Outfoxed podcast by Hunter.io | Ep 14 Matt Lauro "Double down on the customers you value"

This is Outfox, the podcast brought to This is Outfox, the podcast brought to you by hunter.io, you by hunter.io, you by hunter.io, the trusted B2B lead generation platform the trusted B2B lead generation platform the trusted B2B lead generation platform built for every professional. built for every professional. built for every professional. No ready-to-know playbooks, no No ready-to-know playbooks, no No ready-to-know playbooks, no posturing, and no egos. This is the show posturing, and no egos. This is the show posturing, and no egos. This is the show for the builders and not the theorists. for the builders and not the theorists. for the builders and not the theorists. Let's get into it. All right, today I'm Let's get into it. All right, today I'm Let's get into it. All right, today I'm joined by Matt Lauer, the founder of joined by Matt Lauer, the founder of joined by Matt Lauer, the founder of Fractional CRO. Matt, great to have you Fractional CRO. Matt, great to have you Fractional CRO. Matt, great to have you today. today. today. >> Yeah, great to be here, James. Thanks >> Yeah, great to be here, James. Thanks >> Yeah, great to be here, James. Thanks for having me. for having me. for having me. >> We have been talking >> We have been talking >> We have been talking on and off, I think, for two or three on and off, I think, for two or three on and off, I think, for two or three months, and I won't I won't bore our months, and I won't I won't bore our months, and I won't I won't bore our listeners with the reason why we were listeners with the reason why we were listeners with the reason why we were talking in the first place, but once we talking in the first place, but once we talking in the first place, but once we had started talking enough, I realized had started talking enough, I realized had started talking enough, I realized that you have like a really unique story that you have like a really unique story that you have like a really unique story to tell people about going from sort of to tell people about going from sort of to tell people about going from sort of a corporate role through to building a corporate role through to building a corporate role through to building your own thing in terms of fractional your own thing in terms of fractional your own thing in terms of fractional CRO services, and today I'm looking CRO services, and today I'm looking CRO services, and today I'm looking forward to diving into that. Um, but forward to diving into that. Um, but forward to diving into that. Um, but before we do get into that, I I love before we do get into that, I I love before we do get into that, I I love starting Outfoxed with a question that's starting Outfoxed with a question that's starting Outfoxed with a question that's um, a little selfish. It's top of my um, a little selfish. It's top of my um, a little selfish. It's top of my mind. So, we have recently done a survey mind. So, we have recently done a survey mind. So, we have recently done a survey that has looked into the uh the use of that has looked into the uh the use of that has looked into the uh the use of multiple channels for outreach.

multiple channels for outreach. multiple channels for outreach. >> Yep. >> Yep. >> Yep. >> And Matt, I know that you have plenty of >> And Matt, I know that you have plenty of >> And Matt, I know that you have plenty of experience in this. Um, something that experience in this. Um, something that experience in this. Um, something that stood out is that when founders go stood out is that when founders go stood out is that when founders go beyond the one to two channels they beyond the one to two channels they beyond the one to two channels they typically use, they they can almost typically use, they they can almost typically use, they they can almost double their reply rates to to lead double their reply rates to to lead double their reply rates to to lead generation uh activities. In your generation uh activities. In your generation uh activities. In your experience, how many channels do you experience, how many channels do you experience, how many channels do you typically look to leverage um when typically look to leverage um when typically look to leverage um when you're when you're running outreach, and you're when you're running outreach, and you're when you're running outreach, and how does that, you know, how does that how does that, you know, how does that how does that, you know, how does that affected your ability to be successful affected your ability to be successful affected your ability to be successful when helping uh clients in the when helping uh clients in the when helping uh clients in the businesses that you've worked for? businesses that you've worked for? businesses that you've worked for? >> Yeah, I think uh channel strategy is >> Yeah, I think uh channel strategy is >> Yeah, I think uh channel strategy is always something that's kind of top of always something that's kind of top of always something that's kind of top of mind with the founders that I work with. mind with the founders that I work with. mind with the founders that I work with. A lot of the founders that I talk to, A lot of the founders that I talk to, A lot of the founders that I talk to, they're at different stages, right? So, they're at different stages, right? So, they're at different stages, right? So, the the big thing is that is the the big thing is that is the the big thing is that is understanding where where they're coming understanding where where they're coming understanding where where they're coming from. A lot of the founders that I've from. A lot of the founders that I've from. A lot of the founders that I've worked with kind of tend to fall in the worked with kind of tend to fall in the worked with kind of tend to fall in the bucket of we have all these channels, bucket of we have all these channels, bucket of we have all these channels, and we don't really know where the ROI and we don't really know where the ROI and we don't really know where the ROI is coming from. So, they, you know, have is coming from. So, they, you know, have is coming from. So, they, you know, have listened or seen on Google or an ad's listened or seen on Google or an ad's listened or seen on Google or an ad's popped up or somebody's reached out to popped up or somebody's reached out to popped up or somebody's reached out to them that they need to do them that they need to do them that they need to do paid ads or they need to do ads on paid ads or they need to do ads on paid ads or they need to do ads on social or they need to do more events or social or they need to do more events or social or they need to do more events or they need to do more digital and and they need to do more digital and and they need to do more digital and and they kind of have this like hodgepodge they kind of have this like hodgepodge they kind of have this like hodgepodge of channels of channels of channels and no real understanding of like how and no real understanding of like how and no real understanding of like how they're getting their leads ultimately.

they're getting their leads ultimately. they're getting their leads ultimately. Um or they have a lot of channels that Um or they have a lot of channels that Um or they have a lot of channels that are driving really good brand awareness, are driving really good brand awareness, are driving really good brand awareness, but then they don't know how to convert but then they don't know how to convert but then they don't know how to convert that brand awareness top of funnel to that brand awareness top of funnel to that brand awareness top of funnel to more mid funnel and qualified more mid funnel and qualified more mid funnel and qualified conversations. So, conversations. So, conversations. So, that's typically where I I step in. I that's typically where I I step in. I that's typically where I I step in. I tend to take like the simple approach. tend to take like the simple approach. tend to take like the simple approach. Kind of almost peel back and really Kind of almost peel back and really Kind of almost peel back and really truly understand truly understand truly understand the customer at the end of the day the customer at the end of the day the customer at the end of the day because we know, um you know, from because we know, um you know, from because we know, um you know, from attribution models and stuff like that, attribution models and stuff like that, attribution models and stuff like that, it's it's it's it's not as clear-cut as everybody would it's not as clear-cut as everybody would it's not as clear-cut as everybody would like it to be. Like it's not, oh, I saw like it to be. Like it's not, oh, I saw like it to be. Like it's not, oh, I saw your ad online and now I've your ad online and now I've your ad online and now I've checked out your website and now I've checked out your website and now I've checked out your website and now I've booked a meeting and now I'm a customer. booked a meeting and now I'm a customer. booked a meeting and now I'm a customer. Like sometimes it goes that clearly, but Like sometimes it goes that clearly, but Like sometimes it goes that clearly, but typically it's typically it's typically it's hey, I saw your email 2 months ago. I hey, I saw your email 2 months ago. I hey, I saw your email 2 months ago. I saw you at an event. Oh, you're a saw you at an event. Oh, you're a saw you at an event. Oh, you're a sponsor here. Oh, I saw an ad pop up on sponsor here. Oh, I saw an ad pop up on sponsor here. Oh, I saw an ad pop up on LinkedIn. Oh, I saw a post from you. So, LinkedIn. Oh, I saw a post from you. So, LinkedIn. Oh, I saw a post from you. So, it's a multi multi-touch attribution. it's a multi multi-touch attribution. it's a multi multi-touch attribution. And that then makes it very hard, you And that then makes it very hard, you And that then makes it very hard, you know, from a channel strategy to figure know, from a channel strategy to figure know, from a channel strategy to figure out what channels are actually truly out what channels are actually truly out what channels are actually truly converting those leads and those converting those leads and those converting those leads and those qualified conversations. So, what I qualified conversations. So, what I qualified conversations. So, what I typically do is I typically do is I typically do is I I strip back and I look, what are the I strip back and I look, what are the I strip back and I look, what are the kind of your foundational kind of your foundational kind of your foundational channels that you're focusing on? Which channels that you're focusing on? Which channels that you're focusing on? Which are the ones that you feel comfortable are the ones that you feel comfortable are the ones that you feel comfortable on? Which Which are the ones that you're on? Which Which are the ones that you're on? Which Which are the ones that you're not just starting off and like putting not just starting off and like putting not just starting off and like putting pennies, you know, where you should be pennies, you know, where you should be pennies, you know, where you should be putting hundreds of dollars towards?

putting hundreds of dollars towards? putting hundreds of dollars towards? Um but what are the ones that you have a Um but what are the ones that you have a Um but what are the ones that you have a really strong foundation? And then build really strong foundation? And then build really strong foundation? And then build from there, test that out, maybe do some from there, test that out, maybe do some from there, test that out, maybe do some different kind of touch points along different kind of touch points along different kind of touch points along that channel itself. that channel itself. that channel itself. And then and then build from there, And then and then build from there, And then and then build from there, right? So, kind of strip it back um right? So, kind of strip it back um right? So, kind of strip it back um because a lot are you know, lots of because a lot are you know, lots of because a lot are you know, lots of channels, strip it back to one or two channels, strip it back to one or two channels, strip it back to one or two kind of core channels, understand if kind of core channels, understand if kind of core channels, understand if that's converting at the level we want, that's converting at the level we want, that's converting at the level we want, and then start adding on from there. and then start adding on from there. and then start adding on from there. Um, I think the other really Um, I think the other really Um, I think the other really kind of interesting dynamic that we have kind of interesting dynamic that we have kind of interesting dynamic that we have when we talk about channels that a lot when we talk about channels that a lot when we talk about channels that a lot of channels that we've looked at as a as of channels that we've looked at as a as of channels that we've looked at as a as a marketing or sales leader in the past a marketing or sales leader in the past a marketing or sales leader in the past have been digital, right? And I think have been digital, right? And I think have been digital, right? And I think there's this big there's this big there's this big transformation I've seen where transformation I've seen where transformation I've seen where uh, what was probably 10, 15 years ago uh, what was probably 10, 15 years ago uh, what was probably 10, 15 years ago everybody is like, you need to be everybody is like, you need to be everybody is like, you need to be online, you need to be digital, online, you need to be digital, online, you need to be digital, everything needs to be online, people everything needs to be online, people everything needs to be online, people are looking online to make B2B business are looking online to make B2B business are looking online to make B2B business decisions. decisions. decisions. To now To now To now everything's digital and everything's digital and everything's digital and open rates, click-through rates, open rates, click-through rates, open rates, click-through rates, engagement rates are all tanking to a engagement rates are all tanking to a engagement rates are all tanking to a degree.

degree. degree. I think people are now looking more I think people are now looking more I think people are now looking more towards that towards that towards that personal, face-to-face interaction, personal, face-to-face interaction, personal, face-to-face interaction, right? You see increases in events and right? You see increases in events and right? You see increases in events and in-person events and stuff like that in-person events and stuff like that in-person events and stuff like that where there was a period, obviously, where there was a period, obviously, where there was a period, obviously, with pandemic, with kind of the with pandemic, with kind of the with pandemic, with kind of the digital-first approach, that we weren't digital-first approach, that we weren't digital-first approach, that we weren't having this like personal outreach. And having this like personal outreach. And having this like personal outreach. And I think now more than ever, especially I think now more than ever, especially I think now more than ever, especially when you have entrants like the AIs of when you have entrants like the AIs of when you have entrants like the AIs of the world blasting out marketing the world blasting out marketing the world blasting out marketing messages constantly, that personal, messages constantly, that personal, messages constantly, that personal, authentic, face-to-face interaction is authentic, face-to-face interaction is authentic, face-to-face interaction is really key. So, really key. So, really key. So, a lot of the clients I'm working with a lot of the clients I'm working with a lot of the clients I'm working with now, that's kind of a step, right? Is now, that's kind of a step, right? Is now, that's kind of a step, right? Is they've they've they've kind of understand to a degree the kind of understand to a degree the kind of understand to a degree the digital channels. digital channels. digital channels. And yeah, it's a lit- a little bit of, And yeah, it's a lit- a little bit of, And yeah, it's a lit- a little bit of, okay, maybe we put some money here in okay, maybe we put some money here in okay, maybe we put some money here in social, or we do Google paid ads, or we social, or we do Google paid ads, or we social, or we do Google paid ads, or we do SEO, or whatever those channels are. do SEO, or whatever those channels are. do SEO, or whatever those channels are. But now it's, how do we then But now it's, how do we then But now it's, how do we then add on the offline channels? And I think add on the offline channels? And I think add on the offline channels? And I think that's really key because that's where that's really key because that's where that's really key because that's where I'm seeing really, really strong I'm seeing really, really strong I'm seeing really, really strong engagement. Yes, it sometimes takes more engagement. Yes, it sometimes takes more engagement. Yes, it sometimes takes more you know, more time, more effort, more you know, more time, more effort, more you know, more time, more effort, more money in some cases, but sometimes you money in some cases, but sometimes you money in some cases, but sometimes you can do face-to-face and those kind of can do face-to-face and those kind of can do face-to-face and those kind of in-person events or channels, in-person events or channels, in-person events or channels, um, um, um, you know, you know, you know, really, really cost-effective and really, really cost-effective and really, really cost-effective and really, um, get them up and running really, um, get them up and running really, um, get them up and running pretty quickly. So, that I think is is pretty quickly. So, that I think is is pretty quickly. So, that I think is is the next phase that I'm starting to see, the next phase that I'm starting to see, the next phase that I'm starting to see, um not only in my own business, but the um not only in my own business, but the um not only in my own business, but the business that I I work the clients I business that I I work the clients I business that I I work the clients I work with. Um and that to me is super work with. Um and that to me is super work with. Um and that to me is super exciting, right? Because then you start exciting, right? Because then you start exciting, right? Because then you start to stand out and you start to to stand out and you start to to stand out and you start to differentiate yourself in just the differentiate yourself in just the differentiate yourself in just the channel strategy itself versus what channel strategy itself versus what channel strategy itself versus what everybody else in your market's doing.

