Outfoxed podcast by Hunter.io | Ep.8: Ryan Rogers on trying all you can to win a customer

This is Outfox, the podcast brought to This is Outfox, the podcast brought to you by hunter.io, you by hunter.io, you by hunter.io, the trusted B2B lead generation platform the trusted B2B lead generation platform the trusted B2B lead generation platform built for every professional. Get ready built for every professional. Get ready built for every professional. Get ready for no playbooks, no posturing, and no for no playbooks, no posturing, and no for no playbooks, no posturing, and no egos. I'm your host, Hunter's head of egos. I'm your host, Hunter's head of egos. I'm your host, Hunter's head of marketing, James Milson, and my guest marketing, James Milson, and my guest marketing, James Milson, and my guest today is inventor Ryan Rogers. [music] today is inventor Ryan Rogers. [music] today is inventor Ryan Rogers. [music] Let's get into it. We've been talking Let's get into it. We've been talking Let's get into it. We've been talking back and forth a little bit over the back and forth a little bit over the back and forth a little bit over the last couple of months and uh without Fox last couple of months and uh without Fox last couple of months and uh without Fox I really wanted to get you on to the I really wanted to get you on to the I really wanted to get you on to the show because I feel like you are a very show because I feel like you are a very show because I feel like you are a very pragmatic and realistic person and I pragmatic and realistic person and I pragmatic and realistic person and I think [clears throat] there's no better think [clears throat] there's no better think [clears throat] there's no better sort of person to speak to our audience sort of person to speak to our audience sort of person to speak to our audience than someone like yourself who who goes than someone like yourself who who goes than someone like yourself who who goes through the highs, goes through the lows through the highs, goes through the lows through the highs, goes through the lows of what it is that you're doing and and of what it is that you're doing and and of what it is that you're doing and and that's building something that you you that's building something that you you that's building something that you you care deeply about. Um so thank you for care deeply about. Um so thank you for care deeply about. Um so thank you for joining us today. Um, before we get into joining us today. Um, before we get into joining us today. Um, before we get into sort of talking about what's going on in sort of talking about what's going on in sort of talking about what's going on in your world and how you, you know, you're your world and how you, you know, you're your world and how you, you know, you're building things, could you just quickly building things, could you just quickly building things, could you just quickly tell our listeners who you are and and tell our listeners who you are and and tell our listeners who you are and and really sort of what it is that you're really sort of what it is that you're really sort of what it is that you're trying to achieve with your business?

trying to achieve with your business? trying to achieve with your business? >> Sure. Um, so like my name's Ryan. >> Sure. Um, so like my name's Ryan. >> Sure. Um, so like my name's Ryan. Um, I graduated with degrees in physics Um, I graduated with degrees in physics Um, I graduated with degrees in physics and theoretical chemistry and that was and theoretical chemistry and that was and theoretical chemistry and that was uh that's a really exciting intellectual uh that's a really exciting intellectual uh that's a really exciting intellectual academic endeavor. But I've always academic endeavor. But I've always academic endeavor. But I've always wanted to be an inventor. And so once I wanted to be an inventor. And so once I wanted to be an inventor. And so once I graduated, I thought, you know, this is graduated, I thought, you know, this is graduated, I thought, you know, this is a good time in life to try to take a a good time in life to try to take a a good time in life to try to take a risk and, you know, aim for the stars. risk and, you know, aim for the stars. risk and, you know, aim for the stars. And if if I could do anything in life, And if if I could do anything in life, And if if I could do anything in life, it would be to make money in venting and it would be to make money in venting and it would be to make money in venting and to be able to feed a family, provide for to be able to feed a family, provide for to be able to feed a family, provide for myself, because what better to do? You myself, because what better to do? You myself, because what better to do? You get to do whatever you want all the get to do whatever you want all the get to do whatever you want all the time, uh, and follow your own passions, time, uh, and follow your own passions, time, uh, and follow your own passions, your own projects, and then ideally if your own projects, and then ideally if your own projects, and then ideally if you can make money from it, that's you can make money from it, that's you can make money from it, that's that's the best thing. So, what I've that's the best thing. So, what I've that's the best thing. So, what I've been doing is just exactly that, trying been doing is just exactly that, trying been doing is just exactly that, trying to develop my inventions to a point that to develop my inventions to a point that to develop my inventions to a point that someone else would pay for them and someone else would pay for them and someone else would pay for them and figure out how to sell, which has been figure out how to sell, which has been figure out how to sell, which has been the hard part for me is figuring out the hard part for me is figuring out the hard part for me is figuring out exactly how to sell an invention.

exactly how to sell an invention. exactly how to sell an invention. There's a variety of ways you can do it, There's a variety of ways you can do it, There's a variety of ways you can do it, which I'm sure we'll get into, but um which I'm sure we'll get into, but um which I'm sure we'll get into, but um that's that's been the big thing. And that's that's been the big thing. And that's that's been the big thing. And it's been a process of learning what's it's been a process of learning what's it's been a process of learning what's valuable to people, what's needed to get valuable to people, what's needed to get valuable to people, what's needed to get an invention off the ground, where are an invention off the ground, where are an invention off the ground, where are the hurdles. Each invention has its own the hurdles. Each invention has its own the hurdles. Each invention has its own hurdles. Maybe manufacturing is hurdles. Maybe manufacturing is hurdles. Maybe manufacturing is difficult for one, maybe marketing is difficult for one, maybe marketing is difficult for one, maybe marketing is difficult for a different one. And so difficult for a different one. And so difficult for a different one. And so you sort of navigate that to try to you sort of navigate that to try to you sort of navigate that to try to figure out where the money is in a given figure out where the money is in a given figure out where the money is in a given product or service or business idea. product or service or business idea. product or service or business idea. that is really it's courageous to to that is really it's courageous to to that is really it's courageous to to want to be able to take something that want to be able to take something that want to be able to take something that is an idea and turn it into a product is an idea and turn it into a product is an idea and turn it into a product and turn it into something that can help and turn it into something that can help and turn it into something that can help um to help people. That is quite a um to help people. That is quite a um to help people. That is quite a journey that you've you've been on. How journey that you've you've been on. How journey that you've you've been on. How do you feel that this um this desire to do you feel that this um this desire to do you feel that this um this desire to be you know an inventor of sorts came be you know an inventor of sorts came be you know an inventor of sorts came about as you going through through about as you going through through about as you going through through college and going through your college and going through your college and going through your education? Where do you think it kind of education? Where do you think it kind of education? Where do you think it kind of took uh to growth? Well, I've always took uh to growth? Well, I've always took uh to growth? Well, I've always I've always wanted to do inventions. I I've always wanted to do inventions. I I've always wanted to do inventions. I mean, ever since I was a kid, building mean, ever since I was a kid, building mean, ever since I was a kid, building with Legos and, you know, lashing sticks with Legos and, you know, lashing sticks with Legos and, you know, lashing sticks together in my backyard. Like, together in my backyard. Like, together in my backyard. Like, everything was thinking about I would everything was thinking about I would everything was thinking about I would just have these ideas all all the time.

just have these ideas all all the time. just have these ideas all all the time. Oh, I could make a little gizmo that Oh, I could make a little gizmo that Oh, I could make a little gizmo that does this or make a widget for that. Um, does this or make a widget for that. Um, does this or make a widget for that. Um, but I never really thought that that was but I never really thought that that was but I never really thought that that was a practical way to make a living. And a practical way to make a living. And a practical way to make a living. And so, um, I love math. I love science. And so, um, I love math. I love science. And so, um, I love math. I love science. And that's where I started going in, you that's where I started going in, you that's where I started going in, you know, my formal education. know, my formal education. know, my formal education. But there's always this like there's But there's always this like there's But there's always this like there's always this thing in the back of your always this thing in the back of your always this thing in the back of your head going in the back of my head going, head going in the back of my head going, head going in the back of my head going, okay, but does this matter to anyone? okay, but does this matter to anyone? okay, but does this matter to anyone? How do you make a difference in life? How do you make a difference in life? How do you make a difference in life? And of course, science matters a whole And of course, science matters a whole And of course, science matters a whole lot. Um, I still love science. There's lot. Um, I still love science. There's lot. Um, I still love science. There's the you know the modern world is given the you know the modern world is given the you know the modern world is given to us by science but there's a whole lot to us by science but there's a whole lot to us by science but there's a whole lot of science out there that um that no one of science out there that um that no one of science out there that um that no one will ever know about and there is a will ever know about and there is a will ever know about and there is a proliferation of you know research and proliferation of you know research and proliferation of you know research and fundamental research and new PhDs who fundamental research and new PhDs who fundamental research and new PhDs who are doing things that uh I I applaud are doing things that uh I I applaud are doing things that uh I I applaud them for it because I think it's them for it because I think it's them for it because I think it's foundational to our understanding of the foundational to our understanding of the foundational to our understanding of the world but the world will never know or world but the world will never know or world but the world will never know or it may be a hundred years or it may be it may be a hundred years or it may be it may be a hundred years or it may be such a minor drop in the bucket And I such a minor drop in the bucket And I such a minor drop in the bucket And I want someone to care that I was here, want someone to care that I was here, want someone to care that I was here, you know, I I want to be able to um you know, I I want to be able to um you know, I I want to be able to um impact people with something that I've impact people with something that I've impact people with something that I've developed. And um I think that sometimes developed. And um I think that sometimes developed. And um I think that sometimes it's easier to do that with a product or it's easier to do that with a product or it's easier to do that with a product or something that they can buy than some something that they can buy than some something that they can buy than some esoteric science that they may not esoteric science that they may not esoteric science that they may not understand or very very few people may understand or very very few people may understand or very very few people may ever read or learn about. So that sort

ever read or learn about. So that sort ever read or learn about. So that sort of spurred me. I hope that answers the of spurred me. I hope that answers the of spurred me. I hope that answers the question. I mean that sort of spurred question. I mean that sort of spurred question. I mean that sort of spurred me. me. me. >> Yeah. Yeah, >> Yeah. Yeah, >> Yeah. Yeah, >> to try something else, you know, and >> to try something else, you know, and >> to try something else, you know, and sort of take a risk, but it was a risk sort of take a risk, but it was a risk sort of take a risk, but it was a risk to hopefully um make my existence matter to hopefully um make my existence matter to hopefully um make my existence matter to a greater number of people. to a greater number of people. to a greater number of people. >> I think that's really noble. I do have >> I think that's really noble. I do have >> I think that's really noble. I do have to ask though, what was the uh what was to ask though, what was the uh what was to ask though, what was the uh what was your first invention? your first invention? your first invention? >> My very first invention that hasn't gone >> My very first invention that hasn't gone >> My very first invention that hasn't gone anywhere. Uh I started working on this anywhere. Uh I started working on this anywhere. Uh I started working on this conicle drinking straw. That's what I conicle drinking straw. That's what I conicle drinking straw. That's what I called it. It would be a drinking straw called it. It would be a drinking straw called it. It would be a drinking straw that was skinnier at one end than the that was skinnier at one end than the that was skinnier at one end than the other end. The idea was that this would other end. The idea was that this would other end. The idea was that this would sort of take the place of like those sort of take the place of like those sort of take the place of like those little coffee stir sticks and regular little coffee stir sticks and regular little coffee stir sticks and regular drinking straws. You collapse those into drinking straws. You collapse those into drinking straws. You collapse those into one product. And so if you wanted to one product. And so if you wanted to one product. And so if you wanted to stir, you would put the skinny end up. stir, you would put the skinny end up. stir, you would put the skinny end up. If you wanted to drink, you put the fat If you wanted to drink, you put the fat If you wanted to drink, you put the fat end up and get both. But um it doesn't end up and get both. But um it doesn't end up and get both. But um it doesn't make sense to produce them because it's make sense to produce them because it's make sense to produce them because it's so incredibly cheap and efficient to so incredibly cheap and efficient to so incredibly cheap and efficient to produce cylindrical straws. So I don't produce cylindrical straws. So I don't produce cylindrical straws. So I don't think that one's going to go anywhere. think that one's going to go anywhere. think that one's going to go anywhere. [snorts] [snorts] [snorts] >> Well, you never know. Um, [laughter] >> Well, you never know. Um, [laughter] >> Well, you never know. Um, [laughter] I really liked what you said, Brian, I really liked what you said, Brian, I really liked what you said, Brian, about um you wanted to make the world about um you wanted to make the world about um you wanted to make the world know about who you were and care about know about who you were and care about know about who you were and care about who you are. When we talk about the who you are. When we talk about the who you are. When we talk about the world, obviously that that's that's world, obviously that that's that's world, obviously that that's that's huge. Uh, and when we have to think huge. Uh, and when we have to think huge. Uh, and when we have to think about going to market, we have to think about going to market, we have to think about going to market, we have to think about an ideal buyer. We have to think about an ideal buyer. We have to think about an ideal buyer. We have to think about someone that we've built something about someone that we've built something about someone that we've built something for, we have a solution for that we for, we have a solution for that we for, we have a solution for that we think will resonate. uh who is your think will resonate. uh who is your think will resonate. uh who is your ideal buyer in terms of maybe not and I ideal buyer in terms of maybe not and I ideal buyer in terms of maybe not and I think it might be a broad statement to think it might be a broad statement to think it might be a broad statement to say all of your of your products and

say all of your of your products and say all of your of your products and your inventions but if we could give an your inventions but if we could give an your inventions but if we could give an example to our audience who is your example to our audience who is your example to our audience who is your ideal buyer and how did you come up with ideal buyer and how did you come up with ideal buyer and how did you come up with them? them? them? >> So that's kind of interesting because I >> So that's kind of interesting because I >> So that's kind of interesting because I could give an ideal buyer for all of my could give an ideal buyer for all of my could give an ideal buyer for all of my products and it would be an intellectual products and it would be an intellectual products and it would be an intellectual property lency. So that may sound weird. property lency. So that may sound weird. property lency. So that may sound weird. I would I didn't even think of that a I would I didn't even think of that a I would I didn't even think of that a few years ago, but my ideal buyer would few years ago, but my ideal buyer would few years ago, but my ideal buyer would be a big company who's already in the be a big company who's already in the be a big company who's already in the field of whatever I'm inventing. If it's field of whatever I'm inventing. If it's field of whatever I'm inventing. If it's if it's drinking straws, if it's uh you if it's drinking straws, if it's uh you if it's drinking straws, if it's uh you know a a line of ceramic homegoods, if know a a line of ceramic homegoods, if know a a line of ceramic homegoods, if it's a novelty joke gift, if it's a line it's a novelty joke gift, if it's a line it's a novelty joke gift, if it's a line of clothing or uh consumer electronics, of clothing or uh consumer electronics, of clothing or uh consumer electronics, any of those things, it would be a any of those things, it would be a any of those things, it would be a company that's already positioned there company that's already positioned there company that's already positioned there that wants the type of intellectual that wants the type of intellectual that wants the type of intellectual property to the inventions that I'm property to the inventions that I'm property to the inventions that I'm coming up with that would take this and coming up with that would take this and coming up with that would take this and just sort of give you a royalty um for just sort of give you a royalty um for just sort of give you a royalty um for the sales and then they would run with the sales and then they would run with the sales and then they would run with it and brand it. That would be ideal. it and brand it. That would be ideal. it and brand it. That would be ideal. So, and because that would give me the So, and because that would give me the So, and because that would give me the ability to keep working on other things.

