IoT Coffee Talk: Episode 219 - Pick Your Horse and Ride It!

hello pretty slim pickings hello pretty slim pickings today just you and me and all of our today just you and me and all of our today just you and me and all of our friends yeah Leonard was on for a while friends yeah Leonard was on for a while friends yeah Leonard was on for a while with a friend of his they were having with a friend of his they were having with a friend of his they were having breakfast us at a country club in breakfast us at a country club in breakfast us at a country club in soal which you know looked a lot more soal which you know looked a lot more soal which you know looked a lot more attractive to me than the North Pacific attractive to me than the North Pacific attractive to me than the North Pacific fog whatever cold here in the middle of summer so we chatted with him and his summer so we chatted with him and his buddy from his EVP over into it for a buddy from his EVP over into it for a buddy from his EVP over into it for a bit into it yeah uh quick in I used to bit into it yeah uh quick in I used to bit into it yeah uh quick in I used to use that's right yeah absolutely and use that's right yeah absolutely and use that's right yeah absolutely and guess what he's doing stuff with guess what he's doing stuff with guess what he's doing stuff with generative AI of course you mean like generative AI of course you mean like generative AI of course you mean like generating uh financial information like generating uh financial information like generating uh financial information like personal probably something like that he personal probably something like that he personal probably something like that he talked about how much money they spend talked about how much money they spend talked about how much money they spend on on on accountants brain power each year oh I accountants brain power each year oh I accountants brain power each year oh I see that kind of generative see that kind of generative see that kind of generative AI like I'm going to replace your job AI AI like I'm going to replace your job AI AI like I'm going to replace your job AI that kind of that kind of AI just just that kind of that kind of AI just just that kind of that kind of AI just just in case you didn't think there was any in case you didn't think there was any in case you didn't think there was any other kind other kind other kind folks the always low resource low impact folks the always low resource low impact folks the always low resource low impact low you know high impact low cost edji low you know high impact low cost edji low you know high impact low cost edji you know right that's right that's not you know right that's right that's not you know right that's right that's not about doesn't that doesn't actually about doesn't that doesn't actually about doesn't that doesn't actually replace jobs but you know whatever see replace jobs but you know whatever see replace jobs but you know whatever see there you go yeah wow just my my take on there you go yeah wow just my my take on there you go yeah wow just my my take on it that's a good take well since it's it that's a good take well since it's it that's a good take well since it's you and me we can hype our uh episode you and me we can hype our uh episode you and me we can hype our uh episode six that's coming up that was awesome six that's coming up that was awesome six that's coming up that was awesome man absolutely Joe B it was a good edit man absolutely Joe B it was a good edit man absolutely Joe B it was a good edit last night it was a good edit I think uh last night it was a good edit I think uh last night it was a good edit I think uh a lot of good stuff in there so for

a lot of good stuff in there so for a lot of good stuff in there so for those that don't know what we're talking those that don't know what we're talking those that don't know what we're talking about Windows foam WTF what are the about Windows foam WTF what are the about Windows foam WTF what are the facts series episode 6 six out of 9 yeah facts series episode 6 six out of 9 yeah facts series episode 6 six out of 9 yeah is coming out on the 30th live streamed is coming out on the 30th live streamed is coming out on the 30th live streamed on on on YouTube and it's uh special guest is Joe YouTube and it's uh special guest is Joe YouTube and it's uh special guest is Joe B fiori and the title is Thriller the B fiori and the title is Thriller the B fiori and the title is Thriller the birth of Windows birth of Windows birth of Windows phone including uh we do reference that phone including uh we do reference that phone including uh we do reference that dance and the the video in there so dance and the the video in there so dance and the the video in there so that's why for those that are in the that's why for those that are in the that's why for those that are in the know there was a there was a very famous know there was a there was a very famous know there was a there was a very famous parade that launched Windows phone that parade that launched Windows phone that parade that launched Windows phone that had a Thriller dance in it and also like had a Thriller dance in it and also like had a Thriller dance in it and also like an iPhone funeral that is the only way I an iPhone funeral that is the only way I an iPhone funeral that is the only way I would watch this video this episode as would watch this video this episode as would watch this video this episode as if there's a Thriller dance you that's if there's a Thriller dance you that's if there's a Thriller dance you that's that's going to pull people in I think that's going to pull people in I think that's going to pull people in I think we get Joe's realtime commentary on that we get Joe's realtime commentary on that we get Joe's realtime commentary on that whole whole whole situation but no it's a good it's a good situation but no it's a good it's a good situation but no it's a good it's a good episode about an hour and a half you episode about an hour and a half you episode about an hour and a half you know so it's you know it's a chunky know so it's you know it's a chunky know so it's you know it's a chunky chunky one get comfortable and this chunky one get comfortable and this chunky one get comfortable and this chunky you know we're eeking our way chunky you know we're eeking our way chunky you know we're eeking our way towards like Joe Rogen long form threeh towards like Joe Rogen long form threeh towards like Joe Rogen long form threeh hour a lot in there I mean I'm gonna hour a lot in there I mean I'm gonna hour a lot in there I mean I'm gonna talk to Lex for three hours about UFOs talk to Lex for three hours about UFOs talk to Lex for three hours about UFOs something you know yeah so everyone who's into a know yeah so everyone who's into a little Tech History and Windows Mobile little Tech History and Windows Mobile little Tech History and Windows Mobile Windows Phone check it out on the 30 Windows Phone check it out on the 30 Windows Phone check it out on the 30 yeah what a great time it was you know yeah what a great time it was you know yeah what a great time it was you know where are we today with phones I mean where are we today with phones I mean where are we today with phones I mean gosh boring gosh boring gosh boring boring slabs well there's foldable boring slabs well there's foldable boring slabs well there's foldable phones I think we talked about that last

phones I think we talked about that last phones I think we talked about that last time yeah like the Samsung unpacked time yeah like the Samsung unpacked time yeah like the Samsung unpacked event and right you know I I I have to event and right you know I I I have to event and right you know I I I have to give them credit they're hanging in give them credit they're hanging in give them credit they're hanging in there on the foldable and I guess once there on the foldable and I guess once there on the foldable and I guess once they get the price down you know then they get the price down you know then they get the price down you know then like why wouldn't you want a a bigger like why wouldn't you want a a bigger like why wouldn't you want a a bigger screen do you feel like maybe you and I screen do you feel like maybe you and I screen do you feel like maybe you and I need to have a personal meeting with need to have a personal meeting with need to have a personal meeting with their CEO and say just to give you some their CEO and say just to give you some their CEO and say just to give you some insight if you want these foldables to insight if you want these foldables to insight if you want these foldables to be the next big thing yeah it has to be be the next big thing yeah it has to be be the next big thing yeah it has to be priced in a way that people will allow priced in a way that people will allow priced in a way that people will allow you to make it be the next big thing you you to make it be the next big thing you you to make it be the next big thing you just about to get because you know when just about to get because you know when just about to get because you know when a foldable costs as much as a like house a foldable costs as much as a like house a foldable costs as much as a like house payment or something crazy you know you payment or something crazy you know you payment or something crazy you know you just eliminated so much of the market just eliminated so much of the market just eliminated so much of the market well I'm sure there's a lot of cost in well I'm sure there's a lot of cost in well I'm sure there's a lot of cost in there there's know the yield and all there there's know the yield and all there there's know the yield and all that stuff but uh and you know the the that stuff but uh and you know the the that stuff but uh and you know the the the issue is as these the higher it's the issue is as these the higher it's the issue is as these the higher it's just like a big SUV you know that's just like a big SUV you know that's just like a big SUV you know that's where all the margin is they get all the where all the margin is they get all the where all the margin is they get all the margin from the luxury right these margin from the luxury right these margin from the luxury right these things so they're probably their highest things so they're probably their highest things so they're probably their highest margin uh phones and I'm sure they've margin uh phones and I'm sure they've margin uh phones and I'm sure they've done the analysis done the analysis done the analysis on on elasticity price you know you on on elasticity price you know you on on elasticity price you know you always have what what there's that always have what what there's that always have what what there's that company or these people who do tear company or these people who do tear company or these people who do tear Downs of all the phones and yeah figure Downs of all the phones and yeah figure Downs of all the phones and yeah figure out what the parts actually cost and all out what the parts actually cost and all out what the parts actually cost and all that kind of stuff and you find out you that kind of stuff and you find out you that kind of stuff and you find out you know bill of materials they call it know bill of materials they call it know bill of materials they call it right put in a blender they see if it right put in a blender they see if it right put in a blender they see if it Blends you know see if it Blends but Blends you know see if it Blends but Blends you know see if it Blends but then they can figure out this is what it then they can figure out this is what it then they can figure out this is what it actually cost Apple to make this phone actually cost Apple to make this phone actually cost Apple to make this phone this is what you're paying yeah right this is what you're paying yeah right this is what you're paying yeah right it's called profit you know so I mean it's called profit you know so I mean it's called profit you know so I mean you can't fault people for right they're

you can't fault people for right they're you can't fault people for right they're actually selling it to you for more than actually selling it to you for more than actually selling it to you for more than they're making they cost them to make it they're making they cost them to make it they're making they cost them to make it oh my God what oh my God what oh my God what what a ripoff what a ripoff I can't what a ripoff what a ripoff I can't what a ripoff what a ripoff I can't believe that it should be at Cost I yeah believe that it should be at Cost I yeah believe that it should be at Cost I yeah you should just do it as a service you you should just do it as a service you you should just do it as a service you know oh my gosh yeah yeah no it' be it know oh my gosh yeah yeah no it' be it know oh my gosh yeah yeah no it' be it be so someone I think what's gonna be so someone I think what's gonna be so someone I think what's gonna happen is you got Samsung up there happen is you got Samsung up there happen is you got Samsung up there someone's gonna come in and disrupt and someone's gonna come in and disrupt and someone's gonna come in and disrupt and come up with some kind of lower cost you come up with some kind of lower cost you come up with some kind of lower cost you know way of doing these things and then know way of doing these things and then know way of doing these things and then that disrupt the market but I don't I that disrupt the market but I don't I that disrupt the market but I don't I don't expect Samsung to cannibalize don't expect Samsung to cannibalize don't expect Samsung to cannibalize their high their high their high margin business but you're right there's margin business but you're right there's margin business but you're right there's some uh you know you when whenever new some uh you know you when whenever new some uh you know you when whenever new things come out and you see lots of news things come out and you see lots of news things come out and you see lots of news happening and lotss of people doing happening and lotss of people doing happening and lotss of people doing reviews of these things and and so some reviews of these things and and so some reviews of these things and and so some people have been there's the fold and people have been there's the fold and people have been there's the fold and there's the flip um that they have and a there's the flip um that they have and a there's the flip um that they have and a lot of people compared you know lot of people compared you know lot of people compared you know Motorola's got a razor kind of a flip Motorola's got a razor kind of a flip Motorola's got a razor kind of a flip phone that people are saying is neck and phone that people are saying is neck and phone that people are saying is neck and neck or might be better I don't know neck or might be better I don't know neck or might be better I don't know yeah I know I mean you know motor roll yeah I know I mean you know motor roll yeah I know I mean you know motor roll has got the got the legitimate air to has got the got the legitimate air to has got the got the legitimate air to the throne on flip phones so they sure the throne on flip phones so they sure the throne on flip phones so they sure do they sure do R azr exactly exactly do they sure do R azr exactly exactly do they sure do R azr exactly exactly actually a funny headline when uh actually a funny headline when uh actually a funny headline when uh remember when uh the guy Xander was the remember when uh the guy Xander was the remember when uh the guy Xander was the CEO and he left yes the headline was the CEO and he left yes the headline was the CEO and he left yes the headline was the headline was Xander Za Z ndr is a goner headline was Xander Za Z ndr is a goner headline was Xander Za Z ndr is a goner G NR oh wasn't Xander an Exon G NR oh wasn't Xander an Exon G NR oh wasn't Xander an Exon Microsystems guy I think so I thought he Microsystems guy I think so I thought he Microsystems guy I think so I thought he was yeah he took over Motorola but it

