Outfoxed podcast by Hunter.io | Ep. 4: Mattias Liivak on getting blunt feedback on your product

This is Outfelt, the podcast brought to This is Outfelt, the podcast brought to you by hunter.io. Get ready for no you by hunter.io. Get ready for no you by hunter.io. Get ready for no [music] playbooks, no posturing, and no [music] playbooks, no posturing, and no [music] playbooks, no posturing, and no ego. This is for the builders, not ego. This is for the builders, not ego. This is for the builders, not [music] the theorists. I'm your co-host, [music] the theorists. I'm your co-host, [music] the theorists. I'm your co-host, James Milson, joined by Hunter CEO and James Milson, joined by Hunter CEO and James Milson, joined by Hunter CEO and Outbox co-host, Matt Thab, [music] and Outbox co-host, Matt Thab, [music] and Outbox co-host, Matt Thab, [music] and this is Matias Levak. Welcome to the this is Matias Levak. Welcome to the this is Matias Levak. Welcome to the show, Matias. show, Matias. show, Matias. >> Hey, great to be here. Thanks for >> Hey, great to be here. Thanks for >> Hey, great to be here. Thanks for inviting me. [music] We are super inviting me. [music] We are super inviting me. [music] We are super thrilled to have you join us today to thrilled to have you join us today to thrilled to have you join us today to discuss your company process plot, the discuss your company process plot, the discuss your company process plot, the journey you've taken from PR consultant journey you've taken from PR consultant journey you've taken from PR consultant to VP of growth enablement and beyond to VP of growth enablement and beyond to VP of growth enablement and beyond and the reality of what it takes to grow and the reality of what it takes to grow and the reality of what it takes to grow something that you're passionate about. something that you're passionate about. something that you're passionate about. But before we get into all of that, can But before we get into all of that, can But before we get into all of that, can you just tell our listeners a little bit you just tell our listeners a little bit you just tell our listeners a little bit about yourself and your journey? about yourself and your journey? about yourself and your journey? >> So I'm 38 years old. For the last 12 13 >> So I'm 38 years old. For the last 12 13 >> So I'm 38 years old. For the last 12 13 years, I've been in the IT industry in years, I've been in the IT industry in years, I've been in the IT industry in uh PR and marketing roles uh mostly in uh PR and marketing roles uh mostly in uh PR and marketing roles uh mostly in like BV uh enterprise targeting uh like BV uh enterprise targeting uh like BV uh enterprise targeting uh organizations. organizations. organizations. Uh prior to that I worked for 5 years as Uh prior to that I worked for 5 years as Uh prior to that I worked for 5 years as a PR consultant. Uh that got uh really a PR consultant. Uh that got uh really a PR consultant. Uh that got uh really tiring in the end. So that's why I tiring in the end. So that's why I tiring in the end. So that's why I switched to it. Uh I think I'm kind of a switched to it. Uh I think I'm kind of a switched to it. Uh I think I'm kind of a rare exception in terms of my career rare exception in terms of my career rare exception in terms of my career path in the sense that I was for 10 path in the sense that I was for 10 path in the sense that I was for 10 years in the same organization called years in the same organization called years in the same organization called Forumo. So we did mobile uh payments.

Forumo. So we did mobile uh payments. Forumo. So we did mobile uh payments. Eventually we got uh acquired. I stayed Eventually we got uh acquired. I stayed Eventually we got uh acquired. I stayed on at the uh company that acquired us on at the uh company that acquired us on at the uh company that acquired us for for for couple of more years and then uh took a couple of more years and then uh took a couple of more years and then uh took a career break uh joined a circular career break uh joined a circular career break uh joined a circular technologist uh company called Foxway. technologist uh company called Foxway. technologist uh company called Foxway. uh where I'm still working uh part-time uh where I'm still working uh part-time uh where I'm still working uh part-time and in parallel uh building uh pro with and in parallel uh building uh pro with and in parallel uh building uh pro with my two uh co-founders. Uh so I've never my two uh co-founders. Uh so I've never my two uh co-founders. Uh so I've never actually kind of been in this uh real actually kind of been in this uh real actually kind of been in this uh real sales or business development role. It's sales or business development role. It's sales or business development role. It's something that I now have had to pick up something that I now have had to pick up something that I now have had to pick up as as one of the uh co-founders. Yeah. as as one of the uh co-founders. Yeah. as as one of the uh co-founders. Yeah. When I'm not building process plot then When I'm not building process plot then When I'm not building process plot then I have a six-year-old daughter. So I have a six-year-old daughter. So I have a six-year-old daughter. So obviously that's takes away a bit of bit obviously that's takes away a bit of bit obviously that's takes away a bit of bit of my time. Uh I have a 11year-old of my time. Uh I have a 11year-old of my time. Uh I have a 11year-old Italian greyhound. Uh that takes a bit Italian greyhound. Uh that takes a bit Italian greyhound. Uh that takes a bit of time but uh when I when I do have of time but uh when I when I do have of time but uh when I when I do have free time then I do Brazilian jiu-jitsu free time then I do Brazilian jiu-jitsu free time then I do Brazilian jiu-jitsu uh and board games uh pop quizzes uh uh and board games uh pop quizzes uh uh and board games uh pop quizzes uh video games. So I'm kind of a I guess a video games. So I'm kind of a I guess a video games. So I'm kind of a I guess a nerd nerd at heart to tries to appear nerd nerd at heart to tries to appear nerd nerd at heart to tries to appear tough. So, keeping uh keeping kind of tough. So, keeping uh keeping kind of tough. So, keeping uh keeping kind of this balance between uh yeah, nerdy this balance between uh yeah, nerdy this balance between uh yeah, nerdy hobbies and uh and violence uh through hobbies and uh and violence uh through hobbies and uh and violence uh through wrestling.

wrestling. wrestling. >> It's a it's a great way to make sure >> It's a it's a great way to make sure >> It's a it's a great way to make sure people throw the game to you in a board people throw the game to you in a board people throw the game to you in a board game, right? If they're knowing that if game, right? If they're knowing that if game, right? If they're knowing that if they know you're studying Brazilian they know you're studying Brazilian they know you're studying Brazilian jiu-jitsu and they don't want to have to jiu-jitsu and they don't want to have to jiu-jitsu and they don't want to have to deal with that. What's your favorite deal with that. What's your favorite deal with that. What's your favorite board game? I think Puerto Rico simply board game? I think Puerto Rico simply board game? I think Puerto Rico simply because it's one that I've played the uh because it's one that I've played the uh because it's one that I've played the uh played the most. It's like uh simple and played the most. It's like uh simple and played the most. It's like uh simple and uh repeatable. Uh so yeah, I think that uh repeatable. Uh so yeah, I think that uh repeatable. Uh so yeah, I think that has been around for in in our kind of has been around for in in our kind of has been around for in in our kind of group of friends for for more than uh group of friends for for more than uh group of friends for for more than uh more than 10 years. And uh we had also more than 10 years. And uh we had also more than 10 years. And uh we had also like a 5-year campaign of this uh Gloom like a 5-year campaign of this uh Gloom like a 5-year campaign of this uh Gloom Haven, which is this uh gigantic 20 kg Haven, which is this uh gigantic 20 kg Haven, which is this uh gigantic 20 kg box of uh 10,000 pieces that uh takes as box of uh 10,000 pieces that uh takes as box of uh 10,000 pieces that uh takes as much time to set up the game than to much time to set up the game than to much time to set up the game than to play it. But it it was really really fun play it. But it it was really really fun play it. But it it was really really fun as well. So we completed this campaign I as well. So we completed this campaign I as well. So we completed this campaign I think about a year or uh yeah about a think about a year or uh yeah about a think about a year or uh yeah about a year ago. Took us quite a while to get year ago. Took us quite a while to get year ago. Took us quite a while to get there, but uh but it was fun. If you've there, but uh but it was fun. If you've there, but uh but it was fun. If you've never played James, Gloom Haven is an never played James, Gloom Haven is an never played James, Gloom Haven is an awesome game. You almost need to have awesome game. You almost need to have awesome game. You almost need to have though a room in your house where you though a room in your house where you though a room in your house where you can set it up and leave it because if can set it up and leave it because if can set it up and leave it because if you have to set it up and take it down you have to set it up and take it down you have to set it up and take it down every time, like you'll never play. Like every time, like you'll never play. Like every time, like you'll never play. Like that's Am I wrong, Matias? Is that that's Am I wrong, Matias? Is that that's Am I wrong, Matias? Is that >> Well, that's correct. I mean, that was >> Well, that's correct. I mean, that was >> Well, that's correct. I mean, that was the main blocker that you need like a 6 the main blocker that you need like a 6 the main blocker that you need like a 6 to 8 hour time slot to commit to if if to 8 hour time slot to commit to if if to 8 hour time slot to commit to if if you want to set it up every time. So, you want to set it up every time. So, you want to set it up every time. So, it's uh better to have a dedicated room it's uh better to have a dedicated room it's uh better to have a dedicated room for it. How do you find time to do for it. How do you find time to do for it. How do you find time to do Brazilian jiu-jitsu?

Brazilian jiu-jitsu? Brazilian jiu-jitsu? >> Not much. A couple of times per week and >> Not much. A couple of times per week and >> Not much. A couple of times per week and since I'm also 38 and I think that's since I'm also 38 and I think that's since I'm also 38 and I think that's kind of the upper limit of what what my kind of the upper limit of what what my kind of the upper limit of what what my body can take because I've been doing it body can take because I've been doing it body can take because I've been doing it for two and a half years now. Uh for two and a half years now. Uh for two and a half years now. Uh fortunately the gym is quite close so fortunately the gym is quite close so fortunately the gym is quite close so it's a couple of hours in the uh in the it's a couple of hours in the uh in the it's a couple of hours in the uh in the evening. But I I learned that it's kind evening. But I I learned that it's kind evening. But I I learned that it's kind of it's good to kind of have this stress of it's good to kind of have this stress of it's good to kind of have this stress reset there and just shut the brain off reset there and just shut the brain off reset there and just shut the brain off from everything else going on in the from everything else going on in the from everything else going on in the life. But uh I really shouldn't push too life. But uh I really shouldn't push too life. But uh I really shouldn't push too far with it. So I I tend to notice that far with it. So I I tend to notice that far with it. So I I tend to notice that if you go too frequently the injuries if you go too frequently the injuries if you go too frequently the injuries start piling up. So it's definitely not start piling up. So it's definitely not start piling up. So it's definitely not something that you know if you do it the something that you know if you do it the something that you know if you do it the 20 versus if you do it the 40 it's it's 20 versus if you do it the 40 it's it's 20 versus if you do it the 40 it's it's kind of a different sport and how you kind of a different sport and how you kind of a different sport and how you how you have to approach it. Do you both how you have to approach it. Do you both how you have to approach it. Do you both your knees still work? your knees still work? your knees still work? >> Fortunately, yes. I've had M one MCL >> Fortunately, yes. I've had M one MCL >> Fortunately, yes. I've had M one MCL injury, but it seems that even injury, but it seems that even injury, but it seems that even fortunately without surgery, it's kind fortunately without surgery, it's kind fortunately without surgery, it's kind of gone away. So, it's uh uh in I'm kind of gone away. So, it's uh uh in I'm kind of gone away. So, it's uh uh in I'm kind of viewing it in a positive way where of viewing it in a positive way where of viewing it in a positive way where something small is constantly breaking.

something small is constantly breaking. something small is constantly breaking. Then I go to a physiootherapist, they Then I go to a physiootherapist, they Then I go to a physiootherapist, they show me some exercises to do and that show me some exercises to do and that show me some exercises to do and that gets added to the stack of uh like uh gets added to the stack of uh like uh gets added to the stack of uh like uh previous exercises that I already have previous exercises that I already have previous exercises that I already have to do to just keep the body running. But to do to just keep the body running. But to do to just keep the body running. But uh but yeah when I talk with my parents uh but yeah when I talk with my parents uh but yeah when I talk with my parents or somebody else as well then I usually or somebody else as well then I usually or somebody else as well then I usually just ask them that you know do you know just ask them that you know do you know just ask them that you know do you know any like 70 80 year old who doesn't have any like 70 80 year old who doesn't have any like 70 80 year old who doesn't have back problems that doesn't have like hip back problems that doesn't have like hip back problems that doesn't have like hip issues that it's eventually going to get issues that it's eventually going to get issues that it's eventually going to get around to you anyway so I might as well around to you anyway so I might as well around to you anyway so I might as well kind of already learn how to deal with kind of already learn how to deal with kind of already learn how to deal with those issues now because they're going those issues now because they're going those issues now because they're going to be there anyway at some point so it's to be there anyway at some point so it's to be there anyway at some point so it's uh doesn't really in in the long term uh uh doesn't really in in the long term uh uh doesn't really in in the long term uh matter that much. a very realist point matter that much. a very realist point matter that much. a very realist point of view on [clears throat] injuries of view on [clears throat] injuries of view on [clears throat] injuries later in life. I guess that's a a good later in life. I guess that's a a good later in life. I guess that's a a good thing to tell yourself to not keep you thing to tell yourself to not keep you thing to tell yourself to not keep you from doing Brazilian jiu-jitsu or from doing Brazilian jiu-jitsu or from doing Brazilian jiu-jitsu or something else. That's good. something else. That's good. something else. That's good. >> So, you've you've obviously got a lot >> So, you've you've obviously got a lot >> So, you've you've obviously got a lot going on, Matias. Um, what's one thing going on, Matias. Um, what's one thing going on, Matias. Um, what's one thing that's been going on this week that's that's been going on this week that's that's been going on this week that's just a reality of what happens when just a reality of what happens when just a reality of what happens when you're trying to grow something like you're trying to grow something like you're trying to grow something like Process Plot? Yeah, I think for me uh at Process Plot? Yeah, I think for me uh at Process Plot? Yeah, I think for me uh at the kind of end of the my my role in in the kind of end of the my my role in in the kind of end of the my my role in in my last organization, I kind of quite my last organization, I kind of quite my last organization, I kind of quite heavily burned out uh and I learned from heavily burned out uh and I learned from heavily burned out uh and I learned from that that if I want to do something that that if I want to do something that that if I want to do something sustainably in the future, I need to sustainably in the future, I need to sustainably in the future, I need to pace myself and uh there needs to be a pace myself and uh there needs to be a pace myself and uh there needs to be a balance between the career and balance between the career and balance between the career and everything else that's going on in the everything else that's going on in the everything else that's going on in the life. I know this kind of sounds like life. I know this kind of sounds like life. I know this kind of sounds like the zippish uh eight years in Tibet or

the zippish uh eight years in Tibet or the zippish uh eight years in Tibet or whatever that movie was but but I think whatever that movie was but but I think whatever that movie was but but I think it really is important to keep a balance it really is important to keep a balance it really is important to keep a balance and uh for that I try to like on a and uh for that I try to like on a and uh for that I try to like on a quarterly basis look at what I'm doing quarterly basis look at what I'm doing quarterly basis look at what I'm doing in life what are the different routines in life what are the different routines in life what are the different routines I have habits uh good habits bad habits I have habits uh good habits bad habits I have habits uh good habits bad habits how does my schedule look like uh um and how does my schedule look like uh um and how does my schedule look like uh um and kind of do a self assessment of am I in kind of do a self assessment of am I in kind of do a self assessment of am I in general feeling happy in life. If I'm general feeling happy in life. If I'm general feeling happy in life. If I'm not feeling happy, which are the areas not feeling happy, which are the areas not feeling happy, which are the areas that are suffering and what can I kind that are suffering and what can I kind that are suffering and what can I kind of add or remove from my uh routine to of add or remove from my uh routine to of add or remove from my uh routine to um to make it better just to have a um to make it better just to have a um to make it better just to have a little bit of a structure in the little bit of a structure in the little bit of a structure in the background where it would kind of put background where it would kind of put background where it would kind of put mentally in a place where I'm able to mentally in a place where I'm able to mentally in a place where I'm able to focus on the things that I actually want focus on the things that I actually want focus on the things that I actually want to uh want to get done. So, it's not I'm to uh want to get done. So, it's not I'm to uh want to get done. So, it's not I'm definitely not like this. Get up at 4:00 definitely not like this. Get up at 4:00 definitely not like this. Get up at 4:00 a.m., go running, then do yoga, then a.m., go running, then do yoga, then a.m., go running, then do yoga, then listen to the podcast, and by 8:00 a.m. listen to the podcast, and by 8:00 a.m. listen to the podcast, and by 8:00 a.m. you're like already done with half of you're like already done with half of you're like already done with half of the day when other people are waking up.

