injustice if injustice is ignorance this can no longer be questioned by anyone can no longer be questioned by anyone can no longer be questioned by anyone but I want to view the matter Trece MCUs but I want to view the matter Trece MCUs but I want to view the matter Trece MCUs in a different way you would not deny in a different way you would not deny in a different way you would not deny that estates may be unjust and may be that estates may be unjust and may be that estates may be unjust and may be unjustly attempting to enslave other unjustly attempting to enslave other unjustly attempting to enslave other states or may have already enslaved them states or may have already enslaved them states or may have already enslaved them and may be holding many of them in and may be holding many of them in and may be holding many of them in subjection true they replied and I will subjection true they replied and I will subjection true they replied and I will add that the best and most perfectly add that the best and most perfectly add that the best and most perfectly unjust state would be most likely to do unjust state would be most likely to do unjust state would be most likely to do so I know I said that such was your so I know I said that such was your so I know I said that such was your position but what I would further

position but what I would further position but what I would further consider is whether this power which is consider is whether this power which is consider is whether this power which is possessed by the superior state can possessed by the superior state can possessed by the superior state can exist or be exercised without justice or exist or be exercised without justice or exist or be exercised without justice or only with justice if you are right in only with justice if you are right in only with justice if you are right in your view and justice is wisdom then your view and justice is wisdom then your view and justice is wisdom then only with justice but if I am right then only with justice but if I am right then only with justice but if I am right then without justice I am delighted to without justice I am delighted to without justice I am delighted to Symmachus to see you not only nodding Symmachus to see you not only nodding Symmachus to see you not only nodding assent and dissent but making answers assent and dissent but making answers assent and dissent but making answers which are quite excellent that is out of which are quite excellent that is out of which are quite excellent that is out of civility to you they replied you are civility to you they replied you are civility to you they replied you are very kind I said and would you add the very kind I said and would you add the very kind I said and would you add the goodness also to inform me whether you goodness also to inform me whether you goodness also to inform me whether you think there are states or an army or a think there are states or an army or a think there are states or an army or a band of robbers and thieves or any other band of robbers and thieves or any other band of robbers and thieves or any other gang of ill doers could act at all if gang of ill doers could act at all if gang of ill doers could act at all if they injured one another no indeed he they injured one another no indeed he they injured one another no indeed he said they could not but if they said they could not but if they said they could not but if they abstained from injuring one another then abstained from injuring one another then abstained from injuring one another then they might act together better yes and they might act together better yes and they might act together better yes and this is because injustice creates this is because injustice creates this is because injustice creates divisions and hatreds and fighting and divisions and hatreds and fighting and divisions and hatreds and fighting and justice imparts harmony and friendship justice imparts harmony and friendship justice imparts harmony and friendship is not that true tres amigas is not that true tres amigas is not that true tres amigas I agree he said because I do not wish to I agree he said because I do not wish to I agree he said because I do not wish to quarrel with you how good of you I said quarrel with you how good of you I said quarrel with you how good of you I said but I should like to know also whether but I should like to know also whether but I should like to know also whether injustice having this tendency to arouse injustice having this tendency to arouse injustice having this tendency to arouse hatred who are ever existing among hatred who are ever existing among hatred who are ever existing among slaves or among Freeman will not make slaves or among Freeman will not make slaves or among Freeman will not make them hate one another and set them at

