Outfoxed Podcast by Hunter.io  | EP 12 Michelle Brammer " Find More of your Best Customers"

This is Outfoxed, the podcast brought to This is Outfoxed, the podcast brought to you by hunter.io, the trusted B2B lead you by hunter.io, the trusted B2B lead you by hunter.io, the trusted B2B lead generation platform built for every generation platform built for every generation platform built for every professional. Here are the no playbooks, professional. Here are the no playbooks, professional. Here are the no playbooks, no posturing, and no egos. This is the no posturing, and no egos. This is the no posturing, and no egos. This is the show for the builders and not the show for the builders and not the show for the builders and not the theorists. Let's get into it. Well, theorists. Let's get into it. Well, theorists. Let's get into it. Well, welcome, uh, Michelle. Welcome to welcome, uh, Michelle. Welcome to welcome, uh, Michelle. Welcome to Outfoxed. It's, uh, exciting to have you Outfoxed. It's, uh, exciting to have you Outfoxed. It's, uh, exciting to have you here. I'm looking forward to the here. I'm looking forward to the here. I'm looking forward to the conversation. conversation. conversation. Um, I know James is as well. Um, I know James is as well. Um, I know James is as well. So, um, So, um, So, um, if you don't mind, uh, introduce if you don't mind, uh, introduce if you don't mind, uh, introduce yourself to our audience. Yeah, my name yourself to our audience. Yeah, my name yourself to our audience. Yeah, my name is Michelle I am the director of growth is Michelle I am the director of growth is Michelle I am the director of growth marketing at Lingo, and we are a digital marketing at Lingo, and we are a digital marketing at Lingo, and we are a digital asset management and brand guidelines asset management and brand guidelines asset management and brand guidelines platform. Uh, I have been in, uh, platform. Uh, I have been in, uh, platform. Uh, I have been in, uh, various marketing roles in the SaaS various marketing roles in the SaaS various marketing roles in the SaaS space for a little over 20 years. Uh, space for a little over 20 years. Uh, space for a little over 20 years. Uh, did a little bit of work as well in, uh, did a little bit of work as well in, uh, did a little bit of work as well in, uh, restaurant and CPG too. A little over 20 restaurant and CPG too. A little over 20 restaurant and CPG too. A little over 20 years puts you at the beginning. years puts you at the beginning. years puts you at the beginning. >> years. That's like the genesis of SaaS. >> years. That's like the genesis of SaaS. >> years. That's like the genesis of SaaS. I've been able to see a lot over these I've been able to see a lot over these I've been able to see a lot over these years and a lot of scars from it, too. years and a lot of scars from it, too. years and a lot of scars from it, too. >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> That's the best part, right? You get to >> That's the best part, right? You get to >> That's the best part, right? You get to >> It is. It is. Yeah, like I I have >> It is. It is. Yeah, like I I have >> It is. It is. Yeah, like I I have >> character.

>> character. >> character. I have all the gray hair and I'm like, I have all the gray hair and I'm like, I have all the gray hair and I'm like, you know, but every one of those I've you know, but every one of those I've you know, but every one of those I've earned. I feel okay with that. earned. I feel okay with that. earned. I feel okay with that. Yep. So, tell me a little bit more about Yep. So, tell me a little bit more about Yep. So, tell me a little bit more about what growth marketing looks like at what growth marketing looks like at what growth marketing looks like at Lingo right now. So, I am considered a Lingo right now. So, I am considered a Lingo right now. So, I am considered a growth marketer, but I am also the only growth marketer, but I am also the only growth marketer, but I am also the only marketer at Lingo. In fact, I'm marketer marketer at Lingo. In fact, I'm marketer marketer at Lingo. In fact, I'm marketer number one. number one. number one. Um, and, uh, Lingo has been able to grow Um, and, uh, Lingo has been able to grow Um, and, uh, Lingo has been able to grow for many years on the back of the Noun for many years on the back of the Noun for many years on the back of the Noun Project, which is our parent company. Project, which is our parent company. Project, which is our parent company. Um, they are iconography, photography, Um, they are iconography, photography, Um, they are iconography, photography, um, um, um, uh, specialty specifically for uh, specialty specifically for uh, specialty specifically for designers. So, when you're looking for designers. So, when you're looking for designers. So, when you're looking for icons and things like that. And Lingo icons and things like that. And Lingo icons and things like that. And Lingo kind of came from, um, the genesis of kind of came from, um, the genesis of kind of came from, um, the genesis of well, we have all these icons, we have well, we have all these icons, we have well, we have all these icons, we have all these photos, we need somewhere to all these photos, we need somewhere to all these photos, we need somewhere to store them. So, why don't we just build store them. So, why don't we just build store them. So, why don't we just build an asset management solution? And as we an asset management solution? And as we an asset management solution? And as we did that, did that, did that, um, um, um, it we found that it we found that it we found that a lot of folks were using us in very a lot of folks were using us in very a lot of folks were using us in very different ways and when they brought me different ways and when they brought me different ways and when they brought me on as a growth marketer it was we've on as a growth marketer it was we've on as a growth marketer it was we've kind of burned out as far as we can go kind of burned out as far as we can go kind of burned out as far as we can go with the the noun project side of things with the the noun project side of things with the the noun project side of things and how do we actually start to separate and how do we actually start to separate and how do we actually start to separate ourselves um in the asset management ourselves um in the asset management ourselves um in the asset management space and start to grow into specific space and start to grow into specific space and start to grow into specific niches at which point they said hey we niches at which point they said hey we niches at which point they said hey we should probably bring somebody in that should probably bring somebody in that should probably bring somebody in that knows a little bit more about what knows a little bit more about what knows a little bit more about what they're doing from a marketing they're doing from a marketing they're doing from a marketing perspective. So my day-to-day as much as perspective. So my day-to-day as much as perspective. So my day-to-day as much as I have the growth marketing title I I have the growth marketing title I I have the growth marketing title I literally do everything from content to literally do everything from content to literally do everything from content to growth marketing to lead generation to growth marketing to lead generation to growth marketing to lead generation to you know even just basic research you know even just basic research you know even just basic research projects for marketing as well.

projects for marketing as well. projects for marketing as well. I imagine that's both I imagine that's both I imagine that's both kind of awesome and empowering in one kind of awesome and empowering in one kind of awesome and empowering in one moment or maybe one day and then the moment or maybe one day and then the moment or maybe one day and then the next next next you sort of want to pull your hair out. you sort of want to pull your hair out. you sort of want to pull your hair out. What's it like being like a solo What's it like being like a solo What's it like being like a solo marketing department right now? Uh marketing department right now? Uh marketing department right now? Uh that's a thousand percent accurate on that's a thousand percent accurate on that's a thousand percent accurate on how you'd like to describe that. how you'd like to describe that. how you'd like to describe that. Um you know some days are really Um you know some days are really Um you know some days are really interesting because a lot of where we're interesting because a lot of where we're interesting because a lot of where we're focusing our attention right now is in a focusing our attention right now is in a focusing our attention right now is in a space that I have not traditionally space that I have not traditionally space that I have not traditionally worked in before and that's cool cuz I worked in before and that's cool cuz I worked in before and that's cool cuz I love to learn new things and I like to love to learn new things and I like to love to learn new things and I like to do new things. I enjoy the growth do new things. I enjoy the growth do new things. I enjoy the growth marketing side of the business but I marketing side of the business but I marketing side of the business but I also enjoy kind of connecting the pieces also enjoy kind of connecting the pieces also enjoy kind of connecting the pieces together. So building the foundation up together. So building the foundation up together. So building the foundation up that you kind of need when you first that you kind of need when you first that you kind of need when you first launch a marketing department and you're launch a marketing department and you're launch a marketing department and you're you're figuring out like something as you're figuring out like something as you're figuring out like something as simple as oh what CRM should we go with? simple as oh what CRM should we go with? simple as oh what CRM should we go with? Um you know I enjoy that aspect of it Um you know I enjoy that aspect of it Um you know I enjoy that aspect of it but yeah it is a challenge because but yeah it is a challenge because but yeah it is a challenge because you're consistently you're consistently you're consistently juggling a lot of priorities and juggling a lot of priorities and juggling a lot of priorities and sometimes you know the priority for lead sometimes you know the priority for lead sometimes you know the priority for lead gen should take precedence over maybe gen should take precedence over maybe gen should take precedence over maybe recording a podcast but you know at the recording a podcast but you know at the recording a podcast but you know at the end of the day it could pay off end of the day it could pay off end of the day it could pay off dividends down the line as well. Right.

dividends down the line as well. Right. dividends down the line as well. Right. Right. Well we appreciate you cutting Right. Well we appreciate you cutting Right. Well we appreciate you cutting into your growth time for this. That's into your growth time for this. That's into your growth time for this. That's great. As you probably know I think great. As you probably know I think great. As you probably know I think James has mentioned it you know we do a James has mentioned it you know we do a James has mentioned it you know we do a lot of primary research to drive both lot of primary research to drive both lot of primary research to drive both product direction but also our product direction but also our product direction but also our marketing. marketing. marketing. Um you know is we felt in the market was Um you know is we felt in the market was Um you know is we felt in the market was missing. There's a lot of missing. There's a lot of missing. There's a lot of what I'll call kind of what I'll call kind of what I'll call kind of anecdotal best practices about outreach anecdotal best practices about outreach anecdotal best practices about outreach and lead gen and and this part of of of and lead gen and and this part of of of and lead gen and and this part of of of the go-to-market stack, the go-to-market stack, the go-to-market stack, but not a lot of like hard evidence. Um, but not a lot of like hard evidence. Um, but not a lot of like hard evidence. Um, and I think, you know, there's good and and I think, you know, there's good and and I think, you know, there's good and bad reasons for that. But we've been bad reasons for that. But we've been bad reasons for that. But we've been filling it, um, filling that gap. We filling it, um, filling that gap. We filling it, um, filling that gap. We just dropped the the most recent just dropped the the most recent just dropped the the most recent benchmark. benchmark. benchmark. One thing that came up a lot is One thing that came up a lot is One thing that came up a lot is personalization. And we know that this personalization. And we know that this personalization. And we know that this has been a topic for what feels like has been a topic for what feels like has been a topic for what feels like probably as long as you and I've been in probably as long as you and I've been in probably as long as you and I've been in software. Um, [laughter] software. Um, [laughter] software. Um, [laughter] but especially when we surveyed the but especially when we surveyed the but especially when we surveyed the decision-makers themselves and we were decision-makers themselves and we were decision-makers themselves and we were asking about what are the things that asking about what are the things that asking about what are the things that make an email stand out, what we saw was make an email stand out, what we saw was make an email stand out, what we saw was that personalization in the email, you that personalization in the email, you that personalization in the email, you know, increases it at a minimum by like know, increases it at a minimum by like know, increases it at a minimum by like 25 to 50%. We've seen that there's a 25 to 50%. We've seen that there's a 25 to 50%. We've seen that there's a direct correlation between list size and direct correlation between list size and direct correlation between list size and personalization. The smaller the list, personalization. The smaller the list, personalization. The smaller the list, the better the personalization gets to the better the personalization gets to the better the personalization gets to be. I'm curious what your experience has be. I'm curious what your experience has be. I'm curious what your experience has been with that. Can you talk a little been with that. Can you talk a little been with that. Can you talk a little bit about bit about bit about your experience trying to balance your experience trying to balance your experience trying to balance personalization and scale? Yeah. The So, personalization and scale? Yeah. The So, personalization and scale? Yeah. The So, there was definitely a point in time there was definitely a point in time there was definitely a point in time where personalization simply meant like, where personalization simply meant like, where personalization simply meant like, "Oh, let me pull in the city or let me "Oh, let me pull in the city or let me "Oh, let me pull in the city or let me pull in, you know, the college you went pull in, you know, the college you went pull in, you know, the college you went to," right? And we're we're we're past

to," right? And we're we're we're past to," right? And we're we're we're past those days. So, I think that that's, you those days. So, I think that that's, you those days. So, I think that that's, you know, right off the bat like the easy know, right off the bat like the easy know, right off the bat like the easy ones to say, "Okay, you're trying to ones to say, "Okay, you're trying to ones to say, "Okay, you're trying to take the easy way out." And now with AI, take the easy way out." And now with AI, take the easy way out." And now with AI, we have the ability to personalize our we have the ability to personalize our we have the ability to personalize our outreach outreach outreach in such a way that it can be incredibly in such a way that it can be incredibly in such a way that it can be incredibly impactful impactful impactful if it's done correctly. And I think that if it's done correctly. And I think that if it's done correctly. And I think that as a marketer, you're consistently as a marketer, you're consistently as a marketer, you're consistently balancing the scale behind, you know, if balancing the scale behind, you know, if balancing the scale behind, you know, if we're being honest here, most folks are we're being honest here, most folks are we're being honest here, most folks are like, "We need leads. We need volume. We like, "We need leads. We need volume. We like, "We need leads. We need volume. We need leads. We need volume," right? So, need leads. We need volume," right? So, need leads. We need volume," right? So, you're consistently pushing for more you're consistently pushing for more you're consistently pushing for more leads and more volume, but sometimes leads and more volume, but sometimes leads and more volume, but sometimes when you do that, it's because you're when you do that, it's because you're when you do that, it's because you're not spending as much time on the not spending as much time on the not spending as much time on the personalization, right? So, you're like, personalization, right? So, you're like, personalization, right? So, you're like, "Oh, this one kind of meet matches my "Oh, this one kind of meet matches my "Oh, this one kind of meet matches my ICP. I'm going to go ahead and add them ICP. I'm going to go ahead and add them ICP. I'm going to go ahead and add them to this cohort or this group to this cohort or this group to this cohort or this group that I want to go ahead and get these that I want to go ahead and get these that I want to go ahead and get these emails sent out to." And in reality, emails sent out to." And in reality, emails sent out to." And in reality, they probably needed to be in a totally they probably needed to be in a totally they probably needed to be in a totally separate cohort all by themselves. So, separate cohort all by themselves. So, separate cohort all by themselves. So, when we're starting to really look at, when we're starting to really look at, when we're starting to really look at, you know, how do we balance the size of you know, how do we balance the size of you know, how do we balance the size of our list versus how personalized it can our list versus how personalized it can our list versus how personalized it can get, get, get, we get a little sloppy sometimes, we get a little sloppy sometimes, we get a little sloppy sometimes, especially because marketing teams are especially because marketing teams are especially because marketing teams are getting smaller. Uh we have more demand getting smaller. Uh we have more demand getting smaller. Uh we have more demand on more demands on us than we've ever on more demands on us than we've ever on more demands on us than we've ever had before. And it's just I mean, I hate had before. And it's just I mean, I hate had before. And it's just I mean, I hate to say it, it's easier to say it, it's easier to say it, it's easier to send a okay, maybe this will resonate to send a okay, maybe this will resonate to send a okay, maybe this will resonate with some people email than a, you know, with some people email than a, you know, with some people email than a, you know, hey, I'm going to go ahead and send a hey, I'm going to go ahead and send a hey, I'm going to go ahead and send a super targeted email towards 10 super targeted email towards 10 super targeted email towards 10 different people. And those 10 different different people. And those 10 different different people. And those 10 different people may resonate more, but it doesn't people may resonate more, but it doesn't people may resonate more, but it doesn't sound super impressive when you're sound super impressive when you're sound super impressive when you're talking to a member of leadership and