the day when other people are waking up. the day when other people are waking up. I'm actually super lazy. Uh, but I' I've I'm actually super lazy. Uh, but I' I've I'm actually super lazy. Uh, but I' I've kind of discovered that for me, this uh kind of discovered that for me, this uh kind of discovered that for me, this uh planning actually helps to be more lazy, planning actually helps to be more lazy, planning actually helps to be more lazy, that I really try to focus on the things that I really try to focus on the things that I really try to focus on the things that as much as possible give me energy that as much as possible give me energy that as much as possible give me energy rather than detract energy. and to kind rather than detract energy. and to kind rather than detract energy. and to kind of figure out how to get rid or avoid of figure out how to get rid or avoid of figure out how to get rid or avoid the things that uh that are kind of the the things that uh that are kind of the the things that uh that are kind of the energy uh energy drain. So yeah, just in energy uh energy drain. So yeah, just in energy uh energy drain. So yeah, just in the beginning of this this week, I had the beginning of this this week, I had the beginning of this this week, I had kind of a longer internal uh monologue kind of a longer internal uh monologue kind of a longer internal uh monologue and planning session to to figure my uh and planning session to to figure my uh and planning session to to figure my uh life out which I try to do on a on a life out which I try to do on a on a life out which I try to do on a on a recurring basis. recurring basis. recurring basis. >> Nice. Is there anything that you've >> Nice. Is there anything that you've >> Nice. Is there anything that you've implemented that gives you energy that implemented that gives you energy that implemented that gives you energy that surprised you? like you were you were surprised you? like you were you were surprised you? like you were you were shocked that that was the thing that shocked that that was the thing that shocked that that was the thing that ultimately gave you energy as opposed to ultimately gave you energy as opposed to ultimately gave you energy as opposed to take it away. I think kind of physical take it away. I think kind of physical take it away. I think kind of physical activity is always this where activity is always this where activity is always this where uh you're exhausted at the end of the uh you're exhausted at the end of the uh you're exhausted at the end of the day then you feel that am I really going day then you feel that am I really going day then you feel that am I really going to now go into the gym or or yeah we had to now go into the gym or or yeah we had to now go into the gym or or yeah we had to go and and wrestle and it's kind of to go and and wrestle and it's kind of to go and and wrestle and it's kind of this continuous discovery again that this continuous discovery again that this continuous discovery again that there's almost never a case where you there's almost never a case where you there's almost never a case where you feel uh bad after uh after a workout.

feel uh bad after uh after a workout. feel uh bad after uh after a workout. So, it's not necessarily that it's like So, it's not necessarily that it's like So, it's not necessarily that it's like too surprising, but it always seems too surprising, but it always seems too surprising, but it always seems like, or not always, but especially if like, or not always, but especially if like, or not always, but especially if you're tired, it seems like this extra you're tired, it seems like this extra you're tired, it seems like this extra effort, but then I try to constantly effort, but then I try to constantly effort, but then I try to constantly remind myself that uh yeah, there's remind myself that uh yeah, there's remind myself that uh yeah, there's almost never a case where I come out of almost never a case where I come out of almost never a case where I come out of the gym and uh I think that, oh, this the gym and uh I think that, oh, this the gym and uh I think that, oh, this this was like a very bad decision. It's this was like a very bad decision. It's this was like a very bad decision. It's rather always that I feel better, more rather always that I feel better, more rather always that I feel better, more energized, and just in general like uh energized, and just in general like uh energized, and just in general like uh like happy. But yeah, on the other hand, like happy. But yeah, on the other hand, like happy. But yeah, on the other hand, like stuff uh uh I tried to like like stuff uh uh I tried to like like stuff uh uh I tried to like meditate as well and that's something meditate as well and that's something meditate as well and that's something that I funny enough kind of cut out that I funny enough kind of cut out that I funny enough kind of cut out because eventually it started feeling because eventually it started feeling because eventually it started feeling like a chore. So uh rather than taking like a chore. So uh rather than taking like a chore. So uh rather than taking stress away like trying to think about stress away like trying to think about stress away like trying to think about oh I need to now meditate and do some oh I need to now meditate and do some oh I need to now meditate and do some kind of breathing exercises. I still do kind of breathing exercises. I still do kind of breathing exercises. I still do them from time to time but having them them from time to time but having them them from time to time but having them on this kind of uh fixed routine uh on this kind of uh fixed routine uh on this kind of uh fixed routine uh creates this pressure that now I have to creates this pressure that now I have to creates this pressure that now I have to have to like do it. So so I think in have to like do it. So so I think in have to like do it. So so I think in general also during these planning general also during these planning general also during these planning sessions I always try to think from the sessions I always try to think from the sessions I always try to think from the perspective that nobody is like perspective that nobody is like perspective that nobody is like expecting anything from me most of the expecting anything from me most of the expecting anything from me most of the things that I I kind of create this things that I I kind of create this things that I I kind of create this complexity in my life are are because of complexity in my life are are because of complexity in my life are are because of myself and it's up to me to kind of myself and it's up to me to kind of myself and it's up to me to kind of remove that complexity. It's not like I remove that complexity. It's not like I remove that complexity. It's not like I get a medal from someone or uh or praise get a medal from someone or uh or praise get a medal from someone or uh or praise from someone else if I do or don't do from someone else if I do or don't do from someone else if I do or don't do something. So So it's kind of this uh something. So So it's kind of this uh something. So So it's kind of this uh Valenc game.

Valenc game. Valenc game. >> Is this the when you went through these >> Is this the when you went through these >> Is this the when you went through these through these periods where you reflect through these periods where you reflect through these periods where you reflect every quarter and I remember hearing every quarter and I remember hearing every quarter and I remember hearing something just this morning uh from something just this morning uh from something just this morning uh from Quinton Tarantino where he that he did Quinton Tarantino where he that he did Quinton Tarantino where he that he did something like this in his late 20s. something like this in his late 20s. something like this in his late 20s. only did it once and he kind of like only did it once and he kind of like only did it once and he kind of like listed out all the things that he was listed out all the things that he was listed out all the things that he was struggling with then came up solutions struggling with then came up solutions struggling with then came up solutions and then didn't go to sleep which isn't and then didn't go to sleep which isn't and then didn't go to sleep which isn't surprising um and he went ahead and kind surprising um and he went ahead and kind surprising um and he went ahead and kind of like just implemented whatever of like just implemented whatever of like just implemented whatever actions he thought were necessary but actions he thought were necessary but actions he thought were necessary but before we get into our first segment before we get into our first segment before we get into our first segment around ICP lessons um could you just did around ICP lessons um could you just did around ICP lessons um could you just did did the idea of process plot come out of did the idea of process plot come out of did the idea of process plot come out of these sort of quarterly reviews and then these sort of quarterly reviews and then these sort of quarterly reviews and then what is process plot for our listeners what is process plot for our listeners what is process plot for our listeners >> for us I think the idea came about quite >> for us I think the idea came about quite >> for us I think the idea came about quite uh randomly and it wasn't as part of uh randomly and it wasn't as part of uh randomly and it wasn't as part of this quarterly planning session. So how this quarterly planning session. So how this quarterly planning session. So how we actually started off was that me and we actually started off was that me and we actually started off was that me and one of my uh co-founders during the one of my uh co-founders during the one of my uh co-founders during the beginning of last spring we were beginning of last spring we were beginning of last spring we were thinking that we're not uh too ecstatic thinking that we're not uh too ecstatic thinking that we're not uh too ecstatic about our current careers and we want to about our current careers and we want to about our current careers and we want to do something different. So the initial do something different. So the initial do something different. So the initial idea was was that we have a lot of idea was was that we have a lot of idea was was that we have a lot of experience in kind of change management, experience in kind of change management, experience in kind of change management, project management, getting uh like new project management, getting uh like new project management, getting uh like new product uh GTM done. So maybe we do some product uh GTM done. So maybe we do some product uh GTM done. So maybe we do some uh consulting uh gigs, try to get uh uh consulting uh gigs, try to get uh uh consulting uh gigs, try to get uh that going. But then we kind of realized that going. But then we kind of realized that going. But then we kind of realized that the kind of services that we would that the kind of services that we would that the kind of services that we would be offering is something that uh could be offering is something that uh could be offering is something that uh could also be packaged and uh and productized

also be packaged and uh and productized also be packaged and uh and productized uh uh if we had a technical co-founder uh uh if we had a technical co-founder uh uh if we had a technical co-founder which we didn't at that point but we which we didn't at that point but we which we didn't at that point but we kind of ideated on what we could be kind of ideated on what we could be kind of ideated on what we could be building. And then uh yeah we were kind building. And then uh yeah we were kind building. And then uh yeah we were kind of looking for a technical co-founder as of looking for a technical co-founder as of looking for a technical co-founder as well. uh and as always kind of a random well. uh and as always kind of a random well. uh and as always kind of a random chance in life. We talked about the idea chance in life. We talked about the idea chance in life. We talked about the idea with one of our kind of good uh good with one of our kind of good uh good with one of our kind of good uh good friends and he said that hey I'm also friends and he said that hey I'm also friends and he said that hey I'm also looking for something new so I'm on looking for something new so I'm on looking for something new so I'm on board. So he's Yeah. So we are kind of board. So he's Yeah. So we are kind of board. So he's Yeah. So we are kind of the uh co-founders. I'm like the the uh co-founders. I'm like the the uh co-founders. I'm like the business person then uh we have like a business person then uh we have like a business person then uh we have like a product person and uh one technical product person and uh one technical product person and uh one technical person. We've known each other for about person. We've known each other for about person. We've known each other for about u 20 years now since university and we u 20 years now since university and we u 20 years now since university and we all have roughly 10 years of experience all have roughly 10 years of experience all have roughly 10 years of experience in the IT uh IT sector. So we figured in the IT uh IT sector. So we figured in the IT uh IT sector. So we figured that maybe it's going to ruin the that maybe it's going to ruin the that maybe it's going to ruin the relationship but uh let's try to build relationship but uh let's try to build relationship but uh let's try to build something uh something uh together. And something uh something uh together. And something uh something uh together. And where where the idea of process plot uh where where the idea of process plot uh where where the idea of process plot uh came from is that we're solving a came from is that we're solving a came from is that we're solving a personal issue which is that we've all personal issue which is that we've all personal issue which is that we've all worked in roles in quickly growing worked in roles in quickly growing worked in roles in quickly growing organizations where there's constant organizations where there's constant organizations where there's constant change going on and you as like the change going on and you as like the change going on and you as like the person who is either a product owner or person who is either a product owner or person who is either a product owner or building some kind of cross team building some kind of cross team building some kind of cross team processes or trying to implement the new processes or trying to implement the new processes or trying to implement the new policy. It's always so painful to be the policy. It's always so painful to be the policy. It's always so painful to be the one who is owning and managing it one who is owning and managing it one who is owning and managing it because it assumes that you are just because it assumes that you are just because it assumes that you are just constantly going to people, checking up

constantly going to people, checking up constantly going to people, checking up on them, uh making sure that they're on them, uh making sure that they're on them, uh making sure that they're doing what they need to be doing and doing what they need to be doing and doing what they need to be doing and it's like um the only way to do it is to it's like um the only way to do it is to it's like um the only way to do it is to basically either get on calls with basically either get on calls with basically either get on calls with people, uh write them emails, uh bombard people, uh write them emails, uh bombard people, uh write them emails, uh bombard them in Slack. and uh we wanted to kind them in Slack. and uh we wanted to kind them in Slack. and uh we wanted to kind of come up with a way that would make of come up with a way that would make of come up with a way that would make this change management and change this change management and change this change management and change communication a little bit less painful. communication a little bit less painful. communication a little bit less painful. So that's kind of where we ended up with So that's kind of where we ended up with So that's kind of where we ended up with the tool that we're building right now. the tool that we're building right now. the tool that we're building right now. Basically, it's a chatbot inside of Basically, it's a chatbot inside of Basically, it's a chatbot inside of Slafk and Microsoft Teams that allows Slafk and Microsoft Teams that allows Slafk and Microsoft Teams that allows whether it's HR people or ops people to whether it's HR people or ops people to whether it's HR people or ops people to set up uh communication campaigns set up uh communication campaigns set up uh communication campaigns essentially uh targeted to the internal essentially uh targeted to the internal essentially uh targeted to the internal teams in an organization to basically teams in an organization to basically teams in an organization to basically disseminate the change communication uh disseminate the change communication uh disseminate the change communication uh get feedback from how the change is get feedback from how the change is get feedback from how the change is processed uh progressing inside the processed uh progressing inside the processed uh progressing inside the organization and then also run uh like organization and then also run uh like organization and then also run uh like uh knowledge uh knowledge uh knowledge checks for any new skills that people checks for any new skills that people checks for any new skills that people need to acquire as part of the change need to acquire as part of the change need to acquire as part of the change that's being established. So for that's being established. So for that's being established. So for example, if it's an organization that example, if it's an organization that example, if it's an organization that has taken the decision that we need to has taken the decision that we need to has taken the decision that we need to yeah map out processes. So the yeah map out processes. So the yeah map out processes. So the communication would be about why we are communication would be about why we are communication would be about why we are doing process mapping, why processes are doing process mapping, why processes are doing process mapping, why processes are important, but also on the other layer, important, but also on the other layer, important, but also on the other layer, what actually is a process? Uh what does what actually is a process? Uh what does what actually is a process? Uh what does process ownership mean? How do you process ownership mean? How do you process ownership mean? How do you gather feedback? How do you uh optimize gather feedback? How do you uh optimize gather feedback? How do you uh optimize processes to kind of build this processes to kind of build this processes to kind of build this automated uh and structured way to keep