everybody else in your market's doing. everybody else in your market's doing. >> Right, yeah. And and >> Right, yeah. And and >> Right, yeah. And and I love what you said there about about I love what you said there about about I love what you said there about about kind of standing out. I've always said kind of standing out. I've always said kind of standing out. I've always said that um in times of like hyper that um in times of like hyper that um in times of like hyper competitive um competitive um competitive um you know, cycles that I think a lot of you know, cycles that I think a lot of you know, cycles that I think a lot of us are especially right now when it us are especially right now when it us are especially right now when it comes to sales and marketing, whether comes to sales and marketing, whether comes to sales and marketing, whether it's software or services, it's software or services, it's software or services, the best way to stand out is is good the best way to stand out is is good the best way to stand out is is good positioning and therefore good positioning and therefore good positioning and therefore good messaging. But what you're saying there messaging. But what you're saying there messaging. But what you're saying there is is kind of like the the layer down is is kind of like the the layer down is is kind of like the the layer down from that, which is like once you from that, which is like once you from that, which is like once you understand who, you know, who you're understand who, you know, who you're understand who, you know, who you're trying to sell to, how you want to speak trying to sell to, how you want to speak trying to sell to, how you want to speak to them, it's then where do you speak to to them, it's then where do you speak to to them, it's then where do you speak to them? Founders don't adopt multi-channel them? Founders don't adopt multi-channel them? Founders don't adopt multi-channel because it's too complex. because it's too complex. because it's too complex. And if they were to listen to what And if they were to listen to what And if they were to listen to what you're saying here, and I would agree, you're saying here, and I would agree, you're saying here, and I would agree, if you were to strip back to basics and if you were to strip back to basics and if you were to strip back to basics and think about where are you comfortable, think about where are you comfortable, think about where are you comfortable, where are your you know, where are your where are your you know, where are your where are your you know, where are your your buyers hanging out, and then how your buyers hanging out, and then how your buyers hanging out, and then how can you stand out? Do those three can you stand out? Do those three can you stand out? Do those three things, things, things, then yeah, you should be able to then yeah, you should be able to then yeah, you should be able to differentiate. And And to your point, differentiate. And And to your point, differentiate. And And to your point, you're clearly excited. You should be. you're clearly excited. You should be. you're clearly excited. You should be. Standing out actually isn't about Standing out actually isn't about Standing out actually isn't about putting more dollars into Google Ads. putting more dollars into Google Ads. putting more dollars into Google Ads. Google does not need more money, I can Google does not need more money, I can Google does not need more money, I can tell you that. Um and it's also it's tell you that. Um and it's also it's tell you that. Um and it's also it's it's doing something different. Like I I it's doing something different. Like I I it's doing something different. Like I I recently spoke to um CEO of a direct recently spoke to um CEO of a direct recently spoke to um CEO of a direct mail um SaaS platform, mail um SaaS platform, mail um SaaS platform, which may sound like a contradiction, which may sound like a contradiction, which may sound like a contradiction, but um he was saying the same thing as but um he was saying the same thing as but um he was saying the same thing as you, Matt, which is that people are you, Matt, which is that people are you, Matt, which is that people are discounting offline. And actually, discounting offline. And actually, discounting offline. And actually, because we're so online, to take things because we're so online, to take things because we're so online, to take things offline, to go to events, to send direct offline, to go to events, to send direct offline, to go to events, to send direct mails or or letters, whatever, mails or or letters, whatever, mails or or letters, whatever, that's that's that's it's almost like it's it's old, but it's it's almost like it's it's old, but it's it's almost like it's it's old, but it's new. And I And I I'm just I'm fascinated

new. And I And I I'm just I'm fascinated new. And I And I I'm just I'm fascinated to see how uh how how things are going to see how uh how how things are going to see how uh how how things are going to evolve at kind of like a at a to evolve at kind of like a at a to evolve at kind of like a at a professional level for us in terms of of professional level for us in terms of of professional level for us in terms of of being revenue facing people. I think being revenue facing people. I think being revenue facing people. I think it's it's really interesting. it's it's really interesting. it's it's really interesting. >> It's super. I mean, we're going back to >> It's super. I mean, we're going back to >> It's super. I mean, we're going back to the old way of it, right? Like putting the old way of it, right? Like putting the old way of it, right? Like putting putting ads in newspapers, local putting ads in newspapers, local putting ads in newspapers, local magazines, radio ads. Direct mail is is magazines, radio ads. Direct mail is is magazines, radio ads. Direct mail is is something I've talked to several of my something I've talked to several of my something I've talked to several of my clients about, right? Because I think clients about, right? Because I think clients about, right? Because I think you think about the only time you get you think about the only time you get you think about the only time you get mail that you actually enjoy is around mail that you actually enjoy is around mail that you actually enjoy is around the holidays, right? You get Christmas the holidays, right? You get Christmas the holidays, right? You get Christmas cards and personal or maybe pictures cards and personal or maybe pictures cards and personal or maybe pictures from family and friends. That's the only from family and friends. That's the only from family and friends. That's the only time I actually care about the mail and time I actually care about the mail and time I actually care about the mail and my family cares about the mail. my family cares about the mail. my family cares about the mail. But if you've ever received something But if you've ever received something But if you've ever received something from like maybe you sign up for a new from like maybe you sign up for a new from like maybe you sign up for a new service or you bought a new house and service or you bought a new house and service or you bought a new house and the realtor sent you something. Like the realtor sent you something. Like the realtor sent you something. Like those are really cool moments to get those are really cool moments to get those are really cool moments to get something that's personal, that means something that's personal, that means something that's personal, that means something something something um in the mail, right? It it's this um in the mail, right? It it's this um in the mail, right? It it's this whole idea I I call it, you know, and a whole idea I I call it, you know, and a whole idea I I call it, you know, and a lot of marketers do like the sea of lot of marketers do like the sea of lot of marketers do like the sea of sameness, right? There's a lot of noise sameness, right? There's a lot of noise sameness, right? There's a lot of noise and a lot of the noise right now is on and a lot of the noise right now is on and a lot of the noise right now is on digital and messaging and all of that.

digital and messaging and all of that. digital and messaging and all of that. And how do you continue kind of that And how do you continue kind of that And how do you continue kind of that messaging what your customers actually messaging what your customers actually messaging what your customers actually care about, but look at other channels care about, but look at other channels care about, but look at other channels where you can really stand out, right? where you can really stand out, right? where you can really stand out, right? Because if you think of a direct mail, Because if you think of a direct mail, Because if you think of a direct mail, you're not competing with all the other you're not competing with all the other you're not competing with all the other digital messages that your the person is digital messages that your the person is digital messages that your the person is seeing, right? They're collecting their seeing, right? They're collecting their seeing, right? They're collecting their mail and they're seeing your message mail and they're seeing your message mail and they're seeing your message front and center next to a bunch of junk front and center next to a bunch of junk front and center next to a bunch of junk mail typically, right? So you have a mail typically, right? So you have a mail typically, right? So you have a real opportunity in those offline real opportunity in those offline real opportunity in those offline channels to truly stand out because not channels to truly stand out because not channels to truly stand out because not everybody's doing that yet. Um so I everybody's doing that yet. Um so I everybody's doing that yet. Um so I think there's a ton of upside in that think there's a ton of upside in that think there's a ton of upside in that yes, there's a little bit more planning, yes, there's a little bit more planning, yes, there's a little bit more planning, a little bit more cost in some of that, a little bit more cost in some of that, a little bit more cost in some of that, but honestly to your point, but honestly to your point, but honestly to your point, I'd rather spend less money with Google I'd rather spend less money with Google I'd rather spend less money with Google and be in that kind of sea of sameness and be in that kind of sea of sameness and be in that kind of sea of sameness of all my competitors and and reallocate of all my competitors and and reallocate of all my competitors and and reallocate that money towards something that's that money towards something that's that money towards something that's really going to really going to really going to turn more conversions and conversations turn more conversions and conversations turn more conversions and conversations um out of the marketing, right? So um out of the marketing, right? So um out of the marketing, right? So >> Right. Yeah, and you know, it it's said >> Right. Yeah, and you know, it it's said >> Right. Yeah, and you know, it it's said that when you are personal, uh relevant, that when you are personal, uh relevant, that when you are personal, uh relevant, and trustworthy, you are more successful and trustworthy, you are more successful and trustworthy, you are more successful you'll with your cons. But that just you'll with your cons. But that just you'll with your cons. But that just applies across the board. But the thing applies across the board. But the thing applies across the board. But the thing that was really interesting to me is that was really interesting to me is that was really interesting to me is that with cold email, and I think this that with cold email, and I think this that with cold email, and I think this applies to to what we're saying here applies to to what we're saying here applies to to what we're saying here because there are smaller groups of because there are smaller groups of because there are smaller groups of people, with cold email, people, with cold email, people, with cold email, if you send a campaign to less than 50 if you send a campaign to less than 50 if you send a campaign to less than 50 people, your reply rates go from 2% to people, your reply rates go from 2% to people, your reply rates go from 2% to 6%. That is indicative of the the the 6%. That is indicative of the the the 6%. That is indicative of the the the importance of knowing who you're trying importance of knowing who you're trying importance of knowing who you're trying to talk to and spending more time to to talk to and spending more time to to talk to and spending more time to understand who they are and then understand who they are and then understand who they are and then providing value for them. And that's the providing value for them. And that's the providing value for them. And that's the same thing as as sending direct mail or

same thing as as sending direct mail or same thing as as sending direct mail or going to events. There's a There's a going to events. There's a There's a going to events. There's a There's a There's something there that it's it's There's something there that it's it's There's something there that it's it's all about building trust. It's about all about building trust. It's about all about building trust. It's about having that one-to-one relationship having that one-to-one relationship having that one-to-one relationship where you say something that gets the where you say something that gets the where you say something that gets the interest of of the recipient or the interest of of the recipient or the interest of of the recipient or the person you're talking to and they buy person you're talking to and they buy person you're talking to and they buy into what Matt is saying or what James into what Matt is saying or what James into what Matt is saying or what James is saying. I think that is I like that is saying. I think that is I like that is saying. I think that is I like that you you're taking a different approach you you're taking a different approach you you're taking a different approach to to kind of how you're advising your to to kind of how you're advising your to to kind of how you're advising your clients. Um clients. Um clients. Um And and you know, natural segue here, And and you know, natural segue here, And and you know, natural segue here, right? So, fractional CRO, um your your right? So, fractional CRO, um your your right? So, fractional CRO, um your your company. Tell us about that company. company. Tell us about that company. company. Tell us about that company. Tell us about how you went from sort of Tell us about how you went from sort of Tell us about how you went from sort of your your 9:00 to 5:00 to then your your 9:00 to 5:00 to then your your 9:00 to 5:00 to then transition into this and sort of What transition into this and sort of What transition into this and sort of What are you What are you trying to achieve? are you What are you trying to achieve? are you What are you trying to achieve? What are you trying to help people do What are you trying to help people do What are you trying to help people do with with offering um these services? with with offering um these services? with with offering um these services? >> For sure. So, I you know, I have been in >> For sure. So, I you know, I have been in >> For sure. So, I you know, I have been in the professional services staffing the professional services staffing the professional services staffing workforce solutions space for 20-plus workforce solutions space for 20-plus workforce solutions space for 20-plus years. I kind of grew up in it, I say. years. I kind of grew up in it, I say. years. I kind of grew up in it, I say. Um Um Um So, I've I've done everything from I've So, I've I've done everything from I've So, I've I've done everything from I've actually temped and actually temped and actually temped and answered phones out at the bank. They answered phones out at the bank. They answered phones out at the bank. They would call me same day and be like, "Hey would call me same day and be like, "Hey would call me same day and be like, "Hey Matt, how fast can you get out here and Matt, how fast can you get out here and Matt, how fast can you get out here and answer phones on the trading floor of answer phones on the trading floor of answer phones on the trading floor of Bank of America?" Um to running global Bank of America?" Um to running global Bank of America?" Um to running global global teams and actually spending some global teams and actually spending some global teams and actually spending some time overseas at at a corporate time overseas at at a corporate time overseas at at a corporate headquarter of one of the one of the headquarter of one of the one of the headquarter of one of the one of the companies I worked with. So, I've kind companies I worked with. So, I've kind companies I worked with. So, I've kind of seen it all from like bottom to top of seen it all from like bottom to top of seen it all from like bottom to top um in that space um in that space um in that space and I learned a lot throughout that. And and I learned a lot throughout that. And and I learned a lot throughout that. And yes, I would not change anything from yes, I would not change anything from yes, I would not change anything from the journey perspective of the the journey perspective of the the journey perspective of the experiences that I had and the knowledge experiences that I had and the knowledge experiences that I had and the knowledge that I gained, but I always had this that I gained, but I always had this that I gained, but I always had this kind of itch of like kind of itch of like kind of itch of like I think I I can be my own boss. I think

