Plato's Republic Book 3

Book three, part one from the Republic Book three, part one from the Republic by Plato. by Plato. by Plato. This LibriVox recording is in the public This LibriVox recording is in the public This LibriVox recording is in the public domain. domain. domain. Read by Bob Neufeld. Read by Bob Neufeld. Read by Bob Neufeld. Such then, I said, are our principles of Such then, I said, are our principles of Such then, I said, are our principles of theology. theology. theology. Some tales are to be told and others are Some tales are to be told and others are Some tales are to be told and others are not to be told to our disciples from not to be told to our disciples from not to be told to our disciples from their youth upwards, if we mean them to their youth upwards, if we mean them to their youth upwards, if we mean them to honor the gods and their parents and to honor the gods and their parents and to honor the gods and their parents and to value friendship with one another. Yes, value friendship with one another. Yes, value friendship with one another. Yes, and I think that our principles are and I think that our principles are and I think that our principles are right, he said. But if they are to be right, he said. But if they are to be right, he said. But if they are to be courageous, courageous, courageous, must they not learn other lessons must they not learn other lessons must they not learn other lessons besides these and lessons of such a kind besides these and lessons of such a kind besides these and lessons of such a kind as will take away the fear of death? Can as will take away the fear of death? Can as will take away the fear of death? Can any man be courageous who has the fear any man be courageous who has the fear any man be courageous who has the fear of death in him? Certainly not, he said. of death in him? Certainly not, he said. of death in him? Certainly not, he said. And can he be fearless of death or will And can he be fearless of death or will And can he be fearless of death or will he choose death in battle rather than he choose death in battle rather than he choose death in battle rather than defeat and slavery who believes the defeat and slavery who believes the defeat and slavery who believes the world below to be real and terrible? world below to be real and terrible? world below to be real and terrible? Impossible. Impossible. Impossible. Then we must assume a control over the Then we must assume a control over the Then we must assume a control over the narrators of this class of tales as well narrators of this class of tales as well narrators of this class of tales as well as over the others and beg them not as over the others and beg them not as over the others and beg them not simply to revile but rather to commend simply to revile but rather to commend simply to revile but rather to commend the world below, intimating to them that the world below, intimating to them that the world below, intimating to them that their descriptions are untrue and will their descriptions are untrue and will their descriptions are untrue and will do harm to our future warriors. That do harm to our future warriors. That do harm to our future warriors. That will be our duty, he said. Then, I said, will be our duty, he said. Then, I said, will be our duty, he said. Then, I said, we shall have to obliterate many we shall have to obliterate many we shall have to obliterate many obnoxious passages beginning with the obnoxious passages beginning with the obnoxious passages beginning with the verses, I would rather be a serf on the verses, I would rather be a serf on the verses, I would rather be a serf on the land of a poor and portionless man than land of a poor and portionless man than land of a poor and portionless man than rule over the dead who have come to rule over the dead who have come to rule over the dead who have come to naught.

naught. naught. We must also expunge the verse which We must also expunge the verse which We must also expunge the verse which tells us how Pluto feared lest the tells us how Pluto feared lest the tells us how Pluto feared lest the mansions grim and squalid, which the mansions grim and squalid, which the mansions grim and squalid, which the gods abhor, should be seen both of gods abhor, should be seen both of gods abhor, should be seen both of mortals and immortals. And again, oh mortals and immortals. And again, oh mortals and immortals. And again, oh heavens, verily in the house of Hades heavens, verily in the house of Hades heavens, verily in the house of Hades there is soul and ghostly form but no there is soul and ghostly form but no there is soul and ghostly form but no mind at all. mind at all. mind at all. Again of Tiresias, to him, even after Again of Tiresias, to him, even after Again of Tiresias, to him, even after death, did Persephone grant mind that he death, did Persephone grant mind that he death, did Persephone grant mind that he alone should be wise, but the other alone should be wise, but the other alone should be wise, but the other souls are flitting shades. souls are flitting shades. souls are flitting shades. Again, the soul flying from the limbs Again, the soul flying from the limbs Again, the soul flying from the limbs had gone to Hades, lamenting her fate, had gone to Hades, lamenting her fate, had gone to Hades, lamenting her fate, leaving manhood and youth. leaving manhood and youth. leaving manhood and youth. Again, and the soul, with shrilling cry, Again, and the soul, with shrilling cry, Again, and the soul, with shrilling cry, passed like smoke beneath the earth. passed like smoke beneath the earth. passed like smoke beneath the earth. And as bats in hollow of mystic cavern, And as bats in hollow of mystic cavern, And as bats in hollow of mystic cavern, whenever any of them has dropped out of whenever any of them has dropped out of whenever any of them has dropped out of the string and falls from the rock, fly the string and falls from the rock, fly the string and falls from the rock, fly shrilling and cling to one another, so shrilling and cling to one another, so shrilling and cling to one another, so did they, with shrilling cry, hold did they, with shrilling cry, hold did they, with shrilling cry, hold together as they moved.

together as they moved. together as they moved. And we must beg Homer and the other And we must beg Homer and the other And we must beg Homer and the other poets not to be angry if we strike out poets not to be angry if we strike out poets not to be angry if we strike out of these and similar passages, not of these and similar passages, not of these and similar passages, not because they are unpoetical or because they are unpoetical or because they are unpoetical or unattractive to the popular ear, but unattractive to the popular ear, but unattractive to the popular ear, but because the greater the poetical charm because the greater the poetical charm because the greater the poetical charm of them, the less are they meet for the of them, the less are they meet for the of them, the less are they meet for the ears of boys and men who are meant to be ears of boys and men who are meant to be ears of boys and men who are meant to be free, and who should fear slavery more free, and who should fear slavery more free, and who should fear slavery more than death. than death. than death. Undoubtedly. Also, we shall have to Undoubtedly. Also, we shall have to Undoubtedly. Also, we shall have to reject all the terrible and appalling reject all the terrible and appalling reject all the terrible and appalling names which describe the world below, names which describe the world below, names which describe the world below, Cocytus and Styx, ghosts under the Cocytus and Styx, ghosts under the Cocytus and Styx, ghosts under the earth, and sapless shades, and any earth, and sapless shades, and any earth, and sapless shades, and any similar words of which the very mention similar words of which the very mention similar words of which the very mention causes a shudder to pass through the causes a shudder to pass through the causes a shudder to pass through the inmost soul of him who hears them. inmost soul of him who hears them. inmost soul of him who hears them. I do not say that these horrible stories I do not say that these horrible stories I do not say that these horrible stories may not have a use of some kind, but may not have a use of some kind, but may not have a use of some kind, but there is a danger that the nerves of our there is a danger that the nerves of our there is a danger that the nerves of our guardians may be rendered too excitable guardians may be rendered too excitable guardians may be rendered too excitable and effeminate by them. That is a real and effeminate by them. That is a real and effeminate by them. That is a real danger, he said. danger, he said. danger, he said. Then we must have no more of them. True.

Then we must have no more of them. True. Then we must have no more of them. True. Another and a nobler strain must be Another and a nobler strain must be Another and a nobler strain must be composed and sung by us. Clearly. And composed and sung by us. Clearly. And composed and sung by us. Clearly. And shall we proceed to get rid of the shall we proceed to get rid of the shall we proceed to get rid of the weepings and wailings of famous men? weepings and wailings of famous men? weepings and wailings of famous men? They will go with the rest. They will go with the rest. They will go with the rest. But shall we be right in getting rid of But shall we be right in getting rid of But shall we be right in getting rid of them? them? them? Reflect. Our principle is that the good Reflect. Our principle is that the good Reflect. Our principle is that the good man will not consider death terrible to man will not consider death terrible to man will not consider death terrible to any other good man who is his comrade. any other good man who is his comrade. any other good man who is his comrade. Yes, that is our principle. And Yes, that is our principle. And Yes, that is our principle. And therefore he will not sorrow for his therefore he will not sorrow for his therefore he will not sorrow for his departed friend as though he had departed friend as though he had departed friend as though he had suffered anything terrible. He will not. suffered anything terrible. He will not. suffered anything terrible. He will not. Such an one as we further maintain is Such an one as we further maintain is Such an one as we further maintain is sufficient for himself and his own sufficient for himself and his own sufficient for himself and his own happiness and therefore is least in need happiness and therefore is least in need happiness and therefore is least in need of other men. of other men. of other men. True, he said. True, he said. True, he said. And for this reason the loss of a son or And for this reason the loss of a son or And for this reason the loss of a son or brother or the deprivation of fortune is brother or the deprivation of fortune is brother or the deprivation of fortune is to him of all men least terrible. to him of all men least terrible. to him of all men least terrible. Assuredly. Assuredly. Assuredly. And therefore he will be least likely to And therefore he will be least likely to And therefore he will be least likely to lament and will bear with the greatest lament and will bear with the greatest lament and will bear with the greatest equanimity any misfortune of this sort equanimity any misfortune of this sort equanimity any misfortune of this sort which may befall him.

which may befall him. which may befall him. Yes, he will feel such a misfortune far Yes, he will feel such a misfortune far Yes, he will feel such a misfortune far less than another. less than another. less than another. Then we shall be right in getting rid of Then we shall be right in getting rid of Then we shall be right in getting rid of the lamentations of famous men. And the lamentations of famous men. And the lamentations of famous men. And making over to women and not even to making over to women and not even to making over to women and not even to women who are good for anything or to women who are good for anything or to women who are good for anything or to men of a baser sort that those who are men of a baser sort that those who are men of a baser sort that those who are being educated by us to be the defenders being educated by us to be the defenders being educated by us to be the defenders of their country may scorn to do the of their country may scorn to do the of their country may scorn to do the like. like. like. That will be very right. Then we will That will be very right. Then we will That will be very right. Then we will once more entreat Homer and the other once more entreat Homer and the other once more entreat Homer and the other poets to depict Achilles who is the son poets to depict Achilles who is the son poets to depict Achilles who is the son of a goddess first lying on his side, of a goddess first lying on his side, of a goddess first lying on his side, then on his back, and then on his face, then on his back, and then on his face, then on his back, and then on his face, then starting up and sailing in a frenzy then starting up and sailing in a frenzy then starting up and sailing in a frenzy along the shores of the barren sea. Now along the shores of the barren sea. Now along the shores of the barren sea. Now taking the ashes in both his hands taking the ashes in both his hands taking the ashes in both his hands and pouring them over his head or and pouring them over his head or and pouring them over his head or weeping and wailing in the various modes weeping and wailing in the various modes weeping and wailing in the various modes which Homer has delineated. Nor should which Homer has delineated. Nor should which Homer has delineated. Nor should he describe Priam the kinsman of the he describe Priam the kinsman of the he describe Priam the kinsman of the gods as praying and beseeching, rolling gods as praying and beseeching, rolling gods as praying and beseeching, rolling in the dirt, calling each man loudly by in the dirt, calling each man loudly by in the dirt, calling each man loudly by his name. his name. his name. Still more earnestly will we beg of him Still more earnestly will we beg of him Still more earnestly will we beg of him at all events not to introduce the gods at all events not to introduce the gods at all events not to introduce the gods lamenting and saying, "Alas, my misery, lamenting and saying, "Alas, my misery, lamenting and saying, "Alas, my misery, alas that I bore the bravest to my alas that I bore the bravest to my alas that I bore the bravest to my sorrow."

sorrow." sorrow." But he must introduce the gods, at any But he must introduce the gods, at any But he must introduce the gods, at any rate let him dare not so completely to rate let him dare not so completely to rate let him dare not so completely to misrepresent the greatest of the gods as misrepresent the greatest of the gods as misrepresent the greatest of the gods as to make him say, "Oh heavens, with my to make him say, "Oh heavens, with my to make him say, "Oh heavens, with my eyes verily I behold a dear friend of eyes verily I behold a dear friend of eyes verily I behold a dear friend of mine chased round and round the city, mine chased round and round the city, mine chased round and round the city, and my heart is sorrowful." and my heart is sorrowful." and my heart is sorrowful." Or again, "Woe is me that I am fated to Or again, "Woe is me that I am fated to Or again, "Woe is me that I am fated to have Sarpedon, dearest of men to me, have Sarpedon, dearest of men to me, have Sarpedon, dearest of men to me, subdued at the hands of Patroclus and subdued at the hands of Patroclus and subdued at the hands of Patroclus and the son of Menoetius." For if, my sweet the son of Menoetius." For if, my sweet the son of Menoetius." For if, my sweet Adeimantus, our youth seriously listen Adeimantus, our youth seriously listen Adeimantus, our youth seriously listen to such unworthy representations of the to such unworthy representations of the to such unworthy representations of the gods instead of laughing at them as they gods instead of laughing at them as they gods instead of laughing at them as they ought, hardly will any of them deem that ought, hardly will any of them deem that ought, hardly will any of them deem that he himself, being but a man, can be he himself, being but a man, can be he himself, being but a man, can be dishonored by similar actions. Neither dishonored by similar actions. Neither dishonored by similar actions. Neither will he rebuke any inclination which may will he rebuke any inclination which may will he rebuke any inclination which may arise in his mind to say and do the arise in his mind to say and do the arise in his mind to say and do the like. like. like. And instead of having any shame or And instead of having any shame or And instead of having any shame or self-control, he will be always whining self-control, he will be always whining self-control, he will be always whining and lamenting on slight occasions.

and lamenting on slight occasions. and lamenting on slight occasions. "Yes," he said, "that is most true." "Yes," he said, "that is most true." "Yes," he said, "that is most true." "Yes," I replied, "but that surely is "Yes," I replied, "but that surely is "Yes," I replied, "but that surely is what ought not to be, as the argument what ought not to be, as the argument what ought not to be, as the argument has just proved to us, and by that proof has just proved to us, and by that proof has just proved to us, and by that proof we must abide until it is disproved by a we must abide until it is disproved by a we must abide until it is disproved by a better. It ought not to be." better. It ought not to be." better. It ought not to be." Neither ought our guardians to be given Neither ought our guardians to be given Neither ought our guardians to be given to laughter. For a fit of laughter which to laughter. For a fit of laughter which to laughter. For a fit of laughter which has been indulged to excess almost has been indulged to excess almost has been indulged to excess almost always produces a violent reaction. "So always produces a violent reaction. "So always produces a violent reaction. "So I believe." I believe." I believe." Then persons of worth, even if only Then persons of worth, even if only Then persons of worth, even if only mortal men, must not be represented as mortal men, must not be represented as mortal men, must not be represented as overcome by laughter, and still less overcome by laughter, and still less overcome by laughter, and still less must such a representation of the gods must such a representation of the gods must such a representation of the gods be allowed. be allowed. be allowed. "Still less of the gods, as you say." He "Still less of the gods, as you say." He "Still less of the gods, as you say." He replied. Then we shall not suffer such replied. Then we shall not suffer such replied. Then we shall not suffer such an expression to be used against the an expression to be used against the an expression to be used against the gods as that of Homer when he describes gods as that of Homer when he describes gods as that of Homer when he describes how inextinguishable laughter arose how inextinguishable laughter arose how inextinguishable laughter arose among the blessed gods when they saw among the blessed gods when they saw among the blessed gods when they saw Hephaestus bustling about the mansion. Hephaestus bustling about the mansion. Hephaestus bustling about the mansion. On your views, we must admit them. On my On your views, we must admit them. On my On your views, we must admit them. On my views, if you like to father them on me, views, if you like to father them on me, views, if you like to father them on me, that we must not admit them is certain.

that we must not admit them is certain. that we must not admit them is certain. Again, truth should be highly valued. Again, truth should be highly valued. Again, truth should be highly valued. If, as we were saying, a lie is useless If, as we were saying, a lie is useless If, as we were saying, a lie is useless to the gods and useful only as a to the gods and useful only as a to the gods and useful only as a medicine to men, then the use of such medicine to men, then the use of such medicine to men, then the use of such medicines should be restricted to medicines should be restricted to medicines should be restricted to physicians. Private individuals have no physicians. Private individuals have no physicians. Private individuals have no business with them. Clearly not, he business with them. Clearly not, he business with them. Clearly not, he said. said. said. Then, if anyone at all is to have the Then, if anyone at all is to have the Then, if anyone at all is to have the privilege of lying, the rulers of the privilege of lying, the rulers of the privilege of lying, the rulers of the state should be the persons, and they, state should be the persons, and they, state should be the persons, and they, in their dealings either with enemies or in their dealings either with enemies or in their dealings either with enemies or with their own citizens, may be allowed with their own citizens, may be allowed with their own citizens, may be allowed to lie for the public good. to lie for the public good. to lie for the public good. But nobody else should meddle with But nobody else should meddle with But nobody else should meddle with anything of the kind. And although the anything of the kind. And although the anything of the kind. And although the rulers have this privilege, for a rulers have this privilege, for a rulers have this privilege, for a private man to lie to them in return is private man to lie to them in return is private man to lie to them in return is to be deemed a more heinous fault than to be deemed a more heinous fault than to be deemed a more heinous fault than for the patient or the pupil of a for the patient or the pupil of a for the patient or the pupil of a gymnasium, not to speak about his own gymnasium, not to speak about his own gymnasium, not to speak about his own bodily illnesses to the physician or to bodily illnesses to the physician or to bodily illnesses to the physician or to the trainer, or for a sailor not to tell the trainer, or for a sailor not to tell the trainer, or for a sailor not to tell the captain what is happening about the the captain what is happening about the the captain what is happening about the ship and the rest of the crew, and how ship and the rest of the crew, and how ship and the rest of the crew, and how things are going with himself or his things are going with himself or his things are going with himself or his fellow sailors.

fellow sailors. fellow sailors. Most true, he said. If then the ruler Most true, he said. If then the ruler Most true, he said. If then the ruler catches anybody beside himself lying in catches anybody beside himself lying in catches anybody beside himself lying in the state, any of the craftsmen, whether the state, any of the craftsmen, whether the state, any of the craftsmen, whether he be priest or physician or carpenter, he be priest or physician or carpenter, he be priest or physician or carpenter, he will punish him for introducing a he will punish him for introducing a he will punish him for introducing a practice which is equally subversive and practice which is equally subversive and practice which is equally subversive and destructive of ship or state. Most destructive of ship or state. Most destructive of ship or state. Most certainly, he said, if our idea of the certainly, he said, if our idea of the certainly, he said, if our idea of the state is ever carried out. state is ever carried out. state is ever carried out. In the next place, our youth must be In the next place, our youth must be In the next place, our youth must be temperate. Certainly. Are not the chief temperate. Certainly. Are not the chief temperate. Certainly. Are not the chief elements of temperance, speaking elements of temperance, speaking elements of temperance, speaking generally, obedience to commanders and generally, obedience to commanders and generally, obedience to commanders and self-control in sensual pleasures? self-control in sensual pleasures? self-control in sensual pleasures? True. True. True. Then we shall approve such language as Then we shall approve such language as Then we shall approve such language as that of Diomede in Homer. that of Diomede in Homer. that of Diomede in Homer. Friend, sit still and obey my word. Friend, sit still and obey my word. Friend, sit still and obey my word. And the verses which follow, The Greeks And the verses which follow, The Greeks And the verses which follow, The Greeks marched breathing prowess in silent awe marched breathing prowess in silent awe marched breathing prowess in silent awe of their leaders. of their leaders. of their leaders. And other sentiments of the same kind. And other sentiments of the same kind. And other sentiments of the same kind. We shall. What of this line? Oh, heavy We shall. What of this line? Oh, heavy We shall. What of this line? Oh, heavy with wine, who has the eyes of a dog and with wine, who has the eyes of a dog and with wine, who has the eyes of a dog and the heart of a stag.

the heart of a stag. the heart of a stag. And of the words which follow, Would you And of the words which follow, Would you And of the words which follow, Would you say that these are any similar say that these are any similar say that these are any similar impertinences which private individuals impertinences which private individuals impertinences which private individuals are supposed to address to their rulers, are supposed to address to their rulers, are supposed to address to their rulers, whether in verse or prose, are well or whether in verse or prose, are well or whether in verse or prose, are well or ill-spoken? ill-spoken? ill-spoken? They are ill-spoken. They are ill-spoken. They are ill-spoken. They may very possibly afford some They may very possibly afford some They may very possibly afford some amusement, but they do not conduce to amusement, but they do not conduce to amusement, but they do not conduce to temperance. temperance. temperance. And therefore, they are likely to do And therefore, they are likely to do And therefore, they are likely to do harm to our young men. You would agree harm to our young men. You would agree harm to our young men. You would agree with me there. with me there. with me there. Yes. Yes. Yes. And then again, to make the wisest of And then again, to make the wisest of And then again, to make the wisest of men say that nothing in his opinion is men say that nothing in his opinion is men say that nothing in his opinion is more glorious than when the tables are more glorious than when the tables are more glorious than when the tables are full of bread and meats and the full of bread and meats and the full of bread and meats and the cupbearer carries round wine which he cupbearer carries round wine which he cupbearer carries round wine which he draws from the bowl and pours into the draws from the bowl and pours into the draws from the bowl and pours into the cups. cups. cups. Is it fit or conducive to temperance for Is it fit or conducive to temperance for Is it fit or conducive to temperance for a young man to hear such words? Or the a young man to hear such words? Or the a young man to hear such words? Or the verse, The saddest of fates is to die verse, The saddest of fates is to die verse, The saddest of fates is to die and meet destiny from hunger. and meet destiny from hunger. and meet destiny from hunger. What would you say again to the tale of What would you say again to the tale of What would you say again to the tale of Zeus, who, while other gods and men were Zeus, who, while other gods and men were Zeus, who, while other gods and men were asleep and he the only person awake, lay asleep and he the only person awake, lay asleep and he the only person awake, lay devising plans, but forgot them all in a devising plans, but forgot them all in a devising plans, but forgot them all in a moment through his lust, and was so moment through his lust, and was so moment through his lust, and was so completely overcome at the sight of Hera completely overcome at the sight of Hera completely overcome at the sight of Hera that he would not even go into the hut, that he would not even go into the hut, that he would not even go into the hut, but wanted to lie with her on the but wanted to lie with her on the but wanted to lie with her on the ground, declaring that he had never been ground, declaring that he had never been ground, declaring that he had never been in such a state of rapture before, even in such a state of rapture before, even in such a state of rapture before, even when they first met one another without when they first met one another without when they first met one another without the knowledge of their parents. Or that the knowledge of their parents. Or that the knowledge of their parents. Or that other tale of how Hephaestus, because of other tale of how Hephaestus, because of other tale of how Hephaestus, because of similar goings-on, cast a chain around similar goings-on, cast a chain around similar goings-on, cast a chain around Ares and Aphrodite.

