Vivek Ramaswamy: Trump, Conservatism, Nationalism, Immigration, and War | Lex Fridman Podcast #445

the way I would do it 75% headcount the way I would do it 75% headcount reduction across the board in the reduction across the board in the reduction across the board in the federal bureaucracy send them home federal bureaucracy send them home federal bureaucracy send them home packing shut down agencies that packing shut down agencies that packing shut down agencies that shouldn't exist resend every shouldn't exist resend every shouldn't exist resend every unconstitutional regulation that unconstitutional regulation that unconstitutional regulation that Congress never passed in a true Congress never passed in a true Congress never passed in a true self-governing democracy it should be self-governing democracy it should be self-governing democracy it should be our elected representatives that make our elected representatives that make our elected representatives that make the laws and the rules not unelected the laws and the rules not unelected the laws and the rules not unelected bureaucrats Merit and Equity are bureaucrats Merit and Equity are bureaucrats Merit and Equity are actually actually actually incompatible Merit and group quotas are incompatible Merit and group quotas are incompatible Merit and group quotas are incompatible you can have one or the incompatible you can have one or the incompatible you can have one or the other you can't have both it's an other you can't have both it's an other you can't have both it's an assault and a crusade on the nanny State assault and a crusade on the nanny State assault and a crusade on the nanny State itself and that Nanny State presents itself and that Nanny State presents itself and that Nanny State presents itself in several forms there's the itself in several forms there's the itself in several forms there's the entitlement State that's the welfare entitlement State that's the welfare entitlement State that's the welfare state presents itself in the form of the state presents itself in the form of the state presents itself in the form of the regulatory State that's what we're regulatory State that's what we're regulatory State that's what we're talking about and then there's the talking about and then there's the talking about and then there's the foreign Nanny state where effectively we foreign Nanny state where effectively we foreign Nanny state where effectively we are subsidizing other countries that are subsidizing other countries that are subsidizing other countries that aren't paying their fair share of aren't paying their fair share of aren't paying their fair share of protection or other resources we provide protection or other resources we provide protection or other resources we provide them if I was to summarize my ideology them if I was to summarize my ideology them if I was to summarize my ideology in a nutshell it is to terminate The in a nutshell it is to terminate The in a nutshell it is to terminate The Nanny state in the United States of Nanny state in the United States of Nanny state in the United States of America in all of its forms the America in all of its forms the America in all of its forms the entitlement State the regulatory State entitlement State the regulatory State entitlement State the regulatory State and the foreign policy in any state once and the foreign policy in any state once and the foreign policy in any state once we've done that we've revived the we've done that we've revived the we've done that we've revived the Republic that I think would make George Republic that I think would make George Republic that I think would make George Washington Washington Washington proud the following is a conversation proud the following is a conversation proud the following is a conversation with VC ramaswami about the future of with VC ramaswami about the future of with VC ramaswami about the future of conservatism in America he has written conservatism in America he has written conservatism in America he has written many books on this topic including his many books on this topic including his many books on this topic including his latest called truths the future of latest called truths the future of latest called truths the future of America first he ran for president this America first he ran for president this America first he ran for president this year in the Republican primary and is year in the Republican primary and is year in the Republican primary and is considered by many to represent the considered by many to represent the considered by many to represent the future of the the Republican party future of the the Republican party future of the the Republican party before all that he was a successful

before all that he was a successful before all that he was a successful biotech entrepreneur and investor with a biotech entrepreneur and investor with a biotech entrepreneur and investor with a degree in biology from Harvard and a law degree in biology from Harvard and a law degree in biology from Harvard and a law degree from yaleo as always when the degree from yaleo as always when the degree from yaleo as always when the topic is politics I will continue topic is politics I will continue topic is politics I will continue talking to people on both the left and talking to people on both the left and talking to people on both the left and the right with empathy curiosity and the right with empathy curiosity and the right with empathy curiosity and backbone this is Alex frean podcast to backbone this is Alex frean podcast to backbone this is Alex frean podcast to support it please check out our sponsors support it please check out our sponsors support it please check out our sponsors in the description and now dear friends in the description and now dear friends in the description and now dear friends here's VC Ras here's VC Ras here's VC Ras Swami you are one of the great Swami you are one of the great Swami you are one of the great elucidator of conservative ideas so elucidator of conservative ideas so elucidator of conservative ideas so you're the perfect person to ask uh what you're the perfect person to ask uh what you're the perfect person to ask uh what is conservatism what's your let's say is conservatism what's your let's say is conservatism what's your let's say conservative vision for America well conservative vision for America well conservative vision for America well actually this is one of my criticisms of actually this is one of my criticisms of actually this is one of my criticisms of the modern Republican party and the modern Republican party and the modern Republican party and direction of the conservative movement direction of the conservative movement direction of the conservative movement is that we've gotten so good at is that we've gotten so good at is that we've gotten so good at describing what we're against there's a describing what we're against there's a describing what we're against there's a list of things that we could rail list of things that we could rail list of things that we could rail against to wokeism transgender ideology against to wokeism transgender ideology against to wokeism transgender ideology climate ideology cism Co policies the climate ideology cism Co policies the climate ideology cism Co policies the radical bid agenda the radical Harris radical bid agenda the radical Harris radical bid agenda the radical Harris agenda the list goes on but actually agenda the list goes on but actually agenda the list goes on but actually what's missing in the conservative what's missing in the conservative what's missing in the conservative movement right now is what we actually movement right now is what we actually movement right now is what we actually stand for what is our vision for the stand for what is our vision for the stand for what is our vision for the future of the country and I saw that as future of the country and I saw that as future of the country and I saw that as a deficit at the time I started my a deficit at the time I started my a deficit at the time I started my presidential campaign it was in many presidential campaign it was in many presidential campaign it was in many ways the purpose of my campaign because ways the purpose of my campaign because ways the purpose of my campaign because I do feel that that's why we didn't have I do feel that that's why we didn't have I do feel that that's why we didn't have the Red Wave in 2022 the Red Wave in 2022 the Red Wave in 2022 so they tried to blame Donald Trump they so they tried to blame Donald Trump they so they tried to blame Donald Trump they tried to blame abortion they blamed a tried to blame abortion they blamed a tried to blame abortion they blamed a bunch of individual specific issues or

bunch of individual specific issues or bunch of individual specific issues or factors I think the real reason we factors I think the real reason we factors I think the real reason we didn't have that red wave was that we didn't have that red wave was that we didn't have that red wave was that we got so practiced at criticizing Joe got so practiced at criticizing Joe got so practiced at criticizing Joe Biden that we forgot to articulate who Biden that we forgot to articulate who Biden that we forgot to articulate who we are and what we stand for so what do we are and what we stand for so what do we are and what we stand for so what do we stand for as we stand for as we stand for as conservatives I think we stand for the conservatives I think we stand for the conservatives I think we stand for the ideals that we fought the American ideals that we fought the American ideals that we fought the American Revolution for in Revolution for in Revolution for in 1776 ideals like Merit right that the 1776 ideals like Merit right that the 1776 ideals like Merit right that the best person gets the job without regard best person gets the job without regard best person gets the job without regard to their genetics that you get ahead in to their genetics that you get ahead in to their genetics that you get ahead in this country not on the color of your this country not on the color of your this country not on the color of your skin but on the content of your skin but on the content of your skin but on the content of your character Free Speech an open debate not character Free Speech an open debate not character Free Speech an open debate not just as some sort of Catchphrase but the just as some sort of Catchphrase but the just as some sort of Catchphrase but the idea that any opinion no matter how idea that any opinion no matter how idea that any opinion no matter how heinous you get to express it in the heinous you get to express it in the heinous you get to express it in the United States of America self-governance United States of America self-governance United States of America self-governance and this is a big one right now is that and this is a big one right now is that and this is a big one right now is that the people we elect to run the the people we elect to run the the people we elect to run the government they're no longer the ones government they're no longer the ones government they're no longer the ones who actually run the government we in who actually run the government we in who actually run the government we in the conservative movement I believe the conservative movement I believe the conservative movement I believe should believe in restoring should believe in restoring should believe in restoring self-governance where it's not self-governance where it's not self-governance where it's not bureaucrats running the show but bureaucrats running the show but bureaucrats running the show but actually elected representatives and actually elected representatives and actually elected representatives and then the other the other ideal that the then the other the other ideal that the then the other the other ideal that the nation was founded on that I think we nation was founded on that I think we nation was founded on that I think we need to revive and I think as a North need to revive and I think as a North need to revive and I think as a North star of the conservative movement is star of the conservative movement is star of the conservative movement is restoring the rule of law in this restoring the rule of law in this restoring the rule of law in this country you think about even the country you think about even the country you think about even the abandonment of the rule of law at the abandonment of the rule of law at the abandonment of the rule of law at the southern southern southern border it's particularly personal to me border it's particularly personal to me border it's particularly personal to me as the kid of legal immigrants to this as the kid of legal immigrants to this as the kid of legal immigrants to this country you and I actually share a country you and I actually share a country you and I actually share a couple of aspects in common in that couple of aspects in common in that couple of aspects in common in that regard that also though means your First regard that also though means your First regard that also though means your First Act of entering this country can't break Act of entering this country can't break Act of entering this country can't break break the law so there's some policy break the law so there's some policy break the law so there's some policy commitments and principles Merit Free commitments and principles Merit Free commitments and principles Merit Free Speech self-governance rule of law and

Speech self-governance rule of law and Speech self-governance rule of law and then I think culturally what does it then I think culturally what does it then I think culturally what does it mean to be a conservative is it means we mean to be a conservative is it means we mean to be a conservative is it means we believe in the anchors of our identity believe in the anchors of our identity believe in the anchors of our identity in truth the value of the individual in truth the value of the individual in truth the value of the individual family nation and God beat race gender family nation and God beat race gender family nation and God beat race gender sexuality and climate if we have the sexuality and climate if we have the sexuality and climate if we have the courage to actually stand for our own courage to actually stand for our own courage to actually stand for our own vision and that's a big part of what's vision and that's a big part of what's vision and that's a big part of what's been missing and it's a big part of not been missing and it's a big part of not been missing and it's a big part of not just through the campaign but through just through the campaign but through just through the campaign but through you know a lot of my future advocacy you know a lot of my future advocacy you know a lot of my future advocacy that's the vacuum I'm aiming to fill that's the vacuum I'm aiming to fill that's the vacuum I'm aiming to fill yeah we'll talk about each of those yeah we'll talk about each of those yeah we'll talk about each of those issues issues issues immigration the growing bureaucracy of immigration the growing bureaucracy of immigration the growing bureaucracy of government religion is a really government religion is a really government religion is a really interesting topic something you spoken interesting topic something you spoken interesting topic something you spoken about a lot uh but you've also had a lot about a lot uh but you've also had a lot about a lot uh but you've also had a lot of really tense debates so you're a of really tense debates so you're a of really tense debates so you're a perfect person to ask to steal me on the perfect person to ask to steal me on the perfect person to ask to steal me on the other side yeah so let me ask you about other side yeah so let me ask you about other side yeah so let me ask you about progressivism Can you steal me on the progressivism Can you steal me on the progressivism Can you steal me on the case for progressivism and leftwing case for progressivism and leftwing case for progressivism and leftwing ideas yeah so look I think the strongest ideas yeah so look I think the strongest ideas yeah so look I think the strongest case particularly for leftwing ideas in case particularly for leftwing ideas in case particularly for leftwing ideas in the United States so in the American the United States so in the American the United States so in the American context is that the country has been context is that the country has been context is that the country has been imperfect in living up to its ideals so imperfect in living up to its ideals so imperfect in living up to its ideals so even though our founding fathers even though our founding fathers even though our founding fathers preached the importance of life liberty preached the importance of life liberty preached the importance of life liberty in the pursuit of happiness and freedom in the pursuit of happiness and freedom in the pursuit of happiness and freedom they didn't practice those values in they didn't practice those values in they didn't practice those values in terms of many of our founding fathers terms of many of our founding fathers terms of many of our founding fathers being slave owners inequalities with being slave owners inequalities with being slave owners inequalities with respect to women and other disempowered respect to women and other disempowered respect to women and other disempowered groups such that they say that that groups such that they say that that groups such that they say that that creat cre a power structure in this creat cre a power structure in this creat cre a power structure in this country that continues to last to this country that continues to last to this country that continues to last to this day the vestiges of what happened even day the vestiges of what happened even day the vestiges of what happened even in 1860 in the course of human history

in 1860 in the course of human history in 1860 in the course of human history isn't that long ago and that we need to isn't that long ago and that we need to isn't that long ago and that we need to do everything in our power to correct do everything in our power to correct do everything in our power to correct for those imbalances in power in the for those imbalances in power in the for those imbalances in power in the United States that's the core view of United States that's the core view of United States that's the core view of the modern left I'm not criticizing it the modern left I'm not criticizing it the modern left I'm not criticizing it right now I'm steelmanning it I'm trying right now I'm steelmanning it I'm trying right now I'm steelmanning it I'm trying to give you I think a good articulation to give you I think a good articulation to give you I think a good articulation of why the left believes they have a of why the left believes they have a of why the left believes they have a compelling case for the government compelling case for the government compelling case for the government stepping in to correct for historical or stepping in to correct for historical or stepping in to correct for historical or presid presid presid inequalities I can give you my counter inequalities I can give you my counter inequalities I can give you my counter abuttal of that but the best statement abuttal of that but the best statement abuttal of that but the best statement of the left I think that it's the fact of the left I think that it's the fact of the left I think that it's the fact that we've been imperfect in living up that we've been imperfect in living up that we've been imperfect in living up to those ideals in order to fix that to those ideals in order to fix that to those ideals in order to fix that we're going to have to take steps that we're going to have to take steps that we're going to have to take steps that are severe steps if needed to correct are severe steps if needed to correct are severe steps if needed to correct for those historical inequalities before for those historical inequalities before for those historical inequalities before we actually have true equality of we actually have true equality of we actually have true equality of opportunity in this country that's the opportunity in this country that's the opportunity in this country that's the case for the leftwing view in modern case for the leftwing view in modern case for the leftwing view in modern America so what's your criticism of that America so what's your criticism of that America so what's your criticism of that so my concern with it is even if that's so my concern with it is even if that's so my concern with it is even if that's well motivated I think that it recreates well motivated I think that it recreates well motivated I think that it recreates many of the same problems that they were many of the same problems that they were many of the same problems that they were setting out to solve I'll give you a setting out to solve I'll give you a setting out to solve I'll give you a really tangible example of that in the really tangible example of that in the really tangible example of that in the present right now I may be alone amongst present right now I may be alone amongst present right now I may be alone amongst prominent conservatives who would say prominent conservatives who would say prominent conservatives who would say something like this right now but I something like this right now but I something like this right now but I think it's true so I'm going to say it think it's true so I'm going to say it think it's true so I'm going to say it I'm actually even in the last year last I'm actually even in the last year last I'm actually even in the last year last year and a half seeing actually a rise year and a half seeing actually a rise year and a half seeing actually a rise in anti-black and anti-minority racism in anti-black and anti-minority racism in anti-black and anti-minority racism in this country which is a little in this country which is a little in this country which is a little curious right when over the last 10 curious right when over the last 10 curious right when over the last 10 years we got as close to Martin Luther years we got as close to Martin Luther years we got as close to Martin Luther King's Promised Land as you could King's Promised Land as you could King's Promised Land as you could Envision place where you have every Envision place where you have every Envision place where you have every American regardless of their skin color American regardless of their skin color American regardless of their skin color able to vote without obstruction a place able to vote without obstruction a place able to vote without obstruction a place where you have people able to get the where you have people able to get the where you have people able to get the highest jobs in the land without race highest jobs in the land without race highest jobs in the land without race standing in their way why are we seeing

standing in their way why are we seeing standing in their way why are we seeing that Resurgence in part it's because of that Resurgence in part it's because of that Resurgence in part it's because of I believe that left-wing obsession with I believe that left-wing obsession with I believe that left-wing obsession with racial Equity over the course of the racial Equity over the course of the racial Equity over the course of the last 20 years in this country and so last 20 years in this country and so last 20 years in this country and so when you take something away from when you take something away from when you take something away from someone based on their skin color and someone based on their skin color and someone based on their skin color and that's what correcting for prior that's what correcting for prior that's what correcting for prior Injustice was supposed to do the Injustice was supposed to do the Injustice was supposed to do the leftwing views are to correct for prior leftwing views are to correct for prior leftwing views are to correct for prior Injustice by saying that whether you're Injustice by saying that whether you're Injustice by saying that whether you're white straight white straight white straight man you have certain privileges that you man you have certain privileges that you man you have certain privileges that you have to actually correct for when you have to actually correct for when you have to actually correct for when you take something away from somebody based take something away from somebody based take something away from somebody based on their genetics you actually Foster on their genetics you actually Foster on their genetics you actually Foster greater animus towards other groups greater animus towards other groups greater animus towards other groups around you and so the problem with that around you and so the problem with that around you and so the problem with that philosophy is that it creates there are philosophy is that it creates there are philosophy is that it creates there are several problems with it but the most several problems with it but the most several problems with it but the most significant problem that I think significant problem that I think significant problem that I think everybody can agree we want to avoid is everybody can agree we want to avoid is everybody can agree we want to avoid is to actually fan the Flames of the very to actually fan the Flames of the very to actually fan the Flames of the very divisions that you supposedly wanted to divisions that you supposedly wanted to divisions that you supposedly wanted to heal I see that in a context of our heal I see that in a context of our heal I see that in a context of our immigration policy as well you think immigration policy as well you think immigration policy as well you think about even what's going on in I'm from about even what's going on in I'm from about even what's going on in I'm from Ohio I was born and raised in Ohio and I Ohio I was born and raised in Ohio and I Ohio I was born and raised in Ohio and I live there today the controversy in live there today the controversy in live there today the controversy in Springfield Ohio I personally don't Springfield Ohio I personally don't Springfield Ohio I personally don't blame really any of the people who are blame really any of the people who are blame really any of the people who are in Springfield either the native people in Springfield either the native people in Springfield either the native people who have born and raised in Springfield who have born and raised in Springfield who have born and raised in Springfield or even the Haitians who have been moved or even the Haitians who have been moved or even the Haitians who have been moved to Springfield but it ends up becoming a to Springfield but it ends up becoming a to Springfield but it ends up becoming a divide and conquer strategy and outcome divide and conquer strategy and outcome divide and conquer strategy and outcome where if you put 20,000 people in a where if you put 20,000 people in a where if you put 20,000 people in a community where 50,000 people where the community where 50,000 people where the community where 50,000 people where the 20,000 are coming in don't know the 20,000 are coming in don't know the 20,000 are coming in don't know the language are unable to follow the language are unable to follow the language are unable to follow the traffic laws are unable to assimilate traffic laws are unable to assimilate traffic laws are unable to assimilate you know there's going to be a you know there's going to be a you know there's going to be a reactionary backlash and so even though reactionary backlash and so even though reactionary backlash and so even though that began perhaps with some type of

that began perhaps with some type of that began perhaps with some type of some type of charitable Instinct right some type of charitable Instinct right some type of charitable Instinct right some type of sympathy for people who some type of sympathy for people who some type of sympathy for people who went through the Earth the earthquake in went through the Earth the earthquake in went through the Earth the earthquake in 2010 in Haiti and achieved temporary 2010 in Haiti and achieved temporary 2010 in Haiti and achieved temporary protective status in the United States protective status in the United States protective status in the United States what began with sympathy what began with what began with sympathy what began with what began with sympathy what began with Earnest intentions actually creates the Earnest intentions actually creates the Earnest intentions actually creates the very Division and reactionary response very Division and reactionary response very Division and reactionary response that's supposedly we say we wanted to that's supposedly we say we wanted to that's supposedly we say we wanted to avoid so that's my number one criticism avoid so that's my number one criticism avoid so that's my number one criticism of that leftwing worldview number two is of that leftwing worldview number two is of that leftwing worldview number two is I do believe that Merit and Equity are I do believe that Merit and Equity are I do believe that Merit and Equity are actually actually actually incompatible Merit and group quotas are incompatible Merit and group quotas are incompatible Merit and group quotas are incompatible you can have one or the incompatible you can have one or the incompatible you can have one or the other you can't have both and the reason other you can't have both and the reason other you can't have both and the reason why is no two people and I think it's a why is no two people and I think it's a why is no two people and I think it's a beautiful thing it's true between you beautiful thing it's true between you beautiful thing it's true between you and I between youi and all of our and I between youi and all of our and I between youi and all of our friends or family or strangers or friends or family or strangers or friends or family or strangers or neighbors or colleagues no two people neighbors or colleagues no two people neighbors or colleagues no two people have the same skill sets we're each have the same skill sets we're each have the same skill sets we're each endowed by different gifts we're each endowed by different gifts we're each endowed by different gifts we're each endowed with different talents and endowed with different talents and endowed with different talents and that's the beauty of human that's the beauty of human that's the beauty of human diversity and a true meritocracy is a diversity and a true meritocracy is a diversity and a true meritocracy is a system in which you're able to achieve system in which you're able to achieve system in which you're able to achieve the maximum of your god-given potential the maximum of your god-given potential the maximum of your god-given potential without anybody standing in your way but without anybody standing in your way but without anybody standing in your way but that means necessarily there's going to that means necessarily there's going to that means necessarily there's going to be differences and outcomes in a wide be differences and outcomes in a wide be differences and outcomes in a wide range of parameters not just Financial range of parameters not just Financial range of parameters not just Financial not just money not just fame or currency not just money not just fame or currency not just money not just fame or currency or whatever it is there's just going to or whatever it is there's just going to or whatever it is there's just going to be different outcomes for different be different outcomes for different be different outcomes for different people in different spheres of lives people in different spheres of lives people in different spheres of lives and that's what meritocracy demands it's and that's what meritocracy demands it's and that's what meritocracy demands it's what it requires and so the left's what it requires and so the left's what it requires and so the left's vision of group Equity necessarily comes vision of group Equity necessarily comes vision of group Equity necessarily comes at the cost of meritocracy and so those at the cost of meritocracy and so those at the cost of meritocracy and so those are be my two reasons for opposing the

are be my two reasons for opposing the are be my two reasons for opposing the view is one is it's not meritocratic but view is one is it's not meritocratic but view is one is it's not meritocratic but number two is it often even has the number two is it often even has the number two is it often even has the effect of hurting the very people they effect of hurting the very people they effect of hurting the very people they claimed to have wanted to help and I claimed to have wanted to help and I claimed to have wanted to help and I think that's part of what we're seeing think that's part of what we're seeing think that's part of what we're seeing in modern America yeah you had a pretty in modern America yeah you had a pretty in modern America yeah you had a pretty intense debate with Mark hubin a great intense debate with Mark hubin a great intense debate with Mark hubin a great conversation I think it's on your conversation I think it's on your conversation I think it's on your podcast actually yes yeah podcast actually yes yeah podcast actually yes yeah that's great okay well speaking of good that's great okay well speaking of good that's great okay well speaking of good guys he he messages me all the time with guys he he messages me all the time with guys he he messages me all the time with with beautifully eloquent criticism I with beautifully eloquent criticism I with beautifully eloquent criticism I appreciate that Mark uh what was uh what appreciate that Mark uh what was uh what appreciate that Mark uh what was uh what was one of the more convincing things he was one of the more convincing things he was one of the more convincing things he said to you you're mostly focus on kind said to you you're mostly focus on kind said to you you're mostly focus on kind of Dei so so let's just take a step back of Dei so so let's just take a step back of Dei so so let's just take a step back and understand because people use these and understand because people use these and understand because people use these acronyms and then they start saying it acronyms and then they start saying it acronyms and then they start saying it out of muscle memory and stop asking out of muscle memory and stop asking out of muscle memory and stop asking what it actually means like Dei refers what it actually means like Dei refers what it actually means like Dei refers to Capital D diversity equity and to Capital D diversity equity and to Capital D diversity equity and inclusion which is a philosophy adopted inclusion which is a philosophy adopted inclusion which is a philosophy adopted by institutions principally in the by institutions principally in the by institutions principally in the private sector companies nonprofits and private sector companies nonprofits and private sector companies nonprofits and universities to say that they need to universities to say that they need to universities to say that they need to strive for specific forms of racial strive for specific forms of racial strive for specific forms of racial gender and Sexual Orientation Diversity gender and Sexual Orientation Diversity gender and Sexual Orientation Diversity and it's not just the D it's the equity and it's not just the D it's the equity and it's not just the D it's the equity in ensuring that you have equal outcomes in ensuring that you have equal outcomes in ensuring that you have equal outcomes as measured by certain group quota as measured by certain group quota as measured by certain group quota targets or group representation targets targets or group representation targets targets or group representation targets that they would meet in their ranks now that they would meet in their ranks now that they would meet in their ranks now the problem with the Dei agenda is in the problem with the Dei agenda is in the problem with the Dei agenda is in the name of diversity it actually has the name of diversity it actually has the name of diversity it actually has been a vehicle for sacrificing true been a vehicle for sacrificing true been a vehicle for sacrificing true diversity of thought so the way the diversity of thought so the way the diversity of thought so the way the argument goes is this is that we have to argument goes is this is that we have to argument goes is this is that we have to create an environment that is receptive create an environment that is receptive create an environment that is receptive to minorities and minority views but if to minorities and minority views but if to minorities and minority views but if certain opinions are themselves deemed certain opinions are themselves deemed certain opinions are themselves deemed to be hostile to those minorities then

to be hostile to those minorities then to be hostile to those minorities then you have to exclude those opinions in you have to exclude those opinions in you have to exclude those opinions in the name of the capital D diversity but the name of the capital D diversity but the name of the capital D diversity but that means that you're necessarily that means that you're necessarily that means that you're necessarily sacrificing actual diversity of thought sacrificing actual diversity of thought sacrificing actual diversity of thought I can give you a very specific example I can give you a very specific example I can give you a very specific example that might sound like okay well is it that might sound like okay well is it that might sound like okay well is it such a bad thing if an organization such a bad thing if an organization such a bad thing if an organization doesn't want to exclude people who are doesn't want to exclude people who are doesn't want to exclude people who are saying racist things on a given day we saying racist things on a given day we saying racist things on a given day we could debate that but let's get to the could debate that but let's get to the could debate that but let's get to the tangible world of how that actually tangible world of how that actually tangible world of how that actually plays out I I for my part have not plays out I I for my part have not plays out I I for my part have not really heard in ordinary America people really heard in ordinary America people really heard in ordinary America people uttering racial epithets if you're going uttering racial epithets if you're going uttering racial epithets if you're going to a restaurant or in the grocery store to a restaurant or in the grocery store to a restaurant or in the grocery store it's not something I've encountered it's not something I've encountered it's not something I've encountered certainly not in the workplace but certainly not in the workplace but certainly not in the workplace but that's a theoretical case let's talk that's a theoretical case let's talk that's a theoretical case let's talk about the real world case of how this about the real world case of how this about the real world case of how this plays out so there there was an instance plays out so there there was an instance plays out so there there was an instance it was a case that presented itself it was a case that presented itself it was a case that presented itself before the equal employment opportunity before the equal employment opportunity before the equal employment opportunity commission the EEOC one of the commission the EEOC one of the commission the EEOC one of the government enforcers of the Dei agenda government enforcers of the Dei agenda government enforcers of the Dei agenda and there was a case of a woman who wore and there was a case of a woman who wore and there was a case of a woman who wore red sweater on Fridays in celebration of red sweater on Fridays in celebration of red sweater on Fridays in celebration of veterans and those who had served the veterans and those who had served the veterans and those who had served the military and invited others in the military and invited others in the military and invited others in the workplace to do the same thing and they workplace to do the same thing and they workplace to do the same thing and they had a kind of affinity group you could had a kind of affinity group you could had a kind of affinity group you could call it that a veteran type affinity call it that a veteran type affinity call it that a veteran type affinity group appreciating those who had served group appreciating those who had served group appreciating those who had served her son had served as well there was a her son had served as well there was a her son had served as well there was a minority employee at that business who minority employee at that business who minority employee at that business who said that he found that to be a said that he found that to be a said that he found that to be a microaggression so the employer asked microaggression so the employer asked microaggression so the employer asked her to stop wearing said clothes to the her to stop wearing said clothes to the her to stop wearing said clothes to the office well she still felt like she office well she still felt like she office well she still felt like she wanted to celebrate I think it was wanted to celebrate I think it was wanted to celebrate I think it was Friday was the day of the week where Friday was the day of the week where Friday was the day of the week where they did it she still wore the red they did it she still wore the red they did it she still wore the red sweater and she she she didn't wear it sweater and she she she didn't wear it sweater and she she she didn't wear it but she would hang it on the back of her but she would hang it on the back of her but she would hang it on the back of her seat right put it on the back of her seat right put it on the back of her seat right put it on the back of her seat at the office they said no no no seat at the office they said no no no seat at the office they said no no no you can't do that either so the iron is you can't do that either so the iron is you can't do that either so the iron is in the name of this capital D diversity in the name of this capital D diversity in the name of this capital D diversity which is creating a supposedly welcoming

which is creating a supposedly welcoming which is creating a supposedly welcoming workplace for all kinds of Americans by workplace for all kinds of Americans by workplace for all kinds of Americans by focusing only on certain kinds of focusing only on certain kinds of focusing only on certain kinds of so-called diversity that translates into so-called diversity that translates into so-called diversity that translates into actually not even a diversity of your actually not even a diversity of your actually not even a diversity of your genetics which is what they claim to be genetics which is what they claim to be genetics which is what they claim to be solving for but also a host ility to solving for but also a host ility to solving for but also a host ility to diversity of thought and I think that's diversity of thought and I think that's diversity of thought and I think that's dangerous and you're seeing that happen dangerous and you're seeing that happen dangerous and you're seeing that happen in the last four years across this in the last four years across this in the last four years across this country it's been pretty rampant I think country it's been pretty rampant I think country it's been pretty rampant I think it leaves America worse off the beauty it leaves America worse off the beauty it leaves America worse off the beauty of America is we're a country where we of America is we're a country where we of America is we're a country where we should be able to have institutions that should be able to have institutions that should be able to have institutions that are stronger from different points of are stronger from different points of are stronger from different points of view being expressed but my number one view being expressed but my number one view being expressed but my number one criticism of the Dei agenda is not even criticism of the Dei agenda is not even criticism of the Dei agenda is not even that it's anti meritocratic it is anti that it's anti meritocratic it is anti that it's anti meritocratic it is anti meritocratic but my number one criticism meritocratic but my number one criticism meritocratic but my number one criticism is actually hostile to the free and open is actually hostile to the free and open is actually hostile to the free and open exchange of ideas by creating off legal exchange of ideas by creating off legal exchange of ideas by creating off legal liabilities for organizations that even liabilities for organizations that even liabilities for organizations that even permit certain viewpoints to be permit certain viewpoints to be permit certain viewpoints to be expressed and I think that's the biggest expressed and I think that's the biggest expressed and I think that's the biggest concern I think what mark would say is concern I think what mark would say is concern I think what mark would say is that that that diversity uh allows you to look for diversity uh allows you to look for diversity uh allows you to look for talent in places where you haven't talent in places where you haven't talent in places where you haven't looked before and therefore find really looked before and therefore find really looked before and therefore find really special uh Talent special people I think special uh Talent special people I think special uh Talent special people I think that's the case he made he did make that that's the case he made he did make that that's the case he made he did make that case and it was a great conversation and case and it was a great conversation and case and it was a great conversation and and my response to that is great that's and my response to that is great that's and my response to that is great that's a good thing we don't need a a good thing we don't need a a good thing we don't need a three-letter acronym to do that right three-letter acronym to do that right three-letter acronym to do that right you don't need special programmatic Dei you don't need special programmatic Dei you don't need special programmatic Dei incentives to do it because companies incentives to do it because companies incentives to do it because companies are always going to seek in a truly free are always going to seek in a truly free are always going to seek in a truly free market which I think we're missing in market which I think we're missing in market which I think we're missing in the United States today for a lot of the United States today for a lot of the United States today for a lot of reasons but in a truly free market reasons but in a truly free market reasons but in a truly free market companies will have the incentive to companies will have the incentive to companies will have the incentive to hire the best and brightest or else hire the best and brightest or else hire the best and brightest or else they're going to be less competitive

they're going to be less competitive they're going to be less competitive versus other companies but you don't versus other companies but you don't versus other companies but you don't need ESG Dei CSR regimes in part need ESG Dei CSR regimes in part need ESG Dei CSR regimes in part enforced by the government to do it enforced by the government to do it enforced by the government to do it today to be a government contractor for today to be a government contractor for today to be a government contractor for example you have to adopt certain racial example you have to adopt certain racial example you have to adopt certain racial and gender representation targets and and gender representation targets and and gender representation targets and Workforce that's not the free market Workforce that's not the free market Workforce that's not the free market working so I think you can have it both working so I think you can have it both working so I think you can have it both ways either it's going to be good for ways either it's going to be good for ways either it's going to be good for companies and companies are going to do companies and companies are going to do companies and companies are going to do what's in their self-interest that's what's in their self-interest that's what's in their self-interest that's what capitalists like Mark Cuban and I what capitalists like Mark Cuban and I what capitalists like Mark Cuban and I believe but if we really believe that believe but if we really believe that believe but if we really believe that then we should let the market work then we should let the market work then we should let the market work rather than forcing it to adopt these rather than forcing it to adopt these rather than forcing it to adopt these top- down standards that's my issue with top- down standards that's my issue with top- down standards that's my issue with it I don't know what it is about human it I don't know what it is about human it I don't know what it is about human psychology but whenever you have a sort psychology but whenever you have a sort psychology but whenever you have a sort of administration a committee that gets of administration a committee that gets of administration a committee that gets together to do a good thing the together to do a good thing the together to do a good thing the committee starts to use the good thing committee starts to use the good thing committee starts to use the good thing that ideology behind which there's a that ideology behind which there's a that ideology behind which there's a good ideal to bully people and to do bad good ideal to bully people and to do bad good ideal to bully people and to do bad things I don't know what it is this has things I don't know what it is this has things I don't know what it is this has less to do with leftwing versus less to do with leftwing versus less to do with leftwing versus right-wing ideology and more the nature right-wing ideology and more the nature right-wing ideology and more the nature of a bureaucracy is one that looks after of a bureaucracy is one that looks after of a bureaucracy is one that looks after its own existence as its top goal so so its own existence as its top goal so so its own existence as its top goal so so part of what you've seen with the part of what you've seen with the part of what you've seen with the so-called perpetuation of wokeness in so-called perpetuation of wokeness in so-called perpetuation of wokeness in American life is that the bureaucracy American life is that the bureaucracy American life is that the bureaucracy has used the appearance of virtue to has used the appearance of virtue to has used the appearance of virtue to actually deflect accountabilities for actually deflect accountabilities for actually deflect accountabilities for its own failure so you've seen that in its own failure so you've seen that in its own failure so you've seen that in several different spheres of American several different spheres of American several different spheres of American life you could even talk about in the life you could even talk about in the life you could even talk about in the military right you think about our entry military right you think about our entry military right you think about our entry into Iraq after 911 had nothing to do into Iraq after 911 had nothing to do into Iraq after 911 had nothing to do with the stated objectives that we had with the stated objectives that we had with the stated objectives that we had and I think by all accounts it was it

and I think by all accounts it was it and I think by all accounts it was it was a policy move we regret our policy was a policy move we regret our policy was a policy move we regret our policy ranks and our foreign policy ranks and our foreign policy ranks and our foreign policy establishment made a mistake in entering establishment made a mistake in entering establishment made a mistake in entering Iraq invading a country that really by Iraq invading a country that really by Iraq invading a country that really by all accounts was not at all responsible all accounts was not at all responsible all accounts was not at all responsible for 911 for 911 for 911 nonetheless if you're part of the US nonetheless if you're part of the US nonetheless if you're part of the US military or your general Mark Millie you military or your general Mark Millie you military or your general Mark Millie you would rather talk about white Rage or would rather talk about white Rage or would rather talk about white Rage or systemic racism then you would actually systemic racism then you would actually systemic racism then you would actually talk about the military's actual talk about the military's actual talk about the military's actual substantive failures it's what I call substantive failures it's what I call substantive failures it's what I call the practice of blowing woke smoke to the practice of blowing woke smoke to the practice of blowing woke smoke to deflect accountability can say the same deflect accountability can say the same deflect accountability can say the same thing with respect to the educational thing with respect to the educational thing with respect to the educational system it's a lot easier to claim that system it's a lot easier to claim that system it's a lot easier to claim that and I'm not the one making this claim and I'm not the one making this claim and I'm not the one making this claim but others have made this claim that but others have made this claim that but others have made this claim that math is racist because there are math is racist because there are math is racist because there are inequitable results on objective tests inequitable results on objective tests inequitable results on objective tests of mathematics based on different of mathematics based on different of mathematics based on different demographic attributes you can claim demographic attributes you can claim demographic attributes you can claim using that that math is racist it's a using that that math is racist it's a using that that math is racist it's a lot easier to blow that woke smoke than lot easier to blow that woke smoke than lot easier to blow that woke smoke than it is to accept accountability for it is to accept accountability for it is to accept accountability for failing to teach black kids in the inner failing to teach black kids in the inner failing to teach black kids in the inner city how to actually do math and fix our city how to actually do math and fix our city how to actually do math and fix our Public School Systems and the and the Public School Systems and the and the Public School Systems and the and the zip code coded mechanism for trapping zip code coded mechanism for trapping zip code coded mechanism for trapping kids in poor communities in bad schools kids in poor communities in bad schools kids in poor communities in bad schools so I think that in many cases what these so I think that in many cases what these so I think that in many cases what these bureaucracies do is they use the bureaucracies do is they use the bureaucracies do is they use the appearance of signaling this virtue as a appearance of signaling this virtue as a appearance of signaling this virtue as a way of not really advancing a social way of not really advancing a social way of not really advancing a social cause but it's strengthening the power cause but it's strengthening the power cause but it's strengthening the power of the bureaucracy itself and insulating of the bureaucracy itself and insulating of the bureaucracy itself and insulating that bureaucracy from criticism so so in that bureaucracy from criticism so so in that bureaucracy from criticism so so in many ways bureaucracy I think carves the many ways bureaucracy I think carves the many ways bureaucracy I think carves the channels through which much of this woke channels through which much of this woke channels through which much of this woke ideology has flowed over the last ideology has flowed over the last ideology has flowed over the last several years and that's why part of my several years and that's why part of my several years and that's why part of my focus has shifted away from just

focus has shifted away from just focus has shifted away from just combating wokeness because that's just a combating wokeness because that's just a combating wokeness because that's just a symptom I think versus combating actual symptom I think versus combating actual symptom I think versus combating actual bureaucracy itself the rise of this bureaucracy itself the rise of this bureaucracy itself the rise of this managerial class the rise of the deep managerial class the rise of the deep managerial class the rise of the deep State we talk about that in the State we talk about that in the State we talk about that in the government but the Deep State doesn't government but the Deep State doesn't government but the Deep State doesn't just exist in the government it exists I just exist in the government it exists I just exist in the government it exists I think in every sphere of Our Lives from think in every sphere of Our Lives from think in every sphere of Our Lives from companies to non-profits to universities companies to non-profits to universities companies to non-profits to universities it's the rise of you call the managerial it's the rise of you call the managerial it's the rise of you call the managerial class the committee class the people who class the committee class the people who class the committee class the people who professionally sit on committees I think professionally sit on committees I think professionally sit on committees I think are wielding far more power today than are wielding far more power today than are wielding far more power today than actual creators entrepreneurs original actual creators entrepreneurs original actual creators entrepreneurs original ideators and and ordinary citizens alike ideators and and ordinary citizens alike ideators and and ordinary citizens alike yeah you need managers but as few as yeah you need managers but as few as yeah you need managers but as few as possible uh it seems like when you have possible uh it seems like when you have possible uh it seems like when you have a giant managerial class they the actual a giant managerial class they the actual a giant managerial class they the actual doers don't get to to do uh but like you doers don't get to to do uh but like you doers don't get to to do uh but like you said said said bureaucracy is uh a phenomena of both bureaucracy is uh a phenomena of both bureaucracy is uh a phenomena of both the left and the right this is not it's the left and the right this is not it's the left and the right this is not it's not even a left or right it's it's it's not even a left or right it's it's it's not even a left or right it's it's it's just transcends that but it's just transcends that but it's just transcends that but it's anti-American at its core so our anti-American at its core so our anti-American at its core so our founding fathers they were founding fathers they were founding fathers they were anti-bureaucratic at their core actually anti-bureaucratic at their core actually anti-bureaucratic at their core actually they were the Pioneers the Explorers the they were the Pioneers the Explorers the they were the Pioneers the Explorers the unafraid right they were the inventors unafraid right they were the inventors unafraid right they were the inventors the creators people forget this about the creators people forget this about the creators people forget this about Benjamin Franklin who signed the Benjamin Franklin who signed the Benjamin Franklin who signed the Declaration of Independence one of the Declaration of Independence one of the Declaration of Independence one of the great inventors that we have in the great inventors that we have in the great inventors that we have in the United States as well he invented the United States as well he invented the United States as well he invented the lightning rod he invented the Franklin lightning rod he invented the Franklin lightning rod he invented the Franklin stove which was actually one of the stove which was actually one of the stove which was actually one of the great Innovations of the in the field of great Innovations of the in the field of great Innovations of the in the field of thermodynamics he even invented a number thermodynamics he even invented a number thermodynamics he even invented a number of musical instruments that Mozart and of musical instruments that Mozart and of musical instruments that Mozart and Beethoven went on to use that's just Beethoven went on to use that's just Beethoven went on to use that's just Benjamin Franklin so you think oh he's a

