Outfoxed podcast by Hunter.io | Ep 11: Kodi McKinney on humor proving you're human in an email

This is Outfox, the podcast brought to This is Outfox, the podcast brought to you by hunter.io, the trusted B2B lead you by hunter.io, the trusted B2B lead you by hunter.io, the trusted B2B lead generation platform built for every generation platform built for every generation platform built for every professional. Get ready for no professional. Get ready for no professional. Get ready for no playbooks, no posturing, and no egos. I playbooks, no posturing, and no egos. I playbooks, no posturing, and no egos. I am your host, Hunter's head of am your host, Hunter's head of am your host, Hunter's head of marketing, James Milson, and my guest marketing, James Milson, and my guest marketing, James Milson, and my guest today is Cody McKini, founder of today is Cody McKini, founder of today is Cody McKini, founder of entertainment marketing agency, Me in entertainment marketing agency, Me in entertainment marketing agency, Me in the Club. Let's get into it. Today we the Club. Let's get into it. Today we the Club. Let's get into it. Today we are joined by Cody McKini who is someone are joined by Cody McKini who is someone are joined by Cody McKini who is someone that I have spent uh a considerable that I have spent uh a considerable that I have spent uh a considerable amount of time talking to in in the last amount of time talking to in in the last amount of time talking to in in the last couple of months and someone that I've couple of months and someone that I've couple of months and someone that I've really kind of grown quite fond of and really kind of grown quite fond of and really kind of grown quite fond of and it's it's someone that we have wanted to it's it's someone that we have wanted to it's it's someone that we have wanted to bring on to the podcast after we spoke bring on to the podcast after we spoke bring on to the podcast after we spoke to uh Spike Johnson early in in the in to uh Spike Johnson early in in the in to uh Spike Johnson early in in the in the show and who was a photojournalist. the show and who was a photojournalist. the show and who was a photojournalist. I think there's a really good um uh a I think there's a really good um uh a I think there's a really good um uh a kind of really good comparison here to kind of really good comparison here to kind of really good comparison here to have between Cody and Spike in their have between Cody and Spike in their have between Cody and Spike in their stories. And so Cody, welcome to Out stories. And so Cody, welcome to Out stories. And so Cody, welcome to Out Fox. Fox. Fox. >> Thank Thanks for having me, James. I >> Thank Thanks for having me, James. I >> Thank Thanks for having me, James. I very much appreciate being here. very much appreciate being here. very much appreciate being here. >> You have one of the more unique uh kind >> You have one of the more unique uh kind >> You have one of the more unique uh kind of stories to to tell our audience, I of stories to to tell our audience, I of stories to to tell our audience, I think, on Outf Fox. And one of the think, on Outf Fox. And one of the think, on Outf Fox. And one of the things that really I enjoyed over the things that really I enjoyed over the things that really I enjoyed over the last couple of, you know, times that last couple of, you know, times that last couple of, you know, times that we've spoken is just hearing about we've spoken is just hearing about we've spoken is just hearing about you're from a a media and entertainment you're from a a media and entertainment you're from a a media and entertainment background. And that that is something background. And that that is something background. And that that is something that we don't typically um hear much of that we don't typically um hear much of that we don't typically um hear much of when it comes to things like you know when it comes to things like you know when it comes to things like you know lead generation. Tell us a little bit lead generation. Tell us a little bit lead generation. Tell us a little bit about about me in the club.

about about me in the club. about about me in the club. >> Well, you know, I I will say I I do come >> Well, you know, I I will say I I do come >> Well, you know, I I will say I I do come from that kind of entertainment from that kind of entertainment from that kind of entertainment background where friends of mine used to background where friends of mine used to background where friends of mine used to come to me and be like, "So, what do you come to me and be like, "So, what do you come to me and be like, "So, what do you do? How is your job real when I was do? How is your job real when I was do? How is your job real when I was doing radio promotion 15 years ago, much doing radio promotion 15 years ago, much doing radio promotion 15 years ago, much less once I gotten through to the point less once I gotten through to the point less once I gotten through to the point of, you know, doing what I do now, which of, you know, doing what I do now, which of, you know, doing what I do now, which is, you know, now what I what I do is is, you know, now what I what I do is is, you know, now what I what I do is I'm a growth marketing expert for I'm a growth marketing expert for I'm a growth marketing expert for companies and artists alike. So, I work companies and artists alike. So, I work companies and artists alike. So, I work with creative businesses on their go to with creative businesses on their go to with creative businesses on their go to market strategy and then help execute market strategy and then help execute market strategy and then help execute them. and that in, you know, in in tech them. and that in, you know, in in tech them. and that in, you know, in in tech and in healthc care and some of these uh and in healthc care and some of these uh and in healthc care and some of these uh some of these more established some of these more established some of these more established businesses that are used to being businesses that are used to being businesses that are used to being scrappy and raising capital, um you scrappy and raising capital, um you scrappy and raising capital, um you know, they they call what I do, you know, they they call what I do, you know, they they call what I do, you know, being a fractional CMO. And in the know, being a fractional CMO. And in the know, being a fractional CMO. And in the music industry, they just they just call music industry, they just they just call music industry, they just they just call it wearing a few hats at once. And this it wearing a few hats at once. And this it wearing a few hats at once. And this is the this is one of those things, you is the this is one of those things, you is the this is one of those things, you know, it's like, yes, I've owned a music know, it's like, yes, I've owned a music know, it's like, yes, I've owned a music marketing agency, uh, you know, with marketing agency, uh, you know, with marketing agency, uh, you know, with with my old business partners, uh, that, with my old business partners, uh, that, with my old business partners, uh, that, you know, I've had that for almost a you know, I've had that for almost a you know, I've had that for almost a decade. And so, you know, I'm not just decade. And so, you know, I'm not just decade. And so, you know, I'm not just somebody off the street who said, "I'm somebody off the street who said, "I'm somebody off the street who said, "I'm going to do this now." But, and I still going to do this now." But, and I still going to do this now." But, and I still know that by the nature of what I do, know that by the nature of what I do, know that by the nature of what I do, people talk to me and they go, "Excuse people talk to me and they go, "Excuse people talk to me and they go, "Excuse me, what's your deal? How is this a how me, what's your deal? How is this a how me, what's your deal? How is this a how is this a thing that you've fallen is this a thing that you've fallen is this a thing that you've fallen into?" It's like, well, this is, you into?" It's like, well, this is, you into?" It's like, well, this is, you know, quite literally what I've wanted know, quite literally what I've wanted know, quite literally what I've wanted to do for my entire life, and so I to do for my entire life, and so I to do for my entire life, and so I continue doing it.

continue doing it. continue doing it. >> I I love that. I mean, the fact that you >> I I love that. I mean, the fact that you >> I I love that. I mean, the fact that you you're doing something that you wanted you're doing something that you wanted you're doing something that you wanted to do for the whole, you know, for it's to do for the whole, you know, for it's to do for the whole, you know, for it's the whole of your life, this has been the whole of your life, this has been the whole of your life, this has been something that's been of a passion to something that's been of a passion to something that's been of a passion to you. Um, and for you to be able to you. Um, and for you to be able to you. Um, and for you to be able to answer that way, whereas for me, Cody, answer that way, whereas for me, Cody, answer that way, whereas for me, Cody, when people ask me sort of, um, what when people ask me sort of, um, what when people ask me sort of, um, what have you always wanted to do? And have you always wanted to do? And have you always wanted to do? And obviously, I I gravitate towards obviously, I I gravitate towards obviously, I I gravitate towards marketing eventually, but my background, marketing eventually, but my background, marketing eventually, but my background, I have eight years of education in law. I have eight years of education in law. I have eight years of education in law. >> Okay. and I have two I have two law >> Okay. and I have two I have two law >> Okay. and I have two I have two law degrees, but I'm not practicing law. So, degrees, but I'm not practicing law. So, degrees, but I'm not practicing law. So, you know, for you that that's great. you know, for you that that's great. you know, for you that that's great. Like, this is something that's always Like, this is something that's always Like, this is something that's always meant something to you and you've been meant something to you and you've been meant something to you and you've been able to kind of like turn it into able to kind of like turn it into able to kind of like turn it into something that is more than just a something that is more than just a something that is more than just a passion. It's something that um you passion. It's something that um you passion. It's something that um you know, you're growing and that's why we know, you're growing and that's why we know, you're growing and that's why we love getting people like yourself onto love getting people like yourself onto love getting people like yourself onto this show because I think you have a this show because I think you have a this show because I think you have a very interesting story to tell us about very interesting story to tell us about very interesting story to tell us about growing you know, growing as a person growing you know, growing as a person growing you know, growing as a person and and growing as a growth marketer and and growing as a growth marketer and and growing as a growth marketer specifically in the entertainment specifically in the entertainment specifically in the entertainment industry. Yeah. And you know, I think industry. Yeah. And you know, I think industry. Yeah. And you know, I think that from where I'm sitting, you know, that from where I'm sitting, you know, that from where I'm sitting, you know, there's there there are a lot of there's there there are a lot of there's there there are a lot of interesting analoges between all these interesting analoges between all these interesting analoges between all these different businesses where they that I different businesses where they that I different businesses where they that I that I deal with across a lot of that I deal with across a lot of that I deal with across a lot of different industries where ultimately different industries where ultimately different industries where ultimately everybody's trying to figure out what everybody's trying to figure out what everybody's trying to figure out what the secret sauce is for how they grow the secret sauce is for how they grow the secret sauce is for how they grow their business, right? And there there their business, right? And there there their business, right? And there there are so many people who think they have, are so many people who think they have, are so many people who think they have, you know, the the the get it quick you know, the the the get it quick you know, the the the get it quick solution. Um I on any kind of basis, you solution. Um I on any kind of basis, you solution. Um I on any kind of basis, you know, they they say, "Oh, well, you know, they they say, "Oh, well, you know, they they say, "Oh, well, you know, you can just run meta ads and do know, you can just run meta ads and do know, you can just run meta ads and do everything that you need to do or oh, everything that you need to do or oh, everything that you need to do or oh, you know, like you should find, you you know, like you should find, you you know, like you should find, you know, these these bot armies to focus on

know, these these bot armies to focus on know, these these bot armies to focus on Reddit for you with accounts that have Reddit for you with accounts that have Reddit for you with accounts that have been left dormant for six years so that been left dormant for six years so that been left dormant for six years so that they're not going to get flagged on they're not going to get flagged on they're not going to get flagged on different forums." There are all these different forums." There are all these different forums." There are all these different types of little hacks that, different types of little hacks that, different types of little hacks that, you know, become popular in different you know, become popular in different you know, become popular in different parts of the marketing world. And I parts of the marketing world. And I parts of the marketing world. And I really do think what it comes down to, really do think what it comes down to, really do think what it comes down to, and I know that we're going to be and I know that we're going to be and I know that we're going to be talking about this a good bit, is it talking about this a good bit, is it talking about this a good bit, is it really does come down to how you make really does come down to how you make really does come down to how you make people feel and how you do what you can people feel and how you do what you can people feel and how you do what you can to still provide mutual value when you to still provide mutual value when you to still provide mutual value when you have conversations with new people and have conversations with new people and have conversations with new people and come to them from a perspective of how come to them from a perspective of how come to them from a perspective of how do I leverage this into something bigger do I leverage this into something bigger do I leverage this into something bigger for everybody? And and it's not the the for everybody? And and it's not the the for everybody? And and it's not the the sort of thing that you can easily sort of thing that you can easily sort of thing that you can easily automate. It's the sort of thing that automate. It's the sort of thing that automate. It's the sort of thing that you have to be willing to um to do and you have to be willing to um to do and you have to be willing to um to do and then you have to be, you know, obviously then you have to be, you know, obviously then you have to be, you know, obviously open to tools to help you do that, open to tools to help you do that, open to tools to help you do that, >> right? And and I think that why uh I >> right? And and I think that why uh I >> right? And and I think that why uh I think why we've got along so well in our think why we've got along so well in our think why we've got along so well in our conversations, Cody, is that from my conversations, Cody, is that from my conversations, Cody, is that from my perspective and I was talking to a perspective and I was talking to a perspective and I was talking to a colleague about this recently uh as a colleague about this recently uh as a colleague about this recently uh as a B2B marketer, it's almost like you have B2B marketer, it's almost like you have B2B marketer, it's almost like you have a box you have to sit inside. You can't a box you have to sit inside. You can't a box you have to sit inside. You can't be too creative. You can't be too be too creative. You can't be too be too creative. You can't be too personal. Like those seem to be the personal. Like those seem to be the personal. Like those seem to be the unwritten rules. Whereas I feel like unwritten rules. Whereas I feel like unwritten rules. Whereas I feel like what you're going to share today is is what you're going to share today is is what you're going to share today is is going to help marketers that are going to help marketers that are going to help marketers that are listening, founders that are listening, listening, founders that are listening, listening, founders that are listening, growth marketers even, you know, being growth marketers even, you know, being growth marketers even, you know, being very specific to think outside of the very specific to think outside of the very specific to think outside of the box and to your point, think about how box and to your point, think about how box and to your point, think about how what we're doing, no matter what what we're doing, no matter what what we're doing, no matter what industry we're serving, is actually industry we're serving, is actually industry we're serving, is actually trying to make a human connection. And I

trying to make a human connection. And I trying to make a human connection. And I think that is that is something that I' think that is that is something that I' think that is that is something that I' I've would love to kind of get your take I've would love to kind of get your take I've would love to kind of get your take on. Like I think that's a great place to on. Like I think that's a great place to on. Like I think that's a great place to start is really sort of how what what start is really sort of how what what start is really sort of how what what are the challenges that you face in are the challenges that you face in are the challenges that you face in terms of you know talking to artists terms of you know talking to artists terms of you know talking to artists talking to people who are in the talking to people who are in the talking to people who are in the entertainment industry and and helping entertainment industry and and helping entertainment industry and and helping them with promoting themselves like is them with promoting themselves like is them with promoting themselves like is that something they're comfortable with? that something they're comfortable with? that something they're comfortable with? Do they have the like the business Do they have the like the business Do they have the like the business acumen to know what they need to be acumen to know what they need to be acumen to know what they need to be doing? What do you find? doing? What do you find? doing? What do you find? >> I you know I think there's there there's >> I you know I think there's there there's >> I you know I think there's there there's a lot of different things that you see. a lot of different things that you see. a lot of different things that you see. You know, I think that one of the things You know, I think that one of the things You know, I think that one of the things that I focus on a lot with artists that that I focus on a lot with artists that that I focus on a lot with artists that I work with is helping either nurture I work with is helping either nurture I work with is helping either nurture that business acumen or develop it if that business acumen or develop it if that business acumen or develop it if they uh you know, if it's something that they uh you know, if it's something that they uh you know, if it's something that they're they're open to. If that's not they're they're open to. If that's not they're they're open to. If that's not something they have, that's okay because something they have, that's okay because something they have, that's okay because we haven't necessarily asked artists to we haven't necessarily asked artists to we haven't necessarily asked artists to do the entire thing from from top to do the entire thing from from top to do the entire thing from from top to bottom until very recently in the music bottom until very recently in the music bottom until very recently in the music industry. You know, it really it really industry. You know, it really it really industry. You know, it really it really is with the advent of social media and is with the advent of social media and is with the advent of social media and the modern influencer economy that we've the modern influencer economy that we've the modern influencer economy that we've put artists role of, yeah, you know, you put artists role of, yeah, you know, you put artists role of, yeah, you know, you should be doing everything yourself and should be doing everything yourself and should be doing everything yourself and you should be able to, you know, you should be able to, you know, you should be able to, you know, constantly post content with very constantly post content with very constantly post content with very minimal supervision that's still minimal supervision that's still minimal supervision that's still productive for what you're doing while productive for what you're doing while productive for what you're doing while also, you know, sitting down and writing also, you know, sitting down and writing also, you know, sitting down and writing fulllength albums. And it's a it's a fulllength albums. And it's a it's a fulllength albums. And it's a it's a it's a really strange position to be it's a really strange position to be it's a really strange position to be putting an artist in without any access putting an artist in without any access putting an artist in without any access to business training. You know, I I to business training. You know, I I to business training. You know, I I don't think that I I don't think that we don't think that I I don't think that we don't think that I I don't think that we expect that of traditional startups. You