Ares and Aphrodite. Ares and Aphrodite. Indeed, he said, "I am strongly of Indeed, he said, "I am strongly of Indeed, he said, "I am strongly of opinion that they ought not to hear that opinion that they ought not to hear that opinion that they ought not to hear that sort of thing. sort of thing. sort of thing. But any deeds of endurance which are But any deeds of endurance which are But any deeds of endurance which are done or told by famous men, these they done or told by famous men, these they done or told by famous men, these they ought to see and hear. As for example, ought to see and hear. As for example, ought to see and hear. As for example, what is said in the verses what is said in the verses what is said in the verses 'He smote his breast and thus reproached 'He smote his breast and thus reproached 'He smote his breast and thus reproached his heart, "Endure, my heart, far worse his heart, "Endure, my heart, far worse his heart, "Endure, my heart, far worse hast thou endured." hast thou endured." hast thou endured." "Certainly," he said. "And in the next "Certainly," he said. "And in the next "Certainly," he said. "And in the next place, we must not let them be receivers place, we must not let them be receivers place, we must not let them be receivers of gifts or lovers of money." "Certainly of gifts or lovers of money." "Certainly of gifts or lovers of money." "Certainly not." not." not." "Neither must we sing to them of gifts "Neither must we sing to them of gifts "Neither must we sing to them of gifts persuading gods and persuading reverend persuading gods and persuading reverend persuading gods and persuading reverend kings. kings. kings. Neither is Phoenix, the tutor of Neither is Phoenix, the tutor of Neither is Phoenix, the tutor of Achilles, to be approved or deemed to Achilles, to be approved or deemed to Achilles, to be approved or deemed to have given his pupil good counsel when have given his pupil good counsel when have given his pupil good counsel when he told him he should take the gifts of he told him he should take the gifts of he told him he should take the gifts of the Greeks and assist them. the Greeks and assist them. the Greeks and assist them. But that without a gift, he should not But that without a gift, he should not But that without a gift, he should not lay aside his anger. lay aside his anger. lay aside his anger. Neither will we believe or acknowledge Neither will we believe or acknowledge Neither will we believe or acknowledge Achilles himself to have been such a Achilles himself to have been such a Achilles himself to have been such a lover of money that he took Agamemnon's lover of money that he took Agamemnon's lover of money that he took Agamemnon's gifts or that when he had received gifts or that when he had received gifts or that when he had received payment, he restored the dead body of payment, he restored the dead body of payment, he restored the dead body of Hector. But that without payment, he was Hector. But that without payment, he was Hector. But that without payment, he was unwilling to do so."

unwilling to do so." unwilling to do so." "Undoubtedly," he said, "these are not "Undoubtedly," he said, "these are not "Undoubtedly," he said, "these are not sentiments which can be approved." sentiments which can be approved." sentiments which can be approved." "Loving Homer as I do, I hardly like to "Loving Homer as I do, I hardly like to "Loving Homer as I do, I hardly like to say that in attributing these feelings say that in attributing these feelings say that in attributing these feelings to Achilles or in believing that they to Achilles or in believing that they to Achilles or in believing that they are truly attributed to him, he is are truly attributed to him, he is are truly attributed to him, he is guilty of downright impiety. As little guilty of downright impiety. As little guilty of downright impiety. As little can I believe the narrative of his can I believe the narrative of his can I believe the narrative of his insolence to Apollo where he says, 'Thou insolence to Apollo where he says, 'Thou insolence to Apollo where he says, 'Thou hast wronged me, O far-darter, most hast wronged me, O far-darter, most hast wronged me, O far-darter, most abominable of deities. Verily, I would abominable of deities. Verily, I would abominable of deities. Verily, I would be even with thee if I only had the be even with thee if I only had the be even with thee if I only had the power.' Or his insubordination to the power.' Or his insubordination to the power.' Or his insubordination to the river god on whose divinity he is ready river god on whose divinity he is ready river god on whose divinity he is ready to lay hands, or his offering to the to lay hands, or his offering to the to lay hands, or his offering to the dead Patroclus of his own hair, which dead Patroclus of his own hair, which dead Patroclus of his own hair, which had been previously dedicated to the had been previously dedicated to the had been previously dedicated to the river god Spercheius, and that he river god Spercheius, and that he river god Spercheius, and that he actually performed this vow, or that he actually performed this vow, or that he actually performed this vow, or that he dragged Hector around the tomb of dragged Hector around the tomb of dragged Hector around the tomb of Patroclus and slaughtered the captives Patroclus and slaughtered the captives Patroclus and slaughtered the captives at the pyre. Of all this, I cannot at the pyre. Of all this, I cannot at the pyre. Of all this, I cannot believe that he was guilty anymore than believe that he was guilty anymore than believe that he was guilty anymore than I can allow our citizens to believe that I can allow our citizens to believe that I can allow our citizens to believe that he, the wise Chiron's pupil, the son of he, the wise Chiron's pupil, the son of he, the wise Chiron's pupil, the son of a goddess and Peleus, who was the a goddess and Peleus, who was the a goddess and Peleus, who was the gentlest of men and third in descent gentlest of men and third in descent gentlest of men and third in descent from Zeus, was so disordered in his wits from Zeus, was so disordered in his wits from Zeus, was so disordered in his wits as to be at one time the slave of two as to be at one time the slave of two as to be at one time the slave of two seemingly inconsistent passions, seemingly inconsistent passions, seemingly inconsistent passions, meanness not untainted by avarice, meanness not untainted by avarice, meanness not untainted by avarice, combined with overweening contempt of combined with overweening contempt of combined with overweening contempt of gods and men.

gods and men. gods and men. "You are quite right," he replied. "You are quite right," he replied. "You are quite right," he replied. "And let us equally refuse to believe or "And let us equally refuse to believe or "And let us equally refuse to believe or allow to be repeated the tale of allow to be repeated the tale of allow to be repeated the tale of Theseus, son of Poseidon, or of Theseus, son of Poseidon, or of Theseus, son of Poseidon, or of Pirithous, son of Zeus, going forth as Pirithous, son of Zeus, going forth as Pirithous, son of Zeus, going forth as they did to perpetuate a horrid rape, or they did to perpetuate a horrid rape, or they did to perpetuate a horrid rape, or of any other hero or son of a god daring of any other hero or son of a god daring of any other hero or son of a god daring to do such impious and dreadful things to do such impious and dreadful things to do such impious and dreadful things as they falsely ascribe to them in our as they falsely ascribe to them in our as they falsely ascribe to them in our day. And let us further compel the poets day. And let us further compel the poets day. And let us further compel the poets to declare either that these acts were to declare either that these acts were to declare either that these acts were not done by them or that they were not not done by them or that they were not not done by them or that they were not the sons of gods. the sons of gods. the sons of gods. Both in the same breath they shall not Both in the same breath they shall not Both in the same breath they shall not be permitted to affirm. be permitted to affirm. be permitted to affirm. We will not have them trying to persuade We will not have them trying to persuade We will not have them trying to persuade our youth that the gods are the authors our youth that the gods are the authors our youth that the gods are the authors of evil and that heroes are no better of evil and that heroes are no better of evil and that heroes are no better than men, sentiments which, as we were than men, sentiments which, as we were than men, sentiments which, as we were saying, are neither pious nor true. For saying, are neither pious nor true. For saying, are neither pious nor true. For we have already proved that evil cannot we have already proved that evil cannot we have already proved that evil cannot come from the gods." "Assuredly not." come from the gods." "Assuredly not." come from the gods." "Assuredly not." "And further, they are likely to have a "And further, they are likely to have a "And further, they are likely to have a bad effect on those who hear them. For bad effect on those who hear them. For bad effect on those who hear them. For everybody will begin to excuse his own everybody will begin to excuse his own everybody will begin to excuse his own vices when he is convinced that similar vices when he is convinced that similar vices when he is convinced that similar wickedness is are always being wickedness is are always being wickedness is are always being perpetrated by the kindred of the gods, perpetrated by the kindred of the gods, perpetrated by the kindred of the gods, the relatives of Zeus, whose ancestral the relatives of Zeus, whose ancestral the relatives of Zeus, whose ancestral altar, the altar of Zeus, is aloft in altar, the altar of Zeus, is aloft in altar, the altar of Zeus, is aloft in air on the peak of Ida.

air on the peak of Ida. air on the peak of Ida. And who have the blood of deities yet And who have the blood of deities yet And who have the blood of deities yet flowing in their veins. flowing in their veins. flowing in their veins. And therefore, let us put an end to such And therefore, let us put an end to such And therefore, let us put an end to such tales, lest they engender laxity of tales, lest they engender laxity of tales, lest they engender laxity of morals among the young. morals among the young. morals among the young. By all means, he replied. By all means, he replied. By all means, he replied. But now that we are determining what But now that we are determining what But now that we are determining what classes of subjects are or are not to be classes of subjects are or are not to be classes of subjects are or are not to be spoken of, spoken of, spoken of, let us see whether any have been omitted let us see whether any have been omitted let us see whether any have been omitted by us. by us. by us. The manner in which gods and demigods The manner in which gods and demigods The manner in which gods and demigods and heroes and the world below should be and heroes and the world below should be and heroes and the world below should be treated has been already laid down. Very treated has been already laid down. Very treated has been already laid down. Very true. And what shall we say about men? true. And what shall we say about men? true. And what shall we say about men? That is clearly the remaining portion of That is clearly the remaining portion of That is clearly the remaining portion of our subject. Clearly so. But we are not our subject. Clearly so. But we are not our subject. Clearly so. But we are not in a condition to answer this question in a condition to answer this question in a condition to answer this question at present, my friend. Why not? Because, at present, my friend. Why not? Because, at present, my friend. Why not? Because, if I am not mistaken, we shall have to if I am not mistaken, we shall have to if I am not mistaken, we shall have to say that about men, poets and say that about men, poets and say that about men, poets and storytellers are guilty of making the storytellers are guilty of making the storytellers are guilty of making the gravest misstatements when they tell us gravest misstatements when they tell us gravest misstatements when they tell us that wicked men are often happy and the that wicked men are often happy and the that wicked men are often happy and the good miserable, and that the injustice good miserable, and that the injustice good miserable, and that the injustice is profitable when undetected, but that is profitable when undetected, but that is profitable when undetected, but that justice is a man's own loss and justice is a man's own loss and justice is a man's own loss and another's gain.

another's gain. another's gain. These things we shall forbid them to These things we shall forbid them to These things we shall forbid them to utter and command them to sing and say utter and command them to sing and say utter and command them to sing and say the opposite. the opposite. the opposite. To be sure we shall, he replied. To be sure we shall, he replied. To be sure we shall, he replied. But if you admit that I am right in But if you admit that I am right in But if you admit that I am right in this, then I shall maintain that you this, then I shall maintain that you this, then I shall maintain that you have implied the principle for which we have implied the principle for which we have implied the principle for which we have been all along contending. have been all along contending. have been all along contending. I grant the truth of your inference. I grant the truth of your inference. I grant the truth of your inference. That such things are or are not to be That such things are or are not to be That such things are or are not to be said about men is a question which we said about men is a question which we said about men is a question which we cannot determine until we have cannot determine until we have cannot determine until we have discovered what justice is and how discovered what justice is and how discovered what justice is and how naturally advantageous to the possessor, naturally advantageous to the possessor, naturally advantageous to the possessor, whether he seem to be just or not. whether he seem to be just or not. whether he seem to be just or not. Most true, he said. Most true, he said. Most true, he said. Enough of the subjects of poetry. Let us Enough of the subjects of poetry. Let us Enough of the subjects of poetry. Let us now speak of the style, and when this now speak of the style, and when this now speak of the style, and when this has been considered, both matter and has been considered, both matter and has been considered, both matter and manner will have been completely manner will have been completely manner will have been completely treated. treated. treated. I do not understand what you mean, said I do not understand what you mean, said I do not understand what you mean, said Adeimantus. Adeimantus. Adeimantus. Then I must make you understand, and Then I must make you understand, and Then I must make you understand, and perhaps I may be more intelligible if I perhaps I may be more intelligible if I perhaps I may be more intelligible if I put the matter in this way.

put the matter in this way. put the matter in this way. You are aware, I suppose, that all You are aware, I suppose, that all You are aware, I suppose, that all mythology and poetry is a narration of mythology and poetry is a narration of mythology and poetry is a narration of events, either past, present, or to events, either past, present, or to events, either past, present, or to come. come. come. Certainly, he replied. Certainly, he replied. Certainly, he replied. And narration may be either simple And narration may be either simple And narration may be either simple narration or imitation, or a union of narration or imitation, or a union of narration or imitation, or a union of the two. the two. the two. Well, that again, he said, I do not Well, that again, he said, I do not Well, that again, he said, I do not quite understand. quite understand. quite understand. I fear that I must be a ridiculous I fear that I must be a ridiculous I fear that I must be a ridiculous teacher when I have so much difficulty teacher when I have so much difficulty teacher when I have so much difficulty in making myself apprehended. Like a bad in making myself apprehended. Like a bad in making myself apprehended. Like a bad speaker, therefore, I will not take the speaker, therefore, I will not take the speaker, therefore, I will not take the whole of the subject, but will break a whole of the subject, but will break a whole of the subject, but will break a piece off in illustration of my meaning. piece off in illustration of my meaning. piece off in illustration of my meaning. You know the first lines of the Iliad, You know the first lines of the Iliad, You know the first lines of the Iliad, in which the poet says that Chryses in which the poet says that Chryses in which the poet says that Chryses prayed Agamemnon to release his prayed Agamemnon to release his prayed Agamemnon to release his daughter, and that Agamemnon flew into a daughter, and that Agamemnon flew into a daughter, and that Agamemnon flew into a passion with him, whereupon Chryses, passion with him, whereupon Chryses, passion with him, whereupon Chryses, failing of his object, invoked the anger failing of his object, invoked the anger failing of his object, invoked the anger of the god against the Achaeans. of the god against the Achaeans. of the god against the Achaeans. Now, as far as these lines, and he Now, as far as these lines, and he Now, as far as these lines, and he prayed all the Greeks, but especially prayed all the Greeks, but especially prayed all the Greeks, but especially the two sons of Atreus, the chiefs of the two sons of Atreus, the chiefs of the two sons of Atreus, the chiefs of the people, the poet is speaking in his the people, the poet is speaking in his the people, the poet is speaking in his own person. He never leads us to suppose own person. He never leads us to suppose own person. He never leads us to suppose that he is anyone else.

that he is anyone else. that he is anyone else. But in what follows, he takes the person But in what follows, he takes the person But in what follows, he takes the person of Chryses, and then he does all that he of Chryses, and then he does all that he of Chryses, and then he does all that he can to make us believe that the speaker can to make us believe that the speaker can to make us believe that the speaker is not Homer, but the aged priest is not Homer, but the aged priest is not Homer, but the aged priest himself. himself. himself. And in this double form, he has cast the And in this double form, he has cast the And in this double form, he has cast the entire narrative of the events which entire narrative of the events which entire narrative of the events which occurred at Troy and in Ithaca and occurred at Troy and in Ithaca and occurred at Troy and in Ithaca and throughout the Odyssey, which occurred throughout the Odyssey, which occurred throughout the Odyssey, which occurred at Troy and in Ithaca and throughout the at Troy and in Ithaca and throughout the at Troy and in Ithaca and throughout the Odyssey. Odyssey. Odyssey. Yes, and a narrative it remains both in Yes, and a narrative it remains both in Yes, and a narrative it remains both in the speeches which the poet recites from the speeches which the poet recites from the speeches which the poet recites from time to time and in the intermediate time to time and in the intermediate time to time and in the intermediate passages. Quite true. But when the poet passages. Quite true. But when the poet passages. Quite true. But when the poet speaks in the person of another, may we speaks in the person of another, may we speaks in the person of another, may we not say that he assimilates his style to not say that he assimilates his style to not say that he assimilates his style to that of a person who as he informs you that of a person who as he informs you that of a person who as he informs you is going to speak? Certainly. And this is going to speak? Certainly. And this is going to speak? Certainly. And this assimilation of himself to another, assimilation of himself to another, assimilation of himself to another, either by the use of voice or gesture, either by the use of voice or gesture, either by the use of voice or gesture, is the imitation of the person whose is the imitation of the person whose is the imitation of the person whose character he assumes. Of course. character he assumes. Of course. character he assumes. Of course. Then in this case, the narrative of the Then in this case, the narrative of the Then in this case, the narrative of the poet may be said to proceed by way of poet may be said to proceed by way of poet may be said to proceed by way of imitation.

imitation. imitation. Very true. Or if the poet everywhere Very true. Or if the poet everywhere Very true. Or if the poet everywhere appears and never conceals himself, then appears and never conceals himself, then appears and never conceals himself, then again the imitation is dropped and his again the imitation is dropped and his again the imitation is dropped and his poetry becomes simple narration. poetry becomes simple narration. poetry becomes simple narration. However, in order that I may make my However, in order that I may make my However, in order that I may make my meaning quite clear and that you may no meaning quite clear and that you may no meaning quite clear and that you may no more say, I don't understand. more say, I don't understand. more say, I don't understand. I will show how the change might be I will show how the change might be I will show how the change might be affected. affected. affected. If Homer had said, the priest came If Homer had said, the priest came If Homer had said, the priest came having his daughter's ransom in his having his daughter's ransom in his having his daughter's ransom in his hands supplicating the Achaeans and hands supplicating the Achaeans and hands supplicating the Achaeans and above all the kings, and then if instead above all the kings, and then if instead above all the kings, and then if instead of speaking in the person of Chryses, he of speaking in the person of Chryses, he of speaking in the person of Chryses, he had continued in his own person, the had continued in his own person, the had continued in his own person, the words would have been not imitation but words would have been not imitation but words would have been not imitation but simple narration. simple narration. simple narration. The passage would have run as follows. The passage would have run as follows. The passage would have run as follows. I am no poet and therefore I drop the I am no poet and therefore I drop the I am no poet and therefore I drop the meter. meter. meter. A priest came and prayed the gods on A priest came and prayed the gods on A priest came and prayed the gods on behalf of the Greeks that they might behalf of the Greeks that they might behalf of the Greeks that they might capture Troy and return safely home, but capture Troy and return safely home, but capture Troy and return safely home, but begged that they would give him back his begged that they would give him back his begged that they would give him back his daughter and take the ransom which he daughter and take the ransom which he daughter and take the ransom which he brought and respect the god.