Benjamin Franklin so you think oh he's a Benjamin Franklin so you think oh he's a one-off everybody think okay he was the one-off everybody think okay he was the one-off everybody think okay he was the one zany founder who was also a creative one zany founder who was also a creative one zany founder who was also a creative scientific innovator who happened to be scientific innovator who happened to be scientific innovator who happened to be one of the founders of the country wrong one of the founders of the country wrong one of the founders of the country wrong it wasn't unique to him you have Thomas it wasn't unique to him you have Thomas it wasn't unique to him you have Thomas Jefferson what what are you sitting in Jefferson what what are you sitting in Jefferson what what are you sitting in right now you're sitting in a on a right now you're sitting in a on a right now you're sitting in a on a swivel chair mhm okay who invented the swivel chair mhm okay who invented the swivel chair mhm okay who invented the swivel chair Thomas Jefferson yes Thomas swivel chair Thomas Jefferson yes Thomas swivel chair Thomas Jefferson yes Thomas Jefferson funny enough he invented the Jefferson funny enough he invented the Jefferson funny enough he invented the swivel chair while he was writing the swivel chair while he was writing the swivel chair while he was writing the Declaration of Independence you you're Declaration of Independence you you're Declaration of Independence you you're the one that reminded me that he drafted the one that reminded me that he drafted the one that reminded me that he drafted he wrote the Declaration of Independence he wrote the Declaration of Independence he wrote the Declaration of Independence when he was 33 and he was 33 when he did when he was 33 and he was 33 when he did when he was 33 and he was 33 when he did it while inventing the swivel chair I it while inventing the swivel chair I it while inventing the swivel chair I like how you're focus on the swivel like how you're focus on the swivel like how you're focus on the swivel chair can we just pause on the de chair can we just pause on the de chair can we just pause on the de aration of Independence it makes me but aration of Independence it makes me but aration of Independence it makes me but the Declaration of the Declaration of the Declaration of the Declaration of the Declaration of the Declaration of Independence part everybody knows what Independence part everybody knows what Independence part everybody knows what people don't know he was an architect so people don't know he was an architect so people don't know he was an architect so he worked in Virginia but the Virginia he worked in Virginia but the Virginia he worked in Virginia but the Virginia state capital Dome so the building state capital Dome so the building state capital Dome so the building that's in Virginia today where the state that's in Virginia today where the state that's in Virginia today where the state capital is that Dome was actually capital is that Dome was actually capital is that Dome was actually designed by Thomas Jefferson as well so designed by Thomas Jefferson as well so designed by Thomas Jefferson as well so these people weren't people who sat on these people weren't people who sat on these people weren't people who sat on professional committees they weren't professional committees they weren't professional committees they weren't bureaucrats they hated bureaucrats they hated bureaucrats they hated bureaucracy part of Old World England is bureaucracy part of Old World England is bureaucracy part of Old World England is Old World England was committed to the Old World England was committed to the Old World England was committed to the idea of bureaucracy bureaucracy and idea of bureaucracy bureaucracy and idea of bureaucracy bureaucracy and monarchy go hand inand a monarch can't monarchy go hand inand a monarch can't monarchy go hand inand a monarch can't actually administer or govern directly actually administer or govern directly actually administer or govern directly requires a bureaucracy a machine to requires a bureaucracy a machine to requires a bureaucracy a machine to actually technocratic govern for him so actually technocratic govern for him so actually technocratic govern for him so the United States of America was founded the United States of America was founded the United States of America was founded on the idea that we reject that old on the idea that we reject that old on the idea that we reject that old world view right the Old World Vision world view right the Old World Vision world view right the Old World Vision was that we the people cannot be trusted

was that we the people cannot be trusted was that we the people cannot be trusted to self-govern or make decisions for to self-govern or make decisions for to self-govern or make decisions for ourselves we would burn ourselves off ourselves we would burn ourselves off ourselves we would burn ourselves off the planet is the modern version of this the planet is the modern version of this the planet is the modern version of this with existential risks like global with existential risks like global with existential risks like global climate change if we just leave it to climate change if we just leave it to climate change if we just leave it to the people and their Democratic will the people and their Democratic will the people and their Democratic will that's why you need professional that's why you need professional that's why you need professional technocrats educated Elites enlightened technocrats educated Elites enlightened technocrats educated Elites enlightened bureaucrats to be able to set the limits bureaucrats to be able to set the limits bureaucrats to be able to set the limits that actually protect people from their that actually protect people from their that actually protect people from their own worst impulses that's the old world own worst impulses that's the old world own worst impulses that's the old world view in most nations in human history view in most nations in human history view in most nations in human history have operated this way but what made the have operated this way but what made the have operated this way but what made the United States of America United States of America United States of America itself to know what made America great itself to know what made America great itself to know what made America great we have to know what made America itself we have to know what made America itself we have to know what made America itself what made America itself is we said hell what made America itself is we said hell what made America itself is we said hell no to that Vision that we the people for no to that Vision that we the people for no to that Vision that we the people for better wor are going to self-govern better wor are going to self-govern better wor are going to self-govern without the committee class restraining without the committee class restraining without the committee class restraining what we do and the likes of Jefferson what we do and the likes of Jefferson what we do and the likes of Jefferson and Benjamin Franklin and I could give and Benjamin Franklin and I could give and Benjamin Franklin and I could give you examples of John Adams or Robert you examples of John Adams or Robert you examples of John Adams or Robert Livingston you could go straight down Livingston you could go straight down Livingston you could go straight down the list of founding fathers who are the list of founding fathers who are the list of founding fathers who are inventors creators Pioneers explorers inventors creators Pioneers explorers inventors creators Pioneers explorers who also were the very people who came who also were the very people who came who also were the very people who came together to sign the Declaration of together to sign the Declaration of together to sign the Declaration of Independence and so yeah this rise of Independence and so yeah this rise of Independence and so yeah this rise of bureaucracy in America in every sphere bureaucracy in America in every sphere bureaucracy in America in every sphere of life I view it as anti-American of life I view it as anti-American of life I view it as anti-American actually and and I hope that you know actually and and I hope that you know actually and and I hope that you know conservatives and liberals alike can can conservatives and liberals alike can can conservatives and liberals alike can can get behind my crusade certainly to get get behind my crusade certainly to get get behind my crusade certainly to get in there and and shut most of it in there and and shut most of it in there and and shut most of it down yeah speaking of shutting most of down yeah speaking of shutting most of down yeah speaking of shutting most of it down how do you propose we do that it down how do you propose we do that it down how do you propose we do that how do we make government more efficient how do we make government more efficient how do we make government more efficient how do make it smaller what the diff how do make it smaller what the diff how do make it smaller what the diff What are the different ideas of how to What are the different ideas of how to What are the different ideas of how to do that well the first thing I will say do that well the first thing I will say do that well the first thing I will say is you're always taking a risk okay

is you're always taking a risk okay is you're always taking a risk okay there's there's no Freel lunch here there's there's no Freel lunch here there's there's no Freel lunch here mostly at least you're always taking a mostly at least you're always taking a mostly at least you're always taking a risk one risk is that you say I want to risk one risk is that you say I want to risk one risk is that you say I want to reform it grad ually I want to have a reform it grad ually I want to have a reform it grad ually I want to have a grand master plan and get to exactly grand master plan and get to exactly grand master plan and get to exactly what the Right End state is and then what the Right End state is and then what the Right End state is and then carefully cut with a chisel like a work carefully cut with a chisel like a work carefully cut with a chisel like a work of art to get there I don't believe that of art to get there I don't believe that of art to get there I don't believe that approach works I think that's an approach works I think that's an approach works I think that's an approach that conservatives have taken approach that conservatives have taken approach that conservatives have taken for many years I think it hasn't gotten for many years I think it hasn't gotten for many years I think it hasn't gotten us very far and the reason is if you us very far and the reason is if you us very far and the reason is if you have like an eight-headed Hydra and you have like an eight-headed Hydra and you have like an eight-headed Hydra and you cut off one of the heads it grows right cut off one of the heads it grows right cut off one of the heads it grows right back the other risk you could take so back the other risk you could take so back the other risk you could take so that's the risk of not cutting enough that's the risk of not cutting enough that's the risk of not cutting enough the other risk you could take is the the other risk you could take is the the other risk you could take is the risk of cutting too much risk of cutting too much risk of cutting too much to say that I'm going to cut so much to say that I'm going to cut so much to say that I'm going to cut so much that I'm going to take the risk of not that I'm going to take the risk of not that I'm going to take the risk of not just cutting the fat but also cutting just cutting the fat but also cutting just cutting the fat but also cutting some muscle along the way that I'm going some muscle along the way that I'm going some muscle along the way that I'm going to take that to take that to take that risk I can't give you option C which is risk I can't give you option C which is risk I can't give you option C which is to say that I'm going to cut exactly the to say that I'm going to cut exactly the to say that I'm going to cut exactly the right amount I'm going to do it right amount I'm going to do it right amount I'm going to do it perfectly okay you don't know X anti you perfectly okay you don't know X anti you perfectly okay you don't know X anti you don't know beforehand that it's exactly don't know beforehand that it's exactly don't know beforehand that it's exactly how it's going to go so that's a how it's going to go so that's a how it's going to go so that's a meaningless claim it's only a question meaningless claim it's only a question meaningless claim it's only a question of which risk you're going to take I of which risk you're going to take I of which risk you're going to take I believe in the moment we live in right believe in the moment we live in right believe in the moment we live in right now the second risk is the risk we have now the second risk is the risk we have now the second risk is the risk we have to be willing to take and we haven't had to be willing to take and we haven't had to be willing to take and we haven't had we haven't had a class of we haven't had a class of we haven't had a class of politician I Donald Trump in 2016 was I politician I Donald Trump in 2016 was I politician I Donald Trump in 2016 was I think the closest we've gotten and I think the closest we've gotten and I think the closest we've gotten and I think the second term will be even even think the second term will be even even think the second term will be even even closer to what we need but short of that closer to what we need but short of that closer to what we need but short of that I don't think we've really had a class I don't think we've really had a class I don't think we've really had a class of politician who has gotten very of politician who has gotten very of politician who has gotten very serious about cutting so much that serious about cutting so much that serious about cutting so much that you're also going to cut some fat but you're also going to cut some fat but you're also going to cut some fat but not only some fat but also some muscle not only some fat but also some muscle not only some fat but also some muscle that's the risk we have to take so what

that's the risk we have to take so what that's the risk we have to take so what would I the way I would do it 75% would I the way I would do it 75% would I the way I would do it 75% headcount reduction across the board in headcount reduction across the board in headcount reduction across the board in the federal bureaucracy send them home the federal bureaucracy send them home the federal bureaucracy send them home packing shut down agencies that packing shut down agencies that packing shut down agencies that shouldn't exist resend every shouldn't exist resend every shouldn't exist resend every unconstitutional regulation that unconstitutional regulation that unconstitutional regulation that Congress never passed in a true Congress never passed in a true Congress never passed in a true self-governing democracy it should be self-governing democracy it should be self-governing democracy it should be our elected representatives that make our elected representatives that make our elected representatives that make the laws and the rules not unelected the laws and the rules not unelected the laws and the rules not unelected bureaucrats and that is the single bureaucrats and that is the single bureaucrats and that is the single greatest form of economic stimulus we greatest form of economic stimulus we greatest form of economic stimulus we could have in this country but it is could have in this country but it is could have in this country but it is also the single most effective way to also the single most effective way to also the single most effective way to restore self-governance in our country restore self-governance in our country restore self-governance in our country as well and it is the blueprint for I as well and it is the blueprint for I as well and it is the blueprint for I think how we save this country that's think how we save this country that's think how we save this country that's pretty gangsters pretty gangsters pretty gangsters 75% uh there's this kind of almost meme 75% uh there's this kind of almost meme 75% uh there's this kind of almost meme like video of uh Argentinian president like video of uh Argentinian president like video of uh Argentinian president Harry Harry Harry MLA we're on a whiteboard he has all the MLA we're on a whiteboard he has all the MLA we're on a whiteboard he has all the I think 18 Ministries lined up and he's I think 18 Ministries lined up and he's I think 18 Ministries lined up and he's like he's ripping like dep Department of like he's ripping like dep Department of like he's ripping like dep Department of Education gone and he's just gone like Education gone and he's just gone like Education gone and he's just gone like this uh now the situation in Argentina this uh now the situation in Argentina this uh now the situation in Argentina is pretty dire mhm and and the situation is pretty dire mhm and and the situation is pretty dire mhm and and the situation in United un States is not despite in United un States is not despite in United un States is not despite everybody saying oh the Empire is everybody saying oh the Empire is everybody saying oh the Empire is falling this is still in my opinion the falling this is still in my opinion the falling this is still in my opinion the greatest nation on Earth still the greatest nation on Earth still the greatest nation on Earth still the econom is doing very well still there's econom is doing very well still there's econom is doing very well still there's this is the Hub of culture The Hub of uh this is the Hub of culture The Hub of uh this is the Hub of culture The Hub of uh Innovation The Hub of so many amazing Innovation The Hub of so many amazing Innovation The Hub of so many amazing things um do you think it's possible to things um do you think it's possible to things um do you think it's possible to do something like firing

do something like firing do something like firing 75% of people in government when things 75% of people in government when things 75% of people in government when things are going relatively well are going relatively well are going relatively well yes in fact I think it's necessary and yes in fact I think it's necessary and yes in fact I think it's necessary and essential I think things are depends on essential I think things are depends on essential I think things are depends on depends on what your level of well depends on what your level of well depends on what your level of well really is what your benchmarking against really is what your benchmarking against really is what your benchmarking against America's not built on complacency right America's not built on complacency right America's not built on complacency right we're built on the pursuit of excellence we're built on the pursuit of excellence we're built on the pursuit of excellence and are we still the greatest nation on and are we still the greatest nation on and are we still the greatest nation on planet Earth I believe we are I agree planet Earth I believe we are I agree planet Earth I believe we are I agree with you on that but are we great as we with you on that but are we great as we with you on that but are we great as we could possibly be or even as we have could possibly be or even as we have could possibly be or even as we have been in the past measured against our been in the past measured against our been in the past measured against our own standards of excellence no we're not own standards of excellence no we're not own standards of excellence no we're not I think the nation is in a trajectory of I think the nation is in a trajectory of I think the nation is in a trajectory of decline that doesn't mean it's the end decline that doesn't mean it's the end decline that doesn't mean it's the end the Empire yet but we are a nation in the Empire yet but we are a nation in the Empire yet but we are a nation in Decline right now I don't think we have Decline right now I don't think we have Decline right now I don't think we have to be but part of that decline is driven to be but part of that decline is driven to be but part of that decline is driven by the rise of this managerial class the by the rise of this managerial class the by the rise of this managerial class the bureaucracy sucking the lifeblood out of bureaucracy sucking the lifeblood out of bureaucracy sucking the lifeblood out of the country sucking the lifeblood out of the country sucking the lifeblood out of the country sucking the lifeblood out of our Innovative culture a culture of our Innovative culture a culture of our Innovative culture a culture of self-governance so is it possible yeah self-governance so is it possible yeah self-governance so is it possible yeah it's really possible I mean I'll tell it's really possible I mean I'll tell it's really possible I mean I'll tell you one easy way to do it this is a you one easy way to do it this is a you one easy way to do it this is a little bit I'm being a little bit glib little bit I'm being a little bit glib little bit I'm being a little bit glib here but I think it's not crazy at least here but I think it's not crazy at least here but I think it's not crazy at least as a thought experiment getting there on as a thought experiment getting there on as a thought experiment getting there on day one say that anybody in the federal day one say that anybody in the federal day one say that anybody in the federal bureaucracy Who Was Not Elected elected bureaucracy Who Was Not Elected elected bureaucracy Who Was Not Elected elected representatives obviously are elected by representatives obviously are elected by representatives obviously are elected by the people but if the people who were the people but if the people who were the people but if the people who were not not not elected if your social security number elected if your social security number elected if your social security number ends in an odd number you're out if it ends in an odd number you're out if it ends in an odd number you're out if it ends in an even number you're in there's ends in an even number you're in there's ends in an even number you're in there's a 50% cut right there of those who a 50% cut right there of those who a 50% cut right there of those who remain if your social security number remain if your social security number remain if your social security number starts in an even number you're in and starts in an even number you're in and starts in an even number you're in and if it starts with an odd number you're if it starts with an odd number you're if it starts with an odd number you're out boom that's a 75% reduction then

out boom that's a 75% reduction then out boom that's a 75% reduction then literally stastically okay one of the literally stastically okay one of the literally stastically okay one of the virtu of that it's a thought experiment virtu of that it's a thought experiment virtu of that it's a thought experiment not a policy prescription but one of the not a policy prescription but one of the not a policy prescription but one of the virtues of that thought experiment is virtues of that thought experiment is virtues of that thought experiment is that you don't have a bunch of lawsuits that you don't have a bunch of lawsuits that you don't have a bunch of lawsuits you're dealing with about gender you're dealing with about gender you're dealing with about gender discrimination or racial discrimination discrimination or racial discrimination discrimination or racial discrimination or political Viewpoint discrimination or political Viewpoint discrimination or political Viewpoint discrimination actually the reality is you've at Mass actually the reality is you've at Mass actually the reality is you've at Mass you didn't bring the Chisel you brought you didn't bring the Chisel you brought you didn't bring the Chisel you brought a chainsaw I guarantee you do that on a chainsaw I guarantee you do that on a chainsaw I guarantee you do that on day one and do number step two on day day one and do number step two on day day one and do number step two on day two on day two on day two on day three not a thing will have changed for three not a thing will have changed for three not a thing will have changed for the ordinary American other than the the ordinary American other than the the ordinary American other than the size of their government being a lot size of their government being a lot size of their government being a lot smaller and more restrained spending a smaller and more restrained spending a smaller and more restrained spending a lot less money to operate it and most lot less money to operate it and most lot less money to operate it and most people have run a company especially people have run a company especially people have run a company especially larger companies know this it's 25% of larger companies know this it's 25% of larger companies know this it's 25% of the people who do 80 to 90% of the the people who do 80 to 90% of the the people who do 80 to 90% of the useful work these government agencies useful work these government agencies useful work these government agencies are no different so now imagine you are no different so now imagine you are no different so now imagine you could do that same thought experiment could do that same thought experiment could do that same thought experiment but not just doing it at random but do but not just doing it at random but do but not just doing it at random but do it still at large scale while having it still at large scale while having it still at large scale while having some Metric of screening for those who some Metric of screening for those who some Metric of screening for those who actually had both the greatest actually had both the greatest actually had both the greatest competence as well as the greatest competence as well as the greatest competence as well as the greatest commitment and knowledge of the commitment and knowledge of the commitment and knowledge of the Constitution that I think would Constitution that I think would Constitution that I think would immediately raise not only the Civic immediately raise not only the Civic immediately raise not only the Civic character of the United States now we character of the United States now we character of the United States now we feel okay the people we elect to run the feel okay the people we elect to run the feel okay the people we elect to run the government they've got the power back government they've got the power back government they've got the power back they're running the government again as they're running the government again as they're running the government again as opposed to the unelected bureaucrats who opposed to the unelected bureaucrats who opposed to the unelected bureaucrats who wield the power today it would also wield the power today it would also wield the power today it would also stimulate the economy I mean the stimulate the economy I mean the stimulate the economy I mean the regulatory state is like a wet blanket regulatory state is like a wet blanket regulatory state is like a wet blanket on the American economy most of it's on the American economy most of it's on the American economy most of it's unconstitutional all we require is unconstitutional all we require is unconstitutional all we require is leadership with a spine to get in there leadership with a spine to get in there leadership with a spine to get in there and actually do what conservative and actually do what conservative and actually do what conservative presidents have maybe gestured towards

presidents have maybe gestured towards presidents have maybe gestured towards and talked about but have not really and talked about but have not really and talked about but have not really effectuated ever in modern history and effectuated ever in modern history and effectuated ever in modern history and by the way that kind of thing would by the way that kind of thing would by the way that kind of thing would attract the ultra component to actually attract the ultra component to actually attract the ultra component to actually want to work in government exactly which want to work in government exactly which want to work in government exactly which you're missing today because right now you're missing today because right now you're missing today because right now the government would swallow them up the government would swallow them up the government would swallow them up most competent people feel like that most competent people feel like that most competent people feel like that Bure bureaucratic machine will swallow Bure bureaucratic machine will swallow Bure bureaucratic machine will swallow them whole you clear the decks of 75% of them whole you clear the decks of 75% of them whole you clear the decks of 75% of them real innovators can then show up them real innovators can then show up them real innovators can then show up yeah you know there's kind of this yeah you know there's kind of this yeah you know there's kind of this cynical view of capitalism where people cynical view of capitalism where people cynical view of capitalism where people think that the only reason you do think that the only reason you do think that the only reason you do anything is to earn more money but I anything is to earn more money but I anything is to earn more money but I think a lot of people want to work in think a lot of people want to work in think a lot of people want to work in government to build something that's government to build something that's government to build something that's helpful to a huge number of people yeah helpful to a huge number of people yeah helpful to a huge number of people yeah well look I think well look I think well look I think um there's there's opportunities for the um there's there's opportunities for the um there's there's opportunities for the very best to have large scale very best to have large scale very best to have large scale impact in all kinds of different impact in all kinds of different impact in all kinds of different institutions in our universities sure to institutions in our universities sure to institutions in our universities sure to K through 12 education through K through 12 education through K through 12 education through entrepreneurship I'm obviously very entrepreneurship I'm obviously very entrepreneurship I'm obviously very biased in that regard I think there's a biased in that regard I think there's a biased in that regard I think there's a lot you're able to create that you lot you're able to create that you lot you're able to create that you couldn't create through government but I couldn't create through government but I couldn't create through government but I do think in the moment that we live in do think in the moment that we live in do think in the moment that we live in where our government is as broken as it where our government is as broken as it where our government is as broken as it isn't is as responsible for the isn't is as responsible for the isn't is as responsible for the declining nature of our country yeah I declining nature of our country yeah I declining nature of our country yeah I think bringing in people who are think bringing in people who are think bringing in people who are unafraid talented and able to have an unafraid talented and able to have an unafraid talented and able to have an impact could make all of the difference impact could make all of the difference impact could make all of the difference and and I agree with you I don't think and and I agree with you I don't think and and I agree with you I don't think actually most people even most people actually most people even most people actually most people even most people who say they're motivated by money I who say they're motivated by money I who say they're motivated by money I don't think they're actually motivated don't think they're actually motivated don't think they're actually motivated by money I think most people are driven by money I think most people are driven by money I think most people are driven by a belief that they can do more than by a belief that they can do more than by a belief that they can do more than they're being permitted to do right now

they're being permitted to do right now they're being permitted to do right now with their skill sets see I've never with their skill sets see I've never with their skill sets see I've never I'll tell you that so I've run I've run I'll tell you that so I've run I've run I'll tell you that so I've run I've run a number of companies and one of the a number of companies and one of the a number of companies and one of the things that I used to ask when I was you things that I used to ask when I was you things that I used to ask when I was you know I'm not day-to-day involved in them know I'm not day-to-day involved in them know I'm not day-to-day involved in them anymore but as a CEO I would ask when I anymore but as a CEO I would ask when I anymore but as a CEO I would ask when I did interviews and the first company I did interviews and the first company I did interviews and the first company I started at royan like for four years in started at royan like for four years in started at royan like for four years in I we you know company was pretty big by I we you know company was pretty big by I we you know company was pretty big by that point I would still intent on that point I would still intent on that point I would still intent on interviewing every candidate before they interviewing every candidate before they interviewing every candidate before they joined screening for the culture of that joined screening for the culture of that joined screening for the culture of that person I can talk a lot more about person I can talk a lot more about person I can talk a lot more about things we did to build that culture but things we did to build that culture but things we did to build that culture but one the questions I would always ask one the questions I would always ask one the questions I would always ask them naturally just to start a them naturally just to start a them naturally just to start a conversation it's a pretty basic conversation it's a pretty basic conversation it's a pretty basic question is why did you leave your last question is why did you leave your last question is why did you leave your last job or why are you leaving your last job or why are you leaving your last job or why are you leaving your last job I'll tell you what I didn't hear job I'll tell you what I didn't hear job I'll tell you what I didn't hear very often is that I wasn't paid enough very often is that I wasn't paid enough very often is that I wasn't paid enough right and maybe they'd be shy to tell right and maybe they'd be shy to tell right and maybe they'd be shy to tell you that during an interview but there's you that during an interview but there's you that during an interview but there's indirect ways to signal that that really indirect ways to signal that that really indirect ways to signal that that really wasn't at all like even a top 10 reason wasn't at all like even a top 10 reason wasn't at all like even a top 10 reason why people were leaving their job I'll why people were leaving their job I'll why people were leaving their job I'll give you what the number one reason was give you what the number one reason was give you what the number one reason was is that they felt like they were unable is that they felt like they were unable is that they felt like they were unable to do the true maximum of what their to do the true maximum of what their to do the true maximum of what their potential was in their prior role that's potential was in their prior role that's potential was in their prior role that's the number one reason people leave their the number one reason people leave their the number one reason people leave their job and you know I think by the way job and you know I think by the way job and you know I think by the way that's I would say that I'm saying that that's I would say that I'm saying that that's I would say that I'm saying that in a self- boastful way that we would in a self- boastful way that we would in a self- boastful way that we would attract these people I think it's also attract these people I think it's also attract these people I think it's also true for most of the people who left the true for most of the people who left the true for most of the people who left the company as well Roy vent right and and company as well Roy vent right and and company as well Roy vent right and and and it's and that was true at royin true and it's and that was true at royin true and it's and that was true at royin true at other companies I've I've started I at other companies I've I've started I at other companies I've I've started I think the number one reason people join think the number one reason people join think the number one reason people join companies number one people leave companies number one people leave companies number one people leave companies whether they've been to join companies whether they've been to join companies whether they've been to join mine or to leave mine in the past have mine or to leave mine in the past have mine or to leave mine in the past have been that they feel like they're able to

been that they feel like they're able to been that they feel like they're able to do more than they're able to with their do more than they're able to with their do more than they're able to with their skill set than that environment permits skill set than that environment permits skill set than that environment permits them to actually achieve and so I think them to actually achieve and so I think them to actually achieve and so I think that's what people hung for when we that's what people hung for when we that's what people hung for when we think about capitalism and true free think about capitalism and true free think about capitalism and true free market capitalism and we used words market capitalism and we used words market capitalism and we used words earlier like earlier like earlier like meritocracy it's about building a system meritocracy it's about building a system meritocracy it's about building a system whether it's in a nation or whether it's whether it's in a nation or whether it's whether it's in a nation or whether it's even within an organization that allows even within an organization that allows even within an organization that allows every individual to flourish and achieve every individual to flourish and achieve every individual to flourish and achieve the maximum of their potential and the maximum of their potential and the maximum of their potential and sometimes it just doesn't match for an sometimes it just doesn't match for an sometimes it just doesn't match for an organization where let's say the mission organization where let's say the mission organization where let's say the mission is here and somebody's skill sets could is here and somebody's skill sets could is here and somebody's skill sets could be really well aligned to a different be really well aligned to a different be really well aligned to a different mission mission mission then the right answer is it's not a then the right answer is it's not a then the right answer is it's not a negative thing it's just that that negative thing it's just that that negative thing it's just that that person needs to leave and find their person needs to leave and find their person needs to leave and find their mission somewhere else but to bring that mission somewhere else but to bring that mission somewhere else but to bring that back to government I think part of back to government I think part of back to government I think part of what's happened right now is that the what's happened right now is that the what's happened right now is that the rise of that bureaucracy in so many of rise of that bureaucracy in so many of rise of that bureaucracy in so many of these government agencies has actually these government agencies has actually these government agencies has actually obfuscated the mission of these agencies obfuscated the mission of these agencies obfuscated the mission of these agencies I I I think if you went to most federal I I I think if you went to most federal I I I think if you went to most federal bureaucracies and just asked him like bureaucracies and just asked him like bureaucracies and just asked him like what's the mission I'm just making one what's the mission I'm just making one what's the mission I'm just making one up off the top of my head right now the up off the top of my head right now the up off the top of my head right now the Department of Health and Human Services Department of Health and Human Services Department of Health and Human Services what is the mission of HHS in the United what is the mission of HHS in the United what is the mission of HHS in the United States of States of States of America I doubt somebody who works there America I doubt somebody who works there America I doubt somebody who works there even the person who leads it could give even the person who leads it could give even the person who leads it could give you a coherent answer to that question I you a coherent answer to that question I you a coherent answer to that question I I just I just heavily doubt it and you I just I just heavily doubt it and you I just I just heavily doubt it and you could fill in the blank for you know any could fill in the blank for you know any could fill in the blank for you know any range of the Department of Commerce I range of the Department of Commerce I range of the Department of Commerce I mean it could go straight down the list mean it could go straight down the list mean it could go straight down the list of each of these other ones what is the of each of these other ones what is the of each of these other ones what is the mission of this organization you can mission of this organization you can mission of this organization you can even say for the US military what's the even say for the US military what's the even say for the US military what's the purpose of the US military the purpose of the US military the purpose of the US military the Department of Defense I can give you one Department of Defense I can give you one Department of Defense I can give you one I think it is to win Wars and more I think it is to win Wars and more I think it is to win Wars and more importantly through its strength to importantly through its strength to importantly through its strength to avoid Wars that's it well okay if that's

avoid Wars that's it well okay if that's avoid Wars that's it well okay if that's the mission then you know okay it's not the mission then you know okay it's not the mission then you know okay it's not tinkering around and messing around in tinkering around and messing around in tinkering around and messing around in some foreign conflict where we kind of some foreign conflict where we kind of some foreign conflict where we kind of feel like it sometimes and other ones feel like it sometimes and other ones feel like it sometimes and other ones where we don't and who decides that I where we don't and who decides that I where we don't and who decides that I don't really know but whoever the people don't really know but whoever the people don't really know but whoever the people are that decide that we follow those are that decide that we follow those are that decide that we follow those orders no our mission is to protect the orders no our mission is to protect the orders no our mission is to protect the United States of America to win Wars and United States of America to win Wars and United States of America to win Wars and to avoid Wars boom those three things to avoid Wars boom those three things to avoid Wars boom those three things what does protecting the United States what does protecting the United States what does protecting the United States of America mean number one the homeland of America mean number one the homeland of America mean number one the homeland of the United States of America and the of the United States of America and the of the United States of America and the people who reside there okay that's a people who reside there okay that's a people who reside there okay that's a clear Mission I mean the Department of clear Mission I mean the Department of clear Mission I mean the Department of Health and Human Services maybe could be Health and Human Services maybe could be Health and Human Services maybe could be a reasonable mission to say that I want a reasonable mission to say that I want a reasonable mission to say that I want to make America the healthiest country to make America the healthiest country to make America the healthiest country on planet Earth and we will develop the on planet Earth and we will develop the on planet Earth and we will develop the metrics and meet those metrics and metrics and meet those metrics and metrics and meet those metrics and that's the goal of the Department of HHS that's the goal of the Department of HHS that's the goal of the Department of HHS to set policies or at least to implement to set policies or at least to implement to set policies or at least to implement policies that best achieve that goal but policies that best achieve that goal but policies that best achieve that goal but you can't and maybe that's the right you can't and maybe that's the right you can't and maybe that's the right statement of the mission maybe it's not statement of the mission maybe it's not statement of the mission maybe it's not but what one of the things that happens but what one of the things that happens but what one of the things that happens is when you're governed by the committee is when you're governed by the committee is when you're governed by the committee class it dilutes the sense of mission class it dilutes the sense of mission class it dilutes the sense of mission out of any organization whether it's a out of any organization whether it's a out of any organization whether it's a company or government agency or company or government agency or company or government agency or bureaucracy and once you've done that bureaucracy and once you've done that bureaucracy and once you've done that then you lose the ability to attract the then you lose the ability to attract the then you lose the ability to attract the best and the brightest because in order best and the brightest because in order best and the brightest because in order for somebody to achieve the maximum of for somebody to achieve the maximum of for somebody to achieve the maximum of their potential they have to know what their potential they have to know what their potential they have to know what it's towards there has to be a mission it's towards there has to be a mission it's towards there has to be a mission in the first place then you're not in the first place then you're not in the first place then you're not getting the best and brightest you get getting the best and brightest you get getting the best and brightest you get more from the committee class and that more from the committee class and that more from the committee class and that becomes a self-perpetuating downward becomes a self-perpetuating downward becomes a self-perpetuating downward spiral and that is what the blob of the spiral and that is what the blob of the spiral and that is what the blob of the federal bureaucracy really looks like federal bureaucracy really looks like federal bureaucracy really looks like today yeah you said something really today yeah you said something really today yeah you said something really profound at the individual scale of the profound at the individual scale of the profound at the individual scale of the individual contributor doer Creator what individual contributor doer Creator what individual contributor doer Creator what happens is you have a certain capacity happens is you have a certain capacity happens is you have a certain capacity to do awesome and then there's to do awesome and then there's to do awesome and then there's barriers that come up where you have to barriers that come up where you have to barriers that come up where you have to wait a little bit this happens there's

wait a little bit this happens there's wait a little bit this happens there's friction always in when humans together friction always in when humans together friction always in when humans together are working on something there's are working on something there's are working on something there's friction and so the the goal of a great friction and so the the goal of a great friction and so the the goal of a great company is to minimize that friction company is to minimize that friction company is to minimize that friction minimize the number of minimize the number of minimize the number of barriers and what happens is the barriers and what happens is the barriers and what happens is the managerial class the incentive is is for managerial class the incentive is is for managerial class the incentive is is for to create barriers that's what it does I to create barriers that's what it does I to create barriers that's what it does I mean that's just by the nature of a mean that's just by the nature of a mean that's just by the nature of a bureaucracy it creates sand in the gears bureaucracy it creates sand in the gears bureaucracy it creates sand in the gears to slow down whatever the other process to slow down whatever the other process to slow down whatever the other process was is there some room for that was is there some room for that was is there some room for that somewhere in certain context sure it's somewhere in certain context sure it's somewhere in certain context sure it's like a defensive mechanism that designed like a defensive mechanism that designed like a defensive mechanism that designed to reduce dynamism but I think when you to reduce dynamism but I think when you to reduce dynamism but I think when you when that becomes cancerous in its scope when that becomes cancerous in its scope when that becomes cancerous in its scope it then actually kills the host itself it then actually kills the host itself it then actually kills the host itself whether that's a school whether that's a whether that's a school whether that's a whether that's a school whether that's a company whether that's a government and company whether that's a government and company whether that's a government and so the way I think about it leex is so the way I think about it leex is so the way I think about it leex is there's a there sort of a balance of there's a there sort of a balance of there's a there sort of a balance of distributed power um I don't mean power distributed power um I don't mean power distributed power um I don't mean power in the in the Fuko sense of social power in the in the Fuko sense of social power in the in the Fuko sense of social power but I mean just sort of power in sense but I mean just sort of power in sense but I mean just sort of power in sense of the ability to affect relevant change of the ability to affect relevant change of the ability to affect relevant change and any organization between what you and any organization between what you and any organization between what you could call the founder class the Creator could call the founder class the Creator could call the founder class the Creator class the everyday citizen the class the everyday citizen the class the everyday citizen the stakeholder class and then the stakeholder class and then the stakeholder class and then the managerial class and there's a role for managerial class and there's a role for managerial class and there's a role for all three of them right you could have all three of them right you could have all three of them right you could have the constituents of an organization the constituents of an organization the constituents of an organization saying a constitutional republic that's saying a constitutional republic that's saying a constitutional republic that's the citizen you could have the the the citizen you could have the the the citizen you could have the the equivalent of the Creator class the equivalent of the Creator class the equivalent of the Creator class the people who create things in that that people who create things in that that people who create things in that that poity and then you have the bureaucratic poity and then you have the bureaucratic poity and then you have the bureaucratic class that's designed to administer and class that's designed to administer and class that's designed to administer and serve as a liaison between the two I'm serve as a liaison between the two I'm serve as a liaison between the two I'm not denying that there's some role not denying that there's some role not denying that there's some role somewhere for people who are in that

somewhere for people who are in that somewhere for people who are in that managerial class but right now in this managerial class but right now in this managerial class but right now in this moment in American history and I think moment in American history and I think moment in American history and I think it's been more or less true for the last it's been more or less true for the last it's been more or less true for the last century but it's grown starting with century but it's grown starting with century but it's grown starting with woodro Wilson's Advent of the modern woodro Wilson's Advent of the modern woodro Wilson's Advent of the modern administrative State metastasizing administrative State metastasizing administrative State metastasizing through FDR's New Deal and what was through FDR's New Deal and what was through FDR's New Deal and what was required to administer it blown over and required to administer it blown over and required to administer it blown over and and metastasizing further through lbj's and metastasizing further through lbj's and metastasizing further through lbj's Great Society and and everything that's Great Society and and everything that's Great Society and and everything that's happened since even aided and embedded happened since even aided and embedded happened since even aided and embedded by Republican presidents along the way by Republican presidents along the way by Republican presidents along the way like Richard Nixon has created a United like Richard Nixon has created a United like Richard Nixon has created a United States of America where that committee States of America where that committee States of America where that committee class both in and outside the government class both in and outside the government class both in and outside the government in our culture wields far too much in our culture wields far too much in our culture wields far too much influence and power relative to the influence and power relative to the influence and power relative to the everyday citizen stakeholder and to the everyday citizen stakeholder and to the everyday citizen stakeholder and to the creators who are in many ways creators who are in many ways creators who are in many ways constrained hamstr strong Shackled In a constrained hamstr strong Shackled In a constrained hamstr strong Shackled In a straight jacket from achieving the straight jacket from achieving the straight jacket from achieving the maximum of their own potential maximum of their own potential maximum of their own potential contributions and um you know I I I contributions and um you know I I I contributions and um you know I I I certainly feel that myself I you know I certainly feel that myself I you know I certainly feel that myself I you know I probably identify as being a member of probably identify as being a member of probably identify as being a member of that Creator class most closely this is that Creator class most closely this is that Creator class most closely this is what I've done I create things and I what I've done I create things and I what I've done I create things and I think we live in an environment in the think we live in an environment in the think we live in an environment in the United States of America where we're United States of America where we're United States of America where we're still probably the best country on Earth still probably the best country on Earth still probably the best country on Earth where that creator has that shot so where that creator has that shot so where that creator has that shot so that's the positive side of it but one that's the positive side of it but one that's the positive side of it but one where we are far more constrictive to where we are far more constrictive to where we are far more constrictive to the Creator class than we have been when the Creator class than we have been when the Creator class than we have been when we've been at our best and that's what I we've been at our best and that's what I we've been at our best and that's what I want to see change can you sort of Steal want to see change can you sort of Steal want to see change can you sort of Steal man the perspective of somebody that man the perspective of somebody that man the perspective of somebody that looks at a particular Department looks at a particular Department looks at a particular Department Department of Department of Department of Education and are saying that the amount Education and are saying that the amount Education and are saying that the amount of pain that would be caused by closing of pain that would be caused by closing of pain that would be caused by closing it and firing 75% of people will be too

it and firing 75% of people will be too it and firing 75% of people will be too much yeah so I go back to this question much yeah so I go back to this question much yeah so I go back to this question of mission right A lot of people who of mission right A lot of people who of mission right A lot of people who make Arguments for the Department of make Arguments for the Department of make Arguments for the Department of Education aren't aware why the Education aren't aware why the Education aren't aware why the Department of Education was created in Department of Education was created in Department of Education was created in the first place actually so that might the first place actually so that might the first place actually so that might be a useful place to start is that this be a useful place to start is that this be a useful place to start is that this thing was created it had a purpose thing was created it had a purpose thing was created it had a purpose presumably what was that purpose might presumably what was that purpose might presumably what was that purpose might be at least a relevant question to ask be at least a relevant question to ask be at least a relevant question to ask before we decide what are we doing with before we decide what are we doing with before we decide what are we doing with it or not what was the purpose of this it or not what was the purpose of this it or not what was the purpose of this thing that we created it's not thing that we created it's not thing that we created it's not a it to me seems to like a highly a it to me seems to like a highly a it to me seems to like a highly relevant question yet in this discussion relevant question yet in this discussion relevant question yet in this discussion about government reform it's interesting about government reform it's interesting about government reform it's interesting how eager people are to skip over that how eager people are to skip over that how eager people are to skip over that question and just to talk about okay but question and just to talk about okay but question and just to talk about okay but we got the status quo and it's just we got the status quo and it's just we got the status quo and it's just going to be disruptive versus asking the going to be disruptive versus asking the going to be disruptive versus asking the question of okay this institution was question of okay this institution was question of okay this institution was created it had an original purpose is created it had an original purpose is created it had an original purpose is that purpose still relevant is this that purpose still relevant is this that purpose still relevant is this organization at all fulfilling that organization at all fulfilling that organization at all fulfilling that purpose today to me those are some purpose today to me those are some purpose today to me those are some relevant questions to ask so let's talk relevant questions to ask so let's talk relevant questions to ask so let's talk about that for the Department of about that for the Department of about that for the Department of Education its purpose was relevant at Education its purpose was relevant at Education its purpose was relevant at that time which was to make sure that that time which was to make sure that that time which was to make sure that localities in particularly states were localities in particularly states were localities in particularly states were not siphoning dollars taxpayer dollars not siphoning dollars taxpayer dollars not siphoning dollars taxpayer dollars away from predominantly black school away from predominantly black school away from predominantly black school districts to predominantly white ones districts to predominantly white ones districts to predominantly white ones and that was not a theoretical concern and that was not a theoretical concern and that was not a theoretical concern at the time it was happening or there at the time it was happening or there at the time it was happening or there was at least some evidence that that was was at least some evidence that that was was at least some evidence that that was happening in certain states in the South happening in certain states in the South happening in certain states in the South and so you may say you don't like the and so you may say you don't like the and so you may say you don't like the federal solution you may say you like federal solution you may say you like federal solution you may say you like the federal solution but like it or not the federal solution but like it or not the federal solution but like it or not that was the original purpose of the US that was the original purpose of the US that was the original purpose of the US Department of Education to make sure Department of Education to make sure Department of Education to make sure that from a federal perspective states that from a federal perspective states that from a federal perspective states were not systematically disadvantaging