expect that of traditional startups. You expect that of traditional startups. You know, startups, you have, you know, you know, startups, you have, you know, you know, startups, you have, you know, you have incubators, you have lunch and have incubators, you have lunch and have incubators, you have lunch and learns, you have fancy breakfasts where learns, you have fancy breakfasts where learns, you have fancy breakfasts where you get to meet other startup people. you get to meet other startup people. you get to meet other startup people. I'm going to one of those next Tuesday. I'm going to one of those next Tuesday. I'm going to one of those next Tuesday. And I'm sitting here thinking, man, you And I'm sitting here thinking, man, you And I'm sitting here thinking, man, you know, th this is imagine if you had nice know, th this is imagine if you had nice know, th this is imagine if you had nice little uh get together breakfast for little uh get together breakfast for little uh get together breakfast for people who were just musicians in the people who were just musicians in the people who were just musicians in the creator economy. But, you know, that's creator economy. But, you know, that's creator economy. But, you know, that's that's not really something that that that's not really something that that that's not really something that that happens. you know, we we put a lot of we happens. you know, we we put a lot of we happens. you know, we we put a lot of we we do this thing where we expect we do this thing where we expect we do this thing where we expect musicians in many cases to be full, musicians in many cases to be full, musicians in many cases to be full, you know, just full service you know, just full service you know, just full service entrepreneurs is really the best way I entrepreneurs is really the best way I entrepreneurs is really the best way I can explain it without actually giving can explain it without actually giving can explain it without actually giving them the tools to do so. We both look at them the tools to do so. We both look at them the tools to do so. We both look at it as, oh, well, that's a that's a nice it as, oh, well, that's a that's a nice it as, oh, well, that's a that's a nice hobby you have and also, okay, well, how hobby you have and also, okay, well, how hobby you have and also, okay, well, how do you make revenue doing it? And, you do you make revenue doing it? And, you do you make revenue doing it? And, you know, it's it becomes this weird know, it's it becomes this weird know, it's it becomes this weird double-edged sword where we both don't double-edged sword where we both don't double-edged sword where we both don't take it seriously and also, you know, take it seriously and also, you know, take it seriously and also, you know, ask them to take it incredibly ask them to take it incredibly ask them to take it incredibly seriously.

seriously. seriously. >> I I think that what you're saying here, >> I I think that what you're saying here, >> I I think that what you're saying here, Cody, is something that is going to Cody, is something that is going to Cody, is something that is going to resonate with with our listeners because resonate with with our listeners because resonate with with our listeners because we do have a lot of solarreneurs, a lot we do have a lot of solarreneurs, a lot we do have a lot of solarreneurs, a lot of side hustlers that are listening of side hustlers that are listening of side hustlers that are listening right now. And um and you know I I've right now. And um and you know I I've right now. And um and you know I I've gone through phases as well where I've gone through phases as well where I've gone through phases as well where I've kind of done side hustles and yes I I kind of done side hustles and yes I I kind of done side hustles and yes I I have I have a a bit of advantage in have I have a a bit of advantage in have I have a a bit of advantage in terms of I have the business acumen but terms of I have the business acumen but terms of I have the business acumen but maybe not the same level of creativity maybe not the same level of creativity maybe not the same level of creativity as someone else in you know who who as someone else in you know who who as someone else in you know who who you're who you're helping. But I think you're who you're helping. But I think you're who you're helping. But I think though what would be great to to hear is though what would be great to to hear is though what would be great to to hear is sort of how do you approach sort of how do you approach sort of how do you approach providing that that education and those providing that that education and those providing that that education and those tools to those people that perhaps are tools to those people that perhaps are tools to those people that perhaps are not feeling comfortable because I I know not feeling comfortable because I I know not feeling comfortable because I I know for a fact that people listening there's for a fact that people listening there's for a fact that people listening there's going to be a good segment that will going to be a good segment that will going to be a good segment that will feel the same and and that's you know feel the same and and that's you know feel the same and and that's you know something that's definitely going to be something that's definitely going to be something that's definitely going to be applicable regardless of the fact that applicable regardless of the fact that applicable regardless of the fact that you know obviously you're helping more you know obviously you're helping more you know obviously you're helping more creative types. So, one of the things creative types. So, one of the things creative types. So, one of the things that I do from the jump, and keep in that I do from the jump, and keep in that I do from the jump, and keep in mind I've worked with literally mind I've worked with literally mind I've worked with literally thousands of artists in my career, one thousands of artists in my career, one thousands of artists in my career, one of the first things I do from the jump of the first things I do from the jump of the first things I do from the jump is, you know, I avoid all pretense if is, you know, I avoid all pretense if is, you know, I avoid all pretense if I'm working with a new person. You know, I'm working with a new person. You know, I'm working with a new person. You know, the the assumption that, you know, the the assumption that, you know, the the assumption that, you know, there's, you know, one way to do, you there's, you know, one way to do, you there's, you know, one way to do, you know, a record roll out or one way to know, a record roll out or one way to know, a record roll out or one way to build somebody's business for the next build somebody's business for the next build somebody's business for the next year to a year and a half of their life year to a year and a half of their life year to a year and a half of their life and build a go to market strategy for and build a go to market strategy for and build a go to market strategy for them. that it's just a logical fallacy them. that it's just a logical fallacy them. that it's just a logical fallacy and we wouldn't believe that if we were and we wouldn't believe that if we were and we wouldn't believe that if we were talking to startups. So, we can't really talking to startups. So, we can't really talking to startups. So, we can't really believe it for people who are putting believe it for people who are putting believe it for people who are putting music on the internet. It's it's a silly

music on the internet. It's it's a silly music on the internet. It's it's a silly thing to do. You know, we're we're thing to do. You know, we're we're thing to do. You know, we're we're asking them to follow through marketing asking them to follow through marketing asking them to follow through marketing channels that just have a slightly channels that just have a slightly channels that just have a slightly different shape from what, you know, different shape from what, you know, different shape from what, you know, people who aren't in the music industry people who aren't in the music industry people who aren't in the music industry are used to. So, that's one of the first are used to. So, that's one of the first are used to. So, that's one of the first things. And so I always come to it from things. And so I always come to it from things. And so I always come to it from the approach of how do I make something the approach of how do I make something the approach of how do I make something that is easily digestible that you can that is easily digestible that you can that is easily digestible that you can refer to repeatedly and still actually refer to repeatedly and still actually refer to repeatedly and still actually help you with it and guide you through help you with it and guide you through help you with it and guide you through it in a way where we can have real it in a way where we can have real it in a way where we can have real conversations together. And what I conversations together. And what I conversations together. And what I usually do when I'm starting with a new usually do when I'm starting with a new usually do when I'm starting with a new artist is I I have something called the artist is I I have something called the artist is I I have something called the discovery package that I personally run discovery package that I personally run discovery package that I personally run where and and it it is not, you know, where and and it it is not, you know, where and and it it is not, you know, the sort of quintessential, you know, the sort of quintessential, you know, the sort of quintessential, you know, coaching vehicle or whatever. I I I take coaching vehicle or whatever. I I I take coaching vehicle or whatever. I I I take it quite a bit more seriously than that. it quite a bit more seriously than that. it quite a bit more seriously than that. Um I don't go from the perspective of Um I don't go from the perspective of Um I don't go from the perspective of yes, you know, I'm on the phone with you yes, you know, I'm on the phone with you yes, you know, I'm on the phone with you and this is that this is the time that and this is that this is the time that and this is that this is the time that it takes. it's, you know, I'm helping it takes. it's, you know, I'm helping it takes. it's, you know, I'm helping build something with you and this is the build something with you and this is the build something with you and this is the time that it takes. So, what I do is time that it takes. So, what I do is time that it takes. So, what I do is first of all, I go through everything first of all, I go through everything first of all, I go through everything they have that's public facing and I, they have that's public facing and I, they have that's public facing and I, you know, I put notes together with it.

you know, I put notes together with it. you know, I put notes together with it. I put all of it into a report similar to I put all of it into a report similar to I put all of it into a report similar to like what you would do if you were an like what you would do if you were an like what you would do if you were an agency with a brand new client. Um, and agency with a brand new client. Um, and agency with a brand new client. Um, and that client was, you know, a a ticketing that client was, you know, a a ticketing that client was, you know, a a ticketing company or something, let's say. Um, but company or something, let's say. Um, but company or something, let's say. Um, but you the difference is that first of all, you the difference is that first of all, you the difference is that first of all, I'm able to do this in, you know, a I'm able to do this in, you know, a I'm able to do this in, you know, a matter of hours. Um, whereas if you're matter of hours. Um, whereas if you're matter of hours. Um, whereas if you're an agency, you know, sometimes takes you an agency, you know, sometimes takes you an agency, you know, sometimes takes you a couple months to do that sort of thing a couple months to do that sort of thing a couple months to do that sort of thing where you're going through all the where you're going through all the where you're going through all the different branding elements and that different branding elements and that different branding elements and that sort of stuff. With me, it's I know from sort of stuff. With me, it's I know from sort of stuff. With me, it's I know from looking at these things very quickly, looking at these things very quickly, looking at these things very quickly, what's working on a flow level, what what's working on a flow level, what what's working on a flow level, what doesn't, and so I can put all that doesn't, and so I can put all that doesn't, and so I can put all that together, make these suggestions. Then together, make these suggestions. Then together, make these suggestions. Then what we do is we do an actual follow-up what we do is we do an actual follow-up what we do is we do an actual follow-up call about it. And after that, we go to call about it. And after that, we go to call about it. And after that, we go to a second stage, which is the strategy a second stage, which is the strategy a second stage, which is the strategy portion where I talk them through portion where I talk them through portion where I talk them through everything they're going to need for everything they're going to need for everything they're going to need for actually having a real go to market actually having a real go to market actually having a real go to market strategy they can do. And that's not strategy they can do. And that's not strategy they can do. And that's not just, you know, the the action items just, you know, the the action items just, you know, the the action items from the previous report by any stretch from the previous report by any stretch from the previous report by any stretch of the imagination. And that's, you of the imagination. And that's, you of the imagination. And that's, you know, you you've got touring and know, you you've got touring and know, you you've got touring and mobility strategy that you need to mobility strategy that you need to mobility strategy that you need to figure out if you're an artist, figure out if you're an artist, figure out if you're an artist, especially if you don't have your own especially if you don't have your own especially if you don't have your own agent, which most artists don't. Um, you agent, which most artists don't. Um, you agent, which most artists don't. Um, you know, you've got the actual timeline know, you've got the actual timeline know, you've got the actual timeline that you should be thinking out about that you should be thinking out about that you should be thinking out about for when you're releasing records, when for when you're releasing records, when for when you're releasing records, when you're releasing new songs, what you're you're releasing new songs, what you're you're releasing new songs, what you're doing to gear up for other things you're doing to gear up for other things you're doing to gear up for other things you're doing, how that all interplays. And you doing, how that all interplays. And you doing, how that all interplays. And you know, one component of that is that I know, one component of that is that I know, one component of that is that I also create a bit of a an easy, you

also create a bit of a an easy, you also create a bit of a an easy, you know, reference sheet where I just line know, reference sheet where I just line know, reference sheet where I just line out, you know, what I think your ideal out, you know, what I think your ideal out, you know, what I think your ideal customer profile is, how you would find customer profile is, how you would find customer profile is, how you would find one, and you know, try to get people to one, and you know, try to get people to one, and you know, try to get people to kind of focus on, you know, in the kind of focus on, you know, in the kind of focus on, you know, in the marketing jargon, we call it the selling marketing jargon, we call it the selling marketing jargon, we call it the selling proposition, but for a musician, they're proposition, but for a musician, they're proposition, but for a musician, they're going, going, going, >> "What are you talking about? There's >> "What are you talking about? There's >> "What are you talking about? There's millions of artists." It's like, well, millions of artists." It's like, well, millions of artists." It's like, well, sure, but I bet you have a very specific sure, but I bet you have a very specific sure, but I bet you have a very specific vantage point and a very specific view vantage point and a very specific view vantage point and a very specific view point. We're going to draw it out. And I point. We're going to draw it out. And I point. We're going to draw it out. And I actually try to, you know, work with actually try to, you know, work with actually try to, you know, work with them on building out how their revenue them on building out how their revenue them on building out how their revenue streams would look and how to look at streams would look and how to look at streams would look and how to look at things the way eventually they're going things the way eventually they're going things the way eventually they're going direct to fan and everything that direct to fan and everything that direct to fan and everything that they're thinking about with with they're thinking about with with they're thinking about with with uploading to Spotify or Apple Music or uploading to Spotify or Apple Music or uploading to Spotify or Apple Music or YouTube. All this stuff is perceived as YouTube. All this stuff is perceived as YouTube. All this stuff is perceived as what they need to do on a marketing what they need to do on a marketing what they need to do on a marketing basis to advance their overall goal of basis to advance their overall goal of basis to advance their overall goal of being able to have a sustainable being able to have a sustainable being able to have a sustainable business and continue making music. business and continue making music. business and continue making music. Because I will tell you the really Because I will tell you the really Because I will tell you the really difficult thing about the music industry difficult thing about the music industry difficult thing about the music industry is that in in my opinion the the truest is that in in my opinion the the truest is that in in my opinion the the truest definition of what makes a middle class definition of what makes a middle class definition of what makes a middle class musician is someone who's not losing musician is someone who's not losing musician is someone who's not losing money doing it. So money doing it. So money doing it. So >> just getting to that threshold versus >> just getting to that threshold versus >> just getting to that threshold versus what you and I would associate as being what you and I would associate as being what you and I would associate as being a middle class, you know, worker in the a middle class, you know, worker in the a middle class, you know, worker in the United States, you know, somebody, you United States, you know, somebody, you United States, you know, somebody, you know, making a enough money to know, making a enough money to know, making a enough money to comfortably have a roof over their head.

