Outfoxed podcast by Hunter.io | Ep.7: Dennis Kelly on why early wins don't always signal success

This is Outbox, [music] This is Outbox, [music] the podcast brought to you by hunter.io, the podcast brought to you by hunter.io, the podcast brought to you by hunter.io, the trusted B2B lead generation platform the trusted B2B lead generation platform the trusted B2B lead generation platform built for every professional. Get ready built for every professional. Get ready built for every professional. Get ready for no playbooks, no posturing, [music] for no playbooks, no posturing, [music] for no playbooks, no posturing, [music] and no yidos. I'm your host, Hunter's and no yidos. I'm your host, Hunter's and no yidos. I'm your host, Hunter's head of marketing, James Milson, and my head of marketing, James Milson, and my head of marketing, James Milson, and my guest today is Dennis Kelly, [music] the guest today is Dennis Kelly, [music] the guest today is Dennis Kelly, [music] the founder and CEO of direct mail founder and CEO of direct mail founder and CEO of direct mail automation provider, Postal Analytics. automation provider, Postal Analytics. automation provider, Postal Analytics. Let's get into it. All right, I'm joined Let's get into it. All right, I'm joined Let's get into it. All right, I'm joined today by Dennis Kelly, the CEO of Postal today by Dennis Kelly, the CEO of Postal today by Dennis Kelly, the CEO of Postal Analytics. How are you doing, Dennis? Analytics. How are you doing, Dennis? Analytics. How are you doing, Dennis? >> Doing great, James. It's great to be on >> Doing great, James. It's great to be on >> Doing great, James. It's great to be on today. today. today. >> I'm really [clears throat] excited. You >> I'm really [clears throat] excited. You >> I'm really [clears throat] excited. You know, a couple of months ago, I I took know, a couple of months ago, I I took know, a couple of months ago, I I took part in in your podcast over at Postal part in in your podcast over at Postal part in in your podcast over at Postal Analytics and just had a blast. And I Analytics and just had a blast. And I Analytics and just had a blast. And I know that we were talking a lot about uh know that we were talking a lot about uh know that we were talking a lot about uh about about The Office and and my about about The Office and and my about about The Office and and my obsession with with memes and and gifts obsession with with memes and and gifts obsession with with memes and and gifts from from the show. Um [laughter] from from the show. Um [laughter] from from the show. Um [laughter] but it kind of led into this but it kind of led into this but it kind of led into this conversation about sort of um the conversation about sort of um the conversation about sort of um the journey of post analytics and and sort journey of post analytics and and sort journey of post analytics and and sort of talking a bit about Hunter and and of talking a bit about Hunter and and of talking a bit about Hunter and and the role of cold email and direct mail the role of cold email and direct mail the role of cold email and direct mail and you know really having a a multi- and you know really having a a multi- and you know really having a a multi- channelannel approach to to outreach and channelannel approach to to outreach and channelannel approach to to outreach and I just wanted to invite you on to the I just wanted to invite you on to the I just wanted to invite you on to the show because I think that you have a show because I think that you have a show because I think that you have a really interesting story um and I'm I'm really interesting story um and I'm I'm really interesting story um and I'm I'm excited for you to be able to share that excited for you to be able to share that excited for you to be able to share that with everyone today. Well, thank you.

with everyone today. Well, thank you. with everyone today. Well, thank you. And and if I can, you know, um exceed And and if I can, you know, um exceed And and if I can, you know, um exceed Michael Scott's leadership uh Michael Scott's leadership uh Michael Scott's leadership uh capabilities capabilities capabilities at least to present that information to at least to present that information to at least to present that information to the audience, I I'll be very happy the audience, I I'll be very happy the audience, I I'll be very happy today. today. today. [laughter] [laughter] [laughter] >> So, so um so something we'd like to >> So, so um so something we'd like to >> So, so um so something we'd like to start off with, Dennis, it's it's a bit start off with, Dennis, it's it's a bit start off with, Dennis, it's it's a bit of a sort of like a a soft way to get of a sort of like a a soft way to get of a sort of like a a soft way to get into the conversation. And you know, one into the conversation. And you know, one into the conversation. And you know, one of the things I've been looking at of the things I've been looking at of the things I've been looking at recently is is some survey data that we recently is is some survey data that we recently is is some survey data that we we conducted a survey um a couple of we conducted a survey um a couple of we conducted a survey um a couple of weeks ago and it was all around multi- weeks ago and it was all around multi- weeks ago and it was all around multi- channelannel. And it turns out that with channelannel. And it turns out that with channelannel. And it turns out that with multi- channelannel when you have more multi- channelannel when you have more multi- channelannel when you have more than one channel that you're using, so than one channel that you're using, so than one channel that you're using, so whether that's cold email or or direct whether that's cold email or or direct whether that's cold email or or direct mail, you almost double your success mail, you almost double your success mail, you almost double your success rate in terms of outreach, in terms of rate in terms of outreach, in terms of rate in terms of outreach, in terms of lead generation. How do you feel about lead generation. How do you feel about lead generation. How do you feel about the role of direct mail in a marketing the role of direct mail in a marketing the role of direct mail in a marketing mix in in 2026? Like how do you like how mix in in 2026? Like how do you like how mix in in 2026? Like how do you like how important do you think having something important do you think having something important do you think having something like direct mail is in the mix? Well, I like direct mail is in the mix? Well, I like direct mail is in the mix? Well, I think for certain industries and use think for certain industries and use think for certain industries and use cases, uh, direct mail can be very cases, uh, direct mail can be very cases, uh, direct mail can be very important and it can important and it can important and it can add a differentiated touch to a multi- add a differentiated touch to a multi- add a differentiated touch to a multi- channelannel or an omni channel channelannel or an omni channel channelannel or an omni channel marketing strategy.

marketing strategy. marketing strategy. You know, we are all faced with You know, we are all faced with You know, we are all faced with overwhelmingly crowded email boxes. overwhelmingly crowded email boxes. overwhelmingly crowded email boxes. Uh, We all are mass deleting emails, Uh, We all are mass deleting emails, Uh, We all are mass deleting emails, hundreds of emails a day. Uh our our hundreds of emails a day. Uh our our hundreds of emails a day. Uh our our spam filters are working overtime to spam filters are working overtime to spam filters are working overtime to separate uh emails into different separate uh emails into different separate uh emails into different folders of ours. Um and and we're folders of ours. Um and and we're folders of ours. Um and and we're bombarded with digital ads, digital bombarded with digital ads, digital bombarded with digital ads, digital messages from a million different messages from a million different messages from a million different sources. And and so uh one of the things sources. And and so uh one of the things sources. And and so uh one of the things that direct mail can do because the that direct mail can do because the that direct mail can do because the physical mailbox is a little less physical mailbox is a little less physical mailbox is a little less crowded than it used to be is that it it crowded than it used to be is that it it crowded than it used to be is that it it can offer uh the marketer a chance to can offer uh the marketer a chance to can offer uh the marketer a chance to connect directly with an individual connect directly with an individual connect directly with an individual uh in a way that is tangible and uh in a way that is tangible and uh in a way that is tangible and different than the strategies that the different than the strategies that the different than the strategies that the vast majority of marketers and sales vast majority of marketers and sales vast majority of marketers and sales people are following. And so, uh, you people are following. And so, uh, you people are following. And so, uh, you know, as a as as a standalone marketing know, as a as as a standalone marketing know, as a as as a standalone marketing channel, it has effectiveness and it can channel, it has effectiveness and it can channel, it has effectiveness and it can do things, uh, for folks. Uh, but we do things, uh, for folks. Uh, but we do things, uh, for folks. Uh, but we find the same thing that when used in find the same thing that when used in find the same thing that when used in combination with email, with text combination with email, with text combination with email, with text messaging, with digital ads, uh, direct

messaging, with digital ads, uh, direct messaging, with digital ads, uh, direct mail has a multiplying effect. mail has a multiplying effect. mail has a multiplying effect. uh and it will often trigger a memory of uh and it will often trigger a memory of uh and it will often trigger a memory of something that was seen previously. something that was seen previously. something that was seen previously. Uh there's a lot of research uh that has Uh there's a lot of research uh that has Uh there's a lot of research uh that has been done around the way that our brains been done around the way that our brains been done around the way that our brains process process process various types of media various types of media various types of media and there's very clear evidence that and there's very clear evidence that and there's very clear evidence that when there are multiple senses that are when there are multiple senses that are when there are multiple senses that are associated with associated with associated with uh with addressing a particular ad or uh with addressing a particular ad or uh with addressing a particular ad or message. uh then there's a far higher message. uh then there's a far higher message. uh then there's a far higher recall recall recall and a deeper penetration of that message and a deeper penetration of that message and a deeper penetration of that message and that brand in our brains and that brand in our brains and that brand in our brains and and so direct mail is a scalable and and so direct mail is a scalable and and so direct mail is a scalable model uh has a scalable way of of model uh has a scalable way of of model uh has a scalable way of of letting you reach out and connect in letting you reach out and connect in letting you reach out and connect in that tangible way uh that can both that tangible way uh that can both that tangible way uh that can both reinforce messages that are being seen reinforce messages that are being seen reinforce messages that are being seen in other channels as well as in other channels as well as in other channels as well as introducing people into a concept that introducing people into a concept that introducing people into a concept that perhaps then gets um built out over perhaps then gets um built out over perhaps then gets um built out over other channels over time. And so uh we other channels over time. And so uh we other channels over time. And so uh we see a lot of this. It's see a lot of this. It's see a lot of this. It's a large part of the reason why we a large part of the reason why we a large part of the reason why we created postalytics was to facilitate created postalytics was to facilitate created postalytics was to facilitate an easier way to manage direct mail as a an easier way to manage direct mail as a an easier way to manage direct mail as a part of a multi- channelannel strategy.

