Outfoxed Podcast by Hunter.io | Ep. 9 Rahul Jain on influencing purchases in the age of AI

This is Outfox, the podcast brought to This is Outfox, the podcast brought to you by Hunter.io, the trusted B2B lead you by Hunter.io, the trusted B2B lead you by Hunter.io, the trusted B2B lead generation platform built for every generation platform built for every generation platform built for every professional. Get ready for no professional. Get ready for no professional. Get ready for no playbooks, no posturing, and no egos. playbooks, no posturing, and no egos. playbooks, no posturing, and no egos. This is the show for the builders and This is the show for the builders and This is the show for the builders and not the theorists. Let's get into it. not the theorists. Let's get into it. not the theorists. Let's get into it. >> Rahul, welcome to Outf Fox. Great to >> Rahul, welcome to Outf Fox. Great to >> Rahul, welcome to Outf Fox. Great to have you here and um yeah, excited to have you here and um yeah, excited to have you here and um yeah, excited to chat with you in more detail today. chat with you in more detail today. chat with you in more detail today. >> Cool. Thanks for having us, Matt. Or >> Cool. Thanks for having us, Matt. Or >> Cool. Thanks for having us, Matt. Or having me, I should say. having me, I should say. having me, I should say. I love the the team focus that it's I love the the team focus that it's I love the the team focus that it's always a us or a we. That's that's always a us or a we. That's that's always a us or a we. That's that's great. great. great. >> Um well, for for those who have not >> Um well, for for those who have not >> Um well, for for those who have not heard of you or Noble, why don't you why heard of you or Noble, why don't you why heard of you or Noble, why don't you why don't you give us an intro to to Rahul? don't you give us an intro to to Rahul? don't you give us an intro to to Rahul? >> Yeah, absolutely. So, my name is Rahul. >> Yeah, absolutely. So, my name is Rahul. >> Yeah, absolutely. So, my name is Rahul. I'm the CEO and co-founder of Noble. I'm the CEO and co-founder of Noble. I'm the CEO and co-founder of Noble. Noble um is paid placement for AI Noble um is paid placement for AI Noble um is paid placement for AI search. So, we help brands show up in search. So, we help brands show up in search. So, we help brands show up in Google's AI overview, chat GPT, and Google's AI overview, chat GPT, and Google's AI overview, chat GPT, and Perplexity. Um, and specifically the way Perplexity. Um, and specifically the way Perplexity. Um, and specifically the way we do that is we look at the sources we do that is we look at the sources we do that is we look at the sources being cited for the prompts you care being cited for the prompts you care being cited for the prompts you care about and we actually get you mentioned about and we actually get you mentioned about and we actually get you mentioned in those sources and then the idea is in those sources and then the idea is in those sources and then the idea is that you know with how these LLM work if that you know with how these LLM work if that you know with how these LLM work if you're mentioned in the sources that you're mentioned in the sources that you're mentioned in the sources that they're pulling from then you'll show up they're pulling from then you'll show up they're pulling from then you'll show up in the answer that your prospects are in the answer that your prospects are in the answer that your prospects are reading. So certainly see the future of reading. So certainly see the future of reading. So certainly see the future of buying, you know, with AI search and buying, you know, with AI search and buying, you know, with AI search and getting, you know, using these LLMs for getting, you know, using these LLMs for getting, you know, using these LLMs for prospects to do evaluation and research.

prospects to do evaluation and research. prospects to do evaluation and research. And so we help brands um message you And so we help brands um message you And so we help brands um message you show up in the search to convert more show up in the search to convert more show up in the search to convert more more prospects. Prior to starting Noble, more prospects. Prior to starting Noble, more prospects. Prior to starting Noble, I led sales for um digital healthcare I led sales for um digital healthcare I led sales for um digital healthcare companies. So UDA Health and Cedar and companies. So UDA Health and Cedar and companies. So UDA Health and Cedar and the patient payment space. And then the patient payment space. And then the patient payment space. And then prior to that, I was a CEO and prior to that, I was a CEO and prior to that, I was a CEO and co-founder of Tower View Health, which co-founder of Tower View Health, which co-founder of Tower View Health, which was a medication adherence company. I was a medication adherence company. I was a medication adherence company. I started um with my college roommates started um with my college roommates started um with my college roommates back in 2014, back in 2014, back in 2014, >> which I have to say when I was >> which I have to say when I was >> which I have to say when I was researching you, one of the things that researching you, one of the things that researching you, one of the things that jumped out, I was reading about Tower jumped out, I was reading about Tower jumped out, I was reading about Tower Health and I think my first response Health and I think my first response Health and I think my first response was, "Oh gosh, I think I've wanted to was, "Oh gosh, I think I've wanted to was, "Oh gosh, I think I've wanted to create this five times myself create this five times myself create this five times myself personally." And and the older my personally." And and the older my personally." And and the older my parents get, the more important it parents get, the more important it parents get, the more important it becomes. But honestly, the older I get, becomes. But honestly, the older I get, becomes. But honestly, the older I get, the more I think if I could have the more I think if I could have the more I think if I could have something, make sure I'm distributing my something, make sure I'm distributing my something, make sure I'm distributing my like what I need to take every day just like what I need to take every day just like what I need to take every day just for supplements, you know, and not like for supplements, you know, and not like for supplements, you know, and not like I'm on a bunch of like man like I'm on a bunch of like man like I'm on a bunch of like man like remembering. I feel like with all the remembering. I feel like with all the remembering. I feel like with all the distractions in our lives, uh tools that distractions in our lives, uh tools that distractions in our lives, uh tools that can help us manage things like that are can help us manage things like that are can help us manage things like that are really great. So, that's it was a great really great. So, that's it was a great really great. So, that's it was a great idea. Like, and I know that that didn't idea. Like, and I know that that didn't idea. Like, and I know that that didn't work out the way you'd hoped, but I was work out the way you'd hoped, but I was work out the way you'd hoped, but I was like I I love the idea.

like I I love the idea. like I I love the idea. >> No, I appreciate it. And even when we >> No, I appreciate it. And even when we >> No, I appreciate it. And even when we started it, I remember like raising started it, I remember like raising started it, I remember like raising money the first time and then every VC money the first time and then every VC money the first time and then every VC was like, you know, this is a graveyard was like, you know, this is a graveyard was like, you know, this is a graveyard in terms of people that tried ideas in terms of people that tried ideas in terms of people that tried ideas around managing your medications and no around managing your medications and no around managing your medications and no company had really figured it out. And company had really figured it out. And company had really figured it out. And so I I think similar to you that's so I I think similar to you that's so I I think similar to you that's reaction we got where like oh this is a reaction we got where like oh this is a reaction we got where like oh this is a great idea. It's a big need in the great idea. It's a big need in the great idea. It's a big need in the market for users. But then turning it market for users. But then turning it market for users. But then turning it into a viable business is where I think into a viable business is where I think into a viable business is where I think you know where we struggled but I think you know where we struggled but I think you know where we struggled but I think you know probably 50 other companies in you know probably 50 other companies in you know probably 50 other companies in the past decade who were venture back the past decade who were venture back the past decade who were venture back also struggled um to really make it work also struggled um to really make it work also struggled um to really make it work and a lot of learnings in in that and a lot of learnings in in that and a lot of learnings in in that process for sure. I bet. Was there one process for sure. I bet. Was there one process for sure. I bet. Was there one particular thing particular thing particular thing >> about the experience with Tower Hill >> about the experience with Tower Hill >> about the experience with Tower Hill where you kind of walked away and said, where you kind of walked away and said, where you kind of walked away and said, "Okay, well, whatever my next startup "Okay, well, whatever my next startup "Okay, well, whatever my next startup is, is, is, >> I'm absolutely going to do this or not >> I'm absolutely going to do this or not >> I'm absolutely going to do this or not going to do something." Like, was there going to do something." Like, was there going to do something." Like, was there one of those moments? one of those moments? one of those moments? >> I'm absolutely not going to do hardware >> I'm absolutely not going to do hardware >> I'm absolutely not going to do hardware again. It's like you raise venture again. It's like you raise venture again. It's like you raise venture funding and then like half of it goes funding and then like half of it goes funding and then like half of it goes out the door when you do a prototype out the door when you do a prototype out the door when you do a prototype run. It's just like hardware is so run. It's just like hardware is so run. It's just like hardware is so expensive. It's time consuming expensive. It's time consuming expensive. It's time consuming >> and it's just it's really really >> and it's just it's really really >> and it's just it's really really difficult to make good hardware difficult to make good hardware difficult to make good hardware especially for like seniors like we were especially for like seniors like we were especially for like seniors like we were like our users were typically 65 plus like our users were typically 65 plus like our users were typically 65 plus they were elderly and to make hardware they were elderly and to make hardware they were elderly and to make hardware that's intuitive easy for them to use that's intuitive easy for them to use that's intuitive easy for them to use you know connects to the internet you know connects to the internet you know connects to the internet connects you know and has all those connects you know and has all those connects you know and has all those aspects of like a smart device yet it's aspects of like a smart device yet it's aspects of like a smart device yet it's something that they could just like you something that they could just like you something that they could just like you know grab from the box and start using know grab from the box and start using know grab from the box and start using is so so difficult to do but yes I think

is so so difficult to do but yes I think is so so difficult to do but yes I think hardware. It was definitely a learning hardware. It was definitely a learning hardware. It was definitely a learning and we didn't know anything about and we didn't know anything about and we didn't know anything about manufacturing hardware like that's manufacturing hardware like that's manufacturing hardware like that's brutal brutal brutal >> but I I think also broadly like >> but I I think also broadly like >> but I I think also broadly like understanding just like the difference understanding just like the difference understanding just like the difference between your users and your customers between your users and your customers between your users and your customers because we had a model where our because we had a model where our because we had a model where our customers were health insurance customers were health insurance customers were health insurance companies. So it was like the large companies. So it was like the large companies. So it was like the large health plans like the blue cross health plans like the blue cross health plans like the blue cross processes of the world the United processes of the world the United processes of the world the United Healthcare were our customers but then Healthcare were our customers but then Healthcare were our customers but then our users were their members or or the our users were their members or or the our users were their members or or the patients. Um, and so that difference patients. Um, and so that difference patients. Um, and so that difference between who your user is and your between who your user is and your between who your user is and your customer is also really shapes how you customer is also really shapes how you customer is also really shapes how you design your product because the people design your product because the people design your product because the people paying you are not necessarily people paying you are not necessarily people paying you are not necessarily people using your product. And so that's very using your product. And so that's very using your product. And so that's very very difficult because they're just very difficult because they're just very difficult because they're just managing another set of stakeholders. managing another set of stakeholders. managing another set of stakeholders. They have to be really happy with your They have to be really happy with your They have to be really happy with your product even if they're not the one product even if they're not the one product even if they're not the one directly paying or using it. directly paying or using it. directly paying or using it. >> Oh wow. So, you're bringing enterprise >> Oh wow. So, you're bringing enterprise >> Oh wow. So, you're bringing enterprise buying cycle complexity to a consumer buying cycle complexity to a consumer buying cycle complexity to a consumer product, which product, which product, which >> Yeah, that sounds like uh I'm >> Yeah, that sounds like uh I'm >> Yeah, that sounds like uh I'm Congratulations for retaining all of Congratulations for retaining all of Congratulations for retaining all of your hair. your hair. your hair. >> Yeah, we were 23 years old and we were >> Yeah, we were 23 years old and we were >> Yeah, we were 23 years old and we were doing healthcare. We were doing hardware doing healthcare. We were doing hardware doing healthcare. We were doing hardware and we're selling to health insurance and we're selling to health insurance and we're selling to health insurance companies that it's like a a companies that it's like a a companies that it's like a a 24-monthlong sales cycle just to get the 24-monthlong sales cycle just to get the 24-monthlong sales cycle just to get the pilot going.

pilot going. pilot going. >> Oh, yeah. And so I mean in some ways it >> Oh, yeah. And so I mean in some ways it >> Oh, yeah. And so I mean in some ways it it's it taught me a lot about sales and it's it taught me a lot about sales and it's it taught me a lot about sales and I you know it developed that interest I I you know it developed that interest I I you know it developed that interest I have now and and selling to the have now and and selling to the have now and and selling to the enterprise. Um but it was incredibly enterprise. Um but it was incredibly enterprise. Um but it was incredibly incredibly hard to do. Um which is one incredibly hard to do. Um which is one incredibly hard to do. Um which is one of the many reasons it didn't end up of the many reasons it didn't end up of the many reasons it didn't end up working out but good learnings for for working out but good learnings for for working out but good learnings for for the rest of my life. And with noble um the rest of my life. And with noble um the rest of my life. And with noble um it's a fascinating space right like it's a fascinating space right like it's a fascinating space right like we're all facing disruption to buying we're all facing disruption to buying we're all facing disruption to buying cycles from AI entering the conversation cycles from AI entering the conversation cycles from AI entering the conversation literally. And I find it fascinating literally. And I find it fascinating literally. And I find it fascinating that you've taken a different approach that you've taken a different approach that you've taken a different approach to what the sort of standard has been to what the sort of standard has been to what the sort of standard has been like, you know, there's a bunch of what like, you know, there's a bunch of what like, you know, there's a bunch of what I would call prompt evaluating or prompt I would call prompt evaluating or prompt I would call prompt evaluating or prompt tracking type tools. What you're doing tracking type tools. What you're doing tracking type tools. What you're doing is almost more like a service. Uh talk a is almost more like a service. Uh talk a is almost more like a service. Uh talk a little bit more about this because it's little bit more about this because it's little bit more about this because it's like I like that you guys have zagged like I like that you guys have zagged like I like that you guys have zagged while everybody else is kind of while everybody else is kind of while everybody else is kind of following a similar pattern. I'd love to following a similar pattern. I'd love to following a similar pattern. I'd love to hear more about that. Yeah, I think the hear more about that. Yeah, I think the hear more about that. Yeah, I think the first batch of companies that are first batch of companies that are first batch of companies that are focusing on AI search, they're largely focusing on AI search, they're largely focusing on AI search, they're largely um visibility or monitoring tools. Yeah.