ability to keep working on other things. ability to keep working on other things. Essentially, someone big would just come Essentially, someone big would just come Essentially, someone big would just come in and say, "Hey, this is cool. Why in and say, "Hey, this is cool. Why in and say, "Hey, this is cool. Why don't you leave this to the big boys? Go don't you leave this to the big boys? Go don't you leave this to the big boys? Go away. Here's some money for your time." away. Here's some money for your time." away. Here's some money for your time." You know, and you go do other inventing. You know, and you go do other inventing. You know, and you go do other inventing. That would be the dream. Um, that's That would be the dream. Um, that's That would be the dream. Um, that's really hard to come by. really hard to come by. really hard to come by. So do you exclusively focus on that IP So do you exclusively focus on that IP So do you exclusively focus on that IP licency or is it a case of I need to get licency or is it a case of I need to get licency or is it a case of I need to get traction with making some sales with traction with making some sales with traction with making some sales with vendors with with direct uh direct to vendors with with direct uh direct to vendors with with direct uh direct to consumer to be able to build up some consumer to be able to build up some consumer to be able to build up some noise to attract those people. noise to attract those people. noise to attract those people. >> I think it I think it's more >> I think it I think it's more >> I think it I think it's more intelligently the latter that you intelligently the latter that you intelligently the latter that you mentioned. Okay. Initially I started and mentioned. Okay. Initially I started and mentioned. Okay. Initially I started and I thought okay this is great. I'm going I thought okay this is great. I'm going I thought okay this is great. I'm going to come up with some intellectual I to come up with some intellectual I to come up with some intellectual I would call it an intellectual property would call it an intellectual property would call it an intellectual property package. Maybe I've filed a patent package. Maybe I've filed a patent package. Maybe I've filed a patent application. Maybe I've developed a logo application. Maybe I've developed a logo application. Maybe I've developed a logo and filed a copyright or a trademark and filed a copyright or a trademark and filed a copyright or a trademark application. Uh maybe I've found application. Uh maybe I've found application. Uh maybe I've found manufacturers and even gotten quotes manufacturers and even gotten quotes manufacturers and even gotten quotes from them, but never really done the leg from them, but never really done the leg from them, but never really done the leg work. Um I mean, you could call that leg work. Um I mean, you could call that leg work. Um I mean, you could call that leg work in a sense. I mean, it's a lot of work in a sense. I mean, it's a lot of work in a sense. I mean, it's a lot of research up front, but you're just going research up front, but you're just going research up front, but you're just going to take this to a company and say, to take this to a company and say, to take this to a company and say, "Look, this is you should do this thing "Look, this is you should do this thing "Look, this is you should do this thing and I've already figured out how to do and I've already figured out how to do and I've already figured out how to do it." That was the goal. And just only it." That was the goal. And just only it." That was the goal. And just only focus on those people. Well, what I focus on those people. Well, what I focus on those people. Well, what I found out was found out was found out was um a lot of those people that you want, um a lot of those people that you want, um a lot of those people that you want, these ideal lences, these ideal lences, these ideal lences, they're not just going to bite on an they're not just going to bite on an they're not just going to bite on an idea. They want to see the traction. And idea. They want to see the traction. And idea. They want to see the traction. And so I sort of started falling back to, so I sort of started falling back to, so I sort of started falling back to, okay, maybe I do have to make this okay, maybe I do have to make this okay, maybe I do have to make this myself or sell this myself, get a few

myself or sell this myself, get a few myself or sell this myself, get a few hundred or a few thousand produced or hundred or a few thousand produced or hundred or a few thousand produced or get a few hundred or a few thousand get a few hundred or a few thousand get a few hundred or a few thousand sales. And that starts to make your sales. And that starts to make your sales. And that starts to make your product look so much better. And you can product look so much better. And you can product look so much better. And you can start to say to these licences or start to say to these licences or start to say to these licences or potential licences, this has been going potential licences, this has been going potential licences, this has been going really well for me. I've been getting a really well for me. I've been getting a really well for me. I've been getting a lot of traction with product XYZ. Is it lot of traction with product XYZ. Is it lot of traction with product XYZ. Is it something you guys would like to look something you guys would like to look something you guys would like to look at? You know, at? You know, at? You know, >> can you define your total addressable >> can you define your total addressable >> can you define your total addressable market? market? market? [sighs] [sighs] [sighs] >> I [snorts] don't know. >> I [snorts] don't know. >> I [snorts] don't know. [laughter] [laughter] [laughter] >> No, I don't know. Um I I suppose >> No, I don't know. Um I I suppose >> No, I don't know. Um I I suppose somebody could and maybe this is a a somebody could and maybe this is a a somebody could and maybe this is a a point of um market research. I did this point of um market research. I did this point of um market research. I did this exercise um the beginning of last year exercise um the beginning of last year exercise um the beginning of last year where I was looking into 2024 where I was looking into 2024 where I was looking into 2024 specifically going okay what are some specifically going okay what are some specifically going okay what are some different projects I want to attack? different projects I want to attack? different projects I want to attack? What are some new products I want to What are some new products I want to What are some new products I want to develop? And what's a valuable way to develop? And what's a valuable way to develop? And what's a valuable way to prioritize my projects and and to use my prioritize my projects and and to use my prioritize my projects and and to use my time? And so I actually built this time? And so I actually built this time? And so I actually built this equation that would be too long to share equation that would be too long to share equation that would be too long to share verbally or something, but I built an verbally or something, but I built an verbally or something, but I built an equation to try to factor in the equation to try to factor in the equation to try to factor in the priority of different products and priority of different products and priority of different products and things like how difficult it would be to things like how difficult it would be to things like how difficult it would be to get them out, how much time and upfront get them out, how much time and upfront get them out, how much time and upfront money it would cost, what I thought the money it would cost, what I thought the money it would cost, what I thought the total addressable market and possible total addressable market and possible total addressable market and possible return on that is, what was the latency, return on that is, what was the latency, return on that is, what was the latency, what's the time between inception or what's the time between inception or what's the time between inception or launching the product to making some launching the product to making some launching the product to making some revenue to making some profit. and it's revenue to making some profit. and it's revenue to making some profit. and it's highly parameterized and lots of highly parameterized and lots of highly parameterized and lots of speculation.

speculation. speculation. But I I suppose that formula took But I I suppose that formula took But I I suppose that formula took something like addressable market. Um, something like addressable market. Um, something like addressable market. Um, and partly the way I looked at it there and partly the way I looked at it there and partly the way I looked at it there is by looking at similar products is by looking at similar products is by looking at similar products and you can use some of these tools to and you can use some of these tools to and you can use some of these tools to look at like Amazon products and say if look at like Amazon products and say if look at like Amazon products and say if this if you have a similar product on this if you have a similar product on this if you have a similar product on Amazon, how much is it selling per month Amazon, how much is it selling per month Amazon, how much is it selling per month or per year? And that's I understand or per year? And that's I understand or per year? And that's I understand that's not total addressable market as a that's not total addressable market as a that's not total addressable market as a technical term, but that's something technical term, but that's something technical term, but that's something like what I might call um realistic like what I might call um realistic like what I might call um realistic achievable market. I just made that up. achievable market. I just made that up. achievable market. I just made that up. But you know, you can look at some But you know, you can look at some But you know, you can look at some competitors and then not be too not be competitors and then not be too not be competitors and then not be too not be too um prideful and go down the list to too um prideful and go down the list to too um prideful and go down the list to like who's the hundth ranking person on like who's the hundth ranking person on like who's the hundth ranking person on Amazon and maybe I can get a fraction of Amazon and maybe I can get a fraction of Amazon and maybe I can get a fraction of their sales. And so is that market their sales. And so is that market their sales. And so is that market sufficient for me to think I want to sufficient for me to think I want to sufficient for me to think I want to take the risk with a given product or take the risk with a given product or take the risk with a given product or thing? thing? thing? >> I think that's absolutely fair because >> I think that's absolutely fair because >> I think that's absolutely fair because you know there and and we'll talk about you know there and and we'll talk about you know there and and we'll talk about this a little bit later on in the this a little bit later on in the this a little bit later on in the episode but uh you know it's very easy episode but uh you know it's very easy episode but uh you know it's very easy to use acronyms. It's very easy to use to use acronyms. It's very easy to use to use acronyms. It's very easy to use frameworks but the whole point of us frameworks but the whole point of us frameworks but the whole point of us wanting to get on to this episode with wanting to get on to this episode with wanting to get on to this episode with you Ryan is to hear about the reality of you Ryan is to hear about the reality of you Ryan is to hear about the reality of getting these things done. It's all well getting these things done. It's all well getting these things done. It's all well and good to talk about Tam Sam and and good to talk about Tam Sam and and good to talk about Tam Sam and anything else under the sun, but you anything else under the sun, but you anything else under the sun, but you have to be able to get your idea in have to be able to get your idea in have to be able to get your idea in front of the right people. Um, front of the right people. Um, front of the right people. Um, as you as you were kind of trying to as you as you were kind of trying to as you as you were kind of trying to figure out that as you called a figure out that as you called a figure out that as you called a sufficient addressable market, did you sufficient addressable market, did you sufficient addressable market, did you have to pivot at any point?

have to pivot at any point? have to pivot at any point? The pivoting uh absolutely the pivoting The pivoting uh absolutely the pivoting The pivoting uh absolutely the pivoting was was was coming down from this idea of oh I'm coming down from this idea of oh I'm coming down from this idea of oh I'm just going to come up with an idea and just going to come up with an idea and just going to come up with an idea and someone's going to write me a check and someone's going to write me a check and someone's going to write me a check and you know um so I I had to pivot because you know um so I I had to pivot because you know um so I I had to pivot because if you just have an idea if you think if you just have an idea if you think if you just have an idea if you think that someone's just going to pay you or that someone's just going to pay you or that someone's just going to pay you or if they are just going to pay you for an if they are just going to pay you for an if they are just going to pay you for an idea you don't need to produce the idea you don't need to produce the idea you don't need to produce the thing. Well, I wasn't having near as thing. Well, I wasn't having near as thing. Well, I wasn't having near as much luck as I hoped um licensing some much luck as I hoped um licensing some much luck as I hoped um licensing some of my early ideas and even better ideas of my early ideas and even better ideas of my early ideas and even better ideas than the drinking straw. Okay. So, but than the drinking straw. Okay. So, but than the drinking straw. Okay. So, but but I wasn't having a lot of good luck but I wasn't having a lot of good luck but I wasn't having a lot of good luck getting potential lences. And so, a big getting potential lences. And so, a big getting potential lences. And so, a big pivot was if I want to sell this thing pivot was if I want to sell this thing pivot was if I want to sell this thing wholesale or retail, now you have to get wholesale or retail, now you have to get wholesale or retail, now you have to get some produced. And if you're the some produced. And if you're the some produced. And if you're the producer, um, that's you got to take you producer, um, that's you got to take you producer, um, that's you got to take you got to bite off a big chunk now. You got got to bite off a big chunk now. You got got to bite off a big chunk now. You got to put up a ton of money up front, to put up a ton of money up front, to put up a ton of money up front, relatively speaking, a ton of money, you relatively speaking, a ton of money, you relatively speaking, a ton of money, you know, and get a few and and get the know, and get a few and and get the know, and get a few and and get the minimum order quantity from a minimum order quantity from a minimum order quantity from a manufacturer. And that may be hundreds, manufacturer. And that may be hundreds, manufacturer. And that may be hundreds, thousands, 10 thousands of units of your thousands, 10 thousands of units of your thousands, 10 thousands of units of your thing. Um, and you can mitigate that a thing. Um, and you can mitigate that a thing. Um, and you can mitigate that a little bit if you can find a retail little bit if you can find a retail little bit if you can find a retail partner who already wants your good, you partner who already wants your good, you partner who already wants your good, you know, and you could sort of know that know, and you could sort of know that know, and you could sort of know that you have a customer in line. Um, but you have a customer in line. Um, but you have a customer in line. Um, but otherwise, you have to come up with a otherwise, you have to come up with a otherwise, you have to come up with a plan to sell your thing. And uh, so then plan to sell your thing. And uh, so then plan to sell your thing. And uh, so then that was a big pivot and I thought, that was a big pivot and I thought, that was a big pivot and I thought, okay, I'll I'll just I'll buy these

