Outfoxed podcast by Hunter.io | Ep. 1 Spike Johnson on the art of great email copywriting

This is Outfox, the podcast brought to This is Outfox, the podcast brought to you by hunter.io, the trusted lead you by hunter.io, the trusted lead you by hunter.io, the trusted lead generation platform with B2B generation platform with B2B generation platform with B2B professionals. Get ready for no professionals. Get ready for no professionals. Get ready for no playbooks, no posturing, and no egos. playbooks, no posturing, and no egos. playbooks, no posturing, and no egos. This is the show for the builders and This is the show for the builders and This is the show for the builders and not the theorists. Your host is Hunter not the theorists. Your host is Hunter not the theorists. Your host is Hunter CEO Matt Thar, and his guest today is CEO Matt Thar, and his guest today is CEO Matt Thar, and his guest today is award-winning photojournalist Spike award-winning photojournalist Spike award-winning photojournalist Spike Johnson. Let's get into it. Johnson. Let's get into it. Johnson. Let's get into it. >> Welcome to Outf Fox, Spike. It's great >> Welcome to Outf Fox, Spike. It's great >> Welcome to Outf Fox, Spike. It's great to finally get a chance to have this to finally get a chance to have this to finally get a chance to have this conversation. I feel like we've been conversation. I feel like we've been conversation. I feel like we've been talking about this for Oh god, I'm talking about this for Oh god, I'm talking about this for Oh god, I'm afraid to actually say how long I think afraid to actually say how long I think afraid to actually say how long I think we've been talking about this. Is it we've been talking about this. Is it we've been talking about this. Is it almost a year? almost a year? almost a year? >> Flies by, doesn't it? And thanks for >> Flies by, doesn't it? And thanks for >> Flies by, doesn't it? And thanks for having me on. It's a pleasure. I always having me on. It's a pleasure. I always having me on. It's a pleasure. I always love talking to you guys. love talking to you guys. love talking to you guys. >> Agreed. So, you should tell the story. >> Agreed. So, you should tell the story. >> Agreed. So, you should tell the story. So, how did how did we get connected, So, how did how did we get connected, So, how did how did we get connected, Spike? Let's let's let's tell the story Spike? Let's let's let's tell the story Spike? Let's let's let's tell the story of why you and I are having this of why you and I are having this of why you and I are having this conversation here today. conversation here today. conversation here today. >> Well, I think embarrassingly you might >> Well, I think embarrassingly you might >> Well, I think embarrassingly you might have seen one of my ads and downloaded have seen one of my ads and downloaded have seen one of my ads and downloaded my my my >> Not embarrassingly at all. I think that >> Not embarrassingly at all. I think that >> Not embarrassingly at all. I think that proves that it was very effective. I was proves that it was very effective. I was proves that it was very effective. I was a conversion for you. Yeah. a conversion for you. Yeah. a conversion for you. Yeah. >> Yeah. Yeah. There you go. That's how we >> Yeah. Yeah. There you go. That's how we >> Yeah. Yeah. There you go. That's how we got connected through conversion. Yeah. got connected through conversion. Yeah. got connected through conversion. Yeah. >> But before that, I'd been using your >> But before that, I'd been using your >> But before that, I'd been using your software for like a long time and then I software for like a long time and then I software for like a long time and then I saw the email from you and I saw your saw the email from you and I saw your saw the email from you and I saw your activity on my Instagram, saw that activity on my Instagram, saw that activity on my Instagram, saw that you're a photographer as well. So, it you're a photographer as well. So, it you're a photographer as well. So, it was a beautiful thing. It was I mean, I was a beautiful thing. It was I mean, I was a beautiful thing. It was I mean, I didn't know that you were the guy behind didn't know that you were the guy behind didn't know that you were the guy behind Hunter.

Hunter. Hunter. >> Yeah. Yeah. It it was uh not something >> Yeah. Yeah. It it was uh not something >> Yeah. Yeah. It it was uh not something heavily publicized or anything. So, like heavily publicized or anything. So, like heavily publicized or anything. So, like how would you know, right? You just use how would you know, right? You just use how would you know, right? You just use the software and it does what you need. the software and it does what you need. the software and it does what you need. But um yeah, the way you tell it is so But um yeah, the way you tell it is so But um yeah, the way you tell it is so much more polite cuz it sounds like much more polite cuz it sounds like much more polite cuz it sounds like stalking like the way you say it. But stalking like the way you say it. But stalking like the way you say it. But like no, it was uh it's funny. Every like no, it was uh it's funny. Every like no, it was uh it's funny. Every once in a while I feel like for myself, once in a while I feel like for myself, once in a while I feel like for myself, but I'm sure for others, your personal but I'm sure for others, your personal but I'm sure for others, your personal side of things and your work side side of things and your work side side of things and your work side inadvertently collide in strange ways. inadvertently collide in strange ways. inadvertently collide in strange ways. And that's yeah, that's exactly what And that's yeah, that's exactly what And that's yeah, that's exactly what happened with you. I saw your ad and it happened with you. I saw your ad and it happened with you. I saw your ad and it it said something about like learn how it said something about like learn how it said something about like learn how to learn how to pitch or learn how to to learn how to pitch or learn how to to learn how to pitch or learn how to get work as a photographer. And I was get work as a photographer. And I was get work as a photographer. And I was like, "Yeah, like I'm not planning to do like, "Yeah, like I'm not planning to do like, "Yeah, like I'm not planning to do that, but I'd like to know what that's that, but I'd like to know what that's that, but I'd like to know what that's all about." Like how how people how do all about." Like how how people how do all about." Like how how people how do people get paid for photography? And people get paid for photography? And people get paid for photography? And then I got into your your whole thing. I then I got into your your whole thing. I then I got into your your whole thing. I was like, you have a document for those was like, you have a document for those was like, you have a document for those who don't know, you have you had put who don't know, you have you had put who don't know, you have you had put together like a how to pitch your work together like a how to pitch your work together like a how to pitch your work document. And it just perfectly and document. And it just perfectly and document. And it just perfectly and concisely told the story of, hey, if you concisely told the story of, hey, if you concisely told the story of, hey, if you need to introduce yourself to get work, need to introduce yourself to get work, need to introduce yourself to get work, basically if you need to do cold basically if you need to do cold basically if you need to do cold outreach, here's a great way to do it. outreach, here's a great way to do it. outreach, here's a great way to do it. Here's a great template for it. Here's Here's a great template for it. Here's Here's a great template for it. Here's what's worked for me. and it didn't what's worked for me. and it didn't what's worked for me. and it didn't speak the same language we speak. It speak the same language we speak. It speak the same language we speak. It didn't use the same terms, but it was a didn't use the same terms, but it was a didn't use the same terms, but it was a perfect example that like every one of perfect example that like every one of perfect example that like every one of our customers needs to see. And that's our customers needs to see. And that's our customers needs to see. And that's what made me reach out. I was just like, what made me reach out. I was just like, what made me reach out. I was just like, aside the fact that I need to learn how aside the fact that I need to learn how aside the fact that I need to learn how to be a better photographer, holy cow, to be a better photographer, holy cow, to be a better photographer, holy cow, like can I please share this awesome like can I please share this awesome like can I please share this awesome work and uh you did a great job with it.

work and uh you did a great job with it. work and uh you did a great job with it. And I think it's uh it's high time we And I think it's uh it's high time we And I think it's uh it's high time we get this out so we can share that get this out so we can share that get this out so we can share that document because I think uh it still document because I think uh it still document because I think uh it still holds up really really well. holds up really really well. holds up really really well. >> Thanks, man. That's how you know that >> Thanks, man. That's how you know that >> Thanks, man. That's how you know that you're doing something not necessarily you're doing something not necessarily you're doing something not necessarily correct, but maybe that's how you know correct, but maybe that's how you know correct, but maybe that's how you know that you're doing the right thing for that you're doing the right thing for that you're doing the right thing for yourself if your work life and your yourself if your work life and your yourself if your work life and your personal life intersect. Like I think personal life intersect. Like I think personal life intersect. Like I think that's how you know things are things that's how you know things are things that's how you know things are things are right. And I didn't I began to have are right. And I didn't I began to have are right. And I didn't I began to have little conversations with yourself about little conversations with yourself about little conversations with yourself about that that lead magnet I wrote, the that that lead magnet I wrote, the that that lead magnet I wrote, the little pitching document and your little pitching document and your little pitching document and your colleague James. When I wrote it, I colleague James. When I wrote it, I colleague James. When I wrote it, I hadn't figured that it really it's just hadn't figured that it really it's just hadn't figured that it really it's just information, universal information on information, universal information on information, universal information on cult pitching. I hadn't figured honestly cult pitching. I hadn't figured honestly cult pitching. I hadn't figured honestly that it transcends my industry. It is. that it transcends my industry. It is. that it transcends my industry. It is. But that's sort of the secret sauce But that's sort of the secret sauce But that's sort of the secret sauce about cold outreach is if you just do about cold outreach is if you just do about cold outreach is if you just do the basics well, it can be very the basics well, it can be very the basics well, it can be very effective. And most people, they get so effective. And most people, they get so effective. And most people, they get so fixated on all the other stuff. They fixated on all the other stuff. They fixated on all the other stuff. They forget the basic premise is explain forget the basic premise is explain forget the basic premise is explain yourself, what your value is, why you're yourself, what your value is, why you're yourself, what your value is, why you're having, you know, why you're reaching having, you know, why you're reaching having, you know, why you're reaching out in the first place, and just how to out in the first place, and just how to out in the first place, and just how to position yourself. And that's somehow in position yourself. And that's somehow in position yourself. And that's somehow in all the cleverness, people seem to all the cleverness, people seem to all the cleverness, people seem to overlook that part, which I thought you overlook that part, which I thought you overlook that part, which I thought you nailed perfectly. And it just it does nailed perfectly. And it just it does nailed perfectly. And it just it does away with a lot of the BS. And that's I away with a lot of the BS. And that's I away with a lot of the BS. And that's I think what makes it I assume very think what makes it I assume very think what makes it I assume very effective.

effective. effective. >> Yeah, it is effective. Yeah. Well, I >> Yeah, it is effective. Yeah. Well, I >> Yeah, it is effective. Yeah. Well, I mean cold outreach is effective. Like mean cold outreach is effective. Like mean cold outreach is effective. Like you say, if you simplify message, you you say, if you simplify message, you you say, if you simplify message, you say what you have, why it's important say what you have, why it's important say what you have, why it's important for somebody else, highlight supply and for somebody else, highlight supply and for somebody else, highlight supply and demand a little. demand a little. demand a little. >> And that's really it. We talk all the >> And that's really it. We talk all the >> And that's really it. We talk all the time like people are always saying, time like people are always saying, time like people are always saying, what's the cliche marketing? Right what's the cliche marketing? Right what's the cliche marketing? Right person, right message, right time. And person, right message, right time. And person, right message, right time. And I'm like, you're not going to get time. I'm like, you're not going to get time. I'm like, you're not going to get time. Time, you can't guess. You're never Time, you can't guess. You're never Time, you can't guess. You're never going to get time right. And so you have going to get time right. And so you have going to get time right. And so you have to be almost perfect at the other two to be almost perfect at the other two to be almost perfect at the other two things for it to pay off. But you say things for it to pay off. But you say things for it to pay off. But you say cold outreach works, like that's a known cold outreach works, like that's a known cold outreach works, like that's a known fact. I had two conversations today fact. I had two conversations today fact. I had two conversations today where people are like, "Yeah, you know, where people are like, "Yeah, you know, where people are like, "Yeah, you know, it just never worked for us." Like it just never worked for us." Like it just never worked for us." Like somehow their business was so unique somehow their business was so unique somehow their business was so unique that cold outreach just wasn't that cold outreach just wasn't that cold outreach just wasn't effective. And I they they cocked. They effective. And I they they cocked. They effective. And I they they cocked. They were like, "Oh, but you know, I'm sure were like, "Oh, but you know, I'm sure were like, "Oh, but you know, I'm sure that was because of this reason or that that was because of this reason or that that was because of this reason or that reason." And that was probably true. But reason." And that was probably true. But reason." And that was probably true. But yeah, I love that you say like it's a yeah, I love that you say like it's a yeah, I love that you say like it's a foregone conclusion, but for a lot of foregone conclusion, but for a lot of foregone conclusion, but for a lot of people, it's really not. They don't. people, it's really not. They don't. people, it's really not. They don't. they've tried it or they've followed they've tried it or they've followed they've tried it or they've followed somebody's template and it didn't pay somebody's template and it didn't pay somebody's template and it didn't pay off for them or maybe their expectations off for them or maybe their expectations off for them or maybe their expectations were too high. But I actually think your were too high. But I actually think your were too high. But I actually think your perspective on that is really healthy perspective on that is really healthy perspective on that is really healthy because I feel like a lot of people because I feel like a lot of people because I feel like a lot of people don't necessarily trust that it works.

