Outfoxed podcast by Hunter.io | Ep. 2: Joel Simkins on the importance of succinctness

This is Outfox, the podcast brought to This is Outfox, the podcast brought to you by Hunter.io, the trusted lead you by Hunter.io, the trusted lead you by Hunter.io, the trusted lead generation platform built for every B2D generation platform built for every B2D generation platform built for every B2D professional. Get ready for no professional. Get ready for no professional. Get ready for no playbooks, no posturing, and no egos. playbooks, no posturing, and no egos. playbooks, no posturing, and no egos. This is the show for the builders and This is the show for the builders and This is the show for the builders and not the theorists. Your host is Hunter not the theorists. Your host is Hunter not the theorists. Your host is Hunter CEO Matt Tharp and his guest today is CEO Matt Tharp and his guest today is CEO Matt Tharp and his guest today is Joel Simkins from XST Capital. Let's get Joel Simkins from XST Capital. Let's get Joel Simkins from XST Capital. Let's get into it. into it. into it. >> Welcome Joel to uh Outfox. It's great to >> Welcome Joel to uh Outfox. It's great to >> Welcome Joel to uh Outfox. It's great to great to have you here. Hey Matt, great great to have you here. Hey Matt, great great to have you here. Hey Matt, great to be here. Excited to have this to be here. Excited to have this to be here. Excited to have this conversation. conversation. conversation. >> Same. So, one thing, uh, you know, >> Same. So, one thing, uh, you know, >> Same. So, one thing, uh, you know, you're coming in sort of mid-con you're coming in sort of mid-con you're coming in sort of mid-con conversation to something. So, I'll conversation to something. So, I'll conversation to something. So, I'll bring you into it. See what you think. bring you into it. See what you think. bring you into it. See what you think. We've been talking about seasonality, We've been talking about seasonality, We've been talking about seasonality, and there seems to be a trend in sales and there seems to be a trend in sales and there seems to be a trend in sales conversations about summer being conversations about summer being conversations about summer being seasonally down, especially like June seasonally down, especially like June seasonally down, especially like June and July. This, by the way, seems to be and July. This, by the way, seems to be and July. This, by the way, seems to be a self-fulfilling prophecy. Everybody a self-fulfilling prophecy. Everybody a self-fulfilling prophecy. Everybody starts to think it's low and then before starts to think it's low and then before starts to think it's low and then before you know it, everybody is talking about you know it, everybody is talking about you know it, everybody is talking about July, like no one works in July. I'm July, like no one works in July. I'm July, like no one works in July. I'm curious, in your space, is that is that curious, in your space, is that is that curious, in your space, is that is that true for you? Is this a seasonal issue? true for you? Is this a seasonal issue? true for you? Is this a seasonal issue? >> No, we're really, really busy. We >> No, we're really, really busy. We >> No, we're really, really busy. We launched our business a little over a launched our business a little over a launched our business a little over a year ago and we've got a pretty big year ago and we've got a pretty big year ago and we've got a pretty big pipeline of clients and deals that we're pipeline of clients and deals that we're pipeline of clients and deals that we're working on. But interestingly enough, working on. But interestingly enough, working on. But interestingly enough, our our business is somewhat counter our our business is somewhat counter our our business is somewhat counter seasonal just because we focus a lot on seasonal just because we focus a lot on seasonal just because we focus a lot on the digital gaming industry, which is the digital gaming industry, which is the digital gaming industry, which is really fast growing and a big facet of really fast growing and a big facet of really fast growing and a big facet of that digital gaming industry is sports that digital gaming industry is sports that digital gaming industry is sports betting. So, as we have this betting. So, as we have this betting. So, as we have this conversation in late July, a lot of my conversation in late July, a lot of my conversation in late July, a lot of my clients are gearing up for NFL, which is clients are gearing up for NFL, which is clients are gearing up for NFL, which is a critical time for the industry. So a critical time for the industry. So a critical time for the industry. So we're actually trying to stay in front we're actually trying to stay in front we're actually trying to stay in front of people ahead of this ramp and of people ahead of this ramp and of people ahead of this ramp and activity. So we're honestly always activity. So we're honestly always activity. So we're honestly always prospecting, always out there touching

prospecting, always out there touching prospecting, always out there touching upon people and our business sort of es upon people and our business sort of es upon people and our business sort of es and flows around different industry and flows around different industry and flows around different industry trade shows and and other kind of key trade shows and and other kind of key trade shows and and other kind of key milestones like the NFL season. milestones like the NFL season. milestones like the NFL season. >> For those who don't know as much about >> For those who don't know as much about >> For those who don't know as much about the gaming industry, which I'll count the gaming industry, which I'll count the gaming industry, which I'll count myself as one of those, talk to me a myself as one of those, talk to me a myself as one of those, talk to me a little bit about I'm sure that category little bit about I'm sure that category little bit about I'm sure that category is broader than I expect. So kind of who is broader than I expect. So kind of who is broader than I expect. So kind of who fits into this digital gaming category. fits into this digital gaming category. fits into this digital gaming category. So, um, sports betting, online gaming So, um, sports betting, online gaming So, um, sports betting, online gaming are still a relatively new phenomenon in are still a relatively new phenomenon in are still a relatively new phenomenon in the US, at least from a legal and the US, at least from a legal and the US, at least from a legal and regulated perspective. So, I've been in regulated perspective. So, I've been in regulated perspective. So, I've been in the gaming industry for almost 30 years, the gaming industry for almost 30 years, the gaming industry for almost 30 years, call it 25 of those 30 years were call it 25 of those 30 years were call it 25 of those 30 years were heavily focused on land-based gaming. heavily focused on land-based gaming. heavily focused on land-based gaming. So, I've probably been to Vegas 300 plus So, I've probably been to Vegas 300 plus So, I've probably been to Vegas 300 plus times for my career. But with sports times for my career. But with sports times for my career. But with sports betting effectively being legalized in betting effectively being legalized in betting effectively being legalized in the Supreme Court in 2019, that opened the Supreme Court in 2019, that opened the Supreme Court in 2019, that opened up a flood of activity in a sector. up a flood of activity in a sector. up a flood of activity in a sector. Sports betting online gaming had been Sports betting online gaming had been Sports betting online gaming had been legal in Europe for call it 20 plus legal in Europe for call it 20 plus legal in Europe for call it 20 plus years. So we're sort of seeing the role years. So we're sort of seeing the role years. So we're sort of seeing the role in that that space. So you could have in that that space. So you could have in that that space. So you could have traditional big companies that most traditional big companies that most traditional big companies that most people are probably familiar with like people are probably familiar with like people are probably familiar with like Caesars Entertainment and MGM and then Caesars Entertainment and MGM and then Caesars Entertainment and MGM and then you have sort of the new powerhouse you have sort of the new powerhouse you have sort of the new powerhouse companies like a DraftKings and FanDuel. companies like a DraftKings and FanDuel. companies like a DraftKings and FanDuel. We're focused on a lot of the smaller We're focused on a lot of the smaller We're focused on a lot of the smaller earlier stage startup companies that are earlier stage startup companies that are earlier stage startup companies that are around the entire ecosystem. That could around the entire ecosystem. That could around the entire ecosystem. That could be marketing affiliate companies that be marketing affiliate companies that be marketing affiliate companies that could be fintech businesses that could could be fintech businesses that could could be fintech businesses that could be B2B technology providers that could be B2B technology providers that could be B2B technology providers that could be sportsbook or online casino be sportsbook or online casino be sportsbook or online casino operators. So there's a really wide operators. So there's a really wide operators. So there's a really wide industry and the thing I love about the industry and the thing I love about the industry and the thing I love about the space is it's it's still a young space is it's it's still a young space is it's it's still a young industry and we're really working industry and we're really working industry and we're really working closely advising and helping a lot of closely advising and helping a lot of closely advising and helping a lot of these companies grow. So fun fact, I've these companies grow. So fun fact, I've these companies grow. So fun fact, I've been doing software for 20 years and been doing software for 20 years and been doing software for 20 years and about 16 years ago I got a chance to

about 16 years ago I got a chance to about 16 years ago I got a chance to visit Gibralar because we were working visit Gibralar because we were working visit Gibralar because we were working with a bunch of folks in the gaming with a bunch of folks in the gaming with a bunch of folks in the gaming space. So now that it's legalized, how space. So now that it's legalized, how space. So now that it's legalized, how do we not have B Fred posters on every do we not have B Fred posters on every do we not have B Fred posters on every wall in big cities now? wall in big cities now? wall in big cities now? >> Yeah, that's a great question. And I'll >> Yeah, that's a great question. And I'll >> Yeah, that's a great question. And I'll tell you if you asked me that question 5 tell you if you asked me that question 5 tell you if you asked me that question 5 years ago, I think that was the years ago, I think that was the years ago, I think that was the expectation a lot of these European expectation a lot of these European expectation a lot of these European companies would be dominant. The reality companies would be dominant. The reality companies would be dominant. The reality is you had that big land grab where is you had that big land grab where is you had that big land grab where FanDuel and DraftKings big brands, the FanDuel and DraftKings big brands, the FanDuel and DraftKings big brands, the landbased guys have sort of entered the landbased guys have sort of entered the landbased guys have sort of entered the space, but you do have some European space, but you do have some European space, but you do have some European players. Probably the most notable players. Probably the most notable players. Probably the most notable players, Bet 365. They're a massive players, Bet 365. They're a massive players, Bet 365. They're a massive company. Some companies just realized it company. Some companies just realized it company. Some companies just realized it is a local kind of boots on the ground is a local kind of boots on the ground is a local kind of boots on the ground game and it was going to be a game and it was going to be a game and it was going to be a significant number to be really really significant number to be really really significant number to be really really relevant. But this is an incredibly relevant. But this is an incredibly relevant. But this is an incredibly dynamic industry and I could talk for dynamic industry and I could talk for dynamic industry and I could talk for like five other podcasts on the like five other podcasts on the like five other podcasts on the different nuances. You have daily different nuances. You have daily different nuances. You have daily fantasy sports like prize picks and fantasy sports like prize picks and fantasy sports like prize picks and sleeper which people might be familiar sleeper which people might be familiar sleeper which people might be familiar with. You have what's now sweep stakes with. You have what's now sweep stakes with. You have what's now sweep stakes casinos like fliff which if you ask casinos like fliff which if you ask casinos like fliff which if you ask somebody under probably 25 they probably somebody under probably 25 they probably somebody under probably 25 they probably have that app on their phone. So there's have that app on their phone. So there's have that app on their phone. So there's a whole lot of interesting insights and a whole lot of interesting insights and a whole lot of interesting insights and innovation, but it's an incredibly innovation, but it's an incredibly innovation, but it's an incredibly fastmoving sector.