were not systematically disadvantaging were not systematically disadvantaging black school districts over black school districts over black school districts over predominantly white ones however Noble predominantly white ones however Noble predominantly white ones however Noble and relevant that purpose may have been and relevant that purpose may have been and relevant that purpose may have been six decades ago it's not a relevant six decades ago it's not a relevant six decades ago it's not a relevant purpose today there's no evidence today purpose today there's no evidence today purpose today there's no evidence today of States intentionally mapping out of States intentionally mapping out of States intentionally mapping out which are the black versus white school which are the black versus white school which are the black versus white school districts and siphoning money in One districts and siphoning money in One districts and siphoning money in One Direction versus another to the contrary Direction versus another to the contrary Direction versus another to the contrary one of the things we've learned is that one of the things we've learned is that one of the things we've learned is that the school districts in the inner city the school districts in the inner city the school districts in the inner city many of which are predominantly black many of which are predominantly black many of which are predominantly black actually spend more money per student actually spend more money per student actually spend more money per student than other school districts for a worse than other school districts for a worse than other school districts for a worse result as measured by test scores and result as measured by test scores and result as measured by test scores and other performance on a per student basis other performance on a per student basis other performance on a per student basis suggesting that there are other factors suggesting that there are other factors suggesting that there are other factors than the dollar expenditures per School than the dollar expenditures per School than the dollar expenditures per School determining Student Success and actually determining Student Success and actually determining Student Success and actually suggesting that even the overfunding of suggesting that even the overfunding of suggesting that even the overfunding of some of those already poorly run schools some of those already poorly run schools some of those already poorly run schools rewards them for their actual rewards them for their actual rewards them for their actual bureaucratic bureaucratic bureaucratic failures so against that backdrop the failures so against that backdrop the failures so against that backdrop the Department of Education has instead Department of Education has instead Department of Education has instead extra lated that original purpose of extra lated that original purpose of extra lated that original purpose of what was a racial equality purpose to what was a racial equality purpose to what was a racial equality purpose to instead Implement a different vision of instead Implement a different vision of instead Implement a different vision of racial Equity through the ideologies racial Equity through the ideologies racial Equity through the ideologies that they demand in the content of the that they demand in the content of the that they demand in the content of the curriculum that these public schools curriculum that these public schools curriculum that these public schools actually teach so Department of actually teach so Department of actually teach so Department of Education funding so Federal funding Education funding so Federal funding Education funding so Federal funding accounts for about you know giving you accounts for about you know giving you accounts for about you know giving you round numbers here but around 10% of the round numbers here but around 10% of the round numbers here but around 10% of the funding of most public schools across funding of most public schools across funding of most public schools across the country but that comes with strings the country but that comes with strings the country but that comes with strings attached so in today's Department of attached so in today's Department of attached so in today's Department of Education this didn't happen Back in Education this didn't happen Back in Education this didn't happen Back in 1970 but it's happening today ironically 1970 but it's happening today ironically 1970 but it's happening today ironically it's funny how these things change with it's funny how these things change with it's funny how these things change with the bureaucracies that fail they blow the bureaucracies that fail they blow the bureaucracies that fail they blow Oak smoke to cover up for their own Oak smoke to cover up for their own Oak smoke to cover up for their own failures what happens with today's

failures what happens with today's failures what happens with today's Department of Education they effectively Department of Education they effectively Department of Education they effectively say you don't get that funding unless say you don't get that funding unless say you don't get that funding unless you adopt certain goals deemed at you adopt certain goals deemed at you adopt certain goals deemed at achieving racial or gender Equity goals achieving racial or gender Equity goals achieving racial or gender Equity goals and in fact they also intervene in the and in fact they also intervene in the and in fact they also intervene in the curriculum where there's evidence of curriculum where there's evidence of curriculum where there's evidence of schools in the midwest or in the Great schools in the midwest or in the Great schools in the midwest or in the Great Plains that have been denied funding Plains that have been denied funding Plains that have been denied funding because Department of Education funding because Department of Education funding because Department of Education funding so long as they have certain subjects so long as they have certain subjects so long as they have certain subjects like archery there was one instance of a like archery there was one instance of a like archery there was one instance of a school that had archery in its school that had archery in its school that had archery in its curriculum I I find that to be pretty curriculum I I find that to be pretty curriculum I I find that to be pretty interesting actually I think that I interesting actually I think that I interesting actually I think that I think you have different kinds of think you have different kinds of think you have different kinds of physical education this is one that physical education this is one that physical education this is one that combines mental focus with physical combines mental focus with physical combines mental focus with physical aptitude but hey maybe I'm biased aptitude but hey maybe I'm biased aptitude but hey maybe I'm biased doesn't matter whether you like archery doesn't matter whether you like archery doesn't matter whether you like archery or not I don't think it's the federal or not I don't think it's the federal or not I don't think it's the federal government's job to withhold funding government's job to withhold funding government's job to withhold funding from a school because they include from a school because they include from a school because they include something in their curriculum that the something in their curriculum that the something in their curriculum that the federal government deems inappropriate federal government deems inappropriate federal government deems inappropriate where that locality found that to be a where that locality found that to be a where that locality found that to be a relevant locus of relevant locus of relevant locus of education so what you see then is an education so what you see then is an education so what you see then is an abandonment of the original purpose abandonment of the original purpose abandonment of the original purpose that's long passed you don't have this that's long passed you don't have this that's long passed you don't have this problem that the Department of Education problem that the Department of Education problem that the Department of Education was originally formed to solve of was originally formed to solve of was originally formed to solve of siphoning money from black school siphoning money from black school siphoning money from black school districts to white school districts and districts to white school districts and districts to white school districts and laundering that effectively in public laundering that effectively in public laundering that effectively in public funds that doesn't exist anymore so they funds that doesn't exist anymore so they funds that doesn't exist anymore so they find new purposes instead creating a lot find new purposes instead creating a lot find new purposes instead creating a lot more damage along the way so you asked more damage along the way so you asked more damage along the way so you asked me to steal man it and can I say me to steal man it and can I say me to steal man it and can I say something constructive rather than just something constructive rather than just something constructive rather than just you know pounding down on the other side you know pounding down on the other side you know pounding down on the other side one way to think about this is for a lot one way to think about this is for a lot one way to think about this is for a lot of these of these of these agencies were many of them formed with a agencies were many of them formed with a agencies were many of them formed with a positive intention at the outset positive intention at the outset positive intention at the outset yes where that positive intention yes where that positive intention yes where that positive intention existed I'm still a skeptic of creating

existed I'm still a skeptic of creating existed I'm still a skeptic of creating bureaucracies but if you're going to bureaucracies but if you're going to bureaucracies but if you're going to create one at least make create one at least make create one at least make it what should we call it uh a task it what should we call it uh a task it what should we call it uh a task force make it a task force a task force force make it a task force a task force force make it a task force a task force versus an agency means after it's done versus an agency means after it's done versus an agency means after it's done you celebrate you've done your work pat you celebrate you've done your work pat you celebrate you've done your work pat yourself on the back and then move on yourself on the back and then move on yourself on the back and then move on rather than creating a standing rather than creating a standing rather than creating a standing bureaucracy which actually finds things bureaucracy which actually finds things bureaucracy which actually finds things to do after it has already solved or to do after it has already solved or to do after it has already solved or addressed the first reason it was born addressed the first reason it was born addressed the first reason it was born in the first place and I think we don't in the first place and I think we don't in the first place and I think we don't have enough of that in our culture right have enough of that in our culture right have enough of that in our culture right I mean even if you have a company that's I mean even if you have a company that's I mean even if you have a company that's generated tons of cash flow and it's generated tons of cash flow and it's generated tons of cash flow and it's solved a problem let's say it's a let's solved a problem let's say it's a let's solved a problem let's say it's a let's say it's a biopharmaceutical company say it's a biopharmaceutical company say it's a biopharmaceutical company that developed a cure to some disease that developed a cure to some disease that developed a cure to some disease and the only thing people knew at that and the only thing people knew at that and the only thing people knew at that company was how to develop a cur to that company was how to develop a cur to that company was how to develop a cur to that disease and they generated a boatload of disease and they generated a boatload of disease and they generated a boatload of cash from doing it at a certain point cash from doing it at a certain point cash from doing it at a certain point you could just give it to your you could just give it to your you could just give it to your shareholders and closeup shop and that's shareholders and closeup shop and that's shareholders and closeup shop and that's actually a beautiful thing to do you actually a beautiful thing to do you actually a beautiful thing to do you don't see that happen enough in the don't see that happen enough in the don't see that happen enough in the American Consciousness and the American American Consciousness and the American American Consciousness and the American culture of when an institution has culture of when an institution has culture of when an institution has achieved its purpose celebrate it and achieved its purpose celebrate it and achieved its purpose celebrate it and then move on and I think that that then move on and I think that that then move on and I think that that culture in our government would result culture in our government would result culture in our government would result in a vastly restrained scope of in a vastly restrained scope of in a vastly restrained scope of government rather than today it's a government rather than today it's a government rather than today it's a one-way ratchet once you cause it to one-way ratchet once you cause it to one-way ratchet once you cause it to come into existence you cause new things come into existence you cause new things come into existence you cause new things to come into existence but the old one to come into existence but the old one to come into existence but the old one that came into existence continues to that came into existence continues to that came into existence continues to persist and exist as well and that's persist and exist as well and that's persist and exist as well and that's where you get this metastasis over the where you get this metastasis over the where you get this metastasis over the last century so what kind of things do last century so what kind of things do last century so what kind of things do you think government should do that the you think government should do that the you think government should do that the private sector the forces of capitalism private sector the forces of capitalism private sector the forces of capitalism would would create drastic inequalities would would create drastic inequalities would would create drastic inequalities or create the kind of pain we don't want or create the kind of pain we don't want or create the kind of pain we don't want to have in government so if the question to have in government so if the question to have in government so if the question is what should government do that the is what should government do that the is what should government do that the private sector cannot I'll give you on

private sector cannot I'll give you on private sector cannot I'll give you on protect our protect our protect our border I mean capitalism it's never border I mean capitalism it's never border I mean capitalism it's never going to be the job of capitalists or going to be the job of capitalists or going to be the job of capitalists or never going to be the capability or never going to be the capability or never going to be the capability or inclination of capitalists to preserve a inclination of capitalists to preserve a inclination of capitalists to preserve a national border and I think a nation national border and I think a nation national border and I think a nation it's literally uh I think one of the it's literally uh I think one of the it's literally uh I think one of the chapters of this book okay a nation chapters of this book okay a nation chapters of this book okay a nation Without Borders is not a nation it's Without Borders is not a nation it's Without Borders is not a nation it's almost a tipology an open border is not almost a tipology an open border is not almost a tipology an open border is not a border capitalism is not going to a border capitalism is not going to a border capitalism is not going to solve that what's going to solve that a solve that what's going to solve that a solve that what's going to solve that a nation part of the job of the federal nation part of the job of the federal nation part of the job of the federal government is to protect the homeland of government is to protect the homeland of government is to protect the homeland of its nation in this case the United its nation in this case the United its nation in this case the United States of America that's an example of a States of America that's an example of a States of America that's an example of a proper function of the federal proper function of the federal proper function of the federal government to provide physical security government to provide physical security government to provide physical security to its citizens another proper role of to its citizens another proper role of to its citizens another proper role of that federal government is to look after that federal government is to look after that federal government is to look after or or in this case could be state or or in this case could be state or or in this case could be state government to make sure that private government to make sure that private government to make sure that private parties cannot externalize their costs parties cannot externalize their costs parties cannot externalize their costs onto somebody else without their consent onto somebody else without their consent onto somebody else without their consent it's a fancy way economist would use to it's a fancy way economist would use to it's a fancy way economist would use to describe it what does that mean means if describe it what does that mean means if describe it what does that mean means if you go dump your chemicals in somebody you go dump your chemicals in somebody you go dump your chemicals in somebody else's River then you're liable for that else's River then you're liable for that else's River then you're liable for that it's not that okay I'm a capitalist and it's not that okay I'm a capitalist and it's not that okay I'm a capitalist and so I want to create things and I'm going so I want to create things and I'm going so I want to create things and I'm going to do hell or high water whether or not to do hell or high water whether or not to do hell or high water whether or not that harms people around me the job of a that harms people around me the job of a that harms people around me the job of a proper government is to make sure that proper government is to make sure that proper government is to make sure that you protect the rights of those who may you protect the rights of those who may you protect the rights of those who may be harmed by those who are pursuing be harmed by those who are pursuing be harmed by those who are pursuing their own rights through a system of their own rights through a system of their own rights through a system of capitalism in seeking Prosperity you're capitalism in seeking Prosperity you're capitalism in seeking Prosperity you're free to do it but if you're hurting free to do it but if you're hurting free to do it but if you're hurting somebody else without their consent in somebody else without their consent in somebody else without their consent in the process the government is there to the process the government is there to the process the government is there to enforce what is really just a different enforce what is really just a different enforce what is really just a different form of enforcing a private property form of enforcing a private property form of enforcing a private property right so I would say that those are two right so I would say that those are two right so I would say that those are two Central functions of government is to Central functions of government is to Central functions of government is to preserve National boundaries and the

preserve National boundaries and the preserve National boundaries and the National Security of a Homeland and National Security of a Homeland and National Security of a Homeland and number two is to protect and preserve number two is to protect and preserve number two is to protect and preserve private property rights and the private property rights and the private property rights and the enforcement of those private property enforcement of those private property enforcement of those private property rights and I think at that point you've rights and I think at that point you've rights and I think at that point you've described about 80 to 90% of the proper described about 80 to 90% of the proper described about 80 to 90% of the proper role of a government what about role of a government what about role of a government what about infrastructure look I think that most infrastructure look I think that most infrastructure look I think that most infrastructure can be dealt with through infrastructure can be dealt with through infrastructure can be dealt with through the private sector I mean you can get the private sector I mean you can get the private sector I mean you can get into specifics you could infrastructure into specifics you could infrastructure into specifics you could infrastructure that's specific to National Security no that's specific to National Security no that's specific to National Security no I do think that military-industrial base I do think that military-industrial base I do think that military-industrial base is essential to provide National is essential to provide National is essential to provide National Security that's a form of infrastructure Security that's a form of infrastructure Security that's a form of infrastructure I don't think you could rely exclusively I don't think you could rely exclusively I don't think you could rely exclusively on the private sector to provide the on the private sector to provide the on the private sector to provide the optimal level of that protection to a optimal level of that protection to a optimal level of that protection to a nation but you know interstate highways nation but you know interstate highways nation but you know interstate highways you know I think you could think about you know I think you could think about you know I think you could think about whether or not that's a common good that whether or not that's a common good that whether or not that's a common good that everybody benefits from but nobody has everybody benefits from but nobody has everybody benefits from but nobody has the incentive to create I think you the incentive to create I think you the incentive to create I think you could make an argument for the existence could make an argument for the existence could make an argument for the existence of of interstate highways I think you of of interstate highways I think you of of interstate highways I think you could also make powerful Arguments for could also make powerful Arguments for could also make powerful Arguments for the fact that actually you could have the fact that actually you could have the fact that actually you could have have enough private sector co-ops that have enough private sector co-ops that have enough private sector co-ops that could cause that to come into existence could cause that to come into existence could cause that to come into existence as well but you know I'm not going to be as well but you know I'm not going to be as well but you know I'm not going to be I'm not I'm not U dogmatic about this I'm not I'm not U dogmatic about this I'm not I'm not U dogmatic about this but broadly speaking 80 to 90% of the but broadly speaking 80 to 90% of the but broadly speaking 80 to 90% of the goal of the federal government I'm not goal of the federal government I'm not goal of the federal government I'm not going to say 100 80 to 90% of the goal going to say 100 80 to 90% of the goal going to say 100 80 to 90% of the goal of the existence of a federal government of the existence of a federal government of the existence of a federal government should be to of government period should should be to of government period should should be to of government period should be to protect National boundaries and be to protect National boundaries and be to protect National boundaries and provide security for the people who live provide security for the people who live provide security for the people who live there and to protect the private there and to protect the private there and to protect the private property rights of the people who reside property rights of the people who reside property rights of the people who reside there if we restore that I think we well there if we restore that I think we well there if we restore that I think we well on our way to a Revival of what our on our way to a Revival of what our on our way to a Revival of what our founding fathers envisioned and I think founding fathers envisioned and I think founding fathers envisioned and I think many of them would give you the same many of them would give you the same many of them would give you the same answer that I just did so if we get answer that I just did so if we get answer that I just did so if we get government out of Education would you be

government out of Education would you be government out of Education would you be also for reducing the size of government also for reducing the size of government also for reducing the size of government in the states for educ for something in the states for educ for something in the states for educ for something like I here if it goes closer to like I here if it goes closer to like I here if it goes closer to municipalities and States I'm fine with municipalities and States I'm fine with municipalities and States I'm fine with that being a locust for people that being a locust for people that being a locust for people determining as for example let's just determining as for example let's just determining as for example let's just say school districts are taxed at the say school districts are taxed at the say school districts are taxed at the local level for that to be a matter for local level for that to be a matter for local level for that to be a matter for municipalities and townships to actually municipalities and townships to actually municipalities and townships to actually decide democratically how they actually decide democratically how they actually decide democratically how they actually want that govern whether it's balance want that govern whether it's balance want that govern whether it's balance between a public school district versus between a public school district versus between a public school district versus making that same money available to making that same money available to making that same money available to families in the form of vouchers or families in the form of vouchers or families in the form of vouchers or other forms of of ability to educational other forms of of ability to educational other forms of of ability to educational savings accounts or whichever mechanism savings accounts or whichever mechanism savings accounts or whichever mechanism it is to opt out of that if that's done it is to opt out of that if that's done it is to opt out of that if that's done locally I'll have views on that that locally I'll have views on that that locally I'll have views on that that tend to go further in the direction of tend to go further in the direction of tend to go further in the direction of true educational choice and diversity of true educational choice and diversity of true educational choice and diversity of choice the implementation of charter choice the implementation of charter choice the implementation of charter schools the granting of State Charters schools the granting of State Charters schools the granting of State Charters or even lowering the barriers to or even lowering the barriers to or even lowering the barriers to granting one I favor those kinds of granting one I favor those kinds of granting one I favor those kinds of policies but if we've gotten the federal policies but if we've gotten the federal policies but if we've gotten the federal government out of it that's achieved 75% government out of it that's achieved 75% government out of it that's achieved 75% of what I think we need to achieve that of what I think we need to achieve that of what I think we need to achieve that I'm focused on solving other problems I'm focused on solving other problems I'm focused on solving other problems and leave that to the states and and leave that to the states and and leave that to the states and municipalities to to cover from there so municipalities to to cover from there so municipalities to to cover from there so given this conversation uh what do you given this conversation uh what do you given this conversation uh what do you think of elon's proposal of the think of elon's proposal of the think of elon's proposal of the Department of government efficiency in Department of government efficiency in Department of government efficiency in in the uh Trump Administration or really in the uh Trump Administration or really in the uh Trump Administration or really any Administration I'm I'm uh of course any Administration I'm I'm uh of course any Administration I'm I'm uh of course biased because El and I had discussed biased because El and I had discussed biased because El and I had discussed that for the better part of the last that for the better part of the last that for the better part of the last year and a half and so I think it's a year and a half and so I think it's a year and a half and so I think it's a great idea it's something that's very great idea it's something that's very great idea it's something that's very consistent with the core premise of my consistent with the core premise of my consistent with the core premise of my presidential candidacy I got to know him presidential candidacy I got to know him presidential candidacy I got to know him as I was running for US president in a as I was running for US president in a as I was running for US president in a couple of events that he came to and

couple of events that he came to and couple of events that he came to and then we built a friendship after that so then we built a friendship after that so then we built a friendship after that so obviously I think it's a great idea who obviously I think it's a great idea who obviously I think it's a great idea who do you think is more hardcore on The do you think is more hardcore on The do you think is more hardcore on The Cutting you or Elon well I think uh Elon Cutting you or Elon well I think uh Elon Cutting you or Elon well I think uh Elon is elon's pretty hardcore um I I said is elon's pretty hardcore um I I said is elon's pretty hardcore um I I said 75% of the federal bureaucrats and while 75% of the federal bureaucrats and while 75% of the federal bureaucrats and while I was running for president he said you I was running for president he said you I was running for president he said you need to put at least 75 % so so I agree need to put at least 75 % so so I agree need to put at least 75 % so so I agree with him I think I would U I think it'd with him I think I would U I think it'd with him I think I would U I think it'd be a fun competition to see who ends up be a fun competition to see who ends up be a fun competition to see who ends up who ends up more hardcore I think he I who ends up more hardcore I think he I who ends up more hardcore I think he I don't think there's someone out there don't think there's someone out there don't think there's someone out there who's going to be more hardcore than who's going to be more hardcore than who's going to be more hardcore than here I would be and the reason is I here I would be and the reason is I here I would be and the reason is I think we're both we share in think we're both we share in think we're both we share in common a willingness to take the risk common a willingness to take the risk common a willingness to take the risk and see what happens I mean the sun will and see what happens I mean the sun will and see what happens I mean the sun will still rise in the east and set in the still rise in the east and set in the still rise in the east and set in the west that much I guarantee you is there west that much I guarantee you is there west that much I guarantee you is there going to be some broken glass and some going to be some broken glass and some going to be some broken glass and some damage yes there is there's no way damage yes there is there's no way damage yes there is there's no way around that but once you willing to take around that but once you willing to take around that but once you willing to take that risk then it doesn't become so that risk then it doesn't become so that risk then it doesn't become so scary anymore and and here's the thing scary anymore and and here's the thing scary anymore and and here's the thing Lex it's so it's easy to say this let's Lex it's so it's easy to say this let's Lex it's so it's easy to say this let's talk about where the rubber hits the talk about where the rubber hits the talk about where the rubber hits the road here even in even in second Trump road here even in even in second Trump road here even in even in second Trump term this would be you know the term this would be you know the term this would be you know the discussion president Trump and I had discussion president Trump and I had discussion president Trump and I had this conversation but I think we would this conversation but I think we would this conversation but I think we would continue to have this conversation continue to have this conversation continue to have this conversation is where does it rank on our is where does it rank on our is where does it rank on our prioritization list because there's prioritization list because there's prioritization list because there's always going to be a always going to be a always going to be a trade-off if you have a different policy trade-off if you have a different policy trade-off if you have a different policy objective that you want to achieve a objective that you want to achieve a objective that you want to achieve a good policy objective whatever that is good policy objective whatever that is good policy objective whatever that is right you could talk about immigration right you could talk about immigration right you could talk about immigration policy you could talk about Economic policy you could talk about Economic policy you could talk about Economic Policy there are other policy Policy there are other policy Policy there are other policy objectives you're going to trade off a objectives you're going to trade off a objectives you're going to trade off a little bit in the short run the little bit in the short run the little bit in the short run the effectiveness of your ability to carry

effectiveness of your ability to carry effectiveness of your ability to carry out that policy goal if you're also out that policy goal if you're also out that policy goal if you're also committed to actually thinning out the committed to actually thinning out the committed to actually thinning out the federal government by 75% because federal government by 75% because federal government by 75% because there's just going to be some clunkiness there's just going to be some clunkiness there's just going to be some clunkiness right and there's just going to be right and there's just going to be right and there's just going to be frictional costs for that level of cut frictional costs for that level of cut frictional costs for that level of cut so the question is where does that rank so the question is where does that rank so the question is where does that rank on your prioritization list to pull that on your prioritization list to pull that on your prioritization list to pull that off to pull off a 75% reduction in the off to pull off a 75% reduction in the off to pull off a 75% reduction in the size and scale of the federal government size and scale of the federal government size and scale of the federal government the regulatory State and the the regulatory State and the the regulatory State and the headcount I think that only happens if headcount I think that only happens if headcount I think that only happens if that's your top priority you could do it that's your top priority you could do it that's your top priority you could do it at a smaller scale but at that scale it at a smaller scale but at that scale it at a smaller scale but at that scale it only happens if that's your top priority only happens if that's your top priority only happens if that's your top priority because then as president you're in a because then as president you're in a because then as president you're in a position to say I know in the super position to say I know in the super position to say I know in the super short run that might even make it a short run that might even make it a short run that might even make it a little bit harder for me to do this little bit harder for me to do this little bit harder for me to do this other thing that I want to do and use other thing that I want to do and use other thing that I want to do and use the regulatory state to do it but I'm the regulatory state to do it but I'm the regulatory state to do it but I'm going to pass on that I'm going to pass going to pass on that I'm going to pass going to pass on that I'm going to pass that up I'm going to bear that hardship that up I'm going to bear that hardship that up I'm going to bear that hardship and inconvenience because I know this and inconvenience because I know this and inconvenience because I know this other goal goal is more important on the other goal goal is more important on the other goal goal is more important on the scale of decades and centuries for the scale of decades and centuries for the scale of decades and centuries for the country so it's a question of country so it's a question of country so it's a question of prioritization and and certainly my own prioritization and and certainly my own prioritization and and certainly my own view is that now is a moment where that view is that now is a moment where that view is that now is a moment where that needs to be a top priority for saving needs to be a top priority for saving needs to be a top priority for saving this country and you if there's one this country and you if there's one this country and you if there's one thing about my campaign I was if I was thing about my campaign I was if I was thing about my campaign I was if I was to do it to do it to do it again I would be even clearer about again I would be even clearer about again I would be even clearer about because I talked about a lot of things because I talked about a lot of things because I talked about a lot of things in the campaign and we can cover a lot in the campaign and we can cover a lot in the campaign and we can cover a lot of that too but if there's one thing of that too but if there's one thing of that too but if there's one thing that I care about more than anything that I care about more than anything that I care about more than anything else is dismantling that bureaucracy and else is dismantling that bureaucracy and else is dismantling that bureaucracy and more moreover it is more moreover it is more moreover it is a it's an assault and a crusade on the a it's an assault and a crusade on the a it's an assault and a crusade on the nanny State itself and that Nanny State nanny State itself and that Nanny State nanny State itself and that Nanny State presents itself in several forms there's presents itself in several forms there's presents itself in several forms there's the entitlement State that's the welfare

the entitlement State that's the welfare the entitlement State that's the welfare state presents itself in the form of the state presents itself in the form of the state presents itself in the form of the regulatory State that's what we're regulatory State that's what we're regulatory State that's what we're talking about and then there's the talking about and then there's the talking about and then there's the foreign Nanny state where effectively we foreign Nanny state where effectively we foreign Nanny state where effectively we are subsidizing other countries that are subsidizing other countries that are subsidizing other countries that aren't paying their fair share of aren't paying their fair share of aren't paying their fair share of protection or other resources we provide protection or other resources we provide protection or other resources we provide them if I was to summarize my ideology them if I was to summarize my ideology them if I was to summarize my ideology in a nutshell it is to terminate The in a nutshell it is to terminate The in a nutshell it is to terminate The Nanny state in the United States of Nanny state in the United States of Nanny state in the United States of America in all of its forms the America in all of its forms the America in all of its forms the entitlement State the regulatory State entitlement State the regulatory State entitlement State the regulatory State and the foreign policy in any state once and the foreign policy in any state once and the foreign policy in any state once we've done that we've revived the we've done that we've revived the we've done that we've revived the Republic that I think would make George Republic that I think would make George Republic that I think would make George Washington Washington Washington proud so you mentioned Department of proud so you mentioned Department of proud so you mentioned Department of Education but there's also the Education but there's also the Education but there's also the Department of Defense yeah and there's a Department of Defense yeah and there's a Department of Defense yeah and there's a very large number of very powerful very large number of very powerful very large number of very powerful people that have gotten used to and a people that have gotten used to and a people that have gotten used to and a budget that's increasing mhm and the budget that's increasing mhm and the budget that's increasing mhm and the number of wars and military conflicts number of wars and military conflicts number of wars and military conflicts that's increasing so if we could just that's increasing so if we could just that's increasing so if we could just talk about that so this is the number talk about that so this is the number talk about that so this is the number one one one priority it's like uh there's difficulty priority it's like uh there's difficulty priority it's like uh there's difficulty levels here the levels here the levels here the dod uh would be probably the hardest so dod uh would be probably the hardest so dod uh would be probably the hardest so let's take that on what's what's your let's take that on what's what's your let's take that on what's what's your view on uh the military industrial view on uh the military industrial view on uh the military industrial complex Department of Defense and wars complex Department of Defense and wars complex Department of Defense and wars in general so I think the I said the in general so I think the I said the in general so I think the I said the nanny state I'm against it overall I'm nanny state I'm against it overall I'm nanny state I'm against it overall I'm against the foreign policy Nanny State against the foreign policy Nanny State against the foreign policy Nanny State as well let's let me start from that as as well let's let me start from that as as well let's let me start from that as the starting off point then I'll tell the starting off point then I'll tell the starting off point then I'll tell you about my views on the dod and our you about my views on the dod and our you about my views on the dod and our defense first of all I I think that and defense first of all I I think that and defense first of all I I think that and and I think that it was easy for many and I think that it was easy for many and I think that it was easy for many people from the neocon school of thought people from the neocon school of thought people from the neocon school of thought to caricature My Views with the media at

to caricature My Views with the media at to caricature My Views with the media at their side but actually my own view is their side but actually my own view is their side but actually my own view is if it's in the interest of the United if it's in the interest of the United if it's in the interest of the United States of America to provide certain States of America to provide certain States of America to provide certain levels of protection to us allies we can levels of protection to us allies we can levels of protection to us allies we can do that as long as those allies actually do that as long as those allies actually do that as long as those allies actually pay for it and I think that's important pay for it and I think that's important pay for it and I think that's important for two reasons the less important for two reasons the less important for two reasons the less important reason still important reason the less reason still important reason the less reason still important reason the less important reason is it's still money for important reason is it's still money for important reason is it's still money for us right it's not like we're swimming in us right it's not like we're swimming in us right it's not like we're swimming in a cash Surplus right now we're at $34 a cash Surplus right now we're at $34 a cash Surplus right now we're at $34 trillion national debt and growing and trillion national debt and growing and trillion national debt and growing and you know I think pretty soon the you know I think pretty soon the you know I think pretty soon the interest payments are going to be the interest payments are going to be the interest payments are going to be the largest line item in our own federal largest line item in our own federal largest line item in our own federal budget so it's not like we have money budget so it's not like we have money budget so it's not like we have money willing Illy to just hand over for free willing Illy to just hand over for free willing Illy to just hand over for free that's the less important reason though that's the less important reason though that's the less important reason though the more important reason is that it the more important reason is that it the more important reason is that it makes sure that our makes sure that our makes sure that our allies have actual skin in the game to allies have actual skin in the game to allies have actual skin in the game to not have skewed incentives to actually not have skewed incentives to actually not have skewed incentives to actually enter conflicts where they're not enter conflicts where they're not enter conflicts where they're not actually bearing the full cost of those actually bearing the full cost of those actually bearing the full cost of those conflicts so take NATO for example most conflicts so take NATO for example most conflicts so take NATO for example most NATO countries literally a majority of NATO countries literally a majority of NATO countries literally a majority of NATO countries today do not pay or NATO countries today do not pay or NATO countries today do not pay or contribute 2% of their GDP to their own contribute 2% of their GDP to their own contribute 2% of their GDP to their own National Defense which is supposedly a National Defense which is supposedly a National Defense which is supposedly a requirement to be in NATO so majority of requirement to be in NATO so majority of requirement to be in NATO so majority of NATO countries are failing to meet their NATO countries are failing to meet their NATO countries are failing to meet their basic commitment to be nato in the first basic commitment to be nato in the first basic commitment to be nato in the first place Germany particularly is I think place Germany particularly is I think place Germany particularly is I think Arbitrage the hell out of the United Arbitrage the hell out of the United Arbitrage the hell out of the United States of America and I don't think that States of America and I don't think that States of America and I don't think that the I'm not going to be some sort of you the I'm not going to be some sort of you the I'm not going to be some sort of you know shrill voice here saying so know shrill voice here saying so know shrill voice here saying so therefore we should not be supporting therefore we should not be supporting therefore we should not be supporting any allies or providing security any allies or providing security any allies or providing security blankets no I'm not I'm not going in

blankets no I'm not I'm not going in blankets no I'm not I'm not going in that direction what I would say is you that direction what I would say is you that direction what I would say is you got to pay for it right pay for your got to pay for it right pay for your got to pay for it right pay for your Fisher a because we're not swimming in Fisher a because we're not swimming in Fisher a because we're not swimming in excess money ourselves but B is it tells excess money ourselves but B is it tells excess money ourselves but B is it tells us that you actually have skin in the us that you actually have skin in the us that you actually have skin in the game for your own defense which actually game for your own defense which actually game for your own defense which actually then makes Nations far more prudent in then makes Nations far more prudent in then makes Nations far more prudent in the risks that they take whether not the the risks that they take whether not the the risks that they take whether not the end of War versus if somebody else is end of War versus if somebody else is end of War versus if somebody else is paying for it and somebody else is paying for it and somebody else is paying for it and somebody else is providing our security guarantee hey providing our security guarantee hey providing our security guarantee hey again might as well you know take the again might as well you know take the again might as well you know take the Gamble and see where I end up at the end Gamble and see where I end up at the end Gamble and see where I end up at the end of a war versus the restraint that that of a war versus the restraint that that of a war versus the restraint that that imposes on the decision-making of those imposes on the decision-making of those imposes on the decision-making of those allies so now let's bring this bring allies so now let's bring this bring allies so now let's bring this bring this home to the Department of Defense I this home to the Department of Defense I this home to the Department of Defense I think the top goal of the US defense think the top goal of the US defense think the top goal of the US defense policy establishment should be to policy establishment should be to policy establishment should be to provide for the National Defense of the provide for the National Defense of the provide for the National Defense of the United States of America and the irony United States of America and the irony United States of America and the irony is that's what we're actually doing most is that's what we're actually doing most is that's what we're actually doing most poorly we're not really using other than poorly we're not really using other than poorly we're not really using other than the Coast Guard we're not really using the Coast Guard we're not really using the Coast Guard we're not really using the US military to prevent Crossings at the US military to prevent Crossings at the US military to prevent Crossings at our own Southern border and Crossings at our own Southern border and Crossings at our own Southern border and Crossings at our other borders in fact the United our other borders in fact the United our other borders in fact the United States of America our homeland I believe States of America our homeland I believe States of America our homeland I believe is less secure today than it has been in is less secure today than it has been in is less secure today than it has been in a very long time vulnerable to threats a very long time vulnerable to threats a very long time vulnerable to threats from Hypersonic missiles where China and from Hypersonic missiles where China and from Hypersonic missiles where China and Russia Russia certainly has capabilities Russia Russia certainly has capabilities Russia Russia certainly has capabilities in excess of that of the United States in excess of that of the United States in excess of that of the United States missiles Hypersonic means faster than missiles Hypersonic means faster than missiles Hypersonic means faster than the speed of sound that could hit the the speed of sound that could hit the the speed of sound that could hit the United States including those carrying United States including those carrying United States including those carrying nuclear warheads we are more vulnerable nuclear warheads we are more vulnerable nuclear warheads we are more vulnerable to Super EMP attacks electromagnetic to Super EMP attacks electromagnetic to Super EMP attacks electromagnetic pulse attacks that could you know pulse attacks that could you know pulse attacks that could you know without exaggeration some of this could without exaggeration some of this could without exaggeration some of this could be from other nations some of this could be from other nations some of this could be from other nations some of this could even be from solar flares cause even be from solar flares cause even be from solar flares cause significant mass casualty in the United significant mass casualty in the United significant mass casualty in the United States of America the electric Grid's

States of America the electric Grid's States of America the electric Grid's gone it's not an exaggeration to say if gone it's not an exaggeration to say if gone it's not an exaggeration to say if that happened planes would be falling that happened planes would be falling that happened planes would be falling out of the sky because our chips really out of the sky because our chips really out of the sky because our chips really depend on those electromag well would be depend on those electromag well would be depend on those electromag well would be affected by those electromagnetic pulses affected by those electromagnetic pulses affected by those electromagnetic pulses more vulnerable to cyber attacks I know more vulnerable to cyber attacks I know more vulnerable to cyber attacks I know this oh people okay start yawning and this oh people okay start yawning and this oh people okay start yawning and say okay boring stuff super P cyber say okay boring stuff super P cyber say okay boring stuff super P cyber whatever now actually it is pretty whatever now actually it is pretty whatever now actually it is pretty relevant to whether or not you actually relevant to whether or not you actually relevant to whether or not you actually are facing the risk of not getting your are facing the risk of not getting your are facing the risk of not getting your insulin because your refrigerator insulin because your refrigerator insulin because your refrigerator doesn't work anymore or your food can't doesn't work anymore or your food can't doesn't work anymore or your food can't be stored or your car or your or your be stored or your car or your or your be stored or your car or your or your ability to fly in an airplane is ability to fly in an airplane is ability to fly in an airplane is impaired okay so I think that these are impaired okay so I think that these are impaired okay so I think that these are serious risks where our own National serious risks where our own National serious risks where our own National defense spending has been wholly defense spending has been wholly defense spending has been wholly inadequate so I'm not one of these inadequate so I'm not one of these inadequate so I'm not one of these people that says oh we decrease versus people that says oh we decrease versus people that says oh we decrease versus increase National defense spending we're increase National defense spending we're increase National defense spending we're not spending it in the right places the not spending it in the right places the not spending it in the right places the number one place we need to be spending number one place we need to be spending number one place we need to be spending it is actually in protecting our it is actually in protecting our it is actually in protecting our National Defense and I think protecting National Defense and I think protecting National Defense and I think protecting our own physical Homeland and I think we our own physical Homeland and I think we our own physical Homeland and I think we actually need an increase in spending on actually need an increase in spending on actually need an increase in spending on protecting our own Homeland but that is protecting our own Homeland but that is protecting our own Homeland but that is different from the agenda of foreign different from the agenda of foreign different from the agenda of foreign interventionism and foreign Nanny State interventionism and foreign Nanny State interventionism and foreign Nanny State ISM for its own sake where we should ISM for its own sake where we should ISM for its own sake where we should expect more and demand more of our expect more and demand more of our expect more and demand more of our allies to provide for their own National allies to provide for their own National allies to provide for their own National Defense and then provide the relevant Defense and then provide the relevant Defense and then provide the relevant security guarantees to allies where that security guarantees to allies where that security guarantees to allies where that actually advances the interest of the actually advances the interest of the actually advances the interest of the United States of America so that's what United States of America so that's what United States of America so that's what I believe and you know I think this I believe and you know I think this I believe and you know I think this process has been corrupted by what D process has been corrupted by what D process has been corrupted by what D Eisenhower famously in his farewell Eisenhower famously in his farewell Eisenhower famously in his farewell address called the military-industrial address called the military-industrial address called the military-industrial complex in the United States but I think complex in the United States but I think complex in the United States but I think it's it's bigger than just the you know it's it's bigger than just the you know it's it's bigger than just the you know I think it's easy to tell the tales of I think it's easy to tell the tales of I think it's easy to tell the tales of the financial corruption it's a kind of the financial corruption it's a kind of the financial corruption it's a kind of cultural corruption and conceit that

cultural corruption and conceit that cultural corruption and conceit that just because certain number of people in just because certain number of people in just because certain number of people in that expert class have a belief that that expert class have a belief that that expert class have a belief that their belief happens to be the right one their belief happens to be the right one their belief happens to be the right one because they can scare you with what the because they can scare you with what the because they can scare you with what the consequence would be if you don't follow consequence would be if you don't follow consequence would be if you don't follow their their their advice and one of the beauties of the advice and one of the beauties of the advice and one of the beauties of the United States is at least in principle United States is at least in principle United States is at least in principle we have civilian control of the military we have civilian control of the military we have civilian control of the military the person who we elect to be the US the person who we elect to be the US the person who we elect to be the US president is the one that actually is president is the one that actually is president is the one that actually is the true commander-in-chief I I have my the true commander-in-chief I I have my the true commander-in-chief I I have my doubts of whether it operates that way I doubts of whether it operates that way I doubts of whether it operates that way I think it is quite obvious that Joe Biden think it is quite obvious that Joe Biden think it is quite obvious that Joe Biden is not a functioning commander-in-chief is not a functioning commander-in-chief is not a functioning commander-in-chief of the United States of America yet on of the United States of America yet on of the United States of America yet on paper supposedly we still are supposed paper supposedly we still are supposed paper supposedly we still are supposed to call him to call him to call him that but at least in theory we're that but at least in theory we're that but at least in theory we're supposed to have civilian control of the supposed to have civilian control of the supposed to have civilian control of the US US US Military and I think that one of the Military and I think that one of the Military and I think that one of the things that that leader needs to do is things that that leader needs to do is things that that leader needs to do is to ask the question of again the mission to ask the question of again the mission to ask the question of again the mission what's the purpose of this US military what's the purpose of this US military what's the purpose of this US military in the first place at the top of the in the first place at the top of the in the first place at the top of the list should be to protect the Homeland list should be to protect the Homeland list should be to protect the Homeland and the people who actually live here and the people who actually live here and the people who actually live here which we're failing to do so that's which we're failing to do so that's which we're failing to do so that's where I land on that question wait okay where I land on that question wait okay where I land on that question wait okay there's a lot of stuff to ask first of there's a lot of stuff to ask first of there's a lot of stuff to ask first of all on Joe Biden you mean he's all on Joe Biden you mean he's all on Joe Biden you mean he's functionally not in control of the US functionally not in control of the US functionally not in control of the US military because of the age factor or military because of the age factor or military because of the age factor or because of the nature of the presidency because of the nature of the presidency because of the nature of the presidency it's a good question I would say in his it's a good question I would say in his it's a good question I would say in his case it's particularly accentuated case it's particularly accentuated case it's particularly accentuated because it's because it's because it's both in his case I don't think anybody both in his case I don't think anybody both in his case I don't think anybody in America anymore believes that Joe in America anymore believes that Joe in America anymore believes that Joe Biden is the functioning president of Biden is the functioning president of Biden is the functioning president of the United States of America how could the United States of America how could the United States of America how could he be he wasn't even sufficiently he be he wasn't even sufficiently he be he wasn't even sufficiently functioning to be the candidate after a functioning to be the candidate after a functioning to be the candidate after a debate that was held in June there's no debate that was held in June there's no debate that was held in June there's no way he's going to be in a position to way he's going to be in a position to way he's going to be in a position to make the most important decisions on a make the most important decisions on a make the most important decisions on a daily and demanding basis to protect the daily and demanding basis to protect the daily and demanding basis to protect the leading nation in the

leading nation in the leading nation in the world now more generally though I think world now more generally though I think world now more generally though I think we have a deeper problem that even when we have a deeper problem that even when we have a deeper problem that even when it's not Joe it's not Joe it's not Joe Biden in general the people we elect to Biden in general the people we elect to Biden in general the people we elect to run the government haven't really been run the government haven't really been run the government haven't really been the ones running the government it's the ones running the government it's the ones running the government it's been the unelected Bure bureaucrats and been the unelected Bure bureaucrats and been the unelected Bure bureaucrats and the bureaucratic deep State underneath the bureaucratic deep State underneath the bureaucratic deep State underneath that's really been making the decisions that's really been making the decisions that's really been making the decisions I um so I've done business in a number I um so I've done business in a number I um so I've done business in a number of places I've traveled to Japan there's of places I've traveled to Japan there's of places I've traveled to Japan there's an interesting corporate an interesting corporate an interesting corporate analogy sometimes you get out if you get analogy sometimes you get out if you get analogy sometimes you get out if you get outside of politics people can I find um outside of politics people can I find um outside of politics people can I find um listen and pay attention a little bit listen and pay attention a little bit listen and pay attention a little bit more because of politics is so fraught more because of politics is so fraught more because of politics is so fraught right now that if you start talking to right now that if you start talking to right now that if you start talking to somebody who disagrees with you about somebody who disagrees with you about somebody who disagrees with you about the politics of it you're just butting the politics of it you're just butting the politics of it you're just butting heads but not really making progress so heads but not really making progress so heads but not really making progress so let's just make the same point but go let's just make the same point but go let's just make the same point but go outside of politics for a second so I outside of politics for a second so I outside of politics for a second so I was traveling in Japan I was having a was traveling in Japan I was having a was traveling in Japan I was having a late night dinner with a CEO of a late night dinner with a CEO of a late night dinner with a CEO of a Japanese pharmaceutical company and you Japanese pharmaceutical company and you Japanese pharmaceutical company and you know it takes a while to really get him know it takes a while to really get him know it takes a while to really get him to open up culturally speaking in Japan to open up culturally speaking in Japan to open up culturally speaking in Japan you know couple nights of karaoke and you know couple nights of karaoke and you know couple nights of karaoke and and uh you know whatnot maybe late late and uh you know whatnot maybe late late and uh you know whatnot maybe late late night uh late night restaurant whatever night uh late night restaurant whatever night uh late night restaurant whatever it is we we built a good enough it is we we built a good enough it is we we built a good enough relationship where he was he was very relationship where he was he was very relationship where he was he was very candid with me he said uh I'm the COO of candid with me he said uh I'm the COO of candid with me he said uh I'm the COO of the the the company I could go and find the head of company I could go and find the head of company I could go and find the head of a Research Unit and tell him okay this a Research Unit and tell him okay this a Research Unit and tell him okay this is a project we're no longer working on is a project we're no longer working on is a project we're no longer working on as a company we don't want to spend as a company we don't want to spend as a company we don't want to spend money on it we're going to spend money money on it we're going to spend money money on it we're going to spend money somewhere else and he'll looked me in somewhere else and he'll looked me in somewhere else and he'll looked me in the eye and he'll say yes sir yes sir the eye and he'll say yes sir yes sir the eye and he'll say yes sir yes sir I'll come back six months later and find I'll come back six months later and find I'll come back six months later and find that they're spending exactly the same that they're spending exactly the same that they're spending exactly the same amount of money on those exact same amount of money on those exact same amount of money on those exact same projects and I'll tell them no we agreed projects and I'll tell them no we agreed projects and I'll tell them no we agreed I told you that you're not going to