comfortably have a roof over their head. comfortably have a roof over their head. Usually if a musician's making enough Usually if a musician's making enough Usually if a musician's making enough money to have a roof over their head, I money to have a roof over their head, I money to have a roof over their head, I would consider them to be an upper class would consider them to be an upper class would consider them to be an upper class musician. So, there's kind of this musician. So, there's kind of this musician. So, there's kind of this there's kind of this this odd thing that there's kind of this this odd thing that there's kind of this this odd thing that happens where what you're trying to do happens where what you're trying to do happens where what you're trying to do is you're trying to help people play to is you're trying to help people play to is you're trying to help people play to win and not play not to lose because win and not play not to lose because win and not play not to lose because they're usually operating off of super they're usually operating off of super they're usually operating off of super limited income to begin with. And when limited income to begin with. And when limited income to begin with. And when you're operating off of super limited you're operating off of super limited you're operating off of super limited funding and you're not in that position funding and you're not in that position funding and you're not in that position of, oh, I can go, you know, ask the the of, oh, I can go, you know, ask the the of, oh, I can go, you know, ask the the SBA for, you know, a loan for my SBA for, you know, a loan for my SBA for, you know, a loan for my business, you know, because we don't business, you know, because we don't business, you know, because we don't have that kind of establishment yet. You have that kind of establishment yet. You have that kind of establishment yet. You know, know, know, >> most artists have no idea how to how to >> most artists have no idea how to how to >> most artists have no idea how to how to start LLC. Sometimes we work on that. start LLC. Sometimes we work on that. start LLC. Sometimes we work on that. you know, that's these are things that I you know, that's these are things that I you know, that's these are things that I I take a lot of pride on doing together I take a lot of pride on doing together I take a lot of pride on doing together with people where in the entire process with people where in the entire process with people where in the entire process we're, you know, we're going through all we're, you know, we're going through all we're, you know, we're going through all this, we're making sure they have this, we're making sure they have this, we're making sure they have something to refer back to and then re something to refer back to and then re something to refer back to and then re reviewing it. Um, if they decide that reviewing it. Um, if they decide that reviewing it. Um, if they decide that they want, you know, project management they want, you know, project management they want, you know, project management assistance from me to actually put teams assistance from me to actually put teams assistance from me to actually put teams together for them to get some of these together for them to get some of these together for them to get some of these records rolled out, I definitely know records rolled out, I definitely know records rolled out, I definitely know the people. We negotiate that. I try to the people. We negotiate that. I try to the people. We negotiate that. I try to keep as reasonable as I can. When I do keep as reasonable as I can. When I do keep as reasonable as I can. When I do this sort of thing for companies, a lot this sort of thing for companies, a lot this sort of thing for companies, a lot more of it is about business development more of it is about business development more of it is about business development and a lot more about okay well which and a lot more about okay well which and a lot more about okay well which individual people can we get to develop individual people can we get to develop individual people can we get to develop infrastructure for this? How do we infrastructure for this? How do we infrastructure for this? How do we execute having the company at you know X execute having the company at you know X execute having the company at you know X point along Y timeline. You know what point along Y timeline. You know what point along Y timeline. You know what are what are the KPIs that we need to be are what are the KPIs that we need to be are what are the KPIs that we need to be thinking about? You know that looks a

thinking about? You know that looks a thinking about? You know that looks a lot more like what you would expect a lot more like what you would expect a lot more like what you would expect a traditional growth marketing push to traditional growth marketing push to traditional growth marketing push to look like. But when I do it for artists, look like. But when I do it for artists, look like. But when I do it for artists, there is a lot of handholding because there is a lot of handholding because there is a lot of handholding because there has to be. And there's also a there has to be. And there's also a there has to be. And there's also a certain amount of but I can't do certain amount of but I can't do certain amount of but I can't do everything for you. This is me showing everything for you. This is me showing everything for you. This is me showing you how to do it. And I do have people you how to do it. And I do have people you how to do it. And I do have people who get to the end of it and they go, who get to the end of it and they go, who get to the end of it and they go, okay, so you know, can you be my okay, so you know, can you be my okay, so you know, can you be my manager? Like I'm not a 247 manager, manager? Like I'm not a 247 manager, manager? Like I'm not a 247 manager, right? I appreciate the offer. Um, but I right? I appreciate the offer. Um, but I right? I appreciate the offer. Um, but I people in my life to do that. And I people in my life to do that. And I people in my life to do that. And I think ultimately that's kind of that's think ultimately that's kind of that's think ultimately that's kind of that's kind of the the strange tension in what kind of the the strange tension in what kind of the the strange tension in what it is that I do is you know there's a it is that I do is you know there's a it is that I do is you know there's a certain type of person who you know certain type of person who you know certain type of person who you know really benefits massively just from really benefits massively just from really benefits massively just from having the guidance and because nobody's having the guidance and because nobody's having the guidance and because nobody's giving them that guidance and so much of giving them that guidance and so much of giving them that guidance and so much of the industry is held behind you know a the industry is held behind you know a the industry is held behind you know a an opaque curtain for 94% of the people an opaque curtain for 94% of the people an opaque curtain for 94% of the people trying to enter it. And then in addition trying to enter it. And then in addition trying to enter it. And then in addition to those people, I also have the people to those people, I also have the people to those people, I also have the people who are like, "Hey, um, can you help me who are like, "Hey, um, can you help me who are like, "Hey, um, can you help me uh, you know, get past a million uh, you know, get past a million uh, you know, get past a million recurring revenue?" Like, "Yes, sure.

recurring revenue?" Like, "Yes, sure. recurring revenue?" Like, "Yes, sure. Okay, let's have the conversation. Let's Okay, let's have the conversation. Let's Okay, let's have the conversation. Let's see where you're at." You know, and so see where you're at." You know, and so see where you're at." You know, and so those are just inherently different those are just inherently different those are just inherently different things. things. things. >> I I definitely want us to dive into a >> I I definitely want us to dive into a >> I I definitely want us to dive into a little bit of the the more uh B2B little bit of the the more uh B2B little bit of the the more uh B2B support that you give, but I I I I would support that you give, but I I I I would support that you give, but I I I I would love to I would love to try and make an love to I would love to try and make an love to I would love to try and make an analogy. I know that our listeners who analogy. I know that our listeners who analogy. I know that our listeners who are from a SAS background, they are are from a SAS background, they are are from a SAS background, they are facing this almighty headwind which is facing this almighty headwind which is facing this almighty headwind which is AI. I AI has to be in everything. AI has AI. I AI has to be in everything. AI has AI. I AI has to be in everything. AI has to be the leading benefit even though to be the leading benefit even though to be the leading benefit even though it's not a leading feature even though it's not a leading feature even though it's not a leading feature even though it's not. Would you would you say that it's not. Would you would you say that it's not. Would you would you say that for for music artists, you know, if AI for for music artists, you know, if AI for for music artists, you know, if AI is this disruptive um force that is is this disruptive um force that is is this disruptive um force that is essentially changing everything in terms essentially changing everything in terms essentially changing everything in terms of go to market for people in software of go to market for people in software of go to market for people in software companies, how has the introduction of companies, how has the introduction of companies, how has the introduction of streaming platforms altered the advice streaming platforms altered the advice streaming platforms altered the advice and support that you give to those and support that you give to those and support that you give to those artists who clearly need some support, artists who clearly need some support, artists who clearly need some support, but they've got this Goliath that but they've got this Goliath that but they've got this Goliath that they're now having phase that completely they're now having phase that completely they're now having phase that completely alters the uh uh the financials of of alters the uh uh the financials of of alters the uh uh the financials of of everything that you're talking about everything that you're talking about everything that you're talking about helping them with.

helping them with. helping them with. >> And so I have a very close friend of >> And so I have a very close friend of >> And so I have a very close friend of mine who I was catching up with the mine who I was catching up with the mine who I was catching up with the other day and he made in my opinion an other day and he made in my opinion an other day and he made in my opinion an amazing point that sums up a lot about amazing point that sums up a lot about amazing point that sums up a lot about new tech and I actually elaborate a new tech and I actually elaborate a new tech and I actually elaborate a little bit on this conversation in my little bit on this conversation in my little bit on this conversation in my newsletter, the Club List, which you can newsletter, the Club List, which you can newsletter, the Club List, which you can get for free at the clublist.net. Um he get for free at the clublist.net. Um he get for free at the clublist.net. Um he says to me the thing about new says to me the thing about new says to me the thing about new technology is it empowers and it also technology is it empowers and it also technology is it empowers and it also takes away and these are things that we takes away and these are things that we takes away and these are things that we have to keep in mind at all times you have to keep in mind at all times you have to keep in mind at all times you know when you have a new tech know when you have a new tech know when you have a new tech advancement and I think that in the advancement and I think that in the advancement and I think that in the creative industries you know where where creative industries you know where where creative industries you know where where income is sometimes shakier for the income is sometimes shakier for the income is sometimes shakier for the people who are actually performing until people who are actually performing until people who are actually performing until they're in that upper upper class um you they're in that upper upper class um you they're in that upper upper class um you know in these creative industries a lot know in these creative industries a lot know in these creative industries a lot of the ways in which you get revenue are of the ways in which you get revenue are of the ways in which you get revenue are inherently a little bit insecure. You inherently a little bit insecure. You inherently a little bit insecure. You know, you're not, you know, doing 9 to 5 know, you're not, you know, doing 9 to 5 know, you're not, you know, doing 9 to 5 work. There's inherently more chaos in work. There's inherently more chaos in work. There's inherently more chaos in in the mix. And that's true with many in the mix. And that's true with many in the mix. And that's true with many parts of the music business. That's true parts of the music business. That's true parts of the music business. That's true with venue operators who, you know, they with venue operators who, you know, they with venue operators who, you know, they have margins that have only gotten have margins that have only gotten have margins that have only gotten tougher since 2020. Um, that's true with tougher since 2020. Um, that's true with tougher since 2020. Um, that's true with record labels where, you know, the the record labels where, you know, the the record labels where, you know, the the need to go through a record label just need to go through a record label just need to go through a record label just to have yourself heard changes instantly to have yourself heard changes instantly to have yourself heard changes instantly upon the uh the the advent of streaming.

upon the uh the the advent of streaming. upon the uh the the advent of streaming. And you know the the increased And you know the the increased And you know the the increased importance of record distributors moving importance of record distributors moving importance of record distributors moving into the digital distribution era where into the digital distribution era where into the digital distribution era where where now you know record labels still where now you know record labels still where now you know record labels still serve incredibly important purpose for serve incredibly important purpose for serve incredibly important purpose for for branding and marketing and support for branding and marketing and support for branding and marketing and support of artists but their deals have gotten of artists but their deals have gotten of artists but their deals have gotten artist friendlier over time and there artist friendlier over time and there artist friendlier over time and there are many reasons for that. You know, the are many reasons for that. You know, the are many reasons for that. You know, the the thing about this is we're in this the thing about this is we're in this the thing about this is we're in this era where era where era where the advent of streaming changed how the advent of streaming changed how the advent of streaming changed how revenue comes to an artist massively. revenue comes to an artist massively. revenue comes to an artist massively. Um, the advent of streaming did not Um, the advent of streaming did not Um, the advent of streaming did not completely remove revenue from an completely remove revenue from an completely remove revenue from an artist, you know, record retail. artist, you know, record retail. artist, you know, record retail. However, what it changed was the way in However, what it changed was the way in However, what it changed was the way in which record retail is even done in the which record retail is even done in the which record retail is even done in the first place. And a lot of people have first place. And a lot of people have first place. And a lot of people have not adapted to it and a lot of people not adapted to it and a lot of people not adapted to it and a lot of people don't see it for what it is. You know, I don't see it for what it is. You know, I don't see it for what it is. You know, I a lot of times now, you know, people a lot of times now, you know, people a lot of times now, you know, people will, you know, focus entirely on what will, you know, focus entirely on what will, you know, focus entirely on what their record is going to do on Spotify, their record is going to do on Spotify, their record is going to do on Spotify, for example, because they want extra for example, because they want extra for example, because they want extra playlisting or they want, you know, playlisting or they want, you know, playlisting or they want, you know, extra attention or they want to be in extra attention or they want to be in extra attention or they want to be in the discover weekly algorithm with the discover weekly algorithm with the discover weekly algorithm with Spotify, which by the way looks a lot Spotify, which by the way looks a lot Spotify, which by the way looks a lot like how what we would define in like how what we would define in like how what we would define in marketing terms as artificial marketing terms as artificial marketing terms as artificial intelligence operates. um you know the intelligence operates. um you know the intelligence operates. um you know the these these sorts of things have always these these sorts of things have always these these sorts of things have always been of great importance to artists been of great importance to artists been of great importance to artists because they're chasing after this because they're chasing after this because they're chasing after this number but they don't understand what number but they don't understand what number but they don't understand what the number means. And I think that one the number means. And I think that one the number means. And I think that one of the most uh intriguing and um of the most uh intriguing and um of the most uh intriguing and um arguably, arguably, arguably, you know, a bit insidious if you're not

you know, a bit insidious if you're not you know, a bit insidious if you're not really thinking about what what it means really thinking about what what it means really thinking about what what it means for you. um features that Spotify has, for you. um features that Spotify has, for you. um features that Spotify has, for example, is the streams that you can for example, is the streams that you can for example, is the streams that you can see that are a total of each song next see that are a total of each song next see that are a total of each song next to every song that an artist has as long to every song that an artist has as long to every song that an artist has as long as they've had over a,000 plays. as they've had over a,000 plays. as they've had over a,000 plays. Anything under 1,000 plays, they don't Anything under 1,000 plays, they don't Anything under 1,000 plays, they don't show. Those those songs aren't monetized show. Those those songs aren't monetized show. Those those songs aren't monetized with for royalties, which is its own with for royalties, which is its own with for royalties, which is its own discussion and controversy, discussion and controversy, discussion and controversy, understandably. And instead you have the understandably. And instead you have the understandably. And instead you have the situation where you have one local situation where you have one local situation where you have one local artist looking at another and going, artist looking at another and going, artist looking at another and going, "Well, you know, we're getting more "Well, you know, we're getting more "Well, you know, we're getting more people or shows than this band, but they people or shows than this band, but they people or shows than this band, but they have 100,000 more streams on Spotify have 100,000 more streams on Spotify have 100,000 more streams on Spotify than we do." Now, we all know in this than we do." Now, we all know in this than we do." Now, we all know in this era that focusing on that is a death era that focusing on that is a death era that focusing on that is a death trap. And the reason it's a death trap trap. And the reason it's a death trap trap. And the reason it's a death trap is because what you'll get paid from is because what you'll get paid from is because what you'll get paid from having, you know, from from having, you having, you know, from from having, you having, you know, from from having, you know, a million Spotify streams is a know, a million Spotify streams is a know, a million Spotify streams is a pittance of what you would get paid if pittance of what you would get paid if pittance of what you would get paid if you sold, you know, a 200 copies of a you sold, you know, a 200 copies of a you sold, you know, a 200 copies of a vinyl. And that is one of the things vinyl. And that is one of the things vinyl. And that is one of the things that is so easily missed when you're new that is so easily missed when you're new that is so easily missed when you're new to the business and kind of figuring to the business and kind of figuring to the business and kind of figuring things out. And one way that I have seen things out. And one way that I have seen things out. And one way that I have seen people navigating this, and this is people navigating this, and this is people navigating this, and this is something that I'm increasingly steering something that I'm increasingly steering something that I'm increasingly steering my clients towards, is if they're going my clients towards, is if they're going my clients towards, is if they're going to have a new record, what I encourage to have a new record, what I encourage to have a new record, what I encourage them to do is to go through a service them to do is to go through a service them to do is to go through a service like Band Camp or even or something else like Band Camp or even or something else like Band Camp or even or something else like this that allows you to do, you