automated uh and structured way to keep automated uh and structured way to keep the change going for a long period in an the change going for a long period in an the change going for a long period in an organization versus just an all hands organization versus just an all hands organization versus just an all hands meeting or uh uh or like a workshop meeting or uh uh or like a workshop meeting or uh uh or like a workshop that's one off and then people forget that's one off and then people forget that's one off and then people forget about it. And I obviously need to about it. And I obviously need to about it. And I obviously need to practice my elevator pitch because this practice my elevator pitch because this practice my elevator pitch because this explanation was was super long. But explanation was was super long. But explanation was was super long. But again, I'm not a saleserson at least again, I'm not a saleserson at least again, I'm not a saleserson at least yet. So practice uh practice private yet. So practice uh practice private yet. So practice uh practice private practice. practice. practice. >> Well, this is interesting because I >> Well, this is interesting because I >> Well, this is interesting because I think a lot of founders, especially not think a lot of founders, especially not think a lot of founders, especially not a first-time founder, but I think a lot a first-time founder, but I think a lot a first-time founder, but I think a lot of first-time founders, they especially of first-time founders, they especially of first-time founders, they especially if they're solving a problem they've if they're solving a problem they've if they're solving a problem they've experienced, they're they they make the experienced, they're they they make the experienced, they're they they make the mistake of thinking they're building for mistake of thinking they're building for mistake of thinking they're building for themselves. And you know, when you think themselves. And you know, when you think themselves. And you know, when you think about your ideal buyer, is that how you about your ideal buyer, is that how you about your ideal buyer, is that how you guys started off? is you thought, hey, guys started off? is you thought, hey, guys started off? is you thought, hey, you know, we'll build this for ourselves you know, we'll build this for ourselves you know, we'll build this for ourselves and then go find people like us, or did and then go find people like us, or did and then go find people like us, or did you start off with a different approach you start off with a different approach you start off with a different approach to figuring out, you know, like who who to figuring out, you know, like who who to figuring out, you know, like who who the buyer of this of this solution is? the buyer of this of this solution is? the buyer of this of this solution is? Can you talk a little bit about that Can you talk a little bit about that Can you talk a little bit about that experience? Yeah, we we actually uh so experience? Yeah, we we actually uh so experience? Yeah, we we actually uh so we've been building the startup now for we've been building the startup now for we've been building the startup now for a year and we did a pivot about three or a year and we did a pivot about three or a year and we did a pivot about three or four uh months ago because we did that four uh months ago because we did that four uh months ago because we did that exact same mistake that it's written in exact same mistake that it's written in exact same mistake that it's written in every article and everybody gives it every article and everybody gives it every article and everybody gives it that has advice but we still managed to that has advice but we still managed to that has advice but we still managed to do it the wrong uh wrong way uh where we do it the wrong uh wrong way uh where we do it the wrong uh wrong way uh where we started out by building a process started out by building a process started out by building a process mapping and process uh management uh mapping and process uh management uh mapping and process uh management uh platform because that was uh the platform because that was uh the platform because that was uh the topic that we had most struggled with in

topic that we had most struggled with in topic that we had most struggled with in our own roles as product people and kind our own roles as product people and kind our own roles as product people and kind of me with the VP of growth growth of me with the VP of growth growth of me with the VP of growth growth enablement and what we did was we we enablement and what we did was we we enablement and what we did was we we built the solution out we uh and then we built the solution out we uh and then we built the solution out we uh and then we went and showed it to people and said went and showed it to people and said went and showed it to people and said that hey you're like us uh look what we that hey you're like us uh look what we that hey you're like us uh look what we built this should be like a super good built this should be like a super good built this should be like a super good thing to adopt in your organization thing to adopt in your organization thing to adopt in your organization >> y >> y >> y >> and I did manage to do like 20 demo >> and I did manage to do like 20 demo >> and I did manage to do like 20 demo calls mostly with friendly contacts and calls mostly with friendly contacts and calls mostly with friendly contacts and even I myself felt uh after those calls even I myself felt uh after those calls even I myself felt uh after those calls that people were not uh like I was not that people were not uh like I was not that people were not uh like I was not leaving the call being excited and they leaving the call being excited and they leaving the call being excited and they were not leaving the call being excited were not leaving the call being excited were not leaving the call being excited because of a number of issues. So I because of a number of issues. So I because of a number of issues. So I think we kind of overengineered a bit think we kind of overengineered a bit think we kind of overengineered a bit tried to build too many things at once tried to build too many things at once tried to build too many things at once and what we didn't consider was also and what we didn't consider was also and what we didn't consider was also this simplicity of adoption of we were this simplicity of adoption of we were this simplicity of adoption of we were basically asking organizations to basically asking organizations to basically asking organizations to fundamentally change how they approach fundamentally change how they approach fundamentally change how they approach uh a specific kind of topic in their uh a specific kind of topic in their uh a specific kind of topic in their organization and get like everybody organization and get like everybody organization and get like everybody accustomed to a new way of work.

accustomed to a new way of work. accustomed to a new way of work. >> Yeah. So we entirely scrapped the uh old >> Yeah. So we entirely scrapped the uh old >> Yeah. So we entirely scrapped the uh old solution solution solution uh and decided that okay whatever we're uh and decided that okay whatever we're uh and decided that okay whatever we're building next we're going to build it in building next we're going to build it in building next we're going to build it in the way where we get somebody interested the way where we get somebody interested the way where we get somebody interested first we get them committed first and first we get them committed first and first we get them committed first and only then we are going to put time into only then we are going to put time into only then we are going to put time into uh into building it out and to also be uh into building it out and to also be uh into building it out and to also be completely transparent with the uh completely transparent with the uh completely transparent with the uh customers that we're talking to you customers that we're talking to you customers that we're talking to you right now. We don't have anything built. right now. We don't have anything built. right now. We don't have anything built. uh we're going to be building it uh we're going to be building it uh we're going to be building it together with you and we do have the together with you and we do have the together with you and we do have the capability to deliver but uh just so you capability to deliver but uh just so you capability to deliver but uh just so you know like this is kind of talking with know like this is kind of talking with know like this is kind of talking with the open uh approach because I think the open uh approach because I think the open uh approach because I think especially if you like get started especially if you like get started especially if you like get started that's something that's super critical that's something that's super critical that's something that's super critical is to have people who are on the other is to have people who are on the other is to have people who are on the other side of the table where you tell them side of the table where you tell them side of the table where you tell them that what we have is total crap it's not that what we have is total crap it's not that what we have is total crap it's not functioning yet uh it's like there's functioning yet uh it's like there's functioning yet uh it's like there's errors in 20 different places and they errors in 20 different places and they errors in 20 different places and they tell you that, yeah, but we're okay with tell you that, yeah, but we're okay with tell you that, yeah, but we're okay with it because we see that there's value in it because we see that there's value in it because we see that there's value in this and we want to we want to really this and we want to we want to really this and we want to we want to really use it regardless of whether it's uh use it regardless of whether it's uh use it regardless of whether it's uh it's crappy or not because it does solve it's crappy or not because it does solve it's crappy or not because it does solve a actual uh actual problem for uh for a actual uh actual problem for uh for a actual uh actual problem for uh for them.

them. them. >> How many times have you heard something >> How many times have you heard something >> How many times have you heard something like this Matt in your career? because like this Matt in your career? because like this Matt in your career? because I've heard it many times and I think I've heard it many times and I think I've heard it many times and I think there's something here around there's there's something here around there's there's something here around there's like a you have to live in experience like a you have to live in experience like a you have to live in experience sometimes to learn the value of of doing sometimes to learn the value of of doing sometimes to learn the value of of doing something not the right way. something not the right way. something not the right way. >> I feel like if you've started a company >> I feel like if you've started a company >> I feel like if you've started a company you've probably had this story. I I you've probably had this story. I I you've probably had this story. I I think like especially the first time think like especially the first time think like especially the first time even though it's written a million times even though it's written a million times even though it's written a million times out there it's so hard not to build for out there it's so hard not to build for out there it's so hard not to build for yourself. You've you've gone through yourself. You've you've gone through yourself. You've you've gone through obviously a validation and sorry a pivot obviously a validation and sorry a pivot obviously a validation and sorry a pivot and a validation process. What was your and a validation process. What was your and a validation process. What was your original ideal buyer? I think I've got a original ideal buyer? I think I've got a original ideal buyer? I think I've got a sense of it from your your your initial sense of it from your your your initial sense of it from your your your initial overview process thought. What was the overview process thought. What was the overview process thought. What was the initial ideal buyer and then has that initial ideal buyer and then has that initial ideal buyer and then has that changed to where you are today with the changed to where you are today with the changed to where you are today with the pivot? pivot? pivot? >> It's uh changed drastically. So uh we >> It's uh changed drastically. So uh we >> It's uh changed drastically. So uh we did start out by kind of positioning the did start out by kind of positioning the did start out by kind of positioning the ICP as somebody who would be similar to ICP as somebody who would be similar to ICP as somebody who would be similar to us. So we were looking at uh like I us. So we were looking at uh like I us. So we were looking at uh like I personally was doing uh uh kind of personally was doing uh uh kind of personally was doing uh uh kind of enterprise customer onboarding in uh B2B enterprise customer onboarding in uh B2B enterprise customer onboarding in uh B2B organizations. So we're looking at uh organizations. So we're looking at uh organizations. So we're looking at uh customer success people, account customer success people, account customer success people, account managers uh or heads of account managers uh or heads of account managers uh or heads of account managers, heads of customer success, managers, heads of customer success, managers, heads of customer success, heads of business development in B2B heads of business development in B2B heads of business development in B2B organizations organizations organizations because we kind of took this focus on uh because we kind of took this focus on uh because we kind of took this focus on uh let's build a platform where cross team

let's build a platform where cross team let's build a platform where cross team processes can be mapped and one of the processes can be mapped and one of the processes can be mapped and one of the most problematic pro team processes in a most problematic pro team processes in a most problematic pro team processes in a B2B organization targeting enterprises B2B organization targeting enterprises B2B organization targeting enterprises is the enterprise customer onboarding uh is the enterprise customer onboarding uh is the enterprise customer onboarding uh process. So that didn't work out. And uh process. So that didn't work out. And uh process. So that didn't work out. And uh when we kind of took the pivot, we when we kind of took the pivot, we when we kind of took the pivot, we didn't have an immediate like new ICT in didn't have an immediate like new ICT in didn't have an immediate like new ICT in mind, we knew that it's not going to be mind, we knew that it's not going to be mind, we knew that it's not going to be the same person. But uh since we were the same person. But uh since we were the same person. But uh since we were building a tool that would be used building a tool that would be used building a tool that would be used universally across the organization, universally across the organization, universally across the organization, then we initially thought that maybe then we initially thought that maybe then we initially thought that maybe it's like CEOs, COS who would be the it's like CEOs, COS who would be the it's like CEOs, COS who would be the right target audience. But uh through right target audience. But uh through right target audience. But uh through those validation interviews and uh kind those validation interviews and uh kind those validation interviews and uh kind of discussing internally, we ended up of discussing internally, we ended up of discussing internally, we ended up landing on the uh uh HR team because we landing on the uh uh HR team because we landing on the uh uh HR team because we thought of it from the perspective of thought of it from the perspective of thought of it from the perspective of okay change communication like the okay change communication like the okay change communication like the changes are coming from the management. changes are coming from the management. changes are coming from the management. You eventually want them to reach all of You eventually want them to reach all of You eventually want them to reach all of the employees in the organization. The the employees in the organization. The the employees in the organization. The main bottleneck uh is generally the team main bottleneck uh is generally the team main bottleneck uh is generally the team leads and middle managers. But we can't leads and middle managers. But we can't leads and middle managers. But we can't go and sell directly to just a random uh go and sell directly to just a random uh go and sell directly to just a random uh team lead or middle manager because team lead or middle manager because team lead or middle manager because they're it wouldn't be logical for them they're it wouldn't be logical for them they're it wouldn't be logical for them to own this kind of tool. So who is the to own this kind of tool. So who is the to own this kind of tool. So who is the person who's actually supporting the uh person who's actually supporting the uh person who's actually supporting the uh middle manager team lead in their skill middle manager team lead in their skill middle manager team lead in their skill set and day-to-day work with people?

set and day-to-day work with people? set and day-to-day work with people? It's the uh it's the HR uh HR function. It's the uh it's the HR uh HR function. It's the uh it's the HR uh HR function. So like retrospectively it looks super So like retrospectively it looks super So like retrospectively it looks super super obvious but when we started out super obvious but when we started out super obvious but when we started out then our experience was from a then our experience was from a then our experience was from a completely different part of the completely different part of the completely different part of the organization. We've never had any kind organization. We've never had any kind organization. We've never had any kind of HR role or have only led like small of HR role or have only led like small of HR role or have only led like small small teams. So it didn't come like small teams. So it didn't come like small teams. So it didn't come like logically that okay logically that okay logically that okay >> we're building this therefore the ICP is >> we're building this therefore the ICP is >> we're building this therefore the ICP is like CA CR like CA CR like CA CR or CP CO in the organization. or CP CO in the organization. or CP CO in the organization. >> Sometimes when you have a product that >> Sometimes when you have a product that >> Sometimes when you have a product that is farreaching in an organization um is farreaching in an organization um is farreaching in an organization um you're selling it to the sea level or you're selling it to the sea level or you're selling it to the sea level or the executive knowing that somebody else the executive knowing that somebody else the executive knowing that somebody else is actually going to be using it or is actually going to be using it or is actually going to be using it or doing the implementation. Is that doing the implementation. Is that doing the implementation. Is that similar for you? Because I I think a lot similar for you? Because I I think a lot similar for you? Because I I think a lot of times like I worry that there are of times like I worry that there are of times like I worry that there are certain departments at least in the US I certain departments at least in the US I certain departments at least in the US I often see HR departments not get enough often see HR departments not get enough often see HR departments not get enough credit. They don't get enough power credit. They don't get enough power credit. They don't get enough power decision-m authority for things to solve decision-m authority for things to solve decision-m authority for things to solve problems like this but they're sort of problems like this but they're sort of problems like this but they're sort of on the hook to figure it out. Did you on the hook to figure it out. Did you on the hook to figure it out. Did you guys have that where you have like guys have that where you have like guys have that where you have like there's like a strategic buyer and then there's like a strategic buyer and then there's like a strategic buyer and then there's like a direct buyer or is it there's like a direct buyer or is it there's like a direct buyer or is it pretty straightforward that it's HR pretty straightforward that it's HR pretty straightforward that it's HR people and they're empowered to solve people and they're empowered to solve people and they're empowered to solve this problem with with technology?