them hate one another and set them at them hate one another and set them at variance and render them incapable of variance and render them incapable of variance and render them incapable of common action certainly and even if common action certainly and even if common action certainly and even if injustice be found in to only will they injustice be found in to only will they injustice be found in to only will they not quarrel and fight and become enemies not quarrel and fight and become enemies not quarrel and fight and become enemies to one another and to the just they will to one another and to the just they will to one another and to the just they will and suppose injustice abiding in a and suppose injustice abiding in a and suppose injustice abiding in a single person would your wisdom say that single person would your wisdom say that single person would your wisdom say that she loses or that she retains her she loses or that she retains her she loses or that she retains her natural power let us assume that she natural power let us assume that she natural power let us assume that she retains her power yet is not the power retains her power yet is not the power retains her power yet is not the power which injustice exercises of such a which injustice exercises of such a which injustice exercises of such a nature that wherever she takes up her nature that wherever she takes up her nature that wherever she takes up her abode whether in a city in an army and a abode whether in a city in an army and a abode whether in a city in an army and a family or in any other body that body is family or in any other body that body is family or in any other body that body is to begin with rendered incapable of to begin with rendered incapable of to begin with rendered incapable of United action by reason of sedition and United action by reason of sedition and United action by reason of sedition and destruction and does it not become its destruction and does it not become its destruction and does it not become its own enemy and at variance with all that own enemy and at variance with all that own enemy and at variance with all that opposes it and with the just it's not opposes it and with the just it's not opposes it and with the just it's not this the case yes certainly and is not this the case yes certainly and is not this the case yes certainly and is not injustice equally fatal when existing in injustice equally fatal when existing in injustice equally fatal when existing in a single person in the first place a single person in the first place a single person in the first place rendering him incapable of action rendering him incapable of action rendering him incapable of action because he is not at unity with himself because he is not at unity with himself because he is not at unity with himself and in the second place making him an and in the second place making him an and in the second place making him an enemy to himself and the just is not enemy to himself and the just is not enemy to himself and the just is not that true tres amigas yes that true tres amigas yes that true tres amigas yes and oh my friend I said surely the gods and oh my friend I said surely the gods and oh my friend I said surely the gods are just granted that they are but if so are just granted that they are but if so are just granted that they are but if so the unjust will be the enemy of the gods the unjust will be the enemy of the gods the unjust will be the enemy of the gods and the just will be their friend feast

and the just will be their friend feast and the just will be their friend feast away in triumph and take your fill of away in triumph and take your fill of away in triumph and take your fill of the arguments I will not oppose you lest the arguments I will not oppose you lest the arguments I will not oppose you lest I should displease the company well then I should displease the company well then I should displease the company well then proceed with your answers and let me proceed with your answers and let me proceed with your answers and let me have the remainder of my repast for we have the remainder of my repast for we have the remainder of my repast for we have already shown that the just are have already shown that the just are have already shown that the just are clearly wiser and better and a blur than clearly wiser and better and a blur than clearly wiser and better and a blur than the unjust and that the unjust are the unjust and that the unjust are the unjust and that the unjust are incapable of Carbon action incapable of Carbon action incapable of Carbon action nay more that to speak as we did of men nay more that to speak as we did of men nay more that to speak as we did of men who are evil acting at any time who are evil acting at any time who are evil acting at any time vigorously together is not strictly true vigorously together is not strictly true vigorously together is not strictly true for if they had been perfectly evil they for if they had been perfectly evil they for if they had been perfectly evil they would have laid hands upon one another would have laid hands upon one another would have laid hands upon one another but it is evidence that there must have but it is evidence that there must have but it is evidence that there must have been some remnant of justice in them been some remnant of justice in them been some remnant of justice in them which enabled them to combine if there which enabled them to combine if there which enabled them to combine if there had not been they would have injured one had not been they would have injured one had not been they would have injured one another as well as their victims they another as well as their victims they another as well as their victims they were but half villains in their were but half villains in their were but half villains in their enterprises for had they been hold enterprises for had they been hold enterprises for had they been hold villains and utterly unjust they would villains and utterly unjust they would villains and utterly unjust they would have been utterly incapable of action have been utterly incapable of action have been utterly incapable of action that as I believe is the truth of the that as I believe is the truth of the that as I believe is the truth of the matter and not what you said at first matter and not what you said at first matter and not what you said at first but whether the just have a better and but whether the just have a better and but whether the just have a better and happier life and the unjust is a further happier life and the unjust is a further happier life and the unjust is a further question which we also propose to question which we also propose to question which we also propose to consider I think that they have and for consider I think that they have and for consider I think that they have and for the reasons which I have given but still the reasons which I have given but still the reasons which I have given but still I should like to examine further for no I should like to examine further for no I should like to examine further for no light matter is at stake nothing less light matter is at stake nothing less light matter is at stake nothing less than the rule of human life proceed I than the rule of human life proceed I than the rule of human life proceed I will proceed by asking a question