like this that allows you to do, you like this that allows you to do, you know, direct to fan sales where you have know, direct to fan sales where you have know, direct to fan sales where you have a name your price where you have to pay a name your price where you have to pay a name your price where you have to pay at least a dollar or whatever the at least a dollar or whatever the at least a dollar or whatever the minimum is. But um you know I and I for minimum is. But um you know I and I for minimum is. But um you know I and I for the record I advise having that be a the record I advise having that be a the record I advise having that be a minimum $7 so that you you have retail minimum $7 so that you you have retail minimum $7 so that you you have retail compliance. Anyways you ring you know compliance. Anyways you ring you know compliance. Anyways you ring you know the the the biggest thing with this is the the the biggest thing with this is the the the biggest thing with this is that if you're doing this and then four that if you're doing this and then four that if you're doing this and then four weeks later you turn around and the weeks later you turn around and the weeks later you turn around and the records on streaming that's great. records on streaming that's great. records on streaming that's great. You're using streaming as a marketing You're using streaming as a marketing You're using streaming as a marketing tool. But if you what you're doing is tool. But if you what you're doing is tool. But if you what you're doing is you're coming in and saying, "Hey, I'm you're coming in and saying, "Hey, I'm you're coming in and saying, "Hey, I'm going to do my record as a simultaneous going to do my record as a simultaneous going to do my record as a simultaneous release everywhere as a developing release everywhere as a developing release everywhere as a developing artist, artist, artist, it just doesn't work out in your favor." it just doesn't work out in your favor." it just doesn't work out in your favor." You know, I I had a I had a band that I You know, I I had a I had a band that I You know, I I had a I had a band that I was personally in um in 2020, and you was personally in um in 2020, and you was personally in um in 2020, and you know, I have the advantage of well, I know, I have the advantage of well, I know, I have the advantage of well, I understand what it is to be a marketer, understand what it is to be a marketer, understand what it is to be a marketer, but I don't want to put too much of my but I don't want to put too much of my but I don't want to put too much of my thumb on the scale, so why don't we just thumb on the scale, so why don't we just thumb on the scale, so why don't we just do this in the way that's most do this in the way that's most do this in the way that's most sustainable? I don't care about having sustainable? I don't care about having sustainable? I don't care about having flashy stats. I just want us to have flashy stats. I just want us to have flashy stats. I just want us to have something lasting. So, what we did was something lasting. So, what we did was something lasting. So, what we did was we did all of our releases through Band we did all of our releases through Band we did all of our releases through Band Camp and we did it in such a way that we Camp and we did it in such a way that we Camp and we did it in such a way that we were still going to streaming within a were still going to streaming within a were still going to streaming within a week, but yeah, in some cases within a week, but yeah, in some cases within a week, but yeah, in some cases within a day. I think we did the album a day day. I think we did the album a day day. I think we did the album a day ahead of time on Band Camp. And I'll ahead of time on Band Camp. And I'll ahead of time on Band Camp. And I'll have you know, we made back all of our have you know, we made back all of our have you know, we made back all of our recording costs at the end of the day recording costs at the end of the day recording costs at the end of the day through Band Camp. It was pretty through Band Camp. It was pretty through Band Camp. It was pretty awesome. And awesome. And awesome. And >> yeah, >> yeah, >> yeah, >> that and that was not off of, you know, >> that and that was not off of, you know, >> that and that was not off of, you know, some kind of crazy um some kind of of

some kind of crazy um some kind of of some kind of crazy um some kind of of crazy influx of, you know, followers. It crazy influx of, you know, followers. It crazy influx of, you know, followers. It was because friends of ours had decided was because friends of ours had decided was because friends of ours had decided that they wanted to spend $20 on the that they wanted to spend $20 on the that they wanted to spend $20 on the record. Hadn't wanted to spend, you record. Hadn't wanted to spend, you record. Hadn't wanted to spend, you know, $25, $15 for an album that had know, $25, $15 for an album that had know, $25, $15 for an album that had nine tracks and was priced at seven. And nine tracks and was priced at seven. And nine tracks and was priced at seven. And that's that's one of the things that and that's that's one of the things that and that's that's one of the things that and that that is, you know, I mean, this is that that is, you know, I mean, this is that that is, you know, I mean, this is a strategy from five years ago. The a strategy from five years ago. The a strategy from five years ago. The these strategies now are becoming more these strategies now are becoming more these strategies now are becoming more common place because so many artists common place because so many artists common place because so many artists don't realize how much they're leaving don't realize how much they're leaving don't realize how much they're leaving on the table. And I think for years they on the table. And I think for years they on the table. And I think for years they had been so focused on comparing had been so focused on comparing had been so focused on comparing themselves to people down the street themselves to people down the street themselves to people down the street that they were missing actually thinking that they were missing actually thinking that they were missing actually thinking about what worked for their business. about what worked for their business. about what worked for their business. >> Yeah. I we we could spend the whole >> Yeah. I we we could spend the whole >> Yeah. I we we could spend the whole episode talking about this. I think it episode talking about this. I think it episode talking about this. I think it the fact that it it's always easy to, the fact that it it's always easy to, the fact that it it's always easy to, you know, try and keep up with the you know, try and keep up with the you know, try and keep up with the Joneses, right? Like it's it's so much Joneses, right? Like it's it's so much Joneses, right? Like it's it's so much easier to compare the have nots to the easier to compare the have nots to the easier to compare the have nots to the halves. And I think that what you said halves. And I think that what you said halves. And I think that what you said there, Cody, about, you know, the fact there, Cody, about, you know, the fact there, Cody, about, you know, the fact that you took a different approach and that you took a different approach and that you took a different approach and it might not have been revolutionary, it might not have been revolutionary, it might not have been revolutionary, but you know, sometimes just being but you know, sometimes just being but you know, sometimes just being different than is better than. And and I different than is better than. And and I different than is better than. And and I think for our listeners, there's think for our listeners, there's think for our listeners, there's something that that I I uh I think about something that that I I uh I think about something that that I I uh I think about a lot is and this isn't conf confined to a lot is and this isn't conf confined to a lot is and this isn't conf confined to cold email, but if you think about your cold email, but if you think about your cold email, but if you think about your entire, you know, your marketing mix, if entire, you know, your marketing mix, if entire, you know, your marketing mix, if if everyone's on LinkedIn and they are

if everyone's on LinkedIn and they are if everyone's on LinkedIn and they are bombarding news feeds with sales pitches bombarding news feeds with sales pitches bombarding news feeds with sales pitches and then also in DMs, why would you go and then also in DMs, why would you go and then also in DMs, why would you go and play in that arena? maybe you should and play in that arena? maybe you should and play in that arena? maybe you should do something more authentic, which is do something more authentic, which is do something more authentic, which is exactly what Cody did with with his exactly what Cody did with with his exactly what Cody did with with his band, which is doing something band, which is doing something band, which is doing something completely authentic to them and completely authentic to them and completely authentic to them and something that that that was meaningful something that that that was meaningful something that that that was meaningful to them versus going straight to where to them versus going straight to where to them versus going straight to where all the noise was. I to me I'm not going all the noise was. I to me I'm not going all the noise was. I to me I'm not going to say it's genius because I think like to say it's genius because I think like to say it's genius because I think like clearly it's something that someone clearly it's something that someone clearly it's something that someone thought about before, but it's a very thought about before, but it's a very thought about before, but it's a very it's a very clever way to approach it. it's a very clever way to approach it. it's a very clever way to approach it. >> I I would say slightly slightly better >> I I would say slightly slightly better >> I I would say slightly slightly better than average thinking at most. I think than average thinking at most. I think than average thinking at most. I think the genius would be strong. I'm far from the genius would be strong. I'm far from the genius would be strong. I'm far from the first person to do it. Um, but I I the first person to do it. Um, but I I the first person to do it. Um, but I I think that I I I think that what what it think that I I I think that what what it think that I I I think that what what it comes down to is you have to be open to comes down to is you have to be open to comes down to is you have to be open to new tactics for doing things in the same new tactics for doing things in the same new tactics for doing things in the same way that you have to be open to new way that you have to be open to new way that you have to be open to new technology without, you know, letting it technology without, you know, letting it technology without, you know, letting it rule you. I mean, you know, I see, you rule you. I mean, you know, I see, you rule you. I mean, you know, I see, you know, guys who decided that it would be know, guys who decided that it would be know, guys who decided that it would be a great idea to build a song out of AI a great idea to build a song out of AI a great idea to build a song out of AI only and then they wonder why their only and then they wonder why their only and then they wonder why their distributors are doing automatic distributors are doing automatic distributors are doing automatic takedowns of it. It's like, well, yeah, takedowns of it. It's like, well, yeah, takedowns of it. It's like, well, yeah, because you're gaming the system. like because you're gaming the system. like because you're gaming the system. like there's people don't want to hear there's people don't want to hear there's people don't want to hear something that was created entirely with something that was created entirely with something that was created entirely with AI. They they want to hear something AI. They they want to hear something AI. They they want to hear something that's you like that's that's human that's you like that's that's human that's you like that's that's human nature. And so and so I I think that the nature. And so and so I I think that the nature. And so and so I I think that the way that I see it um there is a very way that I see it um there is a very way that I see it um there is a very very old school marketing approach to very old school marketing approach to very old school marketing approach to this. And this is actually something this. And this is actually something this. And this is actually something that, you know, I had a conversation that, you know, I had a conversation that, you know, I had a conversation about with a with an old employee of about with a with an old employee of about with a with an old employee of mine during the COVID era and it ended mine during the COVID era and it ended mine during the COVID era and it ended up being something that I I've gone back up being something that I I've gone back up being something that I I've gone back to so many times, which is, you know, in

to so many times, which is, you know, in to so many times, which is, you know, in the golden age of Hollywood, they called the golden age of Hollywood, they called the golden age of Hollywood, they called it the rule of seven, right? Where the it the rule of seven, right? Where the it the rule of seven, right? Where the rule of seven was that you needed to see rule of seven was that you needed to see rule of seven was that you needed to see something about a film from seven something about a film from seven something about a film from seven different angles before you would likely different angles before you would likely different angles before you would likely make a purchase. And when you think make a purchase. And when you think make a purchase. And when you think about that from the perspective of what about that from the perspective of what about that from the perspective of what that means for modern marketing, what that means for modern marketing, what that means for modern marketing, what that means for a modern artist, I think that means for a modern artist, I think that means for a modern artist, I think that a lot of a lot of artists and that a lot of a lot of artists and that a lot of a lot of artists and businesses are stuck on using businesses are stuck on using businesses are stuck on using really one or two channels that they really one or two channels that they really one or two channels that they understand. And in reality, it's very understand. And in reality, it's very understand. And in reality, it's very important to always be on a few channels important to always be on a few channels important to always be on a few channels that you don't entirely understand, but that you don't entirely understand, but that you don't entirely understand, but you're kind of poking around and maybe you're kind of poking around and maybe you're kind of poking around and maybe owning the fact that you don't owning the fact that you don't owning the fact that you don't understand them. And that's that's an understand them. And that's that's an understand them. And that's that's an important thing to do. You know, if important thing to do. You know, if important thing to do. You know, if you're if you're getting lost in the you're if you're getting lost in the you're if you're getting lost in the news feed on LinkedIn, you're already news feed on LinkedIn, you're already news feed on LinkedIn, you're already you know, you're that's one channel. You you know, you're that's one channel. You you know, you're that's one channel. You know, you already have LinkedIn DMs you know, you already have LinkedIn DMs you know, you already have LinkedIn DMs you can do. You have direct emailing you can can do. You have direct emailing you can can do. You have direct emailing you can do. You have actual flying in your do. You have actual flying in your do. You have actual flying in your community if you have a business that community if you have a business that community if you have a business that allows for that. You have bulletin allows for that. You have bulletin allows for that. You have bulletin boards that you can post yourself on boards that you can post yourself on boards that you can post yourself on that are physical and digital. That's that are physical and digital. That's that are physical and digital. That's two channels right there. Um there, you two channels right there. Um there, you two channels right there. Um there, you know, there's obviously Reddit, which know, there's obviously Reddit, which know, there's obviously Reddit, which obviously you have to be very careful obviously you have to be very careful obviously you have to be very careful with in terms of how you put yourself on with in terms of how you put yourself on with in terms of how you put yourself on there because they're not resistant, but there because they're not resistant, but there because they're not resistant, but you know, you can run ads on Reddit now you know, you can run ads on Reddit now you know, you can run ads on Reddit now if you're willing to put up the scratch if you're willing to put up the scratch if you're willing to put up the scratch for it. And I've seen those ads be very for it. And I've seen those ads be very for it. And I've seen those ads be very effective. You have Instagram, you have effective. You have Instagram, you have effective. You have Instagram, you have Tik Tok, you still have Facebook, even

Tik Tok, you still have Facebook, even Tik Tok, you still have Facebook, even though it's obviously not what it was though it's obviously not what it was though it's obviously not what it was for this. um you know, you for this. um you know, you for this. um you know, you quote unquote have X um you know, you quote unquote have X um you know, you quote unquote have X um you know, you have you have a few different Yeah. have you have a few different Yeah. have you have a few different Yeah. Right. You you have a few different Right. You you have a few different Right. You you have a few different channels that you can be looking at, but channels that you can be looking at, but channels that you can be looking at, but it's not just social channels. What you it's not just social channels. What you it's not just social channels. What you really want to be doing is you want to really want to be doing is you want to really want to be doing is you want to be trying to find ways to reach people be trying to find ways to reach people be trying to find ways to reach people in the combination of the digital world in the combination of the digital world in the combination of the digital world and the physical world. And in order to and the physical world. And in order to and the physical world. And in order to do that, going after more traditional do that, going after more traditional do that, going after more traditional almost, you know, you know, for for lack almost, you know, you know, for for lack almost, you know, you know, for for lack of an egregious ph a less egregious of an egregious ph a less egregious of an egregious ph a less egregious phrase, you know, a more punk ethos to phrase, you know, a more punk ethos to phrase, you know, a more punk ethos to it of, you know, this comes from the it of, you know, this comes from the it of, you know, this comes from the house show era of, okay, I went to see house show era of, okay, I went to see house show era of, okay, I went to see this band, I got three flyers for the this band, I got three flyers for the this band, I got three flyers for the next show, and I'm going to give two of next show, and I'm going to give two of next show, and I'm going to give two of them to my friends. I'm using the first them to my friends. I'm using the first them to my friends. I'm using the first the third one so I remember it. Like, the third one so I remember it. Like, the third one so I remember it. Like, that's you need to be thinking about that's you need to be thinking about that's you need to be thinking about doing these these types of things. And doing these these types of things. And doing these these types of things. And they call it omni channel marketing in they call it omni channel marketing in they call it omni channel marketing in the jargon way. But you know this is the jargon way. But you know this is the jargon way. But you know this is something that for a lot of the music something that for a lot of the music something that for a lot of the music industry has always come quite naturally industry has always come quite naturally industry has always come quite naturally and we've never just really used it the and we've never just really used it the and we've never just really used it the seed game for I I I could understand in seed game for I I I could understand in seed game for I I I could understand in the music industry at an artist level the music industry at an artist level the music industry at an artist level perhaps um a certain level of naivity perhaps um a certain level of naivity perhaps um a certain level of naivity which is understandable like why why which is understandable like why why which is understandable like why why would you think to use these different would you think to use these different would you think to use these different channels? But another side of your channels? But another side of your channels? But another side of your business, Cody, is is serving tech business, Cody, is is serving tech business, Cody, is is serving tech companies, right? And and you provide companies, right? And and you provide companies, right? And and you provide services to those people. And this isn't services to those people. And this isn't services to those people. And this isn't really about pitching yourself, although really about pitching yourself, although really about pitching yourself, although obviously in the show notes there'll be