I told you that you're not going to I told you that you're not going to spend money on this project and we have spend money on this project and we have spend money on this project and we have to stop now it should have stopped six to stop now it should have stopped six to stop now it should have stopped six months ago get a slap on the wrist for months ago get a slap on the wrist for months ago get a slap on the wrist for it he says yes sir I'm sorry yes no no it he says yes sir I'm sorry yes no no it he says yes sir I'm sorry yes no no of course that's correct come back six of course that's correct come back six of course that's correct come back six months later same person is spending the months later same person is spending the months later same person is spending the same money on the same project and same money on the same project and same money on the same project and here's why historically in Japan and I here's why historically in Japan and I here's why historically in Japan and I should say in Japan this is changing now should say in Japan this is changing now should say in Japan this is changing now it's changing now but historically until it's changing now but historically until it's changing now but historically until very recently and even to an extent now very recently and even to an extent now very recently and even to an extent now it's near impossible to fire people so it's near impossible to fire people so it's near impossible to fire people so if somebody works for you and you can't if somebody works for you and you can't if somebody works for you and you can't fire them that means they don't actually fire them that means they don't actually fire them that means they don't actually work for you it means in some deeper work for you it means in some deeper work for you it means in some deeper perverse sense you work for them because perverse sense you work for them because perverse sense you work for them because you're responsible for what they do you're responsible for what they do you're responsible for what they do without any authority to actually change without any authority to actually change without any authority to actually change it so I think most people have traveled it so I think most people have traveled it so I think most people have traveled in Japan and Japanese corporate culture in Japan and Japanese corporate culture in Japan and Japanese corporate culture through the 1990s and 2000s and 2010s through the 1990s and 2000s and 2010s through the 1990s and 2000s and 2010s and maybe even some vestiges in the and maybe even some vestiges in the and maybe even some vestiges in the 2020s wouldn't really dispute what I 2020s wouldn't really dispute what I 2020s wouldn't really dispute what I just told you now we're bringing back to just told you now we're bringing back to just told you now we're bringing back to the more contentious terrain I think the more contentious terrain I think the more contentious terrain I think that's basically how things have worked that's basically how things have worked that's basically how things have worked in the executive branch of the federal in the executive branch of the federal in the executive branch of the federal government of the United States of government of the United States of government of the United States of America you have these so-called Civil America you have these so-called Civil America you have these so-called Civil Service protections on the books now if Service protections on the books now if Service protections on the books now if you really read them carefully I think you really read them carefully I think you really read them carefully I think that there are areas to provide daylight that there are areas to provide daylight that there are areas to provide daylight for a truly constitutionally for a truly constitutionally for a truly constitutionally well-trained president to act but aart well-trained president to act but aart well-trained president to act but aart from those that's a contrarian view that from those that's a contrarian view that from those that's a contrarian view that I have that bucks conventional wisdom I have that bucks conventional wisdom I have that bucks conventional wisdom but apart from that caveat in general but apart from that caveat in general but apart from that caveat in general the conventional view has been the US the conventional view has been the US the conventional view has been the US president can't fire these people president can't fire these people president can't fire these people there's 4 million Federal bureaucrats there's 4 million Federal bureaucrats there's 4 million Federal bureaucrats 99.9% of them can't be touched by the

99.9% of them can't be touched by the 99.9% of them can't be touched by the person who the people who elected to run person who the people who elected to run person who the people who elected to run the executive branch can't even fire the executive branch can't even fire the executive branch can't even fire those people it's like the equivalent of those people it's like the equivalent of those people it's like the equivalent of that Japanese CEO and so that culture that Japanese CEO and so that culture that Japanese CEO and so that culture exists every bit as much in the federal exists every bit as much in the federal exists every bit as much in the federal bureaucracy of the United States of bureaucracy of the United States of bureaucracy of the United States of America as it did in Japanese corporate America as it did in Japanese corporate America as it did in Japanese corporate culture through the N 1990s and that's a culture through the N 1990s and that's a culture through the N 1990s and that's a lot of what's wrong with not just the lot of what's wrong with not just the lot of what's wrong with not just the way that our Department of Defense is way that our Department of Defense is way that our Department of Defense is run and our foreign policy establishment run and our foreign policy establishment run and our foreign policy establishment has run but I think it applies to a lot has run but I think it applies to a lot has run but I think it applies to a lot of the domestic policy establishment as of the domestic policy establishment as of the domestic policy establishment as well and to come back to the core Point well and to come back to the core Point well and to come back to the core Point how are we going to save this Republic how are we going to save this Republic how are we going to save this Republic this is the debate in the conservative this is the debate in the conservative this is the debate in the conservative movement right now this is a little bit movement right now this is a little bit movement right now this is a little bit maybe a little bit spicy for some maybe a little bit spicy for some maybe a little bit spicy for some Republicans to to to sort of swallow Republicans to to to sort of swallow Republicans to to to sort of swallow right now and you know my top focus is right now and you know my top focus is right now and you know my top focus is making sure that we win the election but making sure that we win the election but making sure that we win the election but let's just move the ball forward a let's just move the ball forward a let's just move the ball forward a little bit and skate to where the puck little bit and skate to where the puck little bit and skate to where the puck is going here okay yes let's say we win is going here okay yes let's say we win is going here okay yes let's say we win the election all is well and dandy okay the election all is well and dandy okay the election all is well and dandy okay what's the philosophy that determines what's the philosophy that determines what's the philosophy that determines how we govern there's a little bit of a how we govern there's a little bit of a how we govern there's a little bit of a fork in the road amongst conservatives fork in the road amongst conservatives fork in the road amongst conservatives where there are there are those who where there are there are those who where there are there are those who believe that the right answer now is to believe that the right answer now is to believe that the right answer now is to use that regulatory State and use those use that regulatory State and use those use that regulatory State and use those levers of power to advance our own levers of power to advance our own levers of power to advance our own pro-conservative pro-american pro-worker pro-conservative pro-american pro-worker pro-conservative pro-american pro-worker goals and I'm sympathetic to all of goals and I'm sympathetic to all of goals and I'm sympathetic to all of those goals but I don't think that the those goals but I don't think that the those goals but I don't think that the right way to do it is to create a right way to do it is to create a right way to do it is to create a conservative regulatory state that conservative regulatory state that conservative regulatory state that replaces a liberal regulatory State I replaces a liberal regulatory State I replaces a liberal regulatory State I think the right answer is actually to think the right answer is actually to think the right answer is actually to get in there and shut it down I don't get in there and shut it down I don't get in there and shut it down I don't want to replace the leftwing nanny state want to replace the leftwing nanny state want to replace the leftwing nanny state with the right-wing Nanny State I want with the right-wing Nanny State I want with the right-wing Nanny State I want to get in there and actually dismantle to get in there and actually dismantle to get in there and actually dismantle The Nanny State and I think it has been

The Nanny State and I think it has been The Nanny State and I think it has been a long time in the United States maybe a long time in the United States maybe a long time in the United States maybe ever in modern history that we've had ever in modern history that we've had ever in modern history that we've had a conservative leader at the national a conservative leader at the national a conservative leader at the national level who makes it their principal level who makes it their principal level who makes it their principal objective to dismantle The Nanny state objective to dismantle The Nanny state objective to dismantle The Nanny state in all of its forms the entitlement in all of its forms the entitlement in all of its forms the entitlement State the regulatory State and the State the regulatory State and the State the regulatory State and the foreign policy Nanny foreign policy Nanny foreign policy Nanny state that was a state that was a state that was a core focus of my candidacy one of the core focus of my candidacy one of the core focus of my candidacy one of the things that I uh wish and this on me not things that I uh wish and this on me not things that I uh wish and this on me not anybody else that I should have done anybody else that I should have done anybody else that I should have done better was to make that more Crystal better was to make that more Crystal better was to make that more Crystal clear as a focus without getting clear as a focus without getting clear as a focus without getting distracted by a lot of the a lot of the distracted by a lot of the a lot of the distracted by a lot of the a lot of the shenanigans let's just say that happen shenanigans let's just say that happen shenanigans let's just say that happen as side shows during a presidential as side shows during a presidential as side shows during a presidential campaign but call that a lesson learned campaign but call that a lesson learned campaign but call that a lesson learned because I do think it's what the country because I do think it's what the country because I do think it's what the country needs now more than ever yeah it's a needs now more than ever yeah it's a needs now more than ever yeah it's a it's a really really powerful idea I it's a really really powerful idea I it's a really really powerful idea I it's actually something that Donald it's actually something that Donald it's actually something that Donald Trump ran on in uh 2016 it's drain the Trump ran on in uh 2016 it's drain the Trump ran on in uh 2016 it's drain the swamp drain the swamp I think by most swamp drain the swamp I think by most swamp drain the swamp I think by most accounts maybe you can disagree with me accounts maybe you can disagree with me accounts maybe you can disagree with me he did not successfully do so he did he did not successfully do so he did he did not successfully do so he did fire a bunch of people more than usual fire a bunch of people more than usual fire a bunch of people more than usual can I say a word about the conditions he can I say a word about the conditions he can I say a word about the conditions he was operating in because I think this was operating in because I think this was operating in because I think this why I'm far more excited for this time why I'm far more excited for this time why I'm far more excited for this time around is that a lot has changed in the around is that a lot has changed in the around is that a lot has changed in the legal landscape so Donald Trump did not legal landscape so Donald Trump did not legal landscape so Donald Trump did not have the Supreme Court backdrop in 2016 have the Supreme Court backdrop in 2016 have the Supreme Court backdrop in 2016 that he does today so there are some that he does today so there are some that he does today so there are some really important cases that have come really important cases that have come really important cases that have come down from the Supreme Court one is West down from the Supreme Court one is West down from the Supreme Court one is West Virginia versus EPA I think it's Virginia versus EPA I think it's Virginia versus EPA I think it's probably the most important case of Our

probably the most important case of Our probably the most important case of Our Generation in 2022 that came down and Generation in 2022 that came down and Generation in 2022 that came down and said that if Congress has not passed a said that if Congress has not passed a said that if Congress has not passed a rule into law itself through the halls rule into law itself through the halls rule into law itself through the halls of Congress and it relates to what they of Congress and it relates to what they of Congress and it relates to what they call a major question a major policy or call a major question a major policy or call a major question a major policy or economic question it can't be done by economic question it can't be done by economic question it can't be done by the stroke of a pen by a regulator an the stroke of a pen by a regulator an the stroke of a pen by a regulator an unelected bureaucrat unelected bureaucrat unelected bureaucrat either that quite literally means most either that quite literally means most either that quite literally means most federal regulations today are federal regulations today are federal regulations today are unconstitutional then this year comes unconstitutional then this year comes unconstitutional then this year comes down a different big one another big one down a different big one another big one down a different big one another big one from the Supreme Court in the Loper from the Supreme Court in the Loper from the Supreme Court in the Loper brigh case which held that historically brigh case which held that historically brigh case which held that historically for the last 50 years in this country for the last 50 years in this country for the last 50 years in this country the doctrine has been it's called the doctrine has been it's called the doctrine has been it's called Chevron Defence it's a doctrine that Chevron Defence it's a doctrine that Chevron Defence it's a doctrine that says that federal courts have to says that federal courts have to says that federal courts have to defer to an agency's interpretation of defer to an agency's interpretation of defer to an agency's interpretation of the the the law they now toss that out the window law they now toss that out the window law they now toss that out the window and said no no no the federal courts no and said no no no the federal courts no and said no no no the federal courts no longer have to defer to an agency's longer have to defer to an agency's longer have to defer to an agency's interpretation of what the law actually interpretation of what the law actually interpretation of what the law actually is the combination of those two cases is is the combination of those two cases is is the combination of those two cases is seismic and its impact for the seismic and its impact for the seismic and its impact for the regulatory State there's also another regulatory State there's also another regulatory State there's also another great case that came down was SEC versus great case that came down was SEC versus great case that came down was SEC versus jassy and and the SEC is one of these jassy and and the SEC is one of these jassy and and the SEC is one of these agencies that embodies everything we're agencies that embodies everything we're agencies that embodies everything we're talking about here the SEC among other talking about here the SEC among other talking about here the SEC among other agencies has tribunals inside that not agencies has tribunals inside that not agencies has tribunals inside that not only do they write the rules not only do only do they write the rules not only do only do they write the rules not only do they enforce those rules they also have they enforce those rules they also have they enforce those rules they also have these judges inside the agency that also these judges inside the agency that also these judges inside the agency that also interpret the rules and determine and do interpret the rules and determine and do interpret the rules and determine and do out out out punishments that doesn't make sense with punishments that doesn't make sense with punishments that doesn't make sense with you believe in separation of powers in you believe in separation of powers in you believe in separation of powers in the United States so the Supreme Court the United States so the Supreme Court the United States so the Supreme Court put an end to that and said that that put an end to that and said that that put an end to that and said that that practice at the SEC is unconstitutional practice at the SEC is unconstitutional practice at the SEC is unconstitutional actually as a side note the Supreme actually as a side note the Supreme actually as a side note the Supreme Court has said countless practices and

Court has said countless practices and Court has said countless practices and rules written by the SEC the EPA the FTC rules written by the SEC the EPA the FTC rules written by the SEC the EPA the FTC in recent years were outright in recent years were outright in recent years were outright unconstitutional think about what that unconstitutional think about what that unconstitutional think about what that means for a a constitutional republic means for a a constitutional republic means for a a constitutional republic that supposedly these law enforcement that supposedly these law enforcement that supposedly these law enforcement agencies the courts have now said agencies the courts have now said agencies the courts have now said especially this year the courts have now especially this year the courts have now especially this year the courts have now said that their own behaviors actually said that their own behaviors actually said that their own behaviors actually break the law so the very agencies break the law so the very agencies break the law so the very agencies entrusted with supposedly enforcing the entrusted with supposedly enforcing the entrusted with supposedly enforcing the law are actually behaving with utter law are actually behaving with utter law are actually behaving with utter blatant disregard for the law itself blatant disregard for the law itself blatant disregard for the law itself that's unamerican it's not tenable in that's unamerican it's not tenable in that's unamerican it's not tenable in the United States of America but the United States of America but the United States of America but thankfully we now have a supreme court thankfully we now have a supreme court thankfully we now have a supreme court that recognizes that so you know whether that recognizes that so you know whether that recognizes that so you know whether or not we have a second Trump term well or not we have a second Trump term well or not we have a second Trump term well that's up to the voters but even whether that's up to the voters but even whether that's up to the voters but even whether or not that now takes advantage of that or not that now takes advantage of that or not that now takes advantage of that backdrop the Supreme Court has given us backdrop the Supreme Court has given us backdrop the Supreme Court has given us to actually gut the regulatory State to actually gut the regulatory State to actually gut the regulatory State we'll find out I I'm optimistic I we'll find out I I'm optimistic I we'll find out I I'm optimistic I certainly think it's the best chance certainly think it's the best chance certainly think it's the best chance that we've had in a generation in this that we've had in a generation in this that we've had in a generation in this country and that's a big part of why I'm country and that's a big part of why I'm country and that's a big part of why I'm supporting Donald Trump and well I'm supporting Donald Trump and well I'm supporting Donald Trump and well I'm gonna do everything in my power to help gonna do everything in my power to help gonna do everything in my power to help him but I do think it is going to take a him but I do think it is going to take a him but I do think it is going to take a spine of Steel to see that through and spine of Steel to see that through and spine of Steel to see that through and then after we've taken on the regulatory then after we've taken on the regulatory then after we've taken on the regulatory State I think that's the next step but I State I think that's the next step but I State I think that's the next step but I do think there's this broader project of do think there's this broader project of do think there's this broader project of dismantling The Nanny state in all of dismantling The Nanny state in all of dismantling The Nanny state in all of its forms the entitlement State the its forms the entitlement State the its forms the entitlement State the regulatory State and the foreign policy regulatory State and the foreign policy regulatory State and the foreign policy in any state three-word answer if I was in any state three-word answer if I was in any state three-word answer if I was to summarize my worldview and uh my to summarize my worldview and uh my to summarize my worldview and uh my presidential campaign in three words

presidential campaign in three words presidential campaign in three words shut it down shut it down okay so the shut it down shut it down okay so the shut it down shut it down okay so the the Supreme Court cases you the Supreme Court cases you the Supreme Court cases you mentioned there's a lot of nuance there mentioned there's a lot of nuance there mentioned there's a lot of nuance there yeah I guess it's weakening the immune yeah I guess it's weakening the immune yeah I guess it's weakening the immune system of the different departments yeah system of the different departments yeah system of the different departments yeah it's a good way of putting it y on the it's a good way of putting it y on the it's a good way of putting it y on the human psychology level so you basically human psychology level so you basically human psychology level so you basically kind of implied that for Donald Trump or kind of implied that for Donald Trump or kind of implied that for Donald Trump or for any for any for any president the the legal situation was president the the legal situation was president the the legal situation was difficult is that the only thing really difficult is that the only thing really difficult is that the only thing really operating like isn't it just on a operating like isn't it just on a operating like isn't it just on a psychological level just psychological level just psychological level just uh hard yeah to fire a very large number uh hard yeah to fire a very large number uh hard yeah to fire a very large number of people is that what it is like why is of people is that what it is like why is of people is that what it is like why is there a basic Civility and momentum there a basic Civility and momentum there a basic Civility and momentum going on there's one other Factor so so going on there's one other Factor so so going on there's one other Factor so so so you're right to point I mean the so you're right to point I mean the so you're right to point I mean the legal backdrop is is a valid legal backdrop is is a valid legal backdrop is is a valid understandable excuse in reason um I understandable excuse in reason um I understandable excuse in reason um I think there are other factors at play think there are other factors at play think there are other factors at play too so I think there's something to be too so I think there's something to be too so I think there's something to be said for never having been in government said for never having been in government said for never having been in government showing up there the first time and showing up there the first time and showing up there the first time and you're having to understand the rules of you're having to understand the rules of you're having to understand the rules of the road as you're operating within them the road as you're operating within them the road as you're operating within them and also having to depend on people who and also having to depend on people who and also having to depend on people who actually aren't aligned with your policy actually aren't aligned with your policy actually aren't aligned with your policy Vision but tell you to your face that Vision but tell you to your face that Vision but tell you to your face that they are and so I think that's one of they are and so I think that's one of they are and so I think that's one of the things that I've admired about the things that I've admired about the things that I've admired about President Trump is he's actually been President Trump is he's actually been President Trump is he's actually been very open about that very humble about very open about that very humble about very open about that very humble about that to say that there's a million that to say that there's a million that to say that there's a million learnings from that first term that make learnings from that first term that make learnings from that first term that make him ambitious and more ambitious in that him ambitious and more ambitious in that him ambitious and more ambitious in that second term but everything I'm talking second term but everything I'm talking second term but everything I'm talking to you about this is what needs to to you about this is what needs to to you about this is what needs to happen in the country it's not specific happen in the country it's not specific happen in the country it's not specific to Donald Trump it's it's lays out what to Donald Trump it's it's lays out what to Donald Trump it's it's lays out what needs to be done in the country there's

needs to be done in the country there's needs to be done in the country there's the next four years Donald Trump is our the next four years Donald Trump is our the next four years Donald Trump is our last best hope and chance for moving last best hope and chance for moving last best hope and chance for moving that ball forward but I think that the that ball forward but I think that the that ball forward but I think that the the vision I'm laying out here is one the vision I'm laying out here is one the vision I'm laying out here is one that hopefully goes even Beyond just the that hopefully goes even Beyond just the that hopefully goes even Beyond just the next two or four years of really fixing next two or four years of really fixing next two or four years of really fixing a Century's worth of mistakes I think a Century's worth of mistakes I think a Century's worth of mistakes I think we're going to fix a lot of them in the we're going to fix a lot of them in the we're going to fix a lot of them in the next four years of Donald Trump's next four years of Donald Trump's next four years of Donald Trump's president but if you have a Century's president but if you have a Century's president but if you have a Century's worth of mistakes that have accumulated worth of mistakes that have accumulated worth of mistakes that have accumulated with the overgrowth of the entitlement with the overgrowth of the entitlement with the overgrowth of the entitlement state in the US I think it's going to state in the US I think it's going to state in the US I think it's going to take you know probably the better part take you know probably the better part take you know probably the better part of a decade at least to actually fix of a decade at least to actually fix of a decade at least to actually fix them I disagree with you on both the them I disagree with you on both the them I disagree with you on both the last and the best last and the best last and the best hope uh I Donald Trump is more likely to hope uh I Donald Trump is more likely to hope uh I Donald Trump is more likely to fire a lot of people but is he the best fire a lot of people but is he the best fire a lot of people but is he the best person to do so we got two candidates person to do so we got two candidates person to do so we got two candidates right people face a choice this is a right people face a choice this is a right people face a choice this is a relevant election one of my goals is to relevant election one of my goals is to relevant election one of my goals is to speak to people who may not agree with speak to people who may not agree with speak to people who may not agree with 100% of what Donald who do not agree 100% of what Donald who do not agree 100% of what Donald who do not agree with 100% of what Donald Trump says and with 100% of what Donald Trump says and with 100% of what Donald Trump says and I can tell them you know what I don't I can tell them you know what I don't I can tell them you know what I don't agree with 100% of what he says and I agree with 100% of what he says and I agree with 100% of what he says and I can tell you as somebody who ran against can tell you as somebody who ran against can tell you as somebody who ran against him for us president that right now he him for us president that right now he him for us president that right now he is when I say the last best hope I mean is when I say the last best hope I mean is when I say the last best hope I mean in this cycle the last best hope that we in this cycle the last best hope that we in this cycle the last best hope that we have for dismantling that bureaucratic have for dismantling that bureaucratic have for dismantling that bureaucratic class and you know I think that I'm also class and you know I think that I'm also class and you know I think that I'm also open about the fact that it's going to open about the fact that it's going to open about the fact that it's going to take this is a long run project but we take this is a long run project but we take this is a long run project but we have the next step to actually the next have the next step to actually the next have the next step to actually the next step to actually take over the next few step to actually take over the next few step to actually take over the next few years that's kind of where I land on it years that's kind of where I land on it years that's kind of where I land on it I mean you you talked to him I guess a I mean you you talked to him I guess a I mean you you talked to him I guess a few weeks ago I saw you had a podcast few weeks ago I saw you had a podcast few weeks ago I saw you had a podcast with them right what was your impression with them right what was your impression with them right what was your impression about his his preparedness to do it my about his his preparedness to do it my about his his preparedness to do it my impression is his prity allocation was

impression is his prity allocation was impression is his prity allocation was different than yours I think he's more different than yours I think he's more different than yours I think he's more focused on some of the other topics that focused on some of the other topics that focused on some of the other topics that you are also Focus laser focused on and you are also Focus laser focused on and you are also Focus laser focused on and there is aention there just as you've there is aention there just as you've there is aention there just as you've clearly highlighted we share the same clearly highlighted we share the same clearly highlighted we share the same priority with respect to the southern priority with respect to the southern priority with respect to the southern border and that's that's those are border and that's that's those are border and that's that's those are near-term fixes that we can hit out of near-term fixes that we can hit out of near-term fixes that we can hit out of the park in the first year but at the the park in the first year but at the the park in the first year but at the same time I think we got to think also same time I think we got to think also same time I think we got to think also on decade long time Horizon so my own on decade long time Horizon so my own on decade long time Horizon so my own view is um I think that I think that he view is um I think that I think that he view is um I think that I think that he it is my conviction and belief that he it is my conviction and belief that he it is my conviction and belief that he does care about dismantling that Federal does care about dismantling that Federal does care about dismantling that Federal bureaucracy certainly more so than any bureaucracy certainly more so than any bureaucracy certainly more so than any Republican nominee we have had in Republican nominee we have had in Republican nominee we have had in certainly in my lifetime but I do think certainly in my lifetime but I do think certainly in my lifetime but I do think that there are going to be competing that there are going to be competing that there are going to be competing schools of thought where some will say schools of thought where some will say schools of thought where some will say okay well we want to create a right-wing okay well we want to create a right-wing okay well we want to create a right-wing entitlement state right to shower entitlement state right to shower entitlement state right to shower Federal subsidies on favored Industries Federal subsidies on favored Industries Federal subsidies on favored Industries while keeping them away from disfavored while keeping them away from disfavored while keeping them away from disfavored Industries and new bureaucracies to Industries and new bureaucracies to Industries and new bureaucracies to administer them and you know I I don't administer them and you know I I don't administer them and you know I I don't come from that school of thought I don't come from that school of thought I don't come from that school of thought I don't want to see the bureaucracy expand in a want to see the bureaucracy expand in a want to see the bureaucracy expand in a pro-conservative dire I want to see the pro-conservative dire I want to see the pro-conservative dire I want to see the bureaucracy shrink in every direction bureaucracy shrink in every direction bureaucracy shrink in every direction and you know I do think that from my and you know I do think that from my and you know I do think that from my conversations with Donald Trump I I conversations with Donald Trump I I conversations with Donald Trump I I believe that he is well aligned with believe that he is well aligned with believe that he is well aligned with this vision of shrinking bureaucracy but this vision of shrinking bureaucracy but this vision of shrinking bureaucracy but that's a longer term project there's so that's a longer term project there's so that's a longer term project there's so many priorities at play here though I many priorities at play here though I many priorities at play here though I mean you really do have to do the Elon mean you really do have to do the Elon mean you really do have to do the Elon thing of walking into Twitter thing of walking into Twitter thing of walking into Twitter headquarters with a SN right let that headquarters with a SN right let that headquarters with a SN right let that sink in that basically firing a very sink in that basically firing a very sink in that basically firing a very large number of people and it's but it's large number of people and it's but it's large number of people and it's but it's not just about the firing it's about not just about the firing it's about not just about the firing it's about setting clear missions for the different

setting clear missions for the different setting clear missions for the different departments that remain uh hiring back departments that remain uh hiring back departments that remain uh hiring back cuz you overfire hiring back uh based on cuz you overfire hiring back uh based on cuz you overfire hiring back uh based on meritocracy and mean it's it's a meritocracy and mean it's it's a meritocracy and mean it's it's a full-time and it's not it's not only full-time and it's not it's not only full-time and it's not it's not only full-time in terms of actual time it's full-time in terms of actual time it's full-time in terms of actual time it's full-time psychologically because you're full-time psychologically because you're full-time psychologically because you're walking into a place unlike a company walking into a place unlike a company walking into a place unlike a company like Twitter an already successful like Twitter an already successful like Twitter an already successful company in government I mean everybody company in government I mean everybody company in government I mean everybody around you all the experts and the advis around you all the experts and the advis around you all the experts and the advis advisers are going to tell you you're advisers are going to tell you you're advisers are going to tell you you're wrong mhm and and like it's a very wrong mhm and and like it's a very wrong mhm and and like it's a very difficult psychological place to operate difficult psychological place to operate difficult psychological place to operate in because like you're constantly the in because like you're constantly the in because like you're constantly the and I mean the the certainty you and I mean the the certainty you and I mean the the certainty you have to have about what you're doing is have to have about what you're doing is have to have about what you're doing is just like nearly infinite because just like nearly infinite because just like nearly infinite because everybody all the really smart people everybody all the really smart people everybody all the really smart people are telling you no this is a terrible are telling you no this is a terrible are telling you no this is a terrible idea sir this is a terrible idea you you idea sir this is a terrible idea you you idea sir this is a terrible idea you you have to have the spine of Steel to cut have to have the spine of Steel to cut have to have the spine of Steel to cut through what that short-term advice is through what that short-term advice is through what that short-term advice is you're getting and I'll tell you uh you're getting and I'll tell you uh you're getting and I'll tell you uh certainly you I I intend to do whatever certainly you I I intend to do whatever certainly you I I intend to do whatever I can for this country both in the next I can for this country both in the next I can for this country both in the next four years and Beyond but my voice on four years and Beyond but my voice on four years and Beyond but my voice on this will be crystal clear and president this will be crystal clear and president this will be crystal clear and president Trump knows that's my view on it and and Trump knows that's my view on it and and Trump knows that's my view on it and and I believe he shares it deeply is that I believe he shares it deeply is that I believe he shares it deeply is that all all equal getting there and shut all all equal getting there and shut all all equal getting there and shut down a as much of the excess bureaucracy down a as much of the excess bureaucracy down a as much of the excess bureaucracy as we can do it as quickly as possible as we can do it as quickly as possible as we can do it as quickly as possible and that's a big part of how we save our and that's a big part of how we save our and that's a big part of how we save our country okay I'll give you an example country okay I'll give you an example country okay I'll give you an example that's really difficult tension given

that's really difficult tension given that's really difficult tension given your priorities immigration there's an your priorities immigration there's an your priorities immigration there's an estimated 14 million illegal immigrants estimated 14 million illegal immigrants estimated 14 million illegal immigrants in the United States you've spoken about in the United States you've spoken about in the United States you've spoken about Mass deportation yes that requires a lot Mass deportation yes that requires a lot Mass deportation yes that requires a lot of effort right money I mean like how do of effort right money I mean like how do of effort right money I mean like how do you do it and how does that conflict you do it and how does that conflict you do it and how does that conflict with the shutting it down sure and so it with the shutting it down sure and so it with the shutting it down sure and so it goes back to that original discussion we goes back to that original discussion we goes back to that original discussion we had is what is the what are the few had is what is the what are the few had is what is the what are the few proper roles of the federal government I proper roles of the federal government I proper roles of the federal government I gave you two one is of the government gave you two one is of the government gave you two one is of the government period one is to protect the national period one is to protect the national period one is to protect the national borders and sovereignty of the United borders and sovereignty of the United borders and sovereignty of the United States and two is to protect private States and two is to protect private States and two is to protect private property rights there's a lot else most property rights there's a lot else most property rights there's a lot else most of what the government's doing today of what the government's doing today of what the government's doing today both at the federal and state level is both at the federal and state level is both at the federal and state level is something other than those two things something other than those two things something other than those two things but in my book those are the two things but in my book those are the two things but in my book those are the two things that are the proper function of that are the proper function of that are the proper function of government so for everything else the government so for everything else the government so for everything else the federal government should not be doing federal government should not be doing federal government should not be doing the one thing they should be doing is to the one thing they should be doing is to the one thing they should be doing is to protect the homeland of the United protect the homeland of the United protect the homeland of the United States of America and the sovereignty States of America and the sovereignty States of America and the sovereignty and sanctity of our national borders so and sanctity of our national borders so and sanctity of our national borders so in that domain that's missional LED with in that domain that's missional LED with in that domain that's missional LED with a proper purpose for the federal a proper purpose for the federal a proper purpose for the federal government I Think We're a nation government I Think We're a nation government I Think We're a nation founded on the rule of law I say this as founded on the rule of law I say this as founded on the rule of law I say this as the kid of legal immigrants that means the kid of legal immigrants that means the kid of legal immigrants that means your First Act of entering this country your First Act of entering this country your First Act of entering this country cannot break the law and in some ways if cannot break the law and in some ways if cannot break the law and in some ways if I was to summarize a a formula for I was to summarize a a formula for I was to summarize a a formula for saving the country over the next four saving the country over the next four saving the country over the next four years it would be a tale of two mass years it would be a tale of two mass years it would be a tale of two mass deportations the mass deportations of deportations the mass deportations of deportations the mass deportations of millions of illegals who are in this millions of illegals who are in this millions of illegals who are in this country and should not be and then the country and should not be and then the country and should not be and then the mass deportation of millions of mass deportation of millions of mass deportation of millions of unelected federal bureaucrats out of unelected federal bureaucrats out of unelected federal bureaucrats out of Washington DC now all sequel you could Washington DC now all sequel you could Washington DC now all sequel you could say those are in ention but I think that say those are in ention but I think that say those are in ention but I think that the reality is anything outside of the

the reality is anything outside of the the reality is anything outside of the scope of what the core function of the scope of what the core function of the scope of what the core function of the government is which is protecting government is which is protecting government is which is protecting borders and protecting private property borders and protecting private property borders and protecting private property rights that's really where I think the rights that's really where I think the rights that's really where I think the predominant Cuts need to be and and if predominant Cuts need to be and and if predominant Cuts need to be and and if you look at the number of people who are you look at the number of people who are you look at the number of people who are looking after the Border it's not even looking after the Border it's not even looking after the Border it's not even 0.1% of the federal employee Base today 0.1% of the federal employee Base today 0.1% of the federal employee Base today so 75% isn't 99.99% it's 75% which still so 75% isn't 99.99% it's 75% which still so 75% isn't 99.99% it's 75% which still leaves that it would still be a tiny leaves that it would still be a tiny leaves that it would still be a tiny fraction of the remaining 25% which I fraction of the remaining 25% which I fraction of the remaining 25% which I actually think needs to be more more actually think needs to be more more actually think needs to be more more rather than less so it's a good question rather than less so it's a good question rather than less so it's a good question but that's sort of where I land on when but that's sort of where I land on when but that's sort of where I land on when it's a proper role of the Federal it's a proper role of the Federal it's a proper role of the Federal Government Great ACT and actually do Government Great ACT and actually do Government Great ACT and actually do your job the irony is your job the irony is your job the irony is 99.9999% of those resources are going to 99.9999% of those resources are going to 99.9999% of those resources are going to functions other than the protection of functions other than the protection of functions other than the protection of private property rights and the private property rights and the private property rights and the protection of our national physical protection of our national physical protection of our national physical protection there is a lot of criticism protection there is a lot of criticism protection there is a lot of criticism of the idea of mass deportation though of the idea of mass deportation though of the idea of mass deportation though so one fair enough it would cause uh a so one fair enough it would cause uh a so one fair enough it would cause uh a large amount of economic harm at least large amount of economic harm at least large amount of economic harm at least in the short term the other is there in the short term the other is there in the short term the other is there would be potentially violations of our would be potentially violations of our would be potentially violations of our kind of higher ideals of how we like to kind of higher ideals of how we like to kind of higher ideals of how we like to treat human beings in particular treat human beings in particular treat human beings in particular separation of families for example uh separation of families for example uh separation of families for example uh tearing families apart um and the other tearing families apart um and the other tearing families apart um and the other is just like the logistical complexity is just like the logistical complexity is just like the logistical complexity of doing something like this how do you of doing something like this how do you of doing something like this how do you answer to some of those criticism I answer to some of those criticism I answer to some of those criticism I guess so fair enough or and I would call guess so fair enough or and I would call guess so fair enough or and I would call those even not even criticisms but just those even not even criticisms but just those even not even criticisms but just thoughtful questions right even if thoughtful questions right even if thoughtful questions right even if somebody who's really aligned with doing somebody who's really aligned with doing somebody who's really aligned with doing this those are thoughtful questions to this those are thoughtful questions to this those are thoughtful questions to ask so I do want to say something about ask so I do want to say something about ask so I do want to say something about this point on on uh how we think about this point on on uh how we think about this point on on uh how we think about the breakage of the rule of law in other the breakage of the rule of law in other the breakage of the rule of law in other contexts there are 350,000 mothers who

contexts there are 350,000 mothers who contexts there are 350,000 mothers who are in prison in the United States today are in prison in the United States today are in prison in the United States today who committed crimes and were convicted who committed crimes and were convicted who committed crimes and were convicted of them they didn't take their kids with of them they didn't take their kids with of them they didn't take their kids with them to those prisons either right so we them to those prisons either right so we them to those prisons either right so we Face difficult trade-offs in all kinds Face difficult trade-offs in all kinds Face difficult trade-offs in all kinds of context as it relates to the of context as it relates to the of context as it relates to the enforcement of Law and I just want to enforcement of Law and I just want to enforcement of Law and I just want to make that basic observation against the make that basic observation against the make that basic observation against the backdrop of if we're a nation founded on backdrop of if we're a nation founded on backdrop of if we're a nation founded on the rule of law that a we acknowledge the rule of law that a we acknowledge the rule of law that a we acknowledge that there are trade-offs to enforcing that there are trade-offs to enforcing that there are trade-offs to enforcing the law and we've acknowledged that in the law and we've acknowledged that in the law and we've acknowledged that in other contexts I don't think that we other contexts I don't think that we other contexts I don't think that we should have a special exemption for should have a special exemption for should have a special exemption for saying that somehow we weigh the other saying that somehow we weigh the other saying that somehow we weigh the other way when it comes to the issue of the way when it comes to the issue of the way when it comes to the issue of the Border We're a nation founded under the Border We're a nation founded under the Border We're a nation founded under the rule of law we enforce laws that has rule of law we enforce laws that has rule of law we enforce laws that has costs that has trade-offs but it's who costs that has trade-offs but it's who costs that has trade-offs but it's who we are so that backdrop is and the we are so that backdrop is and the we are so that backdrop is and the easiest fact I can cite is 350,000 or so easiest fact I can cite is 350,000 or so easiest fact I can cite is 350,000 or so mothers who are in prison and did not mothers who are in prison and did not mothers who are in prison and did not take their kids to prison with them is take their kids to prison with them is take their kids to prison with them is that bad that is is is undesirable for that bad that is is is undesirable for that bad that is is is undesirable for kids to grow up without those 350,000 kids to grow up without those 350,000 kids to grow up without those 350,000 mothers it is mothers it is mothers it is but it's a difficult situation created but it's a difficult situation created but it's a difficult situation created by people who violated the law and faced by people who violated the law and faced by people who violated the law and faced the consequences of it which is also a the consequences of it which is also a the consequences of it which is also a competing and important priority in the competing and important priority in the competing and important priority in the country so that's in the domestic country so that's in the domestic country so that's in the domestic context as it relates to this question context as it relates to this question context as it relates to this question of mass deportations let's just get very of mass deportations let's just get very of mass deportations let's just get very practical because all that was practical because all that was practical because all that was theoretical very practically there's theoretical very practically there's theoretical very practically there's ways to do this starting with people ways to do this starting with people ways to do this starting with people have already broken the law people have have already broken the law people have have already broken the law people have not just broken the law of entering but not just broken the law of entering but not just broken the law of entering but are committing other crimes while are committing other crimes while are committing other crimes while already here in the United States that's already here in the United States that's already here in the United States that's a clear case for an instant Mass a clear case for an instant Mass a clear case for an instant Mass deportation you have a lot of people who deportation you have a lot of people who deportation you have a lot of people who haven't integrated into their haven't integrated into their haven't integrated into their communities you think about the economic communities you think about the economic communities you think about the economic impact of this a lot of people are in impact of this a lot of people are in impact of this a lot of people are in detention already a lot of those people detention already a lot of those people detention already a lot of those people should be immediately returned to their

should be immediately returned to their should be immediately returned to their country of origin or at least what is country of origin or at least what is country of origin or at least what is called a safe Third Country so safe called a safe Third Country so safe called a safe Third Country so safe Third Country means even if somebody's Third Country means even if somebody's Third Country means even if somebody's claiming to seek Asylum from political claiming to seek Asylum from political claiming to seek Asylum from political persecution will move them to another persecution will move them to another persecution will move them to another country that doesn't have to be the country that doesn't have to be the country that doesn't have to be the United States of America that they United States of America that they United States of America that they passed through say Mexico before passed through say Mexico before passed through say Mexico before actually coming here other countries actually coming here other countries actually coming here other countries around the world are doing this around the world are doing this around the world are doing this Australia is detaining people they don't Australia is detaining people they don't Australia is detaining people they don't let them out and live a normal joyful let them out and live a normal joyful let them out and live a normal joyful life because they came to the country life because they came to the country life because they came to the country they detained them until their case is they detained them until their case is they detained them until their case is adjudicated well the rates of fraud in adjudicated well the rates of fraud in adjudicated well the rates of fraud in Australia of what people lie about what Australia of what people lie about what Australia of what people lie about what their conditions are is way lower now their conditions are is way lower now their conditions are is way lower now than in the United States because people than in the United States because people than in the United States because people respond to those incentives so I think respond to those incentives so I think respond to those incentives so I think that in some ways people make this sound that in some ways people make this sound that in some ways people make this sound much bigger and scarier than it needs to much bigger and scarier than it needs to much bigger and scarier than it needs to be I fa taken a deeply pragmatic be I fa taken a deeply pragmatic be I fa taken a deeply pragmatic approach and the North Star for me is I approach and the North Star for me is I approach and the North Star for me is I want the policy that helps the United want the policy that helps the United want the policy that helps the United States citizens who are already here States citizens who are already here States citizens who are already here what's that policy clearly that's going what's that policy clearly that's going what's that policy clearly that's going to be a policy that includes a large to be a policy that includes a large to be a policy that includes a large number of deportations I think by number of deportations I think by number of deportations I think by definition it's going to be the largest definition it's going to be the largest definition it's going to be the largest mass deportation in American history mass deportation in American history mass deportation in American history sounds like a punchline at a campaign sounds like a punchline at a campaign sounds like a punchline at a campaign rally but actually it's just a factual rally but actually it's just a factual rally but actually it's just a factual statement that says if we've had the by statement that says if we've had the by statement that says if we've had the by far largest influx of illegal immigrants far largest influx of illegal immigrants far largest influx of illegal immigrants in American history it just stands to in American history it just stands to in American history it just stands to reason it's logic that okay if we're reason it's logic that okay if we're reason it's logic that okay if we're going to fix that we're going to have going to fix that we're going to have going to fix that we're going to have the largest mass deportation in American the largest mass deportation in American the largest mass deportation in American history and we can be rational start history and we can be rational start history and we can be rational start with people who are breaking the law in with people who are breaking the law in with people who are breaking the law in other ways here in the United States other ways here in the United States other ways here in the United States start with people who are already in start with people who are already in start with people who are already in detention or entering detention now that detention or entering detention now that detention or entering detention now that comes at no cost and strict benefit comes at no cost and strict benefit comes at no cost and strict benefit there isn't there isn't even a little there isn't there isn't even a little there isn't there isn't even a little bit of an economic trade-off then you bit of an economic trade-off then you bit of an economic trade-off then you get to areas where you would say okay get to areas where you would say okay get to areas where you would say okay the costs actually continue to outweigh the costs actually continue to outweigh the costs actually continue to outweigh the benefits and that's exactly the way the benefits and that's exactly the way the benefits and that's exactly the way our policy should be guided here I want