will proceed by asking a question will proceed by asking a question wouldn't you not say that a horse has wouldn't you not say that a horse has wouldn't you not say that a horse has some end I should and the end or use of some end I should and the end or use of some end I should and the end or use of a horse or of anything would be that a horse or of anything would be that a horse or of anything would be that which could not be accomplished or not which could not be accomplished or not which could not be accomplished or not so well accomplished by any other thing so well accomplished by any other thing so well accomplished by any other thing I do not understand he said let me I do not understand he said let me I do not understand he said let me explain can you see except with the eye explain can you see except with the eye explain can you see except with the eye certainly not or here except with the certainly not or here except with the certainly not or here except with the ear no these then may be truly said to ear no these then may be truly said to ear no these then may be truly said to be the ends of these organs they may but be the ends of these organs they may but be the ends of these organs they may but you can cut off a fine branch with a you can cut off a fine branch with a you can cut off a fine branch with a dagger or with a chisel and in many dagger or with a chisel and in many dagger or with a chisel and in many other ways of course and yet not so well other ways of course and yet not so well other ways of course and yet not so well as with a pruning hook made for the as with a pruning hook made for the as with a pruning hook made for the purpose true may we not say that this is purpose true may we not say that this is purpose true may we not say that this is the end of a pruning hook we may the end of a pruning hook we may the end of a pruning hook we may then now I think you will have no then now I think you will have no then now I think you will have no difficulty in understanding my meaning difficulty in understanding my meaning difficulty in understanding my meaning when I asked the question whether the when I asked the question whether the when I asked the question whether the end of anything would be that which end of anything would be that which end of anything would be that which could not be accomplished or not so well could not be accomplished or not so well could not be accomplished or not so well accomplished by any other thing I accomplished by any other thing I accomplished by any other thing I understand your meaning he said and understand your meaning he said and understand your meaning he said and ascend ascend ascend and that to which an end is appointed and that to which an end is appointed and that to which an end is appointed has also an excellence need I ask again has also an excellence need I ask again has also an excellence need I ask again whether the eye has an end it has and whether the eye has an end it has and whether the eye has an end it has and has not the eye and excellence yes and has not the eye and excellence yes and has not the eye and excellence yes and the ear has an end and an excellence the ear has an end and an excellence the ear has an end and an excellence also true and the same is true of all also true and the same is true of all also true and the same is true of all other things they have each of them and other things they have each of them and other things they have each of them and end and a special excellence that is so

end and a special excellence that is so end and a special excellence that is so well and can the eyes fulfill their end well and can the eyes fulfill their end well and can the eyes fulfill their end if they are wanting in their own proper if they are wanting in their own proper if they are wanting in their own proper excellence and have a defect instead on excellence and have a defect instead on excellence and have a defect instead on how can they he said if they are blind how can they he said if they are blind how can they he said if they are blind and cannot see you mean to say if they and cannot see you mean to say if they and cannot see you mean to say if they have lost their proper excellence which have lost their proper excellence which have lost their proper excellence which is sight but I have not arrived at that is sight but I have not arrived at that is sight but I have not arrived at that point yet I would rather ask the point yet I would rather ask the point yet I would rather ask the question more generally and only inquire question more generally and only inquire question more generally and only inquire whether the things which fulfill their whether the things which fulfill their whether the things which fulfill their ends fulfil them by their own proper ends fulfil them by their own proper ends fulfil them by their own proper excellence and fail of fulfilling them excellence and fail of fulfilling them excellence and fail of fulfilling them by their own defect certainly he replied by their own defect certainly he replied by their own defect certainly he replied I might say the same of the ears when I might say the same of the ears when I might say the same of the ears when deprived of their own proper excellence deprived of their own proper excellence deprived of their own proper excellence they cannot fulfill their end true and they cannot fulfill their end true and they cannot fulfill their end true and the same observation will apply to all the same observation will apply to all the same observation will apply to all other things I agree well and has not other things I agree well and has not other things I agree well and has not the soul and end which nothing else can the soul and end which nothing else can the soul and end which nothing else can fulfill for example to superintend and fulfill for example to superintend and fulfill for example to superintend and command and deliberate and the like are command and deliberate and the like are command and deliberate and the like are not these functions proper to the soul not these functions proper to the soul not these functions proper to the soul and can they rightly be assigned to any and can they rightly be assigned to any and can they rightly be assigned to any other to no other and is not life to be other to no other and is not life to be other to no other and is not life to be reckoned among the ends of the soul reckoned among the ends of the soul reckoned among the ends of the soul assuredly he said and has not the soul assuredly he said and has not the soul assuredly he said and has not the soul and excellence also yes and can she or and excellence also yes and can she or and excellence also yes and can she or can she not fulfil her own ends when can she not fulfil her own ends when can she not fulfil her own ends when deprived of that excellence deprived of that excellence deprived of that excellence she cannot then an evil soul must she cannot then an evil soul must she cannot then an evil soul must necessarily be an evil ruler and necessarily be an evil ruler and necessarily be an evil ruler and superintendent and the good soul a good superintendent and the good soul a good superintendent and the good soul a good ruler yes necessarily and we have

