Outfoxed Podcast by Hunter.io | Ep 13 Matthew Kay "How to rethink list building"

This is Outf Fox, the podcast brought to This is Outf Fox, the podcast brought to you by Hunter.io, the trusted B2B lead you by Hunter.io, the trusted B2B lead you by Hunter.io, the trusted B2B lead generation platform built for every generation platform built for every generation platform built for every professional. Get ready to know professional. Get ready to know professional. Get ready to know playbooks, no posturing, and no egos. playbooks, no posturing, and no egos. playbooks, no posturing, and no egos. This is the show for the builders and This is the show for the builders and This is the show for the builders and not the theorists. Let's get into it. not the theorists. Let's get into it. not the theorists. Let's get into it. Well, Matthew, welcome to Outf Fox. Uh, Well, Matthew, welcome to Outf Fox. Uh, Well, Matthew, welcome to Outf Fox. Uh, excited to have you here. Um, for those excited to have you here. Um, for those excited to have you here. Um, for those who are joining, um, again, welcome to who are joining, um, again, welcome to who are joining, um, again, welcome to Outf Fox. my favorite podcast of the Outf Fox. my favorite podcast of the Outf Fox. my favorite podcast of the week. [music] Uh because I'm I get to be week. [music] Uh because I'm I get to be week. [music] Uh because I'm I get to be the main guy, I guess. I don't know. the main guy, I guess. I don't know. the main guy, I guess. I don't know. Maybe that's uh ego talking. Uh no, Maybe that's uh ego talking. Uh no, Maybe that's uh ego talking. Uh no, mostly it's because I get to drive the mostly it's because I get to drive the mostly it's because I get to drive the questions and that's the part I'm the questions and that's the part I'm the questions and that's the part I'm the most excited about. Um with me is most excited about. Um with me is most excited about. Um with me is Matthew, founder of Coleman Rose. Matthew, founder of Coleman Rose. Matthew, founder of Coleman Rose. Coleman Rose is a B2B growth Coleman Rose is a B2B growth Coleman Rose is a B2B growth consultancy, consultancy, consultancy, as you say, with genuine skin in the as you say, with genuine skin in the as you say, with genuine skin in the game. I'm going to come back to that. um game. I'm going to come back to that. um game. I'm going to come back to that. um you've spent what a decade or so helping you've spent what a decade or so helping you've spent what a decade or so helping SAS and professional services companies SAS and professional services companies SAS and professional services companies grow and you've keyed in on while you've grow and you've keyed in on while you've grow and you've keyed in on while you've used while you've worked with large used while you've worked with large used while you've worked with large accounts as well you've really said you accounts as well you've really said you accounts as well you've really said you focus onmemes focus onmemes focus onmemes um and uh so I'd love to dial into that.

um and uh so I'd love to dial into that. um and uh so I'd love to dial into that. So, Matthew, welcome to Outfox. So, Matthew, welcome to Outfox. So, Matthew, welcome to Outfox. >> Thank you very much for uh for having me >> Thank you very much for uh for having me >> Thank you very much for uh for having me on the show. I'm um I'm excited to get on the show. I'm um I'm excited to get on the show. I'm um I'm excited to get into things. into things. into things. >> That's great. As uh so just so you you >> That's great. As uh so just so you you >> That's great. As uh so just so you you know everybody listening understands know everybody listening understands know everybody listening understands that is a different accent that you hear that is a different accent that you hear that is a different accent that you hear with Matthew. Matthew's joining us from with Matthew. Matthew's joining us from with Matthew. Matthew's joining us from uh Milton Kees, which I had to look up uh Milton Kees, which I had to look up uh Milton Kees, which I had to look up again this morning because I was like I again this morning because I was like I again this morning because I was like I like I know that this is interesting to like I know that this is interesting to like I know that this is interesting to me for some reason. And after uh 20 me for some reason. And after uh 20 me for some reason. And after uh 20 straight years of two Red Bulls a day, straight years of two Red Bulls a day, straight years of two Red Bulls a day, which I did the math is 20,000 Red which I did the math is 20,000 Red which I did the math is 20,000 Red Bulls. So medical science, if you want Bulls. So medical science, if you want Bulls. So medical science, if you want to do some research, I'm here. Um, but to do some research, I'm here. Um, but to do some research, I'm here. Um, but it means that Red Bull Racing is it means that Red Bull Racing is it means that Red Bull Racing is headquartered in Milton Ke. So, uh, that headquartered in Milton Ke. So, uh, that headquartered in Milton Ke. So, uh, that was the connection. And, uh, Matthew, was the connection. And, uh, Matthew, was the connection. And, uh, Matthew, tell me, do you have a race story? A Red tell me, do you have a race story? A Red tell me, do you have a race story? A Red Bull racing story? Bull racing story? Bull racing story? >> I suppose a small one. I mean, Milton >> I suppose a small one. I mean, Milton >> I suppose a small one. I mean, Milton Kees probably isn't famous for that Kees probably isn't famous for that Kees probably isn't famous for that much, but um, uh, having the Red Bull much, but um, uh, having the Red Bull much, but um, uh, having the Red Bull Formula 1 team based here is is is maybe Formula 1 team based here is is is maybe Formula 1 team based here is is is maybe one of those. Um, but if anyone uh one of those. Um, but if anyone uh one of those. Um, but if anyone uh listening is ever in the area and um listening is ever in the area and um listening is ever in the area and um wants to go on the Red Bull Factory wants to go on the Red Bull Factory wants to go on the Red Bull Factory Tour, I can I can thoroughly recommend Tour, I can I can thoroughly recommend Tour, I can I can thoroughly recommend it. It's a it's a good 2 or threeh hour it. It's a it's a good 2 or threeh hour it. It's a it's a good 2 or threeh hour experience and the amount of time and experience and the amount of time and experience and the amount of time and effort and intelligence that goes into effort and intelligence that goes into effort and intelligence that goes into that will just will just blow you away.

that will just will just blow you away. that will just will just blow you away. It's uh it's an unbelievable um uh It's uh it's an unbelievable um uh It's uh it's an unbelievable um uh experience um if uh if you're in the experience um if uh if you're in the experience um if uh if you're in the area. So, I I I thoroughly recommend it. area. So, I I I thoroughly recommend it. area. So, I I I thoroughly recommend it. >> I think that's a bucket list trip at >> I think that's a bucket list trip at >> I think that's a bucket list trip at this point for me. I'm going to have to this point for me. I'm going to have to this point for me. I'm going to have to do that. Uh there's only a handful of do that. Uh there's only a handful of do that. Uh there's only a handful of those. Um are you from Milton Kees those. Um are you from Milton Kees those. Um are you from Milton Kees originally? originally? originally? >> Not too far away. Yeah. I mean I've >> Not too far away. Yeah. I mean I've >> Not too far away. Yeah. I mean I've spent most of the last uh 30 odd years spent most of the last uh 30 odd years spent most of the last uh 30 odd years in and around in and around the area. Um in and around in and around the area. Um in and around in and around the area. Um so yeah, I I live not too not too far so yeah, I I live not too not too far so yeah, I I live not too not too far from here. It's um it's not the the I from here. It's um it's not the the I from here. It's um it's not the the I suppose most fashionable place in the suppose most fashionable place in the suppose most fashionable place in the UK. I mean it's the the city itself has UK. I mean it's the the city itself has UK. I mean it's the the city itself has only been around for like 45 years, only been around for like 45 years, only been around for like 45 years, something like that. but it was something like that. but it was something like that. but it was deliberately positioned so that it's deliberately positioned so that it's deliberately positioned so that it's equidistant between London, Birmingham, equidistant between London, Birmingham, equidistant between London, Birmingham, Oxford, Cambridge, and somewhere else, I Oxford, Cambridge, and somewhere else, I Oxford, Cambridge, and somewhere else, I think, so that it could basically be a think, so that it could basically be a think, so that it could basically be a commuter hub for all of those places. commuter hub for all of those places. commuter hub for all of those places. Um, so um yeah, no, it's um uh like I Um, so um yeah, no, it's um uh like I Um, so um yeah, no, it's um uh like I say, probably not the it doesn't have say, probably not the it doesn't have say, probably not the it doesn't have that much culture, I suppose, or or that much culture, I suppose, or or that much culture, I suppose, or or history behind it. Um but it's but it's history behind it. Um but it's but it's history behind it. Um but it's but it's but it's nice. I mean, once you get out but it's nice. I mean, once you get out but it's nice. I mean, once you get out into the villages and stuff, it's a it's into the villages and stuff, it's a it's into the villages and stuff, it's a it's a cool place.

a cool place. a cool place. >> Nice. Well, I'll I'll uh I'll let you >> Nice. Well, I'll I'll uh I'll let you >> Nice. Well, I'll I'll uh I'll let you know. I'll report back once I get a know. I'll report back once I get a know. I'll report back once I get a chance to visit. Um, okay. So, what did chance to visit. Um, okay. So, what did chance to visit. Um, okay. So, what did I miss in the intro? Did I cover it? I miss in the intro? Did I cover it? I miss in the intro? Did I cover it? Okay. Okay. Okay. >> I I think you covered it um perfectly. >> I I think you covered it um perfectly. >> I I think you covered it um perfectly. Yeah. Um, you know, I um I've spent just Yeah. Um, you know, I um I've spent just Yeah. Um, you know, I um I've spent just shy of 15 years in in digital marketing shy of 15 years in in digital marketing shy of 15 years in in digital marketing and and and and sales. Um, started and and and and sales. Um, started and and and and sales. Um, started things out. Uh I was very lucky to be things out. Uh I was very lucky to be things out. Uh I was very lucky to be exposed at the first company I worked at exposed at the first company I worked at exposed at the first company I worked at to all manner of businesses right from to all manner of businesses right from to all manner of businesses right from you know small micro companies right up you know small micro companies right up you know small micro companies right up to you know you know large businesses uh to you know you know large businesses uh to you know you know large businesses uh as as as um you know like Costa Coffee as as as um you know like Costa Coffee as as as um you know like Costa Coffee and um Volkswagen Financial Services um and um Volkswagen Financial Services um and um Volkswagen Financial Services um and um AXA who are a big insurance um and um AXA who are a big insurance um and um AXA who are a big insurance um brand over here uh as well as PWC um you brand over here uh as well as PWC um you brand over here uh as well as PWC um you know through to you know like I say know through to you know like I say know through to you know like I say businesses that you've you've probably businesses that you've you've probably businesses that you've you've probably never really heard of. Um I I I I left never really heard of. Um I I I I left never really heard of. Um I I I I left that organization and then spent uh six that organization and then spent uh six that organization and then spent uh six years at another business where again years at another business where again years at another business where again got got um good exposure to a large got got um good exposure to a large got got um good exposure to a large portfolio of companies but spent most of portfolio of companies but spent most of portfolio of companies but spent most of that time niching more and more into that time niching more and more into that time niching more and more into into um B2B. A big reason of that is into um B2B. A big reason of that is into um B2B. A big reason of that is because I got into the HubSpot ecosystem because I got into the HubSpot ecosystem because I got into the HubSpot ecosystem about a decade ago. Um, and obviously about a decade ago. Um, and obviously about a decade ago. Um, and obviously HubSpot very tied in with longer sales HubSpot very tied in with longer sales HubSpot very tied in with longer sales cycles and and and B2B orgs. Um, and cycles and and and B2B orgs. Um, and cycles and and and B2B orgs. Um, and then uh just uh shy of two and a half then uh just uh shy of two and a half then uh just uh shy of two and a half years ago, the stars aligned and um I uh years ago, the stars aligned and um I uh years ago, the stars aligned and um I uh I founded Coleman Rose and um uh you