talking to a member of leadership and talking to a member of leadership and they're saying, "Hey, how many How many they're saying, "Hey, how many How many they're saying, "Hey, how many How many of these emails did you get sent last of these emails did you get sent last of these emails did you get sent last week?" Oh, 10. week?" Oh, 10. week?" Oh, 10. Right. Right. Right. >> 10 10 10 10 does not move a needle. >> 10 10 10 10 does not move a needle. >> 10 10 10 10 does not move a needle. 10 can move a needle if it's the right 10 can move a needle if it's the right 10 can move a needle if it's the right message with the right person at the message with the right person at the message with the right person at the right time. And I think right now we're right time. And I think right now we're right time. And I think right now we're just in this weird spot where just in this weird spot where just in this weird spot where volume has become so much easier because volume has become so much easier because volume has become so much easier because of how much AI can handle that we're of how much AI can handle that we're of how much AI can handle that we're walking away from the personalization walking away from the personalization walking away from the personalization side of it. And at least for me and side of it. And at least for me and side of it. And at least for me and Lingo, we've kind of gone the opposite Lingo, we've kind of gone the opposite Lingo, we've kind of gone the opposite way where we're going hyper personalized way where we're going hyper personalized way where we're going hyper personalized and skewing away from mass targeting. and skewing away from mass targeting. and skewing away from mass targeting. I mean, everything in our research seems I mean, everything in our research seems I mean, everything in our research seems to support what you're saying, which is to support what you're saying, which is to support what you're saying, which is great. Um great. Um great. Um >> [clears throat] >> [clears throat] >> [clears throat] >> we see that smaller list sizes, more >> we see that smaller list sizes, more >> we see that smaller list sizes, more personalization, better targeting. But personalization, better targeting. But personalization, better targeting. But one of the things that I hear a lot on one of the things that I hear a lot on one of the things that I hear a lot on webinars or even just sometimes webinars or even just sometimes webinars or even just sometimes conversations with customers or conversations with customers or conversations with customers or prospects, prospects, prospects, I bring this up uh that being more I bring this up uh that being more I bring this up uh that being more targeted, being more personal really targeted, being more personal really targeted, being more personal really starts with the list. starts with the list. starts with the list. And honestly, what I've learned is like And honestly, what I've learned is like And honestly, what I've learned is like I don't think there's a lot of really I don't think there's a lot of really I don't think there's a lot of really well-established well-established well-established understanding like like if I wanted to understanding like like if I wanted to understanding like like if I wanted to show you a template of a email, I could show you a template of a email, I could show you a template of a email, I could show you a million email templates. But show you a million email templates. But show you a million email templates. But if you said, "Well, great, but how do I if you said, "Well, great, but how do I if you said, "Well, great, but how do I do segmentation?" I feel like there just do segmentation?" I feel like there just do segmentation?" I feel like there just isn't the wealth of information out isn't the wealth of information out isn't the wealth of information out there about segmentation the way there there about segmentation the way there there about segmentation the way there is about is about is about things like an outreach example. How things like an outreach example. How things like an outreach example. How have you gone about that process have you gone about that process have you gone about that process because, you know, it sounds like you're because, you know, it sounds like you're because, you know, it sounds like you're very much aligned in terms of your point very much aligned in terms of your point very much aligned in terms of your point of view? Yeah, so I think for me in of view? Yeah, so I think for me in of view? Yeah, so I think for me in particular, I knew particular, I knew particular, I knew we're in the digital asset management

we're in the digital asset management we're in the digital asset management space, which is probably one of the more space, which is probably one of the more space, which is probably one of the more aggressive spaces in the market. We have aggressive spaces in the market. We have aggressive spaces in the market. We have 300-plus vendors in our space. And we're 300-plus vendors in our space. And we're 300-plus vendors in our space. And we're the little guy, right? So, we don't have the little guy, right? So, we don't have the little guy, right? So, we don't have the marketing team, we don't have the the marketing team, we don't have the the marketing team, we don't have the budget to go against, you know, even the budget to go against, you know, even the budget to go against, you know, even the top 10, top 20, who are consistently top 10, top 20, who are consistently top 10, top 20, who are consistently marketing towards the enterprise-level marketing towards the enterprise-level marketing towards the enterprise-level folks. So, we have to figure out, you folks. So, we have to figure out, you folks. So, we have to figure out, you know, what is the niche of our niche to know, what is the niche of our niche to know, what is the niche of our niche to make the largest impact where maybe make the largest impact where maybe make the largest impact where maybe those big guys simply can't make an those big guys simply can't make an those big guys simply can't make an impact. And for us, we found that impact. And for us, we found that impact. And for us, we found that incredibly validating because when I did incredibly validating because when I did incredibly validating because when I did come on board come on board come on board and I did our first analysis, there are and I did our first analysis, there are and I did our first analysis, there are some clear and present industries we do some clear and present industries we do some clear and present industries we do well in. Reality is, we can't target well in. Reality is, we can't target well in. Reality is, we can't target every single one of those industries. every single one of those industries. every single one of those industries. Not with our budget, not with our Not with our budget, not with our Not with our budget, not with our volume. So, let's take a look at who it volume. So, let's take a look at who it volume. So, let's take a look at who it is that we're doing really well with and is that we're doing really well with and is that we're doing really well with and why we're doing well with them. And oh why we're doing well with them. And oh why we're doing well with them. And oh by the way, are they sticking with us by the way, are they sticking with us by the way, are they sticking with us long-term? And what we ultimately came long-term? And what we ultimately came long-term? And what we ultimately came down to is retail was already a really down to is retail was already a really down to is retail was already a really good segment for us just because of the good segment for us just because of the good segment for us just because of the way we structure our asset management way we structure our asset management way we structure our asset management solution, but more specifically, solution, but more specifically, solution, but more specifically, cannabis. And cannabis is a very unique cannabis. And cannabis is a very unique cannabis. And cannabis is a very unique subset of retail that has very unique subset of retail that has very unique subset of retail that has very unique problems and issues that most industries problems and issues that most industries problems and issues that most industries will not have. And we've done really will not have. And we've done really will not have. And we've done really well just by word of mouth in that well just by word of mouth in that well just by word of mouth in that industry to begin with. So, by being industry to begin with. So, by being industry to begin with. So, by being able to take a little bit of time and a able to take a little bit of time and a able to take a little bit of time and a little bit of effort to understand the little bit of effort to understand the little bit of effort to understand the problems, understand the information problems, understand the information problems, understand the information that's being sent from point A to point

that's being sent from point A to point that's being sent from point A to point B between different dispensaries or B between different dispensaries or B between different dispensaries or different wholesale locations or different wholesale locations or different wholesale locations or different retailers. different retailers. different retailers. Why are they using asset management? Why are they using asset management? Why are they using asset management? What information are they communicating? What information are they communicating? What information are they communicating? That really helped us within honing in That really helped us within honing in That really helped us within honing in on what is the exact message we need to on what is the exact message we need to on what is the exact message we need to deliver to them deliver to them deliver to them that speaks to the outcome that they're that speaks to the outcome that they're that speaks to the outcome that they're looking to achieve. looking to achieve. looking to achieve. What problems do they consistently have? What problems do they consistently have? What problems do they consistently have? And And And what's come from that is we actually what's come from that is we actually what's come from that is we actually haven't seen where many enterprise folks haven't seen where many enterprise folks haven't seen where many enterprise folks can meet the needs because they're a can meet the needs because they're a can meet the needs because they're a little bit more little bit more little bit more I don't want to say overpriced, but I don't want to say overpriced, but I don't want to say overpriced, but they're way too expensive for what these they're way too expensive for what these they're way too expensive for what these smaller niche brands can handle. Right. smaller niche brands can handle. Right. smaller niche brands can handle. Right. And not that we're the cheapest out And not that we're the cheapest out And not that we're the cheapest out there, but with the way that we've there, but with the way that we've there, but with the way that we've segmented those folks along with the segmented those folks along with the segmented those folks along with the needs that are being met, it's a value needs that are being met, it's a value needs that are being met, it's a value add to them versus a distraction to add to them versus a distraction to add to them versus a distraction to them. Yeah, this makes a bunch of sense. them. Yeah, this makes a bunch of sense. them. Yeah, this makes a bunch of sense. I mean, what I heard you say is the I mean, what I heard you say is the I mean, what I heard you say is the first thing you did was a big ICP first thing you did was a big ICP first thing you did was a big ICP analysis project so that you could analysis project so that you could analysis project so that you could understand understand understand where where where you're going to have the best success.

you're going to have the best success. you're going to have the best success. And that makes a ton of sense not just And that makes a ton of sense not just And that makes a ton of sense not just for product, but for marketing for product, but for marketing for product, but for marketing perspective. Um, I'm curious, had you perspective. Um, I'm curious, had you perspective. Um, I'm curious, had you done that kind of exercise in past done that kind of exercise in past done that kind of exercise in past companies as well? companies as well? companies as well? I did. Yeah, so I knew coming in here, I did. Yeah, so I knew coming in here, I did. Yeah, so I knew coming in here, especially because there had not been especially because there had not been especially because there had not been marketing in the past and if I'm being marketing in the past and if I'm being marketing in the past and if I'm being honest, we didn't have honest, we didn't have honest, we didn't have robust tool sets. We didn't really have robust tool sets. We didn't really have robust tool sets. We didn't really have data. Our CRM was a glorified to-do data. Our CRM was a glorified to-do data. Our CRM was a glorified to-do list. Like we knew list. Like we knew list. Like we knew in order to figure out like who are we in order to figure out like who are we in order to figure out like who are we best marketed towards? Like we have to best marketed towards? Like we have to best marketed towards? Like we have to figure out, hey, who are our best figure out, hey, who are our best figure out, hey, who are our best customers to start with? customers to start with? customers to start with? And not our perceived best customers. And not our perceived best customers. And not our perceived best customers. Like we have some pretty large brand Like we have some pretty large brand Like we have some pretty large brand names in the space, but that's our names in the space, but that's our names in the space, but that's our perception, right? Like we see them perception, right? Like we see them perception, right? Like we see them because they're large, they're because they're large, they're because they're large, they're internationally known, but they're one internationally known, but they're one internationally known, but they're one small segment. Which ones are the ones small segment. Which ones are the ones small segment. Which ones are the ones that are consistently growing the that are consistently growing the that are consistently growing the business for us and very quickly had business for us and very quickly had business for us and very quickly had seen in a 24-month time frame that the seen in a 24-month time frame that the seen in a 24-month time frame that the cannabis space went from pretty much cannabis space went from pretty much cannabis space went from pretty much zero to number one zero to number one zero to number one in terms of folks that we are targeting in terms of folks that we are targeting in terms of folks that we are targeting and they're not high-volume clients so and they're not high-volume clients so and they're not high-volume clients so it's not something that you might think it's not something that you might think it's not something that you might think like oh yeah they're one of our top 10 like oh yeah they're one of our top 10 like oh yeah they're one of our top 10 in terms of like ARR each year no in terms of like ARR each year no in terms of like ARR each year no they're absolutely not not even close they're absolutely not not even close they're absolutely not not even close but when we take a look at the sheer but when we take a look at the sheer but when we take a look at the sheer quantity of them and their totality of quantity of them and their totality of quantity of them and their totality of ARR they absolutely are adopting our ARR they absolutely are adopting our ARR they absolutely are adopting our product because we're solving the need product because we're solving the need product because we're solving the need that they have but that all started with that they have but that all started with that they have but that all started with taking the time to do that initial taking the time to do that initial taking the time to do that initial research because otherwise I probably research because otherwise I probably research because otherwise I probably would have been led in a completely would have been led in a completely would have been led in a completely different direction just based on oh different direction just based on oh different direction just based on oh these are the logos we have and here's