I think I I can be my own boss. I think I think I I can be my own boss. I think I can do something on my own. And it was I can do something on my own. And it was I can do something on my own. And it was a couple of my mentors, you know, said, a couple of my mentors, you know, said, a couple of my mentors, you know, said, "Don't do too early. Really gain the "Don't do too early. Really gain the "Don't do too early. Really gain the experience that you you will gain as you experience that you you will gain as you experience that you you will gain as you enter enter enter I'll give my age away into your 40s, I'll give my age away into your 40s, I'll give my age away into your 40s, right? And have 20 years of experience right? And have 20 years of experience right? And have 20 years of experience and network and stuff like that. Then and network and stuff like that. Then and network and stuff like that. Then then see if you can start to kind of then see if you can start to kind of then see if you can start to kind of test the water. And to be quite honest, test the water. And to be quite honest, test the water. And to be quite honest, James, I was James, I was James, I was I was uncertain. I I thought I kind of I was uncertain. I I thought I kind of I was uncertain. I I thought I kind of knew what I was talking about and I knew what I was talking about and I knew what I was talking about and I thought I had a lot of thought I had a lot of thought I had a lot of uh good ideas and answers and stuff, but uh good ideas and answers and stuff, but uh good ideas and answers and stuff, but I didn't really know if people would I didn't really know if people would I didn't really know if people would actually actually actually want those services, right? Or need them want those services, right? Or need them want those services, right? Or need them or or ask for them. Um until I started, or or ask for them. Um until I started, or or ask for them. Um until I started, you know, tapping into some local you know, tapping into some local you know, tapping into some local friends, entrepreneurial groups, and friends, entrepreneurial groups, and friends, entrepreneurial groups, and just saying, "Hey, just saying, "Hey, just saying, "Hey, you know, is this something that'd be you know, is this something that'd be you know, is this something that'd be interesting?" Drew up kind of a business interesting?" Drew up kind of a business interesting?" Drew up kind of a business business case. Um business case. Um business case. Um you know, talked to a couple founders you know, talked to a couple founders you know, talked to a couple founders locally. I'm I'm based in Charlotte. So, locally. I'm I'm based in Charlotte. So, locally. I'm I'm based in Charlotte. So, a couple founders in Charlotte. And they a couple founders in Charlotte. And they a couple founders in Charlotte. And they were like, "Yeah, this is exactly what were like, "Yeah, this is exactly what were like, "Yeah, this is exactly what we're looking for. We'd love for you to we're looking for. We'd love for you to we're looking for. We'd love for you to come and talk to to me and the come and talk to to me and the come and talk to to me and the leadership team and and start to do some leadership team and and start to do some leadership team and and start to do some kind of retainer work." So, I did that kind of retainer work." So, I did that kind of retainer work." So, I did that kind of on the side just kind of as a kind of on the side just kind of as a kind of on the side just kind of as a side gig with side gig with side gig with um really different industries that I um really different industries that I um really different industries that I hadn't been tapped into before, but I hadn't been tapped into before, but I hadn't been tapped into before, but I what I quickly realized is that all of what I quickly realized is that all of what I quickly realized is that all of the knowledge and experience that I the knowledge and experience that I the knowledge and experience that I gained was super valuable to these gained was super valuable to these gained was super valuable to these medium-sized companies.

medium-sized companies. medium-sized companies. Um even if it wasn't the same industry Um even if it wasn't the same industry Um even if it wasn't the same industry that I grew up in. Um and then you know, that I grew up in. Um and then you know, that I grew up in. Um and then you know, after a while of doing that, I just after a while of doing that, I just after a while of doing that, I just thought thought thought maybe I should do this full-time. Yes, maybe I should do this full-time. Yes, maybe I should do this full-time. Yes, it's going to be a leap. It's going to it's going to be a leap. It's going to it's going to be a leap. It's going to be be be a little bit scary to make that to make a little bit scary to make that to make a little bit scary to make that to make that change. Um that change. Um that change. Um but but but you know, it it So, earlier this year I you know, it it So, earlier this year I you know, it it So, earlier this year I I made the leap and um I made the leap and um I made the leap and um kind of went all in on fractional CRO kind of went all in on fractional CRO kind of went all in on fractional CRO and uh the rest is history. I've I've and uh the rest is history. I've I've and uh the rest is history. I've I've really enjoyed it. It's allowed me to really enjoyed it. It's allowed me to really enjoyed it. It's allowed me to now that I've left the 9-to-5, I can now that I've left the 9-to-5, I can now that I've left the 9-to-5, I can really really really focus on what matters most, which which focus on what matters most, which which focus on what matters most, which which are the customers and the companies that are the customers and the companies that are the customers and the companies that I'm working with to try to grow and I'm working with to try to grow and I'm working with to try to grow and scale and and get to that next level. scale and and get to that next level. scale and and get to that next level. And that to me is the most rewarding And that to me is the most rewarding And that to me is the most rewarding piece is being able to work directly piece is being able to work directly piece is being able to work directly with these founders, presidents, CEOs, with these founders, presidents, CEOs, with these founders, presidents, CEOs, and being able to really help them and being able to really help them and being able to really help them figure out how do we navigate, to your figure out how do we navigate, to your figure out how do we navigate, to your point earlier, like point earlier, like point earlier, like our channel strategy, our overall our channel strategy, our overall our channel strategy, our overall market, our go-to-market, you know, all market, our go-to-market, you know, all market, our go-to-market, you know, all of these big questions that they have, of these big questions that they have, of these big questions that they have, while on the side they're having to run while on the side they're having to run while on the side they're having to run a business, right? And make sure that a business, right? And make sure that a business, right? And make sure that the business is is staying afloat. Um the business is is staying afloat. Um the business is is staying afloat. Um so, this is typically the sales and so, this is typically the sales and so, this is typically the sales and marketing piece is typically something marketing piece is typically something marketing piece is typically something that's in addition to their plate and that's in addition to their plate and that's in addition to their plate and kind of kind of kind of gets bogged down by some of the other gets bogged down by some of the other gets bogged down by some of the other priorities. So, being able to take that priorities. So, being able to take that priorities. So, being able to take that off their plate and really align uh off their plate and really align uh off their plate and really align uh with their business strategy and and with their business strategy and and with their business strategy and and drive for their strategy around drive for their strategy around drive for their strategy around marketing and sales and customer success marketing and sales and customer success marketing and sales and customer success um is really what Fractional CRO is all um is really what Fractional CRO is all um is really what Fractional CRO is all about. And I think one of the core kind about. And I think one of the core kind about. And I think one of the core kind of of of principles I've realized since I started

principles I've realized since I started principles I've realized since I started this and now now that I'm all all in this and now now that I'm all all in this and now now that I'm all all in full-time on it is really that full-time on it is really that full-time on it is really that collaboration collaboration collaboration and working directly with the customers and working directly with the customers and working directly with the customers is something I loved in the corporate is something I loved in the corporate is something I loved in the corporate world. I was navigating, you know, these world. I was navigating, you know, these world. I was navigating, you know, these global organizations. Now bringing that global organizations. Now bringing that global organizations. Now bringing that down into these more mid-size companies, down into these more mid-size companies, down into these more mid-size companies, you know, where anywhere from 10 to a you know, where anywhere from 10 to a you know, where anywhere from 10 to a couple hundred, couple thousand couple hundred, couple thousand couple hundred, couple thousand employees, navigating um the employees, navigating um the employees, navigating um the complexities of those organizations and complexities of those organizations and complexities of those organizations and really collaborating, thinking of hey, really collaborating, thinking of hey, really collaborating, thinking of hey, what do we need to do in order to grow what do we need to do in order to grow what do we need to do in order to grow this business um and be successful, but this business um and be successful, but this business um and be successful, but then also giving them the tools, then also giving them the tools, then also giving them the tools, processes, foundational pieces that then processes, foundational pieces that then processes, foundational pieces that then allow them to scale and grow past, you allow them to scale and grow past, you allow them to scale and grow past, you know, me being in the seat, you know, in know, me being in the seat, you know, in know, me being in the seat, you know, in a retainer basis with them. So, a retainer basis with them. So, a retainer basis with them. So, >> I have spoken to >> I have spoken to >> I have spoken to probably well over a hundred founders probably well over a hundred founders probably well over a hundred founders now in the last two or three years. And now in the last two or three years. And now in the last two or three years. And that's not my idea of fun, but it it's that's not my idea of fun, but it it's that's not my idea of fun, but it it's been very very very valuable to me. And been very very very valuable to me. And been very very very valuable to me. And um um um one of the things that that you really one of the things that that you really one of the things that that you really get a sense of like first of all to even get a sense of like first of all to even get a sense of like first of all to even get to even get these sort of people get to even get these sort of people get to even get these sort of people onto a call sometimes is quite onto a call sometimes is quite onto a call sometimes is quite challenging. And then secondly, you challenging. And then secondly, you challenging. And then secondly, you know, to be offering services to let's know, to be offering services to let's know, to be offering services to let's say probably the the smaller sized um, say probably the the smaller sized um, say probably the the smaller sized um, companies that you do serve.

companies that you do serve. companies that you do serve. There's a trust element here, isn't There's a trust element here, isn't There's a trust element here, isn't there? There's a trust element that there? There's a trust element that there? There's a trust element that it's not just does man can man talk the it's not just does man can man talk the it's not just does man can man talk the talk can he walk the walk there's talk can he walk the walk there's talk can he walk the walk there's there's just an inherent trust element there's just an inherent trust element there's just an inherent trust element of of kind of like this is my baby this of of kind of like this is my baby this of of kind of like this is my baby this is something that I built and now I'm is something that I built and now I'm is something that I built and now I'm I'm I'm I'm getting advice from you and I'm not sure getting advice from you and I'm not sure getting advice from you and I'm not sure how I should how I should how I should approach that advice. approach that advice. approach that advice. In it's a change management issue, In it's a change management issue, In it's a change management issue, right? So, for you know, right? So, for you know, right? So, for you know, how do you go about that challenge? Like how do you go about that challenge? Like how do you go about that challenge? Like how do you overcome that challenge of how do you overcome that challenge of how do you overcome that challenge of trust, right? Cuz trust is is the number trust, right? Cuz trust is is the number trust, right? Cuz trust is is the number one thing that is going to help you one thing that is going to help you one thing that is going to help you really to be successful with with what really to be successful with with what really to be successful with with what you're offering. you're offering. you're offering. >> Yeah, I think you hit the nail on the >> Yeah, I think you hit the nail on the >> Yeah, I think you hit the nail on the head, James. Um, it's it's all about head, James. Um, it's it's all about head, James. Um, it's it's all about trust and credibility, right? I think trust and credibility, right? I think trust and credibility, right? I think um, the more authentic you can come um, the more authentic you can come um, the more authentic you can come across across across as as a fractional executive coming into as as a fractional executive coming into as as a fractional executive coming into a business the better. a business the better. a business the better. Um, I I don't know all the answers. I Um, I I don't know all the answers. I Um, I I don't know all the answers. I know a lot and I've and I've seen a lot, know a lot and I've and I've seen a lot, know a lot and I've and I've seen a lot, but I don't know all the answers, right? but I don't know all the answers, right? but I don't know all the answers, right? So, I think the So, I think the So, I think the and I'll talk to founders and I'll talk and I'll talk to founders and I'll talk and I'll talk to founders and I'll talk to CEOs and they'll say they talked to to CEOs and they'll say they talked to to CEOs and they'll say they talked to other fractional executives, you know, other fractional executives, you know, other fractional executives, you know, in interviews or kind of pitches and in interviews or kind of pitches and in interviews or kind of pitches and sometimes some come across as they kind sometimes some come across as they kind sometimes some come across as they kind of know all the answers and they kind of of know all the answers and they kind of of know all the answers and they kind of are, you know, like the parent telling are, you know, like the parent telling are, you know, like the parent telling the child like hey, you're doing it the child like hey, you're doing it the child like hey, you're doing it wrong. This is how you should be doing wrong. This is how you should be doing wrong. This is how you should be doing it and that's never that's never been my it and that's never that's never been my it and that's never that's never been my approach. Um, even if I know there's approach. Um, even if I know there's approach. Um, even if I know there's something glaringly obvious like in my something glaringly obvious like in my something glaringly obvious like in my initial kind of consultation with an initial kind of consultation with an initial kind of consultation with an organization, I want to understand why organization, I want to understand why organization, I want to understand why it's there and how it's gotten there it's there and how it's gotten there it's there and how it's gotten there because to your point it's all about because to your point it's all about because to your point it's all about change management. I can come in and say change management. I can come in and say change management. I can come in and say this is everything we need to do.

this is everything we need to do. this is everything we need to do. Here you go. Here's your gap analysis Here you go. Here's your gap analysis Here you go. Here's your gap analysis and good luck. But that's not going to and good luck. But that's not going to and good luck. But that's not going to change anything, right? I mean, I've change anything, right? I mean, I've change anything, right? I mean, I've been on on other side of that in in the been on on other side of that in in the been on on other side of that in in the corporate world where the big consulting corporate world where the big consulting corporate world where the big consulting companies have come in, made big companies have come in, made big companies have come in, made big changes, giving us kind of that, you changes, giving us kind of that, you changes, giving us kind of that, you know, really nice polished report, and know, really nice polished report, and know, really nice polished report, and then we kind of go back to basically then we kind of go back to basically then we kind of go back to basically doing what we did before they came on, doing what we did before they came on, doing what we did before they came on, right? Maybe some minor changes here and right? Maybe some minor changes here and right? Maybe some minor changes here and there, but we weren't doing anything there, but we weren't doing anything there, but we weren't doing anything transformational. Um so my transformational. Um so my transformational. Um so my my biggest piece, right, is is that my biggest piece, right, is is that my biggest piece, right, is is that relationship. It it really comes down to relationship. It it really comes down to relationship. It it really comes down to that relationship. And if that means, that relationship. And if that means, that relationship. And if that means, you know, being there face-to-face with you know, being there face-to-face with you know, being there face-to-face with them, you know, for those initial them, you know, for those initial them, you know, for those initial meetings, you know, being there in the meetings, you know, being there in the meetings, you know, being there in the office if it's local, um being on, you office if it's local, um being on, you office if it's local, um being on, you know, know, know, consistent, you know, meetings on a consistent, you know, meetings on a consistent, you know, meetings on a week-to-week basis, giving updates, week-to-week basis, giving updates, week-to-week basis, giving updates, really getting to know the team. One of really getting to know the team. One of really getting to know the team. One of the first things I do, two of the first the first things I do, two of the first the first things I do, two of the first two of the things I do when I have a two of the things I do when I have a two of the things I do when I have a first consultation or a, first consultation or a, first consultation or a, you know, engagement with a new customer you know, engagement with a new customer you know, engagement with a new customer is is is one, I want to meet one, I want to meet one, I want to meet all the all the people in the all the all the people in the all the all the people in the organization that matter that they think organization that matter that they think organization that matter that they think I should meet. So I typically do like I should meet. So I typically do like I should meet. So I typically do like 20-30 minute conversations with 20-30 minute conversations with 20-30 minute conversations with everybody, and I just pack like 2 days everybody, and I just pack like 2 days everybody, and I just pack like 2 days because it's really important for me to because it's really important for me to because it's really important for me to understand understand understand from the executives all the way down to from the executives all the way down to from the executives all the way down to through the organization, what's through the organization, what's through the organization, what's happening, what's working, what's not, happening, what's working, what's not, happening, what's working, what's not, and really get that insight because then and really get that insight because then and really get that insight because then that helps me, that helps me, that helps me, you know, I'm not I'm not going to come you know, I'm not I'm not going to come you know, I'm not I'm not going to come in with all these assumptions. I have in with all these assumptions. I have in with all these assumptions. I have some ideas from some of the initial some ideas from some of the initial some ideas from some of the initial conversations, but that really helps me conversations, but that really helps me conversations, but that really helps me plan the best next steps.