was yeah he took over Motorola but it was yeah he took over Motorola but it was a tough time for Motorola and was a tough time for Motorola and was a tough time for Motorola and unfortunately he was holding the wheel unfortunately he was holding the wheel unfortunately he was holding the wheel um yeah there you know it's interesting um yeah there you know it's interesting um yeah there you know it's interesting there's a lot of you don't hear no one I there's a lot of you don't hear no one I there's a lot of you don't hear no one I don't you know in the history of don't you know in the history of don't you know in the history of computing and all the stuff like computing and all the stuff like computing and all the stuff like obviously we're doing with phones and obviously we're doing with phones and obviously we're doing with phones and you see stuff like that I don't see much you see stuff like that I don't see much you see stuff like that I don't see much about the history of sun Microsystems or about the history of sun Microsystems or about the history of sun Microsystems or or at least bringing those into the the or at least bringing those into the the or at least bringing those into the the Canon of the Computer History you know Canon of the Computer History you know Canon of the Computer History you know it's always are you suggesting another it's always are you suggesting another it's always are you suggesting another nine-part series on sun Microsystems and nine-part series on sun Microsystems and nine-part series on sun Microsystems and Java maybe you know it's always Jobs Java maybe you know it's always Jobs Java maybe you know it's always Jobs versus Gates and you know like TF that's versus Gates and you know like TF that's versus Gates and you know like TF that's that's yes yes there you go because that's yes yes there you go because that's yes yes there you go because there's a whole other world of people there's a whole other world of people there's a whole other world of people out there that live that life you know out there that live that life you know out there that live that life you know yeah no it was it was a big I would say yeah no it was it was a big I would say yeah no it was it was a big I would say alternate universe but it was a very alternate universe but it was a very alternate universe but it was a very popular platform that had a ton of popular platform that had a ton of popular platform that had a ton of community I was actually on the community I was actually on the community I was actually on the executive the JCP executive committee executive the JCP executive committee executive the JCP executive committee for a little while because I worked at a for a little while because I worked at a for a little while because I worked at a company that did embedded Java we had company that did embedded Java we had company that did embedded Java we had our own jvm that's awesome Insignia our own jvm that's awesome Insignia our own jvm that's awesome Insignia Solutions remember Insignia yeah I do Solutions remember Insignia yeah I do Solutions remember Insignia yeah I do absolutely so they had their own we absolutely so they had their own we absolutely so they had their own we wrote Our own jvm our own Dynamic wrote Our own jvm our own Dynamic wrote Our own jvm our own Dynamic adaptive compiler like we were really adaptive compiler like we were really adaptive compiler like we were really into it and uh it was like super high into it and uh it was like super high into it and uh it was like super high performance you know performance you know performance you know J you know there's a whole story there J you know there's a whole story there J you know there's a whole story there there's a story there's probably a story there's a story there's probably a story there's a story there's probably a story about Java for sure and a lot of people about Java for sure and a lot of people about Java for sure and a lot of people just synonymously think about Java when just synonymously think about Java when just synonymously think about Java when they think of sun but you know Sun they think of sun but you know Sun they think of sun but you know Sun started with some brilliant you know started with some brilliant you know started with some brilliant you know server you know they Hardware people

server you know they Hardware people server you know they Hardware people they built servers workst Ultra high-end they built servers workst Ultra high-end they built servers workst Ultra high-end workstations you know someone cuts us to workstations you know someone cuts us to workstations you know someone cuts us to check for six figures I'm happy to do check for six figures I'm happy to do check for six figures I'm happy to do another another another series you know well well Macintosh is series you know well well Macintosh is series you know well well Macintosh is doing this thing and then there's next doing this thing and then there's next doing this thing and then there's next doing this thing and Bill G's over here doing this thing and Bill G's over here doing this thing and Bill G's over here doing Windows doing the 90s and doing Windows doing the 90s and doing Windows doing the 90s and obviously doesn't have any taste obviously doesn't have any taste obviously doesn't have any taste according to Steve Jobs um but hiding in according to Steve Jobs um but hiding in according to Steve Jobs um but hiding in the background not at Circuit City but the background not at Circuit City but the background not at Circuit City but somewhere else there were these Sun somewhere else there were these Sun somewhere else there were these Sun Microsystems workstations which are Microsystems workstations which are Microsystems workstations which are probably closer to like Silicon Graphics probably closer to like Silicon Graphics probably closer to like Silicon Graphics I mean all yeah there performance I mean all yeah there performance I mean all yeah there performance workstations this is like preent right I workstations this is like preent right I workstations this is like preent right I mean yeah yeah you know but even with NT mean yeah yeah you know but even with NT mean yeah yeah you know but even with NT you know you know if you remember the you know you know if you remember the you know you know if you remember the 90s of Microsoft there was NE there was 90s of Microsoft there was NE there was 90s of Microsoft there was NE there was not it wasn't like there was a crown put not it wasn't like there was a crown put not it wasn't like there was a crown put on Microsoft you're now an Enterprise on Microsoft you're now an Enterprise on Microsoft you're now an Enterprise company no people were kicking sand in company no people were kicking sand in company no people were kicking sand in our face all throughout the '90s saying our face all throughout the '90s saying our face all throughout the '90s saying you're not a real Enterprise company you're not a real Enterprise company you're not a real Enterprise company you're not serious you have to keep you're not serious you have to keep you're not serious you have to keep rebooting your system 31 you know Sol rebooting your system 31 you know Sol rebooting your system 31 you know Sol you know yeah and so you had people at you know yeah and so you had people at you know yeah and so you had people at Oracle who were like you guys aren't Oracle who were like you guys aren't Oracle who were like you guys aren't Enterprise Sun micro system silicon Enterprise Sun micro system silicon Enterprise Sun micro system silicon Graphics it's like this is the real deal Graphics it's like this is the real deal Graphics it's like this is the real deal Unix you know Unix when it actually has Unix you know Unix when it actually has Unix you know Unix when it actually has to to to work well you know you touch upon the work well you know you touch upon the work well you know you touch upon the whole thing about jav the reason why whole thing about jav the reason why whole thing about jav the reason why Java had so much energy behind it was Java had so much energy behind it was Java had so much energy behind it was because there was such a fracturing of

because there was such a fracturing of because there was such a fracturing of platforms back then yeah and to this day platforms back then yeah and to this day platforms back then yeah and to this day if you talk about IO T right an edge if you talk about IO T right an edge if you talk about IO T right an edge Computing there's still this desire to Computing there's still this desire to Computing there's still this desire to sort of write once and run anywhere yeah sort of write once and run anywhere yeah sort of write once and run anywhere yeah uh which is always a bit of a you know uh which is always a bit of a you know uh which is always a bit of a you know unicorn with wings on it's not possible unicorn with wings on it's not possible unicorn with wings on it's not possible but um even today with AI right it's but um even today with AI right it's but um even today with AI right it's like oh I I want my AI model I'm going like oh I I want my AI model I'm going like oh I I want my AI model I'm going to I got my data set I'm going to train to I got my data set I'm going to train to I got my data set I'm going to train my model and I want it to run across all my model and I want it to run across all my model and I want it to run across all these different you know Edge platforms these different you know Edge platforms these different you know Edge platforms accelerate it's like no it doesn't work accelerate it's like no it doesn't work accelerate it's like no it doesn't work that way doesn't work that way doesn't that way doesn't work that way doesn't that way doesn't work that way doesn't so Java was like oh we'll create we'll so Java was like oh we'll create we'll so Java was like oh we'll create we'll create this contain like basically create this contain like basically create this contain like basically containerized workload and it'll run containerized workload and it'll run containerized workload and it'll run inside of this thing and then people inside of this thing and then people inside of this thing and then people will Port their VMS to all these will Port their VMS to all these will Port their VMS to all these different funky things and everything different funky things and everything different funky things and everything will just run right from the developer will just run right from the developer will just run right from the developer side which you know didn't kind of side which you know didn't kind of side which you know didn't kind of worked but it was like slow as [ __ ] for worked but it was like slow as [ __ ] for worked but it was like slow as [ __ ] for most it was slow I remember um a lot of most it was slow I remember um a lot of most it was slow I remember um a lot of people don't real so you obviously James people don't real so you obviously James people don't real so you obviously James Gosling is the father of java Y and what Gosling is the father of java Y and what Gosling is the father of java Y and what a lot of people who weren't in that a lot of people who weren't in that a lot of people who weren't in that world don't realize is Java was world don't realize is Java was world don't realize is Java was originally made for embedded stuff for originally made for embedded stuff for originally made for embedded stuff for set to boxes and things like that set to boxes and things like that set to boxes and things like that there's it's there he is it's Duke du there's it's there he is it's Duke du there's it's there he is it's Duke du yes I used to go to that event every yes I used to go to that event every yes I used to go to that event every year yeah Java one Java one yeah yeah it year yeah Java one Java one yeah yeah it year yeah Java one Java one yeah yeah it was cool I got this i got this as Java was cool I got this i got this as Java was cool I got this i got this as Java one yeah I think I so this is in fact one yeah I think I so this is in fact one yeah I think I so this is in fact this is a puppet there's a there's a this is a puppet there's a there's a this is a puppet there's a there's a thing so if you really wanted to oh get thing so if you really wanted to oh get thing so if you really wanted to oh get into it that's awesome fully articulated into it that's awesome fully articulated into it that's awesome fully articulated uh Java one puppet Java puppet I love uh Java one puppet Java puppet I love uh Java one puppet Java puppet I love that it's interesting though isn't

