Jack Weatherford: Genghis Khan and the Mongol Empire | Lex Fridman Podcast #476

The following is a conversation with The following is a conversation with Jack Weatherford, anthropologist and Jack Weatherford, anthropologist and Jack Weatherford, anthropologist and historian specializing in Djangghaskhan historian specializing in Djangghaskhan historian specializing in Djangghaskhan and the Mongol Empire. He has written a and the Mongol Empire. He has written a and the Mongol Empire. He has written a legendary book on this topic titled legendary book on this topic titled legendary book on this topic titled Jenis Khan and the making of the modern Jenis Khan and the making of the modern Jenis Khan and the making of the modern world. And he has written many other world. And he has written many other world. And he has written many other books including Emperor of the Seas, books including Emperor of the Seas, books including Emperor of the Seas, Kubla Khan and the Making of China, Kubla Khan and the Making of China, Kubla Khan and the Making of China, Jangghask Khan and the Quest for God, Jangghask Khan and the Quest for God, Jangghask Khan and the Quest for God, The Secret History of the Mongol Queens, The Secret History of the Mongol Queens, The Secret History of the Mongol Queens, and other excellent books. I've gotten and other excellent books. I've gotten and other excellent books. I've gotten to know Jack more after this to know Jack more after this to know Jack more after this conversation, and I cannot speak highly conversation, and I cannot speak highly conversation, and I cannot speak highly enough about him. He's a truly enough about him. He's a truly enough about him. He's a truly brilliant, thoughtful, and kind soul. brilliant, thoughtful, and kind soul. brilliant, thoughtful, and kind soul. This was a huge honor and pleasure for This was a huge honor and pleasure for This was a huge honor and pleasure for me. This is the Lex Freedman podcast. To me. This is the Lex Freedman podcast. To me. This is the Lex Freedman podcast. To support it, please check out our support it, please check out our support it, please check out our sponsors in the description and consider sponsors in the description and consider sponsors in the description and consider subscribing to this channel. And now, subscribing to this channel. And now, subscribing to this channel. And now, dear friends, here's Jack Weatherford. dear friends, here's Jack Weatherford. dear friends, here's Jack Weatherford. Jenghis Khan, born in approximately Jenghis Khan, born in approximately Jenghis Khan, born in approximately 1162, 1162, 1162, became the conqueror of the largest became the conqueror of the largest became the conqueror of the largest contiguous empire in history. But before contiguous empire in history. But before contiguous empire in history. But before that he was a boy named Teigjin who at 9 that he was a boy named Teigjin who at 9 that he was a boy named Teigjin who at 9 years old lost everything his father his years old lost everything his father his years old lost everything his father his tribe living in poverty abandoned to the tribe living in poverty abandoned to the tribe living in poverty abandoned to the harshness of the Mongolian step from a harshness of the Mongolian step from a harshness of the Mongolian step from a boy with nothing to the conqueror of the boy with nothing to the conqueror of the boy with nothing to the conqueror of the world. though tell me about this boy his world. though tell me about this boy his world. though tell me about this boy his childhood and uh the Mongolian step from childhood and uh the Mongolian step from childhood and uh the Mongolian step from which he came from which he came from which he came from >> the story of Jenis Khan like the story I >> the story of Jenis Khan like the story I >> the story of Jenis Khan like the story I think of all of us it doesn't begin at

think of all of us it doesn't begin at think of all of us it doesn't begin at birth it begins that's the beginning of birth it begins that's the beginning of birth it begins that's the beginning of life the story begins long before birth life the story begins long before birth life the story begins long before birth and sometimes it can be many generations and sometimes it can be many generations and sometimes it can be many generations before and sometimes only shortly before before and sometimes only shortly before before and sometimes only shortly before but I think with Jenga Khan a crucial but I think with Jenga Khan a crucial but I think with Jenga Khan a crucial thing is to understand how his parents thing is to understand how his parents thing is to understand how his parents met and then how he was conceived and met and then how he was conceived and met and then how he was conceived and that is that one day that is that one day that is that one day a cart was coming across the Mongol a cart was coming across the Mongol a cart was coming across the Mongol territory and only women drove carts. territory and only women drove carts. territory and only women drove carts. Men rode horses. Women also rode horses Men rode horses. Women also rode horses Men rode horses. Women also rode horses but women owned the houses which were but women owned the houses which were but women owned the houses which were called gears, the tents. They owned all called gears, the tents. They owned all called gears, the tents. They owned all the household equipment and so they had the household equipment and so they had the household equipment and so they had to have carts for moving back and forth. to have carts for moving back and forth. to have carts for moving back and forth. And the fact that a cart was moving And the fact that a cart was moving And the fact that a cart was moving meant that some woman was moving from meant that some woman was moving from meant that some woman was moving from one place to another. And in fact her one place to another. And in fact her one place to another. And in fact her husband was with her. She was a new husband was with her. She was a new husband was with her. She was a new bride and her husband bride and her husband bride and her husband uh was on a horse close to her. So what uh was on a horse close to her. So what uh was on a horse close to her. So what happened was a man named Yasuk. Yasuk happened was a man named Yasuk. Yasuk happened was a man named Yasuk. Yasuk the future father of Jenghaskhan. Yasuk the future father of Jenghaskhan. Yasuk the future father of Jenghaskhan. Yasuk was up on a hill. He was hunting with was up on a hill. He was hunting with was up on a hill. He was hunting with his falcon. The words of the secret his falcon. The words of the secret his falcon. The words of the secret history of the Mongols were very clear.

