Outfoxed podcast by Hunter.io | Ep. 6: Kristie Jones on why a "no" means "not right now" in B2B

This is Outfox, the podcast brought to This is Outfox, the podcast brought to you by hunter.io, the trusted B2B lead you by hunter.io, the trusted B2B lead you by hunter.io, the trusted B2B lead generation platform built for every generation platform built for every generation platform built for every professional. Get ready for no professional. Get ready for no professional. Get ready for no playbooks, no posturing, and no egos. playbooks, no posturing, and no egos. playbooks, no posturing, and no egos. Your host is Hunter CEO Matt Tharp, and Your host is Hunter CEO Matt Tharp, and Your host is Hunter CEO Matt Tharp, and his guest today is Christy Jones, the his guest today is Christy Jones, the his guest today is Christy Jones, the founder of the Sales Acceleration Group. founder of the Sales Acceleration Group. founder of the Sales Acceleration Group. Let's get into it. Well, uh, we're here Let's get into it. Well, uh, we're here Let's get into it. Well, uh, we're here with Christy Jones. Uh, Christie, with Christy Jones. Uh, Christie, with Christy Jones. Uh, Christie, welcome to Outf Fox. uh really excited welcome to Outf Fox. uh really excited welcome to Outf Fox. uh really excited to pick your brain uh because there's a to pick your brain uh because there's a to pick your brain uh because there's a lot that you cover just in in kind of lot that you cover just in in kind of lot that you cover just in in kind of your personal brand, but I think your your personal brand, but I think your your personal brand, but I think your book especially that's going to really book especially that's going to really book especially that's going to really work well for the Outfox audience that work well for the Outfox audience that work well for the Outfox audience that we're still developing. So like, you we're still developing. So like, you we're still developing. So like, you know, if you're new, there's not a bunch know, if you're new, there's not a bunch know, if you're new, there's not a bunch of backstory that you need to know to of backstory that you need to know to of backstory that you need to know to catch up on Outf Fox. You're here, catch up on Outf Fox. You're here, catch up on Outf Fox. You're here, you're in the right place. Um Christie, you're in the right place. Um Christie, you're in the right place. Um Christie, I'd love it if you just introduce I'd love it if you just introduce I'd love it if you just introduce yourself. Um, and I would especially yourself. Um, and I would especially yourself. Um, and I would especially love it if you could lean in on like love it if you could lean in on like love it if you could lean in on like what made you decide that this was the what made you decide that this was the what made you decide that this was the focal point for your career because focal point for your career because focal point for your career because you've wrapped a lot around some really you've wrapped a lot around some really you've wrapped a lot around some really interesting central themes and I'd love interesting central themes and I'd love interesting central themes and I'd love for you to talk a little bit more about for you to talk a little bit more about for you to talk a little bit more about those.

those. those. >> Sure, Matt. Thanks so much for having >> Sure, Matt. Thanks so much for having >> Sure, Matt. Thanks so much for having me. Um, I'm pretty uh transparent about me. Um, I'm pretty uh transparent about me. Um, I'm pretty uh transparent about the fact that I'm doing consulting as a the fact that I'm doing consulting as a the fact that I'm doing consulting as a general um profession as a result of general um profession as a result of general um profession as a result of being uh I say fired. my mother would being uh I say fired. my mother would being uh I say fired. my mother would prefer to be that I not use that word. prefer to be that I not use that word. prefer to be that I not use that word. She was like it was a reorg. I was like She was like it was a reorg. I was like She was like it was a reorg. I was like well okay but I lost my job. Um I lost well okay but I lost my job. Um I lost well okay but I lost my job. Um I lost my job back in 2016 my job back in 2016 my job back in 2016 and I had was on the hunt for a new uh and I had was on the hunt for a new uh and I had was on the hunt for a new uh you know VP of sales or sales leadership you know VP of sales or sales leadership you know VP of sales or sales leadership role when I say the universe conspired role when I say the universe conspired role when I say the universe conspired to push me in this direction. Um it just to push me in this direction. Um it just to push me in this direction. Um it just a bunch of weird things happen and I a bunch of weird things happen and I a bunch of weird things happen and I also say when the universe speaks you also say when the universe speaks you also say when the universe speaks you should listen. Uh consulting had always should listen. Uh consulting had always should listen. Uh consulting had always been of interest to me, but I still had been of interest to me, but I still had been of interest to me, but I still had a child in school um in high school and a child in school um in high school and a child in school um in high school and so I thought in my brain I had thought so I thought in my brain I had thought so I thought in my brain I had thought that it was going to require travel and that it was going to require travel and that it was going to require travel and so I didn't want to miss those last so I didn't want to miss those last so I didn't want to miss those last couple of years of high school before he couple of years of high school before he couple of years of high school before he went off to college and wasn't sure I went off to college and wasn't sure I went off to college and wasn't sure I would ever see him again. Um and so I would ever see him again. Um and so I would ever see him again. Um and so I you but but this things started you but but this things started you but but this things started happening, calls started coming in, happening, calls started coming in, happening, calls started coming in, people who didn't know that I had, you people who didn't know that I had, you people who didn't know that I had, you know, was in the process of losing my know, was in the process of losing my know, was in the process of losing my job um were calling and asking about job um were calling and asking about job um were calling and asking about things and for help in ways that they things and for help in ways that they things and for help in ways that they had never asked before. Um, and so, had never asked before. Um, and so, had never asked before. Um, and so, um, before I I'd gotten a 3 months, uh, um, before I I'd gotten a 3 months, uh, um, before I I'd gotten a 3 months, uh, grace period basically. So, they said, grace period basically. So, they said, grace period basically. So, they said, um, we're going to blow your team up um, we're going to blow your team up um, we're going to blow your team up here in St. Louis and rebuild it in here in St. Louis and rebuild it in here in St. Louis and rebuild it in Phoenix, Arizona under the marketing Phoenix, Arizona under the marketing Phoenix, Arizona under the marketing umbrella instead of under the sales umbrella instead of under the sales umbrella instead of under the sales umbrella. I was leading a SDR team of umbrella. I was leading a SDR team of umbrella. I was leading a SDR team of 13. And they said, you know, if you'll 13. And they said, you know, if you'll 13. And they said, you know, if you'll keep the boat afloat for three months, keep the boat afloat for three months, keep the boat afloat for three months, we'll pay you three months severance.

we'll pay you three months severance. we'll pay you three months severance. And, you know, they being the financial And, you know, they being the financial And, you know, they being the financial girl that I am, that sounded like a good girl that I am, that sounded like a good girl that I am, that sounded like a good gig. Um, they also were kind enough to gig. Um, they also were kind enough to gig. Um, they also were kind enough to say, we know you're going to have to be say, we know you're going to have to be say, we know you're going to have to be looking for a new opportunity. So, as looking for a new opportunity. So, as looking for a new opportunity. So, as long as you show up to the office, you long as you show up to the office, you long as you show up to the office, you know, every day for a little bit, that'd know, every day for a little bit, that'd know, every day for a little bit, that'd be great. Um, but before that 3 months be great. Um, but before that 3 months be great. Um, but before that 3 months had expired, I had started a consulting had expired, I had started a consulting had expired, I had started a consulting business and I had three clients. And business and I had three clients. And business and I had three clients. And so, I was kind of off to the races. The so, I was kind of off to the races. The so, I was kind of off to the races. The rest is a little bit of history. Um, but rest is a little bit of history. Um, but rest is a little bit of history. Um, but I would say over that last about 10 I would say over that last about 10 I would say over that last about 10 years, I definitely leaned into and I years, I definitely leaned into and I years, I definitely leaned into and I had I'd be kind of grown up in B2B SAS had I'd be kind of grown up in B2B SAS had I'd be kind of grown up in B2B SAS startups. startups. startups. >> Okay. Um, and then at some point I'd >> Okay. Um, and then at some point I'd >> Okay. Um, and then at some point I'd done bootstrapped and then I went to done bootstrapped and then I went to done bootstrapped and then I went to VCbacked and I say I got the VC backed VCbacked and I say I got the VC backed VCbacked and I say I got the VC backed bug. Um, and I really love the VC world. bug. Um, and I really love the VC world. bug. Um, and I really love the VC world. But at some point it took me a while, But at some point it took me a while, But at some point it took me a while, you know, to really get comfortable you know, to really get comfortable you know, to really get comfortable saying, hey, I do B2B SAS startups, 1 to saying, hey, I do B2B SAS startups, 1 to saying, hey, I do B2B SAS startups, 1 to 5 million in revenue in general. That's 5 million in revenue in general. That's 5 million in revenue in general. That's my swim lane. These are my people. Um, my swim lane. These are my people. Um, my swim lane. These are my people. Um, and this is my expertise. So, you know, and this is my expertise. So, you know, and this is my expertise. So, you know, I I call it I say you need to get small I I call it I say you need to get small I I call it I say you need to get small to go big. I have a similar thing which to go big. I have a similar thing which to go big. I have a similar thing which is uh you know sometimes you do need to is uh you know sometimes you do need to is uh you know sometimes you do need to slow down to speed up. I find that that slow down to speed up. I find that that slow down to speed up. I find that that while maybe uh trit tends to actually be while maybe uh trit tends to actually be while maybe uh trit tends to actually be true a lot. I 100% agree with that. Yes.

true a lot. I 100% agree with that. Yes. true a lot. I 100% agree with that. Yes. So you know that and and when I got So you know that and and when I got So you know that and and when I got comfortable with that again um sometimes comfortable with that again um sometimes comfortable with that again um sometimes you have to get uncomfortable right you have to get uncomfortable right you have to get uncomfortable right before things start to fall into place. before things start to fall into place. before things start to fall into place. But I resisted it for a while. But the But I resisted it for a while. But the But I resisted it for a while. But the fact of the matter is there are fact of the matter is there are fact of the matter is there are thousands and thousands of sales thousands and thousands of sales thousands and thousands of sales trainers, thousands of thousands of trainers, thousands of thousands of trainers, thousands of thousands of sales coaches, thousands of people who sales coaches, thousands of people who sales coaches, thousands of people who do sales workshops and those type of do sales workshops and those type of do sales workshops and those type of things. And and really I didn't like at things. And and really I didn't like at things. And and really I didn't like at the end of the day I would admittedly the end of the day I would admittedly the end of the day I would admittedly say I don't think I'm bringing anything say I don't think I'm bringing anything say I don't think I'm bringing anything super unique to the table in that area, super unique to the table in that area, super unique to the table in that area, but I do bring something unique to the but I do bring something unique to the but I do bring something unique to the table in the startup world. Um, you table in the startup world. Um, you table in the startup world. Um, you know, particularly helping people move know, particularly helping people move know, particularly helping people move from founder selling to building out from founder selling to building out from founder selling to building out their first sales team is sort of my their first sales team is sort of my their first sales team is sort of my sweet spot. And so but so that just when sweet spot. And so but so that just when sweet spot. And so but so that just when I when I you know leaned into that and I when I you know leaned into that and I when I you know leaned into that and got comfortable with it and changed my got comfortable with it and changed my got comfortable with it and changed my LinkedIn you know profile and and really LinkedIn you know profile and and really LinkedIn you know profile and and really started writing content around those started writing content around those started writing content around those type of things then I became the person type of things then I became the person type of things then I became the person whose name was on everybody's tongue whose name was on everybody's tongue whose name was on everybody's tongue when they were struggling right who when they were struggling right who when they were struggling right who should I talk to VCs and founders alike should I talk to VCs and founders alike should I talk to VCs and founders alike but a lot of my business came from VCs but a lot of my business came from VCs but a lot of my business came from VCs early on and you do some good work there early on and you do some good work there early on and you do some good work there they've got a big portfolio um I call they've got a big portfolio um I call they've got a big portfolio um I call that the one to many strategy if you can that the one to many strategy if you can that the one to many strategy if you can get one good channel partner right and I get one good channel partner right and I get one good channel partner right and I was able to get a few good channel was able to get a few good channel was able to get a few good channel partners that had good portfolios. So, I partners that had good portfolios. So, I partners that had good portfolios. So, I also think that a lot of sales also think that a lot of sales also think that a lot of sales professionals need to get small to go professionals need to get small to go professionals need to get small to go big and understand what their big and understand what their big and understand what their superpowers are and what they do better superpowers are and what they do better superpowers are and what they do better than other people and then find jobs than other people and then find jobs than other people and then find jobs that match that versus just trying to that match that versus just trying to that match that versus just trying to find a job.