that it's interesting though isn't that it's interesting though isn't interesting how different Tech interesting how different Tech interesting how different Tech streams will be happening not one after streams will be happening not one after streams will be happening not one after the other but concurrently and depending the other but concurrently and depending the other but concurrently and depending on which universe or or Multiverse on which universe or or Multiverse on which universe or or Multiverse you're in that's your whole life and you're in that's your whole life and you're in that's your whole life and then other people could completely then other people could completely then other people could completely ignore it um you know because I've I've ignore it um you know because I've I've ignore it um you know because I've I've had people make fun of me following the had people make fun of me following the had people make fun of me following the Microsoft track through my career where Microsoft track through my career where Microsoft track through my career where there's other people who grew up you there's other people who grew up you there's other people who grew up you know out of University into Big Time know out of University into Big Time know out of University into Big Time stuff and it was all mini computers or stuff and it was all mini computers or stuff and it was all mini computers or Unix and stuff like that and then Linux Unix and stuff like that and then Linux Unix and stuff like that and then Linux and then sun and all that and that was and then sun and all that and that was and then sun and all that and that was their world the whole time and they their world the whole time and they their world the whole time and they would laugh at Microsoft stuff down at would laugh at Microsoft stuff down at would laugh at Microsoft stuff down at you know Egghead you know Egghead you know Egghead software right you know it's like come software right you know it's like come software right you know it's like come on guys they didn't buy the stock back on guys they didn't buy the stock back on guys they didn't buy the stock back then I guess but I guess right not then I guess but I guess right not then I guess but I guess right not laughing now not laughing now exactly um laughing now not laughing now exactly um laughing now not laughing now exactly um and so yeah I find that pretty and so yeah I find that pretty and so yeah I find that pretty interesting how you can have the interesting how you can have the interesting how you can have the Multiverse is real in technology merse Multiverse is real in technology merse Multiverse is real in technology merse is real in the tech world and you know is real in the tech world and you know is real in the tech world and you know and these are solving in you know we and these are solving in you know we and these are solving in you know we keep trying to solve the same problems keep trying to solve the same problems keep trying to solve the same problems over over again the idea of code over over again the idea of code over over again the idea of code portability if you're a developer right portability if you're a developer right portability if you're a developer right I mean like like you have these I mean like like you have these I mean like like you have these Frameworks like Spotify like electron Frameworks like Spotify like electron Frameworks like Spotify like electron app Frameworks and these other things app Frameworks and these other things app Frameworks and these other things where it's like well I want to write an where it's like well I want to write an where it's like well I want to write an app but I really don't want to rewrite app but I really don't want to rewrite app but I really don't want to rewrite it for each platform so I'll write it in it for each platform so I'll write it in it for each platform so I'll write it in this framework and then the framework this framework and then the framework this framework and then the framework will work right and it's the same thing will work right and it's the same thing will work right and it's the same thing code portability is just one of those code portability is just one of those code portability is just one of those issues that's been around since the issues that's been around since the issues that's been around since the beginning of time and that's what beginning of time and that's what beginning of time and that's what virtual virtual virtualization on the

virtual virtual virtualization on the virtual virtual virtualization on the cloud I mean yeah know that's code cloud I mean yeah know that's code cloud I mean yeah know that's code portability right it's a virtualized portability right it's a virtualized portability right it's a virtualized machine and I mean I thought the jbm machine and I mean I thought the jbm machine and I mean I thought the jbm idea was a great idea I knew people even idea was a great idea I knew people even idea was a great idea I knew people even today who I mean there's still tons of today who I mean there's still tons of today who I mean there's still tons of java being written all all the time java being written all all the time java being written all all the time arguably that's the core of the Android arguably that's the core of the Android arguably that's the core of the Android OS is a yeah absolutely uh but even in OS is a yeah absolutely uh but even in OS is a yeah absolutely uh but even in Cloud big stuff I've heard people say oh Cloud big stuff I've heard people say oh Cloud big stuff I've heard people say oh we're not using containers or or Docker we're not using containers or or Docker we're not using containers or or Docker or any of that stuff we jvm's already or any of that stuff we jvm's already or any of that stuff we jvm's already does that stuff I don't know what you does that stuff I don't know what you does that stuff I don't know what you guys are talking about or why you're guys are talking about or why you're guys are talking about or why you're wasting your time with that and I'm like wasting your time with that and I'm like wasting your time with that and I'm like Docker allows you to say it works on my Docker allows you to say it works on my Docker allows you to say it works on my machine oh and now my machine is working machine oh and now my machine is working machine oh and now my machine is working on a server right I drink your milkshake on a server right I drink your milkshake on a server right I drink your milkshake that's right I drink your milkshake um that's right I drink your milkshake um that's right I drink your milkshake um you know but breaking me as a writer you know but breaking me as a writer you know but breaking me as a writer writing technical books and articles I writing technical books and articles I writing technical books and articles I actually it's all about Java I got my actually it's all about Java I got my actually it's all about Java I got my start in the 90s writing articles for start in the 90s writing articles for start in the 90s writing articles for Java developers Java developers Java developers Journal uh when Java was hot which which Journal uh when Java was hot which which Journal uh when Java was hot which which is funny because the '90s were also when is funny because the '90s were also when is funny because the '90s were also when Visual Basic was hot and active Serv Visual Basic was hot and active Serv Visual Basic was hot and active Serv Pages came out and the web was exploding Pages came out and the web was exploding Pages came out and the web was exploding but at the same time Java was a new but at the same time Java was a new but at the same time Java was a new thing you know like kind of H half I'd thing you know like kind of H half I'd thing you know like kind of H half I'd say the second half of the 90s right you say the second half of the 90s right you say the second half of the 90s right you know you got when you finally had Java know you got when you finally had Java know you got when you finally had Java 10 and then 1.2 and all that well you 10 and then 1.2 and all that well you 10 and then 1.2 and all that well you could argue that ja I mean you know could argue that ja I mean you know could argue that ja I mean you know Android sort of proven out if you have Android sort of proven out if you have Android sort of proven out if you have enough semiconductor horsepower under enough semiconductor horsepower under enough semiconductor horsepower under the hood to run jvms then it's a great the hood to run jvms then it's a great the hood to run jvms then it's a great idea yeah um it's just at the time you idea yeah um it's just at the time you idea yeah um it's just at the time you know things were pretty underpowered I know things were pretty underpowered I know things were pretty underpowered I mean I remember back in the early 2000s

mean I remember back in the early 2000s mean I remember back in the early 2000s yeah we were porting our VM into lots of yeah we were porting our VM into lots of yeah we were porting our VM into lots of different platforms and you know it's different platforms and you know it's different platforms and you know it's pretty good for embedded things and pretty good for embedded things and pretty good for embedded things and stuff but like right real user stuff but like right real user stuff but like right real user interaction it was like a little sloggy interaction it was like a little sloggy interaction it was like a little sloggy and uh I think the first time people and uh I think the first time people and uh I think the first time people ever heard the term jet compiler was ever heard the term jet compiler was ever heard the term jet compiler was because of java just in time because because of java just in time because because of java just in time because Java was about this whole weird bite Java was about this whole weird bite Java was about this whole weird bite code thing as you said going into a code thing as you said going into a code thing as you said going into a framework and this kind is Java virtual framework and this kind is Java virtual framework and this kind is Java virtual machine and then the jit compiler would machine and then the jit compiler would machine and then the jit compiler would turn it into native code for the turn it into native code for the turn it into native code for the platform underneath that's right right platform underneath that's right right platform underneath that's right right um and yeah there was that notion of um and yeah there was that notion of um and yeah there was that notion of java being slow I remember kind of had java being slow I remember kind of had java being slow I remember kind of had that Ding yeah I remember the late 90s that Ding yeah I remember the late 90s that Ding yeah I remember the late 90s when Microsoft got on board with visual when Microsoft got on board with visual when Microsoft got on board with visual j++ um and there's a whole story there j++ um and there's a whole story there j++ um and there's a whole story there folks um if you love stories about folks um if you love stories about folks um if you love stories about lawsuits and that's why you tune in to lawsuits and that's why you tune in to lawsuits and that's why you tune in to the Microsoft Channel if you want to the Microsoft Channel if you want to the Microsoft Channel if you want to hear visual j++ WTF you know yeah hear visual j++ WTF you know yeah hear visual j++ WTF you know yeah exactly the exactly the exactly the Microsoft for a while there was enough Microsoft for a while there was enough Microsoft for a while there was enough love where son says we're gonna leave it love where son says we're gonna leave it love where son says we're gonna leave it to Microsoft engineering to build the to Microsoft engineering to build the to Microsoft engineering to build the jbm for Windows because they know jbm for Windows because they know jbm for Windows because they know Windows better and it was noticeably Windows better and it was noticeably Windows better and it was noticeably faster than other jvms running in other faster than other jvms running in other faster than other jvms running in other places and then of course you know places and then of course you know places and then of course you know there's the other story remember there there's the other story remember there there's the other story remember there was an earlier battle between Microsoft was an earlier battle between Microsoft was an earlier battle between Microsoft and and and Borland uh programming language Wars Borland uh programming language Wars Borland uh programming language Wars right because Microsoft was originally right because Microsoft was originally right because Microsoft was originally you know that's what the business was it you know that's what the business was it you know that's what the business was it was languages and stuff like that

was languages and stuff like that was languages and stuff like that developer company and compilers and developer company and compilers and developer company and compilers and stuff in the earlier days it was stuff in the earlier days it was stuff in the earlier days it was Microsoft versus Borland um Borland was Microsoft versus Borland um Borland was Microsoft versus Borland um Borland was building C+ building C+ building C+ plus turbo Pascal turbo Pascal arguably plus turbo Pascal turbo Pascal arguably plus turbo Pascal turbo Pascal arguably the most single most important hire ever the most single most important hire ever the most single most important hire ever made by Microsoft Anders made by Microsoft Anders made by Microsoft Anders hilburg uh was the guy who created turbo hilburg uh was the guy who created turbo hilburg uh was the guy who created turbo Pascal and then he ultimately created Pascal and then he ultimately created Pascal and then he ultimately created Deli at Borland uh which was as easy to Deli at Borland uh which was as easy to Deli at Borland uh which was as easy to use as Visual Basic and yet it was use as Visual Basic and yet it was use as Visual Basic and yet it was faster than C++ was object Pascal I know faster than C++ was object Pascal I know faster than C++ was object Pascal I know all you people find this really all you people find this really all you people find this really interesting don't you fasinating well yeah interestingly Dev fasinating well yeah interestingly Dev tools I mean Dev tools are obviously tools I mean Dev tools are obviously tools I mean Dev tools are obviously still a big part of the Microsoft still a big part of the Microsoft still a big part of the Microsoft culture yeah yeah and well I mean there culture yeah yeah and well I mean there culture yeah yeah and well I mean there was a time when it's like everybody in was a time when it's like everybody in was a time when it's like everybody in Microsoft Microsoft Microsoft codes the janitor codes the secretary codes the janitor codes the secretary codes the janitor codes the secretary codes everybody's a developer developer codes everybody's a developer developer codes everybody's a developer developer um at Microsoft you know um video and so um at Microsoft you know um video and so um at Microsoft you know um video and so an interesting tie-in there's two an interesting tie-in there's two an interesting tie-in there's two tie-ins from Borland in that early World tie-ins from Borland in that early World tie-ins from Borland in that early World Philip Khan was the CEO of Borland to Philip Khan was the CEO of Borland to Philip Khan was the CEO of Borland to the uh a camera phone by the way he was the uh a camera phone by the way he was the uh a camera phone by the way he was fiery personality if you remember yeah fiery personality if you remember yeah fiery personality if you remember yeah yeah I remember I met him several times yeah I remember I met him several times yeah I remember I met him several times he was the he pioneered the camera phone he was the he pioneered the camera phone he was the he pioneered the camera phone putting a phone a camera in your that's putting a phone a camera in your that's putting a phone a camera in your that's pretty amazing it's pretty amazing and pretty amazing it's pretty amazing and pretty amazing it's pretty amazing and so not only did we get Anders because so not only did we get Anders because so not only did we get Anders because Anders Anders ultimately created net and Anders Anders ultimately created net and Anders Anders ultimately created net and he created C and all that stuff which is he created C and all that stuff which is he created C and all that stuff which is kind of a big deal for us and typescript kind of a big deal for us and typescript kind of a big deal for us and typescript um and I remember that back and forth