I founded Coleman Rose and um uh you I founded Coleman Rose and um uh you know have gone from being just me to a know have gone from being just me to a know have gone from being just me to a team of four now. So um yeah, ticking on team of four now. So um yeah, ticking on team of four now. So um yeah, ticking on tick along on Okay. And um yeah, that's tick along on Okay. And um yeah, that's tick along on Okay. And um yeah, that's probably like a super quick tour of of probably like a super quick tour of of probably like a super quick tour of of of my background. of my background. of my background. >> That's awesome. Thank you. So, you've >> That's awesome. Thank you. So, you've >> That's awesome. Thank you. So, you've you've had an expanse of experiences. you've had an expanse of experiences. you've had an expanse of experiences. You've worked with a large variety of You've worked with a large variety of You've worked with a large variety of companies. I have as well. What made you companies. I have as well. What made you companies. I have as well. What made you decide the companies that you wanted to decide the companies that you wanted to decide the companies that you wanted to focus on were going to be kind of small focus on were going to be kind of small focus on were going to be kind of small to mediumsiz enterprises? Was there a to mediumsiz enterprises? Was there a to mediumsiz enterprises? Was there a particular moment or experience that particular moment or experience that particular moment or experience that kind of drove you in that direction? kind of drove you in that direction? kind of drove you in that direction? >> I wouldn't say it was one particular >> I wouldn't say it was one particular >> I wouldn't say it was one particular moment um or experience. I I would say moment um or experience. I I would say moment um or experience. I I would say it's a collective of them. Um so when it's a collective of them. Um so when it's a collective of them. Um so when you work with larger organizations so you work with larger organizations so you work with larger organizations so our so our ICP is is right um 10 to 100 our so our ICP is is right um 10 to 100 our so our ICP is is right um 10 to 100 employees right um we can and have employees right um we can and have employees right um we can and have worked with companies um slightly worked with companies um slightly worked with companies um slightly outside of that but but um you know that outside of that but but um you know that outside of that but but um you know that that from an employee perspective that from an employee perspective that from an employee perspective obviously there's other factors that obviously there's other factors that obviously there's other factors that that that filter into our SCP but um that that filter into our SCP but um that that filter into our SCP but um that's our our focus and the the reason that's our our focus and the the reason that's our our focus and the the reason why we've kind of landed on that is that why we've kind of landed on that is that why we've kind of landed on that is that companies you know certainly only uh 250 companies you know certainly only uh 250 companies you know certainly only uh 250 employees 500 and up are just in a employees 500 and up are just in a employees 500 and up are just in a different way of doing things. Um you different way of doing things. Um you different way of doing things. Um you know things happen slower. You get code know things happen slower. You get code know things happen slower. You get code freezes on websites. You get um uh lay freezes on websites. You get um uh lay freezes on websites. You get um uh lay layers of bureaucracy within an layers of bureaucracy within an layers of bureaucracy within an organization for obvious reasons right organization for obvious reasons right organization for obvious reasons right like compliance, legal, all those sorts like compliance, legal, all those sorts like compliance, legal, all those sorts of things. Um and honestly um I of things. Um and honestly um I of things. Um and honestly um I personally just enjoy working less with

personally just enjoy working less with personally just enjoy working less with that type of company. there's a space that type of company. there's a space that type of company. there's a space for it in the market of course there is for it in the market of course there is for it in the market of course there is and there are other companies that are and there are other companies that are and there are other companies that are better suited for it but you know we had better suited for it but you know we had better suited for it but you know we had we we have a client who they're about 25 we we have a client who they're about 25 we we have a client who they're about 25 employees um we send them stuff and it's employees um we send them stuff and it's employees um we send them stuff and it's done within 24 hours right done within 24 hours right done within 24 hours right >> um and it's like you know I I've had a >> um and it's like you know I I've had a >> um and it's like you know I I've had a supplier recently who who's literally supplier recently who who's literally supplier recently who who's literally said to me be like the these guys are said to me be like the these guys are said to me be like the these guys are like dream I'm like yeah I know you send like dream I'm like yeah I know you send like dream I'm like yeah I know you send them stuff and they just do it and they them stuff and they just do it and they them stuff and they just do it and they just crack on and and you know that was just crack on and and you know that was just crack on and and you know that was a that was a that was a massive um a that was a that was a massive um a that was a that was a massive um reason for us in terms of focusing on on reason for us in terms of focusing on on reason for us in terms of focusing on on that side of on that size of company. that side of on that size of company. that side of on that size of company. >> Yeah, it makes sense. That's always been >> Yeah, it makes sense. That's always been >> Yeah, it makes sense. That's always been kind of my favorite as well. To me, I kind of my favorite as well. To me, I kind of my favorite as well. To me, I want everybody I work with to be as want everybody I work with to be as want everybody I work with to be as close to the user or as close to the close to the user or as close to the close to the user or as close to the problem as possible. And when you get to problem as possible. And when you get to problem as possible. And when you get to a certain size, the decision maker is so a certain size, the decision maker is so a certain size, the decision maker is so separate from the end user or the separate from the end user or the separate from the end user or the customer that often what's shaping the customer that often what's shaping the customer that often what's shaping the decision has less to do with what value decision has less to do with what value decision has less to do with what value you're delivering and more about you're delivering and more about you're delivering and more about organizational constructs and, you know, organizational constructs and, you know, organizational constructs and, you know, revenue. It's just like it kind of the revenue. It's just like it kind of the revenue. It's just like it kind of the value falls away and the focus becomes value falls away and the focus becomes value falls away and the focus becomes more I don't know financial for lack of more I don't know financial for lack of more I don't know financial for lack of a better word. And that to me it just a better word. And that to me it just a better word. And that to me it just makes projects less interesting. Um when makes projects less interesting. Um when makes projects less interesting. Um when it's yeah when you're far enough away it's yeah when you're far enough away it's yeah when you're far enough away from the problem you're not really from the problem you're not really from the problem you're not really emotionally connected to the outcome emotionally connected to the outcome emotionally connected to the outcome anymore. And that to me is what I like anymore. And that to me is what I like anymore. And that to me is what I like about SMBs. They're they're they care about SMBs. They're they're they care about SMBs. They're they're they care they care still about the process and they care still about the process and they care still about the process and the outcome.

the outcome. the outcome. >> Yeah. 100%. And and and I'm not saying >> Yeah. 100%. And and and I'm not saying >> Yeah. 100%. And and and I'm not saying that uh I don't necessarily think that that uh I don't necessarily think that that uh I don't necessarily think that people don't care in larger people don't care in larger people don't care in larger organizations, but a lot of the time you organizations, but a lot of the time you organizations, but a lot of the time you we are personally dealing with I'm not we are personally dealing with I'm not we are personally dealing with I'm not saying you're saying that either, but saying you're saying that either, but saying you're saying that either, but but you know, I a lot of the time we but you know, I a lot of the time we but you know, I a lot of the time we deal with like at least or have a deal with like at least or have a deal with like at least or have a relationship with the owner or relationship with the owner or relationship with the owner or co-founders of the organization and for co-founders of the organization and for co-founders of the organization and for them, you know, uh if if the business them, you know, uh if if the business them, you know, uh if if the business doesn't work, they have no money coming doesn't work, they have no money coming doesn't work, they have no money coming in, right? in, right? in, right? there's a mass massive risk associated there's a mass massive risk associated there's a mass massive risk associated with that and I honestly I I just get a with that and I honestly I I just get a with that and I honestly I I just get a bigger kick out of working with this bigger kick out of working with this bigger kick out of working with this type of business um based off you know type of business um based off you know type of business um based off you know having spent 10 plus years working with having spent 10 plus years working with having spent 10 plus years working with different varieties of companies and I different varieties of companies and I different varieties of companies and I personally think that I and therefore personally think that I and therefore personally think that I and therefore the business are a better fit to work the business are a better fit to work the business are a better fit to work with those smaller entities um with those smaller entities um with those smaller entities um day-to-day. day-to-day. day-to-day. >> Yeah. Right on. Now you've um you've >> Yeah. Right on. Now you've um you've >> Yeah. Right on. Now you've um you've mentioned a couple of times ICP and one mentioned a couple of times ICP and one mentioned a couple of times ICP and one of the things that I find is true when I of the things that I find is true when I of the things that I find is true when I work with SMBs in ways that is still work with SMBs in ways that is still work with SMBs in ways that is still often true even in larger organizations often true even in larger organizations often true even in larger organizations is that there's a bit of a mystery about is that there's a bit of a mystery about is that there's a bit of a mystery about the process of defining your ICP about the process of defining your ICP about the process of defining your ICP about segmenting your customers. And I think, segmenting your customers. And I think, segmenting your customers. And I think, you know, I'm consistently surprised at you know, I'm consistently surprised at you know, I'm consistently surprised at how how how uncommon a certain amount of rigor and uncommon a certain amount of rigor and uncommon a certain amount of rigor and discipline are on this particular topic discipline are on this particular topic discipline are on this particular topic because it doesn't feel like there's a because it doesn't feel like there's a because it doesn't feel like there's a lot of like really really great black lot of like really really great black lot of like really really great black and white blueprints for how to do this and white blueprints for how to do this and white blueprints for how to do this out there. How did you determine

out there. How did you determine out there. How did you determine that that was your your ICP specifically that that was your your ICP specifically that that was your your ICP specifically from a business? So I like I understand from a business? So I like I understand from a business? So I like I understand your personal preference but as you get your personal preference but as you get your personal preference but as you get into like professionally into like professionally into like professionally um what made that what made that ICP um what made that what made that ICP um what made that what made that ICP attractive? So there's a few things for attractive? So there's a few things for attractive? So there's a few things for us uh that I having done this for for a us uh that I having done this for for a us uh that I having done this for for a period of time and and I've worked with period of time and and I've worked with period of time and and I've worked with a couple of you know one or two people a couple of you know one or two people a couple of you know one or two people companies um that is a companies um that is a companies um that is a challenge because challenge because challenge because um sometimes um sometimes um sometimes marketing and sales activity marketing and sales activity marketing and sales activity is is potentially seen as a thing that is is potentially seen as a thing that is is potentially seen as a thing that can help save them when sometimes that can help save them when sometimes that can help save them when sometimes that might not the case or can help them might not the case or can help them might not the case or can help them really kick them on to the next level. really kick them on to the next level. really kick them on to the next level. Um, you know, the the the reason from a Um, you know, the the the reason from a Um, you know, the the the reason from a business perspective that we typically business perspective that we typically business perspective that we typically work with companies where they've got at work with companies where they've got at work with companies where they've got at least 10 employees is that, you know, least 10 employees is that, you know, least 10 employees is that, you know, um, that is a very good sign that the um, that is a very good sign that the um, that is a very good sign that the company has established company has established company has established customers or a handful of customers and customers or a handful of customers and customers or a handful of customers and fundamentally there's no exact measure fundamentally there's no exact measure fundamentally there's no exact measure for product market fit, but they're for product market fit, but they're for product market fit, but they're either very very close to it or they've either very very close to it or they've either very very close to it or they've already got it right. Um but then you already got it right. Um but then you already got it right. Um but then you don't get into that top end of company don't get into that top end of company don't get into that top end of company um where you get those you know levels um where you get those you know levels um where you get those you know levels of data protection officers and all that of data protection officers and all that of data protection officers and all that sort of stuff that means that you know sort of stuff that means that you know sort of stuff that means that you know we we end up slowing down and have to go we we end up slowing down and have to go we we end up slowing down and have to go through you know campaign approvals and through you know campaign approvals and through you know campaign approvals and all that sort of stuff. Um so so I think all that sort of stuff. Um so so I think all that sort of stuff. Um so so I think that that that was a a definite factor

that that that was a a definite factor that that that was a a definite factor from a business point of view. In from a business point of view. In from a business point of view. In addition to that, like honestly, um addition to that, like honestly, um addition to that, like honestly, um there are companies designed to work there are companies designed to work there are companies designed to work with businesses that charge um you know, with businesses that charge um you know, with businesses that charge um you know, tens of thousands of dollars every month tens of thousands of dollars every month tens of thousands of dollars every month for for their support, right? There are for for their support, right? There are for for their support, right? There are also companies out there that may work also companies out there that may work also companies out there that may work on a few hundred dollars a month, right? on a few hundred dollars a month, right? on a few hundred dollars a month, right? And and and and we're in that gap in And and and and we're in that gap in And and and and we're in that gap in between, right? you know, we're not between, right? you know, we're not between, right? you know, we're not charging a few hundred dollars and we're charging a few hundred dollars and we're charging a few hundred dollars and we're not charging tens of thousands of of not charging tens of thousands of of not charging tens of thousands of of dollars every single month. Um, and in dollars every single month. Um, and in dollars every single month. Um, and in my opinion and the business's opinion, my opinion and the business's opinion, my opinion and the business's opinion, that gives us enough bandwidth to be that gives us enough bandwidth to be that gives us enough bandwidth to be effective. This is really interesting. effective. This is really interesting. effective. This is really interesting. Do you put most of your energy into the Do you put most of your energy into the Do you put most of your energy into the places with your clients where you places with your clients where you places with your clients where you thought you would? Or do you find that thought you would? Or do you find that thought you would? Or do you find that each of your engagements often requires each of your engagements often requires each of your engagements often requires something unexpected, something that is something unexpected, something that is something unexpected, something that is like, oh, we have to remove this hurdle like, oh, we have to remove this hurdle like, oh, we have to remove this hurdle first before we can actually get to the first before we can actually get to the first before we can actually get to the thing that we want to do with you. Do thing that we want to do with you. Do thing that we want to do with you. Do you find that with a lot of your you find that with a lot of your you find that with a lot of your clients, there's there's that kind of clients, there's there's that kind of clients, there's there's that kind of thing that gets in the way early in a thing that gets in the way early in a thing that gets in the way early in a relationship?