obviously in the show notes there'll be obviously in the show notes there'll be lots of information about Kodi, etc. But lots of information about Kodi, etc. But lots of information about Kodi, etc. But in in terms of in in terms of in in terms of in terms of the sort of transferability in terms of the sort of transferability in terms of the sort of transferability of perhaps insights that you get at a of perhaps insights that you get at a of perhaps insights that you get at a artist level or maybe the advice that artist level or maybe the advice that artist level or maybe the advice that you provide to artists. Um how much of you provide to artists. Um how much of you provide to artists. Um how much of that is applicable to tech companies and that is applicable to tech companies and that is applicable to tech companies and and if it is how do you how do you and if it is how do you how do you and if it is how do you how do you customize that so it really resonates customize that so it really resonates customize that so it really resonates with a founder who needs your help? with a founder who needs your help? with a founder who needs your help? >> I would say more of it is transferable >> I would say more of it is transferable >> I would say more of it is transferable than you think. And the way that I the than you think. And the way that I the than you think. And the way that I the way that I see it, and this comes from way that I see it, and this comes from way that I see it, and this comes from having worked with a lot of very hungry having worked with a lot of very hungry having worked with a lot of very hungry CEOs and founders with with big ideas, CEOs and founders with with big ideas, CEOs and founders with with big ideas, you know, creative energy is what drives you know, creative energy is what drives you know, creative energy is what drives me to do the work that I do. You know, me to do the work that I do. You know, me to do the work that I do. You know, it's the thing that it's that little bit it's the thing that it's that little bit it's the thing that it's that little bit of instability that can be applied in a of instability that can be applied in a of instability that can be applied in a way that adds to the entire rest of the way that adds to the entire rest of the way that adds to the entire rest of the world that I think is incredibly world that I think is incredibly world that I think is incredibly fascinating. But I I I saw a uh you know fascinating. But I I I saw a uh you know fascinating. But I I I saw a uh you know I saw a marketer that I really respect I I saw a marketer that I really respect I I saw a marketer that I really respect I who I follow LinkedIn make a a really who I follow LinkedIn make a a really who I follow LinkedIn make a a really interesting point about this. You know interesting point about this. You know interesting point about this. You know he said you know 50% of a CMO's job is he said you know 50% of a CMO's job is he said you know 50% of a CMO's job is managing the CEO. It's like you know managing the CEO. It's like you know managing the CEO. It's like you know that's not entirely wrong because the that's not entirely wrong because the that's not entirely wrong because the thing is you know the the CEO comes from thing is you know the the CEO comes from thing is you know the the CEO comes from the perspective of how do we get the perspective of how do we get the perspective of how do we get revenue? How do we not mess up? And the revenue? How do we not mess up? And the revenue? How do we not mess up? And the CEO's perspective is, okay, these people CEO's perspective is, okay, these people CEO's perspective is, okay, these people aren't doing enough and this thing isn't aren't doing enough and this thing isn't aren't doing enough and this thing isn't performing the way we want it to yet. Do performing the way we want it to yet. Do performing the way we want it to yet. Do we get rid of it? Um, well, you know, we get rid of it? Um, well, you know, we get rid of it? Um, well, you know, we're building a runway for this thing.

we're building a runway for this thing. we're building a runway for this thing. You know, we let's say that we have a You know, we let's say that we have a You know, we let's say that we have a narrative that we're establishing that's narrative that we're establishing that's narrative that we're establishing that's a marketing narrative over, you know, a a marketing narrative over, you know, a a marketing narrative over, you know, a few months. that that's not something few months. that that's not something few months. that that's not something that you're going to have results on that you're going to have results on that you're going to have results on that are, you know, the immediate needle that are, you know, the immediate needle that are, you know, the immediate needle shifter usually in a week of a campaign. shifter usually in a week of a campaign. shifter usually in a week of a campaign. You know, you have to be able to you You know, you have to be able to you You know, you have to be able to you have to be able to allow some patience have to be able to allow some patience have to be able to allow some patience for things to play out. And I will say for things to play out. And I will say for things to play out. And I will say also that's another way in which there's also that's another way in which there's also that's another way in which there's a lot of similarities. And you know, one a lot of similarities. And you know, one a lot of similarities. And you know, one of the biggest jobs a manager has when of the biggest jobs a manager has when of the biggest jobs a manager has when they work with an artist is to help them they work with an artist is to help them they work with an artist is to help them be patient because they're going, "Well, be patient because they're going, "Well, be patient because they're going, "Well, I have this amazing thing that I that I I have this amazing thing that I that I I have this amazing thing that I that I feel pregnant with. I want to put out feel pregnant with. I want to put out feel pregnant with. I want to put out into the world and I can't put it out into the world and I can't put it out into the world and I can't put it out for whatever reason because we're for whatever reason because we're for whatever reason because we're executing something along this timeline. executing something along this timeline. executing something along this timeline. How do we wait?" And you're going, "Man, How do we wait?" And you're going, "Man, How do we wait?" And you're going, "Man, I have this thing that's getting set up I have this thing that's getting set up I have this thing that's getting set up for you. I have, you know, these two for you. I have, you know, these two for you. I have, you know, these two interviews that are about to happen interviews that are about to happen interviews that are about to happen through our publicist. I have, you know, through our publicist. I have, you know, through our publicist. I have, you know, the these radio stations that are all the these radio stations that are all the these radio stations that are all playing your single. They're going to do playing your single. They're going to do playing your single. They're going to do a lot more with your full record. Please a lot more with your full record. Please a lot more with your full record. Please just give it six weeks. You know, like just give it six weeks. You know, like just give it six weeks. You know, like that's that's a conversation you're that's that's a conversation you're that's that's a conversation you're always having if you're a manager with always having if you're a manager with always having if you're a manager with an artist. And you know, a lot of what I an artist. And you know, a lot of what I an artist. And you know, a lot of what I do is that as the consultant to do is that as the consultant to do is that as the consultant to musicians has shades of that. So when musicians has shades of that. So when musicians has shades of that. So when you're when you're dealing as you know you're when you're dealing as you know you're when you're dealing as you know the the top level marketer with a CEO, the the top level marketer with a CEO, the the top level marketer with a CEO, it's in many cases the same thing. It's it's in many cases the same thing. It's it's in many cases the same thing. It's you have to be able to

you have to be able to you have to be able to help them with the psychology of it help them with the psychology of it help them with the psychology of it enough, especially if they've never had enough, especially if they've never had enough, especially if they've never had another startup before, which in many another startup before, which in many another startup before, which in many cases, especially in tech, they haven't. cases, especially in tech, they haven't. cases, especially in tech, they haven't. Um, you know, you have to be able to sit Um, you know, you have to be able to sit Um, you know, you have to be able to sit there and say, "Hey, your idea is there and say, "Hey, your idea is there and say, "Hey, your idea is awesome. I believe in this idea. I see awesome. I believe in this idea. I see awesome. I believe in this idea. I see where we can help a lot of people with where we can help a lot of people with where we can help a lot of people with it. Also, this is a timeline that is it. Also, this is a timeline that is it. Also, this is a timeline that is going to require 4 months to 12 months going to require 4 months to 12 months going to require 4 months to 12 months to whatever to execute. And you know, we to whatever to execute. And you know, we to whatever to execute. And you know, we can be reassessing this in two week can be reassessing this in two week can be reassessing this in two week sprints, but you know, we don't want to sprints, but you know, we don't want to sprints, but you know, we don't want to be sitting here and throwing the baby be sitting here and throwing the baby be sitting here and throwing the baby out with a bath water in a month. And I out with a bath water in a month. And I out with a bath water in a month. And I think that's a large part of it. And think that's a large part of it. And think that's a large part of it. And obviously, there's there's different obviously, there's there's different obviously, there's there's different stuff that goes into dealing with with stuff that goes into dealing with with stuff that goes into dealing with with with larger companies. I mean they have with larger companies. I mean they have with larger companies. I mean they have you know their own investors that you you know their own investors that you you know their own investors that you know are going to be asking questions. know are going to be asking questions. know are going to be asking questions. You have certain KPIs that you have to You have certain KPIs that you have to You have certain KPIs that you have to be able to demonstrate or at least in be able to demonstrate or at least in be able to demonstrate or at least in the process of being reached towards. Um the process of being reached towards. Um the process of being reached towards. Um those are those are important. I think those are those are important. I think those are those are important. I think those goals are softer with artists by those goals are softer with artists by those goals are softer with artists by their nature. But when you're talking their nature. But when you're talking their nature. But when you're talking about it with a with a large company, at about it with a with a large company, at about it with a with a large company, at the end of the day, you know, companies the end of the day, you know, companies the end of the day, you know, companies want to know that they not only are want to know that they not only are want to know that they not only are doing something that allows them to go doing something that allows them to go doing something that allows them to go to the table with their competitors, but to the table with their competitors, but to the table with their competitors, but also they want to have a situation where also they want to have a situation where also they want to have a situation where ideally they don't even have a ideally they don't even have a ideally they don't even have a competitor because what they're doing is competitor because what they're doing is competitor because what they're doing is that innovative.

that innovative. that innovative. >> And if you're willing to put your belief >> And if you're willing to put your belief >> And if you're willing to put your belief and you're willing to put your firepower and you're willing to put your firepower and you're willing to put your firepower and on, you know, into the service of and on, you know, into the service of and on, you know, into the service of that level of creative inspiration, then that level of creative inspiration, then that level of creative inspiration, then you can work with that sort of person. you can work with that sort of person. you can work with that sort of person. And I think that there's a certain And I think that there's a certain And I think that there's a certain amount of people management that you amount of people management that you amount of people management that you have to be able to do. And the real have to be able to do. And the real have to be able to do. And the real difference is that when you do it with a difference is that when you do it with a difference is that when you do it with a company, you know, a lot of the ones company, you know, a lot of the ones company, you know, a lot of the ones that are better funded, there's often that are better funded, there's often that are better funded, there's often already a staff in place. And so you already a staff in place. And so you already a staff in place. And so you just have to be mindful of the fact that just have to be mindful of the fact that just have to be mindful of the fact that you know you are going to be you know you know you are going to be you know you know you are going to be you know that person who is an outside expert that person who is an outside expert that person who is an outside expert that can be seen as the outsider. And that can be seen as the outsider. And that can be seen as the outsider. And what you want to do is you want to what you want to do is you want to what you want to do is you want to actually understand the people that actually understand the people that actually understand the people that you're dealing with in the room so that you're dealing with in the room so that you're dealing with in the room so that you can help solve bigger problems. you can help solve bigger problems. you can help solve bigger problems. Today's episode is brought to you by Today's episode is brought to you by Today's episode is brought to you by hunter.io the B2B lead generation hunter.io the B2B lead generation hunter.io the B2B lead generation platform made for every professional. platform made for every professional. platform made for every professional. Whether it's prospecting, fundraising, Whether it's prospecting, fundraising, Whether it's prospecting, fundraising, recruiting, link building, or just recruiting, link building, or just recruiting, link building, or just trying to connect with the right people, trying to connect with the right people, trying to connect with the right people, Hunter makes it easy. When you you talk Hunter makes it easy. When you you talk Hunter makes it easy. When you you talk to founders and CEOs, and and maybe to founders and CEOs, and and maybe to founders and CEOs, and and maybe that's focused a bit more on a founder.

that's focused a bit more on a founder. that's focused a bit more on a founder. Let's say let's say it's a it's a Let's say let's say it's a it's a Let's say let's say it's a it's a founder who, you know, potentially has founder who, you know, potentially has founder who, you know, potentially has hit that 1 million uh annual revenue hit that 1 million uh annual revenue hit that 1 million uh annual revenue mark, but they're not comfortable with mark, but they're not comfortable with mark, but they're not comfortable with this idea of selling. Maybe they've this idea of selling. Maybe they've this idea of selling. Maybe they've maxed out their referral network. Um, maxed out their referral network. Um, maxed out their referral network. Um, and and I'm sure again we we have and and I'm sure again we we have and and I'm sure again we we have listeners who perhaps fall into that listeners who perhaps fall into that listeners who perhaps fall into that bucket and that's okay. That is a bucket and that's okay. That is a bucket and that's okay. That is a pattern that that repeats itself and pattern that that repeats itself and pattern that that repeats itself and probably will repeat itself until the probably will repeat itself until the probably will repeat itself until the end of time when it comes to sort of end of time when it comes to sort of end of time when it comes to sort of growing a business. When you speak to growing a business. When you speak to growing a business. When you speak to someone like that, what is the the someone like that, what is the the someone like that, what is the the tactical advice that you give to them in tactical advice that you give to them in tactical advice that you give to them in terms of when you're going through these terms of when you're going through these terms of when you're going through these engagements with them? You know, you engagements with them? You know, you engagements with them? You know, you mentioned earlier, Cody, um, omni mentioned earlier, Cody, um, omni mentioned earlier, Cody, um, omni channel marketing, multi- channelannel channel marketing, multi- channelannel channel marketing, multi- channelannel marketing, whatever you want to call it, marketing, whatever you want to call it, marketing, whatever you want to call it, just marketing on multiple fronts, just marketing on multiple fronts, just marketing on multiple fronts, how do you how do you frame this idea how do you how do you frame this idea how do you how do you frame this idea of, okay, well, if you're going to of, okay, well, if you're going to of, okay, well, if you're going to transition away from being founder with transition away from being founder with transition away from being founder with sales, if we're going to introduce uh sales, if we're going to introduce uh sales, if we're going to introduce uh more nuance and and more layers into more nuance and and more layers into more nuance and and more layers into this go to market idea for you, like how this go to market idea for you, like how this go to market idea for you, like how do you what does tactically that look do you what does tactically that look do you what does tactically that look like uh for a founder that talks to you?

like uh for a founder that talks to you? like uh for a founder that talks to you? So, I think one of the first things that So, I think one of the first things that So, I think one of the first things that you have to do if you're if you're a you have to do if you're if you're a you have to do if you're if you're a founder in that situation, if you're founder in that situation, if you're founder in that situation, if you're trying to transfer away from founder le trying to transfer away from founder le trying to transfer away from founder le sales, first of all, I think you have to sales, first of all, I think you have to sales, first of all, I think you have to have a CRM. You just have to. I I think have a CRM. You just have to. I I think have a CRM. You just have to. I I think that we're in a a part of the uh the that we're in a a part of the uh the that we're in a a part of the uh the technological era where you are holding technological era where you are holding technological era where you are holding yourself underwater. If you're relying yourself underwater. If you're relying yourself underwater. If you're relying on Excel spreadsheets for all your on Excel spreadsheets for all your on Excel spreadsheets for all your outreach and you've got multiple people outreach and you've got multiple people outreach and you've got multiple people on staff who are doing sales, it's or on staff who are doing sales, it's or on staff who are doing sales, it's or you intend to have multiple people on you intend to have multiple people on you intend to have multiple people on staff doing sales. it's just not going staff doing sales. it's just not going staff doing sales. it's just not going to be useful in the long term. There's to be useful in the long term. There's to be useful in the long term. There's more room to mess stuff up. There's, you more room to mess stuff up. There's, you more room to mess stuff up. There's, you know, a lot more difficulty in seeing know, a lot more difficulty in seeing know, a lot more difficulty in seeing what's going on where, when this person what's going on where, when this person what's going on where, when this person was last contact, etc., you know, you was last contact, etc., you know, you was last contact, etc., you know, you just need to do it. And I think the just need to do it. And I think the just need to do it. And I think the other thing with having a CRM, and I other thing with having a CRM, and I other thing with having a CRM, and I think it takes a lot of trial and error think it takes a lot of trial and error think it takes a lot of trial and error to find the one that's right for you, to find the one that's right for you, to find the one that's right for you, there's so many of them, and you know, there's so many of them, and you know, there's so many of them, and you know, some of them are some of them are some of them are some of them are complete overkill for some of them are complete overkill for some of them are complete overkill for people too. And you know, then there are people too. And you know, then there are people too. And you know, then there are the ones that are a little bit too light the ones that are a little bit too light the ones that are a little bit too light for certain applications. There are the for certain applications. There are the for certain applications. There are the ones that are completely useless if ones that are completely useless if ones that are completely useless if you're not a Gmail user. You know, you're not a Gmail user. You know, you're not a Gmail user. You know, there's there's so many different ones.