find a job. find a job. >> I love that. I think there's been a lot >> I love that. I think there's been a lot >> I love that. I think there's been a lot of focus on that in the last I want to of focus on that in the last I want to of focus on that in the last I want to say five years, but it could be a little say five years, but it could be a little say five years, but it could be a little bit longer than that. But just this idea bit longer than that. But just this idea bit longer than that. But just this idea that you know I so like very early in my that you know I so like very early in my that you know I so like very early in my career when I was growing up in business career when I was growing up in business career when I was growing up in business and it was like I felt a lot of pressure and it was like I felt a lot of pressure and it was like I felt a lot of pressure to be good at things I wasn't good at. to be good at things I wasn't good at. to be good at things I wasn't good at. And I remember so many mentors and And I remember so many mentors and And I remember so many mentors and people around me early in my career people around me early in my career people around me early in my career trying to like make me more trying to like make me more trying to like make me more well-rounded. And all of that was great. well-rounded. And all of that was great. well-rounded. And all of that was great. I mean I love learning and I like I mean I love learning and I like I mean I love learning and I like challenging myself. But somewhere in the challenging myself. But somewhere in the challenging myself. But somewhere in the last 5 or so years, there's been shifts last 5 or so years, there's been shifts last 5 or so years, there's been shifts to I think a better story around to I think a better story around to I think a better story around actually thinning yourself out isn't actually thinning yourself out isn't actually thinning yourself out isn't doing yourself any favors and actually doing yourself any favors and actually doing yourself any favors and actually focusing in on what you're uniquely focusing in on what you're uniquely focusing in on what you're uniquely talented at and like finding your talented at and like finding your talented at and like finding your differentiator. We do it with differentiator. We do it with differentiator. We do it with businesses, why not do it with businesses, why not do it with businesses, why not do it with ourselves? ourselves? ourselves? >> Like how what were some of the >> Like how what were some of the >> Like how what were some of the techniques or what were some of the techniques or what were some of the techniques or what were some of the things that you used to figure out what things that you used to figure out what things that you used to figure out what that what that sweet spot was in a way that what that sweet spot was in a way that what that sweet spot was in a way that didn't make you feel like you were that didn't make you feel like you were that didn't make you feel like you were eliminating opportunities? cuz I think eliminating opportunities? cuz I think eliminating opportunities? cuz I think that's what a lot of people struggle that's what a lot of people struggle that's what a lot of people struggle with is they don't want to say no to with is they don't want to say no to with is they don't want to say no to things and they want to be opportunistic things and they want to be opportunistic things and they want to be opportunistic but they are struggling to figure out but they are struggling to figure out but they are struggling to figure out how to do that while still focusing how to do that while still focusing how to do that while still focusing more. How like what are some of the more. How like what are some of the more. How like what are some of the tricks you found?

tricks you found? tricks you found? >> Yeah, I don't know that uh I I found a >> Yeah, I don't know that uh I I found a >> Yeah, I don't know that uh I I found a mentor that was trick number one mentor that was trick number one mentor that was trick number one >> who really pressured me, right? Um I I >> who really pressured me, right? Um I I >> who really pressured me, right? Um I I reached out to her. She is a social she reached out to her. She is a social she reached out to her. She is a social she was a social selling expert and in a was a social selling expert and in a was a social selling expert and in a group that I a group of female group that I a group of female group that I a group of female consultants that I belong to and I consultants that I belong to and I consultants that I belong to and I reached out to her and said hey like I reached out to her and said hey like I reached out to her and said hey like I want to update my my LinkedIn profile want to update my my LinkedIn profile want to update my my LinkedIn profile and some of the things about my you know and some of the things about my you know and some of the things about my you know I wanted to look you know you know I wanted to look you know you know I wanted to look you know you know jazzier and can you help me and she said jazzier and can you help me and she said jazzier and can you help me and she said yes and as we were going through and yes and as we were going through and yes and as we were going through and trying to update things finally she just trying to update things finally she just trying to update things finally she just said to me I don't understand why you're said to me I don't understand why you're said to me I don't understand why you're not saying I help B2B startup founders not saying I help B2B startup founders not saying I help B2B startup founders and I said well there you know like and I said well there you know like and I said well there you know like that's a pretty small universe and you that's a pretty small universe and you that's a pretty small universe and you know like there's lots of other things I know like there's lots of other things I know like there's lots of other things I could be doing and like, you know, it's could be doing and like, you know, it's could be doing and like, you know, it's not like I'm not qualified to work with not like I'm not qualified to work with not like I'm not qualified to work with Fortune 500 companies, right? Fortune 500 companies, right? Fortune 500 companies, right? >> And she said, but you've never done it. >> And she said, but you've never done it. >> And she said, but you've never done it. Do you want to do it? And I go, well, Do you want to do it? And I go, well, Do you want to do it? And I go, well, no. She goes, why don't you just lean no. She goes, why don't you just lean no. She goes, why don't you just lean into this and become the B2B SAS startup into this and become the B2B SAS startup into this and become the B2B SAS startup consultant and, you know, and see what consultant and, you know, and see what consultant and, you know, and see what happens. And I, it was terrifying, happens. And I, it was terrifying, happens. And I, it was terrifying, right? Because, you know, when I lived right? Because, you know, when I lived right? Because, you know, when I lived in the world of Tam Samum, right, and I in the world of Tam Samum, right, and I in the world of Tam Samum, right, and I was like, oh, that's really I'm like, was like, oh, that's really I'm like, was like, oh, that's really I'm like, yeah, the pond's very small. Um, and the yeah, the pond's very small. Um, and the yeah, the pond's very small. Um, and the fact of the matter is the pond isn't fact of the matter is the pond isn't fact of the matter is the pond isn't that small. Right. And um it is how I that small. Right. And um it is how I that small. Right. And um it is how I had grown up. You know, the very first had grown up. You know, the very first had grown up. You know, the very first B2B SAS company I worked in I I did by B2B SAS company I worked in I I did by B2B SAS company I worked in I I did by the way have a Fortune 500 experience the way have a Fortune 500 experience the way have a Fortune 500 experience for eight years. Um and then my first for eight years. Um and then my first for eight years. Um and then my first job after that was a company with about job after that was a company with about job after that was a company with about 20 employees. Um and I spent 10 years 20 employees. Um and I spent 10 years 20 employees. Um and I spent 10 years there helping him double his revenue, there helping him double his revenue, there helping him double his revenue, the owner, and it was bootstrapped the owner, and it was bootstrapped the owner, and it was bootstrapped before. The next job was my first VC

before. The next job was my first VC before. The next job was my first VC backed company. Um, but I had been backed company. Um, but I had been backed company. Um, but I had been living in that world and but it seemed living in that world and but it seemed living in that world and but it seemed so, you know, which which I loved and so, you know, which which I loved and so, you know, which which I loved and was super comfortable. You know, I left was super comfortable. You know, I left was super comfortable. You know, I left Fortune 500 and people said, "What are Fortune 500 and people said, "What are Fortune 500 and people said, "What are you going to do?" You know, what are you you going to do?" You know, what are you you going to do?" You know, what are you going to look for? Are you looking for going to look for? Are you looking for going to look for? Are you looking for another I was at I was working for another I was at I was working for another I was at I was working for Macy's and I working for another retail Macy's and I working for another retail Macy's and I working for another retail company? And I said, "Oh, heck no." I company? And I said, "Oh, heck no." I company? And I said, "Oh, heck no." I said, "No, I don't like this at all." said, "No, I don't like this at all." said, "No, I don't like this at all." And so I said, "No, I want I want a seat And so I said, "No, I want I want a seat And so I said, "No, I want I want a seat at the nights of the round table is how at the nights of the round table is how at the nights of the round table is how I described it. You know, I want a I described it. You know, I want a I described it. You know, I want a company small enough where my voice company small enough where my voice company small enough where my voice matters. I can have an impact. I can see matters. I can have an impact. I can see matters. I can have an impact. I can see how I'm making a contribution as opposed how I'm making a contribution as opposed how I'm making a contribution as opposed to sitting in, you know, Tommy to sitting in, you know, Tommy to sitting in, you know, Tommy Hilfiger's showroom in New York with my Hilfiger's showroom in New York with my Hilfiger's showroom in New York with my president, my GMM, my DMM, myself and president, my GMM, my DMM, myself and president, my GMM, my DMM, myself and two other buyers um while they bring two other buyers um while they bring two other buyers um while they bring their, you know, cohort of people and their, you know, cohort of people and their, you know, cohort of people and I'm just basically became the secretary. I'm just basically became the secretary. I'm just basically became the secretary. Um so, you know, I think it was it was Um so, you know, I think it was it was Um so, you know, I think it was it was scary, but it was the right move. The scary, but it was the right move. The scary, but it was the right move. The business has just gone to a place where business has just gone to a place where business has just gone to a place where I, you know, work off referrals, right? I, you know, work off referrals, right? I, you know, work off referrals, right? Right. I mean, I became that person.

Right. I mean, I became that person. Right. I mean, I became that person. >> It's amazing to think about that at one >> It's amazing to think about that at one >> It's amazing to think about that at one point you were afraid of focusing on point you were afraid of focusing on point you were afraid of focusing on this because I think the transition from this because I think the transition from this because I think the transition from founder selling to figuring out how to founder selling to figuring out how to founder selling to figuring out how to create a sales or gosh, the tentacles on create a sales or gosh, the tentacles on create a sales or gosh, the tentacles on that topic is are just incredible. But that topic is are just incredible. But that topic is are just incredible. But like first off, have have been a like first off, have have been a like first off, have have been a founder, have been the first person to founder, have been the first person to founder, have been the first person to to create sales at an or have done a to create sales at an or have done a to create sales at an or have done a good job and a shitty job both. So like good job and a shitty job both. So like good job and a shitty job both. So like I've had a chance to see all that and I I've had a chance to see all that and I I've had a chance to see all that and I find that it's all psychology getting find that it's all psychology getting find that it's all psychology getting founders to stop thinking about this as founders to stop thinking about this as founders to stop thinking about this as something that they don't want to do. something that they don't want to do. something that they don't want to do. Like there's a component of that was Like there's a component of that was Like there's a component of that was like it's almost like you have to like it's almost like you have to like it's almost like you have to embrace it to be able to be okay hiring embrace it to be able to be okay hiring embrace it to be able to be okay hiring for it to a certain extent. Um tell me for it to a certain extent. Um tell me for it to a certain extent. Um tell me more about this experience of like how more about this experience of like how more about this experience of like how like what are some of the things that like what are some of the things that like what are some of the things that you found where you could add a lot of you found where you could add a lot of you found where you could add a lot of value when you were talking to founders value when you were talking to founders value when you were talking to founders about this transition because I think about this transition because I think about this transition because I think they're all going to go through it and I they're all going to go through it and I they're all going to go through it and I think this is a really great experience think this is a really great experience think this is a really great experience to talk about. So most times what what I to talk about. So most times what what I to talk about. So most times what what I started getting the call was from the VC started getting the call was from the VC started getting the call was from the VC or a founder saying, "Hey, like we just or a founder saying, "Hey, like we just or a founder saying, "Hey, like we just got money, right? So they've just gotten got money, right? So they've just gotten got money, right? So they've just gotten some series A funding. We need them to some series A funding. We need them to some series A funding. We need them to stop selling. Go back to their day job stop selling. Go back to their day job stop selling. Go back to their day job as we need you to help them figure that as we need you to help them figure that as we need you to help them figure that out." And so initially I had made some out." And so initially I had made some out." And so initially I had made some mistakes myself with them where we went mistakes myself with them where we went mistakes myself with them where we went out and we, you know, I was like, "I'm out and we, you know, I was like, "I'm out and we, you know, I was like, "I'm going to find you the best seller, you going to find you the best seller, you going to find you the best seller, you know, ever." And then a people a couple know, ever." And then a people a couple know, ever." And then a people a couple people failed and I was like oh well we people failed and I was like oh well we people failed and I was like oh well we didn't do the this is the most important didn't do the this is the most important didn't do the this is the most important step that now I insist on which is we step that now I insist on which is we step that now I insist on which is we have to get everything out of their head have to get everything out of their head have to get everything out of their head and onto paper because there was no and onto paper because there was no and onto paper because there was no playbook right being salesperson number