relationship? relationship? >> Sometimes. I think it depends what it >> Sometimes. I think it depends what it >> Sometimes. I think it depends what it is, right? I mean, you know, when we is, right? I mean, you know, when we is, right? I mean, you know, when we work with clients initially, certainly work with clients initially, certainly work with clients initially, certainly earlier on, we're looking for ways that earlier on, we're looking for ways that earlier on, we're looking for ways that we can drive value as fast as possible. we can drive value as fast as possible. we can drive value as fast as possible. [clears throat] Um, you know, [clears throat] Um, you know, [clears throat] Um, you know, >> that might mean actively mapping >> that might mean actively mapping >> that might mean actively mapping activities onto a matrix where, you activities onto a matrix where, you activities onto a matrix where, you know, we look at low or medium effort know, we look at low or medium effort know, we look at low or medium effort but high potential impact. Um, and but high potential impact. Um, and but high potential impact. Um, and that's what we we we try to focus on. If that's what we we we try to focus on. If that's what we we we try to focus on. If that means that, you know, we need to that means that, you know, we need to that means that, you know, we need to remove this thing or or or get this remove this thing or or or get this remove this thing or or or get this blocker out of the way in order to do blocker out of the way in order to do blocker out of the way in order to do that, um, then then sometimes we know that, um, then then sometimes we know that, um, then then sometimes we know about that in advance and other times it about that in advance and other times it about that in advance and other times it comes out in a wash and and and and we comes out in a wash and and and and we comes out in a wash and and and and we do it then. So, um, uh, I I it's such a do it then. So, um, uh, I I it's such a do it then. So, um, uh, I I it's such a marketer's response, but but but but it marketer's response, but but but but it marketer's response, but but but but it but but it depends on it it depends on but but it depends on it it depends on but but it depends on it it depends on the client. the client. the client. >> Yeah. Okay. I just, you know, I'm really >> Yeah. Okay. I just, you know, I'm really >> Yeah. Okay. I just, you know, I'm really fascinated with this skin in the game fascinated with this skin in the game fascinated with this skin in the game concept that you've, you know, that concept that you've, you know, that concept that you've, you know, that you're marketing as part of your brand you're marketing as part of your brand you're marketing as part of your brand and as part of your business. And I'm, and as part of your business. And I'm, and as part of your business. And I'm, you know, I don't see enough of that.

you know, I don't see enough of that. you know, I don't see enough of that. And I'm really kind of fascinated like And I'm really kind of fascinated like And I'm really kind of fascinated like how did you come to that? Was that like how did you come to that? Was that like how did you come to that? Was that like an early idea that was part of your, you an early idea that was part of your, you an early idea that was part of your, you know, genesis of the business or did you know, genesis of the business or did you know, genesis of the business or did you get to that later? get to that later? get to that later? >> So, um, at the company I used to work at >> So, um, at the company I used to work at >> So, um, at the company I used to work at previously there, we had an external previously there, we had an external previously there, we had an external adviser. Mhm. adviser. Mhm. adviser. Mhm. >> And this external adviser started to >> And this external adviser started to >> And this external adviser started to talk more and more about the concept of talk more and more about the concept of talk more and more about the concept of performance-based contracts. So to just performance-based contracts. So to just performance-based contracts. So to just briefly recap that, you know, uh a briefly recap that, you know, uh a briefly recap that, you know, uh a performance-based contract is where part performance-based contract is where part performance-based contract is where part of or the whole of our what we invoice of or the whole of our what we invoice of or the whole of our what we invoice to a client um is based on outcomes. to a client um is based on outcomes. to a client um is based on outcomes. uh and um that person introduced the uh and um that person introduced the uh and um that person introduced the concept to me and I bought into that a concept to me and I bought into that a concept to me and I bought into that a lot right when I was there and I I I lot right when I was there and I I I lot right when I was there and I I I tried to introduce that to a handful of tried to introduce that to a handful of tried to introduce that to a handful of clients and would I say it was a failure clients and would I say it was a failure clients and would I say it was a failure whilst I was there maybe not but it whilst I was there maybe not but it whilst I was there maybe not but it wasn't as as successful as I I would wasn't as as successful as I I would wasn't as as successful as I I would have liked to like liked it to have have liked to like liked it to have have liked to like liked it to have been. So when I was thinking about going been. So when I was thinking about going been. So when I was thinking about going and doing my own thing um for me that and doing my own thing um for me that and doing my own thing um for me that was like a core pillar of the business was like a core pillar of the business was like a core pillar of the business and I and I'll tell you why there's and I and I'll tell you why there's and I and I'll tell you why there's probably two main prongs to it. Number probably two main prongs to it. Number probably two main prongs to it. Number one is that in the UK there's over um one is that in the UK there's over um one is that in the UK there's over um over 7,000 marketing agencies. In North over 7,000 marketing agencies. In North over 7,000 marketing agencies. In North America there's more than 100,000.

America there's more than 100,000. America there's more than 100,000. Right. Um I would argue we're slightly Right. Um I would argue we're slightly Right. Um I would argue we're slightly more well we're more consultancy than more well we're more consultancy than more well we're more consultancy than than agency. Um but like it or not what than agency. Um but like it or not what than agency. Um but like it or not what we do is a commodity, right? Um there we do is a commodity, right? Um there we do is a commodity, right? Um there there are so many out there. So um you there are so many out there. So um you there are so many out there. So um you know being unique know being unique know being unique um is almost impossible unless you like um is almost impossible unless you like um is almost impossible unless you like only work with charities and you do CRO only work with charities and you do CRO only work with charities and you do CRO and you know you only work with B corps and you know you only work with B corps and you know you only work with B corps in this particular sector or whatever in this particular sector or whatever in this particular sector or whatever right um so so so it's super difficult right um so so so it's super difficult right um so so so it's super difficult to be to be to be unique um out of those to be to be to be unique um out of those to be to be to be unique um out of those companies I think it's less than 6% companies I think it's less than 6% companies I think it's less than 6% offer performance-based contracts um so offer performance-based contracts um so offer performance-based contracts um so so that's number one right it was a how so that's number one right it was a how so that's number one right it was a how do we try and be as unique as we do we try and be as unique as we do we try and be as unique as we possibly can be? Number two is because possibly can be? Number two is because possibly can be? Number two is because I'm a massive believer if you're working I'm a massive believer if you're working I'm a massive believer if you're working with an outsource marketing and sales with an outsource marketing and sales with an outsource marketing and sales provider, consultant, agency, whatever, provider, consultant, agency, whatever, provider, consultant, agency, whatever, and they're not driving growth, and they're not driving growth, and they're not driving growth, what's the point like why are you paying what's the point like why are you paying what's the point like why are you paying them? Um so so um look, we don't put the them? Um so so um look, we don't put the them? Um so so um look, we don't put the whole fee on the chopping block because whole fee on the chopping block because whole fee on the chopping block because um we you know there's there's effort um we you know there's there's effort um we you know there's there's effort that goes towards things. It's not that goes towards things. It's not that goes towards things. It's not purely pay for play, but a portion of purely pay for play, but a portion of purely pay for play, but a portion of the the fees that we charge our clients the the fees that we charge our clients the the fees that we charge our clients um goes into uh this up for grabs area, um goes into uh this up for grabs area, um goes into uh this up for grabs area, I suppose. And if we we basically early I suppose. And if we we basically early I suppose. And if we we basically early on in a relationship agree some lower on in a relationship agree some lower on in a relationship agree some lower bound KPIs and some upper bound ones.

bound KPIs and some upper bound ones. bound KPIs and some upper bound ones. And if we miss the lower bound KPI, And if we miss the lower bound KPI, And if we miss the lower bound KPI, they get a rebate on their fee. But if they get a rebate on their fee. But if they get a rebate on their fee. But if we hit the upper bound one, right, um we we hit the upper bound one, right, um we we hit the upper bound one, right, um we get paid a kicker a bit like a get paid a kicker a bit like a get paid a kicker a bit like a salesperson would. So that's where the salesperson would. So that's where the salesperson would. So that's where the skin in the game tax comes from is skin in the game tax comes from is skin in the game tax comes from is because we genuinely have skin in the because we genuinely have skin in the because we genuinely have skin in the game to clients performance and if we're game to clients performance and if we're game to clients performance and if we're not able to help them produce that not able to help them produce that not able to help them produce that performance we lose out. performance we lose out. performance we lose out. >> Um but we're also you know saying to >> Um but we're also you know saying to >> Um but we're also you know saying to saying to saying to clients, well you saying to saying to clients, well you saying to saying to clients, well you know you should put your money where know you should put your money where know you should put your money where your mouth is as well and if we do hit your mouth is as well and if we do hit your mouth is as well and if we do hit or exceed performance then then then or exceed performance then then then or exceed performance then then then you're okay giving us giving us a bonus. you're okay giving us giving us a bonus. you're okay giving us giving us a bonus. And so far, look, do we miss KPI And so far, look, do we miss KPI And so far, look, do we miss KPI sometimes? Yeah, of course we do, right? sometimes? Yeah, of course we do, right? sometimes? Yeah, of course we do, right? Like, you know, no one can predict the Like, you know, no one can predict the Like, you know, no one can predict the future um but but but so far we we've future um but but but so far we we've future um but but but so far we we've either hit KPI in that, you know, gone either hit KPI in that, you know, gone either hit KPI in that, you know, gone above lower bound um or gone to or gone above lower bound um or gone to or gone above lower bound um or gone to or gone above the upper bound more times than we above the upper bound more times than we above the upper bound more times than we haven't. So, haven't. So, haven't. So, >> is it a deal sales process accelerant?

>> is it a deal sales process accelerant? >> is it a deal sales process accelerant? Do you find that this does work at Do you find that this does work at Do you find that this does work at helping you get more businesses involved helping you get more businesses involved helping you get more businesses involved than you would have? than you would have? than you would have? >> Depends who depends who you're talking >> Depends who depends who you're talking >> Depends who depends who you're talking to, I think. to, I think. to, I think. >> Okay. >> Okay. >> Okay. >> Sorry to interrupt you. Um, uh, >> Sorry to interrupt you. Um, uh, >> Sorry to interrupt you. Um, uh, founders, business owners, right, are founders, business owners, right, are founders, business owners, right, are much [clears throat] more interested much [clears throat] more interested much [clears throat] more interested than any other persona, which if you than any other persona, which if you than any other persona, which if you think about it kind of makes sense think about it kind of makes sense think about it kind of makes sense because it's their money, because it's their money, because it's their money, >> right? Um, I think marketing and sales >> right? Um, I think marketing and sales >> right? Um, I think marketing and sales personas who are our other main roles personas who are our other main roles personas who are our other main roles that we talk to, people we talk to that we talk to, people we talk to that we talk to, people we talk to dayto-day, um, find it interesting but dayto-day, um, find it interesting but dayto-day, um, find it interesting but not as appetizing, I would say. So, not as appetizing, I would say. So, not as appetizing, I would say. So, yeah, it it again it depends on who yeah, it it again it depends on who yeah, it it again it depends on who we're on on who we're talking to. But, we're on on who we're talking to. But, we're on on who we're talking to. But, but every time you talk to a business but every time you talk to a business but every time you talk to a business owner or or people in general, to be owner or or people in general, to be owner or or people in general, to be fair, that that's unfair of me to say, fair, that that's unfair of me to say, fair, that that's unfair of me to say, not just just bucket business owners. not just just bucket business owners. not just just bucket business owners. Um, people get it and and they Um, people get it and and they Um, people get it and and they understand it quite quickly. I I I think understand it quite quickly. I I I think understand it quite quickly. I I I think I saw a very interesting post on I saw a very interesting post on I saw a very interesting post on LinkedIn the other day that a lot of LinkedIn the other day that a lot of LinkedIn the other day that a lot of supplier agency consultant owners were supplier agency consultant owners were supplier agency consultant owners were very against performance-based very against performance-based very against performance-based contracts. Um which I found quite contracts. Um which I found quite contracts. Um which I found quite surprising but um surprising but um surprising but um maybe I'll change my mind in 5 years maybe I'll change my mind in 5 years maybe I'll change my mind in 5 years time because we've missed KPI too many time because we've missed KPI too many time because we've missed KPI too many times. I hope that's not the case. But times. I hope that's not the case. But times. I hope that's not the case. But um but I I mean I'd be amazed if that um but I I mean I'd be amazed if that um but I I mean I'd be amazed if that happens. Like I'm I'm I'm I'm pretty happens. Like I'm I'm I'm I'm pretty happens. Like I'm I'm I'm I'm pretty confident in the model. It's confident in the model. It's confident in the model. It's interesting, you know, on the software interesting, you know, on the software interesting, you know, on the software side, I've seen over the last 20 or so side, I've seen over the last 20 or so side, I've seen over the last 20 or so years three or four phases of years three or four phases of years three or four phases of experimentation in software around