brought and respect the god. brought and respect the god. Thus he spoke and the other Greeks Thus he spoke and the other Greeks Thus he spoke and the other Greeks revered the priest and assented. revered the priest and assented. revered the priest and assented. But Agamemnon was wroth and bade him But Agamemnon was wroth and bade him But Agamemnon was wroth and bade him depart and not come again, lest the depart and not come again, lest the depart and not come again, lest the staff and chaplets of the god should be staff and chaplets of the god should be staff and chaplets of the god should be of no avail to him. of no avail to him. of no avail to him. "The daughter of Chryses should not be "The daughter of Chryses should not be "The daughter of Chryses should not be released," he said. "She should grow old released," he said. "She should grow old released," he said. "She should grow old with him in Argos." with him in Argos." with him in Argos." And then he told him to go away and not And then he told him to go away and not And then he told him to go away and not to provoke him if he intended to get to provoke him if he intended to get to provoke him if he intended to get home unscathed. home unscathed. home unscathed. And the old man went away in fear and And the old man went away in fear and And the old man went away in fear and silence. And when he had left the camp, silence. And when he had left the camp, silence. And when he had left the camp, he called upon Apollo by his many names, he called upon Apollo by his many names, he called upon Apollo by his many names, reminding him of everything which he had reminding him of everything which he had reminding him of everything which he had done pleasing to him, whether in done pleasing to him, whether in done pleasing to him, whether in building his temples or in offering building his temples or in offering building his temples or in offering sacrifice, and praying that his good sacrifice, and praying that his good sacrifice, and praying that his good deeds might be returned to him, and that deeds might be returned to him, and that deeds might be returned to him, and that the Achaeans might expiate his tears by the Achaeans might expiate his tears by the Achaeans might expiate his tears by the arrows of the god. the arrows of the god. the arrows of the god. And so on. And so on. And so on. In this way, the whole becomes simple In this way, the whole becomes simple In this way, the whole becomes simple narrative. narrative. narrative. "I understand," he said. Or you may "I understand," he said. Or you may "I understand," he said. Or you may suppose the opposite case, that the suppose the opposite case, that the suppose the opposite case, that the intermediate passages are omitted and intermediate passages are omitted and intermediate passages are omitted and the dialogue only left. "That also," he the dialogue only left. "That also," he the dialogue only left. "That also," he said, "I understand. You mean, for said, "I understand. You mean, for said, "I understand. You mean, for example, as in tragedy."

example, as in tragedy." example, as in tragedy." You have conceived my meaning perfectly. You have conceived my meaning perfectly. You have conceived my meaning perfectly. And if I mistake not, what you failed to And if I mistake not, what you failed to And if I mistake not, what you failed to apprehend before is now made clear to apprehend before is now made clear to apprehend before is now made clear to you, that poetry and mythology are in you, that poetry and mythology are in you, that poetry and mythology are in some cases wholly imitative. Instances some cases wholly imitative. Instances some cases wholly imitative. Instances of this are supplied by tragedy and of this are supplied by tragedy and of this are supplied by tragedy and comedy. comedy. comedy. There is likewise the opposite style, in There is likewise the opposite style, in There is likewise the opposite style, in which the poet is the only speaker. Of which the poet is the only speaker. Of which the poet is the only speaker. Of this, the dithyramb affords the best this, the dithyramb affords the best this, the dithyramb affords the best example. example. example. And the combination of both is found in And the combination of both is found in And the combination of both is found in epic and in several other styles of epic and in several other styles of epic and in several other styles of poetry. poetry. poetry. Do I take you with me? Do I take you with me? Do I take you with me? "Yes," "Yes," "Yes," he said. "I see now what you meant." he said. "I see now what you meant." he said. "I see now what you meant." I will ask you to remember also what I I will ask you to remember also what I I will ask you to remember also what I began by saying, that we had done with began by saying, that we had done with began by saying, that we had done with the subject and might proceed to the the subject and might proceed to the the subject and might proceed to the style. style. style. Yes, I remember. Yes, I remember. Yes, I remember. In saying this, I intended to imply that In saying this, I intended to imply that In saying this, I intended to imply that we must come to an understanding about we must come to an understanding about we must come to an understanding about the mimetic art. About the mimetic art. the mimetic art. About the mimetic art. the mimetic art. About the mimetic art. Whether the poets, in narrating their Whether the poets, in narrating their Whether the poets, in narrating their stories, are to be allowed by us to stories, are to be allowed by us to stories, are to be allowed by us to imitate, and if so, whether in whole or imitate, and if so, whether in whole or imitate, and if so, whether in whole or in part, and if the latter, in what in part, and if the latter, in what in part, and if the latter, in what parts, or should all imitation be parts, or should all imitation be parts, or should all imitation be prohibited?

prohibited? prohibited? You mean, I suspect, to ask whether You mean, I suspect, to ask whether You mean, I suspect, to ask whether tragedy and comedy shall be admitted tragedy and comedy shall be admitted tragedy and comedy shall be admitted into our state. into our state. into our state. Yes, I said, but there may be more than Yes, I said, but there may be more than Yes, I said, but there may be more than this in question. I really do not know, this in question. I really do not know, this in question. I really do not know, as yet, but whither the argument may as yet, but whither the argument may as yet, but whither the argument may blow, thither we go. blow, thither we go. blow, thither we go. And go we will, he said. And go we will, he said. And go we will, he said. Then, Adeimantus, Then, Adeimantus, Then, Adeimantus, let me ask you whether our guardians let me ask you whether our guardians let me ask you whether our guardians ought to be imitators, or rather, has ought to be imitators, or rather, has ought to be imitators, or rather, has not this question been decided by the not this question been decided by the not this question been decided by the rule already laid down that one man can rule already laid down that one man can rule already laid down that one man can only do one thing well, and not many, only do one thing well, and not many, only do one thing well, and not many, and that if he attempt many, he will and that if he attempt many, he will and that if he attempt many, he will altogether fail of gaining much altogether fail of gaining much altogether fail of gaining much reputation in any? reputation in any? reputation in any? Certainly. And this is equally true of Certainly. And this is equally true of Certainly. And this is equally true of imitation. No man can imitate many imitation. No man can imitate many imitation. No man can imitate many things as well as he would imitate a things as well as he would imitate a things as well as he would imitate a single one. single one. single one. He cannot. He cannot. He cannot. Then the same person would hardly be Then the same person would hardly be Then the same person would hardly be able to play a serious part in life, and able to play a serious part in life, and able to play a serious part in life, and at the same time to be an imitator, and at the same time to be an imitator, and at the same time to be an imitator, and imitate many other parts as well. For imitate many other parts as well. For imitate many other parts as well. For even when two species of imitation are even when two species of imitation are even when two species of imitation are nearly allied, the same person cannot nearly allied, the same person cannot nearly allied, the same person cannot succeed in both, as, for example, the succeed in both, as, for example, the succeed in both, as, for example, the writers of tragedy and comedy. Did you writers of tragedy and comedy. Did you writers of tragedy and comedy. Did you not just now call them imitations?

not just now call them imitations? not just now call them imitations? Ah, yes, I did, and you were right in Ah, yes, I did, and you were right in Ah, yes, I did, and you were right in thinking that the same persons cannot thinking that the same persons cannot thinking that the same persons cannot succeed in both. Any more than they can succeed in both. Any more than they can succeed in both. Any more than they can be rhapsodists and actors at once? True. be rhapsodists and actors at once? True. be rhapsodists and actors at once? True. Neither are comic and tragic actors the Neither are comic and tragic actors the Neither are comic and tragic actors the same, yet all these things are but same, yet all these things are but same, yet all these things are but imitations. They are so. imitations. They are so. imitations. They are so. And human nature, Adeimantus, appears to And human nature, Adeimantus, appears to And human nature, Adeimantus, appears to have been coined into yet smaller pieces have been coined into yet smaller pieces have been coined into yet smaller pieces and to be as incapable of imitating many and to be as incapable of imitating many and to be as incapable of imitating many things well as of performing well the things well as of performing well the things well as of performing well the actions of which the imitations are actions of which the imitations are actions of which the imitations are copies. copies. copies. Quite true, he replied. Quite true, he replied. Quite true, he replied. If then we adhere to our original notion If then we adhere to our original notion If then we adhere to our original notion and bear in mind that our guardians, and bear in mind that our guardians, and bear in mind that our guardians, setting aside every other business, are setting aside every other business, are setting aside every other business, are to dedicate themselves wholly to the to dedicate themselves wholly to the to dedicate themselves wholly to the maintenance of freedom in the state, maintenance of freedom in the state, maintenance of freedom in the state, making this their craft and engaging in making this their craft and engaging in making this their craft and engaging in no work which does not bear on this end, no work which does not bear on this end, no work which does not bear on this end, they ought not to practice or imitate they ought not to practice or imitate they ought not to practice or imitate anything else. If they imitate at all, anything else. If they imitate at all, anything else. If they imitate at all, they should imitate from youth upward they should imitate from youth upward they should imitate from youth upward only those characters which are suitable only those characters which are suitable only those characters which are suitable to their profession, the courageous, to their profession, the courageous, to their profession, the courageous, temperate, holy, free, and the like. But temperate, holy, free, and the like. But temperate, holy, free, and the like. But they should not depict or be skillful at they should not depict or be skillful at they should not depict or be skillful at imitating any kind of illiberality or imitating any kind of illiberality or imitating any kind of illiberality or baseness, lest from imitation they baseness, lest from imitation they baseness, lest from imitation they should come to be what they imitate.

should come to be what they imitate. should come to be what they imitate. Did you never observe how imitations, Did you never observe how imitations, Did you never observe how imitations, beginning in early youth and continuing beginning in early youth and continuing beginning in early youth and continuing far into life, at length grow into far into life, at length grow into far into life, at length grow into habits and become a second nature, habits and become a second nature, habits and become a second nature, affecting body, voice, and mind? affecting body, voice, and mind? affecting body, voice, and mind? Yes, certainly, he said. Yes, certainly, he said. Yes, certainly, he said. Then, I said, we will not allow those Then, I said, we will not allow those Then, I said, we will not allow those for whom we profess a care and of whom for whom we profess a care and of whom for whom we profess a care and of whom we say that they ought to be good men to we say that they ought to be good men to we say that they ought to be good men to imitate a woman, whether young or old, imitate a woman, whether young or old, imitate a woman, whether young or old, quarreling with her husband or striving quarreling with her husband or striving quarreling with her husband or striving and vaunting against the gods in conceit and vaunting against the gods in conceit and vaunting against the gods in conceit of her happiness, or when she is in of her happiness, or when she is in of her happiness, or when she is in affliction or sorrow or weeping, and affliction or sorrow or weeping, and affliction or sorrow or weeping, and certainly not one who is in sickness, certainly not one who is in sickness, certainly not one who is in sickness, love, or labor. Very right, he said. love, or labor. Very right, he said. love, or labor. Very right, he said. Neither must they represent slaves, male Neither must they represent slaves, male Neither must they represent slaves, male or female, performing the offices of or female, performing the offices of or female, performing the offices of slaves. slaves. slaves. They must not. And surely not bad men, They must not. And surely not bad men, They must not. And surely not bad men, whether cowards or any others, who do do whether cowards or any others, who do do whether cowards or any others, who do do reverse of what we have just been reverse of what we have just been reverse of what we have just been prescribing, who scold or mock or revile prescribing, who scold or mock or revile prescribing, who scold or mock or revile one another in drink or out of drink, or one another in drink or out of drink, or one another in drink or out of drink, or who in any other manner sin against who in any other manner sin against who in any other manner sin against themselves and their neighbors in word themselves and their neighbors in word themselves and their neighbors in word or deed, as the manner of such is.

or deed, as the manner of such is. or deed, as the manner of such is. Neither should they be trained to Neither should they be trained to Neither should they be trained to imitate the action or speech of men or imitate the action or speech of men or imitate the action or speech of men or women who are mad or bad, for madness, women who are mad or bad, for madness, women who are mad or bad, for madness, like vice, is to be known but not to be like vice, is to be known but not to be like vice, is to be known but not to be practiced or imitated. practiced or imitated. practiced or imitated. "Very true," he replied. "Neither may "Very true," he replied. "Neither may "Very true," he replied. "Neither may they imitate smiths or other artificers they imitate smiths or other artificers they imitate smiths or other artificers or oarsmen or boatswains or the like." or oarsmen or boatswains or the like." or oarsmen or boatswains or the like." "How can they?" he said, "when they are "How can they?" he said, "when they are "How can they?" he said, "when they are not allowed to apply their minds to the not allowed to apply their minds to the not allowed to apply their minds to the callings of any of these?" "Nor may they callings of any of these?" "Nor may they callings of any of these?" "Nor may they imitate the neighing of horses, the imitate the neighing of horses, the imitate the neighing of horses, the bellowing of bulls, the murmur of rivers bellowing of bulls, the murmur of rivers bellowing of bulls, the murmur of rivers and roar of the ocean, the thunder, and and roar of the ocean, the thunder, and and roar of the ocean, the thunder, and all that sort of thing." all that sort of thing." all that sort of thing." "Nay," he said, "if madness be "Nay," he said, "if madness be "Nay," he said, "if madness be forbidden, neither may they copy the forbidden, neither may they copy the forbidden, neither may they copy the behavior of madmen." behavior of madmen." behavior of madmen." "You mean," I said, "if I understand you "You mean," I said, "if I understand you "You mean," I said, "if I understand you aright, that there is one sort of aright, that there is one sort of aright, that there is one sort of narrative style which may be employed by narrative style which may be employed by narrative style which may be employed by a truly good man when he has anything to a truly good man when he has anything to a truly good man when he has anything to say, say, say, and that another sort will be used by a and that another sort will be used by a and that another sort will be used by a man of an opposite character and man of an opposite character and man of an opposite character and education?" education?" education?" "And which are these two sorts?" he "And which are these two sorts?" he "And which are these two sorts?" he asked.

asked. asked. "Suppose," I answered, "that a just and "Suppose," I answered, "that a just and "Suppose," I answered, "that a just and good man in the course of a narration good man in the course of a narration good man in the course of a narration comes on some saying or action of comes on some saying or action of comes on some saying or action of another good man, another good man, another good man, I should imagine that he would like to I should imagine that he would like to I should imagine that he would like to personate him, and will not be ashamed personate him, and will not be ashamed personate him, and will not be ashamed of this sort of imitation. of this sort of imitation. of this sort of imitation. He will be most ready to play the part He will be most ready to play the part He will be most ready to play the part of a good man when he is acting firmly of a good man when he is acting firmly of a good man when he is acting firmly and wisely, and wisely, and wisely, and a less degree when he is overtaken and a less degree when he is overtaken and a less degree when he is overtaken by illness or love or drink or has met by illness or love or drink or has met by illness or love or drink or has met with any other disaster. with any other disaster. with any other disaster. But when he comes to a character which But when he comes to a character which But when he comes to a character which is unworthy of him, he will not make a is unworthy of him, he will not make a is unworthy of him, he will not make a study of that. He will disdain such a study of that. He will disdain such a study of that. He will disdain such a person, and will assume his likeness, if person, and will assume his likeness, if person, and will assume his likeness, if at all, for a moment only when he is at all, for a moment only when he is at all, for a moment only when he is performing some good action. At other performing some good action. At other performing some good action. At other times, he will be ashamed to play a part times, he will be ashamed to play a part times, he will be ashamed to play a part which he has never practiced, nor will which he has never practiced, nor will which he has never practiced, nor will he like to fashion and frame himself he like to fashion and frame himself he like to fashion and frame himself after the baser models. He feels the after the baser models. He feels the after the baser models. He feels the employment of such an art, unless in employment of such an art, unless in employment of such an art, unless in jest, to be beneath him, and his mind jest, to be beneath him, and his mind jest, to be beneath him, and his mind revolts at it. "So, I should expect." he revolts at it. "So, I should expect." he revolts at it. "So, I should expect." he replied.

replied. replied. "Then, he will adopt a mode of narration "Then, he will adopt a mode of narration "Then, he will adopt a mode of narration such as we have illustrated out of such as we have illustrated out of such as we have illustrated out of Homer. That is to say, his style will be Homer. That is to say, his style will be Homer. That is to say, his style will be both imitative and narrative. both imitative and narrative. both imitative and narrative. But, there will be very little of the But, there will be very little of the But, there will be very little of the former and a great deal of the latter. former and a great deal of the latter. former and a great deal of the latter. Do you agree?" Do you agree?" Do you agree?" "Certainly." he said. "That is the model "Certainly." he said. "That is the model "Certainly." he said. "That is the model which such a speaker must necessarily which such a speaker must necessarily which such a speaker must necessarily take." take." take." "But, there is another sort of character "But, there is another sort of character "But, there is another sort of character who will narrate anything, and the worse who will narrate anything, and the worse who will narrate anything, and the worse he is, the more unscrupulous he will be. he is, the more unscrupulous he will be. he is, the more unscrupulous he will be. Nothing will be too bad for him, and he Nothing will be too bad for him, and he Nothing will be too bad for him, and he will be ready to imitate anything. Not will be ready to imitate anything. Not will be ready to imitate anything. Not as a joke, but in right good earnest and as a joke, but in right good earnest and as a joke, but in right good earnest and before a large company. As I was just before a large company. As I was just before a large company. As I was just now saying, he will attempt to represent now saying, he will attempt to represent now saying, he will attempt to represent the role of thunder, the noise of wind the role of thunder, the noise of wind the role of thunder, the noise of wind and hail, or the creaking of wheels and and hail, or the creaking of wheels and and hail, or the creaking of wheels and pulleys, and the various sounds of pulleys, and the various sounds of pulleys, and the various sounds of flutes, pipes, trumpets, and all sorts flutes, pipes, trumpets, and all sorts flutes, pipes, trumpets, and all sorts of instruments. of instruments. of instruments. He will bark like a dog, bleat like a He will bark like a dog, bleat like a He will bark like a dog, bleat like a sheep, or crow like a sheep, or crow like a sheep, or crow like a His entire art will consist in imitation His entire art will consist in imitation His entire art will consist in imitation of voice and gesture, and there will be of voice and gesture, and there will be of voice and gesture, and there will be very little narration.

very little narration. very little narration. That, he said, will be his mode of That, he said, will be his mode of That, he said, will be his mode of speaking. speaking. speaking. These, then, are the two kinds of style? These, then, are the two kinds of style? These, then, are the two kinds of style? Yes. "And you would agree with me in Yes. "And you would agree with me in Yes. "And you would agree with me in saying that one of them is simple and saying that one of them is simple and saying that one of them is simple and has but slight changes, and if the has but slight changes, and if the has but slight changes, and if the harmony and rhythm are also chosen for harmony and rhythm are also chosen for harmony and rhythm are also chosen for their simplicity, the result is that the their simplicity, the result is that the their simplicity, the result is that the speaker, if he speaks correctly, is speaker, if he speaks correctly, is speaker, if he speaks correctly, is always pretty much the same in style, always pretty much the same in style, always pretty much the same in style, and he will keep within the limits of a and he will keep within the limits of a and he will keep within the limits of a single harmony, for the changes are not single harmony, for the changes are not single harmony, for the changes are not great. And in like manner, he will make great. And in like manner, he will make great. And in like manner, he will make use of nearly the same rhythm. use of nearly the same rhythm. use of nearly the same rhythm. "That is quite true," he said. "Whereas "That is quite true," he said. "Whereas "That is quite true," he said. "Whereas the other requires all sorts of the other requires all sorts of the other requires all sorts of harmonies and all sorts of rhythms, if harmonies and all sorts of rhythms, if harmonies and all sorts of rhythms, if the music and the style are to the music and the style are to the music and the style are to correspond, because the style has all correspond, because the style has all correspond, because the style has all sorts of changes." sorts of changes." sorts of changes." "That is also perfectly true," "That is also perfectly true," "That is also perfectly true," they replied. "And do not the two they replied. "And do not the two they replied. "And do not the two styles, or the mixture of the two, styles, or the mixture of the two, styles, or the mixture of the two, comprehend all poetry and every form of comprehend all poetry and every form of comprehend all poetry and every form of expression in words? No one can say expression in words? No one can say expression in words? No one can say anything except in one or other of them anything except in one or other of them anything except in one or other of them or in both together."

or in both together." or in both together." "They include all," he said. "And shall "They include all," he said. "And shall "They include all," he said. "And shall we receive into our state all the three we receive into our state all the three we receive into our state all the three styles, or one only of the two unmixed styles, or one only of the two unmixed styles, or one only of the two unmixed styles, or would you include the mixed?" styles, or would you include the mixed?" styles, or would you include the mixed?" "I should prefer only to admit the pure "I should prefer only to admit the pure "I should prefer only to admit the pure imitator of virtue." imitator of virtue." imitator of virtue." "Yes," I said, "Adamantus, but the mixed "Yes," I said, "Adamantus, but the mixed "Yes," I said, "Adamantus, but the mixed style is also very charming, and indeed style is also very charming, and indeed style is also very charming, and indeed the panamimic, which is the opposite of the panamimic, which is the opposite of the panamimic, which is the opposite of the one chosen by you, is the most the one chosen by you, is the most the one chosen by you, is the most popular style with children and their popular style with children and their popular style with children and their attendants, and with the world in attendants, and with the world in attendants, and with the world in general." "I do not deny it. But I general." "I do not deny it. But I general." "I do not deny it. But I suppose you would argue that such a suppose you would argue that such a suppose you would argue that such a style is unsuitable to our state, in style is unsuitable to our state, in style is unsuitable to our state, in which human nature is not twofold or which human nature is not twofold or which human nature is not twofold or manifold, for one man plays one part manifold, for one man plays one part manifold, for one man plays one part only." only." only." "Yes, quite unsuitable. And this is the "Yes, quite unsuitable. And this is the "Yes, quite unsuitable. And this is the reason why in our state, and in our reason why in our state, and in our reason why in our state, and in our state only, we shall find a shoemaker to state only, we shall find a shoemaker to state only, we shall find a shoemaker to be a shoemaker and not a pilot also, and be a shoemaker and not a pilot also, and be a shoemaker and not a pilot also, and a husbandman to be a husbandman and not a husbandman to be a husbandman and not a husbandman to be a husbandman and not a die-cast also, and a soldier a soldier a die-cast also, and a soldier a soldier a die-cast also, and a soldier a soldier and not a trader also, and the same and not a trader also, and the same and not a trader also, and the same throughout." "True," he said.

