Outfoxed podcast by Hunter.io | Ep. 3: Rand Fishkin on optimizing GTM for what you're great at

This is Outfox, the podcast brought to This is Outfox, the podcast brought to you by hunter.io, the trusted B2B lead you by hunter.io, the trusted B2B lead you by hunter.io, the trusted B2B lead generation platform built for every generation platform built for every generation platform built for every professional. Get ready for no professional. Get ready for no professional. Get ready for no playbooks, no posturing, and no egos. playbooks, no posturing, and no egos. playbooks, no posturing, and no egos. This is the show for the builders, not This is the show for the builders, not This is the show for the builders, not the theorists. Your host today is Hunter the theorists. Your host today is Hunter the theorists. Your host today is Hunter CEO Matt Tharp and his guest, SEO CEO Matt Tharp and his guest, SEO CEO Matt Tharp and his guest, SEO godfather and entrepreneur Rand Fishkin godfather and entrepreneur Rand Fishkin godfather and entrepreneur Rand Fishkin of Spark Toro. Let's get into it. of Spark Toro. Let's get into it. of Spark Toro. Let's get into it. >> Well, welcome to Outf Fox. Excited to be >> Well, welcome to Outf Fox. Excited to be >> Well, welcome to Outf Fox. Excited to be here. We've got a tremendous guest with here. We've got a tremendous guest with here. We've got a tremendous guest with us, Rand Fishkin. If you're listening to us, Rand Fishkin. If you're listening to us, Rand Fishkin. If you're listening to Outf Fox, you probably know of Rand. If Outf Fox, you probably know of Rand. If Outf Fox, you probably know of Rand. If not, have read his book, have read many not, have read his book, have read many not, have read his book, have read many of his posts online and all the various of his posts online and all the various of his posts online and all the various media sources, YouTube. I'm sure you've media sources, YouTube. I'm sure you've media sources, YouTube. I'm sure you've probably covered all the bases at this probably covered all the bases at this probably covered all the bases at this point, Rand. Uh, conferences. I feel point, Rand. Uh, conferences. I feel point, Rand. Uh, conferences. I feel like other than your own talk show at like other than your own talk show at like other than your own talk show at this point, you've probably covered it. this point, you've probably covered it. this point, you've probably covered it. >> Yeah, thank God I don't have to do that. >> Yeah, thank God I don't have to do that. >> Yeah, thank God I don't have to do that. Matt, do you want to hear a crazy story? Matt, do you want to hear a crazy story? Matt, do you want to hear a crazy story? I was on the Oprah Winfrey show, like on I was on the Oprah Winfrey show, like on I was on the Oprah Winfrey show, like on her talk show. Stop. her talk show. Stop. her talk show. Stop. >> Yeah. With my wife back when it was in >> Yeah. With my wife back when it was in >> Yeah. With my wife back when it was in television syndication like 2008. Yeah.

television syndication like 2008. Yeah. television syndication like 2008. Yeah. So got to meet her and be on stage and So got to meet her and be on stage and So got to meet her and be on stage and stay at her hotel in Chicago. It was a stay at her hotel in Chicago. It was a stay at her hotel in Chicago. It was a weird experience. Very weird experience. weird experience. Very weird experience. weird experience. Very weird experience. Is that the topend celebrity experience Is that the topend celebrity experience Is that the topend celebrity experience you've had? Let's see. From a third you've had? Let's see. From a third you've had? Let's see. From a third party's opinion, probably. I was once at party's opinion, probably. I was once at party's opinion, probably. I was once at a wedding seated next to Alfred Molina a wedding seated next to Alfred Molina a wedding seated next to Alfred Molina and BJ Wong and Lupita Nyongo who I have and BJ Wong and Lupita Nyongo who I have and BJ Wong and Lupita Nyongo who I have a huge crush on. It was super a huge crush on. It was super a huge crush on. It was super embarrassing. I did not look at her embarrassing. I did not look at her embarrassing. I did not look at her once. I was just like, "Nope." once. I was just like, "Nope." once. I was just like, "Nope." >> Uh, that's awesome. So, sitting next to >> Uh, that's awesome. So, sitting next to >> Uh, that's awesome. So, sitting next to those folks at the wedding had to those folks at the wedding had to those folks at the wedding had to probably for your own purposes be probably for your own purposes be probably for your own purposes be thought the list. That's awesome. thought the list. That's awesome. thought the list. That's awesome. >> It was fun, but to be honest, I had a >> It was fun, but to be honest, I had a >> It was fun, but to be honest, I had a much better time hanging out with my much better time hanging out with my much better time hanging out with my actor friends who I was actually there actor friends who I was actually there actor friends who I was actually there to see get married. to see get married. to see get married. >> Good. Okay. Yeah, of course. I assume >> Good. Okay. Yeah, of course. I assume >> Good. Okay. Yeah, of course. I assume you were not in the wedding party but you were not in the wedding party but you were not in the wedding party but still close to the people you were there still close to the people you were there still close to the people you were there to see. to see. to see. >> Again, weird story. I made friends with >> Again, weird story. I made friends with >> Again, weird story. I made friends with a Shakespearean actor in a cereal aisle a Shakespearean actor in a cereal aisle a Shakespearean actor in a cereal aisle of a grocery store. As you do, that's of a grocery store. As you do, that's of a grocery store. As you do, that's how Shakespearean actors, I assume, meet how Shakespearean actors, I assume, meet how Shakespearean actors, I assume, meet friends. Shakespearean actors are friends. Shakespearean actors are friends. Shakespearean actors are obsessed with American cereal. I think obsessed with American cereal. I think obsessed with American cereal. I think can't get enough of that Cocoa Crisp is can't get enough of that Cocoa Crisp is can't get enough of that Cocoa Crisp is the problem. I'm not a big celebrity the problem. I'm not a big celebrity the problem. I'm not a big celebrity person, but I do love the arts. I'm person, but I do love the arts. I'm person, but I do love the arts. I'm deeply interested in things that humans deeply interested in things that humans deeply interested in things that humans create, not for money. I think that's a create, not for money. I think that's a create, not for money. I think that's a beautiful and wonderful part of being beautiful and wonderful part of being beautiful and wonderful part of being human and I hope AI doesn't destroy that human and I hope AI doesn't destroy that human and I hope AI doesn't destroy that for all of us. But um yeah, it it is for all of us. But um yeah, it it is for all of us. But um yeah, it it is great to be here on the Out Fox show.

great to be here on the Out Fox show. great to be here on the Out Fox show. >> That was a weird journey to the >> That was a weird journey to the >> That was a weird journey to the beginning. I appreciate we first off beginning. I appreciate we first off beginning. I appreciate we first off never ask celebrity questions and never never ask celebrity questions and never never ask celebrity questions and never take strange turns as we just did. So take strange turns as we just did. So take strange turns as we just did. So that's a first for the opening of Out that's a first for the opening of Out that's a first for the opening of Out Fox. I look forward to an hour more of Fox. I look forward to an hour more of Fox. I look forward to an hour more of this. this. this. >> I think sum total celebrity experiences >> I think sum total celebrity experiences >> I think sum total celebrity experiences we could probably occupy another 30 we could probably occupy another 30 we could probably occupy another 30 seconds. So, we'll just move on. seconds. So, we'll just move on. seconds. So, we'll just move on. >> Okay. Wait, give me sum total of your >> Okay. Wait, give me sum total of your >> Okay. Wait, give me sum total of your experience. experience. experience. >> Okay. Okay. The sum total of my >> Okay. Okay. The sum total of my >> Okay. Okay. The sum total of my celebrity experiences are I met Mike celebrity experiences are I met Mike celebrity experiences are I met Mike Tyson twice on the same ski trip. At the Tyson twice on the same ski trip. At the Tyson twice on the same ski trip. At the beginning of the trip and at the end of beginning of the trip and at the end of beginning of the trip and at the end of the trip and this was in 1988. the trip and this was in 1988. the trip and this was in 1988. So, this was peak Mike Tyson. And he was So, this was peak Mike Tyson. And he was So, this was peak Mike Tyson. And he was there with Robin Given, but they weren't there with Robin Given, but they weren't there with Robin Given, but they weren't publicly an item yet. And they were publicly an item yet. And they were publicly an item yet. And they were there for an MTV. Uh remember when MTV there for an MTV. Uh remember when MTV there for an MTV. Uh remember when MTV did spring break? So they were in Veil did spring break? So they were in Veil did spring break? So they were in Veil for spring break where we were there to for spring break where we were there to for spring break where we were there to ski. And how old were you? Oh gosh. ski. And how old were you? Oh gosh. ski. And how old were you? Oh gosh. Well, let's see. I would have been 10 or Well, let's see. I would have been 10 or Well, let's see. I would have been 10 or 12 years old. 12 years old. 12 years old. >> Okay. Okay. So, you probably could have >> Okay. Okay. So, you probably could have >> Okay. Okay. So, you probably could have taken him. taken him. taken him. >> I mean, that was really kind of what we >> I mean, that was really kind of what we >> I mean, that was really kind of what we were headed towards clearly. I expected were headed towards clearly. I expected were headed towards clearly. I expected that I would have a shot at Robin. And that I would have a shot at Robin. And that I would have a shot at Robin. And you disagree?

you disagree? you disagree? >> No. So, I'm like 10 or 12, so I'm old >> No. So, I'm like 10 or 12, so I'm old >> No. So, I'm like 10 or 12, so I'm old enough to know that he is somebody enough to know that he is somebody enough to know that he is somebody famous. I'm old enough to kind of famous. I'm old enough to kind of famous. I'm old enough to kind of recognize him. I know he's in the sports recognize him. I know he's in the sports recognize him. I know he's in the sports world. I'm running all these things world. I'm running all these things world. I'm running all these things through my head. I'm like, I'm literally through my head. I'm like, I'm literally through my head. I'm like, I'm literally going through every football player. And going through every football player. And going through every football player. And Mike is not super tall. So, I'm like, Mike is not super tall. So, I'm like, Mike is not super tall. So, I'm like, "Okay, running backs." I'm old enough at "Okay, running backs." I'm old enough at "Okay, running backs." I'm old enough at 10:12 to know I've got to narrow the 10:12 to know I've got to narrow the 10:12 to know I've got to narrow the list to like running backs based on his list to like running backs based on his list to like running backs based on his stature. And we're in Stapleton airport, stature. And we're in Stapleton airport, stature. And we're in Stapleton airport, which back in the day is how you'd get which back in the day is how you'd get which back in the day is how you'd get to Colorado if you didn't fly to Colorado if you didn't fly to Colorado if you didn't fly commercial. And we flew commercial, but commercial. And we flew commercial, but commercial. And we flew commercial, but it was a little puddle jumper. Uh, when it was a little puddle jumper. Uh, when it was a little puddle jumper. Uh, when you fly from Kansas, it's essentially you fly from Kansas, it's essentially you fly from Kansas, it's essentially like not flying commercial. That's a like not flying commercial. That's a like not flying commercial. That's a whole second story. So, we get to whole second story. So, we get to whole second story. So, we get to Stapleton. It's literally me, my Stapleton. It's literally me, my Stapleton. It's literally me, my parents, Mike Tyson, three of his parents, Mike Tyson, three of his parents, Mike Tyson, three of his entourage, and one horse sat working the entourage, and one horse sat working the entourage, and one horse sat working the baggage claim. And he gets to be the guy baggage claim. And he gets to be the guy baggage claim. And he gets to be the guy to tell Mike Tyson they lost his to tell Mike Tyson they lost his to tell Mike Tyson they lost his luggage. And so, my dad sends me away luggage. And so, my dad sends me away luggage. And so, my dad sends me away because Mike starts to throw a fit. He's because Mike starts to throw a fit. He's because Mike starts to throw a fit. He's like jumping up and down on the rotating like jumping up and down on the rotating like jumping up and down on the rotating thing, screaming about his luggage. My thing, screaming about his luggage. My thing, screaming about his luggage. My dad's like, "Okay, this is going to take dad's like, "Okay, this is going to take dad's like, "Okay, this is going to take a turn. Here's some quarters." which is a turn. Here's some quarters." which is a turn. Here's some quarters." which is also another thing that's never also another thing that's never also another thing that's never happened. Here's some quarters. Go play happened. Here's some quarters. Go play happened. Here's some quarters. Go play a game. I'm like kind of running cuz I a game. I'm like kind of running cuz I a game. I'm like kind of running cuz I like I don't want him to change his like I don't want him to change his like I don't want him to change his mind. So, I'm going as fast as I can to mind. So, I'm going as fast as I can to mind. So, I'm going as fast as I can to play that game. And then I overhear the play that game. And then I overhear the play that game. And then I overhear the guy go, "Wait a minute. No. No. You mean guy go, "Wait a minute. No. No. You mean guy go, "Wait a minute. No. No. You mean to tell me I have to go in there and to tell me I have to go in there and to tell me I have to go in there and tell the world heavyweight champion of tell the world heavyweight champion of tell the world heavyweight champion of the world we lost his effing luggage?"

the world we lost his effing luggage?" the world we lost his effing luggage?" No. And so I'm like, "Wait." Boom. No. And so I'm like, "Wait." Boom. No. And so I'm like, "Wait." Boom. Lights go off. I'm sprinting back. I Lights go off. I'm sprinting back. I Lights go off. I'm sprinting back. I didn't get there in time. But apparently didn't get there in time. But apparently didn't get there in time. But apparently they had like a whole episode and they they had like a whole episode and they they had like a whole episode and they had to take him back into the back room. had to take him back into the back room. had to take him back into the back room. And then I see him again in the Denver And then I see him again in the Denver And then I see him again in the Denver airport on the way home. And the funny airport on the way home. And the funny airport on the way home. And the funny bit was when I go to lift up my luggage bit was when I go to lift up my luggage bit was when I go to lift up my luggage in Stapleton. I wasn't strong enough to in Stapleton. I wasn't strong enough to in Stapleton. I wasn't strong enough to get my parents luggage up over the get my parents luggage up over the get my parents luggage up over the thing. And Mike come over it just like thing. And Mike come over it just like thing. And Mike come over it just like with two fingers. He made it absurd, with two fingers. He made it absurd, with two fingers. He made it absurd, right? He made fun of me. He lifts the right? He made fun of me. He lifts the right? He made fun of me. He lifts the thing and he reaches down. He squeezes thing and he reaches down. He squeezes thing and he reaches down. He squeezes my arm and he's like, "You need to eat my arm and he's like, "You need to eat my arm and he's like, "You need to eat your wedies." your wedies." your wedies." So celebrities and cereal. So celebrities and cereal. So celebrities and cereal. >> Yep. Look at that. >> Yep. Look at that. >> Yep. Look at that. >> They just go together. >> They just go together. >> They just go together. >> They come together. Well, let's >> They come together. Well, let's >> They come together. Well, let's transition over to more professional transition over to more professional transition over to more professional topics. What's something going on with topics. What's something going on with topics. What's something going on with you right now that's Spark Toro specific you right now that's Spark Toro specific you right now that's Spark Toro specific that's occupying a lot of your that's occupying a lot of your that's occupying a lot of your attention? attention? attention? >> Let's see. I'm actually I'm about to >> Let's see. I'm actually I'm about to >> Let's see. I'm actually I'm about to hire someone kind of like a chief of hire someone kind of like a chief of hire someone kind of like a chief of staff/exec staff/exec staff/exec assistant person and we're we're assistant person and we're we're assistant person and we're we're building a new a few new features in the building a new a few new features in the building a new a few new features in the product. My co-founder Casey and his product. My co-founder Casey and his product. My co-founder Casey and his family are coming over for dinner family are coming over for dinner family are coming over for dinner tonight. We don't we don't get to see tonight. We don't we don't get to see tonight. We don't we don't get to see them too much so that's kind of special them too much so that's kind of special them too much so that's kind of special and exciting. And we're in the process and exciting. And we're in the process and exciting. And we're in the process of some new research. That's kind of of some new research. That's kind of of some new research. That's kind of cool. So, I have I have this theory, cool. So, I have I have this theory, cool. So, I have I have this theory, Matt, that many people believe that AI Matt, that many people believe that AI Matt, that many people believe that AI tools are taking market share away from tools are taking market share away from tools are taking market share away from Google in the search space. But my Google in the search space. But my Google in the search space. But my theory is that actually the AI media theory is that actually the AI media theory is that actually the AI media hype is masking the fact that Tik Tok, hype is masking the fact that Tik Tok, hype is masking the fact that Tik Tok, Instagram, Reddit, YouTube, and Instagram, Reddit, YouTube, and Instagram, Reddit, YouTube, and Pinterest are taking a larger slice of Pinterest are taking a larger slice of Pinterest are taking a larger slice of search than AI tools are. And so I'm search than AI tools are. And so I'm search than AI tools are. And so I'm going to attempt to prove that with some

