Kotlin 2026: Layoffs, AI, Google — Is the Golden Age Over? Jake Wharton Explains

I'm going to throw away a large subset I'm going to throw away a large subset of my engineers and I'm going to offload of my engineers and I'm going to offload of my engineers and I'm going to offload all of that work onto an LLM. all of that work onto an LLM. all of that work onto an LLM. >> What do you think about this shift? >> What do you think about this shift? >> What do you think about this shift? >> The whole LLM industry is propped up on >> The whole LLM industry is propped up on >> The whole LLM industry is propped up on VC money, subsidize usage, addict users, VC money, subsidize usage, addict users, VC money, subsidize usage, addict users, switch to value extraction. Like that is switch to value extraction. Like that is switch to value extraction. Like that is the playbook. Coinbase CEO cut 14% of the playbook. Coinbase CEO cut 14% of the playbook. Coinbase CEO cut 14% of stuff and referred to AI. stuff and referred to AI. stuff and referred to AI. >> Not that bad. After I left cash, they >> Not that bad. After I left cash, they >> Not that bad. After I left cash, they got rid of 70% of engineers. got rid of 70% of engineers. got rid of 70% of engineers. >> Is Scotland a career advantage? >> Is Scotland a career advantage? >> Is Scotland a career advantage? >> I'm not so sure it's an advantage >> I'm not so sure it's an advantage >> I'm not so sure it's an advantage anymore. I like anymore. I like anymore. I like Rust. I think code with AI agents. Rust. I think code with AI agents. Rust. I think code with AI agents. >> Never. What's your plan B if AI writes >> Never. What's your plan B if AI writes >> Never. What's your plan B if AI writes better code than you in 6 months? better code than you in 6 months? better code than you in 6 months? Probably we'll just keep Probably we'll just keep Probably we'll just keep >> Jake Wharton. In 2010, Java was the >> Jake Wharton. In 2010, Java was the >> Jake Wharton. In 2010, Java was the number one programming language in the number one programming language in the number one programming language in the world. Android run on Java. Did brains world. Android run on Java. Did brains world. Android run on Java. Did brains build Scotland to compete with it? Why build Scotland to compete with it? Why build Scotland to compete with it? Why even try? even try? even try? >> Cotlin really came in at a time when the >> Cotlin really came in at a time when the >> Cotlin really came in at a time when the Java language it was a little stagnant.

Java language it was a little stagnant. Java language it was a little stagnant. Oracle was transitioning into Oracle was transitioning into Oracle was transitioning into stewardship of the language. The release stewardship of the language. The release stewardship of the language. The release times were still 2 years in between and times were still 2 years in between and times were still 2 years in between and um the team at Google was sort of stuck um the team at Google was sort of stuck um the team at Google was sort of stuck relying on you know what the Java relying on you know what the Java relying on you know what the Java language provided. And so there was this language provided. And so there was this language provided. And so there was this opportunity for someone to come in. And opportunity for someone to come in. And opportunity for someone to come in. And at the time the community was looking at at the time the community was looking at at the time the community was looking at alternative languages. There were people alternative languages. There were people alternative languages. There were people using Scala or people trying to use using Scala or people trying to use using Scala or people trying to use Groovy. Uh and Colin really came in at a Groovy. Uh and Colin really came in at a Groovy. Uh and Colin really came in at a time when there was this thirst for just time when there was this thirst for just time when there was this thirst for just something that was more modern. As these something that was more modern. As these something that was more modern. As these other languages were evolving outside of other languages were evolving outside of other languages were evolving outside of the Java ecosystem, you saw a bunch of the Java ecosystem, you saw a bunch of the Java ecosystem, you saw a bunch of things that were desirable. And then things that were desirable. And then things that were desirable. And then obviously um you know being a tooling obviously um you know being a tooling obviously um you know being a tooling company being able to deliver a new company being able to deliver a new company being able to deliver a new language with the the IDE and all the language with the the IDE and all the language with the the IDE and all the infrastructure around it um just really infrastructure around it um just really infrastructure around it um just really made it an easy cell or an easier cell made it an easy cell or an easier cell made it an easy cell or an easier cell than something that had to you know than something that had to you know than something that had to you know bootstrap itself from nothing. Uh and bootstrap itself from nothing. Uh and bootstrap itself from nothing. Uh and also being able to leverage the existing also being able to leverage the existing also being able to leverage the existing ecosystem. You didn't have to throw away ecosystem. You didn't have to throw away ecosystem. You didn't have to throw away that existing you know Java library or that existing you know Java library or that existing you know Java library or even your entire Java codebase that you even your entire Java codebase that you even your entire Java codebase that you already had. you were able to gradually already had. you were able to gradually already had. you were able to gradually introduce it and migrate, use the introduce it and migrate, use the introduce it and migrate, use the libraries you already knew and then over libraries you already knew and then over libraries you already knew and then over time sort of adopt incrementally.

time sort of adopt incrementally. time sort of adopt incrementally. >> Jake Wharton, Android developer and >> Jake Wharton, Android developer and >> Jake Wharton, Android developer and author of Retrofit and OKH HTTP, brought author of Retrofit and OKH HTTP, brought author of Retrofit and OKH HTTP, brought Cotlin to Android, quit his big tech job Cotlin to Android, quit his big tech job Cotlin to Android, quit his big tech job in 2025 during massive tech layoffs in 2025 during massive tech layoffs in 2025 during massive tech layoffs publicly against AI. publicly against AI. publicly against AI. >> In 2017, Google announced Scotland as >> In 2017, Google announced Scotland as >> In 2017, Google announced Scotland as one of the official Android languages. one of the official Android languages. one of the official Android languages. you became the first engineer on the you became the first engineer on the you became the first engineer on the cotlin team at Google. How did that cotlin team at Google. How did that cotlin team at Google. How did that happen? happen? happen? >> So at the time I had worked at square >> So at the time I had worked at square >> So at the time I had worked at square for five or six years and we had adopted for five or six years and we had adopted for five or six years and we had adopted cotlin about 3 years prior. Uh and I had cotlin about 3 years prior. Uh and I had cotlin about 3 years prior. Uh and I had written a document that basically written a document that basically written a document that basically justified why we should use cotlin at justified why we should use cotlin at justified why we should use cotlin at the company in order to get it approved. the company in order to get it approved. the company in order to get it approved. Uh and I made that doc public because Uh and I made that doc public because Uh and I made that doc public because there was you know nothing specific to there was you know nothing specific to there was you know nothing specific to our use case about it. it was sort of a our use case about it. it was sort of a our use case about it. it was sort of a general argument for the language and general argument for the language and general argument for the language and that really bolstered a bunch of um that really bolstered a bunch of um that really bolstered a bunch of um interest I would say in the Android interest I would say in the Android interest I would say in the Android community and I I sort of just became uh community and I I sort of just became uh community and I I sort of just became uh this person that was really involved in this person that was really involved in this person that was really involved in the the ongoings of the language and the the ongoings of the language and the the ongoings of the language and sort of evangelizing its use and as the sort of evangelizing its use and as the sort of evangelizing its use and as the interest grew and as the members that interest grew and as the members that interest grew and as the members that were at Google also you know realized were at Google also you know realized were at Google also you know realized that Cotlin was this thing that could be that Cotlin was this thing that could be that Cotlin was this thing that could be potentially really beneficial.

potentially really beneficial. potentially really beneficial. The people that I knew were sort of The people that I knew were sort of The people that I knew were sort of hinting to me that, you know, this was hinting to me that, you know, this was hinting to me that, you know, this was potentially going to be a thing and potentially going to be a thing and potentially going to be a thing and would it be something that that I was would it be something that that I was would it be something that that I was interested in. And I mean, I can think interested in. And I mean, I can think interested in. And I mean, I can think of no sort of greater recognition of, of no sort of greater recognition of, of no sort of greater recognition of, you know, the idea of introducing Cotlin you know, the idea of introducing Cotlin you know, the idea of introducing Cotlin than going to the company that's, you than going to the company that's, you than going to the company that's, you know, providing the tooling for all of know, providing the tooling for all of know, providing the tooling for all of Android and and turning that language Android and and turning that language Android and and turning that language into the thing that's, you know, now the into the thing that's, you know, now the into the thing that's, you know, now the first party, you know, official thing. first party, you know, official thing. first party, you know, official thing. So it was an opportunity that was So it was an opportunity that was So it was an opportunity that was impossible to pass up. impossible to pass up. impossible to pass up. >> But uh was there any push back from the >> But uh was there any push back from the >> But uh was there any push back from the Android team about adopting Cotlin? Android team about adopting Cotlin? Android team about adopting Cotlin? There was certainly a hesitancy I would There was certainly a hesitancy I would There was certainly a hesitancy I would say from the Android team to you know go say from the Android team to you know go say from the Android team to you know go from something that you've been built on from something that you've been built on from something that you've been built on for you know 10ish 12ish years at that for you know 10ish 12ish years at that for you know 10ish 12ish years at that time that you sort of really know and time that you sort of really know and time that you sort of really know and have uh integrations with throughout the have uh integrations with throughout the have uh integrations with throughout the whole stack to adopting something that's whole stack to adopting something that's whole stack to adopting something that's new relatively unproven. Uh I mean it it new relatively unproven. Uh I mean it it new relatively unproven. Uh I mean it it had only really stabilized maybe a year had only really stabilized maybe a year had only really stabilized maybe a year or two prior. Um, so yeah, there there or two prior. Um, so yeah, there there or two prior. Um, so yeah, there there were risks and apprehensions and I think were risks and apprehensions and I think were risks and apprehensions and I think you know as a company as you know Google you know as a company as you know Google you know as a company as you know Google they're not entirely riskaverse but they they're not entirely riskaverse but they they're not entirely riskaverse but they wanted to make sure that their bases wanted to make sure that their bases wanted to make sure that their bases covered and so like the way that it was covered and so like the way that it was covered and so like the way that it was introduced was very thoughtful. Um it introduced was very thoughtful. Um it introduced was very thoughtful. Um it wasn't a hard switch. It wasn't this is wasn't a hard switch. It wasn't this is wasn't a hard switch. It wasn't this is the new thing overnight. It was the new thing overnight. It was the new thing overnight. It was incrementally adopted. um the the incrementally adopted. um the the incrementally adopted. um the the libraries and stuff that they published libraries and stuff that they published libraries and stuff that they published you know we built sibling libraries for you know we built sibling libraries for you know we built sibling libraries for cotlin initially long before rewriting

cotlin initially long before rewriting cotlin initially long before rewriting any of the Java based ones in cotlin and any of the Java based ones in cotlin and any of the Java based ones in cotlin and um the same with the you know it's um the same with the you know it's um the same with the you know it's almost again a testament to the language almost again a testament to the language almost again a testament to the language how it really honors its Java legacy how it really honors its Java legacy how it really honors its Java legacy that that that the people integrating it into their the people integrating it into their the people integrating it into their code bases didn't have to flip overnight code bases didn't have to flip overnight code bases didn't have to flip overnight >> where is Scotland used beyond Android >> where is Scotland used beyond Android >> where is Scotland used beyond Android >> the first uh couple years I think >> the first uh couple years I think >> the first uh couple years I think because of the the ground swell of because of the the ground swell of because of the the ground swell of support for cotlin in the Android support for cotlin in the Android support for cotlin in the Android community. There was this false community. There was this false community. There was this false association that this is like uh you association that this is like uh you association that this is like uh you know a language just for Android. There know a language just for Android. There know a language just for Android. There there were even articles at the time there were even articles at the time there were even articles at the time that it was a language built by Google that it was a language built by Google that it was a language built by Google for Android just you know which is for Android just you know which is for Android just you know which is obviously not true. Thankfully in the obviously not true. Thankfully in the obviously not true. Thankfully in the time since um there's been a lot more time since um there's been a lot more time since um there's been a lot more adoption for you know where you would adoption for you know where you would adoption for you know where you would see like backend services you know that see like backend services you know that see like backend services you know that otherwise would be written in Java now otherwise would be written in Java now otherwise would be written in Java now or cotlin you have companies like spring or cotlin you have companies like spring or cotlin you have companies like spring and all of their offerings are now you and all of their offerings are now you and all of their offerings are now you know much of it is cotlin first other know much of it is cotlin first other know much of it is cotlin first other than that yeah I mean jet brains is than that yeah I mean jet brains is than that yeah I mean jet brains is really pushing on the multiplatform really pushing on the multiplatform really pushing on the multiplatform story so you can see it a little bit on story so you can see it a little bit on story so you can see it a little bit on iOS and um you know there's applications iOS and um you know there's applications iOS and um you know there's applications nowadays that are built for desktop for nowadays that are built for desktop for nowadays that are built for desktop for Cotlin the the Jet Brains toolbox Cotlin the the Jet Brains toolbox Cotlin the the Jet Brains toolbox probably being one of the most used the probably being one of the most used the probably being one of the most used the the way that you get your your idees. I the way that you get your your idees. I the way that you get your your idees. I feel like um while the Android thing was feel like um while the Android thing was feel like um while the Android thing was really early uh it sort of helped seed really early uh it sort of helped seed really early uh it sort of helped seed it in these other you know just a it in these other you know just a it in these other you know just a concrete example at you at Square all of concrete example at you at Square all of concrete example at you at Square all of our backend services were in Java and

our backend services were in Java and our backend services were in Java and when we got Cotlin approved for Android when we got Cotlin approved for Android when we got Cotlin approved for Android it was it was only for Android. we had it was it was only for Android. we had it was it was only for Android. we had this excitement using it and our Java this excitement using it and our Java this excitement using it and our Java you know companions on the back end you know companions on the back end you know companions on the back end would see us being excited about this would see us being excited about this would see us being excited about this and and want to start using it and over and and want to start using it and over and and want to start using it and over time yeah it became approved for them time yeah it became approved for them time yeah it became approved for them and they you know were able to use it as and they you know were able to use it as and they you know were able to use it as well and I feel like the Android thing well and I feel like the Android thing well and I feel like the Android thing has sort of just been a catalyst for has sort of just been a catalyst for has sort of just been a catalyst for some of these other other ecosystems to some of these other other ecosystems to some of these other other ecosystems to start start using it start start using it start start using it >> now I have a task for you pitch Kotlin >> now I have a task for you pitch Kotlin >> now I have a task for you pitch Kotlin to a Java developer in 60 seconds to a Java developer in 60 seconds to a Java developer in 60 seconds >> I Colin is really what Java wants to be >> I Colin is really what Java wants to be >> I Colin is really what Java wants to be in maybe 10 years but because they in maybe 10 years but because they in maybe 10 years but because they because Java has doesn't have the because Java has doesn't have the because Java has doesn't have the ability to break existing code uh there ability to break existing code uh there ability to break existing code uh there takes them a really long time to evolve takes them a really long time to evolve takes them a really long time to evolve the language and so all of the things the language and so all of the things the language and so all of the things that eventually will likely end up in in that eventually will likely end up in in that eventually will likely end up in in Java are are already available today in Java are are already available today in Java are are already available today in cotlin and uh you don't have to be using cotlin and uh you don't have to be using cotlin and uh you don't have to be using the latest and greatest. So, you know, the latest and greatest. So, you know, the latest and greatest. So, you know, as much as we like people on the newest as much as we like people on the newest as much as we like people on the newest versions of the JVM, um there's versions of the JVM, um there's versions of the JVM, um there's certainly code bases out there that are certainly code bases out there that are certainly code bases out there that are still Java 8 and Java 11, and Colin still Java 8 and Java 11, and Colin still Java 8 and Java 11, and Colin honors that. Uh it gives you all these honors that. Uh it gives you all these honors that. Uh it gives you all these modern features while still targeting, modern features while still targeting, modern features while still targeting, you know, potentially older older you know, potentially older older you know, potentially older older versions of the JVM.

versions of the JVM. versions of the JVM. >> What are the biggest companies using in >> What are the biggest companies using in >> What are the biggest companies using in production right now? production right now? production right now? >> Facebook, Google, Amazon. um the >> Facebook, Google, Amazon. um the >> Facebook, Google, Amazon. um the certainly on the mobile side first, but certainly on the mobile side first, but certainly on the mobile side first, but definitely now on the the backend definitely now on the the backend definitely now on the the backend services and stuff they're building. You services and stuff they're building. You services and stuff they're building. You see them working on a lot of tooling, see them working on a lot of tooling, see them working on a lot of tooling, you know, uh just this week as we're you know, uh just this week as we're you know, uh just this week as we're recording this, Facebook is contributing recording this, Facebook is contributing recording this, Facebook is contributing their Cotlin formatter to the Cotlin their Cotlin formatter to the Cotlin their Cotlin formatter to the Cotlin Foundation to eventually be the first Foundation to eventually be the first Foundation to eventually be the first party cotlin formatter. So yeah, I mean party cotlin formatter. So yeah, I mean party cotlin formatter. So yeah, I mean those are the biggest code bases in the those are the biggest code bases in the those are the biggest code bases in the world probably and uh you know the fact world probably and uh you know the fact world probably and uh you know the fact that you can transition them from that you can transition them from that you can transition them from another language to to have in cotlin is another language to to have in cotlin is another language to to have in cotlin is uh yeah it's you know it's really a uh yeah it's you know it's really a uh yeah it's you know it's really a testament to the to the language and testament to the to the language and testament to the to the language and their investment in it long term. Google their investment in it long term. Google their investment in it long term. Google the dream job for many engineers and one the dream job for many engineers and one the dream job for many engineers and one of the biggest adopters of what you left of the biggest adopters of what you left of the biggest adopters of what you left after two years and nine months. Why? after two years and nine months. Why? after two years and nine months. Why? >> I was at Cash App at the time. We we we >> I was at Cash App at the time. We we we >> I was at Cash App at the time. We we we did this whole thing with Cotlin where did this whole thing with Cotlin where did this whole thing with Cotlin where we we got it adopted. We wrote a bunch we we got it adopted. We wrote a bunch we we got it adopted. We wrote a bunch of open source libraries in Cotlin and of open source libraries in Cotlin and of open source libraries in Cotlin and you know the the Google adopting Cotlin you know the the Google adopting Cotlin you know the the Google adopting Cotlin for Android happened and it was it was for Android happened and it was it was for Android happened and it was it was too good of an opportunity to pass up to too good of an opportunity to pass up to too good of an opportunity to pass up to to go to Google to do that. But when I to go to Google to do that. But when I to go to Google to do that. But when I left I I basically said that I'm going left I I basically said that I'm going left I I basically said that I'm going to be out of the office for about 2 to be out of the office for about 2 to be out of the office for about 2 years because I planned to go to do this years because I planned to go to do this years because I planned to go to do this thing make make Cotlin you know the thing make make Cotlin you know the thing make make Cotlin you know the first first party language on Android first first party language on Android first first party language on Android and then as much as I like working on

and then as much as I like working on and then as much as I like working on tools and libraries I don't only want to tools and libraries I don't only want to tools and libraries I don't only want to work on tools and like I want to use the work on tools and like I want to use the work on tools and like I want to use the things that I build and so the idea was things that I build and so the idea was things that I build and so the idea was to go you know do as much as I can in to go you know do as much as I can in to go you know do as much as I can in two years get get the language to be two years get get the language to be two years get get the language to be successful get it to be the first party successful get it to be the first party successful get it to be the first party thing so that you know I know I can rely thing so that you know I know I can rely thing so that you know I know I can rely on it in the future and then flip back on it in the future and then flip back on it in the future and then flip back and use use the things that you know and use use the things that you know and use use the things that you know that I built at Google. And so yeah, that I built at Google. And so yeah, that I built at Google. And so yeah, when two years came around, I was when two years came around, I was when two years came around, I was planning on leaving and switching back. planning on leaving and switching back. planning on leaving and switching back. And um right at the very end when I was And um right at the very end when I was And um right at the very end when I was going to actually put in my my notice to going to actually put in my my notice to going to actually put in my my notice to leave, I they approved another project leave, I they approved another project leave, I they approved another project that I really wanted to do. And so I that I really wanted to do. And so I that I really wanted to do. And so I stayed I stayed an extra 9 months and stayed I stayed an extra 9 months and stayed I stayed an extra 9 months and and worked on that. And but yeah, and worked on that. And but yeah, and worked on that. And but yeah, ultimately I just um I want to build ultimately I just um I want to build ultimately I just um I want to build things with the tools and libraries, not things with the tools and libraries, not things with the tools and libraries, not just build tools and libraries. So I had just build tools and libraries. So I had just build tools and libraries. So I had I had to go back to working on something I had to go back to working on something I had to go back to working on something where I got to, you know, reap the where I got to, you know, reap the where I got to, you know, reap the benefits of of that investment. So yeah, benefits of of that investment. So yeah, benefits of of that investment. So yeah, there's there's a lot to like about there's there's a lot to like about there's there's a lot to like about working at Google. There's also things working at Google. There's also things working at Google. There's also things to dislike. Um, but I feel like I to dislike. Um, but I feel like I to dislike. Um, but I feel like I accomplished my goal and then yeah, had accomplished my goal and then yeah, had accomplished my goal and then yeah, had to had to go back and and use the thing to had to go back and and use the thing to had to go back and and use the thing that I built.

that I built. that I built. >> Sorry, but things to dislike. What do >> Sorry, but things to dislike. What do >> Sorry, but things to dislike. What do you mean? you mean? you mean? >> You know, it's a very big company. Um, >> You know, it's a very big company. Um, >> You know, it's a very big company. Um, Android is thankfully relatively Android is thankfully relatively Android is thankfully relatively isolated from, you know, the the isolated from, you know, the the isolated from, you know, the the products of Google. And so I feel like products of Google. And so I feel like products of Google. And so I feel like um and I worked with really great people um and I worked with really great people um and I worked with really great people there. That that stuff was all great. there. That that stuff was all great. there. That that stuff was all great. Um, I have lots of issues with Google as Um, I have lots of issues with Google as Um, I have lots of issues with Google as a company, the way that they can lock a company, the way that they can lock a company, the way that they can lock you into their products and services and you into their products and services and you into their products and services and but yeah, um, I mean the Android team is but yeah, um, I mean the Android team is but yeah, um, I mean the Android team is fantastic. I I do miss working on that fantastic. I I do miss working on that fantastic. I I do miss working on that stuff. After 5 years at Kashop, November stuff. After 5 years at Kashop, November stuff. After 5 years at Kashop, November 2025, in the middle of massive layoffs, 2025, in the middle of massive layoffs, 2025, in the middle of massive layoffs, crisis of tech industry, you left. How crisis of tech industry, you left. How crisis of tech industry, you left. How hard was it to find a new job? hard was it to find a new job? hard was it to find a new job? >> So, it wasn't the easiest thing. There >> So, it wasn't the easiest thing. There >> So, it wasn't the easiest thing. There certainly are jobs out there. I certainly are jobs out there. I certainly are jobs out there. I was a little picky. I would say I had was a little picky. I would say I had was a little picky. I would say I had some requirements of, you know, the some requirements of, you know, the some requirements of, you know, the place that I wanted to end up. I was place that I wanted to end up. I was place that I wanted to end up. I was fortunate enough to leave voluntarily, fortunate enough to leave voluntarily, fortunate enough to leave voluntarily, you know, on my own terms. And so there you know, on my own terms. And so there you know, on my own terms. And so there wasn't wasn't wasn't an intense urgency. Uh I wasn't I wasn't an intense urgency. Uh I wasn't I wasn't an intense urgency. Uh I wasn't I wasn't immediately desperate. There definitely immediately desperate. There definitely immediately desperate. There definitely are jobs out there still, but um yeah, are jobs out there still, but um yeah, are jobs out there still, but um yeah, it's not uh it's not uh it's not uh it's certainly not like it was five it's certainly not like it was five it's certainly not like it was five years ago when, you know, anyone walking years ago when, you know, anyone walking years ago when, you know, anyone walking off the street could get snatched up and off the street could get snatched up and off the street could get snatched up and make a ridiculous amount of money as a make a ridiculous amount of money as a make a ridiculous amount of money as a as an Android developer. So, um it as an Android developer. So, um it as an Android developer. So, um it required a little more effort on my part required a little more effort on my part required a little more effort on my part and I absolutely sympathize with the and I absolutely sympathize with the and I absolutely sympathize with the people who were, you know, forced into

people who were, you know, forced into people who were, you know, forced into this situation of having to look for a this situation of having to look for a this situation of having to look for a new job. But I mean I don't think like new job. But I mean I don't think like new job. But I mean I don't think like the the bottom has completely fallen the the bottom has completely fallen the the bottom has completely fallen out. So there the jobs are still there out. So there the jobs are still there out. So there the jobs are still there and you know it takes a little more time and you know it takes a little more time and you know it takes a little more time and you have to find ways to and you have to find ways to and you have to find ways to differentiate yourself but um yeah differentiate yourself but um yeah differentiate yourself but um yeah they're they're there. they're they're there. they're they're there. >> What's the realistic salary range for a >> What's the realistic salary range for a >> What's the realistic salary range for a senior cotland engineer in the US right senior cotland engineer in the US right senior cotland engineer in the US right now? now? now? >> Generally what I see is um you know a >> Generally what I see is um you know a >> Generally what I see is um you know a 200,000 sort of and up range. Uh and 200,000 sort of and up range. Uh and 200,000 sort of and up range. Uh and then that's usually offset with some then that's usually offset with some then that's usually offset with some amount of equity. Um maybe a h 100,000 a amount of equity. Um maybe a h 100,000 a amount of equity. Um maybe a h 100,000 a year in equity. Uh you know spread over year in equity. Uh you know spread over year in equity. Uh you know spread over four years with the whole vesting thing. four years with the whole vesting thing. four years with the whole vesting thing. Um there's definitely a lot under that. Um there's definitely a lot under that. Um there's definitely a lot under that. Um, I think also because just in general Um, I think also because just in general Um, I think also because just in general companies are a little more mindful companies are a little more mindful companies are a little more mindful about, you know, where where their money about, you know, where where their money about, you know, where where their money is going and uh they're not paying is going and uh they're not paying is going and uh they're not paying exorbitant rates anymore. Or otherwise, exorbitant rates anymore. Or otherwise, exorbitant rates anymore. Or otherwise, if you really want those numbers to be if you really want those numbers to be if you really want those numbers to be higher, you have to go to something higher, you have to go to something higher, you have to go to something that's a little more, you know, that's a little more, you know, that's a little more, you know, lucrative where where the potential is lucrative where where the potential is lucrative where where the potential is very high, but the risk is also very very high, but the risk is also very very high, but the risk is also very high. So, you know, obviously right now high. So, you know, obviously right now high. So, you know, obviously right now we're in a particular time when there's we're in a particular time when there's we're in a particular time when there's a very specific technology that has a very specific technology that has a very specific technology that has everyone's focus and you can find those everyone's focus and you can find those everyone's focus and you can find those kind of jobs that will probably pay you kind of jobs that will probably pay you kind of jobs that will probably pay you much more than that. Um, probably, you much more than that. Um, probably, you much more than that. Um, probably, you know, in cash and in equity. Um, but

know, in cash and in equity. Um, but know, in cash and in equity. Um, but that equity could go to zero. Um, or it that equity could go to zero. Um, or it that equity could go to zero. Um, or it could, you know, 10 it could 10x. Uh so could, you know, 10 it could 10x. Uh so could, you know, 10 it could 10x. Uh so yeah it becomes uh it really becomes an yeah it becomes uh it really becomes an yeah it becomes uh it really becomes an individual choice about what where you individual choice about what where you individual choice about what where you are in your life. You know what's the are in your life. You know what's the are in your life. You know what's the level of risk that you can tolerate. So level of risk that you can tolerate. So level of risk that you can tolerate. So uh I I'm at the point in my life where I uh I I'm at the point in my life where I uh I I'm at the point in my life where I don't want to make those bets. I'd don't want to make those bets. I'd don't want to make those bets. I'd rather just have the the consistent you rather just have the the consistent you rather just have the the consistent you know steady cashbased know steady cashbased know steady cashbased salary. And it was the complete opposite salary. And it was the complete opposite salary. And it was the complete opposite when I was younger. I was perfectly when I was younger. I was perfectly when I was younger. I was perfectly happy to take you know take that risk. happy to take you know take that risk. happy to take you know take that risk. Uh, and you win some, you lose some. Um, Uh, and you win some, you lose some. Um, Uh, and you win some, you lose some. Um, but then yeah, you know, as you as your but then yeah, you know, as you as your but then yeah, you know, as you as your life circumstances change, I guess it's life circumstances change, I guess it's life circumstances change, I guess it's really what what you value as the thing really what what you value as the thing really what what you value as the thing that's that's more important for you. that's that's more important for you. that's that's more important for you. >> In 2026, is Scotland a career advantage >> In 2026, is Scotland a career advantage >> In 2026, is Scotland a career advantage for software engineers? for software engineers? for software engineers? >> I'm not so sure it's an advantage >> I'm not so sure it's an advantage >> I'm not so sure it's an advantage anymore. um which is almost you know the anymore. um which is almost you know the anymore. um which is almost you know the success of the language reflecting on success of the language reflecting on success of the language reflecting on it's sort of like just an expectation at it's sort of like just an expectation at it's sort of like just an expectation at this point it's it's not a this point it's it's not a this point it's it's not a differentiator differentiator differentiator uh it's not a thing that is is is rare uh it's not a thing that is is is rare uh it's not a thing that is is is rare or all that hard to find uh and that or all that hard to find uh and that or all that hard to find uh and that really is because Google adopted it and really is because Google adopted it and really is because Google adopted it and made it the first party language and so made it the first party language and so made it the first party language and so it's the thing that the thing that you it's the thing that the thing that you it's the thing that the thing that you learn if you're going into Android uh learn if you're going into Android uh learn if you're going into Android uh you you just learn cotlin and then it's you you just learn cotlin and then it's you you just learn cotlin and then it's it's a thing you're expected to already it's a thing you're expected to already it's a thing you're expected to already have as you know someone that's coming have as you know someone that's coming have as you know someone that's coming into that that market because that's now into that that market because that's now into that that market because that's now what what everyone is doing in the same

what what everyone is doing in the same what what everyone is doing in the same way that you know compose UI is the way that you know compose UI is the way that you know compose UI is the thing that maybe four years ago was a thing that maybe four years ago was a thing that maybe four years ago was a little more rare and nowadays is sort of little more rare and nowadays is sort of little more rare and nowadays is sort of it's just the default requirement so it's just the default requirement so it's just the default requirement so yeah I unless you're yeah I unless you're yeah I unless you're using a little more of the language so using a little more of the language so using a little more of the language so like the multiplatform features or like the multiplatform features or like the multiplatform features or something that that then becomes an something that that then becomes an something that that then becomes an advantage a differentiator uh thing that advantage a differentiator uh thing that advantage a differentiator uh thing that might set you apart from you know all might set you apart from you know all might set you apart from you know all the other Cotlin developers that are the other Cotlin developers that are the other Cotlin developers that are that are out there but um I don't think that are out there but um I don't think that are out there but um I don't think it's that big of a it's it's more like a it's that big of a it's it's more like a it's that big of a it's it's more like a a ubiquity you know thing at this point a ubiquity you know thing at this point a ubiquity you know thing at this point it's it's everywhere when you were it's it's everywhere when you were it's it's everywhere when you were looking for a job you published nine looking for a job you published nine looking for a job you published nine values for your future employer I'll values for your future employer I'll values for your future employer I'll read them and you tell me what they mean read them and you tell me what they mean read them and you tell me what they mean and why they are important to you know and why they are important to you know and why they are important to you know AI no AI companies AI based products or AI no AI companies AI based products or AI no AI companies AI based products or forced AI usage for development. forced AI usage for development. forced AI usage for development. >> Yeah. Uh it's first for a reason. It was >> Yeah. Uh it's first for a reason. It was >> Yeah. Uh it's first for a reason. It was probably the thing that I was looking probably the thing that I was looking probably the thing that I was looking for most.