history of the Mongols were very clear. history of the Mongols were very clear. And he looked down and he saw her and he And he looked down and he saw her and he And he looked down and he saw her and he could barely glimpse her. He knew she could barely glimpse her. He knew she could barely glimpse her. He knew she was young and she was a new bride. And was young and she was a new bride. And was young and she was a new bride. And he rode back to camp. He got his two he rode back to camp. He got his two he rode back to camp. He got his two brothers and they came racing down. And brothers and they came racing down. And brothers and they came racing down. And they came and first the husband they came and first the husband they came and first the husband of the woman looked around and he of the woman looked around and he of the woman looked around and he decided to flee. Not because he was a decided to flee. Not because he was a decided to flee. Not because he was a coward, but he figured he would probably coward, but he figured he would probably coward, but he figured he would probably pull the men after him. They would chase pull the men after him. They would chase pull the men after him. They would chase him. And they did. They chased him. He him. And they did. They chased him. He him. And they did. They chased him. He went far away. He circled around. He went far away. He circled around. He went far away. He circled around. He came back. He arrived back at the cart came back. He arrived back at the cart came back. He arrived back at the cart where his wife was. Her name was Erlun. where his wife was. Her name was Erlun. where his wife was. Her name was Erlun. And Erlun had time to think while he was And Erlun had time to think while he was And Erlun had time to think while he was riding around being chased by the riding around being chased by the riding around being chased by the Mongols. And she decided Mongols. And she decided Mongols. And she decided that it's more important for him to that it's more important for him to that it's more important for him to live. And she told him when he came live. And she told him when he came live. And she told him when he came back, you must flee. If you stay here, back, you must flee. If you stay here, back, you must flee. If you stay here, they will kill you and they will take they will kill you and they will take they will kill you and they will take me. But if you flee, they will take me, me. But if you flee, they will take me, me. But if you flee, they will take me, but you will have the chance to find but you will have the chance to find but you will have the chance to find another wife. There are many women in another wife. There are many women in another wife. There are many women in the world. You find one and you call her the world. You find one and you call her the world. You find one and you call her hulan after my name and you remember me hulan after my name and you remember me hulan after my name and you remember me when you're with her. Was a very when you're with her. Was a very when you're with her. Was a very dramatic moment. And he rode away and he dramatic moment. And he rode away and he dramatic moment. And he rode away and he looked back and forth and it said that looked back and forth and it said that looked back and forth and it said that the pigtails or the braids that were the pigtails or the braids that were the pigtails or the braids that were hanging down were whipping back and hanging down were whipping back and hanging down were whipping back and forth from his chest to his back. Uh he forth from his chest to his back. Uh he forth from his chest to his back. Uh he was divided obviously in whether he was divided obviously in whether he was divided obviously in whether he should go or stay. But the three men

should go or stay. But the three men should go or stay. But the three men were approaching again. and they were were approaching again. and they were were approaching again. and they were headed straight for the cart this time. headed straight for the cart this time. headed straight for the cart this time. And they came in and they took Erlun. And they came in and they took Erlun. And they came in and they took Erlun. She didn't say a word until her husband She didn't say a word until her husband She didn't say a word until her husband was over the ridge. And when he was over was over the ridge. And when he was over was over the ridge. And when he was over the ridge and she could no longer see the ridge and she could no longer see the ridge and she could no longer see him, she began to scream and whail. And him, she began to scream and whail. And him, she began to scream and whail. And one of the brothers said to her, one of the brothers said to her, one of the brothers said to her, "Doesn't matter if you shake the waters "Doesn't matter if you shake the waters "Doesn't matter if you shake the waters out of the river and if you shake the out of the river and if you shake the out of the river and if you shake the mountains with your screaming, you will mountains with your screaming, you will mountains with your screaming, you will never see this man again." And he was never see this man again." And he was never see this man again." And he was right. And that was the moment that right. And that was the moment that right. And that was the moment that Jenis Khan's mother and father met. Jenis Khan's mother and father met. Jenis Khan's mother and father met. That's the beginning of his story in That's the beginning of his story in That's the beginning of his story in this kidnapping. And it's going to this kidnapping. And it's going to this kidnapping. And it's going to reverberate. every detail of it will reverberate. every detail of it will reverberate. every detail of it will come back again and again not only come back again and again not only come back again and again not only throughout the story of the life of throughout the story of the life of throughout the story of the life of Ching Han but it's going to continue on Ching Han but it's going to continue on Ching Han but it's going to continue on with the feuds and the issues caused by with the feuds and the issues caused by with the feuds and the issues caused by it all the way into the future and to it all the way into the future and to it all the way into the future and to some extent in certain parts of the some extent in certain parts of the some extent in certain parts of the world you could say it still exists.

world you could say it still exists. world you could say it still exists. >> So the meeting is fundamentally uh sort >> So the meeting is fundamentally uh sort >> So the meeting is fundamentally uh sort of a mixture of heartbreak and dark of a mixture of heartbreak and dark of a mixture of heartbreak and dark criminal type of kidnapping. Yes. criminal type of kidnapping. Yes. criminal type of kidnapping. Yes. >> And from that is conceived this >> And from that is conceived this >> And from that is conceived this conqueror of the the biggest contiguous conqueror of the the biggest contiguous conqueror of the the biggest contiguous empire in history. empire in history. empire in history. >> What I was really interested in was >> What I was really interested in was >> What I was really interested in was how did this happen? Who was this how did this happen? Who was this how did this happen? Who was this person? As as Wsworth wrote in his poem, person? As as Wsworth wrote in his poem, person? As as Wsworth wrote in his poem, you know, the child is father of the man you know, the child is father of the man you know, the child is father of the man and it's the childhood that created him and it's the childhood that created him and it's the childhood that created him and it's that episode that was before he and it's that episode that was before he and it's that episode that was before he was born. But all the things that was born. But all the things that was born. But all the things that happened throughout his childhood happened throughout his childhood happened throughout his childhood made him into the man that he became. made him into the man that he became. made him into the man that he became. And so he was now suddenly And so he was now suddenly And so he was now suddenly this unusual situation was created where this unusual situation was created where this unusual situation was created where a child is going to be born to a a child is going to be born to a a child is going to be born to a kidnapped woman who is being held by kidnapped woman who is being held by kidnapped woman who is being held by strange people. The Mongols, they were strange people. The Mongols, they were strange people. The Mongols, they were not her people. Uh and he already had not her people. Uh and he already had not her people. Uh and he already had another wife or husband. He had a wife another wife or husband. He had a wife another wife or husband. He had a wife named Soigo. He had at that time already named Soigo. He had at that time already named Soigo. He had at that time already one son. Later he had another son with one son. Later he had another son with one son. Later he had another son with her. It was a very odd situation. And in her. It was a very odd situation. And in her. It was a very odd situation. And in fact the father Yasuk wasn't even there fact the father Yasuk wasn't even there fact the father Yasuk wasn't even there when Timujin was born. He was off when Timujin was born. He was off when Timujin was born. He was off fighting the Tatars. And during this fighting the Tatars. And during this fighting the Tatars. And during this campaign against the Tatars, he killed campaign against the Tatars, he killed campaign against the Tatars, he killed two Tatars. One of them was naming two Tatars. One of them was naming two Tatars. One of them was naming Timujin U, which is sort of person of