experimentation in software around experimentation in software around performance-based models. And I think performance-based models. And I think performance-based models. And I think from a a software perspective, a sellers from a a software perspective, a sellers from a a software perspective, a sellers perspective, it always made sense. I'm perspective, it always made sense. I'm perspective, it always made sense. I'm like being able to structure this so like being able to structure this so like being able to structure this so that there's upside for us, but it that there's upside for us, but it that there's upside for us, but it actually creates a skin in the game actually creates a skin in the game actually creates a skin in the game opportunity that should align our opportunity that should align our opportunity that should align our incentives enough that it's that it's incentives enough that it's that it's incentives enough that it's that it's compelling. But I find in practice, compelling. But I find in practice, compelling. But I find in practice, you're right, like business owners, you're right, like business owners, you're right, like business owners, founder types, CEOs, they get that, but founder types, CEOs, they get that, but founder types, CEOs, they get that, but everybody downstream is so worried about everybody downstream is so worried about everybody downstream is so worried about budget that anything that creates budget that anything that creates budget that anything that creates variability in the budget ends up variability in the budget ends up variability in the budget ends up becoming harder to control, harder to becoming harder to control, harder to becoming harder to control, harder to forecast. And I I I would say that 90% forecast. And I I I would say that 90% forecast. And I I I would say that 90% of the friction I've seen around those of the friction I've seen around those of the friction I've seen around those kinds of pricing models on the software kinds of pricing models on the software kinds of pricing models on the software side, it ends up being because of that. side, it ends up being because of that. side, it ends up being because of that. It's I want to lock in my budget. I want It's I want to lock in my budget. I want It's I want to lock in my budget. I want to have opportunities to optimize and I to have opportunities to optimize and I to have opportunities to optimize and I can't do that if as the [snorts] success can't do that if as the [snorts] success can't do that if as the [snorts] success goes up the price goes up and I feel goes up the price goes up and I feel goes up the price goes up and I feel like that's always suppressed software like that's always suppressed software like that's always suppressed software sales having a performance-based model sales having a performance-based model sales having a performance-based model but on the services side it seems kind but on the services side it seems kind but on the services side it seems kind of obvious. Um, but you're right. I of obvious. Um, but you're right. I of obvious. Um, but you're right. I don't think I've been pitched that don't think I've been pitched that don't think I've been pitched that >> ever actually.

>> ever actually. >> ever actually. >> Because it it it's so rare, right? I >> Because it it it's so rare, right? I >> Because it it it's so rare, right? I mean, for me, there's there's broadly mean, for me, there's there's broadly mean, for me, there's there's broadly three ways you can you can price three ways you can you can price three ways you can you can price anything, right? Um, especially service, anything, right? Um, especially service, anything, right? Um, especially service, right? Um, input based, um, outputbased right? Um, input based, um, outputbased right? Um, input based, um, outputbased or outcome. I don't love input pricing. or outcome. I don't love input pricing. or outcome. I don't love input pricing. Input pricing is fundamentally, you Input pricing is fundamentally, you Input pricing is fundamentally, you know, how many the most the most common know, how many the most the most common know, how many the most the most common version of that is is hours, right? version of that is is hours, right? version of that is is hours, right? will, you know, we'll do you 10 hours a will, you know, we'll do you 10 hours a will, you know, we'll do you 10 hours a month, but whoever you're paying is month, but whoever you're paying is month, but whoever you're paying is incentivized to take longer, right? So incentivized to take longer, right? So incentivized to take longer, right? So whe whether or not they do or not, I whe whether or not they do or not, I whe whether or not they do or not, I don't know. But but the whole principle don't know. But but the whole principle don't know. But but the whole principle of it is that and and I think that's of it is that and and I think that's of it is that and and I think that's wrong. So So So for me, we avoid wrong. So So So for me, we avoid wrong. So So So for me, we avoid inputbased pricing unless a customer inputbased pricing unless a customer inputbased pricing unless a customer really wants it for a very short-term really wants it for a very short-term really wants it for a very short-term project because they want the project because they want the project because they want the understanding that they know they're understanding that they know they're understanding that they know they're going to pay X and get, you know, 10 going to pay X and get, you know, 10 going to pay X and get, you know, 10 hours, right? But but we try and avoid hours, right? But but we try and avoid hours, right? But but we try and avoid it. Um, basically all of our retained it. Um, basically all of our retained it. Um, basically all of our retained engagements are a blend of um output. engagements are a blend of um output. engagements are a blend of um output. We're going to produce these We're going to produce these We're going to produce these deliverables um on a on a on a monthly, deliverables um on a on a on a monthly, deliverables um on a on a on a monthly, quarterly, annual basis and um out quarterly, annual basis and um out quarterly, annual basis and um out outcome based which as close as we can outcome based which as close as we can outcome based which as close as we can possibly get should be tied around possibly get should be tied around possibly get should be tied around revenue um you know either you know MR revenue um you know either you know MR revenue um you know either you know MR ARR um you know those sorts of things ARR um you know those sorts of things ARR um you know those sorts of things but but um you know for some of our but but um you know for some of our but but um you know for some of our clients that operate in the enterprise clients that operate in the enterprise clients that operate in the enterprise that's harder especially over a shorter that's harder especially over a shorter that's harder especially over a shorter time frame so then it will come back to time frame so then it will come back to time frame so then it will come back to pipeline sometimes in examples It will pipeline sometimes in examples It will pipeline sometimes in examples It will be um uh SQLs um or or or or SRLs we

be um uh SQLs um or or or or SRLs we be um uh SQLs um or or or or SRLs we refer to them. We don't talk about MQLs. refer to them. We don't talk about MQLs. refer to them. We don't talk about MQLs. We talk about um SRL sales sales ready We talk about um SRL sales sales ready We talk about um SRL sales sales ready leads. Um uh so so we'll measure it in leads. Um uh so so we'll measure it in leads. Um uh so so we'll measure it in different ways, but as close as we can different ways, but as close as we can different ways, but as close as we can get to a dollar figure um the better. get to a dollar figure um the better. get to a dollar figure um the better. >> How do you prospect for this? How do you >> How do you prospect for this? How do you >> How do you prospect for this? How do you prospect for a willingness to engage in prospect for a willingness to engage in prospect for a willingness to engage in outcomebased pricing? outcomebased pricing? outcomebased pricing? >> Uh good question. So um look, we we we >> Uh good question. So um look, we we we >> Uh good question. So um look, we we we we have a a good understanding I think we have a a good understanding I think we have a a good understanding I think of our ICP. I would say that almost of our ICP. I would say that almost of our ICP. I would say that almost every business's ICP will change and every business's ICP will change and every business's ICP will change and shift over time. So reviewing it shift over time. So reviewing it shift over time. So reviewing it informally or formally every minimum 12 informally or formally every minimum 12 informally or formally every minimum 12 months is probably sensible. months is probably sensible. months is probably sensible. >> Um but um and and and and as I say like >> Um but um and and and and as I say like >> Um but um and and and and as I say like we have a a generally a good we have a a generally a good we have a a generally a good understanding I think of our persona as understanding I think of our persona as understanding I think of our persona as well, right? Typically that would be, well, right? Typically that would be, well, right? Typically that would be, you know, owners of organizations, you know, owners of organizations, you know, owners of organizations, co-founders, that sort of stuff. Um, co-founders, that sort of stuff. Um, co-founders, that sort of stuff. Um, marketing leaders, sales leaders, um, marketing leaders, sales leaders, um, marketing leaders, sales leaders, um, those sorts of those sorts of people. those sorts of those sorts of people. those sorts of those sorts of people. So, so we have a good understanding of So, so we have a good understanding of So, so we have a good understanding of what that what that looks like. Because what that what that looks like. Because what that what that looks like. Because we have those we have those we have those data, we can list a handful of companies data, we can list a handful of companies data, we can list a handful of companies um, and figure out ways to try and go um, and figure out ways to try and go um, and figure out ways to try and go after them. um you know about 30 to 40% after them. um you know about 30 to 40% after them. um you know about 30 to 40% of our business comes from um referrals, of our business comes from um referrals, of our business comes from um referrals, 30 40% of it comes from inbound and 30 30 40% of it comes from inbound and 30 30 40% of it comes from inbound and 30 40% of it comes from outbound activity.

40% of it comes from outbound activity. 40% of it comes from outbound activity. Um so we're fundamentally trying to find Um so we're fundamentally trying to find Um so we're fundamentally trying to find lookalike businesses that match our ICP lookalike businesses that match our ICP lookalike businesses that match our ICP and go to them and present this skin in and go to them and present this skin in and go to them and present this skin in the game offer um at the right time. the game offer um at the right time. the game offer um at the right time. [music] website. Today's episode is [music] website. Today's episode is [music] website. Today's episode is brought to you by Hunter.io, the B2B brought to you by Hunter.io, the B2B brought to you by Hunter.io, the B2B lead generation platform made for every lead generation platform made for every lead generation platform made for every profession. Whether it's prospecting, profession. Whether it's prospecting, profession. Whether it's prospecting, fundraising, recruiting, link building, fundraising, recruiting, link building, fundraising, recruiting, link building, or just trying to connect with the right or just trying to connect with the right or just trying to connect with the right people, Hunter makes it easy. people, Hunter makes it easy. people, Hunter makes it easy. >> How do you determine the right time? >> How do you determine the right time? >> How do you determine the right time? >> Good question. Uh so having done >> Good question. Uh so having done >> Good question. Uh so having done well when when I started the company two well when when I started the company two well when when I started the company two and a bit years ago I had no clients and a bit years ago I had no clients and a bit years ago I had no clients like I I decided to do this in what I like I I decided to do this in what I like I I decided to do this in what I would never recommend to do to anyone would never recommend to do to anyone would never recommend to do to anyone right which is you know fundamentally right which is you know fundamentally right which is you know fundamentally try and work two jobs for a bit if try and work two jobs for a bit if try and work two jobs for a bit if you're going to go out and and become a you're going to go out and and become a you're going to go out and and become a founder um and do your own thing either founder um and do your own thing either founder um and do your own thing either service or SAS or or whatever like build service or SAS or or whatever like build service or SAS or or whatever like build up some revenue first. I did not do up some revenue first. I did not do up some revenue first. I did not do that. Um that made the first few months that. Um that made the first few months that. Um that made the first few months very scary. Um but I pushed that very scary. Um but I pushed that very scary. Um but I pushed that skin in the game offer skin in the game offer skin in the game offer uh a reasonable amount in my first few uh a reasonable amount in my first few uh a reasonable amount in my first few months and I got a couple of a couple of months and I got a couple of a couple of months and I got a couple of a couple of bites from it and one of them became one bites from it and one of them became one bites from it and one of them became one of our first clients. Um and um we did of our first clients. Um and um we did of our first clients. Um and um we did some really really good work for them.

some really really good work for them. some really really good work for them. and we did such good work that we got and we did such good work that we got and we did such good work that we got introduced to another client um uh introduced to another client um uh introduced to another client um uh because a director of that company was because a director of that company was because a director of that company was involved in in this other business um involved in in this other business um involved in in this other business um and um you know we're going all guns and um you know we're going all guns and um you know we're going all guns blazing on that latter one. So um but blazing on that latter one. So um but blazing on that latter one. So um but but it was very focused on bottom of but it was very focused on bottom of but it was very focused on bottom of funnel. Hey, buy our product now. The funnel. Hey, buy our product now. The funnel. Hey, buy our product now. The amount of amount of amount of replies to email sent was low. Okay. replies to email sent was low. Okay. replies to email sent was low. Okay. Right. Um Right. Um Right. Um >> because you were you were doing email >> because you were you were doing email >> because you were you were doing email outreach to try to get that first set of outreach to try to get that first set of outreach to try to get that first set of customers. customers. customers. >> Yeah. A blend of email and and and and >> Yeah. A blend of email and and and and >> Yeah. A blend of email and and and and LinkedIn um uh outreach. Um I what we LinkedIn um uh outreach. Um I what we LinkedIn um uh outreach. Um I what we have since semi-pivoted to is this uh have since semi-pivoted to is this uh have since semi-pivoted to is this uh model of instead of going for the model of instead of going for the model of instead of going for the jugular as I would refer to it as and jugular as I would refer to it as and jugular as I would refer to it as and going straight for the book a demo, buy going straight for the book a demo, buy going straight for the book a demo, buy my product, jump on a sales call thing. my product, jump on a sales call thing. my product, jump on a sales call thing. um we we take a slightly different um we we take a slightly different um we we take a slightly different approach and there's and there's method approach and there's and there's method approach and there's and there's method to the madness. Like being honest, did I to the madness. Like being honest, did I to the madness. Like being honest, did I want to do that in the first few months want to do that in the first few months want to do that in the first few months of the business? No, I didn't. Right.