part of a multi- channelannel strategy. part of a multi- channelannel strategy. >> Yeah, I I love what what you guys are >> Yeah, I I love what what you guys are >> Yeah, I I love what what you guys are doing. you know, in in a previous life doing. you know, in in a previous life doing. you know, in in a previous life when I was the uh when I was the when I was the uh when I was the when I was the uh when I was the marketing manager at a at a telecom a marketing manager at a at a telecom a marketing manager at a at a telecom a B2B telecom business back in England, um B2B telecom business back in England, um B2B telecom business back in England, um we ran a golden ticket competition and we ran a golden ticket competition and we ran a golden ticket competition and it combined direct mail with cold it combined direct mail with cold it combined direct mail with cold calling with cold email with display ads calling with cold email with display ads calling with cold email with display ads and and a little bit of doortodoor and and a little bit of doortodoor and and a little bit of doortodoor canvasing and what you're saying there canvasing and what you're saying there canvasing and what you're saying there in terms of just like engaging like in terms of just like engaging like in terms of just like engaging like different sensories being engaged like different sensories being engaged like different sensories being engaged like that is a perfect example for me where I that is a perfect example for me where I that is a perfect example for me where I can go yes exactly like what you're can go yes exactly like what you're can go yes exactly like what you're saying absolutely is true because we saying absolutely is true because we saying absolutely is true because we tried some of these campaigns using just tried some of these campaigns using just tried some of these campaigns using just one or two channels that didn't involve one or two channels that didn't involve one or two channels that didn't involve direct mail and that didn't involve direct mail and that didn't involve direct mail and that didn't involve door-to-door canvasing. And I'm not door-to-door canvasing. And I'm not door-to-door canvasing. And I'm not saying for every person that's listening saying for every person that's listening saying for every person that's listening today that's something that maybe is today that's something that maybe is today that's something that maybe is applicable to you. But the principle applicable to you. But the principle applicable to you. But the principle here is that when you can run multiple here is that when you can run multiple here is that when you can run multiple channels at the same time, you build up channels at the same time, you build up channels at the same time, you build up this sort of halo effect. you build up this sort of halo effect. you build up this sort of halo effect. you build up this presence that you know let's let's this presence that you know let's let's this presence that you know let's let's be honest whether we are targeting SMBs be honest whether we are targeting SMBs be honest whether we are targeting SMBs where it's six to nine touch points or where it's six to nine touch points or where it's six to nine touch points or if you're targeting the enterprise and I if you're targeting the enterprise and I if you're targeting the enterprise and I think Gartner recently talked about think Gartner recently talked about think Gartner recently talked about needing 39 plus touch points needing 39 plus touch points needing 39 plus touch points >> wow you should be considering every >> wow you should be considering every >> wow you should be considering every channel that's available to you and um channel that's available to you and um channel that's available to you and um needless to say the uh the golden ticket needless to say the uh the golden ticket needless to say the uh the golden ticket idea was probably one of my cheesiest idea was probably one of my cheesiest idea was probably one of my cheesiest ideas that I had and I can't give credit ideas that I had and I can't give credit ideas that I had and I can't give credit to myself it it goes to a certain and to myself it it goes to a certain and to myself it it goes to a certain and Willy Wonka.

Willy Wonka. Willy Wonka. >> Exactly. Well, [laughter] uh I I think >> Exactly. Well, [laughter] uh I I think >> Exactly. Well, [laughter] uh I I think everybody though has deepened their the everybody though has deepened their the everybody though has deepened their the recesses of their memory, fond Willy recesses of their memory, fond Willy recesses of their memory, fond Willy Wonka memories. So, I think it was it Wonka memories. So, I think it was it Wonka memories. So, I think it was it was a a brilliant stroke on your part. was a a brilliant stroke on your part. was a a brilliant stroke on your part. The whole point of of Out Fox is to The whole point of of Out Fox is to The whole point of of Out Fox is to really to help our listeners to to kind really to help our listeners to to kind really to help our listeners to to kind of understand that they're not alone. A of understand that they're not alone. A of understand that they're not alone. A lot of the podcasts in this space, lot of the podcasts in this space, lot of the podcasts in this space, Dennis, I'm sure you sense this too, Dennis, I'm sure you sense this too, Dennis, I'm sure you sense this too, they like to talk about the pie in the they like to talk about the pie in the they like to talk about the pie in the sky, they like to talk about everything sky, they like to talk about everything sky, they like to talk about everything being sort of perfect through rose being sort of perfect through rose being sort of perfect through rose tinted glasses. And that creates this tinted glasses. And that creates this tinted glasses. And that creates this perception that if you follow these perception that if you follow these perception that if you follow these five, you know, these five hacks or if five, you know, these five hacks or if five, you know, these five hacks or if you send 10,000 emails today, you can you send 10,000 emails today, you can you send 10,000 emails today, you can build a, you know, a $10 million build a, you know, a $10 million build a, you know, a $10 million pipeline in in 24 hours. Like, that's pipeline in in 24 hours. Like, that's pipeline in in 24 hours. Like, that's that's not the point about Fox. The that's not the point about Fox. The that's not the point about Fox. The point about Fox is to get people like point about Fox is to get people like point about Fox is to get people like yourself down as someone who's founded a yourself down as someone who's founded a yourself down as someone who's founded a business and gone through a journey to business and gone through a journey to business and gone through a journey to the point where it's successful and to the point where it's successful and to the point where it's successful and to hear about how they've done that. And so hear about how they've done that. And so hear about how they've done that. And so there's no better place to start than there's no better place to start than there's no better place to start than asking you this really simple question asking you this really simple question asking you this really simple question that does evade some people as well when that does evade some people as well when that does evade some people as well when they're asking about their business. Who they're asking about their business. Who they're asking about their business. Who is your ideal buyer? And and how did you is your ideal buyer? And and how did you is your ideal buyer? And and how did you get to the point of understanding that get to the point of understanding that get to the point of understanding that ideal buyer?

ideal buyer? ideal buyer? Well, uh I think that uh for those who Well, uh I think that uh for those who Well, uh I think that uh for those who are um interested in several bullets and are um interested in several bullets and are um interested in several bullets and hacks that will instantly create $10 hacks that will instantly create $10 hacks that will instantly create $10 million businesses, uh uh I don't have a million businesses, uh uh I don't have a million businesses, uh uh I don't have a lot to add because it's certainly not lot to add because it's certainly not lot to add because it's certainly not been my experience. [laughter] been my experience. [laughter] been my experience. [laughter] I've only experienced a lot of pain and I've only experienced a lot of pain and I've only experienced a lot of pain and hard work in order to get there. So, uh hard work in order to get there. So, uh hard work in order to get there. So, uh that's that's all I have to offer today. that's that's all I have to offer today. that's that's all I have to offer today. [laughter] [laughter] [laughter] So So So but um you know at at postalytics we but um you know at at postalytics we but um you know at at postalytics we have evolved uh significantly uh as a have evolved uh significantly uh as a have evolved uh significantly uh as a business uh today uh we identify uh our business uh today uh we identify uh our business uh today uh we identify uh our ideal customer as organizations that are ideal customer as organizations that are ideal customer as organizations that are uh we'll we'll we'll call them tech- uh we'll we'll we'll call them tech- uh we'll we'll we'll call them tech- enabled SMBs enabled SMBs enabled SMBs uh through mid-market uh sized uh through mid-market uh sized uh through mid-market uh sized organizations. ations and uh the organizations. ations and uh the organizations. ations and uh the majority of our marketing sales efforts majority of our marketing sales efforts majority of our marketing sales efforts are being devoted to developing these are being devoted to developing these are being devoted to developing these audiences.

audiences. audiences. uh we have uh verticalized our go to uh we have uh verticalized our go to uh we have uh verticalized our go to market approach and so uh we h are our market approach and so uh we h are our market approach and so uh we h are our are focused very much on are focused very much on are focused very much on uh developing we'll call them pods of of uh developing we'll call them pods of of uh developing we'll call them pods of of personnel and expertise in particular personnel and expertise in particular personnel and expertise in particular industries uh that are able to take industries uh that are able to take industries uh that are able to take direct mail which you know in its direct mail which you know in its direct mail which you know in its essence is a very horizontal platform essence is a very horizontal platform essence is a very horizontal platform Right. It's it's it's like email, you Right. It's it's it's like email, you Right. It's it's it's like email, you know, it's something that every business know, it's something that every business know, it's something that every business in the world could use. Uh and and you in the world could use. Uh and and you in the world could use. Uh and and you know, you could argue should use to some know, you could argue should use to some know, you could argue should use to some extent. Um, [clears throat] taking that extent. Um, [clears throat] taking that extent. Um, [clears throat] taking that very horizontal set of messages around very horizontal set of messages around very horizontal set of messages around things that we do more efficiently and things that we do more efficiently and things that we do more efficiently and better than traditional direct mail and better than traditional direct mail and better than traditional direct mail and then narrowing them down into then narrowing them down into then narrowing them down into use cases that are meaningful for large use cases that are meaningful for large use cases that are meaningful for large numbers of people within an industry.