Timujin U, which is sort of person of Timujin U, which is sort of person of iron is what it means from the Turk. iron is what it means from the Turk. iron is what it means from the Turk. but today part of also Mongolian but today part of also Mongolian but today part of also Mongolian language. language. language. So he came back, he had a baby and he So he came back, he had a baby and he So he came back, he had a baby and he decided to name him Timuin, the person decided to name him Timuin, the person decided to name him Timuin, the person of iron or iron man we might call him of iron or iron man we might call him of iron or iron man we might call him >> after the man he killed. >> after the man he killed. >> after the man he killed. >> After the man he killed. So he has a >> After the man he killed. So he has a >> After the man he killed. So he has a kidnapped mother. She's a second wife kidnapped mother. She's a second wife kidnapped mother. She's a second wife now. Not a legal wife, but just a second now. Not a legal wife, but just a second now. Not a legal wife, but just a second kidnapped wife. And he's named for kidnapped wife. And he's named for kidnapped wife. And he's named for someone his father just killed. It was someone his father just killed. It was someone his father just killed. It was not auspicious beginning. And in fact, not auspicious beginning. And in fact, not auspicious beginning. And in fact, just episode after episode in his just episode after episode in his just episode after episode in his childhood was inospicious. childhood was inospicious. childhood was inospicious. The father and mother moved camp one The father and mother moved camp one The father and mother moved camp one time when he was quite young and somehow time when he was quite young and somehow time when he was quite young and somehow they overlooked him and forgot him. He they overlooked him and forgot him. He they overlooked him and forgot him. He was left behind. So here's this young was left behind. So here's this young was left behind. So here's this young child. We don't know what age but could child. We don't know what age but could child. We don't know what age but could have been around four or five I think. have been around four or five I think. have been around four or five I think. He was left behind and as it turned out He was left behind and as it turned out He was left behind and as it turned out some other people the titute found him some other people the titute found him some other people the titute found him and then they kept him for a while and and then they kept him for a while and and then they kept him for a while and eventually he was reunited with his eventually he was reunited with his eventually he was reunited with his father and mother and it's very odd to father and mother and it's very odd to father and mother and it's very odd to me that I never have any inkling of a me that I never have any inkling of a me that I never have any inkling of a spark of relationship much between the spark of relationship much between the spark of relationship much between the father and the son father and the son father and the son because then when he when Timuin is 8 because then when he when Timuin is 8 because then when he when Timuin is 8 years old his father decides to take him years old his father decides to take him years old his father decides to take him off to find a wife, which finding a wife

off to find a wife, which finding a wife off to find a wife, which finding a wife in the Mongolian terms means you give in the Mongolian terms means you give in the Mongolian terms means you give the child to that family or you give the the child to that family or you give the the child to that family or you give the boy to that family and he will live with boy to that family and he will live with boy to that family and he will live with them and they will raise him up and they them and they will raise him up and they them and they will raise him up and they will train him the way they want before will train him the way they want before will train him the way they want before he can marry their daughter. And so he's he can marry their daughter. And so he's he can marry their daughter. And so he's taking him off at age eight, but he taking him off at age eight, but he taking him off at age eight, but he didn't take the other son from the other didn't take the other son from the other didn't take the other son from the other wife, Becker. wife, Becker. wife, Becker. He was keeping him. There was something He was keeping him. There was something He was keeping him. There was something about Timujin having been lost once and about Timujin having been lost once and about Timujin having been lost once and found by the titute and reunited with found by the titute and reunited with found by the titute and reunited with the family and now his father takes him the family and now his father takes him the family and now his father takes him off at age eight and he was going to off at age eight and he was going to off at age eight and he was going to take him to his to Erlun's family but he take him to his to Erlun's family but he take him to his to Erlun's family but he never made it. He stopped with another never made it. He stopped with another never made it. He stopped with another family. It's sort of like the first family. It's sort of like the first family. It's sort of like the first family came across and uh in the words family came across and uh in the words family came across and uh in the words of the secret history it's a sort of of the secret history it's a sort of of the secret history it's a sort of like instant love that there was fire in like instant love that there was fire in like instant love that there was fire in his eyes and fire in her eyes and he saw his eyes and fire in her eyes and he saw his eyes and fire in her eyes and he saw this girl Bura who was about 9 years old this girl Bura who was about 9 years old this girl Bura who was about 9 years old a little older and he wanted to stay a little older and he wanted to stay a little older and he wanted to stay there with that family according to the there with that family according to the there with that family according to the story and so the father left him there story and so the father left him there story and so the father left him there with that family with that family with that family but on the way home but on the way home but on the way home the father decided the father decided the father decided He saw a drinking party and he decided He saw a drinking party and he decided He saw a drinking party and he decided to join them. They were Tatars. He hid to join them. They were Tatars. He hid to join them. They were Tatars. He hid his identity on the step. Everybody kind his identity on the step. Everybody kind his identity on the step. Everybody kind of figures out who everybody is or they of figures out who everybody is or they of figures out who everybody is or they figured out who he was and supposedly figured out who he was and supposedly figured out who he was and supposedly they poisoned him. He got on his horse they poisoned him. He got on his horse they poisoned him. He got on his horse and was able to ride back home, but