for most. for most. We're in this time where We're in this time where We're in this time where things are changing rapidly. things are changing rapidly. things are changing rapidly. um both from a development perspective, um both from a development perspective, um both from a development perspective, but then also the way that these but then also the way that these but then also the way that these companies are companies are companies are just really forcing AI, you know, LLMs just really forcing AI, you know, LLMs just really forcing AI, you know, LLMs basically, uh into places where they basically, uh into places where they basically, uh into places where they otherwise probably shouldn't exist. Um, otherwise probably shouldn't exist. Um, otherwise probably shouldn't exist. Um, you know, I don't think anyone really you know, I don't think anyone really you know, I don't think anyone really feels like software quality is going up feels like software quality is going up feels like software quality is going up uh over the last couple years and I uh over the last couple years and I uh over the last couple years and I don't feel like this is a tool that's don't feel like this is a tool that's don't feel like this is a tool that's going to contribute to software quality going to contribute to software quality going to contribute to software quality over time. Um it sort of looks that way over time. Um it sort of looks that way over time. Um it sort of looks that way to certain executives, you know, higher to certain executives, you know, higher to certain executives, you know, higher ups in these companies where they think ups in these companies where they think ups in these companies where they think this will be a thing that allows our this will be a thing that allows our this will be a thing that allows our engineers to work faster, produce higher engineers to work faster, produce higher engineers to work faster, produce higher quality code, etc. Um I think it's quality code, etc. Um I think it's quality code, etc. Um I think it's actually the opposite. And so then actually the opposite. And so then actually the opposite. And so then there's this whole other thing about the there's this whole other thing about the there's this whole other thing about the the ethics behind the tools. Um they're the ethics behind the tools. Um they're the ethics behind the tools. Um they're basically built on the largest copyright basically built on the largest copyright basically built on the largest copyright infringement in history. Um you can infringement in history. Um you can infringement in history. Um you can pretty much draw a straight line from pretty much draw a straight line from pretty much draw a straight line from Aaron Schwarz who ex you know downloaded Aaron Schwarz who ex you know downloaded Aaron Schwarz who ex you know downloaded all this scientific data like 30 gigs of all this scientific data like 30 gigs of all this scientific data like 30 gigs of scientific data scientific data scientific data um and was facing decades of jail time um and was facing decades of jail time um and was facing decades of jail time for this uh 2013 or something. and I

for this uh 2013 or something. and I for this uh 2013 or something. and I can't remember exactly when it was and can't remember exactly when it was and can't remember exactly when it was and he ultimately took his own life from he ultimately took his own life from he ultimately took his own life from that copyright infringement, you know, that copyright infringement, you know, that copyright infringement, you know, claim that they were bringing against claim that they were bringing against claim that they were bringing against him. And you fast forward to now the way him. And you fast forward to now the way him. And you fast forward to now the way that these models are being trained is that these models are being trained is that these models are being trained is they're essentially ignoring artist they're essentially ignoring artist they're essentially ignoring artist copyright. They're ignoring the licenses copyright. They're ignoring the licenses copyright. They're ignoring the licenses of code that exists. Just because you of code that exists. Just because you of code that exists. Just because you can get access to something doesn't mean can get access to something doesn't mean can get access to something doesn't mean you have the rights to be able to, you you have the rights to be able to, you you have the rights to be able to, you know, remix it and reimagine and in some know, remix it and reimagine and in some know, remix it and reimagine and in some cases, you know, spit back out verbatim cases, you know, spit back out verbatim cases, you know, spit back out verbatim these things that you've ingested. And these things that you've ingested. And these things that you've ingested. And you try and take, you know, we've seen you try and take, you know, we've seen you try and take, you know, we've seen like the news that Facebook was using like the news that Facebook was using like the news that Facebook was using like Bit Torrent to download millions of like Bit Torrent to download millions of like Bit Torrent to download millions of books and, you know, terabytes of of books and, you know, terabytes of of books and, you know, terabytes of of data. Uh and you know in 15 years we've data. Uh and you know in 15 years we've data. Uh and you know in 15 years we've gone from gone from gone from from that from the Aaron Schwarz from that from the Aaron Schwarz from that from the Aaron Schwarz incident to to these companies who incident to to these companies who incident to to these companies who ethics just seem to not even be remotely ethics just seem to not even be remotely ethics just seem to not even be remotely in the the realm of what they consider in the the realm of what they consider in the the realm of what they consider as something that you know is valuable as something that you know is valuable as something that you know is valuable to them. And so I don't want to be to them. And so I don't want to be to them. And so I don't want to be associated with with those things. And associated with with those things. And associated with with those things. And it's hard like it's becoming harder and it's hard like it's becoming harder and it's hard like it's becoming harder and harder to find ways to avoid that. And harder to find ways to avoid that. And harder to find ways to avoid that. And so yeah, that was first for a reason and so yeah, that was first for a reason and so yeah, that was first for a reason and it immediately rejected a lot of uh a it immediately rejected a lot of uh a it immediately rejected a lot of uh a lot of places and it's also a direct lot of places and it's also a direct lot of places and it's also a direct reflection of where I left Square and reflection of where I left Square and reflection of where I left Square and Cash App where Cash App where Cash App where in the weirdest way, you know, you think in the weirdest way, you know, you think in the weirdest way, you know, you think of like um the tools that we use

of like um the tools that we use of like um the tools that we use day-to-day uh it's often like another day-to-day uh it's often like another day-to-day uh it's often like another engineer is excited about, you know, engineer is excited about, you know, engineer is excited about, you know, this new language cotlin or this new IDE this new language cotlin or this new IDE this new language cotlin or this new IDE Intelligj or this new build system and Intelligj or this new build system and Intelligj or this new build system and it's this very engineer-led thing where it's this very engineer-led thing where it's this very engineer-led thing where you just get excited about something and you just get excited about something and you just get excited about something and it becomes infectious and then you go it becomes infectious and then you go it becomes infectious and then you go and you like beg your you know your and you like beg your you know your and you like beg your you know your engineering leaders to allow you to use engineering leaders to allow you to use engineering leaders to allow you to use cotlin or to switch to you know buy your cotlin or to switch to you know buy your cotlin or to switch to you know buy your Intelligj license or whatever. Why is Intelligj license or whatever. Why is Intelligj license or whatever. Why is this technology being done the opposite this technology being done the opposite this technology being done the opposite way? Why why should the CEO of a company way? Why why should the CEO of a company way? Why why should the CEO of a company be telling you how to do your day-to-day be telling you how to do your day-to-day be telling you how to do your day-to-day job and saying use this tool, right? job and saying use this tool, right? job and saying use this tool, right? like they don't come to you and say you like they don't come to you and say you like they don't come to you and say you should use a statically typed language should use a statically typed language should use a statically typed language because that allows us to model our because that allows us to model our because that allows us to model our business requirements in a way that the business requirements in a way that the business requirements in a way that the compiler can check. No, like you choose compiler can check. No, like you choose compiler can check. No, like you choose that uh that it's an engine that's an that uh that it's an engine that's an that uh that it's an engine that's an engineering decision. Why do you model engineering decision. Why do you model engineering decision. Why do you model null in the optionality in the language?

null in the optionality in the language? null in the optionality in the language? Why do you you know all these things we Why do you you know all these things we Why do you you know all these things we as engineers lead that because we know as engineers lead that because we know as engineers lead that because we know what the business requirements are going what the business requirements are going what the business requirements are going to be then we choose tools that allow us to be then we choose tools that allow us to be then we choose tools that allow us to effectively produce the thing that to effectively produce the thing that to effectively produce the thing that the business wants. If the business wants. If the business wants. If Jack Dorsey came to me and said you have Jack Dorsey came to me and said you have Jack Dorsey came to me and said you have to use Eclipse to use Eclipse to use Eclipse I probably also would have quit. Uh but I probably also would have quit. Uh but I probably also would have quit. Uh but yeah, when you're when the leadership of yeah, when you're when the leadership of yeah, when you're when the leadership of your company is forcing these tools upon your company is forcing these tools upon your company is forcing these tools upon you like and also of you know that in you like and also of you know that in you like and also of you know that in and of itself by by itself would be and of itself by by itself would be and of itself by by itself would be would be one thing but then when you would be one thing but then when you would be one thing but then when you couple that with recurring layoffs um it couple that with recurring layoffs um it couple that with recurring layoffs um it just doesn't look it doesn't look good. just doesn't look it doesn't look good. just doesn't look it doesn't look good. And so yeah, it's a thing that you know And so yeah, it's a thing that you know And so yeah, it's a thing that you know I can make a personal choice and say I can make a personal choice and say I can make a personal choice and say that I'm I'm not going to use these that I'm I'm not going to use these that I'm I'm not going to use these things. And in general, a a company things. And in general, a a company things. And in general, a a company that's going to be building those that's going to be building those that's going to be building those things, I think they're doing it as, you things, I think they're doing it as, you things, I think they're doing it as, you know, it's a it's a land grab, a cash know, it's a it's a land grab, a cash know, it's a it's a land grab, a cash grab. Like they're striking while the grab. Like they're striking while the grab. Like they're striking while the iron's hot. And like I can respect that iron's hot. And like I can respect that iron's hot. And like I can respect that as an approach. You you go where the as an approach. You you go where the as an approach. You you go where the money is. You go where the users are.

money is. You go where the users are. money is. You go where the users are. And right now that that's where it is. And right now that that's where it is. And right now that that's where it is. And this goes back to the salary thing And this goes back to the salary thing And this goes back to the salary thing where I'm in a fortuitous position. I where I'm in a fortuitous position. I where I'm in a fortuitous position. I have, you know, worked hard for a long have, you know, worked hard for a long have, you know, worked hard for a long period of time and I've earned the period of time and I've earned the period of time and I've earned the ability to choose where I want to go. A ability to choose where I want to go. A ability to choose where I want to go. A lot of people don't have that. And so, lot of people don't have that. And so, lot of people don't have that. And so, yeah, it's, you know, that list is is yeah, it's, you know, that list is is yeah, it's, you know, that list is is me. And AI was at the top because that's me. And AI was at the top because that's me. And AI was at the top because that's the thing that right now I value the the thing that right now I value the the thing that right now I value the most. And it immediately disqualified most. And it immediately disqualified most. And it immediately disqualified 80% of the potential places I probably 80% of the potential places I probably 80% of the potential places I probably could have gone. But yeah, I'm in the could have gone. But yeah, I'm in the could have gone. But yeah, I'm in the position thankfully that I can basically position thankfully that I can basically position thankfully that I can basically apply my values that that most important apply my values that that most important apply my values that that most important thing to that selection. Uh and yeah, thing to that selection. Uh and yeah, thing to that selection. Uh and yeah, it's it's harder and harder, but that's it's it's harder and harder, but that's it's it's harder and harder, but that's the one that I feel like um the one that I feel like um the one that I feel like um you know, draw drew the most attention. you know, draw drew the most attention. you know, draw drew the most attention. Uh it's immediately it's the most Uh it's immediately it's the most Uh it's immediately it's the most relevant thing in our in our industry relevant thing in our in our industry relevant thing in our in our industry right now. So yeah, that's why it's right now. So yeah, that's why it's right now. So yeah, that's why it's number one, too.

number one, too. number one, too. >> No, crypto. Cryptography is good, but >> No, crypto. Cryptography is good, but >> No, crypto. Cryptography is good, but cryptocurrencies are bad. As we go on cryptocurrencies are bad. As we go on cryptocurrencies are bad. As we go on this list, you can really draw parallels this list, you can really draw parallels this list, you can really draw parallels to where I came from. Uh, so before to where I came from. Uh, so before to where I came from. Uh, so before LLMs, it was cryptocurrencies. LLMs, it was cryptocurrencies. LLMs, it was cryptocurrencies. Uh, and at Square and at Cash, we, you Uh, and at Square and at Cash, we, you Uh, and at Square and at Cash, we, you know, again, we leaned very heavily into know, again, we leaned very heavily into know, again, we leaned very heavily into that. And that. And that. And it just, it's basically a Ponzi scheme, it just, it's basically a Ponzi scheme, it just, it's basically a Ponzi scheme, right? There's no real value. And I am right? There's no real value. And I am right? There's no real value. And I am it's almost the opposite of what you it's almost the opposite of what you it's almost the opposite of what you would expect from a lot of my other would expect from a lot of my other would expect from a lot of my other values about like ownership and not values about like ownership and not values about like ownership and not allowing other people to control you allowing other people to control you allowing other people to control you know the things that you earn like which know the things that you earn like which know the things that you earn like which I am totally on board with that. It's I am totally on board with that. It's I am totally on board with that. It's just the execution that's wrong. Um and just the execution that's wrong. Um and just the execution that's wrong. Um and it's a it has essentially turned into a it's a it has essentially turned into a it's a it has essentially turned into a predatory you know system where the only predatory you know system where the only predatory you know system where the only people making money are either people making money are either people making money are either the people who are suffering in others the people who are suffering in others the people who are suffering in others or the building businesses on top of it or the building businesses on top of it or the building businesses on top of it and then you know essentially extracting and then you know essentially extracting and then you know essentially extracting value from from their customers.

value from from their customers. value from from their customers. >> Remote work. I work remotely but happy >> Remote work. I work remotely but happy >> Remote work. I work remotely but happy to visit offices a couple of times each to visit offices a couple of times each to visit offices a couple of times each year. year. year. I've been remote since 2015. I've been remote since 2015. I've been remote since 2015. Uh, and Uh, and Uh, and it's one of those things where it's hard it's one of those things where it's hard it's one of those things where it's hard to go back. to go back. to go back. Um, I really like hanging out in person Um, I really like hanging out in person Um, I really like hanging out in person where we're recording this while there's where we're recording this while there's where we're recording this while there's a a conference going on where I get to a a conference going on where I get to a a conference going on where I get to see, you know, 50 people that I know and see, you know, 50 people that I know and see, you know, 50 people that I know and usually see maybe once or twice a year usually see maybe once or twice a year usually see maybe once or twice a year at best, if not multiple years in at best, if not multiple years in at best, if not multiple years in between. And so between. And so between. And so I still value the in person, the human I still value the in person, the human I still value the in person, the human interaction and building that, you know, interaction and building that, you know, interaction and building that, you know, empathy with people, but I don't want to empathy with people, but I don't want to empathy with people, but I don't want to sit in a car every day anymore. sit in a car every day anymore. sit in a car every day anymore. Uh the flexibility now that I have Uh the flexibility now that I have Uh the flexibility now that I have children, the flexibility to just come children, the flexibility to just come children, the flexibility to just come and go as you please and be able to and go as you please and be able to and go as you please and be able to adapt to your work to to, you know, adapt to your work to to, you know, adapt to your work to to, you know, what's going on in everyone else's what's going on in everyone else's what's going on in everyone else's lives. It's it's just it's so nice and I lives. It's it's just it's so nice and I lives. It's it's just it's so nice and I can't go back.

can't go back. can't go back. >> Open source. you use open-source >> Open source. you use open-source >> Open source. you use open-source software and you publish your own open software and you publish your own open software and you publish your own open source projects or want to start. source projects or want to start. source projects or want to start. >> I never really knew anything but open >> I never really knew anything but open >> I never really knew anything but open source because when I was trying to source because when I was trying to source because when I was trying to become a better developer, I turned to become a better developer, I turned to become a better developer, I turned to open source open source open source uh and to learn new technologies and all uh and to learn new technologies and all uh and to learn new technologies and all that. And so the default for me is if that. And so the default for me is if that. And so the default for me is if I'm trying something, I'm building I'm trying something, I'm building I'm trying something, I'm building something, I put it in the open. And something, I put it in the open. And something, I put it in the open. And then we had a lot of success ultimately then we had a lot of success ultimately then we had a lot of success ultimately when I ended up at Square. We had a lot when I ended up at Square. We had a lot when I ended up at Square. We had a lot of success of success of success pushing things into the open. I think uh pushing things into the open. I think uh pushing things into the open. I think uh almost every company is built on a almost every company is built on a almost every company is built on a foundation of work that other people do foundation of work that other people do foundation of work that other people do and if you can if you open source things and if you can if you open source things and if you can if you open source things or you contribute in open source to to or you contribute in open source to to or you contribute in open source to to even if it's stuff that you know you even if it's stuff that you know you even if it's stuff that you know you didn't build that's the reciprocity. didn't build that's the reciprocity. didn't build that's the reciprocity. You're you're paying that forward. You're you're paying that forward. You're you're paying that forward. you're you're lifting up, you know, the you're you're lifting up, you know, the you're you're lifting up, you know, the next business or whatever that is going next business or whatever that is going next business or whatever that is going to start based on the thing that you to start based on the thing that you to start based on the thing that you helped build the same way that you, you helped build the same way that you, you helped build the same way that you, you know, got started on reusing know, got started on reusing know, got started on reusing Linux or Android or SQLite or the JVM Linux or Android or SQLite or the JVM Linux or Android or SQLite or the JVM or, you know, all of these things that or, you know, all of these things that or, you know, all of these things that you don't have to build yourself.

you don't have to build yourself. you don't have to build yourself. >> Customers over shareholders. Your >> Customers over shareholders. Your >> Customers over shareholders. Your product focuses on providing value to product focuses on providing value to product focuses on providing value to customers, not enriching shareholders. customers, not enriching shareholders. customers, not enriching shareholders. There's very few products that I feel There's very few products that I feel There's very few products that I feel like are every time there's an update I like are every time there's an update I like are every time there's an update I get excited. It's more I feel dread get excited. It's more I feel dread get excited. It's more I feel dread because it's what did they break? You because it's what did they break? You because it's what did they break? You know, what did they change? What has know, what did they change? What has know, what did they change? What has moved behind the payw wall? Um it it's moved behind the payw wall? Um it it's moved behind the payw wall? Um it it's the you know the term which was the word the you know the term which was the word the you know the term which was the word of the year a couple years ago, the of the year a couple years ago, the of the year a couple years ago, the initification of of these products where initification of of these products where initification of of these products where there's not unlimited money. A lot of there's not unlimited money. A lot of there's not unlimited money. A lot of these places are, you know, they're these places are, you know, they're these places are, you know, they're venture capital funded and that's great venture capital funded and that's great venture capital funded and that's great at the beginning and you get as a user at the beginning and you get as a user at the beginning and you get as a user of the products that come out of a lot of the products that come out of a lot of the products that come out of a lot of those companies, you can get a lot of of those companies, you can get a lot of of those companies, you can get a lot of value. Um, but then you know there's value. Um, but then you know there's value. Um, but then you know there's this inevitable switch where this inevitable switch where this inevitable switch where these companies that don't have the these companies that don't have the these companies that don't have the sustainable sustainable sustainable model from the the get-go where they model from the the get-go where they model from the the get-go where they have to have to have to essentially remake themselves into essentially remake themselves into essentially remake themselves into something that's sustainable. Uh, it something that's sustainable. Uh, it something that's sustainable. Uh, it just ends up it it ends up being bad for just ends up it it ends up being bad for just ends up it it ends up being bad for the user. I want to try and choose a the user. I want to try and choose a the user. I want to try and choose a place that place that place that basically already has a sustainable basically already has a sustainable basically already has a sustainable mechanism where they're not going to be, mechanism where they're not going to be, mechanism where they're not going to be, you know, looking to extract value from you know, looking to extract value from you know, looking to extract value from their users in order to either pay back, their users in order to either pay back, their users in order to either pay back, you know, venture capital money or even you know, venture capital money or even you know, venture capital money or even just look at the interests of just look at the interests of just look at the interests of Wall Street investors over the actual

Wall Street investors over the actual Wall Street investors over the actual users of the product. people over users of the product. people over users of the product. people over profits. No geek workers or exploitative profits. No geek workers or exploitative profits. No geek workers or exploitative practices to squeeze every cent from practices to squeeze every cent from practices to squeeze every cent from customers. Not that dissimilar from the customers. Not that dissimilar from the customers. Not that dissimilar from the previous one, but uh you know these previous one, but uh you know these previous one, but uh you know these there's a subset of these companies that there's a subset of these companies that there's a subset of these companies that come in and they undercut some market come in and they undercut some market come in and they undercut some market basically through VC funding. uh the the basically through VC funding. uh the the basically through VC funding. uh the the the Ubers of the world, the Airbnbs, you the Ubers of the world, the Airbnbs, you the Ubers of the world, the Airbnbs, you know, the the Ubers were cheaper than know, the the Ubers were cheaper than know, the the Ubers were cheaper than taxis for the first couple years because taxis for the first couple years because taxis for the first couple years because some venture capitalist is covering the some venture capitalist is covering the some venture capitalist is covering the other half of your ride. And then when other half of your ride. And then when other half of your ride. And then when that money goes away and they have to that money goes away and they have to that money goes away and they have to turn, now you take an Uber, it's the turn, now you take an Uber, it's the turn, now you take an Uber, it's the same, if not more expensive than a taxi. same, if not more expensive than a taxi. same, if not more expensive than a taxi. And you know, you can say what you want And you know, you can say what you want And you know, you can say what you want about unions. There's some good unions about unions. There's some good unions about unions. There's some good unions and there's some bad unions, but like and there's some bad unions, but like and there's some bad unions, but like taxi cab companies were regulated and taxi cab companies were regulated and taxi cab companies were regulated and the workers all you know had to the workers all you know had to the workers all you know had to essentially essentially essentially uh meet certain requirements. Uh as uh meet certain requirements. Uh as uh meet certain requirements. Uh as opposed to the now the you know gig opposed to the now the you know gig opposed to the now the you know gig worker economy where somebody thinks worker economy where somebody thinks worker economy where somebody thinks these companies essentially make you these companies essentially make you these companies essentially make you think that you can earn well I can earn think that you can earn well I can earn think that you can earn well I can earn a little extra money by you know a little extra money by you know a little extra money by you know delivering food on the side. uh and you delivering food on the side. uh and you delivering food on the side. uh and you don't take into account like the don't take into account like the don't take into account like the depreciation of your car, the you know depreciation of your car, the you know depreciation of your car, the you know gas mileage and uh you you just end up gas mileage and uh you you just end up gas mileage and uh you you just end up basically losing a bunch of rights as basically losing a bunch of rights as basically losing a bunch of rights as that individual as opposed to if you that individual as opposed to if you that individual as opposed to if you just you know went all in on becoming a just you know went all in on becoming a just you know went all in on becoming a taxi driver. Um you know there's systems

taxi driver. Um you know there's systems taxi driver. Um you know there's systems in place to protect that industry that in place to protect that industry that in place to protect that industry that don't exist in these gig worker don't exist in these gig worker don't exist in these gig worker economies. So yeah, that's a whole economies. So yeah, that's a whole economies. So yeah, that's a whole subset of companies that I don't want to subset of companies that I don't want to subset of companies that I don't want to be involved in. be involved in. be involved in. >> Small and focused. Doing one thing well >> Small and focused. Doing one thing well >> Small and focused. Doing one thing well is better than trying to be everything is better than trying to be everything is better than trying to be everything to everyone. to everyone. to everyone. >> So this it's really the you know the >> So this it's really the you know the >> So this it's really the you know the best days, my best days I think at the best days, my best days I think at the best days, my best days I think at the first time at Square and when we were first time at Square and when we were first time at Square and when we were building cash was when it was when it building cash was when it was when it building cash was when it was when it was small. Uh you knew everyone, you was small. Uh you knew everyone, you was small. Uh you knew everyone, you could execute on a vision rapidly. could execute on a vision rapidly. could execute on a vision rapidly. you were almost uh a little naive I you were almost uh a little naive I you were almost uh a little naive I guess in in what you could build as guess in in what you could build as guess in in what you could build as opposed to you know when I left opposed to you know when I left opposed to you know when I left uh Cash App or you know Square the the uh Cash App or you know Square the the uh Cash App or you know Square the the company was I think 12,000 people which company was I think 12,000 people which company was I think 12,000 people which is different than you I joined at 200 is different than you I joined at 200 is different than you I joined at 200 who knows what the number of employees who knows what the number of employees who knows what the number of employees at Google is right that's an order of at Google is right that's an order of at Google is right that's an order of magnitude even larger and so you get magnitude even larger and so you get magnitude even larger and so you get into into into these these these habits of like bureaucracy and the habits of like bureaucracy and the habits of like bureaucracy and the product slows down and you're you start product slows down and you're you start product slows down and you're you start getting a little desperate to find new getting a little desperate to find new getting a little desperate to find new things that can bring in uh new users things that can bring in uh new users things that can bring in uh new users and yeah it's you know when you're small and yeah it's you know when you're small and yeah it's you know when you're small I think there's a a little bit of a I think there's a a little bit of a I think there's a a little bit of a purity in that and you can really focus purity in that and you can really focus purity in that and you can really focus on on on finding some segment of something that

finding some segment of something that finding some segment of something that you can just execute on really well and you can just execute on really well and you can just execute on really well and Uh, I also think it's I I'm a kind of Uh, I also think it's I I'm a kind of Uh, I also think it's I I'm a kind of person that likes to work on a lot of person that likes to work on a lot of person that likes to work on a lot of different things. When these companies different things. When these companies different things. When these companies get larger and larger, your get larger and larger, your get larger and larger, your responsibilities as an engineer tend to responsibilities as an engineer tend to responsibilities as an engineer tend to narrow. You know, you're there's I just narrow. You know, you're there's I just narrow. You know, you're there's I just remember hearing uh they're like someone remember hearing uh they're like someone remember hearing uh they're like someone who worked at Twitter, you know, 5 years who worked at Twitter, you know, 5 years who worked at Twitter, you know, 5 years ago was responsible for like the DM like ago was responsible for like the DM like ago was responsible for like the DM like interface, like just the the and at the interface, like just the the and at the interface, like just the the and at the time this was before they even had a time this was before they even had a time this was before they even had a bunch of like chat features in DM. It's bunch of like chat features in DM. It's bunch of like chat features in DM. It's like literally just the DMs of Twitter like literally just the DMs of Twitter like literally just the DMs of Twitter is all they worked on. And that's just is all they worked on. And that's just is all they worked on. And that's just like it's so narrow that you lose the like it's so narrow that you lose the like it's so narrow that you lose the flexibility to like enjoy the different flexibility to like enjoy the different flexibility to like enjoy the different things about the product. And I I just things about the product. And I I just things about the product. And I I just want to be able to have the flexibility want to be able to have the flexibility want to be able to have the flexibility to bounce around within a product and to bounce around within a product and to bounce around within a product and work on a bunch of different things. Um work on a bunch of different things. Um work on a bunch of different things. Um and that also provides a lot of and that also provides a lot of and that also provides a lot of opportunity for for learning. Um when opportunity for for learning. Um when opportunity for for learning. Um when when a thing's smaller and you have more when a thing's smaller and you have more when a thing's smaller and you have more responsibilities, you get pushed out of responsibilities, you get pushed out of responsibilities, you get pushed out of your comfort zone. You have to learn how your comfort zone. You have to learn how your comfort zone. You have to learn how to do a bunch of things because there to do a bunch of things because there to do a bunch of things because there aren't teams of 50 people, you know, aren't teams of 50 people, you know, aren't teams of 50 people, you know, managing something else that you can managing something else that you can managing something else that you can just throw a requirement over the wall just throw a requirement over the wall just throw a requirement over the wall and wait two months and have something and wait two months and have something and wait two months and have something delivered for you. You have to go get delivered for you. You have to go get delivered for you. You have to go get your hands dirty a little bit more.

your hands dirty a little bit more. your hands dirty a little bit more. >> Diversity, equity, and inclusion. >> Diversity, equity, and inclusion. >> Diversity, equity, and inclusion. Distributing opportunity equally takes Distributing opportunity equally takes Distributing opportunity equally takes active work. active work. active work. >> You know, depending on where you live, >> You know, depending on where you live, >> You know, depending on where you live, depending on where you were born, uh depending on where you were born, uh depending on where you were born, uh previous jobs you had, right? There's previous jobs you had, right? There's previous jobs you had, right? There's all kinds of things in your life that all kinds of things in your life that all kinds of things in your life that put you at certain advantages and put you at certain advantages and put you at certain advantages and disadvantages and it's not even the disadvantages and it's not even the disadvantages and it's not even the things that like you know you could very things that like you know you could very things that like you know you could very simply think of like gender or skin simply think of like gender or skin simply think of like gender or skin color or whatever but color or whatever but color or whatever but you know again going back to my past you know again going back to my past you know again going back to my past experiences at cash like when I found experiences at cash like when I found experiences at cash like when I found out that um out that um out that um like that we talked about the salaries like that we talked about the salaries like that we talked about the salaries the salaries of my co-workers working in the salaries of my co-workers working in the salaries of my co-workers working in in different countries they're doing the in different countries they're doing the in different countries they're doing the same job as I am and getting paid you same job as I am and getting paid you same job as I am and getting paid you know market rate which is which is maybe know market rate which is which is maybe know market rate which is which is maybe half of what I was getting paid in the half of what I was getting paid in the half of what I was getting paid in the US that doesn't make sense to me uh and US that doesn't make sense to me uh and US that doesn't make sense to me uh and that's basically you know they just that's basically you know they just that's basically you know they just happen to live in that geographical happen to live in that geographical happen to live in that geographical region and so you see people moving you region and so you see people moving you region and so you see people moving you know to the US for the sole purpose of know to the US for the sole purpose of know to the US for the sole purpose of wanting a higher number on their wanting a higher number on their wanting a higher number on their paycheck but otherwise doing the exact paycheck but otherwise doing the exact paycheck but otherwise doing the exact same job that's like an an example same job that's like an an example same job that's like an an example that's not gender skin color or whatever that's not gender skin color or whatever that's not gender skin color or whatever you know where your geographic region you know where your geographic region you know where your geographic region can put you at a disadvantage uh where can put you at a disadvantage uh where can put you at a disadvantage uh where you you make less and might not you know you you make less and might not you know you you make less and might not you know potentially make enough to sustain you potentially make enough to sustain you potentially make enough to sustain you know the the lifestyle that you you know know the the lifestyle that you you know know the the lifestyle that you you know want to live. Um but yeah of course the want to live. Um but yeah of course the want to live. Um but yeah of course the obvious things as well like you know obvious things as well like you know obvious things as well like you know discriminating against people because of

discriminating against people because of discriminating against people because of things they can't control is just it's a things they can't control is just it's a things they can't control is just it's a ridiculous concept. It's hard to believe ridiculous concept. It's hard to believe ridiculous concept. It's hard to believe that I have to write it actually as a that I have to write it actually as a that I have to write it actually as a value because a lot of these things I value because a lot of these things I value because a lot of these things I feel like I shouldn't have to write. feel like I shouldn't have to write. feel like I shouldn't have to write. They should just be, you know, the They should just be, you know, the They should just be, you know, the values like the these people that are values like the these people that are values like the these people that are against it need to have watched like against it need to have watched like against it need to have watched like more Star Trek or something as a kid more Star Trek or something as a kid more Star Trek or something as a kid where you know it's totally normal for where you know it's totally normal for where you know it's totally normal for people to look completely different or people to look completely different or people to look completely different or you know Alien whatever like uh or have you know Alien whatever like uh or have you know Alien whatever like uh or have women have equal roles as men. This like women have equal roles as men. This like women have equal roles as men. This like you know this shouldn't be a thing that you know this shouldn't be a thing that you know this shouldn't be a thing that we should have to even touch on anymore. we should have to even touch on anymore. we should have to even touch on anymore. and you know because of the larger and you know because of the larger and you know because of the larger political climate uh a lot of there's political climate uh a lot of there's political climate uh a lot of there's been just a lot of push against this uh been just a lot of push against this uh been just a lot of push against this uh and so yeah I feel it's important to and so yeah I feel it's important to and so yeah I feel it's important to call out that I think that's call out that I think that's call out that I think that's and this is still a very important thing and this is still a very important thing and this is still a very important thing to me to me to me >> work life balance I don't have work chat >> work life balance I don't have work chat >> work life balance I don't have work chat or code review on my phone or code review on my phone or code review on my phone >> first five or six years you know at >> first five or six years you know at >> first five or six years you know at square I had Slack on my phone GitHub on square I had Slack on my phone GitHub on square I had Slack on my phone GitHub on my phone I I felt totally fine hopping my phone I I felt totally fine hopping my phone I I felt totally fine hopping on reviewing a PR on Saturday night.

