Outfoxed podcast by Hunter.io | Ep 10: Emmet Gibney on learning if you built something people want

This is Outf Fox, the podcast brought to This is Outf Fox, the podcast brought to you by hunter.io, the trusted B2B lead you by hunter.io, the trusted B2B lead you by hunter.io, the trusted B2B lead generation platform built for every generation platform built for every generation platform built for every professional. Get ready for no professional. Get ready for no professional. Get ready for no playbooks, no posturing, and no egos. playbooks, no posturing, and no egos. playbooks, no posturing, and no egos. Your host is Hunter CEO Matt Tharp, and Your host is Hunter CEO Matt Tharp, and Your host is Hunter CEO Matt Tharp, and his guest today is EMTT Gibney, the CEO his guest today is EMTT Gibney, the CEO his guest today is EMTT Gibney, the CEO of affiliate and referral software of affiliate and referral software of affiliate and referral software platform throughall. Let's get into it. platform throughall. Let's get into it. platform throughall. Let's get into it. Welcome to Out Fox. Um, excited to talk Welcome to Out Fox. Um, excited to talk Welcome to Out Fox. Um, excited to talk to our guest this week. I'd love for you to our guest this week. I'd love for you to our guest this week. I'd love for you to to intro. I'll talk about why you're to to intro. I'll talk about why you're to to intro. I'll talk about why you're here. So, Emit is CEO of Rewardful. Uh, here. So, Emit is CEO of Rewardful. Uh, here. So, Emit is CEO of Rewardful. Uh, Rewardful is a SAS company that's really Rewardful is a SAS company that's really Rewardful is a SAS company that's really focused on affiliate and referral focused on affiliate and referral focused on affiliate and referral programs, which is how we got connected. programs, which is how we got connected. programs, which is how we got connected. Uh, because Hunter is a Rewardful Uh, because Hunter is a Rewardful Uh, because Hunter is a Rewardful customer and enjoying it. Um, we really customer and enjoying it. Um, we really customer and enjoying it. Um, we really like the platform. And so, one of the like the platform. And so, one of the like the platform. And so, one of the things that, uh, you know, we talk about things that, uh, you know, we talk about things that, uh, you know, we talk about here on Outf Fox are just like different here on Outf Fox are just like different here on Outf Fox are just like different ways people are building companies. And ways people are building companies. And ways people are building companies. And you know, anytime we can use a product you know, anytime we can use a product you know, anytime we can use a product we get excited about, we want to bring we get excited about, we want to bring we get excited about, we want to bring people on. So, EMTT, welcome. Uh, really people on. So, EMTT, welcome. Uh, really people on. So, EMTT, welcome. Uh, really excited to to have you on the podcast.

excited to to have you on the podcast. excited to to have you on the podcast. >> Good to be here. Why don't you um talk a >> Good to be here. Why don't you um talk a >> Good to be here. Why don't you um talk a little bit about your journey with little bit about your journey with little bit about your journey with Rewardful and um kind of give us an Rewardful and um kind of give us an Rewardful and um kind of give us an overview of that experience. overview of that experience. overview of that experience. >> Sure. Well, the story actually goes back >> Sure. Well, the story actually goes back >> Sure. Well, the story actually goes back um quite a ways to kind of understand um quite a ways to kind of understand um quite a ways to kind of understand the the connection, I guess. Um, the the connection, I guess. Um, the the connection, I guess. Um, Rewardful was was founded in 2017, 2018. Rewardful was was founded in 2017, 2018. Rewardful was was founded in 2017, 2018. Um, but actually the the founders of Um, but actually the the founders of Um, but actually the the founders of Rewardful, Kyle Fox and Brady Cassidy, I Rewardful, Kyle Fox and Brady Cassidy, I Rewardful, Kyle Fox and Brady Cassidy, I had known from the Edmonton startup had known from the Edmonton startup had known from the Edmonton startup community, uh, Edmonton Canada, um, from community, uh, Edmonton Canada, um, from community, uh, Edmonton Canada, um, from 2012 or something like that, 2012, 2013. 2012 or something like that, 2012, 2013. 2012 or something like that, 2012, 2013. Um, met those guys and, um, became Um, met those guys and, um, became Um, met those guys and, um, became pretty good buddies with with Kyle and pretty good buddies with with Kyle and pretty good buddies with with Kyle and we actually had founded a healthcare we actually had founded a healthcare we actually had founded a healthcare software startup in 2015. software startup in 2015. software startup in 2015. and worked on that together for for a and worked on that together for for a and worked on that together for for a year or so. It didn't the company didn't year or so. It didn't the company didn't year or so. It didn't the company didn't work out. FYI, anyone who wants to, you work out. FYI, anyone who wants to, you work out. FYI, anyone who wants to, you know, talk about glutton for punishment. know, talk about glutton for punishment. know, talk about glutton for punishment. Um, if if you're a glutton for Um, if if you're a glutton for Um, if if you're a glutton for punishment and go into healthcare in any punishment and go into healthcare in any punishment and go into healthcare in any shape or form, um, including healthcare shape or form, um, including healthcare shape or form, um, including healthcare software. So, that didn't that didn't software. So, that didn't that didn't software. So, that didn't that didn't work out. We shut down the company. I work out. We shut down the company. I work out. We shut down the company. I actually moved to Ireland. Um, but then actually moved to Ireland. Um, but then actually moved to Ireland. Um, but then Kyle went and started working at Podia, Kyle went and started working at Podia, Kyle went and started working at Podia, another SAS company for those of you who another SAS company for those of you who another SAS company for those of you who don't know Podia. Um, and then a couple don't know Podia. Um, and then a couple don't know Podia. Um, and then a couple years later, he then started Rewardful years later, he then started Rewardful years later, he then started Rewardful as a side project with with Brady. They as a side project with with Brady. They as a side project with with Brady. They grew that company for a few years. And, grew that company for a few years. And, grew that company for a few years. And, uh, my first sort of exposure to working

uh, my first sort of exposure to working uh, my first sort of exposure to working for Rewardful was briefly during the for Rewardful was briefly during the for Rewardful was briefly during the early days of COVID and they were kind early days of COVID and they were kind early days of COVID and they were kind of in the early phases of Rewardful. I of in the early phases of Rewardful. I of in the early phases of Rewardful. I can't I think they're maybe at like, can't I think they're maybe at like, can't I think they're maybe at like, >> you know, 9 or 10,000 in in MR. So, >> you know, 9 or 10,000 in in MR. So, >> you know, 9 or 10,000 in in MR. So, still pretty small business at the time. still pretty small business at the time. still pretty small business at the time. >> Really? >> Really? >> Really? >> Um, they were still working full-time >> Um, they were still working full-time >> Um, they were still working full-time jobs and I was working for a travel jobs and I was working for a travel jobs and I was working for a travel company company company >> and not a great industry to be in when >> and not a great industry to be in when >> and not a great industry to be in when the global pandemic hits. Company lays the global pandemic hits. Company lays the global pandemic hits. Company lays off pretty much everybody. I got I got off pretty much everybody. I got I got off pretty much everybody. I got I got laid off and um nobody was hiring laid off and um nobody was hiring laid off and um nobody was hiring because everyone was terrified of like because everyone was terrified of like because everyone was terrified of like what are we doing? So, I was like well what are we doing? So, I was like well what are we doing? So, I was like well I'll just I'll just I'll just >> what am I going to do? I started like, >> what am I going to do? I started like, >> what am I going to do? I started like, you know, teaching myself Ruby on Rails you know, teaching myself Ruby on Rails you know, teaching myself Ruby on Rails and getting ready for my first child to and getting ready for my first child to and getting ready for my first child to be born and I was like, "Well, what need be born and I was like, "Well, what need be born and I was like, "Well, what need something to do? No one's hiring." And something to do? No one's hiring." And something to do? No one's hiring." And so I went to Con Brady and I was like, so I went to Con Brady and I was like, so I went to Con Brady and I was like, "Hey, is there anything I can help out "Hey, is there anything I can help out "Hey, is there anything I can help out with?" And they're like, "Sure, yeah, with?" And they're like, "Sure, yeah, with?" And they're like, "Sure, yeah, come and help us in support." So like come and help us in support." So like come and help us in support." So like didn't charge him anything. Just went didn't charge him anything. Just went didn't charge him anything. Just went and started like got into intercom and and started like got into intercom and and started like got into intercom and was just, you know, answering support was just, you know, answering support was just, you know, answering support tickets and helping people troubleshoot tickets and helping people troubleshoot tickets and helping people troubleshoot their installation. did that for maybe their installation. did that for maybe their installation. did that for maybe two or three months and um and then two or three months and um and then two or three months and um and then people started hiring again. I went and people started hiring again. I went and people started hiring again. I went and got another job, worked there for about got another job, worked there for about got another job, worked there for about a year um which I didn't really enjoy a year um which I didn't really enjoy a year um which I didn't really enjoy and got back in touch with with Colin and got back in touch with with Colin and got back in touch with with Colin Brady and I was like, "Hey, you know, is Brady and I was like, "Hey, you know, is Brady and I was like, "Hey, you know, is there anything in here that I could kind there anything in here that I could kind there anything in here that I could kind of come in and help with?" And my of come in and help with?" And my of come in and help with?" And my background is kind of in sort of background is kind of in sort of background is kind of in sort of product. My most recent professional uh product. My most recent professional uh product. My most recent professional uh sort of history was more in sort of

sort of history was more in sort of sort of history was more in sort of product type roles and then previously product type roles and then previously product type roles and then previously had been in marketing. So they're like, had been in marketing. So they're like, had been in marketing. So they're like, "Oh, you come in and help us with some "Oh, you come in and help us with some "Oh, you come in and help us with some product and some marketing stuff or product and some marketing stuff or product and some marketing stuff or whatever." and uh but then we we put a whatever." and uh but then we we put a whatever." and uh but then we we put a pause on that because they started the pause on that because they started the pause on that because they started the process of talking to SAS group about process of talking to SAS group about process of talking to SAS group about selling the company and you know like oh selling the company and you know like oh selling the company and you know like oh you know we'll hold off on hiring you know we'll hold off on hiring you know we'll hold off on hiring anybody because like we're talking about anybody because like we're talking about anybody because like we're talking about an acquisition and so paused that for a an acquisition and so paused that for a an acquisition and so paused that for a few months and then so I joined uh a few few months and then so I joined uh a few few months and then so I joined uh a few months post acquisition to to SAS group months post acquisition to to SAS group months post acquisition to to SAS group so I think it was 2018 was sort of like so I think it was 2018 was sort of like so I think it was 2018 was sort of like the first customer who was Podia by the the first customer who was Podia by the the first customer who was Podia by the way fast forward for three years they way fast forward for three years they way fast forward for three years they had sold the company and it was like had sold the company and it was like had sold the company and it was like side project for most of his existence. side project for most of his existence. side project for most of his existence. super interesting like how quickly super interesting like how quickly super interesting like how quickly they're able to do it and like on the they're able to do it and like on the they're able to do it and like on the side um and then I was just working in side um and then I was just working in side um and then I was just working in this sort of mixed role of product and this sort of mixed role of product and this sort of mixed role of product and marketing mostly kind of marketing after marketing mostly kind of marketing after marketing mostly kind of marketing after a year K and Brady left they had you a year K and Brady left they had you a year K and Brady left they had you know finished their their earnout sort know finished their their earnout sort know finished their their earnout sort of period whatever and then wanted to go of period whatever and then wanted to go of period whatever and then wanted to go and work on other projects and SAS scoop and work on other projects and SAS scoop and work on other projects and SAS scoop at that point was going and looking for at that point was going and looking for at that point was going and looking for sort of a professional CEO to come in sort of a professional CEO to come in sort of a professional CEO to come in and take over for you know Brady who had and take over for you know Brady who had and take over for you know Brady who had left and um one of the existing left and um one of the existing left and um one of the existing developers took over as CTO and I kind developers took over as CTO and I kind developers took over as CTO and I kind of just took over doing the stuff that of just took over doing the stuff that of just took over doing the stuff that that Brady had been doing kind of that Brady had been doing kind of that Brady had been doing kind of marketing stuff, demo with the customers marketing stuff, demo with the customers marketing stuff, demo with the customers um and then a lot of the sort of admin um and then a lot of the sort of admin um and then a lot of the sort of admin stuff basically everything that a CEO stuff basically everything that a CEO stuff basically everything that a CEO ostensibly would be doing. And at one of ostensibly would be doing. And at one of ostensibly would be doing. And at one of the first board meetings we had with the

the first board meetings we had with the the first board meetings we had with the board, I basically said, "We're looking board, I basically said, "We're looking board, I basically said, "We're looking to hire a professional CEO. to hire a professional CEO. to hire a professional CEO. I'm basically doing that now. I'm basically doing that now. I'm basically doing that now. nothing's caught fire yet. Why don't you nothing's caught fire yet. Why don't you nothing's caught fire yet. Why don't you give me a few more months to try this give me a few more months to try this give me a few more months to try this out? If it works out, let me do it out? If it works out, let me do it out? If it works out, let me do it permanently and if it doesn't, then permanently and if it doesn't, then permanently and if it doesn't, then fine, you know, we can continue going to fine, you know, we can continue going to fine, you know, we can continue going to find a professional CEO. Full credit to find a professional CEO. Full credit to find a professional CEO. Full credit to them, they they gave me the opportunity them, they they gave me the opportunity them, they they gave me the opportunity and fast forward a few months, things and fast forward a few months, things and fast forward a few months, things were going well. The company was uh was were going well. The company was uh was were going well. The company was uh was growing, growth was had been growing, growth was had been growing, growth was had been accelerating, and so they gave me the accelerating, and so they gave me the accelerating, and so they gave me the the title on a full-time permanent the title on a full-time permanent the title on a full-time permanent basis. And that was a little bit more basis. And that was a little bit more basis. And that was a little bit more than two years ago. So it was it was than two years ago. So it was it was than two years ago. So it was it was maybe August I think 2023. Since since maybe August I think 2023. Since since maybe August I think 2023. Since since then I've been uh CEO at at Rewardful. then I've been uh CEO at at Rewardful. then I've been uh CEO at at Rewardful. So that's that's kind of more or less So that's that's kind of more or less So that's that's kind of more or less how I've I've gotten to this role in how I've I've gotten to this role in how I've I've gotten to this role in this very kind of yeah unusual sort of this very kind of yeah unusual sort of this very kind of yeah unusual sort of path. path. path. >> Yeah. It's an atypical sort of ciruitous >> Yeah. It's an atypical sort of ciruitous >> Yeah. It's an atypical sort of ciruitous route to uh to that role. Um route to uh to that role. Um route to uh to that role. Um interesting. I mean there's wow there's interesting. I mean there's wow there's interesting. I mean there's wow there's a lot to unpack with that by the way.