going to attempt to prove that with some going to attempt to prove that with some data from our clickstream provider, data from our clickstream provider, data from our clickstream provider, Datos. And so we're in process on that Datos. And so we're in process on that Datos. And so we're in process on that right now to look at essentially right now to look at essentially right now to look at essentially changing growth rates and deltas and how changing growth rates and deltas and how changing growth rates and deltas and how many people are searching on each many people are searching on each many people are searching on each platform per month and that kind of platform per month and that kind of platform per month and that kind of thing. So that that should be exciting thing. So that that should be exciting thing. So that that should be exciting research too. research too. research too. >> That is going to be interesting. I'm >> That is going to be interesting. I'm >> That is going to be interesting. I'm fascinated by the topics that people fascinated by the topics that people fascinated by the topics that people think AI, like for example, everybody think AI, like for example, everybody think AI, like for example, everybody wants to say like, "Oh, it's it's going wants to say like, "Oh, it's it's going wants to say like, "Oh, it's it's going to eat all of your Google search traffic to eat all of your Google search traffic to eat all of your Google search traffic for your brand." But actually, if you're for your brand." But actually, if you're for your brand." But actually, if you're mentioned, there's no link. So, if you mentioned, there's no link. So, if you mentioned, there's no link. So, if you go to Chad GPT and you ask a question go to Chad GPT and you ask a question go to Chad GPT and you ask a question like, "What are the five best products like, "What are the five best products like, "What are the five best products for something?" It'll tell you five for something?" It'll tell you five for something?" It'll tell you five names. Well, you're going to have to names. Well, you're going to have to names. Well, you're going to have to turn around and what most people do, turn around and what most people do, turn around and what most people do, they go into their Chrome bar and that they go into their Chrome bar and that they go into their Chrome bar and that turns into a search. And like turns into a search. And like turns into a search. And like everybody's talking like I actually everybody's talking like I actually everybody's talking like I actually think that part of the reason Google is think that part of the reason Google is think that part of the reason Google is showing everybody that their traffic showing everybody that their traffic showing everybody that their traffic isn't going down is because of this. I isn't going down is because of this. I isn't going down is because of this. I think it probably isn't unless you're think it probably isn't unless you're think it probably isn't unless you're cited and only mentioned there's no link cited and only mentioned there's no link cited and only mentioned there's no link and if you're cited the link isn't and if you're cited the link isn't and if you're cited the link isn't really kind of the primary object really kind of the primary object really kind of the primary object anyways. anyways. anyways. >> Yeah. I think the creative destruction >> Yeah. I think the creative destruction >> Yeah. I think the creative destruction that's happening here is in the value of that's happening here is in the value of that's happening here is in the value of content that is not your brand or not content that is not your brand or not content that is not your brand or not the action that takes place on your the action that takes place on your the action that takes place on your website. So if you over the past 20 25 website. So if you over the past 20 25 website. So if you over the past 20 25 years listen to digital marketers like years listen to digital marketers like years listen to digital marketers like this Jimok then you would have heard me this Jimok then you would have heard me this Jimok then you would have heard me say oh it's really great to produce lots say oh it's really great to produce lots say oh it's really great to produce lots of blog posts on topics that your of blog posts on topics that your of blog posts on topics that your audience cares about. They don't have to audience cares about. They don't have to audience cares about. They don't have to be directly relevant to your brand or be directly relevant to your brand or be directly relevant to your brand or what you sell but you can attract those what you sell but you can attract those what you sell but you can attract those interestbased cohorts of individuals who interestbased cohorts of individuals who interestbased cohorts of individuals who will then sign up for your email will then sign up for your email will then sign up for your email newsletter or subscribe to your website

newsletter or subscribe to your website newsletter or subscribe to your website and then you can slowly nudge them into and then you can slowly nudge them into and then you can slowly nudge them into your audience and then they'll your audience and then they'll your audience and then they'll eventually purchase from you. That is eventually purchase from you. That is eventually purchase from you. That is the part that's really getting the part that's really getting the part that's really getting destroyed. And the other one of course destroyed. And the other one of course destroyed. And the other one of course is the value of media, right? So if is the value of media, right? So if is the value of media, right? So if you're a publisher in virtually any you're a publisher in virtually any you're a publisher in virtually any space, it is next to impossible to drag space, it is next to impossible to drag space, it is next to impossible to drag increasing traffic out of Google search increasing traffic out of Google search increasing traffic out of Google search or the AI tools or any of the social or the AI tools or any of the social or the AI tools or any of the social networks. All of that has declined. networks. All of that has declined. networks. All of that has declined. That's what Amanda Natividad and I call That's what Amanda Natividad and I call That's what Amanda Natividad and I call the the zeroclick world and why the next the the zeroclick world and why the next the the zeroclick world and why the next generation of marketers certainly going generation of marketers certainly going generation of marketers certainly going to have to do zeroclick type of to have to do zeroclick type of to have to do zeroclick type of marketing. Yeah, thought perplexity was marketing. Yeah, thought perplexity was marketing. Yeah, thought perplexity was going to get more traction once going to get more traction once going to get more traction once everybody figured out it was trying to everybody figured out it was trying to everybody figured out it was trying to do a better job at Google than Google do a better job at Google than Google do a better job at Google than Google and Chad GBT wasn't. Right. When I think and Chad GBT wasn't. Right. When I think and Chad GBT wasn't. Right. When I think I I I assumed most people would go, "Oh, I I I assumed most people would go, "Oh, I I I assumed most people would go, "Oh, that's not the mental model I'm used to. that's not the mental model I'm used to. that's not the mental model I'm used to. This is and yet I don't know about This is and yet I don't know about This is and yet I don't know about everybody, but at least for Hunter, for everybody, but at least for Hunter, for everybody, but at least for Hunter, for example, Chad GPT is something like example, Chad GPT is something like example, Chad GPT is something like 90ome% of referred traffic, even though 90ome% of referred traffic, even though 90ome% of referred traffic, even though mentions don't have links." And so, I mentions don't have links." And so, I mentions don't have links." And so, I find that whole thing a little find that whole thing a little find that whole thing a little mindbending right now. My strong theory mindbending right now. My strong theory mindbending right now. My strong theory here is that people who use AI tools here is that people who use AI tools here is that people who use AI tools very rarely want to replace Google.

very rarely want to replace Google. very rarely want to replace Google. Google does an extremely good job of the Google does an extremely good job of the Google does an extremely good job of the thing that you're used to Google doing, thing that you're used to Google doing, thing that you're used to Google doing, which is provide me with links and quick which is provide me with links and quick which is provide me with links and quick information and Paul Rudd age, you know, information and Paul Rudd age, you know, information and Paul Rudd age, you know, right? If you go to an AI tool, you have right? If you go to an AI tool, you have right? If you go to an AI tool, you have to like give it sentences and paragraphs to like give it sentences and paragraphs to like give it sentences and paragraphs of information. And if you go to Google, of information. And if you go to Google, of information. And if you go to Google, you can give it two words and it will you can give it two words and it will you can give it two words and it will generally spit back the thing that you generally spit back the thing that you generally spit back the thing that you want. Even if you didn't type it want. Even if you didn't type it want. Even if you didn't type it correctly, even if you said it wrong, correctly, even if you said it wrong, correctly, even if you said it wrong, they know, right? They figured it out they know, right? They figured it out they know, right? They figured it out from usage patterns. I think that from usage patterns. I think that from usage patterns. I think that perplexity unfortunately was trying to perplexity unfortunately was trying to perplexity unfortunately was trying to solve a problem that very few people solve a problem that very few people solve a problem that very few people have, which is like I am frustrated by have, which is like I am frustrated by have, which is like I am frustrated by the quality quantity style of answers the quality quantity style of answers the quality quantity style of answers that Google provides. But chat GPT and that Google provides. But chat GPT and that Google provides. But chat GPT and Gemini and Claude recognize that most of Gemini and Claude recognize that most of Gemini and Claude recognize that most of what you want is generative tasks. It's what you want is generative tasks. It's what you want is generative tasks. It's not search replacement. It's, hey, not search replacement. It's, hey, not search replacement. It's, hey, design a room in a dungeon for my D and design a room in a dungeon for my D and design a room in a dungeon for my D and D campaign. Hey, double check that this D campaign. Hey, double check that this D campaign. Hey, double check that this test that I wrote for my code for my new test that I wrote for my code for my new test that I wrote for my code for my new software is running properly. Like, hey, software is running properly. Like, hey, software is running properly. Like, hey, go tell me the kinds of variables that I go tell me the kinds of variables that I go tell me the kinds of variables that I can put in PHP and convert from Python.

can put in PHP and convert from Python. can put in PHP and convert from Python. It's all that kind of tasks and those It's all that kind of tasks and those It's all that kind of tasks and those types of tasks Google is no good at. So, types of tasks Google is no good at. So, types of tasks Google is no good at. So, of course, you go somewhere else for of course, you go somewhere else for of course, you go somewhere else for that. Hence the AI tools cla GPT in that. Hence the AI tools cla GPT in that. Hence the AI tools cla GPT in particular dominate time spent, dominate particular dominate time spent, dominate particular dominate time spent, dominate percentage of use. percentage of use. percentage of use. >> Yeah, you know, it's interesting like I >> Yeah, you know, it's interesting like I >> Yeah, you know, it's interesting like I would imagine ChatGpt's metrics are the would imagine ChatGpt's metrics are the would imagine ChatGpt's metrics are the exact opposite. Like as far from exact opposite. Like as far from exact opposite. Like as far from Google's old core metrics as you can Google's old core metrics as you can Google's old core metrics as you can possibly get. It's a really interesting possibly get. It's a really interesting possibly get. It's a really interesting comparison. It's just that marketers and comparison. It's just that marketers and comparison. It's just that marketers and technologists, you know, who are in your technologists, you know, who are in your technologists, you know, who are in your LinkedIn feed, right? And are the LinkedIn feed, right? And are the LinkedIn feed, right? And are the loudest voices. They're the ones who loudest voices. They're the ones who loudest voices. They're the ones who have some motivated reasoning behind why have some motivated reasoning behind why have some motivated reasoning behind why they say, "Oh, Perplexity is going to they say, "Oh, Perplexity is going to they say, "Oh, Perplexity is going to replace Google. Chat GBT is going to replace Google. Chat GBT is going to replace Google. Chat GBT is going to replace Google." Things don't have to replace Google." Things don't have to replace Google." Things don't have to replace things, man. You know what? replace things, man. You know what? replace things, man. You know what? Facebook did not replace Google. I Facebook did not replace Google. I Facebook did not replace Google. I remember I I don't know if you remember, remember I I don't know if you remember, remember I I don't know if you remember, but like 2009, 2010, people were like, but like 2009, 2010, people were like, but like 2009, 2010, people were like, "Oh, Facebook is going to replace "Oh, Facebook is going to replace "Oh, Facebook is going to replace Google. No one's going to search on Google. No one's going to search on Google. No one's going to search on Google anymore when you can figure out Google anymore when you can figure out Google anymore when you can figure out what your friends are doing." Like, no, what your friends are doing." Like, no, what your friends are doing." Like, no, it was just dumb. I think AI is the same it was just dumb. I think AI is the same it was just dumb. I think AI is the same thing. thing. thing. >> Also, none of us want to listen to our >> Also, none of us want to listen to our >> Also, none of us want to listen to our friends on Facebook about what we should friends on Facebook about what we should friends on Facebook about what we should do. Like, come on, let's be honest.

do. Like, come on, let's be honest. do. Like, come on, let's be honest. >> Definitely not in 2025. >> Definitely not in 2025. >> Definitely not in 2025. >> It's the last place you want to get a >> It's the last place you want to get a >> It's the last place you want to get a how-to video. how-to video. how-to video. >> Oh, man. >> Oh, man. >> Oh, man. >> Might as well ask rock. I mean, jeez. >> Might as well ask rock. I mean, jeez. >> Might as well ask rock. I mean, jeez. >> Well, that's a whole other thread, isn't >> Well, that's a whole other thread, isn't >> Well, that's a whole other thread, isn't it? it? it? Dangerous one at that. Dangerous one at that. Dangerous one at that. >> You knew it was going to be spicy when >> You knew it was going to be spicy when >> You knew it was going to be spicy when you tuned in. you tuned in. you tuned in. >> I mean, look, if we're going to go there >> I mean, look, if we're going to go there >> I mean, look, if we're going to go there so early, right? It's uh Yeah. Let's not so early, right? It's uh Yeah. Let's not so early, right? It's uh Yeah. Let's not talk about Grock though because I don't talk about Grock though because I don't talk about Grock though because I don't have good things to say. I do want to have good things to say. I do want to have good things to say. I do want to talk a little bit about something that I talk a little bit about something that I talk a little bit about something that I know you care passionately about. We know you care passionately about. We know you care passionately about. We spend a lot of time focusing on it and I spend a lot of time focusing on it and I spend a lot of time focusing on it and I think it's a great place to kick off think it's a great place to kick off think it's a great place to kick off which is your audience, your ideal which is your audience, your ideal which is your audience, your ideal customer profile. So, as most businesses customer profile. So, as most businesses customer profile. So, as most businesses do, either you started Spork Toro do, either you started Spork Toro do, either you started Spork Toro thinking your customer was one thing and thinking your customer was one thing and thinking your customer was one thing and it turned out to be something else or it it turned out to be something else or it it turned out to be something else or it started as one thing and has evolved started as one thing and has evolved started as one thing and has evolved over time. I'm curious, how does the over time. I'm curious, how does the over time. I'm curious, how does the Spark Toro ideal customer or ideal Spark Toro ideal customer or ideal Spark Toro ideal customer or ideal audience match what you thought it was audience match what you thought it was audience match what you thought it was going to be when you started it? going to be when you started it? going to be when you started it? >> I would say it's not massively different >> I would say it's not massively different >> I would say it's not massively different to who we expected, but the use case is to who we expected, but the use case is to who we expected, but the use case is very different to what we thought people very different to what we thought people very different to what we thought people would do with it. Spark Toro tends to be would do with it. Spark Toro tends to be would do with it. Spark Toro tends to be about I would say 40% consultants and about I would say 40% consultants and about I would say 40% consultants and agencies. Another 30 35% agencies. Another 30 35% agencies. Another 30 35% are in-house marketers at brands and are in-house marketers at brands and are in-house marketers at brands and companies. They tend to be in the companies. They tend to be in the companies. They tend to be in the middle, not the most junior folks, not middle, not the most junior folks, not middle, not the most junior folks, not the CMO or VP, but like middle the CMO or VP, but like middle the CMO or VP, but like middle management or senior individual management or senior individual management or senior individual contributors in marketing universe. And contributors in marketing universe. And contributors in marketing universe. And then there's about 25% that's made up of then there's about 25% that's made up of then there's about 25% that's made up of everyone else. So founders and

everyone else. So founders and everyone else. So founders and entrepreneurs, solo creators, entrepreneurs, solo creators, entrepreneurs, solo creators, researchers, educational use cases are researchers, educational use cases are researchers, educational use cases are quite strong, some government and quite strong, some government and quite strong, some government and nonprofit, that kind of stuff. That's nonprofit, that kind of stuff. That's nonprofit, that kind of stuff. That's not dissimilar to who we thought. Maybe not dissimilar to who we thought. Maybe not dissimilar to who we thought. Maybe we expected that nonprofit government we expected that nonprofit government we expected that nonprofit government edu would be 10% and it turns out it's edu would be 10% and it turns out it's edu would be 10% and it turns out it's 15 or that's all on the margin. What's 15 or that's all on the margin. What's 15 or that's all on the margin. What's really different is we thought people really different is we thought people really different is we thought people would use Far Toro for tactical would use Far Toro for tactical would use Far Toro for tactical marketing improvements. For example, I marketing improvements. For example, I marketing improvements. For example, I am targeting a group of interior am targeting a group of interior am targeting a group of interior designers in the United States uh with designers in the United States uh with designers in the United States uh with my new CAD design program, architectural my new CAD design program, architectural my new CAD design program, architectural design program, and I want to try and design program, and I want to try and design program, and I want to try and take them all away from the products take them all away from the products take them all away from the products they're using now and get my little they're using now and get my little they're using now and get my little startup off the ground. And so I am startup off the ground. And so I am startup off the ground. And so I am going to target media outlets and going to target media outlets and going to target media outlets and YouTubers and podcasts and specific YouTubers and podcasts and specific YouTubers and podcasts and specific search terms and content ideas, search terms and content ideas, search terms and content ideas, whatever. I'm going to build lists of whatever. I'm going to build lists of whatever. I'm going to build lists of those and then I'm going to go through those and then I'm going to go through those and then I'm going to go through and use the data that I got from Spark and use the data that I got from Spark and use the data that I got from Spark Toro to do my outreach and try and pitch Toro to do my outreach and try and pitch Toro to do my outreach and try and pitch people try and get in these shows people try and get in these shows people try and get in these shows whatever that is about 40 maybe as low whatever that is about 40 maybe as low whatever that is about 40 maybe as low as 30% of the use case. So not it's not as 30% of the use case. So not it's not as 30% of the use case. So not it's not no one doing it. People are doing that.