these are the logos we have and here's these are the logos we have and here's the volume they bring us each year This the volume they bring us each year This the volume they bring us each year This happens oh man I we're going to go super happens oh man I we're going to go super happens oh man I we're going to go super tactical on this I love it um but this tactical on this I love it um but this tactical on this I love it um but this is one of the things that drives me is one of the things that drives me is one of the things that drives me crazy cuz a lot of times I'll see crazy cuz a lot of times I'll see crazy cuz a lot of times I'll see someone a team go through an ICP someone a team go through an ICP someone a team go through an ICP exercise and really what they're doing exercise and really what they're doing exercise and really what they're doing is oh just let me see the top 20 is oh just let me see the top 20 is oh just let me see the top 20 customers or oh here's some big logos customers or oh here's some big logos customers or oh here's some big logos let's just go find more like that but let's just go find more like that but let's just go find more like that but you're right it's not that it's about you're right it's not that it's about you're right it's not that it's about what is the population that creates the what is the population that creates the what is the population that creates the biggest opportunity for you and that biggest opportunity for you and that biggest opportunity for you and that opportunity is probably more about opportunity is probably more about opportunity is probably more about better product market fit than it is the better product market fit than it is the better product market fit than it is the market opportunity size and that's a market opportunity size and that's a market opportunity size and that's a really interesting point that I feel really interesting point that I feel really interesting point that I feel like not enough information is out there like not enough information is out there like not enough information is out there about No and I mean if you think about about No and I mean if you think about about No and I mean if you think about it we're in a space with 300 plus it we're in a space with 300 plus it we're in a space with 300 plus vendors vendors vendors surely somebody can solve for this right surely somebody can solve for this right surely somebody can solve for this right but but but clearly nobody really has if we've grown clearly nobody really has if we've grown clearly nobody really has if we've grown it that way just be a word of mouth it that way just be a word of mouth it that way just be a word of mouth there's not any one tool out there there's not any one tool out there there's not any one tool out there that's solving that problem there are that's solving that problem there are that's solving that problem there are multiple tools that probably any say multiple tools that probably any say multiple tools that probably any say computer software company can walk into computer software company can walk into computer software company can walk into and be successful with but the exact and be successful with but the exact and be successful with but the exact niche that we solve a problem for is one niche that we solve a problem for is one niche that we solve a problem for is one of the fastest growing niches out there of the fastest growing niches out there of the fastest growing niches out there they just don't have a solution that's they just don't have a solution that's they just don't have a solution that's currently serving their industry currently serving their industry currently serving their industry >> Right right yeah that's really >> Right right yeah that's really >> Right right yeah that's really interesting okay um I want to double interesting okay um I want to double interesting okay um I want to double click on the cannabis space for a second click on the cannabis space for a second click on the cannabis space for a second because it's going to lead to my next because it's going to lead to my next because it's going to lead to my next question. So, one of the challenges that question. So, one of the challenges that question. So, one of the challenges that I understand in that space that's unique I understand in that space that's unique I understand in that space that's unique is that is that is that not only is it regulated, I think that's not only is it regulated, I think that's not only is it regulated, I think that's the part a lot of people might the part a lot of people might the part a lot of people might understand, but you have um understand, but you have um understand, but you have um businesses that operate across multiple

businesses that operate across multiple businesses that operate across multiple states, but they have to do it in a states, but they have to do it in a states, but they have to do it in a unique way where a brand might be unique way where a brand might be unique way where a brand might be national, but the operating entities national, but the operating entities national, but the operating entities have to be more local within the state have to be more local within the state have to be more local within the state so that you're not essentially so that you're not essentially so that you're not essentially supporting cannabis marketing across supporting cannabis marketing across supporting cannabis marketing across state lines cuz that's I think where state lines cuz that's I think where state lines cuz that's I think where everything gets messy, right? So, everything gets messy, right? So, everything gets messy, right? So, because of that, you mentioned like because of that, you mentioned like because of that, you mentioned like having unique needs. So, you're right, having unique needs. So, you're right, having unique needs. So, you're right, they're kind of smaller, not as high they're kind of smaller, not as high they're kind of smaller, not as high volume, but they've got some really volume, but they've got some really volume, but they've got some really complex challenges. Um complex challenges. Um complex challenges. Um is that something where you're seeing, is that something where you're seeing, is that something where you're seeing, oh, because we found this like really oh, because we found this like really oh, because we found this like really unique challenge they face, that makes unique challenge they face, that makes unique challenge they face, that makes it easy for us to pivot to find the next it easy for us to pivot to find the next it easy for us to pivot to find the next segment, or does that actually make it segment, or does that actually make it segment, or does that actually make it harder for you? So, it's it's harder for you? So, it's it's harder for you? So, it's it's interesting because it has interesting because it has interesting because it has it has 100% it has 100% it has 100% sent our product team in a completely sent our product team in a completely sent our product team in a completely different direction this year. different direction this year. different direction this year. >> Okay. In terms of road map. >> Okay. In terms of road map. >> Okay. In terms of road map. We're solving the problem for the We're solving the problem for the We're solving the problem for the cannabis space knowing that it is like cannabis space knowing that it is like cannabis space knowing that it is like the most niche need, and then we can the most niche need, and then we can the most niche need, and then we can actually [clears throat] branch that out actually [clears throat] branch that out actually [clears throat] branch that out up into retail because retail has said up into retail because retail has said up into retail because retail has said they have this problem, too.

they have this problem, too. they have this problem, too. >> Okay, yeah. >> Okay, yeah. >> Okay, yeah. >> but not to the same degree of what >> but not to the same degree of what >> but not to the same degree of what cannabis does. So, case in point, yeah, cannabis does. So, case in point, yeah, cannabis does. So, case in point, yeah, you're pretty much spot on. You have you're pretty much spot on. You have you're pretty much spot on. You have single state operators where a brand may single state operators where a brand may single state operators where a brand may be in a single state. You have multiple be in a single state. You have multiple be in a single state. You have multiple state operators where they may have state operators where they may have state operators where they may have operations set up in multiple locations, operations set up in multiple locations, operations set up in multiple locations, but cannabis cannot cross state lines, but cannabis cannot cross state lines, but cannabis cannot cross state lines, and each state has their own rules and and each state has their own rules and and each state has their own rules and regulations. So, for example, I might regulations. So, for example, I might regulations. So, for example, I might have a um bag of gummies being sold in have a um bag of gummies being sold in have a um bag of gummies being sold in California. Their packaging can be California. Their packaging can be California. Their packaging can be bright, it can be beautiful, it could be bright, it can be beautiful, it could be bright, it can be beautiful, it could be really aesthetic on the shelf. really aesthetic on the shelf. really aesthetic on the shelf. Um you know, you could have it named Um you know, you could have it named Um you know, you could have it named called blueberry bliss, totally fine. called blueberry bliss, totally fine. called blueberry bliss, totally fine. That works in California. Uh, you may That works in California. Uh, you may That works in California. Uh, you may try to then grow. try to then grow. try to then grow. And you want to go into, say, Missouri. And you want to go into, say, Missouri. And you want to go into, say, Missouri. And in Missouri, [clears throat] And in Missouri, [clears throat] And in Missouri, [clears throat] you have to have plain packaging. I'm you have to have plain packaging. I'm you have to have plain packaging. I'm guessing Missouri is the counter to guessing Missouri is the counter to guessing Missouri is the counter to California, yeah. California, yeah. California, yeah. >> Yep, 100%. So, you can have plain >> Yep, 100%. So, you can have plain >> Yep, 100%. So, you can have plain packaging. So, all those beautiful packaging. So, all those beautiful packaging. So, all those beautiful colors, all that beautiful marketing colors, all that beautiful marketing colors, all that beautiful marketing material that your team has put together material that your team has put together material that your team has put together is now completely moot. You can keep the is now completely moot. You can keep the is now completely moot. You can keep the name.

name. name. But when you move into Connecticut, now But when you move into Connecticut, now But when you move into Connecticut, now you can have a white bag, black name, you can have a white bag, black name, you can have a white bag, black name, the name bliss is no longer accurate. the name bliss is no longer accurate. the name bliss is no longer accurate. You could call it like blueberry You could call it like blueberry You could call it like blueberry standard, right? So, it's the same standard, right? So, it's the same standard, right? So, it's the same product, three different bags, three product, three different bags, three product, three different bags, three different locations, three different different locations, three different different locations, three different needs. So, it's not like a Nike shoe, needs. So, it's not like a Nike shoe, needs. So, it's not like a Nike shoe, where that SKU is the same across the where that SKU is the same across the where that SKU is the same across the United States regardless of where you United States regardless of where you United States regardless of where you go. go. go. Depending on where you're selling that Depending on where you're selling that Depending on where you're selling that particular product, one single product particular product, one single product particular product, one single product can end up with multiple SKUs underneath can end up with multiple SKUs underneath can end up with multiple SKUs underneath it. it. it. Now, you start taking that, and it has Now, you start taking that, and it has Now, you start taking that, and it has to be sold in a point of sale system. to be sold in a point of sale system. to be sold in a point of sale system. So, when you walk into a dispensary, you So, when you walk into a dispensary, you So, when you walk into a dispensary, you you have a computer system that can kind you have a computer system that can kind you have a computer system that can kind of help you figure out like what it is of help you figure out like what it is of help you figure out like what it is you want to sell. But that becomes kind you want to sell. But that becomes kind you want to sell. But that becomes kind of a mapping nightmare of figuring out of a mapping nightmare of figuring out of a mapping nightmare of figuring out what product goes with what item, what product goes with what item, what product goes with what item, especially when they're named different especially when they're named different especially when they're named different things in different areas. And right things in different areas. And right things in different areas. And right now, the cannabis industry is doing that now, the cannabis industry is doing that now, the cannabis industry is doing that all by way, in many circumstances, by all by way, in many circumstances, by all by way, in many circumstances, by way of a Google spreadsheet. way of a Google spreadsheet. way of a Google spreadsheet. That's not sustainable long-term for That's not sustainable long-term for That's not sustainable long-term for them. To the point where many of these them. To the point where many of these them. To the point where many of these brands have told us like a big priority brands have told us like a big priority brands have told us like a big priority item for 2026 is focusing on menu item for 2026 is focusing on menu item for 2026 is focusing on menu remediation, so that menus are actually remediation, so that menus are actually remediation, so that menus are actually showing what products are available and showing what products are available and showing what products are available and when they're available, and it's not when they're available, and it's not when they're available, and it's not showing a stock out simply because showing a stock out simply because showing a stock out simply because you're matching a blueberry bliss to a you're matching a blueberry bliss to a you're matching a blueberry bliss to a blueberry standard, right? So, we know blueberry standard, right? So, we know blueberry standard, right? So, we know that that's an endpoint problem that that that's an endpoint problem that that that's an endpoint problem that they have. And ultimately, at the end of they have. And ultimately, at the end of they have. And ultimately, at the end of the day, those descriptions, those the day, those descriptions, those the day, those descriptions, those images that are all inside the menu, images that are all inside the menu, images that are all inside the menu, those are coming from us anyway, because those are coming from us anyway, because those are coming from us anyway, because they're using us to house all the they're using us to house all the they're using us to house all the descriptions, all the menus, all the

descriptions, all the menus, all the descriptions, all the menus, all the images. So, it's just a matter of how do images. So, it's just a matter of how do images. So, it's just a matter of how do we make that more efficient, not only we make that more efficient, not only we make that more efficient, not only for the brands to transfer data onto the for the brands to transfer data onto the for the brands to transfer data onto the point of sale systems, but then how else point of sale systems, but then how else point of sale systems, but then how else are they using our product to are they using our product to are they using our product to communicate maybe in-store education communicate maybe in-store education communicate maybe in-store education material to the budtenders or even using material to the budtenders or even using material to the budtenders or even using it for wholesale purposes in different it for wholesale purposes in different it for wholesale purposes in different states. They have a very unique need in states. They have a very unique need in states. They have a very unique need in the cannabis space, but has kind of the cannabis space, but has kind of the cannabis space, but has kind of driven our entire thought process on not driven our entire thought process on not driven our entire thought process on not only how we go to market, but what we're only how we go to market, but what we're only how we go to market, but what we're building to support their needs. That's building to support their needs. That's building to support their needs. That's super interesting. So, is the plan super interesting. So, is the plan super interesting. So, is the plan as far as you can share to continue to as far as you can share to continue to as far as you can share to continue to try to work and focus on that industry try to work and focus on that industry try to work and focus on that industry for a while before expanding or yeah, for a while before expanding or yeah, for a while before expanding or yeah, okay. Oh, yeah. Yeah, we're doubling okay. Oh, yeah. Yeah, we're doubling okay. Oh, yeah. Yeah, we're doubling down on pretty much all my efforts for down on pretty much all my efforts for down on pretty much all my efforts for at least the first half [snorts] of 2026 at least the first half [snorts] of 2026 at least the first half [snorts] of 2026 is focused on cannabis. is focused on cannabis. is focused on cannabis. I'll I'll tell you cuz this will be out I'll I'll tell you cuz this will be out I'll I'll tell you cuz this will be out by the time it goes live. We are by the time it goes live. We are by the time it goes live. We are launching a launching a launching a product information management system product information management system product information management system specifically for the cannabis space to specifically for the cannabis space to specifically for the cannabis space to kind of solve that entire Google Sheet kind of solve that entire Google Sheet kind of solve that entire Google Sheet issue going between multiple point of issue going between multiple point of issue going between multiple point of sale providers. So, sale providers. So, sale providers. So, we're really doubling down on the fact we're really doubling down on the fact we're really doubling down on the fact that we understand their needs and what that we understand their needs and what that we understand their needs and what it is they're trying to solve for and we it is they're trying to solve for and we it is they're trying to solve for and we know we sit firmly in the middle of that know we sit firmly in the middle of that know we sit firmly in the middle of that right now. Yeah, a PIM is such a right now. Yeah, a PIM is such a right now. Yeah, a PIM is such a desperately needed thing in the cannabis desperately needed thing in the cannabis desperately needed thing in the cannabis space. That's a really cool space. That's a really cool space. That's a really cool cool thing. That's great. Was there cool thing. That's great. Was there cool thing. That's great. Was there Okay, so think So, I'm let's say Okay, so think So, I'm let's say Okay, so think So, I'm let's say I'm the Michelle at another company and I'm the Michelle at another company and I'm the Michelle at another company and I am being tasked with as a solo person