um visibility or monitoring tools. Yeah. um visibility or monitoring tools. Yeah. So, they essentially will take the top So, they essentially will take the top So, they essentially will take the top 20 prompts you care about, run them 20 prompts you care about, run them 20 prompts you care about, run them through the LLMs, and then give you a through the LLMs, and then give you a through the LLMs, and then give you a sense of how often you're showing up in sense of how often you're showing up in sense of how often you're showing up in those prompts, right? those prompts, right? those prompts, right? >> They're either skipping the front end or >> They're either skipping the front end or >> They're either skipping the front end or kind of hitting just the backend API. So kind of hitting just the backend API. So kind of hitting just the backend API. So what they do is it's helpful as a as a what they do is it's helpful as a as a what they do is it's helpful as a as a starting point, but just letting you starting point, but just letting you starting point, but just letting you know how often you're showing up in the know how often you're showing up in the know how often you're showing up in the LMS doesn't help you increase that LMS doesn't help you increase that LMS doesn't help you increase that visibility. And the thing that we saw in visibility. And the thing that we saw in visibility. And the thing that we saw in the early days is like in order to the early days is like in order to the early days is like in order to actually show up more often, you need to actually show up more often, you need to actually show up more often, you need to be actually mentioning the sources that be actually mentioning the sources that be actually mentioning the sources that those LLMs are citing. And the challenge those LLMs are citing. And the challenge those LLMs are citing. And the challenge here is typically those sources are not here is typically those sources are not here is typically those sources are not your own website. It is there are third your own website. It is there are third your own website. It is there are third party sources or there even other party sources or there even other party sources or there even other companies in your space that are being companies in your space that are being companies in your space that are being cited. And so then the question becomes cited. And so then the question becomes cited. And so then the question becomes like how do you actually get mentioned like how do you actually get mentioned like how do you actually get mentioned in those sources where you can't just in those sources where you can't just in those sources where you can't just update your website or you can't just update your website or you can't just update your website or you can't just update a page that you own. And so you update a page that you own. And so you update a page that you own. And so you know what we started and we we started know what we started and we we started know what we started and we we started doing this very manually where me and my doing this very manually where me and my doing this very manually where me and my co-founder mostly my co-founder Josh was co-founder mostly my co-founder Josh was co-founder mostly my co-founder Josh was the one who was actually kind of doing the one who was actually kind of doing the one who was actually kind of doing the outreach to these publishers because the outreach to these publishers because the outreach to these publishers because we didn't have a background in SEO. So we didn't have a background in SEO. So we didn't have a background in SEO. So like we didn't come at this from like an like we didn't come at this from like an like we didn't come at this from like an SEO perspective. We came at this from SEO perspective. We came at this from SEO perspective. We came at this from like a we think we know how people are like a we think we know how people are like a we think we know how people are going to buy perspective.

going to buy perspective. going to buy perspective. >> Interesting. And so our lens on this was >> Interesting. And so our lens on this was >> Interesting. And so our lens on this was like we like when we were making our own like we like when we were making our own like we like when we were making our own purchases and evaluating and doing purchases and evaluating and doing purchases and evaluating and doing research, we were using chatbt and research, we were using chatbt and research, we were using chatbt and Google more and more in terms of the Google more and more in terms of the Google more and more in terms of the LLMs. And so it's very clear to us that LLMs. And so it's very clear to us that LLMs. And so it's very clear to us that what you may have like asked a friend what you may have like asked a friend what you may have like asked a friend about in the past now you're turning to about in the past now you're turning to about in the past now you're turning to these LLMs to get research and and these LLMs to get research and and these LLMs to get research and and feedback and advice. And so if you're feedback and advice. And so if you're feedback and advice. And so if you're asking kind of more of these prompts or asking kind of more of these prompts or asking kind of more of these prompts or questions to the LLMs, you're getting questions to the LLMs, you're getting questions to the LLMs, you're getting answers back from them. you're not answers back from them. you're not answers back from them. you're not visiting websites, then from a a brand's visiting websites, then from a a brand's visiting websites, then from a a brand's perspective or from a company's perspective or from a company's perspective or from a company's perspective, you really need to figure perspective, you really need to figure perspective, you really need to figure out how to show up in the LMS because out how to show up in the LMS because out how to show up in the LMS because otherwise your prospects are just otherwise your prospects are just otherwise your prospects are just they're not going to find you. It's it's they're not going to find you. It's it's they're not going to find you. It's it's not like the Google like 10 blue links not like the Google like 10 blue links not like the Google like 10 blue links days where there's always like a page days where there's always like a page days where there's always like a page two where you could show up lower on the two where you could show up lower on the two where you could show up lower on the page. It's kind of all or nothing in page. It's kind of all or nothing in page. It's kind of all or nothing in terms of visibility. terms of visibility. terms of visibility. And what I also see it like in terms of And what I also see it like in terms of And what I also see it like in terms of just like how I see people buying and just like how I see people buying and just like how I see people buying and what this experience will be. I think in what this experience will be. I think in what this experience will be. I think in the future people are not going to leave the future people are not going to leave the future people are not going to leave the LLM to book a demo or to check out.

the LLM to book a demo or to check out. the LLM to book a demo or to check out. I think the experience is largely going I think the experience is largely going I think the experience is largely going to be hosted on chat GPT or on Google to be hosted on chat GPT or on Google to be hosted on chat GPT or on Google where you start with a search prompt. where you start with a search prompt. where you start with a search prompt. They you'll kind of refine that. you'll They you'll kind of refine that. you'll They you'll kind of refine that. you'll ask more follow-up questions and then ask more follow-up questions and then ask more follow-up questions and then you'll have the ability to check out or you'll have the ability to check out or you'll have the ability to check out or book a demo directly on the LLM versus book a demo directly on the LLM versus book a demo directly on the LLM versus today you go to a brand's website and today you go to a brand's website and today you go to a brand's website and you do that. I think all that's going to you do that. I think all that's going to you do that. I think all that's going to get compressed into the LLM because you get compressed into the LLM because you get compressed into the LLM because you know if you're CHP you want to take a know if you're CHP you want to take a know if you're CHP you want to take a percent of that transaction instead of percent of that transaction instead of percent of that transaction instead of just you know having ads that show up. just you know having ads that show up. just you know having ads that show up. So right, So right, So right, >> we kind of saw this as like we think >> we kind of saw this as like we think >> we kind of saw this as like we think that this is the future and how things that this is the future and how things that this is the future and how things are going with just search in general. are going with just search in general. are going with just search in general. And then the biggest question any brand And then the biggest question any brand And then the biggest question any brand is going to ask is well how do we show is going to ask is well how do we show is going to ask is well how do we show up and how do we make sure that we can up and how do we make sure that we can up and how do we make sure that we can actually get in front of our prospects. actually get in front of our prospects. actually get in front of our prospects. Um so that was what really kind of you Um so that was what really kind of you Um so that was what really kind of you know kind of captured our interest in know kind of captured our interest in know kind of captured our interest in this new kind of this new trend and this this new kind of this new trend and this this new kind of this new trend and this rise of LLMs. Um it was not like oh rise of LLMs. Um it was not like oh rise of LLMs. Um it was not like oh we're experts in SEO and so this is just we're experts in SEO and so this is just we're experts in SEO and so this is just the next evolution of SEO. I think it's the next evolution of SEO. I think it's the next evolution of SEO. I think it's actually taking the entire experience on actually taking the entire experience on actually taking the entire experience on the internet and fundamentally shifting the internet and fundamentally shifting the internet and fundamentally shifting it.

it. it. >> I think you're right. I mean, I've >> I think you're right. I mean, I've >> I think you're right. I mean, I've looked at this a lot from a similar looked at this a lot from a similar looked at this a lot from a similar perspective, which is that it's more perspective, which is that it's more perspective, which is that it's more about the fact that B2B buying cycles about the fact that B2B buying cycles about the fact that B2B buying cycles are and I would say like B TOC as well, are and I would say like B TOC as well, are and I would say like B TOC as well, but that the buying cycle that we've but that the buying cycle that we've but that the buying cycle that we've depended on and have have developed a depended on and have have developed a depended on and have have developed a pretty clear understanding of for the pretty clear understanding of for the pretty clear understanding of for the last 20 years. It's the buying cycle last 20 years. It's the buying cycle last 20 years. It's the buying cycle itself that's getting thoroughly itself that's getting thoroughly itself that's getting thoroughly disrupted. And so you you can't just disrupted. And so you you can't just disrupted. And so you you can't just simply think like, oh, whatever I did simply think like, oh, whatever I did simply think like, oh, whatever I did with SEO, I'm just going to do that with with SEO, I'm just going to do that with with SEO, I'm just going to do that with LLMs. I think some of that is similar LLMs. I think some of that is similar LLMs. I think some of that is similar like what you're describing effectively like what you're describing effectively like what you're describing effectively the SEO playbook around that is like the SEO playbook around that is like the SEO playbook around that is like link building, right? So you're you're link building, right? So you're you're link building, right? So you're you're productizing productizing productizing the step that you would have to take the step that you would have to take the step that you would have to take once you analyze the data and decide, oh once you analyze the data and decide, oh once you analyze the data and decide, oh yeah, we need better placement here. yeah, we need better placement here. yeah, we need better placement here. You're just saying, I'm just going to You're just saying, I'm just going to You're just saying, I'm just going to skip to the end and say, this is the skip to the end and say, this is the skip to the end and say, this is the thing. If you want to be placed here, thing. If you want to be placed here, thing. If you want to be placed here, you know, we can help with that. Yeah, you know, we can help with that. Yeah, you know, we can help with that. Yeah, that's super interesting. It makes a lot that's super interesting. It makes a lot that's super interesting. It makes a lot of sense. of sense. of sense. >> Yeah. And I think with link building and >> Yeah. And I think with link building and >> Yeah. And I think with link building and like honestly I didn't even know what like honestly I didn't even know what like honestly I didn't even know what link building was six months ago. And so link building was six months ago. And so link building was six months ago. And so like when I learned it, it's it's like when I learned it, it's it's like when I learned it, it's it's something that typically agencies do, something that typically agencies do, something that typically agencies do, but with now with these software agents but with now with these software agents but with now with these software agents that you could build, it's like the that you could build, it's like the that you could build, it's like the function of what a person would do now function of what a person would do now function of what a person would do now software can do.

software can do. software can do. >> That's how we've essentially productized >> That's how we've essentially productized >> That's how we've essentially productized this. The other thing that I find really this. The other thing that I find really this. The other thing that I find really interesting about these kind of these interesting about these kind of these interesting about these kind of these off-site mentions in the sources is that off-site mentions in the sources is that off-site mentions in the sources is that unlike link building which just kind of unlike link building which just kind of unlike link building which just kind of helped you incrementally, you know, show helped you incrementally, you know, show helped you incrementally, you know, show up higher in the search result in the up higher in the search result in the up higher in the search result in the like the 10 blue links with the like the 10 blue links with the like the 10 blue links with the mentions, you could actually you'll mentions, you could actually you'll mentions, you could actually you'll guarantee that the prospect is reading guarantee that the prospect is reading guarantee that the prospect is reading your answer or read like reading about your answer or read like reading about your answer or read like reading about you because you actually show up in the you because you actually show up in the you because you actually show up in the answer. So, it's much more direct, like answer. So, it's much more direct, like answer. So, it's much more direct, like get in front of the prospect versus with get in front of the prospect versus with get in front of the prospect versus with link building, it could help you over link building, it could help you over link building, it could help you over time show up higher in the search time show up higher in the search time show up higher in the search results, but you still wouldn't know results, but you still wouldn't know results, but you still wouldn't know people like clicked on the link and people like clicked on the link and people like clicked on the link and actually read your article. Um, with the actually read your article. Um, with the actually read your article. Um, with the LLMs, if you actually show up in the LLMs, if you actually show up in the LLMs, if you actually show up in the answer, it's almost, you know, you're answer, it's almost, you know, you're answer, it's almost, you know, you're guaranteed to get that visibility then. guaranteed to get that visibility then. guaranteed to get that visibility then. So, so your your hypothesis for the So, so your your hypothesis for the So, so your your hypothesis for the business is that uh being cited or being business is that uh being cited or being business is that uh being cited or being in part of the citations is what in part of the citations is what in part of the citations is what ultimately determines being mentioned ultimately determines being mentioned ultimately determines being mentioned and so let's build a product that that and so let's build a product that that and so let's build a product that that targets the citation piece knowing that targets the citation piece knowing that targets the citation piece knowing that kind of the rest of it is just how LLM's kind of the rest of it is just how LLM's kind of the rest of it is just how LLM's work.