fastmoving sector. fastmoving sector. >> This is primarily the sector you've been >> This is primarily the sector you've been >> This is primarily the sector you've been in for most of your career. in for most of your career. in for most of your career. >> Yeah, I fell into gaming uh literally >> Yeah, I fell into gaming uh literally >> Yeah, I fell into gaming uh literally right out of college. I started my right out of college. I started my right out of college. I started my career as a bond analyst at Moody's career as a bond analyst at Moody's career as a bond analyst at Moody's covering the gaming industry and and covering the gaming industry and and covering the gaming industry and and versus, you know, widgets or something versus, you know, widgets or something versus, you know, widgets or something really really boring. I just happen to really really boring. I just happen to really really boring. I just happen to luck out. Then fast forward, you know, luck out. Then fast forward, you know, luck out. Then fast forward, you know, 28 years later and you're running your 28 years later and you're running your 28 years later and you're running your own investment bank uh focused on the own investment bank uh focused on the own investment bank uh focused on the gaming industry. But you know again what gaming industry. But you know again what gaming industry. But you know again what really gets me excited is a being an really gets me excited is a being an really gets me excited is a being an entrepreneur and founder but also entrepreneur and founder but also entrepreneur and founder but also working with early stage startup working with early stage startup working with early stage startup companies who move fast and uh we really companies who move fast and uh we really companies who move fast and uh we really help them again from a capital raising help them again from a capital raising help them again from a capital raising and M&A and strategy perspective and and M&A and strategy perspective and and M&A and strategy perspective and that's kind of really how I found Hunter that's kind of really how I found Hunter that's kind of really how I found Hunter as a tool because when I was working at as a tool because when I was working at as a tool because when I was working at a large investment bank we had other a large investment bank we had other a large investment bank we had other prospecting tools but there was a whole prospecting tools but there was a whole prospecting tools but there was a whole special team that did the prospecting special team that did the prospecting special team that did the prospecting for us. when you're running a a small for us. when you're running a a small for us. when you're running a a small lean organization, you know, you you lean organization, you know, you you lean organization, you know, you you find tools like Hunter that, you know, find tools like Hunter that, you know, find tools like Hunter that, you know, make your job a lot easier and allow us make your job a lot easier and allow us make your job a lot easier and allow us to be efficient. And just not to plug to be efficient. And just not to plug to be efficient. And just not to plug you guys too much, but like when we're you guys too much, but like when we're you guys too much, but like when we're running an M&A process, like we're running an M&A process, like we're running an M&A process, like we're working on a deal right now, can't name working on a deal right now, can't name working on a deal right now, can't name the name of the company we're working the name of the company we're working the name of the company we're working with, but they wanted us to run a very with, but they wanted us to run a very with, but they wanted us to run a very broad process. And we went out to call broad process. And we went out to call broad process. And we went out to call it 200 plus buyers. I legitimately knew it 200 plus buyers. I legitimately knew it 200 plus buyers. I legitimately knew a third to half of those buyers really a third to half of those buyers really a third to half of those buyers really well. But there were certain emails of well. But there were certain emails of well. But there were certain emails of CEOs and corporate development people CEOs and corporate development people CEOs and corporate development people and other strategy folks that we want to and other strategy folks that we want to and other strategy folks that we want to get to and versus having to pick up the get to and versus having to pick up the get to and versus having to pick up the phone and call my friends at XYZ firm.

phone and call my friends at XYZ firm. phone and call my friends at XYZ firm. Hey, do you know this person? Can you Hey, do you know this person? Can you Hey, do you know this person? Can you connect me? This is a way to obviously connect me? This is a way to obviously connect me? This is a way to obviously bypass that. We've had a lot of accuracy bypass that. We've had a lot of accuracy bypass that. We've had a lot of accuracy and success and really kind of running and success and really kind of running and success and really kind of running down anybody that we need to get to. So, down anybody that we need to get to. So, down anybody that we need to get to. So, it's been a nice way to look a lot it's been a nice way to look a lot it's been a nice way to look a lot bigger than we are and move a lot bigger than we are and move a lot bigger than we are and move a lot quicker than I could have in the past. quicker than I could have in the past. quicker than I could have in the past. Okay. My recollection of the gaming Okay. My recollection of the gaming Okay. My recollection of the gaming space is that it was what's the right space is that it was what's the right space is that it was what's the right words where is insular a little bit. words where is insular a little bit. words where is insular a little bit. It's like if you wanted to get in it was It's like if you wanted to get in it was It's like if you wanted to get in it was tricky but once you were in you could tricky but once you were in you could tricky but once you were in you could kind of get established. So like how do kind of get established. So like how do kind of get established. So like how do you build your target market? How do you you build your target market? How do you you build your target market? How do you build your audience? build your audience? build your audience? >> Yeah it's definitely a cottage industry >> Yeah it's definitely a cottage industry >> Yeah it's definitely a cottage industry and people often say that really o owing and people often say that really o owing and people often say that really o owing to the fact that it is generally a to the fact that it is generally a to the fact that it is generally a highly regulated business and I would highly regulated business and I would highly regulated business and I would also say I think you know we we talk also say I think you know we we talk also say I think you know we we talk about gaming talk about fintech other about gaming talk about fintech other about gaming talk about fintech other sectors. I think at the end of the day, sectors. I think at the end of the day, sectors. I think at the end of the day, people do want to help each other out people do want to help each other out people do want to help each other out and it is fairly collegial. I've always and it is fairly collegial. I've always and it is fairly collegial. I've always been a prolific networker. That was been a prolific networker. That was been a prolific networker. That was really how I was able to kind of launch really how I was able to kind of launch really how I was able to kind of launch my own business. I I sort of had my own my own business. I I sort of had my own my own business. I I sort of had my own brand. Being a former equity research brand. Being a former equity research brand. Being a former equity research analyst, one of those talking heads you analyst, one of those talking heads you analyst, one of those talking heads you see on CNBC and Bloomberg, people do see on CNBC and Bloomberg, people do see on CNBC and Bloomberg, people do know who I am. But obviously, when I was know who I am. But obviously, when I was know who I am. But obviously, when I was going from large investment banks with going from large investment banks with going from large investment banks with really nice logos and calling cards to really nice logos and calling cards to really nice logos and calling cards to starting my own firm, X Capital, right?

starting my own firm, X Capital, right? starting my own firm, X Capital, right? Well, I know Joel, but who's X Capital? Well, I know Joel, but who's X Capital? Well, I know Joel, but who's X Capital? And what are you guys doing? Are you And what are you guys doing? Are you And what are you guys doing? Are you guys investors? Are you investment guys investors? Are you investment guys investors? Are you investment bankers? What's your motus operandi? So, bankers? What's your motus operandi? So, bankers? What's your motus operandi? So, we've been doing a lot of kind of we've been doing a lot of kind of we've been doing a lot of kind of traditional marketing, whether it's traditional marketing, whether it's traditional marketing, whether it's speaking at industry conferences and speaking at industry conferences and speaking at industry conferences and trade shows. We've also kind of hit on a trade shows. We've also kind of hit on a trade shows. We've also kind of hit on a very successful formula. I'm not in the very successful formula. I'm not in the very successful formula. I'm not in the podcast market yet, but we started a podcast market yet, but we started a podcast market yet, but we started a newsletter not long after I launched the newsletter not long after I launched the newsletter not long after I launched the business. And being a former equity business. And being a former equity business. And being a former equity research analyst, I came up with an idea research analyst, I came up with an idea research analyst, I came up with an idea of basically interviewing different CEOs of basically interviewing different CEOs of basically interviewing different CEOs and other folks in the gaming industry, and other folks in the gaming industry, and other folks in the gaming industry, companies that could be clients of ours, companies that could be clients of ours, companies that could be clients of ours, companies that we might want to be companies that we might want to be companies that we might want to be clients or people that we felt like, you clients or people that we felt like, you clients or people that we felt like, you know, we could really be helpful in know, we could really be helpful in know, we could really be helpful in terms of building their brand. So, we terms of building their brand. So, we terms of building their brand. So, we put together a pretty exhaustive put together a pretty exhaustive put together a pretty exhaustive database really from what I've had over database really from what I've had over database really from what I've had over nearly 30 years in the industry in nearly 30 years in the industry in nearly 30 years in the industry in addition to supplementing it with tools addition to supplementing it with tools addition to supplementing it with tools like yours. And I think we've published like yours. And I think we've published like yours. And I think we've published 21 newsletters since I launched. Really, 21 newsletters since I launched. Really, 21 newsletters since I launched. Really, these newsletters probably started last these newsletters probably started last these newsletters probably started last September. So, we've been pretty September. So, we've been pretty September. So, we've been pretty prolific at these newsletters. And we're prolific at these newsletters. And we're prolific at these newsletters. And we're using things like Constant Contact to using things like Constant Contact to using things like Constant Contact to track our metrics and readership. And track our metrics and readership. And track our metrics and readership. And the metrics honestly have been off the the metrics honestly have been off the the metrics honestly have been off the charts versus the industry versus other charts versus the industry versus other charts versus the industry versus other kind of read rates from when I was an kind of read rates from when I was an kind of read rates from when I was an equity research analyst. And it seems to equity research analyst. And it seems to equity research analyst. And it seems to be working. And now it's really people be working. And now it's really people be working. And now it's really people coming to us saying, "Hey, we want to coming to us saying, "Hey, we want to coming to us saying, "Hey, we want to participate in your reporting of the participate in your reporting of the participate in your reporting of the industry." So, it's uh it's been really industry." So, it's uh it's been really industry." So, it's uh it's been really helpful and that's been a way to really helpful and that's been a way to really helpful and that's been a way to really kind of turbocharge our brand and and kind of turbocharge our brand and and kind of turbocharge our brand and and help kind of create lead generation.