numbers of people within an industry. numbers of people within an industry. And you know, at the end of the day, uh, And you know, at the end of the day, uh, And you know, at the end of the day, uh, you know, we're selling to marketers, you know, we're selling to marketers, you know, we're selling to marketers, we're selling to marketing managers, we're selling to marketing managers, we're selling to marketing managers, directors of marketing, vice presidents, directors of marketing, vice presidents, directors of marketing, vice presidents, CMOs, and their concerns are really CMOs, and their concerns are really CMOs, and their concerns are really different and and the their words, their different and and the their words, their different and and the their words, their language, their the types of campaigns language, their the types of campaigns language, their the types of campaigns they run, you know, are very different. they run, you know, are very different. they run, you know, are very different. you know, we do a lot in telco you know, we do a lot in telco you know, we do a lot in telco uh with ISPs and and uh that type of uh with ISPs and and uh that type of uh with ISPs and and uh that type of company. Then we also do a lot in company. Then we also do a lot in company. Then we also do a lot in healthcare. healthcare. healthcare. There could not be two more different There could not be two more different There could not be two more different industries, right? And their concerns industries, right? And their concerns industries, right? And their concerns and their pain points and the things and their pain points and the things and their pain points and the things that they're trying to accomplish, that they're trying to accomplish, that they're trying to accomplish, right? So yeah right? So yeah right? So yeah >> uh so what we've learned is that you >> uh so what we've learned is that you >> uh so what we've learned is that you know from for us to be successful in know from for us to be successful in know from for us to be successful in these customer segments we've sort of these customer segments we've sort of these customer segments we've sort of had to verticalize uh our go to market had to verticalize uh our go to market had to verticalize uh our go to market approach a bit more than what we had approach a bit more than what we had approach a bit more than what we had thought of in the beginning thought of in the beginning thought of in the beginning >> um and we've had quite a quite a lot of >> um and we've had quite a quite a lot of >> um and we've had quite a quite a lot of evolution in order to get to that this evolution in order to get to that this evolution in order to get to that this point as well.

point as well. point as well. >> Right. >> Right. >> Right. I I love that you you have verticalized. I I love that you you have verticalized. I I love that you you have verticalized. One of the hardest things to do in any One of the hardest things to do in any One of the hardest things to do in any organization as a marketer is to have organization as a marketer is to have organization as a marketer is to have the conversation with the founder that the conversation with the founder that the conversation with the founder that the messaging right now is too the messaging right now is too the messaging right now is too horizontal. Could you talk to us a horizontal. Could you talk to us a horizontal. Could you talk to us a little bit about this process of how you little bit about this process of how you little bit about this process of how you identify the need to verticalize and identify the need to verticalize and identify the need to verticalize and then what that actually looks like in in then what that actually looks like in in then what that actually looks like in in practice, Dennis? practice, Dennis? practice, Dennis? >> Yeah. Yeah, of course. >> Yeah. Yeah, of course. >> Yeah. Yeah, of course. When we launched Postalytics back in When we launched Postalytics back in When we launched Postalytics back in 2017, 2017, 2017, we launched it we launched it we launched it as a horizontal platform. We had no as a horizontal platform. We had no as a horizontal platform. We had no thoughts or intentions of verticalizing. thoughts or intentions of verticalizing. thoughts or intentions of verticalizing. Uh the notion was this is Mailchimp for Uh the notion was this is Mailchimp for Uh the notion was this is Mailchimp for direct mail, right? And so we were direct mail, right? And so we were direct mail, right? And so we were targeting small business uh premium targeting small business uh premium targeting small business uh premium model uh and entirely a productled model uh and entirely a productled model uh and entirely a productled growth uh style of company and and it growth uh style of company and and it growth uh style of company and and it was successful and and it grew and we uh was successful and and it grew and we uh was successful and and it grew and we uh we attached ourselves very closely to we attached ourselves very closely to we attached ourselves very closely to HubSpot in the beginning. Uh we built HubSpot in the beginning. Uh we built HubSpot in the beginning. Uh we built the first direct mail integration into the first direct mail integration into the first direct mail integration into HubSpot. Uh and really through a lot of HubSpot. Uh and really through a lot of HubSpot. Uh and really through a lot of our marketing efforts at the HubSpot our marketing efforts at the HubSpot our marketing efforts at the HubSpot customer base, we uh we uh launched the customer base, we uh we uh launched the customer base, we uh we uh launched the product at inbound.

product at inbound. product at inbound. uh we you know we're very very active uh we you know we're very very active uh we you know we're very very active and still are very active in the HubSpot and still are very active in the HubSpot and still are very active in the HubSpot ecosystem ecosystem ecosystem and you know even in 2017 HubSpot was a and you know even in 2017 HubSpot was a and you know even in 2017 HubSpot was a very large company and you know is very very large company and you know is very very large company and you know is very much a horizontal platform for marketing much a horizontal platform for marketing much a horizontal platform for marketing automation and CRM and other things now automation and CRM and other things now automation and CRM and other things now and so just by putting ourselves out and so just by putting ourselves out and so just by putting ourselves out there in that community we were able to there in that community we were able to there in that community we were able to attract a wide variety of of customers attract a wide variety of of customers attract a wide variety of of customers um various sizes and um various sizes and um various sizes and in in every vertical under the sun. Uh in in every vertical under the sun. Uh in in every vertical under the sun. Uh and and so we start off swimmingly uh and and so we start off swimmingly uh and and so we start off swimmingly uh you know with this type of model and and you know with this type of model and and you know with this type of model and and we're seeing early signs we're going to we're seeing early signs we're going to we're seeing early signs we're going to be the Mailchimp of direct mail. Um and be the Mailchimp of direct mail. Um and be the Mailchimp of direct mail. Um and and then you know after a couple of and then you know after a couple of and then you know after a couple of years years years we started to see that there were some we started to see that there were some we started to see that there were some uh patterns emerging in the customer uh patterns emerging in the customer uh patterns emerging in the customer base of some industries that were doing base of some industries that were doing base of some industries that were doing uh the same thing over and over again uh the same thing over and over again uh the same thing over and over again uh in terms of the types of campaigns uh in terms of the types of campaigns uh in terms of the types of campaigns they're running and and then they're they're running and and then they're they're running and and then they're scaling within the platform and and scaling within the platform and and scaling within the platform and and sending a lot more mail and you know at sending a lot more mail and you know at sending a lot more mail and you know at the end of the day our business model is the end of the day our business model is the end of the day our business model is really a usage based model and so the really a usage based model and so the really a usage based model and so the more direct mail that you send uh we do more direct mail that you send uh we do more direct mail that you send uh we do better and and so we it became apparent better and and so we it became apparent better and and so we it became apparent that we ought to start studying these that we ought to start studying these that we ought to start studying these collections of use cases uh which led to

collections of use cases uh which led to collections of use cases uh which led to the realization the realization the realization that the more sophisticated marketers in that the more sophisticated marketers in that the more sophisticated marketers in the kind of upper end of the SMB segment the kind of upper end of the SMB segment the kind of upper end of the SMB segment through the midmarket, we're really through the midmarket, we're really through the midmarket, we're really utilizing the platform to solve utilizing the platform to solve utilizing the platform to solve similar pain points in the same similar pain points in the same similar pain points in the same industry. And so, you know, the the use industry. And so, you know, the the use industry. And so, you know, the the use case, the the the sales conversations case, the the the sales conversations case, the the the sales conversations uh were were lining up and and they're uh were were lining up and and they're uh were were lining up and and they're very very similar. very very similar. very very similar. And and so that's really what led us to And and so that's really what led us to And and so that's really what led us to have an understanding that one have an understanding that one have an understanding that one interesting way to scale that would be interesting way to scale that would be interesting way to scale that would be different than perhaps some of the other different than perhaps some of the other different than perhaps some of the other companies in our segment that we compete companies in our segment that we compete companies in our segment that we compete with would be to with would be to with would be to uh think about the product as a uh think about the product as a uh think about the product as a platform. There's a platform layer of platform. There's a platform layer of platform. There's a platform layer of execution execution execution uh and fulfillment from a a printing and uh and fulfillment from a a printing and uh and fulfillment from a a printing and postage management standpoint. A lot of postage management standpoint. A lot of postage management standpoint. A lot of very you know common things across all very you know common things across all very you know common things across all use cases. And then to really refine our use cases. And then to really refine our use cases. And then to really refine our go to market approach to um narrow the go to market approach to um narrow the go to market approach to um narrow the focus of groups of people within the focus of groups of people within the focus of groups of people within the organization to start organization to start organization to start um you know uh building out a deeper um you know uh building out a deeper um you know uh building out a deeper relationship with the industry.

relationship with the industry. relationship with the industry. And by doing that we mean well who are And by doing that we mean well who are And by doing that we mean well who are other players other players other players in the ecosystems within a particular in the ecosystems within a particular in the ecosystems within a particular industry. industry. industry. Who are the agencies Who are the agencies Who are the agencies that have gotten that have specialized that have gotten that have specialized that have gotten that have specialized and have really developed strong and have really developed strong and have really developed strong networks and and deep understanding of networks and and deep understanding of networks and and deep understanding of the pain points and the use cases for the pain points and the use cases for the pain points and the use cases for different marketing channels within the different marketing channels within the different marketing channels within the industry. and then going out and industry. and then going out and industry. and then going out and building relationships and being building relationships and being building relationships and being sponsoring events and and you know being sponsoring events and and you know being sponsoring events and and you know being present in the communities that that are present in the communities that that are present in the communities that that are built up around vertical industries. built up around vertical industries. built up around vertical industries. And so, you know, that's really been the And so, you know, that's really been the And so, you know, that's really been the evolution of of the organization to sort evolution of of the organization to sort evolution of of the organization to sort of think of ourselves. We still are that of think of ourselves. We still are that of think of ourselves. We still are that horizontal platform but uh but but horizontal platform but uh but but horizontal platform but uh but but there's a level of abstraction between there's a level of abstraction between there's a level of abstraction between the execution engine that is uh the execution engine that is uh the execution engine that is uh underlying our you know more specific underlying our you know more specific underlying our you know more specific and and vertically oriented uh go to and and vertically oriented uh go to and and vertically oriented uh go to market approach.