okay, I'll I'll just I'll buy these okay, I'll I'll just I'll buy these things in bulk, whatever it is, and I'll things in bulk, whatever it is, and I'll things in bulk, whatever it is, and I'll sell them wholesale. Well, what happens sell them wholesale. Well, what happens sell them wholesale. Well, what happens if that doesn't work out that well? The if that doesn't work out that well? The if that doesn't work out that well? The good news is in in this, you know, good news is in in this, you know, good news is in in this, you know, century, there's a million ways to sell century, there's a million ways to sell century, there's a million ways to sell something. So, you've got retail. You something. So, you've got retail. You something. So, you've got retail. You can build your own website and go direct can build your own website and go direct can build your own website and go direct to consumer. You can use little PayPal, to consumer. You can use little PayPal, to consumer. You can use little PayPal, you know, you can build a PayPal um you know, you can build a PayPal um you know, you can build a PayPal um checkout and plug it on to any website. checkout and plug it on to any website. checkout and plug it on to any website. You can literally sell things on You can literally sell things on You can literally sell things on Facebook and, you know, Tik Tok and Facebook and, you know, Tik Tok and Facebook and, you know, Tik Tok and stuff, stuff, stuff, >> right? >> right? >> right? >> Um, and then there's eBay and Etsy. And >> Um, and then there's eBay and Etsy. And >> Um, and then there's eBay and Etsy. And so there are a million ways to sell so there are a million ways to sell so there are a million ways to sell something. And so that's been sort of something. And so that's been sort of something. And so that's been sort of the latest iteration of my pivoting I the latest iteration of my pivoting I the latest iteration of my pivoting I would say is experimenting with all would say is experimenting with all would say is experimenting with all those different avenues and looking for those different avenues and looking for those different avenues and looking for what's really going to work. what's really going to work. what's really going to work. >> Do you not find the number of options, >> Do you not find the number of options, >> Do you not find the number of options, the number of channels overwhelming? the number of channels overwhelming? the number of channels overwhelming? Like how did you go about validating Like how did you go about validating Like how did you go about validating those channels? Like I'm sure there's a those channels? Like I'm sure there's a those channels? Like I'm sure there's a very obvious answer that's about to hit very obvious answer that's about to hit very obvious answer that's about to hit us across the face, but how did you go us across the face, but how did you go us across the face, but how did you go about validating those pivots?

about validating those pivots? about validating those pivots? >> Yeah, it is overwhelming. Um, I thought >> Yeah, it is overwhelming. Um, I thought >> Yeah, it is overwhelming. Um, I thought initially, initially, initially, okay, there's, you know, 8 billion okay, there's, you know, 8 billion okay, there's, you know, 8 billion people in the world and there's like people in the world and there's like people in the world and there's like 10,000 different sales channels, so I'll 10,000 different sales channels, so I'll 10,000 different sales channels, so I'll just pick one and be really good at it. just pick one and be really good at it. just pick one and be really good at it. Good luck. So now, now I'm just trying Good luck. So now, now I'm just trying Good luck. So now, now I'm just trying everything. Um, and I don't know I don't everything. Um, and I don't know I don't everything. Um, and I don't know I don't know the answer to how you validate know the answer to how you validate know the answer to how you validate something other than just get on there something other than just get on there something other than just get on there and sell something. And so that's how and sell something. And so that's how and sell something. And so that's how I'm validating. That's how I'm I'm validating. That's how I'm I'm validating. That's how I'm attempting to validate is now my method attempting to validate is now my method attempting to validate is now my method looks like this. Put my product on as looks like this. Put my product on as looks like this. Put my product on as many platforms as I can. many platforms as I can. many platforms as I can. See where I'm getting sales and then try See where I'm getting sales and then try See where I'm getting sales and then try to double down there. And I'm just it's to double down there. And I'm just it's to double down there. And I'm just it's everything is just sales driven. I'm everything is just sales driven. I'm everything is just sales driven. I'm just looking at the numbers. You know, just looking at the numbers. You know, just looking at the numbers. You know, where's the money coming from? And like where's the money coming from? And like where's the money coming from? And like that's going to be the loudest voice. that's going to be the loudest voice. that's going to be the loudest voice. >> That's a that's a really interesting way >> That's a that's a really interesting way >> That's a that's a really interesting way to look at it. I think again it's to look at it. I think again it's to look at it. I think again it's pragmatic, right? It's it's it's all pragmatic, right? It's it's it's all pragmatic, right? It's it's it's all well and good saying here's my strategy well and good saying here's my strategy well and good saying here's my strategy and here's I'm going to go about and here's I'm going to go about and here's I'm going to go about executing it. But the where the rubber executing it. But the where the rubber executing it. But the where the rubber hits meets the road is when you actually hits meets the road is when you actually hits meets the road is when you actually make that sale when you actually get make that sale when you actually get make that sale when you actually get people to consume what it is that you people to consume what it is that you people to consume what it is that you you have created, you have created, you have created, >> right?

>> right? >> right? >> Um and I and I guess it sort of puts you >> Um and I and I guess it sort of puts you >> Um and I and I guess it sort of puts you on that that path towards, you know, on that that path towards, you know, on that that path towards, you know, from zero to to 100 in terms of your of from zero to to 100 in terms of your of from zero to to 100 in terms of your of your customers and um you know really your customers and um you know really your customers and um you know really kind of getting that that warm feeling kind of getting that that warm feeling kind of getting that that warm feeling inside of when you get that first win. inside of when you get that first win. inside of when you get that first win. >> Um >> Um >> Um >> yeah. So, how did it how are you going >> yeah. So, how did it how are you going >> yeah. So, how did it how are you going about getting your first customers? about getting your first customers? about getting your first customers? Also, you talked about loads of Also, you talked about loads of Also, you talked about loads of different channels there, but um what different channels there, but um what different channels there, but um what sort of if we could bucket it in terms sort of if we could bucket it in terms sort of if we could bucket it in terms of digital uh advertising, um cold of digital uh advertising, um cold of digital uh advertising, um cold calling, cold emailing, uh marketplaces, calling, cold emailing, uh marketplaces, calling, cold emailing, uh marketplaces, networking, what goes into going from networking, what goes into going from networking, what goes into going from zero to your first couple of customers zero to your first couple of customers zero to your first couple of customers and beyond for you? and beyond for you? and beyond for you? >> For me, my very first couple of >> For me, my very first couple of >> For me, my very first couple of customers were, you know, friends and customers were, you know, friends and customers were, you know, friends and family. I think probably not surprising, family. I think probably not surprising, family. I think probably not surprising, but that runs out really fast. There's but that runs out really fast. There's but that runs out really fast. There's this saying I heard um and it it might this saying I heard um and it it might this saying I heard um and it it might become more appropriate later, but I'm become more appropriate later, but I'm become more appropriate later, but I'm thinking of it right now. There was this thinking of it right now. There was this thinking of it right now. There was this saying I heard that says a customer will saying I heard that says a customer will saying I heard that says a customer will become your friend faster than a friend become your friend faster than a friend become your friend faster than a friend will become your customer. You know, will become your customer. You know, will become your customer. You know, your friends don't want to buy stuff your friends don't want to buy stuff your friends don't want to buy stuff from you because they're your friend.

from you because they're your friend. from you because they're your friend. They think they get everything about you They think they get everything about you They think they get everything about you for free. And so that that bucket dries for free. And so that that bucket dries for free. And so that that bucket dries up really fast in my experience. Um, up really fast in my experience. Um, up really fast in my experience. Um, >> you know, your mom might buy one of your >> you know, your mom might buy one of your >> you know, your mom might buy one of your t-shirts and like show support, but t-shirts and like show support, but t-shirts and like show support, but >> You mean You mean your mom's not >> You mean You mean your mom's not >> You mean You mean your mom's not supporting every single invention and supporting every single invention and supporting every single invention and buying tens of thousands of units? I buying tens of thousands of units? I buying tens of thousands of units? I mean, mean, mean, >> Right. [laughter] Right. She's not buy >> Right. [laughter] Right. She's not buy >> Right. [laughter] Right. She's not buy Yeah, she's not buying the tens of Yeah, she's not buying the tens of Yeah, she's not buying the tens of thousands of units. Um, thousands of units. Um, thousands of units. Um, >> and and then you also have this guilt >> and and then you also have this guilt >> and and then you also have this guilt thing where like you feel like you're thing where like you feel like you're thing where like you feel like you're supposed to give your friends and supposed to give your friends and supposed to give your friends and family, you know, a sample of your new family, you know, a sample of your new family, you know, a sample of your new cool thing. And so, you know, something cool thing. And so, you know, something cool thing. And so, you know, something that is I think it was definitely that is I think it was definitely that is I think it was definitely overlooked by me. I think it was Pride overlooked by me. I think it was Pride overlooked by me. I think it was Pride initially that kept me away from like initially that kept me away from like initially that kept me away from like in-person events, farmers and makers in-person events, farmers and makers in-person events, farmers and makers markets. Um, every every town has a markets. Um, every every town has a markets. Um, every every town has a little farmers market that meets early little farmers market that meets early little farmers market that meets early Saturday morning and a lot of those are Saturday morning and a lot of those are Saturday morning and a lot of those are doing they're adding like a maker doing they're adding like a maker doing they're adding like a maker component. And I'm a little bit component. And I'm a little bit component. And I'm a little bit different from that in the sense of I'm different from that in the sense of I'm different from that in the sense of I'm producing these like manufactured goods producing these like manufactured goods producing these like manufactured goods that are um not like oneoff highly that are um not like oneoff highly that are um not like oneoff highly artezal, you know, but um but that's a artezal, you know, but um but that's a artezal, you know, but um but that's a great way to actually get some customers great way to actually get some customers great way to actually get some customers because people are walking around because people are walking around because people are walking around looking to kill time, find something to looking to kill time, find something to looking to kill time, find something to buy and talk to somebody local. So, I I buy and talk to somebody local. So, I I buy and talk to somebody local. So, I I really overlooked that um initially and really overlooked that um initially and really overlooked that um initially and I think that's a fantastic way to get a I think that's a fantastic way to get a I think that's a fantastic way to get a dozen customers or a couple hundred dozen customers or a couple hundred dozen customers or a couple hundred customers participating in local pop-up

customers participating in local pop-up customers participating in local pop-up shops. It's a total pain in the butt to shops. It's a total pain in the butt to shops. It's a total pain in the butt to do to lug all your craft and go set it do to lug all your craft and go set it do to lug all your craft and go set it up. Um up. Um up. Um >> how did you land on that? How did you >> how did you land on that? How did you >> how did you land on that? How did you Was it just a light bulb moment that you Was it just a light bulb moment that you Was it just a light bulb moment that you realized, oh, I should be going to a realized, oh, I should be going to a realized, oh, I should be going to a local farmers market? local farmers market? local farmers market? No, it was it was I got beat down over No, it was it was I got beat down over No, it was it was I got beat down over time. time. time. >> Okay. [laughter] >> Okay. [laughter] >> Okay. [laughter] >> So, you know, you you hear about these >> So, you know, you you hear about these >> So, you know, you you hear about these things, you know, around. You hear your things, you know, around. You hear your things, you know, around. You hear your friends are going to the farmers market. friends are going to the farmers market. friends are going to the farmers market. You get an ad for, oh, you can apply to You get an ad for, oh, you can apply to You get an ad for, oh, you can apply to the farmers market or whatever. And I the farmers market or whatever. And I the farmers market or whatever. And I avoided them. So, I knew these things avoided them. So, I knew these things avoided them. So, I knew these things were around and I avoided them for a were around and I avoided them for a were around and I avoided them for a long time because I thought, ah, that's long time because I thought, ah, that's long time because I thought, ah, that's just those are crafty or those are, you just those are crafty or those are, you just those are crafty or those are, you know, I don't need to do that. I'll just know, I don't need to do that. I'll just know, I don't need to do that. I'll just have a company pay me, you know, have a company pay me, you know, have a company pay me, you know, millions of dollars for my ideas. No, millions of dollars for my ideas. No, millions of dollars for my ideas. No, you won't. And so, it's like finally got you won't. And so, it's like finally got you won't. And so, it's like finally got to a point where I go, let's see if I to a point where I go, let's see if I to a point where I go, let's see if I can get one person to pay me for my can get one person to pay me for my can get one person to pay me for my ideas. Let's see if if I can get 10 ideas. Let's see if if I can get 10 ideas. Let's see if if I can get 10 people to actually do this, or let's see people to actually do this, or let's see people to actually do this, or let's see if I can get real people to tell me why if I can get real people to tell me why if I can get real people to tell me why this is a horrible idea, which would be this is a horrible idea, which would be this is a horrible idea, which would be equally valuable. You know, let's see if equally valuable. You know, let's see if equally valuable. You know, let's see if I can go talk to real people and get I can go talk to real people and get I can go talk to real people and get them to say, I'm not going to buy that.