no one doing it. People are doing that. no one doing it. People are doing that. But a huge amount of our use is people But a huge amount of our use is people But a huge amount of our use is people especially consultants and agencies and especially consultants and agencies and especially consultants and agencies and those managers at marketing firms at those managers at marketing firms at those managers at marketing firms at in-house companies using our data in-house companies using our data in-house companies using our data especially the top level like highle especially the top level like highle especially the top level like highle graphs of what people are doing to pitch graphs of what people are doing to pitch graphs of what people are doing to pitch their boss or team or client or board on their boss or team or client or board on their boss or team or client or board on just investing in that marketing channel just investing in that marketing channel just investing in that marketing channel at all. Makes sense. That's the whole at all. Makes sense. That's the whole at all. Makes sense. That's the whole use case. They go to Spark Toro. They use case. They go to Spark Toro. They use case. They go to Spark Toro. They get the overview page. They take a get the overview page. They take a get the overview page. They take a screenshot of the graph, they put it in screenshot of the graph, they put it in screenshot of the graph, they put it in their presentation, ding ding, ding, their presentation, ding ding, ding, their presentation, ding ding, ding, right? Like that's it. Maybe they'll go right? Like that's it. Maybe they'll go right? Like that's it. Maybe they'll go to the the specific page for like to the the specific page for like to the the specific page for like websites or podcasts or whatever and websites or podcasts or whatever and websites or podcasts or whatever and pick out a few to put in the pick out a few to put in the pick out a few to put in the presentation to feature and say like, presentation to feature and say like, presentation to feature and say like, "Look at that, you know, high audience "Look at that, you know, high audience "Look at that, you know, high audience affinity between this customer for us affinity between this customer for us affinity between this customer for us and this particular publication or media and this particular publication or media and this particular publication or media outlet." But they don't use us to like outlet." But they don't use us to like outlet." But they don't use us to like build those tactical lists and do the build those tactical lists and do the build those tactical lists and do the specific outreach. That surprised us specific outreach. That surprised us specific outreach. That surprised us quite a bit. This was kind of a quite a bit. This was kind of a quite a bit. This was kind of a discovery we had last summer through discovery we had last summer through discovery we had last summer through Asia Ranio, who we contracted to do some Asia Ranio, who we contracted to do some Asia Ranio, who we contracted to do some product research for us. And she product research for us. And she product research for us. And she uncovered this finding in her interviews uncovered this finding in her interviews uncovered this finding in her interviews and surveys, presented it to us, and and and surveys, presented it to us, and and and surveys, presented it to us, and and we were like, "Oh crap, we should make we were like, "Oh crap, we should make we were like, "Oh crap, we should make the product way more visual. We should the product way more visual. We should the product way more visual. We should make the charts and graphs like make the charts and graphs like make the charts and graphs like everywhere. We should put the data that everywhere. We should put the data that everywhere. We should put the data that people are trying to screenshot front people are trying to screenshot front people are trying to screenshot front and center instead of making it export and center instead of making it export and center instead of making it export to CSV and then build it yourself in to CSV and then build it yourself in to CSV and then build it yourself in Excel or Google Sheets, right?" Is that Excel or Google Sheets, right?" Is that Excel or Google Sheets, right?" Is that the biggest shift from when you started the biggest shift from when you started the biggest shift from when you started when you think about like the things when you think about like the things when you think about like the things that you've had to do with the product that you've had to do with the product that you've had to do with the product or with your audience or your content?

or with your audience or your content? or with your audience or your content? Is that the biggest shift? Is that the biggest shift? Is that the biggest shift? >> Probably second. It sits behind. You >> Probably second. It sits behind. You >> Probably second. It sits behind. You might remember in the early days, Matt, might remember in the early days, Matt, might remember in the early days, Matt, Spark Toro was built on Twitter data. We Spark Toro was built on Twitter data. We Spark Toro was built on Twitter data. We had data from lots of places, but had data from lots of places, but had data from lots of places, but Twitter was like our primary connector Twitter was like our primary connector Twitter was like our primary connector network. And then this billionaire buys network. And then this billionaire buys network. And then this billionaire buys Twitter. I don't know if you heard about Twitter. I don't know if you heard about Twitter. I don't know if you heard about this. this. this. >> No, tell me more. >> No, tell me more. >> No, tell me more. >> Yeah. Yeah. And when that happened with >> Yeah. Yeah. And when that happened with >> Yeah. Yeah. And when that happened with Spartro, basically the new owner changed Spartro, basically the new owner changed Spartro, basically the new owner changed a lot of how things worked on the a lot of how things worked on the a lot of how things worked on the platform in two ways. One was API access platform in two ways. One was API access platform in two ways. One was API access and data stuff. We could still get it, and data stuff. We could still get it, and data stuff. We could still get it, but it was more a pain in the butt to but it was more a pain in the butt to but it was more a pain in the butt to get the data. More serious than that, get the data. More serious than that, get the data. More serious than that, which made us not even want to go which made us not even want to go which made us not even want to go through the hoops that we had to jump through the hoops that we had to jump through the hoops that we had to jump through to get it was that the culture through to get it was that the culture through to get it was that the culture and usage of the network changed and usage of the network changed and usage of the network changed dramatically. So we monitored hundreds dramatically. So we monitored hundreds dramatically. So we monitored hundreds of millions of tweets every day, right? of millions of tweets every day, right? of millions of tweets every day, right? Like we had a huge feed of all of them. Like we had a huge feed of all of them. Like we had a huge feed of all of them. As an example, you might see that people As an example, you might see that people As an example, you might see that people who are into gardening in the UK would who are into gardening in the UK would who are into gardening in the UK would post on Twitter, not all of them every post on Twitter, not all of them every post on Twitter, not all of them every day, but hundreds of thousands of people day, but hundreds of thousands of people day, but hundreds of thousands of people who lived in the UK who were into who lived in the UK who were into who lived in the UK who were into gardening would talk about the flowers gardening would talk about the flowers gardening would talk about the flowers that were growing in their yard or that were growing in their yard or that were growing in their yard or whatever techniques for soil irrigation whatever techniques for soil irrigation whatever techniques for soil irrigation they had. All this kind of like detailed they had. All this kind of like detailed they had. All this kind of like detailed topic conversation. And with the new topic conversation. And with the new topic conversation. And with the new Twitter, like under new ownership, even Twitter, like under new ownership, even Twitter, like under new ownership, even in those first few months after Musk in those first few months after Musk in those first few months after Musk took over, we could see that basically took over, we could see that basically took over, we could see that basically that type of conversation was ending.

that type of conversation was ending. that type of conversation was ending. people who were presumably still into people who were presumably still into people who were presumably still into gardening in the UK had stopped talking gardening in the UK had stopped talking gardening in the UK had stopped talking about their gardens and that hobby. about their gardens and that hobby. about their gardens and that hobby. People who were into biking stopped People who were into biking stopped People who were into biking stopped talking about biking. People who were talking about biking. People who were talking about biking. People who were into painting stopped talking about into painting stopped talking about into painting stopped talking about painting. People who were into software painting. People who were into software painting. People who were into software as a service, you know, marketing, as a service, you know, marketing, as a service, you know, marketing, stopped talking about that. And stopped talking about that. And stopped talking about that. And everything sort of shifted toward everything sort of shifted toward everything sort of shifted toward political and social issues. political and social issues. political and social issues. Essentially, the conversation switched Essentially, the conversation switched Essentially, the conversation switched almost entirely to a cage match fight almost entirely to a cage match fight almost entirely to a cage match fight between political and social viewpoints. between political and social viewpoints. between political and social viewpoints. And that's not useful data for marketers And that's not useful data for marketers And that's not useful data for marketers unless you're running an election unless you're running an election unless you're running an election campaign. Like not helpful at all. And campaign. Like not helpful at all. And campaign. Like not helpful at all. And so when we saw this in those first 90 so when we saw this in those first 90 so when we saw this in those first 90 days, we Casey and I were like, "Oh, we days, we Casey and I were like, "Oh, we days, we Casey and I were like, "Oh, we we have to switch. Like we can't use our we have to switch. Like we can't use our we have to switch. Like we can't use our primary data source anymore. We're going primary data source anymore. We're going primary data source anymore. We're going to have to go acquire new kinds of to have to go acquire new kinds of to have to go acquire new kinds of data." And we investigated a bunch of data." And we investigated a bunch of data." And we investigated a bunch of sources and looked at a bunch of sources and looked at a bunch of sources and looked at a bunch of possibilities and and basically settled possibilities and and basically settled possibilities and and basically settled on clickstream data as being the on clickstream data as being the on clickstream data as being the foundation of the new version of the foundation of the new version of the foundation of the new version of the product. That was the biggest switch. It product. That was the biggest switch. It product. That was the biggest switch. It took almost a year to rebuild the took almost a year to rebuild the took almost a year to rebuild the product from scratch, make it useful product from scratch, make it useful product from scratch, make it useful enough to the people who had been using enough to the people who had been using enough to the people who had been using it that they wanted to continue using it it that they wanted to continue using it it that they wanted to continue using it and also appeal to a new audience of and also appeal to a new audience of and also appeal to a new audience of people so that we could attract them.

people so that we could attract them. people so that we could attract them. Very chopped. Like for a few months Very chopped. Like for a few months Very chopped. Like for a few months there we we worried we wouldn't have a there we we worried we wouldn't have a there we we worried we wouldn't have a company, you know, scary. company, you know, scary. company, you know, scary. >> Yeah. So let's talk a little bit about >> Yeah. So let's talk a little bit about >> Yeah. So let's talk a little bit about that time you started a company. At some that time you started a company. At some that time you started a company. At some point you've reached an existential point you've reached an existential point you've reached an existential crisis moment, but nobody gets to really crisis moment, but nobody gets to really crisis moment, but nobody gets to really peek behind the curtain at how others peek behind the curtain at how others peek behind the curtain at how others handle those existential moments. I'm handle those existential moments. I'm handle those existential moments. I'm interested. What did you guys do? Did interested. What did you guys do? Did interested. What did you guys do? Did you have a process to follow? Tell me you have a process to follow? Tell me you have a process to follow? Tell me the story. The story is I remember the the story. The story is I remember the the story. The story is I remember the the day we've been sort of doing some the day we've been sort of doing some the day we've been sort of doing some rough analysis. We had some concerns, rough analysis. We had some concerns, rough analysis. We had some concerns, but I remember I was on vacation with but I remember I was on vacation with but I remember I was on vacation with some friends in Wajaka, which is some friends in Wajaka, which is some friends in Wajaka, which is southern Mexico, and I'd never been to southern Mexico, and I'd never been to southern Mexico, and I'd never been to Mexico before. It was the first time Mexico before. It was the first time Mexico before. It was the first time there. Beautiful. But we were we were there. Beautiful. But we were we were there. Beautiful. But we were we were way out in the desert. Like we were way out in the desert. Like we were way out in the desert. Like we were driving from the city center out to a driving from the city center out to a driving from the city center out to a Mscaleria, right, where they where they Mscaleria, right, where they where they Mscaleria, right, where they where they make me mazcal the beverage. And I had make me mazcal the beverage. And I had make me mazcal the beverage. And I had no reception, but I could see a bunch of no reception, but I could see a bunch of no reception, but I could see a bunch of panicked texts and emails from my panicked texts and emails from my panicked texts and emails from my co-founder from Casey that like things co-founder from Casey that like things co-founder from Casey that like things were imploding. Things were getting were imploding. Things were getting were imploding. Things were getting increasingly terrible and and it was increasingly terrible and and it was increasingly terrible and and it was because like some of this analysis had because like some of this analysis had because like some of this analysis had been completed and he was like, "We're been completed and he was like, "We're been completed and he was like, "We're done. Like we're sunk in 6 months. This done. Like we're sunk in 6 months. This done. Like we're sunk in 6 months. This data will be useless to our customers."

data will be useless to our customers." data will be useless to our customers." All that kind of stuff, right? And yeah, All that kind of stuff, right? And yeah, All that kind of stuff, right? And yeah, I remember we had a a phone call from a I remember we had a a phone call from a I remember we had a a phone call from a a gas station like 80 miles outside of a gas station like 80 miles outside of a gas station like 80 miles outside of Waka in the middle of the middle of Waka in the middle of the middle of Waka in the middle of the middle of desert, right? And afterwards, I was was desert, right? And afterwards, I was was desert, right? And afterwards, I was was almost like a vomit inducing Yeah. almost like a vomit inducing Yeah. almost like a vomit inducing Yeah. existential crisis, like how are we existential crisis, like how are we existential crisis, like how are we going to do anything? We, you know, we going to do anything? We, you know, we going to do anything? We, you know, we couldn't come up with ideas on the fly, couldn't come up with ideas on the fly, couldn't come up with ideas on the fly, like on the phone call of what we could like on the phone call of what we could like on the phone call of what we could do, any ideas that either of us had. The do, any ideas that either of us had. The do, any ideas that either of us had. The other one was like, no, that'll never other one was like, no, that'll never other one was like, no, that'll never work. And so it just became an iterative work. And so it just became an iterative work. And so it just became an iterative process over the next probably two or process over the next probably two or process over the next probably two or three months of us getting together on three months of us getting together on three months of us getting together on calls and over emails and I tapped a calls and over emails and I tapped a calls and over emails and I tapped a bunch of people in my network to try and bunch of people in my network to try and bunch of people in my network to try and ask them about potential solutions and ask them about potential solutions and ask them about potential solutions and we ran some tests with some clickstream we ran some tests with some clickstream we ran some tests with some clickstream data eventually after landing on that as data eventually after landing on that as data eventually after landing on that as a potential idea. We had first a potential idea. We had first a potential idea. We had first investigated YouTube as being like a investigated YouTube as being like a investigated YouTube as being like a primary connector network. We hoped that primary connector network. We hoped that primary connector network. We hoped that would work. It doesn't work. not enough would work. It doesn't work. not enough would work. It doesn't work. not enough people are on YouTube and the the people are on YouTube and the the people are on YouTube and the the creator system there is too topheavy. It creator system there is too topheavy. It creator system there is too topheavy. It didn't go down into the the details of didn't go down into the the details of didn't go down into the the details of like what do hundreds of thousands and like what do hundreds of thousands and like what do hundreds of thousands and millions of people do and want and yeah millions of people do and want and yeah millions of people do and want and yeah I would say it was a quite unstructured I would say it was a quite unstructured I would say it was a quite unstructured process until we finally settled on hey process until we finally settled on hey process until we finally settled on hey we're going to try this experiment with we're going to try this experiment with we're going to try this experiment with clickstream and then that started to clickstream and then that started to clickstream and then that started to look promising and eventually became the look promising and eventually became the look promising and eventually became the solution but let me tell you incredibly solution but let me tell you incredibly solution but let me tell you incredibly stressful and you know we had I think stressful and you know we had I think stressful and you know we had I think 1500 paying subscribers at the time 1500 paying subscribers at the time 1500 paying subscribers at the time right whose data was degrading every day right whose data was degrading every day right whose data was degrading every day Just awful, awful feeling.