throughout." "True," he said. throughout." "True," he said. "And therefore, when any one of these "And therefore, when any one of these "And therefore, when any one of these panamimic gentlemen, who are so clever panamimic gentlemen, who are so clever panamimic gentlemen, who are so clever that they can imitate anything, comes to that they can imitate anything, comes to that they can imitate anything, comes to us and makes a proposal to exhibit us and makes a proposal to exhibit us and makes a proposal to exhibit himself and his poetry, we will fall himself and his poetry, we will fall himself and his poetry, we will fall down and worship him as a sweet and holy down and worship him as a sweet and holy down and worship him as a sweet and holy and wonderful being, but we must also and wonderful being, but we must also and wonderful being, but we must also inform him that in our state such as he inform him that in our state such as he inform him that in our state such as he are not permitted to exist. The law will are not permitted to exist. The law will are not permitted to exist. The law will not allow them. not allow them. not allow them. And so, when we have anointed him with And so, when we have anointed him with And so, when we have anointed him with myrrh and set a garland of wool upon his myrrh and set a garland of wool upon his myrrh and set a garland of wool upon his head, we shall send him away to another head, we shall send him away to another head, we shall send him away to another city. For we mean to employ for our city. For we mean to employ for our city. For we mean to employ for our souls' health the rougher and severer souls' health the rougher and severer souls' health the rougher and severer poet or storyteller who will imitate the poet or storyteller who will imitate the poet or storyteller who will imitate the style of the virtuous only, and will style of the virtuous only, and will style of the virtuous only, and will follow those models which we prescribed follow those models which we prescribed follow those models which we prescribed at first when we began the education of at first when we began the education of at first when we began the education of our soldiers. our soldiers. our soldiers. "We certainly will," he said, "if we "We certainly will," he said, "if we "We certainly will," he said, "if we have the power." have the power." have the power." Then now, my friend, I said, "That part Then now, my friend, I said, "That part Then now, my friend, I said, "That part of music or literary education which of music or literary education which of music or literary education which relates to the story or myth may be relates to the story or myth may be relates to the story or myth may be considered to be finished.

considered to be finished. considered to be finished. For the matter and manner have both been For the matter and manner have both been For the matter and manner have both been discussed." discussed." discussed." "I think so, too," he said. "I think so, too," he said. "I think so, too," he said. End of Book 3, Part 1. Book 3, Part 2 of The Republic by Plato. Book 3, Part 2 of The Republic by Plato. This LibriVox recording is in the public This LibriVox recording is in the public This LibriVox recording is in the public domain, read by Bob Neufeld. domain, read by Bob Neufeld. domain, read by Bob Neufeld. Next in order will follow melody and Next in order will follow melody and Next in order will follow melody and song. "That is obvious. Everyone can see song. "That is obvious. Everyone can see song. "That is obvious. Everyone can see already what we are to say about them if already what we are to say about them if already what we are to say about them if we are to be consistent with ourselves." we are to be consistent with ourselves." we are to be consistent with ourselves." "I fear," said Glaucon, laughing, "that "I fear," said Glaucon, laughing, "that "I fear," said Glaucon, laughing, "that the word everyone hardly includes me, the word everyone hardly includes me, the word everyone hardly includes me, for I cannot at the moment say what they for I cannot at the moment say what they for I cannot at the moment say what they should be, though I may guess." should be, though I may guess." should be, though I may guess." "At any rate, you can tell that a song "At any rate, you can tell that a song "At any rate, you can tell that a song or ode has three parts. The words, the or ode has three parts. The words, the or ode has three parts. The words, the melody, and the rhythm. That degree of melody, and the rhythm. That degree of melody, and the rhythm. That degree of knowledge I may presuppose.

knowledge I may presuppose. knowledge I may presuppose. Oh, yes, he said. So much as that you Oh, yes, he said. So much as that you Oh, yes, he said. So much as that you may. may. may. And as for the words, there will surely And as for the words, there will surely And as for the words, there will surely be no difference between words which are be no difference between words which are be no difference between words which are which are not set to music. Both will which are not set to music. Both will which are not set to music. Both will conform to the same laws. And these have conform to the same laws. And these have conform to the same laws. And these have been already determined by us. Yes. And been already determined by us. Yes. And been already determined by us. Yes. And the melody and rhythm will depend upon the melody and rhythm will depend upon the melody and rhythm will depend upon the words. Certainly. the words. Certainly. the words. Certainly. We were saying when we spoke of the We were saying when we spoke of the We were saying when we spoke of the subject matter that we had no need of subject matter that we had no need of subject matter that we had no need of lamentation and strains of sorrow. lamentation and strains of sorrow. lamentation and strains of sorrow. True. And which are the harmonies True. And which are the harmonies True. And which are the harmonies expressive of sorrow? You are musical expressive of sorrow? You are musical expressive of sorrow? You are musical and can tell me. and can tell me. and can tell me. The harmonics which you mean are the The harmonics which you mean are the The harmonics which you mean are the mixed or tenor Lydian and the full-toned mixed or tenor Lydian and the full-toned mixed or tenor Lydian and the full-toned or bass Lydian and such like. or bass Lydian and such like. or bass Lydian and such like. These then, I said, must be banished. These then, I said, must be banished. These then, I said, must be banished. Even to women who have a character to Even to women who have a character to Even to women who have a character to maintain they are of no use and much maintain they are of no use and much maintain they are of no use and much less to men. Certainly. less to men. Certainly. less to men. Certainly. In the next place, drunkenness and In the next place, drunkenness and In the next place, drunkenness and softness and indolence are utterly softness and indolence are utterly softness and indolence are utterly unbecoming the character of our unbecoming the character of our unbecoming the character of our guardians.

guardians. guardians. Utterly unbecoming. And which are the Utterly unbecoming. And which are the Utterly unbecoming. And which are the soft or drinking harmonies? soft or drinking harmonies? soft or drinking harmonies? The Ionian, he replied, and the Lydian. The Ionian, he replied, and the Lydian. The Ionian, he replied, and the Lydian. They are termed relaxed. They are termed relaxed. They are termed relaxed. Well, then are these of any military Well, then are these of any military Well, then are these of any military use? Quite the reverse, he replied. And use? Quite the reverse, he replied. And use? Quite the reverse, he replied. And if so, the Dorian and the Phrygian are if so, the Dorian and the Phrygian are if so, the Dorian and the Phrygian are the only ones which you have left. the only ones which you have left. the only ones which you have left. I answered, Of the harmonies I know I answered, Of the harmonies I know I answered, Of the harmonies I know nothing, but I want to have one warlike nothing, but I want to have one warlike nothing, but I want to have one warlike to sound the note or accent which a to sound the note or accent which a to sound the note or accent which a brave man utters in the hour of danger brave man utters in the hour of danger brave man utters in the hour of danger and stern resolve, or when his cause is and stern resolve, or when his cause is and stern resolve, or when his cause is failing and he is going to wounds or failing and he is going to wounds or failing and he is going to wounds or death or is overtaken by some evil. death or is overtaken by some evil. death or is overtaken by some evil. And at every such crisis meets the blows And at every such crisis meets the blows And at every such crisis meets the blows of fortune with firm step and a of fortune with firm step and a of fortune with firm step and a determination to endure. determination to endure. determination to endure. And another to be used by him in times And another to be used by him in times And another to be used by him in times of peace and freedom of action when of peace and freedom of action when of peace and freedom of action when there is no pressure of necessity and he there is no pressure of necessity and he there is no pressure of necessity and he is seeking to persuade God by prayer or is seeking to persuade God by prayer or is seeking to persuade God by prayer or man by instruction and admonition or on man by instruction and admonition or on man by instruction and admonition or on the other hand when he is expressing his the other hand when he is expressing his the other hand when he is expressing his willingness to yield to persuasion or willingness to yield to persuasion or willingness to yield to persuasion or entreaty or admonition. And which entreaty or admonition. And which entreaty or admonition. And which presents him when by prudent conduct he presents him when by prudent conduct he presents him when by prudent conduct he has attained his end not carried away by has attained his end not carried away by has attained his end not carried away by his success but acting moderately and his success but acting moderately and his success but acting moderately and wisely under the circumstances and wisely under the circumstances and wisely under the circumstances and acquiescing in the event. These two acquiescing in the event. These two acquiescing in the event. These two harmonies I ask you to leave the strain harmonies I ask you to leave the strain harmonies I ask you to leave the strain of necessity, the strain of courage and of necessity, the strain of courage and of necessity, the strain of courage and the strain of temperance. These I say the strain of temperance. These I say the strain of temperance. These I say leave.

leave. leave. And these, he replied, are the Dorian And these, he replied, are the Dorian And these, he replied, are the Dorian and Phrygian harmonies of which I was and Phrygian harmonies of which I was and Phrygian harmonies of which I was just now speaking. just now speaking. just now speaking. Then, I said, if these and these only Then, I said, if these and these only Then, I said, if these and these only are to be used in our songs and are to be used in our songs and are to be used in our songs and melodies, we shall not want multiplicity melodies, we shall not want multiplicity melodies, we shall not want multiplicity of notes or panharmonic scale. of notes or panharmonic scale. of notes or panharmonic scale. I suppose not. I suppose not. I suppose not. Then we shall not maintain the Then we shall not maintain the Then we shall not maintain the artificers of lyres with three corners artificers of lyres with three corners artificers of lyres with three corners and complex scales or the makers of any and complex scales or the makers of any and complex scales or the makers of any other many-stringed, curiously other many-stringed, curiously other many-stringed, curiously harmonized instruments. harmonized instruments. harmonized instruments. Certainly not. Certainly not. Certainly not. But what do you say to flute-makers and But what do you say to flute-makers and But what do you say to flute-makers and flute-players? Would you admit them into flute-players? Would you admit them into flute-players? Would you admit them into our state when they reflect that in this our state when they reflect that in this our state when they reflect that in this composite use of harmony the flute is composite use of harmony the flute is composite use of harmony the flute is worse than all the stringed instruments worse than all the stringed instruments worse than all the stringed instruments put together? Even the panharmonic music put together? Even the panharmonic music put together? Even the panharmonic music is only an imitation of the flute. is only an imitation of the flute. is only an imitation of the flute. Clearly not. There remain then only the Clearly not. There remain then only the Clearly not. There remain then only the lyre and the harp for use in the city lyre and the harp for use in the city lyre and the harp for use in the city and the shepherds may have a pipe in the and the shepherds may have a pipe in the and the shepherds may have a pipe in the country. country. country. That is surely the conclusion to be That is surely the conclusion to be That is surely the conclusion to be drawn from the argument.

drawn from the argument. drawn from the argument. The preferring of Apollo and his The preferring of Apollo and his The preferring of Apollo and his instruments is not at all strange, I instruments is not at all strange, I instruments is not at all strange, I said. Not at all, he replied. said. Not at all, he replied. said. Not at all, he replied. And so, by the dog of Egypt, we have And so, by the dog of Egypt, we have And so, by the dog of Egypt, we have been unconsciously purging the state, been unconsciously purging the state, been unconsciously purging the state, which not long ago we termed luxurious. which not long ago we termed luxurious. which not long ago we termed luxurious. And we have done wisely, he replied. And we have done wisely, he replied. And we have done wisely, he replied. Then, let us now finish the purgation, I Then, let us now finish the purgation, I Then, let us now finish the purgation, I said. Next in order to harmonies, said. Next in order to harmonies, said. Next in order to harmonies, rhythms will naturally follow, and they rhythms will naturally follow, and they rhythms will naturally follow, and they should be subject to the same rules. For should be subject to the same rules. For should be subject to the same rules. For we ought not to seek out complex systems we ought not to seek out complex systems we ought not to seek out complex systems of meter or meters of every kind, but of meter or meters of every kind, but of meter or meters of every kind, but rather to discover what rhythms are the rather to discover what rhythms are the rather to discover what rhythms are the expressions of a courageous and expressions of a courageous and expressions of a courageous and harmonious life. And when we have found harmonious life. And when we have found harmonious life. And when we have found them, we shall adapt the foot and the them, we shall adapt the foot and the them, we shall adapt the foot and the melody to words having a like spirit, melody to words having a like spirit, melody to words having a like spirit, not the words to the foot and the not the words to the foot and the not the words to the foot and the melody. melody. melody. To say what these rhythms are will be To say what these rhythms are will be To say what these rhythms are will be your duty. You must teach me then, as your duty. You must teach me then, as your duty. You must teach me then, as you have already taught me the you have already taught me the you have already taught me the harmonics. harmonics. harmonics. But indeed, he replied, I cannot tell But indeed, he replied, I cannot tell But indeed, he replied, I cannot tell you. I only know that there are some you. I only know that there are some you. I only know that there are some three principles of rhythm out of which three principles of rhythm out of which three principles of rhythm out of which metrical systems are framed, just as in metrical systems are framed, just as in metrical systems are framed, just as in sounds there are four notes.

sounds there are four notes. sounds there are four notes. That is, the four notes of the That is, the four notes of the That is, the four notes of the tetrachord, out of which all the tetrachord, out of which all the tetrachord, out of which all the harmonies are composed. harmonies are composed. harmonies are composed. That is an observation which I have That is an observation which I have That is an observation which I have made, but but of what sort of lives they made, but but of what sort of lives they made, but but of what sort of lives they are severally the imitations, I am are severally the imitations, I am are severally the imitations, I am unable to say. unable to say. unable to say. Then, I said, we must take Damon into Then, I said, we must take Damon into Then, I said, we must take Damon into our councils, and he will tell us what our councils, and he will tell us what our councils, and he will tell us what rhythms are expressive of meanness or rhythms are expressive of meanness or rhythms are expressive of meanness or insolence or fury or other unworthiness, insolence or fury or other unworthiness, insolence or fury or other unworthiness, and what are to be reserved for the and what are to be reserved for the and what are to be reserved for the expression of opposite feelings. expression of opposite feelings. expression of opposite feelings. And I think that I have an indistinct And I think that I have an indistinct And I think that I have an indistinct recollection of his mentioning a complex recollection of his mentioning a complex recollection of his mentioning a complex cretic rhythm. cretic rhythm. cretic rhythm. Also a dactylic or heroic, and he Also a dactylic or heroic, and he Also a dactylic or heroic, and he arranged them in some manner which I do arranged them in some manner which I do arranged them in some manner which I do not quite understand, making the rhythms not quite understand, making the rhythms not quite understand, making the rhythms equal in the rise and the fall of the equal in the rise and the fall of the equal in the rise and the fall of the foot, long and short alternating. And foot, long and short alternating. And foot, long and short alternating. And unless I am mistaken, he spoke of an unless I am mistaken, he spoke of an unless I am mistaken, he spoke of an iambic as well as a trochaic rhythm, and iambic as well as a trochaic rhythm, and iambic as well as a trochaic rhythm, and assigned to them short and long assigned to them short and long assigned to them short and long quantities.

quantities. quantities. Also, in some cases, he appeared to Also, in some cases, he appeared to Also, in some cases, he appeared to praise or censure the movement of the praise or censure the movement of the praise or censure the movement of the foot quite as much as the rhythm, or foot quite as much as the rhythm, or foot quite as much as the rhythm, or perhaps a combination of the two. perhaps a combination of the two. perhaps a combination of the two. For I am not certain what he means. For I am not certain what he means. For I am not certain what he means. These matters, however, as I was saying, These matters, however, as I was saying, These matters, however, as I was saying, had better be deferred to Damon himself, had better be deferred to Damon himself, had better be deferred to Damon himself, for the analysis of the subject would be for the analysis of the subject would be for the analysis of the subject would be difficult, you know. difficult, you know. difficult, you know. Rather so, I should say. Rather so, I should say. Rather so, I should say. But, there is no difficulty in seeing But, there is no difficulty in seeing But, there is no difficulty in seeing that grace, or the absence of grace, is that grace, or the absence of grace, is that grace, or the absence of grace, is an effect of good or bad rhythm. an effect of good or bad rhythm. an effect of good or bad rhythm. Not at all. And also, that good and bad Not at all. And also, that good and bad Not at all. And also, that good and bad rhythm naturally assimilate to a good rhythm naturally assimilate to a good rhythm naturally assimilate to a good and bad style, and that harmony and and bad style, and that harmony and and bad style, and that harmony and discord in like manner follow style. For discord in like manner follow style. For discord in like manner follow style. For our principle is that rhythm and harmony our principle is that rhythm and harmony our principle is that rhythm and harmony are regulated by the words, and not the are regulated by the words, and not the are regulated by the words, and not the words by them. words by them. words by them. Just so, he said. They should follow the Just so, he said. They should follow the Just so, he said. They should follow the words. words. words. And will not the words and the character And will not the words and the character And will not the words and the character of the style depend on the temper of the of the style depend on the temper of the of the style depend on the temper of the soul? Yes. And everything else on the soul? Yes. And everything else on the soul? Yes. And everything else on the style?

style? style? Yes. Then, beauty of style and harmony Yes. Then, beauty of style and harmony Yes. Then, beauty of style and harmony and grace and good rhythm depend on and grace and good rhythm depend on and grace and good rhythm depend on simplicity. I mean, the true simplicity simplicity. I mean, the true simplicity simplicity. I mean, the true simplicity of a rightly and nobly ordered mind and of a rightly and nobly ordered mind and of a rightly and nobly ordered mind and character, not that other simplicity, character, not that other simplicity, character, not that other simplicity, which is only a euphemism for folly. which is only a euphemism for folly. which is only a euphemism for folly. Very true, he replied. Very true, he replied. Very true, he replied. And if our youth are to do their work in And if our youth are to do their work in And if our youth are to do their work in life, must they not make these graces life, must they not make these graces life, must they not make these graces and harmonies their perpetual aim? They and harmonies their perpetual aim? They and harmonies their perpetual aim? They must. And surely, the art of the painter must. And surely, the art of the painter must. And surely, the art of the painter and every other creative and and every other creative and and every other creative and constructive art are full of them. constructive art are full of them. constructive art are full of them. Weaving, embroidery, architecture, and Weaving, embroidery, architecture, and Weaving, embroidery, architecture, and every kind of manufacture. Also, nature, every kind of manufacture. Also, nature, every kind of manufacture. Also, nature, animal and vegetable. In all of them, animal and vegetable. In all of them, animal and vegetable. In all of them, there is a grace or the absence of there is a grace or the absence of there is a grace or the absence of grace, and ugliness and discord and grace, and ugliness and discord and grace, and ugliness and discord and inharmonious motion are nearly allied to inharmonious motion are nearly allied to inharmonious motion are nearly allied to ill words and ill nature, as grace and ill words and ill nature, as grace and ill words and ill nature, as grace and harmony are the twin sisters of goodness harmony are the twin sisters of goodness harmony are the twin sisters of goodness and virtue and bear their likeness. and virtue and bear their likeness. and virtue and bear their likeness. "That is quite true," he said.