help kind of create lead generation. help kind of create lead generation. >> That's great. So, have you seen like you >> That's great. So, have you seen like you >> That's great. So, have you seen like you said it's kind of gang busters or leaps said it's kind of gang busters or leaps said it's kind of gang busters or leaps about like give me a an approximate about like give me a an approximate about like give me a an approximate growth rate sort of quarter over quarter growth rate sort of quarter over quarter growth rate sort of quarter over quarter for the newsletter. for the newsletter. for the newsletter. >> It just continues to grow month by >> It just continues to grow month by >> It just continues to grow month by month. So, right now we go out to call month. So, right now we go out to call month. So, right now we go out to call it let's call it roughly 3,000 industry it let's call it roughly 3,000 industry it let's call it roughly 3,000 industry investors, strategic executives in the investors, strategic executives in the investors, strategic executives in the space. that newsletter maybe had 1500 space. that newsletter maybe had 1500 space. that newsletter maybe had 1500 names on it when I started it. So, it names on it when I started it. So, it names on it when I started it. So, it continues to grow and also pretty active continues to grow and also pretty active continues to grow and also pretty active on LinkedIn and being an investment on LinkedIn and being an investment on LinkedIn and being an investment banker, we're really limited in terms of banker, we're really limited in terms of banker, we're really limited in terms of what we can do from a regulatory and what we can do from a regulatory and what we can do from a regulatory and compliance perspective. So, to come on compliance perspective. So, to come on compliance perspective. So, to come on your podcast, I had to get that approved your podcast, I had to get that approved your podcast, I had to get that approved by a broford dealer. Um, so I can't be by a broford dealer. Um, so I can't be by a broford dealer. Um, so I can't be out there on Twitter and and other sort out there on Twitter and and other sort out there on Twitter and and other sort of traditional social media helping up of traditional social media helping up of traditional social media helping up or really really hard advertising my or really really hard advertising my or really really hard advertising my business. So, I I need to do things like business. So, I I need to do things like business. So, I I need to do things like this newsletter. We are allowed, you this newsletter. We are allowed, you this newsletter. We are allowed, you know, within reason to highlight our know, within reason to highlight our know, within reason to highlight our business on LinkedIn. And I'm pretty, business on LinkedIn. And I'm pretty, business on LinkedIn. And I'm pretty, you know, anybody that Googles me, we're you know, anybody that Googles me, we're you know, anybody that Googles me, we're we're on LinkedIn. I'm pretty active in we're on LinkedIn. I'm pretty active in we're on LinkedIn. I'm pretty active in either publishing just anecdotes about either publishing just anecdotes about either publishing just anecdotes about running our business dayto-day, running our business dayto-day, running our business dayto-day, different wins we have day-to-day, different wins we have day-to-day, different wins we have day-to-day, different team building events and the different team building events and the different team building events and the culture that I'm developing at my culture that I'm developing at my culture that I'm developing at my company. So, you know, we're really kind company. So, you know, we're really kind company. So, you know, we're really kind of working all the channels in our our of working all the channels in our our of working all the channels in our our toolkit.

toolkit. toolkit. >> Sounds like a great thorough B2B motion. >> Sounds like a great thorough B2B motion. >> Sounds like a great thorough B2B motion. >> Yeah. Yeah. The other thing I'd >> Yeah. Yeah. The other thing I'd >> Yeah. Yeah. The other thing I'd highlight too is we do have a big NFL highlight too is we do have a big NFL highlight too is we do have a big NFL kickoff piece that's going to be out in kickoff piece that's going to be out in kickoff piece that's going to be out in mid to late August where we're going to mid to late August where we're going to mid to late August where we're going to interview roughly 30 gaming industry interview roughly 30 gaming industry interview roughly 30 gaming industry CEOs. And this is similar to what I did CEOs. And this is similar to what I did CEOs. And this is similar to what I did last year, but on steroids, a lot last year, but on steroids, a lot last year, but on steroids, a lot bigger. And I'm already working on bigger. And I'm already working on bigger. And I'm already working on different ways to kind of blow that up different ways to kind of blow that up different ways to kind of blow that up in the media in terms of just other in the media in terms of just other in the media in terms of just other traditional publications, you know, traditional publications, you know, traditional publications, you know, whether it's the journal or Bloomberg, whether it's the journal or Bloomberg, whether it's the journal or Bloomberg, other verticals that would hopefully other verticals that would hopefully other verticals that would hopefully take some of our takeaways and kind of take some of our takeaways and kind of take some of our takeaways and kind of more widely disseminate it. The other more widely disseminate it. The other more widely disseminate it. The other thing I'll just add too is you have to thing I'll just add too is you have to thing I'll just add too is you have to find other champions in the industry to find other champions in the industry to find other champions in the industry to help you out and tell your story. So in help you out and tell your story. So in help you out and tell your story. So in addition to our database, there are addition to our database, there are addition to our database, there are other industry trade publications in our other industry trade publications in our other industry trade publications in our sector and we've worked out partnership sector and we've worked out partnership sector and we've worked out partnership agreements with those trade rags who agreements with those trade rags who agreements with those trade rags who also republish our product either on also republish our product either on also republish our product either on their website or we'll take snippets of their website or we'll take snippets of their website or we'll take snippets of it and send out to their equivalent of a it and send out to their equivalent of a it and send out to their equivalent of a substack. So that that really sort of substack. So that that really sort of substack. So that that really sort of magnifies. that the true reach is much magnifies. that the true reach is much magnifies. that the true reach is much greater than the 3,000 that are on the greater than the 3,000 that are on the greater than the 3,000 that are on the database. You actually got to the database. You actually got to the database. You actually got to the question I was going to follow up with, question I was going to follow up with, question I was going to follow up with, which is a lot of people will tell you which is a lot of people will tell you which is a lot of people will tell you email is dead or newsletters are dead email is dead or newsletters are dead email is dead or newsletters are dead or, you know, it's too difficult to get or, you know, it's too difficult to get or, you know, it's too difficult to get an audience going. Talk to me about the an audience going. Talk to me about the an audience going. Talk to me about the first few tactical things that you did first few tactical things that you did first few tactical things that you did to try to get the the newsletter out to try to get the the newsletter out to try to get the the newsletter out there. You talked about finding other there. You talked about finding other there. You talked about finding other industry voices that can help amplify, industry voices that can help amplify, industry voices that can help amplify, which I think is great advice, but what which I think is great advice, but what which I think is great advice, but what are some of the other great tricks that are some of the other great tricks that are some of the other great tricks that you've figured out? you know, call you've figured out? you know, call you've figured out? you know, call people that that have done it and ask

people that that have done it and ask people that that have done it and ask them for advice and and tricks and them for advice and and tricks and them for advice and and tricks and tidbits. So, I think when we first put tidbits. So, I think when we first put tidbits. So, I think when we first put it out, the first one or two versions, it out, the first one or two versions, it out, the first one or two versions, they're, you know, using Adobe and other they're, you know, using Adobe and other they're, you know, using Adobe and other kind of different templates. And I did kind of different templates. And I did kind of different templates. And I did it. I'm again, I'm 49 years old. I'm it. I'm again, I'm 49 years old. I'm it. I'm again, I'm 49 years old. I'm relatively techsavvy. But after a couple relatively techsavvy. But after a couple relatively techsavvy. But after a couple of those versions, I was like, "Okay, of those versions, I was like, "Okay, of those versions, I was like, "Okay, that's good." But I had my 20some that's good." But I had my 20some that's good." But I had my 20some analyst who's much more technologically analyst who's much more technologically analyst who's much more technologically literate kind of jazz it up and kind of literate kind of jazz it up and kind of literate kind of jazz it up and kind of get us a fresh perspective. Now, I also get us a fresh perspective. Now, I also get us a fresh perspective. Now, I also asked other people. Um, there's another asked other people. Um, there's another asked other people. Um, there's another person I know quite well who's in the person I know quite well who's in the person I know quite well who's in the investor relations space. He does a investor relations space. He does a investor relations space. He does a similar newsletter. I've been reading similar newsletter. I've been reading similar newsletter. I've been reading his newsletter for years and good friend his newsletter for years and good friend his newsletter for years and good friend of mine and he's always got some of mine and he's always got some of mine and he's always got some interesting hooks in his newsletter. I interesting hooks in his newsletter. I interesting hooks in his newsletter. I find it an interesting read. So, I was find it an interesting read. So, I was find it an interesting read. So, I was like, "Hey, what are your best practices like, "Hey, what are your best practices like, "Hey, what are your best practices and learning?" I also think in the age and learning?" I also think in the age and learning?" I also think in the age of AI and other, you know, technology of AI and other, you know, technology of AI and other, you know, technology can use some of those tools just to kind can use some of those tools just to kind can use some of those tools just to kind of make it a bit more punchy. And also of make it a bit more punchy. And also of make it a bit more punchy. And also now that we've got the library of now that we've got the library of now that we've got the library of content for instance at the end of 2024 content for instance at the end of 2024 content for instance at the end of 2024 we published and the newsletter is we published and the newsletter is we published and the newsletter is called the next it's the next with X called the next it's the next with X called the next it's the next with X capital we kind of created a best of the capital we kind of created a best of the capital we kind of created a best of the next where we basically bet all those in next where we basically bet all those in next where we basically bet all those in the chat GPT and said okay what are the the chat GPT and said okay what are the the chat GPT and said okay what are the most interesting quotes takeaways most interesting quotes takeaways most interesting quotes takeaways tidbits kind of a cliffnotes version for tidbits kind of a cliffnotes version for tidbits kind of a cliffnotes version for somebody wants to kind of hear what all somebody wants to kind of hear what all somebody wants to kind of hear what all these different CEOs are saying about these different CEOs are saying about these different CEOs are saying about the industry so we'll certainly do the industry so we'll certainly do the industry so we'll certainly do another one of those at the end of 2025 another one of those at the end of 2025 another one of those at the end of 2025 and I think there are other kind of and I think there are other kind of and I think there are other kind of versions in the document that we could versions in the document that we could versions in the document that we could come up with. But I'm certainly thinking come up with. But I'm certainly thinking come up with. But I'm certainly thinking about ways to continually make this about ways to continually make this about ways to continually make this interesting. And if you're able to look interesting. And if you're able to look interesting. And if you're able to look at our constant contact, you're seeing at our constant contact, you're seeing at our constant contact, you're seeing that the percentage reads, the click that the percentage reads, the click that the percentage reads, the click rates, all that continues to track rates, all that continues to track rates, all that continues to track higher. And I honestly tend to geek out