our policy should be guided here I want our policy should be guided here I want to do it with in as respectful and as to do it with in as respectful and as to do it with in as respectful and as Humane of a manner as possible I mean Humane of a manner as possible I mean Humane of a manner as possible I mean the reality is I think one of the things the reality is I think one of the things the reality is I think one of the things we got to remember give the example I we got to remember give the example I we got to remember give the example I gave with the Haitian case in gave with the Haitian case in gave with the Haitian case in Springfield town that spent a lot of Springfield town that spent a lot of Springfield town that spent a lot of time in growing up in Ohio I live about time in growing up in Ohio I live about time in growing up in Ohio I live about an hour from there today I don't blame an hour from there today I don't blame an hour from there today I don't blame the individual patients who came here the individual patients who came here the individual patients who came here I'm not saying that they're bad people I'm not saying that they're bad people I'm not saying that they're bad people cuz in that particular case those cuz in that particular case those cuz in that particular case those weren't even people who broke the law in weren't even people who broke the law in weren't even people who broke the law in coming here they came as part of a coming here they came as part of a coming here they came as part of a program called temporary protective program called temporary protective program called temporary protective status now the operative word there is status now the operative word there is status now the operative word there is the first one the first one the first one temporary they have been all kinds of temporary they have been all kinds of temporary they have been all kinds of lawsuits there have been all kinds of lawsuits there have been all kinds of lawsuits there have been all kinds of lawsuits for people who even 8 10 12 14 lawsuits for people who even 8 10 12 14 lawsuits for people who even 8 10 12 14 years after the earthquake in Haiti years after the earthquake in Haiti years after the earthquake in Haiti where many of them came when they're where many of them came when they're where many of them came when they're going to be removed their allegations of going to be removed their allegations of going to be removed their allegations of racial discrimination or otherwise no racial discrimination or otherwise no racial discrimination or otherwise no temporary protective status means it's temporary protective status means it's temporary protective status means it's temporary and we're not abandoning the temporary and we're not abandoning the temporary and we're not abandoning the rule of law when we send them back we're rule of law when we send them back we're rule of law when we send them back we're abandoning the rule of law when we let abandoning the rule of law when we let abandoning the rule of law when we let them stay now if that has a true benefit them stay now if that has a true benefit them stay now if that has a true benefit to the United States of America to the United States of America to the United States of America economically or otherwise go through the economically or otherwise go through the economically or otherwise go through the paths that allow somebody to enter this paths that allow somebody to enter this paths that allow somebody to enter this country for economic reasons but don't country for economic reasons but don't country for economic reasons but don't do it through Asylum based claims or do it through Asylum based claims or do it through Asylum based claims or temporary protected status I think one temporary protected status I think one temporary protected status I think one of the features of our immigration of the features of our immigration of the features of our immigration system right now is it is built on a lie system right now is it is built on a lie system right now is it is built on a lie and it incentivizes lying the reason is and it incentivizes lying the reason is and it incentivizes lying the reason is the arguments for keeping people the the arguments for keeping people the the arguments for keeping people the country if those are economic reasons country if those are economic reasons country if those are economic reasons but the people actually entered using but the people actually entered using but the people actually entered using claims of Asylum or Refugee status those claims of Asylum or Refugee status those claims of Asylum or Refugee status those two things don't match up so just be two things don't match up so just be two things don't match up so just be honest about what our immigration system

honest about what our immigration system honest about what our immigration system actually is I think we do need dramatic actually is I think we do need dramatic actually is I think we do need dramatic reforms to the legal immigration system reforms to the legal immigration system reforms to the legal immigration system to select purposely for the people who to select purposely for the people who to select purposely for the people who are going to actually improve the United are going to actually improve the United are going to actually improve the United States of America I think there are many States of America I think there are many States of America I think there are many people I know some of them right I I people I know some of them right I I people I know some of them right I I gave a story of one guy who I met who is gave a story of one guy who I met who is gave a story of one guy who I met who is a educated at our best universities or a educated at our best universities or a educated at our best universities or among our best universities he went to among our best universities he went to among our best universities he went to Princeton he went to Harvard Business Princeton he went to Harvard Business Princeton he went to Harvard Business School he has a great job in the School he has a great job in the School he has a great job in the investment Community he was a investment Community he was a investment Community he was a professional tennis player he was a professional tennis player he was a professional tennis player he was a concert pianist he could do a Rubik's concert pianist he could do a Rubik's concert pianist he could do a Rubik's Cube in less than a minute I'm not Cube in less than a minute I'm not Cube in less than a minute I'm not making this stuff up these are hard making this stuff up these are hard making this stuff up these are hard facts he can't get a green card in the facts he can't get a green card in the facts he can't get a green card in the United States he's been here for 10 United States he's been here for 10 United States he's been here for 10 years or something like this he asked me years or something like this he asked me years or something like this he asked me for the best advice I could give him I for the best advice I could give him I for the best advice I could give him I unfortunately could not give him the unfortunately could not give him the unfortunately could not give him the actual best advice which would be to actual best advice which would be to actual best advice which would be to just take a flight to Mexico and cross just take a flight to Mexico and cross just take a flight to Mexico and cross the border and claimed to be somebody the border and claimed to be somebody the border and claimed to be somebody who is seeking asylum in the United who is seeking asylum in the United who is seeking asylum in the United States that would that would have been States that would that would have been States that would that would have been morally wrong advice so I didn't give it morally wrong advice so I didn't give it morally wrong advice so I didn't give it to him but practically if you were to him but practically if you were to him but practically if you were giving him advice that would be the best giving him advice that would be the best giving him advice that would be the best advice that you actually could give advice that you actually could give advice that you actually could give somebody which is a broken system on somebody which is a broken system on somebody which is a broken system on both sides people who are going to make both sides people who are going to make both sides people who are going to make those contributions to the United States those contributions to the United States those contributions to the United States and pledge allegiance to the United and pledge allegiance to the United and pledge allegiance to the United States and speak our language and States and speak our language and States and speak our language and assimilate we should have a path for assimilate we should have a path for assimilate we should have a path for them to be able to add value to the them to be able to add value to the them to be able to add value to the United States yet they're not the ones United States yet they're not the ones United States yet they're not the ones who are getting in it's actually the who are getting in it's actually the who are getting in it's actually the people our immigration system selects people our immigration system selects people our immigration system selects for people who are willing to lie that's for people who are willing to lie that's for people who are willing to lie that's what it does selects for people who are what it does selects for people who are what it does selects for people who are willing to say they're seeking Refugee willing to say they're seeking Refugee willing to say they're seeking Refugee status or seeking Asylum when in fact status or seeking Asylum when in fact status or seeking Asylum when in fact they're not and then we have policy they're not and then we have policy they're not and then we have policy makers who Li after the fact using makers who Li after the fact using makers who Li after the fact using economic justifications to keep them economic justifications to keep them economic justifications to keep them here but if it was an economic here but if it was an economic here but if it was an economic justification that should have been the justification that should have been the justification that should have been the criteria you used to bring them in the criteria you used to bring them in the criteria you used to bring them in the first place not this illusion of Asylum first place not this illusion of Asylum first place not this illusion of Asylum or Refugee status there was a case

or Refugee status there was a case or Refugee status there was a case actually even the New York Times actually even the New York Times actually even the New York Times reported on this Believe It or Not of a reported on this Believe It or Not of a reported on this Believe It or Not of a woman who came from woman who came from woman who came from Russia fleeing Vladimir Putin's Russia fleeing Vladimir Putin's Russia fleeing Vladimir Putin's intolerant LGBT intolerant LGBT intolerant LGBT anti-lgbtq regime she was fleeing anti-lgbtq regime she was fleeing anti-lgbtq regime she was fleeing persecution by the evil man Putin she persecution by the evil man Putin she persecution by the evil man Putin she came here and event eventually when she came here and event eventually when she came here and event eventually when she was pressed on the series of Lies it was pressed on the series of Lies it was pressed on the series of Lies it came out that and she was crying finally came out that and she was crying finally came out that and she was crying finally when she broke down and admitted this when she broke down and admitted this when she broke down and admitted this she was like I'm not even gay I don't she was like I'm not even gay I don't she was like I'm not even gay I don't even like gay people that's what she even like gay people that's what she even like gay people that's what she said and yet she was pretending to be said and yet she was pretending to be said and yet she was pretending to be some sort of lgbtq advocate who was some sort of lgbtq advocate who was some sort of lgbtq advocate who was persecuted in Russia when in fact it was persecuted in Russia when in fact it was persecuted in Russia when in fact it was just somebody who was seeking better just somebody who was seeking better just somebody who was seeking better economic conditions in the United States economic conditions in the United States economic conditions in the United States I'm not saying you're wrong to seek I'm not saying you're wrong to seek I'm not saying you're wrong to seek better economic conditions in the United better economic conditions in the United better economic conditions in the United States but you are wrong to lie about it States but you are wrong to lie about it States but you are wrong to lie about it and that's what you're seeing a lot of and that's what you're seeing a lot of and that's what you're seeing a lot of people even in this industry of of sort people even in this industry of of sort people even in this industry of of sort of quote unquote tourism to the United of quote unquote tourism to the United of quote unquote tourism to the United States they're having their kids in the States they're having their kids in the States they're having their kids in the United States they go back to their home United States they go back to their home United States they go back to their home country but their kids enjoy Birthright country but their kids enjoy Birthright country but their kids enjoy Birthright citizenship that's built on a lie you citizenship that's built on a lie you citizenship that's built on a lie you have people claiming to suffer from have people claiming to suffer from have people claiming to suffer from persecution in fact they're just working persecution in fact they're just working persecution in fact they're just working in the United States and then living in in the United States and then living in in the United States and then living in these relative mansions in parts of these relative mansions in parts of these relative mansions in parts of Mexico or Central America after they've Mexico or Central America after they've Mexico or Central America after they've spent four five years making money here spent four five years making money here spent four five years making money here just abandon the LIE let's just have an just abandon the LIE let's just have an just abandon the LIE let's just have an immigration system built on honesty just immigration system built on honesty just immigration system built on honesty just tell the truth if the argument is that tell the truth if the argument is that tell the truth if the argument is that we need more people here for we need more people here for we need more people here for economically filling jobs I'm skeptical economically filling jobs I'm skeptical economically filling jobs I'm skeptical the extent to which a lot of those the extent to which a lot of those the extent to which a lot of those arguments actually end up being true but arguments actually end up being true but arguments actually end up being true but let's have that debate in the open let's have that debate in the open let's have that debate in the open rather than having it through the back rather than having it through the back rather than having it through the back door saying that it's Refugee and Asylum door saying that it's Refugee and Asylum door saying that it's Refugee and Asylum status when we know it's a lie and then status when we know it's a lie and then status when we know it's a lie and then we justify it after the fact by saying we justify it after the fact by saying we justify it after the fact by saying that that economically helps the United that that economically helps the United that that economically helps the United States cut the dishonesty and I just States cut the dishonesty and I just States cut the dishonesty and I just think that that is a policy we would do

think that that is a policy we would do think that that is a policy we would do well to expand every sphere we talk well to expand every sphere we talk well to expand every sphere we talk about from the military-industrial about from the military-industrial about from the military-industrial complex to the rise of the managerial complex to the rise of the managerial complex to the rise of the managerial class to a lot of what our government's class to a lot of what our government's class to a lot of what our government's covered up about our own history to even covered up about our own history to even covered up about our own history to even this question of immigration today just this question of immigration today just this question of immigration today just tell the people the truth and I think tell the people the truth and I think tell the people the truth and I think our government would be better serving our government would be better serving our government would be better serving our people if it did yeah in the way you our people if it did yeah in the way you our people if it did yeah in the way you describe eloquently the immigration describe eloquently the immigration describe eloquently the immigration system is broken in that way that is system is broken in that way that is system is broken in that way that is buil fundamentally on lies but there's buil fundamentally on lies but there's buil fundamentally on lies but there's the other side of it you know illegal the other side of it you know illegal the other side of it you know illegal immigrants are used in political immigrants are used in political immigrants are used in political campaigns for fearmongering for example campaigns for fearmongering for example campaigns for fearmongering for example so what I would like to understand is so what I would like to understand is so what I would like to understand is what is the what is the what is the actual harm that illegal immigrants are actual harm that illegal immigrants are actual harm that illegal immigrants are causing so the the claim one of the more causing so the the claim one of the more causing so the the claim one of the more intense claims uh is of crime and you intense claims uh is of crime and you intense claims uh is of crime and you know I don't I haven't studied this know I don't I haven't studied this know I don't I haven't studied this rigorously but sort of the surface level rigorously but sort of the surface level rigorously but sort of the surface level studies all show that legal and illegal studies all show that legal and illegal studies all show that legal and illegal immigrants commit less crime than americ immigrants commit less crime than americ immigrants commit less crime than americ us I think that is true for legal us I think that is true for legal us I think that is true for legal immigrants I think it's not true for immigrants I think it's not true for immigrants I think it's not true for illegal immigrants that's not what I saw illegal immigrants that's not what I saw illegal immigrants that's not what I saw so I in sort of in this this part of why so I in sort of in this this part of why so I in sort of in this this part of why I wrote this book okay and I mean the I wrote this book okay and I mean the I wrote this book okay and I mean the book is called truths so better Darwell book is called truths so better Darwell book is called truths so better Darwell have well sourced facts in here right have well sourced facts in here right have well sourced facts in here right can't be can't be made up hypotheses can't be can't be made up hypotheses can't be can't be made up hypotheses hard truths and and there's a chapter hard truths and and there's a chapter hard truths and and there's a chapter where even in my own research on it Lex where even in my own research on it Lex where even in my own research on it Lex I me I know a lot about this issue from I me I know a lot about this issue from I me I know a lot about this issue from my time as a presidential candidate but my time as a presidential candidate but my time as a presidential candidate but even in writing the chapter On the even in writing the chapter On the even in writing the chapter On the Border here I learned a lot from a lot

Border here I learned a lot from a lot Border here I learned a lot from a lot of different dimensions and some of of different dimensions and some of of different dimensions and some of which even caused me to revise some of which even caused me to revise some of which even caused me to revise some of my premises going into it okay my main my premises going into it okay my main my premises going into it okay my main thesis in that chapter is forget the thesis in that chapter is forget the thesis in that chapter is forget the demonization of of illegal or legal demonization of of illegal or legal demonization of of illegal or legal immigrants or whatever as you put it immigrants or whatever as you put it immigrants or whatever as you put it right Fe mry just put all that to one right Fe mry just put all that to one right Fe mry just put all that to one side I want an immigration system that side I want an immigration system that side I want an immigration system that is built is built is built on honesty identify what the objective on honesty identify what the objective on honesty identify what the objective is we could debate the objectives we is we could debate the objectives we is we could debate the objectives we might have different opinions on the might have different opinions on the might have different opinions on the objectives some people may say the objectives some people may say the objectives some people may say the objective is the economic growth of the objective is the economic growth of the objective is the economic growth of the United States I make that I air that United States I make that I air that United States I make that I air that argument in this book and I think that argument in this book and I think that argument in this book and I think that that's insufficient personally that's insufficient personally that's insufficient personally personally I think you need the United personally I think you need the United personally I think you need the United States is more than just an economic States is more than just an economic States is more than just an economic zone it is a country it is a nation zone it is a country it is a nation zone it is a country it is a nation bound together by Civic ideas Bill S I bound together by Civic ideas Bill S I bound together by Civic ideas Bill S I think we need to screen not just for think we need to screen not just for think we need to screen not just for immigrants who are going to make immigrants who are going to make immigrants who are going to make economic contributions but those who economic contributions but those who economic contributions but those who speak our language those who are able to speak our language those who are able to speak our language those who are able to assimilate and those who share those assimilate and those who share those assimilate and those who share those Civic ideals and know the US History Civic ideals and know the US History Civic ideals and know the US History even better than the average US citizen even better than the average US citizen even better than the average US citizen who's here that's what I believe but who's here that's what I believe but who's here that's what I believe but even if you disagree with me and say no even if you disagree with me and say no even if you disagree with me and say no no no the sole goal is economic no no the sole goal is economic no no the sole goal is economic production in the United States then at production in the United States then at production in the United States then at least have an immigration system that's least have an immigration system that's least have an immigration system that's honest about that rather than one which honest about that rather than one which honest about that rather than one which claims to solve for that goal by claims to solve for that goal by claims to solve for that goal by bringing in people who are rewarded for bringing in people who are rewarded for bringing in people who are rewarded for being a refugee we should reward the being a refugee we should reward the being a refugee we should reward the people in that model which is I don't people in that model which is I don't people in that model which is I don't even think should be the whole model but even think should be the whole model but even think should be the whole model but even if that were your model reward the even if that were your model reward the even if that were your model reward the people who are demonstr have people who are demonstr have people who are demonstr have demonstrably proven that they would make demonstrably proven that they would make demonstrably proven that they would make economic contributions to the United economic contributions to the United economic contributions to the United States not the people who have States not the people who have States not the people who have demonstrated that they're willing to lie

demonstrated that they're willing to lie demonstrated that they're willing to lie to achieve a goal and right now our to achieve a goal and right now our to achieve a goal and right now our immigration system if it rewards one immigration system if it rewards one immigration system if it rewards one quality over any other there's one quality over any other there's one quality over any other there's one parameter that it rewards over any other parameter that it rewards over any other parameter that it rewards over any other it isn't Civic allegiance to the United it isn't Civic allegiance to the United it isn't Civic allegiance to the United States it isn't fluency in English it States it isn't fluency in English it States it isn't fluency in English it isn't the ability to make an economic isn't the ability to make an economic isn't the ability to make an economic contribution to this country country the contribution to this country country the contribution to this country country the number one attribute human attribute number one attribute human attribute number one attribute human attribute that our immigration system rewards is that our immigration system rewards is that our immigration system rewards is whether or not you are willing to lie whether or not you are willing to lie whether or not you are willing to lie and the people who are telling those and the people who are telling those and the people who are telling those lies about whether they're seeking lies about whether they're seeking lies about whether they're seeking Asylum or not are the ones who are most Asylum or not are the ones who are most Asylum or not are the ones who are most likely to get in and the people who are likely to get in and the people who are likely to get in and the people who are most unwilling to tell those lies are most unwilling to tell those lies are most unwilling to tell those lies are the ones who are actually not getting in the ones who are actually not getting in the ones who are actually not getting in that is a hard uncomfortable truth about that is a hard uncomfortable truth about that is a hard uncomfortable truth about our immigration system and the reason is our immigration system and the reason is our immigration system and the reason is because the law says you only get Asylum because the law says you only get Asylum because the law says you only get Asylum if you're going to face if you're going to face if you're going to face bodily harm or near-term risk of bodily bodily harm or near-term risk of bodily bodily harm or near-term risk of bodily injury based on your religion your injury based on your religion your injury based on your religion your ethnicity or certain other factors and ethnicity or certain other factors and ethnicity or certain other factors and so when you come into the country you're so when you come into the country you're so when you come into the country you're asked do you fulfill that criteria or asked do you fulfill that criteria or asked do you fulfill that criteria or not and the number one way to get into not and the number one way to get into not and the number one way to get into this country is to check the box and say this country is to check the box and say this country is to check the box and say yes so that means just systematically yes so that means just systematically yes so that means just systematically imagine if you're University Harvard or imagine if you're University Harvard or imagine if you're University Harvard or Yale or whatever you're running your Yale or whatever you're running your Yale or whatever you're running your admissions process the number one admissions process the number one admissions process the number one attribute you're selecting for isn't attribute you're selecting for isn't attribute you're selecting for isn't your SAT score it isn't your GPA it your SAT score it isn't your GPA it your SAT score it isn't your GPA it isn't your athletic accomplishments it's isn't your athletic accomplishments it's isn't your athletic accomplishments it's whether or not you're willing to lie on whether or not you're willing to lie on whether or not you're willing to lie on the application you're going to have a the application you're going to have a the application you're going to have a class populated by a bunch of charlatans class populated by a bunch of charlatans class populated by a bunch of charlatans and and and frauds that's exactly what our frauds that's exactly what our frauds that's exactly what our immigration system is doing to the immigration system is doing to the immigration system is doing to the United States of America is it is United States of America is it is United States of America is it is literally selecting for the people who literally selecting for the people who literally selecting for the people who are willing to lie let's say you have are willing to lie let's say you have are willing to lie let's say you have somebody who's a person of Integrity somebody who's a person of Integrity somebody who's a person of Integrity says Okay I want a better life for my says Okay I want a better life for my says Okay I want a better life for my family but I want to teach my kids that family but I want to teach my kids that family but I want to teach my kids that I'm not going to lie or break the law to

I'm not going to lie or break the law to I'm not going to lie or break the law to do it that person is do it that person is do it that person is infinitely less likely to get into the infinitely less likely to get into the infinitely less likely to get into the United States that's I know it sounds um United States that's I know it sounds um United States that's I know it sounds um provocative to frame it that way but it provocative to frame it that way but it provocative to frame it that way but it is is not an opinion it is a fact that is is not an opinion it is a fact that is is not an opinion it is a fact that that is the number one human attribute that is the number one human attribute that is the number one human attribute that our current immigration system is that our current immigration system is that our current immigration system is selecting for I want an immigration selecting for I want an immigration selecting for I want an immigration system centered on honesty in order to system centered on honesty in order to system centered on honesty in order to implement that we require acknowledging implement that we require acknowledging implement that we require acknowledging what the goals of our immigration system what the goals of our immigration system what the goals of our immigration system are in the first place and there we have are in the first place and there we have are in the first place and there we have competing Visions on the right okay competing Visions on the right okay competing Visions on the right okay amongst conservatives there's a rift amongst conservatives there's a rift amongst conservatives there's a rift some conservatives believe I respect some conservatives believe I respect some conservatives believe I respect them for their honesty I disagree with them for their honesty I disagree with them for their honesty I disagree with them believe that the goal of the them believe that the goal of the them believe that the goal of the immigration system should be to in part immigration system should be to in part immigration system should be to in part protect American workers from the protect American workers from the protect American workers from the effects of foreign wage competition that effects of foreign wage competition that effects of foreign wage competition that if we have immigrants going to bring if we have immigrants going to bring if we have immigrants going to bring down prices and we need to protect down prices and we need to protect down prices and we need to protect American workers from the effects of American workers from the effects of American workers from the effects of that downward pressure on that downward pressure on that downward pressure on wages it it's a goal it's a coherent wages it it's a goal it's a coherent wages it it's a goal it's a coherent goal I don't think it's the right goal goal I don't think it's the right goal goal I don't think it's the right goal but many of my friends on the right but many of my friends on the right but many of my friends on the right believe that's a goal but at least it's believe that's a goal but at least it's believe that's a goal but at least it's honest and then we can design an honest honest and then we can design an honest honest and then we can design an honest immigration system to achieve that goal immigration system to achieve that goal immigration system to achieve that goal if that's their goal I have other if that's their goal I have other if that's their goal I have other friends on the right that say the sole friends on the right that say the sole friends on the right that say the sole goal is economic growth nothing else goal is economic growth nothing else goal is economic growth nothing else matters I disagree with that as well my matters I disagree with that as well my matters I disagree with that as well my view is the goal should be whatever view is the goal should be whatever view is the goal should be whatever enriches the Civic quality of the United enriches the Civic quality of the United enriches the Civic quality of the United States of America that includes those States of America that includes those States of America that includes those who know the language know our ideals who know the language know our ideals who know the language know our ideals pledge allegiance to those ideals and pledge allegiance to those ideals and pledge allegiance to those ideals and also willing to make economic also willing to make economic also willing to make economic contributions to the country which is contributions to the country which is contributions to the country which is one of our ideals as well but whatever one of our ideals as well but whatever one of our ideals as well but whatever it is we can have that debate I have a it is we can have that debate I have a it is we can have that debate I have a very different view I don't think it's a very different view I don't think it's a very different view I don't think it's a proper role of immigration policy to proper role of immigration policy to proper role of immigration policy to make it a form of Labor policy because make it a form of Labor policy because make it a form of Labor policy because the United States of America is found on

the United States of America is found on the United States of America is found on Excellence we should be able to compete Excellence we should be able to compete Excellence we should be able to compete but that's a policy debate we can have but that's a policy debate we can have but that's a policy debate we can have but right now we're not even able to but right now we're not even able to but right now we're not even able to have the policy debate because the whole have the policy debate because the whole have the policy debate because the whole immigration policy is built on not only immigration policy is built on not only immigration policy is built on not only a lie but on rewarding those who do lie a lie but on rewarding those who do lie a lie but on rewarding those who do lie and that's what I want to see change and that's what I want to see change and that's what I want to see change there just to linger a little bit on the there just to linger a little bit on the there just to linger a little bit on the demonization uh and to bring an cter demonization uh and to bring an cter demonization uh and to bring an cter into the picture her which I recommend into the picture her which I recommend into the picture her which I recommend uh people should listen to your uh people should listen to your uh people should listen to your conversation with conversation with conversation with her I haven't listened to her much but her I haven't listened to her much but her I haven't listened to her much but she had this thing where she's clearly she had this thing where she's clearly she had this thing where she's clearly admires and respects you as a human admires and respects you as a human admires and respects you as a human being and she's basically saying you're being and she's basically saying you're being and she's basically saying you're one of the good one of the good one of the good ones and this idea that you had this ones and this idea that you had this ones and this idea that you had this brilliant question of like what does it brilliant question of like what does it brilliant question of like what does it mean to be American mhm and she mean to be American mhm and she mean to be American mhm and she basically basically basically said not you said not you said not you VC uh she said well maybe maybe you but VC uh she said well maybe maybe you but VC uh she said well maybe maybe you but not people like you so that whole kind not people like you so that whole kind not people like you so that whole kind of approach to immigration I think is of approach to immigration I think is of approach to immigration I think is really anti- really anti- really anti- meritocratic even anti-American meritocratic even anti-American meritocratic even anti-American anti-American yeah so I want to confront anti-American yeah so I want to confront anti-American yeah so I want to confront this directly because it is a popular this directly because it is a popular this directly because it is a popular current on the American wri the reason current on the American wri the reason current on the American wri the reason I'm not pick on an cter specifically is I'm not pick on an cter specifically is I'm not pick on an cter specifically is I think actually it's a much more L I think actually it's a much more L I think actually it's a much more L shared View and I just give her at least shared View and I just give her at least shared View and I just give her at least credit for willing to articulate it a credit for willing to articulate it a credit for willing to articulate it a view view view that the blood and soil is what makes that the blood and soil is what makes that the blood and soil is what makes for your American identity your genetic for your American identity your genetic for your American identity your genetic lineage and I just reject that view I lineage and I just reject that view I lineage and I just reject that view I think it's anti-American I think what think it's anti-American I think what think it's anti-American I think what makes for an American identity is your makes for an American identity is your makes for an American identity is your Allegiance Your unabiding Allegiance to

Allegiance Your unabiding Allegiance to Allegiance Your unabiding Allegiance to the founding ideals of this country and the founding ideals of this country and the founding ideals of this country and your willingness to pledge allegiance to your willingness to pledge allegiance to your willingness to pledge allegiance to those ideals so those are two different those ideals so those are two different those ideals so those are two different views I I think that there is a view on views I I think that there is a view on views I I think that there is a view on the American right right now the American right right now the American right right now that says that we're not a credal nation that says that we're not a credal nation that says that we're not a credal nation that our nation is not about a Creed that our nation is not about a Creed that our nation is not about a Creed it's about a physical place and a it's about a physical place and a it's about a physical place and a physical physical physical Homeland I think that view fails on Homeland I think that view fails on Homeland I think that view fails on several accounts obviously we're we're a several accounts obviously we're we're a several accounts obviously we're we're a nation every nation has to have a nation every nation has to have a nation every nation has to have a geographic space that it defines as its geographic space that it defines as its geographic space that it defines as its own so obviously we are among other own so obviously we are among other own so obviously we are among other things a geographic space but the things a geographic space but the things a geographic space but the essence of the United States of America essence of the United States of America essence of the United States of America I think is the common Creed the ideals I think is the common Creed the ideals I think is the common Creed the ideals that hold that common Nation together that hold that common Nation together that hold that common Nation together without that a few things happen first without that a few things happen first without that a few things happen first of all American exceptionalism becomes of all American exceptionalism becomes of all American exceptionalism becomes impossible and I'll tell you impossible and I'll tell you impossible and I'll tell you why every other nation is also built on why every other nation is also built on why every other nation is also built on the same idea most Nations have been the same idea most Nations have been the same idea most Nations have been built on common blood and soil arguments built on common blood and soil arguments built on common blood and soil arguments genetic stock of you know Italy or Japan genetic stock of you know Italy or Japan genetic stock of you know Italy or Japan would have a stronger national identity would have a stronger national identity would have a stronger national identity than the United States in that case than the United States in that case than the United States in that case because they have a much longer standing because they have a much longer standing because they have a much longer standing claim on what their genetic lineage claim on what their genetic lineage claim on what their genetic lineage really was the ethnicity of the people really was the ethnicity of the people really was the ethnicity of the people is far more pure in those in those is far more pure in those in those is far more pure in those in those contexts than in the United States so contexts than in the United States so contexts than in the United States so that's the first re American exceptional that's the first re American exceptional that's the first re American exceptional becomes impossible the second is there's becomes impossible the second is there's becomes impossible the second is there's all kinds of contradictions that then all kinds of contradictions that then all kinds of contradictions that then start to emerge if your claim on start to emerge if your claim on start to emerge if your claim on American identity is defined based on American identity is defined based on American identity is defined based on how long you've been here well then the how long you've been here well then the how long you've been here well then the Native Americans would have a far Native Americans would have a far Native Americans would have a far greater claim of being American than greater claim of being American than greater claim of being American than somebody who came here on the Mayflower somebody who came here on the Mayflower somebody who came here on the Mayflower or somebody who came here afterwards now

or somebody who came here afterwards now or somebody who came here afterwards now maybe that blood and soil views inter maybe that blood and soil views inter maybe that blood and soil views inter it's not quite the Native Americans you it's not quite the Native Americans you it's not quite the Native Americans you only have to start at this point and only have to start at this point and only have to start at this point and ended this point so on this view of ended this point so on this view of ended this point so on this view of blood and soil identity has to be okay blood and soil identity has to be okay blood and soil identity has to be okay you couldn't have come before a certain you couldn't have come before a certain you couldn't have come before a certain year then it doesn't count but if you year then it doesn't count but if you year then it doesn't count but if you came after a certain year it doesn't came after a certain year it doesn't came after a certain year it doesn't count either that just becomes highly count either that just becomes highly count either that just becomes highly uncompelling as a view of what American uncompelling as a view of what American uncompelling as a view of what American national identity actually is versus my national identity actually is versus my national identity actually is versus my view that American national identity is view that American national identity is view that American national identity is grounded on whether or not you pledge grounded on whether or not you pledge grounded on whether or not you pledge allegiance to the ideals codified in the allegiance to the ideals codified in the allegiance to the ideals codified in the Declaration of Independence and Declaration of Independence and Declaration of Independence and actualized in the US Constitution and actualized in the US Constitution and actualized in the US Constitution and you know it's been said some of my you know it's been said some of my you know it's been said some of my friends on the right have said things friends on the right have said things friends on the right have said things like you know people will not die for a like you know people will not die for a like you know people will not die for a set of ideals people won't fight for set of ideals people won't fight for set of ideals people won't fight for abstractions or AB act abstractions or AB act abstractions or AB act ideals I actually disagree with that the ideals I actually disagree with that the ideals I actually disagree with that the American Revolution basically disproves American Revolution basically disproves American Revolution basically disproves that the American Revolution was fought that the American Revolution was fought that the American Revolution was fought for anything over abstract for anything over abstract for anything over abstract ideals that said that you know what we ideals that said that you know what we ideals that said that you know what we believe in self-governance and free believe in self-governance and free believe in self-governance and free speech and free exercise of religion speech and free exercise of religion speech and free exercise of religion that's what we believe in the United that's what we believe in the United that's what we believe in the United States which was different from Old States which was different from Old States which was different from Old World England so I do think that there World England so I do think that there World England so I do think that there is this Brewing debate on the right and is this Brewing debate on the right and is this Brewing debate on the right and do I disagree like hell with Anne couter do I disagree like hell with Anne couter do I disagree like hell with Anne couter on this absolutely and did I take on this absolutely and did I take on this absolutely and did I take Serious issue with some of the things Serious issue with some of the things Serious issue with some of the things she told me absolutely but I also she told me absolutely but I also she told me absolutely but I also believe that believe that believe that she had the stones to say if I may say she had the stones to say if I may say she had the stones to say if I may say it that way that things that many on the it that way that things that many on the it that way that things that many on the right believe but haven't quite right believe but haven't quite right believe but haven't quite articulated in the way that she has and articulated in the way that she has and articulated in the way that she has and I think we need to have that debate in I think we need to have that debate in I think we need to have that debate in the open now personally I think most of the open now personally I think most of the open now personally I think most of the conservative movement actually is the conservative movement actually is the conservative movement actually is with me on this but I think it's become with me on this but I think it's become with me on this but I think it's become a very popular counternarrative in the a very popular counternarrative in the a very popular counternarrative in the other direction to say that you know other direction to say that you know other direction to say that you know your vision of American identity is tied

your vision of American identity is tied your vision of American identity is tied is far more physical in nature and to me is far more physical in nature and to me is far more physical in nature and to me I think it is still ideals based in I think it is still ideals based in I think it is still ideals based in nature and I think that that's a good nature and I think that that's a good nature and I think that that's a good debate for the future for us to have in debate for the future for us to have in debate for the future for us to have in the conservative movement and I think the conservative movement and I think the conservative movement and I think it's going to be a defining feature of it's going to be a defining feature of it's going to be a defining feature of you know what direction the conservative you know what direction the conservative you know what direction the conservative movement goes in the future uh quick movement goes in the future uh quick movement goes in the future uh quick pause bath break yeah let me ask you to pause bath break yeah let me ask you to pause bath break yeah let me ask you to uh again steal me on the case for and uh again steal me on the case for and uh again steal me on the case for and against Trump so my biggest criticism against Trump so my biggest criticism against Trump so my biggest criticism for him is uh the fake elector scheme for him is uh the fake elector scheme for him is uh the fake elector scheme the 2020 election and actually the 2020 the 2020 election and actually the 2020 the 2020 election and actually the 2020 election in the way you formulated in election in the way you formulated in election in the way you formulated in the nation of victims it's just the the nation of victims it's just the the nation of victims it's just the entirety of that process instead of entirety of that process instead of entirety of that process instead of focusing on focusing on focusing on winning uh doing a lot of whining I like winning uh doing a lot of whining I like winning uh doing a lot of whining I like people that win not whine even uh when people that win not whine even uh when people that win not whine even uh when the refs are biased in whatever the refs are biased in whatever the refs are biased in whatever Direction so look I think the United Direction so look I think the United Direction so look I think the United States of America I preached this to the States of America I preached this to the States of America I preached this to the left I preach it to my kids we got to left I preach it to my kids we got to left I preach it to my kids we got to accept it on our own side too we're not accept it on our own side too we're not accept it on our own side too we're not going to save this country by being going to save this country by being going to save this country by being victims we're going to save this country victims we're going to save this country victims we're going to save this country by being Victorious okay and I don't by being Victorious okay and I don't by being Victorious okay and I don't care whether it's left-wing victimhood care whether it's left-wing victimhood care whether it's left-wing victimhood right-wing victimhood I'm against right-wing victimhood I'm against right-wing victimhood I'm against victimhood culture the number one factor victimhood culture the number one factor victimhood culture the number one factor that determines whether you achieve that determines whether you achieve that determines whether you achieve something in life is you I believe that something in life is you I believe that something in life is you I believe that it's not the only factor that matters it's not the only factor that matters it's not the only factor that matters there's a lot of other factors that there's a lot of other factors that there's a lot of other factors that affect whether or not you succeed life affect whether or not you succeed life affect whether or not you succeed life is not fair but I tell my kids the same is not fair but I tell my kids the same is not fair but I tell my kids the same thing the number one factor that thing the number one factor that thing the number one factor that determines whether or not you succeed in determines whether or not you succeed in determines whether or not you succeed in achieving your goal is you if I tell to achieving your goal is you if I tell to achieving your goal is you if I tell to my kids and I preach it to the left I'm my kids and I preach it to the left I'm my kids and I preach it to the left I'm going to preach that to our own side as going to preach that to our own side as going to preach that to our own side as well now that being said that's just a

well now that being said that's just a well now that being said that's just a philosophy okay that's a personal philosophy okay that's a personal philosophy okay that's a personal philosophy you asked me to to do philosophy you asked me to to do philosophy you asked me to to do something different and I'm always a fan something different and I'm always a fan something different and I'm always a fan I one of the things that the standard I I one of the things that the standard I I one of the things that the standard I hope that people hold me to when they hope that people hold me to when they hope that people hold me to when they read this book as well as I try to do read this book as well as I try to do read this book as well as I try to do that in this book is to give the best that in this book is to give the best that in this book is to give the best possible argument for the other side you possible argument for the other side you possible argument for the other side you don't want to give some Rinky Dink don't want to give some Rinky Dink don't want to give some Rinky Dink argument for the other side and knock it argument for the other side and knock it argument for the other side and knock it down you want to give the best possible down you want to give the best possible down you want to give the best possible argument for the other side and then argument for the other side and then argument for the other side and then offer your own view or else you don't offer your own view or else you don't offer your own view or else you don't understand your own so you ask me what's understand your own so you ask me what's understand your own so you ask me what's the strongest case against Donald the strongest case against Donald the strongest case against Donald Trump well I I ran for US president Trump well I I ran for US president Trump well I I ran for US president against Donald Trump so I'm going to against Donald Trump so I'm going to against Donald Trump so I'm going to give you what my perspective is I think give you what my perspective is I think give you what my perspective is I think it's nothing of what you hear on MSNBC it's nothing of what you hear on MSNBC it's nothing of what you hear on MSNBC or from the left attacking him to be a or from the left attacking him to be a or from the left attacking him to be a threat to democracy I think all of threat to democracy I think all of threat to democracy I think all of that's actually that's actually that's actually nonsense I actually think it is if you nonsense I actually think it is if you nonsense I actually think it is if you were making that case you know and I I were making that case you know and I I were making that case you know and I I I'm here's my full support as you know I'm here's my full support as you know I'm here's my full support as you know but if you were making that case I think but if you were making that case I think but if you were making that case I think for many voters who are of the Next for many voters who are of the Next for many voters who are of the Next Generation they're asking a question Generation they're asking a question Generation they're asking a question about how are you going to understand about how are you going to understand about how are you going to understand the position that I'm in as a member of the position that I'm in as a member of the position that I'm in as a member of a new generation the same criticism they a new generation the same criticism they a new generation the same criticism they had of Biden they could say oh well are had of Biden they could say oh well are had of Biden they could say oh well are you too old are you from a different you too old are you from a different you too old are you from a different generation that's too far removed from generation that's too far removed from generation that's too far removed from my generation's concerns and I think my generation's concerns and I think my generation's concerns and I think that that's in many ways a factor that that that's in many ways a factor that that that's in many ways a factor that weighs on that was weighing on both weighs on that was weighing on both weighs on that was weighing on both Trump and Biden but when they played the Trump and Biden but when they played the Trump and Biden but when they played the trick of swapping out Joe Biden it left trick of swapping out Joe Biden it left trick of swapping out Joe Biden it left that issue much more on the table for that issue much more on the table for that issue much more on the table for Donald Trump so you're asking me to Donald Trump so you're asking me to Donald Trump so you're asking me to steal man it that's what I would say is steal man it that's what I would say is steal man it that's what I would say is that when I look at what's the number that when I look at what's the number that when I look at what's the number one issue that I would need to persuade one issue that I would need to persuade one issue that I would need to persuade independent voters of to say that no no independent voters of to say that no no independent voters of to say that no no no this is still the right choices even

no this is still the right choices even no this is still the right choices even though the other side claims to offer a though the other side claims to offer a though the other side claims to offer a new generation of leadership here's new generation of leadership here's new generation of leadership here's somebody who is you know one of the somebody who is you know one of the somebody who is you know one of the older presidents we all have had who was older presidents we all have had who was older presidents we all have had who was elected how do we convince those people elected how do we convince those people elected how do we convince those people to vote for him that's what I would give to vote for him that's what I would give to vote for him that's what I would give you in that category right but I I get you in that category right but I I get you in that category right but I I get it and uh you share a lot of ideas with it and uh you share a lot of ideas with it and uh you share a lot of ideas with Donald Trump so I get when you're Donald Trump so I get when you're Donald Trump so I get when you're running for president that you would say running for president that you would say running for president that you would say that kind of thing but there's you know that kind of thing but there's you know that kind of thing but there's you know there's other criticism you could there's other criticism you could there's other criticism you could provide and again on the 2020 election provide and again on the 2020 election provide and again on the 2020 election let me ask you I mean you spoke to let me ask you I mean you spoke to let me ask you I mean you spoke to Donald Trump recently what's your top Donald Trump recently what's your top Donald Trump recently what's your top objection to potentially voting for objection to potentially voting for objection to potentially voting for Donald Trump and and let me see if I can Donald Trump and and let me see if I can Donald Trump and and let me see if I can address that 2020 election and not in address that 2020 election and not in address that 2020 election and not in the the the uh what is it TDS kind of objection it's uh what is it TDS kind of objection it's uh what is it TDS kind of objection it's just I don't think there's clear just I don't think there's clear just I don't think there's clear definitive evidence that there was uh definitive evidence that there was uh definitive evidence that there was uh voter fraud let me ask you about a voter fraud let me ask you about a voter fraud let me ask you about a different area hold on a second hold on different area hold on a second hold on different area hold on a second hold on a second I think there's a lot of a second I think there's a lot of a second I think there's a lot of interesting topics about the influence interesting topics about the influence interesting topics about the influence of media of uh Tech and so on but I want of media of uh Tech and so on but I want of media of uh Tech and so on but I want a president that has a good clear a president that has a good clear a president that has a good clear relationship with the truth and knows relationship with the truth and knows relationship with the truth and knows what truth is what is true and what is what truth is what is true and what is what truth is what is true and what is not true and moreover I want a person not true and moreover I want a person not true and moreover I want a person who doesn't play victim like you said who doesn't play victim like you said who doesn't play victim like you said who focuses on winning and winning big who focuses on winning and winning big who focuses on winning and winning big and if they and if they and if they lose like Walk Away With Honor and win lose like Walk Away With Honor and win lose like Walk Away With Honor and win bigger next time or like channel that bigger next time or like channel that bigger next time or like channel that into growth and winning winning in some