playbook right being salesperson number playbook right being salesperson number one is a very small group of people who one is a very small group of people who one is a very small group of people who are qualified and capable of doing that are qualified and capable of doing that are qualified and capable of doing that and willing to do that um but I decided and willing to do that um but I decided and willing to do that um but I decided that you know we we weren't making it that you know we we weren't making it that you know we we weren't making it any easier for them and so you know one any easier for them and so you know one any easier for them and so you know one of the things that I learned is I you of the things that I learned is I you of the things that I learned is I you know I build out I help them build out know I build out I help them build out know I build out I help them build out what I call the sales processes call it what I call the sales processes call it what I call the sales processes call it the playbook tie that all of the CRM the playbook tie that all of the CRM the playbook tie that all of the CRM system make sure that that's customized system make sure that that's customized system make sure that that's customized I get involved you know and then I do do I get involved you know and then I do do I get involved you know and then I do do the I will do the hiring for them um I the I will do the hiring for them um I the I will do the hiring for them um I call it hiring help because we do it call it hiring help because we do it call it hiring help because we do it together it's a team sport um and I together it's a team sport um and I together it's a team sport um and I basically project manage the hiring basically project manage the hiring basically project manage the hiring process my team and I with them we never process my team and I with them we never process my team and I with them we never leave them alone with the candidate we leave them alone with the candidate we leave them alone with the candidate we don't trust them um we don't think don't trust them um we don't think don't trust them um we don't think they're qualified to make the right they're qualified to make the right they're qualified to make the right decision um but but before that like decision um but but before that like decision um but but before that like when I get that All one of the when I get that All one of the when I get that All one of the conversations I have, you know, the get conversations I have, you know, the get conversations I have, you know, the get honest with yourself conversation with honest with yourself conversation with honest with yourself conversation with the founder is, are you truly ready to the founder is, are you truly ready to the founder is, are you truly ready to give the baby up for adoption and hand give the baby up for adoption and hand give the baby up for adoption and hand it over to adoptive parents? Are you it over to adoptive parents? Are you it over to adoptive parents? Are you really willing to do that? Willing and really willing to do that? Willing and really willing to do that? Willing and ready to do that. And then the other ready to do that. And then the other ready to do that. And then the other conversation I had with them, I got an conversation I had with them, I got an conversation I had with them, I got an opportunity to speak at a business of opportunity to speak at a business of opportunity to speak at a business of software conference in Raleigh and the software conference in Raleigh and the software conference in Raleigh and the topic I spoke on was the founder topic I spoke on was the founder topic I spoke on was the founder advantage. Um, which is really a advantage. Um, which is really a advantage. Um, which is really a disadvantage, right? So becomes a disadvantage, right? So becomes a disadvantage, right? So becomes a disadvantage. But founder advantage is, disadvantage. But founder advantage is, disadvantage. But founder advantage is, you know, they they got themselves to you know, they they got themselves to you know, they they got themselves to $750,000, a million dollars. That's how $750,000, a million dollars. That's how $750,000, a million dollars. That's how they got some funding, right? They had they got some funding, right? They had they got some funding, right? They had to get to a certain level on their own.

to get to a certain level on their own. to get to a certain level on their own. And then, but what they didn't And then, but what they didn't And then, but what they didn't understand is when they hand the baby understand is when they hand the baby understand is when they hand the baby over that that person's name isn't over that that person's name isn't over that that person's name isn't founder or owner. They did not grow up founder or owner. They did not grow up founder or owner. They did not grow up perhaps in the industry in which they perhaps in the industry in which they perhaps in the industry in which they grew up. They did not create the baby grew up. They did not create the baby grew up. They did not create the baby over, you know, 9 months or or, you over, you know, 9 months or or, you over, you know, 9 months or or, you know, 19 months. And so there's an know, 19 months. And so there's an know, 19 months. And so there's an advantage to to founder led selling advantage to to founder led selling advantage to to founder led selling because of your rolodex, because of who because of your rolodex, because of who because of your rolodex, because of who you are, because you know everything you are, because you know everything you are, because you know everything about the baby, right? And so I have to about the baby, right? And so I have to about the baby, right? And so I have to say to them like this isn't like I'm say to them like this isn't like I'm say to them like this isn't like I'm going to get all this information out of going to get all this information out of going to get all this information out of your head, but you still at the end of your head, but you still at the end of your head, but you still at the end of the day, you still did things the day, you still did things the day, you still did things differently than we're going to do them differently than we're going to do them differently than we're going to do them going forward. I'm going to take the the going forward. I'm going to take the the going forward. I'm going to take the the good best practices and the things that good best practices and the things that good best practices and the things that worked really well for you that got you worked really well for you that got you worked really well for you that got you a million dollars, but I'm going to have a million dollars, but I'm going to have a million dollars, but I'm going to have to put them in a format that someone who to put them in a format that someone who to put them in a format that someone who isn't you can use in order to sell. And isn't you can use in order to sell. And isn't you can use in order to sell. And so, you know, with those two agreements so, you know, with those two agreements so, you know, with those two agreements that, you know, I will not be a that, you know, I will not be a that, you know, I will not be a meddling, you know, parent and and I meddling, you know, parent and and I meddling, you know, parent and and I will be patient. will be patient. will be patient. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Because even though my sales cycle might >> Because even though my sales cycle might >> Because even though my sales cycle might be 90 days, their sales cycle might be be 90 days, their sales cycle might be be 90 days, their sales cycle might be 120. 120. 120. >> And, you know, that's just that's just >> And, you know, that's just that's just >> And, you know, that's just that's just the way it is because you have founder the way it is because you have founder the way it is because you have founder advantages that the but sales rep number advantages that the but sales rep number advantages that the but sales rep number one's not going to have.

one's not going to have. one's not going to have. >> That's always been the biggest >> That's always been the biggest >> That's always been the biggest difficulty is the things that like difficulty is the things that like difficulty is the things that like founders are really good at selling founders are really good at selling founders are really good at selling because they get instant credibility. because they get instant credibility. because they get instant credibility. They're literally the ones deep in the They're literally the ones deep in the They're literally the ones deep in the wiring of the whole thing. They wiring of the whole thing. They wiring of the whole thing. They understand what the core problem was understand what the core problem was understand what the core problem was that inspired them to do this in the that inspired them to do this in the that inspired them to do this in the first place. first place. first place. >> None of that translates well. >> None of that translates well. >> None of that translates well. >> No. No. >> No. No. >> No. No. >> And you can't. And I think this was the >> And you can't. And I think this was the >> And you can't. And I think this was the mistake I made early on was like, "Oh, I mistake I made early on was like, "Oh, I mistake I made early on was like, "Oh, I should go out and hire a fleet of me." should go out and hire a fleet of me." should go out and hire a fleet of me." Like that's the secret to success when Like that's the secret to success when Like that's the secret to success when actually not only is that nearly actually not only is that nearly actually not only is that nearly impossible, it's it's actually not the impossible, it's it's actually not the impossible, it's it's actually not the right idea, right? The idea is not to right idea, right? The idea is not to right idea, right? The idea is not to replace founders selling with a bunch of replace founders selling with a bunch of replace founders selling with a bunch of mini founders. It's because that's mini founders. It's because that's mini founders. It's because that's insane. Um, what was there any insane. Um, what was there any insane. Um, what was there any particular thing that you found as you particular thing that you found as you particular thing that you found as you would talk to founders that maybe as you would talk to founders that maybe as you would talk to founders that maybe as you would introduce candidates or something? would introduce candidates or something? would introduce candidates or something? Was there a thing that you found that Was there a thing that you found that Was there a thing that you found that would flip the light on where they would would flip the light on where they would would flip the light on where they would be like, "Oh, I get it. This is just be like, "Oh, I get it. This is just be like, "Oh, I get it. This is just totally different because I feel like totally different because I feel like totally different because I feel like explaining it is not the same thing. explaining it is not the same thing. explaining it is not the same thing. It's not quite there." It's not quite there." It's not quite there." >> I I just think hearing the candidates.

>> I I just think hearing the candidates. >> I I just think hearing the candidates. So, you know, I I lead those interviews, So, you know, I I lead those interviews, So, you know, I I lead those interviews, right? Okay. And so, you know, one of right? Okay. And so, you know, one of right? Okay. And so, you know, one of the first things I'm looking for is the first things I'm looking for is the first things I'm looking for is similar or same motion. Right? Again, similar or same motion. Right? Again, similar or same motion. Right? Again, it's hard enough to be seller number it's hard enough to be seller number it's hard enough to be seller number one, two, or three without, you know, one, two, or three without, you know, one, two, or three without, you know, you were selling a six figure product you were selling a six figure product you were selling a six figure product and this is a $35,000 product. Your and this is a $35,000 product. Your and this is a $35,000 product. Your sales cycle was 9 months, this is 90 sales cycle was 9 months, this is 90 sales cycle was 9 months, this is 90 days. Like, so the first thing I'm I'm days. Like, so the first thing I'm I'm days. Like, so the first thing I'm I'm asking for, I go, tell me every step in asking for, I go, tell me every step in asking for, I go, tell me every step in the process. Like, where do leads come the process. Like, where do leads come the process. Like, where do leads come from? What do you do with that? How does from? What do you do with that? How does from? What do you do with that? How does it go through? Because in general, I'm it go through? Because in general, I'm it go through? Because in general, I'm hiring what I call full cycle seller, hiring what I call full cycle seller, hiring what I call full cycle seller, right? At this point, we're not hiring right? At this point, we're not hiring right? At this point, we're not hiring probably an SDR and an AE. We're hiring probably an SDR and an AE. We're hiring probably an SDR and an AE. We're hiring a full cycle seller. So, you have one a full cycle seller. So, you have one a full cycle seller. So, you have one person doing things so you can figure person doing things so you can figure person doing things so you can figure out what's working, what's not working out what's working, what's not working out what's working, what's not working with as we move away from foundled with as we move away from foundled with as we move away from foundled selling. Um, but I think like just the selling. Um, but I think like just the selling. Um, but I think like just the question, you know, like I asked them question, you know, like I asked them question, you know, like I asked them what their superpower is. You know, I what their superpower is. You know, I what their superpower is. You know, I asked them about the most creative thing asked them about the most creative thing asked them about the most creative thing they've done to close a deal. You know, they've done to close a deal. You know, they've done to close a deal. You know, I've asked them things that the founder I've asked them things that the founder I've asked them things that the founder probably hadn't thought about because probably hadn't thought about because probably hadn't thought about because they didn't have to do these things. And they didn't have to do these things. And they didn't have to do these things. And so, you know, we we obviously ask a lot so, you know, we we obviously ask a lot so, you know, we we obviously ask a lot of sales competencies. Um, you know, and of sales competencies. Um, you know, and of sales competencies. Um, you know, and then I asked them about their, you know, then I asked them about their, you know, then I asked them about their, you know, biggest, I go, I call it the biggest biggest, I go, I call it the biggest biggest, I go, I call it the biggest heroic failure. I said, you got your, heroic failure. I said, you got your, heroic failure. I said, you got your, you know, you went to the dry cleaner, you know, you went to the dry cleaner, you know, you went to the dry cleaner, you got your Superman outfit cuz it's you got your Superman outfit cuz it's you got your Superman outfit cuz it's all clean now because you were going to all clean now because you were going to all clean now because you were going to save the day, right? You were about to save the day, right? You were about to save the day, right? You were about to close the big deal. It was in the bag close the big deal. It was in the bag close the big deal. It was in the bag and then kryptonite showed up and it and then kryptonite showed up and it and then kryptonite showed up and it didn't happen. And you know, and I want didn't happen. And you know, and I want didn't happen. And you know, and I want to make them human too with the founder, to make them human too with the founder, to make them human too with the founder, right? Because the founder also lost right? Because the founder also lost right? Because the founder also lost deals and everybody loses deals. You deals and everybody loses deals. You deals and everybody loses deals. You know, I said there's no way that I mean, know, I said there's no way that I mean, know, I said there's no way that I mean, like, you know, in SAS, it we're lucky like, you know, in SAS, it we're lucky like, you know, in SAS, it we're lucky if we get a 20% close rate, but right if we get a 20% close rate, but right if we get a 20% close rate, but right now it's probably closer to 15, which