I am being tasked with as a solo person I am being tasked with as a solo person here. How do I figure out how to here. How do I figure out how to here. How do I figure out how to They've given me some ICP data. I know I They've given me some ICP data. I know I They've given me some ICP data. I know I can run the analysis. I'm not worried can run the analysis. I'm not worried can run the analysis. I'm not worried about that, but I'm not entirely sure about that, but I'm not entirely sure about that, but I'm not entirely sure how do I avoid ending up how do I avoid ending up how do I avoid ending up not just chasing our top 20 customers in not just chasing our top 20 customers in not just chasing our top 20 customers in terms of volume or not just chasing the terms of volume or not just chasing the terms of volume or not just chasing the big logos on the sheet. What Was there a big logos on the sheet. What Was there a big logos on the sheet. What Was there a particular insight that stood out or a particular insight that stood out or a particular insight that stood out or a particular stage of the process that you particular stage of the process that you particular stage of the process that you used used used that allowed you to find cannabis? Yeah. that allowed you to find cannabis? Yeah. that allowed you to find cannabis? Yeah. Gosh, it pops up in a multi- to Gosh, it pops up in a multi- to Gosh, it pops up in a multi- to multitude areas. So, multitude areas. So, multitude areas. So, when I first did the ICP analysis, when I first did the ICP analysis, when I first did the ICP analysis, cannabis was already on there. cannabis was already on there. cannabis was already on there. But I I like I knew it was a big factor, But I I like I knew it was a big factor, But I I like I knew it was a big factor, but I didn't realize how much of a but I didn't realize how much of a but I didn't realize how much of a factor in terms of how do we focus our factor in terms of how do we focus our factor in terms of how do we focus our attention and growth moving forward attention and growth moving forward attention and growth moving forward until around the same time I was I was until around the same time I was I was until around the same time I was I was actually finishing that first ICP actually finishing that first ICP actually finishing that first ICP analysis, we were running Google analysis, we were running Google analysis, we were running Google advertising and in the digital asset advertising and in the digital asset advertising and in the digital asset management space, which hello management space, which hello management space, which hello [clears throat] keyword expensive, [clears throat] keyword expensive, [clears throat] keyword expensive, right? And we were not getting the right? And we were not getting the right? And we were not getting the volume and return we were hoping to get.

volume and return we were hoping to get. volume and return we were hoping to get. But again, you know, you're targeting But again, you know, you're targeting But again, you know, you're targeting some keywords that are generally fairly some keywords that are generally fairly some keywords that are generally fairly broad, and I was already thinking about broad, and I was already thinking about broad, and I was already thinking about like what is the better way for us to like what is the better way for us to like what is the better way for us to target something a little bit more target something a little bit more target something a little bit more niche, a little bit more specific. And niche, a little bit more specific. And niche, a little bit more specific. And uh I was using a tool. Um one of the uh I was using a tool. Um one of the uh I was using a tool. Um one of the beautiful things about the way that beautiful things about the way that beautiful things about the way that Lingo is set up is when folks are Lingo is set up is when folks are Lingo is set up is when folks are entering a Lingo portal or kit, right? entering a Lingo portal or kit, right? entering a Lingo portal or kit, right? They could be private, public, They could be private, public, They could be private, public, password-protected. Um we're able to see password-protected. Um we're able to see password-protected. Um we're able to see kind of who's coming in and out of kits kind of who's coming in and out of kits kind of who's coming in and out of kits and portals. And I was continuously and portals. And I was continuously and portals. And I was continuously seeing on my intent signal reports that seeing on my intent signal reports that seeing on my intent signal reports that folks are going in and out of these folks are going in and out of these folks are going in and out of these cannabis brands. cannabis brands. cannabis brands. But I didn't really understand the full But I didn't really understand the full But I didn't really understand the full scale of why they were going in and out scale of why they were going in and out scale of why they were going in and out of the brands. And two groups emerged. of the brands. And two groups emerged. of the brands. And two groups emerged. It was either other brands accessing It was either other brands accessing It was either other brands accessing another brand's kit to be able to pull another brand's kit to be able to pull another brand's kit to be able to pull assets, materials, etc. from like a assets, materials, etc. from like a assets, materials, etc. from like a wholesale perspective, or it was a wholesale perspective, or it was a wholesale perspective, or it was a point-of-sale provider, specifically point-of-sale provider, specifically point-of-sale provider, specifically their account managers, accessing their their account managers, accessing their their account managers, accessing their client spaces to pull the assets and client spaces to pull the assets and client spaces to pull the assets and descriptions to be present on the menus.

descriptions to be present on the menus. descriptions to be present on the menus. And those became two streams of people And those became two streams of people And those became two streams of people that were like, "Okay, well, they have that were like, "Okay, well, they have that were like, "Okay, well, they have different needs and they're using it in different needs and they're using it in different needs and they're using it in different ways." different ways." different ways." Okay, great. Let's go take a look at our Okay, great. Let's go take a look at our Okay, great. Let's go take a look at our client and understand folks keep coming client and understand folks keep coming client and understand folks keep coming into this Kifin Portal. Why? into this Kifin Portal. Why? into this Kifin Portal. Why? And once we had a sense of why they were And once we had a sense of why they were And once we had a sense of why they were coming in, we kept digging and coming in, we kept digging and coming in, we kept digging and understanding and doing interviews and understanding and doing interviews and understanding and doing interviews and starting to meet with our customers to starting to meet with our customers to starting to meet with our customers to say, "Hey, say, "Hey, say, "Hey, we are consistently seeing these brands we are consistently seeing these brands we are consistently seeing these brands going in and out of your Kifins Portals. going in and out of your Kifins Portals. going in and out of your Kifins Portals. Help me understand why that is." And Help me understand why that is." And Help me understand why that is." And then that's where we started to learn then that's where we started to learn then that's where we started to learn around how brands were using it from around how brands were using it from around how brands were using it from like a wholesale perspective to be able like a wholesale perspective to be able like a wholesale perspective to be able to sell their catalog into other spaces, to sell their catalog into other spaces, to sell their catalog into other spaces, but then also how they were using Lingo but then also how they were using Lingo but then also how they were using Lingo for not only education at the for not only education at the for not only education at the dispensaries, but also for point of sale dispensaries, but also for point of sale dispensaries, but also for point of sale materials as well. And once we started materials as well. And once we started materials as well. And once we started to understand that entire relationship to understand that entire relationship to understand that entire relationship of exactly who's accessing brand of exactly who's accessing brand of exactly who's accessing brand materials and for what reasons, that was materials and for what reasons, that was materials and for what reasons, that was kind of like that eureka moment to us of kind of like that eureka moment to us of kind of like that eureka moment to us of going, "Well, I don't have to try really going, "Well, I don't have to try really going, "Well, I don't have to try really hard to be looking at kind of vague hard to be looking at kind of vague hard to be looking at kind of vague intent signals around how people are intent signals around how people are intent signals around how people are using us.

using us. using us. These people are already using are These people are already using are These people are already using are already coming to our Kifins Portals to already coming to our Kifins Portals to already coming to our Kifins Portals to understand, "Hey, I need assets, I need understand, "Hey, I need assets, I need understand, "Hey, I need assets, I need uh descriptions, I need uh budtender uh descriptions, I need uh budtender uh descriptions, I need uh budtender materials, I need all this information materials, I need all this information materials, I need all this information for this particular brand. They're for this particular brand. They're for this particular brand. They're already brand aware of us. Whether they already brand aware of us. Whether they already brand aware of us. Whether they know it or not, they already know the know it or not, they already know the know it or not, they already know the space because they're accessing it on space because they're accessing it on space because they're accessing it on behalf of other brands. behalf of other brands. behalf of other brands. So, if I go ahead and I reach out to So, if I go ahead and I reach out to So, if I go ahead and I reach out to them and say, "Hey, them and say, "Hey, them and say, "Hey, if you happen to be working with brands if you happen to be working with brands if you happen to be working with brands like ABC, XYZ, which I know they are cuz like ABC, XYZ, which I know they are cuz like ABC, XYZ, which I know they are cuz I can see them going in and out of those I can see them going in and out of those I can see them going in and out of those spaces, right? Now I'm starting to get spaces, right? Now I'm starting to get spaces, right? Now I'm starting to get into a level of personalization where into a level of personalization where into a level of personalization where it's I don't want to say it's like, it's I don't want to say it's like, it's I don't want to say it's like, "Hey, I'm watching you go into these "Hey, I'm watching you go into these "Hey, I'm watching you go into these spaces." But like, "I'm watching you go spaces." But like, "I'm watching you go spaces." But like, "I'm watching you go into these spaces. I know that you know into these spaces. I know that you know into these spaces. I know that you know we know who you are. we know who you are. we know who you are. We can help you, too." And that kind of We can help you, too." And that kind of We can help you, too." And that kind of was like the break open moment for us of was like the break open moment for us of was like the break open moment for us of saying, "Hey, rather than trying to saying, "Hey, rather than trying to saying, "Hey, rather than trying to target all of the people, we know the target all of the people, we know the target all of the people, we know the space is successful, we can see it in space is successful, we can see it in space is successful, we can see it in our ICP analysis, we can see folks are our ICP analysis, we can see folks are our ICP analysis, we can see folks are continuously accessing these Kifins continuously accessing these Kifins continuously accessing these Kifins Portals nonstop, and there's multiple Portals nonstop, and there's multiple Portals nonstop, and there's multiple streams in which we can actually target.

streams in which we can actually target. streams in which we can actually target. This is our focus for this year. That's This is our focus for this year. That's This is our focus for this year. That's a great process. That's I love it. a great process. That's I love it. a great process. That's I love it. That's a great description. I That's a great description. I That's a great description. I Hopefully we can use some AI listener to Hopefully we can use some AI listener to Hopefully we can use some AI listener to like take that and summarize that into a like take that and summarize that into a like take that and summarize that into a process cuz that's like like that's process cuz that's like like that's process cuz that's like like that's exactly right and you went farther than exactly right and you went farther than exactly right and you went farther than I think a lot of people talk about going I think a lot of people talk about going I think a lot of people talk about going which is actually looking at which is actually looking at which is actually looking at what's the product data say? Like in what's the product data say? Like in what's the product data say? Like in SaaS we should take for granted that SaaS we should take for granted that SaaS we should take for granted that like like like product usage data is super critical and product usage data is super critical and product usage data is super critical and super valuable as a feedback loop for super valuable as a feedback loop for super valuable as a feedback loop for the uh the marketing engine but like the uh the marketing engine but like the uh the marketing engine but like often that gets overlooked. Marketing is often that gets overlooked. Marketing is often that gets overlooked. Marketing is doing their thing. Product lets them doing their thing. Product lets them doing their thing. Product lets them know when there's an announcement but know when there's an announcement but know when there's an announcement but outside of that often those those outside of that often those those outside of that often those those feedback loops don't get closed. I think feedback loops don't get closed. I think feedback loops don't get closed. I think that's that's a great story. Okay, let's that's that's a great story. Okay, let's that's that's a great story. Okay, let's talk a little bit about your market. 300 talk a little bit about your market. 300 talk a little bit about your market. 300 competitors in any I like to point out competitors in any I like to point out competitors in any I like to point out that go-to-market is definitely a dog that go-to-market is definitely a dog that go-to-market is definitely a dog fight but I don't think there's 300. So fight but I don't think there's 300. So fight but I don't think there's 300. So what makes you think in a company that's what makes you think in a company that's what makes you think in a company that's that in the space that's that that in the space that's that that in the space that's that competitive that like hey, we should competitive that like hey, we should competitive that like hey, we should just keep fighting this fight cuz I just keep fighting this fight cuz I just keep fighting this fight cuz I think other other folks might just feel think other other folks might just feel think other other folks might just feel like that's too daunting of a challenge like that's too daunting of a challenge like that's too daunting of a challenge especially as a single marketer. Like especially as a single marketer. Like especially as a single marketer. Like you have to I assume Adobe is a you have to I assume Adobe is a you have to I assume Adobe is a competitor of sorts. Is that right?