plan the best next steps. plan the best next steps. And then the other big thing is kind of And then the other big thing is kind of And then the other big thing is kind of to the point that we were talking about to the point that we were talking about to the point that we were talking about earlier, earlier, earlier, having client focus groups, talking having client focus groups, talking having client focus groups, talking directly to the clients, right? Because directly to the clients, right? Because directly to the clients, right? Because a lot of these founders say, "Oh yeah, a lot of these founders say, "Oh yeah, a lot of these founders say, "Oh yeah, our clients love us and this is why they our clients love us and this is why they our clients love us and this is why they love us." love us." love us." Um but a lot of that is kind of going Um but a lot of that is kind of going Um but a lot of that is kind of going back to that sea of sameness. We're kind back to that sea of sameness. We're kind back to that sea of sameness. We're kind of saying the same thing as every other of saying the same thing as every other of saying the same thing as every other competitor is in the market, right? So competitor is in the market, right? So competitor is in the market, right? So directly from those clients and having directly from those clients and having directly from those clients and having those authentic conversations with the those authentic conversations with the those authentic conversations with the end customer is really key because then end customer is really key because then end customer is really key because then you can start as a marketer, a you can start as a marketer, a you can start as a marketer, a salesperson start really collecting what salesperson start really collecting what salesperson start really collecting what what actually made them purchase, you what actually made them purchase, you what actually made them purchase, you know, your service or solution, what know, your service or solution, what know, your service or solution, what keeps them staying, what made them keeps them staying, what made them keeps them staying, what made them choose you over a competitor, and then choose you over a competitor, and then choose you over a competitor, and then you can feed that back into your you can feed that back into your you can feed that back into your messaging framework and your messaging framework and your messaging framework and your go-to-market messaging um to drive that go-to-market messaging um to drive that go-to-market messaging um to drive that consistency, right? So, consistency, right? So, consistency, right? So, um [snorts] and all of those, you know, um [snorts] and all of those, you know, um [snorts] and all of those, you know, meetings not only help me meetings not only help me meetings not only help me learn about the business, but I think learn about the business, but I think learn about the business, but I think going back to your question, it it going back to your question, it it going back to your question, it it really helps solidify that, hey, Matt really helps solidify that, hey, Matt really helps solidify that, hey, Matt really cares about us and he's not just really cares about us and he's not just really cares about us and he's not just basically copying pasting a playbook basically copying pasting a playbook basically copying pasting a playbook that he's done 10 million times across that he's done 10 million times across that he's done 10 million times across the business. He's actually making this the business. He's actually making this the business. He's actually making this very authentic um to who we are as an very authentic um to who we are as an very authentic um to who we are as an organization and where we want to go as organization and where we want to go as organization and where we want to go as a as a company because, yeah, a as a company because, yeah, a as a company because, yeah, these founder-led organizations, they're these founder-led organizations, they're these founder-led organizations, they're the baby, right, of of those founders, the baby, right, of of those founders, the baby, right, of of those founders, and um you don't ever want to tell, and um you don't ever want to tell, and um you don't ever want to tell, you know, somebody that their baby's you know, somebody that their baby's you know, somebody that their baby's ugly, right? But you want to be able to ugly, right? But you want to be able to ugly, right? But you want to be able to help them get the baby to the next help them get the baby to the next help them get the baby to the next level, so.

level, so. level, so. >> But that that is that is a it's a >> But that that is that is a it's a >> But that that is that is a it's a difficult um it's a difficult balancing difficult um it's a difficult balancing difficult um it's a difficult balancing act to act to act to embrace the need to get feedback, but embrace the need to get feedback, but embrace the need to get feedback, but also acknowledge that this is someone also acknowledge that this is someone also acknowledge that this is someone else's baby. So, if that's the case, in else's baby. So, if that's the case, in else's baby. So, if that's the case, in your shoes, you you have these your shoes, you you have these your shoes, you you have these conversations with with customers, conversations with with customers, conversations with with customers, users, you get the feedback. users, you get the feedback. users, you get the feedback. What is a lesson that you've taken from What is a lesson that you've taken from What is a lesson that you've taken from that experience that you could offer our that experience that you could offer our that experience that you could offer our listeners today in terms of having those listeners today in terms of having those listeners today in terms of having those um honest conversations, but you want um honest conversations, but you want um honest conversations, but you want the real feedback, not superficial the real feedback, not superficial the real feedback, not superficial feedback of, "Oh, James, that was a feedback of, "Oh, James, that was a feedback of, "Oh, James, that was a great pitch." Like, no, you want to know great pitch." Like, no, you want to know great pitch." Like, no, you want to know what it what what was it that resonated? what it what what was it that resonated? what it what what was it that resonated? What what is it that that missed the What what is it that that missed the What what is it that that missed the mark? What is it that's, you know, that mark? What is it that's, you know, that mark? What is it that's, you know, that that that sort of like latent need that that that sort of like latent need that that that sort of like latent need that they don't even realize they have? Like, they don't even realize they have? Like, they don't even realize they have? Like, what's some advice that you could give what's some advice that you could give what's some advice that you could give to our listeners on how to ask some of to our listeners on how to ask some of to our listeners on how to ask some of those questions? those questions? those questions? >> Yeah, I mean, I I think the >> Yeah, I mean, I I think the >> Yeah, I mean, I I think the the biggest is just having like an the biggest is just having like an the biggest is just having like an authentic conversation with your authentic conversation with your authentic conversation with your customers, right? Because I think customers, right? Because I think customers, right? Because I think customers are completely honest, customers are completely honest, customers are completely honest, typically, right? Yes, there's some that typically, right? Yes, there's some that typically, right? Yes, there's some that will kind of make every like rainbow and will kind of make every like rainbow and will kind of make every like rainbow and sunshine sunshine sunshine um and everything's great, but um and everything's great, but um and everything's great, but there's also been a lot of customers there's also been a lot of customers there's also been a lot of customers where I talk to and they're like, yeah, where I talk to and they're like, yeah, where I talk to and they're like, yeah, things were going really really great, things were going really really great, things were going really really great, but actually this stuff, but actually this stuff, but actually this stuff, if we could do this better, that would if we could do this better, that would if we could do this better, that would make a huge difference, right? So, I make a huge difference, right? So, I make a huge difference, right? So, I think hearing directly from the clients think hearing directly from the clients think hearing directly from the clients and your customers and your customers and your customers um is is huge. Um hearing that feedback um is is huge. Um hearing that feedback um is is huge. Um hearing that feedback direct from them. And and honestly, direct from them. And and honestly, direct from them. And and honestly, coming in as kind of an outsider in my coming in as kind of an outsider in my coming in as kind of an outsider in my role, role, role, they sometimes tend to be more open and

they sometimes tend to be more open and they sometimes tend to be more open and honest with me uh versus maybe the honest with me uh versus maybe the honest with me uh versus maybe the stakeholder that they work with every stakeholder that they work with every stakeholder that they work with every day at that company. Um so, using day at that company. Um so, using day at that company. Um so, using somebody like myself or somebody as an somebody like myself or somebody as an somebody like myself or somebody as an outsider to gain kind of this outsider to gain kind of this outsider to gain kind of this this true feel of the customers is this true feel of the customers is this true feel of the customers is really really really um you know, a a potential tool that I um you know, a a potential tool that I um you know, a a potential tool that I think other founders could use as well think other founders could use as well think other founders could use as well in their own businesses. in their own businesses. in their own businesses. >> Today's episode is brought to you by >> Today's episode is brought to you by >> Today's episode is brought to you by hunter.io, the B2B lead generation hunter.io, the B2B lead generation hunter.io, the B2B lead generation platform made for every professional. platform made for every professional. platform made for every professional. Whether it's prospecting, fundraising, Whether it's prospecting, fundraising, Whether it's prospecting, fundraising, recruiting, link building, or just recruiting, link building, or just recruiting, link building, or just trying to connect with the right [music] trying to connect with the right [music] trying to connect with the right [music] people, Hunter makes it easy. people, Hunter makes it easy. people, Hunter makes it easy. >> No doubt. And and I think that it kind >> No doubt. And and I think that it kind >> No doubt. And and I think that it kind of goes back to that issue of of trust, of goes back to that issue of of trust, of goes back to that issue of of trust, isn't it? And trust is a it's a two-way isn't it? And trust is a it's a two-way isn't it? And trust is a it's a two-way thing, you know. So, one of the things thing, you know. So, one of the things thing, you know. So, one of the things that that can be hard is that that can be hard is that that can be hard is if you're a founder is to is to get if you're a founder is to is to get if you're a founder is to is to get help. Say that you're more of a help. Say that you're more of a help. Say that you're more of a um um um product mindset. You're a technical product mindset. You're a technical product mindset. You're a technical founder, and you potentially need to get founder, and you potentially need to get founder, and you potentially need to get the help of someone like yourself, Matt, the help of someone like yourself, Matt, the help of someone like yourself, Matt, and and and you know, really see how and and and you know, really see how and and and you know, really see how different skills and tactics are going different skills and tactics are going different skills and tactics are going to be help be able to help you to grow to be help be able to help you to grow to be help be able to help you to grow the business. Um the business. Um the business. Um you've taken a different approach. Like you've taken a different approach. Like you've taken a different approach. Like you you've actually fully embraced this you you've actually fully embraced this you you've actually fully embraced this idea of building relationships, and um idea of building relationships, and um idea of building relationships, and um you you know, you have this this thing you you know, you have this this thing you you know, you have this this thing called the the fractional CRO called the the fractional CRO called the the fractional CRO collective. Can you tell us a bit about collective. Can you tell us a bit about collective. Can you tell us a bit about that and and sort of why you think that that and and sort of why you think that that and and sort of why you think that is the right way to approach um offering is the right way to approach um offering is the right way to approach um offering the services that you do to these the services that you do to these the services that you do to these businesses?

businesses? businesses? >> For sure. So, I think the collective is >> For sure. So, I think the collective is >> For sure. So, I think the collective is really my idea of of um an attempt at really my idea of of um an attempt at really my idea of of um an attempt at building a community, right? So, I think building a community, right? So, I think building a community, right? So, I think there's there's two ways when I look at there's there's two ways when I look at there's there's two ways when I look at my own business. There's two ways that my own business. There's two ways that my own business. There's two ways that I've I've I've kind of just always thought that I could kind of just always thought that I could kind of just always thought that I could scale. One is I could hire a bunch of scale. One is I could hire a bunch of scale. One is I could hire a bunch of staff that executes staff that executes staff that executes and you know, builds out a sequence or and you know, builds out a sequence or and you know, builds out a sequence or builds out social copy or builds out builds out social copy or builds out builds out social copy or builds out emails or whatever I I am doing and emails or whatever I I am doing and emails or whatever I I am doing and rolling up my sleeves with the clients rolling up my sleeves with the clients rolling up my sleeves with the clients and I could just kind of sit at the and I could just kind of sit at the and I could just kind of sit at the strategy level. strategy level. strategy level. Or I can identify others like me that Or I can identify others like me that Or I can identify others like me that can do strategy to execution with other can do strategy to execution with other can do strategy to execution with other companies that come into our portfolio. companies that come into our portfolio. companies that come into our portfolio. The reason I've gone the second route is The reason I've gone the second route is The reason I've gone the second route is because the first route because the first route because the first route yes, I can grow and scale, but there's yes, I can grow and scale, but there's yes, I can grow and scale, but there's also still a limit, right? Like I could also still a limit, right? Like I could also still a limit, right? Like I could only work with so many clients and I only work with so many clients and I only work with so many clients and I think there's really a lot of think there's really a lot of think there's really a lot of opportunity out there and a lot of need. opportunity out there and a lot of need. opportunity out there and a lot of need. I also think there's a ton of value I also think there's a ton of value I also think there's a ton of value going back to what we've been talking going back to what we've been talking going back to what we've been talking about James with like that authentic and about James with like that authentic and about James with like that authentic and that relationship building. If I'm going that relationship building. If I'm going that relationship building. If I'm going to just sit here as a true kind of to just sit here as a true kind of to just sit here as a true kind of consultant and just do strategy and not consultant and just do strategy and not consultant and just do strategy and not actually ever get my hands dirty, to me actually ever get my hands dirty, to me actually ever get my hands dirty, to me there's something like not so valuable, there's something like not so valuable, there's something like not so valuable, especially at the size companies that especially at the size companies that especially at the size companies that I'm working with in this mid-tier. Like I'm working with in this mid-tier. Like I'm working with in this mid-tier. Like they they they they need somebody that can wear both they need somebody that can wear both they need somebody that can wear both hats, the strategy and the execution.