there's there's so many different ones. there's there's so many different ones. And what it comes down to is that those And what it comes down to is that those And what it comes down to is that those CRM, I think that, you know, part of how CRM, I think that, you know, part of how CRM, I think that, you know, part of how you identify which one's going to work you identify which one's going to work you identify which one's going to work for you is a matter of, you know, for you is a matter of, you know, for you is a matter of, you know, figuring out what types of companies figuring out what types of companies figuring out what types of companies historically use this sort of CRM. I historically use this sort of CRM. I historically use this sort of CRM. I think that, you know, they the sorts of think that, you know, they the sorts of think that, you know, they the sorts of of, you know, companies that sell HVAC, of, you know, companies that sell HVAC, of, you know, companies that sell HVAC, I find use very different types of CRM I find use very different types of CRM I find use very different types of CRM from these companies, for example. Um from these companies, for example. Um from these companies, for example. Um and and that's and and that's the nature and and that's and and that's the nature and and that's and and that's the nature of the thing, you know, like and I'll of the thing, you know, like and I'll of the thing, you know, like and I'll tell you as as an example of that. Um tell you as as an example of that. Um tell you as as an example of that. Um you know, I go to South by Southwest you know, I go to South by Southwest you know, I go to South by Southwest every year in Austin, Texas, and that's, every year in Austin, Texas, and that's, every year in Austin, Texas, and that's, you know, not only one of the biggest you know, not only one of the biggest you know, not only one of the biggest tech conferences that you can go to in tech conferences that you can go to in tech conferences that you can go to in the United States is also easily the the United States is also easily the the United States is also easily the biggest music conference. And when I'm biggest music conference. And when I'm biggest music conference. And when I'm there on the ground, what am I doing? I there on the ground, what am I doing? I there on the ground, what am I doing? I you know I'm I'm meeting with people and you know I'm I'm meeting with people and you know I'm I'm meeting with people and I'm either taking notes or I'm adding I'm either taking notes or I'm adding I'm either taking notes or I'm adding those notes to the CRM that I have those notes to the CRM that I have those notes to the CRM that I have through my phone and that is sometimes through my phone and that is sometimes through my phone and that is sometimes difficult to do at an environment like difficult to do at an environment like difficult to do at an environment like that because you have you know weird that because you have you know weird that because you have you know weird cell reception but you you're always cell reception but you you're always cell reception but you you're always refining your approach to see what works refining your approach to see what works refining your approach to see what works for you. So that's one of the first for you. So that's one of the first for you. So that's one of the first things that I would say is you have to things that I would say is you have to things that I would say is you have to have a CRM that is at least adapted to have a CRM that is at least adapted to have a CRM that is at least adapted to the environment that you're working in the environment that you're working in the environment that you're working in >> and the type of business that you have.

>> and the type of business that you have. >> and the type of business that you have. And I I think the second thing that I And I I think the second thing that I And I I think the second thing that I would say is the people that are doing would say is the people that are doing would say is the people that are doing sales on your behalf, you know, you not sales on your behalf, you know, you not sales on your behalf, you know, you not as founder, you know, the people doing as founder, you know, the people doing as founder, you know, the people doing sales on your behalf need to understand sales on your behalf need to understand sales on your behalf need to understand that there are layers of communication that there are layers of communication that there are layers of communication that you reach people. And this is that you reach people. And this is that you reach people. And this is something that I learned from my days as something that I learned from my days as something that I learned from my days as a radio promoter, you know, where I was a radio promoter, you know, where I was a radio promoter, you know, where I was calling college radio stations and calling college radio stations and calling college radio stations and trying to encourage you to play records. trying to encourage you to play records. trying to encourage you to play records. You know, one of the one of the things You know, one of the one of the things You know, one of the one of the things that you learn is, you know, you having that you learn is, you know, you having that you learn is, you know, you having a face-to-face conversation with a face-to-face conversation with a face-to-face conversation with somebody is that's the the least barrier somebody is that's the the least barrier somebody is that's the the least barrier of communication possible. When of communication possible. When of communication possible. When when you are having a phone call with when you are having a phone call with when you are having a phone call with somebody, that's maybe 60 to 70% as good somebody, that's maybe 60 to 70% as good somebody, that's maybe 60 to 70% as good at communication. an email is maybe 20% at communication. an email is maybe 20% at communication. an email is maybe 20% as good as communication as that. And as good as communication as that. And as good as communication as that. And that and so that's one of the things that and so that's one of the things that and so that's one of the things that you have to be mindful of is that that you have to be mindful of is that that you have to be mindful of is that you know if you're having a a 26 year you know if you're having a a 26 year you know if you're having a a 26 year old specialist um you know who's very old specialist um you know who's very old specialist um you know who's very hungry on your sales team and is not hungry on your sales team and is not hungry on your sales team and is not necessarily somebody who comes from a necessarily somebody who comes from a necessarily somebody who comes from a sales background. The first thing you sales background. The first thing you sales background. The first thing you have to prepare them for is no. And no have to prepare them for is no. And no have to prepare them for is no. And no is something that also encompasses no is something that also encompasses no is something that also encompasses no responses. And that's that's just how it responses. And that's that's just how it responses. And that's that's just how it is. And you know, you have to is. And you know, you have to is. And you know, you have to acknowledge the fact that every step acknowledge the fact that every step acknowledge the fact that every step further back that you're taking away further back that you're taking away further back that you're taking away from communication is going to create

from communication is going to create from communication is going to create more resistance. You know, face to face, more resistance. You know, face to face, more resistance. You know, face to face, that's relationship building. Calls, that's relationship building. Calls, that's relationship building. Calls, that's relationship building with some that's relationship building with some that's relationship building with some extra steps. video calls. It straddles extra steps. video calls. It straddles extra steps. video calls. It straddles the difference. As long as somebody's the difference. As long as somebody's the difference. As long as somebody's not so exhausted of video calls that not so exhausted of video calls that not so exhausted of video calls that day, I think people have a limit. Um, day, I think people have a limit. Um, day, I think people have a limit. Um, and then emails, you're always working and then emails, you're always working and then emails, you're always working against the fact that that's not usually against the fact that that's not usually against the fact that that's not usually how humans wake up in the morning how humans wake up in the morning how humans wake up in the morning wanting to be correspondent. >> I like emails. Um, I don't I don't look >> I like emails. Um, I don't I don't look to them when I when I want to say hi to to them when I when I want to say hi to to them when I when I want to say hi to my friends, you know, like I I I want to my friends, you know, like I I I want to my friends, you know, like I I I want to I want to do phone calls. I I I want to I want to do phone calls. I I I want to I want to do phone calls. I I I want to talk to people. And I think that's a talk to people. And I think that's a talk to people. And I think that's a very human impulse. So, what you're very human impulse. So, what you're very human impulse. So, what you're really doing is you're trying to account really doing is you're trying to account really doing is you're trying to account for the human impulse as much as you can for the human impulse as much as you can for the human impulse as much as you can and then you're just checking boxes off. and then you're just checking boxes off. and then you're just checking boxes off. You know, your follow-up cadence, you You know, your follow-up cadence, you You know, your follow-up cadence, you know, I think a a good follow-up cadence know, I think a a good follow-up cadence know, I think a a good follow-up cadence is, you know, for for many types of is, you know, for for many types of is, you know, for for many types of businesses, businesses, businesses, you know, I I called and then I tried to you know, I I called and then I tried to you know, I I called and then I tried to email um and then I emailed again and email um and then I emailed again and email um and then I emailed again and then I tried to call again. You know, I then I tried to call again. You know, I then I tried to call again. You know, I think there's a, you know, for the think there's a, you know, for the think there's a, you know, for the people that you can still reach on the people that you can still reach on the people that you can still reach on the phone, which obviously that's never been phone, which obviously that's never been phone, which obviously that's never been harder in my opinion, that's the that's harder in my opinion, that's the that's harder in my opinion, that's the that's the way you want to be looking at the way you want to be looking at the way you want to be looking at things, but I find that if you can just things, but I find that if you can just things, but I find that if you can just get somebody to agree to a video call get somebody to agree to a video call get somebody to agree to a video call with you or a meeting in person, um, with you or a meeting in person, um, with you or a meeting in person, um, especially if you're a regional company, especially if you're a regional company, especially if you're a regional company, that that inerson meeting is worth its that that inerson meeting is worth its that that inerson meeting is worth its weight in cold. you know, that carries

weight in cold. you know, that carries weight in cold. you know, that carries so much weight over email. And in the so much weight over email. And in the so much weight over email. And in the music business, you know, so much cold music business, you know, so much cold music business, you know, so much cold outreach over email is, you know, not outreach over email is, you know, not outreach over email is, you know, not even not even spam at this point, but even not even spam at this point, but even not even spam at this point, but actively scams. Um, which is really bad. actively scams. Um, which is really bad. actively scams. Um, which is really bad. A lot of people take advantage of the A lot of people take advantage of the A lot of people take advantage of the fact that musicians are not fact that musicians are not fact that musicians are not particularly, you know, literate about particularly, you know, literate about particularly, you know, literate about some of what is good for them and not some of what is good for them and not some of what is good for them and not yet. And so they try to catch the girly yet. And so they try to catch the girly yet. And so they try to catch the girly in the process. And we see that over and in the process. And we see that over and in the process. And we see that over and over again. So I think that you have to over again. So I think that you have to over again. So I think that you have to be, you know, always on your guard if be, you know, always on your guard if be, you know, always on your guard if you're a founder trying to get away from you're a founder trying to get away from you're a founder trying to get away from founder sales that you not only have a founder sales that you not only have a founder sales that you not only have a duty to your people to normalize and to duty to your people to normalize and to duty to your people to normalize and to expect no response. Um, but then also to expect no response. Um, but then also to expect no response. Um, but then also to understand that there are different understand that there are different understand that there are different types of communication you should always types of communication you should always types of communication you should always be cycling through and certain types of be cycling through and certain types of be cycling through and certain types of people just might not be reachable with people just might not be reachable with people just might not be reachable with the types of communication you have to the types of communication you have to the types of communication you have to bear at that moment. doesn't need to bear at that moment. doesn't need to bear at that moment. doesn't need to cross off forever if it's a great cross off forever if it's a great cross off forever if it's a great prospect, prospect, prospect, >> right? >> right? >> right? >> Yeah. I I think that is such an >> Yeah. I I think that is such an >> Yeah. I I think that is such an important point there, Cody. Is important point there, Cody. Is important point there, Cody. Is >> there is something to be said about, you >> there is something to be said about, you >> there is something to be said about, you know, we Hunter, we we released uh an AI know, we Hunter, we we released uh an AI know, we Hunter, we we released uh an AI writing assistance and it kind of helps writing assistance and it kind of helps writing assistance and it kind of helps you get 95% of the way of writing a cold you get 95% of the way of writing a cold you get 95% of the way of writing a cold email, which is great, but the way that email, which is great, but the way that email, which is great, but the way that you make it get to that 95% is that you you make it get to that 95% is that you you make it get to that 95% is that you need to actually have done research on need to actually have done research on need to actually have done research on the recipients. There needs to be some the recipients. There needs to be some the recipients. There needs to be some sort of clear understanding of the value sort of clear understanding of the value sort of clear understanding of the value that you can bring. But more that you can bring. But more that you can bring. But more importantly, um I talk about this a lot.

importantly, um I talk about this a lot. importantly, um I talk about this a lot. It's just one channel. It's just one It's just one channel. It's just one It's just one channel. It's just one attempt to get the attention of that attempt to get the attention of that attempt to get the attention of that person. And you talked about, you know, person. And you talked about, you know, person. And you talked about, you know, the golden age of Hollywood. You know, the golden age of Hollywood. You know, the golden age of Hollywood. You know, the seven the seven touch points. the seven the seven touch points. the seven the seven touch points. Nowadays, we're getting into the Nowadays, we're getting into the Nowadays, we're getting into the ridiculous of 20 30 different touch ridiculous of 20 30 different touch ridiculous of 20 30 different touch points that are needed, which is why points that are needed, which is why points that are needed, which is why it's important to have multi- it's important to have multi- it's important to have multi- channelannel. But the thing that we channelannel. But the thing that we channelannel. But the thing that we should never lose sight of, at least in should never lose sight of, at least in should never lose sight of, at least in my opinion, is a little what you said my opinion, is a little what you said my opinion, is a little what you said there, Cody, which is just because there, Cody, which is just because there, Cody, which is just because someone doesn't respond doesn't mean someone doesn't respond doesn't mean someone doesn't respond doesn't mean that they haven't engaged with it. It that they haven't engaged with it. It that they haven't engaged with it. It just could not be the right time. You just could not be the right time. You just could not be the right time. You know, we I mean, hell, you know, I I know, we I mean, hell, you know, I I know, we I mean, hell, you know, I I take a very long time to reply to my my take a very long time to reply to my my take a very long time to reply to my my Gmail emails. It's not because I'm not Gmail emails. It's not because I'm not Gmail emails. It's not because I'm not interested. It's just that's, you know, interested. It's just that's, you know, interested. It's just that's, you know, it's it's not my primary channel. And I it's it's not my primary channel. And I it's it's not my primary channel. And I think that losing sight of the human think that losing sight of the human think that losing sight of the human element of anything that we do when it element of anything that we do when it element of anything that we do when it comes to trying to grow a business, aka comes to trying to grow a business, aka comes to trying to grow a business, aka the losing sight of the importance of the losing sight of the importance of the losing sight of the importance of relationships, that's something that is relationships, that's something that is relationships, that's something that is not worthwhile. And I'm not going to I'm not worthwhile. And I'm not going to I'm not worthwhile. And I'm not going to I'm not going to name names, but I do know not going to name names, but I do know not going to name names, but I do know that someone in our space has um has that someone in our space has um has that someone in our space has um has introduced uh AI generated replies. So, introduced uh AI generated replies. So, introduced uh AI generated replies. So, if I were to send you a code email, they if I were to send you a code email, they if I were to send you a code email, they now offer the ability for AI to reply on now offer the ability for AI to reply on now offer the ability for AI to reply on your behalf. And that's where I'm like, your behalf. And that's where I'm like, your behalf. And that's where I'm like, okay, it's one thing to to use AI uh okay, it's one thing to to use AI uh okay, it's one thing to to use AI uh responsibly to help you speed up your responsibly to help you speed up your responsibly to help you speed up your process to write great email, but if you process to write great email, but if you process to write great email, but if you don't have the time to respond to the don't have the time to respond to the don't have the time to respond to the emails that you get back off that emails that you get back off that emails that you get back off that effort, you know, you you're really effort, you know, you you're really effort, you know, you you're really losing something. And I think that what losing something. And I think that what losing something. And I think that what you said there hits the nail on the you said there hits the nail on the you said there hits the nail on the head, Cody, where it's like, yeah,

