Coding Agents Don't Scale Themselves. Neither Do Your Teams. — Patrick Debois, Tessl

>> Well, welcome. >> Well, welcome. Um Um Um last day, I guess. That's what happens. last day, I guess. That's what happens. last day, I guess. That's what happens. Um I'm going to talk to you maybe not on Um I'm going to talk to you maybe not on Um I'm going to talk to you maybe not on the technical side, but more on the the technical side, but more on the the technical side, but more on the organizational side. So, if you're here organizational side. So, if you're here organizational side. So, if you're here for any technology, you can still leave for any technology, you can still leave for any technology, you can still leave if you want to. So, in 2009, um So, in 2009, um a lot of people were telling me the idea a lot of people were telling me the idea a lot of people were telling me the idea of continuous delivery was crazy. of continuous delivery was crazy. of continuous delivery was crazy. And I feel we're in kind of the same And I feel we're in kind of the same And I feel we're in kind of the same era or kind of the same thing right now era or kind of the same thing right now era or kind of the same thing right now with a dark factory. It will not work with a dark factory. It will not work with a dark factory. It will not work here. That's what I keep hearing over here. That's what I keep hearing over here. That's what I keep hearing over and over again. and over again. and over again. Um but what they're actually signaling Um but what they're actually signaling Um but what they're actually signaling to me, we're not ready yet. to me, we're not ready yet. to me, we're not ready yet. So, it's not the technology that can't So, it's not the technology that can't So, it's not the technology that can't make it work. It's not something they make it work. It's not something they make it work. It's not something they won't be able to do eventually, but won't be able to do eventually, but won't be able to do eventually, but they're just not set up for this. they're just not set up for this. they're just not set up for this. And And And there's been a lot of conference talks there's been a lot of conference talks there's been a lot of conference talks here about optimizing agents with loops here about optimizing agents with loops here about optimizing agents with loops and harnesses and all those pieces, and and harnesses and all those pieces, and and harnesses and all those pieces, and I think that's great. But eventually, I think that's great. But eventually, I think that's great. But eventually, we'll get there, right? It's not that we'll get there, right? It's not that we'll get there, right? It's not that this is the rocket science. And yes, this is the rocket science. And yes, this is the rocket science. And yes, we'll have to assemble this in a good we'll have to assemble this in a good we'll have to assemble this in a good way, way, way, but one day, this will kind of become but one day, this will kind of become but one day, this will kind of become commodity. Somewhere maybe even going commodity. Somewhere maybe even going commodity. Somewhere maybe even going into one of the, you know, frontier labs into one of the, you know, frontier labs into one of the, you know, frontier labs that just offers this as a service and that just offers this as a service and that just offers this as a service and will kind of make this work. Uh and will kind of make this work. Uh and will kind of make this work. Uh and that's not going to be the that's not going to be the that's not going to be the differentiator differentiator differentiator um for your organization.

um for your organization. um for your organization. So, I'm starting from there up. Assume So, I'm starting from there up. Assume So, I'm starting from there up. Assume we're heading towards the dark factory, we're heading towards the dark factory, we're heading towards the dark factory, some kind of form of autonomous working some kind of form of autonomous working some kind of form of autonomous working within an organization. within an organization. within an organization. Um Um Um what I've seen for the people adopting what I've seen for the people adopting what I've seen for the people adopting this within our organization, including this within our organization, including this within our organization, including here where I work at Tessal, here where I work at Tessal, here where I work at Tessal, it changes dynamic of the way you it changes dynamic of the way you it changes dynamic of the way you collaborate around us. And for those collaborate around us. And for those collaborate around us. And for those familiar, there's like Conway's Law, familiar, there's like Conway's Law, familiar, there's like Conway's Law, like, you know, the way you organize like, you know, the way you organize like, you know, the way you organize yourselves and the tools, there is a yourselves and the tools, there is a yourselves and the tools, there is a relationship on how they interact and relationship on how they interact and relationship on how they interact and kind of work together on this. kind of work together on this. kind of work together on this. But today, I'm not talking about like But today, I'm not talking about like But today, I'm not talking about like how do you become better with your how do you become better with your how do you become better with your agent, but it is about how will will agent, but it is about how will will agent, but it is about how will will change your team dynamics, your change your team dynamics, your change your team dynamics, your platform, and your organization. So, platform, and your organization. So, platform, and your organization. So, that's what I'll take you through. Enabling the team. I assume most of you Enabling the team. I assume most of you somewhere work in a team and that you're somewhere work in a team and that you're somewhere work in a team and that you're not somewhere a solopreneur [music] not somewhere a solopreneur [music] not somewhere a solopreneur [music] working. So, working. So, working. So, it kind of works different than just you it kind of works different than just you it kind of works different than just you with your Claude code and a team working with your Claude code and a team working with your Claude code and a team working together around that with Claude or any together around that with Claude or any together around that with Claude or any of the coding agents there as well.