competitor of sorts. Is that right? competitor of sorts. Is that right? Right. Right. Right. >> Yeah, technically Adobe would absolutely >> Yeah, technically Adobe would absolutely >> Yeah, technically Adobe would absolutely be a competitor of ours and um the irony be a competitor of ours and um the irony be a competitor of ours and um the irony of it is as you know, we came from the of it is as you know, we came from the of it is as you know, we came from the Noun Project and the [clears throat] Noun Project and the [clears throat] Noun Project and the [clears throat] Noun Project is very well Noun Project is very well Noun Project is very well known within the design space. Okay. known within the design space. Okay. known within the design space. Okay. >> So some [clears throat] of our largest >> So some [clears throat] of our largest >> So some [clears throat] of our largest competitors are also some of our competitors are also some of our competitors are also some of our partners at the parent company. So partners at the parent company. So partners at the parent company. So it's a very weird dichotomy to to be it's a very weird dichotomy to to be it's a very weird dichotomy to to be going up against some of those folks but going up against some of those folks but going up against some of those folks but one of the things that we realized one of the things that we realized one of the things that we realized pretty early on with the way that we pretty early on with the way that we pretty early on with the way that we went about structuring Lingo is we went about structuring Lingo is we went about structuring Lingo is we needed it to be very fluid and very needed it to be very fluid and very needed it to be very fluid and very flexible for multiple use cases. So you flexible for multiple use cases. So you flexible for multiple use cases. So you can use us for asset management to be can use us for asset management to be can use us for asset management to be able to show your images, your designs, able to show your images, your designs, able to show your images, your designs, all of those things into one canvas. all of those things into one canvas. all of those things into one canvas. But, you can also use it for your But, you can also use it for your But, you can also use it for your digital brand guidelines. And for many digital brand guidelines. And for many digital brand guidelines. And for many of us, it was a PDF that got left on of us, it was a PDF that got left on of us, it was a PDF that got left on somebody's desktop with like the correct somebody's desktop with like the correct somebody's desktop with like the correct colors and the correct fonts and all the colors and the correct fonts and all the colors and the correct fonts and all the things, but like folks didn't ever things, but like folks didn't ever things, but like folks didn't ever really use that and then it diverted really use that and then it diverted really use that and then it diverted into like bad branding, right? So, when into like bad branding, right? So, when into like bad branding, right? So, when we when we built out the space itself, we when we built out the space itself, we when we built out the space itself, we knew it needed to be able to house we knew it needed to be able to house we knew it needed to be able to house multiple purposes. And not all folks out multiple purposes. And not all folks out multiple purposes. And not all folks out there are going to be there are going to be there are going to be ready fit for us, right? So, of those ready fit for us, right? So, of those ready fit for us, right? So, of those 300 competitors, yeah, there's 300 competitors, yeah, there's 300 competitors, yeah, there's absolutely some that are very tied into absolutely some that are very tied into absolutely some that are very tied into like higher education, specifically in like higher education, specifically in like higher education, specifically in the athletic space, even more the athletic space, even more the athletic space, even more specifically with having like athlete specifically with having like athlete specifically with having like athlete bios and pictures in real time to be bios and pictures in real time to be bios and pictures in real time to be able to share with media companies.

able to share with media companies. able to share with media companies. We're not them, we're not pretending to We're not them, we're not pretending to We're not them, we're not pretending to be them, right? Uh there are also niches be them, right? Uh there are also niches be them, right? Uh there are also niches out there that focus way more so on like out there that focus way more so on like out there that focus way more so on like maybe the gaming industry. That has very maybe the gaming industry. That has very maybe the gaming industry. That has very heavy graphics type of available. heavy graphics type of available. heavy graphics type of available. We're not that, either. We don't don't We're not that, either. We don't don't We're not that, either. We don't don't think we need to compete with them, too. think we need to compete with them, too. think we need to compete with them, too. Um but we do think that we are the the Um but we do think that we are the the Um but we do think that we are the the preferred DAM of the cannabis space just preferred DAM of the cannabis space just preferred DAM of the cannabis space just by the signal the signals that they've by the signal the signals that they've by the signal the signals that they've told us. told us. told us. We're not even trying to become the We're not even trying to become the We're not even trying to become the preferred DAM of the cannabis space and preferred DAM of the cannabis space and preferred DAM of the cannabis space and we already were. So, now we're just we already were. So, now we're just we already were. So, now we're just going to double down on that a little going to double down on that a little going to double down on that a little bit harder. Nice. Today's episode is bit harder. Nice. Today's episode is bit harder. Nice. Today's episode is brought to you by hunter.io, the B2B brought to you by hunter.io, the B2B brought to you by hunter.io, the B2B lead generation platform made for every lead generation platform made for every lead generation platform made for every professional. professional. professional. Whether it's prospecting, fundraising, Whether it's prospecting, fundraising, Whether it's prospecting, fundraising, recruiting, link building, or just recruiting, link building, or just recruiting, link building, or just trying to connect with the right people, trying to connect with the right people, trying to connect with the right people, Hunter makes it easy. Okay, tangential Hunter makes it easy. Okay, tangential Hunter makes it easy. Okay, tangential question as we pivot to the next topic question as we pivot to the next topic question as we pivot to the next topic segment. segment. segment. How often do you have to deal with How often do you have to deal with How often do you have to deal with somebody asking you if you're related to somebody asking you if you're related to somebody asking you if you're related to Duolingo?

So, fun fact, they're actually client of So, fun fact, they're actually client of ours. Yeah, I saw [laughter] that. ours. Yeah, I saw [laughter] that. ours. Yeah, I saw [laughter] that. >> Which means we get that all the time. Um >> Which means we get that all the time. Um >> Which means we get that all the time. Um I I would love to say we never get I I would love to say we never get I I would love to say we never get confused, but I unfortunately see a lot confused, but I unfortunately see a lot confused, but I unfortunately see a lot of confusion where folks think we are of confusion where folks think we are of confusion where folks think we are Duolingo. Duolingo. Duolingo. Um we get it also because Lingo is not Um we get it also because Lingo is not Um we get it also because Lingo is not exactly not uncommon name. There are exactly not uncommon name. There are exactly not uncommon name. There are other companies out there with the name other companies out there with the name other companies out there with the name of Lingo. So we get Duolingo all the of Lingo. So we get Duolingo all the of Lingo. So we get Duolingo all the time. time. time. Uh there is a Lingo glucose monitor that Uh there is a Lingo glucose monitor that Uh there is a Lingo glucose monitor that for some reason folks love us. for some reason folks love us. for some reason folks love us. Um at Voiceover Internet, uh that's also Um at Voiceover Internet, uh that's also Um at Voiceover Internet, uh that's also named Lingo. So a lot of folks do named Lingo. So a lot of folks do named Lingo. So a lot of folks do confuse us not only with Duolingo, but a confuse us not only with Duolingo, but a confuse us not only with Duolingo, but a whole handful of other companies too. whole handful of other companies too. whole handful of other companies too. Does that ever actually become much of a Does that ever actually become much of a Does that ever actually become much of a challenge for you in in your growth challenge for you in in your growth challenge for you in in your growth exercise growth activities? exercise growth activities? exercise growth activities? Uh so the the um glucose monitor was Uh so the the um glucose monitor was Uh so the the um glucose monitor was actually one of the first things I had actually one of the first things I had actually one of the first things I had to try to solve for because the sheer to try to solve for because the sheer to try to solve for because the sheer number of um customer support questions number of um customer support questions number of um customer support questions that would come in about, "Hey, my that would come in about, "Hey, my that would come in about, "Hey, my glucose monitor is not operating or it glucose monitor is not operating or it glucose monitor is not operating or it won't let me download results and send won't let me download results and send won't let me download results and send them to my doctor." And I'm like, "Well, them to my doctor." And I'm like, "Well, them to my doctor." And I'm like, "Well, cuz we're not a glucose monitoring cuz we're not a glucose monitoring cuz we're not a glucose monitoring company. Like I can't help you." Right?

company. Like I can't help you." Right? company. Like I can't help you." Right? So that was actually one of the first So that was actually one of the first So that was actually one of the first exercises that I had to go through was exercises that I had to go through was exercises that I had to go through was looking at why does that confusion exist looking at why does that confusion exist looking at why does that confusion exist for folks when they're coming into our for folks when they're coming into our for folks when they're coming into our forms? forms? forms? And is there a way we can help And is there a way we can help And is there a way we can help differentiate or over-correct on, "Hey differentiate or over-correct on, "Hey differentiate or over-correct on, "Hey guys, we're asset management. We can't guys, we're asset management. We can't guys, we're asset management. We can't help you with your blood sugars." Mhm. help you with your blood sugars." Mhm. help you with your blood sugars." Mhm. [clears throat] [clears throat] [clears throat] So that had that actually happens a So that had that actually happens a So that had that actually happens a little bit more often than not. little bit more often than not. little bit more often than not. Was there a particular thing that you Was there a particular thing that you Was there a particular thing that you did that ended up working the best? It did that ended up working the best? It did that ended up working the best? It seemed to have the biggest impact on seemed to have the biggest impact on seemed to have the biggest impact on people asking that question. Yes and no. people asking that question. Yes and no. people asking that question. Yes and no. For a while there, I want to say about For a while there, I want to say about For a while there, I want to say about like spring to early summer last year, like spring to early summer last year, like spring to early summer last year, um our general contact form, it didn't um our general contact form, it didn't um our general contact form, it didn't matter. I could draw a picture of like matter. I could draw a picture of like matter. I could draw a picture of like we're not this, we are this, and we we're not this, we are this, and we we're not this, we are this, and we would still get people over-correcting would still get people over-correcting would still get people over-correcting on it. Um but at that time our website on it. Um but at that time our website on it. Um but at that time our website was fairly vague. It had not been was fairly vague. It had not been was fairly vague. It had not been updated in many years, at least to like updated in many years, at least to like updated in many years, at least to like a large degree. a large degree. a large degree. Um Um Um I could easily see how people would get I could easily see how people would get I could easily see how people would get confused. Because there was nothing confused. Because there was nothing confused. Because there was nothing really showing them what it was we were really showing them what it was we were really showing them what it was we were doing.

doing. doing. That I could see how you'd get in the That I could see how you'd get in the That I could see how you'd get in the wrong space. So, we already had a wrong space. So, we already had a wrong space. So, we already had a website redesign that was very planned website redesign that was very planned website redesign that was very planned out, had nothing really to do with the out, had nothing really to do with the out, had nothing really to do with the whole mistake around who we are, are we whole mistake around who we are, are we whole mistake around who we are, are we a glucose monitor or not, but we were a glucose monitor or not, but we were a glucose monitor or not, but we were very deliberate in when we were very deliberate in when we were very deliberate in when we were rebranding our site and rebranding that rebranding our site and rebranding that rebranding our site and rebranding that we were not using color palettes we were not using color palettes we were not using color palettes associated with associated with associated with the other lingo. We were not showing the other lingo. We were not showing the other lingo. We were not showing anything that could give them the anything that could give them the anything that could give them the thought process we were associated with thought process we were associated with thought process we were associated with the other lingo. And then as we got into the other lingo. And then as we got into the other lingo. And then as we got into Conversionary Forms, we were very Conversionary Forms, we were very Conversionary Forms, we were very deliberate in, you know, even to the deliberate in, you know, even to the deliberate in, you know, even to the extent some of the quotes that we chose, extent some of the quotes that we chose, extent some of the quotes that we chose, speaking about brand guidelines and speaking about brand guidelines and speaking about brand guidelines and asset management and like wrapping in asset management and like wrapping in asset management and like wrapping in everything that could possibly tell you everything that could possibly tell you everything that could possibly tell you we are the asset management provider. we are the asset management provider. we are the asset management provider. I'd love to say they've totally stopped. I'd love to say they've totally stopped. I'd love to say they've totally stopped. They have not. Um, but it has it has They have not. Um, but it has it has They have not. Um, but it has it has decreased quite a bit. Every once in a decreased quite a bit. Every once in a decreased quite a bit. Every once in a while I have to send them an email like, while I have to send them an email like, while I have to send them an email like, "Hey, I know you really want to get this "Hey, I know you really want to get this "Hey, I know you really want to get this information. You should probably go to information. You should probably go to information. You should probably go to this website here. They can help you a this website here. They can help you a this website here. They can help you a lot better than I can." lot better than I can." lot better than I can." Well, hopefully with all the AI support Well, hopefully with all the AI support Well, hopefully with all the AI support tools that are becoming available, you tools that are becoming available, you tools that are becoming available, you can automate some of those responses and can automate some of those responses and can automate some of those responses and avoid it all together. I early in my avoid it all together. I early in my avoid it all together. I early in my career or my first big startup was a career or my first big startup was a career or my first big startup was a live chat company. And one of the things live chat company. And one of the things live chat company. And one of the things that used to drive us bonkers, like that used to drive us bonkers, like that used to drive us bonkers, like every few months we would go through a every few months we would go through a every few months we would go through a cycle of pulling our hair out to try to cycle of pulling our hair out to try to cycle of pulling our hair out to try to figure out why so many of the so much of figure out why so many of the so much of figure out why so many of the so much of the traffic coming to our website wanted the traffic coming to our website wanted the traffic coming to our website wanted to chat with people. Not like

to chat with people. Not like to chat with people. Not like support chat or buy a chat software for support chat or buy a chat software for support chat or buy a chat software for their website, but they wanted to like their website, but they wanted to like their website, but they wanted to like talk to somebody. talk to somebody. talk to somebody. And [snorts] no matter what we did on And [snorts] no matter what we did on And [snorts] no matter what we did on our website, no matter how tech we our website, no matter how tech we our website, no matter how tech we sounded, and no matter how much like IT sounded, and no matter how much like IT sounded, and no matter how much like IT oriented or sales marketing, oriented or sales marketing, oriented or sales marketing, inevitably, it was like 15% of the chats inevitably, it was like 15% of the chats inevitably, it was like 15% of the chats that came to our own website about that came to our own website about that came to our own website about product were can I chat with a a female product were can I chat with a a female product were can I chat with a a female or some like and what it turns out is or some like and what it turns out is or some like and what it turns out is that live chat was such a basic search that live chat was such a basic search that live chat was such a basic search term that we drove like 90% of the term that we drove like 90% of the term that we drove like 90% of the traffic even with all the long tail traffic even with all the long tail traffic even with all the long tail optimization we did we never could stop optimization we did we never could stop optimization we did we never could stop live chat from being like the most live chat from being like the most live chat from being like the most valuable keywords that everybody tried valuable keywords that everybody tried valuable keywords that everybody tried first and so we eventually just kind of first and so we eventually just kind of first and so we eventually just kind of had to give up it was like we were like had to give up it was like we were like had to give up it was like we were like well we'll just use automated canned well we'll just use automated canned well we'll just use automated canned responses in in our own support model responses in in our own support model responses in in our own support model and that was literally all we did it was and that was literally all we did it was and that was literally all we did it was to this I mean to this I mean to this I mean even up to 5 years ago people I talked even up to 5 years ago people I talked even up to 5 years ago people I talked to were still suffering from some of to were still suffering from some of to were still suffering from some of those same challenges in that industry those same challenges in that industry those same challenges in that industry so sometimes so sometimes so sometimes >> I can believe it.