head, Cody, where it's like, yeah, head, Cody, where it's like, yeah, people may not be ready. People may not people may not be ready. People may not people may not be ready. People may not be interested right now, but it's still be interested right now, but it's still be interested right now, but it's still a human that you're trying to engage a human that you're trying to engage a human that you're trying to engage with. with. with. >> It still is. And you know, there there >> It still is. And you know, there there >> It still is. And you know, there there are two things I think about this. I are two things I think about this. I are two things I think about this. I mean first of all you know I always come mean first of all you know I always come mean first of all you know I always come from the perspective of you know what I from the perspective of you know what I from the perspective of you know what I learned in you know my journalism school learned in you know my journalism school learned in you know my journalism school days which and that's how I started into days which and that's how I started into days which and that's how I started into everything which is I had a public everything which is I had a public everything which is I had a public affairs reporting professor who drilled affairs reporting professor who drilled affairs reporting professor who drilled into us that if you don't get a response into us that if you don't get a response into us that if you don't get a response it doesn't necessarily mean anything it doesn't necessarily mean anything it doesn't necessarily mean anything that might be that that person's too that might be that that person's too that might be that that person's too busy that day. They might have had a busy that day. They might have had a busy that day. They might have had a death in their family. They might have a death in their family. They might have a death in their family. They might have a car that broke down. They might just be car that broke down. They might just be car that broke down. They might just be really over their head with a bunch of really over their head with a bunch of really over their head with a bunch of stuff or maybe they didn't like what you stuff or maybe they didn't like what you stuff or maybe they didn't like what you sent them and they're like, "Oh, I don't sent them and they're like, "Oh, I don't sent them and they're like, "Oh, I don't want to deal with this person anymore." want to deal with this person anymore." want to deal with this person anymore." And you don't know which way it's going And you don't know which way it's going And you don't know which way it's going to be, right? So, there's nothing wrong to be, right? So, there's nothing wrong to be, right? So, there's nothing wrong with being able to follow up through with being able to follow up through with being able to follow up through that and try to find the human. Um, you that and try to find the human. Um, you that and try to find the human. Um, you know, a a no a no response doesn't mean know, a a no a no response doesn't mean know, a a no a no response doesn't mean anything. And some people in the music anything. And some people in the music anything. And some people in the music industry think it does and that's how industry think it does and that's how industry think it does and that's how they make stuff go away which is why you they make stuff go away which is why you they make stuff go away which is why you have to do all the follow-ups and that's have to do all the follow-ups and that's have to do all the follow-ups and that's just how it is. But the other thing that just how it is. But the other thing that just how it is. But the other thing that I would say to this is that you know I would say to this is that you know I would say to this is that you know we're in this situation where I I think we're in this situation where I I think we're in this situation where I I think the promise of new technology of you the promise of new technology of you the promise of new technology of you know what something like large language know what something like large language know what something like large language modeling which on its face value is a modeling which on its face value is a modeling which on its face value is a really fascinating bit of new tech. Um,

really fascinating bit of new tech. Um, really fascinating bit of new tech. Um, what something like that can bring to what something like that can bring to what something like that can bring to the table is a matter of giving you the the table is a matter of giving you the the table is a matter of giving you the ability to sort of have a a not that ability to sort of have a a not that ability to sort of have a a not that aware friend that you might be able to aware friend that you might be able to aware friend that you might be able to ask a couple of questions in a situation ask a couple of questions in a situation ask a couple of questions in a situation and you have the moment where you go, and you have the moment where you go, and you have the moment where you go, oh, you're crowdsourcing all this oh, you're crowdsourcing all this oh, you're crowdsourcing all this information and it's like 70% right. information and it's like 70% right. information and it's like 70% right. Okay, cool. I refined my point. Awesome. Okay, cool. I refined my point. Awesome. Okay, cool. I refined my point. Awesome. Thanks for telling me the way that I Thanks for telling me the way that I Thanks for telling me the way that I didn't want to hear the sentiment. didn't want to hear the sentiment. didn't want to hear the sentiment. >> Um, now I can say it to somebody else >> Um, now I can say it to somebody else >> Um, now I can say it to somebody else better. better. better. >> That's how it can be responsibly used. >> That's how it can be responsibly used. >> That's how it can be responsibly used. one example um but there's a difference one example um but there's a difference one example um but there's a difference between that and I think this weird between that and I think this weird between that and I think this weird dystopian thing that we are I on the you dystopian thing that we are I on the you dystopian thing that we are I on the you know seeing in some cases which is that know seeing in some cases which is that know seeing in some cases which is that people are using it to allow it to make people are using it to allow it to make people are using it to allow it to make themselves lazier and when you have that themselves lazier and when you have that themselves lazier and when you have that then you have fully AIdriven outreach then you have fully AIdriven outreach then you have fully AIdriven outreach which is okay you're having a large which is okay you're having a large which is okay you're having a large language modeler spit out a template language modeler spit out a template language modeler spit out a template basically one of several that it has in basically one of several that it has in basically one of several that it has in store and when a template is spit out store and when a template is spit out store and when a template is spit out back at that point you have two back at that point you have two back at that point you have two computers talking to each other and the computers talking to each other and the computers talking to each other and the computers don't even know how to connect computers don't even know how to connect computers don't even know how to connect that back to the human at that point.

that back to the human at that point. that back to the human at that point. You know, it's they're, you know, You know, it's they're, you know, You know, it's they're, you know, simulating the process of having a simulating the process of having a simulating the process of having a conversation. It at that point there's conversation. It at that point there's conversation. It at that point there's no connection to be made. And you have no connection to be made. And you have no connection to be made. And you have to always understand the limitations of to always understand the limitations of to always understand the limitations of any tech you are dealing with, no matter any tech you are dealing with, no matter any tech you are dealing with, no matter how unprecedented it may seem. And if how unprecedented it may seem. And if how unprecedented it may seem. And if you don't understand the limitations of you don't understand the limitations of you don't understand the limitations of what you're dealing with, you're you're what you're dealing with, you're you're what you're dealing with, you're you're going to have a bad time. And you know, going to have a bad time. And you know, going to have a bad time. And you know, it's I I have a variant of this it's I I have a variant of this it's I I have a variant of this conversation with musicians now because, conversation with musicians now because, conversation with musicians now because, you know, we're at a point where, you you know, we're at a point where, you you know, we're at a point where, you know, Garage Band is in every MacBook know, Garage Band is in every MacBook know, Garage Band is in every MacBook that ships out of the factory. And the that ships out of the factory. And the that ships out of the factory. And the ability to, you know, get at least a a a ability to, you know, get at least a a a ability to, you know, get at least a a a studio sounding demo that you can turn studio sounding demo that you can turn studio sounding demo that you can turn into a finished song with a into a finished song with a into a finished song with a professional's help has never been professional's help has never been professional's help has never been easier to do. And yet, the competition easier to do. And yet, the competition easier to do. And yet, the competition in this business also has increased as a in this business also has increased as a in this business also has increased as a result. And you sort of have to result. And you sort of have to result. And you sort of have to constantly have that balancing act of, constantly have that balancing act of, constantly have that balancing act of, okay, what other ways can I give myself okay, what other ways can I give myself okay, what other ways can I give myself an advantage? And that's not to give an advantage? And that's not to give an advantage? And that's not to give yourself wholly to the machine. That's yourself wholly to the machine. That's yourself wholly to the machine. That's also not for you to go in a bubble and also not for you to go in a bubble and also not for you to go in a bubble and say, well, I'm just going to play, you say, well, I'm just going to play, you say, well, I'm just going to play, you know, tube amplifiers in a blues bar know, tube amplifiers in a blues bar know, tube amplifiers in a blues bar forever. There's a difference. You have forever. There's a difference. You have forever. There's a difference. You have to be able to split some sort of media.

to be able to split some sort of media. to be able to split some sort of media. And I think that it's very much the same And I think that it's very much the same And I think that it's very much the same thing when you're talking about, you thing when you're talking about, you thing when you're talking about, you know, how outreach is done and how you know, how outreach is done and how you know, how outreach is done and how you receive outreach. One thing that I do a receive outreach. One thing that I do a receive outreach. One thing that I do a lot of times is that if I see what I lot of times is that if I see what I lot of times is that if I see what I know, and this is true confessions of know, and this is true confessions of know, and this is true confessions of business owners right here, this is business owners right here, this is business owners right here, this is something real. something real. something real. >> Here's the juicy bit. >> Here's the juicy bit. >> Here's the juicy bit. >> This is free game to all you cold >> This is free game to all you cold >> This is free game to all you cold outreach mavens out there. If I see outreach mavens out there. If I see outreach mavens out there. If I see email that I can tell a is AI generated email that I can tell a is AI generated email that I can tell a is AI generated outreach and b does not have an outreach and b does not have an outreach and b does not have an unsubscribe link, I mark it as spam. And unsubscribe link, I mark it as spam. And unsubscribe link, I mark it as spam. And I don't care who you are. And I don't care who you are. And I don't care who you are. And that is what I do every single time. And that is what I do every single time. And that is what I do every single time. And let me tell you, some days I will mark let me tell you, some days I will mark let me tell you, some days I will mark 10 emails like that as spam. And that's 10 emails like that as spam. And that's 10 emails like that as spam. And that's Consort File. Um, and I still get spam Consort File. Um, and I still get spam Consort File. Um, and I still get spam addressed to me on behalf of the agency addressed to me on behalf of the agency addressed to me on behalf of the agency that I had previously founded, which I that I had previously founded, which I that I had previously founded, which I haven't been at for a year and a half, haven't been at for a year and a half, haven't been at for a year and a half, although I love those guys. So, you although I love those guys. So, you although I love those guys. So, you know, I think that's the thing that you know, I think that's the thing that you know, I think that's the thing that you have to be keeping in mind is that you have to be keeping in mind is that you have to be keeping in mind is that you doing the simple 10 seconds to 30 doing the simple 10 seconds to 30 doing the simple 10 seconds to 30 seconds of I'm going to verify that this seconds of I'm going to verify that this seconds of I'm going to verify that this is a real company. I'm going to put in is a real company. I'm going to put in is a real company. I'm going to put in me and the club.com. I'm going to see me and the club.com. I'm going to see me and the club.com. I'm going to see that this is Cody. This is what Cody that this is Cody. This is what Cody that this is Cody. This is what Cody does. Okay, I'm going to reach out to does. Okay, I'm going to reach out to does. Okay, I'm going to reach out to him. I always know you haven't done him. I always know you haven't done him. I always know you haven't done research on me if you say something research on me if you say something research on me if you say something that's like, "Oh, I I see that what that's like, "Oh, I I see that what that's like, "Oh, I I see that what you're doing at me in the club is

you're doing at me in the club is you're doing at me in the club is transforming, you know, data insights transforming, you know, data insights transforming, you know, data insights into actionable results." And I said, into actionable results." And I said, into actionable results." And I said, "Okay." "Okay." "Okay." >> Yeah. The entire the entire joke is that >> Yeah. The entire the entire joke is that >> Yeah. The entire the entire joke is that the name of what I do is literally it's the name of what I do is literally it's the name of what I do is literally it's me in the club. It's I'm either creating me in the club. It's I'm either creating me in the club. It's I'm either creating access for an artist or I'm in the board access for an artist or I'm in the board access for an artist or I'm in the board meetings with you as an executive. It is meetings with you as an executive. It is meetings with you as an executive. It is one side or the other side. If you one side or the other side. If you one side or the other side. If you address me as if this is a a address me as if this is a a address me as if this is a a multi-million dollar agency, you were multi-million dollar agency, you were multi-million dollar agency, you were spam. Goodbye. spam. Goodbye. spam. Goodbye. So, and and and this is and this is it. So, and and and this is and this is it. So, and and and this is and this is it. It's and I and I will tell you I I It's and I and I will tell you I I It's and I and I will tell you I I learned this also from you know the learned this also from you know the learned this also from you know the radio promo days which were not that radio promo days which were not that radio promo days which were not that long ago ultimately. I mean you know long ago ultimately. I mean you know long ago ultimately. I mean you know 2011 2012 was when I was really serious 2011 2012 was when I was really serious 2011 2012 was when I was really serious in that. And in that. And in that. And >> you know the thing that you learn is you >> you know the thing that you learn is you >> you know the thing that you learn is you can't just call a college radio station can't just call a college radio station can't just call a college radio station and expect every single one of them to and expect every single one of them to and expect every single one of them to play the same music as the last one you play the same music as the last one you play the same music as the last one you called. They don't. So, what you have to called. They don't. So, what you have to called. They don't. So, what you have to do is look at their website, do is look at their website, do is look at their website, >> see what host is on right now, maybe >> see what host is on right now, maybe >> see what host is on right now, maybe listen to the stream for a minute or listen to the stream for a minute or listen to the stream for a minute or two. If it's not a station you already two. If it's not a station you already two. If it's not a station you already know, figure out what they're about and know, figure out what they're about and know, figure out what they're about and then say hi. You will always get then say hi. You will always get then say hi. You will always get farther. It it turns it turns your farther. It it turns it turns your farther. It it turns it turns your response rate from something like, you response rate from something like, you response rate from something like, you know, 0.5% who does this guy think he is know, 0.5% who does this guy think he is know, 0.5% who does this guy think he is to 10%, oh my god, this is a radio to 10%, oh my god, this is a radio to 10%, oh my god, this is a radio promoter who cares that I exist. I

promoter who cares that I exist. I promoter who cares that I exist. I should say hi, but he has records for should say hi, but he has records for should say hi, but he has records for me. Big difference. me. Big difference. me. Big difference. >> Right. >> Right. >> Right. >> Right. >> Right. >> Right. >> You know, I have it on good authority >> You know, I have it on good authority >> You know, I have it on good authority that there is a uh there's a B2B lead that there is a uh there's a B2B lead that there is a uh there's a B2B lead gen platform that has an email gen platform that has an email gen platform that has an email verification tool built into it that verification tool built into it that verification tool built into it that could probably help these people avoid, could probably help these people avoid, could probably help these people avoid, you know, sending the spam. Just saying. you know, sending the spam. Just saying. you know, sending the spam. Just saying. Um these are the things I like to hear Um these are the things I like to hear Um these are the things I like to hear and I will tell you, um any uh any and I will tell you, um any uh any and I will tell you, um any uh any similar outreach I have ever seen come similar outreach I have ever seen come similar outreach I have ever seen come from Hunter Services does not scan a from Hunter Services does not scan a from Hunter Services does not scan a spam whatsoever. there is obviously a spam whatsoever. there is obviously a spam whatsoever. there is obviously a human being behind them somewhere. That human being behind them somewhere. That human being behind them somewhere. That is always nice. is always nice. is always nice. >> That is that's good to know. That's good >> That is that's good to know. That's good >> That is that's good to know. That's good to know. I I do remember actually just to know. I I do remember actually just to know. I I do remember actually just you know inside baseball here. I do you know inside baseball here. I do you know inside baseball here. I do remember um uh joining one of the the remember um uh joining one of the the remember um uh joining one of the the types of calls where I met someone like types of calls where I met someone like types of calls where I met someone like and saying just to be clear I am real. and saying just to be clear I am real. and saying just to be clear I am real. This is an AI avatar and he was like oh This is an AI avatar and he was like oh This is an AI avatar and he was like oh that's fantastic. And then we pretty that's fantastic. And then we pretty that's fantastic. And then we pretty much you know agreed on having a much you know agreed on having a much you know agreed on having a conversation and that was that. I I I conversation and that was that. I I I conversation and that was that. I I I joke a little, but Cody, and this has joke a little, but Cody, and this has joke a little, but Cody, and this has been fantastic talking to you today, and been fantastic talking to you today, and been fantastic talking to you today, and there is one question that we always there is one question that we always there is one question that we always like to ask um our guests, and and like to ask um our guests, and and like to ask um our guests, and and sometimes we get a positive, sometimes sometimes we get a positive, sometimes sometimes we get a positive, sometimes we get a negative, and um you know, so we get a negative, and um you know, so we get a negative, and um you know, so that is really what is the best cold that is really what is the best cold that is really what is the best cold email you've received and what did you email you've received and what did you email you've received and what did you like about it?