and was able to ride back home, but and was able to ride back home, but within a few days he died. within a few days he died. within a few days he died. So now So now So now Tamujin is off living with another Tamujin is off living with another Tamujin is off living with another family family family and uh somebody comes from his family a and uh somebody comes from his family a and uh somebody comes from his family a family not a relative but a close person family not a relative but a close person family not a relative but a close person named Mongluk comes to get him take him named Mongluk comes to get him take him named Mongluk comes to get him take him back back back and they make it through the winter. and they make it through the winter. and they make it through the winter. They make it through the winter. Mother They make it through the winter. Mother They make it through the winter. Mother Erloom by now she has four sons and one Erloom by now she has four sons and one Erloom by now she has four sons and one daughter. I think the daughter had daughter. I think the daughter had daughter. I think the daughter had already been born or the daughter was already been born or the daughter was already been born or the daughter was going to be born not too long after going to be born not too long after going to be born not too long after that. But they make it through the that. But they make it through the that. But they make it through the winter. winter. winter. The spring comes and of course the clan The spring comes and of course the clan The spring comes and of course the clan is going to move to a new camp. They go is going to move to a new camp. They go is going to move to a new camp. They go to spring camp from winter camp and they to spring camp from winter camp and they to spring camp from winter camp and they have a a ceremony for the ancestors and have a a ceremony for the ancestors and have a a ceremony for the ancestors and they started the ceremony but they did they started the ceremony but they did they started the ceremony but they did not tell Erlun. not tell Erlun. not tell Erlun. And so she came and she was angry that And so she came and she was angry that And so she came and she was angry that she had been left out. And the old women she had been left out. And the old women she had been left out. And the old women said, "You're the one for whom we do not said, "You're the one for whom we do not said, "You're the one for whom we do not have to call. We will feed you if you have to call. We will feed you if you have to call. We will feed you if you come, but we do not have to take care of come, but we do not have to take care of come, but we do not have to take care of you." Letting her know that as a cap as you." Letting her know that as a cap as you." Letting her know that as a cap as a captive woman, she was not a real wife a captive woman, she was not a real wife a captive woman, she was not a real wife in their view.

in their view. in their view. And that was really the signal that when And that was really the signal that when And that was really the signal that when they moved camp, they were not taking they moved camp, they were not taking they moved camp, they were not taking her with them. And they packed up and her with them. And they packed up and her with them. And they packed up and they took her animals. they took her animals. they took her animals. They took the animals. But she at that They took the animals. But she at that They took the animals. But she at that moment she still had one horse for a moment she still had one horse for a moment she still had one horse for a moment and she jumped on the horse and moment and she jumped on the horse and moment and she jumped on the horse and she took the banner of her husband and she took the banner of her husband and she took the banner of her husband and she raced around the people and the she raced around the people and the she raced around the people and the banner after death contains the soul of banner after death contains the soul of banner after death contains the soul of the person s it's called and so she the person s it's called and so she the person s it's called and so she raced around and they were a little bit raced around and they were a little bit raced around and they were a little bit nervous and so they camped for one night nervous and so they camped for one night nervous and so they camped for one night and they waited until it was dark and they waited until it was dark and they waited until it was dark then they took off and this time one of then they took off and this time one of then they took off and this time one of the friends of the family came running the friends of the family came running the friends of the family came running out to try to stop them and they killed out to try to stop them and they killed out to try to stop them and they killed killed him and Tamujin cried. He was a killed him and Tamujin cried. He was a killed him and Tamujin cried. He was a little boy, 8 years old. There was little boy, 8 years old. There was little boy, 8 years old. There was nothing he could do. He's just a little nothing he could do. He's just a little nothing he could do. He's just a little boy. And now that family is left there boy. And now that family is left there boy. And now that family is left there on the step, four children, possibly on the step, four children, possibly on the step, four children, possibly five already.

five already. five already. Such the other woman with two children. Such the other woman with two children. Such the other woman with two children. They're all left there to die on the They're all left there to die on the They're all left there to die on the step. When the winter comes, they will step. When the winter comes, they will step. When the winter comes, they will surely all die. surely all die. surely all die. How do they make it through the winter? How do they make it through the winter? How do they make it through the winter? >> Mother Erlun, in the words of the secret >> Mother Erlun, in the words of the secret >> Mother Erlun, in the words of the secret history, she pulled her hat down over history, she pulled her hat down over history, she pulled her hat down over her head. She took her black stick and her head. She took her black stick and her head. She took her black stick and she ran up and down the banks of the she ran up and down the banks of the she ran up and down the banks of the river, digging out roots to feed the river, digging out roots to feed the river, digging out roots to feed the gullet of her brood. gullet of her brood. gullet of her brood. She fed them through the winter. She She fed them through the winter. She She fed them through the winter. She found foods, digging up whatever she found foods, digging up whatever she found foods, digging up whatever she could, finding whatever she could, could, finding whatever she could, could, finding whatever she could, everything she could. And even at his everything she could. And even at his everything she could. And even at his young age, Tamutin was already beginning young age, Tamutin was already beginning young age, Tamutin was already beginning to go out to collect things to he could to go out to collect things to he could to go out to collect things to he could get fish. He could do a few tasks to get fish. He could do a few tasks to get fish. He could do a few tasks to help feed the family. It was an help feed the family. It was an help feed the family. It was an extremely awful struggle at this point, extremely awful struggle at this point, extremely awful struggle at this point, but she saved every one of the children. but she saved every one of the children. but she saved every one of the children. So Timin's early years were marked by So Timin's early years were marked by So Timin's early years were marked by loneliness, abandonment and uh struggle.