now it's probably closer to 15, which now it's probably closer to 15, which means all 85% of deals are not closing. means all 85% of deals are not closing. means all 85% of deals are not closing. And so, it's just as important to And so, it's just as important to And so, it's just as important to understand how people handle that. Um, I understand how people handle that. Um, I understand how people handle that. Um, I don't believe in no, I believe in not don't believe in no, I believe in not don't believe in no, I believe in not right now, so I call them NRNs. Um and right now, so I call them NRNs. Um and right now, so I call them NRNs. Um and so you know how are and so to me so you know how are and so to me so you know how are and so to me nurturing is on one of the most nurturing is on one of the most nurturing is on one of the most important skills that you know a important skills that you know a important skills that you know a marketing and sales person you know the marketing and sales person you know the marketing and sales person you know the marketing department perhaps partnered marketing department perhaps partnered marketing department perhaps partnered with the salesperson can have because with the salesperson can have because with the salesperson can have because sales is all about timing and so if the sales is all about timing and so if the sales is all about timing and so if the not right now happens then you know not right now happens then you know not right now happens then you know there's 85% of your pipeline that are there's 85% of your pipeline that are there's 85% of your pipeline that are future buyers and but most people again future buyers and but most people again future buyers and but most people again like one of the things I you know is one like one of the things I you know is one like one of the things I you know is one of the formalizations of processes I put of the formalizations of processes I put of the formalizations of processes I put together is a former nurture strategy together is a former nurture strategy together is a former nurture strategy Right? I mean, but most people don't Right? I mean, but most people don't Right? I mean, but most people don't have anything written down on how have anything written down on how have anything written down on how they're going to nurture and not right they're going to nurture and not right they're going to nurture and not right now. Whether that happens before they now. Whether that happens before they now. Whether that happens before they ever get into the pipeline, like, you ever get into the pipeline, like, you ever get into the pipeline, like, you know, call number one, no thanks, or know, call number one, no thanks, or know, call number one, no thanks, or whether that happens midway through the whether that happens midway through the whether that happens midway through the pipeline after that first interview, pipeline after that first interview, pipeline after that first interview, that first candidate, and we debrief, that first candidate, and we debrief, that first candidate, and we debrief, and they're like, wow. They're like, I I and they're like, wow. They're like, I I and they're like, wow. They're like, I I would have not those are questions I would have not those are questions I would have not those are questions I would not have asked. And I was like, would not have asked. And I was like, would not have asked. And I was like, that's right. And it's also why even that's right. And it's also why even that's right. And it's also why even sometimes I'm working with companies sometimes I'm working with companies sometimes I'm working with companies that have a recruiter or an HR that have a recruiter or an HR that have a recruiter or an HR department, I insist on running the department, I insist on running the department, I insist on running the phone screen myself. If you want to go phone screen myself. If you want to go phone screen myself. If you want to go through the resumes and pick them out through the resumes and pick them out through the resumes and pick them out and send them over to us, that's fine. I and send them over to us, that's fine. I and send them over to us, that's fine. I will teach them how to do that. But I will teach them how to do that. But I will teach them how to do that. But I need to do the we need to do the phone need to do the we need to do the phone need to do the we need to do the phone screens. Like, it's just a different screens. Like, it's just a different screens. Like, it's just a different hire. Today's episode is brought to you hire. Today's episode is brought to you hire. Today's episode is brought to you by Hunter.io, the B2B lead generation by Hunter.io, the B2B lead generation by Hunter.io, the B2B lead generation platform made for every professional.

platform made for every professional. platform made for every professional. Whether it's prospecting, fundraising, Whether it's prospecting, fundraising, Whether it's prospecting, fundraising, recruiting, link building, or just recruiting, link building, or just recruiting, link building, or just trying to connect with the right people, trying to connect with the right people, trying to connect with the right people, Hunter makes it easy. Think about the Hunter makes it easy. Think about the Hunter makes it easy. Think about the other end of the process of it. Changing other end of the process of it. Changing other end of the process of it. Changing gears, you um how many how many founders gears, you um how many how many founders gears, you um how many how many founders come back to you and say, "Gosh, I I come back to you and say, "Gosh, I I come back to you and say, "Gosh, I I need to be in those sales calls. I get need to be in those sales calls. I get need to be in those sales calls. I get so much value out of talking to folks. so much value out of talking to folks. so much value out of talking to folks. It helps me understand my pipeline. H It helps me understand my pipeline. H It helps me understand my pipeline. H how Christie, how do I reintegrate how Christie, how do I reintegrate how Christie, how do I reintegrate myself with my sales team without myself with my sales team without myself with my sales team without stepping on toes and without turning stepping on toes and without turning stepping on toes and without turning into the founder in every single call into the founder in every single call into the founder in every single call and trying to take over the entire and trying to take over the entire and trying to take over the entire call?" Like, call?" Like, call?" Like, >> yep. How how does that come up and like >> yep. How how does that come up and like >> yep. How how does that come up and like yeah how do you deal with that? yeah how do you deal with that? yeah how do you deal with that? >> So it's a double-edged sword because a >> So it's a double-edged sword because a >> So it's a double-edged sword because a lot of times the first sales leader is lot of times the first sales leader is lot of times the first sales leader is the founder. So we move them from the founder. So we move them from the founder. So we move them from founder seller to to the first sales founder seller to to the first sales founder seller to to the first sales leader of the organization. Um and so I leader of the organization. Um and so I leader of the organization. Um and so I have to work with them on that as well. have to work with them on that as well. have to work with them on that as well. And I, you know, I say to them, hey, And I, you know, I say to them, hey, And I, you know, I say to them, hey, listen, like I do think there's a place listen, like I do think there's a place listen, like I do think there's a place for you in the sales cycle, but I think for you in the sales cycle, but I think for you in the sales cycle, but I think it's towards the end, right? Or it's towards the end, right? Or it's towards the end, right? Or somewhere in the middle where you send somewhere in the middle where you send somewhere in the middle where you send an email to their, you know, seale an email to their, you know, seale an email to their, you know, seale equivalent or, you know, our sea level, equivalent or, you know, our sea level, equivalent or, you know, our sea level, you know, you know, person over there or you know, you know, person over there or you know, you know, person over there or whatever, whoever that would be, and whatever, whoever that would be, and whatever, whoever that would be, and just introduce yourself. Just say you're just introduce yourself. Just say you're just introduce yourself. Just say you're here if you need them. If you have any here if you need them. If you have any here if you need them. If you have any questions, you know, like, you know, I questions, you know, like, you know, I questions, you know, like, you know, I just got the update from Matt and you just got the update from Matt and you just got the update from Matt and you know, things sound like they're going know, things sound like they're going know, things sound like they're going really well, but I just wanted to really well, but I just wanted to really well, but I just wanted to introduce myself. there's anything that introduce myself. there's anything that introduce myself. there's anything that I can do while you know while you're you I can do while you know while you're you I can do while you know while you're you and Matt are working together please let and Matt are working together please let and Matt are working together please let me know I'm happy to help or or have a me know I'm happy to help or or have a me know I'm happy to help or or have a conversation and then you know so I

conversation and then you know so I conversation and then you know so I always say like the best time to do that always say like the best time to do that always say like the best time to do that is not when things are falling apart at is not when things are falling apart at is not when things are falling apart at the end the best time to do that right the end the best time to do that right the end the best time to do that right is early on when things are going well is early on when things are going well is early on when things are going well and nobody you know that you know the and nobody you know that you know the and nobody you know that you know the pressure is lower uh you know because pressure is lower uh you know because pressure is lower uh you know because sales is all about tension closing deals sales is all about tension closing deals sales is all about tension closing deals is all about t increasing the tension is all about t increasing the tension is all about t increasing the tension and so I think there's definitely and I and so I think there's definitely and I and so I think there's definitely and I would never want to not like I always would never want to not like I always would never want to not like I always say the best person to close the deal at say the best person to close the deal at say the best person to close the deal at the is whoever the best deal to close the is whoever the best deal to close the is whoever the best deal to close the deal of the company is, right? And the deal of the company is, right? And the deal of the company is, right? And that could be the founder at some point. that could be the founder at some point. that could be the founder at some point. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. Actually, bringing them back in as >> Yeah. Actually, bringing them back in as >> Yeah. Actually, bringing them back in as a closer is is often a very good a closer is is often a very good a closer is is often a very good texture. texture. texture. >> I want to talk about something about the >> I want to talk about something about the >> I want to talk about something about the sales proc process that both honestly if sales proc process that both honestly if sales proc process that both honestly if you're a founder and you're doing sales, you're a founder and you're doing sales, you're a founder and you're doing sales, this might often be the part you're the this might often be the part you're the this might often be the part you're the worst at. Um, but even if you're a new worst at. Um, but even if you're a new worst at. Um, but even if you're a new seller, and I think some of the folks seller, and I think some of the folks seller, and I think some of the folks who probably read your books, this who probably read your books, this who probably read your books, this probably I hope catches them like it did probably I hope catches them like it did probably I hope catches them like it did me. And that is that I forget exactly me. And that is that I forget exactly me. And that is that I forget exactly how you put it, but the summary is like how you put it, but the summary is like how you put it, but the summary is like taking responsibility for outcomes. Like taking responsibility for outcomes. Like taking responsibility for outcomes. Like I don't think I've ever put it that way.

I don't think I've ever put it that way. I don't think I've ever put it that way. Talk more about that. How did you come Talk more about that. How did you come Talk more about that. How did you come to that? Like do you find that that's to that? Like do you find that that's to that? Like do you find that that's more about the seller or the founder or more about the seller or the founder or more about the seller or the founder or both? like do people do people resonate both? like do people do people resonate both? like do people do people resonate with this idea as well as I think they with this idea as well as I think they with this idea as well as I think they should. should. should. >> Yeah. I call it creating a culture of >> Yeah. I call it creating a culture of >> Yeah. I call it creating a culture of accountability. Um and a lot of times in accountability. Um and a lot of times in accountability. Um and a lot of times in fairness to the world that I live in fairness to the world that I live in fairness to the world that I live in that hasn't really been necessary to a that hasn't really been necessary to a that hasn't really been necessary to a certain extent, right? I mean like certain extent, right? I mean like certain extent, right? I mean like you've got x number of employees. Half you've got x number of employees. Half you've got x number of employees. Half of them are developers. They're all in. of them are developers. They're all in. of them are developers. They're all in. They're working hard. But we've not had They're working hard. But we've not had They're working hard. But we've not had other like other departments haven't other like other departments haven't other like other departments haven't appeared yet, right? Marketing hasn't appeared yet, right? Marketing hasn't appeared yet, right? Marketing hasn't appeared. Sales hasn't appeared there. appeared. Sales hasn't appeared there. appeared. Sales hasn't appeared there. You know, finance hasn't appeared. You know, finance hasn't appeared. You know, finance hasn't appeared. perhaps you got a maybe you've got a perhaps you got a maybe you've got a perhaps you got a maybe you've got a fractional CFO and so the culture of fractional CFO and so the culture of fractional CFO and so the culture of accountability like you know people accountability like you know people accountability like you know people again especially in my B2B startup world again especially in my B2B startup world again especially in my B2B startup world my Silicon Valley life um you know my Silicon Valley life um you know my Silicon Valley life um you know culture is everything culture is everything culture is everything >> um and but but the way they talked about >> um and but but the way they talked about >> um and but but the way they talked about culture didn't make sense to me because culture didn't make sense to me because culture didn't make sense to me because it was more about you know I grew up in it was more about you know I grew up in it was more about you know I grew up in the you know beer fridge pingpong the you know beer fridge pingpong the you know beer fridge pingpong right like like jeans and sandals young right like like jeans and sandals young right like like jeans and sandals young boys um era right so yeah so like it was boys um era right so yeah so like it was boys um era right so yeah so like it was when they talked about culture. It when they talked about culture. It when they talked about culture. It wasn't a culture of accountability. It wasn't a culture of accountability. It wasn't a culture of accountability. It was this like it was like this was this like it was like this was this like it was like this playground like we're creating a an playground like we're creating a an playground like we're creating a an adult playground that you get to come to adult playground that you get to come to adult playground that you get to come to every day and and lunch will be free on every day and and lunch will be free on every day and and lunch will be free on Monday, Wednesday, and Friday and then Monday, Wednesday, and Friday and then Monday, Wednesday, and Friday and then masseuse comes in on Thursdays and I was masseuse comes in on Thursdays and I was masseuse comes in on Thursdays and I was like okay like you know and so why the like okay like you know and so why the like okay like you know and so why the hell would anybody want to leave?