ruler yes necessarily and we have ruler yes necessarily and we have admitted that justice is the excellence admitted that justice is the excellence admitted that justice is the excellence of the soul and injustice the defect of of the soul and injustice the defect of of the soul and injustice the defect of the soul that has been admitted then the the soul that has been admitted then the the soul that has been admitted then the just soul and the just man will live just soul and the just man will live just soul and the just man will live well and the unjust man will live ill well and the unjust man will live ill well and the unjust man will live ill that is what your argument proof that is what your argument proof that is what your argument proof and he who lives well is blessed and and he who lives well is blessed and and he who lives well is blessed and happy and he who lives happy and he who lives happy and he who lives ill the reverse of happy certainly then ill the reverse of happy certainly then ill the reverse of happy certainly then the just is happy and the unjust the just is happy and the unjust the just is happy and the unjust miserable so be it miserable so be it miserable so be it but happiness and not misery is but happiness and not misery is but happiness and not misery is profitable of course then my blessed profitable of course then my blessed profitable of course then my blessed tres amigas injustice can never be more tres amigas injustice can never be more tres amigas injustice can never be more profitable than justice led to this profitable than justice led to this profitable than justice led to this Socrates he said be your entertainment Socrates he said be your entertainment Socrates he said be your entertainment at the Bendi diya for which I am at the Bendi diya for which I am at the Bendi diya for which I am indebted to you I said now that you have indebted to you I said now that you have indebted to you I said now that you have grown gentle towards me and have left grown gentle towards me and have left grown gentle towards me and have left off scolding nevertheless I have not off scolding nevertheless I have not off scolding nevertheless I have not been well entertained but that was my been well entertained but that was my been well entertained but that was my own fault and not yours as an Epicure own fault and not yours as an Epicure own fault and not yours as an Epicure snatches a taste of every dish which is snatches a taste of every dish which is snatches a taste of every dish which is successively brought to table he not successively brought to table he not successively brought to table he not having allowed himself time to enjoy the having allowed himself time to enjoy the having allowed himself time to enjoy the one before so have I gone from one one before so have I gone from one one before so have I gone from one subject to another without having subject to another without having subject to another without having discovered what I saw at first the discovered what I saw at first the discovered what I saw at first the nature of justice nature of justice nature of justice I left that enquiry and turned away to I left that enquiry and turned away to I left that enquiry and turned away to consider whether justice is virtue and consider whether justice is virtue and consider whether justice is virtue and wisdom or evil and folly and when there wisdom or evil and folly and when there wisdom or evil and folly and when there arose a further question about the arose a further question about the arose a further question about the comparative advantages of justice and

comparative advantages of justice and comparative advantages of justice and injustice I could not refrain from injustice I could not refrain from injustice I could not refrain from passing on to that and the result of the passing on to that and the result of the passing on to that and the result of the whole discussion has been that I know whole discussion has been that I know whole discussion has been that I know nothing at all for I know not what nothing at all for I know not what nothing at all for I know not what justice is and therefore I am not likely justice is and therefore I am not likely justice is and therefore I am not likely to know whether it is or is not a virtue to know whether it is or is not a virtue to know whether it is or is not a virtue nor can I say whether the just man is nor can I say whether the just man is nor can I say whether the just man is happy or unhappy