this problem with with technology? this problem with with technology? I think for us it was in that sense kind I think for us it was in that sense kind I think for us it was in that sense kind of straightforward of straightforward of straightforward because one of the it's kind of a because one of the it's kind of a because one of the it's kind of a chicken and a bag situation that right chicken and a bag situation that right chicken and a bag situation that right now if we're talking about change now if we're talking about change now if we're talking about change management change communication the HR management change communication the HR management change communication the HR team doesn't have good data to like back team doesn't have good data to like back team doesn't have good data to like back like good realtime data to back up like good realtime data to back up like good realtime data to back up asking for resources or suggesting uh asking for resources or suggesting uh asking for resources or suggesting uh like some kind of change in direction. like some kind of change in direction. like some kind of change in direction. uh generally it's like an annual or uh generally it's like an annual or uh generally it's like an annual or bianual engagement survey or feedback bianual engagement survey or feedback bianual engagement survey or feedback survey and then the results show that survey and then the results show that survey and then the results show that you know there's lack of confidence in you know there's lack of confidence in you know there's lack of confidence in management crossine communication is uh management crossine communication is uh management crossine communication is uh is bad. It's not clear what the vision is bad. It's not clear what the vision is bad. It's not clear what the vision is but uh that comes out once or twice is but uh that comes out once or twice is but uh that comes out once or twice per year and then you do some per year and then you do some per year and then you do some initiatives and then in six months you initiatives and then in six months you initiatives and then in six months you either get the better result or you either get the better result or you either get the better result or you don't get the better better result. So don't get the better better result. So don't get the better better result. So we're looking at it from the perspective we're looking at it from the perspective we're looking at it from the perspective of we help to actually get the daily of we help to actually get the daily of we help to actually get the daily work that they need to do done in a work that they need to do done in a work that they need to do done in a better way but also uh through that they better way but also uh through that they better way but also uh through that they get data which they can then uh take get data which they can then uh take get data which they can then uh take back to the kind of the management level back to the kind of the management level back to the kind of the management level the sea level and show that the numbers the sea level and show that the numbers the sea level and show that the numbers here [clears throat] show that we have here [clears throat] show that we have here [clears throat] show that we have problems here there in the in the third problems here there in the in the third problems here there in the in the third uh third place. So I think at the end of uh third place. So I think at the end of uh third place. So I think at the end of the day if it's like sea level then you the day if it's like sea level then you the day if it's like sea level then you need to have some kind of hard data and need to have some kind of hard data and need to have some kind of hard data and it needs to be like converted into a it needs to be like converted into a it needs to be like converted into a monetary value to actually show that monetary value to actually show that monetary value to actually show that it's something that needs to be dealt

it's something that needs to be dealt it's something that needs to be dealt with because change management is kind with because change management is kind with because change management is kind of a soft topic. Yeah. Well, yeah, of a soft topic. Yeah. Well, yeah, of a soft topic. Yeah. Well, yeah, people are unhappy. So, what we don't people are unhappy. So, what we don't people are unhappy. So, what we don't have a high turnover. Who cares if have a high turnover. Who cares if have a high turnover. Who cares if they're unhappy? But it cascades down to they're unhappy? But it cascades down to they're unhappy? But it cascades down to how engaged people are, which in turn how engaged people are, which in turn how engaged people are, which in turn cascades down into how productive they cascades down into how productive they cascades down into how productive they are. Uh so it eventually does start are. Uh so it eventually does start are. Uh so it eventually does start showing up also in the uh uh in the showing up also in the uh uh in the showing up also in the uh uh in the performance of the company. But we're performance of the company. But we're performance of the company. But we're kind of helping the HR team put together kind of helping the HR team put together kind of helping the HR team put together the business case for that this is the business case for that this is the business case for that this is something that is actually valuable to something that is actually valuable to something that is actually valuable to uh to deal with because in in a lot of uh to deal with because in in a lot of uh to deal with because in in a lot of organizations as well it's against the organizations as well it's against the organizations as well it's against the sea level view is that you know it's sea level view is that you know it's sea level view is that you know it's it's not something that's uh maybe it's not something that's uh maybe it's not something that's uh maybe important to uh to deal with uh it's not important to uh to deal with uh it's not important to uh to deal with uh it's not critical and uh we anyway communicate so critical and uh we anyway communicate so critical and uh we anyway communicate so much that why would we like need some much that why would we like need some much that why would we like need some kind of additional tool to communicate kind of additional tool to communicate kind of additional tool to communicate even more but I think even more but I think even more but I think from our kind of validation and from our kind of validation and from our kind of validation and discovery interviews as well. What came discovery interviews as well. What came discovery interviews as well. What came out we talked with 13 CEOs about like out we talked with 13 CEOs about like out we talked with 13 CEOs about like big change management projects in in big change management projects in in big change management projects in in their organization and I think 10 out of their organization and I think 10 out of their organization and I think 10 out of 13 highlighted that communication is the 13 highlighted that communication is the 13 highlighted that communication is the primary issue and it's not that things primary issue and it's not that things primary issue and it's not that things are overcommunicated. It's almost always are overcommunicated. It's almost always are overcommunicated. It's almost always that there's too uh too little uh little that there's too uh too little uh little that there's too uh too little uh little communication. So that's when kind of uh communication. So that's when kind of uh communication. So that's when kind of uh things start uh falling apart.

things start uh falling apart. things start uh falling apart. >> It's interesting. I think one of the one >> It's interesting. I think one of the one >> It's interesting. I think one of the one of the things I learned early in my of the things I learned early in my of the things I learned early in my career, I was managing a team and one of career, I was managing a team and one of career, I was managing a team and one of the things that somebody told me, I was the things that somebody told me, I was the things that somebody told me, I was like, "Yeah, you know, how how do they like, "Yeah, you know, how how do they like, "Yeah, you know, how how do they not understand?" Like I I I communicated not understand?" Like I I I communicated not understand?" Like I I I communicated it, right? I we we had a meeting, we it, right? I we we had a meeting, we it, right? I we we had a meeting, we talked about it, everybody should be on talked about it, everybody should be on talked about it, everybody should be on the same page. And somebody told me, the same page. And somebody told me, the same page. And somebody told me, they gave me the advice that like until they gave me the advice that like until they gave me the advice that like until your team is like finishing your your team is like finishing your your team is like finishing your sentence and rolling their eyes. They're sentence and rolling their eyes. They're sentence and rolling their eyes. They're just like, "Oh, he's talking about this just like, "Oh, he's talking about this just like, "Oh, he's talking about this again." You know, like you probably again." You know, like you probably again." You know, like you probably haven't communicated it enough. And like haven't communicated it enough. And like haven't communicated it enough. And like that level of an extreme, that level of an extreme, that level of an extreme, like for me, like that seems insane. like for me, like that seems insane. like for me, like that seems insane. Like if if I'm getting to the point Like if if I'm getting to the point Like if if I'm getting to the point where I'm like quoting you back to you where I'm like quoting you back to you where I'm like quoting you back to you and rolling my eyes, we've gone way too and rolling my eyes, we've gone way too and rolling my eyes, we've gone way too far. But when you're talking about like far. But when you're talking about like far. But when you're talking about like disseminating enough inter information disseminating enough inter information disseminating enough inter information so that your entire organization can so that your entire organization can so that your entire organization can like absorb it, react to it, own it, it like absorb it, react to it, own it, it like absorb it, react to it, own it, it it does you need like communication is it does you need like communication is it does you need like communication is probably the biggest issue with this and probably the biggest issue with this and probably the biggest issue with this and it I think it I think it I think usually the the sea levels are they're usually the the sea levels are they're usually the the sea levels are they're so far out in advance of where the team so far out in advance of where the team so far out in advance of where the team is and they've talked about it at is and they've talked about it at is and they've talked about it at nauseium amongst themselves that by the nauseium amongst themselves that by the nauseium amongst themselves that by the time they tell the team they're like time they tell the team they're like time they tell the team they're like well we told the team like that's it.

well we told the team like that's it. well we told the team like that's it. that that was like all we had to do, that that was like all we had to do, that that was like all we had to do, right? We we had 150 meetings between us right? We we had 150 meetings between us right? We we had 150 meetings between us and then we had one with the team and and then we had one with the team and and then we had one with the team and that should be enough, right? And it that should be enough, right? And it that should be enough, right? And it feels right because you've talked about feels right because you've talked about feels right because you've talked about it 150 times, but they haven't they it 150 times, but they haven't they it 150 times, but they haven't they haven't heard it 150 times. So, it's haven't heard it 150 times. So, it's haven't heard it 150 times. So, it's obviously not 150, but um yeah, I think obviously not 150, but um yeah, I think obviously not 150, but um yeah, I think there's there's a like an official term there's there's a like an official term there's there's a like an official term for it or like a logical fallacy, which for it or like a logical fallacy, which for it or like a logical fallacy, which is the knowledge gap fallacy where what is the knowledge gap fallacy where what is the knowledge gap fallacy where what you know and what you think other people you know and what you think other people you know and what you think other people know is more similar than it actually know is more similar than it actually know is more similar than it actually is. And that's where the disconnect uh is. And that's where the disconnect uh is. And that's where the disconnect uh kind of comes from. Um kind of comes from. Um kind of comes from. Um >> James does this with me all the time. He >> James does this with me all the time. He >> James does this with me all the time. He thinks I know all the British sayings thinks I know all the British sayings thinks I know all the British sayings and he just assumes I do and so he just and he just assumes I do and so he just and he just assumes I do and so he just starts ripping off British sayings left starts ripping off British sayings left starts ripping off British sayings left and right and I have no idea what he's and right and I have no idea what he's and right and I have no idea what he's saying. It's uh it's exactly an example saying. It's uh it's exactly an example saying. It's uh it's exactly an example of this. of this. of this. >> One day the the penny will drop on and >> One day the the penny will drop on and >> One day the the penny will drop on and jigory pokery and all these other jigory pokery and all these other jigory pokery and all these other British things. British things. British things. >> Today's episode is brought to you by >> Today's episode is brought to you by >> Today's episode is brought to you by hunter.io, IO the B2B lead generation hunter.io, IO the B2B lead generation hunter.io, IO the B2B lead generation platform made for every professional. platform made for every professional. platform made for every professional. Whether it's prospecting, [music] Whether it's prospecting, [music] Whether it's prospecting, [music] fundraising, recruiting, link building, fundraising, recruiting, link building, fundraising, recruiting, link building, or just trying to connect with the or just trying to connect with the or just trying to connect with the [music] right people, Hunter makes it [music] right people, Hunter makes it [music] right people, Hunter makes it easy.

easy. easy. >> Matias, I think this is this is great >> Matias, I think this is this is great >> Matias, I think this is this is great because it it gets us closer to the to because it it gets us closer to the to because it it gets us closer to the to the real story because as you've kind of the real story because as you've kind of the real story because as you've kind of detailed, these sort of journeys are detailed, these sort of journeys are detailed, these sort of journeys are never really straightforward. There's never really straightforward. There's never really straightforward. There's plenty of good, there's plenty of bad, plenty of good, there's plenty of bad, plenty of good, there's plenty of bad, and there's lots of lessons. In our next and there's lots of lessons. In our next and there's lots of lessons. In our next segment called keeping it 100, it's segment called keeping it 100, it's segment called keeping it 100, it's really about diving into what it's taken really about diving into what it's taken really about diving into what it's taken you to go from zero to your cl your you to go from zero to your cl your you to go from zero to your cl your current customer count. How are you current customer count. How are you current customer count. How are you going about getting your first going about getting your first going about getting your first customers? customers? customers? >> I think it was about two years ago where >> I think it was about two years ago where >> I think it was about two years ago where I I wasn't yet building a startup but in I I wasn't yet building a startup but in I I wasn't yet building a startup but in general looking more into educating general looking more into educating general looking more into educating myself about sales and business myself about sales and business myself about sales and business development where I read a book called development where I read a book called development where I read a book called uh from impossible to inevitable. The uh from impossible to inevitable. The uh from impossible to inevitable. The main thing that stuck out to me from main thing that stuck out to me from main thing that stuck out to me from that book was that as fast as possible, that book was that as fast as possible, that book was that as fast as possible, go from 80s and referrals to doing cold go from 80s and referrals to doing cold go from 80s and referrals to doing cold uh cold outreach. And the reasoning for uh cold outreach. And the reasoning for uh cold outreach. And the reasoning for that was that if you're in an early that was that if you're in an early that was that if you're in an early stage uh company, uh people you know are stage uh company, uh people you know are stage uh company, uh people you know are generally nice to you. They give you the generally nice to you. They give you the generally nice to you. They give you the attention. They give you your time. Uh attention. They give you your time. Uh attention. They give you your time. Uh they're willing to listen to what you they're willing to listen to what you they're willing to listen to what you have to say. But it's misleading because have to say. But it's misleading because have to say. But it's misleading because if you want to actually scale something if you want to actually scale something if you want to actually scale something out, you need to get a person who has out, you need to get a person who has out, you need to get a person who has zero interest in talking to you who zero interest in talking to you who zero interest in talking to you who knows absolutely nothing about your knows absolutely nothing about your knows absolutely nothing about your amazing uh personal background or or amazing uh personal background or or amazing uh personal background or or your amazing product and they actually your amazing product and they actually your amazing product and they actually take that 10 seconds to reply to your

take that 10 seconds to reply to your take that 10 seconds to reply to your email or that 15 20 minutes to say that, email or that 15 20 minutes to say that, email or that 15 20 minutes to say that, okay, this sound interesting. Uh let's okay, this sound interesting. Uh let's okay, this sound interesting. Uh let's uh let's get on a on a call. So we are uh let's get on a on a call. So we are uh let's get on a on a call. So we are little bit also kind of tapping into our little bit also kind of tapping into our little bit also kind of tapping into our own personal network uh network uh to to own personal network uh network uh to to own personal network uh network uh to to get some warm calls uh warm calls and get some warm calls uh warm calls and get some warm calls uh warm calls and referrals as as well. But vast majority referrals as as well. But vast majority referrals as as well. But vast majority of my time goes into prospecting uh of my time goes into prospecting uh of my time goes into prospecting uh organizations that I hear about the organizations that I hear about the organizations that I hear about the first time and reaching out to people first time and reaching out to people first time and reaching out to people who I have uh no uh no previous contact who I have uh no uh no previous contact who I have uh no uh no previous contact uh contact with because I think uh that uh contact with because I think uh that uh contact with because I think uh that also helps to sharpen the act so to also helps to sharpen the act so to also helps to sharpen the act so to speak because if I really like written speak because if I really like written speak because if I really like written five times 10 times to a person and five times 10 times to a person and five times 10 times to a person and they're not responding then I I need to they're not responding then I I need to they're not responding then I I need to change something whereas if I keep change something whereas if I keep change something whereas if I keep feeling stuck in this, you know, feeling stuck in this, you know, feeling stuck in this, you know, friends, previous co-workers, uh, and friends, previous co-workers, uh, and friends, previous co-workers, uh, and that loop, then I may be getting kind of that loop, then I may be getting kind of that loop, then I may be getting kind of false signals on on what's actually false signals on on what's actually false signals on on what's actually working because it's not working due to working because it's not working due to working because it's not working due to the product or the idea. It's working the product or the idea. It's working the product or the idea. It's working because uh these are people that trust because uh these are people that trust because uh these are people that trust me and uh uh and they're willing to to me and uh uh and they're willing to to me and uh uh and they're willing to to give me uh give me their time.