loneliness, abandonment and uh struggle. loneliness, abandonment and uh struggle. >> Yes. Even after this uh he was kidnapped >> Yes. Even after this uh he was kidnapped >> Yes. Even after this uh he was kidnapped at one point by taichiude people. He was at one point by taichiude people. He was at one point by taichiude people. He was kidnapped kidnapped kidnapped and we would say I think the correct and we would say I think the correct and we would say I think the correct word reinsslaved. They put him into a word reinsslaved. They put him into a word reinsslaved. They put him into a kank a yolk like a like a ox would wear. kank a yolk like a like a ox would wear. kank a yolk like a like a ox would wear. And so his two arms are in it and his And so his two arms are in it and his And so his two arms are in it and his head is in it and he's trapped in this head is in it and he's trapped in this head is in it and he's trapped in this thing. And every night he would be taken thing. And every night he would be taken thing. And every night he would be taken to a different gear to be guarded by to a different gear to be guarded by to a different gear to be guarded by that family. And one night there was a that family. And one night there was a that family. And one night there was a little celebration. So most of the little celebration. So most of the little celebration. So most of the people are drinking. And he's left with people are drinking. And he's left with people are drinking. And he's left with a boy who's not very smart. a boy who's not very smart. a boy who's not very smart. And Tamujin managed to take the canank, And Tamujin managed to take the canank, And Tamujin managed to take the canank, the wooden yolk that he's trapped in, the wooden yolk that he's trapped in, the wooden yolk that he's trapped in, and use it as a weapon by turning it and use it as a weapon by turning it and use it as a weapon by turning it around very quickly and hitting the boy around very quickly and hitting the boy around very quickly and hitting the boy in the head, knocking him out. That was in the head, knocking him out. That was in the head, knocking him out. That was one of the first lessons for the one of the first lessons for the one of the first lessons for the Mongols, that uh anything that moves is Mongols, that uh anything that moves is Mongols, that uh anything that moves is a weapon. This is going to go on for a weapon. This is going to go on for a weapon. This is going to go on for generations. Very important for the generations. Very important for the generations. Very important for the Mongols. If it moves, it's a weapon. He Mongols. If it moves, it's a weapon. He Mongols. If it moves, it's a weapon. He did that. He raced off in the night and did that. He raced off in the night and did that. He raced off in the night and he jumped into the river to hide. He's he jumped into the river to hide. He's he jumped into the river to hide. He's still got a can on him. He's still still got a can on him. He's still still got a can on him. He's still trapped under there. The people are trapped under there. The people are trapped under there. The people are looking for him. They come out and looking for him. They come out and looking for him. They come out and they're up and down the river and he's they're up and down the river and he's they're up and down the river and he's hiding underneath the water for the most hiding underneath the water for the most hiding underneath the water for the most part, trying to breathe as best he can, part, trying to breathe as best he can, part, trying to breathe as best he can, but it's dark and it protects him a but it's dark and it protects him a but it's dark and it protects him a little bit. They give up and they say, little bit. They give up and they say, little bit. They give up and they say, "Okay, we'll come back tomorrow." He "Okay, we'll come back tomorrow." He "Okay, we'll come back tomorrow." He can't possibly escape. But

can't possibly escape. But can't possibly escape. But the next day he knew one family that he the next day he knew one family that he the next day he knew one family that he thought he could go to and uh he was thought he could go to and uh he was thought he could go to and uh he was right. He went to that family and at right. He went to that family and at right. He went to that family and at great risk to themselves. They in fact great risk to themselves. They in fact great risk to themselves. They in fact were a captive family of the Taiote and were a captive family of the Taiote and were a captive family of the Taiote and at great risk to themselves they uh at great risk to themselves they uh at great risk to themselves they uh managed to saw off the can and then burn managed to saw off the can and then burn managed to saw off the can and then burn it in their fire and they gave him food it in their fire and they gave him food it in their fire and they gave him food to escape and then he had to go find his to escape and then he had to go find his to escape and then he had to go find his family again. family again. family again. So this is the kind of life So this is the kind of life So this is the kind of life that this boy Tim Tamujin had. that this boy Tim Tamujin had. that this boy Tim Tamujin had. >> So he just to be clear his the neck is >> So he just to be clear his the neck is >> So he just to be clear his the neck is trapped and the hands are trapped. trapped and the hands are trapped. trapped and the hands are trapped. >> We think that's how it is. We just have >> We think that's how it is. We just have >> We think that's how it is. We just have the word. They don't say the head and the word. They don't say the head and the word. They don't say the head and the hands. We know that his body is the hands. We know that his body is the hands. We know that his body is trapped in it. But from all evidence we trapped in it. But from all evidence we trapped in it. But from all evidence we have, it's the hands and the head. have, it's the hands and the head. have, it's the hands and the head. >> And he's running around deeply alone >> And he's running around deeply alone >> And he's running around deeply alone with this thing. with this thing. with this thing. >> Yes. Yes. >> Yes. Yes. >> Yes. Yes. and then he has to go out and find and then he has to go out and find and then he has to go out and find wherever his family is. So this in part wherever his family is. So this in part wherever his family is. So this in part was the foundation of his breaking with was the foundation of his breaking with was the foundation of his breaking with Mongol tradition that kinship is Mongol tradition that kinship is Mongol tradition that kinship is >> yes >> yes >> yes >> the most important thing above all else >> the most important thing above all else >> the most important thing above all else because here is his life story where because here is his life story where because here is his life story where he's abandoned over and over and over he's abandoned over and over and over he's abandoned over and over and over >> by his father's own brothers see the men >> by his father's own brothers see the men >> by his father's own brothers see the men who kidnapped her they had an obligation who kidnapped her they had an obligation who kidnapped her they had an obligation under Mongol law and custom to marry her under Mongol law and custom to marry her under Mongol law and custom to marry her when her husband died. They did not.