Just awful, awful feeling. Just awful, awful feeling. >> How much before the customers did you >> How much before the customers did you >> How much before the customers did you guys figure out that this was going to guys figure out that this was going to guys figure out that this was going to be a problem? Was it almost simultaneous be a problem? Was it almost simultaneous be a problem? Was it almost simultaneous or were you guys out ahead of this by at or were you guys out ahead of this by at or were you guys out ahead of this by at least a month or so? Thank god we were least a month or so? Thank god we were least a month or so? Thank god we were out ahead of it probably by 6 to9 out ahead of it probably by 6 to9 out ahead of it probably by 6 to9 months. That's great. Yeah, we noticed months. That's great. Yeah, we noticed months. That's great. Yeah, we noticed the shift happening, but our customers the shift happening, but our customers the shift happening, but our customers continue to have essentially useful data continue to have essentially useful data continue to have essentially useful data because people's habits and interests because people's habits and interests because people's habits and interests and proclivities especially around niche and proclivities especially around niche and proclivities especially around niche interests, hobbies, like if you're into interests, hobbies, like if you're into interests, hobbies, like if you're into men's fashion or you're into buying men's fashion or you're into buying men's fashion or you're into buying drones or you're into, you know, you're drones or you're into, you know, you're drones or you're into, you know, you're a real estate agent who sells commercial a real estate agent who sells commercial a real estate agent who sells commercial properties in California, that rarely properties in California, that rarely properties in California, that rarely changes in the course of 6 months or a changes in the course of 6 months or a changes in the course of 6 months or a year. And so the data was still pretty year. And so the data was still pretty year. And so the data was still pretty darn good, maybe 80% good 12 months darn good, maybe 80% good 12 months darn good, maybe 80% good 12 months after the shift happened on Twitter. after the shift happened on Twitter. after the shift happened on Twitter. Like it's still pretty darn useful if Like it's still pretty darn useful if Like it's still pretty darn useful if you analyzed year old data. It it didn't you analyzed year old data. It it didn't you analyzed year old data. It it didn't change all that much. That was the like change all that much. That was the like change all that much. That was the like thank god, but it was degrading by the thank god, but it was degrading by the thank god, but it was degrading by the day. And we knew that and and you could day. And we knew that and and you could day. And we knew that and and you could see it in our stats, right? I think I see it in our stats, right? I think I see it in our stats, right? I think I want to say Musk bought Twitter in want to say Musk bought Twitter in want to say Musk bought Twitter in November of 2022 November of 2022 November of 2022 and by March of 23, March of 23 was and by March of 23, March of 23 was and by March of 23, March of 23 was basically our high point at Spark Toro.

basically our high point at Spark Toro. basically our high point at Spark Toro. Like that was the we'd been growing Like that was the we'd been growing Like that was the we'd been growing steadily since 2020 when we launched. steadily since 2020 when we launched. steadily since 2020 when we launched. We'd hit this high point. Then we kind We'd hit this high point. Then we kind We'd hit this high point. Then we kind of plateaued and started to slowly of plateaued and started to slowly of plateaued and started to slowly decline for a year and a half. We decline for a year and a half. We decline for a year and a half. We released the the new version, made these released the the new version, made these released the the new version, made these updates. Now we've had for the first updates. Now we've had for the first updates. Now we've had for the first time like in the last three months we've time like in the last three months we've time like in the last three months we've had like you know going up so turned had like you know going up so turned had like you know going up so turned around. Yeah. around. Yeah. around. Yeah. >> Congrats. That's a great feeling. But oh >> Congrats. That's a great feeling. But oh >> Congrats. That's a great feeling. But oh man, great feeling. Oh my goodness. The man, great feeling. Oh my goodness. The man, great feeling. Oh my goodness. The last 100 days have been like woohoo. last 100 days have been like woohoo. last 100 days have been like woohoo. Wow. I'm just like putting myself in Wow. I'm just like putting myself in Wow. I'm just like putting myself in your shoes and I'm trying to think your shoes and I'm trying to think your shoes and I'm trying to think through such a massive industry shift. through such a massive industry shift. through such a massive industry shift. Partly I'm responding to the fact that I Partly I'm responding to the fact that I Partly I'm responding to the fact that I remember very early adopter on Twitter, remember very early adopter on Twitter, remember very early adopter on Twitter, was a very active user for a very long was a very active user for a very long was a very active user for a very long time. I kept my original account for time. I kept my original account for time. I kept my original account for years because I was just like honestly I years because I was just like honestly I years because I was just like honestly I was a little proud of being an OG. I was a little proud of being an OG. I was a little proud of being an OG. I think I was there six months in. I'm think I was there six months in. I'm think I was there six months in. I'm like that feels like at that time that like that feels like at that time that like that feels like at that time that was pretty cool. And it's not like I was was pretty cool. And it's not like I was was pretty cool. And it's not like I was hugely active. But in those early days, hugely active. But in those early days, hugely active. But in those early days, I mean especially if you're in the I mean especially if you're in the I mean especially if you're in the marketing space like it was like the marketing space like it was like the marketing space like it was like the best place. Yeah. It could make careers, best place. Yeah. It could make careers, best place. Yeah. It could make careers, right? Like it connected me with right? Like it connected me with right? Like it connected me with thousands of people who I know and like thousands of people who I know and like thousands of people who I know and like today. It built a lot of my reputation.

today. It built a lot of my reputation. today. It built a lot of my reputation. It was a huge part of Spark Toro's first It was a huge part of Spark Toro's first It was a huge part of Spark Toro's first two three years of marketing. It was how two three years of marketing. It was how two three years of marketing. It was how I got invited to conferences and events. I got invited to conferences and events. I got invited to conferences and events. It was how I distributed my research. It It was how I distributed my research. It It was how I distributed my research. It was how I got a lot of traffic to my was how I got a lot of traffic to my was how I got a lot of traffic to my blog posts. I put videos up there, you blog posts. I put videos up there, you blog posts. I put videos up there, you know, like it was huge. That actor know, like it was huge. That actor know, like it was huge. That actor friend I mentioned at the start, we friend I mentioned at the start, we friend I mentioned at the start, we first connected on Twitter. So like all first connected on Twitter. So like all first connected on Twitter. So like all this stuff just it was a beautiful this stuff just it was a beautiful this stuff just it was a beautiful ecosystem. It had its problems. ecosystem. It had its problems. ecosystem. It had its problems. Absolutely. So yeah, there was that Absolutely. So yeah, there was that Absolutely. So yeah, there was that tragedy, but I had like half a million tragedy, but I had like half a million tragedy, but I had like half a million followers there, right? So I lost like followers there, right? So I lost like followers there, right? So I lost like it really really lost out. it really really lost out. it really really lost out. >> Wow. Yeah, that's a lot. So, first off, >> Wow. Yeah, that's a lot. So, first off, >> Wow. Yeah, that's a lot. So, first off, I felt the change happened much faster. I felt the change happened much faster. I felt the change happened much faster. Like you were saying something like Like you were saying something like Like you were saying something like November was when the purchase happened. November was when the purchase happened. November was when the purchase happened. I feel like by definitely that first I feel like by definitely that first I feel like by definitely that first quarter, maybe even the end of Q1, I quarter, maybe even the end of Q1, I quarter, maybe even the end of Q1, I didn't go. I just wouldn't go on didn't go. I just wouldn't go on didn't go. I just wouldn't go on anymore. anymore. anymore. >> No, the conversation had shifted for >> No, the conversation had shifted for >> No, the conversation had shifted for sure. That's what we saw in our data. sure. That's what we saw in our data. sure. That's what we saw in our data. And so then we knew we had like this And so then we knew we had like this And so then we knew we had like this ticking time bomb of when will this ticking time bomb of when will this ticking time bomb of when will this information no longer be useful to information no longer be useful to information no longer be useful to customers? And we had to artificially customers? And we had to artificially customers? And we had to artificially cut it off. We basically were like, cut it off. We basically were like, cut it off. We basically were like, "Okay, no, no new data ingestion after I "Okay, no, no new data ingestion after I "Okay, no, no new data ingestion after I think it was like March of 23." At think it was like March of 23." At think it was like March of 23." At Hunter saw the ability to transition and Hunter saw the ability to transition and Hunter saw the ability to transition and to have as much lead time to manage that to have as much lead time to manage that to have as much lead time to manage that transition as possible. We saw something transition as possible. We saw something transition as possible. We saw something very similar because about 2 years ago very similar because about 2 years ago very similar because about 2 years ago roughly give or take agencies, marketing roughly give or take agencies, marketing roughly give or take agencies, marketing agencies started to shift towards this agencies started to shift towards this agencies started to shift towards this new model of doing data which was a data new model of doing data which was a data new model of doing data which was a data waterfall process. And there were waterfall process. And there were waterfall process. And there were products that were coming into the products that were coming into the products that were coming into the market like Clay that had enabled this market like Clay that had enabled this market like Clay that had enabled this kind of workflow where they were either

kind of workflow where they were either kind of workflow where they were either using whatever they thought was the best using whatever they thought was the best using whatever they thought was the best one at the time or they built their own one at the time or they built their own one at the time or they built their own tooling to kind of run a pipeline of tooling to kind of run a pipeline of tooling to kind of run a pipeline of data providers through a process to try data providers through a process to try data providers through a process to try to figure out the ultimate. Well, that to figure out the ultimate. Well, that to figure out the ultimate. Well, that was a completely new paradigm for was a completely new paradigm for was a completely new paradigm for products to be able to offer this. And products to be able to offer this. And products to be able to offer this. And so you can imagine marketing agencies so you can imagine marketing agencies so you can imagine marketing agencies would be a fairly sizable percentage of would be a fairly sizable percentage of would be a fairly sizable percentage of the customer base for Hunter. being able the customer base for Hunter. being able the customer base for Hunter. being able to identify that as early as possible. to identify that as early as possible. to identify that as early as possible. You know, this is one of the reasons why You know, this is one of the reasons why You know, this is one of the reasons why we talk about customer base and ICP a we talk about customer base and ICP a we talk about customer base and ICP a lot on Outfox is that we saw that change lot on Outfox is that we saw that change lot on Outfox is that we saw that change happening. We saw it coming. It's not happening. We saw it coming. It's not happening. We saw it coming. It's not like you lose an enterprise customer like you lose an enterprise customer like you lose an enterprise customer when this happens, which is painful, or when this happens, which is painful, or when this happens, which is painful, or you miss the mark on a feature release, you miss the mark on a feature release, you miss the mark on a feature release, also painful. But when an entire segment also painful. But when an entire segment also painful. But when an entire segment of your customer population completely of your customer population completely of your customer population completely changes the way they do what you do or a changes the way they do what you do or a changes the way they do what you do or a platform that they use completely platform that they use completely platform that they use completely changes, that's sizable. And that is changes, that's sizable. And that is changes, that's sizable. And that is something that if you don't have some something that if you don't have some something that if you don't have some advanced notice, you may not make it. advanced notice, you may not make it. advanced notice, you may not make it. And also fallbacks, right? Like you need And also fallbacks, right? Like you need And also fallbacks, right? Like you need diversity of channels, diversity of diversity of channels, diversity of diversity of channels, diversity of options, diversity of data sources. It's options, diversity of data sources. It's options, diversity of data sources. It's so critical, especially as a independent so critical, especially as a independent so critical, especially as a independent startup with not hundreds of millions of startup with not hundreds of millions of startup with not hundreds of millions of dollars in revenue that you're able to dollars in revenue that you're able to dollars in revenue that you're able to say, oh, okay, this data source is gone.

say, oh, okay, this data source is gone. say, oh, okay, this data source is gone. This this customer group has changed This this customer group has changed This this customer group has changed their behavior. This platform where we their behavior. This platform where we their behavior. This platform where we used to get tons of marketing channel used to get tons of marketing channel used to get tons of marketing channel value is gone. What's next? like what value is gone. What's next? like what value is gone. What's next? like what other channels have we invested in? What other channels have we invested in? What other channels have we invested in? What other data sources do we have? What other data sources do we have? What other data sources do we have? What other customers could we serve with our other customers could we serve with our other customers could we serve with our product? If it's not something you've product? If it's not something you've product? If it's not something you've planned for, oh man, you're you're just planned for, oh man, you're you're just planned for, oh man, you're you're just sunk. sunk. sunk. Today's episode is brought to you by Today's episode is brought to you by Today's episode is brought to you by hunter.io. hunter.io. hunter.io. Finding the right email address for your Finding the right email address for your Finding the right email address for your leads can take hours, but with Hunter, leads can take hours, but with Hunter, leads can take hours, but with Hunter, you can go from search to send in you can go from search to send in you can go from search to send in minutes. Get started for free with minutes. Get started for free with minutes. Get started for free with Hunter's verified data, lead management, Hunter's verified data, lead management, Hunter's verified data, lead management, and email marketing tools by visiting and email marketing tools by visiting and email marketing tools by visiting www.hunter.io. >> Yeah. Did you have a mechanism in place >> Yeah. Did you have a mechanism in place as like an early warning or an early not as like an early warning or an early not as like an early warning or an early not because of this specific thing because because of this specific thing because because of this specific thing because obviously you wouldn't have known. I obviously you wouldn't have known. I obviously you wouldn't have known. I will tell you right now, we think about will tell you right now, we think about will tell you right now, we think about this a lot with LinkedIn. LinkedIn sends this a lot with LinkedIn. LinkedIn sends this a lot with LinkedIn. LinkedIn sends 60 maybe 70% of all our leads right now. 60 maybe 70% of all our leads right now. 60 maybe 70% of all our leads right now. >> That's huge. Yeah, >> That's huge. Yeah, >> That's huge. Yeah, >> that's a huge risk vector for the >> that's a huge risk vector for the >> that's a huge risk vector for the business, right? If something were to business, right? If something were to business, right? If something were to happen where, you know, Amanda and I and happen where, you know, Amanda and I and happen where, you know, Amanda and I and the Smart Tour account no longer get the Smart Tour account no longer get the Smart Tour account no longer get traction on LinkedIn, we get banned from traction on LinkedIn, we get banned from traction on LinkedIn, we get banned from it, LinkedIn changes how feeds work, any it, LinkedIn changes how feeds work, any it, LinkedIn changes how feeds work, any of those things, right? That is tons of of those things, right? That is tons of of those things, right? That is tons of risk for how we acquire basically new risk for how we acquire basically new risk for how we acquire basically new customers, new new free accounts, how we customers, new new free accounts, how we customers, new new free accounts, how we distribute our message. It's way tougher distribute our message. It's way tougher distribute our message. It's way tougher to stand out in people's inboxes now.