on reviewing a PR on Saturday night. on reviewing a PR on Saturday night. While that's fine for me, um the thing I While that's fine for me, um the thing I While that's fine for me, um the thing I came to realize is uh came to realize is uh came to realize is uh you have somebody that's, you know, an you have somebody that's, you know, an you have somebody that's, you know, an intern or a junior or whatever coming in intern or a junior or whatever coming in intern or a junior or whatever coming in and they see you do that and they don't and they see you do that and they don't and they see you do that and they don't know why. They don't know that like even know why. They don't know that like even know why. They don't know that like even though I was in the office on Thursday, though I was in the office on Thursday, though I was in the office on Thursday, I didn't do any work on Thursday cuz I I didn't do any work on Thursday cuz I I didn't do any work on Thursday cuz I wasn't feeling it or I had to go to the wasn't feeling it or I had to go to the wasn't feeling it or I had to go to the doctor or, you know, whatever. And so doctor or, you know, whatever. And so doctor or, you know, whatever. And so what I'm doing is I'm balancing my what I'm doing is I'm balancing my what I'm doing is I'm balancing my books. I'm I'm working late one night to books. I'm I'm working late one night to books. I'm I'm working late one night to to, you know, make up for not working on to, you know, make up for not working on to, you know, make up for not working on Thursday. Uh or when I'm in the zone, I Thursday. Uh or when I'm in the zone, I Thursday. Uh or when I'm in the zone, I worked, you know, 12 hours straight and worked, you know, 12 hours straight and worked, you know, 12 hours straight and then I, you know, don't come in till I then I, you know, don't come in till I then I, you know, don't come in till I don't turn on my computer till 1 the don't turn on my computer till 1 the don't turn on my computer till 1 the next day. I do that to to even that out. next day. I do that to to even that out. next day. I do that to to even that out. But the if somebody that doesn't know But the if somebody that doesn't know But the if somebody that doesn't know that I'm doing that sees what I'm doing that I'm doing that sees what I'm doing that I'm doing that sees what I'm doing and they they see, oh, Jake's working and they they see, oh, Jake's working and they they see, oh, Jake's working till 8:00 p.m., you know, he's reviewing till 8:00 p.m., you know, he's reviewing till 8:00 p.m., you know, he's reviewing my PR at 11:00 p.m. on a Sunday. Then my PR at 11:00 p.m. on a Sunday. Then my PR at 11:00 p.m. on a Sunday. Then they might think, and it's it would be a they might think, and it's it would be a they might think, and it's it would be a totally reasonable thought that that's totally reasonable thought that that's totally reasonable thought that that's an expectation that the company has is an expectation that the company has is an expectation that the company has is that I should also have chat on my that I should also have chat on my that I should also have chat on my phone. you know, somebody asks a phone. you know, somebody asks a phone. you know, somebody asks a question that you can answer in 10 question that you can answer in 10 question that you can answer in 10 seconds, a work question on a weekend, seconds, a work question on a weekend, seconds, a work question on a weekend, like yeah, you know, that's not that big like yeah, you know, that's not that big like yeah, you know, that's not that big a deal, but you're starting to set a a deal, but you're starting to set a a deal, but you're starting to set a precedent, especially with the remote precedent, especially with the remote precedent, especially with the remote work and the fact that the apps on our work and the fact that the apps on our work and the fact that the apps on our phone are now so powerful. It's very phone are now so powerful. It's very phone are now so powerful. It's very easy to always be connected, but I think easy to always be connected, but I think easy to always be connected, but I think there's a ton of value in disconnecting.

there's a ton of value in disconnecting. there's a ton of value in disconnecting. And I want to instill that in others. I And I want to instill that in others. I And I want to instill that in others. I want to show that like it's okay to not, want to show that like it's okay to not, want to show that like it's okay to not, you know, check your work email. You can you know, check your work email. You can you know, check your work email. You can close that at 5:00 p.m. on a Friday and close that at 5:00 p.m. on a Friday and close that at 5:00 p.m. on a Friday and not open it until 9:00 a.m. or whatever not open it until 9:00 a.m. or whatever not open it until 9:00 a.m. or whatever Monday. And that should be the norm, not Monday. And that should be the norm, not Monday. And that should be the norm, not this, you know, weird thing that you're this, you know, weird thing that you're this, you know, weird thing that you're doing. doing. doing. >> Which values cost you the most offers? >> Which values cost you the most offers? >> Which values cost you the most offers? No AI, 80%, then then what? I would say No AI, 80%, then then what? I would say No AI, 80%, then then what? I would say the one that really restricted options the one that really restricted options the one that really restricted options was a around the VC funding and like how was a around the VC funding and like how was a around the VC funding and like how you know trying to find a place that's you know trying to find a place that's you know trying to find a place that's profitable, has a healthy business profitable, has a healthy business profitable, has a healthy business model, model, model, uh, you know, has a some sort of way of uh, you know, has a some sort of way of uh, you know, has a some sort of way of making money. Um, they're not tied to making money. Um, they're not tied to making money. Um, they're not tied to like some external system that they like some external system that they like some external system that they don't control. you know, they're not don't control. you know, they're not don't control. you know, they're not built on somebody else's technology that built on somebody else's technology that built on somebody else's technology that can price fluctuations or whole can price fluctuations or whole can price fluctuations or whole geopolitical stuff can happen where geopolitical stuff can happen where geopolitical stuff can happen where suddenly like, you know, they're suddenly like, you know, they're suddenly like, you know, they're unsustainable. That just categorically unsustainable. That just categorically unsustainable. That just categorically eliminated like eliminated like eliminated like uh I would say 95% uh I would say 95% uh I would say 95% of potential companies because that of potential companies because that of potential companies because that that's the model. And you can do like that's the model. And you can do like that's the model. And you can do like healthy VC funded places, but I would healthy VC funded places, but I would healthy VC funded places, but I would say they're more the exception um than say they're more the exception um than say they're more the exception um than than the norm. Uh and then it stands in than the norm. Uh and then it stands in than the norm. Uh and then it stands in direct conflict with the places that are direct conflict with the places that are direct conflict with the places that are that are small and healthily VC funded that are small and healthily VC funded that are small and healthily VC funded are they're also probably not like are they're also probably not like are they're also probably not like building things that I'm interested in

building things that I'm interested in building things that I'm interested in as well. So, um yeah, that I would say as well. So, um yeah, that I would say as well. So, um yeah, that I would say that narrowed the field like 90 95%. Uh that narrowed the field like 90 95%. Uh that narrowed the field like 90 95%. Uh and it yeah, it's a hard one. It was a and it yeah, it's a hard one. It was a and it yeah, it's a hard one. It was a hard one to to stand by, especially hard one to to stand by, especially hard one to to stand by, especially since that usually means higher salary since that usually means higher salary since that usually means higher salary as well. And so, you know, I had to be as well. And so, you know, I had to be as well. And so, you know, I had to be comfortable with taking a pay cut if comfortable with taking a pay cut if comfortable with taking a pay cut if that was going to be a thing that, you that was going to be a thing that, you that was going to be a thing that, you know, was a value of mine. know, was a value of mine. know, was a value of mine. >> In February 2026, after 3 months of job >> In February 2026, after 3 months of job >> In February 2026, after 3 months of job search, you joined Skylight. Why this search, you joined Skylight. Why this search, you joined Skylight. Why this company? they echo a lot of the values company? they echo a lot of the values company? they echo a lot of the values uh that that we covered and they had uh that that we covered and they had uh that that we covered and they had this bonus this you know cherry on top this bonus this you know cherry on top this bonus this you know cherry on top which was it was a product that I'm like which was it was a product that I'm like which was it was a product that I'm like the customer for I had the product uh I the customer for I had the product uh I the customer for I had the product uh I had the use case I have you know the had the use case I have you know the had the use case I have you know the family this is a product for families family this is a product for families family this is a product for families I've been really wanting to do hardware I've been really wanting to do hardware I've been really wanting to do hardware tinkering uh they're they're a hardware tinkering uh they're they're a hardware tinkering uh they're they're a hardware product um I really like that they're product um I really like that they're product um I really like that they're not in the Play Store. I don't have to not in the Play Store. I don't have to not in the Play Store. I don't have to deal with, you know, the the whole deal with, you know, the the whole deal with, you know, the the whole Google thing. It's where, you know, we Google thing. It's where, you know, we Google thing. It's where, you know, we distribute our own app and it's there's distribute our own app and it's there's distribute our own app and it's there's a bunch of stuff that is Android a bunch of stuff that is Android a bunch of stuff that is Android adjacent that I've never done before. I adjacent that I've never done before. I adjacent that I've never done before. I have not really other than when I was at have not really other than when I was at have not really other than when I was at Google and like you would build the Google and like you would build the Google and like you would build the Android operating system and build, you Android operating system and build, you Android operating system and build, you know, your own emulators as you're know, your own emulators as you're know, your own emulators as you're working on the framework. Um, I've never working on the framework. Um, I've never working on the framework. Um, I've never really worked with AOSP. you've never really worked with AOSP. you've never really worked with AOSP. you've never really worked with an actual hardware really worked with an actual hardware really worked with an actual hardware device and what you know what the device and what you know what the device and what you know what the requirements are there. The fact that requirements are there. The fact that requirements are there. The fact that you're an app that's not in the Play

you're an app that's not in the Play you're an app that's not in the Play Store means you've sort of free reign of Store means you've sort of free reign of Store means you've sort of free reign of the operating system to make it, you the operating system to make it, you the operating system to make it, you know, do whatever you want. And so know, do whatever you want. And so know, do whatever you want. And so it, you know, they met a bunch of the it, you know, they met a bunch of the it, you know, they met a bunch of the values that we covered. Um they're they values that we covered. Um they're they values that we covered. Um they're they very, you know, they're funded, they very, you know, they're funded, they very, you know, they're funded, they have a a revenue stream. Um they're have a a revenue stream. Um they're have a a revenue stream. Um they're just all around really great people. Um just all around really great people. Um just all around really great people. Um I knew so Kevin Barry who um was the I knew so Kevin Barry who um was the I knew so Kevin Barry who um was the author of of Nova Launcher um he also author of of Nova Launcher um he also author of of Nova Launcher um he also joined about six months before me. So I joined about six months before me. So I joined about six months before me. So I I um I thought that was a big vote of I um I thought that was a big vote of I um I thought that was a big vote of confidence in the company that he would confidence in the company that he would confidence in the company that he would he would choose it and uh yeah it's just he would choose it and uh yeah it's just he would choose it and uh yeah it's just uh it was almost like and unfortunately uh it was almost like and unfortunately uh it was almost like and unfortunately for every other company it was the very for every other company it was the very for every other company it was the very first company that I had talked to and first company that I had talked to and first company that I had talked to and so it became the bar by which every so it became the bar by which every so it became the bar by which every other company was measured and you know other company was measured and you know other company was measured and you know it's it was it became very easy to make it's it was it became very easy to make it's it was it became very easy to make that choice because the more and more I that choice because the more and more I that choice because the more and more I looked around there were other great looked around there were other great looked around there were other great places but none of them just had that places but none of them just had that places but none of them just had that it's like the whole package of what I it's like the whole package of what I it's like the whole package of what I was looking for.

was looking for. was looking for. >> Did you have to compromise any of your >> Did you have to compromise any of your >> Did you have to compromise any of your nine values to join Skylight? nine values to join Skylight? nine values to join Skylight? >> I don't think I don't think so. Yeah, >> I don't think I don't think so. Yeah, >> I don't think I don't think so. Yeah, the one of the things was like they did the one of the things was like they did the one of the things was like they did they haven't done any real open source. they haven't done any real open source. they haven't done any real open source. Um, but they were open to it and they Um, but they were open to it and they Um, but they were open to it and they certainly were, you know, open to the certainly were, you know, open to the certainly were, you know, open to the fact that, you know, I am a maintainer fact that, you know, I am a maintainer fact that, you know, I am a maintainer of a bunch of of open source projects of a bunch of of open source projects of a bunch of of open source projects still and so that's sort of like still still and so that's sort of like still still and so that's sort of like still part of my responsibility and and many part of my responsibility and and many part of my responsibility and and many of those are even still used in the of those are even still used in the of those are even still used in the product um, as well. And they have LM product um, as well. And they have LM product um, as well. And they have LM stuff uh, but it's not the whole product stuff uh, but it's not the whole product stuff uh, but it's not the whole product is not built around it. It's it's is not built around it. It's it's is not built around it. It's it's tastefully added. It's entirely tastefully added. It's entirely tastefully added. It's entirely optional. um you don't have to be using optional. um you don't have to be using optional. um you don't have to be using it. It's used it. It's used it. It's used effectively I think um it's not you know effectively I think um it's not you know effectively I think um it's not you know the whole the whole product hasn't the whole the whole product hasn't the whole the whole product hasn't pivoted to become you know a chatbot or pivoted to become you know a chatbot or pivoted to become you know a chatbot or something. um they they we I shouldn't something. um they they we I shouldn't something. um they they we I shouldn't say they we are hopefully you know using say they we are hopefully you know using say they we are hopefully you know using it tastefully and um they demonstrated it tastefully and um they demonstrated it tastefully and um they demonstrated that and hopefully now that I'm there I that and hopefully now that I'm there I that and hopefully now that I'm there I can also continue to you know instill can also continue to you know instill can also continue to you know instill these values I think as a positive thing these values I think as a positive thing these values I think as a positive thing for the company and uh so yeah it not for the company and uh so yeah it not for the company and uh so yeah it not not really it it was really a slam dunk.

not really it it was really a slam dunk. not really it it was really a slam dunk. >> What are you actually building there? >> What are you actually building there? >> What are you actually building there? >> So it's a it's a product focused for >> So it's a it's a product focused for >> So it's a it's a product focused for families. It's a they're a wall-mounted families. It's a they're a wall-mounted families. It's a they're a wall-mounted or a um countertop or a um countertop or a um countertop essentially tablet um Android you know essentially tablet um Android you know essentially tablet um Android you know big tablet that runs a application big tablet that runs a application big tablet that runs a application that's centered around managing families that's centered around managing families that's centered around managing families or households really you know the or households really you know the or households really you know the structure of the family is is irrelevant structure of the family is is irrelevant structure of the family is is irrelevant but it's about getting things out of but it's about getting things out of but it's about getting things out of your brain um mostly focused on parents your brain um mostly focused on parents your brain um mostly focused on parents so you know keeping track of what kid so you know keeping track of what kid so you know keeping track of what kid has soccer or you know some recital or has soccer or you know some recital or has soccer or you know some recital or what you need to buy at the store this what you need to buy at the store this what you need to buy at the store this week or what meals are we going to have week or what meals are we going to have week or what meals are we going to have this week? Who's going to be home when this week? Who's going to be home when this week? Who's going to be home when when can I expect uh you know certain when can I expect uh you know certain when can I expect uh you know certain chores to be done for the kids? Keeping chores to be done for the kids? Keeping chores to be done for the kids? Keeping them accountable uh trying to teach them them accountable uh trying to teach them them accountable uh trying to teach them you know healthy habits and stuff. So you know healthy habits and stuff. So you know healthy habits and stuff. So they the the like catchy phrase that they the the like catchy phrase that they the the like catchy phrase that they like to use is it's a family they like to use is it's a family they like to use is it's a family operating system. But um yeah, the whole operating system. But um yeah, the whole operating system. But um yeah, the whole thing is like cognitively unbburdening thing is like cognitively unbburdening thing is like cognitively unbburdening yourself as the the head of the family yourself as the the head of the family yourself as the the head of the family and being able to put all that stuff and being able to put all that stuff and being able to put all that stuff into the device so it can manage it for into the device so it can manage it for into the device so it can manage it for you and you can, you know, just focus on you and you can, you know, just focus on you and you can, you know, just focus on being a good family member. Let's go being a good family member. Let's go being a good family member. Let's go back to AI. In May 2026, Coinbase CEO back to AI. In May 2026, Coinbase CEO back to AI. In May 2026, Coinbase CEO Brian Armstrong cut uh 14% of stuff and Brian Armstrong cut uh 14% of stuff and Brian Armstrong cut uh 14% of stuff and referred to AI. his quote, referred to AI. his quote, referred to AI. his quote, "Non-technical teams are now shipping "Non-technical teams are now shipping "Non-technical teams are now shipping production code." What do you think production code." What do you think production code." What do you think about this shift?

about this shift? about this shift? Uh, I mean, Uh, I mean, Uh, I mean, not exactly a company that I hold in not exactly a company that I hold in not exactly a company that I hold in high regard. Uh, they pretty much fail high regard. Uh, they pretty much fail high regard. Uh, they pretty much fail every one of my values. Uh, he's also every one of my values. Uh, he's also every one of my values. Uh, he's also not a great figure. I think he's one of not a great figure. I think he's one of not a great figure. I think he's one of the ones where there's no politics at the ones where there's no politics at the ones where there's no politics at the workplace, which is of course a very the workplace, which is of course a very the workplace, which is of course a very political thing to say. and then he is political thing to say. and then he is political thing to say. and then he is free to make political statements on free to make political statements on free to make political statements on Twitter as much as he wants. It seems Twitter as much as he wants. It seems Twitter as much as he wants. It seems shortsighted. Uh so again to echo a shortsighted. Uh so again to echo a shortsighted. Uh so again to echo a thing we talked about earlier, the whole thing we talked about earlier, the whole thing we talked about earlier, the whole LLM industry is propped up on VC money. LLM industry is propped up on VC money. LLM industry is propped up on VC money. Uh just this week as we record, there's Uh just this week as we record, there's Uh just this week as we record, there's a thing going around about GitHub a thing going around about GitHub a thing going around about GitHub copilot transitioning to usage space. I copilot transitioning to usage space. I copilot transitioning to usage space. I don't know what it's just like a month. don't know what it's just like a month. don't know what it's just like a month. it was monthly based, you know, like $30 it was monthly based, you know, like $30 it was monthly based, you know, like $30 or something a month, and they're or something a month, and they're or something a month, and they're transitioning to to usage because the transitioning to to usage because the transitioning to to usage because the money that's propping it up in order to money that's propping it up in order to money that's propping it up in order to do the land grab to to get the market do the land grab to to get the market do the land grab to to get the market share is going away. And so it went from share is going away. And so it went from share is going away. And so it went from this person's GitHub went from GitHub this person's GitHub went from GitHub this person's GitHub went from GitHub Copilot went from $30 to like 1,400 or Copilot went from $30 to like 1,400 or Copilot went from $30 to like 1,400 or something, you know, two orders of something, you know, two orders of something, you know, two orders of magnitude in in growth. And that is not magnitude in in growth. And that is not magnitude in in growth. And that is not going to be unique. That's going to be going to be unique. That's going to be going to be unique. That's going to be the pattern. Now you're going to see the pattern. Now you're going to see the pattern. Now you're going to see these companies that are essentially these companies that are essentially these companies that are essentially hooked on AI. They've been addicted to hooked on AI. They've been addicted to hooked on AI. They've been addicted to it. They're unable to operate in ways it. They're unable to operate in ways it. They're unable to operate in ways without using these LLM products. Have without using these LLM products. Have without using these LLM products. Have their costs go up. I mean maybe by an their costs go up. I mean maybe by an their costs go up. I mean maybe by an order of magnitude but two orders of

order of magnitude but two orders of order of magnitude but two orders of magnitude will be like game over for uh magnitude will be like game over for uh magnitude will be like game over for uh a lot of a lot of these a lot of a lot of these a lot of a lot of these ideas where you can replace the ideas where you can replace the ideas where you can replace the engineers with the LLM. Uh I do see a engineers with the LLM. Uh I do see a engineers with the LLM. Uh I do see a lot of talk where like uh as these costs lot of talk where like uh as these costs lot of talk where like uh as these costs rise it ends up costing just just rise it ends up costing just just rise it ends up costing just just looking at pure salary it's it ends up looking at pure salary it's it ends up looking at pure salary it's it ends up costing more than the engineer that you costing more than the engineer that you costing more than the engineer that you thought you were replacing. And so you thought you were replacing. And so you thought you were replacing. And so you know I don't have a huge problem with know I don't have a huge problem with know I don't have a huge problem with the concept of like lowering barriers to the concept of like lowering barriers to the concept of like lowering barriers to entry for people you know wanting to entry for people you know wanting to entry for people you know wanting to contribute to code bases and stuff like contribute to code bases and stuff like contribute to code bases and stuff like I I am totally on board with that. one I I am totally on board with that. one I I am totally on board with that. one of the best designers I ever worked with of the best designers I ever worked with of the best designers I ever worked with took a weekend, he learned how to do took a weekend, he learned how to do took a weekend, he learned how to do Android and he wrote this like insanely Android and he wrote this like insanely Android and he wrote this like insanely complex animation in the Android complex animation in the Android complex animation in the Android codebase and just sent a pull request codebase and just sent a pull request codebase and just sent a pull request for it. Um, which is like stellar. Um, for it. Um, which is like stellar. Um, for it. Um, which is like stellar. Um, and so yeah, getting people who aren't and so yeah, getting people who aren't and so yeah, getting people who aren't dedicated engineers able to contribute dedicated engineers able to contribute dedicated engineers able to contribute in ways that are more tangible, um, like in ways that are more tangible, um, like in ways that are more tangible, um, like actually affecting, you know, the things actually affecting, you know, the things actually affecting, you know, the things that are being built in some way. I'm that are being built in some way. I'm that are being built in some way. I'm totally on board with that. I think totally on board with that. I think totally on board with that. I think there's a responsible way to do it and there's a responsible way to do it and there's a responsible way to do it and there's an irresponsible way. And the there's an irresponsible way. And the there's an irresponsible way. And the irresponsible way is to just say, irresponsible way is to just say, irresponsible way is to just say, I'm going to throw away a large subset I'm going to throw away a large subset I'm going to throw away a large subset of my engineers and I'm going to offload of my engineers and I'm going to offload of my engineers and I'm going to offload all of that work onto an LLM. Uh 14% is all of that work onto an LLM. Uh 14% is all of that work onto an LLM. Uh 14% is not that not that bad. At after I left

not that not that bad. At after I left not that not that bad. At after I left cash, they got rid of 70% of engineers. cash, they got rid of 70% of engineers. cash, they got rid of 70% of engineers. Um, and they think that they can offset Um, and they think that they can offset Um, and they think that they can offset that with, you know, being more lean, that with, you know, being more lean, that with, you know, being more lean, which you can definitely just be more which you can definitely just be more which you can definitely just be more lean, but then also with putting it all lean, but then also with putting it all lean, but then also with putting it all through LLMs and having them do, you through LLMs and having them do, you through LLMs and having them do, you know, having each engineer do the work know, having each engineer do the work know, having each engineer do the work of four people and having the product of four people and having the product of four people and having the product people, you know, be able to through the people, you know, be able to through the people, you know, be able to through the chat system be able to, you know, craft chat system be able to, you know, craft chat system be able to, you know, craft pull requests and not actually have that pull requests and not actually have that pull requests and not actually have that full understanding of what it is. the full understanding of what it is. the full understanding of what it is. the output is I think it will work for a output is I think it will work for a output is I think it will work for a very short period of time and I think it very short period of time and I think it very short period of time and I think it will ultimately lead to a long-term will ultimately lead to a long-term will ultimately lead to a long-term decline in software quality. decline in software quality. decline in software quality. Whether that happens before or after Whether that happens before or after Whether that happens before or after costs costs costs increase by an order of magnitude or two increase by an order of magnitude or two increase by an order of magnitude or two um I don't know but both of them I think um I don't know but both of them I think um I don't know but both of them I think are inevitable. Uh I don't think the are inevitable. Uh I don't think the are inevitable. Uh I don't think the cost one is a matter of opinion. That's cost one is a matter of opinion. That's cost one is a matter of opinion. That's just how that works. like they're not just how that works. like they're not just how that works. like they're not that whole industry is just doing the that whole industry is just doing the that whole industry is just doing the same thing that all of these other same thing that all of these other same thing that all of these other companies that use VC money to subsidize companies that use VC money to subsidize companies that use VC money to subsidize usage to you know addict users to get usage to you know addict users to get usage to you know addict users to get that and then switch to value extraction that and then switch to value extraction that and then switch to value extraction like that is the playbook and so that like that is the playbook and so that like that is the playbook and so that will happen and something like that is will happen and something like that is will happen and something like that is relatively shortsighted I think because relatively shortsighted I think because relatively shortsighted I think because it's just going to end up turning around it's just going to end up turning around it's just going to end up turning around and biting them. Have you tried writing

and biting them. Have you tried writing and biting them. Have you tried writing code with AI agents? code with AI agents? code with AI agents? >> Never. I choose to take an extremist >> Never. I choose to take an extremist >> Never. I choose to take an extremist stance because I want to make sure that stance because I want to make sure that stance because I want to make sure that people are thinking about the thing people are thinking about the thing people are thinking about the thing that's behind, you know, what they're that's behind, you know, what they're that's behind, you know, what they're working with. If you working with. If you working with. If you there's so many so many problems, too, there's so many so many problems, too, there's so many so many problems, too, like you're basically like you're basically like you're basically like tech workers in general. Um, you like tech workers in general. Um, you like tech workers in general. Um, you know, we rarely unionize know, we rarely unionize know, we rarely unionize because the money was there, the money because the money was there, the money because the money was there, the money was good, everything was great. You was good, everything was great. You was good, everything was great. You know, why would we need why would we know, why would we need why would we know, why would we need why would we need to have, you know, this this extra need to have, you know, this this extra need to have, you know, this this extra power? Uh, and now that that's drying power? Uh, and now that that's drying power? Uh, and now that that's drying up, you know, you see you see these up, you know, you see you see these up, you know, you see you see these layoffs, you see these people just being layoffs, you see these people just being layoffs, you see these people just being thrown away. We're in Germany right now. thrown away. We're in Germany right now. thrown away. We're in Germany right now. Germany has excellent worker Germany has excellent worker Germany has excellent worker protections. In the US, you just your protections. In the US, you just your protections. In the US, you just your you probably get your account turned off you probably get your account turned off you probably get your account turned off before you even find out. your just mail before you even find out. your just mail before you even find out. your just mail stops refreshing or something. Um, I stops refreshing or something. Um, I stops refreshing or something. Um, I feel like by relying on these systems, feel like by relying on these systems, feel like by relying on these systems, you're essentially transferring power you're essentially transferring power you're essentially transferring power away from yourself. You're turning away from yourself. You're turning away from yourself. You're turning yourself into a replaceable cog that the yourself into a replaceable cog that the yourself into a replaceable cog that the these companies can then throw away and these companies can then throw away and these companies can then throw away and pull in the cheaper version of you so pull in the cheaper version of you so pull in the cheaper version of you so that they can save save money. I also that they can save save money. I also that they can save save money. I also think you're really putting yourself at think you're really putting yourself at think you're really putting yourself at risk. Um, I think there's sort of two risk. Um, I think there's sort of two risk. Um, I think there's sort of two axes. There's like the ethical axes of axes. There's like the ethical axes of axes. There's like the ethical axes of using LLMs. Um, but I also think there's using LLMs. Um, but I also think there's using LLMs. Um, but I also think there's like a responsibility like a responsibility like a responsibility axis. There's like a responsible way to axis. There's like a responsible way to axis. There's like a responsible way to use it and there's an irresponsible way.

use it and there's an irresponsible way. use it and there's an irresponsible way. The responsible way is you use it as a a The responsible way is you use it as a a The responsible way is you use it as a a tailwind. You use it to augment your tailwind. You use it to augment your tailwind. You use it to augment your existing existing existing capabilities as an engineer. Uh, use it capabilities as an engineer. Uh, use it capabilities as an engineer. Uh, use it to, you know, allow to express yourself to, you know, allow to express yourself to, you know, allow to express yourself at your capability more quickly or, you at your capability more quickly or, you at your capability more quickly or, you know, whatever. And then the know, whatever. And then the know, whatever. And then the irresponsible way is to use it to write irresponsible way is to use it to write irresponsible way is to use it to write code beyond your capability. Whereas if code beyond your capability. Whereas if code beyond your capability. Whereas if the LLM wasn't there, you wouldn't have the LLM wasn't there, you wouldn't have the LLM wasn't there, you wouldn't have been able to pull off the thing that you been able to pull off the thing that you been able to pull off the thing that you did. And that's a risky thing to do did. And that's a risky thing to do did. And that's a risky thing to do considering the whole pricing thing. If considering the whole pricing thing. If considering the whole pricing thing. If you can't afford the if the LM price you can't afford the if the LM price you can't afford the if the LM price goes up by let's say 20x and you can goes up by let's say 20x and you can goes up by let's say 20x and you can only afford only afford only afford you know 4% of the tokens that you you know 4% of the tokens that you you know 4% of the tokens that you previously were using in the past. Do previously were using in the past. Do previously were using in the past. Do you then become like a basically you then become like a basically you then become like a basically uncapable to, you know, do work uncapable to, you know, do work uncapable to, you know, do work dayto-day because you become so reliant dayto-day because you become so reliant dayto-day because you become so reliant on the tool or do you just go back to on the tool or do you just go back to on the tool or do you just go back to doing it the oldfashioned way or use it, doing it the oldfashioned way or use it, doing it the oldfashioned way or use it, you know, in fewer places to to do the you know, in fewer places to to do the you know, in fewer places to to do the tasks that are mundane or repetitive or tasks that are mundane or repetitive or tasks that are mundane or repetitive or widespread or, you know, the the widespread or, you know, the the widespread or, you know, the the effective usage of it. And so that's the effective usage of it. And so that's the effective usage of it. And so that's the thing, you know, I feel like I can take thing, you know, I feel like I can take thing, you know, I feel like I can take the extremist stance for now. I don't the extremist stance for now. I don't the extremist stance for now. I don't know how long it'll last. Hopefully I know how long it'll last. Hopefully I know how long it'll last. Hopefully I last past when the bubble bursts and last past when the bubble bursts and last past when the bubble bursts and then, you know, we sort of have a then, you know, we sort of have a then, you know, we sort of have a collective reset. It's never going to go collective reset. It's never going to go collective reset. It's never going to go away, I don't think. Um, but yeah, it's

away, I don't think. Um, but yeah, it's away, I don't think. Um, but yeah, it's uh I just want people to uh I just want people to uh I just want people to think a little bit before they use it think a little bit before they use it think a little bit before they use it too much. uh and don't become so reliant too much. uh and don't become so reliant too much. uh and don't become so reliant on it that you know it's it becomes the on it that you know it's it becomes the on it that you know it's it becomes the foundation on which your entire you know foundation on which your entire you know foundation on which your entire you know ability to engineer code is built. Have ability to engineer code is built. Have ability to engineer code is built. Have it just be a tool in the toolbox like it just be a tool in the toolbox like it just be a tool in the toolbox like you know the myriad of others we have. you know the myriad of others we have. you know the myriad of others we have. >> What's your plan B if uh AI writes >> What's your plan B if uh AI writes >> What's your plan B if uh AI writes better code than you in 6 months? better code than you in 6 months? better code than you in 6 months? I I I probably will just keep working at probably will just keep working at probably will just keep working at smaller and smaller companies and making smaller and smaller companies and making smaller and smaller companies and making less and less money uh while retaining less and less money uh while retaining less and less money uh while retaining my happiness. Um because my happiness. Um because my happiness. Um because I'm not at the beginning of my career. I'm not at the beginning of my career. I'm not at the beginning of my career. I'm not I'm not fighting, you know, to I'm not I'm not fighting, you know, to I'm not I'm not fighting, you know, to to level up. I am very fortunate in the to level up. I am very fortunate in the to level up. I am very fortunate in the choices that I made. Um and it has given choices that I made. Um and it has given choices that I made. Um and it has given me a lot of opportunity to and has put me a lot of opportunity to and has put me a lot of opportunity to and has put me in this position where I have the me in this position where I have the me in this position where I have the ability to to take this hardline stance.