a lot to unpack with that by the way. a lot to unpack with that by the way. lots of parallels uh cuz that's almost lots of parallels uh cuz that's almost lots of parallels uh cuz that's almost to the month uh when I started as CEO at to the month uh when I started as CEO at to the month uh when I started as CEO at Hunter. Um Hunter. Um Hunter. Um >> Oh, interesting. >> Oh, interesting. >> Oh, interesting. >> Yeah. Yeah. And kind of a similar thing, >> Yeah. Yeah. And kind of a similar thing, >> Yeah. Yeah. And kind of a similar thing, founders, not there wasn't an founders, not there wasn't an founders, not there wasn't an acquisition in the process, but founders acquisition in the process, but founders acquisition in the process, but founders were kind of looking to bring somebody were kind of looking to bring somebody were kind of looking to bring somebody in a CEO and kind of get kind of figure in a CEO and kind of get kind of figure in a CEO and kind of get kind of figure out how to get to the next, you know, out how to get to the next, you know, out how to get to the next, you know, the next growth phase of the business. the next growth phase of the business. the next growth phase of the business. Was there, if you think back to that Was there, if you think back to that Was there, if you think back to that time, you're in this kind of interim time, you're in this kind of interim time, you're in this kind of interim phase. Was there a particular activity phase. Was there a particular activity phase. Was there a particular activity or experience or like an awesome win or or experience or like an awesome win or or experience or like an awesome win or something that happened during that something that happened during that something that happened during that period of time where you felt like, "Oh period of time where you felt like, "Oh period of time where you felt like, "Oh yeah, this is going to push it over like yeah, this is going to push it over like yeah, this is going to push it over like like they have to they have to know I'm like they have to they have to know I'm like they have to they have to know I'm the right guy now." I I think ultimately the right guy now." I I think ultimately the right guy now." I I think ultimately it just comes down to like numbers talk, it just comes down to like numbers talk, it just comes down to like numbers talk, right? You you can try and give any kind right? You you can try and give any kind right? You you can try and give any kind of, you know, qualitative or sort of of, you know, qualitative or sort of of, you know, qualitative or sort of soft and fuzzy type stuff, but soft and fuzzy type stuff, but soft and fuzzy type stuff, but ultimately it's going to come down to ultimately it's going to come down to ultimately it's going to come down to numbers and that type of situation. And numbers and that type of situation. And numbers and that type of situation. And basically do you have that that graph basically do you have that that graph basically do you have that that graph that looks that nice way in terms of that looks that nice way in terms of that looks that nice way in terms of sort of that sort of up and to the right sort of that sort of up and to the right sort of that sort of up and to the right and that's essentially what it was in and that's essentially what it was in and that's essentially what it was in that in that period right was that that in that period right was that that in that period right was that growth was accelerating in that in that growth was accelerating in that in that growth was accelerating in that in that period. Um, lucky for me that was a period. Um, lucky for me that was a period. Um, lucky for me that was a particularly strong year for the particularly strong year for the particularly strong year for the business, helped by tailwinds from AI business, helped by tailwinds from AI business, helped by tailwinds from AI kind of just taking off and we very much kind of just taking off and we very much kind of just taking off and we very much caught that wave part of the mixed caught that wave part of the mixed caught that wave part of the mixed metaphors. But um metaphors. But um metaphors. But um uh so certainly that that helped. But um uh so certainly that that helped. But um uh so certainly that that helped. But um yeah, like uh it it really is just like

yeah, like uh it it really is just like yeah, like uh it it really is just like do can you make the numbers go in the do can you make the numbers go in the do can you make the numbers go in the right direction and we can talk a little right direction and we can talk a little right direction and we can talk a little bit about like what are the different bit about like what are the different bit about like what are the different things that people can do and and that things that people can do and and that things that people can do and and that we did to to to do that. Um so yeah, we did to to to do that. Um so yeah, we did to to to do that. Um so yeah, ultimately it's that's how that's how ultimately it's that's how that's how ultimately it's that's how that's how you get the job if there's a board you get the job if there's a board you get the job if there's a board involved is can you make the numbers go involved is can you make the numbers go involved is can you make the numbers go the right direction. Was it primarily the right direction. Was it primarily the right direction. Was it primarily just you focusing on it or did you start just you focusing on it or did you start just you focusing on it or did you start to build a team and increase the staff to build a team and increase the staff to build a team and increase the staff size and just like you know accelerate size and just like you know accelerate size and just like you know accelerate what you guys were doing as a business? what you guys were doing as a business? what you guys were doing as a business? Uh it was kind of an interesting time Uh it was kind of an interesting time Uh it was kind of an interesting time and then also interesting circumstances and then also interesting circumstances and then also interesting circumstances because because because of our sort of place within SAS Group. of our sort of place within SAS Group. of our sort of place within SAS Group. Prior to that, Reward had been quite Prior to that, Reward had been quite Prior to that, Reward had been quite independent from the rest of SAS Group. independent from the rest of SAS Group. independent from the rest of SAS Group. And I don't know how much you or any of And I don't know how much you or any of And I don't know how much you or any of your audience might know about SAS your audience might know about SAS your audience might know about SAS group. So, I'll just give very kind of group. So, I'll just give very kind of group. So, I'll just give very kind of brief spiel without going too much into brief spiel without going too much into brief spiel without going too much into it, but basically SAS Group is uh it, but basically SAS Group is uh it, but basically SAS Group is uh effectively a a company that buys SAS effectively a a company that buys SAS effectively a a company that buys SAS companies and holds them. So, it's not companies and holds them. So, it's not companies and holds them. So, it's not buy and then try and flip or anything buy and then try and flip or anything buy and then try and flip or anything like that. It's just buy them and try like that. It's just buy them and try like that. It's just buy them and try and build out this platform of SAS and build out this platform of SAS and build out this platform of SAS companies. Um yeah, they're gonna be companies. Um yeah, they're gonna be companies. Um yeah, they're gonna be very disappointed at me for doing a poor very disappointed at me for doing a poor very disappointed at me for doing a poor job of explaining SAS as you. But job of explaining SAS as you. But job of explaining SAS as you. But basically, basically, basically, >> um there's I think 22 companies now in >> um there's I think 22 companies now in >> um there's I think 22 companies now in the portfolio, including Rewardful. I the portfolio, including Rewardful. I the portfolio, including Rewardful. I think Rewardful was something like the think Rewardful was something like the think Rewardful was something like the seventh uh acquisition, maybe slightly seventh uh acquisition, maybe slightly seventh uh acquisition, maybe slightly later than that. The team uh when Kyle later than that. The team uh when Kyle later than that. The team uh when Kyle and Brady left, there was and Brady left, there was and Brady left, there was um four of us after they left.

um four of us after they left. um four of us after they left. >> Um one person in support and then two >> Um one person in support and then two >> Um one person in support and then two developers and then myself. So I was developers and then myself. So I was developers and then myself. So I was doing like marketing and then kind of doing like marketing and then kind of doing like marketing and then kind of everything else kind of and um to that everything else kind of and um to that everything else kind of and um to that point Rewardful hadn't really taken point Rewardful hadn't really taken point Rewardful hadn't really taken advantage of the resources that SAS advantage of the resources that SAS advantage of the resources that SAS Group was able to provide in terms of Group was able to provide in terms of Group was able to provide in terms of supports and sort of marketing supports. supports and sort of marketing supports. supports and sort of marketing supports. And so SAS Group at the time it was much And so SAS Group at the time it was much And so SAS Group at the time it was much smaller but still quite awesome but and smaller but still quite awesome but and smaller but still quite awesome but and now it's it's much more sort of now it's it's much more sort of now it's it's much more sort of sophisticated and more people involved sophisticated and more people involved sophisticated and more people involved but they had a central marketing team. but they had a central marketing team. but they had a central marketing team. And so one of the first things I did was And so one of the first things I did was And so one of the first things I did was I reached out to um my colleague in uh I reached out to um my colleague in uh I reached out to um my colleague in uh SAS Group named Tim Hikes and he was one SAS Group named Tim Hikes and he was one SAS Group named Tim Hikes and he was one of the CMOs within SAS Group and said of the CMOs within SAS Group and said of the CMOs within SAS Group and said like let's link up you know Brady's like let's link up you know Brady's like let's link up you know Brady's leaving let's you know figure out like a leaving let's you know figure out like a leaving let's you know figure out like a plan for Rewardful and in our marketing plan for Rewardful and in our marketing plan for Rewardful and in our marketing um and so they were super helpful in um and so they were super helpful in um and so they were super helpful in terms of like juicing the numbers terms of like juicing the numbers terms of like juicing the numbers basically you know what I mean like so basically you know what I mean like so basically you know what I mean like so um like SEO within SAS Group is just um like SEO within SAS Group is just um like SEO within SAS Group is just like a very well old machine and and like a very well old machine and and like a very well old machine and and very sophisticated in terms of so like very sophisticated in terms of so like very sophisticated in terms of so like that's if you were to look at like you that's if you were to look at like you that's if you were to look at like you know any SEO geeks go and check out sort know any SEO geeks go and check out sort know any SEO geeks go and check out sort of you know Rewardful's SEO trajectory of you know Rewardful's SEO trajectory of you know Rewardful's SEO trajectory over the last two or three years it's over the last two or three years it's over the last two or three years it's it's been quite impressive um optimizing it's been quite impressive um optimizing it's been quite impressive um optimizing in uh PPC and uh content both sort of in uh PPC and uh content both sort of in uh PPC and uh content both sort of onsite as well as you know on um social.

onsite as well as you know on um social. onsite as well as you know on um social. Um so that was that was a big thing is Um so that was that was a big thing is Um so that was that was a big thing is to properly kind of embed um and connect to properly kind of embed um and connect to properly kind of embed um and connect with the resources within within SAS with the resources within within SAS with the resources within within SAS group. Um and I think that had like an group. Um and I think that had like an group. Um and I think that had like an immediate effect in terms of immediate effect in terms of immediate effect in terms of accelerating and and reacelerating accelerating and and reacelerating accelerating and and reacelerating Rewardful's growth at that time. Um, so Rewardful's growth at that time. Um, so Rewardful's growth at that time. Um, so that was the big thing, just taking that was the big thing, just taking that was the big thing, just taking advantage of that. And that's something advantage of that. And that's something advantage of that. And that's something like for people that are interested in like for people that are interested in like for people that are interested in um selling their their company um and um selling their their company um and um selling their their company um and looking for a good home for it and then looking for a good home for it and then looking for a good home for it and then trying to make sure like it's kind of trying to make sure like it's kind of trying to make sure like it's kind of maybe have an opportunity to grow um SAS maybe have an opportunity to grow um SAS maybe have an opportunity to grow um SAS Group or or companies like it um you Group or or companies like it um you Group or or companies like it um you know could be a good option that they know could be a good option that they know could be a good option that they can actually help to kind of bring your can actually help to kind of bring your can actually help to kind of bring your company to the next level. Particularly company to the next level. Particularly company to the next level. Particularly if you're in that phase where you're if you're in that phase where you're if you're in that phase where you're like oh we're a team of four to eight like oh we're a team of four to eight like oh we're a team of four to eight people or whatever and we're just a people or whatever and we're just a people or whatever and we're just a bunch of hackers. We don't really know bunch of hackers. We don't really know bunch of hackers. We don't really know how to kind of get to the next level. how to kind of get to the next level. how to kind of get to the next level. you know, sometimes it's hire a you know, sometimes it's hire a you know, sometimes it's hire a professional CEO like Hunter did with professional CEO like Hunter did with professional CEO like Hunter did with you and then sometimes it's we'll sell you and then sometimes it's we'll sell you and then sometimes it's we'll sell out the company and find it a out the company and find it a out the company and find it a >> a more secure home. And um that was I >> a more secure home. And um that was I >> a more secure home. And um that was I think definitely the case with think definitely the case with think definitely the case with Rewardfall. Rewardfall. Rewardfall. >> And if you're, you know, sub 5 million >> And if you're, you know, sub 5 million >> And if you're, you know, sub 5 million in ARR, like that's a pretty good option in ARR, like that's a pretty good option in ARR, like that's a pretty good option for people. Um if you're not just trying for people. Um if you're not just trying for people. Um if you're not just trying to get out from under the bed, you're to get out from under the bed, you're to get out from under the bed, you're not trying to just flip it, right?