don't necessarily trust that it works. don't necessarily trust that it works. >> Yeah. There's one last piece of that >> Yeah. There's one last piece of that >> Yeah. There's one last piece of that equation though, isn't it? That your equation though, isn't it? That your equation though, isn't it? That your naysayers might be missing and it's naysayers might be missing and it's naysayers might be missing and it's volume or frequency, whichever you want volume or frequency, whichever you want volume or frequency, whichever you want to. You have to send enough emails. to. You have to send enough emails. to. You have to send enough emails. >> Yeah. And you have to write them in a >> Yeah. And you have to write them in a >> Yeah. And you have to write them in a way that if you send enough for it to be way that if you send enough for it to be way that if you send enough for it to be effective, you haven't alienated the effective, you haven't alienated the effective, you haven't alienated the person by the time they get there. But person by the time they get there. But person by the time they get there. But let's talk a little about so one of the let's talk a little about so one of the let's talk a little about so one of the things that you do really effectively in things that you do really effectively in things that you do really effectively in your content but is a great topic for us your content but is a great topic for us your content but is a great topic for us is like that your ideal customer is like that your ideal customer is like that your ideal customer profile. One of the things that I profile. One of the things that I profile. One of the things that I remember reading as I was thinking about remember reading as I was thinking about remember reading as I was thinking about that is how well you formatted the that is how well you formatted the that is how well you formatted the content with an understanding of who the content with an understanding of who the content with an understanding of who the audience was going to be. Talk about who audience was going to be. Talk about who audience was going to be. Talk about who is your ideal buyer, how you think about is your ideal buyer, how you think about is your ideal buyer, how you think about engaging that ideal. It's like talk engaging that ideal. It's like talk engaging that ideal. It's like talk about that process of like cultivating about that process of like cultivating about that process of like cultivating the audience that you're going to reach the audience that you're going to reach the audience that you're going to reach out to. Well, to give you a little out to. Well, to give you a little out to. Well, to give you a little synopsis of who I'm reaching out to, I synopsis of who I'm reaching out to, I synopsis of who I'm reaching out to, I suppose I have as a journalist, video suppose I have as a journalist, video suppose I have as a journalist, video photo producer, I have two audiences of photo producer, I have two audiences of photo producer, I have two audiences of mine. One is low ticket. So that's mine. One is low ticket. So that's mine. One is low ticket. So that's supporting other filmmakers and supporting other filmmakers and supporting other filmmakers and photographers. That's my low ticket photographers. That's my low ticket photographers. That's my low ticket offer. My high ticket offer is producing offer. My high ticket offer is producing offer. My high ticket offer is producing stories for media outlets, mostly the stories for media outlets, mostly the stories for media outlets, mostly the US, and that's relative high ticket. So US, and that's relative high ticket. So US, and that's relative high ticket. So it's like what they pay up to five grand it's like what they pay up to five grand it's like what they pay up to five grand or something like that per story. With or something like that per story. With or something like that per story. With pitching to media outlets, it's just pitching to media outlets, it's just pitching to media outlets, it's just trying to find an angle on a story that trying to find an angle on a story that trying to find an angle on a story that I know that they're interested in at the I know that they're interested in at the I know that they're interested in at the moment, but give another take on it moment, but give another take on it moment, but give another take on it that's different to what everybody else that's different to what everybody else that's different to what everybody else is doing. So, with mainstream media, is doing. So, with mainstream media, is doing. So, with mainstream media, it's obviously timesensitive. So, it's obviously timesensitive. So, it's obviously timesensitive. So, they're interested in today's politics they're interested in today's politics they're interested in today's politics or environmental stuff or ongoing or environmental stuff or ongoing or environmental stuff or ongoing conflict. So, it's it's unfolding conflict. So, it's it's unfolding conflict. So, it's it's unfolding narratives. Most of the unfolding

narratives. Most of the unfolding narratives. Most of the unfolding narratives being covered in a very narratives being covered in a very narratives being covered in a very uniform way. So if you throw a pitch out uniform way. So if you throw a pitch out uniform way. So if you throw a pitch out that's as uniform as everybody else is, that's as uniform as everybody else is, that's as uniform as everybody else is, it won't get looked at. So you have to it won't get looked at. So you have to it won't get looked at. So you have to find a different angle. That's really find a different angle. That's really find a different angle. That's really it. It's just setting yourself apart it. It's just setting yourself apart it. It's just setting yourself apart from all of the other people who are from all of the other people who are from all of the other people who are sending pitches in as well. Let's go sending pitches in as well. Let's go sending pitches in as well. Let's go back. Right. So I've reached out to you. back. Right. So I've reached out to you. back. Right. So I've reached out to you. I said your content was really I said your content was really I said your content was really interesting. Spike, tell me how to start interesting. Spike, tell me how to start interesting. Spike, tell me how to start pitching. So I get the let's say we pitching. So I get the let's say we pitching. So I get the let's say we talked to each other. I get the message talked to each other. I get the message talked to each other. I get the message piece down. How do I know who to piece down. How do I know who to piece down. How do I know who to contact? Right? Cuz like media outlets contact? Right? Cuz like media outlets contact? Right? Cuz like media outlets are very big organizations. How do you are very big organizations. How do you are very big organizations. How do you narrow that down? That's the tough bit, narrow that down? That's the tough bit, narrow that down? That's the tough bit, isn't it? Well, for me, I'd want to try isn't it? Well, for me, I'd want to try isn't it? Well, for me, I'd want to try to find anybody with the title photo to find anybody with the title photo to find anybody with the title photo editor, creative director, producer, editor, creative director, producer, editor, creative director, producer, visual people. For me, I'd find outlets visual people. For me, I'd find outlets visual people. For me, I'd find outlets that I would like to see my work in. For that I would like to see my work in. For that I would like to see my work in. For example, I don't want to see my work in example, I don't want to see my work in example, I don't want to see my work in the sun. That's that's no use to me. So, the sun. That's that's no use to me. So, the sun. That's that's no use to me. So, so it's a little bit like Dream 100 as so it's a little bit like Dream 100 as so it's a little bit like Dream 100 as well. You know, I would like as a well. You know, I would like as a well. You know, I would like as a bullseye National Geographic. And then bullseye National Geographic. And then bullseye National Geographic. And then I'll either, and this is the long way to I'll either, and this is the long way to I'll either, and this is the long way to do it. I'll either start googling them, do it. I'll either start googling them, do it. I'll either start googling them, start looking on LinkedIn, start trying start looking on LinkedIn, start trying start looking on LinkedIn, start trying to guess email addresses, or I'll use to guess email addresses, or I'll use to guess email addresses, or I'll use >> I hear I hear there's an application >> I hear I hear there's an application >> I hear I hear there's an application that can help with that. Yeah, that can help with that. Yeah, that can help with that. Yeah, >> there might be one out there. Yeah.

>> there might be one out there. Yeah. >> there might be one out there. Yeah. Yeah. It makes it so much faster. So, Yeah. It makes it so much faster. So, Yeah. It makes it so much faster. So, take all those shortcuts. If you can take all those shortcuts. If you can take all those shortcuts. If you can find a way to make that easier for find a way to make that easier for find a way to make that easier for yourself, grab that because it I mean if yourself, grab that because it I mean if yourself, grab that because it I mean if I did it manually to be honest, I used I did it manually to be honest, I used I did it manually to be honest, I used to do it manually and it would take me to do it manually and it would take me to do it manually and it would take me days and days and days. And my days and days and days. And my days and days and days. And my percentage response rate when I pitch is percentage response rate when I pitch is percentage response rate when I pitch is I'll I'll pitch say I pitch to 100 I'll I'll pitch say I pitch to 100 I'll I'll pitch say I pitch to 100 people and I normally pitch to like 200 people and I normally pitch to like 200 people and I normally pitch to like 200 at a time probably get like 10% response at a time probably get like 10% response at a time probably get like 10% response and only one will buy. Two will buy out and only one will buy. Two will buy out and only one will buy. Two will buy out of a 100red. So it is volume. When you of a 100red. So it is volume. When you of a 100red. So it is volume. When you said that, do you artificially limit said that, do you artificially limit said that, do you artificially limit your outreach to 100 or 200 because your outreach to 100 or 200 because your outreach to 100 or 200 because that's been the most effective or like that's been the most effective or like that's been the most effective or like how did you decide that 100 or 200 how did you decide that 100 or 200 how did you decide that 100 or 200 people was the right set of people to people was the right set of people to people was the right set of people to try to reach out to at a time? That's try to reach out to at a time? That's try to reach out to at a time? That's normally the amount of people that I can normally the amount of people that I can normally the amount of people that I can find that my work will be relevant for. find that my work will be relevant for. find that my work will be relevant for. So within there as well, for example, So within there as well, for example, So within there as well, for example, when I found a photo editor at National when I found a photo editor at National when I found a photo editor at National Geographic, normally the only Geographic, normally the only Geographic, normally the only information that I can get on them is information that I can get on them is information that I can get on them is that they're a photo editor at National that they're a photo editor at National that they're a photo editor at National Geographic. but um hundreds of photo Geographic. but um hundreds of photo Geographic. but um hundreds of photo editors at a National Geographic all editors at a National Geographic all editors at a National Geographic all editing slightly different stories. So editing slightly different stories. So editing slightly different stories. So one will be fashion, one will be food, one will be fashion, one will be food, one will be fashion, one will be food, one will be environmental. So I will go one will be environmental. So I will go one will be environmental. So I will go on LinkedIn or I will go onto National on LinkedIn or I will go onto National on LinkedIn or I will go onto National Geographic itself and I'll see the work Geographic itself and I'll see the work Geographic itself and I'll see the work that they've previously been publishing that they've previously been publishing that they've previously been publishing to make sure that the work that I'm to make sure that the work that I'm to make sure that the work that I'm about to send them will align otherwise about to send them will align otherwise about to send them will align otherwise it's useless to them.

it's useless to them. it's useless to them. >> It's very applicable broadly because >> It's very applicable broadly because >> It's very applicable broadly because like ultimately that's the job all of us like ultimately that's the job all of us like ultimately that's the job all of us are doing. The thing that's interesting are doing. The thing that's interesting are doing. The thing that's interesting there sort of buried in your statement there sort of buried in your statement there sort of buried in your statement is the fact that understand how to is the fact that understand how to is the fact that understand how to target your audience to a specific target your audience to a specific target your audience to a specific enough size where you're like that's as enough size where you're like that's as enough size where you're like that's as many people as I can find that fit this many people as I can find that fit this many people as I can find that fit this profile at a time. What that means is profile at a time. What that means is profile at a time. What that means is you're not doing a spray and prey method you're not doing a spray and prey method you're not doing a spray and prey method where you're like I'm going to get a where you're like I'm going to get a where you're like I'm going to get a list of 200,000 people and hope that a list of 200,000 people and hope that a list of 200,000 people and hope that a hundred are interested. You're saying hundred are interested. You're saying hundred are interested. You're saying I'm going to find the hundred that I I'm going to find the hundred that I I'm going to find the hundred that I want to talk to and start from that. want to talk to and start from that. want to talk to and start from that. Yeah, I am doing mass outreach, but I'm Yeah, I am doing mass outreach, but I'm Yeah, I am doing mass outreach, but I'm um a little bit superstitious about it um a little bit superstitious about it um a little bit superstitious about it cuz the people that you're reaching out cuz the people that you're reaching out cuz the people that you're reaching out to don't like to be on an email list. to don't like to be on an email list. to don't like to be on an email list. So, I do like to try to personalize a So, I do like to try to personalize a So, I do like to try to personalize a little bit and I feel like if I have a little bit and I feel like if I have a little bit and I feel like if I have a list that's too long, maybe they can list that's too long, maybe they can list that's too long, maybe they can smell it out. So, I'm a bit careful. I smell it out. So, I'm a bit careful. I smell it out. So, I'm a bit careful. I think that's the process everybody think that's the process everybody think that's the process everybody should be following. We do like every should be following. We do like every should be following. We do like every year, although we're increasing the year, although we're increasing the year, although we're increasing the cyclicality of this, a a more intensive cyclicality of this, a a more intensive cyclicality of this, a a more intensive research deep dive where we look at the research deep dive where we look at the research deep dive where we look at the data of our customers performance and we data of our customers performance and we data of our customers performance and we actually get down to like words being actually get down to like words being actually get down to like words being used, word count, timing, frequency, used, word count, timing, frequency, used, word count, timing, frequency, like we look at sort of all the like we look at sort of all the like we look at sort of all the variables that we can help users variables that we can help users variables that we can help users control. And then we also reach out to control. And then we also reach out to control. And then we also reach out to recipients separately, decision makers, recipients separately, decision makers, recipients separately, decision makers, and and ask like what do you think about and and ask like what do you think about and and ask like what do you think about cold outreach? How did how does this cold outreach? How did how does this cold outreach? How did how does this impact you, etc. And bring those two impact you, etc. And bring those two impact you, etc. And bring those two together in the research. And I think together in the research. And I think together in the research. And I think one of the things we found was the sort one of the things we found was the sort one of the things we found was the sort of knee in the curve of effectiveness of knee in the curve of effectiveness of knee in the curve of effectiveness was like right around 100. So you could was like right around 100. So you could was like right around 100. So you could tell I I wish I had the report here tell I I wish I had the report here tell I I wish I had the report here right handy cuz I' I'd recall the the right handy cuz I' I'd recall the the right handy cuz I' I'd recall the the data point. Yeah. Like right around 100 data point. Yeah. Like right around 100 data point. Yeah. Like right around 100 is a break point in effectiveness in

is a break point in effectiveness in is a break point in effectiveness in campaigns. And that's why I found it so campaigns. And that's why I found it so campaigns. And that's why I found it so interesting that you'd kind of picked up interesting that you'd kind of picked up interesting that you'd kind of picked up on that number. on that number. on that number. >> That's mad. Well, maybe it's not me >> That's mad. Well, maybe it's not me >> That's mad. Well, maybe it's not me doing it then. Maybe maybe this is just doing it then. Maybe maybe this is just doing it then. Maybe maybe this is just the way the stars align. You didn't get the way the stars align. You didn't get the way the stars align. You didn't get to this on a guess your first time out, to this on a guess your first time out, to this on a guess your first time out, right? At some point, you went from zero right? At some point, you went from zero right? At some point, you went from zero to something to some number greater than to something to some number greater than to something to some number greater than zero with your business. And in that zero with your business. And in that zero with your business. And in that experience of going from zero to your experience of going from zero to your experience of going from zero to your first 100 clients or what have you, you first 100 clients or what have you, you first 100 clients or what have you, you learned some things and I'm guessing learned some things and I'm guessing learned some things and I'm guessing this is probably one of the byproducts this is probably one of the byproducts this is probably one of the byproducts of that experience. of that experience. of that experience. >> Yeah. How does it work for you guys with >> Yeah. How does it work for you guys with >> Yeah. How does it work for you guys with your company? Are you doing cold your company? Are you doing cold your company? Are you doing cold outreach campaigns? outreach campaigns? outreach campaigns? >> We do that. Yeah. Not not mostly, but >> We do that. Yeah. Not not mostly, but >> We do that. Yeah. Not not mostly, but that's one of the things that we have that's one of the things that we have that's one of the things that we have now in our go to market motion is is now in our go to market motion is is now in our go to market motion is is doing cold outreach. It would be a tad doing cold outreach. It would be a tad doing cold outreach. It would be a tad insane for us to not do it given what we insane for us to not do it given what we insane for us to not do it given what we do. If you're doing B2B work, how many do. If you're doing B2B work, how many do. If you're doing B2B work, how many other distribution options do you have? other distribution options do you have? other distribution options do you have? You know, it used to be that Twitter was You know, it used to be that Twitter was You know, it used to be that Twitter was kind of good for B2B and then it got kind of good for B2B and then it got kind of good for B2B and then it got overwhelmed with noise and then it was overwhelmed with noise and then it was overwhelmed with noise and then it was LinkedIn kind of filled the gap. Only LinkedIn kind of filled the gap. Only LinkedIn kind of filled the gap. Only now the thing that I hear most now the thing that I hear most now the thing that I hear most consistently about LinkedIn is hard to consistently about LinkedIn is hard to consistently about LinkedIn is hard to stand out because of all the noise. And stand out because of all the noise. And stand out because of all the noise. And if you're doing B2B, it's like, okay, if you're doing B2B, it's like, okay, if you're doing B2B, it's like, okay, other than email and cold calls and other than email and cold calls and other than email and cold calls and advertising, how many choices are there?