when her husband died. They did not. when her husband died. They did not. they should take care of her and her they should take care of her and her they should take care of her and her children because her children are the children because her children are the children because her children are the children of their brother. They count as children of their brother. They count as children of their brother. They count as the sons of the clan or they should but the sons of the clan or they should but the sons of the clan or they should but no they had all deserted all betrayed no they had all deserted all betrayed no they had all deserted all betrayed him. He learned very early on that you him. He learned very early on that you him. He learned very early on that you cannot trust family. cannot trust family. cannot trust family. >> You mentioned that uh Jenis Khan's >> You mentioned that uh Jenis Khan's >> You mentioned that uh Jenis Khan's childhood childhood childhood uh Timin was marked by extreme tribal uh Timin was marked by extreme tribal uh Timin was marked by extreme tribal violence. Can you describe sort of the violence. Can you describe sort of the violence. Can you describe sort of the state of affairs in the step? How much state of affairs in the step? How much state of affairs in the step? How much violence is there? How much kidnapping violence is there? How much kidnapping violence is there? How much kidnapping is there? is there? is there? >> The story of Timujin is not a unique >> The story of Timujin is not a unique >> The story of Timujin is not a unique story for that time. Now, as an as an story for that time. Now, as an as an story for that time. Now, as an as an isolated family of outcasts, of course, isolated family of outcasts, of course, isolated family of outcasts, of course, he's not participating in the various he's not participating in the various he's not participating in the various feuds and the raids of the people around feuds and the raids of the people around feuds and the raids of the people around them, but they are constantly raiding in them, but they are constantly raiding in them, but they are constantly raiding in the winter. and for women and for horses the winter. and for women and for horses the winter. and for women and for horses and for any kind of valuables that they and for any kind of valuables that they and for any kind of valuables that they can find. It's almost like their way of can find. It's almost like their way of can find. It's almost like their way of getting trade goods from China that one getting trade goods from China that one getting trade goods from China that one group raids the other in order to find group raids the other in order to find group raids the other in order to find out whatever they have for textiles or out whatever they have for textiles or out whatever they have for textiles or for metal. Mongols produce nothing. They for metal. Mongols produce nothing. They for metal. Mongols produce nothing. They they could produce felt to make their they could produce felt to make their they could produce felt to make their tents, but they were not craftsmen. And tents, but they were not craftsmen. And tents, but they were not craftsmen. And so they had to get these items from so they had to get these items from so they had to get these items from somewhere and it was through raiding.

somewhere and it was through raiding. somewhere and it was through raiding. And so even in the genealogy of Timuin, And so even in the genealogy of Timuin, And so even in the genealogy of Timuin, you see going back generation after you see going back generation after you see going back generation after generation of women having been generation of women having been generation of women having been kidnapped, children born who are not kidnapped, children born who are not kidnapped, children born who are not necessarily the father's child, and it's necessarily the father's child, and it's necessarily the father's child, and it's unclear who the father was. And all of unclear who the father was. And all of unclear who the father was. And all of these issues go back for a long time. these issues go back for a long time. these issues go back for a long time. Later, Changan will realize once he Later, Changan will realize once he Later, Changan will realize once he becomes Ching Han, he will realize that becomes Ching Han, he will realize that becomes Ching Han, he will realize that the true source of most of the feuding the true source of most of the feuding the true source of most of the feuding on the step is over women. And later he on the step is over women. And later he on the step is over women. And later he will outlaw the kidnapping of women and will outlaw the kidnapping of women and will outlaw the kidnapping of women and the sale of women in part not only the sale of women in part not only the sale of women in part not only because of what had happened to his because of what had happened to his because of what had happened to his mother mother mother but what happened to him next in his but what happened to him next in his but what happened to him next in his life. And this is one of the things you life. And this is one of the things you life. And this is one of the things you talk about this in some ways the love talk about this in some ways the love talk about this in some ways the love story story story with his wife was her kidnapping was the with his wife was her kidnapping was the with his wife was her kidnapping was the defining. If you could point to one defining. If you could point to one defining. If you could point to one place where Jenis Khan the conqueror was place where Jenis Khan the conqueror was place where Jenis Khan the conqueror was created, it's that point, his wife being created, it's that point, his wife being created, it's that point, his wife being kidnapped. Can you can you describe kidnapped. Can you can you describe kidnapped. Can you can you describe first of all his love for this woman and first of all his love for this woman and first of all his love for this woman and what that means and what the kidnapping what that means and what the kidnapping what that means and what the kidnapping of her meant?

of her meant? of her meant? >> At age 16, >> At age 16, >> At age 16, Bertha, the girl he had met when he was Bertha, the girl he had met when he was Bertha, the girl he had met when he was 8 years old and she was nine, she's now 8 years old and she was nine, she's now 8 years old and she was nine, she's now 17. and she and her mother come. It It It's hard to even imagine what it was It's hard to even imagine what it was It's hard to even imagine what it was like for this 16-year-old boy who has like for this 16-year-old boy who has like for this 16-year-old boy who has suffered these indignities of life in suffered these indignities of life in suffered these indignities of life in every way that you can imagine. And every way that you can imagine. And every way that you can imagine. And suddenly here is the love of his life suddenly here is the love of his life suddenly here is the love of his life who's going to be living with him, who's going to be living with him, who's going to be living with him, making him happy. He has somebody who making him happy. He has somebody who making him happy. He has somebody who loves him. It's not just his mother loves him. It's not just his mother loves him. It's not just his mother running around getting food and trying running around getting food and trying running around getting food and trying to feed the five children and plus the to feed the five children and plus the to feed the five children and plus the the other uh wife and her two children. the other uh wife and her two children. the other uh wife and her two children. No, he has somebody who loves him. And No, he has somebody who loves him. And No, he has somebody who loves him. And it's all the excitement that you can it's all the excitement that you can it's all the excitement that you can imagine with the fire in the eyes and imagine with the fire in the eyes and imagine with the fire in the eyes and the excitement and then the excitement and then the excitement and then it only lasts a few months. it only lasts a few months. it only lasts a few months. And so there they are and there's a lady And so there they are and there's a lady And so there they are and there's a lady visiting them. We don't know exactly who visiting them. We don't know exactly who visiting them. We don't know exactly who she is, but just they called her she is, but just they called her she is, but just they called her grandmother Kawakin. Granny Kauan is grandmother Kawakin. Granny Kauan is grandmother Kawakin. Granny Kauan is there and Granny Kauin is sleeping of there and Granny Kauin is sleeping of there and Granny Kauin is sleeping of course on the floor of the gear the tent course on the floor of the gear the tent course on the floor of the gear the tent and early in the morning she feels the and early in the morning she feels the and early in the morning she feels the vibrations in the earth vibrations in the earth vibrations in the earth and she knows that horsemen are coming.