not trying to just flip it, right? not trying to just flip it, right? That's a that seems like a pretty good That's a that seems like a pretty good That's a that seems like a pretty good path especially for people who just like path especially for people who just like path especially for people who just like to build and and that there there are to build and and that there there are to build and and that there there are those especially if you're kind of in those especially if you're kind of in those especially if you're kind of in that 2 million range where I think a lot that 2 million range where I think a lot that 2 million range where I think a lot of times founders like okay I've got a of times founders like okay I've got a of times founders like okay I've got a thing here this is interesting I could thing here this is interesting I could thing here this is interesting I could build it maybe I'm not excited about build it maybe I'm not excited about build it maybe I'm not excited about that turning it into a real company but that turning it into a real company but that turning it into a real company but I if there's a thing here I can sell an I if there's a thing here I can sell an I if there's a thing here I can sell an asset something like a SAS group sounds asset something like a SAS group sounds asset something like a SAS group sounds like actually a really good alternative like actually a really good alternative like actually a really good alternative to like a a PE exit because at that size to like a a PE exit because at that size to like a a PE exit because at that size some of those doors aren't really open some of those doors aren't really open some of those doors aren't really open to to to Yeah, I I I don't know sort of the M&A Yeah, I I I don't know sort of the M&A Yeah, I I I don't know sort of the M&A world as as well as the guys here in SAS world as as well as the guys here in SAS world as as well as the guys here in SAS Group like Pavle who's our our head of Group like Pavle who's our our head of Group like Pavle who's our our head of M&A. Um but my understanding is PE it's M&A. Um but my understanding is PE it's M&A. Um but my understanding is PE it's yeah until you get to like 10 million in yeah until you get to like 10 million in yeah until you get to like 10 million in AR that that's just not an option and I AR that that's just not an option and I AR that that's just not an option and I think SAS group they'll they'll look I think SAS group they'll they'll look I think SAS group they'll they'll look I think officially they'll say like 1 think officially they'll say like 1 think officially they'll say like 1 million plus ARR is kind of the the million plus ARR is kind of the the million plus ARR is kind of the the floor that they'll start looking but floor that they'll start looking but floor that they'll start looking but really it's probably closer to to 2 really it's probably closer to to 2 really it's probably closer to to 2 million. Um, but like if people are in million. Um, but like if people are in million. Um, but like if people are in that space, if you're at 1 million or that space, if you're at 1 million or that space, if you're at 1 million or less, you can still reach out to the less, you can still reach out to the less, you can still reach out to the people at SAS Group and they like to people at SAS Group and they like to people at SAS Group and they like to talk to people earlier as well. Um, so talk to people earlier as well. Um, so talk to people earlier as well. Um, so yeah, you yeah, you yeah, you >> you said something >> you said something >> you said something earlier I want to kind of call back to, earlier I want to kind of call back to, earlier I want to kind of call back to, um, you talked about PLG, um, you talked about PLG, um, you talked about PLG, um, for and and you said that with um, for and and you said that with um, for and and you said that with almost a commitment. And so for people almost a commitment. And so for people almost a commitment. And so for people who don't know or people who are who don't know or people who are who don't know or people who are listening or they're thinking about PLG listening or they're thinking about PLG listening or they're thinking about PLG and they think, "Oh, you know, the and they think, "Oh, you know, the and they think, "Oh, you know, the traditional thing like I got to hire traditional thing like I got to hire traditional thing like I got to hire chief revenue officer for my startup to

chief revenue officer for my startup to chief revenue officer for my startup to make sure we're growing sales and make sure we're growing sales and make sure we're growing sales and marketing and all of this and um yeah, marketing and all of this and um yeah, marketing and all of this and um yeah, we'll probably do fremium or PLG or we'll probably do fremium or PLG or we'll probably do fremium or PLG or something." They're just kind of like something." They're just kind of like something." They're just kind of like treating it like a playbook. treating it like a playbook. treating it like a playbook. What would you tell people about what What would you tell people about what What would you tell people about what that means to them? What making that that means to them? What making that that means to them? What making that decision about I want to do PLG. I decision about I want to do PLG. I decision about I want to do PLG. I really want to do that, right? That's really want to do that, right? That's really want to do that, right? That's how I want to grow the business. For how I want to grow the business. For how I want to grow the business. For people that are treating that like it's people that are treating that like it's people that are treating that like it's just a playbook, what are some of the just a playbook, what are some of the just a playbook, what are some of the lessons that you would want to impart lessons that you would want to impart lessons that you would want to impart about maybe what they should know before about maybe what they should know before about maybe what they should know before they make that decision that they may they make that decision that they may they make that decision that they may not know today? not know today? not know today? >> When I hear PLG, what I really think >> When I hear PLG, what I really think >> When I hear PLG, what I really think that this is is kind of trying to say is that this is is kind of trying to say is that this is is kind of trying to say is self-s serve. And when you think about self-s serve. And when you think about self-s serve. And when you think about like the way that a customer onboards like the way that a customer onboards like the way that a customer onboards into your product and into your service, into your product and into your service, into your product and into your service, the less that they need to interact with the less that they need to interact with the less that they need to interact with someone within your team and take up someone within your team and take up someone within your team and take up that kind of resource, that kind of resource, that kind of resource, the the more um PLG you are. That's kind the the more um PLG you are. That's kind the the more um PLG you are. That's kind of that's kind of the way I think about of that's kind of the way I think about of that's kind of the way I think about sort of the distinction between PLG and sort of the distinction between PLG and sort of the distinction between PLG and SLG. if I SLG. if I SLG. if I um go to your website and I can self-s um go to your website and I can self-s um go to your website and I can self-s serve and and sign up, that's that's serve and and sign up, that's that's serve and and sign up, that's that's obviously a kind of binary thing. But obviously a kind of binary thing. But obviously a kind of binary thing. But like I think really it comes down to like I think really it comes down to like I think really it comes down to like how good is your onboarding is like how good is your onboarding is like how good is your onboarding is probably a big piece of it. Like and probably a big piece of it. Like and probably a big piece of it. Like and it's it's something that we wrestle with it's it's something that we wrestle with it's it's something that we wrestle with and and have a lot of room to improve and and have a lot of room to improve and and have a lot of room to improve on. everyone probably does is how good on. everyone probably does is how good on. everyone probably does is how good can you make your onboarding? So, can you make your onboarding? So, can you make your onboarding? So, someone could get to that point where someone could get to that point where someone could get to that point where they can get value from your product they can get value from your product they can get value from your product without needing a solutions engineer or without needing a solutions engineer or without needing a solutions engineer or a salesperson or somebody to to get you a salesperson or somebody to to get you a salesperson or somebody to to get you to understand. Um, and it probably also

to understand. Um, and it probably also to understand. Um, and it probably also starts like from your from your starts like from your from your starts like from your from your marketing and from your messaging and marketing and from your messaging and marketing and from your messaging and how you're talking about your product in how you're talking about your product in how you're talking about your product in a way that like gets people to a way that like gets people to a way that like gets people to understand like what the hell this thing understand like what the hell this thing understand like what the hell this thing does. Um, does. Um, does. Um, >> right. the one of maybe the the biggest >> right. the one of maybe the the biggest >> right. the one of maybe the the biggest exposure that I have to this sort of exposure that I have to this sort of exposure that I have to this sort of analysis is all and all the customers analysis is all and all the customers analysis is all and all the customers that I see sign up for a wordfall and that I see sign up for a wordfall and that I see sign up for a wordfall and you know despite being very PLG we do do you know despite being very PLG we do do you know despite being very PLG we do do demos demos demos >> um and a big part of the reason I I do >> um and a big part of the reason I I do >> um and a big part of the reason I I do them is for the education of just them is for the education of just them is for the education of just understanding the flow of people who are understanding the flow of people who are understanding the flow of people who are coming in the door and seeing all the coming in the door and seeing all the coming in the door and seeing all the different businesses but there's there's different businesses but there's there's different businesses but there's there's so many people who come in that like so many people who come in that like so many people who come in that like they they they don't understand like how to build a don't understand like how to build a don't understand like how to build a product that people actually want or how product that people actually want or how product that people actually want or how to talk about their product to like to talk about their product to like to talk about their product to like clarify like what what does this do and clarify like what what does this do and clarify like what what does this do and how would you how would you use this and how would you how would you use this and how would you how would you use this and um this isn't necessarily like a um this isn't necessarily like a um this isn't necessarily like a distinction between PLG or or SLG but distinction between PLG or or SLG but distinction between PLG or or SLG but like I found this quote on LinkedIn this like I found this quote on LinkedIn this like I found this quote on LinkedIn this guy talked about his definition of what guy talked about his definition of what guy talked about his definition of what product market fit was and I always product market fit was and I always product market fit was and I always think back to this because I thought it think back to this because I thought it think back to this because I thought it was just like a great example but I'm was just like a great example but I'm was just like a great example but I'm always bastardizing the the explanation always bastardizing the the explanation always bastardizing the the explanation because I I don't have it to hand as a because I I don't have it to hand as a because I I don't have it to hand as a reference but I'll do my best to reference but I'll do my best to reference but I'll do my best to summarize effectively he said that um summarize effectively he said that um summarize effectively he said that um part of market fit is if you can part of market fit is if you can part of market fit is if you can basically develop like a scalable basically develop like a scalable basically develop like a scalable repeatable case study of a of a customer repeatable case study of a of a customer repeatable case study of a of a customer and so if you've got a really clear and so if you've got a really clear and so if you've got a really clear archetype or ICP of a customer that like

archetype or ICP of a customer that like archetype or ICP of a customer that like you can just like repeatedly generate you can just like repeatedly generate you can just like repeatedly generate case studies of someone who was this case studies of someone who was this case studies of someone who was this right like their uh small dental right like their uh small dental right like their uh small dental practice or whatever like your ICP might practice or whatever like your ICP might practice or whatever like your ICP might be, it you can repeatedly show that be, it you can repeatedly show that be, it you can repeatedly show that they're using your product to solve a they're using your product to solve a they're using your product to solve a particular problem in a particular way particular problem in a particular way particular problem in a particular way and you can acquire them in a certain and you can acquire them in a certain and you can acquire them in a certain way. And I I think that that is so vital way. And I I think that that is so vital way. And I I think that that is so vital in thinking about PLG because you you in thinking about PLG because you you in thinking about PLG because you you have to be able to do that in this have to be able to do that in this have to be able to do that in this really repeatable cookie cutter kind of really repeatable cookie cutter kind of really repeatable cookie cutter kind of way. Whereas in sales, salesled growth, way. Whereas in sales, salesled growth, way. Whereas in sales, salesled growth, you can kind of you can kind of you can kind of do mental gymnastics or kind of position do mental gymnastics or kind of position do mental gymnastics or kind of position something with someone about how the something with someone about how the something with someone about how the ability to use this particular problem ability to use this particular problem ability to use this particular problem to sol or particular solution to solve a to sol or particular solution to solve a to sol or particular solution to solve a problem, right? Um but in PLG, you don't problem, right? Um but in PLG, you don't problem, right? Um but in PLG, you don't have that opportunity. So the way you have that opportunity. So the way you have that opportunity. So the way you talk about it, the way you position it, talk about it, the way you position it, talk about it, the way you position it, the way the product is development the way the product is development the way the product is development developed really needs to fit that like developed really needs to fit that like developed really needs to fit that like cookie cutter like you know case study cookie cutter like you know case study cookie cutter like you know case study repeatedly that you're you know stamping repeatedly that you're you know stamping repeatedly that you're you know stamping out basically. Have you had an out basically. Have you had an out basically. Have you had an opportunity in your career to either be opportunity in your career to either be opportunity in your career to either be a part of an environment that was trying a part of an environment that was trying a part of an environment that was trying to balance PLG and SLG or like at scale to balance PLG and SLG or like at scale to balance PLG and SLG or like at scale or have you either have you driven that or have you either have you driven that or have you either have you driven that motion yourself and tried to tried to motion yourself and tried to tried to motion yourself and tried to tried to strike that balance because that's a strike that balance because that's a strike that balance because that's a really tricky thing. I think a lot of really tricky thing. I think a lot of really tricky thing. I think a lot of people underestimate people underestimate people underestimate adding sales to a PLG motion or vice adding sales to a PLG motion or vice adding sales to a PLG motion or vice versa.

versa. versa. >> I'm not going to be able to bring too >> I'm not going to be able to bring too >> I'm not going to be able to bring too much wisdom to the conversation. We are much wisdom to the conversation. We are much wisdom to the conversation. We are right in that ourselves right now right in that ourselves right now right in that ourselves right now >> trying to make that where >> trying to make that where >> trying to make that where >> um >> um >> um >> you know rewardful when it started >> you know rewardful when it started >> you know rewardful when it started >> was >> was >> was >> very much going after the indie hacker >> very much going after the indie hacker >> very much going after the indie hacker >> you know entry entry level kind of price >> you know entry entry level kind of price >> you know entry entry level kind of price point. I think when they started it was point. I think when they started it was point. I think when they started it was like 19 bucks a month or something like like 19 bucks a month or something like like 19 bucks a month or something like that. I think the alternatives were like that. I think the alternatives were like that. I think the alternatives were like $500 a month. There was like maybe the $500 a month. There was like maybe the $500 a month. There was like maybe the first one that like integrated properly first one that like integrated properly first one that like integrated properly with Stripe and so it was very much like with Stripe and so it was very much like with Stripe and so it was very much like you know low feature set and ease of use you know low feature set and ease of use you know low feature set and ease of use indie hacker positioning etc. Right? And indie hacker positioning etc. Right? And indie hacker positioning etc. Right? And then now as we've been around for quite then now as we've been around for quite then now as we've been around for quite a while and a while and a while and when you get you know bigger customers when you get you know bigger customers when you get you know bigger customers starting to use you then bigger starting to use you then bigger starting to use you then bigger customers still start to use you because customers still start to use you because customers still start to use you because they see oh well so and so is using you they see oh well so and so is using you they see oh well so and so is using you then then I I should be able to use you then then I I should be able to use you then then I I should be able to use you because we're slightly bigger than them. because we're slightly bigger than them. because we're slightly bigger than them. and then someone slightly bigger. And and then someone slightly bigger. And and then someone slightly bigger. And then fast forward a few years, it's then fast forward a few years, it's then fast forward a few years, it's like, oh, you've got some very big like, oh, you've got some very big like, oh, you've got some very big companies who've raised hundreds of companies who've raised hundreds of companies who've raised hundreds of millions of dollars and they've kind of millions of dollars and they've kind of millions of dollars and they've kind of just organically grown with you. And just organically grown with you. And just organically grown with you. And then it's like, oh, okay, like we're then it's like, oh, okay, like we're then it's like, oh, okay, like we're supporting these companies who are quite supporting these companies who are quite supporting these companies who are quite large and substantial, pushing large large and substantial, pushing large large and substantial, pushing large amounts of money through their affiliate amounts of money through their affiliate amounts of money through their affiliate programs.