The narrative that I heard a lot is The narrative that I heard a lot is well, the developer eventually becomes well, the developer eventually becomes well, the developer eventually becomes more of a conductor and an orchestrator more of a conductor and an orchestrator more of a conductor and an orchestrator of agents. of agents. of agents. And then I think that's fair. That's And then I think that's fair. That's And then I think that's fair. That's been an evolution that we're on on the been an evolution that we're on on the been an evolution that we're on on the path where more like becoming the path where more like becoming the path where more like becoming the managers of the agent, they're kind of managers of the agent, they're kind of managers of the agent, they're kind of dealing with the agents. dealing with the agents. dealing with the agents. Now, what I've seen is that if Now, what I've seen is that if Now, what I've seen is that if eventually eventually eventually a lot of developers told me, "We didn't a lot of developers told me, "We didn't a lot of developers told me, "We didn't sign up for this. We didn't sign up for sign up for this. We didn't sign up for sign up for this. We didn't sign up for better prompting, writing better specs. better prompting, writing better specs. better prompting, writing better specs. We're engineers. We're technical." And We're engineers. We're technical." And We're engineers. We're technical." And that creates friction, like, is this the that creates friction, like, is this the that creates friction, like, is this the role that we really want to do? role that we really want to do? role that we really want to do? There was a thing that came around which There was a thing that came around which There was a thing that came around which maybe is more context engineering that maybe is more context engineering that maybe is more context engineering that put a first step around like, "Hey, it's put a first step around like, "Hey, it's put a first step around like, "Hey, it's not just a prompt. We'll test the not just a prompt. We'll test the not just a prompt. We'll test the prompt. We'll kind of evaluate the prompt. We'll kind of evaluate the prompt. We'll kind of evaluate the prompt. We'll kind of distribute the prompt. We'll kind of distribute the prompt. We'll kind of distribute the prompt and kind of optimize the prompt." prompt and kind of optimize the prompt." prompt and kind of optimize the prompt." So, yes, there's a little bit of So, yes, there's a little bit of So, yes, there's a little bit of engineering, but still a lot of engineering, but still a lot of engineering, but still a lot of developers kind of felt empty just developers kind of felt empty just developers kind of felt empty just working kind of with a prompt and a working kind of with a prompt and a working kind of with a prompt and a specification as such.

specification as such. specification as such. What I've seen is that when we started What I've seen is that when we started What I've seen is that when we started introducing harness and loops and introducing harness and loops and introducing harness and loops and eventually more autonomous work within eventually more autonomous work within eventually more autonomous work within the whole organization, the whole organization, the whole organization, a new technical path opened. a new technical path opened. a new technical path opened. All of a sudden, we were helping the All of a sudden, we were helping the All of a sudden, we were helping the agent with tooling, building tooling for agent with tooling, building tooling for agent with tooling, building tooling for the agent, and that kind of reignited the agent, and that kind of reignited the agent, and that kind of reignited some of the developers who kind of felt some of the developers who kind of felt some of the developers who kind of felt that it wasn't for them. Now, all of a that it wasn't for them. Now, all of a that it wasn't for them. Now, all of a sudden, they were like, "Yes, we can do sudden, they were like, "Yes, we can do sudden, they were like, "Yes, we can do this. We have that knowledge. We're like this. We have that knowledge. We're like this. We have that knowledge. We're like somehow helping this even with a kind of somehow helping this even with a kind of somehow helping this even with a kind of programmatic way." So, I I think that's programmatic way." So, I I think that's programmatic way." So, I I think that's interesting that the identity, where we interesting that the identity, where we interesting that the identity, where we say abstraction, abstraction, say abstraction, abstraction, say abstraction, abstraction, abstraction, abstraction, abstraction, technically, all of a sudden, the craft technically, all of a sudden, the craft technically, all of a sudden, the craft created some new location for more created some new location for more created some new location for more engineering stuff to go to. when I get the question, "Can we please when I get the question, "Can we please help people?" And there's skeptical help people?" And there's skeptical help people?" And there's skeptical people, what do they do? people, what do they do? people, what do they do? And I always really say that these are And I always really say that these are And I always really say that these are really great people really great people really great people to engage in creating better context for to engage in creating better context for to engage in creating better context for the agent because the agent because the agent because you tell them, "Please improve. Please you tell them, "Please improve. Please you tell them, "Please improve. Please put all your knowledge to improve the put all your knowledge to improve the put all your knowledge to improve the result of the agent." And the same with result of the agent." And the same with result of the agent." And the same with the harness. So, if you have those kind the harness. So, if you have those kind the harness. So, if you have those kind of more resistant people that like of more resistant people that like of more resistant people that like complain maybe about the quality that complain maybe about the quality that complain maybe about the quality that things were produced by just the vanilla things were produced by just the vanilla things were produced by just the vanilla kind of coding agent, use almost that kind of coding agent, use almost that kind of coding agent, use almost that anger, use kind of that skepticism to anger, use kind of that skepticism to anger, use kind of that skepticism to kind of make it better.