like about it? like about it? >> Oo, the best cold email I've received. >> Oo, the best cold email I've received. >> Oo, the best cold email I've received. Um I I mean I there are there are some Um I I mean I there are there are some Um I I mean I there are there are some where because of and there are some that where because of and there are some that where because of and there are some that are among the worst that have stuck in are among the worst that have stuck in are among the worst that have stuck in my my brain for longer. Um my my brain for longer. Um my my brain for longer. Um >> spill the tea on that. >> spill the tea on that. >> spill the tea on that. >> Well, there's some of them that I I mean >> Well, there's some of them that I I mean >> Well, there's some of them that I I mean there's there's some that I I'm not there's there's some that I I'm not there's there's some that I I'm not going to go into for content reasons going to go into for content reasons going to go into for content reasons that were hilarious where I was like, that were hilarious where I was like, that were hilarious where I was like, "Okay, I'll respond to this." But I will "Okay, I'll respond to this." But I will "Okay, I'll respond to this." But I will say that the uh I would say that the say that the uh I would say that the say that the uh I would say that the best ones that I get are usually best ones that I get are usually best ones that I get are usually something to the effect of, hey, I'm a something to the effect of, hey, I'm a something to the effect of, hey, I'm a real person. Heard about this thing you real person. Heard about this thing you real person. Heard about this thing you did with Dan a client of mine. Takes a did with Dan a client of mine. Takes a did with Dan a client of mine. Takes a little research. little research. little research. Do do you want to do you want to grab Do do you want to do you want to grab Do do you want to do you want to grab like 30 minutes this week and just talk? like 30 minutes this week and just talk? like 30 minutes this week and just talk? >> Done. Amazing. Perfect. Like that's >> Done. Amazing. Perfect. Like that's >> Done. Amazing. Perfect. Like that's great. that that for me is you know my great. that that for me is you know my great. that that for me is you know my my business model means that I not only my business model means that I not only my business model means that I not only need to spend time talking to my clients need to spend time talking to my clients need to spend time talking to my clients but I need to also spend time talking to but I need to also spend time talking to but I need to also spend time talking to prospective clients that is prospective clients that is prospective clients that is >> right >> right >> right >> simple math and when I see somebody >> simple math and when I see somebody >> simple math and when I see somebody doing something that I think is cool I doing something that I think is cool I doing something that I think is cool I do everything I can but that I to prove do everything I can but that I to prove do everything I can but that I to prove to them that I am a human being and to them that I am a human being and to them that I am a human being and sometimes and and I will also tell you sometimes and and I will also tell you sometimes and and I will also tell you proving you're a human being. One of the proving you're a human being. One of the proving you're a human being. One of the ways to do that is to show that you have

ways to do that is to show that you have ways to do that is to show that you have a little bit of a sense of humor a little bit of a sense of humor a little bit of a sense of humor somewhere. And I'm not saying the somewhere. And I'm not saying the somewhere. And I'm not saying the ridiculous put ons that I sometimes see ridiculous put ons that I sometimes see ridiculous put ons that I sometimes see where it'll be like, "Hi, it's just me, where it'll be like, "Hi, it's just me, where it'll be like, "Hi, it's just me, your spammy friend again. I've seen your spammy friend again. I've seen your spammy friend again. I've seen stuff like that before." Um, no, it's stuff like that before." Um, no, it's stuff like that before." Um, no, it's just you could make a sideways joke at just you could make a sideways joke at just you could make a sideways joke at some point in the first five sentences some point in the first five sentences some point in the first five sentences of your your email to me. It might be of your your email to me. It might be of your your email to me. It might be the corniest joke ever. and also be the corniest joke ever. and also be the corniest joke ever. and also be like, "Okay, I'd rather I'd rather read like, "Okay, I'd rather I'd rather read like, "Okay, I'd rather I'd rather read this than, you know, the the thing about this than, you know, the the thing about this than, you know, the the thing about how this person thinks they can help me how this person thinks they can help me how this person thinks they can help me get to the first page of Google, you get to the first page of Google, you get to the first page of Google, you know, and cuz we we all get a million of know, and cuz we we all get a million of know, and cuz we we all get a million of those." And those." And those." And >> I think that's the thing. It's like, you >> I think that's the thing. It's like, you >> I think that's the thing. It's like, you know, you spend so much time seeing what know, you spend so much time seeing what know, you spend so much time seeing what bad cold outreach looks like that seeing bad cold outreach looks like that seeing bad cold outreach looks like that seeing good outreach that just the tiniest good outreach that just the tiniest good outreach that just the tiniest little bit of thought was put into little bit of thought was put into little bit of thought was put into goes farther than you think. And it goes farther than you think. And it goes farther than you think. And it doesn't have to be very long, ego. doesn't have to be very long, ego. doesn't have to be very long, ego. >> No. Abs, absolutely not. And and the >> No. Abs, absolutely not. And and the >> No. Abs, absolutely not. And and the research that we've done uh over the research that we've done uh over the research that we've done uh over the last year or so has kind of really last year or so has kind of really last year or so has kind of really proven that, which is if you take your proven that, which is if you take your proven that, which is if you take your time to be personal, relevant, and show time to be personal, relevant, and show time to be personal, relevant, and show that you're trustworthy. That's when you that you're trustworthy. That's when you that you're trustworthy. That's when you start conversations. Notice I said start conversations. Notice I said start conversations. Notice I said conversations, not closing business off conversations, not closing business off conversations, not closing business off an email.

an email. an email. >> And this is and you know that and I will >> And this is and you know that and I will >> And this is and you know that and I will tell you about that too, James. I think tell you about that too, James. I think tell you about that too, James. I think this is another point and you know I this is another point and you know I this is another point and you know I think this is incredibly important think this is incredibly important think this is incredibly important actually is I go into every conversation actually is I go into every conversation actually is I go into every conversation thinking okay I should do this but it's thinking okay I should do this but it's thinking okay I should do this but it's probably not a sale probably not a sale probably not a sale even if I think it's going to be a sale even if I think it's going to be a sale even if I think it's going to be a sale and the reason why is because I don't and the reason why is because I don't and the reason why is because I don't want to go in guns blazing on somebody want to go in guns blazing on somebody want to go in guns blazing on somebody who a might not have the budget to hire who a might not have the budget to hire who a might not have the budget to hire a professional um B might not be at the a professional um B might not be at the a professional um B might not be at the point in their seed funding to hire point in their seed funding to hire point in their seed funding to hire marketing. Um C might not be talking to marketing. Um C might not be talking to marketing. Um C might not be talking to somebody in the right part of the somebody in the right part of the somebody in the right part of the industry without knowing it. That industry without knowing it. That industry without knowing it. That certainly happens. And certainly happens. And certainly happens. And after a while, what I'd rather do is after a while, what I'd rather do is after a while, what I'd rather do is say, "Hey, I'm a human being. I'm going say, "Hey, I'm a human being. I'm going say, "Hey, I'm a human being. I'm going to have a conversation with another to have a conversation with another to have a conversation with another human being. We're probably going to human being. We're probably going to human being. We're probably going to have another conversation after this. have another conversation after this. have another conversation after this. What does this look like? What are we What does this look like? What are we What does this look like? What are we doing here? Let's but let's just let's doing here? Let's but let's just let's doing here? Let's but let's just let's just talk to each other. And I'll tell just talk to each other. And I'll tell just talk to each other. And I'll tell you what, the number of times that I've you what, the number of times that I've you what, the number of times that I've had people say to me, "Hey, I'm not had people say to me, "Hey, I'm not had people say to me, "Hey, I'm not going to be in a position to hire you on going to be in a position to hire you on going to be in a position to hire you on this thing probably ever, but I know this thing probably ever, but I know this thing probably ever, but I know somebody who could." And let me make somebody who could." And let me make somebody who could." And let me make this intro. And that turns into this intro. And that turns into this intro. And that turns into business. Yeah, that's that that's business. Yeah, that's that that's business. Yeah, that's that that's happened quite a few times. And more happened quite a few times. And more happened quite a few times. And more importantly, I always want to be the importantly, I always want to be the importantly, I always want to be the person who goes into a room at a show person who goes into a room at a show person who goes into a room at a show around town in New York City, which is

around town in New York City, which is around town in New York City, which is where I'm based, where, you know, I walk where I'm based, where, you know, I walk where I'm based, where, you know, I walk in the room and there's 20 to 30 people in the room and there's 20 to 30 people in the room and there's 20 to 30 people who know what I'm about, but none of who know what I'm about, but none of who know what I'm about, but none of them have had bad energy from me. them have had bad energy from me. them have had bad energy from me. Because I'll tell you what, the person Because I'll tell you what, the person Because I'll tell you what, the person who really wants to take care of what who really wants to take care of what who really wants to take care of what they're building, who wants to talk to they're building, who wants to talk to they're building, who wants to talk to you, that knows they need somebody who's you, that knows they need somebody who's you, that knows they need somebody who's on the right side of things, they want on the right side of things, they want on the right side of things, they want to know that that person's coming from a to know that that person's coming from a to know that that person's coming from a good place. And it does not hurt to have good place. And it does not hurt to have good place. And it does not hurt to have other people vouching for you in a room other people vouching for you in a room other people vouching for you in a room where you're needed. where you're needed. where you're needed. >> That is the perfect way to wrap up this >> That is the perfect way to wrap up this >> That is the perfect way to wrap up this episode. I I think that is poetic. It episode. I I think that is poetic. It episode. I I think that is poetic. It brings us full circle. We talked a lot brings us full circle. We talked a lot brings us full circle. We talked a lot today about the the importance of just today about the the importance of just today about the the importance of just being human and I think that it's being human and I think that it's being human and I think that it's something that clearly is getting lost something that clearly is getting lost something that clearly is getting lost in the shuffle and early accelerated by in the shuffle and early accelerated by in the shuffle and early accelerated by AI accelerated by you know streaming AI accelerated by you know streaming AI accelerated by you know streaming platforms. Um, Cody, before we before we platforms. Um, Cody, before we before we platforms. Um, Cody, before we before we sign off today on Outf Fox, if you uh sign off today on Outf Fox, if you uh sign off today on Outf Fox, if you uh had to give a piece of advice to a had to give a piece of advice to a had to give a piece of advice to a founder that's listening right now when founder that's listening right now when founder that's listening right now when it comes to embracing the the fear of it comes to embracing the the fear of it comes to embracing the the fear of putting themselves out there and helping putting themselves out there and helping putting themselves out there and helping themselves actually grow their business themselves actually grow their business themselves actually grow their business from zero to 100, from zero to 100, from zero to 100, what would that be?

what would that be? what would that be? >> Two answers essentially. One of them >> Two answers essentially. One of them >> Two answers essentially. One of them would be um nobody knows what you're would be um nobody knows what you're would be um nobody knows what you're trying to do better than you. You are trying to do better than you. You are trying to do better than you. You are always going to be the person who can always going to be the person who can always going to be the person who can best state why you're doing a thing. And best state why you're doing a thing. And best state why you're doing a thing. And as we all know and we've seen the TED as we all know and we've seen the TED as we all know and we've seen the TED talks about over and over again, you talks about over and over again, you talks about over and over again, you always got to start with why. So that's always got to start with why. So that's always got to start with why. So that's the first thing I would say. The other the first thing I would say. The other the first thing I would say. The other thing that I would say, and I saw this thing that I would say, and I saw this thing that I would say, and I saw this as a a bit of advice that I got a little as a a bit of advice that I got a little as a a bit of advice that I got a little while ago, and I've actually started while ago, and I've actually started while ago, and I've actually started imparting this to startups I work with, imparting this to startups I work with, imparting this to startups I work with, and you know, they see it play out. When and you know, they see it play out. When and you know, they see it play out. When you go into a room asking for money, you you go into a room asking for money, you you go into a room asking for money, you will usually get advice. When you go will usually get advice. When you go will usually get advice. When you go into a room asking for advice, into a room asking for advice, into a room asking for advice, frequently you get money. And frequently you get money. And frequently you get money. And >> that is because at the end of the day, >> that is because at the end of the day, >> that is because at the end of the day, what you always want to be showing to what you always want to be showing to what you always want to be showing to people is that you have vision. because people is that you have vision. because people is that you have vision. because people want to invest in innovation from people want to invest in innovation from people want to invest in innovation from people with vision. They and that's and people with vision. They and that's and people with vision. They and that's and and that's really the thing that I I and that's really the thing that I I and that's really the thing that I I think you would want to take away from think you would want to take away from think you would want to take away from this is that you will over complicate this is that you will over complicate this is that you will over complicate certain things for yourself, but at the certain things for yourself, but at the certain things for yourself, but at the end of the day, people want to know that end of the day, people want to know that end of the day, people want to know that you're doing something that you believe you're doing something that you believe you're doing something that you believe in and that you've got vision.

in and that you've got vision. in and that you've got vision. >> That's brilliant. Thank you, Cody, for >> That's brilliant. Thank you, Cody, for >> That's brilliant. Thank you, Cody, for joining us today. It's been a pleasure. joining us today. It's been a pleasure. joining us today. It's been a pleasure. >> Thank you, James. And thank you for >> Thank you, James. And thank you for >> Thank you, James. And thank you for having me. And I hope that everybody having me. And I hope that everybody having me. And I hope that everybody listening to this has enjoyed. listening to this has enjoyed. listening to this has enjoyed. >> Once again, thank you to Cody for >> Once again, thank you to Cody for >> Once again, thank you to Cody for joining today's episode of Outfost. joining today's episode of Outfost. joining today's episode of Outfost. If you liked what you heard, please If you liked what you heard, please If you liked what you heard, please like, subscribe, and explore even more like, subscribe, and explore even more like, subscribe, and explore even more of the Outfox archive by visiting of the Outfox archive by visiting of the Outfox archive by visiting www.outfox.hunter.io. He was Cody McKini. I am James Milson He was Cody McKini. I am James Milson and we're out of