of the business? No, I didn't. Right. of the business? No, I didn't. Right. But um you know, the company needed But um you know, the company needed But um you know, the company needed revenue. You know, I've got two two kids revenue. You know, I've got two two kids revenue. You know, I've got two two kids at home and and uh you know, got to put at home and and uh you know, got to put at home and and uh you know, got to put food on the table and all that sort of food on the table and all that sort of food on the table and all that sort of stuff. So So the focus at that time was, stuff. So So the focus at that time was, stuff. So So the focus at that time was, you know, try and drum up some some you know, try and drum up some some you know, try and drum up some some sales interest. What we do now and what sales interest. What we do now and what sales interest. What we do now and what we advise most of our clients to do is we advise most of our clients to do is we advise most of our clients to do is work backwards from closing the deal. work backwards from closing the deal. work backwards from closing the deal. >> So in order to close a deal, right, you >> So in order to close a deal, right, you >> So in order to close a deal, right, you need if you're a SAS company, some form need if you're a SAS company, some form need if you're a SAS company, some form of demo [clears throat] or if you're a of demo [clears throat] or if you're a of demo [clears throat] or if you're a service company from some form of sales service company from some form of sales service company from some form of sales proposal. In order to get a sales proposal. In order to get a sales proposal. In order to get a sales proposal, you need to um have some form proposal, you need to um have some form proposal, you need to um have some form of interest, right? That that company of interest, right? That that company of interest, right? That that company needs to have uh an interest in the needs to have uh an interest in the needs to have uh an interest in the product or service that you're offering. product or service that you're offering. product or service that you're offering. In order to get that, you have to have In order to get that, you have to have In order to get that, you have to have some form of like relationship there. In some form of like relationship there. In some form of like relationship there. In order to get that relationship, you need order to get that relationship, you need order to get that relationship, you need to provide something of value. Um, and to provide something of value. Um, and to provide something of value. Um, and so instead of us jumping ahead to the so instead of us jumping ahead to the so instead of us jumping ahead to the end step saying, "Hey, buy my product, end step saying, "Hey, buy my product, end step saying, "Hey, buy my product, buy my product," we we we try to start buy my product," we we we try to start buy my product," we we we try to start with the value piece. And then and and with the value piece. And then and and with the value piece. And then and and and so so what we try to do now is we and so so what we try to do now is we and so so what we try to do now is we try to add value up front. You know, try to add value up front. You know, try to add value up front. You know, that there's a couple of models that I that there's a couple of models that I that there's a couple of models that I talk about. One of which is the 955 rule talk about. One of which is the 955 rule talk about. One of which is the 955 rule in B2B um which which you've probably in B2B um which which you've probably in B2B um which which you've probably heard of which is you know um that uh in heard of which is you know um that uh in heard of which is you know um that uh in any market at any given time only 95 so any market at any given time only 95 so any market at any given time only 95 so only 5% of your audience are ever in only 5% of your audience are ever in only 5% of your audience are ever in market to buy and the other 95 are out market to buy and the other 95 are out market to buy and the other 95 are out of market. The other one is um from uh of market. The other one is um from uh of market. The other one is um from uh Chat Holmes and his buyers pyramid and Chat Holmes and his buyers pyramid and Chat Holmes and his buyers pyramid and his is slightly more granular but he his is slightly more granular but he his is slightly more granular but he basically says 3% are in market. Uh

basically says 3% are in market. Uh basically says 3% are in market. Uh another 6 to 7% are about to become in another 6 to 7% are about to become in another 6 to 7% are about to become in market and then the other 90% are either market and then the other 90% are either market and then the other 90% are either not thinking about it um um never going not thinking about it um um never going not thinking about it um um never going to think about it or um aren't going to to think about it or um aren't going to to think about it or um aren't going to come into market anytime soon. So that come into market anytime soon. So that come into market anytime soon. So that means out of every, you know, 100 people means out of every, you know, 100 people means out of every, you know, 100 people that you email, only five to 10 of those that you email, only five to 10 of those that you email, only five to 10 of those are are going to be interested um in in are are going to be interested um in in are are going to be interested um in in in buying your product or service. Um in buying your product or service. Um in buying your product or service. Um and you know, there's countless stats and you know, there's countless stats and you know, there's countless stats out there to show that most companies by out there to show that most companies by out there to show that most companies by the time they actually inquire with the the time they actually inquire with the the time they actually inquire with the business, they already have a short list business, they already have a short list business, they already have a short list of potential businesses in mind. So what of potential businesses in mind. So what of potential businesses in mind. So what we try to do uh from our own marketing we try to do uh from our own marketing we try to do uh from our own marketing and sales p point of view is that um we and sales p point of view is that um we and sales p point of view is that um we try to think about where our personas try to think about where our personas try to think about where our personas are are are uh and be in those watering holes as uh and be in those watering holes as uh and be in those watering holes as often as we can do without being often as we can do without being often as we can do without being annoying so that when they go from the annoying so that when they go from the annoying so that when they go from the 95 to the 5% we're one of the people 95 to the 5% we're one of the people 95 to the 5% we're one of the people that they think of. So for example, a that they think of. So for example, a that they think of. So for example, a watering hole uh um I would say for watering hole uh um I would say for watering hole uh um I would say for people in marketing, right, would be people in marketing, right, would be people in marketing, right, would be LinkedIn and business owners as well, LinkedIn and business owners as well, LinkedIn and business owners as well, less so probably for business owners less so probably for business owners less so probably for business owners because they're not on it as much, but because they're not on it as much, but because they're not on it as much, but but but certainly for like B2B but but certainly for like B2B but but certainly for like B2B marketers, they're on they're on marketers, they're on they're on marketers, they're on they're on LinkedIn. So, you know, I uh post LinkedIn. So, you know, I uh post LinkedIn. So, you know, I uh post threeish times every single week on a threeish times every single week on a threeish times every single week on a variety of different stuff associated variety of different stuff associated variety of different stuff associated around B2B marketing. um and try to add around B2B marketing. um and try to add around B2B marketing. um and try to add value into the community. Um so so that

value into the community. Um so so that value into the community. Um so so that hopefully when those people go from the hopefully when those people go from the hopefully when those people go from the 95 into the five, we're one of the 95 into the five, we're one of the 95 into the five, we're one of the people that they think of. Um we have people that they think of. Um we have people that they think of. Um we have some things set up via HubSpot on our some things set up via HubSpot on our some things set up via HubSpot on our site that you know if if using their site that you know if if using their site that you know if if using their buyer intent fe feature that means that buyer intent fe feature that means that buyer intent fe feature that means that we can maybe do some warm outbound when we can maybe do some warm outbound when we can maybe do some warm outbound when someone visits our site, we don't get a someone visits our site, we don't get a someone visits our site, we don't get a lot of traffic but and the site's lot of traffic but and the site's lot of traffic but and the site's terrible which is being fixed at some terrible which is being fixed at some terrible which is being fixed at some point in the next few months. Um but but point in the next few months. Um but but point in the next few months. Um but but but but that as well. But what I'm but but that as well. But what I'm but but that as well. But what I'm trying what we are trying to do is add trying what we are trying to do is add trying what we are trying to do is add value first before we go for any ask um value first before we go for any ask um value first before we go for any ask um and and and and build that relationship. and and and and build that relationship. and and and and build that relationship. >> What do you what's an example of how >> What do you what's an example of how >> What do you what's an example of how you've added value when when you know you've added value when when you know you've added value when when you know they don't know who you are yet? You're they don't know who you are yet? You're they don't know who you are yet? You're trying to get trying to get trying to get >> some kind of an awareness, some kind of >> some kind of an awareness, some kind of >> some kind of an awareness, some kind of top of mind. top of mind. top of mind. >> What does that value look like? So, so I >> What does that value look like? So, so I >> What does that value look like? So, so I think that will depend on the type of think that will depend on the type of think that will depend on the type of organization that you are and what you organization that you are and what you organization that you are and what you sell and your contract value and all sell and your contract value and all sell and your contract value and all that sort of stuff. If if if you have a that sort of stuff. If if if you have a that sort of stuff. If if if you have a lower contract value, you need more lower contract value, you need more lower contract value, you need more customers. And if you have a high customers. And if you have a high customers. And if you have a high contract value, you need less customers.

contract value, you need less customers. contract value, you need less customers. And therefore, that will dictate, in my And therefore, that will dictate, in my And therefore, that will dictate, in my opinion, the value or the offers that opinion, the value or the offers that opinion, the value or the offers that you present. So, if you're doing high you present. So, if you're doing high you present. So, if you're doing high contract values, right, and when I say contract values, right, and when I say contract values, right, and when I say high, you know, I'm saying minimum high, you know, I'm saying minimum high, you know, I'm saying minimum $30,000 per year, but obviously $30,000 per year, but obviously $30,000 per year, but obviously potentially in excess of that. Things potentially in excess of that. Things potentially in excess of that. Things like um roundts, like um roundts, like um roundts, uh private dinners, breakfast briefings, uh private dinners, breakfast briefings, uh private dinners, breakfast briefings, um private events, those sorts of um private events, those sorts of um private events, those sorts of things, right? And that would sit in things, right? And that would sit in things, right? And that would sit in like onetoone outreach or one to few like onetoone outreach or one to few like onetoone outreach or one to few outreach. If you are have a lower outreach. If you are have a lower outreach. If you are have a lower contract value, right? And therefore you contract value, right? And therefore you contract value, right? And therefore you need lots of customers. You can't put on need lots of customers. You can't put on need lots of customers. You can't put on roundts because you know you spend so roundts because you know you spend so roundts because you know you spend so much money on producing that and all much money on producing that and all much money on producing that and all those sorts of things and and you don't those sorts of things and and you don't those sorts of things and and you don't get the payoff, right? So you probably get the payoff, right? So you probably get the payoff, right? So you probably have to lean into more mass value have to lean into more mass value have to lean into more mass value webinars um uh sorry value creators like webinars um uh sorry value creators like webinars um uh sorry value creators like webinars, ebooks, white papers, all webinars, ebooks, white papers, all webinars, ebooks, white papers, all those sorts of things. So you're going those sorts of things. So you're going those sorts of things. So you're going to people saying you're this type of to people saying you're this type of to people saying you're this type of persona, you have these types of persona, you have these types of persona, you have these types of challenges. Here's something that we challenges. Here's something that we challenges. Here's something that we think will help with this challenge, think will help with this challenge, think will help with this challenge, right? um would you be interested in in right? um would you be interested in in right? um would you be interested in in receiving it? Um and and and going that receiving it? Um and and and going that receiving it? Um and and and going that way and uh you know, you're bringing way and uh you know, you're bringing way and uh you know, you're bringing them into the ecosystem them into the ecosystem them into the ecosystem um into your ecosystem either via um into your ecosystem either via um into your ecosystem either via marketing, you know, social posting, marketing, you know, social posting, marketing, you know, social posting, email marketing, all that sort of stuff, email marketing, all that sort of stuff, email marketing, all that sort of stuff, or outbound um uh sales coms, you know, or outbound um uh sales coms, you know, or outbound um uh sales coms, you know, through sequencing and cadances and all through sequencing and cadances and all through sequencing and cadances and all that sort of stuff.