higher. And I honestly tend to geek out higher. And I honestly tend to geek out on it. I'll look at it the day of the on it. I'll look at it the day of the on it. I'll look at it the day of the end of the week, a week later, just to end of the week, a week later, just to end of the week, a week later, just to see how it's sort of incrementally see how it's sort of incrementally see how it's sort of incrementally flowing. And then we'll we'll obviously flowing. And then we'll we'll obviously flowing. And then we'll we'll obviously redistribute it on LinkedIn and we ask redistribute it on LinkedIn and we ask redistribute it on LinkedIn and we ask our clients or anybody that's our clients or anybody that's our clients or anybody that's participating to kind of go out to their participating to kind of go out to their participating to kind of go out to their own channels that they've got to own channels that they've got to own channels that they've got to distribute it. So now this is how you distribute it. So now this is how you distribute it. So now this is how you promote the brand, how you promote promote the brand, how you promote promote the brand, how you promote yourself. But when you were first yourself. But when you were first yourself. But when you were first spinning out, you said you've got a spinning out, you said you've got a spinning out, you said you've got a name, people know you in the industry, name, people know you in the industry, name, people know you in the industry, you've been in the industry for a while, you've been in the industry for a while, you've been in the industry for a while, but when you split off onto your own, I but when you split off onto your own, I but when you split off onto your own, I know you had to probably go out and get know you had to probably go out and get know you had to probably go out and get your first couple clients. Talk a bit your first couple clients. Talk a bit your first couple clients. Talk a bit about how you went out and did that in about how you went out and did that in about how you went out and did that in the very beginning of the business. the very beginning of the business. the very beginning of the business. Yeah. No, it's interesting. I honestly Yeah. No, it's interesting. I honestly Yeah. No, it's interesting. I honestly was torn between going to traditional was torn between going to traditional was torn between going to traditional investment banks like I've worked at in investment banks like I've worked at in investment banks like I've worked at in the past. I worked for a lot of big the past. I worked for a lot of big the past. I worked for a lot of big companies or doing my own thing. And companies or doing my own thing. And companies or doing my own thing. And quite frankly, I just had a lot of folks quite frankly, I just had a lot of folks quite frankly, I just had a lot of folks coming to me directly and saying, "Hey, coming to me directly and saying, "Hey, coming to me directly and saying, "Hey, you know, when you're back and able to you know, when you're back and able to you know, when you're back and able to work with people and I had a work with people and I had a work with people and I had a non-compete, so I'd be very careful to non-compete, so I'd be very careful to non-compete, so I'd be very careful to not trip it, but once once the clock is not trip it, but once once the clock is not trip it, but once once the clock is ended on that non-compete, we should ended on that non-compete, we should ended on that non-compete, we should stay in touch and and figure something stay in touch and and figure something stay in touch and and figure something out." So, I had enough interest where I out." So, I had enough interest where I out." So, I had enough interest where I felt like this is going to be feasible.

felt like this is going to be feasible. felt like this is going to be feasible. And I think every every deal you get And I think every every deal you get And I think every every deal you get done, every client you you're successful done, every client you you're successful done, every client you you're successful with and onboarding with, you just try with and onboarding with, you just try with and onboarding with, you just try to you try to get a little bit more to you try to get a little bit more to you try to get a little bit more aggressive in terms of making sure aggressive in terms of making sure aggressive in terms of making sure you're getting the value that you think you're getting the value that you think you're getting the value that you think your brand and your name and kind of your brand and your name and kind of your brand and your name and kind of your capabilities are are worth. And your capabilities are are worth. And your capabilities are are worth. And obviously, it was much different when it obviously, it was much different when it obviously, it was much different when it was just myself doing this at my kitchen was just myself doing this at my kitchen was just myself doing this at my kitchen table. Well, now I've got a team of table. Well, now I've got a team of table. Well, now I've got a team of almost 10 people, including our almost 10 people, including our almost 10 people, including our full-time employees and interns and full-time employees and interns and full-time employees and interns and other people kind of involved in the other people kind of involved in the other people kind of involved in the business. So, we have a little bit of business. So, we have a little bit of business. So, we have a little bit of scale and operating leverage, and we can scale and operating leverage, and we can scale and operating leverage, and we can really just be aggressive. Not to really just be aggressive. Not to really just be aggressive. Not to mention a track record. Like, anybody mention a track record. Like, anybody mention a track record. Like, anybody that's signing up with us now gets a that's signing up with us now gets a that's signing up with us now gets a chance to see how high quality our chance to see how high quality our chance to see how high quality our materials are, how we run a process. materials are, how we run a process. materials are, how we run a process. They see that, okay, X Capital has They see that, okay, X Capital has They see that, okay, X Capital has gotten all their deals done. They know gotten all their deals done. They know gotten all their deals done. They know what they're doing. It wasn't Joel at what they're doing. It wasn't Joel at what they're doing. It wasn't Joel at XYZ Bank. that was the only reason he's XYZ Bank. that was the only reason he's XYZ Bank. that was the only reason he's successful. It's really the team and and successful. It's really the team and and successful. It's really the team and and the capabilities that uh we have and our the capabilities that uh we have and our the capabilities that uh we have and our collective knowledge. That's present collective knowledge. That's present collective knowledge. That's present state, right? You're you're up and state, right? You're you're up and state, right? You're you're up and running. But I have to imagine, running. But I have to imagine, running. But I have to imagine, especially since there's a lot of especially since there's a lot of especially since there's a lot of founders or entrepreneurs or maybe even founders or entrepreneurs or maybe even founders or entrepreneurs or maybe even sales leaders who are thinking about sales leaders who are thinking about sales leaders who are thinking about making this jump for themselves, they making this jump for themselves, they making this jump for themselves, they have a a rolodex. Although half the have a a rolodex. Although half the have a a rolodex. Although half the people listening this probably don't people listening this probably don't people listening this probably don't know what a rolodex is. I appreciate know what a rolodex is. I appreciate know what a rolodex is. I appreciate that you do Joel but like what was that that you do Joel but like what was that that you do Joel but like what was that moment for you when you were like okay moment for you when you were like okay moment for you when you were like okay non-compete is done there's something non-compete is done there's something non-compete is done there's something here where I'm like okay this is the here where I'm like okay this is the here where I'm like okay this is the next step for me what what was that next step for me what what was that next step for me what what was that trigger for you trigger for you trigger for you >> I would say the moment it all sunk in >> I would say the moment it all sunk in >> I would say the moment it all sunk in was when the first check came in before was when the first check came in before was when the first check came in before I landed an investment banking I landed an investment banking I landed an investment banking assignment we were doing a kind of a

assignment we were doing a kind of a assignment we were doing a kind of a bisdev exercise where a company um I can bisdev exercise where a company um I can bisdev exercise where a company um I can reveal this now but a company called reveal this now but a company called reveal this now but a company called Mojo which I've had a great relationship Mojo which I've had a great relationship Mojo which I've had a great relationship with their management team in the past with their management team in the past with their management team in the past and very respectful interesting group and very respectful interesting group and very respectful interesting group Mojo has raised a bunch of money in Mojo has raised a bunch of money in Mojo has raised a bunch of money in sports betting online gaming. They sports betting online gaming. They sports betting online gaming. They pivoted from their original business pivoted from their original business pivoted from their original business which was operating an athlete stock which was operating an athlete stock which was operating an athlete stock market to being a B2B odds provider for market to being a B2B odds provider for market to being a B2B odds provider for the industry. So I I had a great the industry. So I I had a great the industry. So I I had a great relationship with that team that CEO and relationship with that team that CEO and relationship with that team that CEO and co-founder name Vinnet Barara. Vinnett co-founder name Vinnet Barara. Vinnett co-founder name Vinnet Barara. Vinnett uh was the co-founder of diapers.com uh was the co-founder of diapers.com uh was the co-founder of diapers.com which had a massive exit to Amazon many which had a massive exit to Amazon many which had a massive exit to Amazon many years ago. His business partner is Mark years ago. His business partner is Mark years ago. His business partner is Mark Lori who went on to dojet.com and Wonder Lori who went on to dojet.com and Wonder Lori who went on to dojet.com and Wonder and a lot of other successful startups. and a lot of other successful startups. and a lot of other successful startups. So I got to embed in their office So I got to embed in their office So I got to embed in their office basically being an outsourced sales guy basically being an outsourced sales guy basically being an outsourced sales guy for them. And when when that first check for them. And when when that first check for them. And when when that first check blared and I was able to go back to my blared and I was able to go back to my blared and I was able to go back to my wife and say, "We got money coming in wife and say, "We got money coming in wife and say, "We got money coming in like somebody somebody actually values like somebody somebody actually values like somebody somebody actually values me." It became really like, "Okay, we're me." It became really like, "Okay, we're me." It became really like, "Okay, we're on to something." But, you know, I think on to something." But, you know, I think on to something." But, you know, I think you have to be always pivoting and you have to be always pivoting and you have to be always pivoting and looking for the different way to kind of looking for the different way to kind of looking for the different way to kind of to ring the register. And our logo says to ring the register. And our logo says to ring the register. And our logo says capital M&A strategy and it it was capital M&A strategy and it it was capital M&A strategy and it it was initially the strategy piece which is initially the strategy piece which is initially the strategy piece which is where this business development fits in.