"That is quite true," he said. "That is quite true," he said. "But shall our superintendents go no "But shall our superintendents go no "But shall our superintendents go no further, and are the poets only to be further, and are the poets only to be further, and are the poets only to be required by us to express the image of required by us to express the image of required by us to express the image of the good in their works on pain if they the good in their works on pain if they the good in their works on pain if they do anything else of expulsion from our do anything else of expulsion from our do anything else of expulsion from our state? Or is the same control to be state? Or is the same control to be state? Or is the same control to be extended to the other artists, and are extended to the other artists, and are extended to the other artists, and are they also to be prohibited from they also to be prohibited from they also to be prohibited from exhibiting the opposite forms of vice exhibiting the opposite forms of vice exhibiting the opposite forms of vice and intemperance and meanness and and intemperance and meanness and and intemperance and meanness and indecency in sculpture and building and indecency in sculpture and building and indecency in sculpture and building and the other creative arts? And is he who the other creative arts? And is he who the other creative arts? And is he who cannot conform to this rule of ours to cannot conform to this rule of ours to cannot conform to this rule of ours to be prevented from practicing his art in be prevented from practicing his art in be prevented from practicing his art in our state, lest the taste of our our state, lest the taste of our our state, lest the taste of our citizens be corrupted by him? citizens be corrupted by him? citizens be corrupted by him? We would not have our guardians grow up We would not have our guardians grow up We would not have our guardians grow up amid images of moral deformity, as in amid images of moral deformity, as in amid images of moral deformity, as in some noxious pasture, and there browse some noxious pasture, and there browse some noxious pasture, and there browse and feed upon many a baneful herb and and feed upon many a baneful herb and and feed upon many a baneful herb and flower day by day, little by little, flower day by day, little by little, flower day by day, little by little, until they silently gather a festering until they silently gather a festering until they silently gather a festering mass of corruption in their own soul. mass of corruption in their own soul. mass of corruption in their own soul. Let our artists rather be those who are Let our artists rather be those who are Let our artists rather be those who are gifted to discern the true nature of the gifted to discern the true nature of the gifted to discern the true nature of the beautiful and graceful. Then will our beautiful and graceful. Then will our beautiful and graceful. Then will our youth dwell in a land of wealth and amid youth dwell in a land of wealth and amid youth dwell in a land of wealth and amid fair sights and sounds and receive the fair sights and sounds and receive the fair sights and sounds and receive the good in everything. And beauty, the good in everything. And beauty, the good in everything. And beauty, the affluence of fair works, shall flow into affluence of fair works, shall flow into affluence of fair works, shall flow into the eye and ear like a health-giving the eye and ear like a health-giving the eye and ear like a health-giving breeze from a purer region, and breeze from a purer region, and breeze from a purer region, and insensibly draw the soul from earliest insensibly draw the soul from earliest insensibly draw the soul from earliest years into likeness and sympathy with years into likeness and sympathy with years into likeness and sympathy with the beauty of reason." "There can be no the beauty of reason." "There can be no the beauty of reason." "There can be no nobler training than that," he replied.

nobler training than that," he replied. nobler training than that," he replied. "And therefore," I said, "Glaucon, "And therefore," I said, "Glaucon, "And therefore," I said, "Glaucon, musical training is a more potent musical training is a more potent musical training is a more potent instrument than any other because rhythm instrument than any other because rhythm instrument than any other because rhythm and harmony find their way into the and harmony find their way into the and harmony find their way into the inward places of the soul, on which they inward places of the soul, on which they inward places of the soul, on which they mightily fasten, imparting grace and mightily fasten, imparting grace and mightily fasten, imparting grace and making the soul of him who is rightly making the soul of him who is rightly making the soul of him who is rightly educated graceful, or of him who is educated graceful, or of him who is educated graceful, or of him who is ill-educated ungraceful. And also ill-educated ungraceful. And also ill-educated ungraceful. And also because he who has received this true because he who has received this true because he who has received this true education of the inner being will most education of the inner being will most education of the inner being will most shrewdly perceive omissions or faults in shrewdly perceive omissions or faults in shrewdly perceive omissions or faults in art and nature. And with a true taste, art and nature. And with a true taste, art and nature. And with a true taste, while he praises and rejoices over and while he praises and rejoices over and while he praises and rejoices over and receives into his soul the good and receives into his soul the good and receives into his soul the good and becomes noble and good. He will justly becomes noble and good. He will justly becomes noble and good. He will justly blame and hate the bad now in the days blame and hate the bad now in the days blame and hate the bad now in the days of his youth, even before he is able to of his youth, even before he is able to of his youth, even before he is able to know the reason why. And when reason know the reason why. And when reason know the reason why. And when reason comes, he will recognize and salute the comes, he will recognize and salute the comes, he will recognize and salute the friend with whom his education has made friend with whom his education has made friend with whom his education has made him long familiar. "Yes," he said, "I him long familiar. "Yes," he said, "I him long familiar. "Yes," he said, "I quite agree with you in thinking that quite agree with you in thinking that quite agree with you in thinking that our youth should be trained in music and our youth should be trained in music and our youth should be trained in music and on the grounds which you mention."

on the grounds which you mention." on the grounds which you mention." Just as in learning to read, I said, "We Just as in learning to read, I said, "We Just as in learning to read, I said, "We were satisfied when we knew the letters were satisfied when we knew the letters were satisfied when we knew the letters of the alphabet, which are very few, in of the alphabet, which are very few, in of the alphabet, which are very few, in all their recurring sizes and all their recurring sizes and all their recurring sizes and combinations, not slighting them as combinations, not slighting them as combinations, not slighting them as unimportant whether they occupy a space unimportant whether they occupy a space unimportant whether they occupy a space large or small, but everywhere eager to large or small, but everywhere eager to large or small, but everywhere eager to make them out and not thinking ourselves make them out and not thinking ourselves make them out and not thinking ourselves perfect in the art of reading until we perfect in the art of reading until we perfect in the art of reading until we recognize them wherever they are found." recognize them wherever they are found." recognize them wherever they are found." "True." "True." "True." Or as we recognize the reflection of Or as we recognize the reflection of Or as we recognize the reflection of letters in the water or in the mirror letters in the water or in the mirror letters in the water or in the mirror only when we know the letters only when we know the letters only when we know the letters themselves, the same art and study themselves, the same art and study themselves, the same art and study giving us the knowledge of both. giving us the knowledge of both. giving us the knowledge of both. "Exactly." "Exactly." "Exactly." Even so, as I maintain, neither we nor Even so, as I maintain, neither we nor Even so, as I maintain, neither we nor our guardians whom we have to educate our guardians whom we have to educate our guardians whom we have to educate can ever become musical until we and can ever become musical until we and can ever become musical until we and they know the essential forms of they know the essential forms of they know the essential forms of temperance, courage, liberality, temperance, courage, liberality, temperance, courage, liberality, magnificence, and their kindred, as well magnificence, and their kindred, as well magnificence, and their kindred, as well as the contrary forms in all their as the contrary forms in all their as the contrary forms in all their combinations, and can recognize them and combinations, and can recognize them and combinations, and can recognize them and their images wherever they are found, their images wherever they are found, their images wherever they are found, not slighting them either in small not slighting them either in small not slighting them either in small things or great, but believing them all things or great, but believing them all things or great, but believing them all to be within the sphere of what art and to be within the sphere of what art and to be within the sphere of what art and study. Most assuredly.

study. Most assuredly. study. Most assuredly. And when a beautiful soul harmonizes And when a beautiful soul harmonizes And when a beautiful soul harmonizes with a beautiful form, and the two are with a beautiful form, and the two are with a beautiful form, and the two are cast in one mold, that will be the cast in one mold, that will be the cast in one mold, that will be the fairest of sights to him who has an eye fairest of sights to him who has an eye fairest of sights to him who has an eye to see it. to see it. to see it. The fairest indeed. And the fairest is The fairest indeed. And the fairest is The fairest indeed. And the fairest is also the loveliest? That may be assumed. also the loveliest? That may be assumed. also the loveliest? That may be assumed. And the man who has the spirit of And the man who has the spirit of And the man who has the spirit of harmony will be most in love with the harmony will be most in love with the harmony will be most in love with the loveliest. But he will not love him who loveliest. But he will not love him who loveliest. But he will not love him who is of an inharmonious soul. That is is of an inharmonious soul. That is is of an inharmonious soul. That is true, he replied, if the deficiency be true, he replied, if the deficiency be true, he replied, if the deficiency be in his soul. But if there be any merely in his soul. But if there be any merely in his soul. But if there be any merely bodily defect in another, he will be bodily defect in another, he will be bodily defect in another, he will be patient of it and will love all the patient of it and will love all the patient of it and will love all the same. same. same. I perceive, I said, that you have or I perceive, I said, that you have or I perceive, I said, that you have or have had experiences of this sort, and I have had experiences of this sort, and I have had experiences of this sort, and I agree. But let me ask you another agree. But let me ask you another agree. But let me ask you another question. Has excess of pleasure any question. Has excess of pleasure any question. Has excess of pleasure any affinity to temperance? How can that be? affinity to temperance? How can that be? affinity to temperance? How can that be? He replied. Pleasure deprives a man of He replied. Pleasure deprives a man of He replied. Pleasure deprives a man of the use of his faculties quite as much the use of his faculties quite as much the use of his faculties quite as much as pain. as pain. as pain. Or any affinity to virtue in general?

Or any affinity to virtue in general? Or any affinity to virtue in general? None whatever. None whatever. None whatever. Any affinity to wantonness and Any affinity to wantonness and Any affinity to wantonness and intemperance? intemperance? intemperance? Yes, the greatest. And is there any Yes, the greatest. And is there any Yes, the greatest. And is there any greater or keener a pleasure than that greater or keener a pleasure than that greater or keener a pleasure than that of sensual love? of sensual love? of sensual love? No, nor a madder. No, nor a madder. No, nor a madder. Whereas true love is a love of beauty Whereas true love is a love of beauty Whereas true love is a love of beauty and order, temperate and temperate and and order, temperate and temperate and and order, temperate and temperate and harmonious. harmonious. harmonious. Quite true, he said. Quite true, he said. Quite true, he said. Then no intemperance or madness should Then no intemperance or madness should Then no intemperance or madness should be allowed to approach true love. be allowed to approach true love. be allowed to approach true love. Certainly not. Certainly not. Certainly not. Then mad or intemperate pleasure must Then mad or intemperate pleasure must Then mad or intemperate pleasure must never be allowed to come near the lover never be allowed to come near the lover never be allowed to come near the lover and his beloved. Neither of them can and his beloved. Neither of them can and his beloved. Neither of them can have any part in it if their love is of have any part in it if their love is of have any part in it if their love is of the right sort. the right sort. the right sort. No, indeed, Socrates. It must never come No, indeed, Socrates. It must never come No, indeed, Socrates. It must never come near them. near them. near them. Then I suppose that in the city which we Then I suppose that in the city which we Then I suppose that in the city which we are founding, you could make a law to are founding, you could make a law to are founding, you could make a law to the effect that a friend should use no the effect that a friend should use no the effect that a friend should use no other familiarity to his love than a other familiarity to his love than a other familiarity to his love than a father would use to his son, and then father would use to his son, and then father would use to his son, and then only for a noble purpose, and he must only for a noble purpose, and he must only for a noble purpose, and he must first have the other's consent. And this first have the other's consent. And this first have the other's consent. And this rule is to limit him in all his rule is to limit him in all his rule is to limit him in all his intercourse, and he is never to be seen intercourse, and he is never to be seen intercourse, and he is never to be seen going further, or if he exceeds, he is going further, or if he exceeds, he is going further, or if he exceeds, he is to be deemed guilty of coarseness and to be deemed guilty of coarseness and to be deemed guilty of coarseness and bad taste. I quite agree, he said.

bad taste. I quite agree, he said. bad taste. I quite agree, he said. This much of music which makes a fair This much of music which makes a fair This much of music which makes a fair ending, for what should be the end of ending, for what should be the end of ending, for what should be the end of music if not the love of beauty? music if not the love of beauty? music if not the love of beauty? I agree, he said. I agree, he said. I agree, he said. After music comes gymnastic, in which After music comes gymnastic, in which After music comes gymnastic, in which our youth are next to be trained. our youth are next to be trained. our youth are next to be trained. Certainly. Certainly. Certainly. Gymnastic, as well as music, should Gymnastic, as well as music, should Gymnastic, as well as music, should begin in early years, but training in it begin in early years, but training in it begin in early years, but training in it should be careful and should continue should be careful and should continue should be careful and should continue through life. through life. through life. Now, my belief is, and this is a matter Now, my belief is, and this is a matter Now, my belief is, and this is a matter upon which I should like to have your upon which I should like to have your upon which I should like to have your opinion in confirmation of my own, but opinion in confirmation of my own, but opinion in confirmation of my own, but my own belief is not that the good body, my own belief is not that the good body, my own belief is not that the good body, by any bodily excellence, improves the by any bodily excellence, improves the by any bodily excellence, improves the soul, but on the contrary, that the good soul, but on the contrary, that the good soul, but on the contrary, that the good soul, by her own excellence, improves soul, by her own excellence, improves soul, by her own excellence, improves the body as far as this may be possible. the body as far as this may be possible. the body as far as this may be possible. What do you say? What do you say? What do you say? Yes, I agree. Yes, I agree. Yes, I agree. Then to the mind, when adequately Then to the mind, when adequately Then to the mind, when adequately trained, we shall be right in handing trained, we shall be right in handing trained, we shall be right in handing over the more particular care of the over the more particular care of the over the more particular care of the body, and in order to avoid prolixity, body, and in order to avoid prolixity, body, and in order to avoid prolixity, we will now only give the general we will now only give the general we will now only give the general outlines of the subject. Very good.

outlines of the subject. Very good. outlines of the subject. Very good. That they must abstain from intoxication That they must abstain from intoxication That they must abstain from intoxication has been already remarked by us, for of has been already remarked by us, for of has been already remarked by us, for of all persons, a guardian should be the all persons, a guardian should be the all persons, a guardian should be the last to get drunk and not know where in last to get drunk and not know where in last to get drunk and not know where in the world he is. the world he is. the world he is. Yes, he said, that a guardian should Yes, he said, that a guardian should Yes, he said, that a guardian should require another guardian to take care of require another guardian to take care of require another guardian to take care of him is ridiculous indeed. him is ridiculous indeed. him is ridiculous indeed. But next, what shall we say of their But next, what shall we say of their But next, what shall we say of their food? For the men are in training for food? For the men are in training for food? For the men are in training for the great contest of all, are they not? the great contest of all, are they not? the great contest of all, are they not? Yes, he said. And will the habit of body Yes, he said. And will the habit of body Yes, he said. And will the habit of body of our ordinary athletes be suited to of our ordinary athletes be suited to of our ordinary athletes be suited to them? them? them? Why not? I am afraid, I said, that a Why not? I am afraid, I said, that a Why not? I am afraid, I said, that a habit of body such as they have is but a habit of body such as they have is but a habit of body such as they have is but a sleepy sort of thing and rather perilous sleepy sort of thing and rather perilous sleepy sort of thing and rather perilous to health. to health. to health. Do you not observe that these athletes Do you not observe that these athletes Do you not observe that these athletes sleep away their lives and are liable to sleep away their lives and are liable to sleep away their lives and are liable to most dangerous illnesses if they depart most dangerous illnesses if they depart most dangerous illnesses if they depart in ever so slight a degree from their in ever so slight a degree from their in ever so slight a degree from their customary regimen? customary regimen? customary regimen? Yes, I do. Yes, I do. Yes, I do. Then, I said, a finer sort of training Then, I said, a finer sort of training Then, I said, a finer sort of training will be required for our warrior will be required for our warrior will be required for our warrior athletes, who are to be like wakeful athletes, who are to be like wakeful athletes, who are to be like wakeful dogs and to see and hear with the utmost dogs and to see and hear with the utmost dogs and to see and hear with the utmost keenness amid the many changes of water keenness amid the many changes of water keenness amid the many changes of water and also of food, of summer heat and and also of food, of summer heat and and also of food, of summer heat and winter cold, which they will have to winter cold, which they will have to winter cold, which they will have to endure when on a campaign. They must be endure when on a campaign. They must be endure when on a campaign. They must be liable to break down in health. That is liable to break down in health. That is liable to break down in health. That is my view.

my view. my view. The really excellent gymnastic is twin The really excellent gymnastic is twin The really excellent gymnastic is twin sister of that simple music which we sister of that simple music which we sister of that simple music which we were just now describing. were just now describing. were just now describing. How so? How so? How so? Why, I conceive that there is a Why, I conceive that there is a Why, I conceive that there is a gymnastic which, like our music, is gymnastic which, like our music, is gymnastic which, like our music, is simple and good and especially the simple and good and especially the simple and good and especially the military gymnastic. military gymnastic. military gymnastic. What do you mean? What do you mean? What do you mean? My meaning may be learned from Homer. My meaning may be learned from Homer. My meaning may be learned from Homer. He, you know, feeds his heroes at their He, you know, feeds his heroes at their He, you know, feeds his heroes at their feasts when they are campaigning on feasts when they are campaigning on feasts when they are campaigning on soldiers' fare. They have no fish, soldiers' fare. They have no fish, soldiers' fare. They have no fish, although they are on the shores of the although they are on the shores of the although they are on the shores of the Hellespont, and they are not allowed Hellespont, and they are not allowed Hellespont, and they are not allowed boiled meats, but only roast, which is boiled meats, but only roast, which is boiled meats, but only roast, which is the food most convenient for soldiers, the food most convenient for soldiers, the food most convenient for soldiers, requiring only that they should light a requiring only that they should light a requiring only that they should light a fire and not involving the trouble of fire and not involving the trouble of fire and not involving the trouble of caring about pots and pans. True. caring about pots and pans. True. caring about pots and pans. True. And I can hardly be mistaken in saying And I can hardly be mistaken in saying And I can hardly be mistaken in saying that sweet sauces are nowhere mentioned that sweet sauces are nowhere mentioned that sweet sauces are nowhere mentioned in the Homer. In proscribing them, in the Homer. In proscribing them, in the Homer. In proscribing them, however, he is not singular. All however, he is not singular. All however, he is not singular. All professional athletes are well aware professional athletes are well aware professional athletes are well aware that a man who is to be in good that a man who is to be in good that a man who is to be in good condition should take nothing of the condition should take nothing of the condition should take nothing of the kind. Yes, he said, and knowing this kind. Yes, he said, and knowing this kind. Yes, he said, and knowing this they are quite right in not taking them.

they are quite right in not taking them. they are quite right in not taking them. Then you would not approve of the Then you would not approve of the Then you would not approve of the Syracusan dinners and the refinements of Syracusan dinners and the refinements of Syracusan dinners and the refinements of Sicilian cookery. Sicilian cookery. Sicilian cookery. I think not. I think not. I think not. No, if a man is to be in condition, No, if a man is to be in condition, No, if a man is to be in condition, would you allow him to have a Corinthian would you allow him to have a Corinthian would you allow him to have a Corinthian girl as his fair friend? Certainly not. girl as his fair friend? Certainly not. girl as his fair friend? Certainly not. Neither would you approve of the Neither would you approve of the Neither would you approve of the delicacies, as they are thought, of delicacies, as they are thought, of delicacies, as they are thought, of Athenian confectionary. Athenian confectionary. Athenian confectionary. Certainly not. All such feeding and Certainly not. All such feeding and Certainly not. All such feeding and living may be rightly compared by us to living may be rightly compared by us to living may be rightly compared by us to melody and song composed in the melody and song composed in the melody and song composed in the panharmonic style and in all the panharmonic style and in all the panharmonic style and in all the rhythms. Exactly. rhythms. Exactly. rhythms. Exactly. There complexity engendered license and There complexity engendered license and There complexity engendered license and here disease. Whereas simplicity in here disease. Whereas simplicity in here disease. Whereas simplicity in music was the parent of temperance in music was the parent of temperance in music was the parent of temperance in the soul and simplicity in gymnastic of the soul and simplicity in gymnastic of the soul and simplicity in gymnastic of health in the body. Most true, he said. health in the body. Most true, he said. health in the body. Most true, he said. But when intemperance and diseases But when intemperance and diseases But when intemperance and diseases multiply in a state, halls of justice multiply in a state, halls of justice multiply in a state, halls of justice and medicine are always being opened and and medicine are always being opened and and medicine are always being opened and the arts of the doctor and the lawyer the arts of the doctor and the lawyer the arts of the doctor and the lawyer give themselves airs, finding how keen give themselves airs, finding how keen give themselves airs, finding how keen is the interest which not only the is the interest which not only the is the interest which not only the slaves but the free men of the city take slaves but the free men of the city take slaves but the free men of the city take about them. Of course. And yet, what about them. Of course. And yet, what about them. Of course. And yet, what greater proof can there be of a bad and greater proof can there be of a bad and greater proof can there be of a bad and disgraceful state of education than disgraceful state of education than disgraceful state of education than this, that not only artisans and the this, that not only artisans and the this, that not only artisans and the meaner sort of people need the skill of meaner sort of people need the skill of meaner sort of people need the skill of first-rate physicians and judges, but first-rate physicians and judges, but first-rate physicians and judges, but also those who had professed to have had also those who had professed to have had also those who had professed to have had a liberal education. Is it not a liberal education. Is it not a liberal education. Is it not disgraceful and a great sign of want of disgraceful and a great sign of want of disgraceful and a great sign of want of good breeding that a man should have to

good breeding that a man should have to good breeding that a man should have to go abroad for his law and physic because go abroad for his law and physic because go abroad for his law and physic because he has none of his own at home and must he has none of his own at home and must he has none of his own at home and must therefore surrender himself into the therefore surrender himself into the therefore surrender himself into the hands of other men, whom he makes lords hands of other men, whom he makes lords hands of other men, whom he makes lords and judges over him. and judges over him. and judges over him. Of all things, he said, the most Of all things, he said, the most Of all things, he said, the most disgraceful. disgraceful. disgraceful. Would you say most, I replied, when you Would you say most, I replied, when you Would you say most, I replied, when you consider that there is a further stage consider that there is a further stage consider that there is a further stage of the evil in which a man is not only a of the evil in which a man is not only a of the evil in which a man is not only a lifelong litigant, passing all his days lifelong litigant, passing all his days lifelong litigant, passing all his days in the courts either as plaintiff or in the courts either as plaintiff or in the courts either as plaintiff or defendant, but is actually led by his defendant, but is actually led by his defendant, but is actually led by his bad taste to pride himself on his bad taste to pride himself on his bad taste to pride himself on his litigiousness? litigiousness? litigiousness? He imagines that he is a master of He imagines that he is a master of He imagines that he is a master of dishonesty, able to take every crooked dishonesty, able to take every crooked dishonesty, able to take every crooked turn and wriggle into and out of every turn and wriggle into and out of every turn and wriggle into and out of every hole, bending like a withy and getting hole, bending like a withy and getting hole, bending like a withy and getting out of the way of justice. And all for out of the way of justice. And all for out of the way of justice. And all for what? what? what? In order to gain small points not worth In order to gain small points not worth In order to gain small points not worth mentioning, he not knowing that so to mentioning, he not knowing that so to mentioning, he not knowing that so to order his life as to be able to do order his life as to be able to do order his life as to be able to do without a napping judge is a far higher without a napping judge is a far higher without a napping judge is a far higher and nobler sort of thing. Is not that and nobler sort of thing. Is not that and nobler sort of thing. Is not that still more disgraceful?