give me uh give me their time. give me uh give me their time. >> I'm a huge fan of cold outreach as a way >> I'm a huge fan of cold outreach as a way >> I'm a huge fan of cold outreach as a way of validating a product, right? If you of validating a product, right? If you of validating a product, right? If you can send a 100 emails in a week and can send a 100 emails in a week and can send a 100 emails in a week and slowly refine your message to a point slowly refine your message to a point slowly refine your message to a point where the response rate starts to where the response rate starts to where the response rate starts to improve, you start to actually get improve, you start to actually get improve, you start to actually get people leaning in. Like um there's people leaning in. Like um there's people leaning in. Like um there's really I think there's no better litmus really I think there's no better litmus really I think there's no better litmus test. Um it's uh yeah, it's a great way test. Um it's uh yeah, it's a great way test. Um it's uh yeah, it's a great way to get that feedback. You can tell like to get that feedback. You can tell like to get that feedback. You can tell like if you're sending an even a 100 emails if you're sending an even a 100 emails if you're sending an even a 100 emails and no one responds, you're telling me and no one responds, you're telling me and no one responds, you're telling me one in a 100red people didn't have the one in a 100red people didn't have the one in a 100red people didn't have the pain enough to want to like double click pain enough to want to like double click pain enough to want to like double click and find out more. It's uh yeah, I think and find out more. It's uh yeah, I think and find out more. It's uh yeah, I think it's a it's an overlooked tool for it's a it's an overlooked tool for it's a it's an overlooked tool for validating ideas. Like I don't know that validating ideas. Like I don't know that validating ideas. Like I don't know that there are very many product managers there are very many product managers there are very many product managers running around doing cold outreach, but running around doing cold outreach, but running around doing cold outreach, but honestly that's probably the tool they honestly that's probably the tool they honestly that's probably the tool they should be reaching for first. um after should be reaching for first. um after should be reaching for first. um after customer interviews. I think that would customer interviews. I think that would customer interviews. I think that would be like the number two thing on the be like the number two thing on the be like the number two thing on the playbook. Um playbook. Um playbook. Um >> yeah, for me this reminds that there's I >> yeah, for me this reminds that there's I >> yeah, for me this reminds that there's I think from Jim Collins this book good to think from Jim Collins this book good to think from Jim Collins this book good to break which says that if companies want break which says that if companies want break which says that if companies want to innovate then the main issue is that to innovate then the main issue is that to innovate then the main issue is that they get stuck in their existing they get stuck in their existing they get stuck in their existing customers, existing processes, existing customers, existing processes, existing customers, existing processes, existing culture. And uh if you only rely on this culture. And uh if you only rely on this culture. And uh if you only rely on this kind of existing network of people, kind of existing network of people, kind of existing network of people, you're going to be getting the same you're going to be getting the same you're going to be getting the same feedback uh like the people are looking feedback uh like the people are looking feedback uh like the people are looking at you from the wrong uh wrong angle. So at you from the wrong uh wrong angle. So at you from the wrong uh wrong angle. So if you're like, I don't know, Microsoft if you're like, I don't know, Microsoft if you're like, I don't know, Microsoft or Amazon going out to talk to or Amazon going out to talk to or Amazon going out to talk to the people that you've always worked

the people that you've always worked the people that you've always worked with, they're going to give you the with, they're going to give you the with, they're going to give you the feedback that they perceive they need to feedback that they perceive they need to feedback that they perceive they need to give you as as that specific uh that give you as as that specific uh that give you as as that specific uh that specific organization. So specific organization. So specific organization. So >> I don't think people fully understand >> I don't think people fully understand >> I don't think people fully understand how little how little how little anybody wants to tell them their baby is anybody wants to tell them their baby is anybody wants to tell them their baby is ugly. ugly. ugly. And when you're like I think there's And when you're like I think there's And when you're like I think there's just enough general respect for just enough general respect for just enough general respect for entrepreneurs who are starting something entrepreneurs who are starting something entrepreneurs who are starting something that when that that when one of them is that when that that when one of them is that when that that when one of them is sitting across from you in a demo on sitting across from you in a demo on sitting across from you in a demo on Zoom or whatever and they're sh they're Zoom or whatever and they're sh they're Zoom or whatever and they're sh they're pitching their thing. pitching their thing. pitching their thing. It's so easy for an entrepreneur to be It's so easy for an entrepreneur to be It's so easy for an entrepreneur to be like oh my god the feedback was great. like oh my god the feedback was great. like oh my god the feedback was great. They seemed they were nodding. They were They seemed they were nodding. They were They seemed they were nodding. They were like really engaged with it. like really engaged with it. like really engaged with it. And then I don't know why they didn't And then I don't know why they didn't And then I don't know why they didn't have any interest. I don't know why they have any interest. I don't know why they have any interest. I don't know why they didn't buy. Everything they said was didn't buy. Everything they said was didn't buy. Everything they said was positive. It's like, look, nobody wants positive. It's like, look, nobody wants positive. It's like, look, nobody wants to look you in the face and be like, to look you in the face and be like, to look you in the face and be like, "Sorry, man. That is an ugly baby. That "Sorry, man. That is an ugly baby. That "Sorry, man. That is an ugly baby. That is, you should stop taking pictures of is, you should stop taking pictures of is, you should stop taking pictures of that baby. It is going to scare people."

that baby. It is going to scare people." that baby. It is going to scare people." Nobody wants to tell you that. Like, Nobody wants to tell you that. Like, Nobody wants to tell you that. Like, have you figured out tricks to trying to have you figured out tricks to trying to have you figured out tricks to trying to validate the feedback that you're validate the feedback that you're validate the feedback that you're getting to make sure it's not just getting to make sure it's not just getting to make sure it's not just people telling you what you want to people telling you what you want to people telling you what you want to hear? hear? hear? Uh I think this is where the main focus Uh I think this is where the main focus Uh I think this is where the main focus on cold outreach is actually doing that on cold outreach is actually doing that on cold outreach is actually doing that validation on uh uh on my my part validation on uh uh on my my part validation on uh uh on my my part because if I like if you put yourself or because if I like if you put yourself or because if I like if you put yourself or if I put myself into those shoes then if if I put myself into those shoes then if if I put myself into those shoes then if it's a completely unknown person who is it's a completely unknown person who is it's a completely unknown person who is writing to me and they're willing to and writing to me and they're willing to and writing to me and they're willing to and I'm willing to have a call with them I'm willing to have a call with them I'm willing to have a call with them then I may be a nice person but I'm not then I may be a nice person but I'm not then I may be a nice person but I'm not spending 30 minutes of my day just to be spending 30 minutes of my day just to be spending 30 minutes of my day just to be nice to some complete uh stranger who's nice to some complete uh stranger who's nice to some complete uh stranger who's who's trying to trying to sell who's trying to trying to sell who's trying to trying to sell something. So in that sense focusing on something. So in that sense focusing on something. So in that sense focusing on cold outreach is is the valid validation cold outreach is is the valid validation cold outreach is is the valid validation part. The the second part of course is a part. The the second part of course is a part. The the second part of course is a book I recently read is this the the mom book I recently read is this the the mom book I recently read is this the the mom test. Uh I don't know if you if you know test. Uh I don't know if you if you know test. Uh I don't know if you if you know about it, but it's also like a customer about it, but it's also like a customer about it, but it's also like a customer discovery and uh and valid validation discovery and uh and valid validation discovery and uh and valid validation book which basically tells you that uh book which basically tells you that uh book which basically tells you that uh especially if you're talking to people especially if you're talking to people especially if you're talking to people who you already know, then they're going who you already know, then they're going who you already know, then they're going to be like your mom and they're going to to be like your mom and they're going to to be like your mom and they're going to give you, you know, you're a nice boy give you, you know, you're a nice boy give you, you know, you're a nice boy and I I love you. That kind of uh debt.

and I I love you. That kind of uh debt. and I I love you. That kind of uh debt. So the way you ask the questions and it So the way you ask the questions and it So the way you ask the questions and it can describe in the book as well is to can describe in the book as well is to can describe in the book as well is to ask the questions in a way where you're ask the questions in a way where you're ask the questions in a way where you're uh uh not bleeding and if somebody uh uh not bleeding and if somebody uh uh not bleeding and if somebody especially if somebody says something especially if somebody says something especially if somebody says something positive or good you uh like try to be positive or good you uh like try to be positive or good you uh like try to be as critical as possible towards that. So as critical as possible towards that. So as critical as possible towards that. So if they say something nice then you say if they say something nice then you say if they say something nice then you say that but why do you think that's uh that but why do you think that's uh that but why do you think that's uh that's nice? So uh so kind of to push that's nice? So uh so kind of to push that's nice? So uh so kind of to push more on uh yeah the positive uh positive more on uh yeah the positive uh positive more on uh yeah the positive uh positive feedback that you get to try it and kind feedback that you get to try it and kind feedback that you get to try it and kind of dismantle it and to that kind of uh of dismantle it and to that kind of uh of dismantle it and to that kind of uh gets you through to the are they just gets you through to the are they just gets you through to the are they just saying it to be nice or are they saying it to be nice or are they saying it to be nice or are they actually saying it to uh because they actually saying it to uh because they actually saying it to uh because they really like believe what uh what your uh really like believe what uh what your uh really like believe what uh what your uh what your idea is. I think a simple what your idea is. I think a simple what your idea is. I think a simple example I can give is that you know if example I can give is that you know if example I can give is that you know if I'm having a call and somebody says that I'm having a call and somebody says that I'm having a call and somebody says that you know what you're building is really you know what you're building is really you know what you're building is really interesting it's maybe not right for us interesting it's maybe not right for us interesting it's maybe not right for us right now but maybe if you come back in right now but maybe if you come back in right now but maybe if you come back in uh 3 months then we'd be happy to take uh 3 months then we'd be happy to take uh 3 months then we'd be happy to take take another uh another look. So you take another uh another look. So you take another uh another look. So you like the fallacy is to take away that uh like the fallacy is to take away that uh like the fallacy is to take away that uh oh they actually really liked it and if oh they actually really liked it and if oh they actually really liked it and if you just you know add these two features you just you know add these two features you just you know add these two features and go back in three months then they're and go back in three months then they're and go back in three months then they're absolutely going to buy. But the flip absolutely going to buy. But the flip absolutely going to buy. But the flip that uh should happen in the brain is that uh should happen in the brain is that uh should happen in the brain is that okay but why are you not buying it that okay but why are you not buying it that okay but why are you not buying it uh right now and realistically like tell uh right now and realistically like tell uh right now and realistically like tell me honestly you have nothing to lose uh me honestly you have nothing to lose uh me honestly you have nothing to lose uh if I come back in 2 months or 3 months

if I come back in 2 months or 3 months if I come back in 2 months or 3 months with these two features would you with these two features would you with these two features would you actually consider paying I don't know actually consider paying I don't know actually consider paying I don't know $1,000 per per month month for it and if $1,000 per per month month for it and if $1,000 per per month month for it and if not then then why so to not kind of get not then then why so to not kind of get not then then why so to not kind of get tricked into this false sense of tricked into this false sense of tricked into this false sense of well-being because people don't want to well-being because people don't want to well-being because people don't want to want to hurt your uh your feelings. want to hurt your uh your feelings. want to hurt your uh your feelings. >> It's interesting. I'll push back on that >> It's interesting. I'll push back on that >> It's interesting. I'll push back on that a little bit because I think you can't a little bit because I think you can't a little bit because I think you can't This is I' I've said this before to This is I' I've said this before to This is I' I've said this before to people. I don't I don't know if anybody people. I don't I don't know if anybody people. I don't I don't know if anybody agrees with me on this, so I'll just agrees with me on this, so I'll just agrees with me on this, so I'll just keep saying it um until somebody tells keep saying it um until somebody tells keep saying it um until somebody tells me I'm wrong or agrees with me. But uh I me I'm wrong or agrees with me. But uh I me I'm wrong or agrees with me. But uh I don't think it's I think it's harder don't think it's I think it's harder don't think it's I think it's harder than people realize to get the timing than people realize to get the timing than people realize to get the timing right. You're going to cold email a 100 right. You're going to cold email a 100 right. You're going to cold email a 100 people and it might be relevant to 20% people and it might be relevant to 20% people and it might be relevant to 20% of them, but it might not be the right of them, but it might not be the right of them, but it might not be the right timing. And I think it's it's hard to timing. And I think it's it's hard to timing. And I think it's it's hard to know that you've nailed the timing when know that you've nailed the timing when know that you've nailed the timing when you're having the conversation. Like you're having the conversation. Like you're having the conversation. Like they raised their hand. They were like, they raised their hand. They were like, they raised their hand. They were like, "This is interesting. It's a problem "This is interesting. It's a problem "This is interesting. It's a problem that at least resonated enough for me to that at least resonated enough for me to that at least resonated enough for me to reply." reply." reply." But there's kind of two components to But there's kind of two components to But there's kind of two components to that. One is feedback and validation. that. One is feedback and validation. that. One is feedback and validation. Are you headed in the right direction? Are you headed in the right direction? Are you headed in the right direction? And the and and their response is at And the and and their response is at And the and and their response is at least the beginning of that least the beginning of that least the beginning of that conversation. But the timing piece, like conversation. But the timing piece, like conversation. But the timing piece, like only some of that 20% are trying to only some of that 20% are trying to only some of that 20% are trying to solve for that problem right now. And so solve for that problem right now. And so solve for that problem right now. And so the the right like there's got to be a the the right like there's got to be a the the right like there's got to be a good way to manage that conversation so good way to manage that conversation so good way to manage that conversation so that you get the best feedback that you that you get the best feedback that you that you get the best feedback that you can but also know how legitimate is that can but also know how legitimate is that can but also know how legitimate is that as a sales opportunity. But like you as a sales opportunity. But like you as a sales opportunity. But like you know if it was ever interesting enough know if it was ever interesting enough know if it was ever interesting enough for them to reply it's probably for them to reply it's probably for them to reply it's probably somewhere on their horizon. And so I

somewhere on their horizon. And so I somewhere on their horizon. And so I don't know companies are really bad at don't know companies are really bad at don't know companies are really bad at telling you when to come back right it's telling you when to come back right it's telling you when to come back right it's always next quarter but sometimes that's always next quarter but sometimes that's always next quarter but sometimes that's four quarters. Um, sometimes you just four quarters. Um, sometimes you just four quarters. Um, sometimes you just need four cracks at it before they're need four cracks at it before they're need four cracks at it before they're finally like, "Yeah, okay, now we're finally like, "Yeah, okay, now we're finally like, "Yeah, okay, now we're actually solving that problem." Like I actually solving that problem." Like I actually solving that problem." Like I dealt with that last year. It was like dealt with that last year. It was like dealt with that last year. It was like something I was ready to kick off in Q4 something I was ready to kick off in Q4 something I was ready to kick off in Q4 and then realistically I don't think it and then realistically I don't think it and then realistically I don't think it even happened until Q2 this year. Not even happened until Q2 this year. Not even happened until Q2 this year. Not because it wasn't important, not because because it wasn't important, not because because it wasn't important, not because it wasn't serious, but just like the it wasn't serious, but just like the it wasn't serious, but just like the timing wasn't even right from our timing wasn't even right from our timing wasn't even right from our perspective. So, and that had nothing to perspective. So, and that had nothing to perspective. So, and that had nothing to do with external. Do you do anything do with external. Do you do anything do with external. Do you do anything to try to separate making sure you're to try to separate making sure you're to try to separate making sure you're getting good value out of the getting good value out of the getting good value out of the conversation even if the timing isn't conversation even if the timing isn't conversation even if the timing isn't right? right? right? >> Yeah, I think for me it's the tricky bit >> Yeah, I think for me it's the tricky bit >> Yeah, I think for me it's the tricky bit is to validate that part of what they're is to validate that part of what they're is to validate that part of what they're saying that if you build two more saying that if you build two more saying that if you build two more features they're then we're going to buy features they're then we're going to buy features they're then we're going to buy it. uh and to actually understand if it. uh and to actually understand if it. uh and to actually understand if they really are not on the market right they really are not on the market right they really are not on the market right now, but they may be in the future or now, but they may be in the future or now, but they may be in the future or they're just being nice to not like they're just being nice to not like they're just being nice to not like close off the discussion because they close off the discussion because they close off the discussion because they don't want to be the one who is don't want to be the one who is don't want to be the one who is impolite. So I think the right way to do impolite. So I think the right way to do impolite. So I think the right way to do is do it is that you you need to is do it is that you you need to is do it is that you you need to consider that conversation still like a consider that conversation still like a consider that conversation still like a little bit of a lost deal. So let's say little bit of a lost deal. So let's say little bit of a lost deal. So let's say that if you have like a bucket of I that if you have like a bucket of I that if you have like a bucket of I don't know 100 200 whatever amount of don't know 100 200 whatever amount of don't know 100 200 whatever amount of deals you need to move it into a place deals you need to move it into a place deals you need to move it into a place where they said no we can go back in where they said no we can go back in where they said no we can go back in like we we need to go back in 3 months like we we need to go back in 3 months like we we need to go back in 3 months and 6 months and 9 months and 12 months and 6 months and 9 months and 12 months and 6 months and 9 months and 12 months and try them again for for the purposes and try them again for for the purposes and try them again for for the purposes of how well we are performing right now.