to stand out in people's inboxes now. to stand out in people's inboxes now. It's way tougher to get a blog post to It's way tougher to get a blog post to It's way tougher to get a blog post to do significant traffic because of all do significant traffic because of all do significant traffic because of all the zeroclick things we talked about. the zeroclick things we talked about. the zeroclick things we talked about. But native content on LinkedIn performs But native content on LinkedIn performs But native content on LinkedIn performs extraordinarily well for us. Like that extraordinarily well for us. Like that extraordinarily well for us. Like that is a network that's basically replaced is a network that's basically replaced is a network that's basically replaced Twitter for Amanda and I. And oof, you Twitter for Amanda and I. And oof, you Twitter for Amanda and I. And oof, you know, high risk. It is. And you're right know, high risk. It is. And you're right know, high risk. It is. And you're right though. It feels like a lot of the though. It feels like a lot of the though. It feels like a lot of the business Twitter verse just shifted all business Twitter verse just shifted all business Twitter verse just shifted all of that energy onto LinkedIn and that's of that energy onto LinkedIn and that's of that energy onto LinkedIn and that's now I'm sure a major crisis for now I'm sure a major crisis for now I'm sure a major crisis for LinkedIn. Like what a strategic problem LinkedIn. Like what a strategic problem LinkedIn. Like what a strategic problem to have that your business network gold to have that your business network gold to have that your business network gold mine. You essentially can't integrate it mine. You essentially can't integrate it mine. You essentially can't integrate it with any of your business tools because with any of your business tools because with any of your business tools because as soon as you do the focus of the as soon as you do the focus of the as soon as you do the focus of the platform becomes totally different and platform becomes totally different and platform becomes totally different and now it's going to cause everybody to now it's going to cause everybody to now it's going to cause everybody to rethink their behavior on that. It's a rethink their behavior on that. It's a rethink their behavior on that. It's a funny problem to have. funny problem to have. funny problem to have. >> Yeah. Yeah, it is. I will say this. I >> Yeah. Yeah, it is. I will say this. I >> Yeah. Yeah, it is. I will say this. I wish it were still independent from wish it were still independent from wish it were still independent from Microsoft. Not that Microsoft's a Microsoft. Not that Microsoft's a Microsoft. Not that Microsoft's a terrible owner. As big corporations go, terrible owner. As big corporations go, terrible owner. As big corporations go, they're one of the more responsible, they're one of the more responsible, they're one of the more responsible, trustworthy ones with like generally not trustworthy ones with like generally not trustworthy ones with like generally not that terrible practices, at least for that terrible practices, at least for that terrible practices, at least for their users and customers. I I wouldn't their users and customers. I I wouldn't their users and customers. I I wouldn't want to compete with them. But I think want to compete with them. But I think want to compete with them. But I think that the frustrating part, and this is that the frustrating part, and this is that the frustrating part, and this is this is one of the reasons that I wish this is one of the reasons that I wish this is one of the reasons that I wish antitrust in the United States was just antitrust in the United States was just antitrust in the United States was just way more serious, right? Like an way more serious, right? Like an way more serious, right? Like an independent Instagram, an independent independent Instagram, an independent independent Instagram, an independent Twitter, an independent LinkedIn, what a Twitter, an independent LinkedIn, what a Twitter, an independent LinkedIn, what a difference that would make, right?

difference that would make, right? difference that would make, right? instead of WhatsApp that it's not great instead of WhatsApp that it's not great instead of WhatsApp that it's not great that Facebook owns that too. There's that Facebook owns that too. There's that Facebook owns that too. There's just a lot of risk and frustration. I just a lot of risk and frustration. I just a lot of risk and frustration. I think um Lena Khan, who was the previous think um Lena Khan, who was the previous think um Lena Khan, who was the previous director of the FTC under the Biden director of the FTC under the Biden director of the FTC under the Biden administration, who I think was an a administration, who I think was an a administration, who I think was an a superb advocate for antitrust action and superb advocate for antitrust action and superb advocate for antitrust action and and basically breaking up monopolies and and basically breaking up monopolies and and basically breaking up monopolies and keeping monopoly power from destroying keeping monopoly power from destroying keeping monopoly power from destroying economic opportunity in the US and economic opportunity in the US and economic opportunity in the US and around the world. She had a great little around the world. She had a great little around the world. She had a great little segment on John Stewart that I encourage segment on John Stewart that I encourage segment on John Stewart that I encourage anyone to watch. You'll learn a lot anyone to watch. You'll learn a lot anyone to watch. You'll learn a lot about basically practices that big about basically practices that big about basically practices that big companies engage in to stifle companies engage in to stifle companies engage in to stifle competition and how it harms almost competition and how it harms almost competition and how it harms almost every business. Like if you're listening every business. Like if you're listening every business. Like if you're listening to this podcast, you are probably being to this podcast, you are probably being to this podcast, you are probably being hurt by monopoly power, even if you hurt by monopoly power, even if you hurt by monopoly power, even if you don't realize it. And it's not a great don't realize it. And it's not a great don't realize it. And it's not a great thing, right? True in the AI world, too. thing, right? True in the AI world, too. thing, right? True in the AI world, too. You're talking about topics. What it You're talking about topics. What it You're talking about topics. What it means is that I'm not the only one means is that I'm not the only one means is that I'm not the only one sitting around constantly crunching sitting around constantly crunching sitting around constantly crunching these thoughts. these thoughts. these thoughts. >> Absolutely not. No. like we have fewer >> Absolutely not. No. like we have fewer >> Absolutely not. No. like we have fewer and fewer marketing channels as and fewer marketing channels as and fewer marketing channels as businesses. If you go B2B, like B2B has businesses. If you go B2B, like B2B has businesses. If you go B2B, like B2B has fewer and fewer channels. LinkedIn is fewer and fewer channels. LinkedIn is fewer and fewer channels. LinkedIn is now a choke point for a lot of people now a choke point for a lot of people now a choke point for a lot of people in, you know, especially given what in, you know, especially given what in, you know, especially given what we've seen happen in social media.

we've seen happen in social media. we've seen happen in social media. Everybody wants to wall those gardens Everybody wants to wall those gardens Everybody wants to wall those gardens off, which means the data is, you know, off, which means the data is, you know, off, which means the data is, you know, attribution gets harder to do. So, I'm attribution gets harder to do. So, I'm attribution gets harder to do. So, I'm constantly thinking about the fact that constantly thinking about the fact that constantly thinking about the fact that like you got to assume at this point like you got to assume at this point like you got to assume at this point there's not a lot of growth of new there's not a lot of growth of new there's not a lot of growth of new channels, although maybe, but we haven't channels, although maybe, but we haven't channels, although maybe, but we haven't seen it. All we saw out of the social seen it. All we saw out of the social seen it. All we saw out of the social move was essentially consolidation. And move was essentially consolidation. And move was essentially consolidation. And so you think about this when it comes to so you think about this when it comes to so you think about this when it comes to entrepreneurship, the way you've entrepreneurship, the way you've entrepreneurship, the way you've experienced it, the way I've experienced experienced it, the way I've experienced experienced it, the way I've experienced it, it's changing, right? The idea of it, it's changing, right? The idea of it, it's changing, right? The idea of how I get my first customer, how I get how I get my first customer, how I get how I get my first customer, how I get my first hundred customers, in a lot of my first hundred customers, in a lot of my first hundred customers, in a lot of ways is getting harder. It's not as if ways is getting harder. It's not as if ways is getting harder. It's not as if tomorrow this is an impossible problem. tomorrow this is an impossible problem. tomorrow this is an impossible problem. It's that tomorrow it's a completely It's that tomorrow it's a completely It's that tomorrow it's a completely different problem. And I find that's the different problem. And I find that's the different problem. And I find that's the interesting thing. And I constantly am interesting thing. And I constantly am interesting thing. And I constantly am chewing on this cuz I'm like, how do you chewing on this cuz I'm like, how do you chewing on this cuz I'm like, how do you diversify channels? Let's say you're one diversify channels? Let's say you're one diversify channels? Let's say you're one of the businesses, this will be near and of the businesses, this will be near and of the businesses, this will be near and dear to both of our hearts, who's trying dear to both of our hearts, who's trying dear to both of our hearts, who's trying to use SEO as a way to grow their to use SEO as a way to grow their to use SEO as a way to grow their business or they're or that's the business or they're or that's the business or they're or that's the playbook they're used to or familiar playbook they're used to or familiar playbook they're used to or familiar with, right? Right now to the next 12 with, right? Right now to the next 12 with, right? Right now to the next 12 months, months, months, this is going to be something that this is going to be something that this is going to be something that they're going to have to reckon with.

they're going to have to reckon with. they're going to have to reckon with. And I'm wondering like how did you get And I'm wondering like how did you get And I'm wondering like how did you get your first customer? Like actually just your first customer? Like actually just your first customer? Like actually just talk to the audience a little bit. If talk to the audience a little bit. If talk to the audience a little bit. If you are thinking about that first you are thinking about that first you are thinking about that first customer or that first 10 or 100, what customer or that first 10 or 100, what customer or that first 10 or 100, what advice would you give people now with so advice would you give people now with so advice would you give people now with so much channel consolidation happening? I much channel consolidation happening? I much channel consolidation happening? I think that the big piece of advice think that the big piece of advice think that the big piece of advice that's different from let's say 10 years that's different from let's say 10 years that's different from let's say 10 years ago, maybe even five, but really 10 is ago, maybe even five, but really 10 is ago, maybe even five, but really 10 is you need to be thoughtfully aware of how you need to be thoughtfully aware of how you need to be thoughtfully aware of how these platforms have changed. So, if you these platforms have changed. So, if you these platforms have changed. So, if you grew up in the era of Google sends a ton grew up in the era of Google sends a ton grew up in the era of Google sends a ton of traffic out, you can post tweets and of traffic out, you can post tweets and of traffic out, you can post tweets and get people to pay attention to you that get people to pay attention to you that get people to pay attention to you that way. You can relatively easily build a way. You can relatively easily build a way. You can relatively easily build a successful YouTube channel. You can successful YouTube channel. You can successful YouTube channel. You can quickly get traction on a Reddit or or a quickly get traction on a Reddit or or a quickly get traction on a Reddit or or a LinkedIn or those kinds of places. LinkedIn or those kinds of places. LinkedIn or those kinds of places. Competition in all those places has Competition in all those places has Competition in all those places has gotten way more difficult. And all of gotten way more difficult. And all of gotten way more difficult. And all of those platforms have new preferences, those platforms have new preferences, those platforms have new preferences, new algorithmic systems that bias new algorithmic systems that bias new algorithmic systems that bias against linking out. And so if you want against linking out. And so if you want against linking out. And so if you want to attract customers in those places, to attract customers in those places, to attract customers in those places, which is still very possible, you need which is still very possible, you need which is still very possible, you need to treat them the way advertising to treat them the way advertising to treat them the way advertising agencies in 1965 treated billboards on agencies in 1965 treated billboards on agencies in 1965 treated billboards on the highway. I'm 100% serious, right?

the highway. I'm 100% serious, right? the highway. I'm 100% serious, right? Like they know when you drive you you Like they know when you drive you you Like they know when you drive you you drive by a billboard and you see a sign drive by a billboard and you see a sign drive by a billboard and you see a sign that says, you know, drink Coca-Cola that says, you know, drink Coca-Cola that says, you know, drink Coca-Cola Classic. What you did not do was have Classic. What you did not do was have Classic. What you did not do was have like, I don't know, some guy on a like, I don't know, some guy on a like, I don't know, some guy on a motorcycle follow that vehicle back to motorcycle follow that vehicle back to motorcycle follow that vehicle back to its house, you know, write down the its house, you know, write down the its house, you know, write down the address, camp out outside the house and address, camp out outside the house and address, camp out outside the house and then wait for them to buy Coke and see then wait for them to buy Coke and see then wait for them to buy Coke and see how much and then attribute that to the how much and then attribute that to the how much and then attribute that to the billboard like that. That's not what billboard like that. That's not what billboard like that. That's not what happened, right? And so the way you do happened, right? And so the way you do happened, right? And so the way you do attribution and the way you do attribution and the way you do attribution and the way you do measurement, you got to throw that out measurement, you got to throw that out measurement, you got to throw that out the window because that has fully the window because that has fully the window because that has fully changed. And you have to recognize that changed. And you have to recognize that changed. And you have to recognize that the new way to measure because measuring the new way to measure because measuring the new way to measure because measuring is still important. And I'm not saying is still important. And I'm not saying is still important. And I'm not saying throw out measurement, but you have to throw out measurement, but you have to throw out measurement, but you have to do it the way Oglev and Mather did it in do it the way Oglev and Mather did it in do it the way Oglev and Mather did it in ' 65, which was what happened with same ' 65, which was what happened with same ' 65, which was what happened with same store sales in a 30 mile radius around store sales in a 30 mile radius around store sales in a 30 mile radius around the billboard and what happened in, you the billboard and what happened in, you the billboard and what happened in, you know, the next city over with the know, the next city over with the know, the next city over with the billboard we put up there and what billboard we put up there and what billboard we put up there and what happened in the city where we put up no happened in the city where we put up no happened in the city where we put up no billboard and what happened in the city billboard and what happened in the city billboard and what happened in the city where we put up 10 billboards and and where we put up 10 billboards and and where we put up 10 billboards and and like then you test and you're like, like then you test and you're like, like then you test and you're like, "Aha, this density of billboards with "Aha, this density of billboards with "Aha, this density of billboards with this message for this audience in these this message for this audience in these this message for this audience in these regions works this well and results in regions works this well and results in regions works this well and results in this much lift over the statistical this much lift over the statistical this much lift over the statistical model that we would have predicted with model that we would have predicted with model that we would have predicted with seasonality included. Tada. Measurement seasonality included. Tada. Measurement seasonality included. Tada. Measurement based on lift, not attribution. We're based on lift, not attribution. We're based on lift, not attribution. We're throwing out this whole concept of throwing out this whole concept of throwing out this whole concept of attribution. And that means that when attribution. And that means that when attribution. And that means that when you choose your channels and your you choose your channels and your you choose your channels and your tactics and what you're going to invest tactics and what you're going to invest tactics and what you're going to invest in, I would recommend, especially if in, I would recommend, especially if in, I would recommend, especially if you're small and you're starting up and you're small and you're starting up and you're small and you're starting up and you're trying to get those first 100

you're trying to get those first 100 you're trying to get those first 100 customers, customers, customers, you should focus on things that you are you should focus on things that you are you should focus on things that you are personally passionate about and personally passionate about and personally passionate about and interested in. Channels and tactics that interested in. Channels and tactics that interested in. Channels and tactics that like resonate with you, the human being. like resonate with you, the human being. like resonate with you, the human being. Here's something I've never heard, Matt. Here's something I've never heard, Matt. Here's something I've never heard, Matt. Not in my whole life. I'm so good at Not in my whole life. I'm so good at Not in my whole life. I'm so good at Instagram, but I really hate it. Nope. Instagram, but I really hate it. Nope. Instagram, but I really hate it. Nope. Nope. Doesn't happen. If you hate Nope. Doesn't happen. If you hate Nope. Doesn't happen. If you hate Instagram, don't use it for marketing. Instagram, don't use it for marketing. Instagram, don't use it for marketing. Like, you're going to suck a bunch of Like, you're going to suck a bunch of Like, you're going to suck a bunch of time. Even if you think it's a good time. Even if you think it's a good time. Even if you think it's a good potential channel eventually for you, I potential channel eventually for you, I potential channel eventually for you, I don't care. Like, don't don't do it. Are don't care. Like, don't don't do it. Are don't care. Like, don't don't do it. Are you really good at onetoone emails? Are you really good at onetoone emails? Are you really good at onetoone emails? Are you great at conferences and events? Are you great at conferences and events? Are you great at conferences and events? Are you good at offline branding and like you good at offline branding and like you good at offline branding and like physical sandwich boards, you know, in physical sandwich boards, you know, in physical sandwich boards, you know, in neighborhoods and like, I don't know, neighborhoods and like, I don't know, neighborhoods and like, I don't know, gorilla campaigns where you like tack up gorilla campaigns where you like tack up gorilla campaigns where you like tack up uh posters against telephone poles in uh posters against telephone poles in uh posters against telephone poles in densely populated cities. Like, hell, go densely populated cities. Like, hell, go densely populated cities. Like, hell, go for it, man. Like, do the thing that for it, man. Like, do the thing that for it, man. Like, do the thing that you're good at. 100 customers is so you're good at. 100 customers is so you're good at. 100 customers is so small in the massive economies that we small in the massive economies that we small in the massive economies that we live in. It's such a tiny number. focus live in. It's such a tiny number. focus live in. It's such a tiny number. focus on the thing that you're really good at on the thing that you're really good at on the thing that you're really good at and then just make sure that it fits and then just make sure that it fits and then just make sure that it fits these other parameters which is that these other parameters which is that these other parameters which is that your audience actually pays attention to your audience actually pays attention to your audience actually pays attention to those places. So if you're great at those places. So if you're great at those places. So if you're great at tacking up billboards on or posters on tacking up billboards on or posters on tacking up billboards on or posters on telephone poles but none of your telephone poles but none of your telephone poles but none of your customers live in that neighborhood, customers live in that neighborhood, customers live in that neighborhood, you're going to have a bad time, right?