and she knows that horsemen are coming. and she knows that horsemen are coming. She rouses the family and mother Erlloon She rouses the family and mother Erlloon She rouses the family and mother Erlloon is in charge. Mother Erlloon is still in is in charge. Mother Erlloon is still in is in charge. Mother Erlloon is still in charge even though Timujin is now charge even though Timujin is now charge even though Timujin is now married. She puts all of her children on married. She puts all of her children on married. She puts all of her children on a horse and she takes the baby girl a horse and she takes the baby girl a horse and she takes the baby girl Tamulin in her own lap Tamulin in her own lap Tamulin in her own lap and she has one extra horse. and she has one extra horse. and she has one extra horse. But she won't take Bursta because she But she won't take Bursta because she But she won't take Bursta because she knows she doesn't know who the men are. knows she doesn't know who the men are. knows she doesn't know who the men are. She has no idea. But they're coming. She has no idea. But they're coming. She has no idea. But they're coming. They're coming in the dark. They're They're coming in the dark. They're They're coming in the dark. They're coming for a woman. They know there's a coming for a woman. They know there's a coming for a woman. They know there's a girl there. this family of outcasts has girl there. this family of outcasts has girl there. this family of outcasts has acquired a wife and they know that acquired a wife and they know that acquired a wife and they know that they're coming for that. And so she they're coming for that. And so she they're coming for that. And so she leaves Sigo, the other wife. She leaves leaves Sigo, the other wife. She leaves leaves Sigo, the other wife. She leaves this old lady, Granny Kolakin, who this old lady, Granny Kolakin, who this old lady, Granny Kolakin, who actually has her own cart. And she actually has her own cart. And she actually has her own cart. And she leaves Bursta. They pile into Granny's leaves Bursta. They pile into Granny's leaves Bursta. They pile into Granny's cart, and it's only an ox to pull it, so cart, and it's only an ox to pull it, so cart, and it's only an ox to pull it, so they don't get too far before the they don't get too far before the they don't get too far before the attackers get there. But Mother Erlin is attackers get there. But Mother Erlin is attackers get there. But Mother Erlin is right. She's able to get her children right. She's able to get her children right. She's able to get her children off to the mountain and to Bharat Haldun off to the mountain and to Bharat Haldun off to the mountain and to Bharat Haldun to the mountain side away from them to the mountain side away from them to the mountain side away from them because the men are so focused on this because the men are so focused on this because the men are so focused on this cart and finding out how many women are cart and finding out how many women are cart and finding out how many women are in there and who they are and all. So in there and who they are and all. So in there and who they are and all. So mother eroon mother eroon mother eroon saved her family saved her family saved her family but at a cost suddenly but at a cost suddenly but at a cost suddenly Timbuin realizes Timbuin realizes Timbuin realizes he has obeyed his mother but he's lost he has obeyed his mother but he's lost he has obeyed his mother but he's lost the most important thing in his life and

the most important thing in his life and the most important thing in his life and I do think this is the defining moment I do think this is the defining moment I do think this is the defining moment of his life the story began back when of his life the story began back when of his life the story began back when his mother was kidnapped but now the his mother was kidnapped but now the his mother was kidnapped but now the kidnapping of his wife I think it's the kidnapping of his wife I think it's the kidnapping of his wife I think it's the def what will he do what should he do? def what will he do what should he do? def what will he do what should he do? What can he do? Is he going to just What can he do? Is he going to just What can he do? Is he going to just resign himself to it? resign himself to it? resign himself to it? Is he going to go out look for another Is he going to go out look for another Is he going to go out look for another wife? wife? wife? And he decides that life is not worth And he decides that life is not worth And he decides that life is not worth living without Bura. He has found living without Bura. He has found living without Bura. He has found something good in this life. And if he something good in this life. And if he something good in this life. And if he has to die trying to get her back, he has to die trying to get her back, he has to die trying to get her back, he will die trying to get her back. will die trying to get her back. will die trying to get her back. >> And this is the early steps of the >> And this is the early steps of the >> And this is the early steps of the military genius. military genius. military genius. born because in order to get her back born because in order to get her back born because in order to get her back requires requires requires an actual organization of troops. an actual organization of troops. an actual organization of troops. >> He needs allies. >> He needs allies. >> He needs allies. >> Allies. >> Allies. >> Allies. >> He goes to a man who ruled a Karat >> He goes to a man who ruled a Karat >> He goes to a man who ruled a Karat people in central Mongolia kind of on people in central Mongolia kind of on people in central Mongolia kind of on the river about where the capital Ulamat the river about where the capital Ulamat the river about where the capital Ulamat is today. He goes there because that Van is today. He goes there because that Van is today. He goes there because that Van Han is the name or Toalhan. He goes Han is the name or Toalhan. He goes Han is the name or Toalhan. He goes there because Wanghan had uh been the there because Wanghan had uh been the there because Wanghan had uh been the lord over his father at one point and lord over his father at one point and lord over his father at one point and his father had gone on raids for him and his father had gone on raids for him and his father had gone on raids for him and so he went there and actually he took a so he went there and actually he took a so he went there and actually he took a gift that's because Basha's mother had gift that's because Basha's mother had gift that's because Basha's mother had brought a sable coat as a gift for brought a sable coat as a gift for brought a sable coat as a gift for mother Erlun at that time of the mother Erlun at that time of the mother Erlun at that time of the marriage. So he took the coat and he marriage. So he took the coat and he marriage. So he took the coat and he took it and he gave it as a gift to

took it and he gave it as a gift to took it and he gave it as a gift to Vanghan and asked for his help and Van Vanghan and asked for his help and Van Vanghan and asked for his help and Van Han said yes and he said I will send Han said yes and he said I will send Han said yes and he said I will send some troops but we need more and you some troops but we need more and you some troops but we need more and you need to ask Jamoka Jam Jamaka you need need to ask Jamoka Jam Jamaka you need need to ask Jamoka Jam Jamaka you need to ask him to come also. He said I will to ask him to come also. He said I will to ask him to come also. He said I will send a message to him to get troops. you send a message to him to get troops. you send a message to him to get troops. you have to tell the story of Jamaka because have to tell the story of Jamaka because have to tell the story of Jamaka because uh the the story of Jenghis Khan is one uh the the story of Jenghis Khan is one uh the the story of Jenghis Khan is one of people abandoning him being disloyal of people abandoning him being disloyal of people abandoning him being disloyal and here is a person who's not of his and here is a person who's not of his and here is a person who's not of his kin but uh becomes his in a way brother kin but uh becomes his in a way brother kin but uh becomes his in a way brother uh in a way loyal and as you've uh in a way loyal and as you've uh in a way loyal and as you've described he's both the best thing to described he's both the best thing to described he's both the best thing to happened to Jenghis Khan and one of the happened to Jenghis Khan and one of the happened to Jenghis Khan and one of the biggest challenges in in in the later biggest challenges in in in the later biggest challenges in in in the later years to Jangaskhan. So who was Jamaka? years to Jangaskhan. So who was Jamaka? years to Jangaskhan. So who was Jamaka? >> Jamaka was a boy about the same age as >> Jamaka was a boy about the same age as >> Jamaka was a boy about the same age as as Timujin and his family had winter as Timujin and his family had winter as Timujin and his family had winter camp close to where Mother Erlun was camp close to where Mother Erlun was camp close to where Mother Erlun was living with her children. And so the two living with her children. And so the two living with her children. And so the two boys met during the winter time. In boys met during the winter time. In boys met during the winter time. In fact, they both claimed descent from the fact, they both claimed descent from the fact, they both claimed descent from the same uh woman about four generations same uh woman about four generations same uh woman about four generations earlier or five, it's a little unclear.