where this business development fits in. where this business development fits in. The other sort of epiphany moment for me The other sort of epiphany moment for me The other sort of epiphany moment for me was again being a former equity research was again being a former equity research was again being a former equity research analyst. I kind of know how the game is analyst. I kind of know how the game is analyst. I kind of know how the game is played. I know investor relations and played. I know investor relations and played. I know investor relations and dealing with the investment community dealing with the investment community dealing with the investment community whether it's buy side your your mutual whether it's buy side your your mutual whether it's buy side your your mutual funds or hedge funds or the sell side funds or hedge funds or the sell side funds or hedge funds or the sell side being the former equity research analyst being the former equity research analyst being the former equity research analyst of which I did that for a long time. So of which I did that for a long time. So of which I did that for a long time. So we've actually been doing some investor we've actually been doing some investor we've actually been doing some investor relations what I call strategy for relations what I call strategy for relations what I call strategy for people. I'm not writing press releases people. I'm not writing press releases people. I'm not writing press releases or doing quarterly earnings prep for or doing quarterly earnings prep for or doing quarterly earnings prep for people. really helping management teams people. really helping management teams people. really helping management teams recraft their investment narrative, recraft their investment narrative, recraft their investment narrative, helping them get access to investors and helping them get access to investors and helping them get access to investors and that's become almost a bit of a side that's become almost a bit of a side that's become almost a bit of a side hustle for us, but it it does pay well hustle for us, but it it does pay well hustle for us, but it it does pay well and it really leverages something I I and it really leverages something I I and it really leverages something I I can do in my sleep that I've been doing can do in my sleep that I've been doing can do in my sleep that I've been doing for, you know, a long long time. And for, you know, a long long time. And for, you know, a long long time. And we've had one really successful client we've had one really successful client we've had one really successful client and we're about to hopefully on board, and we're about to hopefully on board, and we're about to hopefully on board, fingers crossed, probably two more in fingers crossed, probably two more in fingers crossed, probably two more in that vertical. So, it's interesting. that vertical. So, it's interesting. that vertical. So, it's interesting. Some of the people that um do investor Some of the people that um do investor Some of the people that um do investor relations in the game industry think I'm relations in the game industry think I'm relations in the game industry think I'm encroaching on their curve. I'm like, encroaching on their curve. I'm like, encroaching on their curve. I'm like, "Well, not really going into your "Well, not really going into your "Well, not really going into your business. I'm really," think of the golf business. I'm really," think of the golf business. I'm really," think of the golf coach who says, "Okay, tuck your elbow coach who says, "Okay, tuck your elbow coach who says, "Okay, tuck your elbow and Matt, you know, keep your head down and Matt, you know, keep your head down and Matt, you know, keep your head down in your swing. I'm really giving, you in your swing. I'm really giving, you in your swing. I'm really giving, you know, the CEOs or CFOs, particularly know, the CEOs or CFOs, particularly know, the CEOs or CFOs, particularly these are small cap companies that don't these are small cap companies that don't these are small cap companies that don't have a lot of coverage or following or have a lot of coverage or following or have a lot of coverage or following or or have never run a public company or have never run a public company or have never run a public company before." Just kind of that advice of before." Just kind of that advice of before." Just kind of that advice of here's how you can be a more successful here's how you can be a more successful here's how you can be a more successful telling your investment story to people.

telling your investment story to people. telling your investment story to people. And you know, we've done some And you know, we've done some And you know, we've done some prospecting probably using Hunter in prospecting probably using Hunter in prospecting probably using Hunter in terms of expanding this IR practice. We terms of expanding this IR practice. We terms of expanding this IR practice. We did a big push recently, got a lot of did a big push recently, got a lot of did a big push recently, got a lot of very quick response because we've had a very quick response because we've had a very quick response because we've had a good case study. We got a recommendation good case study. We got a recommendation good case study. We got a recommendation from our clients that we're able to from our clients that we're able to from our clients that we're able to leverage and that's it's working out leverage and that's it's working out leverage and that's it's working out well. well. well. >> That's amazing. And not just because of >> That's amazing. And not just because of >> That's amazing. And not just because of the plug. For those who don't know, if the plug. For those who don't know, if the plug. For those who don't know, if you're listening, Hunter is obviously you're listening, Hunter is obviously you're listening, Hunter is obviously the sponsor of Outfox/ the sponsor of Outfox/ the sponsor of Outfox/ our day job. So James and I get to do our day job. So James and I get to do our day job. So James and I get to do this from both sides. Both we're the this from both sides. Both we're the this from both sides. Both we're the buyers. We're saying, "Hey, Outfox, put buyers. We're saying, "Hey, Outfox, put buyers. We're saying, "Hey, Outfox, put together something we want to sponsor." together something we want to sponsor." together something we want to sponsor." And then and then here we are. So this And then and then here we are. So this And then and then here we are. So this actually you you bring up an interesting actually you you bring up an interesting actually you you bring up an interesting topic indirectly and so that is that you topic indirectly and so that is that you topic indirectly and so that is that you mentioned a bunch of things about mentioned a bunch of things about mentioned a bunch of things about business development and sales you business development and sales you business development and sales you wouldn't call yourself a salesperson wouldn't call yourself a salesperson wouldn't call yourself a salesperson would you? No, but I'll tell you when would you? No, but I'll tell you when would you? No, but I'll tell you when you're an investment banker, right? We you're an investment banker, right? We you're an investment banker, right? We are, you know, I don't I don't want to are, you know, I don't I don't want to are, you know, I don't I don't want to say we're like real estate agents, but say we're like real estate agents, but say we're like real estate agents, but yeah, we are in the sales business. yeah, we are in the sales business. yeah, we are in the sales business. Like, yes, AI is going to take over the Like, yes, AI is going to take over the Like, yes, AI is going to take over the world, but we are still for, let's say, world, but we are still for, let's say, world, but we are still for, let's say, maybe the rest of my career hopefully.

maybe the rest of my career hopefully. maybe the rest of my career hopefully. We're still very much a humanto human We're still very much a humanto human We're still very much a humanto human relationship business, and I'm just relationship business, and I'm just relationship business, and I'm just making really high level sales calls at making really high level sales calls at making really high level sales calls at the end of the day to CEOs and board the end of the day to CEOs and board the end of the day to CEOs and board members and other kind of crit CFOs and members and other kind of crit CFOs and members and other kind of crit CFOs and other critical decision makers. So, other critical decision makers. So, other critical decision makers. So, well, I definitely have competitors and well, I definitely have competitors and well, I definitely have competitors and I think we've got different strengths I think we've got different strengths I think we've got different strengths and I'd say more nimleness than than and I'd say more nimleness than than and I'd say more nimleness than than others, but for me, it's really just others, but for me, it's really just others, but for me, it's really just taken collectively almost 30 years of taken collectively almost 30 years of taken collectively almost 30 years of industry knowledge, relationships to industry knowledge, relationships to industry knowledge, relationships to kind of do my job. But I will tell you, kind of do my job. But I will tell you, kind of do my job. But I will tell you, people often ask me and I've spoken at people often ask me and I've spoken at people often ask me and I've spoken at my alma mater many times and a lot of my alma mater many times and a lot of my alma mater many times and a lot of other panels like what was the most other panels like what was the most other panels like what was the most influential job that prepared you for influential job that prepared you for influential job that prepared you for your career on Wall Street? You know, I your career on Wall Street? You know, I your career on Wall Street? You know, I often chuckle and if my my 81-year-old often chuckle and if my my 81-year-old often chuckle and if my my 81-year-old father's listening, I did actually work father's listening, I did actually work father's listening, I did actually work two summers as a high school two summers as a high school two summers as a high school telemarketer. My father had a business telemarketer. My father had a business telemarketer. My father had a business that he was doing some consulting for that he was doing some consulting for that he was doing some consulting for back in the day that ran some back in the day that ran some back in the day that ran some telemarketing activities and I was telemarketing activities and I was telemarketing activities and I was selling cable television packages, selling cable television packages, selling cable television packages, Showtime and others. And you know, when Showtime and others. And you know, when Showtime and others. And you know, when you're making like a hundred of phone you're making like a hundred of phone you're making like a hundred of phone calls a night and you're getting like calls a night and you're getting like calls a night and you're getting like people hanging up on you on 98 out of people hanging up on you on 98 out of people hanging up on you on 98 out of 100, you become very adept and resilient 100, you become very adept and resilient 100, you become very adept and resilient at taking rejections. So that's honestly at taking rejections. So that's honestly at taking rejections. So that's honestly been great training and our business been great training and our business been great training and our business there's plenty of rejection. I mean for there's plenty of rejection. I mean for there's plenty of rejection. I mean for every sales call we make only a few are every sales call we make only a few are every sales call we make only a few are going to lead to potentially getting going to lead to potentially getting going to lead to potentially getting hired but you just sort of spring back hired but you just sort of spring back hired but you just sort of spring back up and just water off a duck's back and up and just water off a duck's back and up and just water off a duck's back and on to the next phone call. So that on to the next phone call. So that on to the next phone call. So that ironically you know a long time ago ironically you know a long time ago ironically you know a long time ago doing telemarketing high school somehow doing telemarketing high school somehow doing telemarketing high school somehow paid off.

paid off. paid off. Today's episode is brought to you by Today's episode is brought to you by Today's episode is brought to you by hunter.io. hunter.io. hunter.io. Finding the right email address for your Finding the right email address for your Finding the right email address for your leads can take hours. But with Hunter, leads can take hours. But with Hunter, leads can take hours. But with Hunter, you can go from search to send in you can go from search to send in you can go from search to send in minutes. Get started for free with minutes. Get started for free with minutes. Get started for free with Hunter's verified data, lead management, Hunter's verified data, lead management, Hunter's verified data, lead management, and email marketing tools by visiting and email marketing tools by visiting and email marketing tools by visiting www.hunter.io. Okay, you've run the gambit. You've seen Okay, you've run the gambit. You've seen a lot of this. You've probably done a a lot of this. You've probably done a a lot of this. You've probably done a lot in your life. One of the things lot in your life. One of the things lot in your life. One of the things that's interesting with our audience, that's interesting with our audience, that's interesting with our audience, there's a few a few things that we've there's a few a few things that we've there's a few a few things that we've learned. One is there are a lot of learned. One is there are a lot of learned. One is there are a lot of people doing sales activities but they people doing sales activities but they people doing sales activities but they don't consider themselves a salesperson don't consider themselves a salesperson don't consider themselves a salesperson and with that comes an almost aversion. and with that comes an almost aversion. and with that comes an almost aversion. It's like well but that's selling. It's It's like well but that's selling. It's It's like well but that's selling. It's like like there's some sort of imaginary like like there's some sort of imaginary like like there's some sort of imaginary line that they that they are afraid to line that they that they are afraid to line that they that they are afraid to cross. And I think especially in the cross. And I think especially in the cross. And I think especially in the tech space, right? You get a lot of tech space, right? You get a lot of tech space, right? You get a lot of technical founders who are like, I'm technical founders who are like, I'm technical founders who are like, I'm gonna work up to a certain point doing gonna work up to a certain point doing gonna work up to a certain point doing some of these things. But I think I've some of these things. But I think I've some of these things. But I think I've had some experiences very similar to had some experiences very similar to had some experiences very similar to yours where if you haven't had to dial yours where if you haven't had to dial yours where if you haven't had to dial and then literally have your manager and then literally have your manager and then literally have your manager play back parts of your last call and play back parts of your last call and play back parts of your last call and tell you how you could have said this tell you how you could have said this tell you how you could have said this better or differently. Like you've never better or differently. Like you've never better or differently. Like you've never gone through that kind of grueling gone through that kind of grueling gone through that kind of grueling thing. it can be intimidating because thing. it can be intimidating because thing. it can be intimidating because you don't kind of understand the sort of you don't kind of understand the sort of you don't kind of understand the sort of iterative nature of getting better at iterative nature of getting better at iterative nature of getting better at it. But also, I think in most it. But also, I think in most it. But also, I think in most industries, cold calling is dying industries, cold calling is dying industries, cold calling is dying rapidly. And so this idea of like just rapidly. And so this idea of like just rapidly. And so this idea of like just sitting there hammering out calls and sitting there hammering out calls and sitting there hammering out calls and having that lead to success is also kind having that lead to success is also kind having that lead to success is also kind of going away. But you use Hunter, which of going away. But you use Hunter, which of going away. But you use Hunter, which means you're also doing email. Can you