you're going to have a bad time, right? you're going to have a bad time, right? And in the digital world, if you're And in the digital world, if you're And in the digital world, if you're like, "Oh, I'm so good at Reddit, but like, "Oh, I'm so good at Reddit, but like, "Oh, I'm so good at Reddit, but there's no communities on Reddit where there's no communities on Reddit where there's no communities on Reddit where your audience is paying attention to your audience is paying attention to your audience is paying attention to that topic." It's not going to work, that topic." It's not going to work, that topic." It's not going to work, right? you need to transition like oh right? you need to transition like oh right? you need to transition like oh maybe there's Reddit like communities on maybe there's Reddit like communities on maybe there's Reddit like communities on LinkedIn or Discord or you know whatever LinkedIn or Discord or you know whatever LinkedIn or Discord or you know whatever it is you need to be in those places so it is you need to be in those places so it is you need to be in those places so your audience is there you're passionate your audience is there you're passionate your audience is there you're passionate about it and you got to be able to do about it and you got to be able to do about it and you got to be able to do something unique you have to find some something unique you have to find some something unique you have to find some way that you stand out from the rest of way that you stand out from the rest of way that you stand out from the rest of your competitors who are also good at your competitors who are also good at your competitors who are also good at that network and doing things there that that network and doing things there that that network and doing things there that could be that your video content is way could be that your video content is way could be that your video content is way more expressive and creative and more expressive and creative and more expressive and creative and artistic. It could be that your artistic. It could be that your artistic. It could be that your messaging is just way better. It could messaging is just way better. It could messaging is just way better. It could be that you're amazing at telling be that you're amazing at telling be that you're amazing at telling stories with data or maybe you're stories with data or maybe you're stories with data or maybe you're fantastic at, I don't know, comic style fantastic at, I don't know, comic style fantastic at, I don't know, comic style illustrations that people love to copy illustrations that people love to copy illustrations that people love to copy and paste. Like, whatever it is, you got and paste. Like, whatever it is, you got and paste. Like, whatever it is, you got to have something unique to stand out to have something unique to stand out to have something unique to stand out from the crowd. You got to have your from the crowd. You got to have your from the crowd. You got to have your audience actually be on the platform, audience actually be on the platform, audience actually be on the platform, and you need to be personally passionate and you need to be personally passionate and you need to be personally passionate and interested in it. Those are the and interested in it. Those are the and interested in it. Those are the three.

three. three. >> I love it. There's a bunch of really >> I love it. There's a bunch of really >> I love it. There's a bunch of really good explanations for why you should go good explanations for why you should go good explanations for why you should go back and blow the dust off of your Ogalv back and blow the dust off of your Ogalv back and blow the dust off of your Ogalv on advertising book. It It's true. A lot on advertising book. It It's true. A lot on advertising book. It It's true. A lot of what you said first off was physical. of what you said first off was physical. of what you said first off was physical. A lot of the things that you commented A lot of the things that you commented A lot of the things that you commented on were more like non-digital. on were more like non-digital. on were more like non-digital. >> Yeah. Yeah. Cuz the analogy works in the >> Yeah. Yeah. Cuz the analogy works in the >> Yeah. Yeah. Cuz the analogy works in the digital era, too. And also, it's never digital era, too. And also, it's never digital era, too. And also, it's never been easier to stand out in the offline been easier to stand out in the offline been easier to stand out in the offline world. It's weird to say, but the world. It's weird to say, but the world. It's weird to say, but the offline world is almost cut compared to offline world is almost cut compared to offline world is almost cut compared to digital, which is so overcrowded with digital, which is so overcrowded with digital, which is so overcrowded with every kind of marketer and campaign and every kind of marketer and campaign and every kind of marketer and campaign and just the dollars in digital advertising just the dollars in digital advertising just the dollars in digital advertising is crazy. If you can be creative in the is crazy. If you can be creative in the is crazy. If you can be creative in the real world and your customers are there, real world and your customers are there, real world and your customers are there, that's a huge win. It's great advice. I that's a huge win. It's great advice. I that's a huge win. It's great advice. I mean, I really hope people listen to mean, I really hope people listen to mean, I really hope people listen to that and think about it more is not that and think about it more is not that and think about it more is not being so beholden to attribution. being so beholden to attribution. being so beholden to attribution. something I'll take away from this something I'll take away from this something I'll take away from this conversation because I think it's a conversation because I think it's a conversation because I think it's a really important reminder to like not really important reminder to like not really important reminder to like not get so hooked on performance marketing get so hooked on performance marketing get so hooked on performance marketing techniques that you can't take a step techniques that you can't take a step techniques that you can't take a step back and rethink about like brand and back and rethink about like brand and back and rethink about like brand and just like being different and just like being different and just like being different and remembering what are the essence of the remembering what are the essence of the remembering what are the essence of the things that make you unique and make you things that make you unique and make you things that make you unique and make you stand out in the market and I love it stand out in the market and I love it stand out in the market and I love it and finding a place where you can and finding a place where you can and finding a place where you can generate the least amount of noise for generate the least amount of noise for generate the least amount of noise for the most amount of attention. That's a the most amount of attention. That's a the most amount of attention. That's a constantly moving target.

constantly moving target. constantly moving target. >> Yeah, that ratio that ratio is so >> Yeah, that ratio that ratio is so >> Yeah, that ratio that ratio is so important. Absolutely. important. Absolutely. important. Absolutely. >> Yeah. Yeah. that's the thing you're >> Yeah. Yeah. that's the thing you're >> Yeah. Yeah. that's the thing you're trying to optimize for. I love that. I trying to optimize for. I love that. I trying to optimize for. I love that. I think that's good advice, especially think that's good advice, especially think that's good advice, especially because you're right, zero to 100. I I because you're right, zero to 100. I I because you're right, zero to 100. I I actually think, and this is partly the actually think, and this is partly the actually think, and this is partly the reason I keyed in on this is this has reason I keyed in on this is this has reason I keyed in on this is this has been in the back of my mind, but I think been in the back of my mind, but I think been in the back of my mind, but I think as AI demonstrates, it's so easy to fake as AI demonstrates, it's so easy to fake as AI demonstrates, it's so easy to fake so much. It's a pendulum. It always so much. It's a pendulum. It always so much. It's a pendulum. It always swings back. If we've decided that Gen swings back. If we've decided that Gen swings back. If we've decided that Gen AI is the end of the pendulum swing in AI is the end of the pendulum swing in AI is the end of the pendulum swing in one direction, there's an inevitability one direction, there's an inevitability one direction, there's an inevitability for it to come back and people to for it to come back and people to for it to come back and people to respond and say, "Well, I'm a human. I respond and say, "Well, I'm a human. I respond and say, "Well, I'm a human. I want to talk to another human to make want to talk to another human to make want to talk to another human to make sure I'm making a good decision." I sure I'm making a good decision." I sure I'm making a good decision." I don't think that's going to decrease. I don't think that's going to decrease. I don't think that's going to decrease. I think if anything, that's a better think if anything, that's a better think if anything, that's a better opportunity for the next few years to opportunity for the next few years to opportunity for the next few years to like get some attention. like get some attention. like get some attention. >> Yeah, I completely agree. I think that >> Yeah, I completely agree. I think that >> Yeah, I completely agree. I think that AI will help clever people do more AI will help clever people do more AI will help clever people do more clever things with their marketing and clever things with their marketing and clever things with their marketing and their content and their ideation and their content and their ideation and their content and their ideation and their brainstorming and all that kind of their brainstorming and all that kind of their brainstorming and all that kind of stuff. And some unfortunately misled stuff. And some unfortunately misled stuff. And some unfortunately misled people will think that they're supposed people will think that they're supposed people will think that they're supposed to use it to create content that they to use it to create content that they to use it to create content that they should publish and create emails that should publish and create emails that should publish and create emails that they should send and create video they should send and create video they should send and create video interviews that they should post on interviews that they should post on interviews that they should post on YouTube. And those people are all going YouTube. And those people are all going YouTube. And those people are all going to have a bad time, right? there's going to have a bad time, right? there's going to have a bad time, right? there's going to be one story out of a hundred to be one story out of a hundred to be one story out of a hundred thousand of like, "Oh my god, look at thousand of like, "Oh my god, look at thousand of like, "Oh my god, look at this virtual influencer who built this, this virtual influencer who built this, this virtual influencer who built this, you know, incredible campaign. It's all you know, incredible campaign. It's all you know, incredible campaign. It's all using AI and then you're going to look using AI and then you're going to look using AI and then you're going to look for like the second example and you for like the second example and you for like the second example and you never find it, right?" And but everybody never find it, right?" And but everybody never find it, right?" And but everybody points to the one and they're like, points to the one and they're like, points to the one and they're like, "See, AI is going to take over." We've

"See, AI is going to take over." We've "See, AI is going to take over." We've been here before, friends. Like, do you been here before, friends. Like, do you been here before, friends. Like, do you remember how web 3 was going to be the remember how web 3 was going to be the remember how web 3 was going to be the future of all technology? Yes. We're future of all technology? Yes. We're future of all technology? Yes. We're supposed to be having this conversation supposed to be having this conversation supposed to be having this conversation on the blockchain right now. on the blockchain right now. on the blockchain right now. >> That's right. Yeah. Every word is saved >> That's right. Yeah. Every word is saved >> That's right. Yeah. Every word is saved to its own specific place on the chain. to its own specific place on the chain. to its own specific place on the chain. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. >> Instance. Exactly. And you can only >> Instance. Exactly. And you can only >> Instance. Exactly. And you can only connect them up if you got the key. connect them up if you got the key. connect them up if you got the key. Yeah. Anyway, um also this is supposed Yeah. Anyway, um also this is supposed Yeah. Anyway, um also this is supposed to be unavailable on the desktop web and to be unavailable on the desktop web and to be unavailable on the desktop web and we're supposed to have a mobile app we're supposed to have a mobile app we're supposed to have a mobile app which is the only exclusive place where which is the only exclusive place where which is the only exclusive place where you can access this conversation. That you can access this conversation. That you can access this conversation. That that would be the 2009 version of this that would be the 2009 version of this that would be the 2009 version of this advice. Right. you're leaning more advice. Right. you're leaning more advice. Right. you're leaning more towards the optimistic sentiment then it towards the optimistic sentiment then it towards the optimistic sentiment then it sounds like when it comes to AI because sounds like when it comes to AI because sounds like when it comes to AI because the examples that you've just portrayed the examples that you've just portrayed the examples that you've just portrayed in this conversation are at least three in this conversation are at least three in this conversation are at least three moments in the last 10 years where moments in the last 10 years where moments in the last 10 years where supposedly the thing that happened was supposedly the thing that happened was supposedly the thing that happened was going to end all the other things that going to end all the other things that going to end all the other things that happened and it's never really come happened and it's never really come happened and it's never really come virtual reality is the other one right virtual reality is the other one right virtual reality is the other one right virtual and augmented reality is the virtual and augmented reality is the virtual and augmented reality is the sort of the fourth example of that that sort of the fourth example of that that sort of the fourth example of that that you know never appeared so anyway you know never appeared so anyway you know never appeared so anyway anytime these hype cycles come and I'm anytime these hype cycles come and I'm anytime these hype cycles come and I'm not saying AI is all hype it's a useful not saying AI is all hype it's a useful not saying AI is all hype it's a useful technology absolutely Absolutely it is.

technology absolutely Absolutely it is. technology absolutely Absolutely it is. Is it as transformational as the Is it as transformational as the Is it as transformational as the invention of the computer or the invention of the computer or the invention of the computer or the internet as a whole? I don't think so. internet as a whole? I don't think so. internet as a whole? I don't think so. Is it third in line behind those? Maybe. Is it third in line behind those? Maybe. Is it third in line behind those? Maybe. Maybe mobile's even bigger. But what I Maybe mobile's even bigger. But what I Maybe mobile's even bigger. But what I would say is just be cautious in would say is just be cautious in would say is just be cautious in assuming that everything is going to assuming that everything is going to assuming that everything is going to change overnight and that AI is going to change overnight and that AI is going to change overnight and that AI is going to take everyone's jobs. Like it's just not take everyone's jobs. Like it's just not take everyone's jobs. Like it's just not it's not realistic. And very frankly, I it's not realistic. And very frankly, I it's not realistic. And very frankly, I will say this one thing about AI, which will say this one thing about AI, which will say this one thing about AI, which is if you are trying to get budget to do is if you are trying to get budget to do is if you are trying to get budget to do something, you should probably put AI in something, you should probably put AI in something, you should probably put AI in your pitch because there's a lot of I I your pitch because there's a lot of I I your pitch because there's a lot of I I don't want to use a pjorative term. don't want to use a pjorative term. don't want to use a pjorative term. There are many human beings who are in There are many human beings who are in There are many human beings who are in various positions of management whose various positions of management whose various positions of management whose executive teams basically have said no executive teams basically have said no executive teams basically have said no more spending on anything unless it's more spending on anything unless it's more spending on anything unless it's AI. And so I was talking to a friend, AI. And so I was talking to a friend, AI. And so I was talking to a friend, I'm not gonna name which of the big tech I'm not gonna name which of the big tech I'm not gonna name which of the big tech companies here in Seattle they were at, companies here in Seattle they were at, companies here in Seattle they were at, but I was like, I know you went through but I was like, I know you went through but I was like, I know you went through a reorg recently and he was like, well, a reorg recently and he was like, well, a reorg recently and he was like, well, I'm doing exactly the same job that I I'm doing exactly the same job that I I'm doing exactly the same job that I was before. My manager just didn't want was before. My manager just didn't want was before. My manager just didn't want any of us getting fired, so they renamed any of us getting fired, so they renamed any of us getting fired, so they renamed our team AI and now we can do our jobs our team AI and now we can do our jobs our team AI and now we can do our jobs in peace, right? And I was like, oh in peace, right? And I was like, oh in peace, right? And I was like, oh yeah, like everybody else, right? And I yeah, like everybody else, right? And I yeah, like everybody else, right? And I was with a a second person from a was with a a second person from a was with a a second person from a different big tech company in Seattle different big tech company in Seattle different big tech company in Seattle who was like, that just happened to me.

who was like, that just happened to me. who was like, that just happened to me. So, I read today 2% of GDP is currently So, I read today 2% of GDP is currently So, I read today 2% of GDP is currently committed to AI projects and the article committed to AI projects and the article committed to AI projects and the article I forget. I'd love to quote it and I'm I forget. I'd love to quote it and I'm I forget. I'd love to quote it and I'm doing a terrible job, but it basically doing a terrible job, but it basically doing a terrible job, but it basically said if I read this online, said if I read this online, said if I read this online, >> okay, where they're like, look, we're >> okay, where they're like, look, we're >> okay, where they're like, look, we're make everybody's made a big bet on AGI. make everybody's made a big bet on AGI. make everybody's made a big bet on AGI. So, if it doesn't happen now, there's a So, if it doesn't happen now, there's a So, if it doesn't happen now, there's a huge recession coming like it's going to huge recession coming like it's going to huge recession coming like it's going to kill 2% of GDP right there at a minimum kill 2% of GDP right there at a minimum kill 2% of GDP right there at a minimum and it's actually going to be a lot and it's actually going to be a lot and it's actually going to be a lot higher than that. It was a really higher than that. It was a really higher than that. It was a really fascinating idea that if AGGI doesn't fascinating idea that if AGGI doesn't fascinating idea that if AGGI doesn't get here in the next 12 months, there's get here in the next 12 months, there's get here in the next 12 months, there's a different kind of deep we're all a different kind of deep we're all a different kind of deep we're all going to be in. I would point folks to going to be in. I would point folks to going to be in. I would point folks to the dot crash, right, which was almost the dot crash, right, which was almost the dot crash, right, which was almost exactly this flavor of hype cycle and exactly this flavor of hype cycle and exactly this flavor of hype cycle and media attention. The internet took off, media attention. The internet took off, media attention. The internet took off, right? dot coms eventually took off, but right? dot coms eventually took off, but right? dot coms eventually took off, but the hype was so crazy between 1995 and the hype was so crazy between 1995 and the hype was so crazy between 1995 and 2000 2000 2000 as it has been from 2021 to today. The as it has been from 2021 to today. The as it has been from 2021 to today. The hype was so crazy, there were hype was so crazy, there were hype was so crazy, there were expectations so high, the stock prices expectations so high, the stock prices expectations so high, the stock prices so high, like all these kinds of things.