hell would anybody want to leave? hell would anybody want to leave? >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Right. Why would anybody want to leave >> Right. Why would anybody want to leave >> Right. Why would anybody want to leave the playground? The playground is fun. the playground? The playground is fun. the playground? The playground is fun. Every day is fun. But but but at some Every day is fun. But but but at some Every day is fun. But but but at some point like someone's got to clean up the point like someone's got to clean up the point like someone's got to clean up the playground mess, you know? You can't playground mess, you know? You can't playground mess, you know? You can't just leave every day. So I I started, just leave every day. So I I started, just leave every day. So I I started, you know, I say there are two reasons you know, I say there are two reasons you know, I say there are two reasons why why everyone fails, companies and why why everyone fails, companies and why why everyone fails, companies and people alike. It's lack of discipline people alike. It's lack of discipline people alike. It's lack of discipline and lack of accountability culture. It and lack of accountability culture. It and lack of accountability culture. It wasn't that that, you know, if things wasn't that that, you know, if things wasn't that that, you know, if things were complete chaos because they didn't were complete chaos because they didn't were complete chaos because they didn't have it, but I would walk in sometimes have it, but I would walk in sometimes have it, but I would walk in sometimes and there would be maybe a seller or and there would be maybe a seller or and there would be maybe a seller or there'd been a seller and I would start there'd been a seller and I would start there'd been a seller and I would start to ask questions about quota. I would to ask questions about quota. I would to ask questions about quota. I would start ask questions about activity start ask questions about activity start ask questions about activity expectations. And I mean, you know, it expectations. And I mean, you know, it expectations. And I mean, you know, it doesn't surprise me anymore, but it doesn't surprise me anymore, but it doesn't surprise me anymore, but it might it surprises a lot of people when might it surprises a lot of people when might it surprises a lot of people when I say about a third of my clients who I say about a third of my clients who I say about a third of my clients who have somebody or have been doing who, have somebody or have been doing who, have somebody or have been doing who, you know, what have moved past founder you know, what have moved past founder you know, what have moved past founder led selling, but normally I came in led selling, but normally I came in led selling, but normally I came in because it's not working, you know, have because it's not working, you know, have because it's not working, you know, have a seller, but they don't have any kind a seller, but they don't have any kind a seller, but they don't have any kind of accountability whatsoever. And so, of accountability whatsoever. And so, of accountability whatsoever. And so, you know, and I said everybody needs you know, and I said everybody needs you know, and I said everybody needs like if you think about going back to like if you think about going back to like if you think about going back to childhood, like everybody needs guard childhood, like everybody needs guard childhood, like everybody needs guard rails, right? Right? And I say to and I rails, right? Right? And I say to and I rails, right? Right? And I say to and I say to leaders across the board, sales say to leaders across the board, sales say to leaders across the board, sales and or or anything, I want somebody when and or or anything, I want somebody when and or or anything, I want somebody when somebody comes home at night and the somebody comes home at night and the somebody comes home at night and the person that asks them, the cat, the dog, person that asks them, the cat, the dog, person that asks them, the cat, the dog, the spouse, the girlfriend, the the spouse, the girlfriend, the the spouse, the girlfriend, the boyfriend, the child, how was your day boyfriend, the child, how was your day boyfriend, the child, how was your day at work? They should be able to answer at work? They should be able to answer at work? They should be able to answer that. They should know when they leave that. They should know when they leave that. They should know when they leave the door, so to speak, and come in the the door, so to speak, and come in the the door, so to speak, and come in the other one whether they had a good day or other one whether they had a good day or other one whether they had a good day or a bad day. But when you haven't laid out a bad day. But when you haven't laid out a bad day. But when you haven't laid out what the expectations are, then that what the expectations are, then that what the expectations are, then that answer becomes, "Oh, it was fine." They answer becomes, "Oh, it was fine." They answer becomes, "Oh, it was fine." They know they had a bad day if they lost a know they had a bad day if they lost a know they had a bad day if they lost a deal. They know they had a good day if deal. They know they had a good day if deal. They know they had a good day if they won a deal. But Matt, as you know,

they won a deal. But Matt, as you know, they won a deal. But Matt, as you know, like those are those are a lot of days like those are those are a lot of days like those are those are a lot of days in between that. Right. Right. in between that. Right. Right. in between that. Right. Right. >> So, how do you know if the activities >> So, how do you know if the activities >> So, how do you know if the activities you did today you did today you did today equated to a good day or a bad day? equated to a good day or a bad day? equated to a good day or a bad day? That's how I describe it. I'm like That's how I describe it. I'm like That's how I describe it. I'm like people should know people should not be people should know people should not be people should know people should not be be curious, but you know, people should be curious, but you know, people should be curious, but you know, people should not be wondering whether or not they had not be wondering whether or not they had not be wondering whether or not they had a good or bad day when somebody asks a good or bad day when somebody asks a good or bad day when somebody asks them a question. them a question. them a question. >> Yeah. But you're right. There's so many >> Yeah. But you're right. There's so many >> Yeah. But you're right. There's so many I think this is the disconnect and why I I think this is the disconnect and why I I think this is the disconnect and why I love that phrase of taking love that phrase of taking love that phrase of taking responsibility for outcomes. It's like I responsibility for outcomes. It's like I responsibility for outcomes. It's like I find that the culture of accountability find that the culture of accountability find that the culture of accountability often turns into a culture of often turns into a culture of often turns into a culture of accountability of activities, not accountability of activities, not accountability of activities, not outcomes. And the activity is what outcomes. And the activity is what outcomes. And the activity is what you're doing, right? Did you make a you're doing, right? Did you make a you're doing, right? Did you make a call? Did you send an email? Those are call? Did you send an email? Those are call? Did you send an email? Those are very easily controllable and very low very easily controllable and very low very easily controllable and very low bars. But are you doing something to bars. But are you doing something to bars. But are you doing something to create an outcome is a very different create an outcome is a very different create an outcome is a very different framing. And I find that that's with the framing. And I find that that's with the framing. And I find that that's with the great sellers I've seen and look the great sellers I've seen and look the great sellers I've seen and look the ones that have been able to sell me too. ones that have been able to sell me too. ones that have been able to sell me too. Part of what they've done effectively is Part of what they've done effectively is Part of what they've done effectively is constantly making sure they're getting constantly making sure they're getting constantly making sure they're getting the next step or orchestrated, the next step or orchestrated, the next step or orchestrated, identifying blockers early, making sure identifying blockers early, making sure identifying blockers early, making sure those get removed. And it's if they're those get removed. And it's if they're those get removed. And it's if they're doing it right, it never feels like I'm doing it right, it never feels like I'm doing it right, it never feels like I'm being handled or managed or sold. It's being handled or managed or sold. It's being handled or managed or sold. It's it's a blessing. I was like, "Oh god, it's a blessing. I was like, "Oh god, it's a blessing. I was like, "Oh god, thank goodness they scheduled the next thank goodness they scheduled the next thank goodness they scheduled the next >> Right. Someone's got a plan. Yeah. And >> Right. Someone's got a plan. Yeah. And >> Right. Someone's got a plan. Yeah. And that's ultimately what you want, right?

that's ultimately what you want, right? that's ultimately what you want, right? If you're the decision maker is help me If you're the decision maker is help me If you're the decision maker is help me make the decision. And sometimes that make the decision. And sometimes that make the decision. And sometimes that means means means >> managing my schedule a little bit, >> managing my schedule a little bit, >> managing my schedule a little bit, managing the next steps, managing how managing the next steps, managing how managing the next steps, managing how and I find that that culture of account and I find that that culture of account and I find that that culture of account that taking responsibility for outcomes that taking responsibility for outcomes that taking responsibility for outcomes really for me that was a great way of really for me that was a great way of really for me that was a great way of framing that. I guess do you see framing that. I guess do you see framing that. I guess do you see activities replace outcomes? Like is activities replace outcomes? Like is activities replace outcomes? Like is that is that the default that a lot of that is that the default that a lot of that is that the default that a lot of people fall into of thinking people fall into of thinking people fall into of thinking >> I'm getting it done right? Well, and >> I'm getting it done right? Well, and >> I'm getting it done right? Well, and normally when things are bad, right? So, normally when things are bad, right? So, normally when things are bad, right? So, this like a punishment. So, I was this like a punishment. So, I was this like a punishment. So, I was working with a client um I don't know, working with a client um I don't know, working with a client um I don't know, four or five months ago and you know, I four or five months ago and you know, I four or five months ago and you know, I had to say to the CEO like, "Hey, this had to say to the CEO like, "Hey, this had to say to the CEO like, "Hey, this little game you've got going cuz that's little game you've got going cuz that's little game you've got going cuz that's kind of what it was where you get, you kind of what it was where you get, you kind of what it was where you get, you know, so many points for, you know, know, so many points for, you know, know, so many points for, you know, making a call and so many points for making a call and so many points for making a call and so many points for discovery and so many points for discovery and so many points for discovery and so many points for whatever and you couldn't leave at the whatever and you couldn't leave at the whatever and you couldn't leave at the end of the week until you had x number end of the week until you had x number end of the week until you had x number of points." I said there was no reason of points." I said there was no reason of points." I said there was no reason to bring me in to work with this team to bring me in to work with this team to bring me in to work with this team which I had worked with previously and which I had worked with previously and which I had worked with previously and because I said I don't I'm about quality because I said I don't I'm about quality because I said I don't I'm about quality not quantity and these are like not quantity and these are like not quantity and these are like multi-year sellers that you're treating multi-year sellers that you're treating multi-year sellers that you're treating like STRs like STRs like STRs and it's just a matter of time before and it's just a matter of time before and it's just a matter of time before turnover starts to happen you know and turnover starts to happen you know and turnover starts to happen you know and like it's in complete opposition of what like it's in complete opposition of what like it's in complete opposition of what I'm trying to teach them which is you I'm trying to teach them which is you I'm trying to teach them which is you know instead of trying to get off get on know instead of trying to get off get on know instead of trying to get off get on off the phone as quickly as possible so off the phone as quickly as possible so off the phone as quickly as possible so you can get your points and get on the you can get your points and get on the you can get your points and get on the next call they' hired me also teach them next call they' hired me also teach them next call they' hired me also teach them how to write custom and personalized how to write custom and personalized how to write custom and personalized emails of which they were getting zero emails of which they were getting zero emails of which they were getting zero points for. We were teaching them to points for. We were teaching them to points for. We were teaching them to check their brain at the door, right?

check their brain at the door, right? check their brain at the door, right? Calling for calling sake. First off, Calling for calling sake. First off, Calling for calling sake. First off, that is so not fun. that is so not fun. that is so not fun. Like the worst. Like the worst. Like the worst. >> Would I want to get up every day just to >> Would I want to get up every day just to >> Would I want to get up every day just to make 50 calls and you know and leave 48 make 50 calls and you know and leave 48 make 50 calls and you know and leave 48 voicemails and you know you know that is voicemails and you know you know that is voicemails and you know you know that is so not fun. Like that job is so unfun. so not fun. Like that job is so unfun. so not fun. Like that job is so unfun. Which is why the SDR job is a burnout Which is why the SDR job is a burnout Which is why the SDR job is a burnout job. job. job. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Right. because we make them do all these >> Right. because we make them do all these >> Right. because we make them do all these unfun things every single day for 18 unfun things every single day for 18 unfun things every single day for 18 months before we tell them that they're months before we tell them that they're months before we tell them that they're ready to sell, which they're not because ready to sell, which they're not because ready to sell, which they're not because they haven't talked to anybody and they they haven't talked to anybody and they they haven't talked to anybody and they haven't done anything. They haven't haven't done anything. They haven't haven't done anything. They haven't written a personalized email. Um, I get written a personalized email. Um, I get written a personalized email. Um, I get where people like I say panic causes bad where people like I say panic causes bad where people like I say panic causes bad decisions and the number one reason that decisions and the number one reason that decisions and the number one reason that people panic is anemic pipelines, right? people panic is anemic pipelines, right? people panic is anemic pipelines, right? And so when you when the pipeline is And so when you when the pipeline is And so when you when the pipeline is lower than it needs to be, then all of a lower than it needs to be, then all of a lower than it needs to be, then all of a sudden people are like then leaders push sudden people are like then leaders push sudden people are like then leaders push like they're like, "Well, then we need like they're like, "Well, then we need like they're like, "Well, then we need to do more like more of what wasn't to do more like more of what wasn't to do more like more of what wasn't working, working, working, >> right? That's what we're doing, right? >> right? That's what we're doing, right? >> right? That's what we're doing, right? We're going to do more of what wasn't We're going to do more of what wasn't We're going to do more of what wasn't working because if we do more, working because if we do more, working because if we do more, statistically, that's going to work out statistically, that's going to work out statistically, that's going to work out for us. for us. for us. >> No, >> No, >> No, >> I I had I think almost this exact same >> I I had I think almost this exact same >> I I had I think almost this exact same conversation with somebody yesterday, conversation with somebody yesterday, conversation with somebody yesterday, interestingly enough, um where I was interestingly enough, um where I was interestingly enough, um where I was like, okay, so what you're talking about like, okay, so what you're talking about like, okay, so what you're talking about is you're going to fix the volume part is you're going to fix the volume part is you're going to fix the volume part of the problem, but what we were just of the problem, but what we were just of the problem, but what we were just talking about is that it's not talking about is that it's not talking about is that it's not converting. So, is fixing the volume converting. So, is fixing the volume converting. So, is fixing the volume issue going to solve the conversion issue going to solve the conversion issue going to solve the conversion issue? And if it's not, then is it even issue? And if it's not, then is it even issue? And if it's not, then is it even worth doing? Okay. One thing you haven't worth doing? Okay. One thing you haven't worth doing? Okay. One thing you haven't talked about yet, the technology part, talked about yet, the technology part, talked about yet, the technology part, >> tech stack.