programs. programs. >> What would be great is if we could start >> What would be great is if we could start >> What would be great is if we could start to target and acquire more like that. to target and acquire more like that. to target and acquire more like that. >> Right. >> Right. >> Right. >> Right. So if you look at like your and I >> Right. So if you look at like your and I >> Right. So if you look at like your and I think this is this is kind of like the think this is this is kind of like the think this is this is kind of like the the natural sort of healthy evolution of the natural sort of healthy evolution of the natural sort of healthy evolution of a PLG company is you start you know with a PLG company is you start you know with a PLG company is you start you know with these smaller companies and then you these smaller companies and then you these smaller companies and then you slowly evolve and grow and some of those slowly evolve and grow and some of those slowly evolve and grow and some of those customers evolve and grow with you and customers evolve and grow with you and customers evolve and grow with you and faster than you. Um and then you get to faster than you. Um and then you get to faster than you. Um and then you get to a point where it's like your feature a point where it's like your feature a point where it's like your feature start starts to like slowly have to start starts to like slowly have to start starts to like slowly have to appeal to those guys or you just let appeal to those guys or you just let appeal to those guys or you just let them turn out. But yeah, you're trying them turn out. But yeah, you're trying them turn out. But yeah, you're trying to figure out, okay, like if we could to figure out, okay, like if we could to figure out, okay, like if we could replicate our top 10 or top 20 best replicate our top 10 or top 20 best replicate our top 10 or top 20 best customers, customers, customers, like our our our our like our our our our like our our our our biggest customer is worth 1,400 biggest customer is worth 1,400 biggest customer is worth 1,400 of our entry- level customers, right? Is of our entry- level customers, right? Is of our entry- level customers, right? Is you try to figure out, oh, how can you you try to figure out, oh, how can you you try to figure out, oh, how can you replicate those? That's sort of the replicate those? That's sort of the replicate those? That's sort of the mental math that I think that naturally mental math that I think that naturally mental math that I think that naturally goes on. Um, but we haven't cracked the goes on. Um, but we haven't cracked the goes on. Um, but we haven't cracked the nut yet in terms of figuring out like, nut yet in terms of figuring out like, nut yet in terms of figuring out like, okay, how how do you go and just get okay, how how do you go and just get okay, how how do you go and just get these people these people these people when they're already that big, right?

when they're already that big, right? when they're already that big, right? Because you can show like, well, we can Because you can show like, well, we can Because you can show like, well, we can support people your size and and do what support people your size and and do what support people your size and and do what people your size need. Um, but how do we people your size need. Um, but how do we people your size need. Um, but how do we get you when you're big as opposed to, get you when you're big as opposed to, get you when you're big as opposed to, well, you were so small, you started well, you were so small, you started well, you were so small, you started with us and then and then you grew. Um, with us and then and then you grew. Um, with us and then and then you grew. Um, so yeah, trying to, you know, trying to so yeah, trying to, you know, trying to so yeah, trying to, you know, trying to figure out like cold email and and cold figure out like cold email and and cold figure out like cold email and and cold outreach, whether it's by email or outreach, whether it's by email or outreach, whether it's by email or whether it's LinkedIn DMs or whether it's LinkedIn DMs or whether it's LinkedIn DMs or accountbased marketing and all these new accountbased marketing and all these new accountbased marketing and all these new terms and acronyms that we didn't really terms and acronyms that we didn't really terms and acronyms that we didn't really know about before. Um, trying to build know about before. Um, trying to build know about before. Um, trying to build that process for not just outreach, but that process for not just outreach, but that process for not just outreach, but then also the way people buy, the then also the way people buy, the then also the way people buy, the experience that they expect is is experience that they expect is is experience that they expect is is different if they're used to buying different if they're used to buying different if they're used to buying things SLG as opposed to PLG. So the things SLG as opposed to PLG. So the things SLG as opposed to PLG. So the culture is a little bit different um culture is a little bit different um culture is a little bit different um from like a procurement perspective. from like a procurement perspective. from like a procurement perspective. They might even use the term procurement They might even use the term procurement They might even use the term procurement right as a as like right as a as like right as a as like >> as opposed to someone self-s served >> as opposed to someone self-s served >> as opposed to someone self-s served indie hacker or whatever at the other indie hacker or whatever at the other indie hacker or whatever at the other end of the spectrum they don't think end of the spectrum they don't think end of the spectrum they don't think about terms like procurement but uh about terms like procurement but uh about terms like procurement but uh >> they actively run away from it >> they actively run away from it >> they actively run away from it >> yeah 100% with with good reason. Yeah.

>> yeah 100% with with good reason. Yeah. >> yeah 100% with with good reason. Yeah. >> Yeah. I see this is something we learned >> Yeah. I see this is something we learned >> Yeah. I see this is something we learned or I learned at LogMe In that that or I learned at LogMe In that that or I learned at LogMe In that that company did really well and I think this company did really well and I think this company did really well and I think this is a I saw it at a smaller scale at my is a I saw it at a smaller scale at my is a I saw it at a smaller scale at my first startup Bold Chat which was very first startup Bold Chat which was very first startup Bold Chat which was very much premium and PLG. Um very similar to much premium and PLG. Um very similar to much premium and PLG. Um very similar to the go to market strategy at Hunter but the go to market strategy at Hunter but the go to market strategy at Hunter but we got to a point where as we tried to we got to a point where as we tried to we got to a point where as we tried to scale sales it was harder. There was a scale sales it was harder. There was a scale sales it was harder. There was a friction there that wasn't obvious. Now friction there that wasn't obvious. Now friction there that wasn't obvious. Now this is many years ago. So then we get this is many years ago. So then we get this is many years ago. So then we get acquired, we go to LogMen. LogMe in is acquired, we go to LogMen. LogMe in is acquired, we go to LogMen. LogMe in is now like you know one of the most now like you know one of the most now like you know one of the most well-known brands in the world when it well-known brands in the world when it well-known brands in the world when it came to PLG and you know they were I came to PLG and you know they were I came to PLG and you know they were I think the first publicly traded company think the first publicly traded company think the first publicly traded company that was able to you know replicate that was able to you know replicate that was able to you know replicate premium success across a lot of premium success across a lot of premium success across a lot of different things. So like they were you different things. So like they were you different things. So like they were you know we got to see this at scale and one know we got to see this at scale and one know we got to see this at scale and one of the challenges was when you do have a of the challenges was when you do have a of the challenges was when you do have a big healthy sales team but you also have big healthy sales team but you also have big healthy sales team but you also have this conduit of free users free signups. this conduit of free users free signups. this conduit of free users free signups. If you don't instrument your free signup If you don't instrument your free signup If you don't instrument your free signup process to surface enough information to process to surface enough information to process to surface enough information to feed your sales team the ones they feed your sales team the ones they feed your sales team the ones they should focus on. Then what it ends up should focus on. Then what it ends up should focus on. Then what it ends up doing is there's a constant tension doing is there's a constant tension doing is there's a constant tension point in the company of sales saying no point in the company of sales saying no point in the company of sales saying no no no no you we need marketing to drive no no no you we need marketing to drive no no no you we need marketing to drive leads not users leads not users leads not users >> and then you know you know the the >> and then you know you know the the >> and then you know you know the the product teams are like why like why do product teams are like why like why do product teams are like why like why do we need to artificially and you know we need to artificially and you know we need to artificially and you know delay a sales you know delay the delay a sales you know delay the delay a sales you know delay the purchase process and so what happened purchase process and so what happened purchase process and so what happened was I got to see it scale when you have was I got to see it scale when you have was I got to see it scale when you have a large sales team trying to hit a

a large sales team trying to hit a a large sales team trying to hit a number trying to grow their revenue number trying to grow their revenue number trying to grow their revenue they're trying to figure out what piece they're trying to figure out what piece they're trying to figure out what piece of the pie is deflecting and it's self-s of the pie is deflecting and it's self-s of the pie is deflecting and it's self-s serve and so there ends up inevitably serve and so there ends up inevitably serve and so there ends up inevitably being a tipping point where being a tipping point where being a tipping point where >> you have to decide are you PLG or are >> you have to decide are you PLG or are >> you have to decide are you PLG or are you salesled you salesled you salesled >> and one of them has to win. I don't >> and one of them has to win. I don't >> and one of them has to win. I don't think you can do 50/50. Like if you're think you can do 50/50. Like if you're think you can do 50/50. Like if you're not 6040 you're you're in the middle of not 6040 you're you're in the middle of not 6040 you're you're in the middle of a mess. I think I a mess. I think I a mess. I think I >> I've I've seen it play out within a >> I've I've seen it play out within a >> I've I've seen it play out within a product group. I've seen it play out at product group. I've seen it play out at product group. I've seen it play out at a corporate level. I've seen it play out a corporate level. I've seen it play out a corporate level. I've seen it play out at small companies where they hit that at small companies where they hit that at small companies where they hit that inflection point weirdly early. I I've inflection point weirdly early. I I've inflection point weirdly early. I I've I'm personally a big proponent of PLG. I'm personally a big proponent of PLG. I'm personally a big proponent of PLG. I'm not against sales. I just find I I'm not against sales. I just find I I'm not against sales. I just find I like the motion of making sure your like the motion of making sure your like the motion of making sure your customers can do what they need to do in customers can do what they need to do in customers can do what they need to do in a self-s served way. Keep the keep the a self-s served way. Keep the keep the a self-s served way. Keep the keep the the price points as low as possible to the price points as low as possible to the price points as low as possible to keep the flywheel moving and then find keep the flywheel moving and then find keep the flywheel moving and then find the right way to feather sales into the right way to feather sales into the right way to feather sales into that. And that is a harder way to do that. And that is a harder way to do that. And that is a harder way to do sales, but I think it's a better way to sales, but I think it's a better way to sales, but I think it's a better way to keep high velocity growth, not having to keep high velocity growth, not having to keep high velocity growth, not having to push your price points up. And because push your price points up. And because push your price points up. And because once you start to have to feed your once you start to have to feed your once you start to have to feed your sales team, it it forces changes and sales team, it it forces changes and sales team, it it forces changes and shifts in your business model that you shifts in your business model that you shifts in your business model that you probably didn't anticipate. Your dollar probably didn't anticipate. Your dollar probably didn't anticipate. Your dollar value has to go up in order to continue value has to go up in order to continue value has to go up in order to continue to justify the procurement processes and to justify the procurement processes and to justify the procurement processes and the BDRs and all of that. And it's um the BDRs and all of that. And it's um the BDRs and all of that. And it's um Yeah. And I think I wish there was more Yeah. And I think I wish there was more Yeah. And I think I wish there was more material out here about this specific material out here about this specific material out here about this specific problem because I feel like problem because I feel like problem because I feel like >> this transition kind of >> this transition kind of >> this transition kind of >> Yeah. Well, and it's like make the >> Yeah. Well, and it's like make the >> Yeah. Well, and it's like make the conscious decision. Are you making a conscious decision. Are you making a conscious decision. Are you making a transition or transition or transition or are you are should you not give up your