advertising, how many choices are there? advertising, how many choices are there? And cold calls don't work either. If And cold calls don't work either. If And cold calls don't work either. If you're not doing cold email, it's kind you're not doing cold email, it's kind you're not doing cold email, it's kind of a question of like, well, what are of a question of like, well, what are of a question of like, well, what are you doing? And how effective is that you doing? And how effective is that you doing? And how effective is that actually? Because I'm I'm impressed more actually? Because I'm I'm impressed more actually? Because I'm I'm impressed more than anything. What other tools would than anything. What other tools would than anything. What other tools would you have used? So I because I know you you have used? So I because I know you you have used? So I because I know you you have a tool that is kind of semivtob you have a tool that is kind of semivtob you have a tool that is kind of semivtob that you market like talk about how you that you market like talk about how you that you market like talk about how you distribute that platform and get it in distribute that platform and get it in distribute that platform and get it in front of people. front of people. front of people. >> I think you're speaking about my lower >> I think you're speaking about my lower >> I think you're speaking about my lower ticket one where I'm supporting ticket one where I'm supporting ticket one where I'm supporting filmmakers and the short way to describe filmmakers and the short way to describe filmmakers and the short way to describe it is it's a database of grants and it is it's a database of grants and it is it's a database of grants and opportunities with a pay wall that again opportunities with a pay wall that again opportunities with a pay wall that again emails the driver. So you would have emails the driver. So you would have emails the driver. So you would have seen one of my lead magnets which drops seen one of my lead magnets which drops seen one of my lead magnets which drops you onto a email list which then I can you onto a email list which then I can you onto a email list which then I can email people and offer it to them that I email people and offer it to them that I email people and offer it to them that I don't stop at 100. That's many more don't stop at 100. That's many more don't stop at 100. That's many more people but it's a different beast. I people but it's a different beast. I people but it's a different beast. I think it doesn't have to be personalized think it doesn't have to be personalized think it doesn't have to be personalized to the same degree. The offering is to the same degree. The offering is to the same degree. The offering is uniform always rather than me trying to uniform always rather than me trying to uniform always rather than me trying to find an angle on a story for a find an angle on a story for a find an angle on a story for a newspaper. Yeah, it's a bit different. newspaper. Yeah, it's a bit different. newspaper. Yeah, it's a bit different. >> More of a traditional traditional >> More of a traditional traditional >> More of a traditional traditional marketing play instead of something more marketing play instead of something more marketing play instead of something more direct and targeted. Yeah, that makes direct and targeted. Yeah, that makes direct and targeted. Yeah, that makes sense. Yeah, it is fascinating though to sense. Yeah, it is fascinating though to sense. Yeah, it is fascinating though to watch numbers on this stuff behind the watch numbers on this stuff behind the watch numbers on this stuff behind the scenes, isn't it? Because it's like a scenes, isn't it? Because it's like a scenes, isn't it? Because it's like a I'm sure you know this better than me I'm sure you know this better than me I'm sure you know this better than me because you deal with much larger because you deal with much larger because you deal with much larger numbers, but you can almost see like numbers, but you can almost see like numbers, but you can almost see like human psychology at work. It's human psychology at work. It's human psychology at work. It's fascinating based on like the time you fascinating based on like the time you fascinating based on like the time you send and and how you word things and send and and how you word things and send and and how you word things and what you offer. Well, for us it always what you offer. Well, for us it always what you offer. Well, for us it always translates to the better you understand translates to the better you understand translates to the better you understand your audience, the better you can dial your audience, the better you can dial your audience, the better you can dial those things in. Which in our those things in. Which in our those things in. Which in our perspective, our interpretation of the perspective, our interpretation of the perspective, our interpretation of the research is that the reason smaller research is that the reason smaller research is that the reason smaller lists perform better is because of that

lists perform better is because of that lists perform better is because of that right there. You can dial in the right there. You can dial in the right there. You can dial in the personalization about as far as you need personalization about as far as you need personalization about as far as you need to in order to really make it tight to in order to really make it tight to in order to really make it tight because either you're doing bespoke because either you're doing bespoke because either you're doing bespoke emails oneoff and you're really deep emails oneoff and you're really deep emails oneoff and you're really deep diving. And if you have a higher value, diving. And if you have a higher value, diving. And if you have a higher value, if you're dealing in like enterprise if you're dealing in like enterprise if you're dealing in like enterprise software or consulting, that probably software or consulting, that probably software or consulting, that probably makes sense. You do want it to be hyper makes sense. You do want it to be hyper makes sense. You do want it to be hyper hyperpersonalized, but almost the rest hyperpersonalized, but almost the rest hyperpersonalized, but almost the rest of us, right? Like everybody else, we of us, right? Like everybody else, we of us, right? Like everybody else, we need to find a way to reach at least a need to find a way to reach at least a need to find a way to reach at least a few people at a time. And that yeah, few people at a time. And that yeah, few people at a time. And that yeah, that number seems to be a sweet spot. that number seems to be a sweet spot. that number seems to be a sweet spot. You didn't get to 100 overnight. Let's You didn't get to 100 overnight. Let's You didn't get to 100 overnight. Let's talk about your first few clients. How talk about your first few clients. How talk about your first few clients. How did that experience go? How did how did did that experience go? How did how did did that experience go? How did how did you go from maybe I should get paid to you go from maybe I should get paid to you go from maybe I should get paid to do this or maybe maybe I should actually do this or maybe maybe I should actually do this or maybe maybe I should actually go and find some additional companies or go and find some additional companies or go and find some additional companies or customers to work for. How did you go customers to work for. How did you go customers to work for. How did you go from from 0ero to one or 0 to 10? You from from 0ero to one or 0 to 10? You from from 0ero to one or 0 to 10? You find something that works and you do find something that works and you do find something that works and you do more of it, isn't it? So the first the more of it, isn't it? So the first the more of it, isn't it? So the first the first story I made was 2012 I guess so a first story I made was 2012 I guess so a first story I made was 2012 I guess so a little while ago and my friend gave me little while ago and my friend gave me little while ago and my friend gave me 10 contacts on a little Excel 10 contacts on a little Excel 10 contacts on a little Excel spreadsheet cuz he'd been working for a spreadsheet cuz he'd been working for a spreadsheet cuz he'd been working for a while before and they were good contacts while before and they were good contacts while before and they were good contacts as well. They were New Yorker and he was as well. They were New Yorker and he was as well. They were New Yorker and he was really generous and I sold to one of really generous and I sold to one of really generous and I sold to one of those people and I think it blew my mind those people and I think it blew my mind those people and I think it blew my mind cuz I I realized that I could maybe make cuz I I realized that I could maybe make cuz I I realized that I could maybe make money as a photographer. Then I just did money as a photographer. Then I just did money as a photographer. Then I just did more and more and more of the same thing more and more and more of the same thing more and more and more of the same thing until I tapped out. The thing that until I tapped out. The thing that until I tapped out. The thing that tapped me out was time and energy.

tapped me out was time and energy. tapped me out was time and energy. though because you can't scale one though because you can't scale one though because you can't scale one person. Yeah. person. Yeah. person. Yeah. >> No, not well. Do you remember the pitch? >> No, not well. Do you remember the pitch? >> No, not well. Do you remember the pitch? Do you remember the the that first pitch Do you remember the the that first pitch Do you remember the the that first pitch that got that first job? that got that first job? that got that first job? >> Yeah, it was horrible. It was so long. >> Yeah, it was horrible. It was so long. >> Yeah, it was horrible. It was so long. So long. I don't think it was the pitch So long. I don't think it was the pitch So long. I don't think it was the pitch that did it. I was really lucky. I won a that did it. I was really lucky. I won a that did it. I was really lucky. I won a competition. It they partially wanted to competition. It they partially wanted to competition. It they partially wanted to cover the results of the competition, cover the results of the competition, cover the results of the competition, but it just so happened that my story but it just so happened that my story but it just so happened that my story hadn't been published either, so they hadn't been published either, so they hadn't been published either, so they took that along as a extra. took that along as a extra. took that along as a extra. >> That's fascinating. How long after that >> That's fascinating. How long after that >> That's fascinating. How long after that gig did you generate enough business gig did you generate enough business gig did you generate enough business where you were like, "This is my where you were like, "This is my where you were like, "This is my full-time thing now." full-time thing now." full-time thing now." >> Oh, immediately I jumped straight in. >> Oh, immediately I jumped straight in. >> Oh, immediately I jumped straight in. >> Wow, that's a huge risk. That's That's >> Wow, that's a huge risk. That's That's >> Wow, that's a huge risk. That's That's awesome. awesome. awesome. >> Yeah. Well, it was the the timing was >> Yeah. Well, it was the the timing was >> Yeah. Well, it was the the timing was quite lucky. I just finished a master's quite lucky. I just finished a master's quite lucky. I just finished a master's degree in Dallas and um I got dumped by degree in Dallas and um I got dumped by degree in Dallas and um I got dumped by my girlfriend also in Dallas. So, I my girlfriend also in Dallas. So, I my girlfriend also in Dallas. So, I thought to myself, all right, well, what thought to myself, all right, well, what thought to myself, all right, well, what am I going to do? I've got, you know, am I going to do? I've got, you know, am I going to do? I've got, you know, now it's all or nothing. So, I went to now it's all or nothing. So, I went to now it's all or nothing. So, I went to Asia. I went to Southeast Asia and I Asia. I went to Southeast Asia and I Asia. I went to Southeast Asia and I started and I dived into a nasty little started and I dived into a nasty little started and I dived into a nasty little conflict over there and I was the only conflict over there and I was the only conflict over there and I was the only non-local journalist. Everybody wanted non-local journalist. Everybody wanted non-local journalist. Everybody wanted the work. Well, I won't say it took off the work. Well, I won't say it took off the work. Well, I won't say it took off cuz it never really takes off, but but cuz it never really takes off, but but cuz it never really takes off, but but then I was making a living. Yeah, then I was making a living. Yeah, then I was making a living. Yeah, >> that's amazing. Most entrepreneurial >> that's amazing. Most entrepreneurial >> that's amazing. Most entrepreneurial stories don't start that stories don't start that stories don't start that lucky. Not lucky cuz like that's that lucky. Not lucky cuz like that's that lucky. Not lucky cuz like that's that that undersells what you've done. That's that undersells what you've done. That's that undersells what you've done. That's not the right word, but like that's a not the right word, but like that's a not the right word, but like that's a very auspicious beginning.

very auspicious beginning. very auspicious beginning. >> Yeah. No, was it? Of course, it was a >> Yeah. No, was it? Of course, it was a >> Yeah. No, was it? Of course, it was a bit it's always it's always what half bit it's always it's always what half bit it's always it's always what half luck and half judgment I would say, luck and half judgment I would say, luck and half judgment I would say, isn't it? But how did you get started isn't it? But how did you get started isn't it? But how did you get started then? How cuz you've grown a company then? How cuz you've grown a company then? How cuz you've grown a company from zero. Let me give you the more from zero. Let me give you the more from zero. Let me give you the more scientific perspective on this. So, I scientific perspective on this. So, I scientific perspective on this. So, I think in order to do this, what we do in think in order to do this, what we do in think in order to do this, what we do in terms of like starting a software terms of like starting a software terms of like starting a software company, there's lots of components that company, there's lots of components that company, there's lots of components that that you need to do, but I think one of that you need to do, but I think one of that you need to do, but I think one of them is a certain tolerance for risk. them is a certain tolerance for risk. them is a certain tolerance for risk. And I don't know, a sort of naive or And I don't know, a sort of naive or And I don't know, a sort of naive or like an optimistic. It's optimism to the like an optimistic. It's optimism to the like an optimistic. It's optimism to the point of almost naivity. But like in point of almost naivity. But like in point of almost naivity. But like in order to start something from scratch, order to start something from scratch, order to start something from scratch, no, it's the same concept, right? You no, it's the same concept, right? You no, it's the same concept, right? You have to have a vision for the world that have to have a vision for the world that have to have a vision for the world that includes a thing that either isn't there includes a thing that either isn't there includes a thing that either isn't there today or is dramatically different than today or is dramatically different than today or is dramatically different than what's there today. And the insane what's there today. And the insane what's there today. And the insane belief that you can actually make that belief that you can actually make that belief that you can actually make that happen. And so happen. And so happen. And so I think starting anything requires a I think starting anything requires a I think starting anything requires a certain amount of that. But usually in certain amount of that. But usually in certain amount of that. But usually in something like a startup, like a tech something like a startup, like a tech something like a startup, like a tech startup, so many moving parts, right? startup, so many moving parts, right? startup, so many moving parts, right? because it's actually, you know, so a because it's actually, you know, so a because it's actually, you know, so a friend of mine has been working in the friend of mine has been working in the friend of mine has been working in the film industry at Hollywood for a little film industry at Hollywood for a little film industry at Hollywood for a little bit and we were talking about this about bit and we were talking about this about bit and we were talking about this about the parallels because when you're the parallels because when you're the parallels because when you're building a software company, you have to building a software company, you have to building a software company, you have to have a clear enough vision that you can have a clear enough vision that you can have a clear enough vision that you can communicate to people that they get communicate to people that they get communicate to people that they get excited about it, that they want to be a excited about it, that they want to be a excited about it, that they want to be a part of it, and that they're willing to part of it, and that they're willing to part of it, and that they're willing to take some risk in being a part of it.