market approach. market approach. >> I love what you you're saying there >> I love what you you're saying there >> I love what you you're saying there Dennis. I think that the reason why I Dennis. I think that the reason why I Dennis. I think that the reason why I said that that that's a tough said that that that's a tough said that that that's a tough conversation that I've tried to face so conversation that I've tried to face so conversation that I've tried to face so many times with founders is that it is a many times with founders is that it is a many times with founders is that it is a really tough choice to make, right? This really tough choice to make, right? This really tough choice to make, right? This idea that you go from potentially having idea that you go from potentially having idea that you go from potentially having this massive scope to this really tiny this massive scope to this really tiny this massive scope to this really tiny scope tiny, you know, it's relative. scope tiny, you know, it's relative. scope tiny, you know, it's relative. But, you know, the the the thing that we But, you know, the the the thing that we But, you know, the the the thing that we talked about at the top of the show was talked about at the top of the show was talked about at the top of the show was that Outf Fox is not about theory. Well, that Outf Fox is not about theory. Well, that Outf Fox is not about theory. Well, the theory here clearly is is well the theory here clearly is is well the theory here clearly is is well written. You know, it's crossing the written. You know, it's crossing the written. You know, it's crossing the chasm. It's this idea that you should be chasm. It's this idea that you should be chasm. It's this idea that you should be able to um find a network that you can able to um find a network that you can able to um find a network that you can then scale from early early adopters then scale from early early adopters then scale from early early adopters through to an early majority. But you've through to an early majority. But you've through to an early majority. But you've actually done this like you've actually actually done this like you've actually actually done this like you've actually done this with post litics. You've done this with post litics. You've done this with post litics. You've understood the verticals that that are understood the verticals that that are understood the verticals that that are really resonating and and you've been really resonating and and you've been really resonating and and you've been able to build tool with those verticals. able to build tool with those verticals. able to build tool with those verticals. But that's a sort of open-mindedness But that's a sort of open-mindedness But that's a sort of open-mindedness that makes me wonder something that you that makes me wonder something that you that makes me wonder something that you know we've asked Ran Fishkin in a know we've asked Ran Fishkin in a know we've asked Ran Fishkin in a previous episode and I would love to ask previous episode and I would love to ask previous episode and I would love to ask you Dennis. Have you had to pivot the you Dennis. Have you had to pivot the you Dennis. Have you had to pivot the the business at any point? And if you the business at any point? And if you the business at any point? And if you have, like, what did that look like? Why have, like, what did that look like? Why have, like, what did that look like? Why did that come about?

did that come about? did that come about? >> Well, perhaps the open-mindedness was a >> Well, perhaps the open-mindedness was a >> Well, perhaps the open-mindedness was a forced uh crowbar stuck into the side of forced uh crowbar stuck into the side of forced uh crowbar stuck into the side of my head and ripped open because of the my head and ripped open because of the my head and ripped open because of the pain being experienced in an initial pain being experienced in an initial pain being experienced in an initial version of this thing. And uh so uh we version of this thing. And uh so uh we version of this thing. And uh so uh we have adapted significantly have adapted significantly have adapted significantly uh and and I think th those experiences uh and and I think th those experiences uh and and I think th those experiences when when you do experience the pain when when you do experience the pain when when you do experience the pain associated with a pretty drastic pivot, associated with a pretty drastic pivot, associated with a pretty drastic pivot, it opens up your mind a bit more to more it opens up your mind a bit more to more it opens up your mind a bit more to more of a continual refinement of strategy. of a continual refinement of strategy. of a continual refinement of strategy. So So So prior to postalytics, my partner and I had launched a company my partner and I had launched a company called Boinget. called Boinget. called Boinget. It was a It was a It was a evolution of a side project that my evolution of a side project that my evolution of a side project that my technical co-founder had built and it technical co-founder had built and it technical co-founder had built and it was in the direct mail space.

was in the direct mail space. was in the direct mail space. uh and and uh it rather than replacing uh and and uh it rather than replacing uh and and uh it rather than replacing the current direct mail process with a the current direct mail process with a the current direct mail process with a techbased solution, it was a tech that techbased solution, it was a tech that techbased solution, it was a tech that could be inserted into the traditional could be inserted into the traditional could be inserted into the traditional direct mail process direct mail process direct mail process typically by a commercial printer typically by a commercial printer typically by a commercial printer that was that was that was trying to offer additional marketing trying to offer additional marketing trying to offer additional marketing services, which many of them do. services, which many of them do. services, which many of them do. And so that original product was aimed And so that original product was aimed And so that original product was aimed to provide these commercial printers, to provide these commercial printers, to provide these commercial printers, uh, direct mail agencies and other uh, direct mail agencies and other uh, direct mail agencies and other players in the, uh, legacy direct mail players in the, uh, legacy direct mail players in the, uh, legacy direct mail ecosystem tools to offer digital ecosystem tools to offer digital ecosystem tools to offer digital marketing components marketing components marketing components that augmented their direct mail that augmented their direct mail that augmented their direct mail capabilities so that they could be the capabilities so that they could be the capabilities so that they could be the providers of omni channel or multi- providers of omni channel or multi- providers of omni channel or multi- channelannel marketing strategies.

channelannel marketing strategies. channelannel marketing strategies. And so we built a product that um And so we built a product that um And so we built a product that um enabled enabled enabled uh the offline to online ramp with QR uh the offline to online ramp with QR uh the offline to online ramp with QR codes and personalized URLs, uh landing codes and personalized URLs, uh landing codes and personalized URLs, uh landing page tools where personalization could page tools where personalization could page tools where personalization could be layered in um uh email marketing, be layered in um uh email marketing, be layered in um uh email marketing, text messaging that could all surround text messaging that could all surround text messaging that could all surround the data set being used to drive a the data set being used to drive a the data set being used to drive a direct mail campaign. And the thinking direct mail campaign. And the thinking direct mail campaign. And the thinking was well you know we got some really was well you know we got some really was well you know we got some really great feedback from some early great feedback from some early great feedback from some early customers. Uh we got picked up by customers. Uh we got picked up by customers. Uh we got picked up by Chrysler in a deal very early. So there Chrysler in a deal very early. So there Chrysler in a deal very early. So there a lot of really positive signals around a lot of really positive signals around a lot of really positive signals around this model this model this model and but as we started to add staff and and but as we started to add staff and and but as we started to add staff and started to spend money started to spend money started to spend money um we were seeing that that the sales um we were seeing that that the sales um we were seeing that that the sales cycles were dragging on and they were cycles were dragging on and they were cycles were dragging on and they were much much longer than what we had much much longer than what we had much much longer than what we had modeled or what we had anticipated modeled or what we had anticipated modeled or what we had anticipated in the middle of a martekch revolution in the middle of a martekch revolution in the middle of a martekch revolution say 2015 right like say 2015 right like say 2015 right like the Martekch thing is exploding.

the Martekch thing is exploding. the Martekch thing is exploding. We're trying to disrupt this legacy We're trying to disrupt this legacy We're trying to disrupt this legacy marketing channel through this approach marketing channel through this approach marketing channel through this approach and the the velocity of adoption and the the velocity of adoption and the the velocity of adoption both during the sales process and then both during the sales process and then both during the sales process and then post sale from an implementation post sale from an implementation post sale from an implementation standpoint. Uh that that velocity was standpoint. Uh that that velocity was standpoint. Uh that that velocity was just not matching anything that we were just not matching anything that we were just not matching anything that we were expecting. So, we're having problems, expecting. So, we're having problems, expecting. So, we're having problems, but well, there they're obvious but well, there they're obvious but well, there they're obvious solutions to problems. So, change solutions to problems. So, change solutions to problems. So, change messaging, change messaging, change messaging, change uh people, uh change uh people, uh change uh people, uh change some marketing strategies, some marketing strategies, some marketing strategies, uh sell the different segments. Um and uh sell the different segments. Um and uh sell the different segments. Um and nothing was really moving the needle. nothing was really moving the needle. nothing was really moving the needle. And so, you know, we were very And so, you know, we were very And so, you know, we were very frustrated. And frustrated. And frustrated. And uh along the way, we started to hear uh along the way, we started to hear uh along the way, we started to hear from from from small to mid-size businesses that had small to mid-size businesses that had small to mid-size businesses that had invested heavily in their CRM and invested heavily in their CRM and invested heavily in their CRM and marketing automation tools and they'd marketing automation tools and they'd marketing automation tools and they'd find us online because of some keywords find us online because of some keywords find us online because of some keywords and things that we were doing. And you and things that we were doing. And you and things that we were doing. And you know they would say hey you know you know they would say hey you know you know they would say hey you know you guys are kind of living in between guys are kind of living in between guys are kind of living in between the direct mail world and the digital the direct mail world and the digital the direct mail world and the digital world and you're providing all these world and you're providing all these world and you're providing all these tools you know can you make direct mail tools you know can you make direct mail tools you know can you make direct mail easier for us? you know, we've just easier for us? you know, we've just easier for us? you know, we've just invested all this time and money into invested all this time and money into invested all this time and money into building out Salesforce or HubSpot building out Salesforce or HubSpot building out Salesforce or HubSpot and we want to leverage our investment

and we want to leverage our investment and we want to leverage our investment in this channel, but the channel is in this channel, but the channel is in this channel, but the channel is being, you know, processed entirely being, you know, processed entirely being, you know, processed entirely offline offline offline through exporting and spreadsheeting and through exporting and spreadsheeting and through exporting and spreadsheeting and email and FTP and meetings with people email and FTP and meetings with people email and FTP and meetings with people and all this project management. it's and all this project management. it's and all this project management. it's completely disconnected from our completely disconnected from our completely disconnected from our investment. investment. investment. And and after hearing that a few times, And and after hearing that a few times, And and after hearing that a few times, it became very clear to us that it became very clear to us that it became very clear to us that we were attacking the wrong problem. That the the the problem That the the the problem of the legacy of the legacy of the legacy direct mail ecosystem direct mail ecosystem direct mail ecosystem was not the problem of the end user of was not the problem of the end user of was not the problem of the end user of direct mail. direct mail. direct mail. And while we were solving what we And while we were solving what we And while we were solving what we thought thought thought was would be the key problem to gain was would be the key problem to gain was would be the key problem to gain distribution, what we came to realize what we came to realize was that there's a reason why was that there's a reason why was that there's a reason why this channel hasn't adopted technology.