into growth and winning winning in some into growth and winning winning in some other direction so just like the other direction so just like the other direction so just like the strength of being able to give strength of being able to give strength of being able to give everything you got to win and walk away everything you got to win and walk away everything you got to win and walk away With Honor if you lose and everything With Honor if you lose and everything With Honor if you lose and everything that happened around 2020 election is that happened around 2020 election is that happened around 2020 election is just goes against that to me so I'll just goes against that to me so I'll just goes against that to me so I'll respond to that sure obviously I'm not respond to that sure obviously I'm not respond to that sure obviously I'm not the candidate but I'm going to give you the candidate but I'm going to give you the candidate but I'm going to give you my perspective my perspective my perspective nonetheless I think we have seen some nonetheless I think we have seen some nonetheless I think we have seen some growth from Donald Trump over that first growth from Donald Trump over that first growth from Donald Trump over that first term and the experience of the 2020 term and the experience of the 2020 term and the experience of the 2020 election and you hear a lot of that on election and you hear a lot of that on election and you hear a lot of that on the campaign TR I heard a lot of that the campaign TR I heard a lot of that the campaign TR I heard a lot of that even in the conversation that he had even in the conversation that he had even in the conversation that he had with you I think he is more ambitious with you I think he is more ambitious with you I think he is more ambitious for that second term than he was for for that second term than he was for for that second term than he was for that first term so I thought that was that first term so I thought that was that first term so I thought that was the most interesting part of what you the most interesting part of what you the most interesting part of what you just said is you're looking for somebody just said is you're looking for somebody just said is you're looking for somebody who has growth from their own who has growth from their own who has growth from their own experiences say what you will I have experiences say what you will I have experiences say what you will I have seen personally I believe some seen personally I believe some seen personally I believe some meaningful level of personal growth and meaningful level of personal growth and meaningful level of personal growth and ambition for what Donald Trump hopes to ambition for what Donald Trump hopes to ambition for what Donald Trump hopes to achieve for the country in the second achieve for the country in the second achieve for the country in the second term that he wasn't able to for one term that he wasn't able to for one term that he wasn't able to for one reason or another you know Co you could reason or another you know Co you could reason or another you know Co you could put a lot of different things on it but put a lot of different things on it but put a lot of different things on it but in that first term now I think the facts in that first term now I think the facts in that first term now I think the facts of the backdrop of the election actually of the backdrop of the election actually of the backdrop of the election actually like really do matter I don't think you like really do matter I don't think you like really do matter I don't think you can isolate one particular aspect of can isolate one particular aspect of can isolate one particular aspect of criticizing the 2020 election without criticizing the 2020 election without criticizing the 2020 election without looking at it holistically on the eve of looking at it holistically on the eve of looking at it holistically on the eve of the 2020 presidential election we saw a the 2020 presidential election we saw a the 2020 presidential election we saw a systematic bureaucratically and systematic bureaucratically and systematic bureaucratically and government AED suppression of probably government AED suppression of probably government AED suppression of probably the single most important piece of the single most important piece of the single most important piece of information released on the eve of that

information released on the eve of that information released on the eve of that election the hunter Biden laptop story election the hunter Biden laptop story election the hunter Biden laptop story revealing potentially a compromised US revealing potentially a compromised US revealing potentially a compromised US president presidential candidate his president presidential candidate his president presidential candidate his family was compromised by Foreign family was compromised by Foreign family was compromised by Foreign interests and it was suppressed as interests and it was suppressed as interests and it was suppressed as misinformation by every major tech misinformation by every major tech misinformation by every major tech company the New York Post had its own company the New York Post had its own company the New York Post had its own Twitter account locked at that time and Twitter account locked at that time and Twitter account locked at that time and we now know that many of the censorship we now know that many of the censorship we now know that many of the censorship decisions made in the year 20120 were decisions made in the year 20120 were decisions made in the year 20120 were actually made at behest of us actually made at behest of us actually made at behest of us bureaucratic actors in the Deep State bureaucratic actors in the Deep State bureaucratic actors in the Deep State threatening those tech companies to do threatening those tech companies to do threatening those tech companies to do it or else those tech companies would it or else those tech companies would it or else those tech companies would face consequence I think it might be the face consequence I think it might be the face consequence I think it might be the most undemocratic thing that's happened most undemocratic thing that's happened most undemocratic thing that's happened in the history of our country actually in the history of our country actually in the history of our country actually is the way in which government actors is the way in which government actors is the way in which government actors who were never elected to the government who were never elected to the government who were never elected to the government used private sector actors to suppress used private sector actors to suppress used private sector actors to suppress information on the eve of an election information on the eve of an election information on the eve of an election that based on polling afterwards likely that based on polling afterwards likely that based on polling afterwards likely did influence the outcome of the 2020 did influence the outcome of the 2020 did influence the outcome of the 2020 presidential election that was election presidential election that was election presidential election that was election interference of the highest order so I interference of the highest order so I interference of the highest order so I think that that's just a hard fact that think that that's just a hard fact that think that that's just a hard fact that we have to contend with and I think a we have to contend with and I think a we have to contend with and I think a lot of what you've heard in terms of lot of what you've heard in terms of lot of what you've heard in terms of complaints about the 2020 election complaints about the 2020 election complaints about the 2020 election whatever those complaints are have been whatever those complaints are have been whatever those complaints are have been take against the backdrop of large take against the backdrop of large take against the backdrop of large technology companies interfering in that technology companies interfering in that technology companies interfering in that election in a way that I think did have election in a way that I think did have election in a way that I think did have an impact on the outcome I personally an impact on the outcome I personally an impact on the outcome I personally believe if the Hun Biden laptop story believe if the Hun Biden laptop story believe if the Hun Biden laptop story had not been suppressed and censored I had not been suppressed and censored I had not been suppressed and censored I think Donald Trump would have been think Donald Trump would have been think Donald Trump would have been unambiguous I think the president of the unambiguous I think the president of the unambiguous I think the president of the United States right now would be Donald United States right now would be Donald United States right now would be Donald Trump no doubt about it in my mind if Trump no doubt about it in my mind if Trump no doubt about it in my mind if you look at polling before and after and you look at polling before and after and you look at polling before and after and the impact that would have had on the the impact that would have had on the the impact that would have had on the independent voter now you look at okay

independent voter now you look at okay independent voter now you look at okay let's talk about constructive Solutions let's talk about constructive Solutions let's talk about constructive Solutions because I care about moving the country because I care about moving the country because I care about moving the country forward what is a constructive solution forward what is a constructive solution forward what is a constructive solution to this issue of concerns about election to this issue of concerns about election to this issue of concerns about election Integrity here's one single day voting Integrity here's one single day voting Integrity here's one single day voting on Election Day as a national holiday on Election Day as a national holiday on Election Day as a national holiday with paper ballots and government issued with paper ballots and government issued with paper ballots and government issued voter ID to match the voter file I favor voter ID to match the voter file I favor voter ID to match the voter file I favor that we do it even in Puerto Rico which that we do it even in Puerto Rico which that we do it even in Puerto Rico which is the territory of the United States is the territory of the United States is the territory of the United States why not do that everywhere in the United why not do that everywhere in the United why not do that everywhere in the United States and I'll make a pledge I'll do it States and I'll make a pledge I'll do it States and I'll make a pledge I'll do it right here right my right here right my right here right my pledgees as a leader in our movement I pledgees as a leader in our movement I pledgees as a leader in our movement I will do will do will do everything in my power to make sure we everything in my power to make sure we everything in my power to make sure we are done complaining about stolen are done complaining about stolen are done complaining about stolen elections if we get to that simple place elections if we get to that simple place elections if we get to that simple place of basic election security measures I of basic election security measures I of basic election security measures I think they'd be unifying too make think they'd be unifying too make think they'd be unifying too make Election Day a national holiday that Election Day a national holiday that Election Day a national holiday that unites us around our Civic purpose one unites us around our Civic purpose one unites us around our Civic purpose one day single day voting on Election Day is day single day voting on Election Day is day single day voting on Election Day is a national holiday with paper ballots a national holiday with paper ballots a national holiday with paper ballots and government issued voter ID to match and government issued voter ID to match and government issued voter ID to match the voter file let's get there as a the voter file let's get there as a the voter file let's get there as a country and you have my word I will lead country and you have my word I will lead country and you have my word I will lead our movement in whatever way I can to our movement in whatever way I can to our movement in whatever way I can to make sure we are done complaining about make sure we are done complaining about make sure we are done complaining about Stone elections and fake ballots and I Stone elections and fake ballots and I Stone elections and fake ballots and I think the fact that you see resistance think the fact that you see resistance think the fact that you see resistance to that proposal which is otherwise very to that proposal which is otherwise very to that proposal which is otherwise very practical very reasonable nonpartisan practical very reasonable nonpartisan practical very reasonable nonpartisan proposal I think the fact of that proposal I think the fact of that proposal I think the fact of that resistance actually provokes a lot of resistance actually provokes a lot of resistance actually provokes a lot of understandable understandable understandable skepticism understandable skepticism of skepticism understandable skepticism of skepticism understandable skepticism of okay what what else is actually going on

okay what what else is actually going on okay what what else is actually going on if not if not that what exactly is going if not if not that what exactly is going if not if not that what exactly is going on here well I think I I agree with a on here well I think I I agree with a on here well I think I I agree with a lot of things you said uh probably lot of things you said uh probably lot of things you said uh probably disagree but it's hard to disagree with disagree but it's hard to disagree with disagree but it's hard to disagree with the hunter Biden laptop story whether the hunter Biden laptop story whether the hunter Biden laptop story whether that would have changed or result that would have changed or result that would have changed or result obviously I I looked at some post- obviously I I looked at some post- obviously I I looked at some post- election polling about the views that election polling about the views that election polling about the views that that would have had that would have had that would have had and I I I can't prove that to you but and I I I can't prove that to you but and I I I can't prove that to you but that's my instinct it's my opinion I that's my instinct it's my opinion I that's my instinct it's my opinion I think there's probably that's just one think there's probably that's just one think there's probably that's just one example um maybe a sexy example of a example um maybe a sexy example of a example um maybe a sexy example of a bias in the in the complex of the media bias in the in the complex of the media bias in the in the complex of the media and there's in the other direction too and there's in the other direction too and there's in the other direction too but uh probably there's bias it's hard but uh probably there's bias it's hard but uh probably there's bias it's hard to characterize bias let me ask you one to characterize bias let me ask you one to characterize bias let me ask you one question about because there's bias is question about because there's bias is question about because there's bias is one thing bias and Reporting censorship one thing bias and Reporting censorship one thing bias and Reporting censorship is another so I would I would be is another so I would I would be is another so I would I would be open-minded to hearing an instance of open-minded to hearing an instance of open-minded to hearing an instance of and if I did hear it I would condemn it and if I did hear it I would condemn it and if I did hear it I would condemn it of the of the of the government systematically government systematically government systematically ordering tech companies to suppress ordering tech companies to suppress ordering tech companies to suppress information that was favorable to information that was favorable to information that was favorable to Democrats suppress that information to Democrats suppress that information to Democrats suppress that information to lift up Republicans if there was an lift up Republicans if there was an lift up Republicans if there was an instance that we know of government instance that we know of government instance that we know of government bureaucrats that were ordering bureaucrats that were ordering bureaucrats that were ordering technology companies covertly to silence technology companies covertly to silence technology companies covertly to silence information that voters otherwise would information that voters otherwise would information that voters otherwise would have had to Advantage Republicans at The have had to Advantage Republicans at The have had to Advantage Republicans at The Ballot Box to censor it I would be Ballot Box to censor it I would be Ballot Box to censor it I would be against that and I would condemn that against that and I would condemn that against that and I would condemn that with equal force as I do to the with equal force as I do to the with equal force as I do to the suppression of the hunter B laptop story suppression of the hunter B laptop story suppression of the hunter B laptop story suppression and censorship of the origin suppression and censorship of the origin suppression and censorship of the origin of covid-19 all happened in 2020 these

of covid-19 all happened in 2020 these of covid-19 all happened in 2020 these are hard are hard are hard facts I'm not aware of one instance if facts I'm not aware of one instance if facts I'm not aware of one instance if you are aware of one I would let me know you are aware of one I would let me know you are aware of one I would let me know cuz I would condemn it most people in cuz I would condemn it most people in cuz I would condemn it most people in tech companies are privately their tech companies are privately their tech companies are privately their political persuasion is on the left and political persuasion is on the left and political persuasion is on the left and most journalists majority of journalists most journalists majority of journalists most journalists majority of journalists are on the are on the are on the left but to characterize the actual left but to characterize the actual left but to characterize the actual reporting and the impact of the reporting and the impact of the reporting and the impact of the reporting in the media and the impact of reporting in the media and the impact of reporting in the media and the impact of the the the censorship is difficult to do but that's censorship is difficult to do but that's censorship is difficult to do but that's a real problem just like we talked about a real problem just like we talked about a real problem just like we talked about a real problem in Immigration but a real problem in Immigration but a real problem in Immigration but there's two different problems I just there's two different problems I just there's two different problems I just want to sort them out right because I want to sort them out right because I want to sort them out right because I have a problem with both you you talked have a problem with both you you talked have a problem with both you you talked about two issues I think both are about two issues I think both are about two issues I think both are important but they're different issues important but they're different issues important but they're different issues one is bias in reporting one is one is bias in reporting one is one is bias in reporting one is censorship of information so bias in censorship of information so bias in censorship of information so bias in reporting I felt certainly the recent reporting I felt certainly the recent reporting I felt certainly the recent presidential debate moderated by ABC was presidential debate moderated by ABC was presidential debate moderated by ABC was biased in the way that it was biased in the way that it was biased in the way that it was conducted but that's a different issue conducted but that's a different issue conducted but that's a different issue from saying that voters don't get access from saying that voters don't get access from saying that voters don't get access to information through any source to information through any source to information through any source so this hun bid laptop store who we now so this hun bid laptop store who we now so this hun bid laptop store who we now know that it contains evidence of know that it contains evidence of know that it contains evidence of foreign foreign foreign interference in potentially the Biden interference in potentially the Biden interference in potentially the Biden Administration and their fam's incentive Administration and their fam's incentive Administration and their fam's incentive structure that story was systematically structure that story was systematically structure that story was systematically suppressed so in the United States of suppressed so in the United States of suppressed so in the United States of America if you wanted to find that on America if you wanted to find that on America if you wanted to find that on the internet through any major social the internet through any major social the internet through any major social media platform or through even Google media platform or through even Google media platform or through even Google search that story was suppressed or search that story was suppressed or search that story was suppressed or downplayed algorithmically that you

downplayed algorithmically that you downplayed algorithmically that you couldn't see it even on Twitter if if couldn't see it even on Twitter if if couldn't see it even on Twitter if if you tried to send it via direct message you tried to send it via direct message you tried to send it via direct message that's the equivalent of email right that's the equivalent of email right that's the equivalent of email right sending a peer-to-peer message they sending a peer-to-peer message they sending a peer-to-peer message they blocked you from even being able to send blocked you from even being able to send blocked you from even being able to send that story using private that story using private that story using private messages that I think is a different messages that I think is a different messages that I think is a different level of concern that's not bias at that level of concern that's not bias at that level of concern that's not bias at that point that's outright interference in point that's outright interference in point that's outright interference in whether or not you know that's out right whether or not you know that's out right whether or not you know that's out right interference in the election let's do a interference in the election let's do a interference in the election let's do a thought experiment here let's suppose thought experiment here let's suppose thought experiment here let's suppose that Russia orchestrated that what would that Russia orchestrated that what would that Russia orchestrated that what would the backlash be let's say the Russian the backlash be let's say the Russian the backlash be let's say the Russian government orchestrated the US election government orchestrated the US election government orchestrated the US election was they interfered in it by saying that was they interfered in it by saying that was they interfered in it by saying that tech companies they worked with them tech companies they worked with them tech companies they worked with them covertly to stop US citizens from being covertly to stop US citizens from being covertly to stop US citizens from being able to see information on the eve of an able to see information on the eve of an able to see information on the eve of an election there would be a mass uproar in election there would be a mass uproar in election there would be a mass uproar in this country if the Russian government this country if the Russian government this country if the Russian government orchestrated that well if actors in the orchestrated that well if actors in the orchestrated that well if actors in the US government bureaucracy or the US US government bureaucracy or the US US government bureaucracy or the US technology industry bureaucracy technology industry bureaucracy technology industry bureaucracy orchestrated the same thing then we orchestrated the same thing then we orchestrated the same thing then we can't apply a different standard to say can't apply a different standard to say can't apply a different standard to say that if Russia did it it's really bad that if Russia did it it's really bad that if Russia did it it's really bad and interfered in our election but if it and interfered in our election but if it and interfered in our election but if it happened right here in the United States happened right here in the United States happened right here in the United States of America and by the way they BL CL of America and by the way they BL CL of America and by the way they BL CL Russia for it falsely on the Russian Russia for it falsely on the Russian Russia for it falsely on the Russian disinformation of the hunb laptop story disinformation of the hunb laptop story disinformation of the hunb laptop story that was false claim we have to apply that was false claim we have to apply that was false claim we have to apply the same standard in both cases and so the same standard in both cases and so the same standard in both cases and so the fact that if that were Russian the fact that if that were Russian the fact that if that were Russian interference it would have been an interference it would have been an interference it would have been an outcry but now it happened domestically outcry but now it happened domestically outcry but now it happened domestically and we just call that hey it's a little and we just call that hey it's a little and we just call that hey it's a little bit of bias ahead of an election I don't bit of bias ahead of an election I don't bit of bias ahead of an election I don't think that that's a fair think that that's a fair think that that's a fair characterization of how important that characterization of how important that characterization of how important that event was okay so the the connection of event was okay so the the connection of event was okay so the the connection of government to platform is a real should government to platform is a real should government to platform is a real should not exist the government FBI or anybody

not exist the government FBI or anybody not exist the government FBI or anybody else should not be able to pressure else should not be able to pressure else should not be able to pressure platforms to censor information yes we platforms to censor information yes we platforms to censor information yes we could talk about Paul durov and the could talk about Paul durov and the could talk about Paul durov and the censorship there there there should not censorship there there there should not censorship there there there should not be any censorship and there's not should be any censorship and there's not should be any censorship and there's not should not be media bias and your right to not be media bias and your right to not be media bias and your right to complain if there is media bias and we complain if there is media bias and we complain if there is media bias and we can lay it out in the open and try to can lay it out in the open and try to can lay it out in the open and try to fix that system that said the voter fix that system that said the voter fix that system that said the voter fraud thing you you can't write a wrong fraud thing you you can't write a wrong fraud thing you you can't write a wrong by doing another wrong you can't just if by doing another wrong you can't just if by doing another wrong you can't just if there's some shitty Shady stuff going on there's some shitty Shady stuff going on there's some shitty Shady stuff going on in the media and the censorship complex in the media and the censorship complex in the media and the censorship complex you can't just make up you can't do you can't just make up you can't do you can't just make up you can't do the fake fake elector scheme and then do the fake fake elector scheme and then do the fake fake elector scheme and then do a lot of shady crappy behavior during a lot of shady crappy behavior during a lot of shady crappy behavior during January 6th and try to like shortcut January 6th and try to like shortcut January 6th and try to like shortcut your way just cuz your friend is your way just cuz your friend is your way just cuz your friend is cheating a monopoly when you're playing cheating a monopoly when you're playing cheating a monopoly when you're playing Monopoly you can't cheat you shouldn't Monopoly you can't cheat you shouldn't Monopoly you can't cheat you shouldn't cheat yourself you should be honest and cheat yourself you should be honest and cheat yourself you should be honest and like with honor and use your platform to like with honor and use your platform to like with honor and use your platform to uh help fix the system versus like cheat uh help fix the system versus like cheat uh help fix the system versus like cheat your way so here's my view is has any us your way so here's my view is has any us your way so here's my view is has any us politician ever been perfect throughout politician ever been perfect throughout politician ever been perfect throughout the course of American history no but do the course of American history no but do the course of American history no but do you want to if you want to understand you want to if you want to understand you want to if you want to understand the essence of what was going around in the essence of what was going around in the essence of what was going around in 2020 the mindset of the country we had a 2020 the mindset of the country we had a 2020 the mindset of the country we had a year where people in this country were year where people in this country were year where people in this country were systematically locked down told to shut systematically locked down told to shut systematically locked down told to shut up sit down do as they're told unless up sit down do as they're told unless up sit down do as they're told unless they're BLM or anti for riers in which they're BLM or anti for riers in which they're BLM or anti for riers in which case it's perfectly fine for them to case it's perfectly fine for them to case it's perfectly fine for them to burn cities down we were told that we're burn cities down we were told that we're burn cities down we were told that we're going to have an election a free and going to have an election a free and going to have an election a free and fair election and then they were denied fair election and then they were denied fair election and then they were denied information systematically heading into

information systematically heading into information systematically heading into that election that election that election which was really important and in this which was really important and in this which was really important and in this case damning information about one of case damning information about one of case damning information about one of the parties and then you tell these the parties and then you tell these the parties and then you tell these people that they still have to continue people that they still have to continue people that they still have to continue to shut up and comply that creates I to shut up and comply that creates I to shut up and comply that creates I think a real culture of deep frustration think a real culture of deep frustration think a real culture of deep frustration in the United States of America and I in the United States of America and I in the United States of America and I think that the reaction to systematic think that the reaction to systematic think that the reaction to systematic censorship is never good history teaches censorship is never good history teaches censorship is never good history teaches us that it's not good in the United us that it's not good in the United us that it's not good in the United States it's not good at other points in States it's not good at other points in States it's not good at other points in the history of the United States the the history of the United States the the history of the United States the reaction to systematic coordinated reaction to systematic coordinated reaction to systematic coordinated censorship and restraints and the censorship and restraints and the censorship and restraints and the freedom of a free people is never good freedom of a free people is never good freedom of a free people is never good and if you want to really understand and if you want to really understand and if you want to really understand what happened if one really wants to get what happened if one really wants to get what happened if one really wants to get to the bottom of it rather than you know to the bottom of it rather than you know to the bottom of it rather than you know figuring out who to point fingers at figuring out who to point fingers at figuring out who to point fingers at that really was the essence of the that really was the essence of the that really was the essence of the national malaise at the end of 20120 is national malaise at the end of 20120 is national malaise at the end of 20120 is it was a year of unjust policies it was a year of unjust policies it was a year of unjust policies including covid-19 lockdowns systematic including covid-19 lockdowns systematic including covid-19 lockdowns systematic lies about it lies about the election lies about it lies about the election lies about it lies about the election that created a level of public that created a level of public that created a level of public frustration that I think frustration that I think frustration that I think was understandable was understandable was understandable now the job of leaders is to how do you now the job of leaders is to how do you now the job of leaders is to how do you channel that in the most productive channel that in the most productive channel that in the most productive Direction possible and to your question Direction possible and to your question Direction possible and to your question you know to the independent voter out you know to the independent voter out you know to the independent voter out there evaluating as you are do I think there evaluating as you are do I think there evaluating as you are do I think that Donald Trump has exhibited a lot of that Donald Trump has exhibited a lot of that Donald Trump has exhibited a lot of growth based on his experience in his growth based on his experience in his growth based on his experience in his first term and what he hopes to achieve first term and what he hopes to achieve first term and what he hopes to achieve in his second term I think the answer is in his second term I think the answer is in his second term I think the answer is absolutely yes and so even if you don't absolutely yes and so even if you don't absolutely yes and so even if you don't agree with everything that he said or agree with everything that he said or agree with everything that he said or done in the choice ahead of us in this done in the choice ahead of us in this done in the choice ahead of us in this election I still believe he's election I still believe he's election I still believe he's unambiguously the best best choice to

unambiguously the best best choice to unambiguously the best best choice to revive that sense of national pride and revive that sense of national pride and revive that sense of national pride and also prosperity in our country so people also prosperity in our country so people also prosperity in our country so people aren't in the condition where they're aren't in the condition where they're aren't in the condition where they're suffering at behest of government suffering at behest of government suffering at behest of government policies that leave them angry and policies that leave them angry and policies that leave them angry and channel that anger in other unproductive channel that anger in other unproductive channel that anger in other unproductive ways no the best way to do it is ways no the best way to do it is ways no the best way to do it is actually actions do speak louder than actually actions do speak louder than actually actions do speak louder than words implement the policies that make words implement the policies that make words implement the policies that make people's lives better and I do think people's lives better and I do think people's lives better and I do think that that's the next step of how we best that that's the next step of how we best that that's the next step of how we best save the country are you worried if in save the country are you worried if in save the country are you worried if in this election it's a close this election it's a close this election it's a close election and uh election and uh election and uh Donald Trump loses by a whisker that Donald Trump loses by a whisker that Donald Trump loses by a whisker that there's chaos that's that's Unleashed there's chaos that's that's Unleashed there's chaos that's that's Unleashed and how do we minimize the chance of and how do we minimize the chance of and how do we minimize the chance of that I mean I I don't think that that's that I mean I I don't think that that's that I mean I I don't think that that's a um concern to frame narrowly in the a um concern to frame narrowly in the a um concern to frame narrowly in the context of Donald Trump winning it or context of Donald Trump winning it or context of Donald Trump winning it or losing it by a whisker I think this is a losing it by a whisker I think this is a losing it by a whisker I think this is a man who in the last couple of months in man who in the last couple of months in man who in the last couple of months in a span of two months has faced two a span of two months has faced two a span of two months has faced two assassination attempts and we're not assassination attempts and we're not assassination attempts and we're not talking about theoretical attempts we're talking about theoretical attempts we're talking about theoretical attempts we're talking about gunshots fired that is talking about gunshots fired that is talking about gunshots fired that is history changing in the context of history changing in the context of history changing in the context of American History we haven't seen that in American History we haven't seen that in American History we haven't seen that in a generation and yet now that has become a generation and yet now that has become a generation and yet now that has become normalized in the US so do I worry we're normalized in the US so do I worry we're normalized in the US so do I worry we're skating on thin ice as a country I do I skating on thin ice as a country I do I skating on thin ice as a country I do I do think it is a little bit strange to do think it is a little bit strange to do think it is a little bit strange to obsess over our concerns or national or obsess over our concerns or national or obsess over our concerns or national or media concerns over Donald Trump when in media concerns over Donald Trump when in media concerns over Donald Trump when in fact he's the one on the receiving end fact he's the one on the receiving end fact he's the one on the receiving end of fire from as salant who reported l of fire from as salant who reported l of fire from as salant who reported l are saying exactly the kinds of things

are saying exactly the kinds of things are saying exactly the kinds of things about him that you hear from the about him that you hear from the about him that you hear from the Democratic machine and I do think that Democratic machine and I do think that Democratic machine and I do think that it is irresponsible at least for the it is irresponsible at least for the it is irresponsible at least for the Democratic party to make their Core case Democratic party to make their Core case Democratic party to make their Core case against Donald Trump it was Joe Biden's against Donald Trump it was Joe Biden's against Donald Trump it was Joe Biden's entire message for years that he's a entire message for years that he's a entire message for years that he's a threat to democracy and to the existence threat to democracy and to the existence threat to democracy and to the existence of America well if you keep saying that of America well if you keep saying that of America well if you keep saying that about somebody against the backdrop about somebody against the backdrop about somebody against the backdrop conditions that we live in as a country conditions that we live in as a country conditions that we live in as a country I don't think that's good for a nation I don't think that's good for a nation I don't think that's good for a nation and so do I have concerns about the and so do I have concerns about the and so do I have concerns about the future of the country do I think we're future of the country do I think we're future of the country do I think we're skating on thin ice absolutely and I skating on thin ice absolutely and I skating on thin ice absolutely and I think the best way around it is really think the best way around it is really think the best way around it is really through it through it in this election through it through it in this election through it through it in this election win by a landslide I think a unifying win by a landslide I think a unifying win by a landslide I think a unifying Landslide could be the best thing that Landslide could be the best thing that Landslide could be the best thing that happens for this country like Reagan happens for this country like Reagan happens for this country like Reagan delivered in 1980 and then again in delivered in 1980 and then again in delivered in 1980 and then again in 1984 and in a very practical note a 1984 and in a very practical note a 1984 and in a very practical note a landslide minus some Shenanigans is landslide minus some Shenanigans is landslide minus some Shenanigans is still going to be a victory that I think still going to be a victory that I think still going to be a victory that I think is how we unite this country and so I is how we unite this country and so I is how we unite this country and so I don't think you know don't think you know don't think you know 50.1 margin where cable news is 50.1 margin where cable news is 50.1 margin where cable news is declaring the winner 6 days after the declaring the winner 6 days after the declaring the winner 6 days after the election I don't think that's going to election I don't think that's going to election I don't think that's going to be good for the country I think a be good for the country I think a be good for the country I think a decisive victory that unites the country decisive victory that unites the country decisive victory that unites the country turns the page on a lot of the turns the page on a lot of the turns the page on a lot of the challenges of the last four years and challenges of the last four years and challenges of the last four years and says okay this is where we're going this says okay this is where we're going this says okay this is where we're going this is who we are and what we stand for this is who we are and what we stand for this is who we are and what we stand for this is a Revival of our national identity is a Revival of our national identity is a Revival of our national identity and revive national pride in the United and revive national pride in the United and revive national pride in the United States regardless of whether you're a States regardless of whether you're a States regardless of whether you're a Democrat or Republican that I think is Democrat or Republican that I think is Democrat or Republican that I think is achievable in this election too and achievable in this election too and achievable in this election too and that's what the outcome I'm rooting for that's what the outcome I'm rooting for that's what the outcome I'm rooting for so just to pile on since we're Steel Man so just to pile on since we're Steel Man so just to pile on since we're Steel Man in the criticism against Trump is the

in the criticism against Trump is the in the criticism against Trump is the rhetoric I wish there was less of uh rhetoric I wish there was less of uh rhetoric I wish there was less of uh although at times it is so ridiculous it although at times it is so ridiculous it although at times it is so ridiculous it is entertaining the I hate Taylor Swift is entertaining the I hate Taylor Swift is entertaining the I hate Taylor Swift type of tweets or truths or whatever type of tweets or truths or whatever type of tweets or truths or whatever I I don't think that's he's a funny guy I I don't think that's he's a funny guy I I don't think that's he's a funny guy I mean the reality is different people I mean the reality is different people I mean the reality is different people have different attributes the one of the have different attributes the one of the have different attributes the one of the attributes for Donald Trump is he's one attributes for Donald Trump is he's one attributes for Donald Trump is he's one of the funnier presidents we've had in a of the funnier presidents we've had in a of the funnier presidents we've had in a long time that might not everybody's cup long time that might not everybody's cup long time that might not everybody's cup of tea maybe different people don't want of tea maybe different people don't want of tea maybe different people don't want that's not a quality they value in their that's not a quality they value in their that's not a quality they value in their president I think at a moment where president I think at a moment where president I think at a moment where you're also able to make I will say this you're also able to make I will say this you're also able to make I will say this much is everybody's got different styles much is everybody's got different styles much is everybody's got different styles Donald Trump's style is different from Donald Trump's style is different from Donald Trump's style is different from mine but I do think that if we're able mine but I do think that if we're able mine but I do think that if we're able to use levity in a moment of national to use levity in a moment of national to use levity in a moment of national division you know in some ways I think division you know in some ways I think division you know in some ways I think right now is probably a role where right now is probably a role where right now is probably a role where really good stand-up comedians could really good stand-up comedians could really good stand-up comedians could probably do a big service to the country probably do a big service to the country probably do a big service to the country if they're able to laugh at everybody if they're able to laugh at everybody if they're able to laugh at everybody 360 degrees so they can go up there and 360 degrees so they can go up there and 360 degrees so they can go up there and make fun of Donald Trump all they want make fun of Donald Trump all they want make fun of Donald Trump all they want do it in light-hearted and manner that do it in light-hearted and manner that do it in light-hearted and manner that loves the country do the same thing to loves the country do the same thing to loves the country do the same thing to kamla Harris with an equal standard I kamla Harris with an equal standard I kamla Harris with an equal standard I think that's actually good for the think that's actually good for the think that's actually good for the country but you know I think I'm I'm country but you know I think I'm I'm country but you know I think I'm I'm more interested Lex as you know in more interested Lex as you know in more interested Lex as you know in discussing the future direction of the discussing the future direction of the discussing the future direction of the country my own views I was a country my own views I was a country my own views I was a presidential candidate who ran against presidential candidate who ran against presidential candidate who ran against Donald Trump by the way and is Donald Trump by the way and is Donald Trump by the way and is supporting him now but I um I I I just supporting him now but I um I I I just supporting him now but I um I I I just prefer engaging on the substance of what prefer engaging on the substance of what prefer engaging on the substance of what I think each candidate's going to I think each candidate's going to I think each candidate's going to achieve for the country rather than achieve for the country rather than achieve for the country rather than picking on really the personal picking on really the personal picking on really the personal attributes of either one right I'm not attributes of either one right I'm not attributes of either one right I'm not criticizing KLA Harris's manner of laugh criticizing KLA Harris's manner of laugh criticizing KLA Harris's manner of laugh or whatever you know one might criticize or whatever you know one might criticize or whatever you know one might criticize as like a personal attribute of hers

as like a personal attribute of hers as like a personal attribute of hers that you may hear elsewhere and I just that you may hear elsewhere and I just that you may hear elsewhere and I just think our country is better off if we think our country is better off if we think our country is better off if we have a focus on both the policies but have a focus on both the policies but have a focus on both the policies but also who's going to be more likely to also who's going to be more likely to also who's going to be more likely to revive the country that I think is a revive the country that I think is a revive the country that I think is a healthy debate headed to an election I healthy debate headed to an election I healthy debate headed to an election I think everybody has their personality think everybody has their personality think everybody has their personality attributes their flaws what makes them attributes their flaws what makes them attributes their flaws what makes them funny and lovable to some people makes funny and lovable to some people makes funny and lovable to some people makes them irritating to others I think that them irritating to others I think that them irritating to others I think that that matters less heading into an that matters less heading into an that matters less heading into an election election election I love that you do that I love that you I love that you do that I love that you I love that you do that I love that you focus on policy and can speak for hours focus on policy and can speak for hours focus on policy and can speak for hours on policy let's look at foreign policy on policy let's look at foreign policy on policy let's look at foreign policy sure what kind of peace deal do you sure what kind of peace deal do you sure what kind of peace deal do you think is possible feasible optimal in think is possible feasible optimal in think is possible feasible optimal in Ukraine if you sat down you became Ukraine if you sat down you became Ukraine if you sat down you became president if you sat down with zinski president if you sat down with zinski president if you sat down with zinski and sat down with Putin what do you and sat down with Putin what do you and sat down with Putin what do you think it's possible to talk to them think it's possible to talk to them think it's possible to talk to them about one of the hilarious things you about one of the hilarious things you about one of the hilarious things you did which were intense and entertaining did which were intense and entertaining did which were intense and entertaining your debates in the primary but anyway your debates in the primary but anyway your debates in the primary but anyway uh is how how you grilled the other uh is how how you grilled the other uh is how how you grilled the other candidates that didn't know any regions candidates that didn't know any regions candidates that didn't know any regions they wanted to send money and they wanted to send money and they wanted to send money and troops and lead to the deaths of troops and lead to the deaths of troops and lead to the deaths of hundreds of thousands of people and they hundreds of thousands of people and they hundreds of thousands of people and they didn't know any of the regions in didn't know any of the regions in didn't know any of the regions in Ukraine yeah he had a lot of zingers in Ukraine yeah he had a lot of zingers in Ukraine yeah he had a lot of zingers in that one but anyway how do you think that one but anyway how do you think that one but anyway how do you think about negotiating with world leaders about negotiating with world leaders about negotiating with world leaders about what's going on there yeah so look about what's going on there yeah so look about what's going on there yeah so look I think that let's just get the I think that let's just get the I think that let's just get the self-interest of each party on the table self-interest of each party on the table self-interest of each party on the table and to be very transparent about it from and to be very transparent about it from and to be very transparent about it from everyone's perspective you know they everyone's perspective you know they everyone's perspective you know they think the other side is the aggressor or

think the other side is the aggressor or think the other side is the aggressor or whatever just get it on the table Russia whatever just get it on the table Russia whatever just get it on the table Russia is concerned about NATO Shifting the is concerned about NATO Shifting the is concerned about NATO Shifting the balance of power away from Russia to balance of power away from Russia to balance of power away from Russia to Western Europe when NATO has expanded Western Europe when NATO has expanded Western Europe when NATO has expanded far more than they expected to and far more than they expected to and far more than they expected to and frankly that Russia was told that NATO frankly that Russia was told that NATO frankly that Russia was told that NATO was going to expand it's an was going to expand it's an was going to expand it's an uncomfortable fact for some in America uncomfortable fact for some in America uncomfortable fact for some in America but James Baker made a commitment to Mel but James Baker made a commitment to Mel but James Baker made a commitment to Mel gorbachov in the early 90s where he said gorbachov in the early 90s where he said gorbachov in the early 90s where he said NATO would expand not one inch past East NATO would expand not one inch past East NATO would expand not one inch past East Germany well NATO's expanded far more Germany well NATO's expanded far more Germany well NATO's expanded far more after the fall of the USSR than it did after the fall of the USSR than it did after the fall of the USSR than it did during the existence of the USSR and during the existence of the USSR and during the existence of the USSR and that is a reality we have to contend that is a reality we have to contend that is a reality we have to contend with that's the Russian perspective from with that's the Russian perspective from with that's the Russian perspective from the Western perspective the hard fact is the Western perspective the hard fact is the Western perspective the hard fact is Russia was the aggressor in this Russia was the aggressor in this Russia was the aggressor in this conflict crossing the boundaries of a conflict crossing the boundaries of a conflict crossing the boundaries of a Sovereign Nation and that is a violation Sovereign Nation and that is a violation Sovereign Nation and that is a violation of international norms and it's a of international norms and it's a of international norms and it's a violation of the recognition of violation of the recognition of violation of the recognition of international law of Nations Without international law of Nations Without international law of Nations Without Borders are not a nation and so against Borders are not a nation and so against Borders are not a nation and so against that backdrop what's the actual interest that backdrop what's the actual interest that backdrop what's the actual interest of each country here I think if we're of each country here I think if we're of each country here I think if we're able to do a reasonable deal that gives able to do a reasonable deal that gives able to do a reasonable deal that gives Russia the assurances it needs about Russia the assurances it needs about Russia the assurances it needs about what they might allege as NATO what they might allege as NATO what they might allege as NATO expansionism violating prior commitments expansionism violating prior commitments expansionism violating prior commitments but get codified commitments for Russia but get codified commitments for Russia but get codified commitments for Russia that we're not going to see willy-nilly that we're not going to see willy-nilly that we're not going to see willy-nilly behavior of just randomly deciding behavior of just randomly deciding behavior of just randomly deciding they're going to violate the sovereignty they're going to violate the sovereignty they're going to violate the sovereignty of neighboring Nations and have hard of neighboring Nations and have hard of neighboring Nations and have hard assurances and consequences for that assurances and consequences for that assurances and consequences for that that's the beginnings of a deal but then that's the beginnings of a deal but then that's the beginnings of a deal but then I want to be ambitious for the United I want to be ambitious for the United I want to be ambitious for the United States I want to weaken the Russia China States I want to weaken the Russia China States I want to weaken the Russia China Alliance and I think that we can do a Alliance and I think that we can do a Alliance and I think that we can do a deal that requires that gives some real

deal that requires that gives some real deal that requires that gives some real gives to Russia conditioned on Russia gives to Russia conditioned on Russia gives to Russia conditioned on Russia withdrawing itself from its military withdrawing itself from its military withdrawing itself from its military alliance with China and this could be alliance with China and this could be alliance with China and this could be good for Russia too in the long run good for Russia too in the long run good for Russia too in the long run because right now Vladimir Putin does because right now Vladimir Putin does because right now Vladimir Putin does not enjoy being Xian Ping's little not enjoy being Xian Ping's little not enjoy being Xian Ping's little brother in that relationship but brother in that relationship but brother in that relationship but Russia's military combined with China's Russia's military combined with China's Russia's military combined with China's Naval capacity and Russia's Hypersonic Naval capacity and Russia's Hypersonic Naval capacity and Russia's Hypersonic missiles and China's economic might missiles and China's economic might missiles and China's economic might together those countries in an alliance together those countries in an alliance together those countries in an alliance pose a real threat to the United States pose a real threat to the United States pose a real threat to the United States but if as a condition for a reasonable but if as a condition for a reasonable but if as a condition for a reasonable discussion about where different discussion about where different discussion about where different territories land given what's occupied territories land given what's occupied territories land given what's occupied right now hard requirements that Russia right now hard requirements that Russia right now hard requirements that Russia remove its military presence from the remove its military presence from the remove its military presence from the Western Hemisphere people forget this Western Hemisphere people forget this Western Hemisphere people forget this Cuba Venezuela Nicaragua we don't want a Cuba Venezuela Nicaragua we don't want a Cuba Venezuela Nicaragua we don't want a Russian military presence in the Western Russian military presence in the Western Russian military presence in the Western Hemisphere that too would be a win for Hemisphere that too would be a win for Hemisphere that too would be a win for the United States no more joint military the United States no more joint military the United States no more joint military exercises with China off the coast of exercises with China off the coast of exercises with China off the coast of the uan islands the kinds of winds that the uan islands the kinds of winds that the uan islands the kinds of winds that the United States wants to protect the the United States wants to protect the the United States wants to protect the West's security get Russia out of the West's security get Russia out of the West's security get Russia out of the Western Hemisphere certainly out of the Western Hemisphere certainly out of the Western Hemisphere certainly out of the North American periphery and then also North American periphery and then also North American periphery and then also make sure that Russia's no longer in make sure that Russia's no longer in make sure that Russia's no longer in that military alliance with China in that military alliance with China in that military alliance with China in return for that able to provide Russia return for that able to provide Russia return for that able to provide Russia some things that are important to Russia some things that are important to Russia some things that are important to Russia we'd have to have a reasonable we'd have to have a reasonable we'd have to have a reasonable reasonable discussion about what the reasonable discussion about what the reasonable discussion about what the territorial concessions would be at the territorial concessions would be at the territorial concessions would be at the end of this war to bring it to peace and end of this war to bring it to peace and end of this war to bring it to peace and resolution and what the guarantees are resolution and what the guarantees are resolution and what the guarantees are to make sure that NATO is going to not to make sure that NATO is going to not to make sure that NATO is going to not expand beyond the scope of what the expand beyond the scope of what the expand beyond the scope of what the United States is at least historically United States is at least historically United States is at least historically guaranteed that I think together would guaranteed that I think together would guaranteed that I think together would be reasonable deal that gives every be reasonable deal that gives every be reasonable deal that gives every party what they're looking for that party what they're looking for that party what they're looking for that results in immediate peace that results