hats, the strategy and the execution. hats, the strategy and the execution. And if I just kind of do the strategy And if I just kind of do the strategy And if I just kind of do the strategy and then pass it on to somebody that and then pass it on to somebody that and then pass it on to somebody that maybe doesn't have a relationship or maybe doesn't have a relationship or maybe doesn't have a relationship or doesn't understand the business things doesn't understand the business things doesn't understand the business things can get lost in translation. So I just can get lost in translation. So I just can get lost in translation. So I just think think think it it sometimes is better, especially in it it sometimes is better, especially in it it sometimes is better, especially in the size organization that I'm the size organization that I'm the size organization that I'm partnering with to have somebody that partnering with to have somebody that partnering with to have somebody that understands the business, that's running understands the business, that's running understands the business, that's running the strategy and that is able to execute the strategy and that is able to execute the strategy and that is able to execute that strategy on the back end. So really that strategy on the back end. So really that strategy on the back end. So really the collective is looking for others the collective is looking for others the collective is looking for others that want to work with customers similar that want to work with customers similar that want to work with customers similar that I do. So really building those that I do. So really building those that I do. So really building those relationships, collaborating with them, relationships, collaborating with them, relationships, collaborating with them, listening first before, you know, listening first before, you know, listening first before, you know, acting, you know, all of those kind of acting, you know, all of those kind of acting, you know, all of those kind of core values that I built out in core values that I built out in core values that I built out in Fractional CRO over the last 6 months Fractional CRO over the last 6 months Fractional CRO over the last 6 months um is really identifying um is really identifying um is really identifying others like me um that can sit on the others like me um that can sit on the others like me um that can sit on the bench and that you know, I can bring bench and that you know, I can bring bench and that you know, I can bring them in on on different opportunities them in on on different opportunities them in on on different opportunities with prospects and customers with prospects and customers with prospects and customers um, but more than ever really, um, but more than ever really, um, but more than ever really, you know, start to build a community and you know, start to build a community and you know, start to build a community and of like-minded professionals. Being able of like-minded professionals. Being able of like-minded professionals. Being able to talk about what's going on, what are to talk about what's going on, what are to talk about what's going on, what are we seeing, similar to what me and you we seeing, similar to what me and you we seeing, similar to what me and you tend to talk about, you know, like what tend to talk about, you know, like what tend to talk about, you know, like what are we seeing across sales and are we seeing across sales and are we seeing across sales and marketing.

marketing. marketing. Um, any advice or thoughts or hey, I'm Um, any advice or thoughts or hey, I'm Um, any advice or thoughts or hey, I'm dealing with this problem with a current dealing with this problem with a current dealing with this problem with a current customer of mine, like have you dealt customer of mine, like have you dealt customer of mine, like have you dealt with the same thing? How did you, you with the same thing? How did you, you with the same thing? How did you, you know, how did you go about it? Like just know, how did you go about it? Like just know, how did you go about it? Like just sharing best practices, right? Which I sharing best practices, right? Which I sharing best practices, right? Which I think, think, think, um, in professional circles, like um, in professional circles, like um, in professional circles, like there's not always the best kind of there's not always the best kind of there's not always the best kind of reliable circles and communities that reliable circles and communities that reliable circles and communities that you can tap into for really honest you can tap into for really honest you can tap into for really honest feedback and answers, and that's really feedback and answers, and that's really feedback and answers, and that's really what I'm trying to build, um, out of the what I'm trying to build, um, out of the what I'm trying to build, um, out of the collective. And yes, I think there's collective. And yes, I think there's collective. And yes, I think there's other values of of joining the other values of of joining the other values of of joining the collective from like a kind of back collective from like a kind of back collective from like a kind of back office, setting up your own business. A office, setting up your own business. A office, setting up your own business. A lot of CROs, honestly, James, as I lot of CROs, honestly, James, as I lot of CROs, honestly, James, as I launched Fractional CRO, launched Fractional CRO, launched Fractional CRO, have reached out to me, said, "How did have reached out to me, said, "How did have reached out to me, said, "How did you get started?" you get started?" you get started?" I just got started. I had an idea and I I just got started. I had an idea and I I just got started. I had an idea and I built out my website and I built out my website and I built out my website and I built out I needed to build consulting built out I needed to build consulting built out I needed to build consulting agreements, so I went and did the agreements, so I went and did the agreements, so I went and did the research and built consulting research and built consulting research and built consulting agreements. I had to build, you know, agreements. I had to build, you know, agreements. I had to build, you know, proposals. I had to build pitch decks. I proposals. I had to build pitch decks. I proposals. I had to build pitch decks. I had to do all of this stuff. And a lot had to do all of this stuff. And a lot had to do all of this stuff. And a lot of CROs, of CROs, of CROs, I don't know if they're they're lazy or I don't know if they're they're lazy or I don't know if they're they're lazy or they just don't want to, they just want they just don't want to, they just want they just don't want to, they just want to get to the fun stuff, which is to get to the fun stuff, which is to get to the fun stuff, which is working with clients. They don't want to working with clients. They don't want to working with clients. They don't want to do all that back end stuff. So, I think do all that back end stuff. So, I think do all that back end stuff. So, I think there's also value there of like, hey, there's also value there of like, hey, there's also value there of like, hey, join the collective and you get the join the collective and you get the join the collective and you get the brand recognition, brand recognition, brand recognition, all of this marketing and sales that all of this marketing and sales that all of this marketing and sales that I've I've done for the business already I've I've done for the business already I've I've done for the business already from day one, right? So, you get that from day one, right? So, you get that from day one, right? So, you get that brand recognition right away, you get brand recognition right away, you get brand recognition right away, you get the tools right away, etc.

the tools right away, etc. the tools right away, etc. Um, and then I think that collective Um, and then I think that collective Um, and then I think that collective piece and that community piece of like piece and that community piece of like piece and that community piece of like just sharing best practices, sharing just sharing best practices, sharing just sharing best practices, sharing what's happening, what's happening, what's happening, um, connecting dots across an industry um, connecting dots across an industry um, connecting dots across an industry that sometimes is disconnected, um, that sometimes is disconnected, um, that sometimes is disconnected, um, that's ultimately what I'm looking to that's ultimately what I'm looking to that's ultimately what I'm looking to do. And not do. And not do. And not I don't need 100, 200 people in this I don't need 100, 200 people in this I don't need 100, 200 people in this collective. I really want it to be a collective. I really want it to be a collective. I really want it to be a small, intimate group, um, that get to small, intimate group, um, that get to small, intimate group, um, that get to know each other, really build know each other, really build know each other, really build relationships within the collective that relationships within the collective that relationships within the collective that then we can translate and and be better then we can translate and and be better then we can translate and and be better for the customers that we work with. for the customers that we work with. for the customers that we work with. >> And that that that's really important. >> And that that that's really important. >> And that that that's really important. It's no different from you know, my team It's no different from you know, my team It's no different from you know, my team here at Hunter making sure that I can I here at Hunter making sure that I can I here at Hunter making sure that I can I can trust my team and they have the can trust my team and they have the can trust my team and they have the right skills and we're able to help on right skills and we're able to help on right skills and we're able to help on another level of our personal another level of our personal another level of our personal development. Like clearly that is that development. Like clearly that is that development. Like clearly that is that that's important no matter what the that's important no matter what the that's important no matter what the structure is in terms of business that structure is in terms of business that structure is in terms of business that you're that you're working in or that you're that you're working in or that you're that you're working in or that you that you run. So, you said something you that you run. So, you said something you that you run. So, you said something there about kind of like the getting to there about kind of like the getting to there about kind of like the getting to the fun stuff. the fun stuff. the fun stuff. >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> I want to get to the I want to get to >> I want to get to the I want to get to >> I want to get to the I want to get to the fun stuff in terms of like how are the fun stuff in terms of like how are the fun stuff in terms of like how are you getting to market right now? Like you getting to market right now? Like you getting to market right now? Like what are you what are you doing to raise what are you what are you doing to raise what are you what are you doing to raise awareness? What are you doing to win you awareness? What are you doing to win you awareness? What are you doing to win you know, your your your customers and sort know, your your your customers and sort know, your your your customers and sort of how are you are you passing on those of how are you are you passing on those of how are you are you passing on those insights? And are they are they insights? And are they are they insights? And are they are they influencing the services that you offer influencing the services that you offer influencing the services that you offer when you actually have those clients?

when you actually have those clients? when you actually have those clients? >> I've taken a very kind of the I feel >> I've taken a very kind of the I feel >> I've taken a very kind of the I feel like the running red thread of our like the running red thread of our like the running red thread of our conversation has been around conversation has been around conversation has been around authenticity, right? I've kind taken a authenticity, right? I've kind taken a authenticity, right? I've kind taken a very authentic approach to how I've gone very authentic approach to how I've gone very authentic approach to how I've gone to market for fractional CRO. to market for fractional CRO. to market for fractional CRO. Um I don't want to come across as one of Um I don't want to come across as one of Um I don't want to come across as one of like the big fractional shops out there. like the big fractional shops out there. like the big fractional shops out there. Um at the end of the day it's a people Um at the end of the day it's a people Um at the end of the day it's a people business, right? To our points earlier business, right? To our points earlier business, right? To our points earlier our questions and conversation earlier, our questions and conversation earlier, our questions and conversation earlier, they're buying me as as a as an they're buying me as as a as an they're buying me as as a as an executive, as a leader to come in and executive, as a leader to come in and executive, as a leader to come in and and work alongside their leadership team and work alongside their leadership team and work alongside their leadership team and their their overall organization. and their their overall organization. and their their overall organization. So, they have to know who I am and and So, they have to know who I am and and So, they have to know who I am and and have a good understanding of what have a good understanding of what have a good understanding of what they're investing in, right? So, I've they're investing in, right? So, I've they're investing in, right? So, I've taken a very personal approach. So, the taken a very personal approach. So, the taken a very personal approach. So, the personal approach has extended to personal approach has extended to personal approach has extended to LinkedIn and sharing, you know, personal LinkedIn and sharing, you know, personal LinkedIn and sharing, you know, personal updates like completing a triathlon and updates like completing a triathlon and updates like completing a triathlon and what that actually taught me about what that actually taught me about what that actually taught me about running a business, for example, and running a business, for example, and running a business, for example, and really bringing those personal elements really bringing those personal elements really bringing those personal elements into into into kind of my go-to-market messaging and kind of my go-to-market messaging and kind of my go-to-market messaging and and what I talk about out there. and what I talk about out there. and what I talk about out there. Coupling that obviously with like Coupling that obviously with like Coupling that obviously with like some more advice, how-tos, things like some more advice, how-tos, things like some more advice, how-tos, things like that.

that. that. Um but really that personal approach, Um but really that personal approach, Um but really that personal approach, right? So, one of the things I right? So, one of the things I right? So, one of the things I I did recently is I I partnered with a I did recently is I I partnered with a I did recently is I I partnered with a old colleague of mine who's now running old colleague of mine who's now running old colleague of mine who's now running fractional CPO CRO as well. So, he also fractional CPO CRO as well. So, he also fractional CPO CRO as well. So, he also comes from a professional services comes from a professional services comes from a professional services um background just like myself. We have um background just like myself. We have um background just like myself. We have combined around 50 years of experience. combined around 50 years of experience. combined around 50 years of experience. So, we're starting to do like a video So, we're starting to do like a video So, we're starting to do like a video series, right? So, once again kind of series, right? So, once again kind of series, right? So, once again kind of getting our faces, our personalities out getting our faces, our personalities out getting our faces, our personalities out there in front. there in front. there in front. I could care less about the brand of I could care less about the brand of I could care less about the brand of fractional CRO. I want people to see me fractional CRO. I want people to see me fractional CRO. I want people to see me as the fractional CRO. as the fractional CRO. as the fractional CRO. Um and really connect with me or not Um and really connect with me or not Um and really connect with me or not connect with me, right? And then we connect with me, right? And then we connect with me, right? And then we realize that I'm not the right fit for realize that I'm not the right fit for realize that I'm not the right fit for their organization. And I think that's their organization. And I think that's their organization. And I think that's that's one of the big things um that's one of the big things um that's one of the big things um if I could give any advice from founder if I could give any advice from founder if I could give any advice from founder to founders that I've learned kind of as to founders that I've learned kind of as to founders that I've learned kind of as I've grown my own business, I've grown my own business, I've grown my own business, that is not always going to be 100% um that is not always going to be 100% um that is not always going to be 100% um alignment and a good a prospect turn alignment and a good a prospect turn alignment and a good a prospect turn into a customer, right? I think it's a into a customer, right? I think it's a into a customer, right? I think it's a two-way street. They have to feel like two-way street. They have to feel like two-way street. They have to feel like yes, hey, this guy Matt is going to yes, hey, this guy Matt is going to yes, hey, this guy Matt is going to really help and like we're going to make really help and like we're going to make really help and like we're going to make this investment time and money into this investment time and money into this investment time and money into bringing him on board and he's going to bringing him on board and he's going to bringing him on board and he's going to accomplish everything that we need to accomplish everything that we need to accomplish everything that we need to accomplish as a business.

accomplish as a business. accomplish as a business. But even if they feel that way, it might But even if they feel that way, it might But even if they feel that way, it might not be that you feel the same with with not be that you feel the same with with not be that you feel the same with with them, right? Like there are prospects them, right? Like there are prospects them, right? Like there are prospects out there that I just know from the out there that I just know from the out there that I just know from the first or second conversation that this first or second conversation that this first or second conversation that this is may they're maybe looking for is may they're maybe looking for is may they're maybe looking for something that I'm not going to be able something that I'm not going to be able something that I'm not going to be able to deliver or they're looking for a to deliver or they're looking for a to deliver or they're looking for a silver bullet and my services are not a silver bullet and my services are not a silver bullet and my services are not a silver bullet, right? I'm going to give silver bullet, right? I'm going to give silver bullet, right? I'm going to give you all the foundational tools, you all the foundational tools, you all the foundational tools, processes, approaches, strategy, and processes, approaches, strategy, and processes, approaches, strategy, and execution that I can to make you execution that I can to make you execution that I can to make you successful and get you to where you need successful and get you to where you need successful and get you to where you need to be, but I'm not going to come in and to be, but I'm not going to come in and to be, but I'm not going to come in and swoop in 1 month and you're going to swoop in 1 month and you're going to swoop in 1 month and you're going to have a million opportunities and a have a million opportunities and a have a million opportunities and a million dollars in pipeline, right? million dollars in pipeline, right? million dollars in pipeline, right? That's just not realistic. So, it's That's just not realistic. So, it's That's just not realistic. So, it's aligning those expectations, but also aligning those expectations, but also aligning those expectations, but also understanding culturally that hey, understanding culturally that hey, understanding culturally that hey, I'm aligned with you and what who you I'm aligned with you and what who you I'm aligned with you and what who you are as a founder or co-founders and your are as a founder or co-founders and your are as a founder or co-founders and your organization and where you want to go organization and where you want to go organization and where you want to go and you're aligned with me from a and you're aligned with me from a and you're aligned with me from a personal perspective and see me as an personal perspective and see me as an personal perspective and see me as an extension of your leadership team. I extension of your leadership team. I extension of your leadership team. I think that's really important. think that's really important. think that's really important. >> I I wouldn't say it's a hot take. I I >> I I wouldn't say it's a hot take. I I >> I I wouldn't say it's a hot take. I I definitely have some thoughts on this definitely have some thoughts on this definitely have some thoughts on this because what I don't see a lot of because what I don't see a lot of because what I don't see a lot of are agencies or or fractional services are agencies or or fractional services are agencies or or fractional services that that are very explicit in what they that that are very explicit in what they that that are very explicit in what they don't want from a from a from a client.