work. work. >> Yeah. I I think um there's a lot of >> Yeah. I I think um there's a lot of >> Yeah. I I think um there's a lot of research around this and this is also research around this and this is also research around this and this is also just how LLMs work where the primary just how LLMs work where the primary just how LLMs work where the primary kind of factor that influences the kind of factor that influences the kind of factor that influences the search results and the brands mentioned search results and the brands mentioned search results and the brands mentioned are whether or not that brand is are whether or not that brand is are whether or not that brand is mentioned in the sources being cited by mentioned in the sources being cited by mentioned in the sources being cited by the LLM. So, you know, mathematically the LLM. So, you know, mathematically the LLM. So, you know, mathematically that's kind of how LLM's work. And like that's kind of how LLM's work. And like that's kind of how LLM's work. And like AHF's, you know, did a good research AHF's, you know, did a good research AHF's, you know, did a good research study on this that said the top study on this that said the top study on this that said the top influencers of what actually shows up in influencers of what actually shows up in influencers of what actually shows up in the LLM like search answer is based off the LLM like search answer is based off the LLM like search answer is based off of off-site mentions and getting your of off-site mentions and getting your of off-site mentions and getting your brand essentially mentioned in the brand essentially mentioned in the brand essentially mentioned in the sources being cited by the LLM. And in sources being cited by the LLM. And in sources being cited by the LLM. And in particular, this is relevant for like particular, this is relevant for like particular, this is relevant for like category level searches. to like what is category level searches. to like what is category level searches. to like what is the best CRM for an early stage company the best CRM for an early stage company the best CRM for an early stage company or like what is the best call recording or like what is the best call recording or like what is the best call recording tool or like what is the best you know tool or like what is the best you know tool or like what is the best you know whatever the category is because that whatever the category is because that whatever the category is because that that's the point that prospects are that's the point that prospects are that's the point that prospects are doing research to try to understand what doing research to try to understand what doing research to try to understand what is out there certainly when you're then is out there certainly when you're then is out there certainly when you're then you know looking at specific products so you know looking at specific products so you know looking at specific products so like this is we're using Riverside for like this is we're using Riverside for like this is we're using Riverside for this recording so if you were to ask this recording so if you were to ask this recording so if you were to ask chatbt or Google like you know how does chatbt or Google like you know how does chatbt or Google like you know how does Riverside work or how does Riverside Riverside work or how does Riverside Riverside work or how does Riverside compare to Zoom or something else like compare to Zoom or something else like compare to Zoom or something else like then yes it'll go to the Riverside then yes it'll go to the Riverside then yes it'll go to the Riverside website and look at that specific brand.

website and look at that specific brand. website and look at that specific brand. But if you're asking at the category But if you're asking at the category But if you're asking at the category level like what is out there and what level like what is out there and what level like what is out there and what should I be evaluating, that's where should I be evaluating, that's where should I be evaluating, that's where third party sources are incredibly third party sources are incredibly third party sources are incredibly valuable and getting mentioned in those valuable and getting mentioned in those valuable and getting mentioned in those sources will help you more than anything sources will help you more than anything sources will help you more than anything show up in the actual answers. show up in the actual answers. show up in the actual answers. >> Now I imagine I imagine your buyer is >> Now I imagine I imagine your buyer is >> Now I imagine I imagine your buyer is very different for this company. very different for this company. very different for this company. >> Yeah. So >> Yeah. So >> Yeah. So >> how did you figure out your ICP for >> how did you figure out your ICP for >> how did you figure out your ICP for this? this? this? >> Yeah. So we um and it's even like it's >> Yeah. So we um and it's even like it's >> Yeah. So we um and it's even like it's an evolution today. So we started this an evolution today. So we started this an evolution today. So we started this thinking that like okay this is like AI thinking that like okay this is like AI thinking that like okay this is like AI SEO called AEO called GEO like there's a SEO called AEO called GEO like there's a SEO called AEO called GEO like there's a million different acronyms floating million different acronyms floating million different acronyms floating around and so we initially thought that around and so we initially thought that around and so we initially thought that okay if this is going to be the SEO okay if this is going to be the SEO okay if this is going to be the SEO person at the company who is making person at the company who is making person at the company who is making these decisions and trying to help that these decisions and trying to help that these decisions and trying to help that brand show up more then we should go to brand show up more then we should go to brand show up more then we should go to the SEO person and once we kind of the SEO person and once we kind of the SEO person and once we kind of started like launching this version of started like launching this version of started like launching this version of Noble we've had a lot of success um Noble we've had a lot of success um Noble we've had a lot of success um selling essentially to the whoever leads selling essentially to the whoever leads selling essentially to the whoever leads SEO at that brand. What we're also kind SEO at that brand. What we're also kind SEO at that brand. What we're also kind of in the process of evaluating is of in the process of evaluating is of in the process of evaluating is essentially seeing if we can position essentially seeing if we can position essentially seeing if we can position Noble not just as an SEO tool, but as a Noble not just as an SEO tool, but as a Noble not just as an SEO tool, but as a new paid growth channel. So essentially new paid growth channel. So essentially new paid growth channel. So essentially not just saying like, oh, you have not just saying like, oh, you have not just saying like, oh, you have LinkedIn ads, you have Google ads, but LinkedIn ads, you have Google ads, but LinkedIn ads, you have Google ads, but now you could actually pay the place now you could actually pay the place now you could actually pay the place within the LLM. So can we from an ICP within the LLM. So can we from an ICP within the LLM. So can we from an ICP perspective also go after the growth perspective also go after the growth perspective also go after the growth marketer who's in charge of their paid marketer who's in charge of their paid marketer who's in charge of their paid budget? And the reason that I'm budget? And the reason that I'm budget? And the reason that I'm interested in this is like the paid interested in this is like the paid interested in this is like the paid budgets are like 10 times larger than budgets are like 10 times larger than budgets are like 10 times larger than the SEO budget. And so if we can make an the SEO budget. And so if we can make an the SEO budget. And so if we can make an argument to whoever like owns that paid argument to whoever like owns that paid argument to whoever like owns that paid budget that you should give a certain

budget that you should give a certain budget that you should give a certain percentage of your budget to Noble to percentage of your budget to Noble to percentage of your budget to Noble to show up in these LLMs, then that's just show up in these LLMs, then that's just show up in these LLMs, then that's just a much larger like ACV that we can a much larger like ACV that we can a much larger like ACV that we can command. command. command. >> Yeah, it makes sense. I mean that >> Yeah, it makes sense. I mean that >> Yeah, it makes sense. I mean that finding the people who have budget to finding the people who have budget to finding the people who have budget to spend is why there's lots of really spend is why there's lots of really spend is why there's lots of really great sales and marketing tools um and great sales and marketing tools um and great sales and marketing tools um and why that's constantly being uh evolved. why that's constantly being uh evolved. why that's constantly being uh evolved. So it's interesting though what I you I So it's interesting though what I you I So it's interesting though what I you I heard you say the SEO person but for a heard you say the SEO person but for a heard you say the SEO person but for a lot of companies they just don't have lot of companies they just don't have lot of companies they just don't have SEO expertise internally. How I'm SEO expertise internally. How I'm SEO expertise internally. How I'm curious did that become apparent pretty curious did that become apparent pretty curious did that become apparent pretty quickly or did that take a little while quickly or did that take a little while quickly or did that take a little while before that pattern surfaced? before that pattern surfaced? before that pattern surfaced? We actually realized that pretty We actually realized that pretty We actually realized that pretty quickly, but it's also a factor of the quickly, but it's also a factor of the quickly, but it's also a factor of the stage of the company. We kind of stage of the company. We kind of stage of the company. We kind of realized that larger company is if they realized that larger company is if they realized that larger company is if they have an SEO person, then they're just have an SEO person, then they're just have an SEO person, then they're just naturally they're larger, their naturally they're larger, their naturally they're larger, their marketing team is larger. So that also marketing team is larger. So that also marketing team is larger. So that also gives us an idea of like, well, they gives us an idea of like, well, they gives us an idea of like, well, they probably have more of a budget to spend. probably have more of a budget to spend. probably have more of a budget to spend. So actually whether or not you have So actually whether or not you have So actually whether or not you have somebody in house who leads SEO is a somebody in house who leads SEO is a somebody in house who leads SEO is a good proxy for how mature your company good proxy for how mature your company good proxy for how mature your company is and what potential budget you may is and what potential budget you may is and what potential budget you may have to spend on this. And if you don't have to spend on this. And if you don't have to spend on this. And if you don't have an SEO person, it's probably your have an SEO person, it's probably your have an SEO person, it's probably your head of demand genen who would be the head of demand genen who would be the head of demand genen who would be the buyer. Um, so the demand generation buyer. Um, so the demand generation buyer. Um, so the demand generation marketer or potentially just, you know, marketer or potentially just, you know, marketer or potentially just, you know, who whoever that marketing person is at who whoever that marketing person is at who whoever that marketing person is at at the company. I do think for this at the company. I do think for this at the company. I do think for this product like yes, like this is something product like yes, like this is something product like yes, like this is something that startups could use, but if you're that startups could use, but if you're that startups could use, but if you're that seed stage or series A startup, that seed stage or series A startup, that seed stage or series A startup, this might be a little bit too early for this might be a little bit too early for this might be a little bit too early for for you. And we're also trying to for you. And we're also trying to for you. And we're also trying to position this product to focus on more

position this product to focus on more position this product to focus on more enterprises and like mid-market and like enterprises and like mid-market and like enterprises and like mid-market and like grow stage companies purely because like grow stage companies purely because like grow stage companies purely because like we're relatively new in the market and we're relatively new in the market and we're relatively new in the market and we want to be able to charge more for we want to be able to charge more for we want to be able to charge more for the product. Um we certainly can scale the product. Um we certainly can scale the product. Um we certainly can scale it down to have a price point that does it down to have a price point that does it down to have a price point that does make sense for an early stage company make sense for an early stage company make sense for an early stage company that wants to show up in LLM. Um, but that wants to show up in LLM. Um, but that wants to show up in LLM. Um, but going back to like the ICP, I think us going back to like the ICP, I think us going back to like the ICP, I think us starting with the SEO person also helped starting with the SEO person also helped starting with the SEO person also helped me understand that like if you just had me understand that like if you just had me understand that like if you just had somebody who runs SEO at the company, somebody who runs SEO at the company, somebody who runs SEO at the company, you're probably a mature company and you're probably a mature company and you're probably a mature company and that probably even makes it more that probably even makes it more that probably even makes it more interesting for us to to talk to you interesting for us to to talk to you interesting for us to to talk to you because you probably have a budget for because you probably have a budget for because you probably have a budget for them to use, them to use, them to use, >> right? At a minimum, you've got somebody >> right? At a minimum, you've got somebody >> right? At a minimum, you've got somebody who if you need them to spend a couple who if you need them to spend a couple who if you need them to spend a couple hundred a month, they probably can. hundred a month, they probably can. hundred a month, they probably can. Whereas, Whereas, Whereas, >> yeah, if you're trying to sell to >> yeah, if you're trying to sell to >> yeah, if you're trying to sell to somebody else in the org, you've got to somebody else in the org, you've got to somebody else in the org, you've got to get attention and time. And then you've get attention and time. And then you've get attention and time. And then you've got yeah a budget to worry about. So how got yeah a budget to worry about. So how got yeah a budget to worry about. So how you know look I think first time you know look I think first time you know look I think first time entrepreneurs will swear that if you entrepreneurs will swear that if you entrepreneurs will swear that if you build it people just show up. Uh how did build it people just show up. Uh how did build it people just show up. Uh how did you guys what did you have to do to try you guys what did you have to do to try you guys what did you have to do to try to get those first those first to get those first those first to get those first those first customers? customers? customers? >> Yeah initially it was all um you know >> Yeah initially it was all um you know >> Yeah initially it was all um you know introductions through our network and so introductions through our network and so introductions through our network and so we essentially you know we've been in we essentially you know we've been in we essentially you know we've been in the sales and marketing space for the the sales and marketing space for the the sales and marketing space for the last two years. And so our the original last two years. And so our the original last two years. And so our the original product that we launched at Noble was product that we launched at Noble was product that we launched at Noble was around word of mouth recommendations. So around word of mouth recommendations. So around word of mouth recommendations. So back when we started this, you know, back when we started this, you know, back when we started this, you know, about two years ago, our thesis was like about two years ago, our thesis was like about two years ago, our thesis was like the entire SAS market is so crowded that the entire SAS market is so crowded that the entire SAS market is so crowded that people are just asking their friends for people are just asking their friends for people are just asking their friends for recommendations because they want to cut recommendations because they want to cut recommendations because they want to cut through the noise. And while that was through the noise. And while that was through the noise. And while that was true, ultimately we just ran into legal true, ultimately we just ran into legal true, ultimately we just ran into legal and privacy issues because, you know,