ability to to take this hardline stance. ability to to take this hardline stance. Uh a lot of people aren't in that. Uh a lot of people aren't in that. Uh a lot of people aren't in that. Ultimately though, I have a hard time Ultimately though, I have a hard time Ultimately though, I have a hard time believing that that will be the case. Um believing that that will be the case. Um believing that that will be the case. Um I mean the there's constantly studies I mean the there's constantly studies I mean the there's constantly studies being going on about um you know how being going on about um you know how being going on about um you know how like how the LLMs basically like how the LLMs basically like how the LLMs basically are going to grow over time right so are going to grow over time right so are going to grow over time right so they're based on what is essentially they're based on what is essentially they're based on what is essentially the collective work of humanity let's the collective work of humanity let's the collective work of humanity let's say from prior to 2022 say from prior to 2022 say from prior to 2022 um there's a study from oh I probably um there's a study from oh I probably um there's a study from oh I probably should have looked this up before but I should have looked this up before but I should have looked this up before but I want to say Harvard but um it's want to say Harvard but um it's want to say Harvard but um it's basically a uh it's certainty that when basically a uh it's certainty that when basically a uh it's certainty that when models are fed the data that they output models are fed the data that they output models are fed the data that they output back into themselves for training, um back into themselves for training, um back into themselves for training, um it's a certainty that that that will it's a certainty that that that will it's a certainty that that that will cause collapse. The model will will cause collapse. The model will will cause collapse. The model will will collapse and it'll be unsustainable. And collapse and it'll be unsustainable. And collapse and it'll be unsustainable. And so it's an impossib it's either we just so it's an impossib it's either we just so it's an impossib it's either we just say that we're never going to get better say that we're never going to get better say that we're never going to get better as developers. This is the level of as developers. This is the level of as developers. This is the level of quality that software will always be at quality that software will always be at quality that software will always be at and the code that comes out of LMS will and the code that comes out of LMS will and the code that comes out of LMS will just be what we accept.

just be what we accept. just be what we accept. or someone has to like build new things or someone has to like build new things or someone has to like build new things by themselves. Um, LLM are also not by themselves. Um, LLM are also not by themselves. Um, LLM are also not thinking. They're not intelligent. They thinking. They're not intelligent. They thinking. They're not intelligent. They can't they can't reason. They don't know can't they can't reason. They don't know can't they can't reason. They don't know why they make the choices that they do. why they make the choices that they do. why they make the choices that they do. It's uh it's all bottoms out in, you It's uh it's all bottoms out in, you It's uh it's all bottoms out in, you know, statistics essentially. I don't know, statistics essentially. I don't know, statistics essentially. I don't think I'm worried about it. It it's think I'm worried about it. It it's think I'm worried about it. It it's already at a scary good place. Um, but already at a scary good place. Um, but already at a scary good place. Um, but it's also it's also it's also it's like deterministically it's like deterministically it's like deterministically indeterminate where like um it's always indeterminate where like um it's always indeterminate where like um it's always going to write bugs because going to write bugs because going to write bugs because statistically, you know, since it's a statistically, you know, since it's a statistically, you know, since it's a statistics-based statistics-based statistics-based solution, then the things that it output solution, then the things that it output solution, then the things that it output will not 100% be perfect every single will not 100% be perfect every single will not 100% be perfect every single time. I mean, we've all copied code from time. I mean, we've all copied code from time. I mean, we've all copied code from Stack Overflow uh that has contained Stack Overflow uh that has contained Stack Overflow uh that has contained bugs. Some of the most upvoted answers bugs. Some of the most upvoted answers bugs. Some of the most upvoted answers on Stack Overflow have very subtle bugs on Stack Overflow have very subtle bugs on Stack Overflow have very subtle bugs in them. uh and yeah you the code you in them. uh and yeah you the code you in them. uh and yeah you the code you get out ultimately still is going to get out ultimately still is going to get out ultimately still is going to need you know debugged and yeah I don't need you know debugged and yeah I don't need you know debugged and yeah I don't believe that it will ever be the case believe that it will ever be the case believe that it will ever be the case where there's not a place that will have where there's not a place that will have where there's not a place that will have someone that just programs someone that just programs someone that just programs cotlin originated as a Java boilerplate cotlin originated as a Java boilerplate cotlin originated as a Java boilerplate killer and we know that AI is good at killer and we know that AI is good at killer and we know that AI is good at writing boiler plate humans don't need writing boiler plate humans don't need writing boiler plate humans don't need to suffer anymore so hasn't AI killed to suffer anymore so hasn't AI killed to suffer anymore so hasn't AI killed Cotlin's main advantage over Java Cotlin's main advantage over Java Cotlin's main advantage over Java Brian Gats, who's the um I think he's Brian Gats, who's the um I think he's Brian Gats, who's the um I think he's now the lead language designer of Java, now the lead language designer of Java, now the lead language designer of Java, basically reiterates this over and over

basically reiterates this over and over basically reiterates this over and over that code is read 10 times more than that code is read 10 times more than that code is read 10 times more than it's written. Um I don't really think it's written. Um I don't really think it's written. Um I don't really think that the like act of writing the code is that the like act of writing the code is that the like act of writing the code is was was ever really the hardest part. Um was was ever really the hardest part. Um was was ever really the hardest part. Um you have the part before that which is you have the part before that which is you have the part before that which is the thinking, you know, the deciding the thinking, you know, the deciding the thinking, you know, the deciding what's the right way to solve this what's the right way to solve this what's the right way to solve this problem. Where do we draw boundaries in problem. Where do we draw boundaries in problem. Where do we draw boundaries in things? How do we model this complex uh things? How do we model this complex uh things? How do we model this complex uh you know this complex thing that's part you know this complex thing that's part you know this complex thing that's part of our our business? Uh and then there's of our our business? Uh and then there's of our our business? Uh and then there's the part after there's maintaining that the part after there's maintaining that the part after there's maintaining that code over time, right? Bugs will be code over time, right? Bugs will be code over time, right? Bugs will be found. requirements change over time found. requirements change over time found. requirements change over time because either from an externality, you because either from an externality, you because either from an externality, you know, humanity evolves, politics, things know, humanity evolves, politics, things know, humanity evolves, politics, things change. You have to go in and update change. You have to go in and update change. You have to go in and update your code to reflect that or you know, your code to reflect that or you know, your code to reflect that or you know, you just your business changes and you you just your business changes and you you just your business changes and you they focus on different aspects of the they focus on different aspects of the they focus on different aspects of the product. They build new products uh and product. They build new products uh and product. They build new products uh and that code lives for a long period of that code lives for a long period of that code lives for a long period of time and gets changed. I don't think the time and gets changed. I don't think the time and gets changed. I don't think the the initial thing of like writing the the initial thing of like writing the the initial thing of like writing the boilerplate boilerplate boilerplate um is not the thing that's interesting um is not the thing that's interesting um is not the thing that's interesting to me. uh because to me. uh because to me. uh because we do I mean even early on in cotlin we we do I mean even early on in cotlin we we do I mean even early on in cotlin we like really latched on to that as you like really latched on to that as you like really latched on to that as you it's fewer characters to type you know it's fewer characters to type you know it's fewer characters to type you know we don't have to write getters and we don't have to write getters and we don't have to write getters and setters and and fields you just write setters and and fields you just write setters and and fields you just write the property you get the trailing lambda the property you get the trailing lambda the property you get the trailing lambda syntax you make these nice DSLs and I syntax you make these nice DSLs and I syntax you make these nice DSLs and I think all that is a vehicle into the

think all that is a vehicle into the think all that is a vehicle into the language um because it's it's you know language um because it's it's you know language um because it's it's you know it's an easy thing to throw up on a it's an easy thing to throw up on a it's an easy thing to throw up on a slide or on a web page but ultimately slide or on a web page but ultimately slide or on a web page but ultimately the the languages and the libraries I the the languages and the libraries I the the languages and the libraries I think lives or die as to how they think lives or die as to how they think lives or die as to how they how they allow your codebase to be how they allow your codebase to be how they allow your codebase to be effective over a long a long period of effective over a long a long period of effective over a long a long period of time and that's not just writing the time and that's not just writing the time and that's not just writing the boilerplate that's that's maintaining boilerplate that's that's maintaining boilerplate that's that's maintaining things over time which means you need to things over time which means you need to things over time which means you need to have really good tooling uh you need to have really good tooling uh you need to have really good tooling uh you need to have things things like strong type have things things like strong type have things things like strong type system and stuff only only aid that over system and stuff only only aid that over system and stuff only only aid that over time and I don't think the boilerplate time and I don't think the boilerplate time and I don't think the boilerplate thing is so much the problem um it can thing is so much the problem um it can thing is so much the problem um it can be a great way to like overcome the the be a great way to like overcome the the be a great way to like overcome the the like writer's block, you know, moment or like writer's block, you know, moment or like writer's block, you know, moment or um certainly there's no shortage of um um certainly there's no shortage of um um certainly there's no shortage of um like relatively mundane or arduous tasks like relatively mundane or arduous tasks like relatively mundane or arduous tasks that we have to do. go update these that we have to do. go update these that we have to do. go update these thousand call sites to you know point to thousand call sites to you know point to thousand call sites to you know point to the new thing that offloading that I the new thing that offloading that I the new thing that offloading that I think is is can be great but that's not think is is can be great but that's not think is is can be great but that's not really where the problems over time I really where the problems over time I really where the problems over time I think lie and where the uh the language think lie and where the uh the language think lie and where the uh the language itself actually shines. It's not so much itself actually shines. It's not so much itself actually shines. It's not so much the boilerplate thing, but but um yeah, the boilerplate thing, but but um yeah, the boilerplate thing, but but um yeah, type system tooling and all that stuff type system tooling and all that stuff type system tooling and all that stuff around it. Um because yeah, it enables around it. Um because yeah, it enables around it. Um because yeah, it enables the codebase to to evolve and grow.

the codebase to to evolve and grow. the codebase to to evolve and grow. >> Java now has records, sealed classes. It >> Java now has records, sealed classes. It >> Java now has records, sealed classes. It seems that the gap between Java and seems that the gap between Java and seems that the gap between Java and Cotlin is shrinking. Is the golden age Cotlin is shrinking. Is the golden age Cotlin is shrinking. Is the golden age of Cotlin over? of Cotlin over? of Cotlin over? >> To their credit, you know, Java hasn't >> To their credit, you know, Java hasn't >> To their credit, you know, Java hasn't sat on their laurels. They haven't they sat on their laurels. They haven't they sat on their laurels. They haven't they haven't admitted defeat or anything. And haven't admitted defeat or anything. And haven't admitted defeat or anything. And I think since some of the changes that I think since some of the changes that I think since some of the changes that they've made, moving to a six-month they've made, moving to a six-month they've made, moving to a six-month release window and focusing on having release window and focusing on having release window and focusing on having new language features be experimental new language features be experimental new language features be experimental and be able to be tested by the and be able to be tested by the and be able to be tested by the community and um certainly all the community and um certainly all the community and um certainly all the infrastructure work that they've done infrastructure work that they've done infrastructure work that they've done behind the scenes to allow them to behind the scenes to allow them to behind the scenes to allow them to revise the language more easily. I revise the language more easily. I revise the language more easily. I actually think that a lot of the actually think that a lot of the actually think that a lot of the language features that they have language features that they have language features that they have introduced are somewhat more introduced are somewhat more introduced are somewhat more thoughtfully done than Cotlin where thoughtfully done than Cotlin where thoughtfully done than Cotlin where Cotlin had to sort of shim it into you Cotlin had to sort of shim it into you Cotlin had to sort of shim it into you know ultimately if we're just focusing know ultimately if we're just focusing know ultimately if we're just focusing on the JVM Java byte code is what it on the JVM Java byte code is what it on the JVM Java byte code is what it compiles to and so when Cotlin you know compiles to and so when Cotlin you know compiles to and so when Cotlin you know really hit the scene Java 1.6 6 was the really hit the scene Java 1.6 6 was the really hit the scene Java 1.6 6 was the version of bite code that it compiled to version of bite code that it compiled to version of bite code that it compiled to and so the language features that Cotlin and so the language features that Cotlin and so the language features that Cotlin implemented had to be turned into implemented had to be turned into implemented had to be turned into compatible Java 16 bite code. The Java compatible Java 16 bite code. The Java compatible Java 16 bite code. The Java language doesn't have that problem. They language doesn't have that problem. They language doesn't have that problem. They can introduce things like records and can introduce things like records and can introduce things like records and introduce new bite codes. They can introduce new bite codes. They can introduce new bite codes. They can modify the virtual machine to suit you modify the virtual machine to suit you modify the virtual machine to suit you know the language's needs. All all of know the language's needs. All all of know the language's needs. All all of those things evolve in tandem and they those things evolve in tandem and they those things evolve in tandem and they can build this really cohesive execution can build this really cohesive execution can build this really cohesive execution of something like records. in contrast of something like records. in contrast of something like records. in contrast to data classes that have you know the

to data classes that have you know the to data classes that have you know the only thing that they can do is emit only thing that they can do is emit only thing that they can do is emit regular Java classes with regular regular Java classes with regular regular Java classes with regular methods and maybe a little bit of methods and maybe a little bit of methods and maybe a little bit of metadata. Yeah, one of the things that I metadata. Yeah, one of the things that I metadata. Yeah, one of the things that I really hope to see from Cotlin moving really hope to see from Cotlin moving really hope to see from Cotlin moving forward and over time in order to to forward and over time in order to to forward and over time in order to to stay relevant is to look at those stay relevant is to look at those stay relevant is to look at those features and you know find ways to features and you know find ways to features and you know find ways to integrate them. integrate them. integrate them. >> What does Scotland do better than Java >> What does Scotland do better than Java >> What does Scotland do better than Java >> today? I would say it's really hard to >> today? I would say it's really hard to >> today? I would say it's really hard to beat the nullability story. I mean, not beat the nullability story. I mean, not beat the nullability story. I mean, not modeling null in your type system. You modeling null in your type system. You modeling null in your type system. You know, people just that the billiond know, people just that the billiond know, people just that the billiond dollar sort of mistake is like the null dollar sort of mistake is like the null dollar sort of mistake is like the null null pointer exception, but it it null pointer exception, but it it null pointer exception, but it it actually is not the fact that their actually is not the fact that their actually is not the fact that their nulls exist because, you know, you nulls exist because, you know, you nulls exist because, you know, you always need the concept of absence. it's always need the concept of absence. it's always need the concept of absence. it's that you're not modeling it properly in that you're not modeling it properly in that you're not modeling it properly in the type system so that you're forced to the type system so that you're forced to the type system so that you're forced to reconcile with the fact that something reconcile with the fact that something reconcile with the fact that something may be optional when everything's may be optional when everything's may be optional when everything's optional and then you have the optional and then you have the optional and then you have the opportunity to ignore it and then get opportunity to ignore it and then get opportunity to ignore it and then get those failures at runtime. Cotlin those failures at runtime. Cotlin those failures at runtime. Cotlin modeling null and elevating null into modeling null and elevating null into modeling null and elevating null into the type system or or the concept of the type system or or the concept of the type system or or the concept of absence.

absence. absence. It just eliminates an entire class of It just eliminates an entire class of It just eliminates an entire class of bugs from your program. To have a bugs from your program. To have a bugs from your program. To have a category of bugs completely eliminated category of bugs completely eliminated category of bugs completely eliminated from what is otherwise, you know, a from what is otherwise, you know, a from what is otherwise, you know, a relatively simple change as a programmer relatively simple change as a programmer relatively simple change as a programmer to just putting that question mark at to just putting that question mark at to just putting that question mark at the end of your type when something's the end of your type when something's the end of your type when something's optional. Uh it's just still one of optional. Uh it's just still one of optional. Uh it's just still one of those it's just such a powerful concept. those it's just such a powerful concept. those it's just such a powerful concept. >> Cotlin and swift run mobile world today. >> Cotlin and swift run mobile world today. >> Cotlin and swift run mobile world today. Cotlin on Android, Swift on iOS. What Cotlin on Android, Swift on iOS. What Cotlin on Android, Swift on iOS. What does swift do better than cotlin? does swift do better than cotlin? does swift do better than cotlin? >> Yeah, swift I really like swift as a >> Yeah, swift I really like swift as a >> Yeah, swift I really like swift as a programming language. I feel like um in programming language. I feel like um in programming language. I feel like um in contrast to cotlin they one of the contrast to cotlin they one of the contrast to cotlin they one of the things that cotlin had to do was to have things that cotlin had to do was to have things that cotlin had to do was to have interoperability with both your existing interoperability with both your existing interoperability with both your existing Java code and targeting JVM bte code. Java code and targeting JVM bte code. Java code and targeting JVM bte code. Swift does have interoperability with Swift does have interoperability with Swift does have interoperability with Objective C, but I feel like they had a Objective C, but I feel like they had a Objective C, but I feel like they had a clean slate where they got to decide the clean slate where they got to decide the clean slate where they got to decide the the language features and capabilities the language features and capabilities the language features and capabilities that they wanted and they but they also that they wanted and they but they also that they wanted and they but they also got to decide how it was compiled got to decide how it was compiled got to decide how it was compiled because they didn't have they didn't because they didn't have they didn't because they didn't have they didn't have this like existing representation have this like existing representation have this like existing representation that they they had to to target and so that they they had to to target and so that they they had to to target and so all kinds of stuff around like the error all kinds of stuff around like the error all kinds of stuff around like the error handling in Swift is much more of a handling in Swift is much more of a handling in Swift is much more of a first class thing in the language. it it first class thing in the language. it it first class thing in the language. it it forces you to handle functions that forces you to handle functions that forces you to handle functions that potentially throw or don't throw. you potentially throw or don't throw. you potentially throw or don't throw. you can um it's forced upon you in a similar can um it's forced upon you in a similar can um it's forced upon you in a similar way that like nullability is forced upon way that like nullability is forced upon way that like nullability is forced upon you in cotlin whereas contrast that to

you in cotlin whereas contrast that to you in cotlin whereas contrast that to cotlin's way that it handles exceptions cotlin's way that it handles exceptions cotlin's way that it handles exceptions is basically that it it doesn't uh it is basically that it it doesn't uh it is basically that it it doesn't uh it you know it the JVM has its exception you know it the JVM has its exception you know it the JVM has its exception concept the Java language has the concept the Java language has the concept the Java language has the checked and unchecked exception concept checked and unchecked exception concept checked and unchecked exception concept and cotlin essentially said well you and cotlin essentially said well you and cotlin essentially said well you know we essentially have to use know we essentially have to use know we essentially have to use exceptions because it's the mechanism of exceptions because it's the mechanism of exceptions because it's the mechanism of the underlying virtual machine, but the underlying virtual machine, but the underlying virtual machine, but we're just going to take everything and we're just going to take everything and we're just going to take everything and make it unchecked. And so I'd say that's make it unchecked. And so I'd say that's make it unchecked. And so I'd say that's one of the pain points of the language one of the pain points of the language one of the pain points of the language actually is that you don't know the actually is that you don't know the actually is that you don't know the failure modes of any function that failure modes of any function that failure modes of any function that you're calling. And so the that that's you're calling. And so the that that's you're calling. And so the that that's like an ongoing thing in the Cotlin like an ongoing thing in the Cotlin like an ongoing thing in the Cotlin language evolution is how how can we language evolution is how how can we language evolution is how how can we model the failures of the potential model the failures of the potential model the failures of the potential failures of a function, right? you're failures of a function, right? you're failures of a function, right? you're parsing a string into a number that parsing a string into a number that parsing a string into a number that might fail because you know there's might fail because you know there's might fail because you know there's letters in the string or whatever. How letters in the string or whatever. How letters in the string or whatever. How do you model that in a way that every do you model that in a way that every do you model that in a way that every time you call that function, you're time you call that function, you're time you call that function, you're forced to reconcile with the fact that forced to reconcile with the fact that forced to reconcile with the fact that it might fail as opposed to just leaving it might fail as opposed to just leaving it might fail as opposed to just leaving a landmine in your codebase. In Swift, a landmine in your codebase. In Swift, a landmine in your codebase. In Swift, that function would would be marked as that function would would be marked as that function would would be marked as throwing and you would have to either throwing and you would have to either throwing and you would have to either put the bang at the call site or do like put the bang at the call site or do like put the bang at the call site or do like a safe safe version of of calling that.

a safe safe version of of calling that. a safe safe version of of calling that. And then the other thing that really And then the other thing that really And then the other thing that really stands out to me with swift is um stands out to me with swift is um stands out to me with swift is um because it's targeting you know native because it's targeting you know native because it's targeting you know native code they have like proper strrus proper code they have like proper strrus proper code they have like proper strrus proper like really dense memory representation like really dense memory representation like really dense memory representation whereas again cotlin you know every they whereas again cotlin you know every they whereas again cotlin you know every they basically built on the the JVM which basically built on the the JVM which basically built on the the JVM which everything's a class everything has everything's a class everything has everything's a class everything has fields all of those are are pointer fields all of those are are pointer fields all of those are are pointer indirections in the VM and so the memory indirections in the VM and so the memory indirections in the VM and so the memory gets sort of the memory representation gets sort of the memory representation gets sort of the memory representation of your objects gets spled out over the of your objects gets spled out over the of your objects gets spled out over the heap and you do these these pointer heap and you do these these pointer heap and you do these these pointer dreferences constantly as opposed to dreferences constantly as opposed to dreferences constantly as opposed to having these really packed dense data having these really packed dense data having these really packed dense data structures that you know can fit in the structures that you know can fit in the structures that you know can fit in the CPU cache lines and and so yeah the the CPU cache lines and and so yeah the the CPU cache lines and and so yeah the the struggle with like performance uh struggle with like performance uh struggle with like performance uh because of the underlying representation because of the underlying representation because of the underlying representation of of data I think um is another one of of data I think um is another one of of data I think um is another one that really stands out to me in contrast that really stands out to me in contrast that really stands out to me in contrast of the two languages of the two languages of the two languages >> and the other way around Cotlin do >> and the other way around Cotlin do >> and the other way around Cotlin do better than Swift.

better than Swift. better than Swift. >> That's tough. Um I feel like um I >> That's tough. Um I feel like um I >> That's tough. Um I feel like um I actually think Swift is a better actually think Swift is a better actually think Swift is a better designed language than Cotlin. Um designed language than Cotlin. Um designed language than Cotlin. Um there's not too many things that Cotlin there's not too many things that Cotlin there's not too many things that Cotlin has over Swift. Um I think the benefits has over Swift. Um I think the benefits has over Swift. Um I think the benefits are secondary. It's not necessarily the are secondary. It's not necessarily the are secondary. It's not necessarily the language itself, it's the ecosystem language itself, it's the ecosystem language itself, it's the ecosystem around it, the library ecosystem, the around it, the library ecosystem, the around it, the library ecosystem, the open source ecosystem. Certainly the open source ecosystem. Certainly the open source ecosystem. Certainly the tooling, right? The tooling in Cotlin tooling, right? The tooling in Cotlin tooling, right? The tooling in Cotlin with Intelligj and even just the build with Intelligj and even just the build with Intelligj and even just the build systems are miles better than when systems are miles better than when systems are miles better than when you're doing anything like the having to you're doing anything like the having to you're doing anything like the having to refactor things in large iOS code bases refactor things in large iOS code bases refactor things in large iOS code bases is just not fun. I mean when Xcode got is just not fun. I mean when Xcode got is just not fun. I mean when Xcode got like rename refactoring after how many like rename refactoring after how many like rename refactoring after how many years like the one of the literally like years like the one of the literally like years like the one of the literally like the first feature that Intelligj had 20 the first feature that Intelligj had 20 the first feature that Intelligj had 20 years ago and like the iOS you know years ago and like the iOS you know years ago and like the iOS you know developers are celebrating it's like I'm developers are celebrating it's like I'm developers are celebrating it's like I'm happy for you but like you could have happy for you but like you could have happy for you but like you could have had this 20 years ago. Specifically the had this 20 years ago. Specifically the had this 20 years ago. Specifically the language itself I don't think there's language itself I don't think there's language itself I don't think there's too many things that are like really too many things that are like really too many things that are like really heads and tails above Swift. it's heads and tails above Swift. it's heads and tails above Swift. it's everything else around the language that everything else around the language that everything else around the language that really makes it such an enjoyable really makes it such an enjoyable really makes it such an enjoyable experience. Uh because if you design the experience. Uh because if you design the experience. Uh because if you design the best language, but you have no story for best language, but you have no story for best language, but you have no story for tooling, for libraries, for you know, tooling, for libraries, for you know, tooling, for libraries, for you know, for static analysis, for all all the for static analysis, for all all the for static analysis, for all all the things you need to productionize a things you need to productionize a things you need to productionize a language. If you don't have a good story language. If you don't have a good story language. If you don't have a good story around that, then you know it could be around that, then you know it could be around that, then you know it could be the best language in the world, but the best language in the world, but the best language in the world, but you're just not going to get you're not you're just not going to get you're not you're just not going to get you're not going to get the adoption. And so don't going to get the adoption. And so don't going to get the adoption. And so don't get me wrong, Cotlin is a fantastic

get me wrong, Cotlin is a fantastic get me wrong, Cotlin is a fantastic language and Swift also is a fantastic language and Swift also is a fantastic language and Swift also is a fantastic language. But having all that stuff language. But having all that stuff language. But having all that stuff around Cotlin I think is what really around Cotlin I think is what really around Cotlin I think is what really elevates it to the to make it such an elevates it to the to make it such an elevates it to the to make it such an enjoyable thing. Error handling, you enjoyable thing. Error handling, you enjoyable thing. Error handling, you mentioned it failure models. Uh which mentioned it failure models. Uh which mentioned it failure models. Uh which language does the best job in terms of language does the best job in terms of language does the best job in terms of error handling in your opinion? error handling in your opinion? error handling in your opinion? >> I like >> I like >> I like Rust. I think uh a lot of the design Rust. I think uh a lot of the design Rust. I think uh a lot of the design decisions in the Rust language feel very decisions in the Rust language feel very decisions in the Rust language feel very intuitive to my brain. It's like of intuitive to my brain. It's like of intuitive to my brain. It's like of course you have represent that in the course you have represent that in the course you have represent that in the type system and of course you have to type system and of course you have to type system and of course you have to like think about ownership and borrowing like think about ownership and borrowing like think about ownership and borrowing and who's responsible for closing that and who's responsible for closing that and who's responsible for closing that file descriptor and file descriptor and file descriptor and uh that that in my brain and that and uh that that in my brain and that and uh that that in my brain and that and that's from just pain, right? That's that's from just pain, right? That's that's from just pain, right? That's from years of pain of of not having that from years of pain of of not having that from years of pain of of not having that in a language of of leaking things, in a language of of leaking things, in a language of of leaking things, leaking memory, leaking file leaking memory, leaking file leaking memory, leaking file descriptors, of getting your null descriptors, of getting your null descriptors, of getting your null pointer exceptions, having your pointer exceptions, having your pointer exceptions, having your unchecked exceptions, you know, thrown unchecked exceptions, you know, thrown unchecked exceptions, you know, thrown from a function you didn't expect to from a function you didn't expect to from a function you didn't expect to fail. Um, I you you feel that pain over fail. Um, I you you feel that pain over fail. Um, I you you feel that pain over and over again, you start to wonder, and over again, you start to wonder, and over again, you start to wonder, is there a better way? And when you look is there a better way? And when you look is there a better way? And when you look at other languages, yeah, I re I there's at other languages, yeah, I re I there's at other languages, yeah, I re I there's certainly a lot of languages doing certainly a lot of languages doing certainly a lot of languages doing different things, but um I think Rust different things, but um I think Rust different things, but um I think Rust really, it's a hard language. there's really, it's a hard language. there's really, it's a hard language. there's like a hump that you get over where the like a hump that you get over where the like a hump that you get over where the language itself starts to become language itself starts to become language itself starts to become intuitive. And I'm not there yet. I I'm intuitive. And I'm not there yet. I I'm intuitive. And I'm not there yet. I I'm not great at Rust, but the concepts of not great at Rust, but the concepts of not great at Rust, but the concepts of Rust I I want I they they align with my Rust I I want I they they align with my Rust I I want I they they align with my thinking. And so I think that um I'm not thinking. And so I think that um I'm not thinking. And so I think that um I'm not sure it's the best execution in terms of

sure it's the best execution in terms of sure it's the best execution in terms of a language because it is such a hard a language because it is such a hard a language because it is such a hard language to learn, but the way that they language to learn, but the way that they language to learn, but the way that they model and represent that stuff I think model and represent that stuff I think model and represent that stuff I think is is the best. is is the best. is is the best. >> Thank you for saying that. >> Thank you for saying that. >> Thank you for saying that. Um but we get back to cotlin where would Um but we get back to cotlin where would Um but we get back to cotlin where would you not use cotlin you not use cotlin you not use cotlin >> I do a lot of cotlin in my day job and >> I do a lot of cotlin in my day job and >> I do a lot of cotlin in my day job and that means when I do hobby things I want that means when I do hobby things I want that means when I do hobby things I want to do something very different and so uh to do something very different and so uh to do something very different and so uh a thing I've been doing lately is u a thing I've been doing lately is u a thing I've been doing lately is u microcontroller microcontroller microcontroller things uh which are very very low memory things uh which are very very low memory things uh which are very very low memory so you can use cotlin to target them um so you can use cotlin to target them um so you can use cotlin to target them um but it's just it's a little outside the but it's just it's a little outside the but it's just it's a little outside the comfort zone of the language anguage the comfort zone of the language anguage the comfort zone of the language anguage the language wants a little bit more um of language wants a little bit more um of language wants a little bit more um of like a full operating system around like a full operating system around like a full operating system around around it and so yeah for like an around it and so yeah for like an around it and so yeah for like an embedded a real low-level sort of under embedded a real low-level sort of under embedded a real low-level sort of under the hood thing um I think there's just a the hood thing um I think there's just a the hood thing um I think there's just a little too much the language is a little little too much the language is a little little too much the language is a little too big to fit in that space I'm not too big to fit in that space I'm not too big to fit in that space I'm not really a fan of using cotlin on the web really a fan of using cotlin on the web really a fan of using cotlin on the web um I think if you already have a code um I think if you already have a code um I think if you already have a code base that has cotlin and you want to re base that has cotlin and you want to re base that has cotlin and you want to re you want to you know reuse all of that you want to you know reuse all of that you want to you know reuse all of that without having to reimplement or you without having to reimplement or you without having to reimplement or you want to go for this I want a single want to go for this I want a single want to go for this I want a single source of truth for this business logic source of truth for this business logic source of truth for this business logic or something and you know you choose or something and you know you choose or something and you know you choose cotlin the fact that it can compile to cotlin the fact that it can compile to cotlin the fact that it can compile to the web is a huge advantage but if I'm the web is a huge advantage but if I'm the web is a huge advantage but if I'm sitting down and I'm trying I'm saying sitting down and I'm trying I'm saying sitting down and I'm trying I'm saying I'm going to build this you know web I'm going to build this you know web I'm going to build this you know web application I don't think it's the first application I don't think it's the first application I don't think it's the first language I would choose uh I don't think

language I would choose uh I don't think language I would choose uh I don't think the the way compose UI works on the web the the way compose UI works on the web the the way compose UI works on the web is is really respects how the web works is is really respects how the web works is is really respects how the web works Um I think if you're going to target Um I think if you're going to target Um I think if you're going to target that as a platform the if you're going that as a platform the if you're going that as a platform the if you're going to target the web as a platform and to target the web as a platform and to target the web as a platform and that's your only platform you probably that's your only platform you probably that's your only platform you probably wouldn't choose compose UI or cotlin wouldn't choose compose UI or cotlin wouldn't choose compose UI or cotlin first. Um but of course if you already first. Um but of course if you already first. Um but of course if you already have those things you know basically have those things you know basically have those things you know basically being able to flip a switch uh and take being able to flip a switch uh and take being able to flip a switch uh and take something you already have and and put something you already have and and put something you already have and and put it in those different places. It's the it in those different places. It's the it in those different places. It's the same for um like iOS. It's really the same for um like iOS. It's really the same for um like iOS. It's really the same for everything but the JVM same for everything but the JVM same for everything but the JVM honestly. Uh the fact that you can take honestly. Uh the fact that you can take honestly. Uh the fact that you can take something you already have and get it something you already have and get it something you already have and get it working on iOS is a huge huge benefit. working on iOS is a huge huge benefit. working on iOS is a huge huge benefit. When we were doing these things at Cash When we were doing these things at Cash When we were doing these things at Cash App, the idea was not to replace our iOS App, the idea was not to replace our iOS App, the idea was not to replace our iOS engineers. It was to free them up so engineers. It was to free them up so engineers. It was to free them up so that they could work on the like really that they could work on the like really that they could work on the like really really interesting parts that make the really interesting parts that make the really interesting parts that make the iOS experience, you know, good, which iOS experience, you know, good, which iOS experience, you know, good, which was the the user interface, the the was the the user interface, the the was the the user interface, the the dynamism, the animation, the dynamism, the animation, the dynamism, the animation, the interaction, the things that were interaction, the things that were interaction, the things that were specific to that platform and free them specific to that platform and free them specific to that platform and free them up from, you know, the writing the same up from, you know, the writing the same up from, you know, the writing the same code that syncs data from the server or code that syncs data from the server or code that syncs data from the server or uh, you know, implements basically the uh, you know, implements basically the uh, you know, implements basically the the back end um of an application. in the back end um of an application. in the back end um of an application. in it. So while cotlin ultimately works in it. So while cotlin ultimately works in it. So while cotlin ultimately works in all those places it can work in all all those places it can work in all all those places it can work in all those places those places those places if you're choosing if you're choosing if you're choosing um you know if you're building an iOS um you know if you're building an iOS um you know if you're building an iOS application I don't know and only an iOS application I don't know and only an iOS application I don't know and only an iOS application I don't know that you choose

application I don't know that you choose application I don't know that you choose cotlin right you make the safe bet and cotlin right you make the safe bet and cotlin right you make the safe bet and you you do something like swift and so you you do something like swift and so you you do something like swift and so um it's funny that cotlin does run um it's funny that cotlin does run um it's funny that cotlin does run almost everywhere and so it can the fact almost everywhere and so it can the fact almost everywhere and so it can the fact that it can be a choice I think is a big that it can be a choice I think is a big that it can be a choice I think is a big advantage But yeah, those I mean those advantage But yeah, those I mean those advantage But yeah, those I mean those platforms are different for a reason, platforms are different for a reason, platforms are different for a reason, right? They wouldn't exist unless they right? They wouldn't exist unless they right? They wouldn't exist unless they had something different about them. And had something different about them. And had something different about them. And so if you're if you're targeting them so if you're if you're targeting them so if you're if you're targeting them from scratch, embedded web, iOS, um or from scratch, embedded web, iOS, um or from scratch, embedded web, iOS, um or or other things like that or other things like that or other things like that and that's the only thing you're and that's the only thing you're and that's the only thing you're targeting, honoring what makes that that targeting, honoring what makes that that targeting, honoring what makes that that platform unique and different. either platform unique and different. either platform unique and different. either the you know the web is the web or the the you know the web is the web or the the you know the web is the web or the the constraints of the microcontroller the constraints of the microcontroller the constraints of the microcontroller thing or you know iOS with its its thing or you know iOS with its its thing or you know iOS with its its really rich sort of user interface really rich sort of user interface really rich sort of user interface interaction modes uh it's not the first interaction modes uh it's not the first interaction modes uh it's not the first choice I would make is it the choice I would make is it the choice I would make is it the application domain for you which application domain for you which application domain for you which actually defines the programming actually defines the programming actually defines the programming language like you mentioned like language like you mentioned like language like you mentioned like embedded programming embedded programming embedded programming what language would you reach for there what language would you reach for there what language would you reach for there >> it's tough yeah it you know choosing it >> it's tough yeah it you know choosing it >> it's tough yeah it you know choosing it for a product you're building for a for a product you're building for a for a product you're building for a company is different than what I would company is different than what I would company is different than what I would choose for me playing around as a hobby.