results in immediate peace that results results in immediate peace that results in Greater stability and most in Greater stability and most in Greater stability and most importantly weakening the Russia China importantly weakening the Russia China importantly weakening the Russia China Alliance which I think is the actual Alliance which I think is the actual Alliance which I think is the actual threat that we have so far no matter who threat that we have so far no matter who threat that we have so far no matter who in this debate of more or less Ukraine in this debate of more or less Ukraine in this debate of more or less Ukraine funding has really failed to confront funding has really failed to confront funding has really failed to confront that I think is the way we deescalate that I think is the way we deescalate that I think is the way we deescalate the risk of World War I and weaken the the risk of World War I and weaken the the risk of World War I and weaken the threats to the west by actually threats to the west by actually threats to the west by actually dismantling that Alliance so from the uh dismantling that Alliance so from the uh dismantling that Alliance so from the uh americ perspective the main americ perspective the main americ perspective the main interest is weakening the alliance interest is weakening the alliance interest is weakening the alliance between Russia and China yes I think the between Russia and China yes I think the between Russia and China yes I think the military alliance between Russia and military alliance between Russia and military alliance between Russia and China represents the single greatest China represents the single greatest China represents the single greatest threat we face yeah so do a deal that threat we face yeah so do a deal that threat we face yeah so do a deal that Reon that's very reasonable across the Reon that's very reasonable across the Reon that's very reasonable across the board but one of the main things we get board but one of the main things we get board but one of the main things we get out of it is weakening that Alliance so out of it is weakening that Alliance so out of it is weakening that Alliance so no joint military exercises no military no joint military exercises no military no joint military exercises no military collaborations these are monitorable collaborations these are monitorable collaborations these are monitorable these are monitorable attributes if these are monitorable attributes if these are monitorable attributes if there's cheating on that we're going to there's cheating on that we're going to there's cheating on that we're going to immediately have consequences as a immediately have consequences as a immediately have consequences as a consequence of cheating but we can't consequence of cheating but we can't consequence of cheating but we can't cheat on you know our own obligations cheat on you know our own obligations cheat on you know our own obligations that we would make in the context of that we would make in the context of that we would make in the context of that deal as well there might be some that deal as well there might be some that deal as well there might be some extremely painful things for Ukraine extremely painful things for Ukraine extremely painful things for Ukraine here so Ukraine currently captured a here so Ukraine currently captured a here so Ukraine currently captured a small region in Russia the KK region but small region in Russia the KK region but small region in Russia the KK region but Russia has captured giant chunks Russia has captured giant chunks Russia has captured giant chunks Dan H regions so it seems given what Dan H regions so it seems given what Dan H regions so it seems given what you're laying out it's very unlikely for you're laying out it's very unlikely for you're laying out it's very unlikely for Russia to give up any of the regions Russia to give up any of the regions Russia to give up any of the regions that's already captured I actually think that's already captured I actually think that's already captured I actually think that and that would come down of the that and that would come down of the that and that would come down of the spefic specifics of the negotiation but spefic specifics of the negotiation but spefic specifics of the negotiation but the core goals of the negotiation are the core goals of the negotiation are the core goals of the negotiation are peace in this war weaken the Russia peace in this war weaken the Russia peace in this war weaken the Russia China Alliance and for Russia what do China Alliance and for Russia what do China Alliance and for Russia what do they get out of it part of this is

they get out of it part of this is they get out of it part of this is here's something that's not negative for here's something that's not negative for here's something that's not negative for Ukraine but that could be positive for Ukraine but that could be positive for Ukraine but that could be positive for Russia as part of that deal right Russia as part of that deal right Russia as part of that deal right because it's it's not a zero sum game because it's it's not a zero sum game because it's it's not a zero sum game alone with Ukraine on the losing end of alone with Ukraine on the losing end of alone with Ukraine on the losing end of this I think reopening economic this I think reopening economic this I think reopening economic relations with the West would be a big relations with the West would be a big relations with the West would be a big win for Russia but also a carrot that win for Russia but also a carrot that win for Russia but also a carrot that gets them out of that military gets them out of that military gets them out of that military relationship with China so I I do think relationship with China so I I do think relationship with China so I I do think that the foreign policy establishment that the foreign policy establishment that the foreign policy establishment has historically been has historically been has historically been at the very least unimaginative about at the very least unimaginative about at the very least unimaginative about the levers that we're able to use the levers that we're able to use the levers that we're able to use actually I was a little bit critical of actually I was a little bit critical of actually I was a little bit critical of Nixon earlier in this discussion for his Nixon earlier in this discussion for his Nixon earlier in this discussion for his contribution to the overgrowth of the US contribution to the overgrowth of the US contribution to the overgrowth of the US entitlement State and Regulatory state entitlement State and Regulatory state entitlement State and Regulatory state but I'll give Nixon credit here on a but I'll give Nixon credit here on a but I'll give Nixon credit here on a different point which is that he was different point which is that he was different point which is that he was imaginative of being able to pull red imaginative of being able to pull red imaginative of being able to pull red China out from the clasp of the USSR he China out from the clasp of the USSR he China out from the clasp of the USSR he broke the China Russia Alliance back broke the China Russia Alliance back broke the China Russia Alliance back then which was an important step to then which was an important step to then which was an important step to bring us to the near end of the Cold War bring us to the near end of the Cold War bring us to the near end of the Cold War so I think there's an O opportunity for so I think there's an O opportunity for so I think there's an O opportunity for a similar unconventional maneuver now of a similar unconventional maneuver now of a similar unconventional maneuver now of using greater reopened economic using greater reopened economic using greater reopened economic relations with Russia to pull Russia out relations with Russia to pull Russia out relations with Russia to pull Russia out from the hands of China today there's no from the hands of China today there's no from the hands of China today there's no skin-off Ukraine's back for that and I skin-off Ukraine's back for that and I skin-off Ukraine's back for that and I do think that's a big carrot for Russia do think that's a big carrot for Russia do think that's a big carrot for Russia in this direction I do think it will in this direction I do think it will in this direction I do think it will involve some level of territorial involve some level of territorial involve some level of territorial negotiation as well that you know out of negotiation as well that you know out of negotiation as well that you know out of any good deal not everyone's going to any good deal not everyone's going to any good deal not everyone's going to like 100% of what comes out of it but like 100% of what comes out of it but like 100% of what comes out of it but that's part of the cost of securing that's part of the cost of securing that's part of the cost of securing peace is that not everyone's going to be peace is that not everyone's going to be peace is that not everyone's going to be happy about every attribute but I could happy about every attribute but I could happy about every attribute but I could make a case that a an immediate peace make a case that a an immediate peace make a case that a an immediate peace deal is also now in the best interests deal is also now in the best interests deal is also now in the best interests of Ukraine let's just rewind the clock of Ukraine let's just rewind the clock of Ukraine let's just rewind the clock we're looking at now let's just say we're looking at now let's just say we're looking at now let's just say we're early 2022 maybe June of 2022

we're early 2022 maybe June of 2022 we're early 2022 maybe June of 2022 zalinsky was ready to come to the table zalinsky was ready to come to the table zalinsky was ready to come to the table for a deal back then until Boris Johnson for a deal back then until Boris Johnson for a deal back then until Boris Johnson traveled when he had his own domestic traveled when he had his own domestic traveled when he had his own domestic political travails to convince zalinski political travails to convince zalinski political travails to convince zalinski to continue to fight and that goes to to continue to fight and that goes to to continue to fight and that goes to the point where when Nations aren't the point where when Nations aren't the point where when Nations aren't asked to pay for their own National asked to pay for their own National asked to pay for their own National Security they have what the problem is Security they have what the problem is Security they have what the problem is of moral hazard of taking risks that of moral hazard of taking risks that of moral hazard of taking risks that really are suboptimal risks for them to really are suboptimal risks for them to really are suboptimal risks for them to take cuz they're not bearing the take cuz they're not bearing the take cuz they're not bearing the consequences of taking those risks not consequences of taking those risks not consequences of taking those risks not fully in the fully in the fully in the cost if Ukraine had done a deal back cost if Ukraine had done a deal back cost if Ukraine had done a deal back then I think it is unambiguous that they then I think it is unambiguous that they then I think it is unambiguous that they would have done a better deal for would have done a better deal for would have done a better deal for themselves than they're doing now after themselves than they're doing now after themselves than they're doing now after having spent hundreds of billions of having spent hundreds of billions of having spent hundreds of billions of dollars and expended tens of thousands dollars and expended tens of thousands dollars and expended tens of thousands of Ukrainian lives so the idea that of Ukrainian lives so the idea that of Ukrainian lives so the idea that Ukraine is somehow better off because it Ukraine is somehow better off because it Ukraine is somehow better off because it failed to do that deal before is a lie failed to do that deal before is a lie failed to do that deal before is a lie and if we're not willing to learn from and if we're not willing to learn from and if we're not willing to learn from those mistakes of the recent past were those mistakes of the recent past were those mistakes of the recent past were doomed to repeat them again so this idea doomed to repeat them again so this idea doomed to repeat them again so this idea that it would be painful for Ukraine you that it would be painful for Ukraine you that it would be painful for Ukraine you know what's been painful tens and tens know what's been painful tens and tens know what's been painful tens and tens and tens of thousands of people and tens of thousands of people and tens of thousands of people continuing to die without any increased continuing to die without any increased continuing to die without any increased leverage and actually getting the leverage and actually getting the leverage and actually getting the outcome that they want so I think outcome that they want so I think outcome that they want so I think there's an opportunity for a win-win-win there's an opportunity for a win-win-win there's an opportunity for a win-win-win a win for the United States in the west a win for the United States in the west a win for the United States in the west more broadly in weakening the Russia more broadly in weakening the Russia more broadly in weakening the Russia China Alliance a win for Ukraine in China Alliance a win for Ukraine in China Alliance a win for Ukraine in having an agreement that is back stopped having an agreement that is back stopped having an agreement that is back stopped by the United States of America's by the United States of America's by the United States of America's interests that provides a greater degree interests that provides a greater degree interests that provides a greater degree of long run security to the Future of long run security to the Future of long run security to the Future existence of Ukraine and its sovereignty existence of Ukraine and its sovereignty existence of Ukraine and its sovereignty and also stopping the Bloodshed today and also stopping the Bloodshed today and also stopping the Bloodshed today and I think a win for Russia which is to and I think a win for Russia which is to and I think a win for Russia which is to reopen economic relations with the west

reopen economic relations with the west reopen economic relations with the west and have certain guarantees about what and have certain guarantees about what and have certain guarantees about what the mission creep or scope creep of NATO the mission creep or scope creep of NATO the mission creep or scope creep of NATO will be there's no rule that says that will be there's no rule that says that will be there's no rule that says that when one party before before full when one party before before full when one party before before full outright world war starts at least outright world war starts at least outright world war starts at least there's an opportunity for there to there's an opportunity for there to there's an opportunity for there to actually be a win for everybody on the actually be a win for everybody on the actually be a win for everybody on the table rather than to assume that a win table rather than to assume that a win table rather than to assume that a win for us is a loss to Russia or that for us is a loss to Russia or that for us is a loss to Russia or that anything positive that happens for anything positive that happens for anything positive that happens for Russia is a loss for the United States Russia is a loss for the United States Russia is a loss for the United States or Ukraine just to add to the table some or Ukraine just to add to the table some or Ukraine just to add to the table some things that Putin won't like but I think things that Putin won't like but I think things that Putin won't like but I think are possible to negotiate which is are possible to negotiate which is are possible to negotiate which is Ukraine joining the European Union and Ukraine joining the European Union and Ukraine joining the European Union and not not not NATO so establishing some kind of NATO so establishing some kind of NATO so establishing some kind of economic relationships there and also economic relationships there and also economic relationships there and also splitting the bill sort of guaranteeing splitting the bill sort of guaranteeing splitting the bill sort of guaranteeing some amount of money from both the some amount of money from both the some amount of money from both the Russia and the United States for Russia and the United States for Russia and the United States for rebuilding Ukraine is one of the rebuilding Ukraine is one of the rebuilding Ukraine is one of the challenges in Ukraine a war torn country challenges in Ukraine a war torn country challenges in Ukraine a war torn country is how do you guarantee the flourishing is how do you guarantee the flourishing is how do you guarantee the flourishing of this particular Nation right so you of this particular Nation right so you of this particular Nation right so you want to not just stop the death of want to not just stop the death of want to not just stop the death of people and the destruction but also people and the destruction but also people and the destruction but also provide a foundation on which you can provide a foundation on which you can provide a foundation on which you can rebuild the country and build a a rebuild the country and build a a rebuild the country and build a a flourishing future country I think out flourishing future country I think out flourishing future country I think out of this conversation of this conversation of this conversation alone there are a number of levers on alone there are a number of levers on alone there are a number of levers on the table for negotiation in a lot of the table for negotiation in a lot of the table for negotiation in a lot of different directions and that's where different directions and that's where different directions and that's where you want to be right if there's only one you want to be right if there's only one you want to be right if there's only one factor that matters to each of the two factor that matters to each of the two factor that matters to each of the two parties and those are their Redline parties and those are their Redline parties and those are their Redline factors then there's no room for factors then there's no room for factors then there's no room for negotiation this is a this is a deeply

negotiation this is a this is a deeply negotiation this is a this is a deeply complicated historically complicated historically complicated historically intricate dynamic between Ukraine and intricate dynamic between Ukraine and intricate dynamic between Ukraine and Russia and between NATO and the United Russia and between NATO and the United Russia and between NATO and the United States and the Russia China Alliance and States and the Russia China Alliance and States and the Russia China Alliance and economic interests that are an issue economic interests that are an issue economic interests that are an issue combined with the geopolitical factors combined with the geopolitical factors combined with the geopolitical factors there are a lot of levers for there are a lot of levers for there are a lot of levers for negotiation and the more levers there negotiation and the more levers there negotiation and the more levers there are the more likely there is to be a are the more likely there is to be a are the more likely there is to be a win-win-win deal that gets done for win-win-win deal that gets done for win-win-win deal that gets done for everybody so I think it should be everybody so I think it should be everybody so I think it should be encouraging the fact that there are as encouraging the fact that there are as encouraging the fact that there are as many different possible levers here many different possible levers here many different possible levers here almost make certain that a reasonable almost make certain that a reasonable almost make certain that a reasonable practicable peace deal is possible in practicable peace deal is possible in practicable peace deal is possible in contrast to situation where there's only contrast to situation where there's only contrast to situation where there's only one thing that matters for each side one thing that matters for each side one thing that matters for each side then I can't tell you that there's a then I can't tell you that there's a then I can't tell you that there's a deal to be done there's definitely a deal to be done there's definitely a deal to be done there's definitely a deal to be done here and I think that it deal to be done here and I think that it deal to be done here and I think that it requires real leadership in the United requires real leadership in the United requires real leadership in the United States playing hard ball not just with States playing hard ball not just with States playing hard ball not just with one side of this not just with zalinski one side of this not just with zalinski one side of this not just with zalinski or with Putin but across the board hard or with Putin but across the board hard or with Putin but across the board hard ball for our own interests which are the ball for our own interests which are the ball for our own interests which are the interests of of stability here and I interests of of stability here and I interests of of stability here and I think that that will happen to well think that that will happen to well think that that will happen to well serve both Ukraine and Russia in the serve both Ukraine and Russia in the serve both Ukraine and Russia in the process uh if you were president would process uh if you were president would process uh if you were president would you call Putin absolutely I mean in any you call Putin absolutely I mean in any you call Putin absolutely I mean in any negotiation you got to manage when negotiation you got to manage when negotiation you got to manage when you're calling somebody and when you're you're calling somebody and when you're you're calling somebody and when you're not but I do believe that open not but I do believe that open not but I do believe that open conversation and the willingness to have conversation and the willingness to have conversation and the willingness to have that as another lever in the negotiation that as another lever in the negotiation that as another lever in the negotiation is totally fair is totally fair is totally fair game okay let's go to the China side of game okay let's go to the China side of game okay let's go to the China side of this uh the big concern here is that the this uh the big concern here is that the this uh the big concern here is that the the Brewing cold or the Brewing cold or the Brewing cold or God forbid Hot War uh between the United God forbid Hot War uh between the United God forbid Hot War uh between the United States and China in the 21st century how States and China in the 21st century how States and China in the 21st century how do we avoid that so A few things one is do we avoid that so A few things one is do we avoid that so A few things one is I do think the best way we also avoid it

I do think the best way we also avoid it I do think the best way we also avoid it is by is by is by reducing the consequences to the United reducing the consequences to the United reducing the consequences to the United States in the event of that type of States in the event of that type of States in the event of that type of conflict because at that point what conflict because at that point what conflict because at that point what you're setting up for if the you're setting up for if the you're setting up for if the consequences are existential for the consequences are existential for the consequences are existential for the United States then what you're buying United States then what you're buying United States then what you're buying yourself in the context of what could be yourself in the context of what could be yourself in the context of what could be a small conflict is an allout Great War a small conflict is an allout Great War a small conflict is an allout Great War so the first thing I want to make sure so the first thing I want to make sure so the first thing I want to make sure we avoid is a major conflict between the we avoid is a major conflict between the we avoid is a major conflict between the United States and China like a World War United States and China like a World War United States and China like a World War level conflict and the way to do that is level conflict and the way to do that is level conflict and the way to do that is to bring down the existential Stakes for to bring down the existential Stakes for to bring down the existential Stakes for the US and the way we bring down the the US and the way we bring down the the US and the way we bring down the existential Stakes for the US is make existential Stakes for the US is make existential Stakes for the US is make sure that the United States does not sure that the United States does not sure that the United States does not depend on China for our modern way of depend on China for our modern way of depend on China for our modern way of life right now we do okay so right now life right now we do okay so right now life right now we do okay so right now we depend on China for everything from we depend on China for everything from we depend on China for everything from the Pharmaceuticals in our medicine the Pharmaceuticals in our medicine the Pharmaceuticals in our medicine cabinet 95% of ibuprofen one of the most cabinet 95% of ibuprofen one of the most cabinet 95% of ibuprofen one of the most basic medicines used in the United basic medicines used in the United basic medicines used in the United States depends on China for its supply States depends on China for its supply States depends on China for its supply chain we depend on China ironically for chain we depend on China ironically for chain we depend on China ironically for our own military industrial base think our own military industrial base think our own military industrial base think about how little sense that makes about how little sense that makes about how little sense that makes actually our own military which actually our own military which actually our own military which supposedly exists to protect ourselves supposedly exists to protect ourselves supposedly exists to protect ourselves against adversaries Depends for its own against adversaries Depends for its own against adversaries Depends for its own supplies semiconductors and otherwise on supplies semiconductors and otherwise on supplies semiconductors and otherwise on our top adversary that doesn't make our top adversary that doesn't make our top adversary that doesn't make sense even if you're a Libertarian in sense even if you're a Libertarian in sense even if you're a Libertarian in the school of fredr Von Hayek somebody I the school of fredr Von Hayek somebody I the school of fredr Von Hayek somebody I admire as well even then you would not admire as well even then you would not admire as well even then you would not argue for argue for argue for a foreign dependence on adversary for a foreign dependence on adversary for a foreign dependence on adversary for your military so I think that's the next your military so I think that's the next your military so I think that's the next step we need to take is at least reduce step we need to take is at least reduce step we need to take is at least reduce us dependence on China for the most us dependence on China for the most us dependence on China for the most essential inputs for the functioning of essential inputs for the functioning of essential inputs for the functioning of the United States of America including

the United States of America including the United States of America including our own military as a side note I our own military as a side note I our own military as a side note I believe that means not just onshoring to believe that means not just onshoring to believe that means not just onshoring to the United States it does but if we're the United States it does but if we're the United States it does but if we're really serious about that it also means really serious about that it also means really serious about that it also means expanding our relationships with allies expanding our relationships with allies expanding our relationships with allies like Japan South Korea India the like Japan South Korea India the like Japan South Korea India the Philippines and that's an interesting Philippines and that's an interesting Philippines and that's an interesting debate to have cuz some on the right debate to have cuz some on the right debate to have cuz some on the right would say Okay I want to decouple from would say Okay I want to decouple from would say Okay I want to decouple from China but I also want less trade with China but I also want less trade with China but I also want less trade with all these other places you can't have all these other places you can't have all these other places you can't have both those things at the same time you both those things at the same time you both those things at the same time you can have one or the other you can't have can have one or the other you can't have can have one or the other you can't have both and so we have to acknowledge and both and so we have to acknowledge and both and so we have to acknowledge and be honest with ourselves that there are be honest with ourselves that there are be honest with ourselves that there are trade-offs to declaring independence trade-offs to declaring independence trade-offs to declaring independence from China but the question is what are from China but the question is what are from China but the question is what are the longrun benefits now you think about the longrun benefits now you think about the longrun benefits now you think about the other way to do this is is strategic the other way to do this is is strategic the other way to do this is is strategic Clarity I think the way that you see Clarity I think the way that you see Clarity I think the way that you see world wars often emerge is strategic world wars often emerge is strategic world wars often emerge is strategic ambiguity from two adversaries who don't ambiguity from two adversaries who don't ambiguity from two adversaries who don't really know what the other side's red really know what the other side's red really know what the other side's red line is or is and accidentally crosses line is or is and accidentally crosses line is or is and accidentally crosses those red lines and I think we need to those red lines and I think we need to those red lines and I think we need to be much clearer with what are our hard be much clearer with what are our hard be much clearer with what are our hard red lines and what aren't they and I red lines and what aren't they and I red lines and what aren't they and I think that's the single most effective think that's the single most effective think that's the single most effective way to make sure this doesn't spiral way to make sure this doesn't spiral way to make sure this doesn't spiral into major world war and then let's talk into major world war and then let's talk into major world war and then let's talk about ending the Russia Ukraine conflict about ending the Russia Ukraine conflict about ending the Russia Ukraine conflict on the terms that I just discussed with on the terms that I just discussed with on the terms that I just discussed with you before I think weakening the Russia you before I think weakening the Russia you before I think weakening the Russia China Alliance not only reduces the risk China Alliance not only reduces the risk China Alliance not only reduces the risk that Russia becomes an aggressor it also that Russia becomes an aggressor it also that Russia becomes an aggressor it also reduces the risk that China takes the reduces the risk that China takes the reduces the risk that China takes the risks that could escalate us to World risks that could escalate us to World risks that could escalate us to World War III as well so I think that War III as well so I think that War III as well so I think that geopolitically you got to look at these geopolitically you got to look at these geopolitically you got to look at these things holistically that end of the things holistically that end of the things holistically that end of the Russia Ukraine war and that peace deal Russia Ukraine war and that peace deal Russia Ukraine war and that peace deal deescalate not only the Russia Ukraine deescalate not only the Russia Ukraine deescalate not only the Russia Ukraine conflict but the risk of a broader conflict but the risk of a broader conflict but the risk of a broader conflict that includes China as well by conflict that includes China as well by conflict that includes China as well by also weakening China because Russia also also weakening China because Russia also also weakening China because Russia also has Hypersonic missiles and missile

has Hypersonic missiles and missile has Hypersonic missiles and missile capabilities that are ahead of that of capabilities that are ahead of that of capabilities that are ahead of that of China's if Russia's no longer in a China's if Russia's no longer in a China's if Russia's no longer in a military alliance with China that military alliance with China that military alliance with China that changes China's calculus as well so changes China's calculus as well so changes China's calculus as well so that's kind of I that's kind of I that's kind of I think more strategic Vision we need in think more strategic Vision we need in think more strategic Vision we need in our foreign policy than we've had since our foreign policy than we've had since our foreign policy than we've had since certainly you know the Nixon era I think certainly you know the Nixon era I think certainly you know the Nixon era I think that you need people who are going to be that you need people who are going to be that you need people who are going to be able to challenge the status quo able to challenge the status quo able to challenge the status quo question the existing orthodoxies the question the existing orthodoxies the question the existing orthodoxies the willingness to use levers to get great willingness to use levers to get great willingness to use levers to get great deals done that otherwise wouldn't have deals done that otherwise wouldn't have deals done that otherwise wouldn't have gotten done and that's what I do think gotten done and that's what I do think gotten done and that's what I do think someone like Donald Trump and the someone like Donald Trump and the someone like Donald Trump and the presidency and you know obviously I ran presidency and you know obviously I ran presidency and you know obviously I ran for president as an outsider and a for president as an outsider and a for president as an outsider and a businessman as well I think this is an businessman as well I think this is an businessman as well I think this is an area our foreign policy is one where we area our foreign policy is one where we area our foreign policy is one where we actually benefit from having Business actually benefit from having Business actually benefit from having Business Leaders in those roles rather than Leaders in those roles rather than Leaders in those roles rather than people who are Shackled by the people who are Shackled by the people who are Shackled by the traditional political manner of thinking traditional political manner of thinking traditional political manner of thinking I think the thing you didn't quite make I think the thing you didn't quite make I think the thing you didn't quite make clear but I think implied is that we clear but I think implied is that we clear but I think implied is that we have to accept the red line that China have to accept the red line that China have to accept the red line that China provides of of uh the one China policy provides of of uh the one China policy provides of of uh the one China policy both sides need to have their red lines both sides need to have their red lines both sides need to have their red lines both sides need to have their red lines both sides need to have their red lines both sides need to have their red lines so you know we can get into specifics so you know we can get into specifics so you know we can get into specifics but it's going to it's going to vary but it's going to it's going to vary but it's going to it's going to vary depending on the circumstances but the depending on the circumstances but the depending on the circumstances but the principle that I would give you is that principle that I would give you is that principle that I would give you is that we have to have a hard red line that's we have to have a hard red line that's we have to have a hard red line that's clear I think that that hard red line I clear I think that that hard red line I clear I think that that hard red line I was clear during my campaign on this so was clear during my campaign on this so was clear during my campaign on this so I'll say it again is I think that we I'll say it again is I think that we I'll say it again is I think that we have to have a clear red line that China have to have a clear red line that China have to have a clear red line that China will not and should not for any time in will not and should not for any time in will not and should not for any time in the foreseeable future Annex CH the foreseeable future Annex CH the foreseeable future Annex CH Taiwan I do think that for the United Taiwan I do think that for the United Taiwan I do think that for the United States it probably is prudent right now States it probably is prudent right now States it probably is prudent right now not to suddenly upend The Diplomatic not to suddenly upend The Diplomatic not to suddenly upend The Diplomatic policy we've adopted for decades of what

policy we've adopted for decades of what policy we've adopted for decades of what is recognizing the one one China policy is recognizing the one one China policy is recognizing the one one China policy and our position of quiet deference to and our position of quiet deference to and our position of quiet deference to that and understand that that may be the that and understand that that may be the that and understand that that may be the red line is the national recognition of red line is the national recognition of red line is the national recognition of Taiwan as an independent nation would be Taiwan as an independent nation would be Taiwan as an independent nation would be a red line that China would have but we a red line that China would have but we a red line that China would have but we would have a red line to say that we do would have a red line to say that we do would have a red line to say that we do not in any circumstance tolerate the not in any circumstance tolerate the not in any circumstance tolerate the annexation by physical force in any time annexation by physical force in any time annexation by physical force in any time in the foreseeable future when that's in the foreseeable future when that's in the foreseeable future when that's against the interest of the United against the interest of the United against the interest of the United States of America so there's examples States of America so there's examples States of America so there's examples but the principle here is you asked how but the principle here is you asked how but the principle here is you asked how do we avoid major conflict with China I do we avoid major conflict with China I do we avoid major conflict with China I think it starts with clear red lines on think it starts with clear red lines on think it starts with clear red lines on both sides I think it starts with also both sides I think it starts with also both sides I think it starts with also lowering the stakes for the United lowering the stakes for the United lowering the stakes for the United States by making sure we're not States by making sure we're not States by making sure we're not dependent on China for our modern way of dependent on China for our modern way of dependent on China for our modern way of life and I think it also starts with life and I think it also starts with life and I think it also starts with ironically using a peaceful resolution ironically using a peaceful resolution ironically using a peaceful resolution to the Ukraine war as a way of weakening to the Ukraine war as a way of weakening to the Ukraine war as a way of weakening the China Alliance which in the other the China Alliance which in the other the China Alliance which in the other direction of weakening China has direction of weakening China has direction of weakening China has significant benefits to us as well but significant benefits to us as well but significant benefits to us as well but what do you do when China says very what do you do when China says very what do you do when China says very politely we're going to Annex Taiwan politely we're going to Annex Taiwan politely we're going to Annex Taiwan whether you like it or not against the whether you like it or not against the whether you like it or not against the backdrop that I just laid out that's not backdrop that I just laid out that's not backdrop that I just laid out that's not going to happen that wouldn't happen if going to happen that wouldn't happen if going to happen that wouldn't happen if we actually make sure that we're crystal we actually make sure that we're crystal we actually make sure that we're crystal clear about what our red lines and clear about what our red lines and clear about what our red lines and priorities are we're also dependent on priorities are we're also dependent on priorities are we're also dependent on CH on Taiwan right now for our own CH on Taiwan right now for our own CH on Taiwan right now for our own semiconductor supply chain so China semiconductor supply chain so China semiconductor supply chain so China knows that's going to draw us into knows that's going to draw us into knows that's going to draw us into serious conflict in in that circumstance serious conflict in in that circumstance serious conflict in in that circumstance so against the backdrop of clearly drawn so against the backdrop of clearly drawn so against the backdrop of clearly drawn red lines against the backdrop of Russia red lines against the backdrop of Russia red lines against the backdrop of Russia no longer automatically being in China's no longer automatically being in China's no longer automatically being in China's Camp that's a big lever I think also Camp that's a big lever I think also Camp that's a big lever I think also strengthening our relationship with strengthening our relationship with strengthening our relationship with other allies where we have room to other allies where we have room to other allies where we have room to strengthen those relationships like strengthen those relationships like strengthen those relationships like India and I'm not just saying that you

India and I'm not just saying that you India and I'm not just saying that you know because my name is V ramaswami know because my name is V ramaswami know because my name is V ramaswami right I'm saying it because it's right I'm saying it because it's right I'm saying it because it's strategically important to the United strategically important to the United strategically important to the United States to understand that God forbid in States to understand that God forbid in States to understand that God forbid in a conflict scenario China would perceive a conflict scenario China would perceive a conflict scenario China would perceive some risk to the Indian Ocean or the some risk to the Indian Ocean or the some risk to the Indian Ocean or the Andaman sea no longer being reliable for Andaman sea no longer being reliable for Andaman sea no longer being reliable for getting Middle Eastern Oil supplies getting Middle Eastern Oil supplies getting Middle Eastern Oil supplies there's a lot of levers here but I think there's a lot of levers here but I think there's a lot of levers here but I think that if we are both strategically clear that if we are both strategically clear that if we are both strategically clear with our allies and with our adversaries with our allies and with our adversaries with our allies and with our adversaries about what our red lines are what our about what our red lines are what our about what our red lines are what our priorities are reasonable deals that priorities are reasonable deals that priorities are reasonable deals that pull Russia out of the hands of China pull Russia out of the hands of China pull Russia out of the hands of China and vice versa reasonable allies and and vice versa reasonable allies and and vice versa reasonable allies and relationships that cause China to relationships that cause China to relationships that cause China to question whether it can continue to have question whether it can continue to have question whether it can continue to have the same access to Middle Eastern Oil the same access to Middle Eastern Oil the same access to Middle Eastern Oil supplies as it does today and then clear supplies as it does today and then clear supplies as it does today and then clear red lines with China itself about what red lines with China itself about what red lines with China itself about what we definitely aren't okay with and we definitely aren't okay with and we definitely aren't okay with and understand that they may have certain understand that they may have certain understand that they may have certain red lines too that allows us I think to red lines too that allows us I think to red lines too that allows us I think to still avoid what many people will call still avoid what many people will call still avoid what many people will call the unavoidable conflict the thid Trap the unavoidable conflict the thid Trap the unavoidable conflict the thid Trap you know against the circumstance of you know against the circumstance of you know against the circumstance of when when there's arising power against when when there's arising power against when when there's arising power against the backdrop of a declining power the backdrop of a declining power the backdrop of a declining power conflict always becomes inevitable conflict always becomes inevitable conflict always becomes inevitable that's a theory it's not a law of that's a theory it's not a law of that's a theory it's not a law of physics and I don't think that a we have physics and I don't think that a we have physics and I don't think that a we have to be a declining power and B I don't to be a declining power and B I don't to be a declining power and B I don't think that that has to necessarily think that that has to necessarily think that that has to necessarily result in major conflict with China here result in major conflict with China here result in major conflict with China here it's going to require real leadership it's going to require real leadership it's going to require real leadership leadership with a spine and you don't leadership with a spine and you don't leadership with a spine and you don't have to judge based on international have to judge based on international have to judge based on international relations Theory to form your view on relations Theory to form your view on relations Theory to form your view on this four years under Trump we didn't this four years under Trump we didn't this four years under Trump we didn't have major conflicts in the Middle East have major conflicts in the Middle East have major conflicts in the Middle East in places like Russia Ukraine we were on in places like Russia Ukraine we were on in places like Russia Ukraine we were on the cusp of war with North Korea when the cusp of war with North Korea when the cusp of war with North Korea when Obama left office and Trump took over Obama left office and Trump took over Obama left office and Trump took over four years under Biden less than four four years under Biden less than four four years under Biden less than four years under Biden and Harris what do you years under Biden and Harris what do you years under Biden and Harris what do you have major conflicts in the Middle East

have major conflicts in the Middle East have major conflicts in the Middle East major conflict in Russia Ukraine judged major conflict in Russia Ukraine judged major conflict in Russia Ukraine judged by the results and you know I mean I by the results and you know I mean I by the results and you know I mean I would say that even if you're somebody would say that even if you're somebody would say that even if you're somebody who disagrees with a lot of Donald Trump who disagrees with a lot of Donald Trump who disagrees with a lot of Donald Trump and you don't like his style if your and you don't like his style if your and you don't like his style if your single issue is you want to stay out of single issue is you want to stay out of single issue is you want to stay out of World War III I think there's a pretty World War III I think there's a pretty World War III I think there's a pretty clear case for why you go for Trump in clear case for why you go for Trump in clear case for why you go for Trump in this this this election so Prime Minister Modi I think election so Prime Minister Modi I think election so Prime Minister Modi I think you've complimented him in in a bunch of you've complimented him in in a bunch of you've complimented him in in a bunch of different directions one of which is different directions one of which is different directions one of which is when you're discussing nationalism yeah when you're discussing nationalism yeah when you're discussing nationalism yeah I think I believe that you know somebody I think I believe that you know somebody I think I believe that you know somebody I've got to know actually reasonably I've got to know actually reasonably I've got to know actually reasonably well for example recently is Georgia well for example recently is Georgia well for example recently is Georgia Maloney who's a leader of Italy told her Maloney who's a leader of Italy told her Maloney who's a leader of Italy told her the same thing one of the things I love the same thing one of the things I love the same thing one of the things I love about her as a leader of Italy is that about her as a leader of Italy is that about her as a leader of Italy is that she does not apologize for the national she does not apologize for the national she does not apologize for the national identity of the country and that she identity of the country and that she identity of the country and that she stands for certain values stands for certain values stands for certain values uncompromisingly and she doesn't give a uncompromisingly and she doesn't give a uncompromisingly and she doesn't give a second care about what the media has to second care about what the media has to second care about what the media has to say about it one of the things I love say about it one of the things I love say about it one of the things I love last time I spoke to her when she was in last time I spoke to her when she was in last time I spoke to her when she was in the us when we sat down was she talked the us when we sat down was she talked the us when we sat down was she talked about she doesn't even read the about she doesn't even read the about she doesn't even read the newspaper she doesn't read and watch the newspaper she doesn't read and watch the newspaper she doesn't read and watch the media and allows her to make decisions media and allows her to make decisions media and allows her to make decisions that are best for the people and there that are best for the people and there that are best for the people and there are elements of that in modi's approach are elements of that in modi's approach are elements of that in modi's approach as well which I respect about him is he as well which I respect about him is he as well which I respect about him is he doesn't apologize for the fact that doesn't apologize for the fact that doesn't apologize for the fact that India has a national identity and that India has a national identity and that India has a national identity and that the nation should be proud of it but I'm the nation should be proud of it but I'm the nation should be proud of it but I'm not saying that because I'm proud of not saying that because I'm proud of not saying that because I'm proud of Maloney or for or Modi for their own Maloney or for or Modi for their own Maloney or for or Modi for their own countries I'm American I think there are countries I'm American I think there are countries I'm American I think there are lessons to learn from leaders who are lessons to learn from leaders who are lessons to learn from leaders who are proud of their own nation's identity proud of their own nation's identity proud of their own nation's identity rather than apologizing for it and I rather than apologizing for it and I rather than apologizing for it and I think it's a big part of you know it's think it's a big part of you know it's think it's a big part of you know it's why I ran for president on a campaign why I ran for president on a campaign why I ran for president on a campaign centered on national pride it's also why centered on national pride it's also why centered on national pride it's also why I'm not only voting for but actively I'm not only voting for but actively I'm not only voting for but actively supporting Donald Trump because I do

supporting Donald Trump because I do supporting Donald Trump because I do think he is going to be the one that think he is going to be the one that think he is going to be the one that restores that missing national pride in restores that missing national pride in restores that missing national pride in the United States and you know I uh the United States and you know I uh the United States and you know I uh touch on this as well in the in the book touch on this as well in the in the book touch on this as well in the in the book there's a chapter here it says there's a chapter here it says there's a chapter here it says nationalism isn't a bad word I think nationalism isn't a bad word I think nationalism isn't a bad word I think nationalism can be a very positive thing nationalism can be a very positive thing nationalism can be a very positive thing if it's grounded in the actual true if it's grounded in the actual true if it's grounded in the actual true attributes of a nation and in the United attributes of a nation and in the United attributes of a nation and in the United States that doesn't mean ethn States that doesn't mean ethn States that doesn't mean ethn nationalism because that was not what nationalism because that was not what nationalism because that was not what the national identity of the United the national identity of the United the national identity of the United States was based on in the first place States was based on in the first place States was based on in the first place but a Civic nationalism grounded in our but a Civic nationalism grounded in our but a Civic nationalism grounded in our actual National ideals that is who we actual National ideals that is who we actual National ideals that is who we are and I think that that is something are and I think that that is something are and I think that that is something that we've gotten uncomfortable with in that we've gotten uncomfortable with in that we've gotten uncomfortable with in the countries to say that oh I'm proud the countries to say that oh I'm proud the countries to say that oh I'm proud of being American and I believe in of being American and I believe in of being American and I believe in American exceptionalism somehow that's American exceptionalism somehow that's American exceptionalism somehow that's looking down on others no not looking looking down on others no not looking looking down on others no not looking down on anybody but I'm proud of my own down on anybody but I'm proud of my own down on anybody but I'm proud of my own country and I think Modis revived that country and I think Modis revived that country and I think Modis revived that spirit in India in a way that was spirit in India in a way that was spirit in India in a way that was missing for a long time right India had missing for a long time right India had missing for a long time right India had an inferiority complex a psychological an inferiority complex a psychological an inferiority complex a psychological inferiority complex but now to be proud inferiority complex but now to be proud inferiority complex but now to be proud of its National Heritage and its of its National Heritage and its of its National Heritage and its National mythmaking and its National National mythmaking and its National National mythmaking and its National Legacy and history and to say that you Legacy and history and to say that you Legacy and history and to say that you know every nation does have to have a know every nation does have to have a know every nation does have to have a kind of mythmaking about its past and to kind of mythmaking about its past and to kind of mythmaking about its past and to be proud of that it's like Malcolm X be proud of that it's like Malcolm X be proud of that it's like Malcolm X actually said this here in the United actually said this here in the United actually said this here in the United States He said a nation without an States He said a nation without an States He said a nation without an appreciation for its appreciation for its appreciation for its history is like a tree without history is like a tree without history is like a tree without roots it's roots it's roots it's dead and I think that that's true not dead and I think that that's true not dead and I think that that's true not just for the United States I think it's just for the United States I think it's just for the United States I think it's true for Every Other Nation I think true for Every Other Nation I think true for Every Other Nation I think leaders like Maloney in Italy leaders leaders like Maloney in Italy leaders leaders like Maloney in Italy leaders like Modi in India have done a great job like Modi in India have done a great job like Modi in India have done a great job that I wish to bring that type of Pride