are you are should you not give up your are you are should you not give up your PLG motion in favor of adding more PLG motion in favor of adding more PLG motion in favor of adding more sales? Right? At some point, you just sales? Right? At some point, you just sales? Right? At some point, you just have to draw the line. It's a company have to draw the line. It's a company have to draw the line. It's a company culture decision. I'm not saying either culture decision. I'm not saying either culture decision. I'm not saying either choice is wrong. It's just choice is wrong. It's just choice is wrong. It's just >> y >> y >> y >> who do you want to be? You can't >> who do you want to be? You can't >> who do you want to be? You can't >> you can't make everybody happy. >> you can't make everybody happy. >> you can't make everybody happy. >> Um >> Um >> Um >> yeah. >> yeah. >> yeah. >> Yeah. It's a really interesting problem. >> Yeah. It's a really interesting problem. >> Yeah. It's a really interesting problem. It obviously it logged me and it It obviously it logged me and it It obviously it logged me and it happened way later because the sales happened way later because the sales happened way later because the sales team was team was team was >> gosh I think when we were dealing with >> gosh I think when we were dealing with >> gosh I think when we were dealing with this was like three to 500 people so this was like three to 500 people so this was like three to 500 people so it's a big team. I've seen it also hit it's a big team. I've seen it also hit it's a big team. I've seen it also hit people at five people in a sales. So people at five people in a sales. So people at five people in a sales. So it's like it it's not about scale. It's it's like it it's not about scale. It's it's like it it's not about scale. It's there's something in the business model there's something in the business model there's something in the business model that that changes that. that that changes that. that that changes that. >> Yeah. Probably something to do with the >> Yeah. Probably something to do with the >> Yeah. Probably something to do with the nature of the customers that you're nature of the customers that you're nature of the customers that you're serving or something like that. like serving or something like that. like serving or something like that. like there's certain industries I feel like there's certain industries I feel like there's certain industries I feel like that probably don't have many or as many that probably don't have many or as many that probably don't have many or as many like indie hacker or or or solar like indie hacker or or or solar like indie hacker or or or solar soloreneur small business type and it soloreneur small business type and it soloreneur small business type and it maybe it lends itself more to larger you maybe it lends itself more to larger you maybe it lends itself more to larger you know deal sizes or I'm I'm hypothesizing know deal sizes or I'm I'm hypothesizing know deal sizes or I'm I'm hypothesizing but but but >> yeah no at some point like especially if >> yeah no at some point like especially if >> yeah no at some point like especially if you're multi-product or if you know I you're multi-product or if you know I you're multi-product or if you know I think a lot of it comes down to if you think a lot of it comes down to if you think a lot of it comes down to if you decide you're going to go after decide you're going to go after decide you're going to go after enterprises and you're going to support enterprises and you're going to support enterprises and you're going to support that customer base, that customer base, that customer base, you have to start to figure this out you have to start to figure this out you have to start to figure this out because I think you can't do both. Well, because I think you can't do both. Well, because I think you can't do both. Well, if you try to go after enterprise, they if you try to go after enterprise, they if you try to go after enterprise, they almost don't trust you if your price almost don't trust you if your price almost don't trust you if your price point is PLG oriented. And then you end point is PLG oriented. And then you end point is PLG oriented. And then you end up having to add all of the um up having to add all of the um up having to add all of the um infrastructure within your org to infrastructure within your org to infrastructure within your org to support the RFP process and all the support the RFP process and all the support the RFP process and all the stuff that they just can't say no to as

stuff that they just can't say no to as stuff that they just can't say no to as an enterprise. They have to do it, an enterprise. They have to do it, an enterprise. They have to do it, right? So yeah, it's it's all that type right? So yeah, it's it's all that type right? So yeah, it's it's all that type of stuff that just forces you to of stuff that just forces you to of stuff that just forces you to re-evaluate re-evaluate re-evaluate >> your price points. And I think that's to >> your price points. And I think that's to >> your price points. And I think that's to me that's where the tension comes in. me that's where the tension comes in. me that's where the tension comes in. It's like really when it's forcing you It's like really when it's forcing you It's like really when it's forcing you to artificially raise prices, not to artificially raise prices, not to artificially raise prices, not because your SMB customer because your SMB customer because your SMB customer can justify that cost, but rather can justify that cost, but rather can justify that cost, but rather because if you don't do that, it's going because if you don't do that, it's going because if you don't do that, it's going to mess up your enterprise deals. to mess up your enterprise deals. to mess up your enterprise deals. >> The psych the psychology of your >> The psych the psychology of your >> The psych the psychology of your enterprise customers will Yeah. They'll enterprise customers will Yeah. They'll enterprise customers will Yeah. They'll they'll have an aversion to your low they'll have an aversion to your low they'll have an aversion to your low prices. Oh, that's not for me. prices. Oh, that's not for me. prices. Oh, that's not for me. >> Yeah. Well, this is so this is free. I >> Yeah. Well, this is so this is free. I >> Yeah. Well, this is so this is free. I don't want a free product. I want like don't want a free product. I want like don't want a free product. I want like >> talk to sales. I don't even want to see >> talk to sales. I don't even want to see >> talk to sales. I don't even want to see the price if I can't just talk to sales. the price if I can't just talk to sales. the price if I can't just talk to sales. Yeah, there's that's the other thing is Yeah, there's that's the other thing is Yeah, there's that's the other thing is like getting enterprises to buy by by like getting enterprises to buy by by like getting enterprises to buy by by themselves is not easy. Uh themselves is not easy. Uh themselves is not easy. Uh >> yeah, one of the the challenges that we >> yeah, one of the the challenges that we >> yeah, one of the the challenges that we found is sort of the the you know found is sort of the the you know found is sort of the the you know enterprise demo or whatever is you'll enterprise demo or whatever is you'll enterprise demo or whatever is you'll have self-s served type customers using have self-s served type customers using have self-s served type customers using that as a means to talk to somebody to that as a means to talk to somebody to that as a means to talk to somebody to get help on something. I want to talk to get help on something. I want to talk to get help on something. I want to talk to somebody and it's like, "Oh, but this somebody and it's like, "Oh, but this somebody and it's like, "Oh, but this this funnel wasn't really meant for you, this funnel wasn't really meant for you, this funnel wasn't really meant for you, but I mean, I'll talk to you because, but I mean, I'll talk to you because, but I mean, I'll talk to you because, you know, I don't want to say say get you know, I don't want to say say get you know, I don't want to say say get lost, but uh yeah, if you're someone lost, but uh yeah, if you're someone lost, but uh yeah, if you're someone coming in and it's like, okay, very coming in and it's like, okay, very coming in and it's like, okay, very clearly you're going to stay on our $49 clearly you're going to stay on our $49 clearly you're going to stay on our $49 a month plan. You're not going to become a month plan. You're not going to become a month plan. You're not going to become the, you know, $5,000 a year kind of the, you know, $5,000 a year kind of the, you know, $5,000 a year kind of customer." But yeah, that's one of the customer." But yeah, that's one of the customer." But yeah, that's one of the challenges.

challenges. challenges. >> Exactly. Yeah, this is exactly one of >> Exactly. Yeah, this is exactly one of >> Exactly. Yeah, this is exactly one of those friction points we were dealing those friction points we were dealing those friction points we were dealing with the other day. People would submit with the other day. People would submit with the other day. People would submit our enterprise form and at the end of our enterprise form and at the end of our enterprise form and at the end of the month we'd review the number of the month we'd review the number of the month we'd review the number of those enterprise forms that actually those enterprise forms that actually those enterprise forms that actually generated an enterprise opportunity. It generated an enterprise opportunity. It generated an enterprise opportunity. It was like near zero every month just was like near zero every month just was like near zero every month just >> yeah they were just using it to try to >> yeah they were just using it to try to >> yeah they were just using it to try to stimulate conversations to sales which stimulate conversations to sales which stimulate conversations to sales which was uh or support. They were trying to was uh or support. They were trying to was uh or support. They were trying to back it was like we've got the greatest back it was like we've got the greatest back it was like we've got the greatest support. You can talk to somebody who support. You can talk to somebody who support. You can talk to somebody who knows the product anytime you want knows the product anytime you want knows the product anytime you want except like midnight. Uh, and uh, yeah, except like midnight. Uh, and uh, yeah, except like midnight. Uh, and uh, yeah, and it just I don't know, it just and it just I don't know, it just and it just I don't know, it just doesn't sometimes resonate with people. doesn't sometimes resonate with people. doesn't sometimes resonate with people. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Today's episode is brought to you by >> Today's episode is brought to you by >> Today's episode is brought to you by Hunter.io, the B2B lead generation Hunter.io, the B2B lead generation Hunter.io, the B2B lead generation platform made for every professional. platform made for every professional. platform made for every professional. Whether it's prospecting, fundraising, Whether it's prospecting, fundraising, Whether it's prospecting, fundraising, recruiting, link building, or just recruiting, link building, or just recruiting, link building, or just trying to connect with the right people, trying to connect with the right people, trying to connect with the right people, Hunter makes it easy. Hunter makes it easy. Hunter makes it easy. >> All right, so you sound like you're a >> All right, so you sound like you're a >> All right, so you sound like you're a died in the wool product guy. What's a died in the wool product guy. What's a died in the wool product guy. What's a non business product you're obsessed non business product you're obsessed non business product you're obsessed with right now? with right now? with right now? a non-b businessiness product that I'm a non-b businessiness product that I'm a non-b businessiness product that I'm obsessed with right now. Almost obsessed with right now. Almost obsessed with right now. Almost everything is is businessoriented, but everything is is businessoriented, but everything is is businessoriented, but it's kind of like because it's kind of like because it's kind of like because like even the the kind of like hobby like even the the kind of like hobby like even the the kind of like hobby stuff that I I I stuff that I I I stuff that I I I might play around with. It's it's like might play around with. It's it's like might play around with. It's it's like I used to run a media production company I used to run a media production company I used to run a media production company and and it reminds me of back in the day and and it reminds me of back in the day and and it reminds me of back in the day when it was like what would I like buy when it was like what would I like buy when it was like what would I like buy for myself or you know like my mom would for myself or you know like my mom would for myself or you know like my mom would be like what do you want for birthday be like what do you want for birthday be like what do you want for birthday this year and it's like I don't really this year and it's like I don't really this year and it's like I don't really want anything except there's like this want anything except there's like this want anything except there's like this new camera that I'd love to get but like

new camera that I'd love to get but like new camera that I'd love to get but like I'm not going to you're not going to buy I'm not going to you're not going to buy I'm not going to you're not going to buy me a $5,000 camera or something like me a $5,000 camera or something like me a $5,000 camera or something like that right so I'm still like that where that right so I'm still like that where that right so I'm still like that where like like like >> it's like oh what are the things that >> it's like oh what are the things that >> it's like oh what are the things that I'm like playing around with is it's I'm like playing around with is it's I'm like playing around with is it's like oh like you know there's these new like oh like you know there's these new like oh like you know there's these new AI tools for like creating video or AI tools for like creating video or AI tools for like creating video or image or that I'm playing around with or image or that I'm playing around with or image or that I'm playing around with or that's, you know, um the kind of stuff that's, you know, um the kind of stuff that's, you know, um the kind of stuff I'm playing around with. Um and then I'm playing around with. Um and then I'm playing around with. Um and then like little hobby projects of my own like little hobby projects of my own like little hobby projects of my own that like I'm obsessed with, you know, that like I'm obsessed with, you know, that like I'm obsessed with, you know, but uh I'm maybe a bit of context. So but uh I'm maybe a bit of context. So but uh I'm maybe a bit of context. So I'm a I'm a father of three. My kids are I'm a I'm a father of three. My kids are I'm a I'm a father of three. My kids are five, three and one. five, three and one. five, three and one. >> And so my world revolves around around >> And so my world revolves around around >> And so my world revolves around around them and you know the types of things them and you know the types of things them and you know the types of things that they're playing around what they're that they're playing around what they're that they're playing around what they're using or using or using or >> I mean that's your hobby. Yeah. Right. >> I mean that's your hobby. Yeah. Right. >> I mean that's your hobby. Yeah. Right. Having three children under the age of Having three children under the age of Having three children under the age of 10 is just uh is a handful. But wow, 10 is just uh is a handful. But wow, 10 is just uh is a handful. But wow, what great ages, too. Like you're what great ages, too. Like you're what great ages, too. Like you're >> Yeah, >> Yeah, >> Yeah, >> you're in the thick of some exciting >> you're in the thick of some exciting >> you're in the thick of some exciting times. Yeah. Well, okay. We'll we'll times. Yeah. Well, okay. We'll we'll times. Yeah. Well, okay. We'll we'll check back in check back in check back in five years and we'll find out how your five years and we'll find out how your five years and we'll find out how your hobbies are going then. hobbies are going then. hobbies are going then. >> Yeah. Yeah. Well, I do I mean my hobbies >> Yeah. Yeah. Well, I do I mean my hobbies >> Yeah. Yeah. Well, I do I mean my hobbies are like I I so I'm not a coder. Um but are like I I so I'm not a coder. Um but are like I I so I'm not a coder. Um but like on a hobbyist basis I am. And so like on a hobbyist basis I am. And so like on a hobbyist basis I am. And so like that's where I will spend my sort like that's where I will spend my sort like that's where I will spend my sort of late nights. So, after the kids go to of late nights. So, after the kids go to of late nights. So, after the kids go to bed, I'll pull out the laptop and I'll bed, I'll pull out the laptop and I'll bed, I'll pull out the laptop and I'll mostly kind of be playing around with AI mostly kind of be playing around with AI mostly kind of be playing around with AI and seeing the different things that and seeing the different things that and seeing the different things that that I can build. And um one of the that I can build. And um one of the that I can build. And um one of the things uh I'm working on right now things uh I'm working on right now things uh I'm working on right now >> is um and this is how crazy AI is. I' >> is um and this is how crazy AI is. I' >> is um and this is how crazy AI is. I' I'd never like built a production I'd never like built a production I'd never like built a production application before. Um never built a application before. Um never built a application before. Um never built a mobile app before, but I built a mobile mobile app before, but I built a mobile mobile app before, but I built a mobile app that uses AI to generate audio

app that uses AI to generate audio app that uses AI to generate audio stories for my kids for bedtime. And so stories for my kids for bedtime. And so stories for my kids for bedtime. And so they can basically select like so they they can basically select like so they they can basically select like so they can put their names in. They got their can put their names in. They got their can put their names in. They got their friends names in it. So they can select friends names in it. So they can select friends names in it. So they can select the name of the characters that they the name of the characters that they the name of the characters that they want to be in the story. Select a genre want to be in the story. Select a genre want to be in the story. Select a genre and then they submit it. And then a and then they submit it. And then a and then they submit it. And then a couple minutes later it spits back an couple minutes later it spits back an couple minutes later it spits back an audio that they can listen to. Kind of audio that they can listen to. Kind of audio that they can listen to. Kind of like a calm or audible story. like a calm or audible story. like a calm or audible story. >> Interesting. >> Interesting. >> Interesting. >> And they're they're they are the >> And they're they're they are the >> And they're they're they are the characters in the story with their characters in the story with their characters in the story with their friends or whoever else they want to friends or whoever else they want to friends or whoever else they want to have in the story. So that's my hobby have in the story. So that's my hobby have in the story. So that's my hobby right now is is building is building right now is is building is building right now is is building is building this thing. Um but uh yeah, other than this thing. Um but uh yeah, other than this thing. Um but uh yeah, other than that it's yeah, my life is even my that it's yeah, my life is even my that it's yeah, my life is even my hobbies are somehow still related to my hobbies are somehow still related to my hobbies are somehow still related to my children. So children. So children. So >> I uh I've certainly been there. Both >> I uh I've certainly been there. Both >> I uh I've certainly been there. Both both mine are now grown and out of the both mine are now grown and out of the both mine are now grown and out of the house and so I'm getting to like house and so I'm getting to like house and so I'm getting to like remember what that was like. Uh remember what that was like. Uh remember what that was like. Uh but with with a grown-up paycheck, which but with with a grown-up paycheck, which but with with a grown-up paycheck, which is kind of nice. Uh is kind of nice. Uh is kind of nice. Uh >> yeah. Awesome. Yeah, it's been fun. So, >> yeah. Awesome. Yeah, it's been fun. So, >> yeah. Awesome. Yeah, it's been fun. So, okay. So, if I So, it's kid related or okay. So, if I So, it's kid related or okay. So, if I So, it's kid related or AI work related. Um, so yeah, you're AI work related. Um, so yeah, you're AI work related. Um, so yeah, you're have you tried doing local LLMs yet?