>> I can believe it. >> I can believe it. You know we You know we You know we we certainly get our own kind of unique we certainly get our own kind of unique we certainly get our own kind of unique challenges at Hunter too but yeah I feel challenges at Hunter too but yeah I feel challenges at Hunter too but yeah I feel like that's just it's too easy to find like that's just it's too easy to find like that's just it's too easy to find us right all of us you it's just so easy us right all of us you it's just so easy us right all of us you it's just so easy to find us and not to find us and not to find us and not if you're delivering good customer if you're delivering good customer if you're delivering good customer experience you're also making it really experience you're also making it really experience you're also making it really easy for people to ask you questions easy for people to ask you questions easy for people to ask you questions that are irrelevant I think it's just that are irrelevant I think it's just that are irrelevant I think it's just like it's kind of the trade-off. like it's kind of the trade-off. like it's kind of the trade-off. Yeah that's fair. Talk about Sex Stack Yeah that's fair. Talk about Sex Stack Yeah that's fair. Talk about Sex Stack for a second for a second for a second you've accomplished a lot with a you've accomplished a lot with a you've accomplished a lot with a one-person department do you do that by one-person department do you do that by one-person department do you do that by relying a lot on technology? The PC relying a lot on technology? The PC relying a lot on technology? The PC response would be yes yes I do reality response would be yes yes I do reality response would be yes yes I do reality response is no absolutely not um Only response is no absolutely not um Only response is no absolutely not um Only reality responses here that's all we ask reality responses here that's all we ask reality responses here that's all we ask for. We're we're a small company you for. We're we're a small company you for. We're we're a small company you know we have small budgets heck there's know we have small budgets heck there's know we have small budgets heck there's only one of me only one of me only one of me um um um prior to coming on board the only prior to coming on board the only prior to coming on board the only technology that was really in place technology that was really in place technology that was really in place that could be perceived as assisting that could be perceived as assisting that could be perceived as assisting marketing would be Intercom and that marketing would be Intercom and that marketing would be Intercom and that definitely managed you know a lot more definitely managed you know a lot more definitely managed you know a lot more of our customer communications some very of our customer communications some very of our customer communications some very light workflows very light touch points light workflows very light touch points light workflows very light touch points but but but the CRM that we previously had in place the CRM that we previously had in place the CRM that we previously had in place when I say was a glorified to-do list when I say was a glorified to-do list when I say was a glorified to-do list was absolutely a glorified to-do list um was absolutely a glorified to-do list um was absolutely a glorified to-do list um and nothing speaks to each other and nothing speaks to each other and nothing speaks to each other Um, I actually spent a a pretty good Um, I actually spent a a pretty good Um, I actually spent a a pretty good chunk of 2025 chunk of 2025 chunk of 2025 um, helping to at least get the um, helping to at least get the um, helping to at least get the technology in place.

technology in place. technology in place. Get it connected as much as I can, and I Get it connected as much as I can, and I Get it connected as much as I can, and I say that because say that because say that because ultimately our dev team is responsible ultimately our dev team is responsible ultimately our dev team is responsible for for for connecting all the pieces together. connecting all the pieces together. connecting all the pieces together. And anytime I spend taking away from dev And anytime I spend taking away from dev And anytime I spend taking away from dev means we can't improve product. Right. means we can't improve product. Right. means we can't improve product. Right. And knowing that we're trying to get, And knowing that we're trying to get, And knowing that we're trying to get, you know, this PIM solution out into the you know, this PIM solution out into the you know, this PIM solution out into the market, that's far more valuable for me market, that's far more valuable for me market, that's far more valuable for me in the end than having these items in the end than having these items in the end than having these items connected together. Yeah, like today uh, connected together. Yeah, like today uh, connected together. Yeah, like today uh, we're sitting on HubSpot CRM. Um, I do we're sitting on HubSpot CRM. Um, I do we're sitting on HubSpot CRM. Um, I do utilize Intercom. utilize Intercom. utilize Intercom. I do use a an email lookup tool uh, to I do use a an email lookup tool uh, to I do use a an email lookup tool uh, to find the email addresses for the folks find the email addresses for the folks find the email addresses for the folks that I am trying to target. that I am trying to target. that I am trying to target. Uh, I'm a big fan of LinkedIn. I'm Uh, I'm a big fan of LinkedIn. I'm Uh, I'm a big fan of LinkedIn. I'm trying to get others to be a big fan of trying to get others to be a big fan of trying to get others to be a big fan of LinkedIn, too. LinkedIn, too. LinkedIn, too. Uh, and I use Looker Studio to a pretty Uh, and I use Looker Studio to a pretty Uh, and I use Looker Studio to a pretty good extent just to be able to help me good extent just to be able to help me good extent just to be able to help me connect the pieces where I can't connect the pieces where I can't connect the pieces where I can't natively connect them together now. natively connect them together now. natively connect them together now. Nice. So, that's a pretty Nice. So, that's a pretty Nice. So, that's a pretty It's a pretty efficient tech stack, It's a pretty efficient tech stack, It's a pretty efficient tech stack, actually. Is it actually. Is it actually. Is it is a lot of the sales and marketing in is a lot of the sales and marketing in is a lot of the sales and marketing in HubSpot, or is that primarily HubSpot, or is that primarily HubSpot, or is that primarily uh, uh, uh, an email or a marketing tool?

an email or a marketing tool? an email or a marketing tool? So, I we use both the sales and So, I we use both the sales and So, I we use both the sales and marketing side, and that was one of my marketing side, and that was one of my marketing side, and that was one of my big requirements is because the previous big requirements is because the previous big requirements is because the previous CRM that we had in place, um, we did try CRM that we had in place, um, we did try CRM that we had in place, um, we did try the janky method of putting it all the janky method of putting it all the janky method of putting it all together with, "Okay, when this happens, together with, "Okay, when this happens, together with, "Okay, when this happens, do a zap here, but we don't want to pay do a zap here, but we don't want to pay do a zap here, but we don't want to pay for Zapier, so like let's see how many for Zapier, so like let's see how many for Zapier, so like let's see how many different ways we can get around it." different ways we can get around it." different ways we can get around it." Um, to "Oh, fire off this Slack message Um, to "Oh, fire off this Slack message Um, to "Oh, fire off this Slack message to make this happen." And it became to make this happen." And it became to make this happen." And it became way more manual than it needs to be. And way more manual than it needs to be. And way more manual than it needs to be. And as a solo mar- marketer, I don't have as a solo mar- marketer, I don't have as a solo mar- marketer, I don't have time for manual. I need as many things time for manual. I need as many things time for manual. I need as many things automated as I can. So, by bringing in automated as I can. So, by bringing in automated as I can. So, by bringing in HubSpot, we did adopt both the sales and HubSpot, we did adopt both the sales and HubSpot, we did adopt both the sales and marketing side, which has made kind of marketing side, which has made kind of marketing side, which has made kind of like a one-stop shop for me to do like a one-stop shop for me to do like a one-stop shop for me to do probably about 80% of my day-to-day. probably about 80% of my day-to-day. probably about 80% of my day-to-day. Um, Um, Um, I do use uh, I also use external tools I do use uh, I also use external tools I do use uh, I also use external tools like I was a big chat GPT person. I like I was a big chat GPT person. I like I was a big chat GPT person. I definitely am moving away from chat GPT definitely am moving away from chat GPT definitely am moving away from chat GPT a little bit, um focusing a little bit a little bit, um focusing a little bit a little bit, um focusing a little bit more on Gemini and Claude, more on Gemini and Claude, more on Gemini and Claude, um because my goal this year, too, is on um because my goal this year, too, is on um because my goal this year, too, is on top of targeting a lot of the cannabis top of targeting a lot of the cannabis top of targeting a lot of the cannabis space is starting to improve space is starting to improve space is starting to improve efficiencies and remove some of like efficiencies and remove some of like efficiencies and remove some of like more the manual or repetitive tasks from more the manual or repetitive tasks from more the manual or repetitive tasks from the marketing and sales roles, too.

the marketing and sales roles, too. the marketing and sales roles, too. Okay. Okay. Okay. Yeah, I Yeah, I Yeah, I I find that you your comment matches my I find that you your comment matches my I find that you your comment matches my own experience recently where I went own experience recently where I went own experience recently where I went heavy at chat GPT for a while and I find heavy at chat GPT for a while and I find heavy at chat GPT for a while and I find now it's all Claude and Gemini. now it's all Claude and Gemini. now it's all Claude and Gemini. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Although for creative, I do use uh Although for creative, I do use uh Although for creative, I do use uh Kimmy, which um everybody probably Kimmy, which um everybody probably Kimmy, which um everybody probably around here is tired of me saying, but around here is tired of me saying, but around here is tired of me saying, but for creative writing tasks, I find it's for creative writing tasks, I find it's for creative writing tasks, I find it's the only one I like. Very interesting. the only one I like. Very interesting. the only one I like. Very interesting. I'll have to check that out. I'll have to check that out. I'll have to check that out. >> Yeah. And for for marketing-related >> Yeah. And for for marketing-related >> Yeah. And for for marketing-related things, I so I'll I'll like for business things, I so I'll I'll like for business things, I so I'll I'll like for business stuff and like processing and research stuff and like processing and research stuff and like processing and research and asking questions, Claude is amazing. and asking questions, Claude is amazing. and asking questions, Claude is amazing. For doing things [clears throat] in For doing things [clears throat] in For doing things [clears throat] in spreadsheets, like Google Sheets, spreadsheets, like Google Sheets, spreadsheets, like Google Sheets, Gemini's fantastic. Um but when I'm like Gemini's fantastic. Um but when I'm like Gemini's fantastic. Um but when I'm like always I ask all of the AI, like, always I ask all of the AI, like, always I ask all of the AI, like, "Here's my prompt and I want to see what "Here's my prompt and I want to see what "Here's my prompt and I want to see what I get." I get." I get." Inevitably, when it's a writing task, Inevitably, when it's a writing task, Inevitably, when it's a writing task, I'm like, "Huh. I'm like, "Huh. I'm like, "Huh. That's uh that's actually a pretty That's uh that's actually a pretty That's uh that's actually a pretty impressive response from Kimmy. So, uh impressive response from Kimmy. So, uh impressive response from Kimmy. So, uh it's worth taking a look at." Okay. I it's worth taking a look at." Okay. I it's worth taking a look at." Okay. I have no equity in that company have no equity in that company have no equity in that company whatsoever. This is just uh you know, whatsoever. This is just uh you know, whatsoever. This is just uh you know, one that I find it actually helps me in one that I find it actually helps me in one that I find it actually helps me in a number of things. And so far, it is a number of things. And so far, it is a number of things. And so far, it is the only AI that has written a cold the only AI that has written a cold the only AI that has written a cold email from scratch that uh email from scratch that uh email from scratch that uh that I would have that I'm like blown that I would have that I'm like blown that I would have that I'm like blown away by. It was like it was just like away by. It was like it was just like away by. It was like it was just like really good. The rest of them are like, really good. The rest of them are like, really good. The rest of them are like, "Yeah, okay, I can use that as a "Yeah, okay, I can use that as a "Yeah, okay, I can use that as a starting point." But that was one where starting point." But that was one where starting point." But that was one where I found it uh I found it uh I found it uh kind of hard at times to edit. It was kind of hard at times to edit. It was kind of hard at times to edit. It was really good.

really good. really good. >> Got it. Yeah. Yeah, I'll have to check >> Got it. Yeah. Yeah, I'll have to check >> Got it. Yeah. Yeah, I'll have to check that out. that out. that out. >> you use Looker Studio for your ICP >> you use Looker Studio for your ICP >> you use Looker Studio for your ICP analysis? I did. So, part of what I analysis? I did. So, part of what I analysis? I did. So, part of what I needed to understand was needed to understand was needed to understand was not only our search intent data, but not only our search intent data, but not only our search intent data, but also how folks were finding us, and then also how folks were finding us, and then also how folks were finding us, and then combining that with the customer data combining that with the customer data combining that with the customer data that I had access to, where they came that I had access to, where they came that I had access to, where they came from, how they found us, you know, kind from, how they found us, you know, kind from, how they found us, you know, kind of like their basic information, if you of like their basic information, if you of like their basic information, if you will, but um will, but um will, but um I was also trying to figure out like I was also trying to figure out like I was also trying to figure out like we're about to make this huge investment we're about to make this huge investment we're about to make this huge investment in website, and a lot of that is to in website, and a lot of that is to in website, and a lot of that is to improve some of our SEO efforts, but improve some of our SEO efforts, but improve some of our SEO efforts, but also to I mean, quite honestly, our also to I mean, quite honestly, our also to I mean, quite honestly, our website was so outdated that website was so outdated that website was so outdated that some of the products we sold or some of some of the products we sold or some of some of the products we sold or some of the things that we did weren't even the things that we did weren't even the things that we did weren't even listed on there yet. So, I knew that a listed on there yet. So, I knew that a listed on there yet. So, I knew that a lot of this needed to happen, and in lot of this needed to happen, and in lot of this needed to happen, and in order to get kind of the full 360 order to get kind of the full 360 order to get kind of the full 360 review, Looker Studio is about the only review, Looker Studio is about the only review, Looker Studio is about the only place where I could pull in all of that, place where I could pull in all of that, place where I could pull in all of that, and I wasn't paying anything for it. So, and I wasn't paying anything for it. So, and I wasn't paying anything for it. So, it was easy enough for me to pull the it was easy enough for me to pull the it was easy enough for me to pull the reports together with the assistance of reports together with the assistance of reports together with the assistance of some ChatGPT to really kind of like help some ChatGPT to really kind of like help some ChatGPT to really kind of like help me with the nuances of writing some of me with the nuances of writing some of me with the nuances of writing some of it. Okay, this has been really great. I it. Okay, this has been really great. I it. Okay, this has been really great. I think uh you've covered a lot of the think uh you've covered a lot of the think uh you've covered a lot of the bases we wanted to talk about. You bases we wanted to talk about. You bases we wanted to talk about. You definitely we got into the the tactical definitely we got into the the tactical definitely we got into the the tactical talk. Let's I think before we move off talk. Let's I think before we move off talk. Let's I think before we move off of uh the tech stack for a second. I of uh the tech stack for a second. I of uh the tech stack for a second. I guess are there any recommendations you guess are there any recommendations you guess are there any recommendations you would share with our listeners about would share with our listeners about would share with our listeners about when it comes to tech stack, things that when it comes to tech stack, things that when it comes to tech stack, things that you've learned the hard way or not, but you've learned the hard way or not, but you've learned the hard way or not, but things that you've learned over the last things that you've learned over the last things that you've learned over the last few years where you can maybe help few years where you can maybe help few years where you can maybe help people shortcut their process to doing people shortcut their process to doing people shortcut their process to doing better ICP analysis or segmentation.