and privacy issues because, you know, and privacy issues because, you know, understandably, these companies were understandably, these companies were understandably, these companies were like, we can't show prospects which of like, we can't show prospects which of like, we can't show prospects which of their friends use the product without their friends use the product without their friends use the product without the consent of their friend, the consent of their friend, the consent of their friend, >> right? And so like essentially it was >> right? And so like essentially it was >> right? And so like essentially it was kind of like okay like we're probably kind of like okay like we're probably kind of like okay like we're probably going to hit a ceiling in terms of how going to hit a ceiling in terms of how going to hit a ceiling in terms of how big this product can get. And then at big this product can get. And then at big this product can get. And then at the time like the LLMs were just taking the time like the LLMs were just taking the time like the LLMs were just taking off. And so it became apparent that that off. And so it became apparent that that off. And so it became apparent that that quote unquote friend that you're asking quote unquote friend that you're asking quote unquote friend that you're asking for recommendations and advice is going for recommendations and advice is going for recommendations and advice is going to be the LLM that you turn to for to be the LLM that you turn to for to be the LLM that you turn to for product recommendations and advice. And product recommendations and advice. And product recommendations and advice. And so then it became very clear that like so then it became very clear that like so then it became very clear that like you know how do act like how do you know how do act like how do you know how do act like how do companies actually show up in these companies actually show up in these companies actually show up in these LLMs? and it wasn't as easy as like SEO LLMs? and it wasn't as easy as like SEO LLMs? and it wasn't as easy as like SEO or wasn't as straightforward as SEO. or wasn't as straightforward as SEO. or wasn't as straightforward as SEO. >> And so that's kind of how we pivoted >> And so that's kind of how we pivoted >> And so that's kind of how we pivoted into this. But I say that to say that we into this. But I say that to say that we into this. But I say that to say that we we spent two years selling to people in we spent two years selling to people in we spent two years selling to people in sales and marketing. So we had an sales and marketing. So we had an sales and marketing. So we had an existing customer base already and we existing customer base already and we existing customer base already and we already had relationships in the already had relationships in the already had relationships in the industry with people who were industry with people who were industry with people who were essentially leading marketing or they essentially leading marketing or they essentially leading marketing or they did demand genen. And so essentially did demand genen. And so essentially did demand genen. And so essentially what I was was doing was essentially what I was was doing was essentially what I was was doing was essentially going back to my contacts I had a good going back to my contacts I had a good going back to my contacts I had a good relationship with and saying like, "Hey, relationship with and saying like, "Hey, relationship with and saying like, "Hey, can you introduce me to your SEO person?

can you introduce me to your SEO person? can you introduce me to your SEO person? I want their feedback on what we're I want their feedback on what we're I want their feedback on what we're building." And then I would use that building." And then I would use that building." And then I would use that session to get quote unquote feedback, session to get quote unquote feedback, session to get quote unquote feedback, but then I'd ask them like, "Oh, like but then I'd ask them like, "Oh, like but then I'd ask them like, "Oh, like this seems like something that you find this seems like something that you find this seems like something that you find pretty interesting. Would you want to pretty interesting. Would you want to pretty interesting. Would you want to like test this out?" And so that's kind like test this out?" And so that's kind like test this out?" And so that's kind of how I would go from like asking for of how I would go from like asking for of how I would go from like asking for advice to being like, "Well, do you want advice to being like, "Well, do you want advice to being like, "Well, do you want to, you know, be a customer of ours?" to, you know, be a customer of ours?" to, you know, be a customer of ours?" I mean, that's a great look, I I think a I mean, that's a great look, I I think a I mean, that's a great look, I I think a lot of people who start companies find lot of people who start companies find lot of people who start companies find themselves in a pivot. This we I'm I themselves in a pivot. This we I'm I themselves in a pivot. This we I'm I don't think that's a controversial don't think that's a controversial don't think that's a controversial statement. Um, and yet I think one of statement. Um, and yet I think one of statement. Um, and yet I think one of the things that a lot of folks worry the things that a lot of folks worry the things that a lot of folks worry about is how do I try to leverage about is how do I try to leverage about is how do I try to leverage whatever I've gained in terms of whatever I've gained in terms of whatever I've gained in terms of customer awareness into a pivot? And customer awareness into a pivot? And customer awareness into a pivot? And that can be really, really challenging. that can be really, really challenging. that can be really, really challenging. But I think the way you described it But I think the way you described it But I think the way you described it >> is probably the best way to to do it. >> is probably the best way to to do it. >> is probably the best way to to do it. That's great. Yeah, pivots are hard That's great. Yeah, pivots are hard That's great. Yeah, pivots are hard because I think at the core of it, you because I think at the core of it, you because I think at the core of it, you also have to admit that you were wrong also have to admit that you were wrong also have to admit that you were wrong or you know the timing of your first or you know the timing of your first or you know the timing of your first product just it's not the right time for product just it's not the right time for product just it's not the right time for this or whatever it is it just it didn't this or whatever it is it just it didn't this or whatever it is it just it didn't work which is hard because like I think work which is hard because like I think work which is hard because like I think there's always there's always there's always >> this desire for a founder to just want >> this desire for a founder to just want >> this desire for a founder to just want to keep pushing through and to be like to keep pushing through and to be like to keep pushing through and to be like hey this is going to work we just need hey this is going to work we just need hey this is going to work we just need to get to a certain level of scale and to get to a certain level of scale and to get to a certain level of scale and then things will change and I think like then things will change and I think like then things will change and I think like at least for us like we're running out at least for us like we're running out at least for us like we're running out of money um and we're like we have a few of money um and we're like we have a few of money um and we're like we have a few months left let's just throw throw months left let's just throw throw months left let's just throw throw something together and let's see if we something together and let's see if we something together and let's see if we can capture some, you know, demand and can capture some, you know, demand and can capture some, you know, demand and interest in the market. We did. We start interest in the market. We did. We start interest in the market. We did. We start started to see traction immediately and started to see traction immediately and started to see traction immediately and then we were able to raise more money then we were able to raise more money then we were able to raise more money off the back of like that that traction.

off the back of like that that traction. off the back of like that that traction. But kind of having that moment of being But kind of having that moment of being But kind of having that moment of being like, well, you know, this really isn't like, well, you know, this really isn't like, well, you know, this really isn't working. Are we okay with admitting that working. Are we okay with admitting that working. Are we okay with admitting that and then trying to do something over the and then trying to do something over the and then trying to do something over the summer to really figure it out and then, summer to really figure it out and then, summer to really figure it out and then, you know, essentially starting from you know, essentially starting from you know, essentially starting from scratch? Because for us it's like yes we scratch? Because for us it's like yes we scratch? Because for us it's like yes we have the relationships in the industry have the relationships in the industry have the relationships in the industry but I think what we were looking at is but I think what we were looking at is but I think what we were looking at is like you know if we can start any new like you know if we can start any new like you know if we can start any new company right now in this moment what do company right now in this moment what do company right now in this moment what do we want to do that we think would be we want to do that we think would be we want to do that we think would be successful that would solve a real successful that would solve a real successful that would solve a real problem and we weren't necessarily problem and we weren't necessarily problem and we weren't necessarily looking at it from the perspective of looking at it from the perspective of looking at it from the perspective of like well what have we already built like well what have we already built like well what have we already built that we could leverage again from a that we could leverage again from a that we could leverage again from a technology perspective or we also technology perspective or we also technology perspective or we also weren't looking at it necessarily from weren't looking at it necessarily from weren't looking at it necessarily from the perspective of like who do we have the perspective of like who do we have the perspective of like who do we have relationships with that we could sell to relationships with that we could sell to relationships with that we could sell to again again again >> right >> right >> right >> um but we happen to kind of fall into >> um but we happen to kind of fall into >> um but we happen to kind of fall into that second bucket which obviously was that second bucket which obviously was that second bucket which obviously was very helpful once we had an idea to go very helpful once we had an idea to go very helpful once we had an idea to go to market with a product but it was more to market with a product but it was more to market with a product but it was more so just like a what is a problem that we so just like a what is a problem that we so just like a what is a problem that we think is a priority and I would say think is a priority and I would say think is a priority and I would say that's actually the biggest difference that's actually the biggest difference that's actually the biggest difference in the reception we're getting by in the reception we're getting by in the reception we're getting by focusing on AI search than we did by focusing on AI search than we did by focusing on AI search than we did by focusing on like word of mouth focusing on like word of mouth focusing on like word of mouth recommendations or warm intros in that I recommendations or warm intros in that I recommendations or warm intros in that I don't have to tell prospects that this don't have to tell prospects that this don't have to tell prospects that this is something that they should care about is something that they should care about is something that they should care about they're trying to figure it out and they're trying to figure it out and they're trying to figure it out and that's that that just makes such a big that's that that just makes such a big that's that that just makes such a big difference when you're trying to sell to difference when you're trying to sell to difference when you're trying to sell to somebody because you have this somebody because you have this somebody because you have this conversation and they're like, "Oh, our conversation and they're like, "Oh, our conversation and they're like, "Oh, our board was talking about this or like, board was talking about this or like, board was talking about this or like, you know, our our CEO keeps asking me you know, our our CEO keeps asking me you know, our our CEO keeps asking me like why we're not showing up in chat."

like why we're not showing up in chat." like why we're not showing up in chat." And so the fact that there's already And so the fact that there's already And so the fact that there's already urgency around it, you know, that makes urgency around it, you know, that makes urgency around it, you know, that makes just a world of difference when you're just a world of difference when you're just a world of difference when you're trying to get traction with a new trying to get traction with a new trying to get traction with a new product or just a new idea. Now that product or just a new idea. Now that product or just a new idea. Now that said, at the same time, said, at the same time, said, at the same time, >> this industry has acquired attracted >> this industry has acquired attracted >> this industry has acquired attracted lots of competitors and so I find this lots of competitors and so I find this lots of competitors and so I find this moment in time for you really, really moment in time for you really, really moment in time for you really, really educational for people who are listening educational for people who are listening educational for people who are listening because how many of us have bought an because how many of us have bought an because how many of us have bought an idea, started it, invested some time, idea, started it, invested some time, idea, started it, invested some time, various levels of time and energy only various levels of time and energy only various levels of time and energy only to see a competitor and have that like to see a competitor and have that like to see a competitor and have that like steal the wind from our sales, you know? steal the wind from our sales, you know? steal the wind from our sales, you know? talk about that aspect of Noble because talk about that aspect of Noble because talk about that aspect of Noble because I have to imagine you guys are going I have to imagine you guys are going I have to imagine you guys are going through that process right now and that through that process right now and that through that process right now and that probably has occurred to you at least probably has occurred to you at least probably has occurred to you at least once in the last few weeks. I'd love for once in the last few weeks. I'd love for once in the last few weeks. I'd love for Yeah. Can you are you willing to be open Yeah. Can you are you willing to be open Yeah. Can you are you willing to be open about this because this about this because this about this because this >> Yeah. I mean I say I experienced this on >> Yeah. I mean I say I experienced this on >> Yeah. I mean I say I experienced this on the other end with my first company the other end with my first company the other end with my first company because we were in the kind of the because we were in the kind of the because we were in the kind of the medication management space. medication management space. medication management space. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And at the time there's a company called >> And at the time there's a company called >> And at the time there's a company called Pillpack that was acquired by Amazon for Pillpack that was acquired by Amazon for Pillpack that was acquired by Amazon for close to a billion dollars. So we were a close to a billion dollars. So we were a close to a billion dollars. So we were a company that was shutting down and at company that was shutting down and at company that was shutting down and at almost the same time you know a similar almost the same time you know a similar almost the same time you know a similar type of company or idea was getting type of company or idea was getting type of company or idea was getting acquired by Amazon for a billion acquired by Amazon for a billion acquired by Amazon for a billion dollars. So just like you know that not dollars. So just like you know that not dollars. So just like you know that not that it could have been us but you see that it could have been us but you see that it could have been us but you see how just like the strategy you have and how just like the strategy you have and how just like the strategy you have and some of the ways you approach the market some of the ways you approach the market some of the ways you approach the market can have completely different outcomes.

can have completely different outcomes. can have completely different outcomes. >> Yeah. Um, and I think that's very >> Yeah. Um, and I think that's very >> Yeah. Um, and I think that's very applicable to kind of the AI search applicable to kind of the AI search applicable to kind of the AI search market right now where you have to have market right now where you have to have market right now where you have to have a unique point of view and you have to a unique point of view and you have to a unique point of view and you have to be doing something that actually moves be doing something that actually moves be doing something that actually moves the needle versus trying to do just a the needle versus trying to do just a the needle versus trying to do just a little bit of everything or just trying little bit of everything or just trying little bit of everything or just trying to just like kind of ride the tailwind to just like kind of ride the tailwind to just like kind of ride the tailwind around the market just thinking if I do around the market just thinking if I do around the market just thinking if I do like anything around AI search it'll be like anything around AI search it'll be like anything around AI search it'll be like relevant enough because it's a huge like relevant enough because it's a huge like relevant enough because it's a huge category. there's a lot of money that's category. there's a lot of money that's category. there's a lot of money that's going to be spent, which is good in a going to be spent, which is good in a going to be spent, which is good in a lot of ways, but it's going to attract lot of ways, but it's going to attract lot of ways, but it's going to attract very smart people as well. And so, if very smart people as well. And so, if very smart people as well. And so, if you don't have something that really you don't have something that really you don't have something that really stands out, that's really differentiated stands out, that's really differentiated stands out, that's really differentiated and that can like just like capture and that can like just like capture and that can like just like capture prospects attention and interest prospects attention and interest prospects attention and interest quickly, it's going to be very very quickly, it's going to be very very quickly, it's going to be very very tough. And so, what we did specifically tough. And so, what we did specifically tough. And so, what we did specifically is we saw that with the visibility is we saw that with the visibility is we saw that with the visibility trackers that those were going to become trackers that those were going to become trackers that those were going to become a commodity very quickly. And yeah, a commodity very quickly. And yeah, a commodity very quickly. And yeah, we're having this conversation in mid we're having this conversation in mid we're having this conversation in mid November. Amplitude launched a free November. Amplitude launched a free November. Amplitude launched a free version of version of version of >> like what a month ago.