them to say, I'm not going to buy that. them to say, I'm not going to buy that. and explain why, and explain why, and explain why, >> right? >> right? >> right? >> Yeah. So, so that was a big one is >> Yeah. So, so that was a big one is >> Yeah. So, so that was a big one is getting out in front of in front of real getting out in front of in front of real getting out in front of in front of real people. people. people. >> Yeah. One of the things that gets >> Yeah. One of the things that gets >> Yeah. One of the things that gets overlooked a lot uh for for founders overlooked a lot uh for for founders overlooked a lot uh for for founders really is is getting in front of like really is is getting in front of like really is is getting in front of like you said the buyer. And obviously in you said the buyer. And obviously in you said the buyer. And obviously in your instance, Ryan, it's it's a case of your instance, Ryan, it's it's a case of your instance, Ryan, it's it's a case of just you need to get in front of any just you need to get in front of any just you need to get in front of any sort of buyer. For others, if they'd sort of buyer. For others, if they'd sort of buyer. For others, if they'd have their ICP um tightly defined, then have their ICP um tightly defined, then have their ICP um tightly defined, then it may be a case of you get onto a it may be a case of you get onto a it may be a case of you get onto a discovery call and if someone gives you discovery call and if someone gives you discovery call and if someone gives you good feedback or bad feedback, it's good feedback or bad feedback, it's good feedback or bad feedback, it's really important to actually ask why. really important to actually ask why. really important to actually ask why. It's not enough to be like, oh, you It's not enough to be like, oh, you It's not enough to be like, oh, you know, Ryan said that this solution that know, Ryan said that this solution that know, Ryan said that this solution that I developed is great. Okay, but why? Or I developed is great. Okay, but why? Or I developed is great. Okay, but why? Or he said he wasn't really interested he said he wasn't really interested he said he wasn't really interested right now. Why? Should always be asking right now. Why? Should always be asking right now. Why? Should always be asking why. With that sort of mentality, why. With that sort of mentality, why. With that sort of mentality, is there anything that someone's ever is there anything that someone's ever is there anything that someone's ever said to you in terms of feedback, good said to you in terms of feedback, good said to you in terms of feedback, good or bad, that has made you think, "Yeah, or bad, that has made you think, "Yeah, or bad, that has made you think, "Yeah, great. I'm going to take that on board great. I'm going to take that on board great. I'm going to take that on board and I'm going to make a significant and I'm going to make a significant and I'm going to make a significant change to whatever it is that's going on change to whatever it is that's going on change to whatever it is that's going on in terms of my go to market." A pseudo in terms of my go to market." A pseudo in terms of my go to market." A pseudo mentor of mine, uh, who had a long mentor of mine, uh, who had a long mentor of mine, uh, who had a long successful career in sales, we were successful career in sales, we were successful career in sales, we were talking about this and he goes, "Yeah, talking about this and he goes, "Yeah, talking about this and he goes, "Yeah, there's no substitute for blowing your there's no substitute for blowing your there's no substitute for blowing your hot stinking breath in their face." And hot stinking breath in their face." And hot stinking breath in their face." And [laughter] it's just to me it was this [laughter] it's just to me it was this [laughter] it's just to me it was this sort of like blunt and and crude wakeup sort of like blunt and and crude wakeup sort of like blunt and and crude wakeup of sales are still done face to face. Um of sales are still done face to face. Um of sales are still done face to face. Um you know when we're recording this we're you know when we're recording this we're you know when we're recording this we're on a sort of a Zoom uh you know call.

on a sort of a Zoom uh you know call. on a sort of a Zoom uh you know call. We're still going face to face. And We're still going face to face. And We're still going face to face. And >> in my experience that's where the >> in my experience that's where the >> in my experience that's where the majority of my business has taken place. majority of my business has taken place. majority of my business has taken place. Yes, I'm online, but my biggest paying Yes, I'm online, but my biggest paying Yes, I'm online, but my biggest paying customers have been people that even if customers have been people that even if customers have been people that even if they placed their order online, I met they placed their order online, I met they placed their order online, I met them in person or I followed up with Jim them in person or I followed up with Jim them in person or I followed up with Jim in person or over Zoom or there's a lot in person or over Zoom or there's a lot in person or over Zoom or there's a lot of this face to face. I wish it was of this face to face. I wish it was of this face to face. I wish it was simpler. I wish you just put a website simpler. I wish you just put a website simpler. I wish you just put a website out there with a link that says buy now out there with a link that says buy now out there with a link that says buy now and you just got people dumping money in and you just got people dumping money in and you just got people dumping money in your lap [laughter] and but that's never your lap [laughter] and but that's never your lap [laughter] and but that's never happened so far for me. it's it's still happened so far for me. it's it's still happened so far for me. it's it's still come back to come back to come back to face to face blow your hot stinking face to face blow your hot stinking face to face blow your hot stinking breath in their face, you know, breath in their face, you know, breath in their face, you know, [laughter] and and and that's also how [laughter] and and and that's also how [laughter] and and and that's also how you can figure out it's really easy to you can figure out it's really easy to you can figure out it's really easy to ignore an email. Um and it's much harder ignore an email. Um and it's much harder ignore an email. Um and it's much harder to ignore you if you're standing face to to ignore you if you're standing face to to ignore you if you're standing face to face. If I send you an email and say face. If I send you an email and say face. If I send you an email and say what what was bad about my proposal, what what was bad about my proposal, what what was bad about my proposal, >> it's really easy for you just to ignore >> it's really easy for you just to ignore >> it's really easy for you just to ignore that email and never respond. But if that email and never respond. But if that email and never respond. But if we're standing face to face, you're we're standing face to face, you're we're standing face to face, you're going to make it really awkward if you going to make it really awkward if you going to make it really awkward if you try not to respond to me. So the I think try not to respond to me. So the I think try not to respond to me. So the I think that the advice back to your question that the advice back to your question that the advice back to your question the advice is like getting out in front the advice is like getting out in front the advice is like getting out in front of people and and really doing the face of people and and really doing the face of people and and really doing the face toface work taking sales as a I'm sort toface work taking sales as a I'm sort toface work taking sales as a I'm sort of of of >> transitioning to thinking more maybe >> transitioning to thinking more maybe >> transitioning to thinking more maybe old-fashioned if you want to call it old-fashioned if you want to call it old-fashioned if you want to call it with sales being a personto person sort with sales being a personto person sort with sales being a personto person sort of doortodoor handtohand of doortodoor handtohand of doortodoor handtohand >> uh activity. Today's episode is brought >> uh activity. Today's episode is brought >> uh activity. Today's episode is brought to you by Hunter Messaging Madness, the

to you by Hunter Messaging Madness, the to you by Hunter Messaging Madness, the email writing tournament that pits 64 email writing tournament that pits 64 email writing tournament that pits 64 user emails head-to-head until one user emails head-to-head until one user emails head-to-head until one remains as the winner of $1,000 and the remains as the winner of $1,000 and the remains as the winner of $1,000 and the Messaging Madness Championship. Think Messaging Madness Championship. Think Messaging Madness Championship. Think you can write a $1,000 outreach email? you can write a $1,000 outreach email? you can write a $1,000 outreach email? Submit your entry today at Submit your entry today at Submit your entry today at www.hunter.io/meagsing-madness. So before I ask you a question that's So before I ask you a question that's related to what you just said there related to what you just said there related to what you just said there about sort of classical traditional about sort of classical traditional about sort of classical traditional sales, um if you could use one word to sales, um if you could use one word to sales, um if you could use one word to describe how it felt when you won your describe how it felt when you won your describe how it felt when you won your first customer, when you won that first first customer, when you won that first first customer, when you won that first customer, how did it feel? customer, how did it feel? customer, how did it feel? >> Okay, this is a lazy word. It was >> Okay, this is a lazy word. It was >> Okay, this is a lazy word. It was exciting. exciting. exciting. Let me maybe try to come up with some Let me maybe try to come up with some Let me maybe try to come up with some better words for it. better words for it. better words for it. >> It was a proof of concept. >> It was a proof of concept. >> It was a proof of concept. you know, it [clears throat] was you know, it [clears throat] was you know, it [clears throat] was something that it was a signal to me something that it was a signal to me something that it was a signal to me that said, "Hey, you can actually do that said, "Hey, you can actually do that said, "Hey, you can actually do this." I I had developed um after after this." I I had developed um after after this." I I had developed um after after graduating, after finishing uh my PhD, graduating, after finishing uh my PhD, graduating, after finishing uh my PhD, my first customer was actually the my first customer was actually the my first customer was actually the university I graduated from and I had university I graduated from and I had university I graduated from and I had produced this u science educational produced this u science educational produced this u science educational teaching tool and they purchased the kit teaching tool and they purchased the kit teaching tool and they purchased the kit from me. And so that was pretty cool to from me. And so that was pretty cool to from me. And so that was pretty cool to graduate and then come back selling to graduate and then come back selling to graduate and then come back selling to them something that was going to them something that was going to them something that was going to influence future batches of students.

influence future batches of students. influence future batches of students. [snorts] And it it was it was to me it [snorts] And it it was it was to me it [snorts] And it it was it was to me it was a lot of proof that okay I've been was a lot of proof that okay I've been was a lot of proof that okay I've been developing this product for over a year developing this product for over a year developing this product for over a year and had precisely zero revenue and then and had precisely zero revenue and then and had precisely zero revenue and then hey there's actually something here that hey there's actually something here that hey there's actually something here that people will pay for. So I don't know people will pay for. So I don't know people will pay for. So I don't know maybe the maybe the one word is proof or maybe the maybe the one word is proof or maybe the maybe the one word is proof or something. something. something. I mean, it just sounds like you you felt I mean, it just sounds like you you felt I mean, it just sounds like you you felt satisfaction from this. You you're using satisfaction from this. You you're using satisfaction from this. You you're using a lot of um terminology there that I a lot of um terminology there that I a lot of um terminology there that I would probably associate with a would probably associate with a would probably associate with a particular sort of role. And I love particular sort of role. And I love particular sort of role. And I love getting to ask our guests this. Would getting to ask our guests this. Would getting to ask our guests this. Would you consider yourself a salesperson? you consider yourself a salesperson? you consider yourself a salesperson? [sighs] [sighs] [sighs] >> I didn't initially, >> I didn't initially, >> I didn't initially, but yes, now I absolutely would. Like I but yes, now I absolutely would. Like I but yes, now I absolutely would. Like I said, my initial idea was I'm just going said, my initial idea was I'm just going said, my initial idea was I'm just going to license these things. And I didn't to license these things. And I didn't to license these things. And I didn't think I needed to much be a salesman think I needed to much be a salesman think I needed to much be a salesman like maybe convince somebody a little like maybe convince somebody a little like maybe convince somebody a little bit to pay me millions of dollars for bit to pay me millions of dollars for bit to pay me millions of dollars for ideas. But now I absolutely consider ideas. But now I absolutely consider ideas. But now I absolutely consider myself a salesperson. And it's become myself a salesperson. And it's become myself a salesperson. And it's become the case that as I focus more and more the case that as I focus more and more the case that as I focus more and more on wholesale, direct to consumer, and on wholesale, direct to consumer, and on wholesale, direct to consumer, and other types of sales avenues, even if other types of sales avenues, even if other types of sales avenues, even if it's putting something on, you know, it's putting something on, you know, it's putting something on, you know, Etsy or Amazon, you are still crafting Etsy or Amazon, you are still crafting Etsy or Amazon, you are still crafting the listing and the images and the text.

the listing and the images and the text. the listing and the images and the text. So now, yeah, sales takes up, So now, yeah, sales takes up, So now, yeah, sales takes up, >> I don't know, 80% of my thoughts in the >> I don't know, 80% of my thoughts in the >> I don't know, 80% of my thoughts in the week, you know. week, you know. week, you know. >> That's so interesting to me. So, we've >> That's so interesting to me. So, we've >> That's so interesting to me. So, we've had quite a few guests who have that had quite a few guests who have that had quite a few guests who have that same reaction, and I love hearing their same reaction, and I love hearing their same reaction, and I love hearing their their answer to this, but what is it their answer to this, but what is it their answer to this, but what is it about the term salesperson that kind of about the term salesperson that kind of about the term salesperson that kind of turns you off? It's this whole ah I'm turns you off? It's this whole ah I'm turns you off? It's this whole ah I'm going to have to spend money for going to have to spend money for going to have to spend money for something I don't want. Ah, this guy's something I don't want. Ah, this guy's something I don't want. Ah, this guy's going to pressure me into I'm gonna have going to pressure me into I'm gonna have going to pressure me into I'm gonna have to now I'm gonna have to buy something. to now I'm gonna have to buy something. to now I'm gonna have to buy something. Oh, he's just gonna take up time. Oh, Oh, he's just gonna take up time. Oh, Oh, he's just gonna take up time. Oh, they're sleazy. This car is a lemon. they're sleazy. This car is a lemon. they're sleazy. This car is a lemon. Um, I think we have this mentality that Um, I think we have this mentality that Um, I think we have this mentality that like when somebody's selling you like when somebody's selling you like when somebody's selling you something, you just something, you just something, you just intrinsically can't trust them. That intrinsically can't trust them. That intrinsically can't trust them. That because someone wants to sell you because someone wants to sell you because someone wants to sell you something, they're untrustworthy. You something, they're untrustworthy. You something, they're untrustworthy. You know, I think there's that kind of know, I think there's that kind of know, I think there's that kind of mentality and I think it's sort of uh mentality and I think it's sort of uh mentality and I think it's sort of uh from a variety of factors. I wish it from a variety of factors. I wish it from a variety of factors. I wish it wasn't, but I think that's partly why I wasn't, but I think that's partly why I wasn't, but I think that's partly why I am sort of hesitant to admit that I do am sort of hesitant to admit that I do am sort of hesitant to admit that I do so much sales. if you kind of got over so much sales. if you kind of got over so much sales. if you kind of got over that mental hurdle, Brian, with uh that mental hurdle, Brian, with uh that mental hurdle, Brian, with uh seeing yourself really as as as doing seeing yourself really as as as doing seeing yourself really as as as doing sales. I like to play the word sales. I like to play the word sales. I like to play the word translation game. So, I'm going to shoot translation game. So, I'm going to shoot translation game. So, I'm going to shoot out some some words that we would out some some words that we would out some some words that we would typically use uh within our industry.