have you tried doing local LLMs yet? have you tried doing local LLMs yet? >> Is that something you've played with? >> Is that something you've played with? >> Is that something you've played with? >> Um, not extensively. I do remember I >> Um, not extensively. I do remember I >> Um, not extensively. I do remember I can't remember what it was, but there can't remember what it was, but there can't remember what it was, but there was some there was some sort of LLM that was some there was some sort of LLM that was some there was some sort of LLM that I that I did install on my MacBook and I I that I did install on my MacBook and I I that I did install on my MacBook and I was using it very briefly. I use it on a was using it very briefly. I use it on a was using it very briefly. I use it on a light to vibe code. Not vibe code might light to vibe code. Not vibe code might light to vibe code. Not vibe code might be the wrong word, but like to to to get be the wrong word, but like to to to get be the wrong word, but like to to to get coding coding coding assistance or advice because I had no assistance or advice because I had no assistance or advice because I had no internet connection. Uh so um that's but internet connection. Uh so um that's but internet connection. Uh so um that's but that that was a while ago. That was that that was a while ago. That was that that was a while ago. That was before like when things still weren't before like when things still weren't before like when things still weren't quite as good. That was like precursor. quite as good. That was like precursor. quite as good. That was like precursor. So I haven't had any like use case to So I haven't had any like use case to So I haven't had any like use case to really need to use anything like that. really need to use anything like that. really need to use anything like that. Um there is one other uh product that I Um there is one other uh product that I Um there is one other uh product that I have been using. um quite a bit. It's have been using. um quite a bit. It's have been using. um quite a bit. It's called AI Flowat. called AI Flowat. called AI Flowat. Um and it's it's a I don't know how you Um and it's it's a I don't know how you Um and it's it's a I don't know how you would describe it. I think it's would describe it. I think it's would describe it. I think it's basically it's call it like a a node or basically it's call it like a a node or basically it's call it like a a node or graph based. So basically it's like graph based. So basically it's like graph based. So basically it's like you've got like a almost like a graph you've got like a almost like a graph you've got like a almost like a graph paper and you can create nodes and paper and you can create nodes and paper and you can create nodes and allows you to connect different prompts allows you to connect different prompts allows you to connect different prompts together together together >> in like a a user interface.

>> in like a a user interface. >> in like a a user interface. >> Interesting. And so you can basically >> Interesting. And so you can basically >> Interesting. And so you can basically like chain different prompts together. like chain different prompts together. like chain different prompts together. And I use it one for like if I want to And I use it one for like if I want to And I use it one for like if I want to work through like what a prompt I want work through like what a prompt I want work through like what a prompt I want to have be in an app that I'm in the app to have be in an app that I'm in the app to have be in an app that I'm in the app that I'm building or if you wanted to that I'm building or if you wanted to that I'm building or if you wanted to chain prompts together for whatever chain prompts together for whatever chain prompts together for whatever other purpose, content creation, text other purpose, content creation, text other purpose, content creation, text creation, whatever. Um or image creation, whatever. Um or image creation, whatever. Um or image generation. And so for example, you generation. And so for example, you generation. And so for example, you could have uh a text prompt that then could have uh a text prompt that then could have uh a text prompt that then feeds into an image prompt that feeds feeds into an image prompt that feeds feeds into an image prompt that feeds into whatever. you could like get two into whatever. you could like get two into whatever. you could like get two different images together and then feed different images together and then feed different images together and then feed that into a prompt that will do like a that into a prompt that will do like a that into a prompt that will do like a nano banana the new Google image thing. nano banana the new Google image thing. nano banana the new Google image thing. So like So like So like >> um I so as an example uh I made images >> um I so as an example uh I made images >> um I so as an example uh I made images of again of my kids but as Pixar of again of my kids but as Pixar of again of my kids but as Pixar characters. So, I turn them into Pixar characters. So, I turn them into Pixar characters. So, I turn them into Pixar characters and then I'm able to because characters and then I'm able to because characters and then I'm able to because of this Nano Banana thing, I can of this Nano Banana thing, I can of this Nano Banana thing, I can basically create like scenes because one basically create like scenes because one basically create like scenes because one of the things that Nano Banana does of the things that Nano Banana does of the things that Nano Banana does really well, so much better than like a really well, so much better than like a really well, so much better than like a lot of the other sort of um models out lot of the other sort of um models out lot of the other sort of um models out there is character consistency and scene there is character consistency and scene there is character consistency and scene consistency.

consistency. consistency. >> And so, you could have an image of these >> And so, you could have an image of these >> And so, you could have an image of these characters. So, one of them is like characters. So, one of them is like characters. So, one of them is like these my daughter and my niece as Pixar these my daughter and my niece as Pixar these my daughter and my niece as Pixar characters in a podcast studio characters in a podcast studio characters in a podcast studio and then I could be like change the and then I could be like change the and then I could be like change the camera angle. So, like you've got like camera angle. So, like you've got like camera angle. So, like you've got like the wide shot and then you got the the wide shot and then you got the the wide shot and then you got the close-up on one and then close up on the close-up on one and then close up on the close-up on one and then close up on the other and then over the shoulder shot other and then over the shoulder shot other and then over the shoulder shot and it's crazy like the little So, and it's crazy like the little So, and it's crazy like the little So, basically then I can like create little basically then I can like create little basically then I can like create little cartoons of them um and add voices cartoons of them um and add voices cartoons of them um and add voices voiceovers to it. So I could create voiceovers to it. So I could create voiceovers to it. So I could create little, you know, cartoon scenarios for little, you know, cartoon scenarios for little, you know, cartoon scenarios for them and things like that. So yeah, AI them and things like that. So yeah, AI them and things like that. So yeah, AI AI flow chat um is this tool that I've AI flow chat um is this tool that I've AI flow chat um is this tool that I've been playing around with to to create been playing around with to to create been playing around with to to create all that stuff. all that stuff. all that stuff. >> I'll have to find family members with >> I'll have to find family members with >> I'll have to find family members with young children because some of this young children because some of this young children because some of this sounds like a lot of fun actually. Uh sounds like a lot of fun actually. Uh sounds like a lot of fun actually. Uh >> yeah, >> yeah, >> yeah, >> cut personalized animation for your kids >> cut personalized animation for your kids >> cut personalized animation for your kids is uh very is uh very is uh very >> But even also for for marketing though, >> But even also for for marketing though, >> But even also for for marketing though, I I think there is a business use case. I I think there is a business use case. I I think there is a business use case. you no longer need to hire a model to do you no longer need to hire a model to do you no longer need to hire a model to do a photo shoot to make a video or still a photo shoot to make a video or still a photo shoot to make a video or still photography or whatever. You could photography or whatever. You could photography or whatever. You could create AI models. Um, and then with this create AI models. Um, and then with this create AI models. Um, and then with this tool, what you could do is, for example, tool, what you could do is, for example, tool, what you could do is, for example, you could have one image of just a you could have one image of just a you could have one image of just a person just, you know, their full body person just, you know, their full body person just, you know, their full body standing, right? That's one image. And standing, right? That's one image. And standing, right? That's one image. And then the other image could be just like then the other image could be just like then the other image could be just like a a stick character in a pose. You a a stick character in a pose. You a a stick character in a pose. You combine those and then feed it to Nano combine those and then feed it to Nano combine those and then feed it to Nano Banana with this AI flowchart. And then Banana with this AI flowchart. And then Banana with this AI flowchart. And then it'll put this character in this pose or it'll put this character in this pose or it'll put this character in this pose or from this camera angle and it it'll be

from this camera angle and it it'll be from this camera angle and it it'll be consistent and then you can feed that consistent and then you can feed that consistent and then you can feed that into tools like I haven't used VO but into tools like I haven't used VO but into tools like I haven't used VO but like runway ML for example and then you like runway ML for example and then you like runway ML for example and then you can animate that. So like you imagine can animate that. So like you imagine can animate that. So like you imagine like if you want to make a car like if you want to make a car like if you want to make a car commercial even or like you know um it's commercial even or like you know um it's commercial even or like you know um it's something I'm trying to think about like something I'm trying to think about like something I'm trying to think about like for rewardful for ad creative or just for rewardful for ad creative or just for rewardful for ad creative or just like marketing marketing creative social like marketing marketing creative social like marketing marketing creative social content etc. content etc. content etc. >> It's like oh we we could make like kind >> It's like oh we we could make like kind >> It's like oh we we could make like kind of a fun of a fun of a fun ad like an actual like video ad that ad like an actual like video ad that ad like an actual like video ad that might cost us 30 grand if it was my might cost us 30 grand if it was my might cost us 30 grand if it was my media my video production company doing media my video production company doing media my video production company doing it back in the day. Maybe you charge it back in the day. Maybe you charge it back in the day. Maybe you charge tens of thousands for this video, but tens of thousands for this video, but tens of thousands for this video, but now actually you could do it for a now actually you could do it for a now actually you could do it for a couple hundred dollars and a bit of your couple hundred dollars and a bit of your couple hundred dollars and a bit of your time if if that, you know what I mean? time if if that, you know what I mean? time if if that, you know what I mean? Like so that's wild. That's uh yeah, it Like so that's wild. That's uh yeah, it Like so that's wild. That's uh yeah, it really changes the way you think about really changes the way you think about really changes the way you think about video production for startups as video production for startups as video production for startups as commercials. Actually, the self-s serve commercials. Actually, the self-s serve commercials. Actually, the self-s serve TV advertising through streaming. Now, TV advertising through streaming. Now, TV advertising through streaming. Now, when you combine the power of what you when you combine the power of what you when you combine the power of what you just described in terms of creating just described in terms of creating just described in terms of creating commercials with the power of commercials with the power of commercials with the power of self-service, like we're self-service, like we're self-service, like we're really close to entrepreneurs being able really close to entrepreneurs being able really close to entrepreneurs being able to create their own TV commercials and to create their own TV commercials and to create their own TV commercials and then manage it like they do Google ads.

then manage it like they do Google ads. then manage it like they do Google ads. Uh, which is really fascinating to think Uh, which is really fascinating to think Uh, which is really fascinating to think that we're as a as a startup or an early that we're as a as a startup or an early that we're as a as a startup or an early stage company or a small business that stage company or a small business that stage company or a small business that that's actually something that's on the that's actually something that's on the that's actually something that's on the table for the first time really. Uh table for the first time really. Uh table for the first time really. Uh >> well just think when you think about the >> well just think when you think about the >> well just think when you think about the distribution that you have available now distribution that you have available now distribution that you have available now on YouTube it's it's far exceeds on YouTube it's it's far exceeds on YouTube it's it's far exceeds anything that any TV current TV channel anything that any TV current TV channel anything that any TV current TV channel has. has. has. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Um if you can you know if you can make >> Um if you can you know if you can make >> Um if you can you know if you can make the creative that's going to convert or the creative that's going to convert or the creative that's going to convert or get attention like so that's a whole get attention like so that's a whole get attention like so that's a whole different conversation in terms of we've different conversation in terms of we've different conversation in terms of we've done a we've experimented a little bit done a we've experimented a little bit done a we've experimented a little bit with YouTube ads. Um, and it's difficult with YouTube ads. Um, and it's difficult with YouTube ads. Um, and it's difficult to like on a smaller scale business, you to like on a smaller scale business, you to like on a smaller scale business, you you need to be, I think, pretty big to you need to be, I think, pretty big to you need to be, I think, pretty big to get into that kind of brand space, but get into that kind of brand space, but get into that kind of brand space, but you you could create very high quality you you could create very high quality you you could create very high quality um content and with YouTube, the um content and with YouTube, the um content and with YouTube, the distribution that you potentially have distribution that you potentially have distribution that you potentially have is, you know, enormous. like you could is, you know, enormous. like you could is, you know, enormous. like you could if you could afford it, you could have a if you could afford it, you could have a if you could afford it, you could have a YouTube or a Super Bowl sized audience YouTube or a Super Bowl sized audience YouTube or a Super Bowl sized audience any day of the week if if you wanted to any day of the week if if you wanted to any day of the week if if you wanted to get access to that, if you had the get access to that, if you had the get access to that, if you had the budget for it, budget for it, budget for it, >> right? Speaking of which, so let's talk >> right? Speaking of which, so let's talk >> right? Speaking of which, so let's talk a little bit about the 0 to 100. Is this a little bit about the 0 to 100. Is this a little bit about the 0 to 100. Is this how you would try to go about getting how you would try to go about getting how you would try to go about getting your first customers or do you prefer your first customers or do you prefer your first customers or do you prefer because I know you said something about because I know you said something about because I know you said something about trying a little cold email. You're not trying a little cold email. You're not trying a little cold email. You're not doing a ton of cold email, which is doing a ton of cold email, which is doing a ton of cold email, which is fine. I'm not here to convince everybody fine. I'm not here to convince everybody fine. I'm not here to convince everybody they should do cold email, but like is they should do cold email, but like is they should do cold email, but like is this is this changing the way you think this is this changing the way you think this is this changing the way you think about getting those first customers?