take some risk in being a part of it. take some risk in being a part of it. Right? It's not as simple as, hey, Right? It's not as simple as, hey, Right? It's not as simple as, hey, here's, you know, hey, you work for here's, you know, hey, you work for here's, you know, hey, you work for Facebook, don't you want to just make no Facebook, don't you want to just make no Facebook, don't you want to just make no money and take all the risk and have no money and take all the risk and have no money and take all the risk and have no prospects until you create them? Nobody prospects until you create them? Nobody prospects until you create them? Nobody goes, "Yeah, sign me up for that." goes, "Yeah, sign me up for that." goes, "Yeah, sign me up for that." Except idiots like me. So, I think Except idiots like me. So, I think Except idiots like me. So, I think there's a certain risk tolerance that's there's a certain risk tolerance that's there's a certain risk tolerance that's necessary, but I found that I probably necessary, but I found that I probably necessary, but I found that I probably have a somewhat unique risk tolerance have a somewhat unique risk tolerance have a somewhat unique risk tolerance and that it makes me very good at the and that it makes me very good at the and that it makes me very good at the early stage because I'm able to tolerate early stage because I'm able to tolerate early stage because I'm able to tolerate things that are ambiguous. I I'm my things that are ambiguous. I I'm my things that are ambiguous. I I'm my ability to deal with ambiguity, I think, ability to deal with ambiguity, I think, ability to deal with ambiguity, I think, is just greater than some people's and is just greater than some people's and is just greater than some people's and that makes me well suited to that stage that makes me well suited to that stage that makes me well suited to that stage of a venture where everything's of a venture where everything's of a venture where everything's ambiguous. Most people feel like they ambiguous. Most people feel like they ambiguous. Most people feel like they need a certain amount of data to make need a certain amount of data to make need a certain amount of data to make business decisions. And part of the business decisions. And part of the business decisions. And part of the reason businesses slow down once they reason businesses slow down once they reason businesses slow down once they get going is you start to depend on that get going is you start to depend on that get going is you start to depend on that data to make decisions or you build a data to make decisions or you build a data to make decisions or you build a business with a bunch of people in it. business with a bunch of people in it. business with a bunch of people in it. And that's the only real way you can And that's the only real way you can And that's the only real way you can tell what a good idea is from a bad idea tell what a good idea is from a bad idea tell what a good idea is from a bad idea sometimes. But in the early days, you sometimes. But in the early days, you sometimes. But in the early days, you don't have that benefit. You don't have don't have that benefit. You don't have don't have that benefit. You don't have the data. In fact, if often what you're the data. In fact, if often what you're the data. In fact, if often what you're doing is you're staring at something doing is you're staring at something doing is you're staring at something that doesn't make sense on paper and that doesn't make sense on paper and that doesn't make sense on paper and you're saying, "I'm going to go will you're saying, "I'm going to go will you're saying, "I'm going to go will this into life. I'm going to will this this into life. I'm going to will this this into life. I'm going to will this into existence." And like a film, it's into existence." And like a film, it's into existence." And like a film, it's very much like that. It depends on very much like that. It depends on very much like that. It depends on bringing a lot of creative people bringing a lot of creative people bringing a lot of creative people together because they have to execute together because they have to execute together because they have to execute the thing you have in your head to make the thing you have in your head to make the thing you have in your head to make it real. It doesn't it's not just real it real. It doesn't it's not just real it real. It doesn't it's not just real for everybody. You have to make they for everybody. You have to make they for everybody. You have to make they have to help you make it real. The have to help you make it real. The have to help you make it real. The difference with software is you can difference with software is you can difference with software is you can iterate. You can make a mistake and then iterate. You can make a mistake and then iterate. You can make a mistake and then correct. Whereas with certain endeavors correct. Whereas with certain endeavors correct. Whereas with certain endeavors like film or TV, you can't like you've

like film or TV, you can't like you've like film or TV, you can't like you've got to get it right in that pilot or you got to get it right in that pilot or you got to get it right in that pilot or you probably don't get picked up or if it probably don't get picked up or if it probably don't get picked up or if it hits the box office and it fails, you hits the box office and it fails, you hits the box office and it fails, you know, that's probably it. Although I know, that's probably it. Although I know, that's probably it. Although I think Marvel has changed that with their think Marvel has changed that with their think Marvel has changed that with their obsession with re-shoots that they are obsession with re-shoots that they are obsession with re-shoots that they are Marvel might be a more iterative or Marvel might be a more iterative or Marvel might be a more iterative or Disney might be more iterative than film Disney might be more iterative than film Disney might be more iterative than film has ever been, but I think other than has ever been, but I think other than has ever been, but I think other than that it's usually a sort of one shot. I that it's usually a sort of one shot. I that it's usually a sort of one shot. I really liked bringing people together to really liked bringing people together to really liked bringing people together to be creative and to make a thing exist be creative and to make a thing exist be creative and to make a thing exist that didn't exist. And I I just really that didn't exist. And I I just really that didn't exist. And I I just really enjoy that. And so I got hooked on it enjoy that. And so I got hooked on it enjoy that. And so I got hooked on it early. It was also more predictable, early. It was also more predictable, early. It was also more predictable, right? Like the nice thing about right? Like the nice thing about right? Like the nice thing about software is if you spend a year rushing software is if you spend a year rushing software is if you spend a year rushing it and you do an amazing job, those it and you do an amazing job, those it and you do an amazing job, those people more often than not are still people more often than not are still people more often than not are still paying you the following year. So you paying you the following year. So you paying you the following year. So you can build on that. Whereas not every can build on that. Whereas not every can build on that. Whereas not every industry gives you that opportunity. It industry gives you that opportunity. It industry gives you that opportunity. It took me a long time, I think, to kind of took me a long time, I think, to kind of took me a long time, I think, to kind of figure that out. But then once I did, it figure that out. But then once I did, it figure that out. But then once I did, it was just a no-brainer. I'll just keep was just a no-brainer. I'll just keep was just a no-brainer. I'll just keep doing this probably for forever because doing this probably for forever because doing this probably for forever because I just enjoy the the activity of I just enjoy the the activity of I just enjoy the the activity of building the business this way. It's building the business this way. It's building the business this way. It's really fun for me. really fun for me. really fun for me. >> Yeah, it's lovely, isn't it? That >> Yeah, it's lovely, isn't it? That >> Yeah, it's lovely, isn't it? That compounding subscription model is a compounding subscription model is a compounding subscription model is a incredible thing. Yeah. I mean, it works incredible thing. Yeah. I mean, it works incredible thing. Yeah. I mean, it works for everybody. It works for for for the for everybody. It works for for for the for everybody. It works for for for the business and it also works for the the business and it also works for the the business and it also works for the the customers because it's a lower price customers because it's a lower price customers because it's a lower price >> and ideally you're signing up for >> and ideally you're signing up for >> and ideally you're signing up for something where the company who builds something where the company who builds something where the company who builds it is also saying this is a subscription it is also saying this is a subscription it is also saying this is a subscription thing. we're going to just keep making thing. we're going to just keep making thing. we're going to just keep making this better for the foreseeable future.

this better for the foreseeable future. this better for the foreseeable future. And that I like that model. I I like the And that I like that model. I I like the And that I like that model. I I like the model of we're all signing up to make model of we're all signing up to make model of we're all signing up to make this work together and uh you can just this work together and uh you can just this work together and uh you can just stop paying if it's not working for you. stop paying if it's not working for you. stop paying if it's not working for you. And that kind of keeps your feet to the And that kind of keeps your feet to the And that kind of keeps your feet to the fires. Personally, that's why I really fires. Personally, that's why I really fires. Personally, that's why I really like this and I like doing doing what I like this and I like doing doing what I like this and I like doing doing what I do is just scaling creative ideas, I do is just scaling creative ideas, I do is just scaling creative ideas, I guess. guess. guess. >> Today's episode is brought to you by >> Today's episode is brought to you by >> Today's episode is brought to you by hunter.io. hunter.io. hunter.io. Finding the right email address for your Finding the right email address for your Finding the right email address for your leads can take hours, but with Hunter, leads can take hours, but with Hunter, leads can take hours, but with Hunter, you can go from search to send in you can go from search to send in you can go from search to send in minutes. Get started for free with minutes. Get started for free with minutes. Get started for free with Hunter's verified data, lead management, Hunter's verified data, lead management, Hunter's verified data, lead management, and email marketing tools by visiting and email marketing tools by visiting and email marketing tools by visiting www.hunter.io. Have you had um scary moments on the Have you had um scary moments on the journeys? Because as the builder of journeys? Because as the builder of journeys? Because as the builder of startups or software companies, startups or software companies, startups or software companies, you're the guy with no safety net. you're the guy with no safety net. you're the guy with no safety net. >> 100%. >> 100%. >> 100%. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. I know. Absolutely. >> Yeah. I know. Absolutely. >> Yeah. I know. Absolutely. >> It's like I said, it's sort of all a >> It's like I said, it's sort of all a >> It's like I said, it's sort of all a string of terrifying moments and you string of terrifying moments and you string of terrifying moments and you either have the disposition where you either have the disposition where you either have the disposition where you look at that and go, "Yeah, but I can look at that and go, "Yeah, but I can look at that and go, "Yeah, but I can figure that out." Like, you know, you're figure that out." Like, you know, you're figure that out." Like, you know, you're either one of those people or it's not either one of those people or it's not either one of those people or it's not right for you. If you can't deal with a right for you. If you can't deal with a right for you. If you can't deal with a string of setbacks and ambiguous string of setbacks and ambiguous string of setbacks and ambiguous opportunities, then not a good fit. You opportunities, then not a good fit. You opportunities, then not a good fit. You know, it just works for me. For you, know, it just works for me. For you, know, it just works for me. For you, you're saying, "Hey, I'm going to go out you're saying, "Hey, I'm going to go out you're saying, "Hey, I'm going to go out into the world and I'm going to use my into the world and I'm going to use my into the world and I'm going to use my creative vision for things. I'm going to creative vision for things. I'm going to creative vision for things. I'm going to find these opportunities to tell these find these opportunities to tell these find these opportunities to tell these stories and I'm just betting that stories and I'm just betting that stories and I'm just betting that somebody's going to pay me for that and

somebody's going to pay me for that and somebody's going to pay me for that and then and then you're going to do it then and then you're going to do it then and then you're going to do it again." Like, that's a that's such a again." Like, that's a that's such a again." Like, that's a that's such a huge bet on yourself, but be because huge bet on yourself, but be because huge bet on yourself, but be because you're you become an enterprise of one, you're you become an enterprise of one, you're you become an enterprise of one, right? Yeah. Stupid, isn't it? right? Yeah. Stupid, isn't it? right? Yeah. Stupid, isn't it? >> It's my kind of stupid. Yeah. But yeah, >> It's my kind of stupid. Yeah. But yeah, >> It's my kind of stupid. Yeah. But yeah, like it's exactly the kind of lunacy like it's exactly the kind of lunacy like it's exactly the kind of lunacy that that that I find appealing. Yeah. that that that I find appealing. Yeah. that that that I find appealing. Yeah. But like one of the things that comes up But like one of the things that comes up But like one of the things that comes up when you talk to any entrepreneur in any when you talk to any entrepreneur in any when you talk to any entrepreneur in any space that I think is is interesting is space that I think is is interesting is space that I think is is interesting is like like like >> do you Spike consider yourself a >> do you Spike consider yourself a >> do you Spike consider yourself a salesperson? salesperson? salesperson? >> Oh yeah. Probably if you asked me a year >> Oh yeah. Probably if you asked me a year >> Oh yeah. Probably if you asked me a year ago, I probably would have said no. I ago, I probably would have said no. I ago, I probably would have said no. I just didn't realize that I was. Back in just didn't realize that I was. Back in just didn't realize that I was. Back in 2013, I'd made world press winning 2013, I'd made world press winning 2013, I'd made world press winning story. if I hadn't have pitched it. If a story. if I hadn't have pitched it. If a story. if I hadn't have pitched it. If a tree falls in the woods, you know what I tree falls in the woods, you know what I tree falls in the woods, you know what I mean? You can have the best thing in the mean? You can have the best thing in the mean? You can have the best thing in the world, but if you don't tell people world, but if you don't tell people world, but if you don't tell people about it, then it's useless. It's an about it, then it's useless. It's an about it, then it's useless. It's an audience of one, and that's you and your audience of one, and that's you and your audience of one, and that's you and your mom, maybe your nan. So, yeah. Yeah, I'm mom, maybe your nan. So, yeah. Yeah, I'm mom, maybe your nan. So, yeah. Yeah, I'm a salesperson. Yeah, I always thought a a salesperson. Yeah, I always thought a a salesperson. Yeah, I always thought a salesperson was the guy on the phone salesperson was the guy on the phone salesperson was the guy on the phone cold calling or the guy knocking on the cold calling or the guy knocking on the cold calling or the guy knocking on the door, but yeah, not in the way that I door, but yeah, not in the way that I door, but yeah, not in the way that I thought. Not in the conventional way, thought. Not in the conventional way, thought. Not in the conventional way, but yeah, absolutely. And yourself? but yeah, absolutely. And yourself? but yeah, absolutely. And yourself? >> Oh, yeah. But but I've recognized this >> Oh, yeah. But but I've recognized this >> Oh, yeah. But but I've recognized this at an early at an early point. In fact, at an early at an early point. In fact, at an early at an early point. In fact, one of the things that I realized was one of the things that I realized was one of the things that I realized was that the one of the secrets to my early that the one of the secrets to my early that the one of the secrets to my early success was the fact that I did have success was the fact that I did have success was the fact that I did have sales conversations all the time. And sales conversations all the time. And sales conversations all the time. And what I realized was what I was learning what I realized was what I was learning what I realized was what I was learning in those conversations was incredibly in those conversations was incredibly in those conversations was incredibly valuable to making the rest of the valuable to making the rest of the valuable to making the rest of the business very successful. I learned business very successful. I learned business very successful. I learned early on that if you as a founder or a early on that if you as a founder or a early on that if you as a founder or a CEO or an entrepreneur are not acting as CEO or an entrepreneur are not acting as CEO or an entrepreneur are not acting as a salesperson, you're missing something.

a salesperson, you're missing something. a salesperson, you're missing something. There is a gap in the business that There is a gap in the business that There is a gap in the business that you're not seeing that's going to cost you're not seeing that's going to cost you're not seeing that's going to cost you at some point. But I remember early you at some point. But I remember early you at some point. But I remember early in my career, the idea of being a in my career, the idea of being a in my career, the idea of being a salesperson was like I was allergic to salesperson was like I was allergic to salesperson was like I was allergic to that idea. I did not want that to be that idea. I did not want that to be that idea. I did not want that to be true. But it's funny, at a certain true. But it's funny, at a certain true. But it's funny, at a certain point, you realize if you're any good at point, you realize if you're any good at point, you realize if you're any good at any of this, you're probably selling any of this, you're probably selling any of this, you're probably selling your time, right? your time, right? your time, right? >> Yeah. Do you mean that if you're not >> Yeah. Do you mean that if you're not >> Yeah. Do you mean that if you're not selling, there's a gap that you're selling, there's a gap that you're selling, there's a gap that you're missing because you're not seeing your missing because you're not seeing your missing because you're not seeing your pitches fail? pitches fail? pitches fail? >> Yeah. You learn a lot, at least in the >> Yeah. You learn a lot, at least in the >> Yeah. You learn a lot, at least in the software industry, losing a deal, like software industry, losing a deal, like software industry, losing a deal, like going through the negotiation process, going through the negotiation process, going through the negotiation process, selling and not winning. There's selling and not winning. There's selling and not winning. There's critical information there about parts critical information there about parts critical information there about parts of the market that your solution doesn't of the market that your solution doesn't of the market that your solution doesn't well fit. And if you're not selling, well fit. And if you're not selling, well fit. And if you're not selling, you're not getting that data. You're not you're not getting that data. You're not you're not getting that data. You're not learning about those gaps. And in some learning about those gaps. And in some learning about those gaps. And in some cases, you might look at it and go like, cases, you might look at it and go like, cases, you might look at it and go like, "Yeah, look, Hunter is building to make "Yeah, look, Hunter is building to make "Yeah, look, Hunter is building to make all of this cold outreach business as all of this cold outreach business as all of this cold outreach business as accessible to everyone as humanly accessible to everyone as humanly accessible to everyone as humanly possible. I want one person founders to possible. I want one person founders to possible. I want one person founders to pick it up and feel like it's so simple pick it up and feel like it's so simple pick it up and feel like it's so simple that there's no reason not to do it." So that there's no reason not to do it." So that there's no reason not to do it." So for us, if we go into a big enterprise for us, if we go into a big enterprise for us, if we go into a big enterprise and are having a conversation with a and are having a conversation with a and are having a conversation with a really complex business, we are going to really complex business, we are going to really complex business, we are going to learn there's all kinds of things we learn there's all kinds of things we learn there's all kinds of things we don't do well or we don't do the way don't do well or we don't do the way don't do well or we don't do the way they would want it. And for us, the they would want it. And for us, the they would want it. And for us, the answer most of the time is and that's answer most of the time is and that's answer most of the time is and that's okay. Sometimes you're learning okay. Sometimes you're learning okay. Sometimes you're learning something about the market that something about the market that something about the market that reinforces the things that you're reinforces the things that you're reinforces the things that you're already deciding to do. But other times, already deciding to do. But other times, already deciding to do. But other times, that's where your growth opportunities