typically use uh within our industry. typically use uh within our industry. And I think that they don't do a good And I think that they don't do a good And I think that they don't do a good job at perhaps translating the reality job at perhaps translating the reality job at perhaps translating the reality of what other people may call these of what other people may call these of what other people may call these things. So, if I say one word, I would things. So, if I say one word, I would things. So, if I say one word, I would love to hear what you would translate love to hear what you would translate love to hear what you would translate that to. that to. that to. >> Okay. >> Okay. >> Okay. >> Sound good? >> Sound good? >> Sound good? >> Sure. >> Sure. >> Sure. >> All right. Cold email, >> All right. Cold email, >> All right. Cold email, >> crafting, >> crafting, >> crafting, >> list building, >> list building, >> list building, >> website scraping, >> website scraping, >> website scraping, >> finding leads, >> finding leads, >> finding leads, >> googling, reading websites, >> googling, reading websites, >> googling, reading websites, >> ideal customer profile, >> ideal customer profile, >> ideal customer profile, >> any paying customer, >> any paying customer, >> any paying customer, >> buy a persona. No clue. [snorts] No clue. [snorts] [laughter] [laughter] [laughter] >> That was fun. How what's what's my >> That was fun. How what's what's my >> That was fun. How what's what's my score? Did I Did I get it? score? Did I Did I get it? score? Did I Did I get it? >> Oh, you you got a a perfect score. >> Oh, you you got a a perfect score. >> Oh, you you got a a perfect score. >> Awesome. >> Awesome. >> Awesome. >> Even for the I don't know about buy >> Even for the I don't know about buy >> Even for the I don't know about buy persona. [laughter] persona. [laughter] persona. [laughter] >> Well, you know, if I can comment on >> Well, you know, if I can comment on >> Well, you know, if I can comment on those. It's sort of those. It's sort of those. It's sort of >> the the buyer thing. I mean, I've seen >> the the buyer thing. I mean, I've seen >> the the buyer thing. I mean, I've seen the um I've been through these little the um I've been through these little the um I've been through these little sort of pseudo business accelerator sort of pseudo business accelerator sort of pseudo business accelerator workshop, you know, we're going to build workshop, you know, we're going to build workshop, you know, we're going to build your ideal customer profile, your buyer your ideal customer profile, your buyer your ideal customer profile, your buyer persona. Um, but something that was a persona. Um, but something that was a persona. Um, but something that was a harsh reality for me after attending a harsh reality for me after attending a harsh reality for me after attending a few of those sorts of workshops was I've few of those sorts of workshops was I've few of those sorts of workshops was I've sort of developed I don't know if it's a sort of developed I don't know if it's a sort of developed I don't know if it's a different view and different view and different view and but it's that your customer tells you but it's that your customer tells you but it's that your customer tells you who they are. Um, now this might I I who they are. Um, now this might I I who they are. Um, now this might I I might preface this by saying like maybe

might preface this by saying like maybe might preface this by saying like maybe it's different. I believe it's different it's different. I believe it's different it's different. I believe it's different for every product. And in that sentence, for every product. And in that sentence, for every product. And in that sentence, I'm using product very broadly to mean I'm using product very broadly to mean I'm using product very broadly to mean tangible product, hard good. Um, it's tangible product, hard good. Um, it's tangible product, hard good. Um, it's probably different for consumables like probably different for consumables like probably different for consumables like foods and and candies and stuff. is foods and and candies and stuff. is foods and and candies and stuff. is probably different for services where um probably different for services where um probably different for services where um it's not a tangible item but you know it's not a tangible item but you know it's not a tangible item but you know maybe it's software that a person's maybe it's software that a person's maybe it's software that a person's buying different for something where buying different for something where buying different for something where somebody's paying you on an ongoing somebody's paying you on an ongoing somebody's paying you on an ongoing basis they need to pay you on retainer basis they need to pay you on retainer basis they need to pay you on retainer so I imagine this is different for all so I imagine this is different for all so I imagine this is different for all of those categories of those categories of those categories but in my experience I'm developing but in my experience I'm developing but in my experience I'm developing tangible goods that's just my ideas most tangible goods that's just my ideas most tangible goods that's just my ideas most almost all my ideas are a product that almost all my ideas are a product that almost all my ideas are a product that you would hold and use in your life and you would hold and use in your life and you would hold and use in your life and in those cases is I can write down who I in those cases is I can write down who I in those cases is I can write down who I think would buy this thing. Okay? So, think would buy this thing. Okay? So, think would buy this thing. Okay? So, I'm making a t-shirt brand and I can I'm making a t-shirt brand and I can I'm making a t-shirt brand and I can tell you who I think would be interested tell you who I think would be interested tell you who I think would be interested in these t-shirts cuz I don't think that in these t-shirts cuz I don't think that in these t-shirts cuz I don't think that it's particularly old people. I don't it's particularly old people. I don't it's particularly old people. I don't think they're particularly trendy prints think they're particularly trendy prints think they're particularly trendy prints that Gen Z might be interested in, but I that Gen Z might be interested in, but I that Gen Z might be interested in, but I don't really know until I get those don't really know until I get those don't really know until I get those sales. And I might be horribly wrong.

sales. And I might be horribly wrong. sales. And I might be horribly wrong. And so my idea is more about producing And so my idea is more about producing And so my idea is more about producing the item, getting it out to as broad of the item, getting it out to as broad of the item, getting it out to as broad of an audience as I can, and then letting an audience as I can, and then letting an audience as I can, and then letting the sales tell me who my customer is, the sales tell me who my customer is, the sales tell me who my customer is, you know, and then focusing down on that you know, and then focusing down on that you know, and then focusing down on that and going, "Okay, let me cater to this and going, "Okay, let me cater to this and going, "Okay, let me cater to this audience." or if I'm not getting the audience." or if I'm not getting the audience." or if I'm not getting the audience that I for some reason really audience that I for some reason really audience that I for some reason really think that I need, can I retroactively, think that I need, can I retroactively, think that I need, can I retroactively, retrospectively, retrospectively, retrospectively, look at my product and figure out, was I look at my product and figure out, was I look at my product and figure out, was I positioning it wrong? Do I need to positioning it wrong? Do I need to positioning it wrong? Do I need to update something about the branding? Do update something about the branding? Do update something about the branding? Do I need to add features if I want to move I need to add features if I want to move I need to add features if I want to move to a different customer or audience or to a different customer or audience or to a different customer or audience or whatever? whatever? whatever? >> I'm going to be the devil's advocate >> I'm going to be the devil's advocate >> I'm going to be the devil's advocate here. Not that he needs one. Surely in here. Not that he needs one. Surely in here. Not that he needs one. Surely in what you've just said there, you must what you've just said there, you must what you've just said there, you must have had someone in mind when you were have had someone in mind when you were have had someone in mind when you were coming up with this idea. Like this idea coming up with this idea. Like this idea coming up with this idea. Like this idea could be valuable because of I can could be valuable because of I can could be valuable because of I can imagine this sort of person may use it. imagine this sort of person may use it. imagine this sort of person may use it. I can understand when you're when you're I can understand when you're when you're I can understand when you're when you're just trying to get traction. It's like, just trying to get traction. It's like, just trying to get traction. It's like, hey, anyone that that can put dollars hey, anyone that that can put dollars hey, anyone that that can put dollars into my bank account, you know, that's into my bank account, you know, that's into my bank account, you know, that's the way to go. We need to figure out the way to go. We need to figure out the way to go. We need to figure out then after the fact, who is that person then after the fact, who is that person then after the fact, who is that person that's, you know, quite prevalent in our that's, you know, quite prevalent in our that's, you know, quite prevalent in our in our demographics of of our purchases?

in our demographics of of our purchases? in our demographics of of our purchases? But surely when you're when you're But surely when you're when you're But surely when you're when you're coming up with these ideas, there has to coming up with these ideas, there has to coming up with these ideas, there has to be someone in mind. be someone in mind. be someone in mind. >> Yeah. [clears throat] I I couldn't I >> Yeah. [clears throat] I I couldn't I >> Yeah. [clears throat] I I couldn't I couldn't deny that. I mean, let's think couldn't deny that. I mean, let's think couldn't deny that. I mean, let's think of let's say you have um and I'm toying of let's say you have um and I'm toying of let's say you have um and I'm toying with this pet invention right now. Okay. with this pet invention right now. Okay. with this pet invention right now. Okay. And it's it's going to be this the And it's it's going to be this the And it's it's going to be this the world's best litter box. All right. Um world's best litter box. All right. Um world's best litter box. All right. Um so it's probably not going to be for dog so it's probably not going to be for dog so it's probably not going to be for dog owners, you know. And so yeah, we could owners, you know. And so yeah, we could owners, you know. And so yeah, we could we could drop it down. We could say um we could drop it down. We could say um we could drop it down. We could say um it's definitely for cat owners, maybe it's definitely for cat owners, maybe it's definitely for cat owners, maybe the occasional, you know, poty pig the occasional, you know, poty pig the occasional, you know, poty pig owner. uh if they're litter box training owner. uh if they're litter box training owner. uh if they're litter box training their pigs. But but I really don't know their pigs. But but I really don't know their pigs. But but I really don't know about those. It's so it's probably cat about those. It's so it's probably cat about those. It's so it's probably cat owners and but now you've dropped your owners and but now you've dropped your owners and but now you've dropped your whole audience from the world to pet whole audience from the world to pet whole audience from the world to pet owners and from pet owners down to cat owners and from pet owners down to cat owners and from pet owners down to cat pet owners and then from cat owners to pet owners and then from cat owners to pet owners and then from cat owners to specifically indoor cat owners. H. specifically indoor cat owners. H. specifically indoor cat owners. H. >> So, yeah. I mean, I guess we could play >> So, yeah. I mean, I guess we could play >> So, yeah. I mean, I guess we could play those games and you could get down to um those games and you could get down to um those games and you could get down to um and then within that you could try to and then within that you could try to and then within that you could try to think is this going to be an older think is this going to be an older think is this going to be an older person or a younger person? Is it person or a younger person? Is it person or a younger person? Is it electronics? And there's really fancy electronics? And there's really fancy electronics? And there's really fancy litter boxes these days, you know, that litter boxes these days, you know, that litter boxes these days, you know, that um have all these cool features, um have all these cool features, um have all these cool features, Bluetooth accessibility and all this Bluetooth accessibility and all this Bluetooth accessibility and all this stuff. And with those, you might think, stuff. And with those, you might think, stuff. And with those, you might think, okay, well, an older person's not going okay, well, an older person's not going okay, well, an older person's not going to use this because they don't want to to use this because they don't want to to use this because they don't want to get all techy with a litter box. Um, and get all techy with a litter box. Um, and get all techy with a litter box. Um, and not to not to put the conversation down not to not to put the conversation down not to not to put the conversation down such a stinky trajectory, but um, you such a stinky trajectory, but um, you such a stinky trajectory, but um, you know, here's my point with with once you know, here's my point with with once you know, here's my point with with once you realize that you are targeting, okay, realize that you are targeting, okay, realize that you are targeting, okay, cat owners and indoor cat owners