that sort of stuff. that sort of stuff. >> I've been experimenting a lot with AI >> I've been experimenting a lot with AI >> I've been experimenting a lot with AI managing my inbox um for obvious managing my inbox um for obvious managing my inbox um for obvious reasons. uh understanding how that tech reasons. uh understanding how that tech reasons. uh understanding how that tech is going to potentially disrupt the is going to potentially disrupt the is going to potentially disrupt the inbox is I think really important for us inbox is I think really important for us inbox is I think really important for us um but important for our customers and um but important for our customers and um but important for our customers and our audience as well. I think the value our audience as well. I think the value our audience as well. I think the value component of what you've talked about is component of what you've talked about is component of what you've talked about is something I'm really just strongly something I'm really just strongly something I'm really just strongly indexing on because I do think that is indexing on because I do think that is indexing on because I do think that is going to be something that can survive. going to be something that can survive. going to be something that can survive. Right? So the survivability of outreach Right? So the survivability of outreach Right? So the survivability of outreach I don't think is at risk, but every I don't think is at risk, but every I don't think is at risk, but every single time somebody sends another single time somebody sends another single time somebody sends another crummy outreach campaign, it feels like crummy outreach campaign, it feels like crummy outreach campaign, it feels like it dents, you know, the armor just a it dents, you know, the armor just a it dents, you know, the armor just a bit. And so the this idea of value is bit. And so the this idea of value is bit. And so the this idea of value is something that's come up a lot recently something that's come up a lot recently something that's come up a lot recently internally. It's come up on our internally. It's come up on our internally. It's come up on our webinars. And I love this because you're webinars. And I love this because you're webinars. And I love this because you're actually giving examples of like what actually giving examples of like what actually giving examples of like what does value mean to your audience and how does value mean to your audience and how does value mean to your audience and how do you put that together? And I just do you put that together? And I just do you put that together? And I just think that that's we we just need think that that's we we just need think that that's we we just need lessons I think in the you know in the lessons I think in the you know in the lessons I think in the you know in the atmosphere about how in email especially atmosphere about how in email especially atmosphere about how in email especially outreach emails can you deliver that outreach emails can you deliver that outreach emails can you deliver that value. I those are great examples. Have value. I those are great examples. Have value. I those are great examples. Have you found one item in particular that's you found one item in particular that's you found one item in particular that's been particularly high converted for you been particularly high converted for you been particularly high converted for you >> for Coleman Rose uh the roundts that we >> for Coleman Rose uh the roundts that we >> for Coleman Rose uh the roundts that we run?

run? run? >> So so in 204 we ran two in 20 we ran >> So so in 204 we ran two in 20 we ran >> So so in 204 we ran two in 20 we ran four. This year we're going to do six. four. This year we're going to do six. four. This year we're going to do six. Um, one of the roundts that we hosted in Um, one of the roundts that we hosted in Um, one of the roundts that we hosted in 24 24 24 got us two customers. Um, got us two customers. Um, got us two customers. Um, and uh, that person ended up introducing and uh, that person ended up introducing and uh, that person ended up introducing us to another one uh, to another us to another one uh, to another us to another one uh, to another customer. Uh, and the customer. Uh, and the customer. Uh, and the total cost of those six or seven roundts total cost of those six or seven roundts total cost of those six or seven roundts that we've run so far is less than that we've run so far is less than that we've run so far is less than $8,000 in total. Uh, I'm probably that's $8,000 in total. Uh, I'm probably that's $8,000 in total. Uh, I'm probably that's probably a high estimate as well. It probably a high estimate as well. It probably a high estimate as well. It might even be under $5,000. We've had might even be under $5,000. We've had might even be under $5,000. We've had north of $250,000 worth of contract north of $250,000 worth of contract north of $250,000 worth of contract value off that. value off that. value off that. >> That's fantastic. >> That's fantastic. >> That's fantastic. >> They are they are for for us, right? You >> They are they are for for us, right? You >> They are they are for for us, right? You know, our contract values are higher. know, our contract values are higher. know, our contract values are higher. that we can we can we can do that and that we can we can we can do that and that we can we can we can do that and spend some time on an event and things spend some time on an event and things spend some time on an event and things like that that there's an opportunity like that that there's an opportunity like that that there's an opportunity cost as well because you know we per cost as well because you know we per cost as well because you know we per event it's two or three days worth of event it's two or three days worth of event it's two or three days worth of organization but it's not it's not huge organization but it's not it's not huge organization but it's not it's not huge effort right it's medium to low effort effort right it's medium to low effort effort right it's medium to low effort with potentially high impact um so so so with potentially high impact um so so so with potentially high impact um so so so for us we we we rinse and repeat that for us we we we rinse and repeat that for us we we we rinse and repeat that right and I think that any company that right and I think that any company that right and I think that any company that is having contracts of $30,000 and up is having contracts of $30,000 and up is having contracts of $30,000 and up should be figuring out ways to run should be figuring out ways to run should be figuring out ways to run private events um in some way shape or private events um in some way shape or private events um in some way shape or form form form um for for lower value contracts or um for for lower value contracts or um for for lower value contracts or lower contract values, you know, if lower contract values, you know, if lower contract values, you know, if you're sub 10,000 5,000, you need to

you're sub 10,000 5,000, you need to you're sub 10,000 5,000, you need to lean into something else, right? Because lean into something else, right? Because lean into something else, right? Because as I mentioned earlier, you you can't as I mentioned earlier, you you can't as I mentioned earlier, you you can't spend the time and effort doing onetoone spend the time and effort doing onetoone spend the time and effort doing onetoone invites and things like that. Um but but invites and things like that. Um but but invites and things like that. Um but but then that's stuff like webinars, ebooks, then that's stuff like webinars, ebooks, then that's stuff like webinars, ebooks, bringing them into the ecosystem um that bringing them into the ecosystem um that bringing them into the ecosystem um that way and trying to tie it in with um you way and trying to tie it in with um you way and trying to tie it in with um you know effective sales outreach so that know effective sales outreach so that know effective sales outreach so that once you've provided some value, you've once you've provided some value, you've once you've provided some value, you've got some engagement um you you you you got some engagement um you you you you got some engagement um you you you you try and find ways to to get that demo a try and find ways to to get that demo a try and find ways to to get that demo a at the right moment. So at the right moment. So at the right moment. So >> yeah, this is great. I'm you know the >> yeah, this is great. I'm you know the >> yeah, this is great. I'm you know the right moment concept. This is something right moment concept. This is something right moment concept. This is something I think that comes up in every podcast I think that comes up in every podcast I think that comes up in every podcast episode at some point because I have a episode at some point because I have a episode at some point because I have a really strong bias that despite all the really strong bias that despite all the really strong bias that despite all the signals and despite all the sort of signals and despite all the sort of signals and despite all the sort of on-site behavior that the timing is the on-site behavior that the timing is the on-site behavior that the timing is the one thing you can't predict like you can one thing you can't predict like you can one thing you can't predict like you can you can predict every other variable. you can predict every other variable. you can predict every other variable. You know if you want to say you have the You know if you want to say you have the You know if you want to say you have the right message to the right person at the right message to the right person at the right message to the right person at the right time I think you can get the first right time I think you can get the first right time I think you can get the first two. I think that's an absolutely doable two. I think that's an absolutely doable two. I think that's an absolutely doable thing. I just don't I think you are thing. I just don't I think you are thing. I just don't I think you are better off planning to not be able to better off planning to not be able to better off planning to not be able to nail timing because I think that nail timing because I think that nail timing because I think that influences your strategy and I think it influences your strategy and I think it influences your strategy and I think it builds a little bit more protection in builds a little bit more protection in builds a little bit more protection in that your messaging is probably going to that your messaging is probably going to that your messaging is probably going to resonate a little bit longer. You're resonate a little bit longer. You're resonate a little bit longer. You're probably going to make more of an probably going to make more of an probably going to make more of an impression about hey you know this this impression about hey you know this this impression about hey you know this this oh yeah there's this pain point and I oh yeah there's this pain point and I oh yeah there's this pain point and I think we all have this as people who think we all have this as people who think we all have this as people who operate a business. there's a pain point operate a business. there's a pain point operate a business. there's a pain point you know you have you know it's not a you know you have you know it's not a you know you have you know it's not a high priority at this moment but you

high priority at this moment but you high priority at this moment but you know at some point you're going to have know at some point you're going to have know at some point you're going to have to deal with that pain and to me that's to deal with that pain and to me that's to deal with that pain and to me that's one of the benefits of email outreach one of the benefits of email outreach one of the benefits of email outreach why I believe in it so strongly is that why I believe in it so strongly is that why I believe in it so strongly is that that's an opportunity to create a touch that's an opportunity to create a touch that's an opportunity to create a touch point that's different from advertising point that's different from advertising point that's different from advertising that says hey if you have this pain this that says hey if you have this pain this that says hey if you have this pain this is a thing we can help with and I don't is a thing we can help with and I don't is a thing we can help with and I don't think you're you know I can't like you think you're you know I can't like you think you're you know I can't like you said there's 5% that's likely to have said there's 5% that's likely to have said there's 5% that's likely to have the pain right now everybody else I just the pain right now everybody else I just the pain right now everybody else I just want to have a little seed in the back want to have a little seed in the back want to have a little seed in the back of their mind that I plan for when that of their mind that I plan for when that of their mind that I plan for when that moment comes up. And I've seen that work moment comes up. And I've seen that work moment comes up. And I've seen that work and I've seen that be valuable. But and I've seen that be valuable. But and I've seen that be valuable. But because of what you said in the because of what you said in the because of what you said in the beginning, I think most people come in beginning, I think most people come in beginning, I think most people come in and they're like, "Oh, I need I need and they're like, "Oh, I need I need and they're like, "Oh, I need I need meetings booked. I need conversions. I meetings booked. I need conversions. I meetings booked. I need conversions. I want to try tie this to revenue want to try tie this to revenue want to try tie this to revenue directly." And I think that ends up directly." And I think that ends up directly." And I think that ends up hurting their success rate with with hurting their success rate with with hurting their success rate with with their outreach. And I feel like you've their outreach. And I feel like you've their outreach. And I feel like you've you've organized your process really you've organized your process really you've organized your process really well to account for all of that. well to account for all of that. well to account for all of that. >> Yeah. and and and and the other thing I >> Yeah. and and and and the other thing I >> Yeah. and and and and the other thing I would say is that this is maybe a bit would say is that this is maybe a bit would say is that this is maybe a bit maybe a bit hacky but uh and and it's maybe a bit hacky but uh and and it's maybe a bit hacky but uh and and it's very tactical but we found this very tactical but we found this very tactical but we found this effective that once you have that effective that once you have that effective that once you have that relationship relationship relationship uh you go to someone and say something uh you go to someone and say something uh you go to someone and say something along these sorts of lines. Um, hey, along these sorts of lines. Um, hey, along these sorts of lines. Um, hey, like I hope it's okay to ask ask this like I hope it's okay to ask ask this like I hope it's okay to ask ask this question, but um, appreciate you may not question, but um, appreciate you may not question, but um, appreciate you may not be looking right now for enter your be looking right now for enter your be looking right now for enter your service or product um, product category, service or product um, product category, service or product um, product category, but the next time you go to review it, but the next time you go to review it, but the next time you go to review it, what would it take for us to get onto what would it take for us to get onto what would it take for us to get onto the short list of suppliers?

the short list of suppliers? the short list of suppliers? >> That's a great one. >> That's a great one. >> That's a great one. >> And and and it's such a subtle way >> And and and it's such a subtle way >> And and and it's such a subtle way instead of saying, "Hey, do you want to instead of saying, "Hey, do you want to instead of saying, "Hey, do you want to jump on a demo?" You're saying, "Look, jump on a demo?" You're saying, "Look, jump on a demo?" You're saying, "Look, when you're ready, what can we do to when you're ready, what can we do to when you're ready, what can we do to ensure that we're one of the people that ensure that we're one of the people that ensure that we're one of the people that you think about?" And and and for us, you think about?" And and and for us, you think about?" And and and for us, that is a that has been very effective that is a that has been very effective that is a that has been very effective to try and open up some opportunities to try and open up some opportunities to try and open up some opportunities because then they turn around and say, because then they turn around and say, because then they turn around and say, you know, almost always you get a reply, you know, almost always you get a reply, you know, almost always you get a reply, right? I would say 99% of the time you right? I would say 99% of the time you right? I would say 99% of the time you get you you get a reply. Um and they get you you get a reply. Um and they get you you get a reply. Um and they say, "We're not currently looking right say, "We're not currently looking right say, "We're not currently looking right now." Or they say, "Well, actually, now." Or they say, "Well, actually, now." Or they say, "Well, actually, we're going to be thinking about this we're going to be thinking about this we're going to be thinking about this next month." And I used that very next month." And I used that very next month." And I used that very template last year and closed a piece of template last year and closed a piece of template last year and closed a piece of business within six or eight weeks of business within six or eight weeks of business within six or eight weeks of that happening because they said as it that happening because they said as it that happening because they said as it happens we we're starting to think about happens we we're starting to think about happens we we're starting to think about this soon. Let's have a chat. this soon. Let's have a chat. this soon. Let's have a chat. >> Um and and and that's a very good way >> Um and and and that's a very good way >> Um and and and that's a very good way like like I could not agree more with like like I could not agree more with like like I could not agree more with you. You cannot I think marketers and you. You cannot I think marketers and you. You cannot I think marketers and sales people in general would like to sales people in general would like to sales people in general would like to think that they can control the 95 going think that they can control the 95 going think that they can control the 95 going into the five. You can't, right? like into the five. You can't, right? like into the five. You can't, right? like you can try and influence it but you you can try and influence it but you you can try and influence it but you can't control that moment right you you can't control that moment right you you can't control that moment right you you know because it will be a new CMO comes know because it will be a new CMO comes know because it will be a new CMO comes in or or an a new um chief revenue come in or or an a new um chief revenue come in or or an a new um chief revenue come officer comes into the business and says officer comes into the business and says officer comes into the business and says no no we're now going to do this and no no we're now going to do this and no no we're now going to do this and then all of a sudden people start moving then all of a sudden people start moving then all of a sudden people start moving in in certain directions right but but in in certain directions right but but in in certain directions right but but what you can try to do is put yourself what you can try to do is put yourself what you can try to do is put yourself in the crosshairs so that when they do in the crosshairs so that when they do in the crosshairs so that when they do go from the 95 to the five you're one of go from the 95 to the five you're one of go from the 95 to the five you're one of the people that they think of and that's the people that they think of and that's the people that they think of and that's why multi- channelannel email LinkedIn why multi- channelannel email LinkedIn why multi- channelannel email LinkedIn social posting, potentially LinkedIn