this channel hasn't adopted technology. this channel hasn't adopted technology. And it's not because of the end users. And it's not because of the end users. And it's not because of the end users. It's because of the legacy providers of It's because of the legacy providers of It's because of the legacy providers of direct mail that they, you know, they direct mail that they, you know, they direct mail that they, you know, they they were just not very good at adopting they were just not very good at adopting they were just not very good at adopting technology and rolling it out and technology and rolling it out and technology and rolling it out and selling something different. selling something different. selling something different. And so we thought, these are the guys we And so we thought, these are the guys we And so we thought, these are the guys we need to disrupt. Today's episode is need to disrupt. Today's episode is need to disrupt. Today's episode is brought to you by hunter.io, io the B2B brought to you by hunter.io, io the B2B brought to you by hunter.io, io the B2B lead generation platform made for lead generation platform made for lead generation platform made for [music] every professional. Whether it's [music] every professional. Whether it's [music] every professional. Whether it's prospecting, fundraising, recruiting, prospecting, fundraising, recruiting, prospecting, fundraising, recruiting, link building, or just trying to connect link building, or just trying to connect link building, or just trying to connect with the right people, Hunter makes it with the right people, Hunter makes it with the right people, Hunter makes it easy. I've spoken to hundreds of easy. I've spoken to hundreds of easy. I've spoken to hundreds of founders and in just in a research founders and in just in a research founders and in just in a research capacity and and something I found quite capacity and and something I found quite capacity and and something I found quite consistent is what you're describing consistent is what you're describing consistent is what you're describing here, which is that they think there's a here, which is that they think there's a here, which is that they think there's a problem and they had the right intent to problem and they had the right intent to problem and they had the right intent to think there was that problem. It wasn't think there was that problem. It wasn't think there was that problem. It wasn't an ego thing. They just thought that an ego thing. They just thought that an ego thing. They just thought that they there was a problem. But it wasn't they there was a problem. But it wasn't they there was a problem. But it wasn't until they went through a journey like until they went through a journey like until they went through a journey like you describing that they could actually you describing that they could actually you describing that they could actually get to realize that it was the wrong get to realize that it was the wrong get to realize that it was the wrong problem. Do you think this would have problem. Do you think this would have problem. Do you think this would have happened but for that growing pain happened but for that growing pain happened but for that growing pain period?

period? period? >> Uh certainly not with the mental >> Uh certainly not with the mental >> Uh certainly not with the mental processing power of this founder. Uh he processing power of this founder. Uh he processing power of this founder. Uh he had to go through the pain point had to go through the pain point had to go through the pain point [laughter] [laughter] [laughter] to in order to uh arrive here. Uh it it to in order to uh arrive here. Uh it it to in order to uh arrive here. Uh it it it it certainly was the logical it it certainly was the logical it it certainly was the logical conclusion at least from our perspective conclusion at least from our perspective conclusion at least from our perspective that that the uh the the folks that that that the uh the the folks that that that the uh the the folks that control 95% of the market would be the control 95% of the market would be the control 95% of the market would be the people to lead that market to the next people to lead that market to the next people to lead that market to the next step. step. step. Um, and only in retrospect could we Um, and only in retrospect could we Um, and only in retrospect could we understand that there were some understand that there were some understand that there were some fundamental reasons that had that fundamental reasons that had that fundamental reasons that had that created the problem in the first place created the problem in the first place created the problem in the first place for those people that uh and and that for those people that uh and and that for those people that uh and and that ultimately ultimately ultimately the existing traditional ecosystem was the existing traditional ecosystem was the existing traditional ecosystem was the thing that needed to be disrupted in the thing that needed to be disrupted in the thing that needed to be disrupted in order to order to order to really make direct mail uh a a an equal really make direct mail uh a a an equal really make direct mail uh a a an equal partner at the table uh in the the CRM partner at the table uh in the the CRM partner at the table uh in the the CRM and marketing automation tools and in in and marketing automation tools and in in and marketing automation tools and in in the you know multi- channelannel the you know multi- channelannel the you know multi- channelannel marketing world.

marketing world. marketing world. >> One of the things that stands out to me >> One of the things that stands out to me >> One of the things that stands out to me is obviously you went through this this is obviously you went through this this is obviously you went through this this phase um and and you had to grow and phase um and and you had to grow and phase um and and you had to grow and reflect and and change but then reflect and and change but then reflect and and change but then obviously you you you've launched Post obviously you you you've launched Post obviously you you you've launched Post Litics and you've you've completely it Litics and you've you've completely it Litics and you've you've completely it sounds like it's it's kind of kind of sounds like it's it's kind of kind of sounds like it's it's kind of kind of changed the trajectory. What is that? changed the trajectory. What is that? changed the trajectory. What is that? What was one lesson that you took from What was one lesson that you took from What was one lesson that you took from this whole experience that you think o this whole experience that you think o this whole experience that you think o if I could have talked to Dennis from if I could have talked to Dennis from if I could have talked to Dennis from you know 11 years ago I would have told you know 11 years ago I would have told you know 11 years ago I would have told him this? I think it all really boiled him this? I think it all really boiled him this? I think it all really boiled down for us to down for us to down for us to the the perspective of understanding the the perspective of understanding the the perspective of understanding early feedback early feedback early feedback and and and you know early quick wins you know early quick wins you know early quick wins are not necessarily a sign of anything. are not necessarily a sign of anything. are not necessarily a sign of anything. They they can be very random. They they can be very random. They they can be very random. And And And uh that you know the fact that uh that you know the fact that uh that you know the fact that you see a problem, you solve a problem you see a problem, you solve a problem you see a problem, you solve a problem and people buy it fairly quickly in and people buy it fairly quickly in and people buy it fairly quickly in small volumes.

small volumes. small volumes. does not necessarily translate to a does not necessarily translate to a does not necessarily translate to a business model that will grow for a long business model that will grow for a long business model that will grow for a long period of time to be a large business. period of time to be a large business. period of time to be a large business. And and while you can certainly And and while you can certainly And and while you can certainly extrapolate and make the case for that extrapolate and make the case for that extrapolate and make the case for that to happen with those early wins, uh I I to happen with those early wins, uh I I to happen with those early wins, uh I I would advise folks now to discount would advise folks now to discount would advise folks now to discount early wins and to take a a more measured early wins and to take a a more measured early wins and to take a a more measured and disciplined approach to and and and and disciplined approach to and and and and disciplined approach to and and and maybe more of a skeptical approach maybe more of a skeptical approach maybe more of a skeptical approach to to to uh the early success of a product uh the early success of a product uh the early success of a product and and and and and and and and and really start poking holes in it as best really start poking holes in it as best really start poking holes in it as best you can early on. It's so hard to do you can early on. It's so hard to do you can early on. It's so hard to do because of the emotion attached to the because of the emotion attached to the because of the emotion attached to the process of actually creating that first process of actually creating that first process of actually creating that first product, right? Uh so it's not an easy product, right? Uh so it's not an easy product, right? Uh so it's not an easy task task task but it could end up saving but it could end up saving but it could end up saving people a lot of time and money and people a lot of time and money and people a lot of time and money and heartache. Uh if uh you are able to heartache. Uh if uh you are able to heartache. Uh if uh you are able to identify identify identify um a uh that that early success may or um a uh that that early success may or um a uh that that early success may or may not be a good signal may not be a good signal may not be a good signal and and that uh you should reserve and and that uh you should reserve and and that uh you should reserve judgment on the thing that will actually

judgment on the thing that will actually judgment on the thing that will actually be the first real hook that your be the first real hook that your be the first real hook that your business can establish in a particular business can establish in a particular business can establish in a particular market. market. market. >> Sounds brilliant advice. There's one >> Sounds brilliant advice. There's one >> Sounds brilliant advice. There's one thing that I want to ask though. It is thing that I want to ask though. It is thing that I want to ask though. It is it is difficult I I think for founders it is difficult I I think for founders it is difficult I I think for founders to hear feedback that is not positive. to hear feedback that is not positive. to hear feedback that is not positive. But the only way you can get to feedback But the only way you can get to feedback But the only way you can get to feedback that's not positive is by asking the that's not positive is by asking the that's not positive is by asking the right questions. Like if you don't know right questions. Like if you don't know right questions. Like if you don't know how to ask the right questions in a in a how to ask the right questions in a in a how to ask the right questions in a in a user feedback session or you didn't user feedback session or you didn't user feedback session or you didn't close that deal and you just had like close that deal and you just had like close that deal and you just had like hey why like and you're trying to find hey why like and you're trying to find hey why like and you're trying to find out what what the reason is. If someone out what what the reason is. If someone out what what the reason is. If someone says to you, oh, you know, you were says to you, oh, you know, you were says to you, oh, you know, you were great, or we just chose no provider. great, or we just chose no provider. great, or we just chose no provider. Like, that's not enough. What is an Like, that's not enough. What is an Like, that's not enough. What is an example of a question along those lines example of a question along those lines example of a question along those lines where you were able to to to ask a where you were able to to to ask a where you were able to to to ask a question that got to the the real core question that got to the the real core question that got to the the real core of the issue about why of the issue about why of the issue about why um this original iteration of of Post um this original iteration of of Post um this original iteration of of Post Litics was not the right fit for for a Litics was not the right fit for for a Litics was not the right fit for for a buyer. So in in the original buyer. So in in the original buyer. So in in the original uh distribution model, we had uh distribution model, we had uh distribution model, we had uh really a two-step process.