um and I remember that back and forth um and I remember that back and forth about stealing him away from Borland you about stealing him away from Borland you about stealing him away from Borland you know Microsoft's going to pay him this know Microsoft's going to pay him this know Microsoft's going to pay him this big money and Borland says we'll double big money and Borland says we'll double big money and Borland says we'll double your money and then I think Bill Gates your money and then I think Bill Gates your money and then I think Bill Gates said something to the effect of how far said something to the effect of how far said something to the effect of how far do you want to go with this I I could do you want to go with this I I could do you want to go with this I I could bankrupt your bankrupt your bankrupt your company in order to get this guy's brain company in order to get this guy's brain company in order to get this guy's brain um but Andrew caused a lot of problems um but Andrew caused a lot of problems um but Andrew caused a lot of problems and stir in the pot in the Java world and stir in the pot in the Java world and stir in the pot in the Java world because he thought there were a lot of because he thought there were a lot of because he thought there were a lot of flaws in how Java was designed and he flaws in how Java was designed and he flaws in how Java was designed and he came came up with better ways to do came came up with better ways to do came came up with better ways to do things um that broke things um that broke things um that broke Java uh and made it way better but it Java uh and made it way better but it Java uh and made it way better but it broke it and then led to a giant lawsuit broke it and then led to a giant lawsuit broke it and then led to a giant lawsuit from Sun against from Sun against from Sun against Microsoft uh you know the whole Embrace Microsoft uh you know the whole Embrace Microsoft uh you know the whole Embrace and extent and all that kind of all and extent and all that kind of all and extent and all that kind of all these these these terms ex crushing Embrace yeah and it's terms ex crushing Embrace yeah and it's terms ex crushing Embrace yeah and it's like you know and so Scott MCN who was like you know and so Scott MCN who was like you know and so Scott MCN who was the CEO for most of the time at Sun he the CEO for most of the time at Sun he the CEO for most of the time at Sun he was like losing it he's like Microsoft's was like losing it he's like Microsoft's was like losing it he's like Microsoft's you know you know you know pising pising pising Java you know Anders is like no I'm just Java you know Anders is like no I'm just Java you know Anders is like no I'm just a whole lot smarter than all of you a whole lot smarter than all of you a whole lot smarter than all of you people and inner classes and some of people and inner classes and some of people and inner classes and some of these other the way J and I to talk to these other the way J and I to talk to these other the way J and I to talk to Native platforms is crap here's how you Native platforms is crap here's how you Native platforms is crap here's how you should do it all the things he did he should do it all the things he did he should do it all the things he did he put in J the last version of visual j++ put in J the last version of visual j++ put in J the last version of visual j++ 6 uh and it was but if you you have to 6 uh and it was but if you you have to 6 uh and it was but if you you have to be a real developer gig to care about be a real developer gig to care about be a real developer gig to care about this stuff folks if you look at the last this stuff folks if you look at the last this stuff folks if you look at the last version of visual studio in the 90s version of visual studio in the 90s version of visual studio in the 90s before we got into the net before we got into the net before we got into the net era and you launch Visual Studio

era and you launch Visual Studio era and you launch Visual Studio whatever it was 97 98 whatever the last whatever it was 97 98 whatever the last whatever it was 97 98 whatever the last version was in the '90s version was in the '90s version was in the '90s j++ was delayed it didn't ship at the j++ was delayed it didn't ship at the j++ was delayed it didn't ship at the exact same time as everything else it's exact same time as everything else it's exact same time as everything else it's because Anders was coming on board and because Anders was coming on board and because Anders was coming on board and Anders totally tore it apart yeah Anders totally tore it apart yeah Anders totally tore it apart yeah redoing and if you use the last version redoing and if you use the last version redoing and if you use the last version of j+ Plus's IDE you'll go oh my God of j+ Plus's IDE you'll go oh my God of j+ Plus's IDE you'll go oh my God it's net it looks like the visual it's net it looks like the visual it's net it looks like the visual studio.net that you would see in the studio.net that you would see in the studio.net that you would see in the 2000s the way it worked and everything 2000s the way it worked and everything 2000s the way it worked and everything and so you kind of see the Genesis uh and so you kind of see the Genesis uh and so you kind of see the Genesis uh and people talked about project cool in and people talked about project cool in and people talked about project cool in the late 9s to build a c you know and a the late 9s to build a c you know and a the late 9s to build a c you know and a kind of a I don't want to call it a kind of a I don't want to call it a kind of a I don't want to call it a knockoff of java bite code deal because knockoff of java bite code deal because knockoff of java bite code deal because it was certainly much faster inspired by it was certainly much faster inspired by it was certainly much faster inspired by yeah inspired by exactly we actually I yeah inspired by exactly we actually I yeah inspired by exactly we actually I have a simil another jvm story so we have a simil another jvm story so we have a simil another jvm story so we were I was in Insignia we were writing were I was in Insignia we were writing were I was in Insignia we were writing these we had this little embedded jvm it these we had this little embedded jvm it these we had this little embedded jvm it was you know it was faster than Suns was you know it was faster than Suns was you know it was faster than Suns because we had this kind of architecture because we had this kind of architecture because we had this kind of architecture to interpret the bite codes in a certain to interpret the bite codes in a certain to interpret the bite codes in a certain way and do some fast stuff but we had way and do some fast stuff but we had way and do some fast stuff but we had ported it to a new platform this is in ported it to a new platform this is in ported it to a new platform this is in 2001 called um I think it was I think at 2001 called um I think it was I think at 2001 called um I think it was I think at the time it was called Windows CE or Mo the time it was called Windows CE or Mo the time it was called Windows CE or Mo like it was like the early Microsoft like it was like the early Microsoft like it was like the early Microsoft mobile phone mobile phone mobile phone platform yeah we demoed it at Java 1 I platform yeah we demoed it at Java 1 I platform yeah we demoed it at Java 1 I think it was in 2002 maybe we demoed think it was in 2002 maybe we demoed think it was in 2002 maybe we demoed like the Microsoft mobile phone running like the Microsoft mobile phone running like the Microsoft mobile phone running Java midlets oh which kind of blew Java midlets oh which kind of blew Java midlets oh which kind of blew everyone's mind because they're like uh everyone's mind because they're like uh everyone's mind because they're like uh oh now's going to ship you on this phone oh now's going to ship you on this phone oh now's going to ship you on this phone all the Java midlets and stuff right and

all the Java midlets and stuff right and all the Java midlets and stuff right and uh got a lot of press on that we were a uh got a lot of press on that we were a uh got a lot of press on that we were a tiny little company like 25 50 people tiny little company like 25 50 people tiny little company like 25 50 people whatever um it was a big deal we were a whatever um it was a big deal we were a whatever um it was a big deal we were a Microsoft partner yeah uh and they of Microsoft partner yeah uh and they of Microsoft partner yeah uh and they of course Microsoft was very excited about course Microsoft was very excited about course Microsoft was very excited about bringing Java to their platform and all bringing Java to their platform and all bringing Java to their platform and all these Java midlets that would just run these Java midlets that would just run these Java midlets that would just run quote unquote yeah um so yeah so it was quote unquote yeah um so yeah so it was quote unquote yeah um so yeah so it was a big deal that was my that was kind of a big deal that was my that was kind of a big deal that was my that was kind of one of my big Entre to Microsoft which one of my big Entre to Microsoft which one of my big Entre to Microsoft which eventually they said why don't you just eventually they said why don't you just eventually they said why don't you just work here and so they why you just work work here and so they why you just work work here and so they why you just work here bring your midlet with you bring here bring your midlet with you bring here bring your midlet with you bring the midlets exactly that's how I got to the midlets exactly that's how I got to the midlets exactly that's how I got to Microsoft in the early 2000s was through Microsoft in the early 2000s was through Microsoft in the early 2000s was through that jvm thing that's pretty cool that's that jvm thing that's pretty cool that's that jvm thing that's pretty cool that's cool I remember writing an article or cool I remember writing an article or cool I remember writing an article or all right all right all right so doing pocket PC stuff I remember been so doing pocket PC stuff I remember been so doing pocket PC stuff I remember been working early days with some uh oil and working early days with some uh oil and working early days with some uh oil and gas companies you know you saw the gas companies you know you saw the gas companies you know you saw the ruggedized devices right pocket PC uh ruggedized devices right pocket PC uh ruggedized devices right pocket PC uh barcode scanning all that kind of stuff barcode scanning all that kind of stuff barcode scanning all that kind of stuff and um I remember work doing a project and um I remember work doing a project and um I remember work doing a project for a company in Texas and we're using for a company in Texas and we're using for a company in Texas and we're using the first version of net compact the first version of net compact the first version of net compact framework uh which was mostly working framework uh which was mostly working framework uh which was mostly working fine but as a an alternate deal you know fine but as a an alternate deal you know fine but as a an alternate deal you know just to see if it would be better there just to see if it would be better there just to see if it would be better there was another version of java that you're was another version of java that you're was another version of java that you're probably familiar with it was not as probably familiar with it was not as probably familiar with it was not as small as J2 me it was called personal small as J2 me it was called personal small as J2 me it was called personal Java like you know there's this notion Java like you know there's this notion Java like you know there's this notion of profiles or something in Java yes of profiles or something in Java yes of profiles or something in Java yes Java profiles yeah Java little Java Java profiles yeah Java little Java Java profiles yeah Java little Java so anyway there's this thing called so anyway there's this thing called so anyway there's this thing called personal Java that literally and maybe personal Java that literally and maybe personal Java that literally and maybe your it's all your fault for all I know your it's all your fault for all I know your it's all your fault for all I know that would run on the pocket PC

that would run on the pocket PC that would run on the pocket PC basically C and ultimately ran on Windows mobile C and ultimately ran on Windows mobile and so we and using uh remember the and so we and using uh remember the and so we and using uh remember the early winding stuff for Java was coming early winding stuff for Java was coming early winding stuff for Java was coming called awt before swing came out and all called awt before swing came out and all called awt before swing came out and all that and uh we built this whole Java that and uh we built this whole Java that and uh we built this whole Java thing running on rugged pocket PCS thing running on rugged pocket PCS thing running on rugged pocket PCS barcode scanning and stuff like that barcode scanning and stuff like that barcode scanning and stuff like that cool it's like wow who knew yeah it was cool it's like wow who knew yeah it was cool it's like wow who knew yeah it was pretty cool that was pretty cool yeah so pretty cool that was pretty cool yeah so pretty cool that was pretty cool yeah so what's the equivalent today of right what's the equivalent today of right what's the equivalent today of right once run anywhere in the in the iot edge once run anywhere in the in the iot edge once run anywhere in the in the iot edge world I mean I guess there's in the mpu world I mean I guess there's in the mpu world I mean I guess there's in the mpu space you've got things like k8s and k3s space you've got things like k8s and k3s space you've got things like k8s and k3s that are sort of like containers and that are sort of like containers and that are sort of like containers and then there's like wasm you know WM is then there's like wasm you know WM is then there's like wasm you know WM is way out there maybe WM is the next Java way out there maybe WM is the next Java way out there maybe WM is the next Java for no I think tiny Edge devices I don't for no I think tiny Edge devices I don't for no I think tiny Edge devices I don't know yeah do you feel like wm's taken know yeah do you feel like wm's taken know yeah do you feel like wm's taken off or caught on I'm hearing a more off or caught on I'm hearing a more off or caught on I'm hearing a more about implementation L people are about implementation L people are about implementation L people are betting on it more yeah um so it's betting on it more yeah um so it's betting on it more yeah um so it's getting a little more mainstream I think getting a little more mainstream I think getting a little more mainstream I think everyone's trying to do now that everyone's trying to do now that everyone's trying to do now that everyone has cloud-based Solutions everyone has cloud-based Solutions everyone has cloud-based Solutions they're trying to do Cloud devops that they're trying to do Cloud devops that they're trying to do Cloud devops that extends all the way out to the farthest extends all the way out to the farthest extends all the way out to the farthest edges of their deployment and so they'd edges of their deployment and so they'd edges of their deployment and so they'd like to use cloud devops orchestration like to use cloud devops orchestration like to use cloud devops orchestration tools on everything and you know as you tools on everything and you know as you tools on everything and you know as you know once you get below you know I don't know once you get below you know I don't know once you get below you know I don't know 8 gig of RAM or whatever you can't know 8 gig of RAM or whatever you can't know 8 gig of RAM or whatever you can't really have a K8 or anything on there so really have a K8 or anything on there so really have a K8 or anything on there so no now you're like like okay k3s and all no now you're like like okay k3s and all no now you're like like okay k3s and all kinds of other funky yeah out there and kinds of other funky yeah out there and kinds of other funky yeah out there and so they're I think people are looking at so they're I think people are looking at so they're I think people are looking at wasm as potentially a way to scale Cloud