better ICP analysis or segmentation. better ICP analysis or segmentation. Ooh, God, that is such a loaded Ooh, God, that is such a loaded Ooh, God, that is such a loaded question. question. question. >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> Uh >> Uh >> Uh there's so many things. So, there's so many things. So, there's so many things. So, >> [sighs] >> [sighs] >> [sighs] >> all right, this is multi-fold. So, >> all right, this is multi-fold. So, >> all right, this is multi-fold. So, from an ICP analysis, it is from an ICP analysis, it is from an ICP analysis, it is and I get it. and I get it. and I get it. The last thing we want to have to do is The last thing we want to have to do is The last thing we want to have to do is data hygiene. data hygiene. data hygiene. >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> It is one of those repetitive tasks that >> It is one of those repetitive tasks that >> It is one of those repetitive tasks that nobody really wants to have to do, nobody really wants to have to do, nobody really wants to have to do, but when it comes down to actually doing but when it comes down to actually doing but when it comes down to actually doing the analysis, it makes things 10 times the analysis, it makes things 10 times the analysis, it makes things 10 times easier easier easier to figure out where it came from, why it to figure out where it came from, why it to figure out where it came from, why it came in, what you did with it, and what came in, what you did with it, and what came in, what you did with it, and what the outcome was if you document it when the outcome was if you document it when the outcome was if you document it when it's fresh. it's fresh. it's fresh. If you have to do that, say you do your If you have to do that, say you do your If you have to do that, say you do your ICP analysis even once a year, and ICP analysis even once a year, and ICP analysis even once a year, and you're trying to figure out what Joe you're trying to figure out what Joe you're trying to figure out what Joe Schmo did 11 months 11 months ago, Schmo did 11 months 11 months ago, Schmo did 11 months 11 months ago, you're not going to remember, right? So, you're not going to remember, right? So, you're not going to remember, right? So, I've always taken the approach of not I've always taken the approach of not I've always taken the approach of not only for marketing, but reiterating with only for marketing, but reiterating with only for marketing, but reiterating with sales, like even if it's baby steps, I sales, like even if it's baby steps, I sales, like even if it's baby steps, I need you to do these particular items. need you to do these particular items. need you to do these particular items. Make them mandatory fields, so that I'm Make them mandatory fields, so that I'm Make them mandatory fields, so that I'm capturing that information early on and capturing that information early on and capturing that information early on and it keeps me from having to backfill with it keeps me from having to backfill with it keeps me from having to backfill with my best guess later on.

my best guess later on. my best guess later on. Um so, from an ICP perspective, that's Um so, from an ICP perspective, that's Um so, from an ICP perspective, that's number one. I'd also say from a number one. I'd also say from a number one. I'd also say from a technology perspective, probably more so technology perspective, probably more so technology perspective, probably more so now than ever. Um one of the most now than ever. Um one of the most now than ever. Um one of the most important things that I've done, important things that I've done, important things that I've done, usually about every 2 years, is a full usually about every 2 years, is a full usually about every 2 years, is a full audit of my tech stack. audit of my tech stack. audit of my tech stack. And the reason I've done that is because And the reason I've done that is because And the reason I've done that is because sometimes we will purchase a technology sometimes we will purchase a technology sometimes we will purchase a technology to solve a right now problem. to solve a right now problem. to solve a right now problem. >> Mhm. [clears throat] And then somebody >> Mhm. [clears throat] And then somebody >> Mhm. [clears throat] And then somebody builds a technology to also solve that builds a technology to also solve that builds a technology to also solve that same problem. And you're already paying same problem. And you're already paying same problem. And you're already paying for that technology, but you have this for that technology, but you have this for that technology, but you have this other contractor working with over here. other contractor working with over here. other contractor working with over here. And over time you end up with all these And over time you end up with all these And over time you end up with all these different tools that are sharing all different tools that are sharing all different tools that are sharing all this different information. And what this different information. And what this different information. And what I've continuously found is if it's a I've continuously found is if it's a I've continuously found is if it's a really good tool, somebody is going to really good tool, somebody is going to really good tool, somebody is going to suck it into their universe anyway. suck it into their universe anyway. suck it into their universe anyway. And they will inevitably cause you to And they will inevitably cause you to And they will inevitably cause you to streamline your your tech stack. That streamline your your tech stack. That streamline your your tech stack. That has become increasingly important for me has become increasingly important for me has become increasingly important for me because that also means when you have because that also means when you have because that also means when you have less tech less tech less tech going in and sharing information with going in and sharing information with going in and sharing information with one another, you have less failure one another, you have less failure one another, you have less failure points as well.

points as well. points as well. >> Right. >> Right. >> Right. And that is by far one of the biggest And that is by far one of the biggest And that is by far one of the biggest things that will inevitably lead to the things that will inevitably lead to the things that will inevitably lead to the quality of your reporting is if you are quality of your reporting is if you are quality of your reporting is if you are starting to see multiple failures and starting to see multiple failures and starting to see multiple failures and then you're trying to do an analysis then you're trying to do an analysis then you're trying to do an analysis that includes information from any of that includes information from any of that includes information from any of those failure points, if you don't those failure points, if you don't those failure points, if you don't realize it's broken for a long period of realize it's broken for a long period of realize it's broken for a long period of time, it's going to be a hell of a long time, it's going to be a hell of a long time, it's going to be a hell of a long time to fix it. time to fix it. time to fix it. So, they go hand in hand. Is it 2 years So, they go hand in hand. Is it 2 years So, they go hand in hand. Is it 2 years because because because that's the shortest frequency that that's the shortest frequency that that's the shortest frequency that doesn't make you want to lose your mind doesn't make you want to lose your mind doesn't make you want to lose your mind and feel like you're just an IT person and feel like you're just an IT person and feel like you're just an IT person at that point or do you think that's at that point or do you think that's at that point or do you think that's about the right cadence? about the right cadence? about the right cadence? I feel like it's kind of the right I feel like it's kind of the right I feel like it's kind of the right cadence and the reason I for me cadence and the reason I for me cadence and the reason I for me personally the reason I aim for two personally the reason I aim for two personally the reason I aim for two years is if we're honest here a lot of years is if we're honest here a lot of years is if we're honest here a lot of your tech contracts are no longer 12 your tech contracts are no longer 12 your tech contracts are no longer 12 months. They're 18 months or two years months. They're 18 months or two years months. They're 18 months or two years long because you're trying to get the long because you're trying to get the long because you're trying to get the better discount and they're trying to better discount and they're trying to better discount and they're trying to hold on to you a little bit longer. So hold on to you a little bit longer. So hold on to you a little bit longer. So if I did it every year, I may not if I did it every year, I may not if I did it every year, I may not necessarily be able to make a change necessarily be able to make a change necessarily be able to make a change anyway because I'm already locked into anyway because I'm already locked into anyway because I'm already locked into that contract. But I also want to be that contract. But I also want to be that contract. But I also want to be thinking about just because I'm doing it thinking about just because I'm doing it thinking about just because I'm doing it every two years doesn't mean I'm not every two years doesn't mean I'm not every two years doesn't mean I'm not like thinking about okay, well now I like thinking about okay, well now I like thinking about okay, well now I know HubSpot has this ability that I know HubSpot has this ability that I know HubSpot has this ability that I used to pay for something over here. So used to pay for something over here. So used to pay for something over here. So I can eliminate this contract value and I can eliminate this contract value and I can eliminate this contract value and oh by the way when I go to budget for oh by the way when I go to budget for oh by the way when I go to budget for that next year, I already know I'm going that next year, I already know I'm going that next year, I already know I'm going to cancel this contract. So how can I to cancel this contract. So how can I to cancel this contract. So how can I take those funds take those funds take those funds and make a plan for them automatically and make a plan for them automatically and make a plan for them automatically before they disappear because somebody before they disappear because somebody before they disappear because somebody else has realized oh, I can take those else has realized oh, I can take those else has realized oh, I can take those funds funds funds and reallocate them somewhere else. So I and reallocate them somewhere else. So I and reallocate them somewhere else. So I do it every two years partially because

do it every two years partially because do it every two years partially because of sanity, partially because of of sanity, partially because of of sanity, partially because of contracts. contracts. contracts. But also But also But also I want to make sure I'm retaining the I want to make sure I'm retaining the I want to make sure I'm retaining the budget from that as well so that I can budget from that as well so that I can budget from that as well so that I can actually invest it back into a marketing actually invest it back into a marketing actually invest it back into a marketing project. Yeah, very sound. Except on the project. Yeah, very sound. Except on the project. Yeah, very sound. Except on the go-to-market tools side, I feel like you go-to-market tools side, I feel like you go-to-market tools side, I feel like you should review that once this year and should review that once this year and should review that once this year and then not after. then not after. then not after. That way That way That way if you wanted to switch out your lead if you wanted to switch out your lead if you wanted to switch out your lead gen tool gen tool gen tool you could and then you know, you can you could and then you know, you can you could and then you know, you can just use Hunter from then on and then I just use Hunter from then on and then I just use Hunter from then on and then I think everything is solved. That's a think everything is solved. That's a think everything is solved. That's a Definitely could. That's that's a great Definitely could. That's that's a great Definitely could. That's that's a great great way to go through that process. great way to go through that process. great way to go through that process. Any fun stories from your experience Any fun stories from your experience Any fun stories from your experience recently that you wanted to share that recently that you wanted to share that recently that you wanted to share that we didn't touch on yet? You know, there we didn't touch on yet? You know, there we didn't touch on yet? You know, there was one question I read from the sheet was one question I read from the sheet was one question I read from the sheet that when I read it I laughed because I that when I read it I laughed because I that when I read it I laughed because I am email's worst enemy. I don't I don't am email's worst enemy. I don't I don't am email's worst enemy. I don't I don't engage with like any cold emails at all. engage with like any cold emails at all. engage with like any cold emails at all. And you have no one. And you have no one. And you have no one. I have one time. I purchased from a I have one time. I purchased from a I have one time. I purchased from a single cold email and I laughed about it single cold email and I laughed about it single cold email and I laughed about it because I'm the first one to come in in because I'm the first one to come in in because I'm the first one to come in in the morning and just delete, delete, the morning and just delete, delete, the morning and just delete, delete, delete. Like unless you're somebody that delete. Like unless you're somebody that delete. Like unless you're somebody that I know and something I'm working on, I know and something I'm working on, I know and something I'm working on, chances are your message is not going to chances are your message is not going to chances are your message is not going to resonate with me. But I did receive an resonate with me. But I did receive an resonate with me. But I did receive an outreach email. Um it's been a couple outreach email. Um it's been a couple outreach email. Um it's been a couple years now, but it was when uh I had a years now, but it was when uh I had a years now, but it was when uh I had a small team, prior organization, I had a small team, prior organization, I had a small team, prior organization, I had a content marketing person.