choose for me playing around as a hobby. choose for me playing around as a hobby. And so yeah, uh for that kind of stuff, And so yeah, uh for that kind of stuff, And so yeah, uh for that kind of stuff, uh I've been doing Rust. Um Rust is a uh I've been doing Rust. Um Rust is a uh I've been doing Rust. Um Rust is a really cool embedded story. Um there's a really cool embedded story. Um there's a really cool embedded story. Um there's a lot of libraries that make interesting lot of libraries that make interesting lot of libraries that make interesting hardware problems exposed hardware problems exposed hardware problems exposed um in the language in a in an um in the language in a in an um in the language in a in an interesting way. Um, so they basically interesting way. Um, so they basically interesting way. Um, so they basically use their their async concept uh and map use their their async concept uh and map use their their async concept uh and map that to map that to hardware. So you can that to map that to hardware. So you can that to map that to hardware. So you can essentially like await a button being essentially like await a button being essentially like await a button being pressed as opposed to having to do a pressed as opposed to having to do a pressed as opposed to having to do a polling thing yourself or setting up polling thing yourself or setting up polling thing yourself or setting up some sort of, you know, interrupt some sort of, you know, interrupt some sort of, you know, interrupt mechanism that wakes you up. Uh, you can mechanism that wakes you up. Uh, you can mechanism that wakes you up. Uh, you can essentially model that in in one line of essentially model that in in one line of essentially model that in in one line of code. And since I don't get to use Rust code. And since I don't get to use Rust code. And since I don't get to use Rust in my day-to-day and like I said, the in my day-to-day and like I said, the in my day-to-day and like I said, the language really speaks to me in in the language really speaks to me in in the language really speaks to me in in the concepts and its values, I I choose it concepts and its values, I I choose it concepts and its values, I I choose it both so that I can, you know, do the both so that I can, you know, do the both so that I can, you know, do the thing that I want to do, but also thing that I want to do, but also thing that I want to do, but also because I want to excuse to to play with because I want to excuse to to play with because I want to excuse to to play with the language. the language. the language. >> In 2020, you went back to Kashab and >> In 2020, you went back to Kashab and >> In 2020, you went back to Kashab and spent 5 years there. What did you build?

spent 5 years there. What did you build? spent 5 years there. What did you build? Yeah, the primary thing that I built Yeah, the primary thing that I built Yeah, the primary thing that I built over that time was a multiplatform over that time was a multiplatform over that time was a multiplatform solution for uh our business logic. And solution for uh our business logic. And solution for uh our business logic. And so we had this problem where we needed so we had this problem where we needed so we had this problem where we needed to update the app faster than to update the app faster than to update the app faster than essentially through the app stores. Um, essentially through the app stores. Um, essentially through the app stores. Um, and this was usually around like uh some and this was usually around like uh some and this was usually around like uh some sort of legal requirement like a a state sort of legal requirement like a a state sort of legal requirement like a a state in the US would come and say you have to in the US would come and say you have to in the US would come and say you have to change your wording of this, you know, change your wording of this, you know, change your wording of this, you know, cuz we're dealing with money. There's a cuz we're dealing with money. There's a cuz we're dealing with money. There's a whole bunch of legal stuff in place, the whole bunch of legal stuff in place, the whole bunch of legal stuff in place, the regulations that you have to follow. and regulations that you have to follow. and regulations that you have to follow. and they, you know, they would come and say, they, you know, they would come and say, they, you know, they would come and say, "You have to change change this wording "You have to change change this wording "You have to change change this wording or change how this renders in order to or change how this renders in order to or change how this renders in order to come into compliance and you have 3 days come into compliance and you have 3 days come into compliance and you have 3 days or, you know, we're going to prevent you or, you know, we're going to prevent you or, you know, we're going to prevent you from sending money in our state or, you from sending money in our state or, you from sending money in our state or, you know, whatever, fine you or all kinds of know, whatever, fine you or all kinds of know, whatever, fine you or all kinds of reasons." And so we had this need to reasons." And so we had this need to reasons." And so we had this need to tweak the app's behavior faster than we tweak the app's behavior faster than we tweak the app's behavior faster than we could. It's not impossible to do app could. It's not impossible to do app could. It's not impossible to do app store releases that fast, but having to store releases that fast, but having to store releases that fast, but having to do that all the time, having to sort of do that all the time, having to sort of do that all the time, having to sort of break your release cadence was a burden.

break your release cadence was a burden. break your release cadence was a burden. And so what we were building was a way And so what we were building was a way And so what we were building was a way to update parts of the business logic to update parts of the business logic to update parts of the business logic and user interface in the app without and user interface in the app without and user interface in the app without requiring uh an app store update. And so requiring uh an app store update. And so requiring uh an app store update. And so we evaluated a bunch of different we evaluated a bunch of different we evaluated a bunch of different technologies and ultimately settled on technologies and ultimately settled on technologies and ultimately settled on Cotlin Cotlin multiplatform. uh we were Cotlin Cotlin multiplatform. uh we were Cotlin Cotlin multiplatform. uh we were targeting uh JavaScript as the the targeting uh JavaScript as the the targeting uh JavaScript as the the primary sort of engine. So our Android primary sort of engine. So our Android primary sort of engine. So our Android and iOS apps shipped a JavaScript and iOS apps shipped a JavaScript and iOS apps shipped a JavaScript engine. We were using Compose but not engine. We were using Compose but not engine. We were using Compose but not Compose UI. So all of this logic was Compose UI. So all of this logic was Compose UI. So all of this logic was still written in Compose. It was running still written in Compose. It was running still written in Compose. It was running in the JavaScript engine. It would in the JavaScript engine. It would in the JavaScript engine. It would essentially reach out into the native essentially reach out into the native essentially reach out into the native application and like marionette the user application and like marionette the user application and like marionette the user interface to you know change how things interface to you know change how things interface to you know change how things were being rendered. And so what we were being rendered. And so what we were being rendered. And so what we could essentially do is when these you could essentially do is when these you could essentially do is when these you know requirements changed or even just know requirements changed or even just know requirements changed or even just iterating on the features week to week iterating on the features week to week iterating on the features week to week we could ship that as an update we could ship that as an update we could ship that as an update that downloaded by the clients and then that downloaded by the clients and then that downloaded by the clients and then the next time you know the the app the next time you know the the app the next time you know the the app restarted the new logic would run and restarted the new logic would run and restarted the new logic would run and you would get it's still all native you would get it's still all native you would get it's still all native views you know it felt intrinsic to the views you know it felt intrinsic to the views you know it felt intrinsic to the platform the user otherwise was platform the user otherwise was platform the user otherwise was hopefully unaware that this change was hopefully unaware that this change was hopefully unaware that this change was happening behind the scenes. Um, but happening behind the scenes. Um, but happening behind the scenes. Um, but yeah, we had this sort of indirection yeah, we had this sort of indirection yeah, we had this sort of indirection between the the UI and the business between the the UI and the business between the the UI and the business logic that could be updated out of band.

logic that could be updated out of band. logic that could be updated out of band. We focused on JavaScript because that's We focused on JavaScript because that's We focused on JavaScript because that's all there really was at the time and we all there really was at the time and we all there really was at the time and we were going to switch to web assembly at were going to switch to web assembly at were going to switch to web assembly at some point as that ecosystem is is some point as that ecosystem is is some point as that ecosystem is is spinning up and becoming more mature and spinning up and becoming more mature and spinning up and becoming more mature and becoming a a real option. becoming a a real option. becoming a a real option. uh and yeah the certainly the the from a uh and yeah the certainly the the from a uh and yeah the certainly the the from a technological perspective there were technological perspective there were technological perspective there were limitations but ultimately was very limitations but ultimately was very limitations but ultimately was very functional. A lot of the problems we ran functional. A lot of the problems we ran functional. A lot of the problems we ran into were people problems uh getting into were people problems uh getting into were people problems uh getting getting buy in from you know different getting buy in from you know different getting buy in from you know different parts of the product having churn on the parts of the product having churn on the parts of the product having churn on the the management of the project um and the management of the project um and the management of the project um and ultimately that you know it was very ultimately that you know it was very ultimately that you know it was very successful in terms of execution. we successful in terms of execution. we successful in terms of execution. we like got it done and was able we were like got it done and was able we were like got it done and was able we were able to ship this uh and it actually did able to ship this uh and it actually did able to ship this uh and it actually did it held a bunch of load like really it held a bunch of load like really it held a bunch of load like really loadbearing screens in our apps that you loadbearing screens in our apps that you loadbearing screens in our apps that you know millions of people would be know millions of people would be know millions of people would be interacting with every day. But as the interacting with every day. But as the interacting with every day. But as the company was changing around um they company was changing around um they company was changing around um they basically wanted to figure out a basically wanted to figure out a basically wanted to figure out a different approach and so that project different approach and so that project different approach and so that project got wound down but thankfully all got wound down but thankfully all got wound down but thankfully all because there was nothing specific to because there was nothing specific to because there was nothing specific to the product in it. It's all open source the product in it. It's all open source the product in it. It's all open source and so the libraries that we built are and so the libraries that we built are and so the libraries that we built are all open source the tools that kind of all open source the tools that kind of all open source the tools that kind of stuff and there were even spin-off stuff and there were even spin-off stuff and there were even spin-off libraries that that came out and um yeah libraries that that came out and um yeah libraries that that came out and um yeah they're still there and it was a really they're still there and it was a really they're still there and it was a really reward it was a really rewarding reward it was a really rewarding reward it was a really rewarding experience and because it it took you experience and because it it took you experience and because it it took you out of uh the sort of normal comfort out of uh the sort of normal comfort out of uh the sort of normal comfort zone of of cotlin it's this thing that zone of of cotlin it's this thing that zone of of cotlin it's this thing that you know you you know really well but you know you you know really well but you know you you know really well but then you're putting it in a place that's

then you're putting it in a place that's then you're putting it in a place that's very foreign inside the the JavaScript very foreign inside the the JavaScript very foreign inside the the JavaScript ecosystem and using compose without ecosystem and using compose without ecosystem and using compose without compos O UI and so um yeah it was a compos O UI and so um yeah it was a compos O UI and so um yeah it was a fantastic sort of learning experience fantastic sort of learning experience fantastic sort of learning experience and I feel like a lot of the stuff that and I feel like a lot of the stuff that and I feel like a lot of the stuff that I do today is somehow heavily is is I do today is somehow heavily is is I do today is somehow heavily is is really heavily influenced by a lot of really heavily influenced by a lot of really heavily influenced by a lot of the technology choices that we made and the technology choices that we made and the technology choices that we made and the um the libraries and stuff that we the um the libraries and stuff that we the um the libraries and stuff that we open sourced. open sourced. open sourced. >> Let's give an overview. So we are >> Let's give an overview. So we are >> Let's give an overview. So we are talking about Kotlin multiplatform KMP talking about Kotlin multiplatform KMP talking about Kotlin multiplatform KMP here. Uh what is what is it solving that here. Uh what is what is it solving that here. Uh what is what is it solving that maybe flatten and react native don't? maybe flatten and react native don't? maybe flatten and react native don't? Cotlin multiplatform is I would say it's Cotlin multiplatform is I would say it's Cotlin multiplatform is I would say it's relatively unique in the way that it relatively unique in the way that it relatively unique in the way that it decides how to target each of the decides how to target each of the decides how to target each of the platforms and so on the JVM and on platforms and so on the JVM and on platforms and so on the JVM and on Android Cotlin compiles to Java byte Android Cotlin compiles to Java byte Android Cotlin compiles to Java byte code on native so either iOS or like code on native so either iOS or like code on native so either iOS or like your your PC or um the microcontroller your your PC or um the microcontroller your your PC or um the microcontroller thing it uses LVM to compile to like thing it uses LVM to compile to like thing it uses LVM to compile to like proper native code and on the web. It proper native code and on the web. It proper native code and on the web. It compiles to JavaScript and then now also compiles to JavaScript and then now also compiles to JavaScript and then now also the web assembly stuff is is another the web assembly stuff is is another the web assembly stuff is is another target. Uh and so it can live in each of target. Uh and so it can live in each of target. Uh and so it can live in each of these ecosystems using sort of the the these ecosystems using sort of the the these ecosystems using sort of the the like native way that code gets executed like native way that code gets executed like native way that code gets executed on them in contrast to something like on them in contrast to something like on them in contrast to something like Flutter which is it's it's written in Flutter which is it's it's written in Flutter which is it's it's written in one language but it only compiles to one language but it only compiles to one language but it only compiles to native code. It's essentially like what native code. It's essentially like what native code. It's essentially like what a game is, right? A game has its own

a game is, right? A game has its own a game is, right? A game has its own entire rendering stack. It's this native entire rendering stack. It's this native entire rendering stack. It's this native thing and you run it on any any thing and you run it on any any thing and you run it on any any platform. It has its own UI toolkit. It platform. It has its own UI toolkit. It platform. It has its own UI toolkit. It looks like the game no matter where you looks like the game no matter where you looks like the game no matter where you run it. That's essentially what Flutter run it. That's essentially what Flutter run it. That's essentially what Flutter is doing. But for for applications, it's is doing. But for for applications, it's is doing. But for for applications, it's not really honoring the what makes each not really honoring the what makes each not really honoring the what makes each of these platforms unique because it's of these platforms unique because it's of these platforms unique because it's it's removing it's removing it's removing it's removing that sort of that it's removing that sort of that it's removing that sort of that intrinsic UI toolkit element uh and and intrinsic UI toolkit element uh and and intrinsic UI toolkit element uh and and recreating it all recreating the entire recreating it all recreating the entire recreating it all recreating the entire rendering stack. And so if you're going rendering stack. And so if you're going rendering stack. And so if you're going to do that like to do that like to do that like why do we have why like why do we even why do we have why like why do we even why do we have why like why do we even have you know why do we have two have you know why do we have two have you know why do we have two platforms why or even with the web why platforms why or even with the web why platforms why or even with the web why wouldn't you just make you know a wouldn't you just make you know a wouldn't you just make you know a website and a website runs everywhere um website and a website runs everywhere um website and a website runs everywhere um so I think that that for me is a when so I think that that for me is a when so I think that that for me is a when you look at all these alternatives for you look at all these alternatives for you look at all these alternatives for sharing code um some of the largest sharing code um some of the largest sharing code um some of the largest libraries in the world that we rely on libraries in the world that we rely on libraries in the world that we rely on like SQLite like SQLite like SQLite written in C runs absolutely everywhere written in C runs absolutely everywhere written in C runs absolutely everywhere but when you want to use it somewhere on but when you want to use it somewhere on but when you want to use it somewhere on Android we take it for granted that Android we take it for granted that Android we take it for granted that somebody has already done the work to somebody has already done the work to somebody has already done the work to like reach out into native code and bind like reach out into native code and bind like reach out into native code and bind to the C library and deal with to the C library and deal with to the C library and deal with marshalling objects across that boundary marshalling objects across that boundary marshalling objects across that boundary the same thing's true for something like the same thing's true for something like the same thing's true for something like flutter and you you don't get that with flutter and you you don't get that with flutter and you you don't get that with cotlin when you run cotlin on iOS you cotlin when you run cotlin on iOS you cotlin when you run cotlin on iOS you can talk to the same objects in the same can talk to the same objects in the same can talk to the same objects in the same memory space you can you can link memory space you can you can link memory space you can you can link directly against you know libraries and directly against you know libraries and directly against you know libraries and that's all going to get compiled that's all going to get compiled that's all going to get compiled together in a single binary for the web.

together in a single binary for the web. together in a single binary for the web. You can talk to JavaScript. You can You can talk to JavaScript. You can You can talk to JavaScript. You can expose a JavaScript API and it all expose a JavaScript API and it all expose a JavaScript API and it all ultimately gets compiled into a single ultimately gets compiled into a single ultimately gets compiled into a single bundle and you know has the same bundle and you know has the same bundle and you know has the same essentially the same performance essentially the same performance essentially the same performance characteristics. characteristics. characteristics. You're not running something that's You're not running something that's You're not running something that's essentially like a foreign body um essentially like a foreign body um essentially like a foreign body um on each of these platforms. uh whereas on each of these platforms. uh whereas on each of these platforms. uh whereas yeah with flutter and uh but that's also yeah with flutter and uh but that's also yeah with flutter and uh but that's also right so that's that's cotlin right so that's that's cotlin right so that's that's cotlin multiplatform cotlin makes that choice multiplatform cotlin makes that choice multiplatform cotlin makes that choice they did the hard work to do that you they did the hard work to do that you they did the hard work to do that you know in flutter you're like in the dart know in flutter you're like in the dart know in flutter you're like in the dart ecosystem you build this giant thing and ecosystem you build this giant thing and ecosystem you build this giant thing and that goes that that giant blob goes that goes that that giant blob goes that goes that that giant blob goes everywhere with cotlin you can pick and everywhere with cotlin you can pick and everywhere with cotlin you can pick and choose how much you you want to share choose how much you you want to share choose how much you you want to share you don't have to share everything you you don't have to share everything you you don't have to share everything you can share just the things that are can share just the things that are can share just the things that are annoying to write three times or annoying to write three times or annoying to write three times or errorprone or you know whatever you take errorprone or you know whatever you take errorprone or you know whatever you take that as a smaller reusable piece and that as a smaller reusable piece and that as a smaller reusable piece and then do the native thing the you know then do the native thing the you know then do the native thing the you know so-called native thing on each platform so-called native thing on each platform so-called native thing on each platform to to give the best user experience for to to give the best user experience for to to give the best user experience for the people that happen to be on the web the people that happen to be on the web the people that happen to be on the web or happen to be on iOS where your app or happen to be on iOS where your app or happen to be on iOS where your app feels like any other app and you feels like any other app and you feels like any other app and you otherwise don't know that you know otherwise don't know that you know otherwise don't know that you know there's this this shared colon under the there's this this shared colon under the there's this this shared colon under the hood hood hood >> I watched some of your talks and it >> I watched some of your talks and it >> I watched some of your talks and it looks like you you like making jokes looks like you you like making jokes looks like you you like making jokes about React Native about React Native about React Native >> I like React Native a lot more than I >> I like React Native a lot more than I >> I like React Native a lot more than I like Flutter. I think Flutter is sort of like Flutter. I think Flutter is sort of like Flutter. I think Flutter is sort of offensive in the decisions that it offensive in the decisions that it offensive in the decisions that it makes. And there's like a really your makes. And there's like a really your makes. And there's like a really your company has to be really dysfunctional company has to be really dysfunctional company has to be really dysfunctional when you build the most popular

when you build the most popular when you build the most popular operating system in the history of the operating system in the history of the operating system in the history of the world which is Android and the most world which is Android and the most world which is Android and the most popular platform which would be Chrome popular platform which would be Chrome popular platform which would be Chrome and the web. you control both of those and the web. you control both of those and the web. you control both of those things and yet you build a third things and yet you build a third things and yet you build a third platform because platform because platform because of essentially dysfunctions of your of essentially dysfunctions of your of essentially dysfunctions of your company that that you know you would company that that you know you would company that that you know you would never see that from Apple in contrast. never see that from Apple in contrast. never see that from Apple in contrast. They would never build a competitor to They would never build a competitor to They would never build a competitor to Safari and iOS and and release that. Safari and iOS and and release that. Safari and iOS and and release that. React Native at least tries really hard React Native at least tries really hard React Native at least tries really hard to you know render using the native UI to you know render using the native UI to you know render using the native UI of each of these platforms. You can run of each of these platforms. You can run of each of these platforms. You can run your React business logic on the web and your React business logic on the web and your React business logic on the web and get your DOM elements. You run it on get your DOM elements. You run it on get your DOM elements. You run it on iOS, you get your UI views. You run it iOS, you get your UI views. You run it iOS, you get your UI views. You run it on Android, you get Android views. on Android, you get Android views. on Android, you get Android views. That's a hard thing to do. Uh, and it That's a hard thing to do. Uh, and it That's a hard thing to do. Uh, and it takes a lot of work. And I think the takes a lot of work. And I think the takes a lot of work. And I think the reason that we we as Android developers reason that we we as Android developers reason that we we as Android developers don't like it is because, you know, don't like it is because, you know, don't like it is because, you know, you're it's goes back to the thing where you're it's goes back to the thing where you're it's goes back to the thing where you're like taking away a lot of the you're like taking away a lot of the you're like taking away a lot of the things that we enjoy about working on things that we enjoy about working on things that we enjoy about working on the platform. But ultimately like at the platform. But ultimately like at the platform. But ultimately like at least the technology choices that that least the technology choices that that least the technology choices that that React Native makes honors the platforms React Native makes honors the platforms React Native makes honors the platforms in a way that it it tries really hard to in a way that it it tries really hard to in a way that it it tries really hard to give you that that native feeling give you that that native feeling give you that that native feeling experience. And you can do really good experience. And you can do really good experience. And you can do really good React Native apps. You can do really React Native apps. You can do really React Native apps. You can do really good Flutter apps, too. But at least good Flutter apps, too. But at least good Flutter apps, too. But at least with the React Native app, with the React Native app, with the React Native app, with a Flutter app, I mean, I can tell with a Flutter app, I mean, I can tell with a Flutter app, I mean, I can tell and like my mom probably couldn't tell, and like my mom probably couldn't tell, and like my mom probably couldn't tell, but I can tell. With React Native, you but I can tell. With React Native, you but I can tell. With React Native, you can absolutely fool someone because it's

can absolutely fool someone because it's can absolutely fool someone because it's just the normal UI toolkit. You can't just the normal UI toolkit. You can't just the normal UI toolkit. You can't otherwise know just from playing with it otherwise know just from playing with it otherwise know just from playing with it that it's being powered by, you know, that it's being powered by, you know, that it's being powered by, you know, JavaScript. And ultimately, the thing we JavaScript. And ultimately, the thing we JavaScript. And ultimately, the thing we built at Cache App is not that far from built at Cache App is not that far from built at Cache App is not that far from React Native. We looked at React Native. React Native. We looked at React Native. React Native. We looked at React Native. There's a lot of things we liked. There's a lot of things we liked. There's a lot of things we liked. There's a lot of things that we thought There's a lot of things that we thought There's a lot of things that we thought were the wrong decision to make. With were the wrong decision to make. With were the wrong decision to make. With React Native, you get a ton of control React Native, you get a ton of control React Native, you get a ton of control over the UI on each platform. you can over the UI on each platform. you can over the UI on each platform. you can set all these different properties to set all these different properties to set all these different properties to really tune how it renders. Uh, and for really tune how it renders. Uh, and for really tune how it renders. Uh, and for us, we like already had this design us, we like already had this design us, we like already had this design system, you know, the the all this was system, you know, the the all this was system, you know, the the all this was in place on all the code bases. And so in place on all the code bases. And so in place on all the code bases. And so what we ultimately chose to do was to what we ultimately chose to do was to what we ultimately chose to do was to really restrict how you could render really restrict how you could render really restrict how you could render from the um the shared codebase. So you from the um the shared codebase. So you from the um the shared codebase. So you would just say like this is a primary would just say like this is a primary would just say like this is a primary button. You don't know what color the button. You don't know what color the button. You don't know what color the button is. You don't know what the button is. You don't know what the button is. You don't know what the corner radius is. you don't know what corner radius is. you don't know what corner radius is. you don't know what the click or you know how the ripple on the click or you know how the ripple on the click or you know how the ripple on Android or whatever you don't get to set Android or whatever you don't get to set Android or whatever you don't get to set any of that you just say it's a button any of that you just say it's a button any of that you just say it's a button whereas on React Native you can you can whereas on React Native you can you can whereas on React Native you can you can go and you can set you know the corner go and you can set you know the corner go and you can set you know the corner radiuses and that kind of stuff so it radiuses and that kind of stuff so it radiuses and that kind of stuff so it gives you a lot of power um and so yeah gives you a lot of power um and so yeah gives you a lot of power um and so yeah you know they get you know they get you know they get we just ated them in the Android we just ated them in the Android we just ated them in the Android ecosystem because they're essentially ecosystem because they're essentially ecosystem because they're essentially compete they're competitors right and so compete they're competitors right and so compete they're competitors right and so you know you it's a friendly competition you know you it's a friendly competition you know you it's a friendly competition hopefully uh I mean it's the most hopefully uh I mean it's the most hopefully uh I mean it's the most serious thing, right? It's your your serious thing, right? It's your your serious thing, right? It's your your livelihood essentially. But um yeah, I livelihood essentially. But um yeah, I livelihood essentially. But um yeah, I do think I would much rather my be using do think I would much rather my be using do think I would much rather my be using a React Native app than using a Flutter

a React Native app than using a Flutter a React Native app than using a Flutter app. That's for sure. app. That's for sure. app. That's for sure. >> I think you're referring to Redwood, >> I think you're referring to Redwood, >> I think you're referring to Redwood, right? The multiplatform UI library and right? The multiplatform UI library and right? The multiplatform UI library and it is focused on native rendering. So it is focused on native rendering. So it is focused on native rendering. So you said what what it is, but uh what you said what what it is, but uh what you said what what it is, but uh what was the main reasoning for you behind was the main reasoning for you behind was the main reasoning for you behind this decision like being native this decision like being native this decision like being native rendering stuff? Yeah, it went back to rendering stuff? Yeah, it went back to rendering stuff? Yeah, it went back to like we still at the time and and with like we still at the time and and with like we still at the time and and with my values is I still really think that my values is I still really think that my values is I still really think that you know native UI is the best UI. Like you know native UI is the best UI. Like you know native UI is the best UI. Like I don't want I I understand why like a I don't want I I understand why like a I don't want I I understand why like a product person wants the app to look the product person wants the app to look the product person wants the app to look the same on every platform because to them same on every platform because to them same on every platform because to them it's like you know I want the user to it's like you know I want the user to it's like you know I want the user to just always know my product and be in my just always know my product and be in my just always know my product and be in my product and feel comfortable with how my product and feel comfortable with how my product and feel comfortable with how my product looks but nobody is jump not product looks but nobody is jump not product looks but nobody is jump not nobody plenty of people are jumping nobody plenty of people are jumping nobody plenty of people are jumping between platforms but in general most between platforms but in general most between platforms but in general most people are not jumping from Android to people are not jumping from Android to people are not jumping from Android to iOS to web what they're doing is they're iOS to web what they're doing is they're iOS to web what they're doing is they're on one platform and they're using, you on one platform and they're using, you on one platform and they're using, you know, 20 apps on that platform and know, 20 apps on that platform and know, 20 apps on that platform and they're jumping between apps within that they're jumping between apps within that they're jumping between apps within that platform. So, they're going from one iOS platform. So, they're going from one iOS platform. So, they're going from one iOS app to another iOS app to another iOS app to another iOS app to another iOS app to another iOS app to another iOS app or one Android to Android to app or one Android to Android to app or one Android to Android to Android. And so, consistency within the Android. And so, consistency within the Android. And so, consistency within the platform becomes the thing that really platform becomes the thing that really platform becomes the thing that really gives them comfort. When a thing when a gives them comfort. When a thing when a gives them comfort. When a thing when a button or when you know a list dragging button or when you know a list dragging button or when you know a list dragging behaves the same way across apps that behaves the same way across apps that behaves the same way across apps that gives them that comfort, that intuition gives them that comfort, that intuition gives them that comfort, that intuition that they know the behavior that's going that they know the behavior that's going that they know the behavior that's going to happen, what they can expect when

to happen, what they can expect when to happen, what they can expect when they, you know, put their finger down on they, you know, put their finger down on they, you know, put their finger down on a button, how it's going to react, how a button, how it's going to react, how a button, how it's going to react, how it's going to look, what the controls it's going to look, what the controls it's going to look, what the controls even mean, what the icons are, like all even mean, what the icons are, like all even mean, what the icons are, like all that stuff. When you're living on the that stuff. When you're living on the that stuff. When you're living on the same platform, you want to be consistent same platform, you want to be consistent same platform, you want to be consistent app to app. And so yeah, that was sort app to app. And so yeah, that was sort app to app. And so yeah, that was sort of the underlying motivation is we still of the underlying motivation is we still of the underlying motivation is we still want the UI of each of these platforms want the UI of each of these platforms want the UI of each of these platforms to be the native UI so that things can to be the native UI so that things can to be the native UI so that things can look different. But then from the look different. But then from the look different. But then from the perspective of like the the business perspective of like the the business perspective of like the the business logic that's behind it, we just we just logic that's behind it, we just we just logic that's behind it, we just we just want to say like put a button on the want to say like put a button on the want to say like put a button on the screen, put a put a toggle switch and on screen, put a put a toggle switch and on screen, put a put a toggle switch and on Android the toggle switch is you know a Android the toggle switch is you know a Android the toggle switch is you know a horizontal thing and on iOS maybe it's a horizontal thing and on iOS maybe it's a horizontal thing and on iOS maybe it's a vertical thing and uh the details of how vertical thing and uh the details of how vertical thing and uh the details of how something is rendered on each platform something is rendered on each platform something is rendered on each platform are not important to the business logic are not important to the business logic are not important to the business logic which is the thing that is shared the which is the thing that is shared the which is the thing that is shared the thing that nobody wants to reimplement thing that nobody wants to reimplement thing that nobody wants to reimplement three times. the thing that you know you three times. the thing that you know you three times. the thing that you know you go to your iOS counterpart and say well go to your iOS counterpart and say well go to your iOS counterpart and say well how do you handle this case and it turns how do you handle this case and it turns how do you handle this case and it turns out they handle it differently like out they handle it differently like out they handle it differently like that's the thing that we wanted to that's the thing that we wanted to that's the thing that we wanted to eliminate and ideally we free up the eliminate and ideally we free up the eliminate and ideally we free up the whole thing was we want to free people whole thing was we want to free people whole thing was we want to free people up to to really make the native the UI up to to really make the native the UI up to to really make the native the UI experience the best that it could be experience the best that it could be experience the best that it could be it's a big ask right it's very different it's a big ask right it's very different it's a big ask right it's very different than like a a React Native where you can than like a a React Native where you can than like a a React Native where you can just sit down and and put pixels on the just sit down and and put pixels on the just sit down and and put pixels on the screen for something like this you screen for something like this you screen for something like this you really had to of like this design system really had to of like this design system really had to of like this design system concept already built. You already had concept already built. You already had concept already built. You already had to have what what are the reusable to have what what are the reusable to have what what are the reusable components of our app, the you know the components of our app, the you know the components of our app, the you know the the sections or whatever that appear on

the sections or whatever that appear on the sections or whatever that appear on multiple screens, the the highle multiple screens, the the highle multiple screens, the the highle concepts and how do you model those in concepts and how do you model those in concepts and how do you model those in the way that that you want to expose the the way that that you want to expose the the way that that you want to expose the reusable code. It's very much not reusable code. It's very much not reusable code. It's very much not turnkey. It's not it wasn't a turnkey turnkey. It's not it wasn't a turnkey turnkey. It's not it wasn't a turnkey thing. it it we already had that upfront thing. it it we already had that upfront thing. it it we already had that upfront initial investment in building those initial investment in building those initial investment in building those things and this was there to um you know things and this was there to um you know things and this was there to um you know realize that to make to to hopefully realize that to make to to hopefully realize that to make to to hopefully improve on it but it's not necessarily a improve on it but it's not necessarily a improve on it but it's not necessarily a path I think you would pick if you were path I think you would pick if you were path I think you would pick if you were building something new because there's building something new because there's building something new because there's so much that you would have to do to so much that you would have to do to so much that you would have to do to even get that initial you know first even get that initial you know first even get that initial you know first button or whatever on the screen because button or whatever on the screen because button or whatever on the screen because you have to build up this whole design you have to build up this whole design you have to build up this whole design system concept and model it and um so system concept and model it and um so system concept and model it and um so yeah it's uh yeah it's uh yeah it's uh That was really the idea behind it. Um, That was really the idea behind it. Um, That was really the idea behind it. Um, elevating the native UI of each platform elevating the native UI of each platform elevating the native UI of each platform and allowing them to be and allowing them to be and allowing them to be similar, provide the same functionality similar, provide the same functionality similar, provide the same functionality but not necessarily render in exactly but not necessarily render in exactly but not necessarily render in exactly the same way. the same way. the same way. >> I saw it mentioned somewhere that >> I saw it mentioned somewhere that >> I saw it mentioned somewhere that Redwood is library but not a framework.