still more disgraceful? still more disgraceful? Yes, he said, that is still more Yes, he said, that is still more Yes, he said, that is still more disgraceful. disgraceful. disgraceful. Well, I said, and to require the help of Well, I said, and to require the help of Well, I said, and to require the help of medicine, not when a wound has to be medicine, not when a wound has to be medicine, not when a wound has to be cured or on occasion of an epidemic, but cured or on occasion of an epidemic, but cured or on occasion of an epidemic, but just because by indolence and a habit of just because by indolence and a habit of just because by indolence and a habit of life such as we have been describing, life such as we have been describing, life such as we have been describing, men fill themselves with waters and men fill themselves with waters and men fill themselves with waters and winds as if their bodies were of marsh, winds as if their bodies were of marsh, winds as if their bodies were of marsh, compelling the ingenious sons of compelling the ingenious sons of compelling the ingenious sons of Aesculapius to find more names for Aesculapius to find more names for Aesculapius to find more names for diseases, such as flatulence and diseases, such as flatulence and diseases, such as flatulence and catarrh. catarrh. catarrh. Is not this too a disgrace? Is not this too a disgrace? Is not this too a disgrace? Yes, he said, they do certainly give Yes, he said, they do certainly give Yes, he said, they do certainly give very strange and new-fangled names to very strange and new-fangled names to very strange and new-fangled names to diseases. diseases. diseases. Yes, I said, and I do not believe that Yes, I said, and I do not believe that Yes, I said, and I do not believe that there were any such diseases in the days there were any such diseases in the days there were any such diseases in the days of Aesculapius. And this I infer from of Aesculapius. And this I infer from of Aesculapius. And this I infer from the circumstance that the hero the circumstance that the hero the circumstance that the hero Euripylus, after he has been wounded in Euripylus, after he has been wounded in Euripylus, after he has been wounded in Homer, drinks a posset of Pramnian wine Homer, drinks a posset of Pramnian wine Homer, drinks a posset of Pramnian wine well besprinkled with barley meal and well besprinkled with barley meal and well besprinkled with barley meal and grated cheese, which are certainly grated cheese, which are certainly grated cheese, which are certainly inflammatory. And yet, the sons of inflammatory. And yet, the sons of inflammatory. And yet, the sons of Asclepius, who were at the Trojan war, Asclepius, who were at the Trojan war, Asclepius, who were at the Trojan war, do not blame the damsel who gives him do not blame the damsel who gives him do not blame the damsel who gives him the drink, or rebuke Patroclus, who is the drink, or rebuke Patroclus, who is the drink, or rebuke Patroclus, who is treating his case.

treating his case. treating his case. "Well," he said, "that was surely an "Well," he said, "that was surely an "Well," he said, "that was surely an extraordinary drink to be given to a extraordinary drink to be given to a extraordinary drink to be given to a person in his condition." "Not so person in his condition." "Not so person in his condition." "Not so extraordinary," I replied, "if you bear extraordinary," I replied, "if you bear extraordinary," I replied, "if you bear in mind that in former days, as is in mind that in former days, as is in mind that in former days, as is commonly said, before the time of commonly said, before the time of commonly said, before the time of Herodicus, the guild of Asclepius did Herodicus, the guild of Asclepius did Herodicus, the guild of Asclepius did not practice our present system of not practice our present system of not practice our present system of medicine, which may be said to educate medicine, which may be said to educate medicine, which may be said to educate diseases. diseases. diseases. But Herodicus, being a trainer and But Herodicus, being a trainer and But Herodicus, being a trainer and himself of a sickly constitution, by a himself of a sickly constitution, by a himself of a sickly constitution, by a combination of training and doctoring, combination of training and doctoring, combination of training and doctoring, found out a way of torturing first and found out a way of torturing first and found out a way of torturing first and chiefly himself, and secondly the rest chiefly himself, and secondly the rest chiefly himself, and secondly the rest of the world." of the world." of the world." "How was that?" he said. "How was that?" he said. "How was that?" he said. "By the intervention of lingering death. "By the intervention of lingering death. "By the intervention of lingering death. For he had a mortal disease, which he For he had a mortal disease, which he For he had a mortal disease, which he perpetually tended, and as recovery was perpetually tended, and as recovery was perpetually tended, and as recovery was out of the question, he passed his out of the question, he passed his out of the question, he passed his entire life as a valetudinarian. entire life as a valetudinarian. entire life as a valetudinarian. He could do nothing but attend upon He could do nothing but attend upon He could do nothing but attend upon himself, and he was in constant torment himself, and he was in constant torment himself, and he was in constant torment whenever he departed in anything from whenever he departed in anything from whenever he departed in anything from his usual regimen. And so, dying hard by his usual regimen. And so, dying hard by his usual regimen. And so, dying hard by the help of science, he struggled on to the help of science, he struggled on to the help of science, he struggled on to old age."

old age." old age." "A rare reward for his skill." "Yes," I "A rare reward for his skill." "Yes," I "A rare reward for his skill." "Yes," I said, "a reward which a man might fairly said, "a reward which a man might fairly said, "a reward which a man might fairly expect who never understood that if expect who never understood that if expect who never understood that if Asclepius did not instruct his Asclepius did not instruct his Asclepius did not instruct his descendants in valetudinarian hearts, descendants in valetudinarian hearts, descendants in valetudinarian hearts, the omission arose not from ignorance or the omission arose not from ignorance or the omission arose not from ignorance or inexperience of such a branch of inexperience of such a branch of inexperience of such a branch of medicine, but because he knew that in medicine, but because he knew that in medicine, but because he knew that in all well-ordered states, every all well-ordered states, every all well-ordered states, every individual has an occupation to which he individual has an occupation to which he individual has an occupation to which he must attend, and has therefore no must attend, and has therefore no must attend, and has therefore no leisure to spend in continually being leisure to spend in continually being leisure to spend in continually being ill. ill. ill. This we remark in the case of the This we remark in the case of the This we remark in the case of the artisan, but ludicrously enough, do not artisan, but ludicrously enough, do not artisan, but ludicrously enough, do not apply the same rule to people of the apply the same rule to people of the apply the same rule to people of the richer sort. richer sort. richer sort. "How do you mean?" he said. "How do you mean?" he said. "How do you mean?" he said. "I mean this. "I mean this. "I mean this. When a carpenter is ill, he asks the When a carpenter is ill, he asks the When a carpenter is ill, he asks the physician for a rough and ready cure, an physician for a rough and ready cure, an physician for a rough and ready cure, an emetic or purge or a cautery or the emetic or purge or a cautery or the emetic or purge or a cautery or the knife. These are his remedies. And if knife. These are his remedies. And if knife. These are his remedies. And if someone prescribes for him a course of someone prescribes for him a course of someone prescribes for him a course of dietetics and tells him that he must dietetics and tells him that he must dietetics and tells him that he must swathe and swaddle his head and all that swathe and swaddle his head and all that swathe and swaddle his head and all that sort of thing, he replies at once that sort of thing, he replies at once that sort of thing, he replies at once that he has no time to be ill and that he he has no time to be ill and that he he has no time to be ill and that he sees no good in a life which is spent in sees no good in a life which is spent in sees no good in a life which is spent in nursing his disease to the neglect of nursing his disease to the neglect of nursing his disease to the neglect of his customary employment. And therefore, his customary employment. And therefore, his customary employment. And therefore, bidding goodbye to this sort of bidding goodbye to this sort of bidding goodbye to this sort of physician, he resumes his ordinary physician, he resumes his ordinary physician, he resumes his ordinary habits and either gets well and lives habits and either gets well and lives habits and either gets well and lives and does his business or if his and does his business or if his and does his business or if his constitution fails, he dies and has no constitution fails, he dies and has no constitution fails, he dies and has no more trouble."

more trouble." more trouble." "Yes," he said, "and a man in his "Yes," he said, "and a man in his "Yes," he said, "and a man in his condition of life ought to use the art condition of life ought to use the art condition of life ought to use the art of medicine thus far only." of medicine thus far only." of medicine thus far only." "Has he not," I said, "an occupation? "Has he not," I said, "an occupation? "Has he not," I said, "an occupation? And what profit would there be in his And what profit would there be in his And what profit would there be in his life if he were deprived of his life if he were deprived of his life if he were deprived of his occupation?" "Quite true," he said. occupation?" "Quite true," he said. occupation?" "Quite true," he said. "But with a rich man, this is otherwise. "But with a rich man, this is otherwise. "But with a rich man, this is otherwise. Of him, we do not say that he has any Of him, we do not say that he has any Of him, we do not say that he has any specially appointed work which he must specially appointed work which he must specially appointed work which he must perform if he would live. He is perform if he would live. He is perform if he would live. He is generally supposed to have nothing to generally supposed to have nothing to generally supposed to have nothing to do." do." do." "Then you have heard of the saying of "Then you have heard of the saying of "Then you have heard of the saying of Phocylides that as soon as a man has a Phocylides that as soon as a man has a Phocylides that as soon as a man has a livelihood, he should practice virtue?" livelihood, he should practice virtue?" livelihood, he should practice virtue?" "Nay," he said, "I think that he had "Nay," he said, "I think that he had "Nay," he said, "I think that he had better begin somewhat sooner." better begin somewhat sooner." better begin somewhat sooner." "Let us not have a dispute with him "Let us not have a dispute with him "Let us not have a dispute with him about this," I said, "but rather ask about this," I said, "but rather ask about this," I said, "but rather ask ourselves, is the practice of virtue ourselves, is the practice of virtue ourselves, is the practice of virtue obligatory on the rich man or can he obligatory on the rich man or can he obligatory on the rich man or can he live without it? And if obligatory on live without it? And if obligatory on live without it? And if obligatory on him, then let us raise a further him, then let us raise a further him, then let us raise a further question, whether this dieting of question, whether this dieting of question, whether this dieting of disorders which is an impediment to the disorders which is an impediment to the disorders which is an impediment to the application of the mind in carpentering application of the mind in carpentering application of the mind in carpentering in the mechanical arts does not equally in the mechanical arts does not equally in the mechanical arts does not equally stand in the way of the sentiment of stand in the way of the sentiment of stand in the way of the sentiment of Posidonius?

Posidonius? Posidonius? Of that, he replied, there can be no Of that, he replied, there can be no Of that, he replied, there can be no doubt. Such excessive care of the body, doubt. Such excessive care of the body, doubt. Such excessive care of the body, when carried beyond the rules of when carried beyond the rules of when carried beyond the rules of gymnastic, is is most inimical to the gymnastic, is is most inimical to the gymnastic, is is most inimical to the practice of virtue. practice of virtue. practice of virtue. Yes, indeed, I replied, and equally Yes, indeed, I replied, and equally Yes, indeed, I replied, and equally incompatible with the management of a incompatible with the management of a incompatible with the management of a house, an army, or an office of state. house, an army, or an office of state. house, an army, or an office of state. And what is most important of all, And what is most important of all, And what is most important of all, irreconcilable with any kind of study or irreconcilable with any kind of study or irreconcilable with any kind of study or thought or self-reflection. thought or self-reflection. thought or self-reflection. There is a constant suspicion that There is a constant suspicion that There is a constant suspicion that headache and giddiness are to be headache and giddiness are to be headache and giddiness are to be ascribed to philosophy, and hence all ascribed to philosophy, and hence all ascribed to philosophy, and hence all practicing or making trial of virtue in practicing or making trial of virtue in practicing or making trial of virtue in the higher sense is absolutely stopped. the higher sense is absolutely stopped. the higher sense is absolutely stopped. For a man is always fancying that he is For a man is always fancying that he is For a man is always fancying that he is being made ill, and is in constant being made ill, and is in constant being made ill, and is in constant anxiety about the state of his body. anxiety about the state of his body. anxiety about the state of his body. Yes, likely enough. Yes, likely enough. Yes, likely enough. And therefore, our politic Asclepius may And therefore, our politic Asclepius may And therefore, our politic Asclepius may be supposed to have exhibited the power be supposed to have exhibited the power be supposed to have exhibited the power of his art only to persons who, being of his art only to persons who, being of his art only to persons who, being generally of healthy constitution and generally of healthy constitution and generally of healthy constitution and habits of life, had a definite ailment, habits of life, had a definite ailment, habits of life, had a definite ailment, such as those he cured by purges and such as those he cured by purges and such as those he cured by purges and operations, and bade them live as usual, operations, and bade them live as usual, operations, and bade them live as usual, herein consulting the interests of the herein consulting the interests of the herein consulting the interests of the state.

state. state. But bodies which disease had penetrated But bodies which disease had penetrated But bodies which disease had penetrated through and through, he would not have through and through, he would not have through and through, he would not have attempted to cure by gradual processes attempted to cure by gradual processes attempted to cure by gradual processes of evacuation and infusion. He did not of evacuation and infusion. He did not of evacuation and infusion. He did not want to lengthen out good-for-nothing want to lengthen out good-for-nothing want to lengthen out good-for-nothing lives, or to have weak fathers begetting lives, or to have weak fathers begetting lives, or to have weak fathers begetting weaker sons. weaker sons. weaker sons. If a man was not living in the ordinary If a man was not living in the ordinary If a man was not living in the ordinary way, he had no business to cure him, for way, he had no business to cure him, for way, he had no business to cure him, for such a cure would have been of no use such a cure would have been of no use such a cure would have been of no use either to himself or to the state. either to himself or to the state. either to himself or to the state. Then, he said, you regard Asclepius as a Then, he said, you regard Asclepius as a Then, he said, you regard Asclepius as a statesman. statesman. statesman. Clearly. And his character is further Clearly. And his character is further Clearly. And his character is further illustrated by his sons. Note that they illustrated by his sons. Note that they illustrated by his sons. Note that they were heroes in the days of old, and were heroes in the days of old, and were heroes in the days of old, and practiced the medicines of which I am practiced the medicines of which I am practiced the medicines of which I am speaking at the siege of Troy. speaking at the siege of Troy. speaking at the siege of Troy. You will remember how, when Pandarus You will remember how, when Pandarus You will remember how, when Pandarus wounded Menelaus, they sucked the blood wounded Menelaus, they sucked the blood wounded Menelaus, they sucked the blood out of the wound and sprinkled soothing out of the wound and sprinkled soothing out of the wound and sprinkled soothing remedies. remedies. remedies. But they never prescribed what the But they never prescribed what the But they never prescribed what the patient was afterwards to eat or drink patient was afterwards to eat or drink patient was afterwards to eat or drink in the case of Menelaus, any more than in the case of Menelaus, any more than in the case of Menelaus, any more than in the case of Euripylus. in the case of Euripylus. in the case of Euripylus. The remedies, as they conceived, were The remedies, as they conceived, were The remedies, as they conceived, were enough to heal any man who before he was enough to heal any man who before he was enough to heal any man who before he was wounded was healthy and regular in his wounded was healthy and regular in his wounded was healthy and regular in his habits. And even though he did happen to habits. And even though he did happen to habits. And even though he did happen to drink a posset of Pramnian wine, he drink a posset of Pramnian wine, he drink a posset of Pramnian wine, he might get well all the same. But they might get well all the same. But they might get well all the same. But they would have nothing to do with unhealthy would have nothing to do with unhealthy would have nothing to do with unhealthy and intemperate subjects whose lives and intemperate subjects whose lives and intemperate subjects whose lives were of no use either to themselves or were of no use either to themselves or were of no use either to themselves or others.

others. others. The art of medicine was not designed for The art of medicine was not designed for The art of medicine was not designed for their good. And though they were as rich their good. And though they were as rich their good. And though they were as rich as Midas, the sons of Asclepius would as Midas, the sons of Asclepius would as Midas, the sons of Asclepius would have declined to attend them. have declined to attend them. have declined to attend them. They were very acute persons, those sons They were very acute persons, those sons They were very acute persons, those sons of Asclepius. of Asclepius. of Asclepius. Naturally so, I replied. Nevertheless, Naturally so, I replied. Nevertheless, Naturally so, I replied. Nevertheless, the tragedians and Pindar, disobeying the tragedians and Pindar, disobeying the tragedians and Pindar, disobeying our behests, although they acknowledge our behests, although they acknowledge our behests, although they acknowledge that Asclepius was the son of Apollo, that Asclepius was the son of Apollo, that Asclepius was the son of Apollo, say also that he was bribed into healing say also that he was bribed into healing say also that he was bribed into healing a rich man who was at the point of a rich man who was at the point of a rich man who was at the point of death. And for this reason he was struck death. And for this reason he was struck death. And for this reason he was struck by lightning. by lightning. by lightning. But we, in accordance with the principle But we, in accordance with the principle But we, in accordance with the principle already affirmed by us, will not believe already affirmed by us, will not believe already affirmed by us, will not believe them when they tell us both. If he was a them when they tell us both. If he was a them when they tell us both. If he was a son of a god, we maintain that he was son of a god, we maintain that he was son of a god, we maintain that he was not avaricious. Or if he was avaricious, not avaricious. Or if he was avaricious, not avaricious. Or if he was avaricious, he was not the son of a god. he was not the son of a god. he was not the son of a god. All that, Socrates, is excellent. But I All that, Socrates, is excellent. But I All that, Socrates, is excellent. But I should like to put a question to you. should like to put a question to you. should like to put a question to you. Ought there not to be good physicians in Ought there not to be good physicians in Ought there not to be good physicians in a state? And are not the best those who a state? And are not the best those who a state? And are not the best those who have treated the greatest number of have treated the greatest number of have treated the greatest number of constitutions, good or bad?

constitutions, good or bad? constitutions, good or bad? And are not the best judges, in like And are not the best judges, in like And are not the best judges, in like manner, those who are acquainted with manner, those who are acquainted with manner, those who are acquainted with all sorts of moral natures? all sorts of moral natures? all sorts of moral natures? Yes, I said. I too would have good Yes, I said. I too would have good Yes, I said. I too would have good judges and good physicians. judges and good physicians. judges and good physicians. But do you know whom I think good? But do you know whom I think good? But do you know whom I think good? Will you tell me? I will, if I can. Will you tell me? I will, if I can. Will you tell me? I will, if I can. Let me, however, note that in the same Let me, however, note that in the same Let me, however, note that in the same question you join two things which are question you join two things which are question you join two things which are not the same. not the same. not the same. How so? He asked. Why? I said, you join How so? He asked. Why? I said, you join How so? He asked. Why? I said, you join physicians and judges. physicians and judges. physicians and judges. Now, the most skillful physicians are Now, the most skillful physicians are Now, the most skillful physicians are those who, from their youth upwards, those who, from their youth upwards, those who, from their youth upwards, have combined with the knowledge of have combined with the knowledge of have combined with the knowledge of their art the greatest experience of their art the greatest experience of their art the greatest experience of disease. They had better not be robust disease. They had better not be robust disease. They had better not be robust in health and should have had all manner in health and should have had all manner in health and should have had all manner of diseases in their own persons. of diseases in their own persons. of diseases in their own persons. For the body, as I conceive, is not the For the body, as I conceive, is not the For the body, as I conceive, is not the instrument with which they cure the instrument with which they cure the instrument with which they cure the body. body. body. In that case, we could not allow them In that case, we could not allow them In that case, we could not allow them ever to be or to have been sickly. ever to be or to have been sickly. ever to be or to have been sickly. But they cure the body with the mind, But they cure the body with the mind, But they cure the body with the mind, and the mind which has become and is and the mind which has become and is and the mind which has become and is sick can cure nothing.

sick can cure nothing. sick can cure nothing. That is very true, he said. That is very true, he said. That is very true, he said. But with the judge, it is otherwise, But with the judge, it is otherwise, But with the judge, it is otherwise, since he governs mind by mind. He ought since he governs mind by mind. He ought since he governs mind by mind. He ought not, therefore, to have been trained not, therefore, to have been trained not, therefore, to have been trained among vicious minds and to have among vicious minds and to have among vicious minds and to have associated with them from youth upwards, associated with them from youth upwards, associated with them from youth upwards, and to have gone through the whole and to have gone through the whole and to have gone through the whole calendar of crime, only in order that he calendar of crime, only in order that he calendar of crime, only in order that he may quickly infer the crimes of others may quickly infer the crimes of others may quickly infer the crimes of others as he might their bodily diseases from as he might their bodily diseases from as he might their bodily diseases from his own self-consciousness. his own self-consciousness. his own self-consciousness. The honorable mind which is to form a The honorable mind which is to form a The honorable mind which is to form a healthy judgment should have had no healthy judgment should have had no healthy judgment should have had no experience or contamination of evil experience or contamination of evil experience or contamination of evil habits when young. habits when young. habits when young. And this is the reason why in youth good And this is the reason why in youth good And this is the reason why in youth good men often appear to be simple and are men often appear to be simple and are men often appear to be simple and are easily practiced upon by the dishonest, easily practiced upon by the dishonest, easily practiced upon by the dishonest, because they have no examples of what because they have no examples of what because they have no examples of what evil is in their own souls. evil is in their own souls. evil is in their own souls. Yes, he said, they are far too apt to be Yes, he said, they are far too apt to be Yes, he said, they are far too apt to be deceived. deceived. deceived. Therefore, I said, the judge should not Therefore, I said, the judge should not Therefore, I said, the judge should not be young. He should have learned to know be young. He should have learned to know be young. He should have learned to know evil not from his own soul, but from evil not from his own soul, but from evil not from his own soul, but from late and long observation of the nature late and long observation of the nature late and long observation of the nature of evil in others. Knowledge should be of evil in others. Knowledge should be of evil in others. Knowledge should be his guide, not personal experience. Yes, his guide, not personal experience. Yes, his guide, not personal experience. Yes, he said, that is the ideal of a judge.