of how well we are performing right now. of how well we are performing right now. I would rather move them into the kind I would rather move them into the kind I would rather move them into the kind of the bucket of uh that deal is is is of the bucket of uh that deal is is is of the bucket of uh that deal is is is lost for now because otherwise you end lost for now because otherwise you end lost for now because otherwise you end up in a situation where you have this up in a situation where you have this up in a situation where you have this pipeline of uh kind of dreams and hopes pipeline of uh kind of dreams and hopes pipeline of uh kind of dreams and hopes uh and everybody is going to be a uh and everybody is going to be a uh and everybody is going to be a customer and they're going to be a customer and they're going to be a customer and they're going to be a customer in three six or or 9 months but customer in three six or or 9 months but customer in three six or or 9 months but you're not closing uh anything uh you're not closing uh anything uh you're not closing uh anything uh anything uh right now but I think the anything uh right now but I think the anything uh right now but I think the takeaway so I used to uh do a lot of takeaway so I used to uh do a lot of takeaway so I used to uh do a lot of content marketing in in my old uh old content marketing in in my old uh old content marketing in in my old uh old organization and how I approached coming organization and how I approached coming organization and how I approached coming up with content ideas was that uh up with content ideas was that uh up with content ideas was that uh account managers talk to customers every account managers talk to customers every account managers talk to customers every day. I go out and talk to the account day. I go out and talk to the account day. I go out and talk to the account managers to figure out what are the managers to figure out what are the managers to figure out what are the questions that several different questions that several different questions that several different customers are asking us and then based customers are asking us and then based customers are asking us and then based off of that to create the contact. So I off of that to create the contact. So I off of that to create the contact. So I think with this think with this think with this sales process, it's a bit similar that sales process, it's a bit similar that sales process, it's a bit similar that having feedback from one person who having feedback from one person who having feedback from one person who isn't even paying for the product isn't isn't even paying for the product isn't isn't even paying for the product isn't valuable. But if you're hearing it from valuable. But if you're hearing it from valuable. But if you're hearing it from several different sources, several several different sources, several several different sources, several different uh people are kind of different uh people are kind of different uh people are kind of objecting in the same way or giving you objecting in the same way or giving you objecting in the same way or giving you any kind of feedback, then it's any kind of feedback, then it's any kind of feedback, then it's something that is worth exploring. And something that is worth exploring. And something that is worth exploring. And that's when before we did the pivot, it that's when before we did the pivot, it that's when before we did the pivot, it was also kind of one example of what was also kind of one example of what was also kind of one example of what came up. There was that yes, in theory came up. There was that yes, in theory came up. There was that yes, in theory it's a great tool that you're building, it's a great tool that you're building, it's a great tool that you're building, but this means that they need to go and but this means that they need to go and but this means that they need to go and educate the 100 people on how to like do

educate the 100 people on how to like do educate the 100 people on how to like do their work in a different way. And if their work in a different way. And if their work in a different way. And if it's one person telling that, then you it's one person telling that, then you it's one person telling that, then you can kind of ignore it and keep pushing can kind of ignore it and keep pushing can kind of ignore it and keep pushing their vision. But if you get that their vision. But if you get that their vision. But if you get that feedback from like half of the demo feedback from like half of the demo feedback from like half of the demo calls, then obviously that's something calls, then obviously that's something calls, then obviously that's something that you uh that you need to that you uh that you need to that you uh that you need to incorporate. M incorporate. M incorporate. M >> this is really I' I've been listening >> this is really I' I've been listening >> this is really I' I've been listening attentively to how you've been talking attentively to how you've been talking attentively to how you've been talking about all of this. Matias, do you about all of this. Matias, do you about all of this. Matias, do you consider yourself a saleserson? consider yourself a saleserson? consider yourself a saleserson? >> It's uh for me it's tricky that >> It's uh for me it's tricky that >> It's uh for me it's tricky that [laughter] I would say no. uh because uh [laughter] I would say no. uh because uh [laughter] I would say no. uh because uh fundamentally my strength is in uh fundamentally my strength is in uh fundamentally my strength is in uh something that I think uh sales people something that I think uh sales people something that I think uh sales people need to have as a inher inherent part of need to have as a inher inherent part of need to have as a inher inherent part of their nature which is uh being a good their nature which is uh being a good their nature which is uh being a good conversationalist and being uh like open conversationalist and being uh like open conversationalist and being uh like open and being extroverted and uh maybe I'm and being extroverted and uh maybe I'm and being extroverted and uh maybe I'm like talking more or less normally right like talking more or less normally right like talking more or less normally right now but whenever I'm in an actual sales now but whenever I'm in an actual sales now but whenever I'm in an actual sales call I completely freeze up and my face call I completely freeze up and my face call I completely freeze up and my face black and then this uh classical black and then this uh classical black and then this uh classical Estonian. Uh so so I would say that uh I Estonian. Uh so so I would say that uh I Estonian. Uh so so I would say that uh I I'm more interested in uh like building I'm more interested in uh like building I'm more interested in uh like building up systems and processes and the up systems and processes and the up systems and processes and the repeatable structures and that part of repeatable structures and that part of repeatable structures and that part of sales is something that uh that does sales is something that uh that does sales is something that uh that does interest me. So from day one when I interest me. So from day one when I interest me. So from day one when I started doing the sales outreach started doing the sales outreach started doing the sales outreach uh HubSpot, how do I set up the like the uh HubSpot, how do I set up the like the uh HubSpot, how do I set up the like the pipeline? What are the different stages?

pipeline? What are the different stages? pipeline? What are the different stages? How often I need to follow up? So I'm How often I need to follow up? So I'm How often I need to follow up? So I'm I'm okay on the systems part, but when I'm okay on the systems part, but when I'm okay on the systems part, but when it comes to actually talking with it comes to actually talking with it comes to actually talking with people, then that's something that I'm people, then that's something that I'm people, then that's something that I'm really not uh not uh great at, I think. really not uh not uh great at, I think. really not uh not uh great at, I think. But it's kind of if I can sell it, then But it's kind of if I can sell it, then But it's kind of if I can sell it, then nobody else will be able to sell it. And nobody else will be able to sell it. And nobody else will be able to sell it. And if me as a crappy salesperson can sell if me as a crappy salesperson can sell if me as a crappy salesperson can sell it, then uh good salesperson can uh can it, then uh good salesperson can uh can it, then uh good salesperson can uh can sell it uh sell it as well. And I think sell it uh sell it as well. And I think sell it uh sell it as well. And I think there's also this differentiation there's also this differentiation there's also this differentiation between like if you're in an early stage between like if you're in an early stage between like if you're in an early stage startup, what you're more doing is startup, what you're more doing is startup, what you're more doing is business development, which in my mind business development, which in my mind business development, which in my mind is like uh going to a new market and is like uh going to a new market and is like uh going to a new market and figuring out what's the repeatable and figuring out what's the repeatable and figuring out what's the repeatable and scalable way to succeed in that market. scalable way to succeed in that market. scalable way to succeed in that market. and pure sales, at least in my mind, is and pure sales, at least in my mind, is and pure sales, at least in my mind, is when you already have that system when you already have that system when you already have that system figured out. Uh you're doing tweaks to figured out. Uh you're doing tweaks to figured out. Uh you're doing tweaks to it, but it's uh more about like uh doing it, but it's uh more about like uh doing it, but it's uh more about like uh doing the same thing over and uh over again. the same thing over and uh over again. the same thing over and uh over again. Obviously, yeah, you take feedback in as Obviously, yeah, you take feedback in as Obviously, yeah, you take feedback in as well, but it's already something where well, but it's already something where well, but it's already something where you know there's 10,000 companies who you know there's 10,000 companies who you know there's 10,000 companies who are already using this. You're not using are already using this. You're not using are already using this. You're not using it yet, but it's okay. we will get you it yet, but it's okay. we will get you it yet, but it's okay. we will get you sorted out and figure out what the sorted out and figure out what the sorted out and figure out what the objections are and where where to find objections are and where where to find objections are and where where to find budget and uh uh and so on.

budget and uh uh and so on. budget and uh uh and so on. >> I love it so much. Most entrepreneurs >> I love it so much. Most entrepreneurs >> I love it so much. Most entrepreneurs will say this, right? Like they'll say, will say this, right? Like they'll say, will say this, right? Like they'll say, "Yeah, I know I'm not a salesperson, but "Yeah, I know I'm not a salesperson, but "Yeah, I know I'm not a salesperson, but like like like >> somebody somebody got me this with this >> somebody somebody got me this with this >> somebody somebody got me this with this the other day. This is it was about six the other day. This is it was about six the other day. This is it was about six months ago and um somebody asked me this months ago and um somebody asked me this months ago and um somebody asked me this question. I So I you know, I have a question. I So I you know, I have a question. I So I you know, I have a variety of hobbies. I like hobbies. I variety of hobbies. I like hobbies. I variety of hobbies. I like hobbies. I don't do them full-time. So I don't don't do them full-time. So I don't don't do them full-time. So I don't consider myself to be like one of like consider myself to be like one of like consider myself to be like one of like like I take pictures. not a like I take pictures. not a like I take pictures. not a photographer. So, somebody was like, photographer. So, somebody was like, photographer. So, somebody was like, "Why aren't you why don't you call "Why aren't you why don't you call "Why aren't you why don't you call yourself a photographer? You take yourself a photographer? You take yourself a photographer? You take pictures." I was like, because I don't pictures." I was like, because I don't pictures." I was like, because I don't do it full-time. They're like, "Is that do it full-time. They're like, "Is that do it full-time. They're like, "Is that the definition?" Like, if you like, the definition?" Like, if you like, the definition?" Like, if you like, "What is the definition of a "What is the definition of a "What is the definition of a photographer?" I'm like, "Somebody who photographer?" I'm like, "Somebody who photographer?" I'm like, "Somebody who takes pictures." They're like, "Okay, takes pictures." They're like, "Okay, takes pictures." They're like, "Okay, then you're a photographer, right?" then you're a photographer, right?" then you're a photographer, right?" Like, "Well, okay, by that definition." Like, "Well, okay, by that definition." Like, "Well, okay, by that definition." Like, you're doing sales, Like, you're doing sales, Like, you're doing sales, you're selling, that makes you a you're selling, that makes you a you're selling, that makes you a salesperson whether you identifi I love salesperson whether you identifi I love salesperson whether you identifi I love the identity crisis of this. It's like the identity crisis of this. It's like the identity crisis of this. It's like we all suffer from this at some place in we all suffer from this at some place in we all suffer from this at some place in our lives where we're like, "Yeah, we do our lives where we're like, "Yeah, we do our lives where we're like, "Yeah, we do a thing. We do it regularly, but no, a thing. We do it regularly, but no, a thing. We do it regularly, but no, we're not that thing." But yet actually we're not that thing." But yet actually we're not that thing." But yet actually really kind of we are. Like I I think really kind of we are. Like I I think really kind of we are. Like I I think it's also to do a lot with like if you it's also to do a lot with like if you it's also to do a lot with like if you go to somebody who is outside of sales go to somebody who is outside of sales go to somebody who is outside of sales and you tell them you're a saleserson, and you tell them you're a saleserson, and you tell them you're a saleserson, it uh like you're guaranteed to get it uh like you're guaranteed to get it uh like you're guaranteed to get negative connotations. Nobody's going to negative connotations. Nobody's going to negative connotations. Nobody's going to be like, "Oh, that's amazing that you be like, "Oh, that's amazing that you be like, "Oh, that's amazing that you know what you're doing is saving saving know what you're doing is saving saving know what you're doing is saving saving the world. It's it's wonderful." So, but the world. It's it's wonderful." So, but the world. It's it's wonderful." So, but but that negative connotation comes from but that negative connotation comes from but that negative connotation comes from I think it's surprising that even in I think it's surprising that even in I think it's surprising that even in this day and age, there's so much this day and age, there's so much this day and age, there's so much knowledge and information available

knowledge and information available knowledge and information available about how you should be selling and like about how you should be selling and like about how you should be selling and like how to do it in a good way. But then you how to do it in a good way. But then you how to do it in a good way. But then you get still so many, you know, this why get still so many, you know, this why get still so many, you know, this why cold outreach is considered negative. cold outreach is considered negative. cold outreach is considered negative. You you just get uh spam and all I You you just get uh spam and all I You you just get uh spam and all I always like take a look at it and think always like take a look at it and think always like take a look at it and think that come on. It it would take like a that come on. It it would take like a that come on. It it would take like a couple of hours to figure out a better couple of hours to figure out a better couple of hours to figure out a better pitch than to write me that we we are a pitch than to write me that we we are a pitch than to write me that we we are a software development agency. Do you want software development agency. Do you want software development agency. Do you want to buy like development services? So, to buy like development services? So, to buy like development services? So, so that's uh yeah, I I think it's to do so that's uh yeah, I I think it's to do so that's uh yeah, I I think it's to do also for like it's cooler to be a also for like it's cooler to be a also for like it's cooler to be a founder or product person or even like founder or product person or even like founder or product person or even like let's say account manager whoever than let's say account manager whoever than let's say account manager whoever than it is to be a saleserson because the it is to be a saleserson because the it is to be a saleserson because the connotations that come along with it are connotations that come along with it are connotations that come along with it are uh are almost always like negative. So I uh are almost always like negative. So I uh are almost always like negative. So I think that's why people want to want to think that's why people want to want to think that's why people want to want to distance uh uh distance from it. distance uh uh distance from it. distance uh uh distance from it. >> It's such a strange phenomenon. Every >> It's such a strange phenomenon. Every >> It's such a strange phenomenon. Every business needs effective selling and yet business needs effective selling and yet business needs effective selling and yet nobody seems to want to like like I this nobody seems to want to like like I this nobody seems to want to like like I this is actually one thing I've really is actually one thing I've really is actually one thing I've really appreciated there's been a shift in tech appreciated there's been a shift in tech appreciated there's been a shift in tech in the Boston area. We've had a number in the Boston area. We've had a number in the Boston area. We've had a number of really successful tech companies of really successful tech companies of really successful tech companies HubSpot Log Me Inclavio.