And the big mentality shift, And the big mentality shift, if I would advise a a a if I would advise a a a if I would advise a a a a company right now for their a company right now for their a company right now for their developers, is developers, is developers, is kind of stop fixing the code that the kind of stop fixing the code that the kind of stop fixing the code that the agent kind of produced, agent kind of produced, agent kind of produced, but improve the system. but improve the system. but improve the system. I'm I have I'm not the only one saying I'm I have I'm not the only one saying I'm I have I'm not the only one saying this in this event, but kind of that is this in this event, but kind of that is this in this event, but kind of that is the difference. Like you kind of improve the difference. Like you kind of improve the difference. Like you kind of improve the system. And I think it was Swyx the system. And I think it was Swyx the system. And I think it was Swyx uh a couple of years who said it, like uh a couple of years who said it, like uh a couple of years who said it, like stop building the thing, but build the stop building the thing, but build the stop building the thing, but build the thing that builds the thing, right? So, thing that builds the thing, right? So, thing that builds the thing, right? So, we going on that abstraction where that we going on that abstraction where that we going on that abstraction where that is with context, with harness, with is with context, with harness, with is with context, with harness, with loops. loops. loops. And that is kind of the change that a And that is kind of the change that a And that is kind of the change that a lot of people who are still very tightly lot of people who are still very tightly lot of people who are still very tightly in the loop, auto completion, prompting, in the loop, auto completion, prompting, in the loop, auto completion, prompting, that they kind of need to think about that they kind of need to think about that they kind of need to think about elevating this to the system thinking. elevating this to the system thinking. elevating this to the system thinking. So, So, So, what we're really trying to do is what we're really trying to do is what we're really trying to do is minimize the human touches, minimize the human touches, minimize the human touches, but still with good engineering but still with good engineering but still with good engineering practices. practices. practices. And some of the narrative that comes up And some of the narrative that comes up And some of the narrative that comes up more often in the beginning, we're like, more often in the beginning, we're like, more often in the beginning, we're like, "Oh, great. I write code in a prompt, "Oh, great. I write code in a prompt, "Oh, great. I write code in a prompt, and then it gives a result, and we can and then it gives a result, and we can and then it gives a result, and we can keep going."

keep going." keep going." Where we now see, well, we're kind of Where we now see, well, we're kind of Where we now see, well, we're kind of instructing it through prompts, but instructing it through prompts, but instructing it through prompts, but we're also instructing this like, we're also instructing this like, we're also instructing this like, "Please do it with tests. Please update "Please do it with tests. Please update "Please do it with tests. Please update the documentation. Please do this." All the documentation. Please do this." All the documentation. Please do this." All the things that we're saying to good the things that we're saying to good the things that we're saying to good engineers, we're now asking the agents engineers, we're now asking the agents engineers, we're now asking the agents to do. So, if you still have people who to do. So, if you still have people who to do. So, if you still have people who kind of yoloing their way into this, I kind of yoloing their way into this, I kind of yoloing their way into this, I think you should tell them, "No, stop think you should tell them, "No, stop think you should tell them, "No, stop doing this." Like, engineering practices doing this." Like, engineering practices doing this." Like, engineering practices still matter for you to maintain the still matter for you to maintain the still matter for you to maintain the system, and also for the agent to keep system, and also for the agent to keep system, and also for the agent to keep getting better at this. What I started seeing in some of the What I started seeing in some of the more advanced kind of teams is that more advanced kind of teams is that more advanced kind of teams is that their rituals of their rituals of their rituals of "Hey, we're doing a planning, and we're "Hey, we're doing a planning, and we're "Hey, we're doing a planning, and we're doing a retro in a team." doing a retro in a team." doing a retro in a team." That they weren't about like, "Hey, we That they weren't about like, "Hey, we That they weren't about like, "Hey, we had issues with the code." had issues with the code." had issues with the code." But we're saying, "We had issues with But we're saying, "We had issues with But we're saying, "We had issues with the system." the system." the system." So, on the retro part is like, "Hey, the So, on the retro part is like, "Hey, the So, on the retro part is like, "Hey, the agent went over and over hit this agent went over and over hit this agent went over and over hit this problem.

problem. problem. Can we fix the system?" That's something Can we fix the system?" That's something Can we fix the system?" That's something you'll learn in the retro. you'll learn in the retro. you'll learn in the retro. And on the planning side, what I started And on the planning side, what I started And on the planning side, what I started seeing is that things who were that were seeing is that things who were that were seeing is that things who were that were sufficiently scoped enough sufficiently scoped enough sufficiently scoped enough were easy to pick up by agents because were easy to pick up by agents because were easy to pick up by agents because they were well-defined and what still they were well-defined and what still they were well-defined and what still was left for the humans were the things was left for the humans were the things was left for the humans were the things that weren't scoped out well. that weren't scoped out well. that weren't scoped out well. So, we were like a split in the planning So, we were like a split in the planning So, we were like a split in the planning where we said, "These things can where we said, "These things can where we said, "These things can straight go into agents, well-defined, straight go into agents, well-defined, straight go into agents, well-defined, and the harness is getting better, and and the harness is getting better, and and the harness is getting better, and this is conversational things that we this is conversational things that we this is conversational things that we need to decide as a team." And And what I find important is you what I find important is you what I find important is you there's a certain there's a certain there's a certain kind of cycle that developers go kind of cycle that developers go kind of cycle that developers go through. Yes, they learn first about through. Yes, they learn first about through. Yes, they learn first about prompting, they get better, specs, prompting, they get better, specs, prompting, they get better, specs, context, harness loop. Also, the context, harness loop. Also, the context, harness loop. Also, the industry is learning like that. industry is learning like that. industry is learning like that. But, there is the lead of the team But, there is the lead of the team But, there is the lead of the team can say, "Well, stop prompting. can say, "Well, stop prompting. can say, "Well, stop prompting. Make the context reusable." Make the context reusable." Make the context reusable." Now, we got that. Now, we jump to the Now, we got that. Now, we jump to the Now, we got that. Now, we jump to the next. So, part of the team lead is next. So, part of the team lead is next. So, part of the team lead is putting that pace and almost that putting that pace and almost that putting that pace and almost that constraint and that directive in the constraint and that directive in the constraint and that directive in the team where it is doesn't work where you team where it is doesn't work where you team where it is doesn't work where you just say, "Go figure it out and do just say, "Go figure it out and do just say, "Go figure it out and do something on your own."