wasm as potentially a way to scale Cloud wasm as potentially a way to scale Cloud devops all the way down to there's also devops all the way down to there's also devops all the way down to there's also something called acri too which is okay something called acri too which is okay something called acri too which is okay another kubernetes resource initiative another kubernetes resource initiative another kubernetes resource initiative which is like how do you take kubernetes which is like how do you take kubernetes which is like how do you take kubernetes based management of workloads out to based management of workloads out to based management of workloads out to like little leaf devices little yeah I like little leaf devices little yeah I like little leaf devices little yeah I mean that that kind of bit us a little mean that that kind of bit us a little mean that that kind of bit us a little bit the first version of lumata Hitachi bit the first version of lumata Hitachi bit the first version of lumata Hitachi was written in Java and we were using was written in Java and we were using was written in Java and we were using containers before anybody else Gartner containers before anybody else Gartner containers before anybody else Gartner told us that they were so impressed um told us that they were so impressed um told us that they were so impressed um and so Docker containers now kubernetes and so Docker containers now kubernetes and so Docker containers now kubernetes was not yet a big thing at that time was not yet a big thing at that time was not yet a big thing at that time this is this is this is 2016 um there was Docker storm or 2016 um there was Docker storm or 2016 um there was Docker storm or there's a few other players that could there's a few other players that could there's a few other players that could do orchestrate your Docker containers do orchestrate your Docker containers do orchestrate your Docker containers for you and so we did that um but to for you and so we did that um but to for you and so we did that um but to your point we learned a your point we learned a your point we learned a lesson you are stressing server lesson you are stressing server lesson you are stressing server Cloud servers any kind of you're Cloud servers any kind of you're Cloud servers any kind of you're stressing it more by using these stressing it more by using these stressing it more by using these containers and containers and containers and orchestration using more resources yeah orchestration using more resources yeah orchestration using more resources yeah and then we double stressed him by and then we double stressed him by and then we double stressed him by putting Java inside a container oh Java putting Java inside a container oh Java putting Java inside a container oh Java had yet to be optimized the J so jvm had yet to be optimized the J so jvm had yet to be optimized the J so jvm inside each container it was like one of inside each container it was like one of inside each container it was like one of those Russian doll things yes it was but those Russian doll things yes it was but those Russian doll things yes it was but a really big fat one the Russian doll a really big fat one the Russian doll a really big fat one the Russian doll architecture so that's a tough one the architecture so that's a tough one the architecture so that's a tough one the Russian doll architecture this is Vlad Russian doll architecture this is Vlad Russian doll architecture this is Vlad today I'm going to talk to you yeah and today I'm going to talk to you yeah and today I'm going to talk to you yeah and um and so yeah it was it it so we had to um and so yeah it was it it so we had to um and so yeah it was it it so we had to use larger VMS you know in AWS because

use larger VMS you know in AWS because use larger VMS you know in AWS because of the stress that containers and Java of the stress that containers and Java of the stress that containers and Java and all that put on there well that is and all that put on there well that is and all that put on there well that is the Paradox that is the inherent Paradox the Paradox that is the inherent Paradox the Paradox that is the inherent Paradox of portability the portability tax right of portability the portability tax right of portability the portability tax right you're using more system resources to you're using more system resources to you're using more system resources to get more portability there's like some get more portability there's like some get more portability there's like some kind of law there should name it after kind of law there should name it after kind of law there should name it after somebody but um there's a portability somebody but um there's a portability somebody but um there's a portability law that says you you and then so that law that says you you and then so that law that says you you and then so that the problem is when you get out to Edge the problem is when you get out to Edge the problem is when you get out to Edge Computing and lower cost lower power Computing and lower cost lower power Computing and lower cost lower power devices right which is kind of what's devices right which is kind of what's devices right which is kind of what's the big value prop for Edge yeah you the big value prop for Edge yeah you the big value prop for Edge yeah you know then you're saying oh well I want know then you're saying oh well I want know then you're saying oh well I want portable code on that it's like yesh you portable code on that it's like yesh you portable code on that it's like yesh you know that's where you sort of run into a know that's where you sort of run into a know that's where you sort of run into a brick wall on things it is like a brick brick wall on things it is like a brick brick wall on things it is like a brick wall hey Mark hey hey how are you doing wall hey Mark hey hey how are you doing wall hey Mark hey hey how are you doing Mark can save us from this very esoteric Mark can save us from this very esoteric Mark can save us from this very esoteric conversation about but no he containers conversation about but no he containers conversation about but no he containers we're we're talking about programming we're we're talking about programming we're we're talking about programming languages and virtualization and we languages and virtualization and we languages and virtualization and we talked about the history of java talked about the history of java talked about the history of java actually we've been talking about Java actually we've been talking about Java actually we've been talking about Java and Sun Microsystems and that whole and Sun Microsystems and that whole and Sun Microsystems and that whole journey my Java guy oh journey my Java guy oh journey my Java guy oh W absolutely yeah oh my gosh yeah yeah I W absolutely yeah oh my gosh yeah yeah I W absolutely yeah oh my gosh yeah yeah I think it was an interesting uh no moment think it was an interesting uh no moment think it was an interesting uh no moment of the of the history right the Java of the of the history right the Java of the of the history right the Java brital machine um invention it was like brital machine um invention it was like brital machine um invention it was like the it was super interesting and then the it was super interesting and then the it was super interesting and then actually it open as well all the wall to actually it open as well all the wall to actually it open as well all the wall to mobile development when Android uh just mobile development when Android uh just mobile development when Android uh just appears with a d big machine which was appears with a d big machine which was appears with a d big machine which was like a Java virtual machine for mobile like a Java virtual machine for mobile like a Java virtual machine for mobile phone so all of the Java developers phone so all of the Java developers phone so all of the Java developers could just rain band themselves and could just rain band themselves and could just rain band themselves and start doing mobile applications and get start doing mobile applications and get start doing mobile applications and get reach on yeah Android developers Android

reach on yeah Android developers Android reach on yeah Android developers Android yeah yeah sounds much cooler than Java yeah yeah sounds much cooler than Java yeah yeah sounds much cooler than Java developer and you know what Mark I developer and you know what Mark I developer and you know what Mark I remember I remember you know so there remember I remember you know so there remember I remember you know so there was the I'd say the hype and excitement was the I'd say the hype and excitement was the I'd say the hype and excitement of java in the second half of the 90s of java in the second half of the 90s of java in the second half of the 90s and every week they were adding new and every week they were adding new and every week they were adding new capabilities I remember going to Java 1 capabilities I remember going to Java 1 capabilities I remember going to Java 1 and it this seem silly to people but and it this seem silly to people but and it this seem silly to people but they would announce things like and now they would announce things like and now they would announce things like and now Java supports Java supports Java supports printing now Java supports whatever it's printing now Java supports whatever it's printing now Java supports whatever it's amazing you know and then they came out amazing you know and then they came out amazing you know and then they came out that Java Swing that Java Swing that Java Swing graphical to build Rich user graphical to build Rich user graphical to build Rich user interfaces sure there are still interfaces sure there are still interfaces sure there are still companies companies companies using those old uh yeah yeah and you using those old uh yeah yeah and you using those old uh yeah yeah and you could change the theme remember there could change the theme remember there could change the theme remember there was like the you could use the the Unix was like the you could use the the Unix was like the you could use the the Unix like the open look UI like you would like the open look UI like you would like the open look UI like you would have on a sun have on a sun have on a sun workstation or there was the metal theme workstation or there was the metal theme workstation or there was the metal theme all the and then they'd have the theme all the and then they'd have the theme all the and then they'd have the theme that look like Windows that look like Windows that look like Windows XP like that um but yeah but you're XP like that um but yeah but you're XP like that um but yeah but you're right there um I felt like Java started right there um I felt like Java started right there um I felt like Java started to run out of gas in the early 2000s to run out of gas in the early 2000s to run out of gas in the early 2000s especially because Sun Micro Systems especially because Sun Micro Systems especially because Sun Micro Systems started to struggle they did very well started to struggle they did very well started to struggle they did very well during the dotcom times because Venture during the dotcom times because Venture during the dotcom times because Venture capitalists were saying here's your capitalists were saying here's your capitalists were saying here's your millions of dollars and I want you to go millions of dollars and I want you to go millions of dollars and I want you to go bu Sun servers because that's the only bu Sun servers because that's the only bu Sun servers because that's the only way you can do this new internet thing way you can do this new internet thing way you can do this new internet thing uh and people were paying a fortune for uh and people were paying a fortune for uh and people were paying a fortune for sun servers uh and then the realization sun servers uh and then the realization sun servers uh and then the realization hit that oh cheap Linux servers were

hit that oh cheap Linux servers were hit that oh cheap Linux servers were just as good oops I remember I was just as good oops I remember I was just as good oops I remember I was developing uh on the web on ASP BP and developing uh on the web on ASP BP and developing uh on the web on ASP BP and then there was this JSP yes JSP you then there was this JSP yes JSP you then there was this JSP yes JSP you could program websites Dynamic websites could program websites Dynamic websites could program websites Dynamic websites on on Java as well yeah you're right but on on Java as well yeah you're right but on on Java as well yeah you're right but yeah you needed to Too Much resources yeah you needed to Too Much resources yeah you needed to Too Much resources right and that was yeah I was as well right and that was yeah I was as well right and that was yeah I was as well scared when I was starting to read Java scared when I was starting to read Java scared when I was starting to read Java for iot yes like no please uh I yeah for iot yes like no please uh I yeah for iot yes like no please uh I yeah what we're talking about is the the what we're talking about is the the what we're talking about is the the Paradox of resources and Paradox of resources and Paradox of resources and portability and if you had to have a iot portability and if you had to have a iot portability and if you had to have a iot device that was running on a battery you device that was running on a battery you device that was running on a battery you probably would not choose probably would not choose probably would not choose Java um to develop for you could you Java um to develop for you could you Java um to develop for you could you could too much resources being used yeah could too much resources being used yeah could too much resources being used yeah that's why Everyone likes to do bare that's why Everyone likes to do bare that's why Everyone likes to do bare metal if they can yeah they can get away metal if they can yeah they can get away metal if they can yeah they can get away with it because it's always the most uh with it because it's always the most uh with it because it's always the most uh performant you know way of doing things performant you know way of doing things performant you know way of doing things it's also the least portable so again it's also the least portable so again it's also the least portable so again there's that Paradox of and yet but there's that Paradox of and yet but there's that Paradox of and yet but that's fine you find I think it's today that's fine you find I think it's today that's fine you find I think it's today you find your Niche right and you focus you find your Niche right and you focus you find your Niche right and you focus on who are your ideal customers right on who are your ideal customers right on who are your ideal customers right and right why do you need to go to know and right why do you need to go to know and right why do you need to go to know embed devices if your ideal embed devices if your ideal embed devices if your ideal customers are running on metal or a customers are running on metal or a customers are running on metal or a specific yeah you know the ironic thing specific yeah you know the ironic thing specific yeah you know the ironic thing is C is a portable language and that is is C is a portable language and that is is C is a portable language and that is how you would build crossplatform how you would build crossplatform how you would build crossplatform stuff um obviously there's Frameworks stuff um obviously there's Frameworks stuff um obviously there's Frameworks and libraries for a particular platform