that's where your growth opportunities that's where your growth opportunities are. And so at some point you've are. And so at some point you've are. And so at some point you've saturated something or it's time to saturated something or it's time to saturated something or it's time to pivot and you need to start looking at pivot and you need to start looking at pivot and you need to start looking at where the other opportunities are. And where the other opportunities are. And where the other opportunities are. And if you don't have that conduit of if you don't have that conduit of if you don't have that conduit of conversations, you're going to not know. conversations, you're going to not know. conversations, you're going to not know. It's it's it's the most ambiguous you It's it's it's the most ambiguous you It's it's it's the most ambiguous you can get because it's an unknown unknown. can get because it's an unknown unknown. can get because it's an unknown unknown. At least if you're having the At least if you're having the At least if you're having the conversations, it's a known unknown and conversations, it's a known unknown and conversations, it's a known unknown and then you can figure it out. But I think then you can figure it out. But I think then you can figure it out. But I think a lot of people are so afraid to get a lot of people are so afraid to get a lot of people are so afraid to get lumped into the sales function that they lumped into the sales function that they lumped into the sales function that they avoid it or they're afraid of it or they avoid it or they're afraid of it or they avoid it or they're afraid of it or they think they're not good at it. And I'm think they're not good at it. And I'm think they're not good at it. And I'm saying even in spite of all that, you saying even in spite of all that, you saying even in spite of all that, you should probably be doing it. should probably be doing it. should probably be doing it. >> Yeah. No, totally. And as you were >> Yeah. No, totally. And as you were >> Yeah. No, totally. And as you were talking, I was thinking a lot about fear talking, I was thinking a lot about fear talking, I was thinking a lot about fear and you mentioned that word as well. and you mentioned that word as well. and you mentioned that word as well. It's a big deal, isn't it? I think it's It's a big deal, isn't it? I think it's It's a big deal, isn't it? I think it's something that I had to overcome and something that I had to overcome and something that I had to overcome and many people don't or or it takes them a many people don't or or it takes them a many people don't or or it takes them a while to overcome it. And it's not while to overcome it. And it's not while to overcome it. And it's not necessarily the fear of failure. Well, I necessarily the fear of failure. Well, I necessarily the fear of failure. Well, I No, it is there. There's totally the No, it is there. There's totally the No, it is there. There's totally the fear of failure in there for me or was fear of failure in there for me or was fear of failure in there for me or was early on, but it's also the fear of early on, but it's also the fear of early on, but it's also the fear of getting something wrong publicly, some getting something wrong publicly, some getting something wrong publicly, some sort of fear of shame, some sort of sort of fear of shame, some sort of sort of fear of shame, some sort of looking silly, stupid. But once I looking silly, stupid. But once I looking silly, stupid. But once I switched over to not really minding switched over to not really minding switched over to not really minding about that, it was a bit of a superpower about that, it was a bit of a superpower about that, it was a bit of a superpower because like you said, there's so much because like you said, there's so much because like you said, there's so much knowledge in that. I mean, as long as knowledge in that. I mean, as long as knowledge in that. I mean, as long as you can calm your own ego enough for it you can calm your own ego enough for it you can calm your own ego enough for it to be okay, to get through it, to learn to be okay, to get through it, to learn to be okay, to get through it, to learn through it, fear is a beast. fear will through it, fear is a beast. fear will through it, fear is a beast. fear will stop a person. Yeah.

stop a person. Yeah. stop a person. Yeah. >> I think the thing that I don't know why, >> I think the thing that I don't know why, >> I think the thing that I don't know why, but it worked for me that I figured out but it worked for me that I figured out but it worked for me that I figured out if you're afraid of selling, it's if you're afraid of selling, it's if you're afraid of selling, it's because you're probably not doing it because you're probably not doing it because you're probably not doing it right. Because effective selling means right. Because effective selling means right. Because effective selling means you're not doing most of the talking. you're not doing most of the talking. you're not doing most of the talking. And so it means that if you're thinking And so it means that if you're thinking And so it means that if you're thinking about it right, all you really are doing about it right, all you really are doing about it right, all you really are doing is can I ask good questions? Can I just is can I ask good questions? Can I just is can I ask good questions? Can I just be a curious person? can I think about be a curious person? can I think about be a curious person? can I think about do I have enough information through do I have enough information through do I have enough information through this conversation to solve their this conversation to solve their this conversation to solve their problem? And if you look at it more like problem? And if you look at it more like problem? And if you look at it more like that, like it's just a creative problem that, like it's just a creative problem that, like it's just a creative problem solving exercise where you're gathering solving exercise where you're gathering solving exercise where you're gathering enough information to know if you can enough information to know if you can enough information to know if you can help. I think for me that changed it. help. I think for me that changed it. help. I think for me that changed it. Whereas if you're thinking about it as Whereas if you're thinking about it as Whereas if you're thinking about it as like, oh, I got to close this deal to like, oh, I got to close this deal to like, oh, I got to close this deal to make enough money to like hit my number. make enough money to like hit my number. make enough money to like hit my number. So like if you add all the sales stress So like if you add all the sales stress So like if you add all the sales stress overhead to it, it's very easy to get overhead to it, it's very easy to get overhead to it, it's very easy to get distracted from the important part, distracted from the important part, distracted from the important part, which is I need to find 30 minutes with which is I need to find 30 minutes with which is I need to find 30 minutes with this person and just shut up and just this person and just shut up and just this person and just shut up and just And then you learn about and then you And then you learn about and then you And then you learn about and then you learn about people's problems and and learn about people's problems and and learn about people's problems and and maybe they mention something else that maybe they mention something else that maybe they mention something else that you can solve for them in the future. you can solve for them in the future. you can solve for them in the future. But it is that dark side is that it's But it is that dark side is that it's But it is that dark side is that it's that preconception of the saleserson as that preconception of the saleserson as that preconception of the saleserson as convincing somebody to buy something convincing somebody to buy something convincing somebody to buy something that they don't need. That's unethical.

that they don't need. That's unethical. that they don't need. That's unethical. And it's I don't think it's what most And it's I don't think it's what most And it's I don't think it's what most people are doing. Nice. people are doing. Nice. people are doing. Nice. >> I think yeah, there is this perception >> I think yeah, there is this perception >> I think yeah, there is this perception that what is it? This this the saying uh that what is it? This this the saying uh that what is it? This this the saying uh from when I was a kid like selling ice from when I was a kid like selling ice from when I was a kid like selling ice to Eskimos, you know, like there's this to Eskimos, you know, like there's this to Eskimos, you know, like there's this impression that you've got to be this impression that you've got to be this impression that you've got to be this guy who can convince anybody to buy guy who can convince anybody to buy guy who can convince anybody to buy anything. And I'm like, first off, that anything. And I'm like, first off, that anything. And I'm like, first off, that exists and those people are there and exists and those people are there and exists and those people are there and that's fine and that's a hell of a that's fine and that's a hell of a that's fine and that's a hell of a skill, but most of the time you're just skill, but most of the time you're just skill, but most of the time you're just trying to problem solve for people. You trying to problem solve for people. You trying to problem solve for people. You can also look at it like um just making can also look at it like um just making can also look at it like um just making an offer, can't you? Look, I have this an offer, can't you? Look, I have this an offer, can't you? Look, I have this thing that I think is useful. Would you thing that I think is useful. Would you thing that I think is useful. Would you like it? It can be as simple as that. I like it? It can be as simple as that. I like it? It can be as simple as that. I think that in a face-to-face sales think that in a face-to-face sales think that in a face-to-face sales environment, you would outsell me. I environment, you would outsell me. I environment, you would outsell me. I could not sell on the phone or or in could not sell on the phone or or in could not sell on the phone or or in person, I don't think. But email, fine. person, I don't think. But email, fine. person, I don't think. But email, fine. >> Yeah, I've had to do it. It's I don't >> Yeah, I've had to do it. It's I don't >> Yeah, I've had to do it. It's I don't ever want to do it again. You know what ever want to do it again. You know what ever want to do it again. You know what it is? I all joking aside on on things it is? I all joking aside on on things it is? I all joking aside on on things like cold calling for me, it's a like cold calling for me, it's a like cold calling for me, it's a fundamental thing, right? Like, have you fundamental thing, right? Like, have you fundamental thing, right? Like, have you you've cold called, right? You've picked you've cold called, right? You've picked you've cold called, right? You've picked up the phone and you've never even up the phone and you've never even up the phone and you've never even tried. tried. tried. >> Never. No. >> Never. No. >> Never. No. >> Okay. Different era. This was early in >> Okay. Different era. This was early in >> Okay. Different era. This was early in my career is when I had to like learn my career is when I had to like learn my career is when I had to like learn how to do this and you know have how to do this and you know have how to do this and you know have managers who like record your calls and managers who like record your calls and managers who like record your calls and then play it back with your whole team then play it back with your whole team then play it back with your whole team and like let's listen to one of Matt's and like let's listen to one of Matt's and like let's listen to one of Matt's calls and then they're like oh you calls and then they're like oh you calls and then they're like oh you shouldn't have said this or oh you shouldn't have said this or oh you shouldn't have said this or oh you should do this. So, like if you've never should do this. So, like if you've never should do this. So, like if you've never lived a day in the life of like a true lived a day in the life of like a true lived a day in the life of like a true rep, it's grueling. It's it's exposing rep, it's grueling. It's it's exposing rep, it's grueling. It's it's exposing in ways that are uncomfortable, but you in ways that are uncomfortable, but you in ways that are uncomfortable, but you get better. And when you see yourself get better. And when you see yourself get better. And when you see yourself get better from it, you're like, "Okay, get better from it, you're like, "Okay, get better from it, you're like, "Okay, I can deal with that a little bit more I can deal with that a little bit more I can deal with that a little bit more and a little bit more." And you get to a and a little bit more." And you get to a and a little bit more." And you get to a certain point where you realize like

certain point where you realize like certain point where you realize like it's probably the secret to success it's probably the secret to success it's probably the secret to success actually is being able to go back and be actually is being able to go back and be actually is being able to go back and be willing to take constructive feedback willing to take constructive feedback willing to take constructive feedback and really put it in play. But it's and really put it in play. But it's and really put it in play. But it's hard. But like cold calling for me, the hard. But like cold calling for me, the hard. But like cold calling for me, the break is I'm a busy person. You're a break is I'm a busy person. You're a break is I'm a busy person. You're a busy person. Our phones serve a purpose busy person. Our phones serve a purpose busy person. Our phones serve a purpose for us and we have to prioritize our for us and we have to prioritize our for us and we have to prioritize our time and I can't I can't operate as a time and I can't I can't operate as a time and I can't I can't operate as a hypocritical person. It just doesn't hypocritical person. It just doesn't hypocritical person. It just doesn't work for me. I too much self-loathing work for me. I too much self-loathing work for me. I too much self-loathing and it just doesn't feel right. So if and it just doesn't feel right. So if and it just doesn't feel right. So if I'm not willing to take a cold call I'm not willing to take a cold call I'm not willing to take a cold call because I'm a busy and if I'm taking because I'm a busy and if I'm taking because I'm a busy and if I'm taking your call, it means I accidentally your call, it means I accidentally your call, it means I accidentally picked up and I had something way more picked up and I had something way more picked up and I had something way more important to do. And if I'm talking to important to do. And if I'm talking to important to do. And if I'm talking to you, then there's an opportunity cost to you, then there's an opportunity cost to you, then there's an opportunity cost to that that has nothing to do with that that that has nothing to do with that that that has nothing to do with that person. It has everything to do with the person. It has everything to do with the person. It has everything to do with the fact that honestly, if I have enough fact that honestly, if I have enough fact that honestly, if I have enough time to take a cold call, I'm probably time to take a cold call, I'm probably time to take a cold call, I'm probably not doing my job right. And so, there's not doing my job right. And so, there's not doing my job right. And so, there's just a certain amount of respect in that just a certain amount of respect in that just a certain amount of respect in that for me. And I can't if I'm not willing for me. And I can't if I'm not willing for me. And I can't if I'm not willing to take those calls, I can't in good to take those calls, I can't in good to take those calls, I can't in good conscious make those calls because I conscious make those calls because I conscious make those calls because I think the other person on the other end, think the other person on the other end, think the other person on the other end, like me, is a decision maker with lots like me, is a decision maker with lots like me, is a decision maker with lots going on and lots to do. I think it's going on and lots to do. I think it's going on and lots to do. I think it's far more respectful. I think it's far far more respectful. I think it's far far more respectful. I think it's far more I'm just respectful is good enough.

more I'm just respectful is good enough. more I'm just respectful is good enough. And it's just respectful to be able to And it's just respectful to be able to And it's just respectful to be able to send somebody a message that says, "If send somebody a message that says, "If send somebody a message that says, "If this is interesting, let's talk about this is interesting, let's talk about this is interesting, let's talk about it. And if not, I'm not going to bother it. And if not, I'm not going to bother it. And if not, I'm not going to bother you by calling you 55 times and trying you by calling you 55 times and trying you by calling you 55 times and trying to trick you into catching this. I'm not to trick you into catching this. I'm not to trick you into catching this. I'm not trying to trick you into talking to me. trying to trick you into talking to me. trying to trick you into talking to me. I want it to be I I I just want to have I want it to be I I I just want to have I want it to be I I I just want to have a conversation on better terms than a conversation on better terms than a conversation on better terms than that." And so for me, it's that it's a that." And so for me, it's that it's a that." And so for me, it's that it's a very philosophical thing, I realize, but very philosophical thing, I realize, but very philosophical thing, I realize, but um that's what it gets that's that's um that's what it gets that's that's um that's what it gets that's that's what gets in the way of cold calling for what gets in the way of cold calling for what gets in the way of cold calling for me. I don't I don't find it efficient me. I don't I don't find it efficient me. I don't I don't find it efficient either. I feel like there's a there's an either. I feel like there's a there's an either. I feel like there's a there's an ROI problem with it, too. ROI problem with it, too. ROI problem with it, too. Oh yeah. Yeah. One thing that I used to Oh yeah. Yeah. One thing that I used to Oh yeah. Yeah. One thing that I used to do which is the other end of the do which is the other end of the do which is the other end of the spectrum that in the utmost of spectrum that in the utmost of spectrum that in the utmost of personalization in terms of sales, I personalization in terms of sales, I personalization in terms of sales, I would instead of pitching these editors would instead of pitching these editors would instead of pitching these editors that we spoke about or the producers the that we spoke about or the producers the that we spoke about or the producers the story in an email, I'd go to New York story in an email, I'd go to New York story in an email, I'd go to New York first and then I'd say and I'd email all first and then I'd say and I'd email all first and then I'd say and I'd email all the editors I knew were in New York and the editors I knew were in New York and the editors I knew were in New York and I'd say I'm in town. You want to go get I'd say I'm in town. You want to go get I'd say I'm in town. You want to go get coffee? And then we go hang out and have coffee? And then we go hang out and have coffee? And then we go hang out and have coffee and then but then that coffee and then but then that coffee and then but then that relationship was cemented for so long. relationship was cemented for so long. relationship was cemented for so long. They recognized I showed up in person They recognized I showed up in person They recognized I showed up in person and uh the ROI on that was quite good and uh the ROI on that was quite good and uh the ROI on that was quite good except for the flight.