don't want from a from a from a client. don't want from a from a from a client. Um I don't see [clears throat] like web Um I don't see [clears throat] like web Um I don't see [clears throat] like web pages on their site saying, "Here's who pages on their site saying, "Here's who pages on their site saying, "Here's who I am. Here's why who I expect you to I am. Here's why who I expect you to I am. Here's why who I expect you to be." I don't see a lot of um and this is be." I don't see a lot of um and this is be." I don't see a lot of um and this is like this is not revolutionary, but like this is not revolutionary, but like this is not revolutionary, but again, people aren't really doing it. I again, people aren't really doing it. I again, people aren't really doing it. I don't see a lot of like pre cool don't see a lot of like pre cool don't see a lot of like pre cool homework that is designed to get the homework that is designed to get the homework that is designed to get the client to invest a little bit of time client to invest a little bit of time client to invest a little bit of time and you can see if they've done the and you can see if they've done the and you can see if they've done the homework, like how serious are they? homework, like how serious are they? homework, like how serious are they? Like where where's the order Like where where's the order Like where where's the order prioritization? How do you feel about prioritization? How do you feel about prioritization? How do you feel about that? How do you feel about that concept that? How do you feel about that concept that? How do you feel about that concept where you're very clear and this is what where you're very clear and this is what where you're very clear and this is what I would expect from you and making it, I would expect from you and making it, I would expect from you and making it, you know, public knowledge that this is you know, public knowledge that this is you know, public knowledge that this is what you would expect. what you would expect. what you would expect. >> Yeah, I have a couple different opinions >> Yeah, I have a couple different opinions >> Yeah, I have a couple different opinions on that. I think, you know, if I if I on that. I think, you know, if I if I on that. I think, you know, if I if I flip it to some clients and we've done flip it to some clients and we've done flip it to some clients and we've done similar kind of things, like almost like similar kind of things, like almost like similar kind of things, like almost like I call them knock out questions, right? I call them knock out questions, right? I call them knock out questions, right? Or like homework to your point. Or like homework to your point. Or like homework to your point. They are always a little bit hesitant They are always a little bit hesitant They are always a little bit hesitant that it's going to like that it's going to like that it's going to like cancel out other people that maybe they cancel out other people that maybe they cancel out other people that maybe they should talk to. And my my opinion always should talk to. And my my opinion always should talk to. And my my opinion always is like, "But are are they just going to is like, "But are are they just going to is like, "But are are they just going to waste time, right? Are you going to waste time, right? Are you going to waste time, right? Are you going to waste 30 minutes, 45 minutes, an hour, waste 30 minutes, 45 minutes, an hour, waste 30 minutes, 45 minutes, an hour, you know, talking to them, putting you know, talking to them, putting you know, talking to them, putting together proposal and then it's never together proposal and then it's never together proposal and then it's never going to work out?" Or worse, going to work out?" Or worse, going to work out?" Or worse, you you force it through and then 6 you you force it through and then 6 you you force it through and then 6 months down the road you're like, "This months down the road you're like, "This months down the road you're like, "This this was a big waste of both of our this was a big waste of both of our this was a big waste of both of our times and I'm sorry and this didn't work times and I'm sorry and this didn't work times and I'm sorry and this didn't work out and it just actually caused more out and it just actually caused more out and it just actually caused more headaches than anything for you as a headaches than anything for you as a headaches than anything for you as a business owner." It's funny cuz I preach business owner." It's funny cuz I preach business owner." It's funny cuz I preach ICP all the time to all my customers is ICP all the time to all my customers is ICP all the time to all my customers is really identifying who your ideal really identifying who your ideal really identifying who your ideal customer is, but to your point, when customer is, but to your point, when customer is, but to your point, when you're start starting a company, you're start starting a company, you're start starting a company, everybody's your ideal customer. Anybody everybody's your ideal customer. Anybody everybody's your ideal customer. Anybody that would like sign on the dotted line,

that would like sign on the dotted line, that would like sign on the dotted line, you want to bring in. But then as you you want to bring in. But then as you you want to bring in. But then as you start to evolve and grow, you start to start to evolve and grow, you start to start to evolve and grow, you start to really find what your what your niche really find what your what your niche really find what your what your niche is. And is. And is. And yeah, I I I'm not opposed to it, right? yeah, I I I'm not opposed to it, right? yeah, I I I'm not opposed to it, right? I I think I I think I I think but I think a lot of times, at least but I think a lot of times, at least but I think a lot of times, at least with the founders that I'm working with, with the founders that I'm working with, with the founders that I'm working with, they have maybe one or two ideas in they have maybe one or two ideas in they have maybe one or two ideas in mind, but they don't really truly mind, but they don't really truly mind, but they don't really truly understand the full picture or understand the full picture or understand the full picture or understand really maybe where all of the understand really maybe where all of the understand really maybe where all of the pain or gaps are in their business. So, pain or gaps are in their business. So, pain or gaps are in their business. So, it would have to be kind of it would have to be kind of it would have to be kind of I don't know, very high level of like I don't know, very high level of like I don't know, very high level of like what you're looking for. Like, I don't what you're looking for. Like, I don't what you're looking for. Like, I don't do, you know, web development, right? do, you know, web development, right? do, you know, web development, right? But I could do content and messaging or But I could do content and messaging or But I could do content and messaging or something. Like, you have to almost be something. Like, you have to almost be something. Like, you have to almost be very specific because very specific because very specific because a lot of the initial calls I have with a lot of the initial calls I have with a lot of the initial calls I have with with prospects are with prospects are with prospects are they don't even know some of the they don't even know some of the they don't even know some of the problems they have, right? Until we problems they have, right? Until we problems they have, right? Until we start talking and I start asking start talking and I start asking start talking and I start asking questions and, you know, maybe they just questions and, you know, maybe they just questions and, you know, maybe they just think, think, think, "Hey, we have a lead problem or we have "Hey, we have a lead problem or we have "Hey, we have a lead problem or we have a go-to-market messaging problem or we a go-to-market messaging problem or we a go-to-market messaging problem or we have a our sales team, like we don't we have a our sales team, like we don't we have a our sales team, like we don't we have one sales person and they're not have one sales person and they're not have one sales person and they're not doing anything, you know, right?" Like, doing anything, you know, right?" Like, doing anything, you know, right?" Like, and then you start to dig in and even 30 and then you start to dig in and even 30 and then you start to dig in and even 30 minutes you can start to realize, "Oh, minutes you can start to realize, "Oh, minutes you can start to realize, "Oh, actually, there are some foundational actually, there are some foundational actually, there are some foundational pieces." But so, I wouldn't want to pieces." But so, I wouldn't want to pieces." But so, I wouldn't want to knock out those conversations because I knock out those conversations because I knock out those conversations because I think those are super valuable for me as think those are super valuable for me as think those are super valuable for me as a founder and I think probably a lot of a founder and I think probably a lot of a founder and I think probably a lot of other founders that kind of fine-tune other founders that kind of fine-tune other founders that kind of fine-tune their pitch and what what matters to their pitch and what what matters to their pitch and what what matters to founders founders founders um and prospects that they're talking um and prospects that they're talking um and prospects that they're talking to.

to. to. But I'm all for But I'm all for But I'm all for kind of narrowing down so you're not kind of narrowing down so you're not kind of narrowing down so you're not wasting your time with people that are wasting your time with people that are wasting your time with people that are never going to be a good partner for never going to be a good partner for never going to be a good partner for you. you. you. >> Right. Right. And I guess so like >> Right. Right. And I guess so like >> Right. Right. And I guess so like Okay, so Okay, so Okay, so if everyone is your early customer, like if everyone is your early customer, like if everyone is your early customer, like ideal customer at the beginning, how do ideal customer at the beginning, how do ideal customer at the beginning, how do you in your engagements, how do you help you in your engagements, how do you help you in your engagements, how do you help people to actually define the ICP people to actually define the ICP people to actually define the ICP um um um that you know, that clearly they need to that you know, that clearly they need to that you know, that clearly they need to be able to define to to scale. Like, be able to define to to scale. Like, be able to define to to scale. Like, what do you do? What's that process look what do you do? What's that process look what do you do? What's that process look like? like? like? >> Yeah, I mean, there's there's two >> Yeah, I mean, there's there's two >> Yeah, I mean, there's there's two different ways to really approach it. different ways to really approach it. different ways to really approach it. There's more of like the There's more of like the There's more of like the the technical data-driven like finance the technical data-driven like finance the technical data-driven like finance way of like looking at your, you know, way of like looking at your, you know, way of like looking at your, you know, three, four, five years of data, like three, four, five years of data, like three, four, five years of data, like which customers were the most which customers were the most which customers were the most profitable, like reoccurring revenue, profitable, like reoccurring revenue, profitable, like reoccurring revenue, all all of the data points you can pull all all of the data points you can pull all all of the data points you can pull from a CFO to really understand, "Okay, from a CFO to really understand, "Okay, from a CFO to really understand, "Okay, these are the buckets we should go after these are the buckets we should go after these are the buckets we should go after because we want we want that same exact because we want we want that same exact because we want we want that same exact customer profile. That I've done a customer profile. That I've done a customer profile. That I've done a couple different times. It just it couple different times. It just it couple different times. It just it really depends on the size of the really depends on the size of the really depends on the size of the business and and the data that they business and and the data that they business and and the data that they have, right? And kind of their how they have, right? And kind of their how they have, right? And kind of their how they go to market.

go to market. go to market. Typically the way that I approach it is Typically the way that I approach it is Typically the way that I approach it is let's look at all your existing let's look at all your existing let's look at all your existing customers customers customers and which ones are good customers and and which ones are good customers and and which ones are good customers and which ones aren't good customers, right? which ones aren't good customers, right? which ones aren't good customers, right? And really dive into the ones that are And really dive into the ones that are And really dive into the ones that are good customers and why they're good good customers and why they're good good customers and why they're good customers and start to kind of build customers and start to kind of build customers and start to kind of build back that into a profile or an ICP back that into a profile or an ICP back that into a profile or an ICP profile and then ultimately buyer profile and then ultimately buyer profile and then ultimately buyer persona profiles. And that's typically persona profiles. And that's typically persona profiles. And that's typically like a workshop with like a workshop with like a workshop with sales, operations people, leadership, sales, operations people, leadership, sales, operations people, leadership, etc., you know, couple hour workshops etc., you know, couple hour workshops etc., you know, couple hour workshops starting to kind of jot that down. starting to kind of jot that down. starting to kind of jot that down. I have some questions that I typically I have some questions that I typically I have some questions that I typically lead into, but lead into, but lead into, but as they start to, you know, a lot of it as they start to, you know, a lot of it as they start to, you know, a lot of it is surface level to a degree and then is surface level to a degree and then is surface level to a degree and then you start to really dig in in those in you start to really dig in in those in you start to really dig in in those in those kind of whiteboard sessions and those kind of whiteboard sessions and those kind of whiteboard sessions and understand really what makes these ICPs understand really what makes these ICPs understand really what makes these ICPs tick or why this ICP versus the other. tick or why this ICP versus the other. tick or why this ICP versus the other. Nailing down the ICPs is the hard part. Nailing down the ICPs is the hard part. Nailing down the ICPs is the hard part. The hard part is then getting the teams The hard part is then getting the teams The hard part is then getting the teams aligned to just focus on those ICPs and aligned to just focus on those ICPs and aligned to just focus on those ICPs and I have a couple clients that I have a couple clients that I have a couple clients that it took a while, but once they it took a while, but once they it took a while, but once they understood that hey, this is this is all understood that hey, this is this is all understood that hey, this is this is all we care about, then it goes into every we care about, then it goes into every we care about, then it goes into every other piece of your sales and marketing other piece of your sales and marketing other piece of your sales and marketing and go to market strategy, right? You and go to market strategy, right? You and go to market strategy, right? You Okay, we shouldn't do this partnership Okay, we shouldn't do this partnership Okay, we shouldn't do this partnership because that's our ICP doesn't hang out because that's our ICP doesn't hang out because that's our ICP doesn't hang out there that doesn't matter to them or there that doesn't matter to them or there that doesn't matter to them or we shouldn't send this type of we shouldn't send this type of we shouldn't send this type of communication because they don't communication because they don't communication because they don't communicate that way or we shouldn't go communicate that way or we shouldn't go communicate that way or we shouldn't go to this event because our ICP's not to this event because our ICP's not to this event because our ICP's not there, right? So it really gives them there, right? So it really gives them there, right? So it really gives them that filter and if they start to filter that filter and if they start to filter that filter and if they start to filter everything in their go-to-market motions everything in their go-to-market motions everything in their go-to-market motions with that ideal customer, with that ideal customer, with that ideal customer, that's the harder part I would say that's the harder part I would say that's the harder part I would say versus just identifying the ICPs.