and libraries for a particular platform and libraries for a particular platform you have to use with yeah but uh but you have to use with yeah but uh but you have to use with yeah but uh but yeah it's interesting how that would yeah it's interesting how that would yeah it's interesting how that would play out um and it's play out um and it's play out um and it's Bill what's up we are talking about Bill what's up we are talking about Bill what's up we are talking about programming languages and Java and Java programming languages and Java and Java programming languages and Java and Java virtual machines and the history of sun virtual machines and the history of sun virtual machines and the history of sun Microsystems and all that Microsystems and all that Microsystems and all that stuff that I stuff that I stuff that I mean did you throw net in there as well mean did you throw net in there as well mean did you throw net in there as well a little bit but I didn't want to steal a little bit but I didn't want to steal a little bit but I didn't want to steal Javas Thunder I was like you know did Javas Thunder I was like you know did Javas Thunder I was like you know did was that ever part of your life bill was that ever part of your life bill was that ever part of your life bill that that that world uh so net or Java Java Java is a world uh so net or Java Java Java is a world uh so net or Java Java Java is a big deal for for us 100% I mean the big deal for for us 100% I mean the big deal for for us 100% I mean the thing about it is that there are very thing about it is that there are very thing about it is that there are very few I mean it's just the world's not few I mean it's just the world's not few I mean it's just the world's not strong on Java developers really right strong on Java developers really right strong on Java developers really right they all became Android developers they all became Android developers they all became Android developers that's what we were saying yeah yeah that's what we were saying yeah yeah that's what we were saying yeah yeah yeah I mean and and so whenever I bring yeah I mean and and so whenever I bring yeah I mean and and so whenever I bring on anyone uh I'm like you've got to have on anyone uh I'm like you've got to have on anyone uh I'm like you've got to have strong Java skills it it's it's strong Java skills it it's it's strong Java skills it it's it's mandatory I mean I need Java and I need mandatory I mean I need Java and I need mandatory I mean I need Java and I need Python and I need I mean those are the Python and I need I mean those are the Python and I need I mean those are the needs that that that I have I mean if needs that that that I have I mean if needs that that that I have I mean if you're looking at modern real modern you're looking at modern real modern you're looking at modern real modern software development it's going to be in software development it's going to be in software development it's going to be in those two languages and that is those two languages and that is those two languages and that is interesting but that's it's valid it's interesting but that's it's valid it's interesting but that's it's valid it's it's your world and so the solutions it's your world and so the solutions it's your world and so the solutions You're Building I would say it depends

You're Building I would say it depends You're Building I would say it depends it depends it well it does but I mean I it depends it well it does but I mean I it depends it well it does but I mean I mean look at look at here here's the mean look at look at here here's the mean look at look at here here's the thing right look at how how people are thing right look at how how people are thing right look at how how people are going after you know uh I mean because a going after you know uh I mean because a going after you know uh I mean because a lot of the stuff that we do I would say lot of the stuff that we do I would say lot of the stuff that we do I would say a large majority of the stuff that we do a large majority of the stuff that we do a large majority of the stuff that we do is is real time right I mean so we're is is real time right I mean so we're is is real time right I mean so we're looking at streaming data and the way looking at streaming data and the way looking at streaming data and the way that people tend to get to streaming that people tend to get to streaming that people tend to get to streaming data you'll hear a lot of of Kafka data you'll hear a lot of of Kafka data you'll hear a lot of of Kafka spark uh you know and and and it's you spark uh you know and and and it's you spark uh you know and and and it's you know I've even had debates with with know I've even had debates with with know I've even had debates with with people over building digital Twins and people over building digital Twins and people over building digital Twins and they're like well I'm going to use they're like well I'm going to use they're like well I'm going to use Orleans okay I know where you're at now Orleans okay I know where you're at now Orleans okay I know where you're at now you're a net developer that is built in you're a net developer that is built in you're a net developer that is built in on the Microsoft platform and the the on the Microsoft platform and the the on the Microsoft platform and the the only way that you know how to get from only way that you know how to get from only way that you know how to get from here to there is to take the Xbox stuff here to there is to take the Xbox stuff here to there is to take the Xbox stuff and turn it into a realtime streaming and turn it into a realtime streaming and turn it into a realtime streaming data platform no not going to work like data platform no not going to work like data platform no not going to work like I said before in several instances that I said before in several instances that I said before in several instances that shit'll never work it will not scale shit'll never work it will not scale shit'll never work it will not scale gaming systems are not industrial iot gaming systems are not industrial iot gaming systems are not industrial iot solutions that rely on realtime solutions that rely on realtime solutions that rely on realtime streaming data stop streaming data stop streaming data stop it there you go give us the Will Smith it there you go give us the Will Smith it there you go give us the Will Smith slap keep my keep my name name name exactly oh my I mean it's just it's a exactly oh my I mean it's just it's a exactly oh my I mean it's just it's a fact though right I mean and and I'm fact though right I mean and and I'm fact though right I mean and and I'm willing to to debate anyone on you know willing to to debate anyone on you know willing to to debate anyone on you know on the applications and what you're

on the applications and what you're on the applications and what you're doing it it's not so much that you can doing it it's not so much that you can doing it it's not so much that you can technically get this stuff to work I technically get this stuff to work I technically get this stuff to work I mean Orleans can do certain things but mean Orleans can do certain things but mean Orleans can do certain things but will it scale to millions of devices will it scale to millions of devices will it scale to millions of devices across multiple networks no it will not across multiple networks no it will not across multiple networks no it will not and the cost to operate is going to kill and the cost to operate is going to kill and the cost to operate is going to kill you so for all you kids out there you so for all you kids out there you so for all you kids out there listening in here Saturday morning listening in here Saturday morning listening in here Saturday morning cartoons orlans was something that came cartoons orlans was something that came cartoons orlans was something that came out of Microsoft research it's an actor out of Microsoft research it's an actor out of Microsoft research it's an actor framework uh it's not it's you would use framework uh it's not it's you would use framework uh it's not it's you would use net with it but it's a actor framework net with it but it's a actor framework net with it but it's a actor framework so there are other actor Frameworks out so there are other actor Frameworks out so there are other actor Frameworks out there and so if you're doing it in Java there and so if you're doing it in Java there and so if you're doing it in Java I'm sure there's an equivalent that I'm sure there's an equivalent that I'm sure there's an equivalent that people would use to do that you don't people would use to do that you don't people would use to do that you don't roll you don't create that from scratch roll you don't create that from scratch roll you don't create that from scratch yourself no no I mean our our stuff and yourself no no I mean our our stuff and yourself no no I mean our our stuff and it's it's out there right I mean our it's it's out there right I mean our it's it's out there right I mean our stuff is web agent based yeah so we're stuff is web agent based yeah so we're stuff is web agent based yeah so we're talking about web sockets left and right talking about web sockets left and right talking about web sockets left and right you know um and and and you can't you know um and and and you can't you know um and and and you can't they're not Apples to Apples they're not Apples to Apples they're not Apples to Apples comparisons right active based model you comparisons right active based model you comparisons right active based model you can scenario them out and say okay well can scenario them out and say okay well can scenario them out and say okay well this is as close as we're going to get this is as close as we're going to get this is as close as we're going to get but the functionality of it and and how but the functionality of it and and how but the functionality of it and and how fast you need your things to work it fast you need your things to work it fast you need your things to work it that's what's going to that's the proof that's what's going to that's the proof that's what's going to that's the proof that's in the that's in the that's in the I mean at the end of the day and but I mean at the end of the day and but I mean at the end of the day and but your your friends over at swim used an your your friends over at swim used an your your friends over at swim used an actor-based model for their actor-based model for their actor-based model for their solution um socket based well solution um socket based well solution um socket based well communication with socket but the notion communication with socket but the notion communication with socket but the notion of all these little lightweight actors of all these little lightweight actors of all these little lightweight actors um as opposed to lots of distributed yes

um as opposed to lots of distributed yes um as opposed to lots of distributed yes distribut the way the the things that distribut the way the the things that distribut the way the the things that we're talking to each other yeah um no I we're talking to each other yeah um no I we're talking to each other yeah um no I thought I thought their architecture was thought I thought their architecture was thought I thought their architecture was pretty interesting pretty interesting pretty interesting actually yeah I remember there's a lot actually yeah I remember there's a lot actually yeah I remember there's a lot of of of I remember first time I met Rob uh like I remember first time I met Rob uh like I remember first time I met Rob uh like I don't know 10 12 years ago you asked I don't know 10 12 years ago you asked I don't know 10 12 years ago you asked me if the things was based on Kafka me if the things was based on Kafka me if the things was based on Kafka because everyone was a state know this because everyone was a state know this because everyone was a state know this the statement of all the startups doing the statement of all the startups doing the statement of all the startups doing iot platforms was yeah this is Kafka iot platforms was yeah this is Kafka iot platforms was yeah this is Kafka with uh mttp it seemed that way at the time a mttp it seemed that way at the time a lot of people were like this goes back lot of people were like this goes back lot of people were like this goes back to Java though the whole Apache to Java though the whole Apache to Java though the whole Apache Foundation was based on Java software if Foundation was based on Java software if Foundation was based on Java software if you go into a aache and look at the you go into a aache and look at the you go into a aache and look at the catalog of software to download for free catalog of software to download for free catalog of software to download for free most of them are all written in Java yep most of them are all written in Java yep most of them are all written in Java yep like almost all of them are they are like almost all of them are they are like almost all of them are they are good or bad whatever it just happened to good or bad whatever it just happened to good or bad whatever it just happened to be that way um and maybe because because be that way um and maybe because because be that way um and maybe because because Apache Foundation started in the height Apache Foundation started in the height Apache Foundation started in the height of late 90s when Java was really hot and of late 90s when Java was really hot and of late 90s when Java was really hot and you had the Apache web server that was you had the Apache web server that was you had the Apache web server that was kind of what started it and you a lot of kind of what started it and you a lot of kind of what started it and you a lot of companies yeah Tom Cat a lot companies companies yeah Tom Cat a lot companies companies yeah Tom Cat a lot companies wanted to save money and they needed a wanted to save money and they needed a wanted to save money and they needed a web application server and so they would web application server and so they would web application server and so they would download Tomcat which was not designed download Tomcat which was not designed download Tomcat which was not designed for production I can't tell you how many for production I can't tell you how many for production I can't tell you how many giant companies used Tomcat in giant companies used Tomcat in giant companies used Tomcat in production and it was because it was production and it was because it was production and it was because it was free and they could do Java servlets or free and they could do Java servlets or free and they could do Java servlets or JSP or something like that back then um