>> like what a month ago. >> like what a month ago. >> Yeah. So it's like we can kind of see >> Yeah. So it's like we can kind of see >> Yeah. So it's like we can kind of see the writing on the wall where there was the writing on the wall where there was the writing on the wall where there was no defensibility in terms of just like no defensibility in terms of just like no defensibility in terms of just like hitting the APIs or scraping the front hitting the APIs or scraping the front hitting the APIs or scraping the front end on these these searches. And so the end on these these searches. And so the end on these these searches. And so the other thing we were trying to think other thing we were trying to think other thing we were trying to think about is like reporting is always about is like reporting is always about is like reporting is always helpful, but that doesn't necessarily helpful, but that doesn't necessarily helpful, but that doesn't necessarily help you increase your visibility, help you increase your visibility, help you increase your visibility, right? So if we did one thing and did right? So if we did one thing and did right? So if we did one thing and did one thing really really really well, one thing really really really well, one thing really really really well, what would that one thing be? And as we what would that one thing be? And as we what would that one thing be? And as we learned more about AALM's work, it learned more about AALM's work, it learned more about AALM's work, it became clear that it's just a game of became clear that it's just a game of became clear that it's just a game of getting mentioned in the sources being getting mentioned in the sources being getting mentioned in the sources being cited. And if you can figure out how to cited. And if you can figure out how to cited. And if you can figure out how to do that, that's almost like a cheat code do that, that's almost like a cheat code do that, that's almost like a cheat code around, you know, what typical around, you know, what typical around, you know, what typical approaches would be because like approaches would be because like approaches would be because like typically with like SEO, you create a typically with like SEO, you create a typically with like SEO, you create a ton of content or you get a lot of back ton of content or you get a lot of back ton of content or you get a lot of back links. But if there's a way that you can links. But if there's a way that you can links. But if there's a way that you can essentially jump over all those steps essentially jump over all those steps essentially jump over all those steps and just reach out to the publisher or and just reach out to the publisher or and just reach out to the publisher or the author of an article and just get the author of an article and just get the author of an article and just get you mentioned in that article, then that you mentioned in that article, then that you mentioned in that article, then that essentially is, you know, a way to essentially is, you know, a way to essentially is, you know, a way to guarantee, you know, that your prospects guarantee, you know, that your prospects guarantee, you know, that your prospects probably see you in the answer as long probably see you in the answer as long probably see you in the answer as long as that source is still being cited. So as that source is still being cited. So as that source is still being cited. So I think we wanted to focus on doing one I think we wanted to focus on doing one I think we wanted to focus on doing one thing really well from a product thing really well from a product thing really well from a product perspective kind of have that be our perspective kind of have that be our perspective kind of have that be our wedge into the market and then we can wedge into the market and then we can wedge into the market and then we can expand from there. But at the time I expand from there. But at the time I expand from there. But at the time I think this also helped us that we were think this also helped us that we were think this also helped us that we were probably like a year after like the probably like a year after like the probably like a year after like the profounds and the scrunches and the profounds and the scrunches and the profounds and the scrunches and the Athenas and the peaks kind of all the Athenas and the peaks kind of all the Athenas and the peaks kind of all the early entrance into the space. So we early entrance into the space. So we early entrance into the space. So we could see what everybody was doing and could see what everybody was doing and could see what everybody was doing and then we could different approach to the then we could different approach to the then we could different approach to the market. Whereas if we tried this a year

market. Whereas if we tried this a year market. Whereas if we tried this a year ago, we probably may have fallen into ago, we probably may have fallen into ago, we probably may have fallen into like the same go to market and like like the same go to market and like like the same go to market and like product roadmap that they they all have product roadmap that they they all have product roadmap that they they all have today. Yeah. So how do you this is today. Yeah. So how do you this is today. Yeah. So how do you this is fascinating. I think this is a really fascinating. I think this is a really fascinating. I think this is a really great case study in real time because great case study in real time because great case study in real time because like h you're you're talking to buyers like h you're you're talking to buyers like h you're you're talking to buyers that this is an urgent need. Like you that this is an urgent need. Like you that this is an urgent need. Like you can't have a business that depends on can't have a business that depends on can't have a business that depends on SEO or search traffic or website traffic SEO or search traffic or website traffic SEO or search traffic or website traffic without thinking this is existential, without thinking this is existential, without thinking this is existential, right? Maybe it's 1% of ret traffic, right? Maybe it's 1% of ret traffic, right? Maybe it's 1% of ret traffic, maybe it's five, but right now it's maybe it's five, but right now it's maybe it's five, but right now it's probably really low. But the fear of the probably really low. But the fear of the probably really low. But the fear of the disruption, I think, is is tremendous. disruption, I think, is is tremendous. disruption, I think, is is tremendous. And I think it's I think it's realistic. And I think it's I think it's realistic. And I think it's I think it's realistic. So, you're talking to people who are So, you're talking to people who are So, you're talking to people who are thinking about this. You're you're not thinking about this. You're you're not thinking about this. You're you're not trying to do all things. You're not trying to do all things. You're not trying to do all things. You're not saying, "Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's it's saying, "Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's it's saying, "Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's it's profound plus a bunch of other stuff, profound plus a bunch of other stuff, profound plus a bunch of other stuff, right?" Um, are you finding that people right?" Um, are you finding that people right?" Um, are you finding that people are hearing that? Are they are they are hearing that? Are they are they are hearing that? Are they are they saying, "Oh, we'll just get two things." saying, "Oh, we'll just get two things." saying, "Oh, we'll just get two things." like how do you find that that kind of like how do you find that that kind of like how do you find that that kind of positioning is working for you? positioning is working for you? positioning is working for you? >> Yeah, I think luckily there is so much >> Yeah, I think luckily there is so much >> Yeah, I think luckily there is so much interest in the space that people interest in the space that people interest in the space that people started to do research to actually started to do research to actually started to do research to actually understand how to get mentioned in these understand how to get mentioned in these understand how to get mentioned in these LLMs. So when we talk to them and I say LLMs. So when we talk to them and I say LLMs. So when we talk to them and I say like you know what we do is we like you know what we do is we like you know what we do is we specifically get you mentioned in the specifically get you mentioned in the specifically get you mentioned in the sources that these LM are citing that sources that these LM are citing that sources that these LM are citing that clicks for them.

clicks for them. clicks for them. >> Got it. If you didn't have any education >> Got it. If you didn't have any education >> Got it. If you didn't have any education in the space and they're like well what in the space and they're like well what in the space and they're like well what does that do like why would that help does that do like why would that help does that do like why would that help us? then it would be a much harder sell us? then it would be a much harder sell us? then it would be a much harder sell because then I have to educate them on because then I have to educate them on because then I have to educate them on how LLMs work. But I I do think that how LLMs work. But I I do think that how LLMs work. But I I do think that because this is like a top two or three because this is like a top two or three because this is like a top two or three priority for I think most marketing priority for I think most marketing priority for I think most marketing teams out there, they have done the teams out there, they have done the teams out there, they have done the research to actually understand well how research to actually understand well how research to actually understand well how do we even show up in these LLMs and do we even show up in these LLMs and do we even show up in these LLMs and what's driving that visibility. So we what's driving that visibility. So we what's driving that visibility. So we have a conversation like our approach have a conversation like our approach have a conversation like our approach resonates with them. So that's been resonates with them. So that's been resonates with them. So that's been really helpful. And then, you know, really helpful. And then, you know, really helpful. And then, you know, there are teams that, you know, may not there are teams that, you know, may not there are teams that, you know, may not be as educated on how these LLMs work, be as educated on how these LLMs work, be as educated on how these LLMs work, but if they have somebody who does SEO but if they have somebody who does SEO but if they have somebody who does SEO inhouse, that SEO person will definitely inhouse, that SEO person will definitely inhouse, that SEO person will definitely definitely know um kind of what's definitely know um kind of what's definitely know um kind of what's driving visibility in AI search. Today's driving visibility in AI search. Today's driving visibility in AI search. Today's episode is brought to you by hunter.io, episode is brought to you by hunter.io, episode is brought to you by hunter.io, the B2B lead generation platform made the B2B lead generation platform made the B2B lead generation platform made for every professional. Whether it's for every professional. Whether it's for every professional. Whether it's prospecting, fundraising, recruiting, prospecting, fundraising, recruiting, prospecting, fundraising, recruiting, link building, or just trying to connect link building, or just trying to connect link building, or just trying to connect with the right people, Hunter makes it with the right people, Hunter makes it with the right people, Hunter makes it easy. I'm listening to this and and the easy. I'm listening to this and and the easy. I'm listening to this and and the thing that occurs to me is that you've thing that occurs to me is that you've thing that occurs to me is that you've got to be do you feel a whiplash effect got to be do you feel a whiplash effect got to be do you feel a whiplash effect like like the first time you get in a like like the first time you get in a like like the first time you get in a car that can go 0 to 60 in less than 3 car that can go 0 to 60 in less than 3 car that can go 0 to 60 in less than 3 seconds, that head getting pressed seconds, that head getting pressed seconds, that head getting pressed against the back uh is a pretty against the back uh is a pretty against the back uh is a pretty incredible feeling. And I would imagine incredible feeling. And I would imagine incredible feeling. And I would imagine going from a hardwarebased startup to going from a hardwarebased startup to going from a hardwarebased startup to this industry specifically, are you this industry specifically, are you this industry specifically, are you getting a little bit of that head getting a little bit of that head getting a little bit of that head pressed against the the back rest?

pressed against the the back rest? pressed against the the back rest? >> You know, fingers crossed things have >> You know, fingers crossed things have >> You know, fingers crossed things have been good. Like we we just pivoted over been good. Like we we just pivoted over been good. Like we we just pivoted over a few months into this. a few months into this. a few months into this. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> From zero to over half a million dollars >> From zero to over half a million dollars >> From zero to over half a million dollars in the R in like two months. in the R in like two months. in the R in like two months. >> So things are moving very quickly. The >> So things are moving very quickly. The >> So things are moving very quickly. The contract sizes are, you know, 50k plus contract sizes are, you know, 50k plus contract sizes are, you know, 50k plus for just like an average size company. for just like an average size company. for just like an average size company. So I I do think that this is something So I I do think that this is something So I I do think that this is something that can grow quickly, but it also has that can grow quickly, but it also has that can grow quickly, but it also has defensibility because like ultimately defensibility because like ultimately defensibility because like ultimately what we're building is a marketplace what we're building is a marketplace what we're building is a marketplace between brands who want to show up in between brands who want to show up in between brands who want to show up in these LLMs and publishers who want to these LLMs and publishers who want to these LLMs and publishers who want to get paid for their content. So if we can get paid for their content. So if we can get paid for their content. So if we can create this network of publishers which create this network of publishers which create this network of publishers which you know that is the network effect that you know that is the network effect that you know that is the network effect that we're effectively like building and that we're effectively like building and that we're effectively like building and that we can benefit from then as other we can benefit from then as other we can benefit from then as other companies try to enter the space or try companies try to enter the space or try companies try to enter the space or try to copy us they're going to have to to copy us they're going to have to to copy us they're going to have to start from scratch to build this network start from scratch to build this network start from scratch to build this network of publishers specifically. So I I do of publishers specifically. So I I do of publishers specifically. So I I do like that about our approach is like like that about our approach is like like that about our approach is like it's not like most AI companies just it's not like most AI companies just it's not like most AI companies just like there's not really any like there's not really any like there's not really any defensibility. I do think that there is defensibility. I do think that there is defensibility. I do think that there is a very strong network effect with what a very strong network effect with what a very strong network effect with what we're building as we aggregate we're building as we aggregate we're building as we aggregate publishers um that join our network.