something on your own." something on your own." And one of the impacts of that is that And one of the impacts of that is that And one of the impacts of that is that if you start producing as a team more, if you start producing as a team more, if you start producing as a team more, the people downstream, the people downstream, the people downstream, GTM, GTM, GTM, people like that, people like that, people like that, they have a hard time keeping up. Even they have a hard time keeping up. Even they have a hard time keeping up. Even users have a hard time keeping up. So, users have a hard time keeping up. So, users have a hard time keeping up. So, you need to help them also with you need to help them also with you need to help them also with automation. So, your harness doesn't automation. So, your harness doesn't automation. So, your harness doesn't stop at your coding. It also is extended stop at your coding. It also is extended stop at your coding. It also is extended to those people as well. And the same to those people as well. And the same to those people as well. And the same thing with kind of requiring uh like thing with kind of requiring uh like thing with kind of requiring uh like gathering requirements, the input might gathering requirements, the input might gathering requirements, the input might not come fast enough for your team. So, not come fast enough for your team. So, not come fast enough for your team. So, that's another kind of piece that you that's another kind of piece that you that's another kind of piece that you need to tap into that workflow as well. There's a lot of metrics that people are There's a lot of metrics that people are saying like, "Hey, is your like tokens saying like, "Hey, is your like tokens saying like, "Hey, is your like tokens spend and all that stuff?" I spend and all that stuff?" I spend and all that stuff?" I started to believe in these two metrics started to believe in these two metrics started to believe in these two metrics kind of see on how to be more kind of see on how to be more kind of see on how to be more productive. productive. productive. One is you start measuring how many One is you start measuring how many One is you start measuring how many human touches you still do human touches you still do human touches you still do to have the agent do the right thing.

to have the agent do the right thing. to have the agent do the right thing. That's supposed to go down the better That's supposed to go down the better That's supposed to go down the better your harness is, the better your context your harness is, the better your context your harness is, the better your context is, the better your guidelines are. is, the better your guidelines are. is, the better your guidelines are. And on the other hand, And on the other hand, And on the other hand, if you're going from solo to shared if you're going from solo to shared if you're going from solo to shared system, system, system, that becomes a multiplier. You fix that becomes a multiplier. You fix that becomes a multiplier. You fix something once, everybody gets the something once, everybody gets the something once, everybody gets the benefit. This is not the multiplier from benefit. This is not the multiplier from benefit. This is not the multiplier from the one person becoming the 10x person, the one person becoming the 10x person, the one person becoming the 10x person, but the one change that optimized the but the one change that optimized the but the one change that optimized the agents has an impact on all the people. agents has an impact on all the people. agents has an impact on all the people. So, that is kind of the part that we're So, that is kind of the part that we're So, that is kind of the part that we're all You can start that in a team working all You can start that in a team working all You can start that in a team working together within your repo, sharing the together within your repo, sharing the together within your repo, sharing the context, working on a harness. But what context, working on a harness. But what context, working on a harness. But what you basically want to do is you want to you basically want to do is you want to you basically want to do is you want to scale this out. scale this out. scale this out. So, you come into the realm of the So, you come into the realm of the So, you come into the realm of the platform people, right? Because they're platform people, right? Because they're platform people, right? Because they're the typical shared organization working the typical shared organization working the typical shared organization working on this. on this. on this. Now, the platform people, Now, the platform people, Now, the platform people, they might not be paying close attention they might not be paying close attention they might not be paying close attention because they're like infrastructure and because they're like infrastructure and because they're like infrastructure and cloud and working on like MCP gateway cloud and working on like MCP gateway cloud and working on like MCP gateway and stuff like that. But there's new and stuff like that. But there's new and stuff like that. But there's new things like bubbling up there. They need things like bubbling up there. They need things like bubbling up there. They need to think about like maybe skill to think about like maybe skill to think about like maybe skill registries or eval systems for your registries or eval systems for your registries or eval systems for your context and guardrails specifically for context and guardrails specifically for context and guardrails specifically for coding agents and identities and stuff.