uh really a two-step process. uh really a two-step process. We would sell the product into We would sell the product into We would sell the product into uh the organization uh the organization uh the organization uh typically executive level. Hey, we uh typically executive level. Hey, we uh typically executive level. Hey, we want to try something new in in our want to try something new in in our want to try something new in in our business. business. business. uh you know, we've got a good solution uh you know, we've got a good solution uh you know, we've got a good solution to help you uh try this out. Um and we to help you uh try this out. Um and we to help you uh try this out. Um and we you know, these every print service you know, these every print service you know, these every print service provider provider provider has felt the need to expand their has felt the need to expand their has felt the need to expand their offering, right? This for for a lot of offering, right? This for for a lot of offering, right? This for for a lot of obvious reasons. And so offering a obvious reasons. And so offering a obvious reasons. And so offering a digital a method to do that via digital digital a method to do that via digital digital a method to do that via digital means means means is attractive uh to folks that are is attractive uh to folks that are is attractive uh to folks that are running these organizations. running these organizations. running these organizations. The problem is that then in order for The problem is that then in order for The problem is that then in order for the product to actually take hold, the product to actually take hold, the product to actually take hold, their sales teams have to sell it. their sales teams have to sell it. their sales teams have to sell it. And so there was really not a problem And so there was really not a problem And so there was really not a problem selling to these organizations and selling to these organizations and selling to these organizations and getting them to buy in to the concept.

getting them to buy in to the concept. getting them to buy in to the concept. The problem ended up in the self through The problem ended up in the self through The problem ended up in the self through and and and uh and and what we didn't anticipate is uh and and what we didn't anticipate is uh and and what we didn't anticipate is that that that uh the industries's sales organizations uh the industries's sales organizations uh the industries's sales organizations are filled with veteran salespeople are filled with veteran salespeople are filled with veteran salespeople uh who are somewhat uh who are somewhat uh who are somewhat for lack of a better phrase free agents for lack of a better phrase free agents for lack of a better phrase free agents that that are pretty much straight that that are pretty much straight that that are pretty much straight commission sales sales people that will commission sales sales people that will commission sales sales people that will move from printer to printer, bring move from printer to printer, bring move from printer to printer, bring their book of business with them. their book of business with them. their book of business with them. And the appetite for And the appetite for And the appetite for massive change and selling something massive change and selling something massive change and selling something that is unfamiliar that is unfamiliar that is unfamiliar was very very low. and and so the the was very very low. and and so the the was very very low. and and so the the types of questions that we ended up types of questions that we ended up types of questions that we ended up getting to uh were really with the sales getting to uh were really with the sales getting to uh were really with the sales teams of these folks teams of these folks teams of these folks and and asking you know why is this not and and asking you know why is this not and and asking you know why is this not selling? Why what what is what are the selling? Why what what is what are the selling? Why what what is what are the the the friction points that you're the the friction points that you're the the friction points that you're getting in the sales process?

getting in the sales process? getting in the sales process? And really what we learned is that they And really what we learned is that they And really what we learned is that they had no interest at the end of the day. had no interest at the end of the day. had no interest at the end of the day. they just they just ignored it and they just they just ignored it and they just they just ignored it and really thought it was really thought it was really thought it was superficial and and not important to the superficial and and not important to the superficial and and not important to the objectives of those salespeople. objectives of those salespeople. objectives of those salespeople. uh and and so then that realization led uh and and so then that realization led uh and and so then that realization led us to understand that there's a us to understand that there's a us to understand that there's a fundamental problem with the business fundamental problem with the business fundamental problem with the business models and the distribution models and the distribution models and the distribution models of those organizations and it was models of those organizations and it was models of those organizations and it was a mistake to try to attach ourselves to a mistake to try to attach ourselves to a mistake to try to attach ourselves to them in the beginning. Uh and and so them in the beginning. Uh and and so them in the beginning. Uh and and so we had to we needed to ask questions of we had to we needed to ask questions of we had to we needed to ask questions of the people that would be actually the people that would be actually the people that would be actually selling the service and we didn't get selling the service and we didn't get selling the service and we didn't get there for quite some time. We didn't get there for quite some time. We didn't get there for quite some time. We didn't get down to that level and and start having down to that level and and start having down to that level and and start having those interactions until we were a those interactions until we were a those interactions until we were a couple of years in. But you did get to couple of years in. But you did get to couple of years in. But you did get to those questions and you did pivot. So those questions and you did pivot. So those questions and you did pivot. So that was sort of the old distribution that was sort of the old distribution that was sort of the old distribution model, the old way of kind of promoting model, the old way of kind of promoting model, the old way of kind of promoting and and and getting visibility for the and and and getting visibility for the and and and getting visibility for the product. Tell me about right now. What product. Tell me about right now. What product. Tell me about right now. What is the most effective channel that is the most effective channel that is the most effective channel that you're using right now to to grow post you're using right now to to grow post you're using right now to to grow post analytics in terms of the top of the analytics in terms of the top of the analytics in terms of the top of the funnel? Top of the funnel is no question funnel? Top of the funnel is no question funnel? Top of the funnel is no question it is still SEO.

it is still SEO. it is still SEO. uh in and you know we invested in SEO uh in and you know we invested in SEO uh in and you know we invested in SEO very heavily from day one very heavily from day one very heavily from day one uh with the notion that the other uh with the notion that the other uh with the notion that the other players in the industry who we were players in the industry who we were players in the industry who we were attempting to disrupt had almost zero attempting to disrupt had almost zero attempting to disrupt had almost zero investment in SEO and so it was a wide investment in SEO and so it was a wide investment in SEO and so it was a wide openen category uh for us uh we uh were openen category uh for us uh we uh were openen category uh for us uh we uh were able to establish able to establish able to establish uh some foundational content strategies uh some foundational content strategies uh some foundational content strategies and website work uh that have allowed us and website work uh that have allowed us and website work uh that have allowed us to build uh a a very strong presence in to build uh a a very strong presence in to build uh a a very strong presence in SEO and and you know those same SEO and and you know those same SEO and and you know those same processes seem to be working well in the processes seem to be working well in the processes seem to be working well in the LLM uh based um you know optimization LLM uh based um you know optimization LLM uh based um you know optimization that folks are you know worrying about that folks are you know worrying about that folks are you know worrying about now. Um, and so by far and away from the now. Um, and so by far and away from the now. Um, and so by far and away from the top of the funnel standpoint, that is top of the funnel standpoint, that is top of the funnel standpoint, that is has been and is our most effective has been and is our most effective has been and is our most effective channel. We use direct mail to augment channel. We use direct mail to augment channel. We use direct mail to augment uh inbound interest. And so if you were uh inbound interest. And so if you were uh inbound interest. And so if you were to to to connect with Postalytics connect with Postalytics connect with Postalytics and uh express some interest, we would and uh express some interest, we would and uh express some interest, we would do a bunch of work inside of our HubSpot do a bunch of work inside of our HubSpot do a bunch of work inside of our HubSpot instance and figure out, hey, you know, instance and figure out, hey, you know, instance and figure out, hey, you know, James is a is an ICP.

James is a is an ICP. James is a is an ICP. And so we're going to trigger a letter And so we're going to trigger a letter And so we're going to trigger a letter from Dennis the CEO to James the CMO uh from Dennis the CEO to James the CMO uh from Dennis the CEO to James the CMO uh that is personalized and is offering a that is personalized and is offering a that is personalized and is offering a highv value uh piece of content as a highv value uh piece of content as a highv value uh piece of content as a thank you for you know expressing thank you for you know expressing thank you for you know expressing interest and you know but you have to interest and you know but you have to interest and you know but you have to hit the QR code in order to do to access hit the QR code in order to do to access hit the QR code in order to do to access it and and then we're capturing that it and and then we're capturing that it and and then we're capturing that which is triggering off the next step in which is triggering off the next step in which is triggering off the next step in the journey. Uh so we do we use direct the journey. Uh so we do we use direct the journey. Uh so we do we use direct mail for use cases that are mail for use cases that are mail for use cases that are traditionally not used that direct mail traditionally not used that direct mail traditionally not used that direct mail is not used for. Uh it's uh and so uh is not used for. Uh it's uh and so uh is not used for. Uh it's uh and so uh then that it's a part of our stack and then that it's a part of our stack and then that it's a part of our stack and it's it's a tool uh within our stack but it's it's a tool uh within our stack but it's it's a tool uh within our stack but it's it's one of many. I think it's so it's it's one of many. I think it's so it's it's one of many. I think it's so important to drink your own champagne. I important to drink your own champagne. I important to drink your own champagne. I know people say eat your own dog food know people say eat your own dog food know people say eat your own dog food but we'll say drink your own champagne. but we'll say drink your own champagne. but we'll say drink your own champagne. We're getting a bit classy here. We're getting a bit classy here. We're getting a bit classy here. >> Um, it's so important to to drink your >> Um, it's so important to to drink your >> Um, it's so important to to drink your own champagne and what you're describing own champagne and what you're describing own champagne and what you're describing there, which to me sounds like a veto there, which to me sounds like a veto there, which to me sounds like a veto letter, which is like such a staple of a letter, which is like such a staple of a letter, which is like such a staple of a sales cycle, like to have that in your sales cycle, like to have that in your sales cycle, like to have that in your in your um in your nurturing cycle is is in your um in your nurturing cycle is is in your um in your nurturing cycle is is awesome. So, let's say that I bite, I awesome. So, let's say that I bite, I awesome. So, let's say that I bite, I reply, or sorry, I I scan the QR code, I reply, or sorry, I I scan the QR code, I reply, or sorry, I I scan the QR code, I get further into the funnel. Um, am I get further into the funnel. Um, am I get further into the funnel. Um, am I going to be talking to you at some going to be talking to you at some going to be talking to you at some point? Are you gonna be pitching me? How point? Are you gonna be pitching me? How point? Are you gonna be pitching me? How does that look?