so high, like all these kinds of things. so high, like all these kinds of things. When that.com collapse and recession When that.com collapse and recession When that.com collapse and recession happened, the interesting part was that happened, the interesting part was that happened, the interesting part was that it really hit this one sector of the it really hit this one sector of the it really hit this one sector of the economy really hard and then a lot of economy really hard and then a lot of economy really hard and then a lot of other sectors kind of grew and matured other sectors kind of grew and matured other sectors kind of grew and matured and adopted the technology over the next and adopted the technology over the next and adopted the technology over the next few years. I would just encourage anyone few years. I would just encourage anyone few years. I would just encourage anyone who's thinking my whole life personally who's thinking my whole life personally who's thinking my whole life personally and professionally is that I'm an AI and professionally is that I'm an AI and professionally is that I'm an AI expert. Maybe just diversify a little expert. Maybe just diversify a little expert. Maybe just diversify a little bit to protect yourself. Be good at bit to protect yourself. Be good at bit to protect yourself. Be good at anything else, right? In addition to AI, anything else, right? In addition to AI, anything else, right? In addition to AI, I have one more question or a line of I have one more question or a line of I have one more question or a line of questions. I want to hear your answer. questions. I want to hear your answer. questions. I want to hear your answer. Do you consider yourself a salesperson? Do you consider yourself a salesperson? Do you consider yourself a salesperson? >> Oh gosh, definitely not. I don't know, >> Oh gosh, definitely not. I don't know, >> Oh gosh, definitely not. I don't know, Matt, if you've ever, you probably have Matt, if you've ever, you probably have Matt, if you've ever, you probably have never done this, but if you email never done this, but if you email never done this, but if you email Sparkro support and you ask for a demo Sparkro support and you ask for a demo Sparkro support and you ask for a demo or to talk to a salesperson or or an or to talk to a salesperson or or an or to talk to a salesperson or or an account manager or whatever, the reply account manager or whatever, the reply account manager or whatever, the reply that myself or Amanda will send is, that myself or Amanda will send is, that myself or Amanda will send is, "Sorry, we don't have those people. "Sorry, we don't have those people. "Sorry, we don't have those people. We're just a tiny team of three. We We're just a tiny team of three. We We're just a tiny team of three. We don't do sales. We will not do sock 2 don't do sales. We will not do sock 2 don't do sales. We will not do sock 2 compliance. We will not sign a contract compliance. We will not sign a contract compliance. We will not sign a contract with you. If you have a credit card, with you. If you have a credit card, with you. If you have a credit card, feel free to sign up for a free account feel free to sign up for a free account feel free to sign up for a free account and then like try it out and pay for the and then like try it out and pay for the and then like try it out and pay for the version online, but we we don't do version online, but we we don't do version online, but we we don't do anything else. And and I was the same anything else. And and I was the same anything else. And and I was the same way at Moz. My first startup, I don't way at Moz. My first startup, I don't way at Moz. My first startup, I don't think I am good at sales, at least think I am good at sales, at least think I am good at sales, at least oneonone. I'll tell you a very oneonone. I'll tell you a very oneonone. I'll tell you a very embarrassing story. I know we love embarrassing story. I know we love embarrassing story. I know we love stories. First six months after Spark stories. First six months after Spark stories. First six months after Spark Pro launched, Casey and I thought, hey, Pro launched, Casey and I thought, hey, Pro launched, Casey and I thought, hey, you know what? Sometimes you got to bite you know what? Sometimes you got to bite you know what? Sometimes you got to bite the bullet and do sales, right? It's the bullet and do sales, right? It's the bullet and do sales, right? It's early days. We got to get this startup early days. We got to get this startup early days. We got to get this startup off the ground. So when people would off the ground. So when people would off the ground. So when people would write in, I would give them demos. You write in, I would give them demos. You write in, I would give them demos. You know, you might write in, we'd schedule

know, you might write in, we'd schedule know, you might write in, we'd schedule something. We'd hop on a call. I'd be something. We'd hop on a call. I'd be something. We'd hop on a call. I'd be showing you Spark Toro over in this showing you Spark Toro over in this showing you Spark Toro over in this corner over here, like presenting it, corner over here, like presenting it, corner over here, like presenting it, you know, running through your you know, running through your you know, running through your audiences, typing things up, talking to audiences, typing things up, talking to audiences, typing things up, talking to your team. I always had very engaging your team. I always had very engaging your team. I always had very engaging chats. I felt like I learned things chats. I felt like I learned things chats. I felt like I learned things about companies and people and agencies, about companies and people and agencies, about companies and people and agencies, and it wasn't bad. There was nothing and it wasn't bad. There was nothing and it wasn't bad. There was nothing nothing wrong with it. But my conversion nothing wrong with it. But my conversion nothing wrong with it. But my conversion rate from the first rate from the first rate from the first 130 demos that I did over the course of 130 demos that I did over the course of 130 demos that I did over the course of maybe 9 8 n months was two signups. Wow. maybe 9 8 n months was two signups. Wow. maybe 9 8 n months was two signups. Wow. Two people who I had talked to on those Two people who I had talked to on those Two people who I had talked to on those calls signed up for Spark Toro. Maybe calls signed up for Spark Toro. Maybe calls signed up for Spark Toro. Maybe more, but we couldn't tell cuz they more, but we couldn't tell cuz they more, but we couldn't tell cuz they didn't use the same email. I don't know. didn't use the same email. I don't know. didn't use the same email. I don't know. But every day five or six people signed But every day five or six people signed But every day five or six people signed up without talking to me. Why? Why was I up without talking to me. Why? Why was I up without talking to me. Why? Why was I doing this? Like what? One of two things doing this? Like what? One of two things doing this? Like what? One of two things is happening, right? one, which this is is happening, right? one, which this is is happening, right? one, which this is possible, totally possible. Rand is the possible, totally possible. Rand is the possible, totally possible. Rand is the world's worst salesperson. Like, he is world's worst salesperson. Like, he is world's worst salesperson. Like, he is actually turning you off. As soon as you actually turning you off. As soon as you actually turning you off. As soon as you start talking to him about Spark, you're start talking to him about Spark, you're start talking to him about Spark, you're like, "Well, I was excited about this like, "Well, I was excited about this like, "Well, I was excited about this product, but then the founder talked to product, but then the founder talked to product, but then the founder talked to me about what they made and I just or me about what they made and I just or me about what they made and I just or the people who wanted demos were not the people who wanted demos were not the people who wanted demos were not right matches for the product." I think right matches for the product." I think right matches for the product." I think it was this one. That's what I hope it was this one. That's what I hope it was this one. That's what I hope anyway. I tell myself so I can sleep anyway. I tell myself so I can sleep anyway. I tell myself so I can sleep well at night and not cry myself uh into well at night and not cry myself uh into well at night and not cry myself uh into order. I think that if you need that order. I think that if you need that order. I think that if you need that sales process, you're probably not a sales process, you're probably not a sales process, you're probably not a good match for Spark Toro. And so maybe good match for Spark Toro. And so maybe good match for Spark Toro. And so maybe if I were a better salesperson, I'd be if I were a better salesperson, I'd be if I were a better salesperson, I'd be over here. But this is something I would over here. But this is something I would over here. But this is something I would tell founders. So like if you are tell founders. So like if you are tell founders. So like if you are listening this and you're a founder or listening this and you're a founder or listening this and you're a founder or you're an earlystage company, you're you're an earlystage company, you're you're an earlystage company, you're joining one, build your company to joining one, build your company to joining one, build your company to optimize for the things that you're optimize for the things that you're optimize for the things that you're great at and not need the things that

great at and not need the things that great at and not need the things that you suck at. I know a lot of the advice you suck at. I know a lot of the advice you suck at. I know a lot of the advice out there is like find a co-founder who out there is like find a co-founder who out there is like find a co-founder who you know will take care of the things you know will take care of the things you know will take care of the things that you suck at that you're not good that you suck at that you're not good that you suck at that you're not good at. I sort of disagree. Can you design a at. I sort of disagree. Can you design a at. I sort of disagree. Can you design a business that doesn't need that thing business that doesn't need that thing business that doesn't need that thing you're no good at or that you don't you're no good at or that you don't you're no good at or that you don't enjoy? You can. You can design a company enjoy? You can. You can design a company enjoy? You can. You can design a company to not need your weaknesses. to not need your weaknesses. to not need your weaknesses. >> And when the company gets so big that >> And when the company gets so big that >> And when the company gets so big that that's the thing that you have to fill, that's the thing that you have to fill, that's the thing that you have to fill, right? Then you can hire people. Yeah. right? Then you can hire people. Yeah. right? Then you can hire people. Yeah. 100%. 100%. 100%. >> Now you have a high quality problem that >> Now you have a high quality problem that >> Now you have a high quality problem that can be fixed with money. Yeah. can be fixed with money. Yeah. can be fixed with money. Yeah. >> Yeah. I love that though. That's it's >> Yeah. I love that though. That's it's >> Yeah. I love that though. That's it's great advice. I think it's really hard great advice. I think it's really hard great advice. I think it's really hard to follow because especially when you're to follow because especially when you're to follow because especially when you're early days, if a customer calls Yeah. early days, if a customer calls Yeah. early days, if a customer calls Yeah. the instinct kicks in and you're like, I the instinct kicks in and you're like, I the instinct kicks in and you're like, I should talk to them. that's the right should talk to them. that's the right should talk to them. that's the right answer. I need to be good at this. The answer. I need to be good at this. The answer. I need to be good at this. The founder should be the best salesperson. founder should be the best salesperson. founder should be the best salesperson. Doesn't always work out. But I think Doesn't always work out. But I think Doesn't always work out. But I think reminding you that you need to optimize reminding you that you need to optimize reminding you that you need to optimize for your strengths, I think, is really for your strengths, I think, is really for your strengths, I think, is really key. I think look the Hunter audience I key. I think look the Hunter audience I key. I think look the Hunter audience I think there are a lot of people in the think there are a lot of people in the think there are a lot of people in the Hunter customer base but even in the Hunter customer base but even in the Hunter customer base but even in the audience that don't think of themselves audience that don't think of themselves audience that don't think of themselves as salespeople and yet are going to have as salespeople and yet are going to have as salespeople and yet are going to have to do sales-like activities sending an to do sales-like activities sending an to do sales-like activities sending an outbound campaign actually doing you outbound campaign actually doing you outbound campaign actually doing you know some face tof face conversations know some face tof face conversations know some face tof face conversations like getting out and kind of being the like getting out and kind of being the like getting out and kind of being the boots on the ground from time to time I boots on the ground from time to time I boots on the ground from time to time I do a ton of that oh absolutely right do a ton of that oh absolutely right do a ton of that oh absolutely right saleslike activities where you know for saleslike activities where you know for saleslike activities where you know for example hey this whatever person in the example hey this whatever person in the example hey this whatever person in the media covered this report you know what media covered this report you know what media covered this report you know what I need to go find their email and reach I need to go find their email and reach I need to go find their email and reach out to them and like have a conversation out to them and like have a conversation out to them and like have a conversation and be like, "Hey, you know, when the and be like, "Hey, you know, when the and be like, "Hey, you know, when the Wall Street Journal wrote about this, Wall Street Journal wrote about this, Wall Street Journal wrote about this, what you didn't consider was this point.

what you didn't consider was this point. what you didn't consider was this point. I wish that had been included." Or like, I wish that had been included." Or like, I wish that had been included." Or like, "Hey, when you wrote about us, you "Hey, when you wrote about us, you "Hey, when you wrote about us, you called us a market research firm. That called us a market research firm. That called us a market research firm. That is not what we do. Would you mind fixing is not what we do. Would you mind fixing is not what we do. Would you mind fixing it up?" Very important in the age of AI it up?" Very important in the age of AI it up?" Very important in the age of AI where, you know, chat GPT is going to where, you know, chat GPT is going to where, you know, chat GPT is going to call you the thing that the Wall Street call you the thing that the Wall Street call you the thing that the Wall Street Journal called you, right? And so I do a Journal called you, right? And so I do a Journal called you, right? And so I do a ton of these for events, right? where ton of these for events, right? where ton of these for events, right? where I'm like reaching out to people and I'm like reaching out to people and I'm like reaching out to people and trying to pitch them on coming to our trying to pitch them on coming to our trying to pitch them on coming to our events or or joining something. I do events or or joining something. I do events or or joining something. I do tons of sales-like activities when I'm tons of sales-like activities when I'm tons of sales-like activities when I'm networking with people around a million networking with people around a million networking with people around a million different topics, right? I had to do different topics, right? I had to do different topics, right? I had to do lots of sales-like activity to raise lots of sales-like activity to raise lots of sales-like activity to raise money for Snack Bar Studio and for Spark money for Snack Bar Studio and for Spark money for Snack Bar Studio and for Spark Toro before it. So, absolutely. Toro before it. So, absolutely. Toro before it. So, absolutely. >> Yeah, this is I think a common theme. >> Yeah, this is I think a common theme. >> Yeah, this is I think a common theme. Some of the things that actually keep Some of the things that actually keep Some of the things that actually keep people out of entrepreneurism is a fear people out of entrepreneurism is a fear people out of entrepreneurism is a fear of the selling piece. And that's why I of the selling piece. And that's why I of the selling piece. And that's why I really like the advice. Build a business really like the advice. Build a business really like the advice. Build a business that doesn't need you to be good at that doesn't need you to be good at that doesn't need you to be good at something you're not good at. I think something you're not good at. I think something you're not good at. I think it's great, but you or your team has to it's great, but you or your team has to it's great, but you or your team has to be good at either marketing or sales. be good at either marketing or sales. be good at either marketing or sales. You can't be bad at both of them. You can't be bad at both of them. You can't be bad at both of them. Otherwise, there's no customer Otherwise, there's no customer Otherwise, there's no customer acquisition. And I don't know if you've acquisition. And I don't know if you've acquisition. And I don't know if you've heard businesses tend to need customers, heard businesses tend to need customers, heard businesses tend to need customers, at least a couple of them. Exactly.

at least a couple of them. Exactly. at least a couple of them. Exactly. We'll play a little word game since your We'll play a little word game since your We'll play a little word game since your person who's built businesses is good at person who's built businesses is good at person who's built businesses is good at marketing, does not consider yourself a marketing, does not consider yourself a marketing, does not consider yourself a salesperson. What would you call like if salesperson. What would you call like if salesperson. What would you call like if you said to a colleague, "Let's send a you said to a colleague, "Let's send a you said to a colleague, "Let's send a cold email campaign." Would you call it cold email campaign." Would you call it cold email campaign." Would you call it cold email or would you call it cold email or would you call it cold email or would you call it something else? something else? something else? >> I've rarely recommended it, but we have >> I've rarely recommended it, but we have >> I've rarely recommended it, but we have done some direct email outreach. I don't done some direct email outreach. I don't done some direct email outreach. I don't know if it counts as cold because we know if it counts as cold because we know if it counts as cold because we always would have the email like we'd always would have the email like we'd always would have the email like we'd already have that person's email or we'd already have that person's email or we'd already have that person's email or we'd like have a connection to them in some like have a connection to them in some like have a connection to them in some way. Yeah, journalist outreach would be way. Yeah, journalist outreach would be way. Yeah, journalist outreach would be the exception. When I've done journalist the exception. When I've done journalist the exception. When I've done journalist and creator outreach, that's like a cold and creator outreach, that's like a cold and creator outreach, that's like a cold campaign, but it's one to one. But you campaign, but it's one to one. But you campaign, but it's one to one. But you wouldn't refer to it as a cold campaign. wouldn't refer to it as a cold campaign. wouldn't refer to it as a cold campaign. You would just consider it outreach. You would just consider it outreach. You would just consider it outreach. >> You're right. I'd call it media pitching >> You're right. I'd call it media pitching >> You're right. I'd call it media pitching or direct outreach or creator outreach. or direct outreach or creator outreach. or direct outreach or creator outreach. Yeah. YouTuber outreach. Exactly. Yeah. YouTuber outreach. Exactly. Yeah. YouTuber outreach. Exactly. >> The reason we ask these questions is I >> The reason we ask these questions is I >> The reason we ask these questions is I I'll tell you this in a second. So, I'll tell you this in a second. So, I'll tell you this in a second. So, ideal customer profile in ICP. Is that ideal customer profile in ICP. Is that ideal customer profile in ICP. Is that what you would call it? My formal what you would call it? My formal what you would call it? My formal language in business world is pretty language in business world is pretty language in business world is pretty pretty bad because I kind of stumbled pretty bad because I kind of stumbled pretty bad because I kind of stumbled into everything. I think that's a great into everything. I think that's a great into everything. I think that's a great term. I like it. I know many people who term. I like it. I know many people who term. I like it. I know many people who use it. I will often say our core use it. I will often say our core use it. I will often say our core customer, our key customer, our like our customer, our key customer, our like our customer, our key customer, our like our best customers are, but ICP works right.