>> tech stack. >> tech stack. >> Um, >> Um, >> Um, >> there's a lot of people in marketing or >> there's a lot of people in marketing or >> there's a lot of people in marketing or sales or growth roles in general, sales or growth roles in general, sales or growth roles in general, revenue roles today, revenue roles today, revenue roles today, >> who will come in and they'll tell you, >> who will come in and they'll tell you, >> who will come in and they'll tell you, well, the secret is you've got to hook well, the secret is you've got to hook well, the secret is you've got to hook up these sets of tools and your tech up these sets of tools and your tech up these sets of tools and your tech stack needs to look like this. stack needs to look like this. stack needs to look like this. >> That doesn't seem core to your >> That doesn't seem core to your >> That doesn't seem core to your narrative, though. narrative, though. narrative, though. >> No. Um, I I I love a good tech stack. I >> No. Um, I I I love a good tech stack. I >> No. Um, I I I love a good tech stack. I love a good software. And in fact, love a good software. And in fact, love a good software. And in fact, they're getting more fun, right? like they're getting more fun, right? like they're getting more fun, right? like things that didn't things that didn't things that didn't things that didn't things that didn't things that didn't exist last year popping up and you're exist last year popping up and you're exist last year popping up and you're like, "Oh, like that's cool. We didn't like, "Oh, like that's cool. We didn't like, "Oh, like that's cool. We didn't have that before." Yeah. The reason I have that before." Yeah. The reason I have that before." Yeah. The reason I don't talk a ton about it is because don't talk a ton about it is because don't talk a ton about it is because without without without >> good processes, good strategies, >> good processes, good strategies, >> good processes, good strategies, it just helps you do more of what isn't it just helps you do more of what isn't it just helps you do more of what isn't working more quickly. Um, and so I'm working more quickly. Um, and so I'm working more quickly. Um, and so I'm like, "Okay, like sounds good, briefs." like, "Okay, like sounds good, briefs." like, "Okay, like sounds good, briefs." Well, if it's already bad, AI is just Well, if it's already bad, AI is just Well, if it's already bad, AI is just going to make it bad more quickly. Like, going to make it bad more quickly. Like, going to make it bad more quickly. Like, and you're just more bad, right? I'm now and you're just more bad, right? I'm now and you're just more bad, right? I'm now like doubling down on process, right? like doubling down on process, right? like doubling down on process, right? I'm now I'm now saying, you know, where I'm now I'm now saying, you know, where I'm now I'm now saying, you know, where you might have been able to be at 80% of you might have been able to be at 80% of you might have been able to be at 80% of good or you may be able to fly by the good or you may be able to fly by the good or you may be able to fly by the seat of your pants a little bit. No, seat of your pants a little bit. No, seat of your pants a little bit. No, because you're going to now go into an because you're going to now go into an because you're going to now go into an AI tool and give it a prompt of how you AI tool and give it a prompt of how you AI tool and give it a prompt of how you want something done. And if your prompt want something done. And if your prompt want something done. And if your prompt isn't, you know, crisp and and, you isn't, you know, crisp and and, you isn't, you know, crisp and and, you know, very succinct and what exactly you know, very succinct and what exactly you know, very succinct and what exactly you want, then if if your process is want, then if if your process is want, then if if your process is halfbaked, then that's just going to do halfbaked, then that's just going to do halfbaked, then that's just going to do something halfbaked a lot faster than something halfbaked a lot faster than something halfbaked a lot faster than you were doing it before. I mean, it you were doing it before. I mean, it you were doing it before. I mean, it sounds a little bit like VC funding in sounds a little bit like VC funding in sounds a little bit like VC funding in that regard. Um,

that regard. Um, that regard. Um, you know, if you're doing it wrong, you know, if you're doing it wrong, you know, if you're doing it wrong, adding more money to it is only going to adding more money to it is only going to adding more money to it is only going to help. I mean, that's ultimately what VC help. I mean, that's ultimately what VC help. I mean, that's ultimately what VC is really about, right? you raise money is really about, right? you raise money is really about, right? you raise money so you can go faster at doing whatever so you can go faster at doing whatever so you can go faster at doing whatever it is you're you're doing. You seem to it is you're you're doing. You seem to it is you're you're doing. You seem to have a very pragmatic point of view have a very pragmatic point of view have a very pragmatic point of view about VC like like I do, which is which about VC like like I do, which is which about VC like like I do, which is which is good. You're not obsessed with it. is good. You're not obsessed with it. is good. You're not obsessed with it. >> I say to founders like, "Hey, don't just >> I say to founders like, "Hey, don't just >> I say to founders like, "Hey, don't just take the money, right? The reason to get take the money, right? The reason to get take the money, right? The reason to get VC money is not just the money. It VC money is not just the money. It VC money is not just the money. It should be the experience level. So, should be the experience level. So, should be the experience level. So, who's going to sit on the board? Who's who's going to sit on the board? Who's who's going to sit on the board? Who's going to mentor you?" You know, I going to mentor you?" You know, I going to mentor you?" You know, I remember um I remember one of my very remember um I remember one of my very remember um I remember one of my very early founders. It was a cyber security early founders. It was a cyber security early founders. It was a cyber security company and it was actually it was company and it was actually it was company and it was actually it was actually client number one. And I kept actually client number one. And I kept actually client number one. And I kept coming to me with questions. I go, I'm coming to me with questions. I go, I'm coming to me with questions. I go, I'm sorry. I'm just confused. I'm like, sorry. I'm just confused. I'm like, sorry. I'm just confused. I'm like, there are people in that organization there are people in that organization there are people in that organization that gave you money that know the answer that gave you money that know the answer that gave you money that know the answer to these questions. Why aren't you to these questions. Why aren't you to these questions. Why aren't you getting that kind of help? And you know, getting that kind of help? And you know, getting that kind of help? And you know, I had to reach out to the VC, the man, I had to reach out to the VC, the man, I had to reach out to the VC, the man, the the managing partner who' put me in the the managing partner who' put me in the the managing partner who' put me in there and said, "Hey, you guys are there and said, "Hey, you guys are there and said, "Hey, you guys are failing this guy, and why aren't we failing this guy, and why aren't we failing this guy, and why aren't we doing quarterly portfolio, you know, doing quarterly portfolio, you know, doing quarterly portfolio, you know, 3-day sessions? If he's got these 3-day sessions? If he's got these 3-day sessions? If he's got these questions, everybody's got these questions, everybody's got these questions, everybody's got these questions. You know, you're, you know, questions. You know, you're, you know, questions. You know, you're, you know, like I said to him, I'm like, all of like I said to him, I'm like, all of like I said to him, I'm like, all of these people, like all the VC, the these people, like all the VC, the these people, like all the VC, the managing partners that I work with, managing partners that I work with, managing partners that I work with, general partners, they've all been general partners, they've all been general partners, they've all been there, done that, right? And that's why there, done that, right? And that's why there, done that, right? And that's why they have the money. they wouldn't have they have the money. they wouldn't have they have the money. they wouldn't have money to invest had something not gone money to invest had something not gone money to invest had something not gone well along the way. I do a lot of work well along the way. I do a lot of work well along the way. I do a lot of work mentorship with accelerators, you know, mentorship with accelerators, you know, mentorship with accelerators, you know, like and I worked with an organization like and I worked with an organization like and I worked with an organization that just coached people on pitch decks that just coached people on pitch decks that just coached people on pitch decks and you know, get in these pitch and you know, get in these pitch and you know, get in these pitch meetings and I would just say like, hey,

meetings and I would just say like, hey, meetings and I would just say like, hey, don't just take money to take money, don't just take money to take money, don't just take money to take money, right? Because at some point you're right? Because at some point you're right? Because at some point you're going to hit a wall and you're going to going to hit a wall and you're going to going to hit a wall and you're going to need someone to help you like figure it need someone to help you like figure it need someone to help you like figure it out, pick up some pieces or whatever. out, pick up some pieces or whatever. out, pick up some pieces or whatever. And so make sure that the backbone of And so make sure that the backbone of And so make sure that the backbone of the VC, you know, has the kind of people the VC, you know, has the kind of people the VC, you know, has the kind of people that you think are going to help you and that you think are going to help you and that you think are going to help you and that they're, you know, the kind of that they're, you know, the kind of that they're, you know, the kind of people that are going to sit on your people that are going to sit on your people that are going to sit on your board. So, you know, and I also say board. So, you know, and I also say board. So, you know, and I also say like, you know, I get tired of hearing like, you know, I get tired of hearing like, you know, I get tired of hearing because of the world I live in, I get because of the world I live in, I get because of the world I live in, I get tired of hearing like, you know, 67% of tired of hearing like, you know, 67% of tired of hearing like, you know, 67% of sellers are missing quota and 72% of sellers are missing quota and 72% of sellers are missing quota and 72% of sellers are missing quota and whatever sellers are missing quota and whatever sellers are missing quota and whatever that percentage to the door is for the that percentage to the door is for the that percentage to the door is for the day. And I'm like, I know, but the VCs day. And I'm like, I know, but the VCs day. And I'm like, I know, but the VCs are putting unrealistic expectations. are putting unrealistic expectations. are putting unrealistic expectations. And and like, so I said, like, but where And and like, so I said, like, but where And and like, so I said, like, but where does that start? That starts with them does that start? That starts with them does that start? That starts with them giving you an unrealistic goal so they giving you an unrealistic goal so they giving you an unrealistic goal so they can get their money back. And then you can get their money back. And then you can get their money back. And then you then you go and divide that by the three then you go and divide that by the three then you go and divide that by the three sellers you have when you really need sellers you have when you really need sellers you have when you really need five, right? Like no one like it's just five, right? Like no one like it's just five, right? Like no one like it's just you're putting unfair expectations on you're putting unfair expectations on you're putting unfair expectations on people. So I say, yes, there are lots of people. So I say, yes, there are lots of people. So I say, yes, there are lots of reasons why sellers aren't hitting reasons why sellers aren't hitting reasons why sellers aren't hitting quota, but some of them are VC related.