does that look? does that look? >> You will be getting video content >> You will be getting video content >> You will be getting video content uh that features me uh as a part of the uh that features me uh as a part of the uh that features me uh as a part of the sequencing of messages that go out. Uh sequencing of messages that go out. Uh sequencing of messages that go out. Uh but you'll be hearing from a rep who has but you'll be hearing from a rep who has but you'll be hearing from a rep who has been assigned to the vertical that you been assigned to the vertical that you been assigned to the vertical that you are operating in. are operating in. are operating in. And that rep will be attempting to And that rep will be attempting to And that rep will be attempting to establish establish establish uh a relationship based on their uh a relationship based on their uh a relationship based on their understanding of the common pain points understanding of the common pain points understanding of the common pain points and use cases of the particular and use cases of the particular and use cases of the particular vertical. vertical. vertical. >> I love that. When we talk to founders um >> I love that. When we talk to founders um >> I love that. When we talk to founders um they're reluctant to say that they are they're reluctant to say that they are they're reluctant to say that they are salespeople or that they do any form of salespeople or that they do any form of salespeople or that they do any form of selling when they run outreach. selling when they run outreach. selling when they run outreach. Do you at any stage in the postitics Do you at any stage in the postitics Do you at any stage in the postitics journey have you considered yourself to journey have you considered yourself to journey have you considered yourself to be a salesperson? be a salesperson? be a salesperson? I am a salesperson. I am a salesperson. I am a salesperson. I always have been. I always have been. I always have been. It's my It was my initial job out of It's my It was my initial job out of It's my It was my initial job out of college. It was my initial track through college. It was my initial track through college. It was my initial track through the business world.

the business world. the business world. And and so And and so And and so I enjoy I enjoy I enjoy selling. I enjoy working with customers, selling. I enjoy working with customers, selling. I enjoy working with customers, working with partners. I love spending working with partners. I love spending working with partners. I love spending time on product. But I I have a time on product. But I I have a time on product. But I I have a technical co-founder uh who is that's technical co-founder uh who is that's technical co-founder uh who is that's really his purview. So um yeah, I'm I'm really his purview. So um yeah, I'm I'm really his purview. So um yeah, I'm I'm much more I think interested in speaking much more I think interested in speaking much more I think interested in speaking to customers uh than other founders to customers uh than other founders to customers uh than other founders because of my background I I would because of my background I I would because of my background I I would guess. Do you think it's purely guess. Do you think it's purely guess. Do you think it's purely psychological to say no I'm a psychological to say no I'm a psychological to say no I'm a salesperson? salesperson? salesperson? Because if you are even if you are a Because if you are even if you are a Because if you are even if you are a technical founder, let's say there's not technical founder, let's say there's not technical founder, let's say there's not a co-founder here, you're just a you're a co-founder here, you're just a you're a co-founder here, you're just a you're just a founder, but you're more of a just a founder, but you're more of a just a founder, but you're more of a technical of a technical mindset, you technical of a technical mindset, you technical of a technical mindset, you ultimately have to find people who you ultimately have to find people who you ultimately have to find people who you have built the product/solution for. So have built the product/solution for. So have built the product/solution for. So whether you call it selling, whether you call it selling, whether you call it selling, prospecting, um networking, surely it's prospecting, um networking, surely it's prospecting, um networking, surely it's psychological. Uh there's no question psychological. Uh there's no question psychological. Uh there's no question that you must embrace you must embrace the the the uh power of your product, the power of uh power of your product, the power of uh power of your product, the power of the thing that you have so the thing that you have so the thing that you have so carefully, diligently carefully, diligently carefully, diligently built with all of your might and all of built with all of your might and all of built with all of your might and all of your strength. you you've created this your strength. you you've created this your strength. you you've created this thing and it was so hard to do. You have

thing and it was so hard to do. You have thing and it was so hard to do. You have to recognize that and and you have to um to recognize that and and you have to um to recognize that and and you have to um pivot any type of hesitancy. You have to pivot any type of hesitancy. You have to pivot any type of hesitancy. You have to talk about it talk about it talk about it into almost a into almost a into almost a uh a zealous passion to uh a zealous passion to uh a zealous passion to to promote to to promote to to promote to evangelize maybe is the right word, evangelize maybe is the right word, evangelize maybe is the right word, right? Uh and and to talk to anybody who right? Uh and and to talk to anybody who right? Uh and and to talk to anybody who has any interest at all in talking to has any interest at all in talking to has any interest at all in talking to you, uh you you have to sort of take you, uh you you have to sort of take you, uh you you have to sort of take that all that energy and use it to that all that energy and use it to that all that energy and use it to uh to to spread the word, to find, you uh to to spread the word, to find, you uh to to spread the word, to find, you know, early customers, to build great know, early customers, to build great know, early customers, to build great relationships with people that you relationships with people that you relationships with people that you trust, so that as you are building your trust, so that as you are building your trust, so that as you are building your business, you can reach back out to business, you can reach back out to business, you can reach back out to and and you can get honest feedback and and you can get honest feedback and and you can get honest feedback about new features and and product about new features and and product about new features and and product direction and roadmap and uh have honest direction and roadmap and uh have honest direction and roadmap and uh have honest conversations about how your CS team is conversations about how your CS team is conversations about how your CS team is doing with things. And you know, all of doing with things. And you know, all of doing with things. And you know, all of those things that are foundational to those things that are foundational to those things that are foundational to building a great business involve building a great business involve building a great business involve communicating communicating communicating with customers or prospects.

with customers or prospects. with customers or prospects. And and so I I I I know that some people And and so I I I I know that some people And and so I I I I know that some people become wildly successful by become wildly successful by become wildly successful by creating such brilliance in software creating such brilliance in software creating such brilliance in software that you know everything is apparent and that you know everything is apparent and that you know everything is apparent and and people use things without any and people use things without any and people use things without any explanation. But it's pretty rare that explanation. But it's pretty rare that explanation. But it's pretty rare that that happens. And so without that, that happens. And so without that, that happens. And so without that, it really requires that human element. it really requires that human element. it really requires that human element. Right. Exactly. And I think that um that Right. Exactly. And I think that um that Right. Exactly. And I think that um that there's there's an element of this as there's there's an element of this as there's there's an element of this as well where you have to be prepared to be well where you have to be prepared to be well where you have to be prepared to be embarrassed to be rejected. Like that's embarrassed to be rejected. Like that's embarrassed to be rejected. Like that's going to come at some point. Why would going to come at some point. Why would going to come at some point. Why would you not want that to be at the beginning you not want that to be at the beginning you not want that to be at the beginning of the process where you can learn of the process where you can learn of the process where you can learn quickly and and sort of you know set quickly and and sort of you know set quickly and and sort of you know set your path uh outright? I think given your path uh outright? I think given your path uh outright? I think given that it's Hunter that is obviously that it's Hunter that is obviously that it's Hunter that is obviously bringing you this podcast um I have to bringing you this podcast um I have to bringing you this podcast um I have to ask you about cold email. [laughter] ask you about cold email. [laughter] ask you about cold email. [laughter] What is the best cold email you have What is the best cold email you have What is the best cold email you have received and what was good about it?

received and what was good about it? received and what was good about it? >> Let me start with some things that are >> Let me start with some things that are >> Let me start with some things that are not good. inserting events into my not good. inserting events into my not good. inserting events into my calendar through cold email. calendar through cold email. calendar through cold email. There is nothing that infuriates me more There is nothing that infuriates me more There is nothing that infuriates me more uh than uh than uh than uh abusing the calendaring standard to uh abusing the calendaring standard to uh abusing the calendaring standard to insert events into my calendar without insert events into my calendar without insert events into my calendar without my permission. Things like that that are my permission. Things like that that are my permission. Things like that that are hacky, spammy are things that u I find hacky, spammy are things that u I find hacky, spammy are things that u I find objectionable. objectionable. objectionable. The The The cold emails that work for me that that I cold emails that work for me that that I cold emails that work for me that that I find interesting find interesting find interesting are are are very topical very topical very topical uh very uh very uh very uh painoint uh painoint uh painoint focused. focused. focused. And so I received an email last week And so I received an email last week And so I received an email last week from uh from someone uh that from uh from someone uh that from uh from someone uh that uh was pitching a social media uh was pitching a social media uh was pitching a social media um sort of management tool um sort of management tool um sort of management tool and they figured out that we had been and they figured out that we had been and they figured out that we had been using HubSpot's built-in social media using HubSpot's built-in social media using HubSpot's built-in social media scheduler. Um, scheduler. Um, scheduler. Um, and I'm sure there's some ways of that and I'm sure there's some ways of that and I'm sure there's some ways of that folks like that can determine these folks like that can determine these folks like that can determine these things. So, uh, this person sent an

things. So, uh, this person sent an things. So, uh, this person sent an email email email acknowledging acknowledging acknowledging what I found to be the single biggest what I found to be the single biggest what I found to be the single biggest pain point associated with HubSpot's pain point associated with HubSpot's pain point associated with HubSpot's social media social media meeting social media social media meeting social media social media meeting scheduler scheduler scheduler and offered a solution in the subject and offered a solution in the subject and offered a solution in the subject line. line. line. And you know it's a painoint that I've And you know it's a painoint that I've And you know it's a painoint that I've been you know furious about for some been you know furious about for some been you know furious about for some time and it caught my attention time and it caught my attention time and it caught my attention responded had a demo yesterday and we responded had a demo yesterday and we responded had a demo yesterday and we are well on our way to having a are well on our way to having a are well on our way to having a relationship with this company. Uh, and relationship with this company. Uh, and relationship with this company. Uh, and it was it was done through a lot of it was it was done through a lot of it was it was done through a lot of research research research by that person and in in creating a a by that person and in in creating a a by that person and in in creating a a subject line in an email that was highly subject line in an email that was highly subject line in an email that was highly personalized to our particular pain. personalized to our particular pain. personalized to our particular pain. That that is it's so obvious, isn't it? That that is it's so obvious, isn't it? That that is it's so obvious, isn't it? It it's so obvious what you need to do, It it's so obvious what you need to do, It it's so obvious what you need to do, but but but people don't do it. 96% of of of uh of people don't do it. 96% of of of uh of people don't do it. 96% of of of uh of of emails go unresponded.