best customers are, but ICP works right. best customers are, but ICP works right. >> Okay, there's a bunch of these, but I >> Okay, there's a bunch of these, but I >> Okay, there's a bunch of these, but I think one of the challenges that James think one of the challenges that James think one of the challenges that James and I have had as we've analyzed our and I have had as we've analyzed our and I have had as we've analyzed our customers and and really tried to customers and and really tried to customers and and really tried to understand our audience as well as we understand our audience as well as we understand our audience as well as we can. We have a bit of a horizontal can. We have a bit of a horizontal can. We have a bit of a horizontal business, right? Just about anybody business, right? Just about anybody business, right? Just about anybody who's B2B needs what we do at some who's B2B needs what we do at some who's B2B needs what we do at some point, which is an amazing product to point, which is an amazing product to point, which is an amazing product to have. have. have. >> Amazing amazing place to be in. Yes. >> Amazing amazing place to be in. Yes. >> Amazing amazing place to be in. Yes. However, if you talk to somebody who's a However, if you talk to somebody who's a However, if you talk to somebody who's a recruiter, they might not call it cold recruiter, they might not call it cold recruiter, they might not call it cold email. They might not refer to it as an email. They might not refer to it as an email. They might not refer to it as an ICP. And actually, if you said ICP and ICP. And actually, if you said ICP and ICP. And actually, if you said ICP and you didn't say the whole word, they you didn't say the whole word, they you didn't say the whole word, they might look at you funny. might look at you funny. might look at you funny. >> The International Center for Photography >> The International Center for Photography >> The International Center for Photography on Fifth Avenue in New York. What does on Fifth Avenue in New York. What does on Fifth Avenue in New York. What does that have to do with anything? that have to do with anything? that have to do with anything? >> We had a photographer photojournalist >> We had a photographer photojournalist >> We had a photographer photojournalist who, it turns out, not only was he an who, it turns out, not only was he an who, it turns out, not only was he an active user, I met him, by the way, in a active user, I met him, by the way, in a active user, I met him, by the way, in a side conversation. I reached out to him side conversation. I reached out to him side conversation. I reached out to him about his photography. I was like, "Hey, about his photography. I was like, "Hey, about his photography. I was like, "Hey, I'd love some advice." We started I'd love some advice." We started I'd love some advice." We started chatting. I said, "By the way, what my chatting. I said, "By the way, what my chatting. I said, "By the way, what my day job is." And he was like, "You're day job is." And he was like, "You're day job is." And he was like, "You're kidding." I'm like, "No." He's like, kidding." I'm like, "No." He's like, kidding." I'm like, "No." He's like, "I'm a customer." I'm like, "This is "I'm a customer." I'm like, "This is "I'm a customer." I'm like, "This is great. Let's talk." But would have never great. Let's talk." But would have never great. Let's talk." But would have never used the words cold email or cold used the words cold email or cold used the words cold email or cold outreach. It was a pitch. And we outreach. It was a pitch. And we outreach. It was a pitch. And we discovered, this is one of the funny discovered, this is one of the funny discovered, this is one of the funny things is that if you come from our things is that if you come from our things is that if you come from our industry, you would think everybody uses industry, you would think everybody uses industry, you would think everybody uses like four keywords. And it turns out the like four keywords. And it turns out the like four keywords. And it turns out the vast majority of people I've spoken to vast majority of people I've spoken to vast majority of people I've spoken to verbally who are customers or Hunter verbally who are customers or Hunter verbally who are customers or Hunter users don't use any of those terms. And users don't use any of those terms. And users don't use any of those terms. And we find it fascinating that a product we find it fascinating that a product we find it fascinating that a product like ours continues to grow and exist like ours continues to grow and exist like ours continues to grow and exist and reach people and create value.

and reach people and create value. and reach people and create value. Sorry, I now I'm sound like I'm selling Sorry, I now I'm sound like I'm selling Sorry, I now I'm sound like I'm selling Hunter that I get excited about what we Hunter that I get excited about what we Hunter that I get excited about what we do for this reason. I mean, we're we're do for this reason. I mean, we're we're do for this reason. I mean, we're we're you know, Spark Toro is a customer. We you know, Spark Toro is a customer. We you know, Spark Toro is a customer. We use you guys. We have an direct use you guys. We have an direct use you guys. We have an direct integration. Hundreds of our customers integration. Hundreds of our customers integration. Hundreds of our customers use Hunter through Spark Toro, right? use Hunter through Spark Toro, right? use Hunter through Spark Toro, right? So, like I'm a fan. I totally get it. So, like I'm a fan. I totally get it. So, like I'm a fan. I totally get it. Let me give you the one challenge level Let me give you the one challenge level Let me give you the one challenge level up from your challenge. up from your challenge. up from your challenge. >> Please. Please. People don't know what >> Please. Please. People don't know what >> Please. Please. People don't know what audience research is. And when we tell audience research is. And when we tell audience research is. And when we tell them like, well, how do you figure out them like, well, how do you figure out them like, well, how do you figure out if, for example, your ICP or your if, for example, your ICP or your if, for example, your ICP or your customers or your audience are using AI customers or your audience are using AI customers or your audience are using AI tools more than they're using tools more than they're using tools more than they're using traditional search or that they're traditional search or that they're traditional search or that they're listening to this media publication more listening to this media publication more listening to this media publication more than that one or that which YouTube than that one or that which YouTube than that one or that which YouTube channels they follow or what podcast channels they follow or what podcast channels they follow or what podcast they listen to. What most of our they listen to. What most of our they listen to. What most of our customers and audience tell us is, "I customers and audience tell us is, "I customers and audience tell us is, "I have no word for that. It's no one's have no word for that. It's no one's have no word for that. It's no one's job. my manager probably should care job. my manager probably should care job. my manager probably should care about it but doesn't and that has I about it but doesn't and that has I about it but doesn't and that has I think more than anything else that we do think more than anything else that we do think more than anything else that we do that severely impacts like the that severely impacts like the that severely impacts like the limitation of you know what we're doing limitation of you know what we're doing limitation of you know what we're doing however I have faced the same challenge however I have faced the same challenge however I have faced the same challenge before when I started doing SEO in 2003 before when I started doing SEO in 2003 before when I started doing SEO in 2003 if I told someone I did SEO they were if I told someone I did SEO they were if I told someone I did SEO they were either like what the hell is that or either like what the hell is that or either like what the hell is that or they were like that's spam like you're a they were like that's spam like you're a they were like that's spam like you're a spammer right which I'm sure you guys spammer right which I'm sure you guys spammer right which I'm sure you guys have heard too and it took me 15 years have heard too and it took me 15 years have heard too and it took me 15 years to like, you know, not me alone, right?

to like, you know, not me alone, right? to like, you know, not me alone, right? But like me plus thousands of other But like me plus thousands of other But like me plus thousands of other people in the SEO industry to like nudge people in the SEO industry to like nudge people in the SEO industry to like nudge the whole marketing universe and every the whole marketing universe and every the whole marketing universe and every company to be like, "Oh, SEO is just a company to be like, "Oh, SEO is just a company to be like, "Oh, SEO is just a standard practice we should all engage standard practice we should all engage standard practice we should all engage in because Google is going to dominate in because Google is going to dominate in because Google is going to dominate how people find information in the how people find information in the how people find information in the world." Aha, I should be present in that world." Aha, I should be present in that world." Aha, I should be present in that place where my audience pays attention. place where my audience pays attention. place where my audience pays attention. And now I'm trying to be like, well, And now I'm trying to be like, well, And now I'm trying to be like, well, what if your audience does not what if your audience does not what if your audience does not exclusively pay attention to Google? exclusively pay attention to Google? exclusively pay attention to Google? What if there are other places they pay What if there are other places they pay What if there are other places they pay attention to, other channels and attention to, other channels and attention to, other channels and platforms? How do you figure that out? platforms? How do you figure that out? platforms? How do you figure that out? And how do you know which ones? That's And how do you know which ones? That's And how do you know which ones? That's what audience research is. Someone what audience research is. Someone what audience research is. Someone should do that. The nice part is Spark should do that. The nice part is Spark should do that. The nice part is Spark Toro, to my knowledge, has no Toro, to my knowledge, has no Toro, to my knowledge, has no competitors. So like, you know, oh, competitors. So like, you know, oh, competitors. So like, you know, oh, that's nice. that's nice. that's nice. We should talk separate from this We should talk separate from this We should talk separate from this because I do think it would be great to because I do think it would be great to because I do think it would be great to see if there's some way we can partner see if there's some way we can partner see if there's some way we can partner together for data information. Like together for data information. Like together for data information. Like there's clearly some interesting things there's clearly some interesting things there's clearly some interesting things that we should explore here. And I I that we should explore here. And I I that we should explore here. And I I would love that. I mean I'm been a big would love that. I mean I'm been a big would love that. I mean I'm been a big fan of you guys for forever. Recommended fan of you guys for forever. Recommended fan of you guys for forever. Recommended you for years. So yeah absolutely happy you for years. So yeah absolutely happy you for years. So yeah absolutely happy to chat. And then you know the other to chat. And then you know the other to chat. And then you know the other thing that I would say is you know if thing that I would say is you know if thing that I would say is you know if you're a founder again like or you're you're a founder again like or you're you're a founder again like or you're early stage and you are looking for a early stage and you are looking for a early stage and you are looking for a relatively easy path to get those first relatively easy path to get those first relatively easy path to get those first 100 customers. It's not a bad idea to 100 customers. It's not a bad idea to 100 customers. It's not a bad idea to choose a sector that almost nobody else choose a sector that almost nobody else choose a sector that almost nobody else is in. Competition is very low. It's is in. Competition is very low. It's is in. Competition is very low. It's easier to get traction especially if the easier to get traction especially if the easier to get traction especially if the message resonates. What gets harder is message resonates. What gets harder is message resonates. What gets harder is when you want to grow past, you know, a when you want to grow past, you know, a when you want to grow past, you know, a few million or, you know, $10 million of few million or, you know, $10 million of few million or, you know, $10 million of revenue in that space in a space like revenue in that space in a space like revenue in that space in a space like ours, right, audience research where ours, right, audience research where ours, right, audience research where people don't have a word for it and they people don't have a word for it and they people don't have a word for it and they don't know to do it. That's where like don't know to do it. That's where like don't know to do it. That's where like you really bump up against that

you really bump up against that you really bump up against that difficulty of getting over the the difficulty of getting over the the difficulty of getting over the the chasm, right, to use the Klay chasm, right, to use the Klay chasm, right, to use the Klay Christensen term. And if instead you're Christensen term. And if instead you're Christensen term. And if instead you're like, I'm an old pro at this. I'm an like, I'm an old pro at this. I'm an like, I'm an old pro at this. I'm an expert. I can crush any early stage expert. I can crush any early stage expert. I can crush any early stage startup. Great, my friend. like pick a startup. Great, my friend. like pick a startup. Great, my friend. like pick a category that's big and go go category that's big and go go category that's big and go go head-to-head with the competitors. So, head-to-head with the competitors. So, head-to-head with the competitors. So, one of my other companies, Alert Mouse, one of my other companies, Alert Mouse, one of my other companies, Alert Mouse, is is doing that, going into the email is is doing that, going into the email is is doing that, going into the email alert space, which is essentially alert space, which is essentially alert space, which is essentially dominated by people like Mention and dominated by people like Mention and dominated by people like Mention and Talker and Buzz Sumo and Google Alerts, Talker and Buzz Sumo and Google Alerts, Talker and Buzz Sumo and Google Alerts, right? And like all these players, and right? And like all these players, and right? And like all these players, and we're like, "Hey, let's go headtohead we're like, "Hey, let's go headtohead we're like, "Hey, let's go headtohead with those guys." And everybody knows with those guys." And everybody knows with those guys." And everybody knows what an email alert does. Everybody what an email alert does. Everybody what an email alert does. Everybody needs it. So, it's it's sort of needs it. So, it's it's sort of needs it. So, it's it's sort of fascinating to like get to play both of fascinating to like get to play both of fascinating to like get to play both of these games as an entrepreneur, right? these games as an entrepreneur, right? these games as an entrepreneur, right? >> Yes, 100%. You know what I was realizing >> Yes, 100%. You know what I was realizing >> Yes, 100%. You know what I was realizing is there's probably a few folks is there's probably a few folks is there's probably a few folks listening who may not be as good at listening who may not be as good at listening who may not be as good at marketing. And in that case, I probably marketing. And in that case, I probably marketing. And in that case, I probably wouldn't suggest market where there's no wouldn't suggest market where there's no wouldn't suggest market where there's no competitors. You have to be able to make competitors. You have to be able to make competitors. You have to be able to make noise and have people pay attention. noise and have people pay attention. noise and have people pay attention. >> You have to. That's the key. You don't >> You have to. That's the key. You don't >> You have to. That's the key. You don't have to define a category, but you kind have to define a category, but you kind have to define a category, but you kind of are.

of are. of are. >> Absolutely. Absolutely. This goes back >> Absolutely. Absolutely. This goes back >> Absolutely. Absolutely. This goes back for our like choose companies that for our like choose companies that for our like choose companies that leverage your strengths and ignore your leverage your strengths and ignore your leverage your strengths and ignore your weaknesses. weaknesses. weaknesses. >> Yeah, exactly. Hounding advice, people. >> Yeah, exactly. Hounding advice, people. >> Yeah, exactly. Hounding advice, people. You got to put it all together if it's You got to put it all together if it's You got to put it all together if it's going to work. This has been really been going to work. This has been really been going to work. This has been really been wonderful. Great conversation. We didn't wonderful. Great conversation. We didn't wonderful. Great conversation. We didn't get to everything, but honestly, we get to everything, but honestly, we get to everything, but honestly, we probably would have taken 2 hours to do probably would have taken 2 hours to do probably would have taken 2 hours to do that and it would have been great. It that and it would have been great. It that and it would have been great. It was great to see you. I hope we get a was great to see you. I hope we get a was great to see you. I hope we get a chance to do it again. chance to do it again. chance to do it again. >> Yeah, real pleasure. Matt, if you find >> Yeah, real pleasure. Matt, if you find >> Yeah, real pleasure. Matt, if you find yourself in uh Seattle, Washington, you yourself in uh Seattle, Washington, you yourself in uh Seattle, Washington, you should uh definitely drop me a line and should uh definitely drop me a line and should uh definitely drop me a line and I hope we get to do this again sometime I hope we get to do this again sometime I hope we get to do this again sometime soon. It's really been a pleasure. Let's soon. It's really been a pleasure. Let's soon. It's really been a pleasure. Let's do it. I appreciate it. Thanks, Randy. do it. I appreciate it. Thanks, Randy. do it. I appreciate it. Thanks, Randy. Take care. Take care. Take care. >> Once again, thank you Dan for joining >> Once again, thank you Dan for joining >> Once again, thank you Dan for joining today's episode of Outfox. If you like today's episode of Outfox. If you like today's episode of Outfox. If you like what you heard, please like, subscribe, what you heard, please like, subscribe, what you heard, please like, subscribe, and explore even more of the Outfox and explore even more of the Outfox and explore even more of the Outfox community by visiting community by visiting community by visiting www.outfoxed.hunter.io. He was Raman Fishiskin. That was Matt He was Raman Fishiskin. That was Matt Tharp. And we're out of time.