quota, but some of them are VC related. quota, but some of them are VC related. So yes, I have a very pragmatic view. So yes, I have a very pragmatic view. So yes, I have a very pragmatic view. I'm there lots of things that I could I'm there lots of things that I could I'm there lots of things that I could talk about in this topic, but I mean I'd talk about in this topic, but I mean I'd talk about in this topic, but I mean I'd like to see more diversity, you know, like to see more diversity, you know, like to see more diversity, you know, I'd like to see more women. I'd like to I'd like to see more women. I'd like to I'd like to see more women. I'd like to see more minorities within, you know, see more minorities within, you know, see more minorities within, you know, within um you know, the BC world. And I within um you know, the BC world. And I within um you know, the BC world. And I just read I just read an article the just read I just read an article the just read I just read an article the other day about a you know, women other day about a you know, women other day about a you know, women supporting women fund, you know, funding supporting women fund, you know, funding supporting women fund, you know, funding women out of California. And you know, women out of California. And you know, women out of California. And you know, we did that and they this happened in we did that and they this happened in we did that and they this happened in St. Louis, too. We had a group of women St. Louis, too. We had a group of women St. Louis, too. We had a group of women that came together. Um the founder of that came together. Um the founder of that came together. Um the founder of Build-A-Bear is here out of St. Louis. Build-A-Bear is here out of St. Louis. Build-A-Bear is here out of St. Louis. >> Yeah. and um Max yeah Maxine Clark and >> Yeah. and um Max yeah Maxine Clark and >> Yeah. and um Max yeah Maxine Clark and she started a VC with women for women um she started a VC with women for women um she started a VC with women for women um but we should but we shouldn't have I but we should but we shouldn't have I but we should but we shouldn't have I know good for her I love that like I know good for her I love that like I know good for her I love that like I love her for that I got involved but we love her for that I got involved but we love her for that I got involved but we shouldn't have to do that shouldn't have to do that shouldn't have to do that >> agreed yeah >> agreed yeah >> agreed yeah >> right >> right >> right >> 100% it's one of the first things I look >> 100% it's one of the first things I look >> 100% it's one of the first things I look at actually like I like you I I call it at actually like I like you I I call it at actually like I like you I I call it a pragmatic point of view because if you a pragmatic point of view because if you a pragmatic point of view because if you talk to a lot of early stage or talk to a lot of early stage or talk to a lot of early stage or first-time founders they don't think first-time founders they don't think first-time founders they don't think there are options like bootstrapping is there are options like bootstrapping is there are options like bootstrapping is what you do if you're apparently a nerd what you do if you're apparently a nerd what you do if you're apparently a nerd or something and you know VC is what you or something and you know VC is what you or something and you know VC is what you do if you're going to build a company do if you're going to build a company do if you're going to build a company and I'm like is it though like if you're and I'm like is it though like if you're and I'm like is it though like if you're going to build a big company probably if going to build a big company probably if going to build a big company probably if you're going to build something that has you're going to build something that has you're going to build something that has to move really quickly yeah probably to move really quickly yeah probably to move really quickly yeah probably does every single like I think SAS has does every single like I think SAS has does every single like I think SAS has proven enough now that you don't you proven enough now that you don't you proven enough now that you don't you don't have to derisk that first million don't have to derisk that first million don't have to derisk that first million I just love it when people are rational I just love it when people are rational I just love it when people are rational about VC because I think what also about VC because I think what also about VC because I think what also happens is VCs end up dealing with a lot happens is VCs end up dealing with a lot happens is VCs end up dealing with a lot of folks that aren't rational about it of folks that aren't rational about it of folks that aren't rational about it and like they just are like yeah like

and like they just are like yeah like and like they just are like yeah like yes the VC's job is to put pressure yes the VC's job is to put pressure yes the VC's job is to put pressure because their whole thing is to try to because their whole thing is to try to because their whole thing is to try to replace you know it's to get you to pay replace you know it's to get you to pay replace you know it's to get you to pay back but like yeah people think about it back but like yeah people think about it back but like yeah people think about it like it's the only way you can build a like it's the only way you can build a like it's the only way you can build a company and I find it's often the wrong company and I find it's often the wrong company and I find it's often the wrong way to build a lot of the companies that way to build a lot of the companies that way to build a lot of the companies that I'm talking to right whether that's the I'm talking to right whether that's the I'm talking to right whether that's the founding or whether they're advising or founding or whether they're advising or founding or whether they're advising or whatever it's just like it's it's often whatever it's just like it's it's often whatever it's just like it's it's often misaligned um I watched a really really misaligned um I watched a really really misaligned um I watched a really really incredible AI company who was working on incredible AI company who was working on incredible AI company who was working on exactly the right problem with the exact exactly the right problem with the exact exactly the right problem with the exact sort of approach to the technology that sort of approach to the technology that sort of approach to the technology that OpenAI was. And honestly, things like OpenAI was. And honestly, things like OpenAI was. And honestly, things like board dynamics and how much the board dynamics and how much the board dynamics and how much the valuation was too early, like all of valuation was too early, like all of valuation was too early, like all of these were things that ended up these were things that ended up these were things that ended up disrupting the company, not the tech, disrupting the company, not the tech, disrupting the company, not the tech, not whether or not they would build a not whether or not they would build a not whether or not they would build a new product. And that to me is an an new product. And that to me is an an new product. And that to me is an an example I see more often than not, which example I see more often than not, which example I see more often than not, which is unfortunate. I'm I'm fully for VC in is unfortunate. I'm I'm fully for VC in is unfortunate. I'm I'm fully for VC in the right circumstances. And I think the right circumstances. And I think the right circumstances. And I think you're right. It's um as a as a network you're right. It's um as a as a network you're right. It's um as a as a network function. function. function. Amazing.

Amazing. Amazing. >> Um I love Yeah, I love talking to you >> Um I love Yeah, I love talking to you >> Um I love Yeah, I love talking to you about this. This is fun. Um okay, I about this. This is fun. Um okay, I about this. This is fun. Um okay, I think we're getting close to time and I think we're getting close to time and I think we're getting close to time and I haven't even asked you where in Kansas haven't even asked you where in Kansas haven't even asked you where in Kansas you grew up. you grew up. you grew up. >> Um I grew up in several places in >> Um I grew up in several places in >> Um I grew up in several places in Kansas. Uh but I spent most of my time Kansas. Uh but I spent most of my time Kansas. Uh but I spent most of my time in Topeka, but I uh spent some of my in Topeka, but I uh spent some of my in Topeka, but I uh spent some of my formative years in a Menite community formative years in a Menite community formative years in a Menite community called Garnett, Kansas. Yep. Uh we were called Garnett, Kansas. Yep. Uh we were called Garnett, Kansas. Yep. Uh we were not Menanites but my dad worked for the not Menanites but my dad worked for the not Menanites but my dad worked for the United Telephone Company. So we got United Telephone Company. So we got United Telephone Company. So we got bumped around a lot. So I lived in this bumped around a lot. So I lived in this bumped around a lot. So I lived in this small Menite community which it was an small Menite community which it was an small Menite community which it was an amazing experience. Uh we the school was amazing experience. Uh we the school was amazing experience. Uh we the school was K through 12 all in one building. It was K through 12 all in one building. It was K through 12 all in one building. It was it was really Little House on the it was really Little House on the it was really Little House on the Prairie. Um and then we moved from there Prairie. Um and then we moved from there Prairie. Um and then we moved from there to Russell, Kansas, which I to Russell, Kansas, which I to Russell, Kansas, which I affectionately call the armpit of affectionately call the armpit of affectionately call the armpit of Kansas. Um sorry to Bob. My apologies to Kansas. Um sorry to Bob. My apologies to Kansas. Um sorry to Bob. My apologies to Bob Dole. Grew up in Russell, but it is Bob Dole. Grew up in Russell, but it is Bob Dole. Grew up in Russell, but it is it is awful. I mean, it was I I it is awful. I mean, it was I I it is awful. I mean, it was I I literally thought tumble weeds were only literally thought tumble weeds were only literally thought tumble weeds were only something that you saw on the Roadrunner something that you saw on the Roadrunner something that you saw on the Roadrunner uh cartoon until I moved to Russell, uh cartoon until I moved to Russell, uh cartoon until I moved to Russell, Kansas. Kansas. Kansas. >> We got there >> We got there >> We got there >> and I was like I was like, "Oh my gosh." >> and I was like I was like, "Oh my gosh." >> and I was like I was like, "Oh my gosh." Like I just thought that was a cartoon Like I just thought that was a cartoon Like I just thought that was a cartoon thing. I had no idea that tumble thing. I had no idea that tumble thing. I had no idea that tumble actually existed. But yeah, so uh no, I actually existed. But yeah, so uh no, I actually existed. But yeah, so uh no, I spent I spent uh time in three city and spent I spent uh time in three city and spent I spent uh time in three city and then Lawrence, as you know, I'm a then Lawrence, as you know, I'm a then Lawrence, as you know, I'm a Jay-Hawk, so spent four years in Jay-Hawk, so spent four years in Jay-Hawk, so spent four years in Lawrence. So yeah, I have uh I have very Lawrence. So yeah, I have uh I have very Lawrence. So yeah, I have uh I have very fond memories of Kansas, but yes, I I fond memories of Kansas, but yes, I I fond memories of Kansas, but yes, I I spent a lot of I lived lived around the spent a lot of I lived lived around the spent a lot of I lived lived around the state.

state. state. >> You had a lot of mindfulness time in >> You had a lot of mindfulness time in >> You had a lot of mindfulness time in >> Yes, I had a lot. >> Yes, I had a lot. >> Yes, I had a lot. >> I did. That's so fair. >> I did. That's so fair. >> I did. That's so fair. >> I grew up in Witchah and it's just time. >> I grew up in Witchah and it's just time. >> I grew up in Witchah and it's just time. >> That was my upbringing. And I I've >> That was my upbringing. And I I've >> That was my upbringing. And I I've mentioned to James a handful of times mentioned to James a handful of times mentioned to James a handful of times that like No, no, no, no. You don't that like No, no, no, no. You don't that like No, no, no, no. You don't understand. Basketball season is the understand. Basketball season is the understand. Basketball season is the real season. And uh real season. And uh real season. And uh It's Shockers and Jay-Hawks, man. It's Shockers and Jay-Hawks, man. It's Shockers and Jay-Hawks, man. Shockers. That's right. Shockers. That's right. Shockers. That's right. >> Every childhood team I had was either a >> Every childhood team I had was either a >> Every childhood team I had was either a Jay-Hawk or a Shocker for like, you Jay-Hawk or a Shocker for like, you Jay-Hawk or a Shocker for like, you know, a solid 10 years of my life. know, a solid 10 years of my life. know, a solid 10 years of my life. >> Nice. So, you didn't you didn't lean >> Nice. So, you didn't you didn't lean >> Nice. So, you didn't you didn't lean into the purple people as I into the purple people as I into the purple people as I affectionately call them. affectionately call them. affectionately call them. >> No. When you have Witchah State, >> No. When you have Witchah State, >> No. When you have Witchah State, >> you were closer to the purple people >> you were closer to the purple people >> you were closer to the purple people than you were to the Jay-Hawks. than you were to the Jay-Hawks. than you were to the Jay-Hawks. >> Well, not but I grew up a Shocker, so >> Well, not but I grew up a Shocker, so >> Well, not but I grew up a Shocker, so that was that was my alma mater that was that was my alma mater that was that was my alma mater originally. And um originally. And um originally. And um >> there we go. I was watching Shocker >> there we go. I was watching Shocker >> there we go. I was watching Shocker games from the time I was three years games from the time I was three years games from the time I was three years old probably or maybe even younger. Um, old probably or maybe even younger. Um, old probably or maybe even younger. Um, nice. nice. nice. >> And do you ever get back Do you ever go >> And do you ever get back Do you ever go >> And do you ever get back Do you ever go back to Kansas? back to Kansas? back to Kansas? >> Oh, all the time. Yeah. Um, yeah. I'm a >> Oh, all the time. Yeah. Um, yeah. I'm a >> Oh, all the time. Yeah. Um, yeah. I'm a season ticket holder for basketball and season ticket holder for basketball and season ticket holder for basketball and football. Um, and I have relatives that football. Um, and I have relatives that football. Um, and I have relatives that still live in Kansas City. So, we I'm still live in Kansas City. So, we I'm still live in Kansas City. So, we I'm there all the time. So, yeah.