of emails go unresponded. of emails go unresponded. Cold emails, I should qualify that. 96% Cold emails, I should qualify that. 96% Cold emails, I should qualify that. 96% of cold emails go un unresponded. of cold emails go un unresponded. of cold emails go un unresponded. The ones that get responded to, they're The ones that get responded to, they're The ones that get responded to, they're relevant. They're personal and they give relevant. They're personal and they give relevant. They're personal and they give you a reason to trust. Clearly, that you a reason to trust. Clearly, that you a reason to trust. Clearly, that person did their research and pinpointed person did their research and pinpointed person did their research and pinpointed you to reach out to you to reach out to you to reach out to and and it's paid off. Like and and it's paid off. Like and and it's paid off. Like that's how I mean I'm I'm I sound like that's how I mean I'm I'm I sound like that's how I mean I'm I'm I sound like I'm preaching but it it is painfully I'm preaching but it it is painfully I'm preaching but it it is painfully simple how to do this. And it is my hope simple how to do this. And it is my hope simple how to do this. And it is my hope that more people can send you those sort that more people can send you those sort that more people can send you those sort of emails that actually are relevant. of emails that actually are relevant. of emails that actually are relevant. You may not have got the timing correct. You may not have got the timing correct. You may not have got the timing correct. They may have got the timing completely They may have got the timing completely They may have got the timing completely incorrect. You may have just gone incorrect. You may have just gone incorrect. You may have just gone through um your HubSpot renewal and they through um your HubSpot renewal and they through um your HubSpot renewal and they just missed you by a couple of weeks and just missed you by a couple of weeks and just missed you by a couple of weeks and you you know just don't have budget now you you know just don't have budget now you you know just don't have budget now for instance. But they the quality of for instance. But they the quality of for instance. But they the quality of the message there and the relevance the message there and the relevance the message there and the relevance sounds like it speaks for itself. It sounds like it speaks for itself. It sounds like it speaks for itself. It does. It does. And does. It does. And does. It does. And it contrasts and stands out against so it contrasts and stands out against so it contrasts and stands out against so many other emails. I There's this many other emails. I There's this many other emails. I There's this current trend where I'm getting emails current trend where I'm getting emails current trend where I'm getting emails that address me as mister.

that address me as mister. that address me as mister. Just mister. It'll say, "Hey, mister." Just mister. It'll say, "Hey, mister." Just mister. It'll say, "Hey, mister." And then not not Mr. Kelly. And then not not Mr. Kelly. And then not not Mr. Kelly. It'll just say mister. It'll just say mister. It'll just say mister. you know, getting these, you know, getting these, you know, getting these, you know, five 10 a day. I'm thinking, you know, five 10 a day. I'm thinking, you know, five 10 a day. I'm thinking, who are the people that have coached who are the people that have coached who are the people that have coached these SDRs to do this? I I guess it's a these SDRs to do this? I I guess it's a these SDRs to do this? I I guess it's a pattern interrupt, right? Like I'm pattern interrupt, right? Like I'm pattern interrupt, right? Like I'm expecting to see. So maybe that is the expecting to see. So maybe that is the expecting to see. So maybe that is the hook, but hook, but hook, but it's not going to work with me anyway. it's not going to work with me anyway. it's not going to work with me anyway. >> I don't think it's going to work with >> I don't think it's going to work with >> I don't think it's going to work with many people, Dennis. [laughter] Um, I I have had a I've had a blast Um, I I have had a I've had a blast talking to you today. Uh, I hope that talking to you today. Uh, I hope that talking to you today. Uh, I hope that our listeners, founders, marketers, our listeners, founders, marketers, our listeners, founders, marketers, sales people, like there's plenty of of sales people, like there's plenty of of sales people, like there's plenty of of of advice that Dennis has given from of advice that Dennis has given from of advice that Dennis has given from today's episode that I I think we could today's episode that I I think we could today's episode that I I think we could all walk away with. Um, if I could ask all walk away with. Um, if I could ask all walk away with. Um, if I could ask you one last question. Um, and this is you one last question. Um, and this is you one last question. Um, and this is a, you know, this doesn't have to be a, you know, this doesn't have to be a, you know, this doesn't have to be business related, but what is right now business related, but what is right now business related, but what is right now in your reading podcast or just anything in your reading podcast or just anything in your reading podcast or just anything sort of entertainment list that you're sort of entertainment list that you're sort of entertainment list that you're really enjoying? Well, really enjoying? Well, really enjoying? Well, I am I am I am very concerned very concerned very concerned about the state of the US economy about the state of the US economy about the state of the US economy heading into 2026.

heading into 2026. heading into 2026. And so I am spending a lot of time And so I am spending a lot of time And so I am spending a lot of time trying to understand trying to understand trying to understand uh where we may be heading uh where we may be heading uh where we may be heading uh with a uh with a uh with a um uh likely rise in inflation, a likely um uh likely rise in inflation, a likely um uh likely rise in inflation, a likely AI bubble popping AI bubble popping AI bubble popping uh in the stock market, asset values uh in the stock market, asset values uh in the stock market, asset values diminishing, diminishing, diminishing, uh real estate getting held up. So there uh real estate getting held up. So there uh real estate getting held up. So there are a lot of very uh unsettled signs in are a lot of very uh unsettled signs in are a lot of very uh unsettled signs in the US economy that I'm trying to get my the US economy that I'm trying to get my the US economy that I'm trying to get my head wrapped around right now. And so I head wrapped around right now. And so I head wrapped around right now. And so I spent a lot of time spent a lot of time spent a lot of time uh reading and thinking about how to uh reading and thinking about how to uh reading and thinking about how to position the company and of course uh position the company and of course uh position the company and of course uh the Kelly family uh to uh you know be uh the Kelly family uh to uh you know be uh the Kelly family uh to uh you know be uh uh in a position to do as as well as we uh in a position to do as as well as we uh in a position to do as as well as we can in this environment. Uh it's a it's can in this environment. Uh it's a it's can in this environment. Uh it's a it's a very challenging time. Uh there's a a very challenging time. Uh there's a a very challenging time. Uh there's a lot of fluidity and a lot of things that lot of fluidity and a lot of things that lot of fluidity and a lot of things that we haven't seen before that uh are we haven't seen before that uh are we haven't seen before that uh are impacting the macroeconomic environment.

impacting the macroeconomic environment. impacting the macroeconomic environment. And so I I'm a bit of an economics nerd And so I I'm a bit of an economics nerd And so I I'm a bit of an economics nerd and uh so I enjoy digging in and sinking and uh so I enjoy digging in and sinking and uh so I enjoy digging in and sinking my teeth into uh the uh macroeconomic my teeth into uh the uh macroeconomic my teeth into uh the uh macroeconomic context of the environment we're dealing context of the environment we're dealing context of the environment we're dealing with. Probably not very fun. [laughter] We all have different ideas of fun. I'm We all have different ideas of fun. I'm not sure you think that is fun, but I not sure you think that is fun, but I not sure you think that is fun, but I think you think it's valuable. And like think you think it's valuable. And like think you think it's valuable. And like everything today, it's been incredibly everything today, it's been incredibly everything today, it's been incredibly valuable. So, um, Dennis, thank you so valuable. So, um, Dennis, thank you so valuable. So, um, Dennis, thank you so much for the last 50 plus minutes of much for the last 50 plus minutes of much for the last 50 plus minutes of talking with me and and for our talking with me and and for our talking with me and and for our listeners, uh, thank you for joining us. listeners, uh, thank you for joining us. listeners, uh, thank you for joining us. And if you, uh, have any questions, uh, And if you, uh, have any questions, uh, And if you, uh, have any questions, uh, about about postalytics, uh, I want to about about postalytics, uh, I want to about about postalytics, uh, I want to speak to Dennis himself, there will be speak to Dennis himself, there will be speak to Dennis himself, there will be information about how to contact him information about how to contact him information about how to contact him within the description of the show. Um, within the description of the show. Um, within the description of the show. Um, but for now, thank you, Dennis, for but for now, thank you, Dennis, for but for now, thank you, Dennis, for joining us on Outfox. James, always a joining us on Outfox. James, always a joining us on Outfox. James, always a pleasure to connect with you and, uh, so pleasure to connect with you and, uh, so pleasure to connect with you and, uh, so happy to speak with your audience today. happy to speak with your audience today. happy to speak with your audience today. Thanks, Dennis. If you like what you Thanks, Dennis. If you like what you Thanks, Dennis. If you like what you heard, please like, [music] subscribe, heard, please like, [music] subscribe, heard, please like, [music] subscribe, and explore even more of the Outbox and explore even more of the Outbox and explore even more of the Outbox community by visiting community by visiting community by visiting www.outbox.hunter.io. [music]