coding agents and identities and stuff. coding agents and identities and stuff. So, they need maybe a little bit of a So, they need maybe a little bit of a So, they need maybe a little bit of a hand kind of growing to that role. hand kind of growing to that role. hand kind of growing to that role. And And And that kind of central role, that kind of central role, that kind of central role, it's hard. it's hard. it's hard. You need an owner to drive that program, You need an owner to drive that program, You need an owner to drive that program, but is it the platform team? but is it the platform team? but is it the platform team? Is it developer experience team? They Is it developer experience team? They Is it developer experience team? They don't typically own any of those pieces don't typically own any of those pieces don't typically own any of those pieces of the infrastructure and the other of the infrastructure and the other of the infrastructure and the other people don't really do the development. people don't really do the development. people don't really do the development. So, there's somewhere a blend, but you So, there's somewhere a blend, but you So, there's somewhere a blend, but you need to kind of make sure that there's need to kind of make sure that there's need to kind of make sure that there's an owner driving this centralized piece an owner driving this centralized piece an owner driving this centralized piece and not just within your team. and not just within your team. and not just within your team. Because you won't have paved roads. Because you won't have paved roads. Because you won't have paved roads. And that's how I see it. Reusable And that's how I see it. Reusable And that's how I see it. Reusable context across teams. context across teams. context across teams. Why are we all inventing how we do the Why are we all inventing how we do the Why are we all inventing how we do the authentication system? authentication system? authentication system? Right? This is a shared component. Let's Right? This is a shared component. Let's Right? This is a shared component. Let's put it in the registry. put it in the registry. put it in the registry. Why are you building all your harnesses? Why are you building all your harnesses? Why are you building all your harnesses? Well, if we're all using the same Well, if we're all using the same Well, if we're all using the same linters and the same security tools, linters and the same security tools, linters and the same security tools, that's a reusable component. So, I think that's a reusable component. So, I think that's a reusable component. So, I think that will centralize similar to the that will centralize similar to the that will centralize similar to the paved path for cloud into that platform paved path for cloud into that platform paved path for cloud into that platform registry of reuse.

But, But, if everybody can put stuff like on the if everybody can put stuff like on the if everybody can put stuff like on the internet in a repo, internet in a repo, internet in a repo, it becomes a sprawl. it becomes a sprawl. it becomes a sprawl. And it becomes a thing like, well, he And it becomes a thing like, well, he And it becomes a thing like, well, he has a skill, he's maintaining it. That has a skill, he's maintaining it. That has a skill, he's maintaining it. That person is also has a similar skill and person is also has a similar skill and person is also has a similar skill and forked it. Now, what I do? Like, forked it. Now, what I do? Like, forked it. Now, what I do? Like, which one do I pick? So, there is a kind which one do I pick? So, there is a kind which one do I pick? So, there is a kind of thing that you say, there's an owner of thing that you say, there's an owner of thing that you say, there's an owner for this area. And they also care about for this area. And they also care about for this area. And they also care about making it testable. They make sure that making it testable. They make sure that making it testable. They make sure that it's modular, that other people can it's modular, that other people can it's modular, that other people can extend kind of the context, for example, extend kind of the context, for example, extend kind of the context, for example, or the harness, that it's security or the harness, that it's security or the harness, that it's security scanned. So, you build kind of a more scanned. So, you build kind of a more scanned. So, you build kind of a more centralized and the fact that it's centralized and the fact that it's centralized and the fact that it's secured and kind of maintained as secured and kind of maintained as secured and kind of maintained as something instead of just something I something instead of just something I something instead of just something I share around in my organization. share around in my organization. share around in my organization. Now, that consensus is hard. Now, that consensus is hard. Now, that consensus is hard. I'm not saying this is tabs versus I'm not saying this is tabs versus I'm not saying this is tabs versus spaces, but at times it feels like that. spaces, but at times it feels like that. spaces, but at times it feels like that. If you have two developer teams having If you have two developer teams having If you have two developer teams having to have consensus on the how the way to have consensus on the how the way to have consensus on the how the way they work, they work, they work, that requires a lot of communication and that requires a lot of communication and that requires a lot of communication and brokerage. So, you probably don't end up brokerage. So, you probably don't end up brokerage. So, you probably don't end up with one thing, but a catalog of three, with one thing, but a catalog of three, with one thing, but a catalog of three, four paved roads where they can pick four paved roads where they can pick four paved roads where they can pick off. And they can still do their own, off. And they can still do their own, off. And they can still do their own, but that's on their own budget. Right?

but that's on their own budget. Right? but that's on their own budget. Right? The centralized pieces will be The centralized pieces will be The centralized pieces will be maintained, and that is supposed to be maintained, and that is supposed to be maintained, and that is supposed to be the easy way of adoption to go there. the easy way of adoption to go there. the easy way of adoption to go there. Now, Now, Now, if they do this blindly, we also want to if they do this blindly, we also want to if they do this blindly, we also want to make sure that they know what it costs. make sure that they know what it costs. make sure that they know what it costs. Because if we visualize the cost, they Because if we visualize the cost, they Because if we visualize the cost, they might be eager to do some optimization might be eager to do some optimization might be eager to do some optimization in there. in there. in there. Right? And that kind of is part of the Right? And that kind of is part of the Right? And that kind of is part of the platform team is making that visible. platform team is making that visible. platform team is making that visible. How much is he spending? How much is How much is he spending? How much is How much is he spending? How much is that kind of like helping? If I can that kind of like helping? If I can that kind of like helping? If I can reduce the number of iterations the reduce the number of iterations the reduce the number of iterations the agent has to run through, that is an agent has to run through, that is an agent has to run through, that is an optimization that I can run. But if I optimization that I can run. But if I optimization that I can run. But if I don't visualize that and I just see the don't visualize that and I just see the don't visualize that and I just see the end result, then we don't know, right? end result, then we don't know, right? end result, then we don't know, right? So, that is part of the platform team So, that is part of the platform team So, that is part of the platform team helping people. helping people. helping people. And so, what I'm arguing is that And so, what I'm arguing is that And so, what I'm arguing is that we should somewhere move from the solo we should somewhere move from the solo we should somewhere move from the solo developer to the team shared kind of developer to the team shared kind of developer to the team shared kind of context and pieces to a multiplayer context and pieces to a multiplayer context and pieces to a multiplayer system in the organization. And I think system in the organization. And I think system in the organization. And I think that's where the multiplication effect that's where the multiplication effect that's where the multiplication effect will happen. will happen. will happen. Right? Because you're have this flywheel Right? Because you're have this flywheel Right? Because you're have this flywheel of improvements that go into multiple of improvements that go into multiple of improvements that go into multiple directions.