HubSpot Log Me Inclavio. HubSpot Log Me Inclavio. One of the things that's true about all One of the things that's true about all One of the things that's true about all of them is they they figure out a really of them is they they figure out a really of them is they they figure out a really solid sales motion and they do it say solid sales motion and they do it say solid sales motion and they do it say and they do it well. And so culturally and they do it well. And so culturally and they do it well. And so culturally around here, the stigma like it's around here, the stigma like it's around here, the stigma like it's actually competitive. Like people are actually competitive. Like people are actually competitive. Like people are like, "Oh yeah, you do sales for so and like, "Oh yeah, you do sales for so and like, "Oh yeah, you do sales for so and so." Like like it's actually like warmly so." Like like it's actually like warmly so." Like like it's actually like warmly regarded here. And it's a nice paradigm regarded here. And it's a nice paradigm regarded here. And it's a nice paradigm shift because it's something you don't shift because it's something you don't shift because it's something you don't see everywhere, but I do see culturally see everywhere, but I do see culturally see everywhere, but I do see culturally that there is a bit of a shift to that there is a bit of a shift to that there is a bit of a shift to understanding the value of it and like understanding the value of it and like understanding the value of it and like an appreciation for it. Um it's but it an appreciation for it. Um it's but it an appreciation for it. Um it's but it is funny. You talk to a lot of people is funny. You talk to a lot of people is funny. You talk to a lot of people that are like, "Oh yeah, no, I'm not a that are like, "Oh yeah, no, I'm not a that are like, "Oh yeah, no, I'm not a salesperson." and they don't want to be salesperson." and they don't want to be salesperson." and they don't want to be seen as a salesperson. Um, but I do seen as a salesperson. Um, but I do seen as a salesperson. Um, but I do think there's such a critical importance think there's such a critical importance think there's such a critical importance to that that we're um that stigma is to that that we're um that stigma is to that that we're um that stigma is weird. It's almost a Yeah, it's like I weird. It's almost a Yeah, it's like I weird. It's almost a Yeah, it's like I get it in some places culturally. I get it in some places culturally. I get it in some places culturally. I think it's it's interesting because like think it's it's interesting because like think it's it's interesting because like when you want to reach a company and you when you want to reach a company and you when you want to reach a company and you want to buy a product, it's really want to buy a product, it's really want to buy a product, it's really irritating if there's not if that's not irritating if there's not if that's not irritating if there's not if that's not easy to do or if there's not support for easy to do or if there's not support for easy to do or if there's not support for that, that's selling. Um, and so like that, that's selling. Um, and so like that, that's selling. Um, and so like even as a buyer, you should want that.

even as a buyer, you should want that. even as a buyer, you should want that. You should desire that. But the idea of You should desire that. But the idea of You should desire that. But the idea of being sold to is like somehow bad for being sold to is like somehow bad for being sold to is like somehow bad for us. Like we're convinced we don't want us. Like we're convinced we don't want us. Like we're convinced we don't want to be sold to. We just want you to help to be sold to. We just want you to help to be sold to. We just want you to help us buy. It's a interesting phenomen. us buy. It's a interesting phenomen. us buy. It's a interesting phenomen. >> Yeah. I think if you if you look at it >> Yeah. I think if you if you look at it >> Yeah. I think if you if you look at it on kind of a higher and abstract level on kind of a higher and abstract level on kind of a higher and abstract level then in reality having like a sales then in reality having like a sales then in reality having like a sales skill set regardless of whatever role skill set regardless of whatever role skill set regardless of whatever role you're in is super useful because if you're in is super useful because if you're in is super useful because if whether you're a product manager or what whether you're a product manager or what whether you're a product manager or what whatever other role you are in at the whatever other role you are in at the whatever other role you are in at the end of the day you have people you need end of the day you have people you need end of the day you have people you need to work together with and uh the better to work together with and uh the better to work together with and uh the better you are able to convince them to come on you are able to convince them to come on you are able to convince them to come on board and along with your ideas the more board and along with your ideas the more board and along with your ideas the more efficiently efficiently efficiently you're going to be performing in in your you're going to be performing in in your you're going to be performing in in your role and whether it's whether you're role and whether it's whether you're role and whether it's whether you're selling the product or selling an idea selling the product or selling an idea selling the product or selling an idea to your teammate. Uh a lot of kind of to your teammate. Uh a lot of kind of to your teammate. Uh a lot of kind of the tactics and logic what you can use the tactics and logic what you can use the tactics and logic what you can use behind it uh is is exactly it's exactly behind it uh is is exactly it's exactly behind it uh is is exactly it's exactly the same. So the same. So the same. So >> we all get cold emails, but I'm really >> we all get cold emails, but I'm really >> we all get cold emails, but I'm really interested to to know what you consider interested to to know what you consider interested to to know what you consider to be a good cold email. I would say to be a good cold email. I would say to be a good cold email. I would say that this goes back to what we discussed that this goes back to what we discussed that this goes back to what we discussed uh earlier a little bit about the uh earlier a little bit about the uh earlier a little bit about the timing. So for me the the timing is the timing. So for me the the timing is the timing. So for me the the timing is the most uh most critical part because when most uh most critical part because when most uh most critical part because when I think of what products I have bought I think of what products I have bought I think of what products I have bought myself in terms of like uh from B2B in a myself in terms of like uh from B2B in a myself in terms of like uh from B2B in a B2B context uh I I don't remember those

B2B context uh I I don't remember those B2B context uh I I don't remember those emails themselves but what I do remember emails themselves but what I do remember emails themselves but what I do remember is that they came at exactly the right is that they came at exactly the right is that they came at exactly the right time when I needed uh and and was time when I needed uh and and was time when I needed uh and and was actually out on the market looking uh actually out on the market looking uh actually out on the market looking uh looking uh for it. But I would say that looking uh for it. But I would say that looking uh for it. But I would say that kind of regardless of of the timing kind of regardless of of the timing kind of regardless of of the timing angle then in my view the cold email it angle then in my view the cold email it angle then in my view the cold email it needs to talk about my problem as the needs to talk about my problem as the needs to talk about my problem as the buyer rather than talking about the buyer rather than talking about the buyer rather than talking about the product. So product. So product. So what is the problem that the person what is the problem that the person what is the problem that the person who's contact me uh contacting me uh uh who's contact me uh contacting me uh uh who's contact me uh contacting me uh uh what do they think my problem is uh and what do they think my problem is uh and what do they think my problem is uh and are they also able to help me in a way are they also able to help me in a way are they also able to help me in a way where even if I don't buy their product where even if I don't buy their product where even if I don't buy their product they still give me some useful uh they still give me some useful uh they still give me some useful uh information that I can use to do my work information that I can use to do my work information that I can use to do my work uh better because that also goes uh better because that also goes uh better because that also goes together with the timing part that if together with the timing part that if together with the timing part that if you're just a sleazy spammer who's just you're just a sleazy spammer who's just you're just a sleazy spammer who's just sending over and over that, hey, do you sending over and over that, hey, do you sending over and over that, hey, do you want to buy our product? Then I'm never want to buy our product? Then I'm never want to buy our product? Then I'm never going to buy. If you've helped me in a going to buy. If you've helped me in a going to buy. If you've helped me in a way in a past or at least given me some way in a past or at least given me some way in a past or at least given me some kind of new idea to think about and I'm kind of new idea to think about and I'm kind of new idea to think about and I'm not looking for something right now, but not looking for something right now, but not looking for something right now, but you contact me again in 3 months, I will you contact me again in 3 months, I will you contact me again in 3 months, I will be more likely to uh to buy from you. So be more likely to uh to buy from you. So be more likely to uh to buy from you. So at least that's how I try to approach uh at least that's how I try to approach uh at least that's how I try to approach uh when I'm I'm drafting up our own when I'm I'm drafting up our own when I'm I'm drafting up our own outreach campaigns as well is that even outreach campaigns as well is that even outreach campaigns as well is that even if the person never replies to me if the person never replies to me if the person never replies to me doesn't get back is there something

doesn't get back is there something doesn't get back is there something other than just talking about our other than just talking about our other than just talking about our product that knowing the problem space product that knowing the problem space product that knowing the problem space that we're operating in I could uh like that we're operating in I could uh like that we're operating in I could uh like provide them some kind of new insight provide them some kind of new insight provide them some kind of new insight value a different angle to uh to think value a different angle to uh to think value a different angle to uh to think from from from >> any of us that are decision makers are >> any of us that are decision makers are >> any of us that are decision makers are any problem solving capacity. It's our any problem solving capacity. It's our any problem solving capacity. It's our actually technically our job, right? And actually technically our job, right? And actually technically our job, right? And so we have to be on the lookout. so we have to be on the lookout. so we have to be on the lookout. Frankly, there aren't that many great Frankly, there aren't that many great Frankly, there aren't that many great ways to discover products. There's, you ways to discover products. There's, you ways to discover products. There's, you know, you have to find out about it know, you have to find out about it know, you have to find out about it somewhere and then you probably go somewhere and then you probably go somewhere and then you probably go Google it and then do some research. So Google it and then do some research. So Google it and then do some research. So like yeah, even if the timing is wrong, like yeah, even if the timing is wrong, like yeah, even if the timing is wrong, I find I still will read all the I find I still will read all the I find I still will read all the messages that come through and the ones messages that come through and the ones messages that come through and the ones that are relevant even if I'm know like that are relevant even if I'm know like that are relevant even if I'm know like the problem is right, the timing is 6 the problem is right, the timing is 6 the problem is right, the timing is 6 months off, but I'm still getting a months off, but I'm still getting a months off, but I'm still getting a decent impression and I might even I decent impression and I might even I decent impression and I might even I might even share that email or I might might even share that email or I might might even share that email or I might bookmark, you know, like save it for bookmark, you know, like save it for bookmark, you know, like save it for later, put a reminder on it. Like I later, put a reminder on it. Like I later, put a reminder on it. Like I think there's a lot of value if you do think there's a lot of value if you do think there's a lot of value if you do the cold outreach right and you're the cold outreach right and you're the cold outreach right and you're trying to make sure you're establishing trying to make sure you're establishing trying to make sure you're establishing the right value. Even if the timing is the right value. Even if the timing is the right value. Even if the timing is off, it's still a good valuable touch off, it's still a good valuable touch off, it's still a good valuable touch point. And it sounds like Yeah, it point. And it sounds like Yeah, it point. And it sounds like Yeah, it sounds like you agree with that. So what sounds like you agree with that. So what sounds like you agree with that. So what you what I'm getting from you, Matias, you what I'm getting from you, Matias, you what I'm getting from you, Matias, though, is that really the secret to all though, is that really the secret to all though, is that really the secret to all of this is your tech stack, right? Like of this is your tech stack, right? Like of this is your tech stack, right? Like this is like [laughter] this is like [laughter] this is like [laughter] like that's really the secret to cold like that's really the secret to cold like that's really the secret to cold outreach after all. I mean, if we've all outreach after all. I mean, if we've all outreach after all. I mean, if we've all read the the web, it's it's all about read the the web, it's it's all about read the the web, it's it's all about your tech stack. Uh what's your tech your tech stack. Uh what's your tech your tech stack. Uh what's your tech stack?

stack? stack? I think it's a loaded question they're I think it's a loaded question they're I think it's a loaded question they're asking me but our tech stack is uh is asking me but our tech stack is uh is asking me but our tech stack is uh is very simple. Uh we have Hopspot for like very simple. Uh we have Hopspot for like very simple. Uh we have Hopspot for like the deal and and pipeline or we they say the deal and and pipeline or we they say the deal and and pipeline or we they say we but it's me. we but it's me. we but it's me. >> So >> So >> So >> you and the sales team are using HubSpot >> you and the sales team are using HubSpot >> you and the sales team are using HubSpot right here. right here. right here. >> So HubSpot for the deal management uh >> So HubSpot for the deal management uh >> So HubSpot for the deal management uh and and task management. Uh we use and and task management. Uh we use and and task management. Uh we use Hunter io for uh the email discovery uh Hunter io for uh the email discovery uh Hunter io for uh the email discovery uh validation and uh cold outreach validation and uh cold outreach validation and uh cold outreach campaigns, LinkedIn sales navigator campaigns, LinkedIn sales navigator campaigns, LinkedIn sales navigator uh and that's uh pretty pretty much uh uh and that's uh pretty pretty much uh uh and that's uh pretty pretty much uh it because uh we're bootstrap so we it because uh we're bootstrap so we it because uh we're bootstrap so we don't have the resources to invest in don't have the resources to invest in don't have the resources to invest in some super fancy expensive uh solutions some super fancy expensive uh solutions some super fancy expensive uh solutions and I think for us right now this uh and I think for us right now this uh and I think for us right now this uh simple solution works works as well simple solution works works as well simple solution works works as well because uh like finding the product because uh like finding the product because uh like finding the product market fit and figuring out what exactly market fit and figuring out what exactly market fit and figuring out what exactly to build and what exactly is the problem to build and what exactly is the problem to build and what exactly is the problem or the hook that uh resonates and gets or the hook that uh resonates and gets or the hook that uh resonates and gets people to talk with us. It's it's not a people to talk with us. It's it's not a people to talk with us. It's it's not a tech uh like a tech issue or something tech uh like a tech issue or something tech uh like a tech issue or something that the new or better tool will uh will that the new or better tool will uh will that the new or better tool will uh will allow us to uh to solve that that will allow us to uh to solve that that will allow us to uh to solve that that will come from the actual discussions with come from the actual discussions with come from the actual discussions with the uh people not from uh from a tool.

the uh people not from uh from a tool. the uh people not from uh from a tool. What I do use is this goes kind of What I do use is this goes kind of What I do use is this goes kind of together with how to figure out who our together with how to figure out who our together with how to figure out who our ICP is. Uh when is the right time for an ICP is. Uh when is the right time for an ICP is. Uh when is the right time for an organization to be buying from us or us organization to be buying from us or us organization to be buying from us or us selling to them. uh then uh I've tried selling to them. uh then uh I've tried selling to them. uh then uh I've tried to kind of come up with a bunch of to kind of come up with a bunch of to kind of come up with a bunch of intent signals that would be as uh cheap intent signals that would be as uh cheap intent signals that would be as uh cheap as possible to access because again we as possible to access because again we as possible to access because again we we don't have a lot of resources. So uh we don't have a lot of resources. So uh we don't have a lot of resources. So uh we're looking at it from the perspective we're looking at it from the perspective we're looking at it from the perspective of organizations who are likely going of organizations who are likely going of organizations who are likely going through multiple parallel complex through multiple parallel complex through multiple parallel complex changes at once are the ones who are changes at once are the ones who are changes at once are the ones who are well firstly we're targeting like well firstly we're targeting like well firstly we're targeting like organizations from 50 to 500 people. So organizations from 50 to 500 people. So organizations from 50 to 500 people. So uh when we look into that kind of uh when we look into that kind of uh when we look into that kind of subsegment of companies uh who is hiring subsegment of companies uh who is hiring subsegment of companies uh who is hiring HR people who is hiring like change HR people who is hiring like change HR people who is hiring like change transformation people who is maybe transformation people who is maybe transformation people who is maybe hiring ops people so a really easy way hiring ops people so a really easy way hiring ops people so a really easy way to actually do it is uh and this is on to actually do it is uh and this is on to actually do it is uh and this is on LinkedIn for free is you just subscribe LinkedIn for free is you just subscribe LinkedIn for free is you just subscribe to the job alerts. So you're like to the job alerts. So you're like to the job alerts. So you're like looking for a job in those looking for a job in those looking for a job in those organizations, but then you get the organizations, but then you get the organizations, but then you get the daily digest of uh uh of this company is daily digest of uh uh of this company is daily digest of uh uh of this company is hiring for let's say uh like a human hiring for let's say uh like a human hiring for let's say uh like a human resources business partner. So for us I resources business partner. So for us I resources business partner. So for us I then go and look that you know it's okay then go and look that you know it's okay then go and look that you know it's okay it's a company that's in size uh right it's a company that's in size uh right it's a company that's in size uh right for us. it's in the right uh sector uh for us. it's in the right uh sector uh for us. it's in the right uh sector uh seems to be like a good profile and the seems to be like a good profile and the seems to be like a good profile and the fact that they're hiring let's say HR

fact that they're hiring let's say HR fact that they're hiring let's say HR people is an indication that they have people is an indication that they have people is an indication that they have some kind of not like negative some kind of not like negative some kind of not like negative challenges but HR is something that they challenges but HR is something that they challenges but HR is something that they are ramping up which means there's are ramping up which means there's are ramping up which means there's changes going on which means that maybe changes going on which means that maybe changes going on which means that maybe our tool will uh uh will be of interest our tool will uh uh will be of interest our tool will uh uh will be of interest uh interest them. Yeah. So, so all all uh interest them. Yeah. So, so all all uh interest them. Yeah. So, so all all kinds of like well it's it's kind of kinds of like well it's it's kind of kinds of like well it's it's kind of easier if if you are selling to other easier if if you are selling to other easier if if you are selling to other startups as well is many different startups as well is many different startups as well is many different startup leaderboards that get published startup leaderboards that get published startup leaderboards that get published by by various sites as well as by by various sites as well as by by various sites as well as specifically for our product. uh cloud specifically for our product. uh cloud specifically for our product. uh cloud store is a pretty good uh source of store is a pretty good uh source of store is a pretty good uh source of insight because you go and look at the insight because you go and look at the insight because you go and look at the employee reviews and that's actually one employee reviews and that's actually one employee reviews and that's actually one of the few places where you can get uh of the few places where you can get uh of the few places where you can get uh like an internal understanding of what's like an internal understanding of what's like an internal understanding of what's going on in the uh in the organization going on in the uh in the organization going on in the uh in the organization as well. Obviously, it may be that it's as well. Obviously, it may be that it's as well. Obviously, it may be that it's dis disgruntled employees who are always dis disgruntled employees who are always dis disgruntled employees who are always uh uh louder, but still uh uh louder, but still uh uh louder, but still it's something that in theory at least it's something that in theory at least it's something that in theory at least should resonate in our case with the HR should resonate in our case with the HR should resonate in our case with the HR person. If there's like 10 reviews that person. If there's like 10 reviews that person. If there's like 10 reviews that management doesn't communicate enough, management doesn't communicate enough, management doesn't communicate enough, then it's a pretty catchy hook to say then it's a pretty catchy hook to say then it's a pretty catchy hook to say that hey, I looked at the glass door that hey, I looked at the glass door that hey, I looked at the glass door page and there seems to be a lot of page and there seems to be a lot of page and there seems to be a lot of people who are not happy with internal people who are not happy with internal people who are not happy with internal communication. So, uh, maybe you're communication. So, uh, maybe you're communication. So, uh, maybe you're interested in hearing us out and, uh, interested in hearing us out and, uh, interested in hearing us out and, uh, uh, and maybe we can help you get it to uh, and maybe we can help you get it to uh, and maybe we can help you get it to a little bit better, uh, better level.