about getting those first customers? about getting those first customers? Yes, but not um I probably wouldn't do Yes, but not um I probably wouldn't do Yes, but not um I probably wouldn't do YouTube ads if I was starting something. YouTube ads if I was starting something. YouTube ads if I was starting something. Um, one thing that I've been I've been Um, one thing that I've been I've been Um, one thing that I've been I've been uh watching on YouTube, I've been uh watching on YouTube, I've been uh watching on YouTube, I've been watching a lot of videos about a lot of watching a lot of videos about a lot of watching a lot of videos about a lot of the like what they call like UGC type the like what they call like UGC type the like what they call like UGC type >> um AI content or whatever that people >> um AI content or whatever that people >> um AI content or whatever that people are are creating and mostly this that are are creating and mostly this that are are creating and mostly this that seems to be this is applied in consumer seems to be this is applied in consumer seems to be this is applied in consumer space. So it could be can be consumer space. So it could be can be consumer space. So it could be can be consumer packaged goods or like mobile apps but packaged goods or like mobile apps but packaged goods or like mobile apps but BTOC type products and these different BTOC type products and these different BTOC type products and these different AI influencers that people are using to AI influencers that people are using to AI influencers that people are using to to market these products. Um actually a to market these products. Um actually a to market these products. Um actually a customer of ours company called Arcads customer of ours company called Arcads customer of ours company called Arcads Arcads.ai AI I think they are um and Arcads.ai AI I think they are um and Arcads.ai AI I think they are um and they're one of the leading products in they're one of the leading products in they're one of the leading products in this space where like you can create this space where like you can create this space where like you can create these AI avatars and then they'll pitch these AI avatars and then they'll pitch these AI avatars and then they'll pitch a product for you and that could be for a product for you and that could be for a product for you and that could be for ads but also what people are doing is ads but also what people are doing is ads but also what people are doing is they're creating these AI influencers they're creating these AI influencers they're creating these AI influencers and there's actually a YouTube video I and there's actually a YouTube video I and there's actually a YouTube video I watched today and it's kind of meta. So, watched today and it's kind of meta. So, watched today and it's kind of meta. So, this guy was talking about how to use this guy was talking about how to use this guy was talking about how to use archads and creating this type of archads and creating this type of archads and creating this type of content and it I was watching it and I content and it I was watching it and I content and it I was watching it and I was like was like was like this this guy's AI the guy I'm watching this this guy's AI the guy I'm watching this this guy's AI the guy I'm watching this video and but he so he's so it's this video and but he so he's so it's this video and but he so he's so it's interesting he's talking about like interesting he's talking about like interesting he's talking about like using this content to create BTOC using this content to create BTOC using this content to create BTOC content for for for content for for for content for for for uh organic social but then also paid uh organic social but then also paid uh organic social but then also paid social um but then the video he's doing social um but then the video he's doing social um but then the video he's doing is B2B he's he's pitching a business

is B2B he's he's pitching a business is B2B he's he's pitching a business product product product and in this fashion. If I looked at his and in this fashion. If I looked at his and in this fashion. If I looked at his older videos, it was actually him, but older videos, it was actually him, but older videos, it was actually him, but his newer videos, it's he's he's his newer videos, it's he's he's his newer videos, it's he's he's probably using Hey Jen, another customer probably using Hey Jen, another customer probably using Hey Jen, another customer of ours or one of these types of tools of ours or one of these types of tools of ours or one of these types of tools to to create an avatar of themselves. to to create an avatar of themselves. to to create an avatar of themselves. And then you when you intersperse that And then you when you intersperse that And then you when you intersperse that with like B-roll footage, it's not as with like B-roll footage, it's not as with like B-roll footage, it's not as obvious because you're not on the screen obvious because you're not on the screen obvious because you're not on the screen for as long and then you're switching to for as long and then you're switching to for as long and then you're switching to like the screencast of the product and like the screencast of the product and like the screencast of the product and whatever other B-roll you have, right? whatever other B-roll you have, right? whatever other B-roll you have, right? And so that's that's where my head is And so that's that's where my head is And so that's that's where my head is going is like I think the stuff that going is like I think the stuff that going is like I think the stuff that happens in B TOC is probably precursor happens in B TOC is probably precursor happens in B TOC is probably precursor to what kind of finds its way over to to what kind of finds its way over to to what kind of finds its way over to B2B. B2B. B2B. And so what's happening in in social And so what's happening in in social And so what's happening in in social content on Tik Tok and things like this content on Tik Tok and things like this content on Tik Tok and things like this would probably find its way into YouTube would probably find its way into YouTube would probably find its way into YouTube and LinkedIn. It'll evolve in in its own and LinkedIn. It'll evolve in in its own and LinkedIn. It'll evolve in in its own way that that it works for those way that that it works for those way that that it works for those channels. But yeah, if I was looking to channels. But yeah, if I was looking to channels. But yeah, if I was looking to try and find my first 100 customers, I try and find my first 100 customers, I try and find my first 100 customers, I don't know if that's what I would don't know if that's what I would don't know if that's what I would necessarily necessarily necessarily do. I I I think first 100 it's it's do. I I I think first 100 it's it's do. I I I think first 100 it's it's probably probably probably pretty gritty and because at that stage pretty gritty and because at that stage pretty gritty and because at that stage it's like you're just trying to figure it's like you're just trying to figure it's like you're just trying to figure out like have I built something that out like have I built something that out like have I built something that people even want, people even want, people even want, >> right?

>> right? >> right? >> Before you're trying to really like >> Before you're trying to really like >> Before you're trying to really like scale up like how to get the message out scale up like how to get the message out scale up like how to get the message out there. So it's, you know, your your there. So it's, you know, your your there. So it's, you know, your your product by the time you get to your product by the time you get to your product by the time you get to your 100th customer, your product may have 100th customer, your product may have 100th customer, your product may have changed quite a bit from like your first changed quite a bit from like your first changed quite a bit from like your first 10 or something like that. I think your 10 or something like that. I think your 10 or something like that. I think your your first few customers, it it really your first few customers, it it really your first few customers, it it really is just like grind networking. It could is just like grind networking. It could is just like grind networking. It could be within your existing personal network be within your existing personal network be within your existing personal network that you know people that have this that you know people that have this that you know people that have this particular problem. Cold outreach. Um, particular problem. Cold outreach. Um, particular problem. Cold outreach. Um, hey, I built this thing. It does, you hey, I built this thing. It does, you hey, I built this thing. It does, you know, this kind of thing. Like really know, this kind of thing. Like really know, this kind of thing. Like really trying to have hight touch trying to have hight touch trying to have hight touch relationships. Um like for example the relationships. Um like for example the relationships. Um like for example the the guy who um uses that tool I the guy who um uses that tool I the guy who um uses that tool I referenced a flow chat like I'm talking referenced a flow chat like I'm talking referenced a flow chat like I'm talking to him on Twitter because we engaged on to him on Twitter because we engaged on to him on Twitter because we engaged on Twitter that's how I found out about it Twitter that's how I found out about it Twitter that's how I found out about it and we had like Google Meet calls and and we had like Google Meet calls and and we had like Google Meet calls and stuff like that. So I think that's your stuff like that. So I think that's your stuff like that. So I think that's your first few customers you you basically if first few customers you you basically if first few customers you you basically if if this was like precoid before everyone if this was like precoid before everyone if this was like precoid before everyone just lived on on Zoom and Google Meet, just lived on on Zoom and Google Meet, just lived on on Zoom and Google Meet, >> right? >> right? >> right? >> What you would you would do is you'd >> What you would you would do is you'd >> What you would you would do is you'd actually go out and talk to your ICP in actually go out and talk to your ICP in actually go out and talk to your ICP in person a a lot, right? Like when when person a a lot, right? Like when when person a a lot, right? Like when when Kyle and I were were building Care Kyle and I were were building Care Kyle and I were were building Care Network, the healthcare software um uh Network, the healthcare software um uh Network, the healthcare software um uh business, we talked to a lot of doctors, business, we talked to a lot of doctors, business, we talked to a lot of doctors, a lot a lot a lot of doctors. I think a lot a lot a lot of doctors. I think a lot a lot a lot of doctors. I think you need to be talking to your customer you need to be talking to your customer you need to be talking to your customer every single day. You should be talking every single day. You should be talking every single day. You should be talking to a lot of them and uh even before to a lot of them and uh even before to a lot of them and uh even before you're starting to get them as you're starting to get them as you're starting to get them as customers, just in that sort of product customers, just in that sort of product customers, just in that sort of product development, you should be just talking development, you should be just talking development, you should be just talking to them every single day, not in your to them every single day, not in your to them every single day, not in your head pontificating about what they would head pontificating about what they would head pontificating about what they would think or do. It's like no, no, what think or do. It's like no, no, what think or do. It's like no, no, what would they actually do? give them the would they actually do? give them the would they actually do? give them the product and let them play around with

product and let them play around with product and let them play around with it. And I think in that early stages, it. And I think in that early stages, it. And I think in that early stages, particularly if you are PLG, particularly if you are PLG, particularly if you are PLG, you you you the product and the marketing are kind the product and the marketing are kind the product and the marketing are kind of inextricably linked of inextricably linked of inextricably linked >> because you need to understand how >> because you need to understand how >> because you need to understand how people are using the product and how people are using the product and how people are using the product and how they think about the product so you can they think about the product so you can they think about the product so you can understand how to position the product understand how to position the product understand how to position the product and talk about the product and talk about the product and talk about the product >> right >> right >> right >> in the market, right? So I think yeah >> in the market, right? So I think yeah >> in the market, right? So I think yeah that first phase that you know first that first phase that you know first that first phase that you know first maybe it's 10 or maybe it's 100 maybe it's 10 or maybe it's 100 maybe it's 10 or maybe it's 100 customers it's very like that you're customers it's very like that you're customers it's very like that you're just talking to people and then as I just talking to people and then as I just talking to people and then as I referenced before this idea of this like referenced before this idea of this like referenced before this idea of this like scalable repeatable case studies after scalable repeatable case studies after scalable repeatable case studies after your first 100 customers you probably your first 100 customers you probably your first 100 customers you probably have identified like have identified like have identified like there's probably a lot of like bad fit there's probably a lot of like bad fit there's probably a lot of like bad fit customers that come in and then you're customers that come in and then you're customers that come in and then you're figuring out like oh here's an archetype figuring out like oh here's an archetype figuring out like oh here's an archetype an ICP of a customer that like an ICP of a customer that like an ICP of a customer that like I I can talk to I I can talk to I I can talk to I understand there's a particular I understand there's a particular I understand there's a particular workflow for example that they might workflow for example that they might workflow for example that they might have that my product solves for them. I have that my product solves for them. I have that my product solves for them. I could I could very clearly see okay this could I could very clearly see okay this could I could very clearly see okay this is this is how they could use this is this is how they could use this is this is how they could use this product to solve this particular problem product to solve this particular problem product to solve this particular problem and then you build your kind of go to and then you build your kind of go to and then you build your kind of go to market machine around that that it's market machine around that that it's market machine around that that it's like if if you have this problem my like if if you have this problem my like if if you have this problem my product is the solution it does this and product is the solution it does this and product is the solution it does this and this is the price point or whatever. Um, this is the price point or whatever. Um, this is the price point or whatever. Um, Seth Goden's got a a great line and it's Seth Goden's got a a great line and it's Seth Goden's got a a great line and it's something to the effect of like people something to the effect of like people something to the effect of like people like us do things like this and this is like us do things like this and this is like us do things like this and this is the this is the sort of way you want the this is the sort of way you want the this is the sort of way you want people to think about your your product people to think about your your product people to think about your your product is that like they want to feel like oh I is that like they want to feel like oh I is that like they want to feel like oh I yeah I'm one of you and and I do things

yeah I'm one of you and and I do things yeah I'm one of you and and I do things this this way. this this way. this this way. >> Um, so yeah, that's kind of a a long >> Um, so yeah, that's kind of a a long >> Um, so yeah, that's kind of a a long winding answer, but I I think that's winding answer, but I I think that's winding answer, but I I think that's that's kind of the way you need to that's kind of the way you need to that's kind of the way you need to approach it in those early stages. is a approach it in those early stages. is a approach it in those early stages. is a bit is a bit gritty and trying to scale bit is a bit gritty and trying to scale bit is a bit gritty and trying to scale with like YouTube ads, don't even with like YouTube ads, don't even with like YouTube ads, don't even bother. Like you you you need to figure bother. Like you you you need to figure bother. Like you you you need to figure out that sort of you know repeatable out that sort of you know repeatable out that sort of you know repeatable case study that keeps some keep seeing case study that keeps some keep seeing case study that keeps some keep seeing come in over and over again before you come in over and over again before you come in over and over again before you try and scale. try and scale. try and scale. >> Changing gears a bit here. If you live >> Changing gears a bit here. If you live >> Changing gears a bit here. If you live on LinkedIn as most people who are in on LinkedIn as most people who are in on LinkedIn as most people who are in B2B go to market do these days, you'd B2B go to market do these days, you'd B2B go to market do these days, you'd get the sense that you can't be get the sense that you can't be get the sense that you can't be successful successful successful without certain kinds of tech stacks in without certain kinds of tech stacks in without certain kinds of tech stacks in your go to market. Uh, so what's your go your go to market. Uh, so what's your go your go to market. Uh, so what's your go to architect stack? So let's talk tools. to architect stack? So let's talk tools. to architect stack? So let's talk tools. >> Um, so of course we use rewardful for >> Um, so of course we use rewardful for >> Um, so of course we use rewardful for our own affiliate program, but then we our own affiliate program, but then we our own affiliate program, but then we actually also use it for um tracking actually also use it for um tracking actually also use it for um tracking other channels that we're we're using. other channels that we're we're using. other channels that we're we're using. So we not to get too technical, but So we not to get too technical, but So we not to get too technical, but we'll set up like a 0% commission we'll set up like a 0% commission we'll set up like a 0% commission campaign and then so for like our Google campaign and then so for like our Google campaign and then so for like our Google ads, our Reddit ads, etc., We will use a ads, our Reddit ads, etc., We will use a ads, our Reddit ads, etc., We will use a rewardful link so that we can track rewardful link so that we can track rewardful link so that we can track conversions and and things like that.