versus just identifying the ICPs. versus just identifying the ICPs. Um the other struggle, honestly James, Um the other struggle, honestly James, Um the other struggle, honestly James, is that is that is that you have founders still couple years, you have founders still couple years, you have founders still couple years, you know, in business, grown to you you know, in business, grown to you you know, in business, grown to you know, good amount of revenue. They think know, good amount of revenue. They think know, good amount of revenue. They think like everybody's their ICP still, so you like everybody's their ICP still, so you like everybody's their ICP still, so you have to kind of you have to kind of have to kind of you have to kind of have to kind of you have to kind of narrow it down in that you can then narrow it down in that you can then narrow it down in that you can then bring in the finest okay, like how you bring in the finest okay, like how you bring in the finest okay, like how you have 50 customers have 50 customers have 50 customers 30% of them are in education. So let's 30% of them are in education. So let's 30% of them are in education. So let's focus on education and like what's then focus on education and like what's then focus on education and like what's then the messaging and our approach for the messaging and our approach for the messaging and our approach for education customers for example. So education customers for example. So education customers for example. So really starting to kind of coach them really starting to kind of coach them really starting to kind of coach them into that you don't need to have one into that you don't need to have one into that you don't need to have one ideal customer, but maybe have ideal ideal customer, but maybe have ideal ideal customer, but maybe have ideal industries that you go after for industries that you go after for industries that you go after for example. example. example. >> Mario. >> Mario. >> Mario. >> Yeah, yeah, I mean it it's it's why you >> Yeah, yeah, I mean it it's it's why you >> Yeah, yeah, I mean it it's it's why you here. I mean there are different ways to here. I mean there are different ways to here. I mean there are different ways to phrase it, right? You could say multiple phrase it, right? You could say multiple phrase it, right? You could say multiple ICPs. You could say that they are ICPs. You could say that they are ICPs. You could say that they are trenches of your ICP because they they trenches of your ICP because they they trenches of your ICP because they they you know, they add up to the entirety of you know, they add up to the entirety of you know, they add up to the entirety of your user base, but I think from my your user base, but I think from my your user base, but I think from my experience coming from a from a head of experience coming from a from a head of experience coming from a from a head of marketing perspective for the last 13 marketing perspective for the last 13 marketing perspective for the last 13 years when I've had that conversation years when I've had that conversation years when I've had that conversation with founders with founders with founders it's been very challenging because I it's been very challenging because I it's been very challenging because I think there's a there's a reluctance to think there's a there's a reluctance to think there's a there's a reluctance to niche down. There's just this reluctance niche down. There's just this reluctance niche down. There's just this reluctance to say okay, but yeah, but my my address to say okay, but yeah, but my my address to say okay, but yeah, but my my address my total addressable market is is you my total addressable market is is you my total addressable market is is you know, it's a hundred million companies, know, it's a hundred million companies, know, it's a hundred million companies, but in reality you probably best serve but in reality you probably best serve but in reality you probably best serve 2,000. It's it's hard to hear that, but 2,000. It's it's hard to hear that, but 2,000. It's it's hard to hear that, but I think I think I think it it to your point that that lens helps it it to your point that that lens helps it it to your point that that lens helps you to narrow down to like okay, well you to narrow down to like okay, well you to narrow down to like okay, well for this segment these are the places for this segment these are the places for this segment these are the places that they that this these persona go, that they that this these persona go, that they that this these persona go, these are the competitors they look at,

these are the competitors they look at, these are the competitors they look at, here's how we stack up from that here's how we stack up from that here's how we stack up from that perspective. It it really should help perspective. It it really should help perspective. It it really should help you to color everything and I think if you to color everything and I think if you to color everything and I think if you're a founder listening who's at the you're a founder listening who's at the you're a founder listening who's at the beginning of your journey, don't be beginning of your journey, don't be beginning of your journey, don't be afraid to do that because you could you afraid to do that because you could you afraid to do that because you could you could try that across multiple um could try that across multiple um could try that across multiple um uh profiles and find out what sticks. uh profiles and find out what sticks. uh profiles and find out what sticks. Like don't be afraid to be more Like don't be afraid to be more Like don't be afraid to be more segmented and segmented and segmented and it's having that courage to to to narrow it's having that courage to to to narrow it's having that courage to to to narrow down that down that down that really and again, you know, talking to a really and again, you know, talking to a really and again, you know, talking to a couple of different people recently, couple of different people recently, couple of different people recently, that's what made them successful. They that's what made them successful. They that's what made them successful. They had initial success, then it stalled, had initial success, then it stalled, had initial success, then it stalled, and then they thought, well, I need to and then they thought, well, I need to and then they thought, well, I need to do something different. Had do something different. Had do something different. Had conversations with users, figured out conversations with users, figured out conversations with users, figured out there were you know, three or four there were you know, three or four there were you know, three or four things that that weren't really things that that weren't really things that that weren't really clicking, but found out there were two clicking, but found out there were two clicking, but found out there were two segments that were doing really well, segments that were doing really well, segments that were doing really well, and then they doubled down, tripled and then they doubled down, tripled and then they doubled down, tripled down, and and grew up from those down, and and grew up from those down, and and grew up from those segments. segments. segments. >> 100%. I mean, it goes back to the >> 100%. I mean, it goes back to the >> 100%. I mean, it goes back to the simplicity piece that we talked about simplicity piece that we talked about simplicity piece that we talked about with the channel, right? It's like if with the channel, right? It's like if with the channel, right? It's like if you are trying to be everything to you are trying to be everything to you are trying to be everything to everyone, first of all, you're going to everyone, first of all, you're going to everyone, first of all, you're going to be flooded in the sea of sameness. be flooded in the sea of sameness. be flooded in the sea of sameness. You're not going to differentiate You're not going to differentiate You're not going to differentiate yourself, right? Because your message is yourself, right? Because your message is yourself, right? Because your message is going to sound so broad and and out going to sound so broad and and out going to sound so broad and and out there, it's not going to speak to any there, it's not going to speak to any there, it's not going to speak to any one of the buyers, you know? It's going one of the buyers, you know? It's going one of the buyers, you know? It's going to speak to everybody, which means that to speak to everybody, which means that to speak to everybody, which means that it speaks to nobody, ultimately. And the it speaks to nobody, ultimately. And the it speaks to nobody, ultimately. And the other piece, too, is other piece, too, is other piece, too, is if you don't nail down that ICP, if you don't nail down that ICP, if you don't nail down that ICP, then you don't know how to go after then you don't know how to go after then you don't know how to go after them, right? Look at all the leads that them, right? Look at all the leads that them, right? Look at all the leads that have come in. What were the win rates or have come in. What were the win rates or have come in. What were the win rates or conversion rates on those leads that conversion rates on those leads that conversion rates on those leads that came in, right? And okay, you wasted a came in, right? And okay, you wasted a came in, right? And okay, you wasted a lot of time in this vertical, and you lot of time in this vertical, and you lot of time in this vertical, and you think that that's a market for you, but think that that's a market for you, but think that that's a market for you, but you've wasted a lot of time, and you've you've wasted a lot of time, and you've you've wasted a lot of time, and you've only won 5% of those win those

only won 5% of those win those only won 5% of those win those opportunities, right? But here, you've opportunities, right? But here, you've opportunities, right? But here, you've had 10 calls that have come in, you've had 10 calls that have come in, you've had 10 calls that have come in, you've not landed 60, you know, 60% of them, not landed 60, you know, 60% of them, not landed 60, you know, 60% of them, six out of 10. six out of 10. six out of 10. You've obviously we have something that You've obviously we have something that You've obviously we have something that clicks with that type of buyer, right? clicks with that type of buyer, right? clicks with that type of buyer, right? So, So, So, that's another data point that sometimes that's another data point that sometimes that's another data point that sometimes validates, um, a little bit, but also, validates, um, a little bit, but also, validates, um, a little bit, but also, to your point earlier, is like to your point earlier, is like to your point earlier, is like focus on something small, be the best at focus on something small, be the best at focus on something small, be the best at that, capture as much market share as that, capture as much market share as that, capture as much market share as possible from that, and then use that as possible from that, and then use that as possible from that, and then use that as a vehicle and a story to then tell into a vehicle and a story to then tell into a vehicle and a story to then tell into you know, subsequent verticals or ICPs you know, subsequent verticals or ICPs you know, subsequent verticals or ICPs that make sense, right? So, I mean, for that make sense, right? So, I mean, for that make sense, right? So, I mean, for me, come from staffing and recruitment, me, come from staffing and recruitment, me, come from staffing and recruitment, that is a very clear ICP that I can go that is a very clear ICP that I can go that is a very clear ICP that I can go after, and I am going after. after, and I am going after. after, and I am going after. But what's a one that is like a parallel But what's a one that is like a parallel But what's a one that is like a parallel industry? After that, I can go into industry? After that, I can go into industry? After that, I can go into professional services, right? Cuz that professional services, right? Cuz that professional services, right? Cuz that makes sense, it's aligned, you're makes sense, it's aligned, you're makes sense, it's aligned, you're selling solutions from a marketing and selling solutions from a marketing and selling solutions from a marketing and sales perspective. So, don't be afraid, sales perspective. So, don't be afraid, sales perspective. So, don't be afraid, to your point, to start off small, be to your point, to start off small, be to your point, to start off small, be the best the best the best in that niche, and gain as much market in that niche, and gain as much market in that niche, and gain as much market share as possible.

share as possible. share as possible. And then when you've totally tapped out And then when you've totally tapped out And then when you've totally tapped out that market, then you can add on, right? that market, then you can add on, right? that market, then you can add on, right? But I think a lot of these But I think a lot of these But I think a lot of these organizations, especially organizations, especially organizations, especially you don't have a huge team. How are you you don't have a huge team. How are you you don't have a huge team. How are you going to go after an entire addressable going to go after an entire addressable going to go after an entire addressable market? You know, with a with a team of market? You know, with a with a team of market? You know, with a with a team of one and a half marketers and sales one and a half marketers and sales one and a half marketers and sales people. Like it's not possible. So, people. Like it's not possible. So, people. Like it's not possible. So, really focus that small team on a small really focus that small team on a small really focus that small team on a small vertical and be really, really good and vertical and be really, really good and vertical and be really, really good and precise on messaging, go-to-market, precise on messaging, go-to-market, precise on messaging, go-to-market, sales approach, everything. sales approach, everything. sales approach, everything. there and then scale from there. there and then scale from there. there and then scale from there. It's exactly like we talked about the It's exactly like we talked about the It's exactly like we talked about the channel strategy, right? Like simple is channel strategy, right? Like simple is channel strategy, right? Like simple is better. better. better. >> Right. >> Right. >> Right. >> Build the foundation, build the the the >> Build the foundation, build the the the >> Build the foundation, build the the the muscle memory muscle memory muscle memory and then scale it from there. and then scale it from there. and then scale it from there. >> Yeah, and I think that, you know, that >> Yeah, and I think that, you know, that >> Yeah, and I think that, you know, that that leads me into sort of that leads me into sort of that leads me into sort of this this this idea that that I don't this this this idea that that I don't this this this idea that that I don't think a lot of people talk about. If think a lot of people talk about. If think a lot of people talk about. If you've gone through all this effort to you've gone through all this effort to you've gone through all this effort to define your ICP and then you found those define your ICP and then you found those define your ICP and then you found those segments you can potentially verticalize segments you can potentially verticalize segments you can potentially verticalize in, in, in, there's also this this um there's also this this um there's also this this um and and and I would love to hear what you think I would love to hear what you think I would love to hear what you think about this. about this. about this. Not enough people are scoring leads once Not enough people are scoring leads once Not enough people are scoring leads once they get into CRMs. Not enough people they get into CRMs. Not enough people they get into CRMs. Not enough people are prioritizing those leads based on are prioritizing those leads based on are prioritizing those leads based on the information you shared there, right?

the information you shared there, right? the information you shared there, right? So, naturally what would flow from So, naturally what would flow from So, naturally what would flow from understanding your win rate of a understanding your win rate of a understanding your win rate of a particular segment is a potential score particular segment is a potential score particular segment is a potential score that you could assign to every lead that that you could assign to every lead that that you could assign to every lead that comes in based on the company they comes in based on the company they comes in based on the company they belong to, who they who they are as a as belong to, who they who they are as a as belong to, who they who they are as a as an individual. What Why do you think an individual. What Why do you think an individual. What Why do you think that not enough people are are that not enough people are are that not enough people are are prioritizing their leads even though prioritizing their leads even though prioritizing their leads even though it's it's basic functionality that's it's it's basic functionality that's it's it's basic functionality that's been included in in most marketing been included in in most marketing been included in in most marketing automation and and CRM systems for automation and and CRM systems for automation and and CRM systems for probably close to 10 years. probably close to 10 years. probably close to 10 years. >> Yeah. I I think they First of all, they >> Yeah. I I think they First of all, they >> Yeah. I I think they First of all, they probably don't know what to score it on. probably don't know what to score it on. probably don't know what to score it on. Like they they don't understand what Like they they don't understand what Like they they don't understand what good looks like from a lead perspective good looks like from a lead perspective good looks like from a lead perspective necessarily. So, that's one piece. And I necessarily. So, that's one piece. And I necessarily. So, that's one piece. And I think the other piece goes to your other think the other piece goes to your other think the other piece goes to your other point earlier is point earlier is point earlier is they're they're afraid that they're they're they're afraid that they're they're they're afraid that they're they're going to they're going to score they're going to they're going to score they're going to they're going to score people that kick them out of the process people that kick them out of the process people that kick them out of the process and they're going to lose potential and they're going to lose potential and they're going to lose potential business opportunities. I think that's business opportunities. I think that's business opportunities. I think that's what needs to click with founders and what needs to click with founders and what needs to click with founders and and leaders of organizations is that and leaders of organizations is that and leaders of organizations is that you're you're not saying no you're you're not saying no you're you're not saying no to business, you're saying no to bad to business, you're saying no to bad to business, you're saying no to bad business, right? So, you're saying no to business, right? So, you're saying no to business, right? So, you're saying no to business that's going to ultimately hurt business that's going to ultimately hurt business that's going to ultimately hurt you in the end. It's going to drain you in the end. It's going to drain you in the end. It's going to drain resources, time, money, whatever versus resources, time, money, whatever versus resources, time, money, whatever versus focusing on focusing on focusing on the ones that are going to be easy, the ones that are going to be easy, the ones that are going to be easy, right? You got to be for you're copying right? You got to be for you're copying right? You got to be for you're copying pasting your approach, your messaging, pasting your approach, your messaging, pasting your approach, your messaging, everything that you've done before. Why everything that you've done before. Why everything that you've done before. Why make it harder for yourself and for the make it harder for yourself and for the make it harder for yourself and for the end customer end customer end customer if you if you if you if you've done this before, right?