Now, Now, one layer higher, the VP of Engineering one layer higher, the VP of Engineering one layer higher, the VP of Engineering says, "How do I enable the says, "How do I enable the says, "How do I enable the organization?" Right? And that is organization?" Right? And that is organization?" Right? And that is that I you know, I can predict the story that I you know, I can predict the story that I you know, I can predict the story in your organization. Hackathon, a lunch in your organization. Hackathon, a lunch in your organization. Hackathon, a lunch and learn, let's share the successes, and learn, let's share the successes, and learn, let's share the successes, have a shared Slack channel, have a have a shared Slack channel, have a have a shared Slack channel, have a champions program. That's all generic champions program. That's all generic champions program. That's all generic transformation. It could have been Agile transformation. It could have been Agile transformation. It could have been Agile that transformed like that. It could that transformed like that. It could that transformed like that. It could have been DevOps. It doesn't matter. have been DevOps. It doesn't matter. have been DevOps. It doesn't matter. And on the other side, And on the other side, And on the other side, we know that the strategy of just, you we know that the strategy of just, you we know that the strategy of just, you know, give life to something and educate know, give life to something and educate know, give life to something and educate people, do something, let a thousand people, do something, let a thousand people, do something, let a thousand flowers bloom, it doesn't work. So, what flowers bloom, it doesn't work. So, what flowers bloom, it doesn't work. So, what I'm advocating is that the kind of on I'm advocating is that the kind of on I'm advocating is that the kind of on the organizational is that you give the the organizational is that you give the the organizational is that you give the team leads and the platform that mandate team leads and the platform that mandate team leads and the platform that mandate to start doing that work. And it's not to start doing that work. And it's not to start doing that work. And it's not the solo developer piece. Now, Now, finding people that help you externally finding people that help you externally finding people that help you externally is is mess. is is mess. is is mess. Yes, we have all the titles, the new job Yes, we have all the titles, the new job Yes, we have all the titles, the new job titles, AI product engineer, forward titles, AI product engineer, forward titles, AI product engineer, forward deployed engineer, you know, there was a deployed engineer, you know, there was a deployed engineer, you know, there was a whole talk on this, agentic engineer, AI whole talk on this, agentic engineer, AI whole talk on this, agentic engineer, AI engineer. It doesn't mean anything.

engineer. It doesn't mean anything. engineer. It doesn't mean anything. You cannot judge whether what the kind You cannot judge whether what the kind You cannot judge whether what the kind of the of the of the maturity of this because nobody's really maturity of this because nobody's really maturity of this because nobody's really that mature. that mature. that mature. But it's a signal when you put a job But it's a signal when you put a job But it's a signal when you put a job posting out there that people might with posting out there that people might with posting out there that people might with the new intention will be looking there. the new intention will be looking there. the new intention will be looking there. But it's not a validation of the skills But it's not a validation of the skills But it's not a validation of the skills as such, right? So that is challenging as such, right? So that is challenging as such, right? So that is challenging for people for people for people um kind of hiring people. um kind of hiring people. um kind of hiring people. Now, Now, Now, they come to the interview and I heard they come to the interview and I heard they come to the interview and I heard stories about uh people using AI to stories about uh people using AI to stories about uh people using AI to reflect uh in their ears be reflect uh in their ears be reflect uh in their ears be response to the interview person and response to the interview person and response to the interview person and stuff like that. stuff like that. stuff like that. I think what what I hear from most I think what what I hear from most I think what what I hear from most companies is they say companies is they say companies is they say first step is we give them an exercise first step is we give them an exercise first step is we give them an exercise and we want them to really go nuts on and we want them to really go nuts on and we want them to really go nuts on the AI to solve this. the AI to solve this. the AI to solve this. You know, if they have help from AI, You know, if they have help from AI, You know, if they have help from AI, that's all good. That shows you kind of that's all good. That shows you kind of that's all good. That shows you kind of like how much they can kind of leverage like how much they can kind of leverage like how much they can kind of leverage the AI to do this. the AI to do this. the AI to do this. Now, after they pass this, you do a Now, after they pass this, you do a Now, after they pass this, you do a walk-through and you actually say, walk-through and you actually say, walk-through and you actually say, "Please explain me what happened. Why is "Please explain me what happened. Why is "Please explain me what happened. Why is this a good idea?"