means you're also doing email. Can you means you're also doing email. Can you talk a little about how building a talk a little about how building a talk a little about how building a pipeline is so much different today than pipeline is so much different today than pipeline is so much different today than it has been in in maybe years past? it has been in in maybe years past? it has been in in maybe years past? >> Yeah, that's a great question. I'm not >> Yeah, that's a great question. I'm not >> Yeah, that's a great question. I'm not just picking up the phone, cold calling just picking up the phone, cold calling just picking up the phone, cold calling people. It's really it's really creating people. It's really it's really creating people. It's really it's really creating warm leads. So, we'll we'll typically warm leads. So, we'll we'll typically warm leads. So, we'll we'll typically send out an email with our script which send out an email with our script which send out an email with our script which explains kind of who we are, what we do. explains kind of who we are, what we do. explains kind of who we are, what we do. We'll try to come up with some sort of We'll try to come up with some sort of We'll try to come up with some sort of anecdote. Hey, I saw you at a conference anecdote. Hey, I saw you at a conference anecdote. Hey, I saw you at a conference or I read about you guys on LinkedIn or or I read about you guys on LinkedIn or or I read about you guys on LinkedIn or hopefully somebody made a referral. Hey, hopefully somebody made a referral. Hey, hopefully somebody made a referral. Hey, I spoke to this client. They recommended I spoke to this client. They recommended I spoke to this client. They recommended we connect. Let's find some time. And we connect. Let's find some time. And we connect. Let's find some time. And then we'll also send some collateral. then we'll also send some collateral. then we'll also send some collateral. We've got call it a 15page slide deck We've got call it a 15page slide deck We've got call it a 15page slide deck that explains our firm and what we do that explains our firm and what we do that explains our firm and what we do which I think is helpful. I mean a it which I think is helpful. I mean a it which I think is helpful. I mean a it looks very good. It's credible and we'll looks very good. It's credible and we'll looks very good. It's credible and we'll maybe tag on a copy of the next which is maybe tag on a copy of the next which is maybe tag on a copy of the next which is our newsletter and then we'll just kind our newsletter and then we'll just kind our newsletter and then we'll just kind of work there. But you know every week of work there. But you know every week of work there. But you know every week no different than when I was working at no different than when I was working at no different than when I was working at big investment banks. I sit down with my big investment banks. I sit down with my big investment banks. I sit down with my team and we go through our active team and we go through our active team and we go through our active pipeline who you know the deals we're pipeline who you know the deals we're pipeline who you know the deals we're working on companies we're talking to working on companies we're talking to working on companies we're talking to that might be an opportunity and those that might be an opportunity and those that might be an opportunity and those that we're prospecting or in advance of that we're prospecting or in advance of that we're prospecting or in advance of going to a trade show hopefully we'll going to a trade show hopefully we'll going to a trade show hopefully we'll able to get a list of who's attending able to get a list of who's attending able to get a list of who's attending and we'll start prospecting those folks and we'll start prospecting those folks and we'll start prospecting those folks in advance of the show and saying hey in advance of the show and saying hey in advance of the show and saying hey we're in town and we were just we're in town and we were just we're in town and we were just sponsoring a big conference called the sponsoring a big conference called the sponsoring a big conference called the Fantasy Sports Gaming Association and Fantasy Sports Gaming Association and Fantasy Sports Gaming Association and we've been successful at that event and we've been successful at that event and we've been successful at that event and you know we were at that event in in in you know we were at that event in in in you know we were at that event in in in July in Chicago and we looked at the July in Chicago and we looked at the July in Chicago and we looked at the list. We're like, okay, there's probably list. We're like, okay, there's probably list. We're like, okay, there's probably 10 or 15 companies on this that we ought 10 or 15 companies on this that we ought 10 or 15 companies on this that we ought to get in front of. So, it's like, hey, to get in front of. So, it's like, hey, to get in front of. So, it's like, hey, we're in Chicago. Let's drop a coffee.

we're in Chicago. Let's drop a coffee. we're in Chicago. Let's drop a coffee. Let's say hello. If you're new jammed up Let's say hello. If you're new jammed up Let's say hello. If you're new jammed up during the conference, try let's try to during the conference, try let's try to during the conference, try let's try to find some time and couple weeks after to find some time and couple weeks after to find some time and couple weeks after to circle up and chat. So, it's just circle up and chat. So, it's just circle up and chat. So, it's just something you have to sort of like something you have to sort of like something you have to sort of like attend to like a garden. You've got to attend to like a garden. You've got to attend to like a garden. You've got to really just be programmatic about really just be programmatic about really just be programmatic about chipping away and and finding out. chipping away and and finding out. chipping away and and finding out. Again, most people are willing to get on Again, most people are willing to get on Again, most people are willing to get on the phone and tell you a little bit the phone and tell you a little bit the phone and tell you a little bit about their story and then you can sort about their story and then you can sort about their story and then you can sort of evaluate either real time when you're of evaluate either real time when you're of evaluate either real time when you're having that conversation or or having that conversation or or having that conversation or or subsequent with your team. Hey, that's subsequent with your team. Hey, that's subsequent with your team. Hey, that's one we should follow up on or maybe one we should follow up on or maybe one we should follow up on or maybe let's just put that and let's call them let's just put that and let's call them let's just put that and let's call them once a quarter and kind of see if once a quarter and kind of see if once a quarter and kind of see if there's something interesting to do there's something interesting to do there's something interesting to do there. You describe going over pipeline. there. You describe going over pipeline. there. You describe going over pipeline. Is that something spreadsheet tool like Is that something spreadsheet tool like Is that something spreadsheet tool like let's talk tech stack for a second. let's talk tech stack for a second. let's talk tech stack for a second. That's one of our favorite segments. That's one of our favorite segments. That's one of our favorite segments. What is the tech stack that you use to What is the tech stack that you use to What is the tech stack that you use to drive sales for your team? drive sales for your team? drive sales for your team? >> Yeah, I would say listen, it's not >> Yeah, I would say listen, it's not >> Yeah, I would say listen, it's not rocket science. I think there's rocket science. I think there's rocket science. I think there's definitely areas for us to get better. definitely areas for us to get better. definitely areas for us to get better. So, you know, it originally was just an So, you know, it originally was just an So, you know, it originally was just an Excel tracker. Our broker dealer has a Excel tracker. Our broker dealer has a Excel tracker. Our broker dealer has a database. It's kind of a Salesforce database. It's kind of a Salesforce database. It's kind of a Salesforce equivalent. We are doing a much better equivalent. We are doing a much better equivalent. We are doing a much better job of inputting these calls and job of inputting these calls and job of inputting these calls and tracking our records and kind of tracking our records and kind of tracking our records and kind of creating a bit of a reminders and creating a bit of a reminders and creating a bit of a reminders and calendars to follow up. So, we're not calendars to follow up. So, we're not calendars to follow up. So, we're not that sophisticated. I guess to answer that sophisticated. I guess to answer that sophisticated. I guess to answer your question, at this point, as we get your question, at this point, as we get your question, at this point, as we get a lot bigger and let's just say there's a lot bigger and let's just say there's a lot bigger and let's just say there's other, you know, senior investment other, you know, senior investment other, you know, senior investment banking platform or partners on our banking platform or partners on our banking platform or partners on our platform in the next year, I think we'll platform in the next year, I think we'll platform in the next year, I think we'll be much more rigorous in our approach.

be much more rigorous in our approach. be much more rigorous in our approach. But our prospecting is in the, you know, But our prospecting is in the, you know, But our prospecting is in the, you know, hundreds, not thousands. And we we can hundreds, not thousands. And we we can hundreds, not thousands. And we we can only do so many deals at a time because, only do so many deals at a time because, only do so many deals at a time because, you know, they take a long time. They're you know, they take a long time. They're you know, they take a long time. They're very demanding. our clients. When you're very demanding. our clients. When you're very demanding. our clients. When you're an investment banker, it truly is a an investment banker, it truly is a an investment banker, it truly is a 24-hour a day job, and I'm always 24-hour a day job, and I'm always 24-hour a day job, and I'm always accessible and reachable no matter where accessible and reachable no matter where accessible and reachable no matter where I am. I was on vacation recently in in I am. I was on vacation recently in in I am. I was on vacation recently in in Latin America with my family and like Latin America with my family and like Latin America with my family and like we're about to go river rafting in the we're about to go river rafting in the we're about to go river rafting in the middle of nowhere in a jungle and I'm middle of nowhere in a jungle and I'm middle of nowhere in a jungle and I'm like sitting there like, you know, in like sitting there like, you know, in like sitting there like, you know, in the in the van like on my phone the in the van like on my phone the in the van like on my phone responding to emails cuz you have to be responding to emails cuz you have to be responding to emails cuz you have to be accessible. So, we have to be very accessible. So, we have to be very accessible. So, we have to be very selective in a day. Now, now we can selective in a day. Now, now we can selective in a day. Now, now we can afford to be selective in terms of the afford to be selective in terms of the afford to be selective in terms of the clients who are going to on board. So, clients who are going to on board. So, clients who are going to on board. So, you've got CRM Hunter, of course, you you've got CRM Hunter, of course, you you've got CRM Hunter, of course, you got to have that. Are there other tools? got to have that. Are there other tools? got to have that. Are there other tools? Do you use like automated dialers or is Do you use like automated dialers or is Do you use like automated dialers or is it all fairly manual? it all fairly manual? it all fairly manual? >> It's all manual. I mean, it's mostly >> It's all manual. I mean, it's mostly >> It's all manual. I mean, it's mostly email and email and lining up calls and email and email and lining up calls and email and email and lining up calls and where you're using your Zoom and other where you're using your Zoom and other where you're using your Zoom and other channels. We are using a lot of other channels. We are using a lot of other channels. We are using a lot of other kind of AI tools for just our, you know, kind of AI tools for just our, you know, kind of AI tools for just our, you know, note takingaking and things like that.