content marketing person. content marketing person. And I'm nearly positive this was in the And I'm nearly positive this was in the And I'm nearly positive this was in the height of uh height of uh height of uh job changes are the next big thing. So job changes are the next big thing. So job changes are the next big thing. So when somebody makes a job change, this when somebody makes a job change, this when somebody makes a job change, this is when we're going to go ahead and hit is when we're going to go ahead and hit is when we're going to go ahead and hit them. them. them. So I had a content marketing person that So I had a content marketing person that So I had a content marketing person that was working with me and he was running was working with me and he was running was working with me and he was running all aspects of content marketing and he all aspects of content marketing and he all aspects of content marketing and he uh he had decided to leave the company. uh he had decided to leave the company. uh he had decided to leave the company. I'm already busy enough. I'm now also I'm already busy enough. I'm now also I'm already busy enough. I'm now also the content marketing person the content marketing person the content marketing person uh until I decide to either A, hire for uh until I decide to either A, hire for uh until I decide to either A, hire for that content marketing role or at that that content marketing role or at that that content marketing role or at that part that point we were starting to go part that point we were starting to go part that point we were starting to go away from having uh as many away from having uh as many away from having uh as many um on-site full-time employees and um on-site full-time employees and um on-site full-time employees and diversifying with a little bit more diversifying with a little bit more diversifying with a little bit more freelancers. freelancers. freelancers. And ultimately that was the route I was And ultimately that was the route I was And ultimately that was the route I was going in and this maybe two, three weeks going in and this maybe two, three weeks going in and this maybe two, three weeks after he had left the company and I after he had left the company and I after he had left the company and I remember getting this outreach email. remember getting this outreach email. remember getting this outreach email. Wish I could remember the subject line. Wish I could remember the subject line. Wish I could remember the subject line. Clearly don't have the email anymore. Clearly don't have the email anymore. Clearly don't have the email anymore. Uh but it spoke to the exact pain I felt Uh but it spoke to the exact pain I felt Uh but it spoke to the exact pain I felt at that moment at that moment about at that moment at that moment about at that moment at that moment about managing the content calendar and all of managing the content calendar and all of managing the content calendar and all of the content. And granted this is pre-AI the content. And granted this is pre-AI the content. And granted this is pre-AI for anybody hearing this just saying, for anybody hearing this just saying, for anybody hearing this just saying, "Oh, go to ChatGPT and write it." Didn't "Oh, go to ChatGPT and write it." Didn't "Oh, go to ChatGPT and write it." Didn't exist back then. So you were actually exist back then. So you were actually exist back then. So you were actually writing content the long way and doing writing content the long way and doing writing content the long way and doing all the research and doing the calendar all the research and doing the calendar all the research and doing the calendar on top of your day job, which as much as on top of your day job, which as much as on top of your day job, which as much as somebody tries to tell you, "Oh, that's somebody tries to tell you, "Oh, that's somebody tries to tell you, "Oh, that's totally doable." It was not back then.

totally doable." It was not back then. totally doable." It was not back then. Um Um Um and her message hit me in such a way and her message hit me in such a way and her message hit me in such a way that I went, "Dang. that I went, "Dang. that I went, "Dang. You get the pain I am feeling right You get the pain I am feeling right You get the pain I am feeling right now." To the point where I got her on a now." To the point where I got her on a now." To the point where I got her on a phone call. I ended up hiring her as a phone call. I ended up hiring her as a phone call. I ended up hiring her as a contractor for us. She was with us about contractor for us. She was with us about contractor for us. She was with us about 2 and 1/2 years before she kind of 2 and 1/2 years before she kind of 2 and 1/2 years before she kind of changed who she was targeting as a changed who she was targeting as a changed who she was targeting as a business model, but it was the only cold business model, but it was the only cold business model, but it was the only cold email I've actually said, "Yes. Yes, let email I've actually said, "Yes. Yes, let email I've actually said, "Yes. Yes, let me schedule a meeting and I also plan on me schedule a meeting and I also plan on me schedule a meeting and I also plan on buying with you." buying with you." buying with you." That's fantastic. So, there is a data That's fantastic. So, there is a data That's fantastic. So, there is a data point. point. point. >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> There's one data point of me actually >> There's one data point of me actually >> There's one data point of me actually buying from a cold outreach, but yeah, I buying from a cold outreach, but yeah, I buying from a cold outreach, but yeah, I I think that that's part of the reason, I think that that's part of the reason, I think that that's part of the reason, too, why I almost over correct on too, why I almost over correct on too, why I almost over correct on personalization is because I understand personalization is because I understand personalization is because I understand that if you hit somebody when they are that if you hit somebody when they are that if you hit somebody when they are experiencing that exact pain, the experiencing that exact pain, the experiencing that exact pain, the likelihood of you converting to a likelihood of you converting to a likelihood of you converting to a qualified call is going to be so much qualified call is going to be so much qualified call is going to be so much greater than you hitting somebody with greater than you hitting somebody with greater than you hitting somebody with cold outreach that cold outreach that cold outreach that maybe could possibly potentially hit the maybe could possibly potentially hit the maybe could possibly potentially hit the right person right person right person with a need that they actually have, but with a need that they actually have, but with a need that they actually have, but let's be honest here, more than likely let's be honest here, more than likely let's be honest here, more than likely not and you're going to end up just not and you're going to end up just not and you're going to end up just deleting it. You hit on maybe one of my deleting it. You hit on maybe one of my deleting it. You hit on maybe one of my favorite topics because favorite topics because favorite topics because over the years, this has been a part of over the years, this has been a part of over the years, this has been a part of my life for well, for at least 20 years my life for well, for at least 20 years my life for well, for at least 20 years this has been a part of my life. And one this has been a part of my life. And one this has been a part of my life. And one thing that I've become convinced because thing that I've become convinced because thing that I've become convinced because all marketers are trying to figure out, all marketers are trying to figure out, all marketers are trying to figure out, how do I get the right message in front how do I get the right message in front how do I get the right message in front of the right person at the right time?

of the right person at the right time? of the right person at the right time? And when it comes to cold outreach, And when it comes to cold outreach, And when it comes to cold outreach, I'm I've now become pretty convinced I'm I've now become pretty convinced I'm I've now become pretty convinced that you can get the right message in that you can get the right message in that you can get the right message in front of the right person. That's a front of the right person. That's a front of the right person. That's a solvable problem. Sure. The time solvable problem. Sure. The time solvable problem. Sure. The time is is is going to be wrong way more often than going to be wrong way more often than going to be wrong way more often than it's right. Like it's right. Like it's right. Like nine to one, right? It's like nine to one, right? It's like nine to one, right? It's like And so, the best thing that you can do And so, the best thing that you can do And so, the best thing that you can do is go into your outreach strategy is go into your outreach strategy is go into your outreach strategy knowing that that's true and not trying knowing that that's true and not trying knowing that that's true and not trying to optimize for time, but trying to make to optimize for time, but trying to make to optimize for time, but trying to make sure you're doing all of your energy sure you're doing all of your energy sure you're doing all of your energy focused on optimizing for the right focused on optimizing for the right focused on optimizing for the right message for the right person. And message for the right person. And message for the right person. And I still hear people talk about timing, I still hear people talk about timing, I still hear people talk about timing, intent signals, and this and I think and intent signals, and this and I think and intent signals, and this and I think and I think those are great strategies to I think those are great strategies to I think those are great strategies to try, but I think if you really have to try, but I think if you really have to try, but I think if you really have to like bank on what's going to work and like bank on what's going to work and like bank on what's going to work and how do I make sure that I'm not getting how do I make sure that I'm not getting how do I make sure that I'm not getting dismissed, dismissed, dismissed, making sure it's the right message for making sure it's the right message for making sure it's the right message for the right pain, the right the right user the right pain, the right the right user the right pain, the right the right user who's going to have that pain, that who's going to have that pain, that who's going to have that pain, that feels like a way better use of your time feels like a way better use of your time feels like a way better use of your time in terms of like reward for that effort.

in terms of like reward for that effort. in terms of like reward for that effort. That can also be seen as a controversial That can also be seen as a controversial That can also be seen as a controversial point of view for people in the space. point of view for people in the space. point of view for people in the space. I'm interested in your take on that. I'm interested in your take on that. I'm interested in your take on that. Yeah, so here's the thing, you could be Yeah, so here's the thing, you could be Yeah, so here's the thing, you could be you could have the best written email you could have the best written email you could have the best written email for the best audience. for the best audience. for the best audience. It could be super niche, it could be It could be super niche, it could be It could be super niche, it could be super actionable, it could be exactly super actionable, it could be exactly super actionable, it could be exactly what they need, and if your only input what they need, and if your only input what they need, and if your only input into when is the timing to send is into when is the timing to send is into when is the timing to send is purely an intense signal, purely an intense signal, purely an intense signal, yeah, it's not going to go very far. yeah, it's not going to go very far. yeah, it's not going to go very far. Right? I I don't think Right? I I don't think Right? I I don't think personally, intense signals are baloney personally, intense signals are baloney personally, intense signals are baloney from what I've seen. I've ran plenty of from what I've seen. I've ran plenty of from what I've seen. I've ran plenty of ABM programs to realize that the intense ABM programs to realize that the intense ABM programs to realize that the intense I'm receiving could be any number of I'm receiving could be any number of I'm receiving could be any number of things and I think it's getting even things and I think it's getting even things and I think it's getting even more complicated nowadays of like who more complicated nowadays of like who more complicated nowadays of like who really is truly in the buying market. really is truly in the buying market. really is truly in the buying market. If you take the inverse of that and you If you take the inverse of that and you If you take the inverse of that and you really understand who your buyer is and really understand who your buyer is and really understand who your buyer is and what are the like when do they what are the like when do they what are the like when do they experience the pain point? Like for us experience the pain point? Like for us experience the pain point? Like for us working with cannabis brands, working with cannabis brands, working with cannabis brands, if you have a couple brands, you're not if you have a couple brands, you're not if you have a couple brands, you're not yet experiencing that pain point. I yet experiencing that pain point. I yet experiencing that pain point. I could reach out to you and go, "Yeah, could reach out to you and go, "Yeah, could reach out to you and go, "Yeah, that's cool." But that's not a pain that's cool." But that's not a pain that's cool." But that's not a pain point you have. When you start to get to point you have. When you start to get to point you have. When you start to get to the point where maybe you have multiple the point where maybe you have multiple the point where maybe you have multiple SKUs underneath you or you're working SKUs underneath you or you're working SKUs underneath you or you're working with multiple point of sale vendors, with multiple point of sale vendors, with multiple point of sale vendors, that's when they start to feel like, that's when they start to feel like, that's when they start to feel like, "Oh, my single little Google spreadsheet "Oh, my single little Google spreadsheet "Oh, my single little Google spreadsheet here is not going to cut it because it here is not going to cut it because it here is not going to cut it because it works for this point of sale provider works for this point of sale provider works for this point of sale provider with this set of brands, but it doesn't with this set of brands, but it doesn't with this set of brands, but it doesn't have the same information for this point have the same information for this point have the same information for this point of sale provider. And now I'm either of sale provider. And now I'm either of sale provider. And now I'm either managing two Google spreadsheets or I'm managing two Google spreadsheets or I'm managing two Google spreadsheets or I'm trying to like cross-pollinate between

trying to like cross-pollinate between trying to like cross-pollinate between the two and somewhere inevitably you're the two and somewhere inevitably you're the two and somewhere inevitably you're doing it manually, it will be broken. doing it manually, it will be broken. doing it manually, it will be broken. You have to look for what are those You have to look for what are those You have to look for what are those inflection points. Mhm. inflection points. Mhm. inflection points. Mhm. What are they trying to scale? Are they What are they trying to scale? Are they What are they trying to scale? Are they going it from one state to a multi-state going it from one state to a multi-state going it from one state to a multi-state operator? That is guaranteed to be one operator? That is guaranteed to be one operator? That is guaranteed to be one of those inflection points in this of those inflection points in this of those inflection points in this industry where something can and will industry where something can and will industry where something can and will break. If you know what those inflection break. If you know what those inflection break. If you know what those inflection points are, you know what the signals points are, you know what the signals points are, you know what the signals are that you need to be looking for. And are that you need to be looking for. And are that you need to be looking for. And it's not just somebody's looking for it's not just somebody's looking for it's not just somebody's looking for digital asset management. No, there are digital asset management. No, there are digital asset management. No, there are other signals out there. other signals out there. other signals out there. >> Right. Right. It may be a very small >> Right. Right. It may be a very small >> Right. Right. It may be a very small list of people, but they are going to list of people, but they are going to list of people, but they are going to experiencing the pain that you can solve experiencing the pain that you can solve experiencing the pain that you can solve for right at that moment. for right at that moment. for right at that moment. That's when you hit them up. That's when you hit them up. That's when you hit them up. Not before it, not after it. That's when Not before it, not after it. That's when Not before it, not after it. That's when you hit them up. And it may mean that you hit them up. And it may mean that you hit them up. And it may mean that you are sending far less volume to you are sending far less volume to you are sending far less volume to people, but the quality of those people, but the quality of those people, but the quality of those conversations are going to be tenfold conversations are going to be tenfold conversations are going to be tenfold better than any of the other better than any of the other better than any of the other conversations you're having conversations you're having conversations you're having with inaccurate outbound. with inaccurate outbound. with inaccurate outbound. And I would say those quality And I would say those quality And I would say those quality conversations are going to have a much conversations are going to have a much conversations are going to have a much higher conversion rate based 100%. Yeah, higher conversion rate based 100%. Yeah, higher conversion rate based 100%. Yeah, absolutely.

absolutely. absolutely. Michelle, this was fun. This was a Michelle, this was fun. This was a Michelle, this was fun. This was a pleasure. Um I feel like I could talk pleasure. Um I feel like I could talk pleasure. Um I feel like I could talk segmentation and ICP with you all day. segmentation and ICP with you all day. segmentation and ICP with you all day. Tell the audience uh where they can Tell the audience uh where they can Tell the audience uh where they can connect with you online and where they connect with you online and where they connect with you online and where they can find out more about Lingo. Yeah, so can find out more about Lingo. Yeah, so can find out more about Lingo. Yeah, so I am best found on LinkedIn, Michelle I am best found on LinkedIn, Michelle I am best found on LinkedIn, Michelle Brammer. Uh and if you are interested in Brammer. Uh and if you are interested in Brammer. Uh and if you are interested in Lingo, you can visit visit us at Lingo, you can visit visit us at Lingo, you can visit visit us at lingoapp app.com. lingoapp app.com. lingoapp app.com. Wonderful. It was a pleasure. Very good Wonderful. It was a pleasure. Very good Wonderful. It was a pleasure. Very good to meet you. to meet you. to meet you. Me too. Me too. Me too. If you like what you heard, please like, If you like what you heard, please like, If you like what you heard, please like, subscribe, and explore even more of the subscribe, and explore even more of the subscribe, and explore even more of the Outbox community by visiting Outbox community by visiting Outbox community by visiting www.outbox.hunter.io.