there all the time. So, yeah. there all the time. So, yeah. >> You're in St. Louis, right? >> You're in St. Louis, right? >> You're in St. Louis, right? >> I am. Yep. It's >> I am. Yep. It's >> I am. Yep. It's >> a hall. >> a hall. >> a hall. >> Yep. The down the hardest days are the >> Yep. The down the hardest days are the >> Yep. The down the hardest days are the down and backs. down and backs. down and backs. >> Yeah. We play we play the Purple People >> Yeah. We play we play the Purple People >> Yeah. We play we play the Purple People Saturday at 11:00. So, we decided not to Saturday at 11:00. So, we decided not to Saturday at 11:00. So, we decided not to leave at 5:30 in the morning. So, we're leave at 5:30 in the morning. So, we're leave at 5:30 in the morning. So, we're leaving Friday night uh after my son leaving Friday night uh after my son leaving Friday night uh after my son gets off work. So, we'll leave about gets off work. So, we'll leave about gets off work. So, we'll leave about 5:00. And then I I asked him, I'm like, 5:00. And then I I asked him, I'm like, 5:00. And then I I asked him, I'm like, "Is it okay? We've got again we got so "Is it okay? We've got again we got so "Is it okay? We've got again we got so many people we can stay with and hang many people we can stay with and hang many people we can stay with and hang with." But I again, as I talked to you, with." But I again, as I talked to you, with." But I again, as I talked to you, I've been traveling for so many weeks. I I've been traveling for so many weeks. I I've been traveling for so many weeks. I said, "Okay, if we come back after the said, "Okay, if we come back after the said, "Okay, if we come back after the game on Saturday as opposed to spending game on Saturday as opposed to spending game on Saturday as opposed to spending the night and coming back on Sunday," he the night and coming back on Sunday," he the night and coming back on Sunday," he goes, "Yep." I'm like, "Thank you." goes, "Yep." I'm like, "Thank you." goes, "Yep." I'm like, "Thank you." I feel like one of the longest drives I feel like one of the longest drives I feel like one of the longest drives ever was after KU wins in Allen ever was after KU wins in Allen ever was after KU wins in Allen Fieldhouse and then driving back to Fieldhouse and then driving back to Fieldhouse and then driving back to Witchah. That was I felt like it was Witchah. That was I felt like it was Witchah. That was I felt like it was three times longer than the game. It three times longer than the game. It three times longer than the game. It wasn't actually. wasn't actually. wasn't actually. >> Well, you've been to the fog. >> Well, you've been to the fog. >> Well, you've been to the fog. >> Of course. Yeah, that's uh you got a >> Of course. Yeah, that's uh you got a >> Of course. Yeah, that's uh you got a bucket list item right there if you're bucket list item right there if you're bucket list item right there if you're even remotely a basketball fan. even remotely a basketball fan. even remotely a basketball fan. >> Yeah, we do. Uh we we appreciate it. I >> Yeah, we do. Uh we we appreciate it. I >> Yeah, we do. Uh we we appreciate it. I know we do. Um, but it is like every know we do. Um, but it is like every know we do. Um, but it is like every time I go like I can get a little time I go like I can get a little time I go like I can get a little tearary like just seeing like when they tearary like just seeing like when they tearary like just seeing like when they play the hype video on the screen like play the hype video on the screen like play the hype video on the screen like and I see all the past you know players and I see all the past you know players and I see all the past you know players I and that's what I think this is the I and that's what I think this is the I and that's what I think this is the hardest thing for me right now with NIL.

hardest thing for me right now with NIL. hardest thing for me right now with NIL. I was I was pro paying them. I was all I was I was pro paying them. I was all I was I was pro paying them. I was all in. I didn't know how we were going to in. I didn't know how we were going to in. I didn't know how we were going to do it. I didn't know how we're going to do it. I didn't know how we're going to do it. I didn't know how we're going to figure it out. I was all in on paying figure it out. I was all in on paying figure it out. I was all in on paying them and now it's like my worst them and now it's like my worst them and now it's like my worst nightmare because all these all these nightmare because all these all these nightmare because all these all these one and done. I mean like I just saw the one and done. I mean like I just saw the one and done. I mean like I just saw the I just saw what we think is the starting I just saw what we think is the starting I just saw what we think is the starting lineup for the basketball team and only lineup for the basketball team and only lineup for the basketball team and only two like and and only well only one two like and and only well only one two like and and only well only one player was there last year and so I said player was there last year and so I said player was there last year and so I said I just I I screenshotted reported to my I just I I screenshotted reported to my I just I I screenshotted reported to my son. I was like here we go again son. I was like here we go again son. I was like here we go again learning new names and numbers every learning new names and numbers every learning new names and numbers every year. Got to learn new names and year. Got to learn new names and year. Got to learn new names and numbers. And I was like because it was numbers. And I was like because it was numbers. And I was like because it was so much fun. I just uh Christian Brown so much fun. I just uh Christian Brown so much fun. I just uh Christian Brown you know just got just got a new you know just got just got a new you know just got just got a new contract with the with the Denver contract with the with the Denver contract with the with the Denver Nuggets for 125. But I I heard an Nuggets for 125. But I I heard an Nuggets for 125. But I I heard an interview last night with him that said, interview last night with him that said, interview last night with him that said, you know, I stayed in my high school and you know, I stayed in my high school and you know, I stayed in my high school and played from my high school for four played from my high school for four played from my high school for four years. I stayed at KU, you know, like I years. I stayed at KU, you know, like I years. I stayed at KU, you know, like I went to KU. I didn't leave KU. I went to KU. I didn't leave KU. I went to KU. I didn't leave KU. I graduated from KU and I want to do the graduated from KU and I want to do the graduated from KU and I want to do the same with the Nuggets. And I thought, same with the Nuggets. And I thought, same with the Nuggets. And I thought, >> wow, kid. Like, you know, he's, you >> wow, kid. Like, you know, he's, you >> wow, kid. Like, you know, he's, you know, he's got four, you know, four more know, he's got four, you know, four more know, he's got four, you know, four more years. But I said, "Wow, kid, years. But I said, "Wow, kid, years. But I said, "Wow, kid, >> that no one does that anymore." No. >> that no one does that anymore." No. >> that no one does that anymore." No. >> Like, like if you if you really like if >> Like, like if you if you really like if >> Like, like if you if you really like if you can really end your career with you can really end your career with you can really end your career with Denver Nuggets like you started your Denver Nuggets like you started your Denver Nuggets like you started your career, like you did a KU and you did a career, like you did a KU and you did a career, like you did a KU and you did a high school. I said you'll be one of high school. I said you'll be one of high school. I said you'll be one of like a like you'll be the unicorn in like a like you'll be the unicorn in like a like you'll be the unicorn in your world.

your world. your world. >> It's uh Yeah, it is weird. Oh, I I feel >> It's uh Yeah, it is weird. Oh, I I feel >> It's uh Yeah, it is weird. Oh, I I feel like that whole transiencece of like that whole transiencece of like that whole transiencece of careers these days, careers these days, careers these days, >> right? >> right? >> right? >> It's not even basketball ccentric, but >> It's not even basketball ccentric, but >> It's not even basketball ccentric, but like in general, it feels like like in general, it feels like like in general, it feels like everything is a combination of the NIL everything is a combination of the NIL everything is a combination of the NIL and the portal. It's funny that you say and the portal. It's funny that you say and the portal. It's funny that you say that because I can I make a I can bring that because I can I make a I can bring that because I can I make a I can bring this back to sales really quickly this back to sales really quickly this back to sales really quickly because people like you know you get because people like you know you get because people like you know you get that interview question from the that interview question from the that interview question from the candidate like what will make me candidate like what will make me candidate like what will make me successful here and my answer is and I'm successful here and my answer is and I'm successful here and my answer is and I'm just not I'm just like sassy and just not I'm just like sassy and just not I'm just like sassy and smartass about it. I'm like if you'll smartass about it. I'm like if you'll smartass about it. I'm like if you'll stay three years if you'll stay three stay three years if you'll stay three stay three years if you'll stay three years but you won't. And so you're just years but you won't. And so you're just years but you won't. And so you're just going to continue to make your life hard going to continue to make your life hard going to continue to make your life hard because the first year you don't know because the first year you don't know because the first year you don't know what the hell you're doing. You're just what the hell you're doing. You're just what the hell you're doing. You're just figuring it out. Year two, you've got figuring it out. Year two, you've got figuring it out. Year two, you've got your proc, you know, you understand your proc, you know, you understand your proc, you know, you understand where your superpowers are within the where your superpowers are within the where your superpowers are within the process that we've created and you're process that we've created and you're process that we've created and you're working in the process and then you working in the process and then you working in the process and then you leave because but if you'd stayed for leave because but if you'd stayed for leave because but if you'd stayed for the third year, all of those 85% of the third year, all of those 85% of the third year, all of those 85% of people who didn't buy from you, all people who didn't buy from you, all people who didn't buy from you, all those 85% of the NRN's the phone will those 85% of the NRN's the phone will those 85% of the NRN's the phone will start to ring, start to ring, start to ring, >> the email will start to come in. So I >> the email will start to come in. So I >> the email will start to come in. So I said, if you really want to be said, if you really want to be said, if you really want to be successful, you'll stay three years.

successful, you'll stay three years. successful, you'll stay three years. >> And I think like, you know, I feel the >> And I think like, you know, I feel the >> And I think like, you know, I feel the same way about basketball. same way about basketball. same way about basketball. I uh I couldn't agree more. U it's but I uh I couldn't agree more. U it's but I uh I couldn't agree more. U it's but most businesses are not very good at most businesses are not very good at most businesses are not very good at figuring out how to keep people for the figuring out how to keep people for the figuring out how to keep people for the third year or the fourth year. And I third year or the fourth year. And I third year or the fourth year. And I find that this is a problem we have on find that this is a problem we have on find that this is a problem we have on both sides of the business. It's not both sides of the business. It's not both sides of the business. It's not even just whether or not a sales rep can even just whether or not a sales rep can even just whether or not a sales rep can be successful. Organizations have a be successful. Organizations have a be successful. Organizations have a responsibility to make that responsibility to make that responsibility to make that >> That's right. >> That's right. >> That's right. >> appealing. when the um I just saw a >> appealing. when the um I just saw a >> appealing. when the um I just saw a statistic the other day. The average CRO statistic the other day. The average CRO statistic the other day. The average CRO stays between 12 and 15 months, the stays between 12 and 15 months, the stays between 12 and 15 months, the median time. So again, when you're if median time. So again, when you're if median time. So again, when you're if you're a seller and you've gone through you're a seller and you've gone through you're a seller and you've gone through if you stayed three years, you could if you stayed three years, you could if you stayed three years, you could hypothetically have three different hypothetically have three different hypothetically have three different leaders in three years versus again my leaders in three years versus again my leaders in three years versus again my coach Bill Self been around a while, coach Bill Self been around a while, coach Bill Self been around a while, right? Larry, you know, Larry before right? Larry, you know, Larry before right? Larry, you know, Larry before him, uh Roy before him, like they stay him, uh Roy before him, like they stay him, uh Roy before him, like they stay around a while, right? And so I do think around a while, right? And so I do think around a while, right? And so I do think you can make a nice parallel which is you can make a nice parallel which is you can make a nice parallel which is when we you know yes the CEO so you know when we you know yes the CEO so you know when we you know yes the CEO so you know call it the general manager or whatever call it the general manager or whatever call it the general manager or whatever is is normally around but not always by is is normally around but not always by is is normally around but not always by the way. Um but when the top of your the way. Um but when the top of your the way. Um but when the top of your umbrella food chain when the top of the umbrella food chain when the top of the umbrella food chain when the top of the sales umbrella is turning over 12 every sales umbrella is turning over 12 every sales umbrella is turning over 12 every 12 to 15 months which probably means the 12 to 15 months which probably means the 12 to 15 months which probably means the VP is doing the same and the director is VP is doing the same and the director is VP is doing the same and the director is doing the same. Yep.

doing the same. Yep. doing the same. Yep. >> Then there's there's inconsistency, >> Then there's there's inconsistency, >> Then there's there's inconsistency, right? You don't And then everybody right? You don't And then everybody right? You don't And then everybody wonders why they're struggling to hit wonders why they're struggling to hit wonders why they're struggling to hit quota. quota. quota. >> Yeah. And they're not going to learn >> Yeah. And they're not going to learn >> Yeah. And they're not going to learn what they need to learn to get to the what they need to learn to get to the what they need to learn to get to the next level. Agreed. Well done bringing next level. Agreed. Well done bringing next level. Agreed. Well done bringing it back, by the way. We're on it back, by the way. We're on it back, by the way. We're on that. that. that. >> I can make a sports analogy and a >> I can make a sports analogy and a >> I can make a sports analogy and a business analogy work every day. business analogy work every day. business analogy work every day. >> Perfect. Uh this was really great, >> Perfect. Uh this was really great, >> Perfect. Uh this was really great, Christie. Thank you. I think the Christie. Thank you. I think the Christie. Thank you. I think the audience is really going to appreciate audience is really going to appreciate audience is really going to appreciate it. Um it was great to meet you, it. Um it was great to meet you, it. Um it was great to meet you, >> Matt. Thanks so much for having me on. >> Matt. Thanks so much for having me on. >> Matt. Thanks so much for having me on. Once again, thank you to Christie for Once again, thank you to Christie for Once again, thank you to Christie for joining today's episode of Outfox. If joining today's episode of Outfox. If joining today's episode of Outfox. If you liked what you heard, please like, you liked what you heard, please like, you liked what you heard, please like, subscribe, and explore even more of the subscribe, and explore even more of the subscribe, and explore even more of the Outbox community by visiting Outbox community by visiting Outbox community by visiting www.outfoxed.hunter.io. She was Christy Jones. That was Matt She was Christy Jones. That was Matt Tharp. And we're out of time.