a little bit better, uh, better level. a little bit better, uh, better level. >> Do you do you email right away? Do like >> Do you do you email right away? Do like >> Do you do you email right away? Do like do you say, "Oh, they're hiring HR. do you say, "Oh, they're hiring HR. do you say, "Oh, they're hiring HR. Let's reach out now." Or do you say, Let's reach out now." Or do you say, Let's reach out now." Or do you say, "They're hiring HR. Let's schedule the "They're hiring HR. Let's schedule the "They're hiring HR. Let's schedule the campaign for like 30 days after they campaign for like 30 days after they campaign for like 30 days after they post the job." Like, how do you post the job." Like, how do you post the job." Like, how do you structure your response to the signal? structure your response to the signal? structure your response to the signal? >> Uh, for for me, it goes like immediately >> Uh, for for me, it goes like immediately >> Uh, for for me, it goes like immediately into uh into our list. So I start the into uh into our list. So I start the into uh into our list. So I start the outreach immediately and I try to also outreach immediately and I try to also outreach immediately and I try to also in parallel uh reach out on uh on in parallel uh reach out on uh on in parallel uh reach out on uh on LinkedIn as well to like get two two LinkedIn as well to like get two two LinkedIn as well to like get two two channels kind of in in parallel because channels kind of in in parallel because channels kind of in in parallel because maybe people don't email goes to them maybe people don't email goes to them maybe people don't email goes to them but I managed to get through to them on but I managed to get through to them on but I managed to get through to them on on LinkedIn or they are a person who on LinkedIn or they are a person who on LinkedIn or they are a person who never goes on LinkedIn. So then maybe uh never goes on LinkedIn. So then maybe uh never goes on LinkedIn. So then maybe uh maybe I'm able to kind of catch them maybe I'm able to kind of catch them maybe I'm able to kind of catch them through uh the email cuz I think at that through uh the email cuz I think at that through uh the email cuz I think at that point then also this kind of a job ad point then also this kind of a job ad point then also this kind of a job ad part is something where then the top part is something where then the top part is something where then the top topic is freshly on the table. They've topic is freshly on the table. They've topic is freshly on the table. They've just taken the decision maybe in the just taken the decision maybe in the just taken the decision maybe in the last couple of weeks that okay this is last couple of weeks that okay this is last couple of weeks that okay this is like we we need to put focus here. Let's like we we need to put focus here. Let's like we we need to put focus here. Let's get the person hired draft up the job get the person hired draft up the job get the person hired draft up the job ad. let's get it uh going. And then it's ad. let's get it uh going. And then it's ad. let's get it uh going. And then it's a little bit kind of there signaling a little bit kind of there signaling a little bit kind of there signaling that they have the challenge and you're that they have the challenge and you're that they have the challenge and you're there to like immediately uh address the there to like immediately uh address the there to like immediately uh address the challenge. At least that's kind of the challenge. At least that's kind of the challenge. At least that's kind of the how I've been uh how I've been looking how I've been uh how I've been looking how I've been uh how I've been looking uh looking at it.

uh looking at it. uh looking at it. >> Nice. Sometimes when people use intent >> Nice. Sometimes when people use intent >> Nice. Sometimes when people use intent signals, the timing is different. signals, the timing is different. signals, the timing is different. They're like, "Yeah, I don't want to They're like, "Yeah, I don't want to They're like, "Yeah, I don't want to send it while they're hiring because send it while they're hiring because send it while they're hiring because then the person who's going to buy it is then the person who's going to buy it is then the person who's going to buy it is maybe not in place yet." Sounds like for maybe not in place yet." Sounds like for maybe not in place yet." Sounds like for you it's worked that you can kick those you it's worked that you can kick those you it's worked that you can kick those those react, you know, those those react, you know, those those react, you know, those interactions off right away. Sometimes interactions off right away. Sometimes interactions off right away. Sometimes it's very different, right? Sometimes it's very different, right? Sometimes it's very different, right? Sometimes the right answer is to to put a buffer the right answer is to to put a buffer the right answer is to to put a buffer of time in there. Um or wait till the of time in there. Um or wait till the of time in there. Um or wait till the job is no longer present, you know, like job is no longer present, you know, like job is no longer present, you know, like making it seeing when the job goes away making it seeing when the job goes away making it seeing when the job goes away is sometimes the signal as opposed to uh is sometimes the signal as opposed to uh is sometimes the signal as opposed to uh the job getting posted. That's the job getting posted. That's the job getting posted. That's interesting. I like that. I I tell you interesting. I like that. I I tell you interesting. I like that. I I tell you uh we know the guys at Hunter I really uh we know the guys at Hunter I really uh we know the guys at Hunter I really well. They're sponsors obviously. We'll well. They're sponsors obviously. We'll well. They're sponsors obviously. We'll have to give him that feedback about have to give him that feedback about have to give him that feedback about using multiple channels and see if maybe using multiple channels and see if maybe using multiple channels and see if maybe the product road map should reflect the product road map should reflect the product road map should reflect that. that. that. >> So, Matise, before we uh wrap up today's >> So, Matise, before we uh wrap up today's >> So, Matise, before we uh wrap up today's episode, this has been this has been episode, this has been this has been episode, this has been this has been great. Um, if you could give one piece great. Um, if you could give one piece great. Um, if you could give one piece of advice to a a reluctant co-founder of advice to a a reluctant co-founder of advice to a a reluctant co-founder who may be trying to sell what he's been who may be trying to sell what he's been who may be trying to sell what he's been building, what would that advice be?

building, what would that advice be? building, what would that advice be? based on what I learned from the past based on what I learned from the past based on what I learned from the past year like you you need to love your year like you you need to love your year like you you need to love your product but then you need to put your product but then you need to put your product but then you need to put your product away and uh put your idea away product away and uh put your idea away product away and uh put your idea away and uh put on your uh researcher uh and uh put on your uh researcher uh and uh put on your uh researcher uh goggles and go and ask people questions goggles and go and ask people questions goggles and go and ask people questions in a way where they give you honest in a way where they give you honest in a way where they give you honest feedback uh and try to get that feedback feedback uh and try to get that feedback feedback uh and try to get that feedback from people who don't know you uh at all from people who don't know you uh at all from people who don't know you uh at all because that's the place where you learn because that's the place where you learn because that's the place where you learn the most. It's extremely painful because the most. It's extremely painful because the most. It's extremely painful because it sucks. You write 100 emails, it's it sucks. You write 100 emails, it's it sucks. You write 100 emails, it's silence. You write another 100 emails, silence. You write another 100 emails, silence. You write another 100 emails, it's silence, and it doesn't work until it's silence, and it doesn't work until it's silence, and it doesn't work until it it does work. It's just one it it does work. It's just one it it does work. It's just one persistency, but in a way where you need persistency, but in a way where you need persistency, but in a way where you need to be adaptable as well to keep going, to be adaptable as well to keep going, to be adaptable as well to keep going, going, going, but if it's not working, going, going, but if it's not working, going, going, but if it's not working, then to adjust your uh adjust your then to adjust your uh adjust your then to adjust your uh adjust your approach. I think regardless of and approach. I think regardless of and approach. I think regardless of and especially now with AI and how many like especially now with AI and how many like especially now with AI and how many like different ways there are to reach out to different ways there are to reach out to different ways there are to reach out to people then the it doesn't actually make people then the it doesn't actually make people then the it doesn't actually make the work easier because now people like the work easier because now people like the work easier because now people like the volume of communication that they the volume of communication that they the volume of communication that they get is only increasing.

get is only increasing. get is only increasing. So, I think the situation is still the So, I think the situation is still the So, I think the situation is still the same that there's no secret sauce or one same that there's no secret sauce or one same that there's no secret sauce or one weird trick that will help you close weird trick that will help you close weird trick that will help you close much more deals. It's still like a much more deals. It's still like a much more deals. It's still like a numbers game and just putting in the the numbers game and just putting in the the numbers game and just putting in the the hours of uh doing it over and over and hours of uh doing it over and over and hours of uh doing it over and over and over again, but in a smart way. So over again, but in a smart way. So over again, but in a smart way. So constantly learning and uh taking every constantly learning and uh taking every constantly learning and uh taking every interaction, every know, every piece of interaction, every know, every piece of interaction, every know, every piece of feedback as something that not just that feedback as something that not just that feedback as something that not just that archive it, but how can I use that to archive it, but how can I use that to archive it, but how can I use that to make our uh our process uh better? And make our uh our process uh better? And make our uh our process uh better? And yeah, I I'm like an introvert. I my yeah, I I'm like an introvert. I my yeah, I I'm like an introvert. I my favorite time is when I'm home alone, favorite time is when I'm home alone, favorite time is when I'm home alone, completely isolated in total silence. completely isolated in total silence. completely isolated in total silence. And uh that's just like uh cost of doing And uh that's just like uh cost of doing And uh that's just like uh cost of doing business or if you want to actually business or if you want to actually business or if you want to actually build something then you need to put build something then you need to put build something then you need to put yourself through the pain of talking to yourself through the pain of talking to yourself through the pain of talking to talking to other people. I think talking to other people. I think talking to other people. I think especially if it's like technical person especially if it's like technical person especially if it's like technical person who is founding an organization because who is founding an organization because who is founding an organization because then there there's this joke I remember then there there's this joke I remember then there there's this joke I remember about do do you know uh who is an about do do you know uh who is an about do do you know uh who is an extroverted developer? Uh it's the extroverted developer? Uh it's the extroverted developer? Uh it's the developer who looks at the other developer who looks at the other developer who looks at the other person's shoes instead of their own. So person's shoes instead of their own. So person's shoes instead of their own. So [laughter] [laughter] [laughter] >> So uh yeah, that's my recommendation >> So uh yeah, that's my recommendation >> So uh yeah, that's my recommendation [clears throat] [clears throat] [clears throat] to just to just to just >> I like that >> I like that >> I like that >> like s suffer the pain and uh in >> like s suffer the pain and uh in >> like s suffer the pain and uh in the name of a good cause the name of a good cause the name of a good cause >> if if you really believe in the idea.

>> if if you really believe in the idea. >> if if you really believe in the idea. >> Lovely. >> Lovely. >> Lovely. >> Great. And how uh for our listeners, how >> Great. And how uh for our listeners, how >> Great. And how uh for our listeners, how can they learn more about process plot can they learn more about process plot can they learn more about process plot and yourself? Matias and yourself? Matias and yourself? Matias >> processblot.com >> processblot.com >> processblot.com and I connect with everyone who reaches and I connect with everyone who reaches and I connect with everyone who reaches out on uh on LinkedIn. So uh if kind of out on uh on LinkedIn. So uh if kind of out on uh on LinkedIn. So uh if kind of this change management change this change management change this change management change communication topic is of interest to communication topic is of interest to communication topic is of interest to any listeners then any listeners then any listeners then I will also guide try to go through the I will also guide try to go through the I will also guide try to go through the pain of talking to talking to new pain of talking to talking to new pain of talking to talking to new people. So please do reach out and no people. So please do reach out and no people. So please do reach out and no it's kind of a joke as well but do do it's kind of a joke as well but do do it's kind of a joke as well but do do reach out and yeah get in touch. reach out and yeah get in touch. reach out and yeah get in touch. >> Great. Thank you. Well, I've I've >> Great. Thank you. Well, I've I've >> Great. Thank you. Well, I've I've enjoyed the conversation, Matias. Uh, enjoyed the conversation, Matias. Uh, enjoyed the conversation, Matias. Uh, it's fun to hear what you're going it's fun to hear what you're going it's fun to hear what you're going through, your journey, kind of your your through, your journey, kind of your your through, your journey, kind of your your perspective on it, and honestly, that perspective on it, and honestly, that perspective on it, and honestly, that you're dealing with so many of the same you're dealing with so many of the same you're dealing with so many of the same challenges that we all face when we're challenges that we all face when we're challenges that we all face when we're when we're doing a business, whether when we're doing a business, whether when we're doing a business, whether that's in the early stages or even later that's in the early stages or even later that's in the early stages or even later stages. Like, you still need to figure stages. Like, you still need to figure stages. Like, you still need to figure out how to turn customer feedback into out how to turn customer feedback into out how to turn customer feedback into something useful. and uh you still have something useful. and uh you still have something useful. and uh you still have to battle with the identity crisis of to battle with the identity crisis of to battle with the identity crisis of realizing that you're selling all the realizing that you're selling all the realizing that you're selling all the time and yet you're not a salesperson.

time and yet you're not a salesperson. time and yet you're not a salesperson. So uh you know you have to somehow be So uh you know you have to somehow be So uh you know you have to somehow be good at a thing you're not doing good at a thing you're not doing good at a thing you're not doing supposedly. Uh so yeah, I think you're supposedly. Uh so yeah, I think you're supposedly. Uh so yeah, I think you're hearing your stories about that has been hearing your stories about that has been hearing your stories about that has been really great. So thank you for sharing. really great. So thank you for sharing. really great. So thank you for sharing. >> Thanks a lot for having and it's always >> Thanks a lot for having and it's always >> Thanks a lot for having and it's always good to understand or realize that good to understand or realize that good to understand or realize that there's other people out there who are there's other people out there who are there's other people out there who are going through the same struggle if going through the same struggle if going through the same struggle if you're sitting alone behind your laptop. you're sitting alone behind your laptop. you're sitting alone behind your laptop. So it it's a good reminder for me as So it it's a good reminder for me as So it it's a good reminder for me as well to on this. So yeah, thanks for well to on this. So yeah, thanks for well to on this. So yeah, thanks for having me on. having me on. having me on. >> So everyone, that has been Matias >> So everyone, that has been Matias >> So everyone, that has been Matias Liebeck. This has been Outf Fox and Liebeck. This has been Outf Fox and Liebeck. This has been Outf Fox and we're out of time. Thank you Matias. we're out of time. Thank you Matias. we're out of time. Thank you Matias. [music] [music] [music] Once again, thank you to Matias for Once again, thank you to Matias for Once again, thank you to Matias for joining today's episode of Outfox. If joining today's episode of Outfox. If joining today's episode of Outfox. If you like what you heard, please like, you like what you heard, please like, you like what you heard, please like, subscribe, and explore even more of the subscribe, and explore even more of the subscribe, and explore even more of the Outfox community by visiting Outfox community by visiting Outfox community by visiting www.outfox.hunter.io. [music] [music] He was Matias Lee. That was Matt Tharp. He was Matias Lee. That was Matt Tharp. He was Matias Lee. That was Matt Tharp. I am James Nelson. And we're out [music] I am James Nelson. And we're out [music] I am James Nelson. And we're out [music] of time.