publishers um that join our network. publishers um that join our network. >> So this is not your first rodeo. This is >> So this is not your first rodeo. This is >> So this is not your first rodeo. This is a second time founder CEO, right? a second time founder CEO, right? a second time founder CEO, right? >> Yes. Yeah. >> Yes. Yeah. >> Yes. Yeah. >> Do you consider yourself a salesperson? >> Do you consider yourself a salesperson? >> Do you consider yourself a salesperson? >> Ah, this is so funny. Um I don't. And >> Ah, this is so funny. Um I don't. And >> Ah, this is so funny. Um I don't. And that was actually the hardest thing when that was actually the hardest thing when that was actually the hardest thing when we shut down my first company because I we shut down my first company because I we shut down my first company because I had to take a sales job. And so I went had to take a sales job. And so I went had to take a sales job. And so I went from being a founder CEO when I was 24 from being a founder CEO when I was 24 from being a founder CEO when I was 24 and we shut down the company when I was and we shut down the company when I was and we shut down the company when I was 29. And then I went from being a founder 29. And then I went from being a founder 29. And then I went from being a founder CEO, which I I identified as, to CEO, which I I identified as, to CEO, which I I identified as, to somebody who led sales at a startup, and somebody who led sales at a startup, and somebody who led sales at a startup, and it was it was a great company who worked it was it was a great company who worked it was it was a great company who worked with really smart people. But I I I with really smart people. But I I I with really smart people. But I I I never thought of myself as a never thought of myself as a never thought of myself as a salesperson. And I I talked to the CEO salesperson. And I I talked to the CEO salesperson. And I I talked to the CEO who was my who I reported to about this. who was my who I reported to about this. who was my who I reported to about this. I'm like I never like you know it's so I'm like I never like you know it's so I'm like I never like you know it's so weird to introduce myself as like VP of weird to introduce myself as like VP of weird to introduce myself as like VP of sales at this company like that's not sales at this company like that's not sales at this company like that's not what I think of myself and like my wife what I think of myself and like my wife what I think of myself and like my wife and I have had this conversation before and I have had this conversation before and I have had this conversation before around just like identity and and what around just like identity and and what around just like identity and and what >> and so that's why when I went from >> and so that's why when I went from >> and so that's why when I went from selling to then you know starting selling to then you know starting selling to then you know starting another company there was a part of me another company there was a part of me another company there was a part of me that just like felt like this is like that just like felt like this is like that just like felt like this is like what I feel fulfilled doing because I what I feel fulfilled doing because I what I feel fulfilled doing because I was back in a role that you know I felt was back in a role that you know I felt was back in a role that you know I felt just like not just like more proud just like not just like more proud just like not just like more proud about like if I felt more aligned with about like if I felt more aligned with about like if I felt more aligned with like how I think of myself even though like how I think of myself even though like how I think of myself even though from a functional perspective you know from a functional perspective you know from a functional perspective you know 90% of my job is sales like it's still 90% of my job is sales like it's still 90% of my job is sales like it's still the same thing but it is and it's not the same thing but it is and it's not the same thing but it is and it's not just the title but it's also just like I just the title but it's also just like I just the title but it's also just like I think it's the idea of creating think it's the idea of creating think it's the idea of creating something from scratch you know and

something from scratch you know and something from scratch you know and essentially just bringing that into the essentially just bringing that into the essentially just bringing that into the world that I I just love to associate world that I I just love to associate world that I I just love to associate myself and think of myself as doing myself and think of myself as doing myself and think of myself as doing that. So, so by the way, this is like that. So, so by the way, this is like that. So, so by the way, this is like the sort of internal argument of my the sort of internal argument of my the sort of internal argument of my life, right? Because you're right. As life, right? Because you're right. As life, right? Because you're right. As CEO founder, you're selling everybody CEO founder, you're selling everybody CEO founder, you're selling everybody all the time. Like the whole job is all the time. Like the whole job is all the time. Like the whole job is basically selling, but not you don't. basically selling, but not you don't. basically selling, but not you don't. But I think most CEO founders do not But I think most CEO founders do not But I think most CEO founders do not identify with themselves as salespeople. identify with themselves as salespeople. identify with themselves as salespeople. And yet, if you think about some of the And yet, if you think about some of the And yet, if you think about some of the most successful CEOs, like that's most successful CEOs, like that's most successful CEOs, like that's effectively what their superpower is, effectively what their superpower is, effectively what their superpower is, despite not wanting to use it as an IC. despite not wanting to use it as an IC. despite not wanting to use it as an IC. But I find this idea, this sort of But I find this idea, this sort of But I find this idea, this sort of cognitive conflict really fascinating. cognitive conflict really fascinating. cognitive conflict really fascinating. Um, and and actually you pinpointed the Um, and and actually you pinpointed the Um, and and actually you pinpointed the key friction for me, which is that as key friction for me, which is that as key friction for me, which is that as somebody who sees myself as a creative, somebody who sees myself as a creative, somebody who sees myself as a creative, a a builder, that is not like the core a a builder, that is not like the core a a builder, that is not like the core value of a salesperson. And yet you were value of a salesperson. And yet you were value of a salesperson. And yet you were you did sales full-time. So like you you did sales full-time. So like you you did sales full-time. So like you have to figure out how to harness the have to figure out how to harness the have to figure out how to harness the qualities of it. How do you how do you qualities of it. How do you how do you qualities of it. How do you how do you reconcile that as CEO founder that it is reconcile that as CEO founder that it is reconcile that as CEO founder that it is in fact a big part of your identity even in fact a big part of your identity even in fact a big part of your identity even though you might not name it as such?

though you might not name it as such? though you might not name it as such? >> It's a good question. I I think from a >> It's a good question. I I think from a >> It's a good question. I I think from a functional perspective I think it's just functional perspective I think it's just functional perspective I think it's just realizing that the role is sales across realizing that the role is sales across realizing that the role is sales across different like aspects like different like aspects like different like aspects like >> you're selling people to join you. So >> you're selling people to join you. So >> you're selling people to join you. So like recruiting is sales like recruiting is sales like recruiting is sales >> obviously you're selling customers for >> obviously you're selling customers for >> obviously you're selling customers for revenue. You're selling investors for revenue. You're selling investors for revenue. You're selling investors for funding. Like it's it's constant funding. Like it's it's constant funding. Like it's it's constant pitching that you're doing. I think also pitching that you're doing. I think also pitching that you're doing. I think also the difference here is like when you're the difference here is like when you're the difference here is like when you're a founder, it's so emotional because a founder, it's so emotional because a founder, it's so emotional because like in some ways every time you get like in some ways every time you get like in some ways every time you get rejected, it's personal. Whereas like rejected, it's personal. Whereas like rejected, it's personal. Whereas like when you you're selling a product and when you you're selling a product and when you you're selling a product and you're like a VP of sales at another you're like a VP of sales at another you're like a VP of sales at another company, it's like if they say no, it's company, it's like if they say no, it's company, it's like if they say no, it's like well like well like well >> they said no. Like you just you move on. >> they said no. Like you just you move on. >> they said no. Like you just you move on. And like it's And like it's And like it's >> I didn't take those rejections as as >> I didn't take those rejections as as >> I didn't take those rejections as as personal as I do when it's your own like personal as I do when it's your own like personal as I do when it's your own like company because it's like your your own company because it's like your your own company because it's like your your own baby. It's like they don't like what I baby. It's like they don't like what I baby. It's like they don't like what I created and it's much more personal than created and it's much more personal than created and it's much more personal than >> well my job is to sell this product. >> well my job is to sell this product. >> well my job is to sell this product. They don't like it. Okay, fine. Like They don't like it. Okay, fine. Like They don't like it. Okay, fine. Like they have all these these reasons like they have all these these reasons like they have all these these reasons like I'll check in with them in a few months I'll check in with them in a few months I'll check in with them in a few months and we'll we'll figure something out.

and we'll we'll figure something out. and we'll we'll figure something out. But I I think that that's probably the But I I think that that's probably the But I I think that that's probably the harder part about it is just like the harder part about it is just like the harder part about it is just like the emotional investment and just like how emotional investment and just like how emotional investment and just like how how much you care about every sale, how much you care about every sale, how much you care about every sale, every conversation, whether it's hiring, every conversation, whether it's hiring, every conversation, whether it's hiring, you know, selling or fundraising, but you know, selling or fundraising, but you know, selling or fundraising, but it's all different aspects of sales. it's all different aspects of sales. it's all different aspects of sales. It's so true. I I love this. You're It's so true. I I love this. You're It's so true. I I love this. You're right. Because if you're in sales, right. Because if you're in sales, right. Because if you're in sales, you're managing a pipeline. You the you're managing a pipeline. You the you're managing a pipeline. You the pipeline is your product, right? And the pipeline is your product, right? And the pipeline is your product, right? And the conversations are just data points about conversations are just data points about conversations are just data points about the product. But when you're a C every the product. But when you're a C every the product. But when you're a C every single there is no pipeline. These are single there is no pipeline. These are single there is no pipeline. These are all potential users who you want to fall all potential users who you want to fall all potential users who you want to fall in love with your baby. And yeah, every in love with your baby. And yeah, every in love with your baby. And yeah, every single one of them that rejects you is single one of them that rejects you is single one of them that rejects you is it feels like a rejection. You don't it feels like a rejection. You don't it feels like a rejection. You don't think about it as a pipeline and a think about it as a pipeline and a think about it as a pipeline and a percentage and all that. Yeah, it's a percentage and all that. Yeah, it's a percentage and all that. Yeah, it's a it's a really good point. But the it's a really good point. But the it's a really good point. But the transition from founder selling to transition from founder selling to transition from founder selling to hiring a sales person and a sales team, hiring a sales person and a sales team, hiring a sales person and a sales team, it sounds like you've actually been on it sounds like you've actually been on it sounds like you've actually been on both sides of that. both sides of that. both sides of that. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Yeah. And >> Yeah. And >> Yeah. And the thing I will say about like how I the thing I will say about like how I the thing I will say about like how I approached this now like approached this now like approached this now like and I think it's because I saw myself in and I think it's because I saw myself in and I think it's because I saw myself in this role like with with another company this role like with with another company this role like with with another company when another founder CEO hired me is when another founder CEO hired me is when another founder CEO hired me is like I want to hire work with like I like I want to hire work with like I like I want to hire work with like I guess hire somebody I've worked with in guess hire somebody I've worked with in guess hire somebody I've worked with in the past so I know that's just how good the past so I know that's just how good the past so I know that's just how good they are but like kind of what their they are but like kind of what their they are but like kind of what their level of quality is in terms of just level of quality is in terms of just level of quality is in terms of just like how much they care. Like I think so like how much they care. Like I think so like how much they care. Like I think so much of sales comes down to just like do much of sales comes down to just like do much of sales comes down to just like do you care? And because if you care, you care? And because if you care, you care? And because if you care, you're going to do all the follow-ups.

you're going to do all the follow-ups. you're going to do all the follow-ups. You're going to go after like not just You're going to go after like not just You're going to go after like not just the leads that you're given, but you're the leads that you're given, but you're the leads that you're given, but you're going to do like that prospecting going to do like that prospecting going to do like that prospecting yourself. Um, you're also typically like yourself. Um, you're also typically like yourself. Um, you're also typically like the face of the company for a lot of the face of the company for a lot of the face of the company for a lot of these clients because that's who they these clients because that's who they these clients because that's who they see instead of like say the CEO. see instead of like say the CEO. see instead of like say the CEO. >> And if you hire a good first >> And if you hire a good first >> And if you hire a good first salesperson, then they can ultimately salesperson, then they can ultimately salesperson, then they can ultimately build out the team. like they started as build out the team. like they started as build out the team. like they started as an IC, they learned the ropes, they an IC, they learned the ropes, they an IC, they learned the ropes, they learned the pitch, they learned the learned the pitch, they learned the learned the pitch, they learned the objections, and then you know, you can objections, and then you know, you can objections, and then you know, you can kind of trust them with growing growing kind of trust them with growing growing kind of trust them with growing growing the team from there and probably hiring the team from there and probably hiring the team from there and probably hiring underneath them. Um, so as I started underneath them. Um, so as I started underneath them. Um, so as I started like Noble the second time around, one like Noble the second time around, one like Noble the second time around, one of the benefits of doing sales for of the benefits of doing sales for of the benefits of doing sales for another company is I got to meet other another company is I got to meet other another company is I got to meet other salespeople. And so that was great salespeople. And so that was great salespeople. And so that was great because I kind of created this network because I kind of created this network because I kind of created this network of who I thought were exceptional of who I thought were exceptional of who I thought were exceptional salespeople at my last job. And so as I salespeople at my last job. And so as I salespeople at my last job. And so as I look to kind of grow Noble and like you look to kind of grow Noble and like you look to kind of grow Noble and like you know ultimately grow an enterprise sales know ultimately grow an enterprise sales know ultimately grow an enterprise sales team, the first people I'm going to and team, the first people I'm going to and team, the first people I'm going to and I've been talking to them like for the I've been talking to them like for the I've been talking to them like for the past two years just kind of like keeping past two years just kind of like keeping past two years just kind of like keeping that thread going uh is because that's that thread going uh is because that's that thread going uh is because that's exactly who I want to pull from because exactly who I want to pull from because exactly who I want to pull from because I've worked with them before. I know I've worked with them before. I know I've worked with them before. I know their level of just ambition and just their level of just ambition and just their level of just ambition and just how much they care and that also is so how much they care and that also is so how much they care and that also is so important for just like the culture of important for just like the culture of important for just like the culture of the team because I I do feel like the team because I I do feel like the team because I I do feel like they're like you also meet a lot of they're like you also meet a lot of they're like you also meet a lot of sales people who are not just like point sales people who are not just like point sales people who are not just like point operated but they just like all they operated but they just like all they operated but they just like all they care about is just closing the deal and care about is just closing the deal and care about is just closing the deal and like you know they don't necessarily like you know they don't necessarily like you know they don't necessarily care about like all the other aspects of care about like all the other aspects of care about like all the other aspects of company building but I think when you company building but I think when you company building but I think when you meet like a good salesperson they do meet like a good salesperson they do meet like a good salesperson they do care about the culture they care about care about the culture they care about care about the culture they care about like not like feedback that they're like not like feedback that they're like not like feedback that they're getting from the clients like how the getting from the clients like how the getting from the clients like how the product team is taking that feedback product team is taking that feedback product team is taking that feedback back. Um, and I I think it also just