he said, that is the ideal of a judge. he said, that is the ideal of a judge. Yes, I replied, and he will be a good Yes, I replied, and he will be a good Yes, I replied, and he will be a good man, which is my answer to your man, which is my answer to your man, which is my answer to your question. For he is good who has a good question. For he is good who has a good question. For he is good who has a good soul. But the cunning and suspicious soul. But the cunning and suspicious soul. But the cunning and suspicious nature of which we spoke, he who has nature of which we spoke, he who has nature of which we spoke, he who has committed many crimes and fancy himself committed many crimes and fancy himself committed many crimes and fancy himself to be a master in wickedness, when he is to be a master in wickedness, when he is to be a master in wickedness, when he is amongst his fellows, is wonderful in the amongst his fellows, is wonderful in the amongst his fellows, is wonderful in the precautions which he takes because he precautions which he takes because he precautions which he takes because he judges of them by himself. But when he judges of them by himself. But when he judges of them by himself. But when he gets into the company of men of virtue gets into the company of men of virtue gets into the company of men of virtue who have the experience of age, he who have the experience of age, he who have the experience of age, he appears to be a fool again owing to his appears to be a fool again owing to his appears to be a fool again owing to his unseasonable suspicions. He cannot unseasonable suspicions. He cannot unseasonable suspicions. He cannot recognize an honest man because he has recognize an honest man because he has recognize an honest man because he has no pattern of honesty in himself. And at no pattern of honesty in himself. And at no pattern of honesty in himself. And at the same time, as the bad are more the same time, as the bad are more the same time, as the bad are more numerous than the good, and he meets numerous than the good, and he meets numerous than the good, and he meets with them oftener, he thinks himself and with them oftener, he thinks himself and with them oftener, he thinks himself and is by others thought to be rather wise is by others thought to be rather wise is by others thought to be rather wise than foolish. Most true, he said. than foolish. Most true, he said. than foolish. Most true, he said. Then the good and wise judge whom we are Then the good and wise judge whom we are Then the good and wise judge whom we are seeking is not this man, but the other. seeking is not this man, but the other. seeking is not this man, but the other. For vice cannot know virtue, too. But a For vice cannot know virtue, too. But a For vice cannot know virtue, too. But a virtuous nature, educated by time, will virtuous nature, educated by time, will virtuous nature, educated by time, will acquire a knowledge both of virtue and acquire a knowledge both of virtue and acquire a knowledge both of virtue and vice. The virtuous and not the vicious vice. The virtuous and not the vicious vice. The virtuous and not the vicious man has wisdom, in my opinion.

man has wisdom, in my opinion. man has wisdom, in my opinion. And in mine also. And in mine also. And in mine also. This is the state of medicine, and this This is the state of medicine, and this This is the state of medicine, and this is the sort of law which you will is the sort of law which you will is the sort of law which you will sanction in your state. They will sanction in your state. They will sanction in your state. They will minister to better natures, giving minister to better natures, giving minister to better natures, giving health both of soul and of body. health both of soul and of body. health both of soul and of body. But those who are diseased in their But those who are diseased in their But those who are diseased in their bodies, they will leave to die. And the bodies, they will leave to die. And the bodies, they will leave to die. And the corrupt and incurable souls, they will corrupt and incurable souls, they will corrupt and incurable souls, they will put an end to themselves. put an end to themselves. put an end to themselves. That is clearly the best thing both for That is clearly the best thing both for That is clearly the best thing both for the patients and for the state. And the patients and for the state. And the patients and for the state. And thus, our youth, having been educated thus, our youth, having been educated thus, our youth, having been educated only in that simple music which, as we only in that simple music which, as we only in that simple music which, as we said, inspires temperance, will be said, inspires temperance, will be said, inspires temperance, will be reluctant to go to law. Clearly. And the reluctant to go to law. Clearly. And the reluctant to go to law. Clearly. And the musician who, keeping the same track is musician who, keeping the same track is musician who, keeping the same track is content to practice the simple content to practice the simple content to practice the simple gymnastic, will have nothing to do with gymnastic, will have nothing to do with gymnastic, will have nothing to do with medicine, unless in some extreme case. medicine, unless in some extreme case. medicine, unless in some extreme case. That I quite believe. That I quite believe. That I quite believe. The very exercises and tools which he The very exercises and tools which he The very exercises and tools which he undergoes are intended to stimulate the undergoes are intended to stimulate the undergoes are intended to stimulate the spirited element of his nature, and not spirited element of his nature, and not spirited element of his nature, and not to increase his strength. He will not, to increase his strength. He will not, to increase his strength. He will not, like common athletes, use exercise and like common athletes, use exercise and like common athletes, use exercise and regimen to develop his muscles. Very regimen to develop his muscles. Very regimen to develop his muscles. Very right, he said. Neither are the two arts right, he said. Neither are the two arts right, he said. Neither are the two arts of music and gymnastic really designed, of music and gymnastic really designed, of music and gymnastic really designed, as is often supposed, the one for the as is often supposed, the one for the as is often supposed, the one for the training of the soul, the other for the training of the soul, the other for the training of the soul, the other for the training of the body.

training of the body. training of the body. What then is the real object of them? What then is the real object of them? What then is the real object of them? I believe, I said, that the teachers of I believe, I said, that the teachers of I believe, I said, that the teachers of both have in view chiefly the both have in view chiefly the both have in view chiefly the improvement of the soul. improvement of the soul. improvement of the soul. How can that be? He asked. How can that be? He asked. How can that be? He asked. Did you never observe, I said, the Did you never observe, I said, the Did you never observe, I said, the effect on the mind itself of exclusive effect on the mind itself of exclusive effect on the mind itself of exclusive devotion to gymnastic, or the opposite devotion to gymnastic, or the opposite devotion to gymnastic, or the opposite effect of an exclusive devotion to effect of an exclusive devotion to effect of an exclusive devotion to music? In what way shown? He said. music? In what way shown? He said. music? In what way shown? He said. The one producing a temper of hardness The one producing a temper of hardness The one producing a temper of hardness and ferocity, the other of softness and and ferocity, the other of softness and and ferocity, the other of softness and effeminacy, I replied. effeminacy, I replied. effeminacy, I replied. Yes, he said, I am quite aware that the Yes, he said, I am quite aware that the Yes, he said, I am quite aware that the mere athlete becomes too much of a mere athlete becomes too much of a mere athlete becomes too much of a savage, and that the mere musician is savage, and that the mere musician is savage, and that the mere musician is melted and softened beyond what is good melted and softened beyond what is good melted and softened beyond what is good for him. for him. for him. Yet surely, I said, this ferocity only Yet surely, I said, this ferocity only Yet surely, I said, this ferocity only comes from spirit, which if rightly comes from spirit, which if rightly comes from spirit, which if rightly educated would give courage, but if too educated would give courage, but if too educated would give courage, but if too much intensified is liable to become much intensified is liable to become much intensified is liable to become hard and brutal. That I quite think. hard and brutal. That I quite think. hard and brutal. That I quite think. On the other hand, the philosopher will On the other hand, the philosopher will On the other hand, the philosopher will have the quality of gentleness, and this have the quality of gentleness, and this have the quality of gentleness, and this also, when too much indulged, will turn also, when too much indulged, will turn also, when too much indulged, will turn to softness, but if educated rightly to softness, but if educated rightly to softness, but if educated rightly will be gentle and moderate. True. And will be gentle and moderate. True. And will be gentle and moderate. True. And in our opinion the guardians ought to in our opinion the guardians ought to in our opinion the guardians ought to have both these qualities? Assuredly.

have both these qualities? Assuredly. have both these qualities? Assuredly. And both should be in harmony. Beyond a And both should be in harmony. Beyond a And both should be in harmony. Beyond a And the harmonious soul is both And the harmonious soul is both And the harmonious soul is both temperate and courageous. Yes. And the temperate and courageous. Yes. And the temperate and courageous. Yes. And the inharmonious is cowardly and boorish. inharmonious is cowardly and boorish. inharmonious is cowardly and boorish. Very true. Very true. Very true. And when a man allows music to play upon And when a man allows music to play upon And when a man allows music to play upon him and to pour into his soul through him and to pour into his soul through him and to pour into his soul through the funnel of his ears the funnel of his ears the funnel of his ears those sweet and soft and melancholy airs those sweet and soft and melancholy airs those sweet and soft and melancholy airs of which we were just now speaking, and of which we were just now speaking, and of which we were just now speaking, and his whole life is passed in warbling and his whole life is passed in warbling and his whole life is passed in warbling and the delights of a song the delights of a song the delights of a song in the first stage of the process, the in the first stage of the process, the in the first stage of the process, the passion or spirit which is in him is passion or spirit which is in him is passion or spirit which is in him is tempered like iron and made useful tempered like iron and made useful tempered like iron and made useful instead of brittle and useless. instead of brittle and useless. instead of brittle and useless. But if he carries on the softening and But if he carries on the softening and But if he carries on the softening and soothing process, in the next stage he soothing process, in the next stage he soothing process, in the next stage he begins to melt and waste until he has begins to melt and waste until he has begins to melt and waste until he has wasted away his spirit and cut out the wasted away his spirit and cut out the wasted away his spirit and cut out the sinews of his soul, and he becomes a sinews of his soul, and he becomes a sinews of his soul, and he becomes a feeble warrior. Very true. feeble warrior. Very true. feeble warrior. Very true. If the element of spirit is naturally If the element of spirit is naturally If the element of spirit is naturally weak in him, the change is speedily weak in him, the change is speedily weak in him, the change is speedily accomplished. But if he have a good accomplished. But if he have a good accomplished. But if he have a good deal, then the power of music weakening deal, then the power of music weakening deal, then the power of music weakening the spirit renders him excitable. At the the spirit renders him excitable. At the the spirit renders him excitable. At the least provocation, he flames up at once least provocation, he flames up at once least provocation, he flames up at once and is speedily extinguished. Instead of and is speedily extinguished. Instead of and is speedily extinguished. Instead of having spirit, he grows irritable and having spirit, he grows irritable and having spirit, he grows irritable and passionate and is quite impracticable.

passionate and is quite impracticable. passionate and is quite impracticable. Exactly. Exactly. Exactly. And so, in gymnastics, if a man takes And so, in gymnastics, if a man takes And so, in gymnastics, if a man takes violent exercise and is a great feeder violent exercise and is a great feeder violent exercise and is a great feeder and the reverse of a great student of and the reverse of a great student of and the reverse of a great student of music and philosophy, at first the high music and philosophy, at first the high music and philosophy, at first the high condition of his body fills him with condition of his body fills him with condition of his body fills him with pride and spirit, and he becomes twice pride and spirit, and he becomes twice pride and spirit, and he becomes twice the man that he was. Certainly. And what the man that he was. Certainly. And what the man that he was. Certainly. And what happens? If he do nothing else and holds happens? If he do nothing else and holds happens? If he do nothing else and holds no converse with the Muses does not even no converse with the Muses does not even no converse with the Muses does not even that intelligence which there may be in that intelligence which there may be in that intelligence which there may be in him, having no taste of any sort of him, having no taste of any sort of him, having no taste of any sort of learning or inquiry or thought or learning or inquiry or thought or learning or inquiry or thought or culture, grow feeble and dull and blind, culture, grow feeble and dull and blind, culture, grow feeble and dull and blind, his mind never waking up or receiving his mind never waking up or receiving his mind never waking up or receiving nourishment, and his senses not being nourishment, and his senses not being nourishment, and his senses not being purged of their mists. purged of their mists. purged of their mists. True, he said. True, he said. True, he said. And he ends by becoming a hater of And he ends by becoming a hater of And he ends by becoming a hater of philosophy, uncivilized, never using the philosophy, uncivilized, never using the philosophy, uncivilized, never using the weapons of persuasion. weapons of persuasion. weapons of persuasion. He is like a wild beast, all violence He is like a wild beast, all violence He is like a wild beast, all violence and fierceness, and knows no other way and fierceness, and knows no other way and fierceness, and knows no other way of dealing. And he lives in all of dealing. And he lives in all of dealing. And he lives in all ignorance and evil conditions, and has ignorance and evil conditions, and has ignorance and evil conditions, and has no sense of propriety and grace.

no sense of propriety and grace. no sense of propriety and grace. That is quite true, he said. That is quite true, he said. That is quite true, he said. And as there are two principles of human And as there are two principles of human And as there are two principles of human nature, one the spirited and the other nature, one the spirited and the other nature, one the spirited and the other philosophical, some god, as I should philosophical, some god, as I should philosophical, some god, as I should say, has given mankind two arts say, has given mankind two arts say, has given mankind two arts answering to them, and only indirectly answering to them, and only indirectly answering to them, and only indirectly to the soul and the body, in order that to the soul and the body, in order that to the soul and the body, in order that these two principles, like the strings these two principles, like the strings these two principles, like the strings of an instrument, may be relaxed or of an instrument, may be relaxed or of an instrument, may be relaxed or drawn tighter until they are duly drawn tighter until they are duly drawn tighter until they are duly harmonized. harmonized. harmonized. That appears to be the intention. That appears to be the intention. That appears to be the intention. And he who mingles music with gymnastic And he who mingles music with gymnastic And he who mingles music with gymnastic in the fairest proportions and best in the fairest proportions and best in the fairest proportions and best attempers them to the soul may be attempers them to the soul may be attempers them to the soul may be rightly called the true musician and rightly called the true musician and rightly called the true musician and harmonist in a far higher sense than the harmonist in a far higher sense than the harmonist in a far higher sense than the tuner of the strings. tuner of the strings. tuner of the strings. You are quite right, Socrates. You are quite right, Socrates. You are quite right, Socrates. And such a presiding genius will always And such a presiding genius will always And such a presiding genius will always be required in our state if the be required in our state if the be required in our state if the government is to last. government is to last. government is to last. Yes, he will be absolutely necessary. Yes, he will be absolutely necessary. Yes, he will be absolutely necessary. Such then are our principles of nurture Such then are our principles of nurture Such then are our principles of nurture and education. Where would be the use of and education. Where would be the use of and education. Where would be the use of going into further details about the going into further details about the going into further details about the dances of our citizens or about the dances of our citizens or about the dances of our citizens or about the hunting and coursing, their gymnastic hunting and coursing, their gymnastic hunting and coursing, their gymnastic and equestrian contests? For these all and equestrian contests? For these all and equestrian contests? For these all follow the general principle, and having follow the general principle, and having follow the general principle, and having found that, we shall have no difficulty found that, we shall have no difficulty found that, we shall have no difficulty in discovering them.

in discovering them. in discovering them. I dare say that there will be no I dare say that there will be no I dare say that there will be no difficulty. difficulty. difficulty. Very good, I said. But then, what is the Very good, I said. But then, what is the Very good, I said. But then, what is the next question? next question? next question? Must we not ask who are to be the rulers Must we not ask who are to be the rulers Must we not ask who are to be the rulers and who subjects? and who subjects? and who subjects? Certainly. Certainly. Certainly. There can be no doubt that the elder There can be no doubt that the elder There can be no doubt that the elder must rule the younger. Clearly. And that must rule the younger. Clearly. And that must rule the younger. Clearly. And that the best of these must rule. That is the best of these must rule. That is the best of these must rule. That is also clear. also clear. also clear. Now, are not the best husbandmen those Now, are not the best husbandmen those Now, are not the best husbandmen those who are most devoted to husbandry? Yes. who are most devoted to husbandry? Yes. who are most devoted to husbandry? Yes. And as we are to have the best of And as we are to have the best of And as we are to have the best of guardians for our city, must they not be guardians for our city, must they not be guardians for our city, must they not be those who have the most the character of those who have the most the character of those who have the most the character of guardians? Yes. guardians? Yes. guardians? Yes. And to this end they ought to be wise And to this end they ought to be wise And to this end they ought to be wise and efficient and to have a special care and efficient and to have a special care and efficient and to have a special care of the state. of the state. of the state. True. And a man will be most likely to True. And a man will be most likely to True. And a man will be most likely to care about that which he loves. To be care about that which he loves. To be care about that which he loves. To be sure. And he will be most likely to love sure. And he will be most likely to love sure. And he will be most likely to love that which he regards as having the same that which he regards as having the same that which he regards as having the same interests with himself and that of which interests with himself and that of which interests with himself and that of which the good or evil fortune is supposed by the good or evil fortune is supposed by the good or evil fortune is supposed by him at any time most to affect his own.

him at any time most to affect his own. him at any time most to affect his own. Very true, he replied. Very true, he replied. Very true, he replied. Then there must be a selection. Let us Then there must be a selection. Let us Then there must be a selection. Let us note among the guardians those who in note among the guardians those who in note among the guardians those who in their whole life show the greatest their whole life show the greatest their whole life show the greatest eagerness to do what is for the good of eagerness to do what is for the good of eagerness to do what is for the good of their country and the greatest their country and the greatest their country and the greatest repugnance to do what is against her repugnance to do what is against her repugnance to do what is against her interests. Those are the right men. interests. Those are the right men. interests. Those are the right men. And they will have to be watched at And they will have to be watched at And they will have to be watched at every age in order that we may see every age in order that we may see every age in order that we may see whether they preserve their resolution whether they preserve their resolution whether they preserve their resolution and never under the influence either of and never under the influence either of and never under the influence either of force or enchantment forget or cast off force or enchantment forget or cast off force or enchantment forget or cast off their sense of duty to the state. their sense of duty to the state. their sense of duty to the state. How cast off? He said. How cast off? He said. How cast off? He said. I will explain to you, I replied. A I will explain to you, I replied. A I will explain to you, I replied. A resolution may go out of a man's mind resolution may go out of a man's mind resolution may go out of a man's mind either with his will or against his either with his will or against his either with his will or against his will. With his will when he gets rid of will. With his will when he gets rid of will. With his will when he gets rid of a falsehood and learns better. Against a falsehood and learns better. Against a falsehood and learns better. Against his will whenever he is deprived of a his will whenever he is deprived of a his will whenever he is deprived of a truth. truth. truth. I understand, he said, the willing loss I understand, he said, the willing loss I understand, he said, the willing loss of a resolution. The meaning of the of a resolution. The meaning of the of a resolution. The meaning of the unwilling I have yet to learn. unwilling I have yet to learn. unwilling I have yet to learn. Why, I said, do you not see that men are Why, I said, do you not see that men are Why, I said, do you not see that men are unwillingly deprived of a good and unwillingly deprived of a good and unwillingly deprived of a good and willingly of an evil?

willingly of an evil? willingly of an evil? Is not to have lost the truth and evil? Is not to have lost the truth and evil? Is not to have lost the truth and evil? And to possess the truth a good? And you And to possess the truth a good? And you And to possess the truth a good? And you would agree that to conceive things as would agree that to conceive things as would agree that to conceive things as they are as to possess the truth? they are as to possess the truth? they are as to possess the truth? Yes, he replied. I agree with you in Yes, he replied. I agree with you in Yes, he replied. I agree with you in thinking that mankind are deprived of thinking that mankind are deprived of thinking that mankind are deprived of truth against their will. truth against their will. truth against their will. And is not this involuntary deprivation And is not this involuntary deprivation And is not this involuntary deprivation caused either by theft or force or caused either by theft or force or caused either by theft or force or enchantment? Still, he replied, I do not enchantment? Still, he replied, I do not enchantment? Still, he replied, I do not understand you. understand you. understand you. I fear that I must have been talking I fear that I must have been talking I fear that I must have been talking darkly like the tragedians. darkly like the tragedians. darkly like the tragedians. I only mean that some men are changed by I only mean that some men are changed by I only mean that some men are changed by persuasion and that others forget. persuasion and that others forget. persuasion and that others forget. Argument steals away the hearts of one Argument steals away the hearts of one Argument steals away the hearts of one class and time of the other. Then this I class and time of the other. Then this I class and time of the other. Then this I call theft. Now you understand me? call theft. Now you understand me? call theft. Now you understand me? Yes. Yes. Yes. Those again who are forced are those Those again who are forced are those Those again who are forced are those whom the violence of some pain or grief whom the violence of some pain or grief whom the violence of some pain or grief compels to change their opinion. compels to change their opinion. compels to change their opinion. I understand, he said. And you are quite I understand, he said. And you are quite I understand, he said. And you are quite right. right. right. And you would also acknowledge that the And you would also acknowledge that the And you would also acknowledge that the enchanted are those who change their enchanted are those who change their enchanted are those who change their minds either under the softer influence minds either under the softer influence minds either under the softer influence of pleasure or the sterner influence of of pleasure or the sterner influence of of pleasure or the sterner influence of fear.