conversions and and things like that. conversions and and things like that. >> Your own product to do attribution for >> Your own product to do attribution for >> Your own product to do attribution for you. you. you. >> Yeah. And we have a lot of customers who >> Yeah. And we have a lot of customers who >> Yeah. And we have a lot of customers who use us for that for that purpose as use us for that for that purpose as use us for that for that purpose as well. well. well. >> Cool. Um so Rewardful >> Cool. Um so Rewardful >> Cool. Um so Rewardful >> obviously we have we have HubSpot for >> obviously we have we have HubSpot for >> obviously we have we have HubSpot for our CRM which we're we're in this limbo our CRM which we're we're in this limbo our CRM which we're we're in this limbo phase of trying to figure out like phase of trying to figure out like phase of trying to figure out like sales. So whether that stays as part of sales. So whether that stays as part of sales. So whether that stays as part of our our stack where that fits, it's it's our our stack where that fits, it's it's our our stack where that fits, it's it's still up sort of for consideration as a still up sort of for consideration as a still up sort of for consideration as a product. It's it's a pretty good product product. It's it's a pretty good product product. It's it's a pretty good product and you know lots of integrations and and you know lots of integrations and and you know lots of integrations and things like that. We're changing the things like that. We're changing the things like that. We're changing the tool we're using for um content posting. tool we're using for um content posting. tool we're using for um content posting. We were using aware I think it was We were using aware I think it was We were using aware I think it was called but now I think we're switching called but now I think we're switching called but now I think we're switching to Taplio intercom obviously for for to Taplio intercom obviously for for to Taplio intercom obviously for for customer support. We've got two channels customer support. We've got two channels customer support. We've got two channels of customer support. We use intercom for of customer support. We use intercom for of customer support. We use intercom for our chat support um because it it's you our chat support um because it it's you our chat support um because it it's you know it's great it's a great product but know it's great it's a great product but know it's great it's a great product but it does get expensive as you add it does get expensive as you add it does get expensive as you add contacts. So for affiliate support we contacts. So for affiliate support we contacts. So for affiliate support we use front because it's per seat as use front because it's per seat as use front because it's per seat as opposed to per contact and affiliates opposed to per contact and affiliates opposed to per contact and affiliates like the we're rolling out our managed like the we're rolling out our managed like the we're rolling out our managed payout service in our marketplace and so payout service in our marketplace and so payout service in our marketplace and so the volume of affiliate contacts is the volume of affiliate contacts is the volume of affiliate contacts is going to go up significantly and that going to go up significantly and that going to go up significantly and that would get very expensive if we were would get very expensive if we were would get very expensive if we were priced on a per contact. So we use front priced on a per contact. So we use front priced on a per contact. So we use front for for that. That's email support. We for for that. That's email support. We for for that. That's email support. We use intercom for use intercom for use intercom for uh chat support. Uh calendarly for uh chat support. Uh calendarly for uh chat support. Uh calendarly for scheduling calls with customers. Gmail scheduling calls with customers. Gmail scheduling calls with customers. Gmail for for email. We have been for for email. We have been for for email. We have been experimenting with cold email. We've

experimenting with cold email. We've experimenting with cold email. We've been using instantly for for that. Slack been using instantly for for that. Slack been using instantly for for that. Slack not just for internal kind of team not just for internal kind of team not just for internal kind of team conversations, but we've got conversations, but we've got conversations, but we've got integrations with different products integrations with different products integrations with different products that are putting things like in there. that are putting things like in there. that are putting things like in there. So like instantly we'll we'll you know So like instantly we'll we'll you know So like instantly we'll we'll you know send uh some information into into there send uh some information into into there send uh some information into into there and different products. Um we're using a and different products. Um we're using a and different products. Um we're using a product called siftin for social product called siftin for social product called siftin for social listing. listing. listing. Um so you can put like different Um so you can put like different Um so you can put like different keywords and different things you want keywords and different things you want keywords and different things you want to monitor. We want to monitor Twitter. to monitor. We want to monitor Twitter. to monitor. We want to monitor Twitter. We want to monitor Reddit. We want etc. We want to monitor Reddit. We want etc. We want to monitor Reddit. We want etc. And that feeds again that feeds into And that feeds again that feeds into And that feeds again that feeds into Slack. So we'll get notifications when Slack. So we'll get notifications when Slack. So we'll get notifications when there's a social mention about us. We there's a social mention about us. We there's a social mention about us. We kind of go in and engage with customers. kind of go in and engage with customers. kind of go in and engage with customers. Jiminy is our call tracker, but I think Jiminy is our call tracker, but I think Jiminy is our call tracker, but I think we're probably um gonna switch to we're probably um gonna switch to we're probably um gonna switch to something else. No, nothing against something else. No, nothing against something else. No, nothing against them. Just for our needs, it's uh them. Just for our needs, it's uh them. Just for our needs, it's uh probably overkill. Trying to think here probably overkill. Trying to think here probably overkill. Trying to think here is any other I love hearing you go is any other I love hearing you go is any other I love hearing you go through it though because like this is through it though because like this is through it though because like this is one of the things that if you one of the things that if you one of the things that if you can tune out some of the noise on can tune out some of the noise on can tune out some of the noise on LinkedIn for a minute, what you'd find LinkedIn for a minute, what you'd find LinkedIn for a minute, what you'd find is that most people's, you know, quote is that most people's, you know, quote is that most people's, you know, quote unquote tech stack is generally very unquote tech stack is generally very unquote tech stack is generally very lightweight. It's a couple of tools.

lightweight. It's a couple of tools. lightweight. It's a couple of tools. It's, you know, something for email It's, you know, something for email It's, you know, something for email sending, maybe something for list sending, maybe something for list sending, maybe something for list building, building, building, >> and it's not the key thing that's >> and it's not the key thing that's >> and it's not the key thing that's holding you back. holding you back. holding you back. >> And I think that's like the tone that >> And I think that's like the tone that >> And I think that's like the tone that gets sometimes set that it that's the gets sometimes set that it that's the gets sometimes set that it that's the secret sauce. And I just am constantly secret sauce. And I just am constantly secret sauce. And I just am constantly pointing out it's really not. Actually, pointing out it's really not. Actually, pointing out it's really not. Actually, it's like like a tennis player who's it's like like a tennis player who's it's like like a tennis player who's like, I they always get like the new like, I they always get like the new like, I they always get like the new $300 racket or something like that. And $300 racket or something like that. And $300 racket or something like that. And it's like, I don't think your racket is it's like, I don't think your racket is it's like, I don't think your racket is the problem. I think it's you need to the problem. I think it's you need to the problem. I think it's you need to work on your serve or whatever the case work on your serve or whatever the case work on your serve or whatever the case might be. might be. might be. >> I I've used a Wilson racket. I am not >> I I've used a Wilson racket. I am not >> I I've used a Wilson racket. I am not Roger Federer and I'm pretty confident Roger Federer and I'm pretty confident Roger Federer and I'm pretty confident he would beat me no matter what racket he would beat me no matter what racket he would beat me no matter what racket he was using, including a bad one. So, he was using, including a bad one. So, he was using, including a bad one. So, yeah, your metaphor, I totally agree. yeah, your metaphor, I totally agree. yeah, your metaphor, I totally agree. any um parting words of wisdom, things any um parting words of wisdom, things any um parting words of wisdom, things that uh you feel like you want to make that uh you feel like you want to make that uh you feel like you want to make sure our audience takes away from from sure our audience takes away from from sure our audience takes away from from your experience or from something about your experience or from something about your experience or from something about Rewardful that you want to that you want Rewardful that you want to that you want Rewardful that you want to that you want to mention as we close it out? to mention as we close it out? to mention as we close it out? >> Um well, I think in terms of the timing, >> Um well, I think in terms of the timing, >> Um well, I think in terms of the timing, my understanding of when when this will my understanding of when when this will my understanding of when when this will actually go live, um maybe just a plug actually go live, um maybe just a plug actually go live, um maybe just a plug for uh for Rewardful obviously. Um, and for uh for Rewardful obviously. Um, and for uh for Rewardful obviously. Um, and we're in the process right now as we're we're in the process right now as we're we're in the process right now as we're recording this of rolling out our recording this of rolling out our recording this of rolling out our managed payouts service.

managed payouts service. managed payouts service. >> Okay. >> Okay. >> Okay. >> Um, and then shortly after this, we'll >> Um, and then shortly after this, we'll >> Um, and then shortly after this, we'll be rolling out the rewardful be rolling out the rewardful be rolling out the rewardful marketplace. So, basically, if you've marketplace. So, basically, if you've marketplace. So, basically, if you've got an affiliate program and you want to got an affiliate program and you want to got an affiliate program and you want to uh expose it to a larger audience of uh expose it to a larger audience of uh expose it to a larger audience of affiliates, you could advertise it on affiliates, you could advertise it on affiliates, you could advertise it on the rewardful marketplace. Um, and then the rewardful marketplace. Um, and then the rewardful marketplace. Um, and then the managed payout service just is going the managed payout service just is going the managed payout service just is going to make it a lot easier for people to to make it a lot easier for people to to make it a lot easier for people to pay their affiliates. So instead of pay their affiliates. So instead of pay their affiliates. So instead of having to figure out PayPal or Wise or having to figure out PayPal or Wise or having to figure out PayPal or Wise or whatever sort of methods to pay people whatever sort of methods to pay people whatever sort of methods to pay people out yourself, you'll just pay Rewardful out yourself, you'll just pay Rewardful out yourself, you'll just pay Rewardful at whenever you want to pay your at whenever you want to pay your at whenever you want to pay your affiliates, you just pay Rewardful one affiliates, you just pay Rewardful one affiliates, you just pay Rewardful one invoice and then we handle the payment invoice and then we handle the payment invoice and then we handle the payment to your affiliates for you. You get one to your affiliates for you. You get one to your affiliates for you. You get one invoice from Rewardful and then we invoice from Rewardful and then we invoice from Rewardful and then we handle the invoicing relationship with handle the invoicing relationship with handle the invoicing relationship with the affiliates. So from sort of tax the affiliates. So from sort of tax the affiliates. So from sort of tax compliance and bookkeeping, it's just a compliance and bookkeeping, it's just a compliance and bookkeeping, it's just a much more simplified uh approach. So much more simplified uh approach. So much more simplified uh approach. So >> that's a good feature. >> that's a good feature. >> that's a good feature. >> Yeah. Yeah, exactly. So, >> Yeah. Yeah, exactly. So, >> Yeah. Yeah, exactly. So, >> reduce the number of emails I see, which >> reduce the number of emails I see, which >> reduce the number of emails I see, which is always that's kind of become my new is always that's kind of become my new is always that's kind of become my new mission is how do I help reduce the mission is how do I help reduce the mission is how do I help reduce the number, which seems a little bit uh odd number, which seems a little bit uh odd number, which seems a little bit uh odd given our given our given our >> Yeah. But I think um quality over >> Yeah. But I think um quality over >> Yeah. But I think um quality over quantity is always the right way to go quantity is always the right way to go quantity is always the right way to go in uh in everything. So, it definitely in uh in everything. So, it definitely in uh in everything. So, it definitely it is logically consistent if you look it is logically consistent if you look it is logically consistent if you look past the obvious stuff. It past the obvious stuff. It past the obvious stuff. It >> was great to talk with you, EMTT. I'm >> was great to talk with you, EMTT. I'm >> was great to talk with you, EMTT. I'm glad we finally got a chance to connect.

glad we finally got a chance to connect. glad we finally got a chance to connect. Once again, thank you to Emmett for Once again, thank you to Emmett for Once again, thank you to Emmett for joining today's episode of Outfox. If joining today's episode of Outfox. If joining today's episode of Outfox. If you like what you heard, please like, you like what you heard, please like, you like what you heard, please like, subscribe, and explore even more of the subscribe, and explore even more of the subscribe, and explore even more of the Outbox archive by visiting Outbox archive by visiting Outbox archive by visiting www.outfox.hunter.io. Here is Emma Gibney. That was Matt Here is Emma Gibney. That was Matt Tharp. And we're out of time.