back. Um, and I I think it also just back. Um, and I I think it also just like helps improve the overall company like helps improve the overall company like helps improve the overall company and the business and the go to market and the business and the go to market and the business and the go to market team is like cares more than just like team is like cares more than just like team is like cares more than just like hitting their hitting their hitting their >> Yeah. Yeah. That's um, have you found a >> Yeah. Yeah. That's um, have you found a >> Yeah. Yeah. That's um, have you found a trick trick trick >> to help you find those people? >> to help you find those people? >> to help you find those people? >> I developing a two-year relationship is >> I developing a two-year relationship is >> I developing a two-year relationship is not a that's not really a playbook not a that's not really a playbook not a that's not really a playbook that's repeatable. that's repeatable. that's repeatable. >> Yeah, it's a good question. I mean >> Yeah, it's a good question. I mean >> Yeah, it's a good question. I mean luckily like I think initially I'll I'll luckily like I think initially I'll I'll luckily like I think initially I'll I'll definitely go after people who I've definitely go after people who I've definitely go after people who I've worked with but then I think from there worked with but then I think from there worked with but then I think from there I would ask the people who I hire to see I would ask the people who I hire to see I would ask the people who I hire to see who they've worked with in the past like who they've worked with in the past like who they've worked with in the past like I do think with sales like it's not your I do think with sales like it's not your I do think with sales like it's not your resume like I don't care if you've resume like I don't care if you've resume like I don't care if you've worked at a big Fortune50 company and worked at a big Fortune50 company and worked at a big Fortune50 company and like like crush quota like every company like like crush quota like every company like like crush quota like every company is unique every product is unique every is unique every product is unique every is unique every product is unique every buyer is unique but what I think you buyer is unique but what I think you buyer is unique but what I think you really need like you need to have worked really need like you need to have worked really need like you need to have worked with somebody in the past and you need with somebody in the past and you need with somebody in the past and you need to actually know if they're good and if to actually know if they're good and if to actually know if they're good and if they care and other sales people know they care and other sales people know they care and other sales people know this about their colleagues based off this about their colleagues based off this about their colleagues based off how they interact with them and even how they interact with them and even how they interact with them and even just like how they work together. Like just like how they work together. Like just like how they work together. Like if you work with somebody that helps you if you work with somebody that helps you if you work with somebody that helps you out as a salesperson as a team player, out as a salesperson as a team player, out as a salesperson as a team player, like that goes a long way to be like, like that goes a long way to be like, like that goes a long way to be like, "Yeah, I want to work with this guy "Yeah, I want to work with this guy "Yeah, I want to work with this guy again." Not just because like he or she again." Not just because like he or she again." Not just because like he or she like crushed their quota and like they like crushed their quota and like they like crushed their quota and like they did well, but they made the whole team did well, but they made the whole team did well, but they made the whole team better.

better. better. >> Um so I I do think part of it is like, >> Um so I I do think part of it is like, >> Um so I I do think part of it is like, you know, just like have you worked with you know, just like have you worked with you know, just like have you worked with these people before? But I think also if these people before? But I think also if these people before? But I think also if you're looking to hire, you've got to do you're looking to hire, you've got to do you're looking to hire, you've got to do like a little test. Like you've just got like a little test. Like you've just got like a little test. Like you've just got to for me at least it's like getting a to for me at least it's like getting a to for me at least it's like getting a sense of how much is this person willing sense of how much is this person willing sense of how much is this person willing to grind and care because I think you to grind and care because I think you to grind and care because I think you know people understand like the know people understand like the know people understand like the fundamentals of sales like I I think fundamentals of sales like I I think fundamentals of sales like I I think that everybody can learn the pitch they that everybody can learn the pitch they that everybody can learn the pitch they can learn the product they can learn the can learn the product they can learn the can learn the product they can learn the space but I think what I try to do is space but I think what I try to do is space but I think what I try to do is like if I hadn't worked with somebody in like if I hadn't worked with somebody in like if I hadn't worked with somebody in the past what I would just try to test the past what I would just try to test the past what I would just try to test is their effort level and how much they is their effort level and how much they is their effort level and how much they would care and sometimes that's just would care and sometimes that's just would care and sometimes that's just like a giving them like an assignment or like a giving them like an assignment or like a giving them like an assignment or a project that might take them a ton of a project that might take them a ton of a project that might take them a ton of time. It might be complete busy work and time. It might be complete busy work and time. It might be complete busy work and just like just with with the total like just like just with with the total like just like just with with the total like all I'm looking to see is like do you all I'm looking to see is like do you all I'm looking to see is like do you care enough to complete this project as care enough to complete this project as care enough to complete this project as part of the interview process. Um and part of the interview process. Um and part of the interview process. Um and that's me just testing out like are you that's me just testing out like are you that's me just testing out like are you willing to grind enough for this role? willing to grind enough for this role? willing to grind enough for this role? If so, like that's what I care about If so, like that's what I care about If so, like that's what I care about because inherently I think anybody who because inherently I think anybody who because inherently I think anybody who we're talking to, they're going to be we're talking to, they're going to be we're talking to, they're going to be smart. They're going to like be well smart. They're going to like be well smart. They're going to like be well spoken. like they're going to be all spoken. like they're going to be all spoken. like they're going to be all those things that you can kind of assess those things that you can kind of assess those things that you can kind of assess in an interview, but it's harder to in an interview, but it's harder to in an interview, but it's harder to assess just like what is your level of assess just like what is your level of assess just like what is your level of grit and how hard you work.

grit and how hard you work. grit and how hard you work. >> I mean, I think that's true with almost >> I mean, I think that's true with almost >> I mean, I think that's true with almost every role actually in a if you're sub every role actually in a if you're sub every role actually in a if you're sub 50 people, I feel like that should be 50 people, I feel like that should be 50 people, I feel like that should be like the number one set of criteria for like the number one set of criteria for like the number one set of criteria for how you how you hire anybody is trying how you how you hire anybody is trying how you how you hire anybody is trying to find that grit. Do you guys do I'm to find that grit. Do you guys do I'm to find that grit. Do you guys do I'm I'm trying to think of your motion here. I'm trying to think of your motion here. I'm trying to think of your motion here. I would imagine outbound could be really I would imagine outbound could be really I would imagine outbound could be really effective for you. Is that something you effective for you. Is that something you effective for you. Is that something you guys have invested much in yet? we guys have invested much in yet? we guys have invested much in yet? we haven't invested in it much yet. Um, but haven't invested in it much yet. Um, but haven't invested in it much yet. Um, but I do think it will be effective. Um, so I do think it will be effective. Um, so I do think it will be effective. Um, so right now kind of given where we are, we right now kind of given where we are, we right now kind of given where we are, we have a lot of like referrals within our have a lot of like referrals within our have a lot of like referrals within our network that's driving our business. And network that's driving our business. And network that's driving our business. And like we also have a really nice kind of like we also have a really nice kind of like we also have a really nice kind of growth loop into our product where when growth loop into our product where when growth loop into our product where when we reach out to publishers we reach out to publishers we reach out to publishers >> to mention our clients in their article. >> to mention our clients in their article. >> to mention our clients in their article. A lot of time those publishers are other A lot of time those publishers are other A lot of time those publishers are other companies or other vendors and so companies or other vendors and so companies or other vendors and so they'll get our outreach email and they'll get our outreach email and they'll get our outreach email and they'll be like, "Oh, you're doing this they'll be like, "Oh, you're doing this they'll be like, "Oh, you're doing this for company X. Can you do this for me as for company X. Can you do this for me as for company X. Can you do this for me as well?" So that was kind of an unexpected well?" So that was kind of an unexpected well?" So that was kind of an unexpected growth loop. From an outbound growth loop. From an outbound growth loop. From an outbound perspective, I think one thing that we perspective, I think one thing that we perspective, I think one thing that we will try is like giving out kind of this will try is like giving out kind of this will try is like giving out kind of this free gap analysis where it's like, hey, free gap analysis where it's like, hey, free gap analysis where it's like, hey, like here is here's your brand. Here are like here is here's your brand. Here are like here is here's your brand. Here are probably problems you care about. We probably problems you care about. We probably problems you care about. We just ran this for you. Here's how often just ran this for you. Here's how often just ran this for you. Here's how often you're showing up in EI search. Here's you're showing up in EI search. Here's you're showing up in EI search. Here's how you're doing relative to your how you're doing relative to your how you're doing relative to your competitors. You know, do you want us to competitors. You know, do you want us to competitors. You know, do you want us to help you get mentioned in these sources?

help you get mentioned in these sources? help you get mentioned in these sources? And just starting with that as like a And just starting with that as like a And just starting with that as like a free outbound like tool or kind of free outbound like tool or kind of free outbound like tool or kind of offering to give them. I think something offering to give them. I think something offering to give them. I think something like that could be effective. Um, I also like that could be effective. Um, I also like that could be effective. Um, I also think it's it's a huge market and at think it's it's a huge market and at think it's it's a huge market and at least right now and hopefully like in least right now and hopefully like in least right now and hopefully like in the future it it will be top of- mind the future it it will be top of- mind the future it it will be top of- mind for marketers. So, I do think that that for marketers. So, I do think that that for marketers. So, I do think that that also helps when you do an outbound also helps when you do an outbound also helps when you do an outbound motion. So, it's something that we motion. So, it's something that we motion. So, it's something that we haven't done a lot of yet, but I I haven't done a lot of yet, but I I haven't done a lot of yet, but I I definitely do think we're going to definitely do think we're going to definitely do think we're going to invest in that. invest in that. invest in that. >> Well, darn. I can't pepper you with >> Well, darn. I can't pepper you with >> Well, darn. I can't pepper you with questions about your tech stack, your go questions about your tech stack, your go questions about your tech stack, your go to market uh your go to market software, to market uh your go to market software, to market uh your go to market software, but that's okay. we can avoid the but that's okay. we can avoid the but that's okay. we can avoid the shameless plug for our sponsor Hunter, shameless plug for our sponsor Hunter, shameless plug for our sponsor Hunter, whose awesome hat I'm wearing for whose awesome hat I'm wearing for whose awesome hat I'm wearing for today's podcast. Um, today's podcast. Um, today's podcast. Um, >> we do use Hunter for email verification. >> we do use Hunter for email verification. >> we do use Hunter for email verification. So, So, So, >> there he is. >> there he is. >> there he is. >> Shout out to Hunter on that. >> Shout out to Hunter on that. >> Shout out to Hunter on that. >> Shout out to the best email verification >> Shout out to the best email verification >> Shout out to the best email verification in the space right now. For sure. That's in the space right now. For sure. That's in the space right now. For sure. That's awesome. I'm glad to hear it. Thanks for awesome. I'm glad to hear it. Thanks for awesome. I'm glad to hear it. Thanks for supporting the plug. supporting the plug. supporting the plug. >> Of course, >> Of course, >> Of course, >> really appreciate your openness. I think >> really appreciate your openness. I think >> really appreciate your openness. I think this is it's really been fun just to this is it's really been fun just to this is it's really been fun just to hear your perspective and your hear your perspective and your hear your perspective and your experience going through what I think experience going through what I think experience going through what I think all of us experience in different ways all of us experience in different ways all of us experience in different ways and just being able to hear I guess your and just being able to hear I guess your and just being able to hear I guess your lessons I think has been fantastic. Is lessons I think has been fantastic. Is lessons I think has been fantastic. Is there I guess if there's one thing that there I guess if there's one thing that there I guess if there's one thing that you're thinking about that you've been you're thinking about that you've been you're thinking about that you've been like really excited by whether it's just like really excited by whether it's just like really excited by whether it's just like personal like I I learned this like personal like I I learned this like personal like I I learned this thing. I now know this thing. I'm so thing. I now know this thing. I'm so thing. I now know this thing. I'm so excited about the fact that I know this excited about the fact that I know this excited about the fact that I know this thing that I didn't know before. Like do thing that I didn't know before. Like do thing that I didn't know before. Like do you have any either advice or lesson you have any either advice or lesson you have any either advice or lesson that you've learned recently that you that you've learned recently that you that you've learned recently that you want to share? I was thinking about this want to share? I was thinking about this want to share? I was thinking about this when you you asked a question a few when you you asked a question a few when you you asked a question a few minutes ago about like kind of not just