except for the flight. except for the flight. >> Yeah. So, one thing that hasn't come up >> Yeah. So, one thing that hasn't come up >> Yeah. So, one thing that hasn't come up yet in all of this discussion and I have yet in all of this discussion and I have yet in all of this discussion and I have to ask and this is not just me teasing to ask and this is not just me teasing to ask and this is not just me teasing because I know you you you use Hunter, because I know you you you use Hunter, because I know you you you use Hunter, but a lot of time gets spent in when but a lot of time gets spent in when but a lot of time gets spent in when people talk about this like in our people talk about this like in our people talk about this like in our industry there's just a lot of industry there's just a lot of industry there's just a lot of conversation about tech stack tech. It's conversation about tech stack tech. It's conversation about tech stack tech. It's everybody's really wound up about oh I everybody's really wound up about oh I everybody's really wound up about oh I can do this and this and I can pull can do this and this and I can pull can do this and this and I can pull these five pieces of technology together these five pieces of technology together these five pieces of technology together blah blah blah. It's really ornate and blah blah blah. It's really ornate and blah blah blah. It's really ornate and I'm not against it. But I think it's I'm not against it. But I think it's I'm not against it. But I think it's really cool and kind of creative, but it really cool and kind of creative, but it really cool and kind of creative, but it also is overkill for probably 90% of the also is overkill for probably 90% of the also is overkill for probably 90% of the market. But you haven't mentioned tech market. But you haven't mentioned tech market. But you haven't mentioned tech once really. It's interesting cuz like once really. It's interesting cuz like once really. It's interesting cuz like is tech stack important to you or are is tech stack important to you or are is tech stack important to you or are you looking for the fewest possible you looking for the fewest possible you looking for the fewest possible technologies? Like how do you think technologies? Like how do you think technologies? Like how do you think about technology in your workflows? about technology in your workflows? about technology in your workflows? >> The simplest stack possible if you if >> The simplest stack possible if you if >> The simplest stack possible if you if you want to say in the documentary work you want to say in the documentary work you want to say in the documentary work I make that's just Adobe Premiere or or I make that's just Adobe Premiere or or I make that's just Adobe Premiere or or Photoshop and and obviously hardware the Photoshop and and obviously hardware the Photoshop and and obviously hardware the cameras. So that that that's easy. In cameras. So that that that's easy. In cameras. So that that that's easy. In the in the low ticket stuff, the the the in the low ticket stuff, the the the in the low ticket stuff, the the database I offer, it's really simple.

database I offer, it's really simple. database I offer, it's really simple. It's a email scheduler. It's a database. It's a email scheduler. It's a database. It's a email scheduler. It's a database. So air table, it's web flow for website So air table, it's web flow for website So air table, it's web flow for website front end. And that's about it. That's front end. And that's about it. That's front end. And that's about it. That's about it. Yeah, super lean. I think it about it. Yeah, super lean. I think it about it. Yeah, super lean. I think it only cost me like 600 bucks a month is only cost me like 600 bucks a month is only cost me like 600 bucks a month is my bill for all of that stuff. But if my bill for all of that stuff. But if my bill for all of that stuff. But if you leave me alone in a room, I will you leave me alone in a room, I will you leave me alone in a room, I will over complicate it and I will try to over complicate it and I will try to over complicate it and I will try to implement AI and you know what I mean implement AI and you know what I mean implement AI and you know what I mean and I'll try to have it all automated and I'll try to have it all automated and I'll try to have it all automated and you know I'll use Zapia and all and you know I'll use Zapia and all and you know I'll use Zapia and all these things to to try and add these things to to try and add these things to to try and add functionality but people don't really functionality but people don't really functionality but people don't really want it. I've I found the my audience want it. I've I found the my audience want it. I've I found the my audience doesn't really want over complicated doesn't really want over complicated doesn't really want over complicated stuff and then honestly it's too much stuff and then honestly it's too much stuff and then honestly it's too much for me to get my head around and then for me to get my head around and then for me to get my head around and then something will break a connection a zap something will break a connection a zap something will break a connection a zap will break and something will mess up will break and something will mess up will break and something will mess up and right now I'm in the process of and right now I'm in the process of and right now I'm in the process of stripping everything out and making stripping everything out and making stripping everything out and making everything as simple as possible. I love everything as simple as possible. I love everything as simple as possible. I love I love technology it can do amazing I love technology it can do amazing I love technology it can do amazing things for us but it can also suck a lot things for us but it can also suck a lot things for us but it can also suck a lot of time for for me. Yeah. of time for for me. Yeah. of time for for me. Yeah. >> Yeah. Yeah. And your point about >> Yeah. Yeah. And your point about >> Yeah. Yeah. And your point about sometimes something breaks, like that's sometimes something breaks, like that's sometimes something breaks, like that's the other part that people don't think the other part that people don't think the other part that people don't think about a lot is the support, the sort of about a lot is the support, the sort of about a lot is the support, the sort of maintenance of it, and then just the maintenance of it, and then just the maintenance of it, and then just the sort of mental distraction that that can sort of mental distraction that that can sort of mental distraction that that can create sometimes, which I think is create sometimes, which I think is create sometimes, which I think is bigger than most people think about.

bigger than most people think about. bigger than most people think about. >> Yeah. Yeah. Cuz we only have so much >> Yeah. Yeah. Cuz we only have so much >> Yeah. Yeah. Cuz we only have so much time and energy. Yeah. I think once you time and energy. Yeah. I think once you time and energy. Yeah. I think once you know, it boils down quite easy, doesn't know, it boils down quite easy, doesn't know, it boils down quite easy, doesn't it? Once you you find who you want to it? Once you you find who you want to it? Once you you find who you want to reach out to and then you just write reach out to and then you just write reach out to and then you just write them an email or or or reach out to them them an email or or or reach out to them them an email or or or reach out to them in the simplest way possible. Anything in the simplest way possible. Anything in the simplest way possible. Anything else is over complication. And for for else is over complication. And for for else is over complication. And for for me, I don't know. I I don't know how me, I don't know. I I don't know how me, I don't know. I I don't know how other people are doing it but other people are doing it but other people are doing it but >> no I think look there are agencies where >> no I think look there are agencies where >> no I think look there are agencies where they focus on this as their proficiency they focus on this as their proficiency they focus on this as their proficiency is all they do and if they need to scale is all they do and if they need to scale is all they do and if they need to scale up really flexible you know deeply up really flexible you know deeply up really flexible you know deeply articulate tech stacks to be able to articulate tech stacks to be able to articulate tech stacks to be able to automate more of it like I get that automate more of it like I get that automate more of it like I get that right they're doing a high volume job right they're doing a high volume job right they're doing a high volume job they need all of that but I think they need all of that but I think they need all of that but I think they're also the ones disproportionately they're also the ones disproportionately they're also the ones disproportionately talking to the market and so if you're a talking to the market and so if you're a talking to the market and so if you're a solo person or you know a small team you solo person or you know a small team you solo person or you know a small team you know if you're if you're games and know if you're if you're games and know if you're if you're games and you're you're building a marketing you're you're building a marketing you're you're building a marketing organization, organization, organization, all the all that you hear is like text all the all that you hear is like text all the all that you hear is like text tech. Oh, you got to sign up to this. tech. Oh, you got to sign up to this. tech. Oh, you got to sign up to this. Oh, I'm using this. It's a game changer. Oh, I'm using this. It's a game changer. Oh, I'm using this. It's a game changer. But I think when you're talking about But I think when you're talking about But I think when you're talking about small teams or or individuals trying to small teams or or individuals trying to small teams or or individuals trying to build up their portfolio, it's no, the build up their portfolio, it's no, the build up their portfolio, it's no, the simpler the better. And I think it's a simpler the better. And I think it's a simpler the better. And I think it's a lack of hearing that that's an lack of hearing that that's an lack of hearing that that's an acceptable answer a lot of the time.

acceptable answer a lot of the time. acceptable answer a lot of the time. >> Well, for me, it's not necessarily less >> Well, for me, it's not necessarily less >> Well, for me, it's not necessarily less is more in terms of tech stack. Over is more in terms of tech stack. Over is more in terms of tech stack. Over time, I'm finding a few platforms that time, I'm finding a few platforms that time, I'm finding a few platforms that work incredibly well together. So, I'm work incredibly well together. So, I'm work incredibly well together. So, I'm finding what works for me. And before finding what works for me. And before finding what works for me. And before I'd use like three things because I I'd use like three things because I I'd use like three things because I didn't know that this other platform didn't know that this other platform didn't know that this other platform existed that would do everything. So, existed that would do everything. So, existed that would do everything. So, now it's simp. It's simplifying because now it's simp. It's simplifying because now it's simp. It's simplifying because I'm finding better platforms really, I'm finding better platforms really, I'm finding better platforms really, which is which is what's happening. which is which is what's happening. which is which is what's happening. Takes a little bit of effort off my Takes a little bit of effort off my Takes a little bit of effort off my plate. plate. plate. >> That's supposed to be the promise of >> That's supposed to be the promise of >> That's supposed to be the promise of technology after all, right? It's taking technology after all, right? It's taking technology after all, right? It's taking things off your plate. things off your plate. things off your plate. >> Yeah. and we can't live without it >> Yeah. and we can't live without it >> Yeah. and we can't live without it anymore. anymore. anymore. >> We do seem dangerously close to that >> We do seem dangerously close to that >> We do seem dangerously close to that being a true statement. Yeah. >> How about you guys? I mean, what's yours >> How about you guys? I mean, what's yours look like? Without giving too much away, look like? Without giving too much away, look like? Without giving too much away, >> we are, despite being digital first and >> we are, despite being digital first and >> we are, despite being digital first and probably almost everybody on the team probably almost everybody on the team probably almost everybody on the team being a bit of a tech geek, we've opted being a bit of a tech geek, we've opted being a bit of a tech geek, we've opted for a more simple stack. And so we have for a more simple stack. And so we have for a more simple stack. And so we have one marketing outreach platform that one marketing outreach platform that one marketing outreach platform that does sort of all of our customer does sort of all of our customer does sort of all of our customer communications and you know all of our communications and you know all of our communications and you know all of our marketing type stuff and then we have marketing type stuff and then we have marketing type stuff and then we have one platform for customer success. But one platform for customer success. But one platform for customer success. But like we've gone the opposite route where like we've gone the opposite route where like we've gone the opposite route where we've tried to get the fewest possible we've tried to get the fewest possible we've tried to get the fewest possible tools for each team to do what they need tools for each team to do what they need tools for each team to do what they need to do effectively and efficiently. And to do effectively and efficiently. And to do effectively and efficiently. And so our company tech stack is probably so our company tech stack is probably so our company tech stack is probably lighter weight than most. And then for lighter weight than most. And then for lighter weight than most. And then for cold outreach, you know, we're using our cold outreach, you know, we're using our cold outreach, you know, we're using our own product, so it's, you know, it's own product, so it's, you know, it's own product, so it's, you know, it's homegrown in that regard. But homegrown in that regard. But homegrown in that regard. But >> yeah, also when you can use your own >> yeah, also when you can use your own >> yeah, also when you can use your own product, you see where it you see what product, you see where it you see what product, you see where it you see what you can do better.

you can do better. you can do better. >> Yeah. Yeah. And every once in a while, >> Yeah. Yeah. And every once in a while, >> Yeah. Yeah. And every once in a while, we'll fold people in who are used to we'll fold people in who are used to we'll fold people in who are used to using other platforms and have them do a using other platforms and have them do a using other platforms and have them do a project with us and then be like, "And project with us and then be like, "And project with us and then be like, "And by the way, part of your job is to tell by the way, part of your job is to tell by the way, part of your job is to tell us what you would have been able to do us what you would have been able to do us what you would have been able to do differently had you had certain features differently had you had certain features differently had you had certain features so we can evaluate if it makes sense for so we can evaluate if it makes sense for so we can evaluate if it makes sense for the rest of our users." And so yeah, we the rest of our users." And so yeah, we the rest of our users." And so yeah, we use that as a as a kind of a technique use that as a as a kind of a technique use that as a as a kind of a technique to also get information which uh which to also get information which uh which to also get information which uh which works. But I have a different question works. But I have a different question works. But I have a different question for you. So have you ever been cold for you. So have you ever been cold for you. So have you ever been cold emailed and like responded and like emailed and like responded and like emailed and like responded and like bought from a cold email? bought from a cold email? bought from a cold email? >> Bought from a cold email? >> Bought from a cold email? >> Bought from a cold email? >> Yeah, >> Yeah, >> Yeah, >> I've definitely been cold emailed and >> I've definitely been cold emailed and >> I've definitely been cold emailed and the the best ones appear people cold the the best ones appear people cold the the best ones appear people cold emailing me offering me work, you know, emailing me offering me work, you know, emailing me offering me work, you know, and of course I take those ones. I don't and of course I take those ones. I don't and of course I take those ones. I don't get cold emailed much. I I I honestly get cold emailed much. I I I honestly get cold emailed much. I I I honestly can't I have been thinking about this can't I have been thinking about this can't I have been thinking about this recently. I I honestly don't think I recently. I I honestly don't think I recently. I I honestly don't think I have. have. have. >> That's interesting. >> That's interesting. >> That's interesting. >> It's not a very good answer to your >> It's not a very good answer to your >> It's not a very good answer to your question. question. question. >> No, it's okay. But you should uh you >> No, it's okay. But you should uh you >> No, it's okay. But you should uh you should figure out how to sell that should figure out how to sell that should figure out how to sell that secret because for those of us that get secret because for those of us that get secret because for those of us that get hundreds a day, that's uh we'd all love hundreds a day, that's uh we'd all love hundreds a day, that's uh we'd all love to figure out how to have a bubble like to figure out how to have a bubble like to figure out how to have a bubble like Spike.