that I wish to bring that type of Pride that I wish to bring that type of Pride back in the United States and you know back in the United States and you know back in the United States and you know whatever I do next like I'll tell you whatever I do next like I'll tell you whatever I do next like I'll tell you this is I think Reviving that sense of this is I think Reviving that sense of this is I think Reviving that sense of identity and pride especially in the identity and pride especially in the identity and pride especially in the Next Generation is one of the most Next Generation is one of the most Next Generation is one of the most important things we can do for this important things we can do for this important things we can do for this country speaking of what you do country speaking of what you do country speaking of what you do next any chance you run in next any chance you run in next any chance you run in 2028 well I'm not going to rule it out I 2028 well I'm not going to rule it out I 2028 well I'm not going to rule it out I mean that's a long time from now and I'm mean that's a long time from now and I'm mean that's a long time from now and I'm most focused on what I can do in the most focused on what I can do in the most focused on what I can do in the next chapter for the country I ran for next chapter for the country I ran for next chapter for the country I ran for president million things that I learned president million things that I learned president million things that I learned from that experience that you can only from that experience that you can only from that experience that you can only learn by doing it it was very much a you learn by doing it it was very much a you learn by doing it it was very much a you know fire first aim later with getting know fire first aim later with getting know fire first aim later with getting into the race there was no way I could into the race there was no way I could into the race there was no way I could have planned and plotted this out as have planned and plotted this out as have planned and plotted this out as somebody who is coming from the outside somebody who is coming from the outside somebody who is coming from the outside I was 37 years old came from the I was 37 years old came from the I was 37 years old came from the business world so there was a lot that business world so there was a lot that business world so there was a lot that only could learn by actually doing it only could learn by actually doing it only could learn by actually doing it and I and I and I did but I care about the same things did but I care about the same things did but I care about the same things that led me into the presidential race that led me into the presidential race that led me into the presidential race and I don't think the issues have been and I don't think the issues have been and I don't think the issues have been solved I think that we have a generation solved I think that we have a generation solved I think that we have a generation that is lost in the country it's not that is lost in the country it's not that is lost in the country it's not just young people I think it's all of us just young people I think it's all of us just young people I think it's all of us in some ways are hungry for purpose and in some ways are hungry for purpose and in some ways are hungry for purpose and meaning at a time in our history when meaning at a time in our history when meaning at a time in our history when the things that used to fill that void the things that used to fill that void the things that used to fill that void in our heart they're missing and I think in our heart they're missing and I think in our heart they're missing and I think we need a President Who both has the we need a President Who both has the we need a President Who both has the right policies for the country you know right policies for the country you know right policies for the country you know seal the Border grow the economy stay seal the Border grow the economy stay seal the Border grow the economy stay out of World War II and rampant crime out of World War II and rampant crime out of World War II and rampant crime yes we need the right yes we need the right yes we need the right policies but we also need leaders who in policies but we also need leaders who in policies but we also need leaders who in a sustained way Revive Our National a sustained way Revive Our National a sustained way Revive Our National character Revive Our sense of pride in

character Revive Our sense of pride in character Revive Our sense of pride in this country Revive Our identity As this country Revive Our identity As this country Revive Our identity As Americans and you know I think that that Americans and you know I think that that Americans and you know I think that that need exists as much today as it did when need exists as much today as it did when need exists as much today as it did when I first ran for president I don't think I first ran for president I don't think I first ran for president I don't think it's going to be automatically solved in it's going to be automatically solved in it's going to be automatically solved in just a few years I think Donald Trump is just a few years I think Donald Trump is just a few years I think Donald Trump is the right person to carry that Banner the right person to carry that Banner the right person to carry that Banner forward for the next four years but forward for the next four years but forward for the next four years but after that we'll see where the country after that we'll see where the country after that we'll see where the country is headed into 2028 and whatever I do is headed into 2028 and whatever I do is headed into 2028 and whatever I do it'll be whatever has a maximal positive it'll be whatever has a maximal positive it'll be whatever has a maximal positive impact on the country I'll also tell you impact on the country I'll also tell you impact on the country I'll also tell you that my laser that my laser that my laser focus maybe as distinct from other focus maybe as distinct from other focus maybe as distinct from other politicians on both sides is to take politicians on both sides is to take politicians on both sides is to take America to the next level to move beyond America to the next level to move beyond America to the next level to move beyond our victimhood culture to restore our our victimhood culture to restore our our victimhood culture to restore our culture of Excellence we got to shut culture of Excellence we got to shut culture of Excellence we got to shut down that Nanny State the entitlement down that Nanny State the entitlement down that Nanny State the entitlement State the regulatory State the foreign State the regulatory State the foreign State the regulatory State the foreign policy Nanny State shut it down and policy Nanny State shut it down and policy Nanny State shut it down and revive who we really are As Americans revive who we really are As Americans revive who we really are As Americans and I'm as passionate about that as ever and I'm as passionate about that as ever and I'm as passionate about that as ever but uh the next step is not running for but uh the next step is not running for but uh the next step is not running for president the next step is what happens president the next step is what happens president the next step is what happens in the next next four years and that's in the next next four years and that's in the next next four years and that's why over the next four weeks I'm focused why over the next four weeks I'm focused why over the next four weeks I'm focused on doing whatever I can to make sure we on doing whatever I can to make sure we on doing whatever I can to make sure we succeed in this election well I hope you succeed in this election well I hope you succeed in this election well I hope you run because uh this was made clear on run because uh this was made clear on run because uh this was made clear on the stage in the primary debates you the stage in the primary debates you the stage in the primary debates you have a unique Clarity and honesty in have a unique Clarity and honesty in have a unique Clarity and honesty in expressing the ideas you stand for and expressing the ideas you stand for and expressing the ideas you stand for and it would be nice to see that uh I would it would be nice to see that uh I would it would be nice to see that uh I would also like to see the same thing on the also like to see the same thing on the also like to see the same thing on the other side which would make for some other side which would make for some other side which would make for some badass interesting debates I would love badass interesting debates I would love badass interesting debates I would love nothing more than a kickass set of top

nothing more than a kickass set of top nothing more than a kickass set of top tier Democrat candidates after four tier Democrat candidates after four tier Democrat candidates after four years of Donald Trump we have a primary years of Donald Trump we have a primary years of Donald Trump we have a primary field with actually people who have real field with actually people who have real field with actually people who have real Visions for the country on both sides Visions for the country on both sides Visions for the country on both sides and the people of this country can and the people of this country can and the people of this country can choose between those competing Visions choose between those competing Visions choose between those competing Visions without insult or injury being the way without insult or injury being the way without insult or injury being the way we I would love nothing more than to see we I would love nothing more than to see we I would love nothing more than to see that in 2028 who do you think so for me that in 2028 who do you think so for me that in 2028 who do you think so for me I would love to see in some kind of I would love to see in some kind of I would love to see in some kind of future where it's you versus somebody future where it's you versus somebody future where it's you versus somebody like Tim Walls so to Tim Walls maybe I'm like Tim Walls so to Tim Walls maybe I'm like Tim Walls so to Tim Walls maybe I'm lacking in knowledge it's a first of all lacking in knowledge it's a first of all lacking in knowledge it's a first of all like a good dude has similar to you like a good dude has similar to you like a good dude has similar to you strongly held if not radical ideas of strongly held if not radical ideas of strongly held if not radical ideas of how to make progress in this country so how to make progress in this country so how to make progress in this country so to just be on stage and debate honestly to just be on stage and debate honestly to just be on stage and debate honestly about the ideas that are like very about the ideas that are like very about the ideas that are like very there's a tension between those ideas um there's a tension between those ideas um there's a tension between those ideas um is there other people Shapiro is is there other people Shapiro is is there other people Shapiro is interesting also I would like to take interesting also I would like to take interesting also I would like to take on in an Earnest in civil but contested on in an Earnest in civil but contested on in an Earnest in civil but contested context right of a debate who do you context right of a debate who do you context right of a debate who do you want to take on you want to take on some want to take on you want to take on some want to take on you want to take on some somebody who disagrees with you but somebody who disagrees with you but somebody who disagrees with you but still has deep ideology of their own I still has deep ideology of their own I still has deep ideology of their own I think John fedman is pretty interesting think John fedman is pretty interesting think John fedman is pretty interesting right he's demonstrated himself to be right he's demonstrated himself to be right he's demonstrated himself to be somebody who is thoughtful able to somebody who is thoughtful able to somebody who is thoughtful able to change his mind on positions but not in change his mind on positions but not in change his mind on positions but not in some sort of fake flip-floppy flippity some sort of fake flip-floppy flippity some sort of fake flip-floppy flippity floppity way but in a in a thoughtful floppity way but in a in a thoughtful floppity way but in a in a thoughtful Evolution somebody who's been through Evolution somebody who's been through Evolution somebody who's been through personal struggles somebody I deeply personal struggles somebody I deeply personal struggles somebody I deeply disagree with on a lot of his on a lot disagree with on a lot of his on a lot disagree with on a lot of his on a lot of his views and most of his views but of his views and most of his views but of his views and most of his views but who I can at least say he comes across

who I can at least say he comes across who I can at least say he comes across at least as somebody who has been at least as somebody who has been at least as somebody who has been through that torturous process of really through that torturous process of really through that torturous process of really examining your belief and convictions examining your belief and convictions examining your belief and convictions and you know has when necessary been and you know has when necessary been and you know has when necessary been able to preach to his own tribe where he able to preach to his own tribe where he able to preach to his own tribe where he thinks they're wrong I think it's thinks they're wrong I think it's thinks they're wrong I think it's interesting I think that you have you a interesting I think that you have you a interesting I think that you have you a number of other leaders probably number of other leaders probably number of other leaders probably emerging at lower levels on the left not emerging at lower levels on the left not emerging at lower levels on the left not everybody's going to necessarily come everybody's going to necessarily come everybody's going to necessarily come from Washington DC in fact the longer from Washington DC in fact the longer from Washington DC in fact the longer they're there the more they in some ways they're there the more they in some ways they're there the more they in some ways get polluted by it um I think the get polluted by it um I think the get polluted by it um I think the governor of of Colorado he's an governor of of Colorado he's an governor of of Colorado he's an interesting guy he's got a more interesting guy he's got a more interesting guy he's got a more libertarian libertarian libertarian tendency um you know I don't know as tendency um you know I don't know as tendency um you know I don't know as much about his views on from a national much about his views on from a national much about his views on from a national perspective but it's intriguing to see perspective but it's intriguing to see perspective but it's intriguing to see somebody who has at least libertarian somebody who has at least libertarian somebody who has at least libertarian Freedom oriented Tendencies within the Freedom oriented Tendencies within the Freedom oriented Tendencies within the Democratic party I think that there are Democratic party I think that there are Democratic party I think that there are a number of you know I mean I I I don't a number of you know I mean I I I don't a number of you know I mean I I I don't you know foresee him running for you know foresee him running for you know foresee him running for president but you I had a debate last president but you I had a debate last president but you I had a debate last year when I was running for president year when I was running for president year when I was running for president with Rana who say what you will about with Rana who say what you will about with Rana who say what you will about him he's an highly intelligent person him he's an highly intelligent person him he's an highly intelligent person and is somebody who is at least willing and is somebody who is at least willing and is somebody who is at least willing to Buck the consensus of his party when to Buck the consensus of his party when to Buck the consensus of his party when necessary I think he necessary I think he necessary I think he recently I would say lambasted he recently I would say lambasted he recently I would say lambasted he phrased it very delicately but phrased it very delicately but phrased it very delicately but criticized Kam Harris's prop OS tax on criticized Kam Harris's prop OS tax on criticized Kam Harris's prop OS tax on unrealized capital gains so I I like unrealized capital gains so I I like unrealized capital gains so I I like people who are willing to challenge the people who are willing to challenge the people who are willing to challenge the orthodoxies in their own party because orthodoxies in their own party because orthodoxies in their own party because it says they actually have convictions it says they actually have convictions it says they actually have convictions and so whoever the Democrats put up I and so whoever the Democrats put up I and so whoever the Democrats put up I hope it's someone like that and for my hope it's someone like that and for my hope it's someone like that and for my part I will I have and continue to have part I will I have and continue to have part I will I have and continue to have beliefs that will challenge beliefs that will challenge beliefs that will challenge Republicans that on the face of it may Republicans that on the face of it may Republicans that on the face of it may not be the policies that poll on paper

not be the policies that poll on paper not be the policies that poll on paper as the policies you're supposed to adopt as the policies you're supposed to adopt as the policies you're supposed to adopt as a republican candidate but what a as a republican candidate but what a as a republican candidate but what a true does doesn't just tell people what true does doesn't just tell people what true does doesn't just tell people what they want to hear you tell people what they want to hear you tell people what they want to hear you tell people what they need to hear and you tell people they need to hear and you tell people they need to hear and you tell people what your actual convictions are and what your actual convictions are and what your actual convictions are and this idea that I don't want to create a this idea that I don't want to create a this idea that I don't want to create a right-wing entitlement state or a nanny right-wing entitlement state or a nanny right-wing entitlement state or a nanny State I want to shut it down that State I want to shut it down that State I want to shut it down that challenges the presuppositions of where challenges the presuppositions of where challenges the presuppositions of where a lot of the conservative movement is a lot of the conservative movement is a lot of the conservative movement is right now I don't think the bill to cap right now I don't think the bill to cap right now I don't think the bill to cap credit card interest rates is a good credit card interest rates is a good credit card interest rates is a good idea because that's a price control just idea because that's a price control just idea because that's a price control just like K Harris's price controls and it'll like K Harris's price controls and it'll like K Harris's price controls and it'll reduce access to credit I don't think reduce access to credit I don't think reduce access to credit I don't think that we want a crony capitalist State that we want a crony capitalist State that we want a crony capitalist State showering private benefits on selected showering private benefits on selected showering private benefits on selected IND industries that favor us or that we IND industries that favor us or that we IND industries that favor us or that we want to expand the cfpb or the ftc's want to expand the cfpb or the ftc's want to expand the cfpb or the ftc's remit and somehow we're going to trust remit and somehow we're going to trust remit and somehow we're going to trust it because it's under our watch no I it because it's under our watch no I it because it's under our watch no I believe in shutting it down that believe in shutting it down that believe in shutting it down that challenges a lot of the current challenges a lot of the current challenges a lot of the current direction of the conservative movement direction of the conservative movement direction of the conservative movement you know I I believe in certain issues you know I I believe in certain issues you know I I believe in certain issues that you know maybe even outside the that you know maybe even outside the that you know maybe even outside the scope of what Republicans currently care scope of what Republicans currently care scope of what Republicans currently care about right about right about right now one of the things that I oppose for now one of the things that I oppose for now one of the things that I oppose for example is this is not a top issue in example is this is not a top issue in example is this is not a top issue in American politics but just to give you a American politics but just to give you a American politics but just to give you a sense for you know how I think and view sense for you know how I think and view sense for you know how I think and view the world I'm against factory farming of the world I'm against factory farming of the world I'm against factory farming of a of a large scale of you know you you a of a large scale of you know you you a of a large scale of you know you you could sort of say putting uh you know could sort of say putting uh you know could sort of say putting uh you know the the mistreatment of it's one thing the the mistreatment of it's one thing the the mistreatment of it's one thing to say that you need it for for your to say that you need it for for your to say that you need it for for your sustenance and that's great but it's sustenance and that's great but it's sustenance and that's great but it's another to say that you have to do it in another to say that you have to do it in another to say that you have to do it in a factory farming setting that gives a factory farming setting that gives a factory farming setting that gives special exemptions from historical laws special exemptions from historical laws special exemptions from historical laws that have existed that are the product that have existed that are the product that have existed that are the product of crony capitalism I'm against crony of crony capitalism I'm against crony of crony capitalism I'm against crony capitalism in all its forms I'm against capitalism in all its forms I'm against capitalism in all its forms I'm against the influence of Mega Money in politics the influence of Mega Money in politics the influence of Mega Money in politics I don't think that's been good either

I don't think that's been good either I don't think that's been good either for Democrats or Republicans some of for Democrats or Republicans some of for Democrats or Republicans some of those views I think are not necessarily those views I think are not necessarily those views I think are not necessarily traditional Republican rank you know traditional Republican rank you know traditional Republican rank you know Orthodoxy reading chapter and verse from Orthodoxy reading chapter and verse from Orthodoxy reading chapter and verse from what the Republican Party platform has what the Republican Party platform has what the Republican Party platform has been it's not against the Republican been it's not against the Republican been it's not against the Republican Party platform but it's asking what the Party platform but it's asking what the Party platform but it's asking what the future of our movement is some of these future of our movement is some of these future of our movement is some of these things are hard like getting money out things are hard like getting money out things are hard like getting money out of politics getting Mega Money Getting of politics getting Mega Money Getting of politics getting Mega Money Getting Mega Money the Mega Money yeah yeah yeah Mega Money the Mega Money yeah yeah yeah Mega Money the Mega Money yeah yeah yeah and so long as it exists you got to play and so long as it exists you got to play and so long as it exists you got to play the game I mean you got if you're going the game I mean you got if you're going the game I mean you got if you're going to play to win I think one of the things to play to win I think one of the things to play to win I think one of the things I realized is that you just can't I realized is that you just can't I realized is that you just can't compete without it but you want to win compete without it but you want to win compete without it but you want to win the game in order to change the game and the game in order to change the game and the game in order to change the game and I think that that's something that I I think that that's something that I I think that that's something that I keep keep in mind as well so you have keep keep in mind as well so you have keep keep in mind as well so you have written a lot you're exceptionally written a lot you're exceptionally written a lot you're exceptionally productive but even just looking productive but even just looking productive but even just looking book-wise you've written basically a book-wise you've written basically a book-wise you've written basically a book a year for the last four years when book a year for the last four years when book a year for the last four years when you're writing when you're thinking you're writing when you're thinking you're writing when you're thinking about how to solve the problems of the about how to solve the problems of the about how to solve the problems of the world to develop your policy how do you think I need quiet time extended periods think I need quiet time extended periods of it that are separated from the Rush of it that are separated from the Rush of it that are separated from the Rush of the day-to-day or the travel I of the day-to-day or the travel I of the day-to-day or the travel I actually think a lot better when I'm actually think a lot better when I'm actually think a lot better when I'm working out and Physically Active so if working out and Physically Active so if working out and Physically Active so if I'm running playing tennis lifting I'm running playing tennis lifting I'm running playing tennis lifting somehow for me that really opens up my somehow for me that really opens up my somehow for me that really opens up my mind and then I need a significant mind and then I need a significant mind and then I need a significant amount of time after that with a amount of time after that with a amount of time after that with a notebook I usually carry around a notebook I usually carry around a notebook I usually carry around a notebook everywhere I go and write it notebook everywhere I go and write it notebook everywhere I go and write it down in there is the notebook full of down in there is the notebook full of down in there is the notebook full of chaotic thoughts or is it structured is chaotic thoughts or is it structured is chaotic thoughts or is it structured is it sometimes it's chaotic sometimes it's it sometimes it's chaotic sometimes it's it sometimes it's chaotic sometimes it's structured it's a little bit of structured it's a little bit of structured it's a little bit of both sometimes I have a thought that I

both sometimes I have a thought that I both sometimes I have a thought that I know I don't want to forget later I'll know I don't want to forget later I'll know I don't want to forget later I'll immediately jot it down other times s immediately jot it down other times s immediately jot it down other times s you know on the flight over here I had a you know on the flight over here I had a you know on the flight over here I had a much more structured layout of I got a much more structured layout of I got a much more structured layout of I got a lot of different projects in the air for lot of different projects in the air for lot of different projects in the air for example and I cross-pollinate you know I example and I cross-pollinate you know I example and I cross-pollinate you know I was in the shower this morning had a was in the shower this morning had a was in the shower this morning had a bunch of thoughts collected those on my bunch of thoughts collected those on my bunch of thoughts collected those on my plane ride over here so I think that um plane ride over here so I think that um plane ride over here so I think that um riding is something in all of its forms riding is something in all of its forms riding is something in all of its forms that helps me it's one of the one of the that helps me it's one of the one of the that helps me it's one of the one of the things actually helped me this year was things actually helped me this year was things actually helped me this year was actually writing this actually writing this actually writing this book you're going through a presidential book you're going through a presidential book you're going through a presidential campaign you're going at super speed and campaign you're going at super speed and campaign you're going at super speed and if I was to do the presidential campaign if I was to do the presidential campaign if I was to do the presidential campaign again the thing I would do is actually again the thing I would do is actually again the thing I would do is actually to take more to take more to take more structured breaks I don't mean breaks as structured breaks I don't mean breaks as structured breaks I don't mean breaks as in just like vacations but I mean breaks in just like vacations but I mean breaks in just like vacations but I mean breaks to reflect on what's actually to reflect on what's actually to reflect on what's actually happening probably the biggest mistake I happening probably the biggest mistake I happening probably the biggest mistake I made is last time around heading into made is last time around heading into made is last time around heading into the first debate I was like in N nine the first debate I was like in N nine the first debate I was like in N nine different states over seven days I would different states over seven days I would different states over seven days I would have just taken that as a pause right have just taken that as a pause right have just taken that as a pause right we're at halfway through you've we're at halfway through you've we're at halfway through you've established established established relevance now make sure the country sees relevance now make sure the country sees relevance now make sure the country sees who you actually are in full rather than who you actually are in full rather than who you actually are in full rather than just the momentum competitive driven just the momentum competitive driven just the momentum competitive driven version of you and I I just think that version of you and I I just think that version of you and I I just think that that sort of those taking those moments that sort of those taking those moments that sort of those taking those moments to just take stock of where you are do to just take stock of where you are do to just take stock of where you are do some writing I didn't do much writing some writing I didn't do much writing some writing I didn't do much writing during the presidential campaign I enjoy during the presidential campaign I enjoy during the presidential campaign I enjoy writing it's part of how I Center myself writing it's part of how I Center myself writing it's part of how I Center myself it's part of what this book allowed me it's part of what this book allowed me it's part of what this book allowed me to do is okay I ran that Whirlwind of a to do is okay I ran that Whirlwind of a to do is okay I ran that Whirlwind of a campaign the first thing I started doing campaign the first thing I started doing campaign the first thing I started doing after I collected myself for a couple of after I collected myself for a couple of after I collected myself for a couple of weeks was take the pen and start writing weeks was take the pen and start writing weeks was take the pen and start writing and I was committed to writing that book and I was committed to writing that book and I was committed to writing that book whether or not anybody read it I was whether or not anybody read it I was whether or not anybody read it I was just writing it for myself and actually

just writing it for myself and actually just writing it for myself and actually it started in a very different form it it started in a very different form it it started in a very different form it was very personal reflection oriented so was very personal reflection oriented so was very personal reflection oriented so most of that funny enough I've learned most of that funny enough I've learned most of that funny enough I've learned about writing the books Lex is edit it about writing the books Lex is edit it about writing the books Lex is edit it out it just didn't end up in the book out it just didn't end up in the book out it just didn't end up in the book because it went went in a different because it went went in a different because it went went in a different direction than like what's interesting direction than like what's interesting direction than like what's interesting for a publisher to publish yeah and so for a publisher to publish yeah and so for a publisher to publish yeah and so for each of my books the things that I for each of my books the things that I for each of my books the things that I started writing ended up never in the started writing ended up never in the started writing ended up never in the book anyway just because the topic ended book anyway just because the topic ended book anyway just because the topic ended up morphing but the journey that led me up morphing but the journey that led me up morphing but the journey that led me to write this book A lot of it in this to write this book A lot of it in this to write this book A lot of it in this book is still in there uh this is my book is still in there uh this is my book is still in there uh this is my fourth book in four years you're right fourth book in four years you're right fourth book in four years you're right and I hope it's the most important one and I hope it's the most important one and I hope it's the most important one but it is certainly the product of an but it is certainly the product of an but it is certainly the product of an honest reflection that honest reflection that honest reflection that whatever it might do for the reader it whatever it might do for the reader it whatever it might do for the reader it helped me to write it and you know I helped me to write it and you know I helped me to write it and you know I think that's one of the things that I think that's one of the things that I think that's one of the things that I learned from this campaign was not just learned from this campaign was not just learned from this campaign was not just all the policy lessons but even just as all the policy lessons but even just as all the policy lessons but even just as a matter of personal a matter of personal a matter of personal practice the ability to take spaces of practice the ability to take spaces of practice the ability to take spaces of time to not only you know physically time to not only you know physically time to not only you know physically challenge yourself work out Etc but to challenge yourself work out Etc but to challenge yourself work out Etc but to give yourself the space to reflect to give yourself the space to reflect to give yourself the space to reflect to reenter yourself on the why had I done reenter yourself on the why had I done reenter yourself on the why had I done that I think I would have been even more that I think I would have been even more that I think I would have been even more centered on the the mission the whole centered on the the mission the whole centered on the the mission the whole time rather than you know you get time rather than you know you get time rather than you know you get attacked on the way you're thrown off attacked on the way you're thrown off attacked on the way you're thrown off your tilt or thrown off your balance it your tilt or thrown off your balance it your tilt or thrown off your balance it becomes a lot harder for someone else to becomes a lot harder for someone else to becomes a lot harder for someone else to do that to you if you've really centered do that to you if you've really centered do that to you if you've really centered yourself on your own purpose it's yourself on your own purpose it's yourself on your own purpose it's probably one of my biggest learnings so probably one of my biggest learnings so probably one of my biggest learnings so you've mentioned uh the first primary you've mentioned uh the first primary you've mentioned uh the first primary debate so more than almost basically debate so more than almost basically debate so more than almost basically anybody I've ever seen you step into anybody I've ever seen you step into anybody I've ever seen you step into some really intense debates yeah on your some really intense debates yeah on your some really intense debates yeah on your own podcast but in in general kind of in own podcast but in in general kind of in own podcast but in in general kind of in all kinds of walks of life whether it's

all kinds of walks of life whether it's all kinds of walks of life whether it's sort of debates with sort of protest s sort of debates with sort of protest s sort of debates with sort of protest s or debates with people that really or debates with people that really or debates with people that really disagree with you like the radical disagree with you like the radical disagree with you like the radical opposite of you um what's the what's the opposite of you um what's the what's the opposite of you um what's the what's the philosophy behind that and what's the philosophy behind that and what's the philosophy behind that and what's the psychology of being able to be calm psychology of being able to be calm psychology of being able to be calm through all of that which you seem to be through all of that which you seem to be through all of that which you seem to be able I enjoy debate and for me I think able I enjoy debate and for me I think able I enjoy debate and for me I think just in ordinary life forget about like just in ordinary life forget about like just in ordinary life forget about like a formal debate setting whenever I've a formal debate setting whenever I've a formal debate setting whenever I've received criticism or a contrary view my received criticism or a contrary view my received criticism or a contrary view my first impulse is always are they right first impulse is always are they right first impulse is always are they right I it's always a possibility right and I it's always a possibility right and I it's always a possibility right and most of the time what happens is you most of the time what happens is you most of the time what happens is you understand the other side's argument but understand the other side's argument but understand the other side's argument but you emerge with a stronger conviction in you emerge with a stronger conviction in you emerge with a stronger conviction in your own belief right you you know your your own belief right you you know your your own belief right you you know your own beliefs better if you can State the own beliefs better if you can State the own beliefs better if you can State the best argument for the other side but best argument for the other side but best argument for the other side but sometimes you do change your mind and I sometimes you do change your mind and I sometimes you do change your mind and I think that that's happened over the think that that's happened over the think that that's happened over the course of my life as well I think no course of my life as well I think no course of my life as well I think no one's a thinking human being unless that one's a thinking human being unless that one's a thinking human being unless that happens once in a while too and so happens once in a while too and so happens once in a while too and so anyway just the idea of the pursuit of anyway just the idea of the pursuit of anyway just the idea of the pursuit of Truth through open debate and inquiry Truth through open debate and inquiry Truth through open debate and inquiry that's always just been part of my ident that's always just been part of my ident that's always just been part of my ident identity part of who I am I'm wired that identity part of who I am I'm wired that identity part of who I am I'm wired that way I thrive on it I enjoy it even my way I thrive on it I enjoy it even my way I thrive on it I enjoy it even my relationships with my closest friends relationships with my closest friends relationships with my closest friends are built around he debates and are built around he debates and are built around he debates and deep-seated agreement deep-seated agreement deep-seated agreement disagreements and you I just think disagreements and you I just think disagreements and you I just think that's beautiful not just about human that's beautiful not just about human that's beautiful not just about human relationships but it's particularly relationships but it's particularly relationships but it's particularly beautiful about America right because beautiful about America right because beautiful about America right because it's part of the culture of this country it's part of the culture of this country it's part of the culture of this country more so than you know other countries more so than you know other countries more so than you know other countries you know China or India you know Asian you know China or India you know Asian you know China or India you know Asian cultures even a lot of European cultures cultures even a lot of European cultures cultures even a lot of European cultures are very different where that's

are very different where that's are very different where that's considered considered considered not gential Behavior it's not the not gential Behavior it's not the not gential Behavior it's not the respectful Behavior whereas for us you respectful Behavior whereas for us you respectful Behavior whereas for us you know part of what makes this country know part of what makes this country know part of what makes this country great is you could disagree like hell great is you could disagree like hell great is you could disagree like hell and still get together at the dinner and still get together at the dinner and still get together at the dinner table at the end of it I think we've table at the end of it I think we've table at the end of it I think we've lost some of that but I'm I'm on a bit lost some of that but I'm I'm on a bit lost some of that but I'm I'm on a bit of a mission to bring that back and so I of a mission to bring that back and so I of a mission to bring that back and so I whether it's in politics or not I'm whether it's in politics or not I'm whether it's in politics or not I'm committed in that next step whatever the committed in that next step whatever the committed in that next step whatever the path is over the next four years one of path is over the next four years one of path is over the next four years one of the things I'm committed to doing is the things I'm committed to doing is the things I'm committed to doing is making sure that I go out of my way to making sure that I go out of my way to making sure that I go out of my way to talk to people who actually disagree talk to people who actually disagree talk to people who actually disagree with me and I think it's a big part of with me and I think it's a big part of with me and I think it's a big part of how we're going to save our country are how we're going to save our country are how we're going to save our country are they right is the thing I actually they right is the thing I actually they right is the thing I actually literally see you do so you are literally see you do so you are literally see you do so you are listening to the other person it's for listening to the other person it's for listening to the other person it's for my own benefit to be honest selfish you my own benefit to be honest selfish you my own benefit to be honest selfish you also don't lose your so you don't also don't lose your so you don't also don't lose your so you don't take it personally you don't get take it personally you don't get take it personally you don't get emotional well you get emotional sort of emotional well you get emotional sort of emotional well you get emotional sort of in a positive way you get passionate but in a positive way you get passionate but in a positive way you get passionate but you don't get it doesn't you I've never you don't get it doesn't you I've never you don't get it doesn't you I've never seen you broken yeah like uh to where seen you broken yeah like uh to where seen you broken yeah like uh to where they to they get you like outraged it's they to they get you like outraged it's they to they get you like outraged it's always probably because you just love always probably because you just love always probably because you just love the heat I love the Heat and I'm a the heat I love the Heat and I'm a the heat I love the Heat and I'm a curious person so I'm kind of I'm always curious person so I'm kind of I'm always curious person so I'm kind of I'm always curious about what's actually getting curious about what's actually getting curious about what's actually getting the other what's motivating the person the other what's motivating the person the other what's motivating the person on the other side that Curiosity I think on the other side that Curiosity I think on the other side that Curiosity I think is actually the best antidote right is actually the best antidote right is actually the best antidote right because if you're just try to stay calm because if you're just try to stay calm because if you're just try to stay calm in the face of somebody attacking you in the face of somebody attacking you in the face of somebody attacking you that that's kind of fake but if you're that that's kind of fake but if you're that that's kind of fake but if you're kind of curious about them right kind of curious about them right kind of curious about them right genuinely just genuinely just genuinely just wondering I think most people are good wondering I think most people are good wondering I think most people are good people inherently we we all maybe get people inherently we we all maybe get people inherently we we all maybe get misguided from time to time but what's

misguided from time to time but what's misguided from time to time but what's actually actually actually what is it that's moving that person to what is it that's moving that person to what is it that's moving that person to go in such a different direction than go in such a different direction than go in such a different direction than you I think as long as you're curious you I think as long as you're curious you I think as long as you're curious about that you know I mean the climate about that you know I mean the climate about that you know I mean the climate change protesters that have interrupted change protesters that have interrupted change protesters that have interrupted my my my events I'm as fascinated by the events I'm as fascinated by the events I'm as fascinated by the psychology of what's moving them and psychology of what's moving them and psychology of what's moving them and what they might be hungry for as I am what they might be hungry for as I am what they might be hungry for as I am concerned about rebutting the content of concerned about rebutting the content of concerned about rebutting the content of what they're saying to me and I think what they're saying to me and I think what they're saying to me and I think that that's that that's that that's certainly something I I care to revive certainly something I I care to revive certainly something I I care to revive we don't talk about in politics that we don't talk about in politics that we don't talk about in politics that much but Reviving that sense of much but Reviving that sense of much but Reviving that sense of curiosity I think is in in a certain way curiosity I think is in in a certain way curiosity I think is in in a certain way one of the ways we're going to be able one of the ways we're going to be able one of the ways we're going to be able to disagree but still remain friends and to disagree but still remain friends and to disagree but still remain friends and fellow citizens at the end of it I agree fellow citizens at the end of it I agree fellow citizens at the end of it I agree with you I think fundamentally most with you I think fundamentally most with you I think fundamentally most people are good and one of the things I people are good and one of the things I people are good and one of the things I love most about humans is the very thing love most about humans is the very thing love most about humans is the very thing you said which is curiosity I think we you said which is curiosity I think we you said which is curiosity I think we should lean into that you're a curious should lean into that you're a curious should lean into that you're a curious person I know this podcast is basically person I know this podcast is basically person I know this podcast is basically born of your curiosity I'm sure and so I born of your curiosity I'm sure and so I born of your curiosity I'm sure and so I just think we need more of that in just think we need more of that in just think we need more of that in America that kind of you when I talked America that kind of you when I talked America that kind of you when I talked about our founding fathers we were J about our founding fathers we were J about our founding fathers we were J Bren about it but they were inventors Bren about it but they were inventors Bren about it but they were inventors they were writers they were political they were writers they were political they were writers they were political theorists they were founders of a Nation theorists they were founders of a Nation theorists they were founders of a Nation they kind of had that boundless they kind of had that boundless they kind of had that boundless curiosity too and I think part of what's curiosity too and I think part of what's curiosity too and I think part of what's happened culturally in the country is happened culturally in the country is happened culturally in the country is we've gotten to this place we've gotten to this place we've gotten to this place where you know we've been told that stay where you know we've been told that stay where you know we've been told that stay in your lane you know you don't have an in your lane you know you don't have an in your lane you know you don't have an expert degree in that therefore you expert degree in that therefore you expert degree in that therefore you can't have an opinion about it I don't can't have an opinion about it I don't can't have an opinion about it I don't know I think that's not it's a little know I think that's not it's a little know I think that's not it's a little bit unamerican in terms of the culture bit unamerican in terms of the culture bit unamerican in terms of the culture of it and yeah it's one of the things I of it and yeah it's one of the things I of it and yeah it's one of the things I like about you and why was looking like about you and why was looking like about you and why was looking forward to this conversation too is it's

forward to this conversation too is it's forward to this conversation too is it's cool to have intellectual interests that cool to have intellectual interests that cool to have intellectual interests that span Sports to culture to politics to span Sports to culture to politics to span Sports to culture to politics to philosophy and it's not like you just philosophy and it's not like you just philosophy and it's not like you just have to be an expert trained in one of have to be an expert trained in one of have to be an expert trained in one of those things to be able to engage in it those things to be able to engage in it those things to be able to engage in it but actually maybe just maybe you might but actually maybe just maybe you might but actually maybe just maybe you might even be better at each of those things even be better at each of those things even be better at each of those things because you're curious about the other because you're curious about the other because you're curious about the other the renaissance man if you will I think the renaissance man if you will I think the renaissance man if you will I think we've lost a little bit of that that we've lost a little bit of that that we've lost a little bit of that that Concept in America but uh it's certainly Concept in America but uh it's certainly Concept in America but uh it's certainly something that is important to me and something that is important to me and something that is important to me and this year it's been kind of cool after this year it's been kind of cool after this year it's been kind of cool after leaving the campaign I've been doing leaving the campaign I've been doing leaving the campaign I've been doing I've been doing a wide range of things I've been doing a wide range of things I've been doing a wide range of things right I've been uh picking up my tennis right I've been uh picking up my tennis right I've been uh picking up my tennis game again I practiced at the Ohio game again I practiced at the Ohio game again I practiced at the Ohio you're damn good at tennis I was you're damn good at tennis I was you're damn good at tennis I was watching I used to be used to be better watching I used to be used to be better watching I used to be used to be better but I'm picking it somebody online was but I'm picking it somebody online was but I'm picking it somebody online was trying to correctly I I think I think trying to correctly I I think I think trying to correctly I I think I think you shot a very particular angle of that you shot a very particular angle of that you shot a very particular angle of that video I think they were criticizing your video I think they were criticizing your video I think they were criticizing your backhand was weak potentially cuz you're backhand was weak potentially cuz you're backhand was weak potentially cuz you're that would be a fair that would be a fair that would be a fair criticism but but it's gotten better criticism but but it's gotten better criticism but but it's gotten better again it's gotten better recently I've again it's gotten better recently I've again it's gotten better recently I've been playing with the um I've practicing been playing with the um I've practicing been playing with the um I've practicing with the Ohio State team in the morning with the Ohio State team in the morning with the Ohio State team in the morning they're like number one in the country they're like number one in the country they're like number one in the country or close to it now the guys on the team or close to it now the guys on the team or close to it now the guys on the team play but there's a couple coaches who play but there's a couple coaches who play but there's a couple coaches who were recently on the team one of whom were recently on the team one of whom were recently on the team one of whom used to be a guy used to play with in used to be a guy used to play with in used to be a guy used to play with in the Juniors who invited me out so I hit the Juniors who invited me out so I hit the Juniors who invited me out so I hit with them in the mornings alongside the with them in the mornings alongside the with them in the mornings alongside the team my goal I I'm I should be I should team my goal I I'm I should be I should team my goal I I'm I should be I should be I should be careful be I should be careful be I should be careful here oh no my hips my hips are telling here oh no my hips my hips are telling here oh no my hips my hips are telling I've been playing so many days a week I've been playing so many days a week I've been playing so many days a week that uh that I I set a goal for myself that uh that I I set a goal for myself that uh that I I set a goal for myself by the end of the to play in a by the end of the to play in a by the end of the to play in a particular tournament but we'll see if particular tournament but we'll see if particular tournament but we'll see if that happens or not no no but regardless

that happens or not no no but regardless that happens or not no no but regardless it's been fun to get back into tennis I it's been fun to get back into tennis I it's been fun to get back into tennis I um I I was an executive producer on a um I I was an executive producer on a um I I was an executive producer on a movie something I've never done before movie something I've never done before movie something I've never done before it's called City of Dreams it's about a it's called City of Dreams it's about a it's called City of Dreams it's about a story of a young man who was trafficked story of a young man who was trafficked story of a young man who was trafficked into the United States it's a thriller into the United States it's a thriller into the United States it's a thriller it's a very cool movie to be a part of it's a very cool movie to be a part of it's a very cool movie to be a part of I've actually uh started a couple I've actually uh started a couple I've actually uh started a couple companies one company in particular that companies one company in particular that companies one company in particular that I think is going to be significant this I think is going to be significant this I think is going to be significant this year guiding some of the other year guiding some of the other year guiding some of the other businesses that I've gotten off the businesses that I've gotten off the businesses that I've gotten off the ground in the past so for me I'm I'm ground in the past so for me I'm I'm ground in the past so for me I'm I'm re-energized now where I was in Pol in re-energized now where I was in Pol in re-energized now where I was in Pol in the thick of politics for a full year the thick of politics for a full year the thick of politics for a full year there and getting a little bit of oxygen there and getting a little bit of oxygen there and getting a little bit of oxygen outside of politics doing some things in outside of politics doing some things in outside of politics doing some things in the private sector has actually given me the private sector has actually given me the private sector has actually given me a renewed sense of of energy to you know a renewed sense of of energy to you know a renewed sense of of energy to you know get back into driving change through get back into driving change through get back into driving change through Public Service well it's been uh fun Public Service well it's been uh fun Public Service well it's been uh fun watching you do all these fascinating watching you do all these fascinating watching you do all these fascinating things but I I do hope that you have a things but I I do hope that you have a things but I I do hope that you have a future in politics as well because it's future in politics as well because it's future in politics as well because it's nice to have somebody that uh nice to have somebody that uh nice to have somebody that uh uh has rigorously developed their ideas uh has rigorously developed their ideas uh has rigorously developed their ideas and is honest about presenting them and and is honest about presenting them and and is honest about presenting them and is uh willing to debate those ideas out is uh willing to debate those ideas out is uh willing to debate those ideas out in public space so I would love for you in public space so I would love for you in public space so I would love for you and people like you to represent the and people like you to represent the and people like you to represent the future of American politics so uh V future of American politics so uh V future of American politics so uh V thank you so much uh for every time I'm thank you so much uh for every time I'm thank you so much uh for every time I'm swiveling this chair I'm thinking of swiveling this chair I'm thinking of swiveling this chair I'm thinking of Thomas Jefferson it's good that was my Thomas Jefferson it's good that was my Thomas Jefferson it's good that was my goal so big shout out to Thomas goal so big shout out to Thomas goal so big shout out to Thomas Jefferson for the for the swivel chair Jefferson for the for the swivel chair Jefferson for the for the swivel chair and thank you so much for talking today and thank you so much for talking today and thank you so much for talking today this was fun thank you man one final this was fun thank you man one final this was fun thank you man one final fact to Thomas Jefferson whether you cut fact to Thomas Jefferson whether you cut fact to Thomas Jefferson whether you cut this or of course he wrote he wrote

this or of course he wrote he wrote this or of course he wrote he wrote 16,000 essays in his life letters right 16,000 essays in his life letters right 16,000 essays in his life letters right so you I've written four books in four so you I've written four books in four so you I've written four books in four years that is nothing compared to you years that is nothing compared to you years that is nothing compared to you know how prolific this guy was anyway know how prolific this guy was anyway know how prolific this guy was anyway anyway good stuff man thanks for having anyway good stuff man thanks for having anyway good stuff man thanks for having me neither of us will ever live up to me neither of us will ever live up to me neither of us will ever live up to anything close to Thomas Jefferson I anything close to Thomas Jefferson I anything close to Thomas Jefferson I love your curiosity man thanks for you love your curiosity man thanks for you love your curiosity man thanks for you know reading the book and appreciated know reading the book and appreciated know reading the book and appreciated your feedback on it as well and you know your feedback on it as well and you know your feedback on it as well and you know hopefully we'll do this again sometime hopefully we'll do this again sometime hopefully we'll do this again sometime yep thank you brother thanks dude yep thank you brother thanks dude yep thank you brother thanks dude thanks for listening to this thanks for listening to this thanks for listening to this conversation with VC ramaswami to conversation with VC ramaswami to conversation with VC ramaswami to support this podcast please check out support this podcast please check out support this podcast please check out our sponsors in the description and now our sponsors in the description and now our sponsors in the description and now let me leave you with some words from let me leave you with some words from let me leave you with some words from George George George Orwell political language is designed to Orwell political language is designed to Orwell political language is designed to make lies sound truthful and murder make lies sound truthful and murder make lies sound truthful and murder respectable and to give an appearance of respectable and to give an appearance of respectable and to give an appearance of solidity to Pure solidity to Pure solidity to Pure wind thank you for listening and hope to wind thank you for listening and hope to wind thank you for listening and hope to see you next time