minutes ago about like kind of not just minutes ago about like kind of not just like how we're operating differently like how we're operating differently like how we're operating differently like as a second time founder versus like as a second time founder versus like as a second time founder versus first- time founder um but also like as first- time founder um but also like as first- time founder um but also like as you build a team like in how I interact you build a team like in how I interact you build a team like in how I interact with the team. I will say like even with with the team. I will say like even with with the team. I will say like even with my co-founder the second time around my co-founder the second time around my co-founder the second time around versus my co-founders for the first versus my co-founders for the first versus my co-founders for the first company is I don't not when not that I company is I don't not when not that I company is I don't not when not that I did try to act like I had all the did try to act like I had all the did try to act like I had all the answers but I always tried to act like I answers but I always tried to act like I answers but I always tried to act like I was unstoppable or like you know when we was unstoppable or like you know when we was unstoppable or like you know when we run into a roadblock block it's okay run into a roadblock block it's okay run into a roadblock block it's okay like we're going to figure this out like like we're going to figure this out like like we're going to figure this out like I think now I I I try to be a bit more I think now I I I try to be a bit more I think now I I I try to be a bit more and just kind of let them in to how I'm and just kind of let them in to how I'm and just kind of let them in to how I'm actually feeling so I feel like I'm a actually feeling so I feel like I'm a actually feeling so I feel like I'm a part of the team versus just like oh part of the team versus just like oh part of the team versus just like oh this like fearless leader. It's just this like fearless leader. It's just this like fearless leader. It's just like always like oh like you know like always like oh like you know like always like oh like you know gung-ho and like we're going to figure gung-ho and like we're going to figure gung-ho and like we're going to figure this out. I know all the answers. I this out. I know all the answers. I this out. I know all the answers. I think now when we get those setbacks I think now when we get those setbacks I think now when we get those setbacks I try to just share with the team candidly try to just share with the team candidly try to just share with the team candidly like how I'm feeling so that I feel like like how I'm feeling so that I feel like like how I'm feeling so that I feel like we're all in this together versus them we're all in this together versus them we're all in this together versus them just looking to me like for the answer just looking to me like for the answer just looking to me like for the answer or for that direction. And it's also it or for that direction. And it's also it or for that direction. And it's also it also makes me feel less like isolated also makes me feel less like isolated also makes me feel less like isolated and less lonely if I feel like I can and less lonely if I feel like I can and less lonely if I feel like I can share with them like how we're how we're share with them like how we're how we're share with them like how we're how we're feeling. And you know I also think that feeling. And you know I also think that feeling. And you know I also think that we have a team that probably wants that we have a team that probably wants that we have a team that probably wants that wants to feel like they're in it with us wants to feel like they're in it with us wants to feel like they're in it with us versus like feeling like they're an versus like feeling like they're an versus like feeling like they're an employee and they're just like taking employee and they're just like taking employee and they're just like taking orders or they're getting direction from orders or they're getting direction from orders or they're getting direction from the founders. So I I think that's kind the founders. So I I think that's kind the founders. So I I think that's kind of one thing I I learned from my first of one thing I I learned from my first of one thing I I learned from my first company in that like it does feel very company in that like it does feel very company in that like it does feel very isolating. if you ha kind of feel like

isolating. if you ha kind of feel like isolating. if you ha kind of feel like you have to be that persona and the more you have to be that persona and the more you have to be that persona and the more you can let your team in to how you're you can let your team in to how you're you can let your team in to how you're feeling whether it's the ups and the feeling whether it's the ups and the feeling whether it's the ups and the downs like I do think that's going to downs like I do think that's going to downs like I do think that's going to make you more connected with the team um make you more connected with the team um make you more connected with the team um and also like it'll make you feel like and also like it'll make you feel like and also like it'll make you feel like less on an island. less on an island. less on an island. >> So you feel that's working for you that >> So you feel that's working for you that >> So you feel that's working for you that that that intentional sort of almost that that intentional sort of almost that that intentional sort of almost vulnerability or transparency shift has vulnerability or transparency shift has vulnerability or transparency shift has paid off in the ways that you'd hoped? paid off in the ways that you'd hoped? paid off in the ways that you'd hoped? >> Yeah, I think it has. And like as the >> Yeah, I think it has. And like as the >> Yeah, I think it has. And like as the second time around, like we've already second time around, like we've already second time around, like we've already made a huge pivot. Like we spent a year made a huge pivot. Like we spent a year made a huge pivot. Like we spent a year and a half on a completely different and a half on a completely different and a half on a completely different product that didn't work out. Now we're product that didn't work out. Now we're product that didn't work out. Now we're pivoting over. Like we haven't lost team pivoting over. Like we haven't lost team pivoting over. Like we haven't lost team members as a result of that. Like I members as a result of that. Like I members as a result of that. Like I think it's think it's think it's I think naturally also the people that I think naturally also the people that I think naturally also the people that you are recruiting at this stage, they you are recruiting at this stage, they you are recruiting at this stage, they want to be part of an early stage want to be part of an early stage want to be part of an early stage venture. They want that excitement. So venture. They want that excitement. So venture. They want that excitement. So um yeah, um yeah, um yeah, >> that's why they're choosing the >> that's why they're choosing the >> that's why they're choosing the instability of a startup over, you know, instability of a startup over, you know, instability of a startup over, you know, the the opposite with big companies. the the opposite with big companies. the the opposite with big companies. Yeah, that makes sense. Yeah, that makes sense. Yeah, that makes sense. It's just tricky, right? It's it's It's just tricky, right? It's it's It's just tricky, right? It's it's challenging. I think all CEOs probably challenging. I think all CEOs probably challenging. I think all CEOs probably struggle with the loneliness thing. Uh struggle with the loneliness thing. Uh struggle with the loneliness thing. Uh based on what I've heard, this is a based on what I've heard, this is a based on what I've heard, this is a thing I've been researching a bit lately thing I've been researching a bit lately thing I've been researching a bit lately and it seems like it's common, but and it seems like it's common, but and it seems like it's common, but you're right. I think you have to hire you're right. I think you have to hire you're right. I think you have to hire for that. Not everybody wants to be for that. Not everybody wants to be for that. Not everybody wants to be exposed to the guts, right? Sometimes exposed to the guts, right? Sometimes exposed to the guts, right? Sometimes >> your team is not prepared for that >> your team is not prepared for that >> your team is not prepared for that cultural shift, but it sounds like for cultural shift, but it sounds like for cultural shift, but it sounds like for you they were, and that's been really you they were, and that's been really you they were, and that's been really positive. So that's great. Was there positive. So that's great. Was there positive. So that's great. Was there anything you did to sus that out or did anything you did to sus that out or did anything you did to sus that out or did you kind of just go in both feet just you kind of just go in both feet just you kind of just go in both feet just jumping off the high dive?

jumping off the high dive? jumping off the high dive? >> Yeah. Well, it's funny like during the >> Yeah. Well, it's funny like during the >> Yeah. Well, it's funny like during the interview process for our team like I'll interview process for our team like I'll interview process for our team like I'll be very candid with them and I'll be be very candid with them and I'll be be very candid with them and I'll be like, "Hey, we're a startup. We have x like, "Hey, we're a startup. We have x like, "Hey, we're a startup. We have x number of months of runway left. This number of months of runway left. This number of months of runway left. This may not work. If you're in a position may not work. If you're in a position may not work. If you're in a position financially where you, you know, need financially where you, you know, need financially where you, you know, need this money and something were to happen this money and something were to happen this money and something were to happen where you don't have a job in the next where you don't have a job in the next where you don't have a job in the next few months, don't take this role." And I few months, don't take this role." And I few months, don't take this role." And I think I tried to scare them a little think I tried to scare them a little think I tried to scare them a little bit. bit. bit. That's good. That's good. That's good. >> Do I really want to do this? Because I >> Do I really want to do this? Because I >> Do I really want to do this? Because I think in my first company, I was selling think in my first company, I was selling think in my first company, I was selling them on the upside and how amazing them on the upside and how amazing them on the upside and how amazing things are going to be and like how this things are going to be and like how this things are going to be and like how this company's going be so valuable and we're company's going be so valuable and we're company's going be so valuable and we're just about to take off and I kind of just about to take off and I kind of just about to take off and I kind of realized I was doing them a disservice realized I was doing them a disservice realized I was doing them a disservice because I was, you know, setting their because I was, you know, setting their because I was, you know, setting their expectations way too high. And I also expectations way too high. And I also expectations way too high. And I also wasn't being realistic, which is how wasn't being realistic, which is how wasn't being realistic, which is how uncertain every startup is. Yeah, it's uncertain every startup is. Yeah, it's uncertain every startup is. Yeah, it's hard. I I fight with that all the time. hard. I I fight with that all the time. hard. I I fight with that all the time. Like I still I try Like I still I try Like I still I try the my personal struggle is that I I the my personal struggle is that I I the my personal struggle is that I I think my passion and my enthusiasm for a think my passion and my enthusiasm for a think my passion and my enthusiasm for a solution to a problem can be infectious.

solution to a problem can be infectious. solution to a problem can be infectious. At the same time, it can create it can At the same time, it can create it can At the same time, it can create it can it can create the expectation of a bias, it can create the expectation of a bias, it can create the expectation of a bias, >> right? And so like there's this >> right? And so like there's this >> right? And so like there's this interesting balance between interesting balance between interesting balance between demonstrating when you're enthusiastic demonstrating when you're enthusiastic demonstrating when you're enthusiastic about something and trying not to look about something and trying not to look about something and trying not to look like you're trying to convince like you're trying to convince like you're trying to convince everybody. And I honestly I worry about everybody. And I honestly I worry about everybody. And I honestly I worry about that constantly. I never know if I've that constantly. I never know if I've that constantly. I never know if I've actually struck the balance on that. But actually struck the balance on that. But actually struck the balance on that. But I think it's it's hard for founders cuz I think it's it's hard for founders cuz I think it's it's hard for founders cuz I think if you don't have that sort of I think if you don't have that sort of I think if you don't have that sort of almost blind optimism that like makes almost blind optimism that like makes almost blind optimism that like makes you think that above all odds you're you think that above all odds you're you think that above all odds you're actually going to accomplish this. If actually going to accomplish this. If actually going to accomplish this. If you don't have that, you're probably not you don't have that, you're probably not you don't have that, you're probably not a good founder. But if you do have that, a good founder. But if you do have that, a good founder. But if you do have that, it can run into some of those other it can run into some of those other it can run into some of those other friction points and that can be friction points and that can be friction points and that can be difficult to juggle. difficult to juggle. difficult to juggle. >> Totally. And like what you're saying is >> Totally. And like what you're saying is >> Totally. And like what you're saying is probably why you and other people are so probably why you and other people are so probably why you and other people are so good at sales is that you get so excited good at sales is that you get so excited good at sales is that you get so excited about something, you see the value in about something, you see the value in about something, you see the value in it, you get other people excited about it, you get other people excited about it, you get other people excited about it, but then at the same time like, you it, but then at the same time like, you it, but then at the same time like, you know, you get them excited to buy, which know, you get them excited to buy, which know, you get them excited to buy, which is great from a sales perspective, but is great from a sales perspective, but is great from a sales perspective, but then when it's their life, their then when it's their life, their then when it's their life, their livelihood, like their family, like you livelihood, like their family, like you livelihood, like their family, like you know, their stability, you don't know, their stability, you don't know, their stability, you don't necessarily want to oversell, necessarily want to oversell, necessarily want to oversell, >> right?

>> right? >> right? >> Totally agree. Yeah. Well, listen, >> Totally agree. Yeah. Well, listen, >> Totally agree. Yeah. Well, listen, Rogul, this is awesome. Thank you so Rogul, this is awesome. Thank you so Rogul, this is awesome. Thank you so much for for being a guest and and for much for for being a guest and and for much for for being a guest and and for being open with us and I've really being open with us and I've really being open with us and I've really enjoyed the conversation. Um, tell enjoyed the conversation. Um, tell enjoyed the conversation. Um, tell everybody where they can find your your everybody where they can find your your everybody where they can find your your current product. current product. current product. >> Yeah, so if you go to that's noble.com, >> Yeah, so if you go to that's noble.com, >> Yeah, so if you go to that's noble.com, um, you can go um, learn more about it. um, you can go um, learn more about it. um, you can go um, learn more about it. Um, and if you're interested in showing Um, and if you're interested in showing Um, and if you're interested in showing up in the search, you can book a demo up in the search, you can book a demo up in the search, you can book a demo and you know, if you mention the and you know, if you mention the and you know, if you mention the podcast, I'll talk to you directly. podcast, I'll talk to you directly. podcast, I'll talk to you directly. >> There it is. Mention out foxed. And to >> There it is. Mention out foxed. And to >> There it is. Mention out foxed. And to be clear, it's spelled N O B L E. So if be clear, it's spelled N O B L E. So if be clear, it's spelled N O B L E. So if you're a crossfitter, this is not N O B you're a crossfitter, this is not N O B you're a crossfitter, this is not N O B U L L. It's not noble. Uh this is uh U L L. It's not noble. Uh this is uh U L L. It's not noble. Uh this is uh Noble. So Ro, it's absolute pleasure. Noble. So Ro, it's absolute pleasure. Noble. So Ro, it's absolute pleasure. Thank you so much. Of Thank you so much. Of Thank you so much. Of >> course. Thanks, man. >> course. Thanks, man. >> course. Thanks, man. >> If you like what you heard, please like, >> If you like what you heard, please like, >> If you like what you heard, please like, subscribe, and explore even more of the subscribe, and explore even more of the subscribe, and explore even more of the Outbox community by visiting Outbox community by visiting Outbox community by visiting www.outfox.hunter.io.