Spike. Spike. >> I don't know why I do not. Yeah, but >> I don't know why I do not. Yeah, but >> I don't know why I do not. Yeah, but that's not to say I wouldn't. I mean, if that's not to say I wouldn't. I mean, if that's not to say I wouldn't. I mean, if someone had something that I wanted, I someone had something that I wanted, I someone had something that I wanted, I definitely would buy it. Oh, well, yeah, definitely would buy it. Oh, well, yeah, definitely would buy it. Oh, well, yeah, probably. I have Oh, no. I tell you probably. I have Oh, no. I tell you probably. I have Oh, no. I tell you what, what, what, it would have been courses or education it would have been courses or education it would have been courses or education from a particular very famous internet from a particular very famous internet from a particular very famous internet businessman. businessman. businessman. >> Way to keep that very vague. Yeah. >> Way to keep that very vague. Yeah. >> Way to keep that very vague. Yeah. >> Alex Horoszi. There you go. >> Alex Horoszi. There you go. >> Alex Horoszi. There you go. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. I definitely bought his books from >> Yeah. I definitely bought his books from >> Yeah. I definitely bought his books from a cold email. I wanted to be so cynical a cold email. I wanted to be so cynical a cold email. I wanted to be so cynical about him because he was just so about him because he was just so about him because he was just so ubiquitous for a while and that kind of ubiquitous for a while and that kind of ubiquitous for a while and that kind of irks me when But goodness gracious. Like irks me when But goodness gracious. Like irks me when But goodness gracious. Like I dig it. Like he's doing good work. I dig it. Like he's doing good work. I dig it. Like he's doing good work. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Holy Yeah. >> Holy Yeah. >> Holy Yeah. >> What a mind. What a mind. >> What a mind. What a mind. >> What a mind. What a mind. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. So I I guess so. But the best told >> Yeah. So I I guess so. But the best told >> Yeah. So I I guess so. But the best told emails are when people ask me if I'll emails are when people ask me if I'll emails are when people ask me if I'll work for them. That's lovely. work for them. That's lovely. work for them. That's lovely. >> That's cheating. That's fine. I'll let >> That's cheating. That's fine. I'll let >> That's cheating. That's fine. I'll let you know. you know. you know. >> One last thing. I just had another >> One last thing. I just had another >> One last thing. I just had another thought about text. What I am loving at thought about text. What I am loving at thought about text. What I am loving at the moment about tech is that although the moment about tech is that although the moment about tech is that although I'm simplifying the tech that I am using I'm simplifying the tech that I am using I'm simplifying the tech that I am using and I'm not trying to implement AI into and I'm not trying to implement AI into and I'm not trying to implement AI into my stuff at all. I'm not trying to build my stuff at all. I'm not trying to build my stuff at all. I'm not trying to build my own AI processes and drag it into the my own AI processes and drag it into the my own AI processes and drag it into the work that I do. But I'm really enjoying work that I do. But I'm really enjoying work that I do. But I'm really enjoying that software platforms that I'm using that software platforms that I'm using that software platforms that I'm using there's just AI functionality popping up there's just AI functionality popping up there's just AI functionality popping up which is making things so much easier.

which is making things so much easier. which is making things so much easier. I'm enjoying that a lot. So, so although I'm enjoying that a lot. So, so although I'm enjoying that a lot. So, so although I'm not I guess actually it it points I'm not I guess actually it it points I'm not I guess actually it it points back to what we were saying before, back to what we were saying before, back to what we were saying before, doesn't it? On on subscription services, doesn't it? On on subscription services, doesn't it? On on subscription services, the platform will iterate while you're the platform will iterate while you're the platform will iterate while you're using it and I'm enjoying that. I'm using it and I'm enjoying that. I'm using it and I'm enjoying that. I'm enjoying the AI stuff, enjoying the AI stuff, enjoying the AI stuff, >> right? >> right? >> right? >> And everybody was so focused on how AI >> And everybody was so focused on how AI >> And everybody was so focused on how AI was going to disrupt in ways that they was going to disrupt in ways that they was going to disrupt in ways that they that they couldn't keep up with that that they couldn't keep up with that that they couldn't keep up with that they didn't get a chance to talk as much they didn't get a chance to talk as much they didn't get a chance to talk as much about. about. about. Honestly, this is a a glorious period of Honestly, this is a a glorious period of Honestly, this is a a glorious period of new tool sets for a for software new tool sets for a for software new tool sets for a for software companies. And if you're just thinking companies. And if you're just thinking companies. And if you're just thinking about being a hybrid business and you're about being a hybrid business and you're about being a hybrid business and you're just thinking like, okay, if it's a set just thinking like, okay, if it's a set just thinking like, okay, if it's a set of tools, is there anything that that of tools, is there anything that that of tools, is there anything that that tool can do better that I'm currently tool can do better that I'm currently tool can do better that I'm currently doing than what I'm currently using? And doing than what I'm currently using? And doing than what I'm currently using? And if you start folding AI in like that, if you start folding AI in like that, if you start folding AI in like that, it's I first off, it's way more it's I first off, it's way more it's I first off, it's way more practical, but I think also it really practical, but I think also it really practical, but I think also it really delivers value in clear-cut ways. We delivers value in clear-cut ways. We delivers value in clear-cut ways. We don't all have to be Chad GBT. We don't all have to be Chad GBT. We don't all have to be Chad GBT. We shouldn't all be rushing to try to mimic shouldn't all be rushing to try to mimic shouldn't all be rushing to try to mimic GIGBT, but I think there's certainly GIGBT, but I think there's certainly GIGBT, but I think there's certainly lots that you can do to bring that to lots that you can do to bring that to lots that you can do to bring that to bear to make your Have you I'm curious.

bear to make your Have you I'm curious. bear to make your Have you I'm curious. Have you tried writing your pitches? Have you tried writing your pitches? Have you tried writing your pitches? Have you tried using uh any of the AI Have you tried using uh any of the AI Have you tried using uh any of the AI tools for that? Did it work? Did you tools for that? Did it work? Did you tools for that? Did it work? Did you like it better? like it better? like it better? >> No, I do not yet. >> No, I do not yet. >> No, I do not yet. There will be a day. There will be a There will be a day. There will be a There will be a day. There will be a day. Do you know what it lacks the um day. Do you know what it lacks the um day. Do you know what it lacks the um the thing that I found that is most that the thing that I found that is most that the thing that I found that is most that makes the the secret source in the makes the the secret source in the makes the the secret source in the pictures that I write is the personal pictures that I write is the personal pictures that I write is the personal story. So like if I can share a bit story. So like if I can share a bit story. So like if I can share a bit about me or like how I overcame this about me or like how I overcame this about me or like how I overcame this thing or how this was a problem or just thing or how this was a problem or just thing or how this was a problem or just how I'm you know making this work and AI how I'm you know making this work and AI how I'm you know making this work and AI does not have that. It can't do it. does not have that. It can't do it. does not have that. It can't do it. Maybe one day it will but what about Maybe one day it will but what about Maybe one day it will but what about you? Are you using it for writing? I you? Are you using it for writing? I you? Are you using it for writing? I mean, it's incumbent upon us to try to mean, it's incumbent upon us to try to mean, it's incumbent upon us to try to figure out the easy lowhanging fruit figure out the easy lowhanging fruit figure out the easy lowhanging fruit opportunities for improvement for almost opportunities for improvement for almost opportunities for improvement for almost everybody I've seen doing cold outreach everybody I've seen doing cold outreach everybody I've seen doing cold outreach is in the writing. There was such a long is in the writing. There was such a long is in the writing. There was such a long phase of email templates with phase of email templates with phase of email templates with personalization variables that ended up, personalization variables that ended up, personalization variables that ended up, how do I say this? It's like they ended how do I say this? It's like they ended how do I say this? It's like they ended up demonstrating technology for up demonstrating technology for up demonstrating technology for technologies sake instead of using the technologies sake instead of using the technologies sake instead of using the technology to to solve personalization.

technology to to solve personalization. technology to to solve personalization. And what they were saying is like, well, And what they were saying is like, well, And what they were saying is like, well, here's some data that you can have about here's some data that you can have about here's some data that you can have about Spike. So when you write Spike an email, Spike. So when you write Spike an email, Spike. So when you write Spike an email, open it with, hey, Spike, as owner of open it with, hey, Spike, as owner of open it with, hey, Spike, as owner of your own photography business studio, your own photography business studio, your own photography business studio, whatever they whatever thing they come whatever they whatever thing they come whatever they whatever thing they come up with, it's like your business name up with, it's like your business name up with, it's like your business name insert here. You know, I'm sure you deal insert here. You know, I'm sure you deal insert here. You know, I'm sure you deal with problems like X, Y, and Z all the with problems like X, Y, and Z all the with problems like X, Y, and Z all the and so what ends up happening is there's and so what ends up happening is there's and so what ends up happening is there's all these like sentences and paragraphs all these like sentences and paragraphs all these like sentences and paragraphs where the real purpose is to demonstrate where the real purpose is to demonstrate where the real purpose is to demonstrate that they somehow know things about you. that they somehow know things about you. that they somehow know things about you. And like most of the time those are And like most of the time those are And like most of the time those are dumb. They don't add any value. they dumb. They don't add any value. they dumb. They don't add any value. they don't actually move the conversation don't actually move the conversation don't actually move the conversation forward or solve a problem. And and so I forward or solve a problem. And and so I forward or solve a problem. And and so I think what happened was for a long time think what happened was for a long time think what happened was for a long time that was leading the best practices in that was leading the best practices in that was leading the best practices in cold outreach. A AI is so much more cold outreach. A AI is so much more cold outreach. A AI is so much more effective at that job than email effective at that job than email effective at that job than email templates were. And it does a much templates were. And it does a much templates were. And it does a much better job of not trying to do the wrong better job of not trying to do the wrong better job of not trying to do the wrong things unless you tell it to. And so I things unless you tell it to. And so I things unless you tell it to. And so I think in that regard think in that regard think in that regard it's better. And look, at the end of the it's better. And look, at the end of the it's better. And look, at the end of the day, no one cares if it's AI. The day, no one cares if it's AI. The day, no one cares if it's AI. The recipient doesn't care. the sender recipient doesn't care. the sender recipient doesn't care. the sender doesn't care. All that matters is is it doesn't care. All that matters is is it doesn't care. All that matters is is it communicating the message in a way that communicating the message in a way that communicating the message in a way that is going to make the most sense and be is going to make the most sense and be is going to make the most sense and be the most relevant to the recipient. And the most relevant to the recipient. And the most relevant to the recipient. And if it if AI and AI is fundamentally if it if AI and AI is fundamentally if it if AI and AI is fundamentally better at doing that job. So, we're better at doing that job. So, we're better at doing that job. So, we're incorporating that into our email incorporating that into our email incorporating that into our email campaigns. But to me, it's less about AI campaigns. But to me, it's less about AI campaigns. But to me, it's less about AI writing it and it's more about getting writing it and it's more about getting writing it and it's more about getting the templates and the personalization the templates and the personalization the templates and the personalization variables out of there. It's like those variables out of there. It's like those variables out of there. It's like those are not the right tool for the job are not the right tool for the job are not the right tool for the job anymore. So, it's more from that anymore. So, it's more from that anymore. So, it's more from that perspective than anything. It underpins perspective than anything. It underpins perspective than anything. It underpins everything, doesn't it? just the written everything, doesn't it? just the written everything, doesn't it? just the written word is so powerful.

word is so powerful. word is so powerful. >> I agree. I think it this is my my thing >> I agree. I think it this is my my thing >> I agree. I think it this is my my thing with cold outreach is if people focused with cold outreach is if people focused with cold outreach is if people focused on the basics and just got better at on the basics and just got better at on the basics and just got better at writing the message in the first place, writing the message in the first place, writing the message in the first place, that would probably pay more dividends that would probably pay more dividends that would probably pay more dividends than any tech or any playbook that than any tech or any playbook that than any tech or any playbook that they've read. It's it's really if you they've read. It's it's really if you they've read. It's it's really if you focus on those and you get good at focus on those and you get good at focus on those and you get good at those, the conversations that will those, the conversations that will those, the conversations that will generate are going to be the ones you generate are going to be the ones you generate are going to be the ones you want anyway. But I don't mean to pepper want anyway. But I don't mean to pepper want anyway. But I don't mean to pepper over that like that's some clear-cut, over that like that's some clear-cut, over that like that's some clear-cut, easy solved problem. I don't think easy solved problem. I don't think easy solved problem. I don't think selling ideas is everybody's strength. selling ideas is everybody's strength. selling ideas is everybody's strength. >> Yeah, true. And I think organizing your >> Yeah, true. And I think organizing your >> Yeah, true. And I think organizing your thoughts, like I like writing for that thoughts, like I like writing for that thoughts, like I like writing for that reason. I use it as a tool to organize reason. I use it as a tool to organize reason. I use it as a tool to organize ideas and thoughts, but like like we ideas and thoughts, but like like we ideas and thoughts, but like like we talked about earlier is you can't rally talked about earlier is you can't rally talked about earlier is you can't rally a group of people around an idea. That a group of people around an idea. That a group of people around an idea. That idea is not going to happen. It's not idea is not going to happen. It's not idea is not going to happen. It's not going to get done. I think that's a going to get done. I think that's a going to get done. I think that's a vital skill that's under sold to people. vital skill that's under sold to people. vital skill that's under sold to people. I think you see this in education I think you see this in education I think you see this in education because so many people in education are because so many people in education are because so many people in education are just letting Chad GBT do all the work just letting Chad GBT do all the work just letting Chad GBT do all the work now and not using it to refine their now and not using it to refine their now and not using it to refine their ability to tell stories with words. And ability to tell stories with words. And ability to tell stories with words. And I think that's just um yeah, it's going I think that's just um yeah, it's going I think that's just um yeah, it's going to create problems for people at some to create problems for people at some to create problems for people at some point.