this a good idea?" this a good idea?" That's where you are testing the taste That's where you are testing the taste That's where you are testing the taste and the engineering skills on why and the engineering skills on why and the engineering skills on why they're doing this. First part AI, then they're doing this. First part AI, then they're doing this. First part AI, then engineering. engineering. engineering. And this third thing is how do you And this third thing is how do you And this third thing is how do you collaborate? Are you willing to share? collaborate? Are you willing to share? collaborate? Are you willing to share? Are you open or are you a solo player? Are you open or are you a solo player? Are you open or are you a solo player? That's another signal that you tap into. That's another signal that you tap into. That's another signal that you tap into. Right? But that fits into that whole Right? But that fits into that whole Right? But that fits into that whole thing of like making it shareable, thing of like making it shareable, thing of like making it shareable, making it reusable, making it making it reusable, making it making it reusable, making it engineering grade within our engineering grade within our engineering grade within our organization. Those are the people that organization. Those are the people that organization. Those are the people that you look for, not people who studied ML you look for, not people who studied ML you look for, not people who studied ML or AI, not people who are like experts or AI, not people who are like experts or AI, not people who are like experts per se at the coding. There's a blend on per se at the coding. There's a blend on per se at the coding. There's a blend on this. Now, you might not find a person this. Now, you might not find a person this. Now, you might not find a person who has all three, who has all three, who has all three, which is okay, but at least you know, which is okay, but at least you know, which is okay, but at least you know, like, hey, they're very savvy on this like, hey, they're very savvy on this like, hey, they're very savvy on this piece, but then for the other piece, piece, but then for the other piece, piece, but then for the other piece, they need mentoring and they need they need mentoring and they need they need mentoring and they need tutoring. tutoring. tutoring. But, like, don't put all the three But, like, don't put all the three But, like, don't put all the three pieces into one kind of saying like pieces into one kind of saying like pieces into one kind of saying like they're junior or they're senior. They they're junior or they're senior. They they're junior or they're senior. They have like different skills on there. have like different skills on there. have like different skills on there. Now, Now, Now, the VP of Engineering has to defend this the VP of Engineering has to defend this the VP of Engineering has to defend this and they would uh and they would uh and they would uh have to make the case, right?

have to make the case, right? have to make the case, right? Well, we have X amount of licenses that Well, we have X amount of licenses that Well, we have X amount of licenses that we sold. We have faster delivery, maybe we sold. We have faster delivery, maybe we sold. We have faster delivery, maybe they they can promise, but hard to they they can promise, but hard to they they can promise, but hard to prove. We have quality that improved, prove. We have quality that improved, prove. We have quality that improved, again, hard to say. again, hard to say. again, hard to say. But, But, But, similar to what I said with the metrics similar to what I said with the metrics similar to what I said with the metrics of how effective are your agents, you of how effective are your agents, you of how effective are your agents, you can show that how much turns and how can show that how much turns and how can show that how much turns and how much improvement that you're making on much improvement that you're making on much improvement that you're making on that journey. that journey. that journey. And same thing, how much there is reuse. And same thing, how much there is reuse. And same thing, how much there is reuse. So, it's an easier way to kind of show So, it's an easier way to kind of show So, it's an easier way to kind of show metrics than comparing productivity with metrics than comparing productivity with metrics than comparing productivity with and without agent decoding that help you and without agent decoding that help you and without agent decoding that help you in kind of those in kind of those in kind of those discussions as well. discussions as well. discussions as well. And so, when people say, And so, when people say, And so, when people say, uh the vendors are charging completely uh the vendors are charging completely uh the vendors are charging completely nuts, so we're going to limit the nuts, so we're going to limit the nuts, so we're going to limit the spends, spends, spends, you shouldn't say like, let's limit all you shouldn't say like, let's limit all you shouldn't say like, let's limit all the spends. the spends. the spends. Your reflection should be, let's Your reflection should be, let's Your reflection should be, let's optimize the spend and help them kind of optimize the spend and help them kind of optimize the spend and help them kind of reduce that uh in a good way, where reduce that uh in a good way, where reduce that uh in a good way, where that's as simple as saying, pick the that's as simple as saying, pick the that's as simple as saying, pick the right model, educate them on the model, right model, educate them on the model, right model, educate them on the model, but also on like giving them better but also on like giving them better but also on like giving them better context and harnesses because that will context and harnesses because that will context and harnesses because that will make your cost go down there as well.