note takingaking and things like that. note takingaking and things like that. This seem to be very common place right This seem to be very common place right This seem to be very common place right now. And more often than not, a client now. And more often than not, a client now. And more often than not, a client reaches out to us, they've got their reaches out to us, they've got their reaches out to us, they've got their Zoom call recorder, you know, taking Zoom call recorder, you know, taking Zoom call recorder, you know, taking notes in tandem. And we'll use that to notes in tandem. And we'll use that to notes in tandem. And we'll use that to some degree when it's available, kind of some degree when it's available, kind of some degree when it's available, kind of getting the most out of our calls and getting the most out of our calls and getting the most out of our calls and making sure we can leverage things. And making sure we can leverage things. And making sure we can leverage things. And listen, that's the beauty of a lot of listen, that's the beauty of a lot of listen, that's the beauty of a lot of these tools. When I was working at big these tools. When I was working at big these tools. When I was working at big banks, right, that was something, you banks, right, that was something, you banks, right, that was something, you know, we had I had a nineperson team at know, we had I had a nineperson team at know, we had I had a nineperson team at my last firm and I could have a first my last firm and I could have a first my last firm and I could have a first year analyst taking copious notes, year analyst taking copious notes, year analyst taking copious notes, sometimes better than others. But now we sometimes better than others. But now we sometimes better than others. But now we have these tools that we can leverage. have these tools that we can leverage. have these tools that we can leverage. we go back and run the traps for we go back and run the traps for we go back and run the traps for different factoids or other detail that different factoids or other detail that different factoids or other detail that we want to get out of it. It's great we want to get out of it. It's great we want to get out of it. It's great though to hear you talk about that though to hear you talk about that though to hear you talk about that because there's a misconception out because there's a misconception out because there's a misconception out there that tech stack is what's really there that tech stack is what's really there that tech stack is what's really going to determine your sort of success going to determine your sort of success going to determine your sort of success or failure. And while it's true there or failure. And while it's true there or failure. And while it's true there are certain things that everybody should are certain things that everybody should are certain things that everybody should do and my biases aside, I think do and my biases aside, I think do and my biases aside, I think verifying the data in your database is a verifying the data in your database is a verifying the data in your database is a pretty good place to start. But like pretty good place to start. But like pretty good place to start. But like yeah, just getting it organized in a yeah, just getting it organized in a yeah, just getting it organized in a single place that you know is a source single place that you know is a source single place that you know is a source of truth, verifying that data, keeping of truth, verifying that data, keeping of truth, verifying that data, keeping it clean, like these are kind of the it clean, like these are kind of the it clean, like these are kind of the standards. But beyond that, it's the standards. But beyond that, it's the standards. But beyond that, it's the tech stack isn't make or break. And tech stack isn't make or break. And tech stack isn't make or break. And hearing you talk about how you can build hearing you talk about how you can build hearing you talk about how you can build that business with a fairly minimal, that business with a fairly minimal, that business with a fairly minimal, always been a strong believer that let always been a strong believer that let always been a strong believer that let the demand on the business drive how the demand on the business drive how the demand on the business drive how much tech you need as opposed to trying much tech you need as opposed to trying much tech you need as opposed to trying to do it the other way. And it's great to do it the other way. And it's great to do it the other way. And it's great to hear you say that. I think a lot of to hear you say that. I think a lot of to hear you say that. I think a lot of people need the encouragement that a people need the encouragement that a people need the encouragement that a couple of tools is a good place to couple of tools is a good place to couple of tools is a good place to start.

start. start. >> For sure. Yeah, we could get a lot >> For sure. Yeah, we could get a lot >> For sure. Yeah, we could get a lot better at those. And um you know, again, better at those. And um you know, again, better at those. And um you know, again, we're we're affiliated with a broker we're we're affiliated with a broker we're we're affiliated with a broker dealer that really handles our back dealer that really handles our back dealer that really handles our back office compliance, legal, regulatory. office compliance, legal, regulatory. office compliance, legal, regulatory. And I've become very good friends with And I've become very good friends with And I've become very good friends with the CEO of our investment bank, the CEO of our investment bank, the CEO of our investment bank, Stonehaven, because we're power users. Stonehaven, because we're power users. Stonehaven, because we're power users. We're growing rapidly, and you he's We're growing rapidly, and you he's We're growing rapidly, and you he's often ripping me like, you know, Joel, often ripping me like, you know, Joel, often ripping me like, you know, Joel, you've got all these tools in house. You you've got all these tools in house. You you've got all these tools in house. You guys could do a better job leveraging. guys could do a better job leveraging. guys could do a better job leveraging. I'm like, I know, but I'm I'm in the I'm like, I know, but I'm I'm in the I'm like, I know, but I'm I'm in the middle of executing deals and the team's middle of executing deals and the team's middle of executing deals and the team's busy. It's like it's it's on the road busy. It's like it's it's on the road busy. It's like it's it's on the road map to get there and do a better job map to get there and do a better job map to get there and do a better job leveraging that stuff, but it just takes leveraging that stuff, but it just takes leveraging that stuff, but it just takes time and we've got to kind of pick our time and we've got to kind of pick our time and we've got to kind of pick our battles where we can. battles where we can. battles where we can. >> How big is the team that's doing sales >> How big is the team that's doing sales >> How big is the team that's doing sales related activities with you? related activities with you? related activities with you? >> It's it's a couple. So I basically have >> It's it's a couple. So I basically have >> It's it's a couple. So I basically have farmed that out to our analyst and farmed that out to our analyst and farmed that out to our analyst and associates and one of them basically his associates and one of them basically his associates and one of them basically his role and again when I was at a former role and again when I was at a former role and again when I was at a former large investment bank we we had an large investment bank we we had an large investment bank we we had an entire team that did prospecting that entire team that did prospecting that entire team that did prospecting that had tools like Hunter amongst other had tools like Hunter amongst other had tools like Hunter amongst other tools and again I don't have the budget tools and again I don't have the budget tools and again I don't have the budget to hire a person whose sole job is to hire a person whose sole job is to hire a person whose sole job is prospecting. So that's just on their prospecting. So that's just on their prospecting. So that's just on their list of daily activities. And Andrew on list of daily activities. And Andrew on list of daily activities. And Andrew on our team who does a lot of the our team who does a lot of the our team who does a lot of the prospecting, you know, sort of have an prospecting, you know, sort of have an prospecting, you know, sort of have an agreement like every Monday you need to agreement like every Monday you need to agreement like every Monday you need to go out and ping five or 10 people. And go out and ping five or 10 people. And go out and ping five or 10 people. And he's very good at finding just different he's very good at finding just different he's very good at finding just different ideas through industry podcasts, other ideas through industry podcasts, other ideas through industry podcasts, other trade rags of hey this person appeared trade rags of hey this person appeared trade rags of hey this person appeared on this show or there was some news on this show or there was some news on this show or there was some news story about this company. We ought to story about this company. We ought to story about this company. We ought to reach them. And and the reality is we reach them. And and the reality is we reach them. And and the reality is we have such a big database and rolodex have such a big database and rolodex have such a big database and rolodex where again a lot of the calls are where again a lot of the calls are where again a lot of the calls are inbound now as opposed to outbound. But

inbound now as opposed to outbound. But inbound now as opposed to outbound. But I think you've always got to be I think you've always got to be I think you've always got to be prospecting and kind of um finding out prospecting and kind of um finding out prospecting and kind of um finding out about new potential clients and about new potential clients and about new potential clients and opportunities. opportunities. opportunities. >> I agree. But I have a concerted interest >> I agree. But I have a concerted interest >> I agree. But I have a concerted interest in that being true. But I think, you in that being true. But I think, you in that being true. But I think, you know, look, channels change, industries know, look, channels change, industries know, look, channels change, industries change, if you're not constantly trying change, if you're not constantly trying change, if you're not constantly trying to keep that awareness out there and to keep that awareness out there and to keep that awareness out there and keep building that pipeline for the keep building that pipeline for the keep building that pipeline for the future. No, it's not going to be there future. No, it's not going to be there future. No, it's not going to be there when you most need it. And I think when you most need it. And I think when you most need it. And I think that's the the hardest part. that's the the hardest part. that's the the hardest part. >> Yeah. at our business at the to back to >> Yeah. at our business at the to back to >> Yeah. at our business at the to back to our earlier conversation around cottage our earlier conversation around cottage our earlier conversation around cottage industry. It's only so big, right? I'm industry. It's only so big, right? I'm industry. It's only so big, right? I'm not trying to sell to millions. I'm not trying to sell to millions. I'm not trying to sell to millions. I'm trying to sell to like tens every year trying to sell to like tens every year trying to sell to like tens every year of people, right? So, it's we might cast of people, right? So, it's we might cast of people, right? So, it's we might cast a relatively wide net, but it's nowhere a relatively wide net, but it's nowhere a relatively wide net, but it's nowhere near other kind of technology tools or near other kind of technology tools or near other kind of technology tools or services or companies that you're services or companies that you're services or companies that you're probably engaging with who leverage it probably engaging with who leverage it probably engaging with who leverage it in different capacity. in different capacity. in different capacity. >> This is great. All right, a couple >> This is great. All right, a couple >> This is great. All right, a couple pieces of of advice for people who are pieces of of advice for people who are pieces of of advice for people who are listening. So, the first question I have listening. So, the first question I have listening. So, the first question I have for you, has anybody ever sold you via for you, has anybody ever sold you via for you, has anybody ever sold you via email? Meaning, have they opened the email? Meaning, have they opened the email? Meaning, have they opened the door, got the whole thing going? Have door, got the whole thing going? Have door, got the whole thing going? Have they cold emailed you, and then turned they cold emailed you, and then turned they cold emailed you, and then turned that into revenue for them?