JSP or something like that back then um JSP or something like that back then um yeah I don't want to how many yeah I don't want to how many yeah I don't want to how many Technologies are on production that are Technologies are on production that are Technologies are on production that are not designed to be on not designed to be on not designed to be on production a lot a lot of them a lot of production a lot a lot of them a lot of production a lot a lot of them a lot of probably that there is a big disclaimer probably that there is a big disclaimer probably that there is a big disclaimer right on the on the on the website where right on the on the on the website where right on the on the on the website where you download it or on the GitHub you download it or on the GitHub you download it or on the GitHub repository or in fact do you remember in repository or in fact do you remember in repository or in fact do you remember in the early days of java the little read the early days of java the little read the early days of java the little read me text that comes with it you know the me text that comes with it you know the me text that comes with it you know the Ula it was it would State Java is not Ula it was it would State Java is not Ula it was it would State Java is not meant to be used in Mission critical meant to be used in Mission critical meant to be used in Mission critical systems nuclear reactors any control systems nuclear reactors any control systems nuclear reactors any control systems I remember that it was like systems I remember that it was like systems I remember that it was like there you know covering our ass by there you know covering our ass by there you know covering our ass by saying don't use Java for any of this saying don't use Java for any of this saying don't use Java for any of this important stuff I don't know if they important stuff I don't know if they important stuff I don't know if they still do that anymore but but in the still do that anymore but but in the still do that anymore but but in the early days they did cuz yeah they didn't early days they did cuz yeah they didn't early days they did cuz yeah they didn't know if it would handle the load or know if it would handle the load or know if it would handle the load or whatever um yeah it's interesting stuff whatever um yeah it's interesting stuff whatever um yeah it's interesting stuff um wow digital Twins and Java Java beans um wow digital Twins and Java Java beans um wow digital Twins and Java Java beans there you go oh my there you go oh my there you go oh my god when that came out oh my gosh that I god when that came out oh my gosh that I god when that came out oh my gosh that I mean it's a it's a real thing look at I mean it's a it's a real thing look at I mean it's a it's a real thing look at I mean there are literal companies built mean there are literal companies built mean there are literal companies built around the ability to stream data and around the ability to stream data and around the ability to stream data and and derive insights but it there's you and derive insights but it there's you and derive insights but it there's you know the conversation is is much more know the conversation is is much more know the conversation is is much more and it's much deeper than all of that and it's much deeper than all of that and it's much deeper than all of that right I mean it's it's still you have to right I mean it's it's still you have to right I mean it's it's still you have to be concerned about the quality of your be concerned about the quality of your be concerned about the quality of your data you still have to be concerned data you still have to be concerned data you still have to be concerned about about about contextualization but how are how are contextualization but how are how are contextualization but how are how are you doing this you know in terms of uh

you doing this you know in terms of uh you doing this you know in terms of uh these applications and your endpoints or these applications and your endpoints or these applications and your endpoints or your your uh distributed nodes that are your your uh distributed nodes that are your your uh distributed nodes that are wanting to trade in information with wanting to trade in information with wanting to trade in information with each other as fast as each other as fast as each other as fast as possible and and now we get into the possible and and now we get into the possible and and now we get into the notion of of uh the machine learning notion of of uh the machine learning notion of of uh the machine learning aspect of it and and your sto and your aspect of it and and your sto and your aspect of it and and your sto and your storage and compute at the edge and your storage and compute at the edge and your storage and compute at the edge and your building of a Knowledge Graph and what building of a Knowledge Graph and what building of a Knowledge Graph and what that Knowledge Graph is actually doing that Knowledge Graph is actually doing that Knowledge Graph is actually doing and your visualization across all of and your visualization across all of and your visualization across all of that and how Snappy that visualization that and how Snappy that visualization that and how Snappy that visualization is which gets us into the conversation is which gets us into the conversation is which gets us into the conversation of how are you building your UI is it of how are you building your UI is it of how are you building your UI is it react is it is it something other than react is it is it something other than react is it is it something other than that I mean there's there's there's so that I mean there's there's there's so that I mean there's there's there's so much that goes into it and I think much that goes into it and I think much that goes into it and I think people oversimplify the the actual uh people oversimplify the the actual uh people oversimplify the the actual uh development of it and the end result development of it and the end result development of it and the end result yeah I think you're right wow you know yeah I think you're right wow you know yeah I think you're right wow you know what's funny is Mark's talking about what's funny is Mark's talking about what's funny is Mark's talking about many many years ago when we first met many many years ago when we first met many many years ago when we first met talking about yeah we using cof or you talking about yeah we using cof or you talking about yeah we using cof or you know because a lot of people were but know because a lot of people were but know because a lot of people were but today I still read stuff today that today I still read stuff today that today I still read stuff today that that's what people do when they want to that's what people do when they want to that's what people do when they want to build some streaming analytics they're build some streaming analytics they're build some streaming analytics they're they're grabbing they're grabbing they're grabbing kofka or they're grabbing spark they're kofka or they're grabbing spark they're kofka or they're grabbing spark they're grabbing Flink the you know yeah um and grabbing Flink the you know yeah um and grabbing Flink the you know yeah um and so I still hear that so I still hear that so I still hear that today just and people have made today just and people have made today just and people have made significant Capital Investments uh you significant Capital Investments uh you significant Capital Investments uh you know on their back ends for all of that know on their back ends for all of that know on their back ends for all of that yeah and and I'm like you know well at yeah and and I'm like you know well at yeah and and I'm like you know well at the end of the day if that's what you the end of the day if that's what you the end of the day if that's what you want to use I'm like I don't I don't

want to use I'm like I don't I don't want to use I'm like I don't I don't really care right I mean we can build really care right I mean we can build really care right I mean we can build plugins for just about anything have I plugins for just about anything have I plugins for just about anything have I mean and you can still use the mean and you can still use the mean and you can still use the underlying frame underlying frame underlying frame work and and and just subscribe to work and and and just subscribe to work and and and just subscribe to topics if that's what you want to do um topics if that's what you want to do um topics if that's what you want to do um but just know that all of that stuff but just know that all of that stuff but just know that all of that stuff comes at a comes at a comes at a cost subscribing to topics that sounds a cost subscribing to topics that sounds a cost subscribing to topics that sounds a lot like mqtt to me dude it it does now lot like mqtt to me dude it it does now lot like mqtt to me dude it it does now that's a whole another conversation that's a whole another conversation that's a whole another conversation right when we're talking about messaging right when we're talking about messaging right when we're talking about messaging and Brokers and all of that that kind of and Brokers and all of that that kind of and Brokers and all of that that kind of stuff which like I said you know it does stuff which like I said you know it does stuff which like I said you know it does become a bit complex when you start become a bit complex when you start become a bit complex when you start looking at the Flight of the packets and looking at the Flight of the packets and looking at the Flight of the packets and what you're trying to do while it's in what you're trying to do while it's in what you're trying to do while it's in Flight yeah you know and and and I I Flight yeah you know and and and I I Flight yeah you know and and and I I just don't think that many people really just don't think that many people really just don't think that many people really want to sit down and have that want to sit down and have that want to sit down and have that conversation because what is it again conversation because what is it again conversation because what is it again people mistake invention for Innovation people mistake invention for Innovation people mistake invention for Innovation and vice versa all the time you're right and vice versa all the time you're right and vice versa all the time you're right you're right so you said you want Java you're right so you said you want Java you're right so you said you want Java developers and you want python I'm developers and you want python I'm developers and you want python I'm assuming when you say python it's to assuming when you say python it's to assuming when you say python it's to help you with machine learning because help you with machine learning because help you with machine learning because of all the great libraries that it has of all the great libraries that it has of all the great libraries that it has yeah what was always the the always yeah what was always the the always yeah what was always the the always would confound me though is that python would confound me though is that python would confound me though is that python is one of the slowest performing is one of the slowest performing is one of the slowest performing programming languages on the planet and programming languages on the planet and programming languages on the planet and so you're You're Building all the rest so you're You're Building all the rest so you're You're Building all the rest of your system using the fastest of your system using the fastest of your system using the fastest highspeed whatever and then here's highspeed whatever and then here's highspeed whatever and then here's python which slow down your whole but python which slow down your whole but python which slow down your whole but that's the thing you don't want to trust that's the thing you don't want to trust that's the thing you don't want to trust python for your first order

python for your first order python for your first order problems great that it's got all these problems great that it's got all these problems great that it's got all these cool libraries in it for Math and all cool libraries in it for Math and all cool libraries in it for Math and all that fun stuff but it's it's just not that fun stuff but it's it's just not that fun stuff but it's it's just not fast that's why they're working on it I fast that's why they're working on it I fast that's why they're working on it I know they're working uh and I know know they're working uh and I know know they're working uh and I know there's a competitor called Julia which there's a competitor called Julia which there's a competitor called Julia which looks just like python except it's looks just like python except it's looks just like python except it's really fast like close to C which is really fast like close to C which is really fast like close to C which is interesting people are always creating interesting people are always creating interesting people are always creating new programming languages do we notice new programming languages do we notice new programming languages do we notice that like there's people just sitting that like there's people just sitting that like there's people just sitting around there's always a better way yes around there's always a better way yes around there's always a better way yes yes and and Bill you mentioned about net yes and and Bill you mentioned about net yes and and Bill you mentioned about net because it was a a movement from because it was a a movement from because it was a a movement from Microsoft to copy Java um concept into Microsoft to copy Java um concept into Microsoft to copy Java um concept into Microsoft Microsoft Microsoft yeah well it was we were talking about yeah well it was we were talking about yeah well it was we were talking about that whole j++ thing and that whole big that whole j++ thing and that whole big that whole j++ thing and that whole big mess and yeah yeah Natural Evolution I mess and yeah yeah Natural Evolution I mess and yeah yeah Natural Evolution I mean again it it's those are there are mean again it it's those are there are mean again it it's those are there are simple things that I I really try to simple things that I I really try to simple things that I I really try to keep it simple I really do and my whole keep it simple I really do and my whole keep it simple I really do and my whole goal in terms of the stuff that we're goal in terms of the stuff that we're goal in terms of the stuff that we're doing is to reduce friction so let's not doing is to reduce friction so let's not doing is to reduce friction so let's not add things just add things just add things just because right right let's let's not lose because right right let's let's not lose because right right let's let's not lose sight of what problem we're trying to sight of what problem we're trying to sight of what problem we're trying to solve let's not lose sight of those solve let's not lose sight of those solve let's not lose sight of those things when you do those things things when you do those things things when you do those things Innovation takes place yeah it just Innovation takes place yeah it just Innovation takes place yeah it just happens because you're using the tools happens because you're using the tools happens because you're using the tools that were meant to be used in the place that were meant to be used in the place that were meant to be used in the place that they're meant to be used at as that they're meant to be used at as that they're meant to be used at as opposed to trying to stretch them and opposed to trying to stretch them and opposed to trying to stretch them and say well we can kind of do it with this say well we can kind of do it with this say well we can kind of do it with this and we can kind of do it with and we can kind of do it with and we can kind of do it with that look if that's that was always an that look if that's that was always an that look if that's that was always an annoying thing to me like if you're a