if you've done this before, right? if you've done this before, right? Versus trying to kind of fit your your Versus trying to kind of fit your your Versus trying to kind of fit your your your value and your your value prop into your value and your your value prop into your value and your your value prop into something that, you know, it's like something that, you know, it's like something that, you know, it's like a round peg in a square hole idea, a round peg in a square hole idea, a round peg in a square hole idea, right? Like it doesn't make sense, but I right? Like it doesn't make sense, but I right? Like it doesn't make sense, but I understand why people do it because understand why people do it because understand why people do it because they're afraid of losing out on they're afraid of losing out on they're afraid of losing out on potential business when they should be potential business when they should be potential business when they should be thinking thinking thinking actually that's going to save us time, actually that's going to save us time, actually that's going to save us time, energy, and money in the future. I'm energy, and money in the future. I'm energy, and money in the future. I'm focusing just on the ones that, you focusing just on the ones that, you focusing just on the ones that, you know, our lead score seven and above or know, our lead score seven and above or know, our lead score seven and above or whatever, right? And I think it also whatever, right? And I think it also whatever, right? And I think it also like we knock out questions, all of like we knock out questions, all of like we knock out questions, all of that. Like there's a lot that we can do, that. Like there's a lot that we can do, that. Like there's a lot that we can do, especially with AI now especially with AI now especially with AI now on really pre-qualifying those leads on really pre-qualifying those leads on really pre-qualifying those leads coming in, right? So, there's a lot of coming in, right? So, there's a lot of coming in, right? So, there's a lot of tools, not only in our CRMs, but built tools, not only in our CRMs, but built tools, not only in our CRMs, but built in our CRMs or plugins where you can in our CRMs or plugins where you can in our CRMs or plugins where you can have have have not your sales team, but one or two not your sales team, but one or two not your sales team, but one or two people or if you have a larger sales people or if you have a larger sales people or if you have a larger sales team, they're not doing some of that team, they're not doing some of that team, they're not doing some of that pre-qualification, right? You can pre-qualification, right? You can pre-qualification, right? You can automate a lot of that so that they're automate a lot of that so that they're automate a lot of that so that they're only spending their quality time only spending their quality time only spending their quality time with quality conversations, which I with quality conversations, which I with quality conversations, which I think is really key, especially in these think is really key, especially in these think is really key, especially in these medium-sized companies.

medium-sized companies. medium-sized companies. >> Right. Yeah, yeah. That makes me me >> Right. Yeah, yeah. That makes me me >> Right. Yeah, yeah. That makes me me think of sort of think of sort of think of sort of something really that you hear a lot something really that you hear a lot something really that you hear a lot about cold email is that it is about cold email is that it is about cold email is that it is square peg, round hole. And square peg, round hole. And square peg, round hole. And I believe that when a a cold email is of I believe that when a a cold email is of I believe that when a a cold email is of high quality, it can actually lead to high quality, it can actually lead to high quality, it can actually lead to something. something. something. What is the best cold email that you've What is the best cold email that you've What is the best cold email that you've received and what was good about it? received and what was good about it? received and what was good about it? >> I can't think of a specific one. I know >> I can't think of a specific one. I know >> I can't think of a specific one. I know the ones that I click or engage on are the ones that I click or engage on are the ones that I click or engage on are either one or two things. They're either either one or two things. They're either either one or two things. They're either very personal, like they've done some very personal, like they've done some very personal, like they've done some research and I'm not talking about fake research and I'm not talking about fake research and I'm not talking about fake personal, like you know, you use a personal, like you know, you use a personal, like you know, you use a couple of tokens and pull some stuff couple of tokens and pull some stuff couple of tokens and pull some stuff from my LinkedIn profile, but you from my LinkedIn profile, but you from my LinkedIn profile, but you actually actually actually spent, I don't know, two minutes looking spent, I don't know, two minutes looking spent, I don't know, two minutes looking me up and figuring out who I was and me up and figuring out who I was and me up and figuring out who I was and what I care about. Those or just like what I care about. Those or just like what I care about. Those or just like super humorous or or like consistent, super humorous or or like consistent, super humorous or or like consistent, too. Like I've gotten a several cold too. Like I've gotten a several cold too. Like I've gotten a several cold emails that you know it's part of a emails that you know it's part of a emails that you know it's part of a sequence, like I think anybody knows, sequence, like I think anybody knows, sequence, like I think anybody knows, but I definitely know from my seat. It's but I definitely know from my seat. It's but I definitely know from my seat. It's part of a sequence, but just the part of a sequence, but just the part of a sequence, but just the consistency of it and the being able to consistency of it and the being able to consistency of it and the being able to not give up, I think, because I've been not give up, I think, because I've been not give up, I think, because I've been on the other side. I've been a sales on the other side. I've been a sales on the other side. I've been a sales person. I still am a sales person and person. I still am a sales person and person. I still am a sales person and like I know how frustrating it is when like I know how frustrating it is when like I know how frustrating it is when you don't hear after 20 touch points.

you don't hear after 20 touch points. you don't hear after 20 touch points. But like that consistent touch, you But like that consistent touch, you But like that consistent touch, you know, staying top of mind. If somebody's know, staying top of mind. If somebody's know, staying top of mind. If somebody's constantly following up with me and constantly following up with me and constantly following up with me and followed up with me multiple different followed up with me multiple different followed up with me multiple different ways and used humor at some point there, ways and used humor at some point there, ways and used humor at some point there, just because just because just because I react to humor better than other I react to humor better than other I react to humor better than other things, I think. things, I think. things, I think. That those have really always That those have really always That those have really always just the creative kind of humorous ones, just the creative kind of humorous ones, just the creative kind of humorous ones, I I tend to at least give them a little I I tend to at least give them a little I I tend to at least give them a little bit of time, like, "Hey, bit of time, like, "Hey, bit of time, like, "Hey, that that was good. Like I I want to that that was good. Like I I want to that that was good. Like I I want to kind of see the um kind of see the um kind of see the um you know, see see who's behind that." I you know, see see who's behind that." I you know, see see who's behind that." I mean, a perfect example is mean, a perfect example is mean, a perfect example is I just had it today is we I just had it today is we I just had it today is we need to clean the outsides of our need to clean the outsides of our need to clean the outsides of our windows at our house. And there's 10 windows at our house. And there's 10 windows at our house. And there's 10 million window cleaning companies um in million window cleaning companies um in million window cleaning companies um in Charlotte where I live. Charlotte where I live. Charlotte where I live. I I I receive probably text messages and receive probably text messages and receive probably text messages and emails from thousands of them, right? emails from thousands of them, right? emails from thousands of them, right? But there was one that stood out and But there was one that stood out and But there was one that stood out and just kind of their approach. They were just kind of their approach. They were just kind of their approach. They were humorous. humorous. humorous. They I saw some advertisements. I they They I saw some advertisements. I they They I saw some advertisements. I they popped up on Instagram. I got some popped up on Instagram. I got some popped up on Instagram. I got some emails from them and just their emails from them and just their emails from them and just their they just made fun like they made fun of they just made fun like they made fun of they just made fun like they made fun of their industry basically and they just their industry basically and they just their industry basically and they just you could tell they were having fun like you could tell they were having fun like you could tell they were having fun like the founders and the workers were having the founders and the workers were having the founders and the workers were having fun. So I think that fun. So I think that fun. So I think that that personal approach and the fun humor that personal approach and the fun humor that personal approach and the fun humor like like like we're spending so much time working like we're spending so much time working like we're spending so much time working like we might as well have fun and enjoy it we might as well have fun and enjoy it we might as well have fun and enjoy it and and and be with people that enjoy and and and be with people that enjoy and and and be with people that enjoy it. So I'd much rather give my money to it. So I'd much rather give my money to it. So I'd much rather give my money to clean windows to somebody that comes clean windows to somebody that comes clean windows to somebody that comes across as they really enjoy this job and across as they really enjoy this job and across as they really enjoy this job and love doing what they do versus somebody love doing what they do versus somebody love doing what they do versus somebody that just you know happen to give me a

that just you know happen to give me a that just you know happen to give me a discount or like hit me at the right discount or like hit me at the right discount or like hit me at the right moment, right? So I think moment, right? So I think moment, right? So I think that the humorous side and the personal that the humorous side and the personal that the humorous side and the personal side are really key for me in any side are really key for me in any side are really key for me in any outreach email or or anything else. outreach email or or anything else. outreach email or or anything else. >> The data would support what you just >> The data would support what you just >> The data would support what you just said there. Apart from the funny thing, said there. Apart from the funny thing, said there. Apart from the funny thing, everything else you said there is everything else you said there is everything else you said there is exactly what the the best practices exactly what the the best practices exactly what the the best practices would would would would would agree with. Before we wrap would would agree with. Before we wrap would would agree with. Before we wrap up, what is one piece of advice that you up, what is one piece of advice that you up, what is one piece of advice that you wish you could have given yourself wish you could have given yourself wish you could have given yourself before the fractional CRO journey began? before the fractional CRO journey began? before the fractional CRO journey began? >> I think one piece of advice give myself >> I think one piece of advice give myself >> I think one piece of advice give myself is is is don't be so hard on yourself. don't be so hard on yourself. don't be so hard on yourself. I think I don't know if if you're I think I don't know if if you're I think I don't know if if you're anything like me, James, but anything like me, James, but anything like me, James, but probably a lot of founders are just hard probably a lot of founders are just hard probably a lot of founders are just hard on themselves or they're worried about on themselves or they're worried about on themselves or they're worried about stuff they can't control. stuff they can't control. stuff they can't control. Um and I've realized in the time that Um and I've realized in the time that Um and I've realized in the time that I've been doing this that I've been doing this that I've been doing this that there's a lot that you can't control, there's a lot that you can't control, there's a lot that you can't control, right? But if you can show up every day right? But if you can show up every day right? But if you can show up every day you know, ready to do something positive you know, ready to do something positive you know, ready to do something positive and in the right direction for your and in the right direction for your and in the right direction for your business, good things are going to business, good things are going to business, good things are going to happen. Yes, you're going to have bad happen. Yes, you're going to have bad happen. Yes, you're going to have bad days. I mean, there's plenty of days days. I mean, there's plenty of days days. I mean, there's plenty of days where I wake up and I'm just I know this where I wake up and I'm just I know this where I wake up and I'm just I know this is not going to be a good day or you get is not going to be a good day or you get is not going to be a good day or you get a phone call or an email or something a phone call or an email or something a phone call or an email or something doesn't you know, you thought you were doesn't you know, you thought you were doesn't you know, you thought you were going to land that one going to land that one going to land that one that one client and it doesn't work work that one client and it doesn't work work that one client and it doesn't work work out. Like that stinks for sure. But I out. Like that stinks for sure. But I out. Like that stinks for sure. But I think like if you let that think like if you let that think like if you let that dictate how you run your business and dictate how you run your business and dictate how you run your business and and what gets you up in the morning, and what gets you up in the morning, and what gets you up in the morning, then you're going to crush yourself a then you're going to crush yourself a then you're going to crush yourself a lot earlier than you need to, I think.

lot earlier than you need to, I think. lot earlier than you need to, I think. Pushing that aside and really focusing Pushing that aside and really focusing Pushing that aside and really focusing on why you've done this. And so for me, on why you've done this. And so for me, on why you've done this. And so for me, going back and saying, "Hey, going back and saying, "Hey, going back and saying, "Hey, you left the corporate world because of you left the corporate world because of you left the corporate world because of ABC reasons. You're doing this and ABC reasons. You're doing this and ABC reasons. You're doing this and you're excited to wake up every you're excited to wake up every you're excited to wake up every morning." Just kind of reiterating that morning." Just kind of reiterating that morning." Just kind of reiterating that to yourself, I think it's really to yourself, I think it's really to yourself, I think it's really is really key as you're growing is really key as you're growing is really key as you're growing something, especially if you're a a sole something, especially if you're a a sole something, especially if you're a a sole entrepreneur entrepreneur entrepreneur um or you have a team. I mean, I think um or you have a team. I mean, I think um or you have a team. I mean, I think either way it's it's really important to either way it's it's really important to either way it's it's really important to remember why you started um remember why you started um remember why you started um and not be hard on yourself. and not be hard on yourself. and not be hard on yourself. >> Those are brilliant words to end this >> Those are brilliant words to end this >> Those are brilliant words to end this episode. I've had uh yeah, a great time episode. I've had uh yeah, a great time episode. I've had uh yeah, a great time talking to you, Matt. Um thank you again talking to you, Matt. Um thank you again talking to you, Matt. Um thank you again for joining us. Everyone, that is Matt for joining us. Everyone, that is Matt for joining us. Everyone, that is Matt Lauro, the founder of Fractional CRO. If Lauro, the founder of Fractional CRO. If Lauro, the founder of Fractional CRO. If you want to hear more about um you want to hear more about um you want to hear more about um Fractional CRO, we will be sharing Fractional CRO, we will be sharing Fractional CRO, we will be sharing information in the description of this information in the description of this information in the description of this uh this episode, as [music] well as uh this episode, as [music] well as uh this episode, as [music] well as Matt's contact details. Um Matt, once Matt's contact details. Um Matt, once Matt's contact details. Um Matt, once again, thank you so much for joining us. again, thank you so much for joining us. again, thank you so much for joining us. >> Awesome, thanks, Jim. Thanks for having >> Awesome, thanks, Jim. Thanks for having >> Awesome, thanks, Jim. Thanks for having me. It was great. me. It was great. me. It was great. >> Thanks, Matt. If you like what you >> Thanks, Matt. If you like what you >> Thanks, Matt. If you like what you heard, please like, [music] heard, please like, [music] heard, please like, [music] subscribe, and tell even more of the subscribe, and tell even more of the subscribe, and tell even more of the Outbox community by visiting Outbox community by visiting Outbox community by visiting www.outbox.hunter.io.