social posting, potentially LinkedIn social posting, potentially LinkedIn ads, email marketing, all these things ads, email marketing, all these things ads, email marketing, all these things have to try and work in unison um for have to try and work in unison um for have to try and work in unison um for those things to happen. those things to happen. those things to happen. >> Yeah, I'm a big fan of adding >> Yeah, I'm a big fan of adding >> Yeah, I'm a big fan of adding retargeting. Um it's it allows you to retargeting. Um it's it allows you to retargeting. Um it's it allows you to control the costs um of advertising and control the costs um of advertising and control the costs um of advertising and getting a visual to go along with your getting a visual to go along with your getting a visual to go along with your email is a really I think it's a really email is a really I think it's a really email is a really I think it's a really powerful way to capitalize on on the way powerful way to capitalize on on the way powerful way to capitalize on on the way the brain works. Um you know, it it the brain works. Um you know, it it the brain works. Um you know, it it feels like more touch points than it feels like more touch points than it feels like more touch points than it actually is. Um, especially since actually is. Um, especially since actually is. Um, especially since retargeting, you're going to see that retargeting, you're going to see that retargeting, you're going to see that two or three or four times. And I can't two or three or four times. And I can't two or three or four times. And I can't tell you how many times personally tell you how many times personally tell you how many times personally before even getting into this space. I before even getting into this space. I before even getting into this space. I would see an email, think about it, and would see an email, think about it, and would see an email, think about it, and then I would get 6,000 more emails and then I would get 6,000 more emails and then I would get 6,000 more emails and move on. And then I see the ad later and move on. And then I see the ad later and move on. And then I see the ad later and I'm like, "Oh, yeah." Or the LinkedIn I'm like, "Oh, yeah." Or the LinkedIn I'm like, "Oh, yeah." Or the LinkedIn post or whatever. And just that second post or whatever. And just that second post or whatever. And just that second touch point is can be so much so touch point is can be so much so touch point is can be so much so powerful at cementing that really subtle powerful at cementing that really subtle powerful at cementing that really subtle brand that often subliminal brand brand that often subliminal brand brand that often subliminal brand impression that you got out of the first impression that you got out of the first impression that you got out of the first one. Um, that's I harp a lot on making one. Um, that's I harp a lot on making one. Um, that's I harp a lot on making sure your brand is present in the email sure your brand is present in the email sure your brand is present in the email for that reason. You want to get as much for that reason. You want to get as much for that reason. You want to get as much value out of that brand impression as value out of that brand impression as value out of that brand impression as possible.

possible. possible. >> Yeah, 100%. I couldn't I couldn't agree >> Yeah, 100%. I couldn't I couldn't agree >> Yeah, 100%. I couldn't I couldn't agree more. The the the the the more. The the the the the more. The the the the the challenge with stuff like that is that challenge with stuff like that is that challenge with stuff like that is that especially with digital over the past especially with digital over the past especially with digital over the past sort of 20 years or so, sort of 20 years or so, sort of 20 years or so, a big reason why people have promoted a big reason why people have promoted a big reason why people have promoted digital advertising and digital digital advertising and digital digital advertising and digital marketing and all this sort of stuff is marketing and all this sort of stuff is marketing and all this sort of stuff is because it's been seen as like super because it's been seen as like super because it's been seen as like super measurable, right? you can measure this measurable, right? you can measure this measurable, right? you can measure this and all that sort of stuff and and it and all that sort of stuff and and it and all that sort of stuff and and it and that is true to a point, right? It and that is true to a point, right? It and that is true to a point, right? It is arguably more measurable than than is arguably more measurable than than is arguably more measurable than than offline stuff because you can measure offline stuff because you can measure offline stuff because you can measure clicks and things like that and and clicks and things like that and and clicks and things like that and and occasionally you can measure measure occasionally you can measure measure occasionally you can measure measure views and uh views of ads and and those views and uh views of ads and and those views and uh views of ads and and those sorts of things. But with AI search and sorts of things. But with AI search and sorts of things. But with AI search and with privacy, you know, um complaints with privacy, you know, um complaints with privacy, you know, um complaints and concerns uh globally, it's only and concerns uh globally, it's only and concerns uh globally, it's only going to get harder. Um, which therefore going to get harder. Um, which therefore going to get harder. Um, which therefore means you need to figure out ways to be means you need to figure out ways to be means you need to figure out ways to be as present as you can as a cost- as present as you can as a cost- as present as you can as a cost- effectively as you can on the channels effectively as you can on the channels effectively as you can on the channels and the areas where your buyers hang and the areas where your buyers hang and the areas where your buyers hang out. Back to the watering holes um uh out. Back to the watering holes um uh out. Back to the watering holes um uh discussion that we that that we had discussion that we that that we had discussion that we that that we had earlier um to capitalize when they go earlier um to capitalize when they go earlier um to capitalize when they go from the 95 into the five.

from the 95 into the five. from the 95 into the five. >> This is great advice. It's like I feel >> This is great advice. It's like I feel >> This is great advice. It's like I feel like you know you're you're living it like you know you're you're living it like you know you're you're living it still daily, but also just that genesis still daily, but also just that genesis still daily, but also just that genesis story of how you landed your first story of how you landed your first story of how you landed your first couple clients and got the business couple clients and got the business couple clients and got the business started I think is really valuable. H started I think is really valuable. H started I think is really valuable. H I'm curious how long do you think it I'm curious how long do you think it I'm curious how long do you think it took from took from took from you left you said I'm going to go out on you left you said I'm going to go out on you left you said I'm going to go out on my own to that first client check. How my own to that first client check. How my own to that first client check. How long was that period of time? long was that period of time? long was that period of time? >> I So I was thinking about doing it in >> I So I was thinking about doing it in >> I So I was thinking about doing it in the middle of 24. I mean to be fair the middle of 24. I mean to be fair the middle of 24. I mean to be fair quick very quick story like my my quick very quick story like my my quick very quick story like my my original plan when I left university was original plan when I left university was original plan when I left university was go and get a job in in London uh and I go and get a job in in London uh and I go and get a job in in London uh and I did that it was a job I didn't enjoy and did that it was a job I didn't enjoy and did that it was a job I didn't enjoy and I left after 4 days and I was like I I left after 4 days and I was like I I left after 4 days and I was like I want to go self-employed cuz my dad had want to go self-employed cuz my dad had want to go self-employed cuz my dad had been self-employed my brother was was been self-employed my brother was was been self-employed my brother was was self-employed and I was like eventually self-employed and I was like eventually self-employed and I was like eventually I want to do this so I did that for a I want to do this so I did that for a I want to do this so I did that for a couple of years felt like I wasn't couple of years felt like I wasn't couple of years felt like I wasn't progressing as much as I wanted to went progressing as much as I wanted to went progressing as much as I wanted to went and got a job and my plan was two years and got a job and my plan was two years and got a job and my plan was two years agency two years in house and then go agency two years in house and then go agency two years in house and then go and start my own company somehow I ended and start my own company somehow I ended and start my own company somehow I ended up 11 years into a 4-year journey and up 11 years into a 4-year journey and up 11 years into a 4-year journey and still hadn't started my own business.

still hadn't started my own business. still hadn't started my own business. Um, so the starter line towards the back Um, so the starter line towards the back Um, so the starter line towards the back end of 24 as I say and I and I took the end of 24 as I say and I and I took the end of 24 as I say and I and I took the leap. I registered the company on I knew leap. I registered the company on I knew leap. I registered the company on I knew I was going to do it but I um I I was going to do it but I um I I was going to do it but I um I registered the company on the 16th of registered the company on the 16th of registered the company on the 16th of November 24. I got verbal confirmation November 24. I got verbal confirmation November 24. I got verbal confirmation on my first client early December. on my first client early December. on my first client early December. Um, and then I got my second one on the Um, and then I got my second one on the Um, and then I got my second one on the 1st of Janu where we kicked off on the 1st of Janu where we kicked off on the 1st of Janu where we kicked off on the 1st of January, but I've been teeing it 1st of January, but I've been teeing it 1st of January, but I've been teeing it up for a few months before that being up for a few months before that being up for a few months before that being like, I think I'm going to do this like, I think I'm going to do this like, I think I'm going to do this thing. Would you be interested in having thing. Would you be interested in having thing. Would you be interested in having a discussion? All those sorts of things. a discussion? All those sorts of things. a discussion? All those sorts of things. The the one thing I would say about The the one thing I would say about The the one thing I would say about outbound generally, right, is that you outbound generally, right, is that you outbound generally, right, is that you need to warm it up as much as you need to warm it up as much as you need to warm it up as much as you possibly can. Beg, borrow, steal intros possibly can. Beg, borrow, steal intros possibly can. Beg, borrow, steal intros and referrals and all that sort of and referrals and all that sort of and referrals and all that sort of stuff. Like LinkedIn for B2B is your is stuff. Like LinkedIn for B2B is your is stuff. Like LinkedIn for B2B is your is your best friend here. you know, mining your best friend here. you know, mining your best friend here. you know, mining mutual connections and going to your mutual connections and going to your mutual connections and going to your people that you know and saying, "Hey, people that you know and saying, "Hey, people that you know and saying, "Hey, how well [clears throat] do you know how well [clears throat] do you know how well [clears throat] do you know these three people and they chances are these three people and they chances are these three people and they chances are most people come back and go, "Well, I most people come back and go, "Well, I most people come back and go, "Well, I don't know that person or that person, don't know that person or that person, don't know that person or that person, but I know them." And be like, "Ah, c but I know them." And be like, "Ah, c but I know them." And be like, "Ah, c can you introduce me?" And it just makes can you introduce me?" And it just makes can you introduce me?" And it just makes all of this stuff so much easier because all of this stuff so much easier because all of this stuff so much easier because out so hard. [laughter] It's it's so out so hard. [laughter] It's it's so out so hard. [laughter] It's it's so hard to be able to break through, hard to be able to break through, hard to be able to break through, especially in a in as a commodity. Um, especially in a in as a commodity. Um, especially in a in as a commodity. Um, you know, like a like a service provider you know, like a like a service provider you know, like a like a service provider in in in marketing services. Um, so, um, in in in marketing services. Um, so, um, in in in marketing services. Um, so, um, yeah, to come back to your question, I yeah, to come back to your question, I yeah, to come back to your question, I mean, you know, technically two weeks, mean, you know, technically two weeks, mean, you know, technically two weeks, but actually it was a few months of like but actually it was a few months of like but actually it was a few months of like small pockets of conversations to to to small pockets of conversations to to to small pockets of conversations to to to build that up.