point. point. >> Yeah. And telling stories with with >> Yeah. And telling stories with with >> Yeah. And telling stories with with words boils down to organizing thought. words boils down to organizing thought. words boils down to organizing thought. >> Yeah, it is dangerous if people lean on >> Yeah, it is dangerous if people lean on >> Yeah, it is dangerous if people lean on it too hard. I I do wonder. I love it too hard. I I do wonder. I love it too hard. I I do wonder. I love living in this era. We we're in I love living in this era. We we're in I love living in this era. We we're in I love science fiction and we're now in it. We science fiction and we're now in it. We science fiction and we're now in it. We just haven't realized. We have just haven't realized. We have just haven't realized. We have self-driving cars. We have AI. AI is self-driving cars. We have AI. AI is self-driving cars. We have AI. AI is here. My god. here. My god. here. My god. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> We got a guy trying to fly to Mars. >> We got a guy trying to fly to Mars. >> We got a guy trying to fly to Mars. Whether or not he'll get there, LM have Whether or not he'll get there, LM have Whether or not he'll get there, LM have finally created the translation layer finally created the translation layer finally created the translation layer for language for robotics, right? That for language for robotics, right? That for language for robotics, right? That was one of the biggest problems robotics was one of the biggest problems robotics was one of the biggest problems robotics suffered from was an interface problem. suffered from was an interface problem. suffered from was an interface problem. If you can't speak to it, you can't put If you can't speak to it, you can't put If you can't speak to it, you can't put it in people's homes. And so, it's just it in people's homes. And so, it's just it in people's homes. And so, it's just sort of dead on arrival, right? Because sort of dead on arrival, right? Because sort of dead on arrival, right? Because how are you going to tell the object how are you going to tell the object how are you going to tell the object what to do? That's now a solved problem. what to do? That's now a solved problem. what to do? That's now a solved problem. You're right. The SC we're like in the You're right. The SC we're like in the You're right. The SC we're like in the middle of the beginning of the science middle of the beginning of the science middle of the beginning of the science fiction tornado. 2030 is going to be fiction tornado. 2030 is going to be fiction tornado. 2030 is going to be kind of wild, right? kind of wild, right? kind of wild, right? >> I hope I live long enough to to see like >> I hope I live long enough to to see like >> I hope I live long enough to to see like the next 50 years. the next 50 years. the next 50 years. >> Agreed. Although, you shouldn't be >> Agreed. Although, you shouldn't be >> Agreed. Although, you shouldn't be questioning whether you live long enough questioning whether you live long enough questioning whether you live long enough at your age. You're going to be just at your age. You're going to be just at your age. You're going to be just fine. You're going to see all of it.

fine. You're going to see all of it. fine. You're going to see all of it. >> I'm older than I look, man. >> I'm older than I look, man. >> I'm older than I look, man. >> Well, do you know what? I'm uh I'm >> Well, do you know what? I'm uh I'm >> Well, do you know what? I'm uh I'm playing a safer game now. I'm I'm not playing a safer game now. I'm I'm not playing a safer game now. I'm I'm not going to dangerous places so much, so going to dangerous places so much, so going to dangerous places so much, so it's on my side. Yeah, it's on my side. Yeah, it's on my side. Yeah, >> I have to admit after we reached out, >> I have to admit after we reached out, >> I have to admit after we reached out, one of the things that I did was uh I one of the things that I did was uh I one of the things that I did was uh I was like, you know what I'll do? I'll was like, you know what I'll do? I'll was like, you know what I'll do? I'll just look at the news, figure out where just look at the news, figure out where just look at the news, figure out where all the action's happening, and I'll all the action's happening, and I'll all the action's happening, and I'll just go there. The pictures will just just go there. The pictures will just just go there. The pictures will just take themselves essentially. And then I take themselves essentially. And then I take themselves essentially. And then I was like, oh, wait a minute. I have a was like, oh, wait a minute. I have a was like, oh, wait a minute. I have a high tolerance for risk, but not putting high tolerance for risk, but not putting high tolerance for risk, but not putting my family's and my companies like I my family's and my companies like I my family's and my companies like I can't put them at risk. I can put myself can't put them at risk. I can put myself can't put them at risk. I can put myself at risk to a certain extent, but when it at risk to a certain extent, but when it at risk to a certain extent, but when it starts to risk other things. So, I very starts to risk other things. So, I very starts to risk other things. So, I very quickly cretailed that behavior of like, quickly cretailed that behavior of like, quickly cretailed that behavior of like, "Yeah, let me Yeah, there's chaos in DC. "Yeah, let me Yeah, there's chaos in DC. "Yeah, let me Yeah, there's chaos in DC. Let me fly to DC. I mean, that's that Let me fly to DC. I mean, that's that Let me fly to DC. I mean, that's that makes a lot like I Yeah, I I I decided makes a lot like I Yeah, I I I decided makes a lot like I Yeah, I I I decided not to follow that." not to follow that." not to follow that." >> Oh, man. Yeah. I'm very grateful for my >> Oh, man. Yeah. I'm very grateful for my >> Oh, man. Yeah. I'm very grateful for my family for letting me do that stuff. I family for letting me do that stuff. I family for letting me do that stuff. I feel so guilty. My god, the I put feel so guilty. My god, the I put feel so guilty. My god, the I put them through. Blessed them all. They them through. Blessed them all. They them through. Blessed them all. They shouldn't have named me Spike, shouldn't have named me Spike, shouldn't have named me Spike, >> right? Yeah. I mean, you were >> right? Yeah. I mean, you were >> right? Yeah. I mean, you were >> had to live up to it. >> had to live up to it. >> had to live up to it. >> You were going to be a troublemaker from >> You were going to be a troublemaker from >> You were going to be a troublemaker from the time you came out, right? Did you um the time you came out, right? Did you um the time you came out, right? Did you um when on the on your way up with your when on the on your way up with your when on the on your way up with your building companies without that safety building companies without that safety building companies without that safety net, was there a were your family net, was there a were your family net, was there a were your family worried ever?

worried ever? worried ever? >> I mean probably >> I mean probably >> I mean probably I Yeah, of course they were. The I Yeah, of course they were. The I Yeah, of course they were. The question is like did it ever reach a question is like did it ever reach a question is like did it ever reach a point where they felt they needed to point where they felt they needed to point where they felt they needed to communicate about it? No. I think I've communicate about it? No. I think I've communicate about it? No. I think I've done a good enough job of managing the done a good enough job of managing the done a good enough job of managing the downside risk of doing what I do to make downside risk of doing what I do to make downside risk of doing what I do to make that less of an impact on my family. that less of an impact on my family. that less of an impact on my family. That's how I chose to manage it and That's how I chose to manage it and That's how I chose to manage it and that's worked out fairly well. that's worked out fairly well. that's worked out fairly well. >> Yeah. Well done. Well, that takes skill >> Yeah. Well done. Well, that takes skill >> Yeah. Well done. Well, that takes skill though because if you didn't manage the though because if you didn't manage the though because if you didn't manage the downside well enough, downside well enough, downside well enough, >> you could have run out of money and you >> you could have run out of money and you >> you could have run out of money and you know that's awful. know that's awful. know that's awful. >> Yes. No, I mean I did that like I took >> Yes. No, I mean I did that like I took >> Yes. No, I mean I did that like I took the payoff from my first success to the payoff from my first success to the payoff from my first success to bankroll my working for free for almost bankroll my working for free for almost bankroll my working for free for almost a year to start the next company and a year to start the next company and a year to start the next company and subsequently watched that get completely subsequently watched that get completely subsequently watched that get completely wiped out and then had to completely wiped out and then had to completely wiped out and then had to completely start all over again 10 years after the start all over again 10 years after the start all over again 10 years after the sort of first foray into software. So sort of first foray into software. So sort of first foray into software. So yeah, I know like but that's part of the yeah, I know like but that's part of the yeah, I know like but that's part of the game. If you're not willing to invest in game. If you're not willing to invest in game. If you're not willing to invest in the idea, then you're probably not right the idea, then you're probably not right the idea, then you're probably not right about it. when the idea is right, you about it. when the idea is right, you about it. when the idea is right, you know, and you're like, "Yeah, okay, it's know, and you're like, "Yeah, okay, it's know, and you're like, "Yeah, okay, it's worth this." Thought I managed it better worth this." Thought I managed it better worth this." Thought I managed it better would have been a really amazing would have been a really amazing would have been a really amazing situation for me. So, situation for me. So, situation for me. So, >> in all, I think um unless you've tried >> in all, I think um unless you've tried >> in all, I think um unless you've tried it, you don't know how difficult it is.

it, you don't know how difficult it is. it, you don't know how difficult it is. I am a novice in comparison, and it's I am a novice in comparison, and it's I am a novice in comparison, and it's hard as hell. So, you've done a amazing hard as hell. So, you've done a amazing hard as hell. So, you've done a amazing job. job. job. >> I'm a tactile learner, so for me, I just >> I'm a tactile learner, so for me, I just >> I'm a tactile learner, so for me, I just have to do things. I just have to jump have to do things. I just have to jump have to do things. I just have to jump in and try it and then fail at it and in and try it and then fail at it and in and try it and then fail at it and then figure out why I failed at it and then figure out why I failed at it and then figure out why I failed at it and then correct that next time. And it's then correct that next time. And it's then correct that next time. And it's probably a very slow way to learn, but probably a very slow way to learn, but probably a very slow way to learn, but it it it works for me and it keeps me it it it works for me and it keeps me it it it works for me and it keeps me busy. busy. busy. >> It's the only way to learn. If you don't >> It's the only way to learn. If you don't >> It's the only way to learn. If you don't fail, you don't know. fail, you don't know. fail, you don't know. >> You haven't pushed it far enough. Yeah, >> You haven't pushed it far enough. Yeah, >> You haven't pushed it far enough. Yeah, exactly. Who wants to not be successful exactly. Who wants to not be successful exactly. Who wants to not be successful and know they left they left energy in and know they left they left energy in and know they left they left energy in the bag? You know, like, oh, if only I the bag? You know, like, oh, if only I the bag? You know, like, oh, if only I had tried harder, I would have had tried harder, I would have had tried harder, I would have succeeded. Like, you don't want to say succeeded. Like, you don't want to say succeeded. Like, you don't want to say that. that. that. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> You didn't really commit. >> You didn't really commit. >> You didn't really commit. >> Yeah. If you were on your deathbed and >> Yeah. If you were on your deathbed and >> Yeah. If you were on your deathbed and and you and you wondered, "Oh, I wonder and you and you wondered, "Oh, I wonder and you and you wondered, "Oh, I wonder if I could have been a millionaire." You if I could have been a millionaire." You if I could have been a millionaire." You know what I mean? know what I mean? know what I mean? >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. I definitely no regrets. Thanks so >> Yeah. I definitely no regrets. Thanks so >> Yeah. I definitely no regrets. Thanks so much. much. much. >> Agreed. >> Agreed. >> Agreed. >> Listen, man. This was fun. I've really >> Listen, man. This was fun. I've really >> Listen, man. This was fun. I've really enjoyed it. It was great to catch up. Um enjoyed it. It was great to catch up. Um enjoyed it. It was great to catch up. Um I think there's some great things that I think there's some great things that I think there's some great things that came out of this discussion that'll help came out of this discussion that'll help came out of this discussion that'll help people in how they think about this work people in how they think about this work people in how they think about this work and how they think about growing their and how they think about growing their and how they think about growing their businesses of any kind. And I think also businesses of any kind. And I think also businesses of any kind. And I think also if you're if you live in the software if you're if you live in the software if you're if you live in the software universe or you live in the consulting universe or you live in the consulting universe or you live in the consulting universe, I think there's a ton of value universe, I think there's a ton of value universe, I think there's a ton of value that in finding out that a successful that in finding out that a successful that in finding out that a successful photojournalist has to do all the same photojournalist has to do all the same photojournalist has to do all the same stuff. You've you've got to do the stuff. You've you've got to do the stuff. You've you've got to do the outreach and it can be successful when outreach and it can be successful when outreach and it can be successful when you find the right way to do it for your you find the right way to do it for your you find the right way to do it for your space. You just kind of got to grind at space. You just kind of got to grind at space. You just kind of got to grind at it and then keep learning and keep

it and then keep learning and keep it and then keep learning and keep listening and not over complicate listening and not over complicate listening and not over complicate things. I think there's a lot of really things. I think there's a lot of really things. I think there's a lot of really great advice in here. So, I really great advice in here. So, I really great advice in here. So, I really appreciate you being willing to share appreciate you being willing to share appreciate you being willing to share that. that. that. >> Thanks, man. Yeah, it's those those >> Thanks, man. Yeah, it's those those >> Thanks, man. Yeah, it's those those fundamentals transcend industry, don't fundamentals transcend industry, don't fundamentals transcend industry, don't they? And also, the thing that came they? And also, the thing that came they? And also, the thing that came across is if you want it bad enough, you across is if you want it bad enough, you across is if you want it bad enough, you got to go get it cuz no one's going to got to go get it cuz no one's going to got to go get it cuz no one's going to get it for you. Same as told outreach, get it for you. Same as told outreach, get it for you. Same as told outreach, they're not going to ask you to send they're not going to ask you to send they're not going to ask you to send them an email. You just got to do it. them an email. You just got to do it. them an email. You just got to do it. >> Oh, then we aren't all spiked where the >> Oh, then we aren't all spiked where the >> Oh, then we aren't all spiked where the cold emails we get are people offering cold emails we get are people offering cold emails we get are people offering us jobs. That doesn't uh that doesn't us jobs. That doesn't uh that doesn't us jobs. That doesn't uh that doesn't exist. >> Few and far between, mate. for you and >> Few and far between, mate. for you and far between. far between. far between. >> Good luck between now and the end of the >> Good luck between now and the end of the >> Good luck between now and the end of the year with your with your filming work. year with your with your filming work. year with your with your filming work. Can't wait to hear more about it. And uh Can't wait to hear more about it. And uh Can't wait to hear more about it. And uh we'll we'll check out Critical in the we'll we'll check out Critical in the we'll we'll check out Critical in the meantime, James and I. And yeah, any any meantime, James and I. And yeah, any any meantime, James and I. And yeah, any any parting parting words of wisdom? parting parting words of wisdom? parting parting words of wisdom? >> Try as hard as you can. >> Try as hard as you can. >> Try as hard as you can. >> Fair enough. I can't disagree with that. >> Fair enough. I can't disagree with that. >> Fair enough. I can't disagree with that. >> Yeah, that's simple, isn't it? Thanks >> Yeah, that's simple, isn't it? Thanks >> Yeah, that's simple, isn't it? Thanks for chatting with me, mate. It's been for chatting with me, mate. It's been for chatting with me, mate. It's been really nice hanging out with you guys. really nice hanging out with you guys. really nice hanging out with you guys. Appreciate it. Appreciate it. Appreciate it. >> Once again, thanks to Spike Johnson for >> Once again, thanks to Spike Johnson for >> Once again, thanks to Spike Johnson for joining today's episode of Outf Fox. If joining today's episode of Outf Fox. If joining today's episode of Outf Fox. If you liked what you heard, please like, you liked what you heard, please like, you liked what you heard, please like, subscribe, and explore even more of the subscribe, and explore even more of the subscribe, and explore even more of the Outfobs community by visiting Outfobs community by visiting Outfobs community by visiting www.outfobsted.hunter.io.

Here was Spy Johnson. That was Matt Here was Spy Johnson. That was Matt Tharp. And we're out of time.