cat owners and indoor cat owners cat owners and indoor cat owners >> within that, I think you really don't >> within that, I think you really don't >> within that, I think you really don't know until you sell them. Maybe I think, know until you sell them. Maybe I think, know until you sell them. Maybe I think, hey, this is going to be great for hey, this is going to be great for hey, this is going to be great for apartment owners who have, you know, a apartment owners who have, you know, a apartment owners who have, you know, a confined space, but maybe they're not confined space, but maybe they're not confined space, but maybe they're not who actually um latches on to it for for who actually um latches on to it for for who actually um latches on to it for for my clothing brand. I thought um this is my clothing brand. I thought um this is my clothing brand. I thought um this is going to be really popular with college going to be really popular with college going to be really popular with college kids. Okay. And I so I had dropped it kids. Okay. And I so I had dropped it kids. Okay. And I so I had dropped it down from, you know, all people to down from, you know, all people to down from, you know, all people to people who like to wear t-shirts. So, people who like to wear t-shirts. So, people who like to wear t-shirts. So, it's a casual brand. Um, and then I it's a casual brand. Um, and then I it's a casual brand. Um, and then I thought within that it's going to be a thought within that it's going to be a thought within that it's going to be a specific type of college. I thought the specific type of college. I thought the specific type of college. I thought the fraternity, the Greek um, segment. fraternity, the Greek um, segment. fraternity, the Greek um, segment. >> And I don't know if I've gotten a single >> And I don't know if I've gotten a single >> And I don't know if I've gotten a single one of those customers, you know, and it one of those customers, you know, and it one of those customers, you know, and it turned out to be uh, a very different turned out to be uh, a very different turned out to be uh, a very different uh, person than I anticipated was my uh, person than I anticipated was my uh, person than I anticipated was my customer. customer. customer. >> And that's absolutely okay, right? Like >> And that's absolutely okay, right? Like >> And that's absolutely okay, right? Like that's just part of the experience of that's just part of the experience of that's just part of the experience of going through growing a business and and going through growing a business and and going through growing a business and and trying to get your product into the trying to get your product into the trying to get your product into the hands of someone, right? Yeah, I think hands of someone, right? Yeah, I think hands of someone, right? Yeah, I think if you and again this is back to I think if you and again this is back to I think if you and again this is back to I think every product is probably different and every product is probably different and every product is probably different and so I think there's probably some so I think there's probably some so I think there's probably some specifically services. It just crosses specifically services. It just crosses specifically services. It just crosses my mind as maybe you're able to pick my mind as maybe you're able to pick my mind as maybe you're able to pick more like if you've developed a cool more like if you've developed a cool more like if you've developed a cool software, you know, that does something, software, you know, that does something, software, you know, that does something, maybe it's much easier to target, but maybe it's much easier to target, but maybe it's much easier to target, but maybe I'm wrong. Um, but I I think it maybe I'm wrong. Um, but I I think it maybe I'm wrong. Um, but I I think it might be easier to say, okay, all these might be easier to say, okay, all these might be easier to say, okay, all these people are never going to get any use people are never going to get any use people are never going to get any use out of it. Where if it's something out of it. Where if it's something out of it. Where if it's something really broad like developing a clothing

really broad like developing a clothing really broad like developing a clothing brand, there's all kinds of people who brand, there's all kinds of people who brand, there's all kinds of people who wear clothes. In fact, there's very few wear clothes. In fact, there's very few wear clothes. In fact, there's very few people who don't. So, you know, you may people who don't. So, you know, you may people who don't. So, you know, you may not know who's going to pick up your not know who's going to pick up your not know who's going to pick up your t-shirt, but if you're developing a t-shirt, but if you're developing a t-shirt, but if you're developing a super fancy software to analyze a super fancy software to analyze a super fancy software to analyze a specific type of data, maybe you can specific type of data, maybe you can specific type of data, maybe you can hone in much more closely on on your hone in much more closely on on your hone in much more closely on on your target audience. target audience. target audience. >> So, Ryan, you're talking a lot about >> So, Ryan, you're talking a lot about >> So, Ryan, you're talking a lot about technology there and being more specific technology there and being more specific technology there and being more specific with who you're targeting and obviously with who you're targeting and obviously with who you're targeting and obviously there's an element of that that you're there's an element of that that you're there's an element of that that you're having to go through with your different having to go through with your different having to go through with your different products. Um, I want to address the products. Um, I want to address the products. Um, I want to address the elephant in the room. I think everyone elephant in the room. I think everyone elephant in the room. I think everyone has an opinion on this, but it's always has an opinion on this, but it's always has an opinion on this, but it's always good to hear more opinions because we good to hear more opinions because we good to hear more opinions because we can help refine our own. How do you feel can help refine our own. How do you feel can help refine our own. How do you feel about using AI in your outreach? about using AI in your outreach? about using AI in your outreach? >> I feel great about it. Um I I don't use >> I feel great about it. Um I I don't use >> I feel great about it. Um I I don't use AI maybe as much as I could. Um I think AI maybe as much as I could. Um I think AI maybe as much as I could. Um I think people are always coming up with very people are always coming up with very people are always coming up with very creative ways to apply this stuff, but I creative ways to apply this stuff, but I creative ways to apply this stuff, but I don't have any problem with it. Um I did don't have any problem with it. Um I did don't have any problem with it. Um I did some I did a little exercise the other some I did a little exercise the other some I did a little exercise the other day and I was coming up with a business day and I was coming up with a business day and I was coming up with a business description. So, I just dumped in description. So, I just dumped in description. So, I just dumped in everything I could possibly think of and everything I could possibly think of and everything I could possibly think of and was and you know, okay, pair this down.

was and you know, okay, pair this down. was and you know, okay, pair this down. And so, I think it's good for um I think And so, I think it's good for um I think And so, I think it's good for um I think it's good for stuff like that where it's good for stuff like that where it's good for stuff like that where you've got an idea and you need to sort you've got an idea and you need to sort you've got an idea and you need to sort of sharpen it up and you just need to of sharpen it up and you just need to of sharpen it up and you just need to make sure that it's natural before you make sure that it's natural before you make sure that it's natural before you go and use it on somebody. Uh make sure go and use it on somebody. Uh make sure go and use it on somebody. Uh make sure that it's actually what you want to say that it's actually what you want to say that it's actually what you want to say and you take out variables. I've been and you take out variables. I've been and you take out variables. I've been seeing these like horror stories of you seeing these like horror stories of you seeing these like horror stories of you know AI put um insert company name in know AI put um insert company name in know AI put um insert company name in brackets and has this person left it in brackets and has this person left it in brackets and has this person left it in their email or whatever. So you can't do their email or whatever. So you can't do their email or whatever. So you can't do that. that. that. >> Do you think that when you use AI do you >> Do you think that when you use AI do you >> Do you think that when you use AI do you think that for for cold emailing to be think that for for cold emailing to be think that for for cold emailing to be very specific do you think recipients very specific do you think recipients very specific do you think recipients would care? I don't think so. Um, and I would care? I don't think so. Um, and I would care? I don't think so. Um, and I think about me, think about me, think about me, I usually I I get it's kind of weird I usually I I get it's kind of weird I usually I I get it's kind of weird because I'm on both sides, both as a because I'm on both sides, both as a because I'm on both sides, both as a business owner and as a salesperson. So, business owner and as a salesperson. So, business owner and as a salesperson. So, I both am sending out cold emails and I both am sending out cold emails and I both am sending out cold emails and receiving cold emails. And my first receiving cold emails. And my first receiving cold emails. And my first thought is not, is this AI? Because if thought is not, is this AI? Because if thought is not, is this AI? Because if so, I'm going to ignore it. so, I'm going to ignore it. so, I'm going to ignore it. >> You know, my first thought is, do I care >> You know, my first thought is, do I care >> You know, my first thought is, do I care about this? Now, I might start to worry about this? Now, I might start to worry about this? Now, I might start to worry if it's AI, if it's um too weird, if if it's AI, if it's um too weird, if if it's AI, if it's um too weird, if something, you know, if there's these something, you know, if there's these something, you know, if there's these like standout features that I really like standout features that I really like standout features that I really think, where's this coming from? But think, where's this coming from? But think, where's this coming from? But in today's world of automation and and in today's world of automation and and in today's world of automation and and mass marketing and big numbers, I still mass marketing and big numbers, I still mass marketing and big numbers, I still read some of those. I mean, to me, even read some of those. I mean, to me, even read some of those. I mean, to me, even if I know that, hey, this message was if I know that, hey, this message was if I know that, hey, this message was automated or I get these messages on automated or I get these messages on automated or I get these messages on LinkedIn a lot that I know weren't

LinkedIn a lot that I know weren't LinkedIn a lot that I know weren't crafted for me. It was triggered. You crafted for me. It was triggered. You crafted for me. It was triggered. You know, I I clicked on something and then know, I I clicked on something and then know, I I clicked on something and then boom, I get this inbox message, but it boom, I get this inbox message, but it boom, I get this inbox message, but it still might be valuable. Somebody has still might be valuable. Somebody has still might be valuable. Somebody has some sort of targeting algorithm and some sort of targeting algorithm and some sort of targeting algorithm and maybe AI or a pre-written message, but maybe AI or a pre-written message, but maybe AI or a pre-written message, but that doesn't mean it's not valuable. So, that doesn't mean it's not valuable. So, that doesn't mean it's not valuable. So, I'll still sort of read some of those. I'll still sort of read some of those. I'll still sort of read some of those. What are the telltale signs for you What are the telltale signs for you What are the telltale signs for you outside of sort of the horror stories of outside of sort of the horror stories of outside of sort of the horror stories of placeholder copy when it comes to AI? Is placeholder copy when it comes to AI? Is placeholder copy when it comes to AI? Is there anything that's like if that shows there anything that's like if that shows there anything that's like if that shows up? [laughter] up? [laughter] up? [laughter] Well, I've wonder I don't know if it's a Well, I've wonder I don't know if it's a Well, I've wonder I don't know if it's a template that people are just using or template that people are just using or template that people are just using or if it's AI, but there's this very if it's AI, but there's this very if it's AI, but there's this very generic uh email solicitation email that generic uh email solicitation email that generic uh email solicitation email that I get a lot and it it always goes I get a lot and it it always goes I get a lot and it it always goes something like this. Hey, I noticed uh something like this. Hey, I noticed uh something like this. Hey, I noticed uh your website. You have such an your website. You have such an your website. You have such an insightful view on X. insightful view on X. insightful view on X. I wonder if we could dive into that more I wonder if we could dive into that more I wonder if we could dive into that more deeply. deeply. deeply. I also noticed some errors with your I also noticed some errors with your I also noticed some errors with your website. Would you like me to send you a website. Would you like me to send you a website. Would you like me to send you a free SEO report? And it's always the free SEO report? And it's always the free SEO report? And it's always the same. It starts out with this generic, same. It starts out with this generic, same. It starts out with this generic, you know, um, thing, this generic you know, um, thing, this generic you know, um, thing, this generic sentence like, wow, what a great, and I sentence like, wow, what a great, and I sentence like, wow, what a great, and I don't know if that's AI or a template don't know if that's AI or a template don't know if that's AI or a template because I I think there was also some, because I I think there was also some, because I I think there was also some, you know, in the last several years some you know, in the last several years some you know, in the last several years some advice on how to catch people's advice on how to catch people's advice on how to catch people's attention over email. So maybe that's a attention over email. So maybe that's a attention over email. So maybe that's a little pre- AI. It is it's a natural little pre- AI. It is it's a natural little pre- AI. It is it's a natural thing to talk about, right? AI is is thing to talk about, right? AI is is thing to talk about, right? AI is is infiltrating so much of what we do. It infiltrating so much of what we do. It infiltrating so much of what we do. It should be, in my opinion, it should be should be, in my opinion, it should be should be, in my opinion, it should be there to act as a role player. It should there to act as a role player. It should there to act as a role player. It should be something that help. It's almost like be something that help. It's almost like be something that help. It's almost like it's a pantomime. If you if you can be

it's a pantomime. If you if you can be it's a pantomime. If you if you can be very clear in prompting AI to help you very clear in prompting AI to help you very clear in prompting AI to help you to be effective in brainstorming, in to be effective in brainstorming, in to be effective in brainstorming, in revising copy, in, you know, those sort revising copy, in, you know, those sort revising copy, in, you know, those sort of ways, that's a good use of AI. It's of ways, that's a good use of AI. It's of ways, that's a good use of AI. It's it's when you kind of let it go on it's when you kind of let it go on it's when you kind of let it go on autopilot where you run into trouble. autopilot where you run into trouble. autopilot where you run into trouble. And I think autopilot is a lot of the And I think autopilot is a lot of the And I think autopilot is a lot of the the cause behind bad cold emailing. So, the cause behind bad cold emailing. So, the cause behind bad cold emailing. So, I would love to just hear, Ryan, what I would love to just hear, Ryan, what I would love to just hear, Ryan, what goes into a good cold email for you and goes into a good cold email for you and goes into a good cold email for you and then what is your process for writing then what is your process for writing then what is your process for writing one? My cold emails [snorts] are very one? My cold emails [snorts] are very one? My cold emails [snorts] are very manual. Um, so I'm I'm starting out manual. Um, so I'm I'm starting out manual. Um, so I'm I'm starting out with, you know, research on the company with, you know, research on the company with, you know, research on the company and because I want to find out, okay, and because I want to find out, okay, and because I want to find out, okay, who's the person I'm supposed to contact who's the person I'm supposed to contact who's the person I'm supposed to contact in this company? And again, we're in this company? And again, we're in this company? And again, we're thinking and I'll I'll sort of set the thinking and I'll I'll sort of set the thinking and I'll I'll sort of set the stage. Maybe I'm trying to show them an stage. Maybe I'm trying to show them an stage. Maybe I'm trying to show them an idea that I want them to buy from me or idea that I want them to buy from me or idea that I want them to buy from me or I want them to take a new product as I want them to take a new product as I want them to take a new product as wholesale, you know, depending on what wholesale, you know, depending on what wholesale, you know, depending on what kind of company it is. And so I'm always kind of company it is. And so I'm always kind of company it is. And so I'm always looking who's the person who reviews looking who's the person who reviews looking who's the person who reviews this type of idea and maybe they have a this type of idea and maybe they have a this type of idea and maybe they have a company profile on the website or maybe company profile on the website or maybe company profile on the website or maybe the company has an about section and the company has an about section and the company has an about section and they're saying, "Oh, we love these types they're saying, "Oh, we love these types they're saying, "Oh, we love these types of ideas or we don't do this." And you of ideas or we don't do this." And you of ideas or we don't do this." And you stay away from these people or it helps stay away from these people or it helps stay away from these people or it helps guide. Um, I've had some success with guide. Um, I've had some success with guide. Um, I've had some success with companies that mention something in companies that mention something in companies that mention something in their about page, their about page, their about page, something about their ethos as a company something about their ethos as a company something about their ethos as a company or their goals. And sometimes those or their goals. And sometimes those or their goals. And sometimes those [clears throat] are really fluffy and [clears throat] are really fluffy and [clears throat] are really fluffy and the company actually doesn't care about the company actually doesn't care about the company actually doesn't care about things that they wrote. But sometimes if