Redwood is library but not a framework. Redwood is library but not a framework. So it seems like it's an important So it seems like it's an important So it seems like it's an important decide decision. Is it? I would say in decide decision. Is it? I would say in decide decision. Is it? I would say in general that's how we we think of the general that's how we we think of the general that's how we we think of the things that we build. We want them to be things that we build. We want them to be things that we build. We want them to be a brick that gets slotted in, not a brick that gets slotted in, not a brick that gets slotted in, not necessarily the foundation on which necessarily the foundation on which necessarily the foundation on which everything is built because everything is built because everything is built because things change, right? It the the I mean things change, right? It the the I mean things change, right? It the the I mean nowadays a lot of these apps are 10, 15 nowadays a lot of these apps are 10, 15 nowadays a lot of these apps are 10, 15 years old. Uh and so, you know, we've years old. Uh and so, you know, we've years old. Uh and so, you know, we've gone through different ways of modeling gone through different ways of modeling gone through different ways of modeling reactivity. We've gone through an reactivity. We've gone through an reactivity. We've gone through an entirely different language, right? entirely different language, right? entirely different language, right? We're in a different language now than We're in a different language now than We're in a different language now than we were 15 years ago when a lot of these we were 15 years ago when a lot of these we were 15 years ago when a lot of these code bases started. Different UI code bases started. Different UI code bases started. Different UI toolkit. And so when you toolkit. And so when you toolkit. And so when you build things in a way that's the build things in a way that's the build things in a way that's the library, not the framework, library, not the framework, library, not the framework, it does shift burden onto the the person it does shift burden onto the the person it does shift burden onto the the person consuming it because it's not, you know, consuming it because it's not, you know, consuming it because it's not, you know, drop a oneliner in your in your app or drop a oneliner in your in your app or drop a oneliner in your in your app or have all your classes extend from this have all your classes extend from this have all your classes extend from this base class kind of thing and you just base class kind of thing and you just base class kind of thing and you just get everything for free. You know, it's get everything for free. You know, it's get everything for free. You know, it's like you have to do a little bit of like you have to do a little bit of like you have to do a little bit of thinking about how this is going to fit thinking about how this is going to fit thinking about how this is going to fit into your into the rest of your into your into the rest of your into your into the rest of your codebase. And you probably have to write codebase. And you probably have to write codebase. And you probably have to write glue code that nobody really likes to to glue code that nobody really likes to to glue code that nobody really likes to to tie it in. And sometimes that doesn't tie it in. And sometimes that doesn't tie it in. And sometimes that doesn't feel well uh feel very good. But as your feel well uh feel very good. But as your feel well uh feel very good. But as your tastes change as a developer, as the tastes change as a developer, as the tastes change as a developer, as the product needs change over time, being a product needs change over time, being a product needs change over time, being a library gives you that flexibility to to library gives you that flexibility to to library gives you that flexibility to to slot in and slot out as as those things slot in and slot out as as those things slot in and slot out as as those things change. You know, maybe you

change. You know, maybe you change. You know, maybe you have a different opinion in five years have a different opinion in five years have a different opinion in five years and you say we did the wrong thing. If and you say we did the wrong thing. If and you say we did the wrong thing. If you're a framework and you're you know you're a framework and you're you know you're a framework and you're you know you're really deep tied into everything you're really deep tied into everything you're really deep tied into everything that that you know the codebase has that that you know the codebase has that that you know the codebase has evolving that to something else is a evolving that to something else is a evolving that to something else is a huge undertaking. If you're a library huge undertaking. If you're a library huge undertaking. If you're a library and you have built things in somewhat of and you have built things in somewhat of and you have built things in somewhat of a you know modular way then it's still a you know modular way then it's still a you know modular way then it's still going to be effort to do the migration going to be effort to do the migration going to be effort to do the migration but hopefully it's in a way that you but hopefully it's in a way that you but hopefully it's in a way that you know is can be done incrementally or you know is can be done incrementally or you know is can be done incrementally or you know in that specific example with know in that specific example with know in that specific example with Redwood like we were able to build that Redwood like we were able to build that Redwood like we were able to build that part of it where the JavaScript part part of it where the JavaScript part part of it where the JavaScript part where the dynamic updating part was where the dynamic updating part was where the dynamic updating part was actually totally separate. So you could actually totally separate. So you could actually totally separate. So you could run Redwood by itself completely run Redwood by itself completely run Redwood by itself completely natively and just get the design system natively and just get the design system natively and just get the design system abstraction abstraction abstraction uh and then use Cotlin multiplatform to uh and then use Cotlin multiplatform to uh and then use Cotlin multiplatform to to take your business logic and compile to take your business logic and compile to take your business logic and compile it you know natively entirely on its it you know natively entirely on its it you know natively entirely on its own. But then the the underlying own. But then the the underlying own. But then the the underlying updatable mechanism this library called updatable mechanism this library called updatable mechanism this library called zipline was separate and you could just zipline was separate and you could just zipline was separate and you could just slot that in underneath because again slot that in underneath because again slot that in underneath because again that was just another brick. It knew that was just another brick. It knew that was just another brick. It knew nothing about Redwood. Redwood knew nothing about Redwood. Redwood knew nothing about Redwood. Redwood knew nothing about zipline. Um, but then nothing about zipline. Um, but then nothing about zipline. Um, but then there had to be that glue code, right, there had to be that glue code, right, there had to be that glue code, right, that you write to to take those two that you write to to take those two that you write to to take those two bricks and turn them into something bricks and turn them into something bricks and turn them into something that's ultimately, you know, of higher that's ultimately, you know, of higher that's ultimately, you know, of higher higher value than the individual pieces higher value than the individual pieces higher value than the individual pieces on their own.

on their own. on their own. >> What's your personal coding setup? ID, >> What's your personal coding setup? ID, >> What's your personal coding setup? ID, plugins, tools. plugins, tools. plugins, tools. >> Nowadays, it's pretty spartan. It's >> Nowadays, it's pretty spartan. It's >> Nowadays, it's pretty spartan. It's vanilla Intelligj uh or Android Studio, vanilla Intelligj uh or Android Studio, vanilla Intelligj uh or Android Studio, depending on what I'm working in. depending on what I'm working in. depending on what I'm working in. Plug-inwise, very, very few. Um I have a Plug-inwise, very, very few. Um I have a Plug-inwise, very, very few. Um I have a SQL delight plugin usually which is the SQL delight plugin usually which is the SQL delight plugin usually which is the you know one of the libraries that I you know one of the libraries that I you know one of the libraries that I worked on for for doing SQL stuff. Um worked on for for doing SQL stuff. Um worked on for for doing SQL stuff. Um other than that I have a ter I have a other than that I have a ter I have a other than that I have a ter I have a terminal ghosty that I use uh outside of terminal ghosty that I use uh outside of terminal ghosty that I use uh outside of the IDE. The new terminal in the IDE is the IDE. The new terminal in the IDE is the IDE. The new terminal in the IDE is re really really good though. I just re really really good though. I just re really really good though. I just have habit of using uh a separate have habit of using uh a separate have habit of using uh a separate terminal and then uh yeah I got my terminal and then uh yeah I got my terminal and then uh yeah I got my Firefox open with you know documentation Firefox open with you know documentation Firefox open with you know documentation and those are the three things I'm alt and those are the three things I'm alt and those are the three things I'm alt tabbing between all day. tabbing between all day. tabbing between all day. >> So Firefox not Google Chrome. >> So Firefox not Google Chrome. >> So Firefox not Google Chrome. >> Oh yeah that goes back to you know the >> Oh yeah that goes back to you know the >> Oh yeah that goes back to you know the the ethics of you know in reality the the ethics of you know in reality the the ethics of you know in reality the competition of the browser market is competition of the browser market is competition of the browser market is what made Chrome Chrome. But then you what made Chrome Chrome. But then you what made Chrome Chrome. But then you know they lived long enough to see know they lived long enough to see know they lived long enough to see themselves become the villain. they they themselves become the villain. they they themselves become the villain. they they have an disproportionate market share have an disproportionate market share have an disproportionate market share and they can now essentially strongarm and they can now essentially strongarm and they can now essentially strongarm the ecosystem as opposed to the ecosystem as opposed to the ecosystem as opposed to participating in it in a more healthy participating in it in a more healthy participating in it in a more healthy way.

way. way. >> There is a quote in the cotling >> There is a quote in the cotling >> There is a quote in the cotling community when Jake Warden's code fails community when Jake Warden's code fails community when Jake Warden's code fails to compile it means there is a bug in to compile it means there is a bug in to compile it means there is a bug in the compiler. How do you live with that? the compiler. How do you live with that? the compiler. How do you live with that? >> So I have a funny story about stuff like >> So I have a funny story about stuff like >> So I have a funny story about stuff like that. Uh when I was at Google, there's a that. Uh when I was at Google, there's a that. Uh when I was at Google, there's a a subreddit that has the CSS changed so a subreddit that has the CSS changed so a subreddit that has the CSS changed so that everyone who comments, it's my that everyone who comments, it's my that everyone who comments, it's my name. Uh and what would happen is name. Uh and what would happen is name. Uh and what would happen is someone at Google who didn't know that someone at Google who didn't know that someone at Google who didn't know that this was what was happening would this was what was happening would this was what was happening would screenshot this comment that supposedly screenshot this comment that supposedly screenshot this comment that supposedly I made talking about, you know, Flutter. I made talking about, you know, Flutter. I made talking about, you know, Flutter. Well, there's plenty of comments where Well, there's plenty of comments where Well, there's plenty of comments where I'm talking about Flutter that were me, I'm talking about Flutter that were me, I'm talking about Flutter that were me, but it would be a comment that's like, but it would be a comment that's like, but it would be a comment that's like, you know, in incendiary or, you know, you know, in incendiary or, you know, you know, in incendiary or, you know, about Google products in a way that I about Google products in a way that I about Google products in a way that I should I wouldn't be speaking shouldn't should I wouldn't be speaking shouldn't should I wouldn't be speaking shouldn't be speaking about and they would report be speaking about and they would report be speaking about and they would report that to my manager. And I had had a that to my manager. And I had had a that to my manager. And I had had a conversation with my manager's manager conversation with my manager's manager conversation with my manager's manager about this thing called Reddit and how about this thing called Reddit and how about this thing called Reddit and how you can have CSS to change change these you can have CSS to change change these you can have CSS to change change these quotes. I've been very fortunate to be quotes. I've been very fortunate to be quotes. I've been very fortunate to be successful in you know a lot of these successful in you know a lot of these successful in you know a lot of these efforts for building these libraries and efforts for building these libraries and efforts for building these libraries and gain some recognition from that gain some recognition from that gain some recognition from that conference speaking as well. Um and so conference speaking as well. Um and so conference speaking as well. Um and so yeah I you know there's some people who yeah I you know there's some people who yeah I you know there's some people who like to have fun with that and I I like to have fun with that and I I like to have fun with that and I I certainly don't take issue with it.

certainly don't take issue with it. certainly don't take issue with it. >> What cotland feature annoys you the >> What cotland feature annoys you the >> What cotland feature annoys you the most? most? most? >> Historically I would have said like >> Historically I would have said like >> Historically I would have said like public by default I don't really like. public by default I don't really like. public by default I don't really like. Um, I think it should be internal by Um, I think it should be internal by Um, I think it should be internal by default. Uh, I definitely miss that from default. Uh, I definitely miss that from default. Uh, I definitely miss that from from Java. I I get the arguments for it. from Java. I I get the arguments for it. from Java. I I get the arguments for it. Um, but I and this might also be my bias Um, but I and this might also be my bias Um, but I and this might also be my bias as someone who tends to work more in as someone who tends to work more in as someone who tends to work more in libraries, um, where you need to be very libraries, um, where you need to be very libraries, um, where you need to be very careful about the public API that you careful about the public API that you careful about the public API that you expose in a library. But that's my old expose in a library. But that's my old expose in a library. But that's my old answer. My new answer we actually answer. My new answer we actually answer. My new answer we actually already touched on which is um I don't already touched on which is um I don't already touched on which is um I don't feel like the exception and error feel like the exception and error feel like the exception and error handling handling handling um was a thoughtful choice. I think that um was a thoughtful choice. I think that um was a thoughtful choice. I think that was um it was a necessary choice because was um it was a necessary choice because was um it was a necessary choice because of being built on you know having to of being built on you know having to of being built on you know having to interface with Java and being built on interface with Java and being built on interface with Java and being built on the JVM targeting targeting JVM bite the JVM targeting targeting JVM bite the JVM targeting targeting JVM bite code. You really need to model stuff code. You really need to model stuff code. You really need to model stuff correctly and have tools in your tool correctly and have tools in your tool correctly and have tools in your tool belt to be able to model the fact that belt to be able to model the fact that belt to be able to model the fact that things lots of things are fallible. And things lots of things are fallible. And things lots of things are fallible. And those cases are actually the more those cases are actually the more those cases are actually the more important cases to handle. They are important cases to handle. They are important cases to handle. They are exceptional. But behavior exceptional. But behavior exceptional. But behavior when that happens is the difference when that happens is the difference when that happens is the difference between, you know, we've all been at a a between, you know, we've all been at a a between, you know, we've all been at a a product and like none of the buttons are product and like none of the buttons are product and like none of the buttons are responding. You know, you're like trying responding. You know, you're like trying responding. You know, you're like trying to buy a ticket for the train and none to buy a ticket for the train and none to buy a ticket for the train and none of your touches are registering because of your touches are registering because of your touches are registering because you accidentally like maybe touched you accidentally like maybe touched you accidentally like maybe touched twice and some invariant threw an

twice and some invariant threw an twice and some invariant threw an exception and a background thread exception and a background thread exception and a background thread crashed or something and now the whole crashed or something and now the whole crashed or something and now the whole thing is unresponsive because they never thing is unresponsive because they never thing is unresponsive because they never thought that that could happen. And so thought that that could happen. And so thought that that could happen. And so you get this exception that has bubbled you get this exception that has bubbled you get this exception that has bubbled up from the middle of nowhere that has up from the middle of nowhere that has up from the middle of nowhere that has taken down, you know, your whole taken down, you know, your whole taken down, you know, your whole application. networks. There's like all application. networks. There's like all application. networks. There's like all of our these like mobile apps that we've of our these like mobile apps that we've of our these like mobile apps that we've historically built. Uh we're at our historically built. Uh we're at our historically built. Uh we're at our house or we're in an office. The Wi-Fi house or we're in an office. The Wi-Fi house or we're in an office. The Wi-Fi access point is 20 ft away. Uh you're access point is 20 ft away. Uh you're access point is 20 ft away. Uh you're hooked up to your, you know, fiber hooked up to your, you know, fiber hooked up to your, you know, fiber internet. Uh and realistically, when I internet. Uh and realistically, when I internet. Uh and realistically, when I use your application on the train as it use your application on the train as it use your application on the train as it goes underground and I lose, you know, I goes underground and I lose, you know, I goes underground and I lose, you know, I have intermittent cell connectivity, have intermittent cell connectivity, have intermittent cell connectivity, your whole app starts grinding to a halt your whole app starts grinding to a halt your whole app starts grinding to a halt or failing and becomes unusable. you can or failing and becomes unusable. you can or failing and becomes unusable. you can just tell me that there's no network or just tell me that there's no network or just tell me that there's no network or um you know if the in the case of the um you know if the in the case of the um you know if the in the case of the ticket thing like if you knew that that ticket thing like if you knew that that ticket thing like if you knew that that if you were forced to handle the fact if you were forced to handle the fact if you were forced to handle the fact that that could happen then you would that that could happen then you would that that could happen then you would build in mechanisms such that you you build in mechanisms such that you you build in mechanisms such that you you know restarted yourself or something and know restarted yourself or something and know restarted yourself or something and so I really want the language to model so I really want the language to model so I really want the language to model the fallibility of things the the errors the fallibility of things the the errors the fallibility of things the the errors the exceptions in a way that forces you the exceptions in a way that forces you the exceptions in a way that forces you to think about it um and especially to think about it um and especially to think about it um and especially because those things happen far away because those things happen far away because those things happen far away from each other the the the code that from each other the the the code that from each other the the the code that you're calling, you know, far away you're calling, you know, far away you're calling, you know, far away that's doing some that's doing some that's doing some network request um that that might fail network request um that that might fail network request um that that might fail at the call site. You might not know at the call site. You might not know at the call site. You might not know that underneath the hood it's calling that underneath the hood it's calling that underneath the hood it's calling out to a database or calling a you know out to a database or calling a you know out to a database or calling a you know a remote service or whatever. And so a remote service or whatever. And so a remote service or whatever. And so being forced to either decide to handle

being forced to either decide to handle being forced to either decide to handle that error somehow or propagate it up to that error somehow or propagate it up to that error somehow or propagate it up to the caller in the exact same way that we the caller in the exact same way that we the caller in the exact same way that we do with all the rest of the static do with all the rest of the static do with all the rest of the static typing uh for the happy path. I I want typing uh for the happy path. I I want typing uh for the happy path. I I want that to be in the language because I that to be in the language because I that to be in the language because I just keep you just keep getting burned just keep you just keep getting burned just keep you just keep getting burned by by exceptions and u the language by by exceptions and u the language by by exceptions and u the language hasn't done enough yet for it. But there hasn't done enough yet for it. But there hasn't done enough yet for it. But there is hope. So we'll we'll see here. is hope. So we'll we'll see here. is hope. So we'll we'll see here. >> I saw a popular Reddit post asking what >> I saw a popular Reddit post asking what >> I saw a popular Reddit post asking what was your most awful experience while was your most awful experience while was your most awful experience while using Kotlin and the top answer was using Kotlin and the top answer was using Kotlin and the top answer was Gradle. Why Gradel? Gradle. Why Gradel? Gradle. Why Gradel? >> Gradle is definitely a point of >> Gradle is definitely a point of >> Gradle is definitely a point of contention with people. I mean I feel contention with people. I mean I feel contention with people. I mean I feel like we've gotten great value out of it. like we've gotten great value out of it. like we've gotten great value out of it. Uh I have been doing Android since Uh I have been doing Android since Uh I have been doing Android since before there was Gradle and having a before there was Gradle and having a before there was Gradle and having a build system uh it was extremely build system uh it was extremely build system uh it was extremely welcome. Um, welcome. Um, welcome. Um, ultimately I think one of the problems ultimately I think one of the problems ultimately I think one of the problems with Gradel and why people get so with Gradel and why people get so with Gradel and why people get so frustrated from it was that they early frustrated from it was that they early frustrated from it was that they early on they focused on on they focused on on they focused on how easy it was to write the the build how easy it was to write the the build how easy it was to write the the build script and how sort of like cute it script and how sort of like cute it script and how sort of like cute it looked the syntax uh as opposed to looked the syntax uh as opposed to looked the syntax uh as opposed to correctness correctness correctness or performance. Uh, and they've had to or performance. Uh, and they've had to or performance. Uh, and they've had to like back their way into correctness and like back their way into correctness and like back their way into correctness and performance over the last 10 years. And performance over the last 10 years. And performance over the last 10 years. And that means that that TUR syntax that you that means that that TUR syntax that you that means that that TUR syntax that you wrote often was the inefficient syntax.

wrote often was the inefficient syntax. wrote often was the inefficient syntax. And so there's been a lot of pain, a lot And so there's been a lot of pain, a lot And so there's been a lot of pain, a lot of churn where we've had to, you know, of churn where we've had to, you know, of churn where we've had to, you know, essentially rewrite these build files essentially rewrite these build files essentially rewrite these build files incrementally over 10 years to get incrementally over 10 years to get incrementally over 10 years to get ourselves into a place where we have ourselves into a place where we have ourselves into a place where we have fast, incremental, correct, reliable, fast, incremental, correct, reliable, fast, incremental, correct, reliable, performant builds. And so that stands in performant builds. And so that stands in performant builds. And so that stands in stark contrast to, you know, a build stark contrast to, you know, a build stark contrast to, you know, a build system that focuses on like correctness system that focuses on like correctness system that focuses on like correctness and performance first, like a basil or and performance first, like a basil or and performance first, like a basil or something, but just has terrible UX is something, but just has terrible UX is something, but just has terrible UX is like a huge pain uh to write and deal like a huge pain uh to write and deal like a huge pain uh to write and deal with. And so I yeah, Gradle's pain is with. And so I yeah, Gradle's pain is with. And so I yeah, Gradle's pain is almost just like the churn, the almost just like the churn, the almost just like the churn, the necessary churn that they've had to to necessary churn that they've had to to necessary churn that they've had to to get into. You've been an Android get into. You've been an Android get into. You've been an Android developer for almost two decades. What developer for almost two decades. What developer for almost two decades. What keeps you from burning out? keeps you from burning out? keeps you from burning out? >> I do feel like in the first half of >> I do feel like in the first half of >> I do feel like in the first half of that, Android itself was constantly and that, Android itself was constantly and that, Android itself was constantly and mobile in general was really evolving mobile in general was really evolving mobile in general was really evolving and and growing into sort of the thing and and growing into sort of the thing and and growing into sort of the thing we take maybe for granted today. So we take maybe for granted today. So we take maybe for granted today. So there was a lot of opportunity within there was a lot of opportunity within there was a lot of opportunity within Android itself to learn new things, try Android itself to learn new things, try Android itself to learn new things, try new things. The every year uh you know new things. The every year uh you know new things. The every year uh you know when when IIO would happen, you'd be when when IIO would happen, you'd be when when IIO would happen, you'd be excited for all the new capabilities of excited for all the new capabilities of excited for all the new capabilities of the of the platform.

the of the platform. the of the platform. Uh, and so for a while that sustained me Uh, and so for a while that sustained me Uh, and so for a while that sustained me and then I feel like and then I feel like and then I feel like nobody told Apple or Google that like nobody told Apple or Google that like nobody told Apple or Google that like they were done with Android and iOS they were done with Android and iOS they were done with Android and iOS because in the past, you know, maybe because in the past, you know, maybe because in the past, you know, maybe 10ish years, 10ish years, 10ish years, everything new that's come out. It's everything new that's come out. It's everything new that's come out. It's almost the opposite where you the same almost the opposite where you the same almost the opposite where you the same thing with, you know, product updates. thing with, you know, product updates. thing with, you know, product updates. You you tend to feel dread like what are You you tend to feel dread like what are You you tend to feel dread like what are they going to take away from me and they going to take away from me and they going to take away from me and force me to do now? And so what I do is force me to do now? And so what I do is force me to do now? And so what I do is I turn to I turn to I turn to something else. Um I've been playing something else. Um I've been playing something else. Um I've been playing with hardware stuff. You know, I it's with hardware stuff. You know, I it's with hardware stuff. You know, I it's really nice. I think it's really really nice. I think it's really really nice. I think it's really powerful to be able to to code something powerful to be able to to code something powerful to be able to to code something up and throw it on your phone and and up and throw it on your phone and and up and throw it on your phone and and have somebody else interact with that have somebody else interact with that have somebody else interact with that and have that be fast and real. Um, but and have that be fast and real. Um, but and have that be fast and real. Um, but then like hardware is this other level then like hardware is this other level then like hardware is this other level of realism where it's it's physical uh, of realism where it's it's physical uh, of realism where it's it's physical uh, and you know it's it's tactile and it and you know it's it's tactile and it and you know it's it's tactile and it can interact with the world in ways can interact with the world in ways can interact with the world in ways other than just being a 6- in you know other than just being a 6- in you know other than just being a 6- in you know screen of pixels. That's been an avenue screen of pixels. That's been an avenue screen of pixels. That's been an avenue for me. Um, and then through that is for me. Um, and then through that is for me. Um, and then through that is also um, just looking at other also um, just looking at other also um, just looking at other languages, learning other languages. One languages, learning other languages. One languages, learning other languages. One of the things I tell people um who sort of the things I tell people um who sort of the things I tell people um who sort of ask me for you know general advice as of ask me for you know general advice as of ask me for you know general advice as to how they can grow and to how they can grow and to how they can grow and be better at Android or Cotlin or or be better at Android or Cotlin or or be better at Android or Cotlin or or whatever is to actually go learn a whatever is to actually go learn a whatever is to actually go learn a different language. Um so like when I

different language. Um so like when I different language. Um so like when I learned Swift or Rust um Zigg C you learned Swift or Rust um Zigg C you learned Swift or Rust um Zigg C you don't get proficient at it. The goal is don't get proficient at it. The goal is don't get proficient at it. The goal is not to become, you know, as capable as a not to become, you know, as capable as a not to become, you know, as capable as a developer in that other language. It's developer in that other language. It's developer in that other language. It's to open your mind to different ways of to open your mind to different ways of to open your mind to different ways of doing things. Uh, and then certainly, doing things. Uh, and then certainly, doing things. Uh, and then certainly, you know, there's languages break your you know, there's languages break your you know, there's languages break your brain even more. Uh, we were talking brain even more. Uh, we were talking brain even more. Uh, we were talking about Haskell. That's another great about Haskell. That's another great about Haskell. That's another great example of just like really teaching you example of just like really teaching you example of just like really teaching you something different about how you model something different about how you model something different about how you model things. And then you don't realize that things. And then you don't realize that things. And then you don't realize that the things that you experience as part the things that you experience as part the things that you experience as part of doing that you bring back to the of doing that you bring back to the of doing that you bring back to the language that you know you work in language that you know you work in language that you know you work in day-to-day like you know you pattern day-to-day like you know you pattern day-to-day like you know you pattern match on a problem. You're like oh like match on a problem. You're like oh like match on a problem. You're like oh like this was a thing that I experienced when this was a thing that I experienced when this was a thing that I experienced when I tried out Swift or when I was doing I tried out Swift or when I was doing I tried out Swift or when I was doing Zigg or like when I did Zigg I saw that Zigg or like when I did Zigg I saw that Zigg or like when I did Zigg I saw that they made this decision about how to they made this decision about how to they made this decision about how to handle something and I didn't like that. handle something and I didn't like that. handle something and I didn't like that. So, let's make sure that we find So, let's make sure that we find So, let's make sure that we find something different. You you bring that something different. You you bring that something different. You you bring that experience in. Um, it's it's sort of the experience in. Um, it's it's sort of the experience in. Um, it's it's sort of the thing of, you know, you you're you're thing of, you know, you you're you're thing of, you know, you you're you're culturing yourself. It's the reason why culturing yourself. It's the reason why culturing yourself. It's the reason why they force you at university to take they force you at university to take they force you at university to take history classes and, you know, to to history classes and, you know, to to history classes and, you know, to to learn math and to learn science and all learn math and to learn science and all learn math and to learn science and all these different things. it um it sort of these different things. it um it sort of these different things. it um it sort of rounds you out as an engineer and allows rounds you out as an engineer and allows rounds you out as an engineer and allows you to hopefully you to hopefully you to hopefully have these moments where you get to pull have these moments where you get to pull have these moments where you get to pull from that that knowledge. It's from that that knowledge. It's from that that knowledge. It's uncomfortable but it's exciting. I find

uncomfortable but it's exciting. I find uncomfortable but it's exciting. I find I find that you know looking into the I find that you know looking into the I find that you know looking into the unknown thing that I have it's going to unknown thing that I have it's going to unknown thing that I have it's going to be painful but I'm just going to you be painful but I'm just going to you be painful but I'm just going to you know there's thousands millions I don't know there's thousands millions I don't know there's thousands millions I don't know people of working in these other know people of working in these other know people of working in these other languages like they have done it so like languages like they have done it so like languages like they have done it so like you can do it too you just have to do you can do it too you just have to do you can do it too you just have to do the work um yeah and then just I like the work um yeah and then just I like the work um yeah and then just I like coupling that to something that is coupling that to something that is coupling that to something that is relevant for whatever I'm interested in relevant for whatever I'm interested in relevant for whatever I'm interested in right now so very concrete example we right now so very concrete example we right now so very concrete example we have a sprinkler system at our house and have a sprinkler system at our house and have a sprinkler system at our house and I absolutely hate the unit that controls I absolutely hate the unit that controls I absolutely hate the unit that controls it. Um, but it's literally just a it. Um, but it's literally just a it. Um, but it's literally just a microcontroller and like 20 relays and microcontroller and like 20 relays and microcontroller and like 20 relays and so that's like a piece of hardware that so that's like a piece of hardware that so that's like a piece of hardware that I can get and put my own software on it I can get and put my own software on it I can get and put my own software on it and write, you know, a thing and that's and write, you know, a thing and that's and write, you know, a thing and that's an excuse to learn a language that I can an excuse to learn a language that I can an excuse to learn a language that I can run on a microcontroller. It's an excuse run on a microcontroller. It's an excuse run on a microcontroller. It's an excuse to I I did a little bit of electronics to I I did a little bit of electronics to I I did a little bit of electronics when I was really really young. It's an when I was really really young. It's an when I was really really young. It's an excuse to get back and learn how to do excuse to get back and learn how to do excuse to get back and learn how to do like the most basic uh of like circuit like the most basic uh of like circuit like the most basic uh of like circuit design of just putting relays relays on design of just putting relays relays on design of just putting relays relays on a board essentially along next to a a board essentially along next to a a board essentially along next to a Raspberry Pi or something. But it's Raspberry Pi or something. But it's Raspberry Pi or something. But it's relevant to me like I have a reason I relevant to me like I have a reason I relevant to me like I have a reason I have a just a a motivation an intrinsic have a just a a motivation an intrinsic have a just a a motivation an intrinsic motivation to finish the task. And so I motivation to finish the task. And so I motivation to finish the task. And so I might not push myself to learn a a Rust might not push myself to learn a a Rust might not push myself to learn a a Rust or a Zigg with no other reason to do it or a Zigg with no other reason to do it or a Zigg with no other reason to do it even though it would be beneficial I even though it would be beneficial I even though it would be beneficial I think. But by tying it to something that think. But by tying it to something that think. But by tying it to something that I have other motivation for, it's going