build that up. build that up. >> Okay, changing gears. This is great. Um, >> Okay, changing gears. This is great. Um, >> Okay, changing gears. This is great. Um, I want to talk about tech briefly before I want to talk about tech briefly before I want to talk about tech briefly before we run out of time. uh you know there we run out of time. uh you know there we run out of time. uh you know there are companies where their tech is their are companies where their tech is their are companies where their tech is their company and I don't mean just SAS company and I don't mean just SAS company and I don't mean just SAS companies but I've talked to a lot of companies but I've talked to a lot of companies but I've talked to a lot of agencies where they they sort of build a agencies where they they sort of build a agencies where they they sort of build a pipeline tool and their job what they're pipeline tool and their job what they're pipeline tool and their job what they're trying to do is just put as many people trying to do is just put as many people trying to do is just put as many people through that as possible and the tech through that as possible and the tech through that as possible and the tech stack is a critical [snorts] part of stack is a critical [snorts] part of stack is a critical [snorts] part of their business but so far as we've their business but so far as we've their business but so far as we've talked about this I think other than talked about this I think other than talked about this I think other than LinkedIn and outreach you haven't really LinkedIn and outreach you haven't really LinkedIn and outreach you haven't really talked a lot about the technology side talked a lot about the technology side talked a lot about the technology side of it Um, how critical do you find tech of it Um, how critical do you find tech of it Um, how critical do you find tech stack for you? And when you're working stack for you? And when you're working stack for you? And when you're working with your clients, do you tend to drive with your clients, do you tend to drive with your clients, do you tend to drive or try to influence the kind of tech or try to influence the kind of tech or try to influence the kind of tech they're using? I'd love to hear more they're using? I'd love to hear more they're using? I'd love to hear more about this aspect of your relationships about this aspect of your relationships about this aspect of your relationships with folks. with folks. with folks. >> So tech for me is an enabler. >> So tech for me is an enabler. >> So tech for me is an enabler. >> Okay. >> Okay. >> Okay. >> Right. You can still do all this stuff >> Right. You can still do all this stuff >> Right. You can still do all this stuff without having a CRM system using, you without having a CRM system using, you without having a CRM system using, you know, just a spreadsheet or some or pen know, just a spreadsheet or some or pen know, just a spreadsheet or some or pen and paper. Right? All of it just makes and paper. Right? All of it just makes and paper. Right? All of it just makes it faster, easier, you know, especially it faster, easier, you know, especially it faster, easier, you know, especially in the age of AI and and and all those in the age of AI and and and all those in the age of AI and and and all those sorts of things. Um, so I've I've I've technology tools that I tend to lean technology tools that I tend to lean towards towards towards um and recommend because I've personally um and recommend because I've personally um and recommend because I've personally experienced them and think they do a experienced them and think they do a experienced them and think they do a good job. Um, in terms of what that good job. Um, in terms of what that good job. Um, in terms of what that looks like, um, I, as I mentioned looks like, um, I, as I mentioned looks like, um, I, as I mentioned earlier, like I got introduced to earlier, like I got introduced to earlier, like I got introduced to HubSpot ecosystem before HubSpot even

HubSpot ecosystem before HubSpot even HubSpot ecosystem before HubSpot even had a CRM. It was it was it was just the had a CRM. It was it was it was just the had a CRM. It was it was it was just the marketing hub as they call it now, but marketing hub as they call it now, but marketing hub as they call it now, but it was just a marketing automation it was just a marketing automation it was just a marketing automation platform with a couple of other pits, platform with a couple of other pits, platform with a couple of other pits, right? But we do a lot of our work in right? But we do a lot of our work in right? But we do a lot of our work in and around the HubSpot ecosystem. And I and around the HubSpot ecosystem. And I and around the HubSpot ecosystem. And I think they've been very smart with the think they've been very smart with the think they've been very smart with the way that they built that platform to way that they built that platform to way that they built that platform to enable lots of other tools to connect enable lots of other tools to connect enable lots of other tools to connect into it. So that's often one of the main into it. So that's often one of the main into it. So that's often one of the main things, but it but it doesn't matter things, but it but it doesn't matter things, but it but it doesn't matter whether you use HubSpot or Salesforce or whether you use HubSpot or Salesforce or whether you use HubSpot or Salesforce or or Pipe Drive or Zoho or whatever. In my or Pipe Drive or Zoho or whatever. In my or Pipe Drive or Zoho or whatever. In my opinion, I just think that HubSpot opinion, I just think that HubSpot opinion, I just think that HubSpot arguably does does the best job of it. arguably does does the best job of it. arguably does does the best job of it. Um for for actual outreach and things Um for for actual outreach and things Um for for actual outreach and things like that, we tend to work with like that, we tend to work with like that, we tend to work with customers on a variety of different customers on a variety of different customers on a variety of different systems. um the from a data enrichment systems. um the from a data enrichment systems. um the from a data enrichment point of view um Apollo uh Freckle and point of view um Apollo uh Freckle and point of view um Apollo uh Freckle and then we've honestly we've just started then we've honestly we've just started then we've honestly we've just started getting involved a little bit more with getting involved a little bit more with getting involved a little bit more with with with Hunter um and then there's with with Hunter um and then there's with with Hunter um and then there's other tools um out there um from like a other tools um out there um from like a other tools um out there um from like a sequencing perspective that you know sequencing perspective that you know sequencing perspective that you know HubSpot sequences can but it's not great HubSpot sequences can but it's not great HubSpot sequences can but it's not great for volume outbound I think it's better for volume outbound I think it's better for volume outbound I think it's better for like inbound stuff um uh and and and for like inbound stuff um uh and and and for like inbound stuff um uh and and and there's tools there that that that that there's tools there that that that that there's tools there that that that that we've messed around with. But I think um we've messed around with. But I think um we've messed around with. But I think um honestly like I still come back to tech honestly like I still come back to tech honestly like I still come back to tech just being an an enabler of all of this just being an an enabler of all of this just being an an enabler of all of this thing and whether you use um Hunter or thing and whether you use um Hunter or thing and whether you use um Hunter or Apollo or whatever it is, it probably Apollo or whatever it is, it probably Apollo or whatever it is, it probably comes a little bit down to like personal comes a little bit down to like personal comes a little bit down to like personal preference on what can fit in with your preference on what can fit in with your preference on what can fit in with your ecosystem. So ecosystem. So ecosystem. So >> well obviously I'm sure in the sales

>> well obviously I'm sure in the sales >> well obviously I'm sure in the sales process I would argue that point. But process I would argue that point. But process I would argue that point. But yes, I agree with your uh with your yes, I agree with your uh with your yes, I agree with your uh with your comment and I'm I'm actually very comment and I'm I'm actually very comment and I'm I'm actually very pragmatic of this. think people need to pragmatic of this. think people need to pragmatic of this. think people need to find the tool that makes the most sense find the tool that makes the most sense find the tool that makes the most sense for their workflows. for their workflows. for their workflows. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Interestingly, AI is going to disrupt >> Interestingly, AI is going to disrupt >> Interestingly, AI is going to disrupt the heck out of that. Workflows are the heck out of that. Workflows are the heck out of that. Workflows are going to be the most commodity portion, going to be the most commodity portion, going to be the most commodity portion, which they didn't used to be. Um, so which they didn't used to be. Um, so which they didn't used to be. Um, so this is going to be kind of an this is going to be kind of an this is going to be kind of an interesting transition. Um, this is interesting transition. Um, this is interesting transition. Um, this is great. Thank you. I love that you uh great. Thank you. I love that you uh great. Thank you. I love that you uh reduce the importance of tech stack reduce the importance of tech stack reduce the importance of tech stack because if you look at LinkedIn, because if you look at LinkedIn, because if you look at LinkedIn, LinkedIn would tell you that tech stack LinkedIn would tell you that tech stack LinkedIn would tell you that tech stack is like the most important piece of your is like the most important piece of your is like the most important piece of your outreach process. Um, and you know, as outreach process. Um, and you know, as outreach process. Um, and you know, as much as I would like everybody to use much as I would like everybody to use much as I would like everybody to use Hunter, uh, I think you've got to get Hunter, uh, I think you've got to get Hunter, uh, I think you've got to get other things right before the outreach other things right before the outreach other things right before the outreach process is really all that productive process is really all that productive process is really all that productive for you. Um, to close up, give give some for you. Um, to close up, give give some for you. Um, to close up, give give some advice. Uh, favorite podcast that you're advice. Uh, favorite podcast that you're advice. Uh, favorite podcast that you're listening to, uh, book that you're listening to, uh, book that you're listening to, uh, book that you're finding particularly inspirational. finding particularly inspirational. finding particularly inspirational. What's what's, uh, what's something that What's what's, uh, what's something that What's what's, uh, what's something that you'd love to influence people who are you'd love to influence people who are you'd love to influence people who are listening? Uh, so I I think it depends listening? Uh, so I I think it depends listening? Uh, so I I think it depends on what your main focus is. So the new on what your main focus is. So the new on what your main focus is. So the new email newsletter that I probably email newsletter that I probably email newsletter that I probably recommended more than any other in the recommended more than any other in the recommended more than any other in the last 12 to 18 months is Kyle Po's Growth last 12 to 18 months is Kyle Po's Growth last 12 to 18 months is Kyle Po's Growth Unhinged.

Unhinged. Unhinged. >> Um, I I I recommend that a lot to >> Um, I I I recommend that a lot to >> Um, I I I recommend that a lot to people. for um sales and outbound um Sam people. for um sales and outbound um Sam people. for um sales and outbound um Sam McKenna's um uh or Sam sales uh her McKenna's um uh or Sam sales uh her McKenna's um uh or Sam sales uh her newsletter and the content that she puts newsletter and the content that she puts newsletter and the content that she puts out is is is very very good. Um as is 30 out is is is very very good. Um as is 30 out is is is very very good. Um as is 30 Minutes to President's Club's content, I Minutes to President's Club's content, I Minutes to President's Club's content, I think theirs is pretty pretty good. Um, think theirs is pretty pretty good. Um, think theirs is pretty pretty good. Um, and for for marketing, the the two that and for for marketing, the the two that and for for marketing, the the two that I probably read the most, one is um, do I probably read the most, one is um, do I probably read the most, one is um, do what works is Substack um, that they what works is Substack um, that they what works is Substack um, that they push out and and and Emily Kramer's as push out and and and Emily Kramer's as push out and and and Emily Kramer's as well. Um, but I think it, you know, my well. Um, but I think it, you know, my well. Um, but I think it, you know, my my role spans quite a bit within within my role spans quite a bit within within my role spans quite a bit within within GTM across both sales and marketing. So, GTM across both sales and marketing. So, GTM across both sales and marketing. So, which makes it hard because there's a which makes it hard because there's a which makes it hard because there's a lot to read and there's a lot I don't lot to read and there's a lot I don't lot to read and there's a lot I don't know and um, uh, and and and and and try know and um, uh, and and and and and try know and um, uh, and and and and and try and catch up on, but but um, yeah, and catch up on, but but um, yeah, and catch up on, but but um, yeah, they're the they're the things that I they're the they're the things that I they're the they're the things that I tend to to dive into most at the moment. tend to to dive into most at the moment. tend to to dive into most at the moment. So So So >> that's great. Yeah, Neuron is one for >> that's great. Yeah, Neuron is one for >> that's great. Yeah, Neuron is one for AI. I I mean, of all of the jillion AI. I I mean, of all of the jillion AI. I I mean, of all of the jillion emails or Substack updates that have emails or Substack updates that have emails or Substack updates that have gotten put out there, I feel like the gotten put out there, I feel like the gotten put out there, I feel like the Neuron is probably my favorite for for Neuron is probably my favorite for for Neuron is probably my favorite for for AI. So if you're if you're looking to AI. So if you're if you're looking to AI. So if you're if you're looking to supplement Matthew's really great list, supplement Matthew's really great list, supplement Matthew's really great list, um there's one I would recommend, his um there's one I would recommend, his um there's one I would recommend, his email newsletter. Matthew, this has been email newsletter. Matthew, this has been email newsletter. Matthew, this has been a pleasure. Um anything you want to make a pleasure. Um anything you want to make a pleasure. Um anything you want to make sure you mention before we uh before we sure you mention before we uh before we sure you mention before we uh before we wrap? I suppose the one thing I would wrap? I suppose the one thing I would wrap? I suppose the one thing I would probably say and I advise to a lot of my probably say and I advise to a lot of my probably say and I advise to a lot of my clients is that especially clients is that especially clients is that especially [clears throat] with everything going on [clears throat] with everything going on [clears throat] with everything going on with AI at the moment, go left when with AI at the moment, go left when with AI at the moment, go left when others go right. Like if everyone's

others go right. Like if everyone's others go right. Like if everyone's jumping on a trend and a bandwagon, what jumping on a trend and a bandwagon, what jumping on a trend and a bandwagon, what can you do that's the exact opposite of can you do that's the exact opposite of can you do that's the exact opposite of that to stand out? that to stand out? that to stand out? >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Um I I I I think that's pretty good >> Um I I I I think that's pretty good >> Um I I I I think that's pretty good advice. advice. advice. >> Love it. Dropping a gold nugget on the >> Love it. Dropping a gold nugget on the >> Love it. Dropping a gold nugget on the way out the door. Brilliant. Matthew, way out the door. Brilliant. Matthew, way out the door. Brilliant. Matthew, it's [music] a pleasure. Thanks so much it's [music] a pleasure. Thanks so much it's [music] a pleasure. Thanks so much for this. Thank you. If you like what for this. Thank you. If you like what for this. Thank you. If you like what you heard, please like, subscribe, and you heard, please like, subscribe, and you heard, please like, subscribe, and explore even more of the Outbox explore even more of the Outbox explore even more of the Outbox community by visiting community by visiting community by visiting www.outfox.hunter.io.