that into revenue for them? that into revenue for them? >> It's possible. Yeah, it's possible. I >> It's possible. Yeah, it's possible. I >> It's possible. Yeah, it's possible. I mean, funny enough, even my personal mean, funny enough, even my personal mean, funny enough, even my personal accountant, she actually sent me a accountant, she actually sent me a accountant, she actually sent me a letter, which is really, really ancient, letter, which is really, really ancient, letter, which is really, really ancient, but you know, Yeah, she Yeah, she sent but you know, Yeah, she Yeah, she sent but you know, Yeah, she Yeah, she sent me a letter and it was kind of me a letter and it was kind of me a letter and it was kind of personalized. And, uh, at the time, I personalized. And, uh, at the time, I personalized. And, uh, at the time, I was like, "Okay, I need a new tax was like, "Okay, I need a new tax was like, "Okay, I need a new tax person. and I need just kind of get a person. and I need just kind of get a person. and I need just kind of get a little more sophisticated and she kind little more sophisticated and she kind little more sophisticated and she kind of sent me her background. So, it's like of sent me her background. So, it's like of sent me her background. So, it's like right place, right time and need. That's right place, right time and need. That's right place, right time and need. That's not always going to be the case. But not always going to be the case. But not always going to be the case. But sometimes these oldfashioned channels sometimes these oldfashioned channels sometimes these oldfashioned channels work, but maybe because I was a work, but maybe because I was a work, but maybe because I was a telemarketer in a a former life, I'm a telemarketer in a a former life, I'm a telemarketer in a a former life, I'm a little more empathetic. But sometimes, little more empathetic. But sometimes, little more empathetic. But sometimes, yeah, I'll get a cold outreach that yeah, I'll get a cold outreach that yeah, I'll get a cold outreach that might be effective or at least, you might be effective or at least, you might be effective or at least, you know, okay, maybe I should hear it or know, okay, maybe I should hear it or know, okay, maybe I should hear it or just willing to take that pitch and see just willing to take that pitch and see just willing to take that pitch and see where it goes. So, if you're going to where it goes. So, if you're going to where it goes. So, if you're going to give last piece here, if you're going to give last piece here, if you're going to give last piece here, if you're going to give advice to anybody who's going to be give advice to anybody who's going to be give advice to anybody who's going to be writing an email to try to get into writing an email to try to get into writing an email to try to get into somebody in in the finance industry or somebody in in the finance industry or somebody in in the finance industry or gaming or what have you, like what's gaming or what have you, like what's gaming or what have you, like what's what's a piece of advice that you think what's a piece of advice that you think what's a piece of advice that you think people need to hear? people need to hear? people need to hear? >> You know, you just try to make it look >> You know, you just try to make it look >> You know, you just try to make it look like it wasn't written by AI. like it wasn't written by AI. like it wasn't written by AI. You know, I think people are really You know, I think people are really You know, I think people are really honestly leveraging these tools a little honestly leveraging these tools a little honestly leveraging these tools a little bit too much right now where it comes bit too much right now where it comes bit too much right now where it comes across as really cliche or cheesy or a across as really cliche or cheesy or a across as really cliche or cheesy or a little too they'll find out something little too they'll find out something little too they'll find out something about me or my business and it'll be about me or my business and it'll be about me or my business and it'll be like oh I heard about all success or you like oh I heard about all success or you like oh I heard about all success or you know I went to this school or you just know I went to this school or you just know I went to this school or you just try to come up with a unique hook I try to come up with a unique hook I try to come up with a unique hook I think to to to get people versus the think to to to get people versus the think to to to get people versus the obvious flattery. I think the really the obvious flattery. I think the really the obvious flattery. I think the really the best way is through referrals. So I best way is through referrals. So I best way is through referrals. So I think it's finding that one degree of think it's finding that one degree of think it's finding that one degree of separation or two degrees of separation

separation or two degrees of separation separation or two degrees of separation is somebody that can be your champion. is somebody that can be your champion. is somebody that can be your champion. So for instance, this investor relations So for instance, this investor relations So for instance, this investor relations business that we've been kind of trying business that we've been kind of trying business that we've been kind of trying to to grow this client that was our to to grow this client that was our to to grow this client that was our first client in investor relations first client in investor relations first client in investor relations developed a really good relationship developed a really good relationship developed a really good relationship with the CFO of this company and I just with the CFO of this company and I just with the CFO of this company and I just said, "Hey, you know, it would really said, "Hey, you know, it would really said, "Hey, you know, it would really mean a lot to me if you could be a mean a lot to me if you could be a mean a lot to me if you could be a reference and write sort of a generic reference and write sort of a generic reference and write sort of a generic letter that just talks about how we were letter that just talks about how we were letter that just talks about how we were helpful and what we've been doing with helpful and what we've been doing with helpful and what we've been doing with you." and he wrote, you know, I really you." and he wrote, you know, I really you." and he wrote, you know, I really didn't give him much feedback and he didn't give him much feedback and he didn't give him much feedback and he wrote a glowing review that could wrote a glowing review that could wrote a glowing review that could couldn't be any better. So, as we were couldn't be any better. So, as we were couldn't be any better. So, as we were prospecting for new clients, we prospecting for new clients, we prospecting for new clients, we obviously had our collider on here's obviously had our collider on here's obviously had our collider on here's what we do from an IR strategy what we do from an IR strategy what we do from an IR strategy perspective and if you want to hear it, perspective and if you want to hear it, perspective and if you want to hear it, here's what the CFO said. Happy to put here's what the CFO said. Happy to put here's what the CFO said. Happy to put them on the phone with you anytime. And them on the phone with you anytime. And them on the phone with you anytime. And that was instant feedback. I mean that was instant feedback. I mean that was instant feedback. I mean hopefully fingers crossed two of these hopefully fingers crossed two of these hopefully fingers crossed two of these clients that were looking to onboard. I clients that were looking to onboard. I clients that were looking to onboard. I mean I literally got responses from mean I literally got responses from mean I literally got responses from their CEO and CFO the same day that we their CEO and CFO the same day that we their CEO and CFO the same day that we sent this email out of like you know sent this email out of like you know sent this email out of like you know this is exactly what we're looking for. this is exactly what we're looking for. this is exactly what we're looking for. I'm glad we connected. So for me that I'm glad we connected. So for me that I'm glad we connected. So for me that was a really that was a nice uh moment.

was a really that was a nice uh moment. was a really that was a nice uh moment. >> Was it a long email or was it fairly to >> Was it a long email or was it fairly to >> Was it a long email or was it fairly to the point? No, it was uh probably four the point? No, it was uh probably four the point? No, it was uh probably four paragraph email, so pretty tight. And paragraph email, so pretty tight. And paragraph email, so pretty tight. And then along with this reference letter then along with this reference letter then along with this reference letter and then an overview of our services and and then an overview of our services and and then an overview of our services and that was sort of like a a five-pager on that was sort of like a a five-pager on that was sort of like a a five-pager on kind of what we do. And the other thing kind of what we do. And the other thing kind of what we do. And the other thing just to go back to your question around just to go back to your question around just to go back to your question around advice, right? You got to be really, advice, right? You got to be really, advice, right? You got to be really, really tight with your delivery. We all really tight with your delivery. We all really tight with your delivery. We all have ADD. We all don't have enough time have ADD. We all don't have enough time have ADD. We all don't have enough time to read our email. You're just going to to read our email. You're just going to to read our email. You're just going to scan the first thing that pops up. Just scan the first thing that pops up. Just scan the first thing that pops up. Just be really crisp in your messaging and be really crisp in your messaging and be really crisp in your messaging and your storytelling. And one kind of your storytelling. And one kind of your storytelling. And one kind of valuable lesson I learned early in my valuable lesson I learned early in my valuable lesson I learned early in my career was when I was working at a hedge career was when I was working at a hedge career was when I was working at a hedge fund and kind of pitching stocks into my fund and kind of pitching stocks into my fund and kind of pitching stocks into my portfolio manager and I go in there like portfolio manager and I go in there like portfolio manager and I go in there like being a former equity research house I being a former equity research house I being a former equity research house I go in and give my whole I was ready to go in and give my whole I was ready to go in and give my whole I was ready to give like my 15minute monologue on XYZ give like my 15minute monologue on XYZ give like my 15minute monologue on XYZ stock and he goes Joel let me stop you stock and he goes Joel let me stop you stock and he goes Joel let me stop you there. If you can't deliver this story there. If you can't deliver this story there. If you can't deliver this story in two minutes then get the blank out of in two minutes then get the blank out of in two minutes then get the blank out of my office. This is not going to work my office. This is not going to work my office. This is not going to work well. So I learned to be really one two well. So I learned to be really one two well. So I learned to be really one two three boom. So I think you know whether three boom. So I think you know whether three boom. So I think you know whether it's on the phone or on an email really it's on the phone or on an email really it's on the phone or on an email really really tight messaging that shows you really tight messaging that shows you really tight messaging that shows you know the story and you can deliver kind know the story and you can deliver kind know the story and you can deliver kind of the nuts and bolts of your product or of the nuts and bolts of your product or of the nuts and bolts of your product or capability or service. That's critical.

capability or service. That's critical. capability or service. That's critical. That is huge advice. I feel like That is huge advice. I feel like That is huge advice. I feel like everybody's going to complain when they everybody's going to complain when they everybody's going to complain when they have that one boss who's like if you have that one boss who's like if you have that one boss who's like if you can't give this to me in two minutes get can't give this to me in two minutes get can't give this to me in two minutes get out of my office. And yet you, me, like out of my office. And yet you, me, like out of my office. And yet you, me, like everybody I know that has a great story everybody I know that has a great story everybody I know that has a great story of like this was this thing that someone of like this was this thing that someone of like this was this thing that someone told me and it actually changed really told me and it actually changed really told me and it actually changed really changed my trajectory. Getting kicked changed my trajectory. Getting kicked changed my trajectory. Getting kicked out of somebody's office because you out of somebody's office because you out of somebody's office because you weren't succinct enough is a good place weren't succinct enough is a good place weren't succinct enough is a good place to start. But like we all need that boss to start. But like we all need that boss to start. But like we all need that boss at some point. I feel like that's at some point. I feel like that's at some point. I feel like that's somehow fallen out of vogue. Giving somehow fallen out of vogue. Giving somehow fallen out of vogue. Giving people that direct feedback, but that's people that direct feedback, but that's people that direct feedback, but that's huge advice. huge advice. huge advice. >> And also listening. You do the talking. >> And also listening. You do the talking. >> And also listening. You do the talking. Let the client talk, hear what their Let the client talk, hear what their Let the client talk, hear what their questions, concerns, motivations are, questions, concerns, motivations are, questions, concerns, motivations are, and use that to inform your dialogue. and use that to inform your dialogue. and use that to inform your dialogue. That's great. That's great. That's great. Once again, thank you to Joel Simkins Once again, thank you to Joel Simkins Once again, thank you to Joel Simkins for joining today's episode of Outfox. for joining today's episode of Outfox. for joining today's episode of Outfox. If you liked what you heard, please If you liked what you heard, please If you liked what you heard, please like, subscribe, and explore even more like, subscribe, and explore even more like, subscribe, and explore even more of the Outfox community by visiting of the Outfox community by visiting of the Outfox community by visiting www.outfoxed.hunter.io. Here is Joel Simkins. That was Matt Thop Here is Joel Simkins. That was Matt Thop and we're out of