I have other motivation for, it's going I have other motivation for, it's going to allow me to actually make progress. to allow me to actually make progress. to allow me to actually make progress. And then ultimately that, you know, And then ultimately that, you know, And then ultimately that, you know, becomes an entertain a source of becomes an entertain a source of becomes an entertain a source of entertainment for me, right? I it entertainment for me, right? I it entertainment for me, right? I it engages me and then I can take that back engages me and then I can take that back engages me and then I can take that back to to to what is the day-to-day job where I don't what is the day-to-day job where I don't what is the day-to-day job where I don't think Android is that interesting think Android is that interesting think Android is that interesting anymore. It's sort of a done operating anymore. It's sort of a done operating anymore. It's sort of a done operating system. Cotlin still holds my my system. Cotlin still holds my my system. Cotlin still holds my my interest. the the now that we're over um interest. the the now that we're over um interest. the the now that we're over um the K2 hump and the libraries and the K2 hump and the libraries and the K2 hump and the libraries and language team are really picking up the language team are really picking up the language team are really picking up the pace on what's being added to the pace on what's being added to the pace on what's being added to the language that that is still exciting language that that is still exciting language that that is still exciting finding something sort of tangentially finding something sort of tangentially finding something sort of tangentially related to my work because I ultimately related to my work because I ultimately related to my work because I ultimately like programming is the thing that was a like programming is the thing that was a like programming is the thing that was a hobby that became a job um and I'm fully hobby that became a job um and I'm fully hobby that became a job um and I'm fully supportive of people that do you know if supportive of people that do you know if supportive of people that do you know if you want to prevent burning out and you you want to prevent burning out and you you want to prevent burning out and you do wholly unrelated things to do wholly unrelated things to do wholly unrelated things to programming I wholeheartedly support not programming I wholeheartedly support not programming I wholeheartedly support not being on, you know, the computer uh when being on, you know, the computer uh when being on, you know, the computer uh when you're not working. But for me, um yeah, you're not working. But for me, um yeah, you're not working. But for me, um yeah, the it's still it's still a source of the it's still it's still a source of the it's still it's still a source of like delight for me. I feel like there's like delight for me. I feel like there's like delight for me. I feel like there's there's a lot that I have left to learn there's a lot that I have left to learn there's a lot that I have left to learn and but now it's going outside of uh you and but now it's going outside of uh you and but now it's going outside of uh you know, the things that I work on know, the things that I work on know, the things that I work on day-to-day to find that source of day-to-day to find that source of day-to-day to find that source of inspiration. You've mentioned many inspiration. You've mentioned many inspiration. You've mentioned many programming languages here. Do you think programming languages here. Do you think programming languages here. Do you think that it's useful for every developer to that it's useful for every developer to that it's useful for every developer to learn more than one programming learn more than one programming learn more than one programming language?

language? language? >> Definitely more than one. Uh I don't >> Definitely more than one. Uh I don't >> Definitely more than one. Uh I don't think you necessarily have to go crazy think you necessarily have to go crazy think you necessarily have to go crazy and learn five or six or something, but and learn five or six or something, but and learn five or six or something, but not being entrenched in, you know, not not being entrenched in, you know, not not being entrenched in, you know, not being just being just being just having the single programming language having the single programming language having the single programming language that you become an expert in, whatever that you become an expert in, whatever that you become an expert in, whatever language that is, is a very useful thing language that is, is a very useful thing language that is, is a very useful thing to do. But there's different programming to do. But there's different programming to do. But there's different programming languages for a reason. And so just languages for a reason. And so just languages for a reason. And so just dipping your toes in and seeing the dipping your toes in and seeing the dipping your toes in and seeing the choices that the language designers have choices that the language designers have choices that the language designers have made uh and why and then like I said, made uh and why and then like I said, made uh and why and then like I said, you know, maybe bringing that thought you know, maybe bringing that thought you know, maybe bringing that thought back to the language that that you work back to the language that that you work back to the language that that you work in. Um it's certainly not going to hurt in. Um it's certainly not going to hurt in. Um it's certainly not going to hurt you. I think it will only benefit and you. I think it will only benefit and you. I think it will only benefit and then it's weird the times when it comes then it's weird the times when it comes then it's weird the times when it comes up when you suddenly realize you're like up when you suddenly realize you're like up when you suddenly realize you're like this is that exact same problem that this is that exact same problem that this is that exact same problem that that you know language was built to that you know language was built to that you know language was built to solve. I mean we talk about Rust a lot solve. I mean we talk about Rust a lot solve. I mean we talk about Rust a lot like Rust the language was very clearly like Rust the language was very clearly like Rust the language was very clearly built to solve a lot of problems that built to solve a lot of problems that built to solve a lot of problems that like you know come up in C and C++ but like you know come up in C and C++ but like you know come up in C and C++ but that's not to say that like when I that's not to say that like when I that's not to say that like when I learned Rush Rust and focused on um learned Rush Rust and focused on um learned Rush Rust and focused on um things like ownership like I bring the things like ownership like I bring the things like ownership like I bring the concept of ownership back to Cotlin and concept of ownership back to Cotlin and concept of ownership back to Cotlin and Java and in every other language because Java and in every other language because Java and in every other language because that is such a fundamental thing like that is such a fundamental thing like that is such a fundamental thing like who is responsible for this thing that I who is responsible for this thing that I who is responsible for this thing that I just allocated when I pass it to that

just allocated when I pass it to that just allocated when I pass it to that function, can I still use it? Am I still function, can I still use it? Am I still function, can I still use it? Am I still responsible for cleaning up the responsible for cleaning up the responsible for cleaning up the resources or closing the connection or resources or closing the connection or resources or closing the connection or whatever? Or did I transfer ownership to whatever? Or did I transfer ownership to whatever? Or did I transfer ownership to that function? And a lot of these that function? And a lot of these that function? And a lot of these languages don't have ways to model that. languages don't have ways to model that. languages don't have ways to model that. uh and you can start identifying these uh and you can start identifying these uh and you can start identifying these situations where like oh this is a risky situations where like oh this is a risky situations where like oh this is a risky because we can't model this what we're because we can't model this what we're because we can't model this what we're how we're building this class or these how we're building this class or these how we're building this class or these functions or you know the parameter functions or you know the parameter functions or you know the parameter types is like risky because somebody types is like risky because somebody types is like risky because somebody could make this somebody who's not you could make this somebody who's not you could make this somebody who's not you because it's also usually not you it's because it's also usually not you it's because it's also usually not you it's the person who comes in 6 months later the person who comes in 6 months later the person who comes in 6 months later or 3 years later and refactors things or 3 years later and refactors things or 3 years later and refactors things and doesn't realize there's that and doesn't realize there's that and doesn't realize there's that implicit contract of I mean this is a implicit contract of I mean this is a implicit contract of I mean this is a very specific example but doesn't very specific example but doesn't very specific example but doesn't realize realize there's that implicit realize realize there's that implicit realize realize there's that implicit contract and they refactor the codebase, contract and they refactor the codebase, contract and they refactor the codebase, create a memory leak or, you know, close create a memory leak or, you know, close create a memory leak or, you know, close a connection too early or whatever. Um, a connection too early or whatever. Um, a connection too early or whatever. Um, and so you bring that back into how you and so you bring that back into how you and so you bring that back into how you model things in in Cotlin. You try and model things in in Cotlin. You try and model things in in Cotlin. You try and build them in a way that it's, you know, build them in a way that it's, you know, build them in a way that it's, you know, clear the ownership responsibilities, clear the ownership responsibilities, clear the ownership responsibilities, the transferring, who owns what. Uh, and the transferring, who owns what. Uh, and the transferring, who owns what. Uh, and so that that's one example. And I think so that that's one example. And I think so that that's one example. And I think almost any other language is going to almost any other language is going to almost any other language is going to teach you things about the things in teach you things about the things in teach you things about the things in your language. I you know you learn Java your language. I you know you learn Java your language. I you know you learn Java cotlin you don't really think about we cotlin you don't really think about we cotlin you don't really think about we talked about like the data layout stuff talked about like the data layout stuff talked about like the data layout stuff you don't really think about how data you don't really think about how data you don't really think about how data sort of gets to the code that's sort of gets to the code that's sort of gets to the code that's executing uh and then you go do executing uh and then you go do executing uh and then you go do something like a a C or zig or certainly something like a a C or zig or certainly something like a a C or zig or certainly rust or swift or any of these languages

rust or swift or any of these languages rust or swift or any of these languages where you can have these really packed where you can have these really packed where you can have these really packed data structures where you're utilizing data structures where you're utilizing data structures where you're utilizing every single bit and that fits in you every single bit and that fits in you every single bit and that fits in you know you could fit multiple in a cache know you could fit multiple in a cache know you could fit multiple in a cache line and that's why that language is line and that's why that language is line and that's why that language is eight times faster than the language eight times faster than the language eight times faster than the language you're working in because you're all you're working in because you're all you're working in because you're all you're over there chasing pointers and you're over there chasing pointers and you're over there chasing pointers and having all these cache misses. Um, so having all these cache misses. Um, so having all these cache misses. Um, so yeah, there's there's like no shortage yeah, there's there's like no shortage yeah, there's there's like no shortage of things in other languages. And so of things in other languages. And so of things in other languages. And so again, that's why like tying it to again, that's why like tying it to again, that's why like tying it to something else that like motivates me to something else that like motivates me to something else that like motivates me to get out of that comfort zone. Like I get out of that comfort zone. Like I get out of that comfort zone. Like I need the reason to go play with Rusters need the reason to go play with Rusters need the reason to go play with Rusters or Swift or whatever. Uh, and it it or Swift or whatever. Uh, and it it or Swift or whatever. Uh, and it it doesn't it almost doesn't matter like if doesn't it almost doesn't matter like if doesn't it almost doesn't matter like if I wouldn't choose Java as a Cotlin I wouldn't choose Java as a Cotlin I wouldn't choose Java as a Cotlin developer. Obviously, you want to choose developer. Obviously, you want to choose developer. Obviously, you want to choose something that's at least going to something that's at least going to something that's at least going to challenge you a little bit and hopefully challenge you a little bit and hopefully challenge you a little bit and hopefully open up your mind to you know these new open up your mind to you know these new open up your mind to you know these new things that you otherwise wouldn't be things that you otherwise wouldn't be things that you otherwise wouldn't be exposed to. exposed to. exposed to. >> So like do you have a small borrow >> So like do you have a small borrow >> So like do you have a small borrow checker in your head when you write checker in your head when you write checker in your head when you write Cotlin? Cotlin? Cotlin? >> So I have this like list of dream >> So I have this like list of dream >> So I have this like list of dream projects, you know, if I somehow still projects, you know, if I somehow still projects, you know, if I somehow still had a salary but had no work had a salary but had no work had a salary but had no work responsibilities that I would build. Um responsibilities that I would build. Um responsibilities that I would build. Um and one of them is yeah basically trying and one of them is yeah basically trying and one of them is yeah basically trying to bring ownership to bring ownership to bring ownership into uh which you know at Cotlin Conf into uh which you know at Cotlin Conf into uh which you know at Cotlin Conf this year um there's a researcher I this year um there's a researcher I this year um there's a researcher I guess that has um a very early guess that has um a very early guess that has um a very early uh it's not even a keep it's basically uh it's not even a keep it's basically uh it's not even a keep it's basically just notes on what it would look like to just notes on what it would look like to just notes on what it would look like to start uh bringing the semantics of like start uh bringing the semantics of like start uh bringing the semantics of like ownership to uh the Cotlin language. So

ownership to uh the Cotlin language. So ownership to uh the Cotlin language. So >> cotlin with love lifetimes. >> cotlin with love lifetimes. >> cotlin with love lifetimes. >> Yeah. I mean it's it's one of those >> Yeah. I mean it's it's one of those >> Yeah. I mean it's it's one of those things that's um it feels like it should things that's um it feels like it should things that's um it feels like it should be a thing that is is explicit in the be a thing that is is explicit in the be a thing that is is explicit in the language once you once you see it and language once you once you see it and language once you once you see it and you have that moment where like it you have that moment where like it you have that moment where like it clicks or you can think back to like clicks or you can think back to like clicks or you can think back to like bugs that would be solved by having bugs that would be solved by having bugs that would be solved by having explicit ownership. In Java like there's explicit ownership. In Java like there's explicit ownership. In Java like there's this pattern where if you're given a this pattern where if you're given a this pattern where if you're given a list you do a defensive copy of it list you do a defensive copy of it list you do a defensive copy of it because all lists are mutable in Java. because all lists are mutable in Java. because all lists are mutable in Java. And so if somebody hands me a list, I And so if somebody hands me a list, I And so if somebody hands me a list, I don't know if they're immediately going don't know if they're immediately going don't know if they're immediately going to then append another element to it. to then append another element to it. to then append another element to it. And so when you receive a list, you do a And so when you receive a list, you do a And so when you receive a list, you do a defensive copy so that you avoid that. defensive copy so that you avoid that. defensive copy so that you avoid that. And that's like a whole class of problem And that's like a whole class of problem And that's like a whole class of problem that gets eliminated by by ownership. that gets eliminated by by ownership. that gets eliminated by by ownership. It's a little bit cotlin helps there It's a little bit cotlin helps there It's a little bit cotlin helps there with the mutable and readonly um list uh with the mutable and readonly um list uh with the mutable and readonly um list uh sort of split um but it's not quite sort of split um but it's not quite sort of split um but it's not quite there. um ownership like you know you there. um ownership like you know you there. um ownership like you know you give me that list and then you can't give me that list and then you can't give me that list and then you can't touch it anymore or you allow me to touch it anymore or you allow me to touch it anymore or you allow me to borrow the list and I know that you you borrow the list and I know that you you borrow the list and I know that you you know still have the ability to mutate know still have the ability to mutate know still have the ability to mutate it. So um yeah when you start seeing it. So um yeah when you start seeing it. So um yeah when you start seeing those things when your eyes are open to those things when your eyes are open to those things when your eyes are open to them then you start start seeing them them then you start start seeing them them then you start start seeing them everywhere. We've talked about your everywhere. We've talked about your everywhere. We've talked about your open-source work. How big is Cotlin in open-source work. How big is Cotlin in open-source work. How big is Cotlin in open source ecosystem today?

open source ecosystem today? open source ecosystem today? >> I think one of the really nice things >> I think one of the really nice things >> I think one of the really nice things about Cotlin is that we get to leverage about Cotlin is that we get to leverage about Cotlin is that we get to leverage the Java open source ecosystem and vice the Java open source ecosystem and vice the Java open source ecosystem and vice versa. And so there certainly were a versa. And so there certainly were a versa. And so there certainly were a subset of people that were upset when we subset of people that were upset when we subset of people that were upset when we took like OK.IO and OKHTP and rewrote took like OK.IO and OKHTP and rewrote took like OK.IO and OKHTP and rewrote them in Cotlin. them in Cotlin. them in Cotlin. They when we did that we maintained They when we did that we maintained They when we did that we maintained strict binary compatibility. So if strict binary compatibility. So if strict binary compatibility. So if somebody got the new version of OKHCP somebody got the new version of OKHCP somebody got the new version of OKHCP from a transitive dependency or you know from a transitive dependency or you know from a transitive dependency or you know somebody just bumped it or whatever your somebody just bumped it or whatever your somebody just bumped it or whatever your code should still function you know it code should still function you know it code should still function you know it will still compile and link and and work will still compile and link and and work will still compile and link and and work at runtime. But of course it has like at runtime. But of course it has like at runtime. But of course it has like the extra dependency the the Cotlin the extra dependency the the Cotlin the extra dependency the the Cotlin standard library dependency and so yeah standard library dependency and so yeah standard library dependency and so yeah there were some like purists that took there were some like purists that took there were some like purists that took issue with that and I think that so it's issue with that and I think that so it's issue with that and I think that so it's hard for me specifically to separate the hard for me specifically to separate the hard for me specifically to separate the like Java open source ecosystem and the like Java open source ecosystem and the like Java open source ecosystem and the Cotlin open source ecosystem too much. Cotlin open source ecosystem too much. Cotlin open source ecosystem too much. It starts really from like the culture It starts really from like the culture It starts really from like the culture of the the language right like the the of the the language right like the the of the the language right like the the language is entirely open source the language is entirely open source the language is entirely open source the process is entirely in the open. you can process is entirely in the open. you can process is entirely in the open. you can see how the language changes over time.

see how the language changes over time. see how the language changes over time. Uh, and I, you know, the easy comparison Uh, and I, you know, the easy comparison Uh, and I, you know, the easy comparison is something like Swift where it's much is something like Swift where it's much is something like Swift where it's much more like a here's this golden thing more like a here's this golden thing more like a here's this golden thing from, you know, the Apple developers from, you know, the Apple developers from, you know, the Apple developers once a year. Here's the, you know, new once a year. Here's the, you know, new once a year. Here's the, you know, new which like a lot of Swift actually now which like a lot of Swift actually now which like a lot of Swift actually now has transition to being in the open. has transition to being in the open. has transition to being in the open. They're sort of course correcting that. They're sort of course correcting that. They're sort of course correcting that. But initially But initially But initially um there they were very like averse to um there they were very like averse to um there they were very like averse to sort of the idea of this open- source um sort of the idea of this open- source um sort of the idea of this open- source um community around the language. There community around the language. There community around the language. There just weren't there were some open source just weren't there were some open source just weren't there were some open source libraries in Objective C um and libraries in Objective C um and libraries in Objective C um and certainly in Swift but nothing like you certainly in Swift but nothing like you certainly in Swift but nothing like you would see in you know Cotlin. As soon as would see in you know Cotlin. As soon as would see in you know Cotlin. As soon as the language became available on Android the language became available on Android the language became available on Android there was this huge outpouring of of there was this huge outpouring of of there was this huge outpouring of of open source libraries written in Cotlin. open source libraries written in Cotlin. open source libraries written in Cotlin. As soon as Cotlin became a a really As soon as Cotlin became a a really As soon as Cotlin became a a really capable target at multiplatform, you capable target at multiplatform, you capable target at multiplatform, you started seeing, you know, just swaths of started seeing, you know, just swaths of started seeing, you know, just swaths of multiplatform libraries fulfilling, you multiplatform libraries fulfilling, you multiplatform libraries fulfilling, you know, these very basic needs that you know, these very basic needs that you know, these very basic needs that you would have writing multiplatform code.

would have writing multiplatform code. would have writing multiplatform code. And I do I just think that starts from And I do I just think that starts from And I do I just think that starts from the definitely from Jet Brains and how the definitely from Jet Brains and how the definitely from Jet Brains and how the language is managed. Um, and also the language is managed. Um, and also the language is managed. Um, and also just how like the early days of the just how like the early days of the just how like the early days of the language, you know, the people who were language, you know, the people who were language, you know, the people who were there first kind of get to set the there first kind of get to set the there first kind of get to set the implicit rules that we all live by and implicit rules that we all live by and implicit rules that we all live by and if we start with a culture of putting if we start with a culture of putting if we start with a culture of putting things in the open, then that cycle sort things in the open, then that cycle sort things in the open, then that cycle sort of perpetuates itself. Um if you have a of perpetuates itself. Um if you have a of perpetuates itself. Um if you have a um a cult like a community culture where um a cult like a community culture where um a cult like a community culture where uh the language is only used in you know uh the language is only used in you know uh the language is only used in you know really serious business contexts where really serious business contexts where really serious business contexts where they're very protective about their they're very protective about their they're very protective about their interests and IP and um so nothing gets interests and IP and um so nothing gets interests and IP and um so nothing gets open source then you know that that then open source then you know that that then open source then you know that that then becomes reflected on the on the becomes reflected on the on the becomes reflected on the on the community but yeah because cotlin was community but yeah because cotlin was community but yeah because cotlin was used in these worlds that already had a used in these worlds that already had a used in these worlds that already had a ton of open- source ton of open- source ton of open- source practices and uh sort practices and uh sort practices and uh sort the Jet Brains decided to, you know, do the Jet Brains decided to, you know, do the Jet Brains decided to, you know, do everything in the open. Um, it just everything in the open. Um, it just everything in the open. Um, it just reinforces that and so yeah, it makes reinforces that and so yeah, it makes reinforces that and so yeah, it makes you know, I don't think it's the biggest you know, I don't think it's the biggest you know, I don't think it's the biggest um but it's definitely uh it's um but it's definitely uh it's um but it's definitely uh it's definitely one of the larger ones. It definitely one of the larger ones. It definitely one of the larger ones. It seems that for open source dependencies seems that for open source dependencies seems that for open source dependencies are very important. You mentioned are very important. You mentioned are very important. You mentioned dependencies here. So you depend on some dependencies here. So you depend on some dependencies here. So you depend on some other library but then there are voices other library but then there are voices other library but then there are voices that this whole idea of being dependent that this whole idea of being dependent that this whole idea of being dependent on someone else's work is kind of scary on someone else's work is kind of scary on someone else's work is kind of scary like it can be there are safety issues like it can be there are safety issues like it can be there are safety issues and I think just recently ghosty offer and I think just recently ghosty offer and I think just recently ghosty offer that you mentioned uh he just wrote his

that you mentioned uh he just wrote his that you mentioned uh he just wrote his he his take on like whenever he needs a he his take on like whenever he needs a he his take on like whenever he needs a dependency he just fks it. dependency he just fks it. dependency he just fks it. >> Yeah. and then never updates because >> Yeah. and then never updates because >> Yeah. and then never updates because that's what he needs. that's what he needs. that's what he needs. >> It's definitely a coin that has two >> It's definitely a coin that has two >> It's definitely a coin that has two sides, advantages and disadvantages. sides, advantages and disadvantages. sides, advantages and disadvantages. There's there's a lot to be gained by There's there's a lot to be gained by There's there's a lot to be gained by building on top of the work that that building on top of the work that that building on top of the work that that other people have done. Uh and I think other people have done. Uh and I think other people have done. Uh and I think it goes back and obviously and then the it goes back and obviously and then the it goes back and obviously and then the thing there's a lot to lose, right? You thing there's a lot to lose, right? You thing there's a lot to lose, right? You become you become essentially tied to, become you become essentially tied to, become you become essentially tied to, you know, that that library depending on you know, that that library depending on you know, that that library depending on how you integrate it. Um, yeah, it can how you integrate it. Um, yeah, it can how you integrate it. Um, yeah, it can feel like when they make a decision that feel like when they make a decision that feel like when they make a decision that doesn't align with how you think the doesn't align with how you think the doesn't align with how you think the library should go that it feels like a, library should go that it feels like a, library should go that it feels like a, you know, betrayal or they can have a you know, betrayal or they can have a you know, betrayal or they can have a rugpool moment where they switch to rugpool moment where they switch to rugpool moment where they switch to switch the license and, you know, try switch the license and, you know, try switch the license and, you know, try and for their for themselves try and and for their for themselves try and and for their for themselves try and make the project sustainable, but for make the project sustainable, but for make the project sustainable, but for you that was getting it for free, you you that was getting it for free, you you that was getting it for free, you know, you never even really considered know, you never even really considered know, you never even really considered that. Um, I think the problem goes back that. Um, I think the problem goes back that. Um, I think the problem goes back to the misperception of what it actually to the misperception of what it actually to the misperception of what it actually means to use an open source library. You means to use an open source library. You means to use an open source library. You need to feel responsible for it. You need to feel responsible for it. You need to feel responsible for it. You need to feel like you're um like your need to feel like you're um like your need to feel like you're um like your that code is exactly the same as the that code is exactly the same as the that code is exactly the same as the code you write day-to-day because code you write day-to-day because code you write day-to-day because ultimately all of that stuff gets ultimately all of that stuff gets ultimately all of that stuff gets bundled up and and shipped out and your bundled up and and shipped out and your bundled up and and shipped out and your your user, you know, the person who's your user, you know, the person who's your user, you know, the person who's consuming your your product or service consuming your your product or service consuming your your product or service or whatever. They don't care about what or whatever. They don't care about what or whatever. They don't care about what libraries and stuff you use. And so you libraries and stuff you use. And so you libraries and stuff you use. And so you need to be by you by using it

need to be by you by using it need to be by you by using it effectively, you can deliver those effectively, you can deliver those effectively, you can deliver those things faster. But then if you feel things faster. But then if you feel things faster. But then if you feel responsible for that code, it starts to responsible for that code, it starts to responsible for that code, it starts to become a thing that you um treat the become a thing that you um treat the become a thing that you um treat the same way as the code you would write same way as the code you would write same way as the code you would write daytoday. There's this like notion where daytoday. There's this like notion where daytoday. There's this like notion where I need to get permission to like work to I need to get permission to like work to I need to get permission to like work to contribute to an open source library at contribute to an open source library at contribute to an open source library at work. Uh, and that's just such a, it work. Uh, and that's just such a, it work. Uh, and that's just such a, it seems like such a wrong concept because seems like such a wrong concept because seems like such a wrong concept because if you didn't use the open source if you didn't use the open source if you didn't use the open source library, you would write the code that library, you would write the code that library, you would write the code that does, you know, the same thing and then does, you know, the same thing and then does, you know, the same thing and then you would be responsible for it. You you would be responsible for it. You you would be responsible for it. You would you would have to, you know, if would you would have to, you know, if would you would have to, you know, if you had to change something in it, you you had to change something in it, you you had to change something in it, you would change something in it. And so if would change something in it. And so if would change something in it. And so if you want to change the open source you want to change the open source you want to change the open source library, like it ships in your app, you library, like it ships in your app, you library, like it ships in your app, you know, just go contribute to it. It know, just go contribute to it. It know, just go contribute to it. It should just be the norm that because should just be the norm that because should just be the norm that because it's your dependency, you feel a bit of it's your dependency, you feel a bit of it's your dependency, you feel a bit of ownership over it. you feel like you ownership over it. you feel like you ownership over it. you feel like you should pay attention to what goes on in should pay attention to what goes on in should pay attention to what goes on in the same way that you pay attention to the same way that you pay attention to the same way that you pay attention to what goes on in your codebase because of what goes on in your codebase because of what goes on in your codebase because of I guess the mechanism of distribution I guess the mechanism of distribution I guess the mechanism of distribution that can be challenging because you just that can be challenging because you just that can be challenging because you just put one line in your build file and put one line in your build file and put one line in your build file and suddenly all of these things get pulled suddenly all of these things get pulled suddenly all of these things get pulled down automatically and it it can feel down automatically and it it can feel down automatically and it it can feel like it's very far away. Um, and you like it's very far away. Um, and you like it's very far away. Um, and you definitely feel like you get a lot of definitely feel like you get a lot of definitely feel like you get a lot of advantage from doing that. And then when advantage from doing that. And then when advantage from doing that. And then when you get burned, like somehow it's the you get burned, like somehow it's the you get burned, like somehow it's the open- source project's fault that, you open- source project's fault that, you open- source project's fault that, you know, they didn't understand your needs.

know, they didn't understand your needs. know, they didn't understand your needs. Um, whereas in reality, if you sort of Um, whereas in reality, if you sort of Um, whereas in reality, if you sort of took that on as more of a thing that you took that on as more of a thing that you took that on as more of a thing that you feel responsible for, for participating feel responsible for, for participating feel responsible for, for participating in, maintaining, keeping an eye on, in, maintaining, keeping an eye on, in, maintaining, keeping an eye on, ensuring it's going in the direction ensuring it's going in the direction ensuring it's going in the direction that you want, even if a project moves that you want, even if a project moves that you want, even if a project moves in a way that you don't agree with. and in a way that you don't agree with. and in a way that you don't agree with. and and um you know does something that and um you know does something that and um you know does something that doesn't meet your needs or changes doesn't meet your needs or changes doesn't meet your needs or changes something or whatever, you see it something or whatever, you see it something or whatever, you see it coming. You see it coming. You can sort coming. You see it coming. You can sort coming. You see it coming. You can sort of plan for it. You can uh deal with it of plan for it. You can uh deal with it of plan for it. You can uh deal with it over time. You can potentially stop or over time. You can potentially stop or over time. You can potentially stop or change or help the the open source change or help the the open source change or help the the open source version become a thing that works for version become a thing that works for version become a thing that works for both you and wherever the you know both you and wherever the you know both you and wherever the you know author is trying to get to. There's this author is trying to get to. There's this author is trying to get to. There's this other question I was asked um recently other question I was asked um recently other question I was asked um recently is uh do we even need libraries anymore is uh do we even need libraries anymore is uh do we even need libraries anymore if your LLM can just write you know can if your LLM can just write you know can if your LLM can just write you know can just spit out the uninteresting just spit out the uninteresting just spit out the uninteresting repetitive sort of you know foundational repetitive sort of you know foundational repetitive sort of you know foundational parts of your codebase and you work on parts of your codebase and you work on parts of your codebase and you work on you know the businessy bits um and I you know the businessy bits um and I you know the businessy bits um and I think that undersells that there's the think that undersells that there's the think that undersells that there's the value ad of just having that single code value ad of just having that single code value ad of just having that single code base that then lifts you know somebody base that then lifts you know somebody base that then lifts you know somebody fixes a weird bug that you may never hit fixes a weird bug that you may never hit fixes a weird bug that you may never hit currently or historically, but you then currently or historically, but you then currently or historically, but you then do a refactor, you know, two years later do a refactor, you know, two years later do a refactor, you know, two years later and you would have hit that bug, but and you would have hit that bug, but and you would have hit that bug, but it's already been fixed because you're it's already been fixed because you're it's already been fixed because you're using the open source version. Or using the open source version. Or using the open source version. Or somebody makes the thing 15% faster and somebody makes the thing 15% faster and somebody makes the thing 15% faster and then you're that part of your codebase then you're that part of your codebase then you're that part of your codebase is now 15% faster. It's the distribution

is now 15% faster. It's the distribution is now 15% faster. It's the distribution uh of the contribution to all of these uh of the contribution to all of these uh of the contribution to all of these different code bases. Um so yeah you if different code bases. Um so yeah you if different code bases. Um so yeah you if you focus on the advantages you focus on the advantages you focus on the advantages uh and then treat them as if it's you uh and then treat them as if it's you uh and then treat them as if it's you know treat them as the same as as the know treat them as the same as as the know treat them as the same as as the code that you otherwise you know work on code that you otherwise you know work on code that you otherwise you know work on day-to-day I think it becomes day-to-day I think it becomes day-to-day I think it becomes much easier to sort of deal with how much easier to sort of deal with how much easier to sort of deal with how they evolve over time. Since you worked they evolve over time. Since you worked they evolve over time. Since you worked on open source professionally, uh what on open source professionally, uh what on open source professionally, uh what usually motivates companies to invest in usually motivates companies to invest in usually motivates companies to invest in OSS? It can be hard to quantify the OSS? It can be hard to quantify the OSS? It can be hard to quantify the things that you get out of open source things that you get out of open source things that you get out of open source in a way that um you know makes sense on in a way that um you know makes sense on in a way that um you know makes sense on a spreadsheet or something. Um because a spreadsheet or something. Um because a spreadsheet or something. Um because yeah, it's it's extra work. Um, and it's yeah, it's it's extra work. Um, and it's yeah, it's it's extra work. Um, and it's it's not a lot of extra work, but it's a it's not a lot of extra work, but it's a it's not a lot of extra work, but it's a non-trivial amount of extra work to take non-trivial amount of extra work to take non-trivial amount of extra work to take something that something that something that is already, you know, let's say the is already, you know, let's say the is already, you know, let's say the library already exists. It's relatively library already exists. It's relatively library already exists. It's relatively sort of self-contained with a boundary. sort of self-contained with a boundary. sort of self-contained with a boundary. But, you know, as we talked about, But, you know, as we talked about, But, you know, as we talked about, documentation is usually not always that documentation is usually not always that documentation is usually not always that great. Um, maybe the level of testing great. Um, maybe the level of testing great. Um, maybe the level of testing coverage. You certainly have to build coverage. You certainly have to build coverage. You certainly have to build like the infrastructure of publishing like the infrastructure of publishing like the infrastructure of publishing and all you know there's a little and and all you know there's a little and and all you know there's a little and then maintaining um contributions and then maintaining um contributions and then maintaining um contributions and issues as they come in like it is extra issues as they come in like it is extra issues as they come in like it is extra work but then other than the fact that work but then other than the fact that work but then other than the fact that you essentially get improvements for you essentially get improvements for you essentially get improvements for free in theory you know of people free in theory you know of people free in theory you know of people contributing to the codebase it contributing to the codebase it contributing to the codebase it certainly contributes to like the certainly contributes to like the certainly contributes to like the perception of your engineering culture.