fear. fear. Yes, he said. Everything that deceives Yes, he said. Everything that deceives Yes, he said. Everything that deceives may be said to enchant. may be said to enchant. may be said to enchant. Therefore, as I was just now saying, we Therefore, as I was just now saying, we Therefore, as I was just now saying, we must inquire who are the best guardians must inquire who are the best guardians must inquire who are the best guardians of their own conviction that what they of their own conviction that what they of their own conviction that what they think the interest of the state is to be think the interest of the state is to be think the interest of the state is to be the rule of their lives. We must watch the rule of their lives. We must watch the rule of their lives. We must watch them from their youth upwards and make them from their youth upwards and make them from their youth upwards and make them perform form actions in which they them perform form actions in which they them perform form actions in which they are most likely to forget or to be are most likely to forget or to be are most likely to forget or to be deceived. And he who remembers and is deceived. And he who remembers and is deceived. And he who remembers and is not deceived is to be selected. And he not deceived is to be selected. And he not deceived is to be selected. And he who fails in the trial is to be who fails in the trial is to be who fails in the trial is to be rejected. That will be the way. rejected. That will be the way. rejected. That will be the way. Yes. And there should also be toils and Yes. And there should also be toils and Yes. And there should also be toils and pains and and conflicts prescribed for pains and and conflicts prescribed for pains and and conflicts prescribed for them in which they will be made to give them in which they will be made to give them in which they will be made to give further proof of the same qualities. further proof of the same qualities. further proof of the same qualities. Very right, he replied. Very right, he replied. Very right, he replied. And then, I said, we must try them with And then, I said, we must try them with And then, I said, we must try them with enchantments. That is the third sort of enchantments. That is the third sort of enchantments. That is the third sort of test, and see what will be their test, and see what will be their test, and see what will be their behavior. Like those who take coats amid behavior. Like those who take coats amid behavior. Like those who take coats amid noise and tumults to see if they are of noise and tumults to see if they are of noise and tumults to see if they are of a timid nature. So must we take our a timid nature. So must we take our a timid nature. So must we take our youth amid terrors of some kind, and youth amid terrors of some kind, and youth amid terrors of some kind, and again pass them into pleasures, and again pass them into pleasures, and again pass them into pleasures, and prove them more thoroughly than gold is prove them more thoroughly than gold is prove them more thoroughly than gold is proved in a furnace. That we may proved in a furnace. That we may proved in a furnace. That we may discover whether they are armed against discover whether they are armed against discover whether they are armed against all enchantments and of a noble bearing all enchantments and of a noble bearing all enchantments and of a noble bearing always, good guardians of themselves and always, good guardians of themselves and always, good guardians of themselves and of the music which they have learned, of the music which they have learned, of the music which they have learned, and retaining under all circumstances a and retaining under all circumstances a and retaining under all circumstances a rhythmical and harmonious nature, such rhythmical and harmonious nature, such rhythmical and harmonious nature, such as will be most serviceable to the as will be most serviceable to the as will be most serviceable to the individual and to the state. And he who

individual and to the state. And he who individual and to the state. And he who at every age, as boy and youth and in at every age, as boy and youth and in at every age, as boy and youth and in mature life, has come out of the trial mature life, has come out of the trial mature life, has come out of the trial victorious and pure, shall be appointed victorious and pure, shall be appointed victorious and pure, shall be appointed a ruler and guardian of the state. He a ruler and guardian of the state. He a ruler and guardian of the state. He shall be honored in life and death, and shall be honored in life and death, and shall be honored in life and death, and shall receive sepulture and other shall receive sepulture and other shall receive sepulture and other memorials of honor, the greatest that we memorials of honor, the greatest that we memorials of honor, the greatest that we have to give. have to give. have to give. But him who fails, we must reject. I am But him who fails, we must reject. I am But him who fails, we must reject. I am inclined to think that this is the sort inclined to think that this is the sort inclined to think that this is the sort of way in which our rulers and guardians of way in which our rulers and guardians of way in which our rulers and guardians should be chosen and appointed. I speak should be chosen and appointed. I speak should be chosen and appointed. I speak generally and not with any pretension to generally and not with any pretension to generally and not with any pretension to exactness. And speaking generally, I exactness. And speaking generally, I exactness. And speaking generally, I agree with you, he said. agree with you, he said. agree with you, he said. And perhaps the word guardian in the And perhaps the word guardian in the And perhaps the word guardian in the fullest sense ought to be applied to fullest sense ought to be applied to fullest sense ought to be applied to this higher class only, who preserve us this higher class only, who preserve us this higher class only, who preserve us against foreign enemies and maintain against foreign enemies and maintain against foreign enemies and maintain peace among our citizens at home. That peace among our citizens at home. That peace among our citizens at home. That the one may not have the will or the the one may not have the will or the the one may not have the will or the others the power to harm us. others the power to harm us. others the power to harm us. The young men whom we before called The young men whom we before called The young men whom we before called guardians may be more properly guardians may be more properly guardians may be more properly designated auxiliaries and supporters of designated auxiliaries and supporters of designated auxiliaries and supporters of the principles of the rulers. I agree the principles of the rulers. I agree the principles of the rulers. I agree with you, he said. How then may we with you, he said. How then may we with you, he said. How then may we devise one of these needful falsehoods devise one of these needful falsehoods devise one of these needful falsehoods of which we lately spoke, just one royal of which we lately spoke, just one royal of which we lately spoke, just one royal lie which may deceive the rulers, if lie which may deceive the rulers, if lie which may deceive the rulers, if that be possible, and at any rate the that be possible, and at any rate the that be possible, and at any rate the rest of the city. What sort of lie? he rest of the city. What sort of lie? he rest of the city. What sort of lie? he said.

said. said. Nothing new, I replied, only an old Nothing new, I replied, only an old Nothing new, I replied, only an old Phoenician tale of what has often Phoenician tale of what has often Phoenician tale of what has often occurred before now in other places. As occurred before now in other places. As occurred before now in other places. As the poets say and have made the world the poets say and have made the world the poets say and have made the world believe, though not in our time. believe, though not in our time. believe, though not in our time. And I do not know whether such an event And I do not know whether such an event And I do not know whether such an event could ever happen again, or could now could ever happen again, or could now could ever happen again, or could now even be made probable if it did. even be made probable if it did. even be made probable if it did. How your words seem to hesitate on your How your words seem to hesitate on your How your words seem to hesitate on your lips. lips. lips. You will not wonder, I replied, at my You will not wonder, I replied, at my You will not wonder, I replied, at my hesitation when you have heard. Speak, hesitation when you have heard. Speak, hesitation when you have heard. Speak, he said, and fear not. he said, and fear not. he said, and fear not. Well then, I will speak, although I Well then, I will speak, although I Well then, I will speak, although I really know not how to look you in the really know not how to look you in the really know not how to look you in the face, or in what words to utter the face, or in what words to utter the face, or in what words to utter the audacious fiction which I propose to audacious fiction which I propose to audacious fiction which I propose to communicate gradually, first to the communicate gradually, first to the communicate gradually, first to the rulers, then to the soldiers, and lastly rulers, then to the soldiers, and lastly rulers, then to the soldiers, and lastly to the people. to the people. to the people. They are to be told that their youth was They are to be told that their youth was They are to be told that their youth was a dream, and the education and training a dream, and the education and training a dream, and the education and training which they received from us an which they received from us an which they received from us an appearance only. appearance only. appearance only. In reality, during all that time they In reality, during all that time they In reality, during all that time they were being formed and fed in the womb of were being formed and fed in the womb of were being formed and fed in the womb of the earth, where they themselves and the earth, where they themselves and the earth, where they themselves and their arms and appurtenances were their arms and appurtenances were their arms and appurtenances were manufactured.

manufactured. manufactured. When they were completed, the earth, When they were completed, the earth, When they were completed, the earth, their mother, sent them up. And so, their mother, sent them up. And so, their mother, sent them up. And so, their country being their mother and their country being their mother and their country being their mother and also their nurse, they were bound to also their nurse, they were bound to also their nurse, they were bound to advise for her good and to defend her advise for her good and to defend her advise for her good and to defend her against attacks, and her citizens they against attacks, and her citizens they against attacks, and her citizens they are to regard as children of the earth are to regard as children of the earth are to regard as children of the earth and their own brothers. and their own brothers. and their own brothers. You had good reason, he said, to be You had good reason, he said, to be You had good reason, he said, to be ashamed of the lie which you were going ashamed of the lie which you were going ashamed of the lie which you were going to tell. to tell. to tell. True, I replied, but there is more True, I replied, but there is more True, I replied, but there is more coming. I have only told you half. coming. I have only told you half. coming. I have only told you half. Citizens, we shall say to them in our Citizens, we shall say to them in our Citizens, we shall say to them in our tale, you are brothers, yet God has tale, you are brothers, yet God has tale, you are brothers, yet God has framed you differently. Some of you have framed you differently. Some of you have framed you differently. Some of you have the power of command, and in the the power of command, and in the the power of command, and in the composition of these he has mingled composition of these he has mingled composition of these he has mingled gold, wherefore also they have the gold, wherefore also they have the gold, wherefore also they have the greatest honor. greatest honor. greatest honor. Others he has made of silver to be Others he has made of silver to be Others he has made of silver to be auxiliaries. Others again, who are to be auxiliaries. Others again, who are to be auxiliaries. Others again, who are to be husbandmen and craftsmen, he has husbandmen and craftsmen, he has husbandmen and craftsmen, he has composed of brass and iron. And the composed of brass and iron. And the composed of brass and iron. And the species will generally be preserved in species will generally be preserved in species will generally be preserved in the children. the children. the children. But as all are of the same original But as all are of the same original But as all are of the same original stock, a golden parent will sometimes stock, a golden parent will sometimes stock, a golden parent will sometimes have a silver son, or a silver parent a have a silver son, or a silver parent a have a silver son, or a silver parent a golden son.

golden son. golden son. And God proclaims as a first principle And God proclaims as a first principle And God proclaims as a first principle to the rulers, and above all else, that to the rulers, and above all else, that to the rulers, and above all else, that there is nothing which they should so there is nothing which they should so there is nothing which they should so anxiously guard, or of which they are to anxiously guard, or of which they are to anxiously guard, or of which they are to be such good guardians, as the purity of be such good guardians, as the purity of be such good guardians, as the purity of the race. the race. the race. They should observe what elements mingle They should observe what elements mingle They should observe what elements mingle in their offspring. For if the son of a in their offspring. For if the son of a in their offspring. For if the son of a golden or silver parent has an admixture golden or silver parent has an admixture golden or silver parent has an admixture of brass and iron, of brass and iron, of brass and iron, then nature orders a transposition of then nature orders a transposition of then nature orders a transposition of ranks, and the eye of the ruler must not ranks, and the eye of the ruler must not ranks, and the eye of the ruler must not be pitiful towards the child because he be pitiful towards the child because he be pitiful towards the child because he has to descend in the scale, and become has to descend in the scale, and become has to descend in the scale, and become a husbandman or artisan. Just as there a husbandman or artisan. Just as there a husbandman or artisan. Just as there may be sons of artisans who have an may be sons of artisans who have an may be sons of artisans who have an admixture of gold or silver in them are admixture of gold or silver in them are admixture of gold or silver in them are raised to honor, and become guardians or raised to honor, and become guardians or raised to honor, and become guardians or auxiliaries. auxiliaries. auxiliaries. For an oracle says that when a man of For an oracle says that when a man of For an oracle says that when a man of brass or iron guards the state, it will brass or iron guards the state, it will brass or iron guards the state, it will be destroyed. be destroyed. be destroyed. Such is the tale. Such is the tale. Such is the tale. Is there any possibility of making our Is there any possibility of making our Is there any possibility of making our citizens believe in it? Not in the citizens believe in it? Not in the citizens believe in it? Not in the present generation, he replied. There is present generation, he replied. There is present generation, he replied. There is no way of accomplishing this, but their no way of accomplishing this, but their no way of accomplishing this, but their sons may be made to believe in the tale, sons may be made to believe in the tale, sons may be made to believe in the tale, and their sons' sons, and posterity and their sons' sons, and posterity and their sons' sons, and posterity after them.

after them. after them. I see the difficulty, I replied. Yet the I see the difficulty, I replied. Yet the I see the difficulty, I replied. Yet the fostering of such a belief will make fostering of such a belief will make fostering of such a belief will make them care more for the city and for one them care more for the city and for one them care more for the city and for one another. another. another. Enough, however, of the fiction, which Enough, however, of the fiction, which Enough, however, of the fiction, which may now fly abroad upon the wings of may now fly abroad upon the wings of may now fly abroad upon the wings of rumor, while we arm our earth-born rumor, while we arm our earth-born rumor, while we arm our earth-born heroes and lead them forth under the heroes and lead them forth under the heroes and lead them forth under the command of their rulers. command of their rulers. command of their rulers. Let them look round and select a spot Let them look round and select a spot Let them look round and select a spot whence they can best suppress whence they can best suppress whence they can best suppress insurrection, if any prove refractory insurrection, if any prove refractory insurrection, if any prove refractory within, and also defend themselves within, and also defend themselves within, and also defend themselves against enemies who, like wolves, may against enemies who, like wolves, may against enemies who, like wolves, may come down on the fold from without. come down on the fold from without. come down on the fold from without. There let them encamp, and when they There let them encamp, and when they There let them encamp, and when they have encamped, let them sacrifice to the have encamped, let them sacrifice to the have encamped, let them sacrifice to the proper gods and prepare their dwellings. proper gods and prepare their dwellings. proper gods and prepare their dwellings. "Just so," he said. "Just so," he said. "Just so," he said. "And their dwellings must be such as "And their dwellings must be such as "And their dwellings must be such as will shield them against the cold of will shield them against the cold of will shield them against the cold of winter and the heat of summer." winter and the heat of summer." winter and the heat of summer." "I suppose you mean houses," he replied. "I suppose you mean houses," he replied. "I suppose you mean houses," he replied. "But yes," I said, "but they must be "But yes," I said, "but they must be "But yes," I said, "but they must be houses of soldiers and not of houses of soldiers and not of houses of soldiers and not of shopkeepers."

shopkeepers." shopkeepers." "What is the difference?" he said. "What is the difference?" he said. "What is the difference?" he said. "That I will endeavor to explain," I "That I will endeavor to explain," I "That I will endeavor to explain," I replied. "To keep watchdogs who from replied. "To keep watchdogs who from replied. "To keep watchdogs who from want of discipline or hunger or some want of discipline or hunger or some want of discipline or hunger or some evil habit or other would turn upon the evil habit or other would turn upon the evil habit or other would turn upon the sheep and worry them, and behave not sheep and worry them, and behave not sheep and worry them, and behave not like dogs but wolves, would be a foul like dogs but wolves, would be a foul like dogs but wolves, would be a foul and monstrous thing in a shepherd." and monstrous thing in a shepherd." and monstrous thing in a shepherd." "Truly monstrous," he said. "Truly monstrous," he said. "Truly monstrous," he said. "And therefore every care must be taken "And therefore every care must be taken "And therefore every care must be taken that our auxiliaries, being stronger that our auxiliaries, being stronger that our auxiliaries, being stronger than our citizens, may not grow to be than our citizens, may not grow to be than our citizens, may not grow to be too much for them and become savage too much for them and become savage too much for them and become savage tyrants instead of friends and allies." tyrants instead of friends and allies." tyrants instead of friends and allies." "Yes, great care should be taken. And "Yes, great care should be taken. And "Yes, great care should be taken. And would not a really good education would not a really good education would not a really good education furnish the best safeguard?" "But they furnish the best safeguard?" "But they furnish the best safeguard?" "But they are well educated already," he replied. are well educated already," he replied. are well educated already," he replied. "I cannot be so confident, my dear "I cannot be so confident, my dear "I cannot be so confident, my dear Glaucon," I said. "I am much more Glaucon," I said. "I am much more Glaucon," I said. "I am much more certain that they ought to be, and that certain that they ought to be, and that certain that they ought to be, and that true education, whatever that may be, true education, whatever that may be, true education, whatever that may be, will have the greatest tendency to will have the greatest tendency to will have the greatest tendency to civilize and humanize them in their civilize and humanize them in their civilize and humanize them in their relations to one another and to those relations to one another and to those relations to one another and to those who are under their protection."

who are under their protection." who are under their protection." "Very true," he replied. "Not only their "Very true," he replied. "Not only their "Very true," he replied. "Not only their educations, but their habitations and educations, but their habitations and educations, but their habitations and all that belongs to them should be such all that belongs to them should be such all that belongs to them should be such as will neither impair their virtue as as will neither impair their virtue as as will neither impair their virtue as guardians nor tempt them to prey upon guardians nor tempt them to prey upon guardians nor tempt them to prey upon the other citizens. Any man of sense the other citizens. Any man of sense the other citizens. Any man of sense must acknowledge that. must acknowledge that. must acknowledge that. He must. He must. He must. Then, now let us consider what will be Then, now let us consider what will be Then, now let us consider what will be their way of life if they are to realize their way of life if they are to realize their way of life if they are to realize our idea of them. In the first place, our idea of them. In the first place, our idea of them. In the first place, none of them should have any property of none of them should have any property of none of them should have any property of his own beyond what is absolutely his own beyond what is absolutely his own beyond what is absolutely necessary. necessary. necessary. Neither should they have a private house Neither should they have a private house Neither should they have a private house or store closed against anyone who has a or store closed against anyone who has a or store closed against anyone who has a mind to enter. mind to enter. mind to enter. Their provisions should be only such as Their provisions should be only such as Their provisions should be only such as are required by trained warriors who are are required by trained warriors who are are required by trained warriors who are men of temperance and courage. They men of temperance and courage. They men of temperance and courage. They should agree to receive from the should agree to receive from the should agree to receive from the citizens a fixed rate of pay, enough to citizens a fixed rate of pay, enough to citizens a fixed rate of pay, enough to meet the expenses of the year and no meet the expenses of the year and no meet the expenses of the year and no more. And they will go to mess and live more. And they will go to mess and live more. And they will go to mess and live together like soldiers in a camp. together like soldiers in a camp. together like soldiers in a camp. Gold and silver, we will tell them that Gold and silver, we will tell them that Gold and silver, we will tell them that they have from God. The diviner metal is they have from God. The diviner metal is they have from God. The diviner metal is The diviner metal is within them, and The diviner metal is within them, and The diviner metal is within them, and they have therefore no need of the dross they have therefore no need of the dross they have therefore no need of the dross which is current among men, and ought which is current among men, and ought which is current among men, and ought not to pollute the divine by any such not to pollute the divine by any such not to pollute the divine by any such earthly admixture. For that commoner earthly admixture. For that commoner earthly admixture. For that commoner metal has been the source of many unholy metal has been the source of many unholy metal has been the source of many unholy deeds, but their own is undefiled. And deeds, but their own is undefiled. And deeds, but their own is undefiled. And they alone of all the citizens may not they alone of all the citizens may not they alone of all the citizens may not touch or handle silver or gold, or be touch or handle silver or gold, or be touch or handle silver or gold, or be under the same roof with them, or wear under the same roof with them, or wear under the same roof with them, or wear them, or drink from them.

them, or drink from them. them, or drink from them. And this will be their salvation, and And this will be their salvation, and And this will be their salvation, and they will be the saviors of the state. they will be the saviors of the state. they will be the saviors of the state. But should they ever acquire homes or But should they ever acquire homes or But should they ever acquire homes or lands or monies of their own, they will lands or monies of their own, they will lands or monies of their own, they will become housekeepers and husbandmen become housekeepers and husbandmen become housekeepers and husbandmen instead of guardians, enemies and instead of guardians, enemies and instead of guardians, enemies and tyrants instead of allies of the other tyrants instead of allies of the other tyrants instead of allies of the other citizens, hating and being hated, citizens, hating and being hated, citizens, hating and being hated, plotting and being plotted against, they plotting and being plotted against, they plotting and being plotted against, they will pass their whole life in much will pass their whole life in much will pass their whole life in much greater terror of internal rather than greater terror of internal rather than greater terror of internal rather than external enemies. external enemies. external enemies. And the hour of ruin, both to themselves And the hour of ruin, both to themselves And the hour of ruin, both to themselves and to the rest of the state, will be at and to the rest of the state, will be at and to the rest of the state, will be at hand. hand. hand. For all which reasons, may we not say For all which reasons, may we not say For all which reasons, may we not say that thus shall our state be ordered, that thus shall our state be ordered, that thus shall our state be ordered, and that these shall be the regulations and that these shall be the regulations and that these shall be the regulations appointed by us for guardians concerning appointed by us for guardians concerning appointed by us for guardians concerning their houses and all their matters. their houses and all their matters. their houses and all their matters. Yes, Yes, Yes, said Glaucon.