The debate around smaller and bigger The debate around smaller and bigger teams, teams, teams, yes, it's nice to have like one person yes, it's nice to have like one person yes, it's nice to have like one person who can do it all. That's the ultimate who can do it all. That's the ultimate who can do it all. That's the ultimate dream. They can do everything. dream. They can do everything. dream. They can do everything. Typically, they're paired with a Typically, they're paired with a Typically, they're paired with a complementary skill, maybe PM, design, complementary skill, maybe PM, design, complementary skill, maybe PM, design, and so on. and so on. and so on. Okay, then we need a backup if one of Okay, then we need a backup if one of Okay, then we need a backup if one of them is on holiday so that amounts back them is on holiday so that amounts back them is on holiday so that amounts back to three. to three. to three. And then maybe somebody has to care And then maybe somebody has to care And then maybe somebody has to care about production and tickets coming in. about production and tickets coming in. about production and tickets coming in. Could be the same people if you're Could be the same people if you're Could be the same people if you're really productive, but yeah, you know, really productive, but yeah, you know, really productive, but yeah, you know, you lose speed of features if you're you lose speed of features if you're you lose speed of features if you're still doing bugs and still doing bugs and still doing bugs and that depends a little bit on your that depends a little bit on your that depends a little bit on your quality. And then there's the junior you quality. And then there's the junior you quality. And then there's the junior you want to get on the road as well to kind want to get on the road as well to kind want to get on the road as well to kind of make sure they're still learning what of make sure they're still learning what of make sure they're still learning what good looks like in one of those three good looks like in one of those three good looks like in one of those three areas. So, areas. So, areas. So, I think we're still limited in the way I think we're still limited in the way I think we're still limited in the way in an organization that we're not going in an organization that we're not going in an organization that we're not going to each team being a solo or one or two. to each team being a solo or one or two. to each team being a solo or one or two. Yes, a lot of experience, but I think Yes, a lot of experience, but I think Yes, a lot of experience, but I think that is the thing. Now, we keep that is the thing. Now, we keep that is the thing. Now, we keep investing in actually education for that investing in actually education for that investing in actually education for that piece as well. piece as well. piece as well. So, So, So, one of the final things is the dark one of the final things is the dark one of the final things is the dark factory, which is probably a dim factory, which is probably a dim factory, which is probably a dim factory.

factory. factory. You have to see what risk you're willing You have to see what risk you're willing You have to see what risk you're willing to take for what features. So, not all to take for what features. So, not all to take for what features. So, not all features will become autonomous, but you features will become autonomous, but you features will become autonomous, but you can invest more in auditing like can invest more in auditing like can invest more in auditing like problems, like who changed the code, problems, like who changed the code, problems, like who changed the code, verifiers that kind of check whether verifiers that kind of check whether verifiers that kind of check whether that code was useful and when it fails, that code was useful and when it fails, that code was useful and when it fails, you invest in situational awareness as you invest in situational awareness as you invest in situational awareness as well. So, there's a whole spectrum from well. So, there's a whole spectrum from well. So, there's a whole spectrum from being a micro manager to being on a being a micro manager to being on a being a micro manager to being on a autonomous approval that everything kind autonomous approval that everything kind autonomous approval that everything kind of is correct, but you make the decision of is correct, but you make the decision of is correct, but you make the decision on what your risk level is. on what your risk level is. on what your risk level is. And I think your mode is capturing the And I think your mode is capturing the And I think your mode is capturing the knowledge. knowledge. knowledge. Right? The knowledge you're putting now Right? The knowledge you're putting now Right? The knowledge you're putting now into skills, you're in your context, and into skills, you're in your context, and into skills, you're in your context, and maybe in your harness, the way you kind maybe in your harness, the way you kind maybe in your harness, the way you kind of restrain this, your business context. of restrain this, your business context. of restrain this, your business context. And for me, that kind of brings And for me, that kind of brings And for me, that kind of brings continuous delivery actually to continuous delivery actually to continuous delivery actually to continuous learning. continuous learning. continuous learning. And if you ask the question of how fast And if you ask the question of how fast And if you ask the question of how fast can we swap in swap out something new, can we swap in swap out something new, can we swap in swap out something new, that's your reactive mode. And if you that's your reactive mode. And if you that's your reactive mode. And if you can improve that ultimately, it's not can improve that ultimately, it's not can improve that ultimately, it's not about making the whole system more about making the whole system more about making the whole system more reliable, but can I keep it reliable reliable, but can I keep it reliable reliable, but can I keep it reliable while changing more of the system.

I'm working on a website that kind of I'm working on a website that kind of where I try to list some of the agent where I try to list some of the agent where I try to list some of the agent enablement patterns that I described. I enablement patterns that I described. I enablement patterns that I described. I couldn't list them all within this time. couldn't list them all within this time. couldn't list them all within this time. Tell me what you're missing. I'm trying Tell me what you're missing. I'm trying Tell me what you're missing. I'm trying to source social kind of stories. So, if to source social kind of stories. So, if to source social kind of stories. So, if you have a story of how things are going you have a story of how things are going you have a story of how things are going in your organization, please tell me and in your organization, please tell me and in your organization, please tell me and I am happy to put on a link in there as I am happy to put on a link in there as I am happy to put on a link in there as well. well. well. And if you're interested in kind of the And if you're interested in kind of the And if you're interested in kind of the slides, happy to share those. And I slides, happy to share those. And I slides, happy to share those. And I think think think if there's one takeaway, it's not the if there's one takeaway, it's not the if there's one takeaway, it's not the solo player that will win the game. solo player that will win the game. solo player that will win the game. It's kind of like at the different It's kind of like at the different It's kind of like at the different levels how we improve our organizations. levels how we improve our organizations. levels how we improve our organizations. Thank you very very much for listening Thank you very very much for listening Thank you very very much for listening and and and I hope it was useful. I hope it was useful. I hope it was useful. >> [applause]