perception of your engineering culture. perception of your engineering culture. uh people can look at the open source uh people can look at the open source uh people can look at the open source code that's coming out of a company and code that's coming out of a company and code that's coming out of a company and say, "Wow, that's, you know, really high say, "Wow, that's, you know, really high say, "Wow, that's, you know, really high quality or really low quality depending quality or really low quality depending quality or really low quality depending on, you know, what the type of thing on, you know, what the type of thing on, you know, what the type of thing that you put out there." Uh hopefully that you put out there." Uh hopefully that you put out there." Uh hopefully high quality. Uh and that then can lead high quality. Uh and that then can lead high quality. Uh and that then can lead to maybe just leads. Um certainly, you to maybe just leads. Um certainly, you to maybe just leads. Um certainly, you know, Google and Facebook, know, Google and Facebook, know, Google and Facebook, a bunch of companies that had tons of a bunch of companies that had tons of a bunch of companies that had tons of open source open source open source got a ton of leads because people could got a ton of leads because people could got a ton of leads because people could see the cool things that was being built see the cool things that was being built see the cool things that was being built there. Uh not so much anymore depending there. Uh not so much anymore depending there. Uh not so much anymore depending on where you look. Um, I would say other on where you look. Um, I would say other on where you look. Um, I would say other than that, it feels good as an engineer than that, it feels good as an engineer than that, it feels good as an engineer to be able to show people what you're to be able to show people what you're to be able to show people what you're working on as opposed to just telling working on as opposed to just telling working on as opposed to just telling them what you're working on. Oh, I built them what you're working on. Oh, I built them what you're working on. Oh, I built like I built this amazing thing. It like I built this amazing thing. It like I built this amazing thing. It allows you to use this piece of allows you to use this piece of allows you to use this piece of technology in this new and interesting technology in this new and interesting technology in this new and interesting way and oh yeah, it's in our in our way and oh yeah, it's in our in our way and oh yeah, it's in our in our codebase that I have to, you know, codebase that I have to, you know, codebase that I have to, you know, two-factor off on my uh company owned two-factor off on my uh company owned two-factor off on my uh company owned laptop in order to to access or it's laptop in order to to access or it's laptop in order to to access or it's it's on GitHub. Like check out this it's on GitHub. Like check out this it's on GitHub. Like check out this stuff. Figure out how you can use it.

stuff. Figure out how you can use it. stuff. Figure out how you can use it. see if you can do something else with see if you can do something else with see if you can do something else with it. There's a level of excitement around it. There's a level of excitement around it. There's a level of excitement around that. And ultimately like being able to that. And ultimately like being able to that. And ultimately like being able to do that as an engineer makes you it's do that as an engineer makes you it's do that as an engineer makes you it's not for everyone. That's the other thing not for everyone. That's the other thing not for everyone. That's the other thing is it's I don't think you should force is it's I don't think you should force is it's I don't think you should force it. One of the things when we talked it. One of the things when we talked it. One of the things when we talked about our values of of um you know about our values of of um you know about our values of of um you know wanting companies to wanting to work at wanting companies to wanting to work at wanting companies to wanting to work at a company that has open source does open a company that has open source does open a company that has open source does open source. source. source. I don't think you need to force it. It's I don't think you need to force it. It's I don't think you need to force it. It's like we don't we have to open source like we don't we have to open source like we don't we have to open source these things so we look good as an these things so we look good as an these things so we look good as an engineering or whatever like that that's engineering or whatever like that that's engineering or whatever like that that's the wrong way to go about it. It's going the wrong way to go about it. It's going the wrong way to go about it. It's going to look disingenuous. People are going to look disingenuous. People are going to look disingenuous. People are going to you know it's it might not be to you know it's it might not be to you know it's it might not be explicit but you can kind of get that explicit but you can kind of get that explicit but you can kind of get that feeling. You sort of just know when you feeling. You sort of just know when you feeling. You sort of just know when you hit something that's like this is a nice hit something that's like this is a nice hit something that's like this is a nice reusable thing that other people could reusable thing that other people could reusable thing that other people could benefit from. um maybe they couldn't benefit from. um maybe they couldn't benefit from. um maybe they couldn't benefit from it because it's so benefit from it because it's so benefit from it because it's so specific, but it's nice to have it in specific, but it's nice to have it in specific, but it's nice to have it in the open because it doesn't, you know, the open because it doesn't, you know, the open because it doesn't, you know, hurt you at all. And that way we can hurt you at all. And that way we can hurt you at all. And that way we can show the cool things we're working on.

show the cool things we're working on. show the cool things we're working on. Um yeah, it just adds a level of like Um yeah, it just adds a level of like Um yeah, it just adds a level of like happiness to the people that find those happiness to the people that find those happiness to the people that find those that get excited about talking about that get excited about talking about that get excited about talking about what they work on. And there are what they work on. And there are what they work on. And there are certainly people that don't want to certainly people that don't want to certainly people that don't want to participate. They don't want to be seen participate. They don't want to be seen participate. They don't want to be seen publicly, you know, they don't want to publicly, you know, they don't want to publicly, you know, they don't want to have a GitHub presence to have the the have a GitHub presence to have the the have a GitHub presence to have the the responsibility and burden of like responsibility and burden of like responsibility and burden of like dealing with someone that comes and dealing with someone that comes and dealing with someone that comes and files an issue like, "Hey, you broke our files an issue like, "Hey, you broke our files an issue like, "Hey, you broke our app. You removed this feature. You did app. You removed this feature. You did app. You removed this feature. You did this thing and I don't like you for it." this thing and I don't like you for it." this thing and I don't like you for it." Uh, or here's a bunch of LLM slot PRs Uh, or here's a bunch of LLM slot PRs Uh, or here's a bunch of LLM slot PRs that you now have to deal with that you that you now have to deal with that you that you now have to deal with that you don't want. Or someone wants to take the don't want. Or someone wants to take the don't want. Or someone wants to take the library in a direction that you don't, library in a direction that you don't, library in a direction that you don't, you know, want to take it. Um, it's hard you know, want to take it. Um, it's hard you know, want to take it. Um, it's hard to have those conversations because to have those conversations because to have those conversations because that's the humanto human like figuring that's the humanto human like figuring that's the humanto human like figuring out how to talk to people. Um, there's a out how to talk to people. Um, there's a out how to talk to people. Um, there's a lot of language barrier things when lot of language barrier things when lot of language barrier things when you're in open source because you now you're in open source because you now you're in open source because you now opened yourself to the world as opposed opened yourself to the world as opposed opened yourself to the world as opposed to just people in your immediate to just people in your immediate to just people in your immediate vicinity. Um, that that can be hard. But vicinity. Um, that that can be hard. But vicinity. Um, that that can be hard. But yeah, there's a certain class of people yeah, there's a certain class of people yeah, there's a certain class of people for which that is enjoyable, for which that is enjoyable, for which that is enjoyable, entertaining, it motivates them. Um and entertaining, it motivates them. Um and entertaining, it motivates them. Um and ultimately selfishly uh when you leave ultimately selfishly uh when you leave ultimately selfishly uh when you leave the company if you open source a bunch the company if you open source a bunch the company if you open source a bunch of things you get to use it at the next of things you get to use it at the next of things you get to use it at the next company and yeah I have seen that as you company and yeah I have seen that as you company and yeah I have seen that as you know that's now my story uh all the know that's now my story uh all the know that's now my story uh all the things that I built and was able to put things that I built and was able to put things that I built and was able to put in the open I don't have to leave behind in the open I don't have to leave behind in the open I don't have to leave behind I get to use that all that work or you I get to use that all that work or you I get to use that all that work or you know some of that work at the next place know some of that work at the next place know some of that work at the next place I go I go I go >> a lot of people think that open source

>> a lot of people think that open source >> a lot of people think that open source is mostly about unpaid volunteer work. is mostly about unpaid volunteer work. is mostly about unpaid volunteer work. How much of modern OSS is actually How much of modern OSS is actually How much of modern OSS is actually funded or contract based? There's funded or contract based? There's funded or contract based? There's definitely a couple categories. I think definitely a couple categories. I think definitely a couple categories. I think a lot of open source work now is a lot of open source work now is a lot of open source work now is implicitly company sponsored by the fact implicitly company sponsored by the fact implicitly company sponsored by the fact that they will just employ the person that they will just employ the person that they will just employ the person who works on the thing full-time. Um, who works on the thing full-time. Um, who works on the thing full-time. Um, that's sort of how basically all of the that's sort of how basically all of the that's sort of how basically all of the libraries that are were on libraries that are were on libraries that are were on company organiz orgs that I've worked company organiz orgs that I've worked company organiz orgs that I've worked for came to be, right? like I worked on for came to be, right? like I worked on for came to be, right? like I worked on them during my work hours and I even them during my work hours and I even them during my work hours and I even though you know somebody's sending me though you know somebody's sending me though you know somebody's sending me features uh requests or bugs that don't features uh requests or bugs that don't features uh requests or bugs that don't actually affect our codebase I still actually affect our codebase I still actually affect our codebase I still worked on them during work hours and I worked on them during work hours and I worked on them during work hours and I think that's fine. problematic cases think that's fine. problematic cases think that's fine. problematic cases start to get with when you know it's a start to get with when you know it's a start to get with when you know it's a personal project that that I have built personal project that that I have built personal project that that I have built on the side or doesn't make sense to put on the side or doesn't make sense to put on the side or doesn't make sense to put on the you know company or or isn't tied on the you know company or or isn't tied on the you know company or or isn't tied to whatever and that then becomes to whatever and that then becomes to whatever and that then becomes loadbearing in somebody else's codebase loadbearing in somebody else's codebase loadbearing in somebody else's codebase and for me I put it in the open for all and for me I put it in the open for all and for me I put it in the open for all the reasons we talked about it's I like the reasons we talked about it's I like the reasons we talked about it's I like showing what I worked on not not telling showing what I worked on not not telling showing what I worked on not not telling I like other people being able to riff I like other people being able to riff I like other people being able to riff on it and you know potentially use it to on it and you know potentially use it to on it and you know potentially use it to great effect but great effect but great effect but It comes with a license and if you read It comes with a license and if you read It comes with a license and if you read that license, it's just the standard that license, it's just the standard that license, it's just the standard Apache license and almost all licenses Apache license and almost all licenses Apache license and almost all licenses include something like this is that you include something like this is that you include something like this is that you don't have a contract with me. There's don't have a contract with me. There's don't have a contract with me. There's there's no guarantee implicit or there's no guarantee implicit or there's no guarantee implicit or explicit about, you know, this code. And

explicit about, you know, this code. And explicit about, you know, this code. And we don't do a good job of we don't do a good job of we don't do a good job of differentiating the projects that are me differentiating the projects that are me differentiating the projects that are me doing a side project, you know, messing doing a side project, you know, messing doing a side project, you know, messing around and putting it in the open versus around and putting it in the open versus around and putting it in the open versus me at work building, you know, this me at work building, you know, this me at work building, you know, this whatever library that that gets whatever library that that gets whatever library that that gets published. And then when you have that published. And then when you have that published. And then when you have that problem in the personal repo, you are problem in the personal repo, you are problem in the personal repo, you are the single maintainer or become the single maintainer or become the single maintainer or become overwhelmed or whatever, you leave that overwhelmed or whatever, you leave that overwhelmed or whatever, you leave that company and then the project goes company and then the project goes company and then the project goes unmaintained. I don't think we have a unmaintained. I don't think we have a unmaintained. I don't think we have a good model for good model for good model for you know getting that back in a healthy you know getting that back in a healthy you know getting that back in a healthy state where you the companies who are state where you the companies who are state where you the companies who are using it who come to rely on it somehow using it who come to rely on it somehow using it who come to rely on it somehow contribute monetarily to it doesn't even contribute monetarily to it doesn't even contribute monetarily to it doesn't even have to be monetarily but it goes back have to be monetarily but it goes back have to be monetarily but it goes back to the thing I was saying about being to the thing I was saying about being to the thing I was saying about being able to contribute to open source able to contribute to open source able to contribute to open source libraries you know there's one it's one libraries you know there's one it's one libraries you know there's one it's one thing to go to a library that you use thing to go to a library that you use thing to go to a library that you use file an issue and say file an issue and say file an issue and say I I want the library to you know add I I want the library to you know add I I want the library to you know add this feature as an issue and it's a this feature as an issue and it's a this feature as an issue and it's a totally different thing to go and say I totally different thing to go and say I totally different thing to go and say I want to add this feature can I build it want to add this feature can I build it want to add this feature can I build it or will you accept contribution for it or will you accept contribution for it or will you accept contribution for it and then you do the work you know to and then you do the work you know to and then you do the work you know to build it or maybe they do the work but build it or maybe they do the work but build it or maybe they do the work but you still help out by fixing bugs you still help out by fixing bugs you still help out by fixing bugs triaging issues whatever that is a form triaging issues whatever that is a form triaging issues whatever that is a form of payment uh you're contributing time of payment uh you're contributing time of payment uh you're contributing time engineering effort uh you know you're engineering effort uh you know you're engineering effort uh you know you're unburdening the the person whose code unburdening the the person whose code unburdening the the person whose code you're relying on to work on the thing you're relying on to work on the thing you're relying on to work on the thing that you want them to work on by taking that you want them to work on by taking that you want them to work on by taking the

the the base load that exists for open source base load that exists for open source base load that exists for open source projects, taking a little bit off their projects, taking a little bit off their projects, taking a little bit off their plate. Um, and then obviously like I'd plate. Um, and then obviously like I'd plate. Um, and then obviously like I'd love to have a solution to just finding love to have a solution to just finding love to have a solution to just finding ways to get people paid for open source. ways to get people paid for open source. ways to get people paid for open source. I mean, there's projects being used by I mean, there's projects being used by I mean, there's projects being used by these massive companies built by mostly these massive companies built by mostly these massive companies built by mostly one person because, you know, they're one person because, you know, they're one person because, you know, they're they're excited about it. And it's great they're excited about it. And it's great they're excited about it. And it's great to be excited about things like that and to be excited about things like that and to be excited about things like that and to build these projects. And it feels so to build these projects. And it feels so to build these projects. And it feels so good when you see your name and like the good when you see your name and like the good when you see your name and like the list of open source libraries that these list of open source libraries that these list of open source libraries that these apps use and people come up to you at apps use and people come up to you at apps use and people come up to you at conferences and talk about how they use, conferences and talk about how they use, conferences and talk about how they use, you know, the libraries you built. But you know, the libraries you built. But you know, the libraries you built. But then you don't you're not really getting then you don't you're not really getting then you don't you're not really getting anything from that. like, you know what anything from that. like, you know what anything from that. like, you know what else would feel good is the number in my else would feel good is the number in my else would feel good is the number in my bank account going up, you know, in bank account going up, you know, in bank account going up, you know, in response to that and and that being a response to that and and that being a response to that and and that being a sustainable thing that I can do as sustainable thing that I can do as sustainable thing that I can do as opposed to having to try and squeeze it opposed to having to try and squeeze it opposed to having to try and squeeze it in on the side as trying to like steal in on the side as trying to like steal in on the side as trying to like steal time from my day-to-day work to to have time from my day-to-day work to to have time from my day-to-day work to to have time to contribute to the thing that uh time to contribute to the thing that uh time to contribute to the thing that uh other people are relying on and excited other people are relying on and excited other people are relying on and excited about, but then I now feel obligated to about, but then I now feel obligated to about, but then I now feel obligated to as opposed to excited by. Andre Brislav as opposed to excited by. Andre Brislav as opposed to excited by. Andre Brislav the creator of Kotlin left J brains in the creator of Kotlin left J brains in the creator of Kotlin left J brains in 2020. Can a language evolve without its 2020. Can a language evolve without its 2020. Can a language evolve without its original creator? I think a language has original creator? I think a language has original creator? I think a language has to outlive its original creator and also to outlive its original creator and also to outlive its original creator and also I think it's totally okay for people to I think it's totally okay for people to I think it's totally okay for people to stop working on something and go work on stop working on something and go work on stop working on something and go work on something else. So if you build something else. So if you build something else. So if you build something that gets successful and you

something that gets successful and you something that gets successful and you you know you're like I put 10 years of you know you're like I put 10 years of you know you're like I put 10 years of my life into it like like he did um and my life into it like like he did um and my life into it like like he did um and it's fantastic I want to go work on it's fantastic I want to go work on it's fantastic I want to go work on something else then you should do that something else then you should do that something else then you should do that and I think we're very fortunate that and I think we're very fortunate that and I think we're very fortunate that the language you know sur survived that the language you know sur survived that the language you know sur survived that incident not that it even was it was incident not that it even was it was incident not that it even was it was very much a non incident um which if very much a non incident um which if very much a non incident um which if anything is a testament to you know how anything is a testament to you know how anything is a testament to you know how everything was set up around the everything was set up around the everything was set up around the language but yeah Um, I I think that's a language but yeah Um, I I think that's a language but yeah Um, I I think that's a healthy thing for our language. And I healthy thing for our language. And I healthy thing for our language. And I think you'll find that almost every big think you'll find that almost every big think you'll find that almost every big successful language nowadays is not the successful language nowadays is not the successful language nowadays is not the benevolent dictator anymore. It's the, benevolent dictator anymore. It's the, benevolent dictator anymore. It's the, you know, this this shared sort of um you know, this this shared sort of um you know, this this shared sort of um organizational structure that that organizational structure that that organizational structure that that manages the language hopefully in in manages the language hopefully in in manages the language hopefully in in tandem with the community. tandem with the community. tandem with the community. >> I believe Zeke is the only example with >> I believe Zeke is the only example with >> I believe Zeke is the only example with the acting, the acting, the acting, >> but it's still very young, right? So, I >> but it's still very young, right? So, I >> but it's still very young, right? So, I think there's massive benefit to to think there's massive benefit to to think there's massive benefit to to Andrew Kelly being able to say, Andrew Kelly being able to say, Andrew Kelly being able to say, "Actually, we're going to break every "Actually, we're going to break every "Actually, we're going to break every single API in the entire codebase by single API in the entire codebase by single API in the entire codebase by introducing this new IO concept and and introducing this new IO concept and and introducing this new IO concept and and making that an explicit dependency making that an explicit dependency making that an explicit dependency rather than an implicit dependency." And rather than an implicit dependency." And rather than an implicit dependency." And you're going to have to rewrite 100% of you're going to have to rewrite 100% of you're going to have to rewrite 100% of your code, but it's what the language your code, but it's what the language your code, but it's what the language needs. And then what I would love to needs. And then what I would love to needs. And then what I would love to see, so Zigg, there's a foundation, I see, so Zigg, there's a foundation, I see, so Zigg, there's a foundation, I believe, that owns the language. What I believe, that owns the language. What I believe, that owns the language. What I would hope to see is as the language, would hope to see is as the language, would hope to see is as the language, he's talked about 1.0 when it reaches he's talked about 1.0 when it reaches he's talked about 1.0 when it reaches 1.0, I would love to see a little bit 1.0, I would love to see a little bit 1.0, I would love to see a little bit more of that responsibility become more of that responsibility become more of that responsibility become shared. If anything, just to unbburden shared. If anything, just to unbburden shared. If anything, just to unbburden him from what I assume is a herculean

him from what I assume is a herculean him from what I assume is a herculean amount of effort to get, you know, to amount of effort to get, you know, to amount of effort to get, you know, to get to that 1.0. Um, and ultimately, he get to that 1.0. Um, and ultimately, he get to that 1.0. Um, and ultimately, he could still be involved uh and and be could still be involved uh and and be could still be involved uh and and be the, you know, the final decision maker, the, you know, the final decision maker, the, you know, the final decision maker, but by spreading that load out, um, it but by spreading that load out, um, it but by spreading that load out, um, it only serves to only serves to only serves to provide stability for the language in provide stability for the language in provide stability for the language in the future. um cuz you you just never the future. um cuz you you just never the future. um cuz you you just never know what's going to happen when people know what's going to happen when people know what's going to happen when people are going to want to come and come and are going to want to come and come and are going to want to come and come and go. So yeah. go. So yeah. go. So yeah. >> Have you personally shaped Cotlin? Maybe >> Have you personally shaped Cotlin? Maybe >> Have you personally shaped Cotlin? Maybe specific features or decisions. specific features or decisions. specific features or decisions. >> I like to think I've had uh a couple >> I like to think I've had uh a couple >> I like to think I've had uh a couple nudges on things. Um, one of the ones nudges on things. Um, one of the ones nudges on things. Um, one of the ones that really excited me that I thought that really excited me that I thought that really excited me that I thought was never going to happen was the switch was never going to happen was the switch was never going to happen was the switch from uh when for a when clause to be from uh when for a when clause to be from uh when for a when clause to be become exhausted by default. So you have become exhausted by default. So you have become exhausted by default. So you have to include all of the potential cases. to include all of the potential cases. to include all of the potential cases. Um we I mean that that's again a thing Um we I mean that that's again a thing Um we I mean that that's again a thing that you see in other languages and when that you see in other languages and when that you see in other languages and when you experience it you're like that kind you experience it you're like that kind you experience it you're like that kind of makes sense. you know, if I add a new of makes sense. you know, if I add a new of makes sense. you know, if I add a new clause, if I add a new um subclass to my clause, if I add a new um subclass to my clause, if I add a new um subclass to my sealed interface or my, you know, a new sealed interface or my, you know, a new sealed interface or my, you know, a new variant of my enum or whatever, then I variant of my enum or whatever, then I variant of my enum or whatever, then I want the compiler to tell me all the want the compiler to tell me all the want the compiler to tell me all the places where I'm not going to handle places where I'm not going to handle places where I'm not going to handle that correctly. Um either I'm going to that correctly. Um either I'm going to that correctly. Um either I'm going to fall into like a case where it does fall into like a case where it does fall into like a case where it does something unexpected or, you know, it something unexpected or, you know, it something unexpected or, you know, it just will throw an exception or just will throw an exception or just will throw an exception or something. And so yeah, we at when we something. And so yeah, we at when we something. And so yeah, we at when we were at Square um we built a were at Square um we built a were at Square um we built a compiler plugin and tool to to do to

compiler plugin and tool to to do to compiler plugin and tool to to do to force exhaustive wens and I thought it force exhaustive wens and I thought it force exhaustive wens and I thought it would never make it into the the would never make it into the the would never make it into the the language proper and I um so this was language proper and I um so this was language proper and I um so this was when Roman uh Elizer was the um when I when Roman uh Elizer was the um when I when Roman uh Elizer was the um when I was at Google that was when the was at Google that was when the was at Google that was when the transition happened from from Andre and transition happened from from Andre and transition happened from from Andre and I remember talking to him about it and I remember talking to him about it and I remember talking to him about it and him just being like yeah that's That's I him just being like yeah that's That's I him just being like yeah that's That's I think that's a thing that we're going to think that's a thing that we're going to think that's a thing that we're going to do. I'm like that's excellent. Like do. I'm like that's excellent. Like do. I'm like that's excellent. Like please yes. There's certainly nothing please yes. There's certainly nothing please yes. There's certainly nothing that I've directly been uh attributed that I've directly been uh attributed that I've directly been uh attributed to. Um but yeah, one of the things and to. Um but yeah, one of the things and to. Um but yeah, one of the things and one of the reasons that keeps me in one of the reasons that keeps me in one of the reasons that keeps me in Cotlin is a lot of the decisions that Cotlin is a lot of the decisions that Cotlin is a lot of the decisions that they've been making over time about what they've been making over time about what they've been making over time about what goes in and what doesn't go in feels goes in and what doesn't go in feels goes in and what doesn't go in feels like they align with my my values that I like they align with my my values that I like they align with my my values that I want from a programming language. The want from a programming language. The want from a programming language. The things that I feel um it should do for things that I feel um it should do for things that I feel um it should do for me. and the things it shouldn't do for me. and the things it shouldn't do for me. and the things it shouldn't do for me, the things it should, you know, me, the things it should, you know, me, the things it should, you know, leave as responsibility to the leave as responsibility to the leave as responsibility to the programmer. So, there's an error and programmer. So, there's an error and programmer. So, there's an error and exception proposal that's now a year too exception proposal that's now a year too exception proposal that's now a year too old. Uh, just got re refreshed as we're old. Uh, just got re refreshed as we're old. Uh, just got re refreshed as we're recording this. And so, I'm hopefully recording this. And so, I'm hopefully recording this. And so, I'm hopefully hopefully that, you know, keeps moving hopefully that, you know, keeps moving hopefully that, you know, keeps moving and I can provide like useful feedback and I can provide like useful feedback and I can provide like useful feedback about my opinion on it as I would about my opinion on it as I would about my opinion on it as I would encourage other people to do. you know encourage other people to do. you know encourage other people to do. you know your especially since all you know our your especially since all you know our your especially since all you know our code bases can't be seen by you almost code bases can't be seen by you almost code bases can't be seen by you almost all of them are closed source right um all of them are closed source right um all of them are closed source right um the the ways you use cotlin the design the the ways you use cotlin the design the the ways you use cotlin the design patterns you come up with the things you patterns you come up with the things you patterns you come up with the things you build a lot of times there's a a a build a lot of times there's a a a build a lot of times there's a a a language tweak that could be made to

language tweak that could be made to language tweak that could be made to make that easier but if you can't see it make that easier but if you can't see it make that easier but if you can't see it if you're not participating in that if you're not participating in that if you're not participating in that ecosystem of trying to tell the language ecosystem of trying to tell the language ecosystem of trying to tell the language what it should be for you then you know what it should be for you then you know what it should be for you then you know you're basically just letting go of the you're basically just letting go of the you're basically just letting go of the reins and letting other people control. reins and letting other people control. reins and letting other people control. And so that's, you know, that's that's And so that's, you know, that's that's And so that's, you know, that's that's really all I do and that's what I really all I do and that's what I really all I do and that's what I encourage other people to do is just encourage other people to do is just encourage other people to do is just look at the look at the proposals as look at the look at the proposals as look at the look at the proposals as they come in. Watch the talks about they come in. Watch the talks about they come in. Watch the talks about language evolution at at Cotlin Conf and language evolution at at Cotlin Conf and language evolution at at Cotlin Conf and stuff. There's channels on the Cotlin stuff. There's channels on the Cotlin stuff. There's channels on the Cotlin Lang Slack where they uh there's Lang Slack where they uh there's Lang Slack where they uh there's discussions about where the language is discussions about where the language is discussions about where the language is going to go with features and stuff. um going to go with features and stuff. um going to go with features and stuff. um you can have a little bit of involvement you can have a little bit of involvement you can have a little bit of involvement and every now and then you can just send and every now and then you can just send and every now and then you can just send a oneline comment like yes or no you a oneline comment like yes or no you a oneline comment like yes or no you know this is why I think this and yeah know this is why I think this and yeah know this is why I think this and yeah you're helping shape the language now you're helping shape the language now you're helping shape the language now >> who is actually steering cotlin in 2026 >> who is actually steering cotlin in 2026 >> who is actually steering cotlin in 2026 jet brains Google or the community jet brains Google or the community jet brains Google or the community >> it should be all three uh and that was >> it should be all three uh and that was >> it should be all three uh and that was part of the point of moving the language part of the point of moving the language part of the point of moving the language away from jet brains into the cotlin away from jet brains into the cotlin away from jet brains into the cotlin foundation uh and that it has the the foundation uh and that it has the the foundation uh and that it has the the structure such that no one party I mean structure such that no one party I mean structure such that no one party I mean the community doesn't really have the community doesn't really have the community doesn't really have explicit membership to the foundation um explicit membership to the foundation um explicit membership to the foundation um but certainly like we outnumber uh the but certainly like we outnumber uh the but certainly like we outnumber uh the people at Jet Brains and and at Google people at Jet Brains and and at Google people at Jet Brains and and at Google and so yeah they I mean if they're doing and so yeah they I mean if they're doing and so yeah they I mean if they're doing their jobs effectively they're listening their jobs effectively they're listening their jobs effectively they're listening to what's going on in the community as to what's going on in the community as to what's going on in the community as well as you know wrangling that what I'm well as you know wrangling that what I'm well as you know wrangling that what I'm sure is uh absolutely insane level of sure is uh absolutely insane level of sure is uh absolutely insane level of feedback into something that's

feedback into something that's feedback into something that's digestible digestible digestible in order to move the language forward in order to move the language forward in order to move the language forward that was u born out of um you know one that was u born out of um you know one that was u born out of um you know one of the things we talked about about of the things we talked about about of the things we talked about about Google adopting Cotlin they already did Google adopting Cotlin they already did Google adopting Cotlin they already did the thing where they used the language the thing where they used the language the thing where they used the language that another company owned and there was that another company owned and there was that another company owned and there was a massive lawsuit about it and so if a massive lawsuit about it and so if a massive lawsuit about it and so if we're going to adopt this new language we're going to adopt this new language we're going to adopt this new language uh it can't be owned by some other uh it can't be owned by some other uh it can't be owned by some other company that can turn around and you company that can turn around and you company that can turn around and you know do something that would ultimately know do something that would ultimately know do something that would ultimately hurt Google. Yeah, I think if it's hurt Google. Yeah, I think if it's hurt Google. Yeah, I think if it's working correctly, which I think it is, working correctly, which I think it is, working correctly, which I think it is, it's it's all of the above. It's all it's it's all of the above. It's all it's it's all of the above. It's all three. three. three. >> What would the world lose if Cotlin >> What would the world lose if Cotlin >> What would the world lose if Cotlin disappeared? disappeared? disappeared? >> I think it would be a big loss, but I >> I think it would be a big loss, but I >> I think it would be a big loss, but I also think it's okay for programming also think it's okay for programming also think it's okay for programming languages to not live forever. Um, I languages to not live forever. Um, I languages to not live forever. Um, I don't think Cotlin should end anytime don't think Cotlin should end anytime don't think Cotlin should end anytime soon. Um, but yeah, it's okay to not soon. Um, but yeah, it's okay to not soon. Um, but yeah, it's okay to not grow to infinity to encapsulate every grow to infinity to encapsulate every grow to infinity to encapsulate every single potential use case. um we we have single potential use case. um we we have single potential use case. um we we have different programming languages for a different programming languages for a different programming languages for a reason and so if a time comes when reason and so if a time comes when reason and so if a time comes when programming somehow fundamentally programming somehow fundamentally programming somehow fundamentally changes where where cotlin doesn't fit I changes where where cotlin doesn't fit I changes where where cotlin doesn't fit I think that could be okay think that could be okay think that could be okay >> and you personally what would you lose >> and you personally what would you lose >> and you personally what would you lose >> I would definitely lose my ability to >> I would definitely lose my ability to >> I would definitely lose my ability to probably have a job anywhere I'm not probably have a job anywhere I'm not probably have a job anywhere I'm not skilled at any other language enough to skilled at any other language enough to skilled at any other language enough to really make money I've sort of put all really make money I've sort of put all really make money I've sort of put all my eggs in the the cotlin basket basket.

my eggs in the the cotlin basket basket. my eggs in the the cotlin basket basket. I very happy with putting all my efforts I very happy with putting all my efforts I very happy with putting all my efforts behind Cotlin and making that the the behind Cotlin and making that the the behind Cotlin and making that the the thing I tie myself to and um yeah, so thing I tie myself to and um yeah, so thing I tie myself to and um yeah, so please please don't make it go away.