things that they wrote. But sometimes if things that they wrote. But sometimes if you sort of mention some of those, hey, you sort of mention some of those, hey, you sort of mention some of those, hey, I think this fits with what you said you I think this fits with what you said you I think this fits with what you said you wanted because, you know, we're doing wanted because, you know, we're doing wanted because, you know, we're doing the same thing or whatever. So, it the same thing or whatever. So, it the same thing or whatever. So, it usually starts off with research in that usually starts off with research in that usually starts off with research in that way. Even before that, I could say I way. Even before that, I could say I way. Even before that, I could say I find the companies with a simple Google find the companies with a simple Google find the companies with a simple Google search a lot of times, search a lot of times, search a lot of times, >> right? >> right? >> right? >> You know, uh, florists near me and >> You know, uh, florists near me and >> You know, uh, florists near me and you're then you're then you're then >> getting the the list of websites. Um, >> getting the the list of websites. Um, >> getting the the list of websites. Um, and then I'm thinking, okay, what is it and then I'm thinking, okay, what is it and then I'm thinking, okay, what is it that I'm trying to do? Am I trying to that I'm trying to do? Am I trying to that I'm trying to do? Am I trying to sell them something? And the answer sell them something? And the answer sell them something? And the answer should probably be no. I think you're should probably be no. I think you're should probably be no. I think you're trying to get a response. And so then I trying to get a response. And so then I trying to get a response. And so then I think, how do I get a response? In fact, think, how do I get a response? In fact, think, how do I get a response? In fact, my first email to you, um, you know, I my first email to you, um, you know, I my first email to you, um, you know, I had missed a deadline to participate in had missed a deadline to participate in had missed a deadline to participate in a Hunter uh, cold email contest and I a Hunter uh, cold email contest and I a Hunter uh, cold email contest and I said, I want to see if I can get them to said, I want to see if I can get them to said, I want to see if I can get them to talk to me even without being able to talk to me even without being able to talk to me even without being able to submit this application. And that was my submit this application. And that was my submit this application. And that was my whole thought to you is, how do I get whole thought to you is, how do I get whole thought to you is, how do I get this guy just to read this and respond?

this guy just to read this and respond? this guy just to read this and respond? Doesn't really matter what the response Doesn't really matter what the response Doesn't really matter what the response is. If there's a response, there's is. If there's a response, there's is. If there's a response, there's something there. And so then that goes something there. And so then that goes something there. And so then that goes into how long should this be? And I into how long should this be? And I into how long should this be? And I typically start my email. I erase the typically start my email. I erase the typically start my email. I erase the send to I erase the sender so that I send to I erase the sender so that I send to I erase the sender so that I can't accidentally send it. And I just can't accidentally send it. And I just can't accidentally send it. And I just dump everything in there, you know, and dump everything in there, you know, and dump everything in there, you know, and I want to I want to craft it in the I want to I want to craft it in the I want to I want to craft it in the email because I want to see on this email because I want to see on this email because I want to see on this screen how's it going to look [snorts] screen how's it going to look [snorts] screen how's it going to look [snorts] um size-wise. It helps me learn, am I um size-wise. It helps me learn, am I um size-wise. It helps me learn, am I writing too much? And I typically dump writing too much? And I typically dump writing too much? And I typically dump out everything and then start saying, out everything and then start saying, out everything and then start saying, okay, here's all my ideas. What was okay, here's all my ideas. What was okay, here's all my ideas. What was unnecessary? What was repetitive? What unnecessary? What was repetitive? What unnecessary? What was repetitive? What can I delete? and try to probably delete can I delete? and try to probably delete can I delete? and try to probably delete as much as possible. And then sometimes as much as possible. And then sometimes as much as possible. And then sometimes the last step is like actually the last step is like actually the last step is like actually strategically rearranging sections. Does strategically rearranging sections. Does strategically rearranging sections. Does this paragraph make more sense here? this paragraph make more sense here? this paragraph make more sense here? Would this help drag them along? Because Would this help drag them along? Because Would this help drag them along? Because it's every sentence is just to get to it's every sentence is just to get to it's every sentence is just to get to the next sentence. I want you to read the next sentence. I want you to read the next sentence. I want you to read the next line. I want you to read the the next line. I want you to read the the next line. I want you to read the next sentence. I want you to um and then next sentence. I want you to um and then next sentence. I want you to um and then try to make it dummy proof. You have to try to make it dummy proof. You have to try to make it dummy proof. You have to make your outreach so dummy proof where make your outreach so dummy proof where make your outreach so dummy proof where if you're asking something that needs to if you're asking something that needs to if you're asking something that needs to be very obvious. If if I have a be very obvious. If if I have a be very obvious. If if I have a question, I want that question mark to question, I want that question mark to question, I want that question mark to probably be the last thing they see.

probably be the last thing they see. probably be the last thing they see. >> You know, >> You know, >> You know, >> I don't want to put an explanation >> I don't want to put an explanation >> I don't want to put an explanation sentence. Hey, would you be interested sentence. Hey, would you be interested sentence. Hey, would you be interested in this, in this, in this, >> I'm really hoping you'll respond to me >> I'm really hoping you'll respond to me >> I'm really hoping you'll respond to me because it would be great. I don't want because it would be great. I don't want because it would be great. I don't want to put that because then my final to put that because then my final to put that because then my final sentence didn't have a question mark on sentence didn't have a question mark on sentence didn't have a question mark on it. And if they're just skimming over it. And if they're just skimming over it. And if they're just skimming over this, they'd probably missed it and just this, they'd probably missed it and just this, they'd probably missed it and just go, "Huh, I don't know what that email go, "Huh, I don't know what that email go, "Huh, I don't know what that email is about." Just ignore it. is about." Just ignore it. is about." Just ignore it. >> So, have you ever bought anything from a >> So, have you ever bought anything from a >> So, have you ever bought anything from a cold email? cold email? cold email? >> I have. I have. Um, I the the thing that >> I have. I have. Um, I the the thing that >> I have. I have. Um, I the the thing that comes to mind recently, somebody comes to mind recently, somebody comes to mind recently, somebody actually got me on um I I don't know if actually got me on um I I don't know if actually got me on um I I don't know if it's exactly SEO, but this company it's exactly SEO, but this company it's exactly SEO, but this company reached out to me and they're helping reached out to me and they're helping reached out to me and they're helping revise one of my Amazon listings right revise one of my Amazon listings right revise one of my Amazon listings right now. now. now. >> Okay. >> Okay. >> Okay. >> And I mean, they got me, you know, they >> And I mean, they got me, you know, they >> And I mean, they got me, you know, they they reached out said, "Hey, you know, they reached out said, "Hey, you know, they reached out said, "Hey, you know, we found your Amazon listing. It sucks. we found your Amazon listing. It sucks. we found your Amazon listing. It sucks. Um, you need some help." We they didn't Um, you need some help." We they didn't Um, you need some help." We they didn't exactly say that, but they made the case exactly say that, but they made the case exactly say that, but they made the case that, hey, I think [clears throat] that, hey, I think [clears throat] that, hey, I think [clears throat] there's some opportunity here that there's some opportunity here that there's some opportunity here that you're not capitalizing on, and I think you're not capitalizing on, and I think you're not capitalizing on, and I think we're the right people to be able to we're the right people to be able to we're the right people to be able to help you with that. Um, and long story help you with that. Um, and long story help you with that. Um, and long story short, I paid them money and we're short, I paid them money and we're short, I paid them money and we're trying to make more money together now, trying to make more money together now, trying to make more money together now, you know. [snorts] you know. [snorts] you know. [snorts] >> Well, that that is great. I mean, I >> Well, that that is great. I mean, I >> Well, that that is great. I mean, I personally set aside time every Friday personally set aside time every Friday personally set aside time every Friday afternoon. If you can send me a good afternoon. If you can send me a good afternoon. If you can send me a good cold email, um, I will open up my diary cold email, um, I will open up my diary cold email, um, I will open up my diary to to anyone that sends me a good cold to to anyone that sends me a good cold to to anyone that sends me a good cold email. I think it's just I think it is I email. I think it's just I think it is I email. I think it's just I think it is I mean I'm British, right? So we're mean I'm British, right? So we're mean I'm British, right? So we're polite. First of all, it's polite. If polite. First of all, it's polite. If polite. First of all, it's polite. If someone's done a good job, it's polite someone's done a good job, it's polite someone's done a good job, it's polite to actually have a conversation, but to actually have a conversation, but to actually have a conversation, but more importantly, if it's something that more importantly, if it's something that more importantly, if it's something that I think is of worth to myself or to I think is of worth to myself or to I think is of worth to myself or to Hunter, then I'm it's part of my job to

Hunter, then I'm it's part of my job to Hunter, then I'm it's part of my job to listen to these people, to actually give listen to these people, to actually give listen to these people, to actually give them the time of day. I see cold email, them the time of day. I see cold email, them the time of day. I see cold email, and I would love to know what you think. and I would love to know what you think. and I would love to know what you think. I see cold email not as spam. I see cold I see cold email not as spam. I see cold I see cold email not as spam. I see cold email as a delivery channel. It's it's email as a delivery channel. It's it's email as a delivery channel. It's it's someone's um lowcost opportunity to get someone's um lowcost opportunity to get someone's um lowcost opportunity to get right in front of me when I check my right in front of me when I check my right in front of me when I check my emails and to actually get my attention. emails and to actually get my attention. emails and to actually get my attention. If you get my attention, that's because If you get my attention, that's because If you get my attention, that's because you've been personal, relevant, and made you've been personal, relevant, and made you've been personal, relevant, and made it worth my time. Nothing to do with it worth my time. Nothing to do with it worth my time. Nothing to do with timing. I think timing is it's this timing. I think timing is it's this timing. I think timing is it's this magical silver bullet that's not a real magical silver bullet that's not a real magical silver bullet that's not a real thing. But all this to say, do you think thing. But all this to say, do you think thing. But all this to say, do you think cold email is spam? cold email is spam? cold email is spam? >> No, I don't think it's spam. I >> No, I don't think it's spam. I >> No, I don't think it's spam. I absolutely agree with your assessment. absolutely agree with your assessment. absolutely agree with your assessment. It's just the channel. Um, you know, It's just the channel. Um, you know, It's just the channel. Um, you know, used to you might have done sales calls used to you might have done sales calls used to you might have done sales calls by actually picking up the phone and by actually picking up the phone and by actually picking up the phone and calling, you know, and and or going calling, you know, and and or going calling, you know, and and or going doortodoor. I sold Boy Scout popcorn and doortodoor. I sold Boy Scout popcorn and doortodoor. I sold Boy Scout popcorn and that's how you did it, you know. that's how you did it, you know. that's how you did it, you know. >> Um, you just literally walked down the >> Um, you just literally walked down the >> Um, you just literally walked down the neighborhood and knocked on the doors neighborhood and knocked on the doors neighborhood and knocked on the doors and most of those people weren't and most of those people weren't and most of those people weren't offended, just rarely now and then. Um, offended, just rarely now and then. Um, offended, just rarely now and then. Um, I think cold email becomes spam when I think cold email becomes spam when I think cold email becomes spam when it's blind. And what I mean by that is it's blind. And what I mean by that is it's blind. And what I mean by that is you're not targeting your people at all.