annoying thing to me like if you're a annoying thing to me like if you're a professional developer and maybe you're professional developer and maybe you're professional developer and maybe you're a contract developer and you're going to a contract developer and you're going to a contract developer and you're going to go work for a customer and the customer go work for a customer and the customer go work for a customer and the customer says oh you have to build it using these says oh you have to build it using these says oh you have to build it using these languages and whatever and they would languages and whatever and they would languages and whatever and they would already put you into a box you know it's already put you into a box you know it's already put you into a box you know it's like how about if I figure out your like how about if I figure out your like how about if I figure out your requirements and what does what makes requirements and what does what makes requirements and what does what makes sense but so often companies are like sense but so often companies are like sense but so often companies are like nope this is how you're going to do it nope this is how you're going to do it nope this is how you're going to do it you know yeah you're gonna use power you know yeah you're gonna use power you know yeah you're gonna use power Builder you're gonna Builder you're gonna Builder you're gonna use you know you want to throw another use you know you want to throw another use you know you want to throw another thing into the mix go let's talk about thing into the mix go let's talk about thing into the mix go let's talk about let's talk about Legacy applications and let's talk about Legacy applications and let's talk about Legacy applications and k8s I mean and I mean you look people will say I and I mean you look people will say I don't care about the propaganda and all don't care about the propaganda and all don't care about the propaganda and all of that stuff if you're going to build of that stuff if you're going to build of that stuff if you're going to build natively and you build using that natively and you build using that natively and you build using that framework we're going to do it you know framework we're going to do it you know framework we're going to do it you know containerized I mean we're going containerized I mean we're going containerized I mean we're going kubernetes great you can you can build kubernetes great you can you can build kubernetes great you can you can build it that way but I think people have just it that way but I think people have just it that way but I think people have just gotten over enamored with the notion of gotten over enamored with the notion of gotten over enamored with the notion of microservices they've gotten over microservices they've gotten over microservices they've gotten over enamored with the with K and enamored with the with K and enamored with the with K and containerized and we can move from here containerized and we can move from here containerized and we can move from here to there look uh AKs verus versus eks to there look uh AKs verus versus eks to there look uh AKs verus versus eks versus any other versus any other versus any other KS uh it it's going to cause KS uh it it's going to cause KS uh it it's going to cause proliferation As you move Cloud to Cloud proliferation As you move Cloud to Cloud proliferation As you move Cloud to Cloud pick your horse and ride it that's it pick your horse and ride it that's it pick your horse and ride it that's it pick your horse and ride it quote pick your horse and ride it quote pick your horse and ride it quote unquote I love unquote I love unquote I love that is awesome pick your horse and ride

that is awesome pick your horse and ride that is awesome pick your horse and ride it off into the sunset I love that you it off into the sunset I love that you it off into the sunset I love that you know I mean know I mean know I mean let's let's stop with this other stuff let's let's stop with this other stuff let's let's stop with this other stuff and if you really I mean if you really and if you really I mean if you really and if you really I mean if you really want to take the time I again there's want to take the time I again there's want to take the time I again there's three qu there's three points right it's three qu there's three points right it's three qu there's three points right it's time to Market time to cash time to Market time to cash time to Market time to cash right do you want speed velocity I mean right do you want speed velocity I mean right do you want speed velocity I mean there's just those those questions what there's just those those questions what there's just those those questions what are you trying to do and what problem are you trying to do and what problem are you trying to do and what problem are you trying to solve tie those things are you trying to solve tie those things are you trying to solve tie those things together and go get it yeah and we can together and go get it yeah and we can together and go get it yeah and we can we can dispense with this you know I I we can dispense with this you know I I we can dispense with this you know I I need to I need to invent need to I need to invent need to I need to invent something go right going you invented something go right going you invented something go right going you invented that let me show you how to innovate on that let me show you how to innovate on that let me show you how to innovate on it right right so as we wrap it right right so as we wrap it right right so as we wrap up how about 30 seconds or one up how about 30 seconds or one up how about 30 seconds or one minute takeaway what's the biggest thing minute takeaway what's the biggest thing minute takeaway what's the biggest thing that just happened over the that just happened over the that just happened over the weekend anyone oh anyone K Harris no not weekend anyone oh anyone K Harris no not weekend anyone oh anyone K Harris no not in Tech in Tech in Tech the new llama in Tech in Tech in Tech the new llama in Tech in Tech in Tech the new llama models the new llama models came out models the new llama models came out models the new llama models came out crowd strike M oh crowd strike oh took crowd strike M oh crowd strike oh took crowd strike M oh crowd strike oh took down the whole that's a whole other show down the whole that's a whole other show down the whole that's a whole other show that's a whole other discussion whole that's a whole other discussion whole that's a whole other discussion whole show you know that's an s bomb show you know that's an s bomb show you know that's an s bomb conversation we'll save that for the conversation we'll save that for the conversation we'll save that for the next show because we could talk all day next show because we could talk all day next show because we could talk all day about that I was gonna say f bomb not s about that I was gonna say f bomb not s about that I was gonna say f bomb not s bomb yeah that too it's definitely an F bomb yeah that too it's definitely an F bomb yeah that too it's definitely an F bomb maybe that's the next topic is what bomb maybe that's the next topic is what bomb maybe that's the next topic is what what the hell happened there there's an what the hell happened there there's an what the hell happened there there's an interesting history I think I posted a interesting history I think I posted a interesting history I think I posted a little bit on it so when I was in little bit on it so when I was in little bit on it so when I was in Windows um and there was a lot of Windows um and there was a lot of Windows um and there was a lot of discussion around Norton and McAfee and

discussion around Norton and McAfee and discussion around Norton and McAfee and you know the issue around crowd strike you know the issue around crowd strike you know the issue around crowd strike just goes back to this kernel access just goes back to this kernel access just goes back to this kernel access that Microsoft's always provided and the that Microsoft's always provided and the that Microsoft's always provided and the reason they've really provided it reason they've really provided it reason they've really provided it frankly is economic is because the pcem frankly is economic is because the pcem frankly is economic is because the pcem wanted to bundle McAfee and Norton to wanted to bundle McAfee and Norton to wanted to bundle McAfee and Norton to get the revenues on their kind of lower get the revenues on their kind of lower get the revenues on their kind of lower margin uh PC business and so they told margin uh PC business and so they told margin uh PC business and so they told Microsoft you need to provide hooks for Microsoft you need to provide hooks for Microsoft you need to provide hooks for them to be able to do this so we could them to be able to do this so we could them to be able to do this so we could monetize it so we could pay you for monetize it so we could pay you for monetize it so we could pay you for Windows basically and so that's kind of Windows basically and so that's kind of Windows basically and so that's kind of why those hooks were always left open why those hooks were always left open why those hooks were always left open and then Microsoft came up with their and then Microsoft came up with their and then Microsoft came up with their own solution and and there was a kind of own solution and and there was a kind of own solution and and there was a kind of a doj thing whatever but yes that's just a doj thing whatever but yes that's just a doj thing whatever but yes that's just that's a good example of where a that's a good example of where a that's a good example of where a business model and a kind of an business model and a kind of an business model and a kind of an ecosystem can kind of go in and mess ecosystem can kind of go in and mess ecosystem can kind of go in and mess with kind of good engineering principles with kind of good engineering principles with kind of good engineering principles and um right you know feel bad Delta and um right you know feel bad Delta and um right you know feel bad Delta flight Vegas takeaway do not set your flight Vegas takeaway do not set your flight Vegas takeaway do not set your Microsoft to auto Microsoft to auto Microsoft to auto update well that's don't don't do update well that's don't don't do update well that's don't don't do that but update it regularly that but update it regularly that but update it regularly because it just goes it just yeah yeah because it just goes it just yeah yeah because it just goes it just yeah yeah remember that scene from space force I remember that scene from space force I remember that scene from space force I don't know if you ever watched that show don't know if you ever watched that show don't know if you ever watched that show I watch a little bit of the first I watch a little bit of the first I watch a little bit of the first episode there's one episode where episode there's one episode where episode there's one episode where there's this critical moment where they there's this critical moment where they there's this critical moment where they have to get the guy from the moon or have to get the guy from the moon or have to get the guy from the moon or whatever in the space station and then whatever in the space station and then whatever in the space station and then in the in the control room all of a in the in the control room all of a in the in the control room all of a sudden it says like Windows sudden it says like Windows sudden it says like Windows update the guy's update the guy's update the guy's like oh my gosh wow anyway yeah tough like oh my gosh wow anyway yeah tough like oh my gosh wow anyway yeah tough one yeah that's a whole other discussion

one yeah that's a whole other discussion one yeah that's a whole other discussion that's all discussion we'll talk about that's all discussion we'll talk about that's all discussion we'll talk about that next week we could you're right we that next week we could you're right we that next week we could you're right we could go deep on that so thanks everyone could go deep on that so thanks everyone could go deep on that so thanks everyone for joining us today on iot coffee talk for joining us today on iot coffee talk for joining us today on iot coffee talk we talked a lot about programming we talked a lot about programming we talked a lot about programming languages the history of java Sun languages the history of java Sun languages the history of java Sun Microsystems Andrew hburg bill came up Microsystems Andrew hburg bill came up Microsystems Andrew hburg bill came up and blue up.net which is great good for and blue up.net which is great good for and blue up.net which is great good for him you know Mark's smarter than all of him you know Mark's smarter than all of him you know Mark's smarter than all of us luckily that's why he's in Barcelona us luckily that's why he's in Barcelona us luckily that's why he's in Barcelona and we're not there's Duke we all and we're not there's Duke we all and we're not there's Duke we all remember Duke from we got at Java one remember Duke from we got at Java one remember Duke from we got at Java one that was good stuff the reason you're that was good stuff the reason you're that was good stuff the reason you're here though is because we're smarter here though is because we're smarter here though is because we're smarter than everyone else and we talk about than everyone else and we talk about than everyone else and we talk about important things that's going to change important things that's going to change important things that's going to change your life for the better and and we your life for the better and and we your life for the better and and we support Elevate our kids so make sure support Elevate our kids so make sure support Elevate our kids so make sure and donate you know we're going to get and donate you know we're going to get and donate you know we're going to get some laptops get some internet some laptops get some internet some laptops get some internet connectivity for these kids we're really connectivity for these kids we're really connectivity for these kids we're really crossing the chasm and bridging that crossing the chasm and bridging that crossing the chasm and bridging that digital divide it's not a lot of talk digital divide it's not a lot of talk digital divide it's not a lot of talk it's action and we really do it uh right it's action and we really do it uh right it's action and we really do it uh right where it begins with with our youngsters where it begins with with our youngsters where it begins with with our youngsters with the kids and so uh anyway get some with the kids and so uh anyway get some with the kids and so uh anyway get some merch elevar kids.org is that the uh the merch elevar kids.org is that the uh the merch elevar kids.org is that the uh the website I that's what it is yeah website I that's what it is yeah website I that's what it is yeah absolutely and on another note make sure absolutely and on another note make sure absolutely and on another note make sure early next week you watch the latest early next week you watch the latest early next week you watch the latest episode of Windows Phone WTF where we episode of Windows Phone WTF where we episode of Windows Phone WTF where we have Joe B fiori that's gonna be good have Joe B fiori that's gonna be good have Joe B fiori that's gonna be good thanks for the love there mark wow um we thanks for the love there mark wow um we thanks for the love there mark wow um we will see you on the other side we are will see you on the other side we are will see you on the other side we are out out out [Music]