you're not targeting your people at all. you're not targeting your people at all. You don't know who you're emailing. You You don't know who you're emailing. You You don't know who you're emailing. You just got some list of emails or you just got some list of emails or you just got some list of emails or you randomly typed in an email. Um I get randomly typed in an email. Um I get randomly typed in an email. Um I get these emails where people uh and I guess these emails where people uh and I guess these emails where people uh and I guess it says something about my websites and it says something about my websites and it says something about my websites and stuff because they're found on like the stuff because they're found on like the stuff because they're found on like the 10th page of Google. So what these 10th page of Google. So what these 10th page of Google. So what these compan I actually asked some of them and compan I actually asked some of them and compan I actually asked some of them and what they'll do is these SEO companies what they'll do is these SEO companies what they'll do is these SEO companies will search for some keyword go to the will search for some keyword go to the will search for some keyword go to the 10th page of Google and find out who's 10th page of Google and find out who's 10th page of Google and find out who's there and then like click on the there and then like click on the there and then like click on the websites you know who is data and and websites you know who is data and and websites you know who is data and and email you and but that's very blind email you and but that's very blind email you and but that's very blind because they really haven't investigated because they really haven't investigated because they really haven't investigated my company. They don't actually know if my company. They don't actually know if my company. They don't actually know if they believe that they can be a fit for they believe that they can be a fit for they believe that they can be a fit for me. But assuming you're doing some due me. But assuming you're doing some due me. But assuming you're doing some due diligence, no, I I don't think it's um diligence, no, I I don't think it's um diligence, no, I I don't think it's um spam at all and I've gotten some spam at all and I've gotten some spam at all and I've gotten some valuable things from it because these valuable things from it because these valuable things from it because these people believe that they can help me. people believe that they can help me. people believe that they can help me. They're, hey, we all have to sell They're, hey, we all have to sell They're, hey, we all have to sell something. We all have to make money. something. We all have to make money. something. We all have to make money. They're trying it this way. So, I take They're trying it this way. So, I take They're trying it this way. So, I take an approach more like yours, which is, an approach more like yours, which is, an approach more like yours, which is, hey, there's a reason that they're hey, there's a reason that they're hey, there's a reason that they're reaching out. Usually the blind ones you reaching out. Usually the blind ones you reaching out. Usually the blind ones you can tell and you can ignore and delete can tell and you can ignore and delete can tell and you can ignore and delete those pretty easily. But for something those pretty easily. But for something those pretty easily. But for something that's in field, hey, I'm developing a that's in field, hey, I'm developing a that's in field, hey, I'm developing a clothing company and you tell me you're clothing company and you tell me you're clothing company and you tell me you're a clothing manufacturer. Maybe there's a clothing manufacturer. Maybe there's a clothing manufacturer. Maybe there's something I should look at there. You something I should look at there. You something I should look at there. You reached out to me for a reason. Um, reached out to me for a reason. Um, reached out to me for a reason. Um, maybe there's no fit, but maybe there maybe there's no fit, but maybe there maybe there's no fit, but maybe there is. I like the open-mindedness that you is. I like the open-mindedness that you is. I like the open-mindedness that you have towards the channel. I think that have towards the channel. I think that have towards the channel. I think that is and that's something we saw in our is and that's something we saw in our is and that's something we saw in our state of cold email 2025 research is state of cold email 2025 research is state of cold email 2025 research is that there's a a heck of a lot of that there's a a heck of a lot of that there's a a heck of a lot of optimism around cold email but actually

optimism around cold email but actually optimism around cold email but actually not enough people are delivering on it not enough people are delivering on it not enough people are delivering on it and that's sort of what something that's and that's sort of what something that's and that's sort of what something that's inspiring me every day with Hunter is inspiring me every day with Hunter is inspiring me every day with Hunter is how can I help our users how can I help how can I help our users how can I help how can I help our users how can I help people beyond our user base just anyone people beyond our user base just anyone people beyond our user base just anyone that wants to do outreach to get better that wants to do outreach to get better that wants to do outreach to get better and as part of that I know that we are and as part of that I know that we are and as part of that I know that we are both bookworms I would love to ask both bookworms I would love to ask both bookworms I would love to ask before we wrap up Brian Uh what is in before we wrap up Brian Uh what is in before we wrap up Brian Uh what is in your reading list right now? Your your reading list right now? Your your reading list right now? Your podcast cue, you know, any webinars you podcast cue, you know, any webinars you podcast cue, you know, any webinars you signed up. What's going on right now in signed up. What's going on right now in signed up. What's going on right now in terms of uh your learning? terms of uh your learning? terms of uh your learning? >> Well, there's a little bit in >> Well, there's a little bit in >> Well, there's a little bit in everything. Um I try to keep my reading everything. Um I try to keep my reading everything. Um I try to keep my reading list. I've got way more books on my list. I've got way more books on my list. I've got way more books on my shelf than than I can read. I don't read shelf than than I can read. I don't read shelf than than I can read. I don't read fast. And I've got [snorts] them in fast. And I've got [snorts] them in fast. And I've got [snorts] them in every category. I mean, I've got sort of every category. I mean, I've got sort of every category. I mean, I've got sort of the classics of fiction, uh philosophy, the classics of fiction, uh philosophy, the classics of fiction, uh philosophy, classical philosophy from a thousand classical philosophy from a thousand classical philosophy from a thousand years ago, you know, books on religion years ago, you know, books on religion years ago, you know, books on religion and of course business. Um, a lot of the and of course business. Um, a lot of the and of course business. Um, a lot of the podcasts and audio books I'm listening podcasts and audio books I'm listening podcasts and audio books I'm listening to are business related. So, you know, to are business related. So, you know, to are business related. So, you know, how to do business, um, sales, just how to do business, um, sales, just how to do business, um, sales, just anything that I can learn how to do anything that I can learn how to do anything that I can learn how to do sales. Uh, those are those are a lot.

sales. Uh, those are those are a lot. sales. Uh, those are those are a lot. Somebody recently gave me a book that I Somebody recently gave me a book that I Somebody recently gave me a book that I had never heard of and I don't think I had never heard of and I don't think I had never heard of and I don't think I ever would have come across and it's ever would have come across and it's ever would have come across and it's called The Almanac of Naval Ravocant. called The Almanac of Naval Ravocant. called The Almanac of Naval Ravocant. And I don't know if I'm pronouncing his And I don't know if I'm pronouncing his And I don't know if I'm pronouncing his name correctly, but he's something of name correctly, but he's something of name correctly, but he's something of maybe a modernday I don't know what the maybe a modernday I don't know what the maybe a modernday I don't know what the I forget the word. Benjamin Franklin I forget the word. Benjamin Franklin I forget the word. Benjamin Franklin type, you know, he dabbled in a lot of type, you know, he dabbled in a lot of type, you know, he dabbled in a lot of different things. different things. different things. >> Um, he's done some investing. He's done >> Um, he's done some investing. He's done >> Um, he's done some investing. He's done some he's had his own companies, some he's had his own companies, some he's had his own companies, entrepreneur, but also a deep thinker entrepreneur, but also a deep thinker entrepreneur, but also a deep thinker and a freethinker and sort of not afraid and a freethinker and sort of not afraid and a freethinker and sort of not afraid to have his own ideas. And his book has to have his own ideas. And his book has to have his own ideas. And his book has been really interesting. Um, it's been really interesting. Um, it's been really interesting. Um, it's actually not even written by him. actually not even written by him. actually not even written by him. somebody sort of collected a bunch of somebody sort of collected a bunch of somebody sort of collected a bunch of his sayings and just put them together his sayings and just put them together his sayings and just put them together in a book. So, you're sort of supposed in a book. So, you're sort of supposed in a book. So, you're sort of supposed to read this and understand who this to read this and understand who this to read this and understand who this person is and what their philosophies person is and what their philosophies person is and what their philosophies are. And it's been a very interesting are. And it's been a very interesting are. And it's been a very interesting read. read. read. >> Okay. Well, what is the what's the main >> Okay. Well, what is the what's the main >> Okay. Well, what is the what's the main takeaway from that? By the way, takeaway from that? By the way, takeaway from that? By the way, >> so far the interesting takeaway from >> so far the interesting takeaway from >> so far the interesting takeaway from that book was he says that attention, that book was he says that attention, that book was he says that attention, not time, not money, is your real not time, not money, is your real not time, not money, is your real currency. So there's this idea that of currency. So there's this idea that of currency. So there's this idea that of course money is money, money is course money is money, money is course money is money, money is currency. But then some people will currency. But then some people will currency. But then some people will think, oh no, time is the real currency, think, oh no, time is the real currency, think, oh no, time is the real currency, you know, because you can't buy time and you know, because you can't buy time and you know, because you can't buy time and so what you give your time to. But this so what you give your time to. But this so what you give your time to. But this guy says it's actually attention because guy says it's actually attention because guy says it's actually attention because attention is something that you can attention is something that you can attention is something that you can actually control. Uh you can't control actually control. Uh you can't control actually control. Uh you can't control time. You can't choose how much time you time. You can't choose how much time you time. You can't choose how much time you get or don't get, but you can with your get or don't get, but you can with your get or don't get, but you can with your attention. I think that's an interesting attention. I think that's an interesting attention. I think that's an interesting concept. I So my wife and I have been concept. I So my wife and I have been concept. I So my wife and I have been ruminating on that one lately. What are

ruminating on that one lately. What are ruminating on that one lately. What are we giving our attention to? we giving our attention to? we giving our attention to? >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. That that's really deep. >> Yeah. That that's really deep. >> Yeah. That that's really deep. That's really really deep. And speaking That's really really deep. And speaking That's really really deep. And speaking of takeaways though, of takeaways though, of takeaways though, natural segue. Speaking of takeaways, I natural segue. Speaking of takeaways, I natural segue. Speaking of takeaways, I would love to just kind of as we wrap up would love to just kind of as we wrap up would love to just kind of as we wrap up today's episode, um, if there are three today's episode, um, if there are three today's episode, um, if there are three things that you could give advice on to things that you could give advice on to things that you could give advice on to our listeners about your journey, your our listeners about your journey, your our listeners about your journey, your experiences, and your path ahead, what experiences, and your path ahead, what experiences, and your path ahead, what would those takeaways and pieces of would those takeaways and pieces of would those takeaways and pieces of advice be? Try everything. That's uh advice be? Try everything. That's uh advice be? Try everything. That's uh that's something that I wish I would that's something that I wish I would that's something that I wish I would have had a bolder mindset on to begin have had a bolder mindset on to begin have had a bolder mindset on to begin with. Try everything. Um you may not with. Try everything. Um you may not with. Try everything. Um you may not know what sales channel is going to know what sales channel is going to know what sales channel is going to stick. You may not know what network uh stick. You may not know what network uh stick. You may not know what network uh is going to be valuable. Try everything. is going to be valuable. Try everything. is going to be valuable. Try everything. Go to every event. Network with every Go to every event. Network with every Go to every event. Network with every person. Um email every person. You don't person. Um email every person. You don't person. Um email every person. You don't know who's going to become your know who's going to become your know who's going to become your customer. [laughter] customer. [laughter] customer. [laughter] You know, I I hope that people will take You know, I I hope that people will take You know, I I hope that people will take cold outreach more like you and I do, cold outreach more like you and I do, cold outreach more like you and I do, >> both in terms of getting and receiving. >> both in terms of getting and receiving. >> both in terms of getting and receiving. Um, I hope that they'll take a more open Um, I hope that they'll take a more open Um, I hope that they'll take a more open mindset and be more polite like you, mindset and be more polite like you, mindset and be more polite like you, James, and actually read some of those James, and actually read some of those James, and actually read some of those and and evaluate them honestly. I don't and and evaluate them honestly. I don't and and evaluate them honestly. I don't want a response to every email. I don't want a response to every email. I don't want a response to every email. I don't I don't even fault people for giving a I don't even fault people for giving a I don't even fault people for giving a response for not giving a response to response for not giving a response to response for not giving a response to lots of my cold emails. But if you have lots of my cold emails. But if you have lots of my cold emails. But if you have responded, if you did open up the email, responded, if you did open up the email, responded, if you did open up the email, you might as well just drop a line that you might as well just drop a line that you might as well just drop a line that says, "Hey, this is or isn't a fit for says, "Hey, this is or isn't a fit for says, "Hey, this is or isn't a fit for me me me >> or you know, go away or let's talk >> or you know, go away or let's talk >> or you know, go away or let's talk more." Um, if you do respond and you go more." Um, if you do respond and you go more." Um, if you do respond and you go back and forth, don't just go somebody,

back and forth, don't just go somebody, back and forth, don't just go somebody, you know, if you set up a calendarly you know, if you set up a calendarly you know, if you set up a calendarly meeting, show up to the meeting. You meeting, show up to the meeting. You meeting, show up to the meeting. You know, those sorts of things. know, those sorts of things. know, those sorts of things. >> Basics. Basics. >> Basics. Basics. >> Basics. Basics. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Well, you would hope the basics. >> Well, you would hope the basics. >> Well, you would hope the basics. >> You would hope. Right. Well, Ryan, I've >> You would hope. Right. Well, Ryan, I've >> You would hope. Right. Well, Ryan, I've had a a great time talking to you today. had a a great time talking to you today. had a a great time talking to you today. I think that everything that you've I think that everything that you've I think that everything that you've shared really goes back to this idea of, shared really goes back to this idea of, shared really goes back to this idea of, you know, it isn't about frameworks. It you know, it isn't about frameworks. It you know, it isn't about frameworks. It isn't about acronyms. It isn't about isn't about acronyms. It isn't about isn't about acronyms. It isn't about theory. Really, when it comes to growing theory. Really, when it comes to growing theory. Really, when it comes to growing your business, it's all about being your business, it's all about being your business, it's all about being realistic, being pragmatic. And a lot of realistic, being pragmatic. And a lot of realistic, being pragmatic. And a lot of what you shared today, I hope inspires what you shared today, I hope inspires what you shared today, I hope inspires our listeners. I hope that our listeners our listeners. I hope that our listeners our listeners. I hope that our listeners do feel encouraged to reach out to you do feel encouraged to reach out to you do feel encouraged to reach out to you on your LinkedIn. And obviously, we'll on your LinkedIn. And obviously, we'll on your LinkedIn. And obviously, we'll we'll link to that in the show notes. we'll link to that in the show notes. we'll link to that in the show notes. Um, but the only the only thing left to Um, but the only the only thing left to Um, but the only the only thing left to say to you, Ryan, is is thank you for say to you, Ryan, is is thank you for say to you, Ryan, is is thank you for your time and uh, thanks for being part your time and uh, thanks for being part your time and uh, thanks for being part of Outfox. of Outfox. of Outfox. >> Yeah, thank you for inviting me. >> Yeah, thank you for inviting me. >> Yeah, thank you for inviting me. >> Once again, thank you to Ryan for >> Once again, thank you to Ryan for >> Once again, thank you to Ryan for joining today's episode of Outfox. If joining today's episode of Outfox. If joining today's episode of Outfox. If you like what you heard, please like, you like what you heard, please like, you like what you heard, please like, [music] subscribe, and explore even more [music] subscribe, and explore even more [music] subscribe, and explore even more of the Outfox archive by visiting of the Outfox archive by visiting of the Outfox archive by visiting www.outfox.hunter.io.

[music] Here was Ryan Rogers. I am James [music] Here was Ryan Rogers. I am James Milson and we're out of