earlier or five, it's a little unclear. earlier or five, it's a little unclear. She was urihongai woman who herself was She was urihongai woman who herself was She was urihongai woman who herself was kidnapped and actually Jamaka was the kidnapped and actually Jamaka was the kidnapped and actually Jamaka was the descendant of her from the fact that she descendant of her from the fact that she descendant of her from the fact that she was pregnant at the moment of kidnapping was pregnant at the moment of kidnapping was pregnant at the moment of kidnapping and then Tamujin is descended from her and then Tamujin is descended from her and then Tamujin is descended from her through the new kidnapper Banchar his through the new kidnapper Banchar his through the new kidnapper Banchar his her ancestor. So they're both through her ancestor. So they're both through her ancestor. So they're both through the as the Mongols would say from the the as the Mongols would say from the the as the Mongols would say from the same womb. They come from the same same womb. They come from the same same womb. They come from the same historic historic historic uh origin. However, their lives were uh origin. However, their lives were uh origin. However, their lives were similar in that both lost their fathers similar in that both lost their fathers similar in that both lost their fathers very early. But Jamaka also lost a very early. But Jamaka also lost a very early. But Jamaka also lost a mother. So he grew up in the household mother. So he grew up in the household mother. So he grew up in the household of his grandfather. He had no siblings. of his grandfather. He had no siblings. of his grandfather. He had no siblings. Uh unlike Tamuzin with whole household Uh unlike Tamuzin with whole household Uh unlike Tamuzin with whole household of siblings, he grew up with his of siblings, he grew up with his of siblings, he grew up with his grandfather and his grandfather had grandfather and his grandfather had grandfather and his grandfather had several wives. So he grew up with a several wives. So he grew up with a several wives. So he grew up with a bunch of old women which later he said bunch of old women which later he said bunch of old women which later he said he thought was uh an influence on his he thought was uh an influence on his he thought was uh an influence on his life. But the two boys meet. So they life. But the two boys meet. So they life. But the two boys meet. So they come from different backgrounds and come from different backgrounds and come from different backgrounds and Jamoka is not as deprived by any means Jamoka is not as deprived by any means Jamoka is not as deprived by any means as the life of Tamuzin but he has a as the life of Tamuzin but he has a as the life of Tamuzin but he has a certain emotional deprivation I think certain emotional deprivation I think certain emotional deprivation I think having not had mother father siblings having not had mother father siblings having not had mother father siblings and he lives with these old old people and he lives with these old old people and he lives with these old old people the two boys meet they become good the two boys meet they become good the two boys meet they become good friends playing on the ice and so friends playing on the ice and so friends playing on the ice and so they're playing on the ice and then very they're playing on the ice and then very they're playing on the ice and then very early on I think when they're about 10 early on I think when they're about 10 early on I think when they're about 10 or 11 years old they decide to make a or 11 years old they decide to make a or 11 years old they decide to make a pact it's called being coming and is pact it's called being coming and is pact it's called being coming and is more than a friend. A friend is like ner more than a friend. A friend is like ner more than a friend. A friend is like ner in the language and there are several in the language and there are several in the language and there are several different types of friendship but and is

different types of friendship but and is different types of friendship but and is a friendship that's beyond a friendship. a friendship that's beyond a friendship. a friendship that's beyond a friendship. It's something for life and they swore It's something for life and they swore It's something for life and they swore that they would be there forever to that they would be there forever to that they would be there forever to protect each other to help each other in protect each other to help each other in protect each other to help each other in every moment. And they exchanged every moment. And they exchanged every moment. And they exchanged knucklebones. So each one of them had knucklebones. So each one of them had knucklebones. So each one of them had the knucklebone of a a robuck, a deer. the knucklebone of a a robuck, a deer. the knucklebone of a a robuck, a deer. uh knucklebones are used in these games uh knucklebones are used in these games uh knucklebones are used in these games that they play, but it's also used to that they play, but it's also used to that they play, but it's also used to forecast the future. You can roll them forecast the future. You can roll them forecast the future. You can roll them around and and all. And it's very around and and all. And it's very around and and all. And it's very strange on the ice. I will say in the strange on the ice. I will say in the strange on the ice. I will say in the winter time in Mongolia, it can be up to winter time in Mongolia, it can be up to winter time in Mongolia, it can be up to 50° below zero. And it doesn't really 50° below zero. And it doesn't really 50° below zero. And it doesn't really matter at that point whether it's either matter at that point whether it's either matter at that point whether it's either Celsius or Fahrenheit or what it is, but Celsius or Fahrenheit or what it is, but Celsius or Fahrenheit or what it is, but you slide something across the ice and you slide something across the ice and you slide something across the ice and it's just absolutely smooth like silk it's just absolutely smooth like silk it's just absolutely smooth like silk and it goes on for a long way. And if and it goes on for a long way. And if and it goes on for a long way. And if you put your ear down to the ice, you you put your ear down to the ice, you you put your ear down to the ice, you hear this celestial sound that is unlike hear this celestial sound that is unlike hear this celestial sound that is unlike any sound on the earth. It's just like any sound on the earth. It's just like any sound on the earth. It's just like the angels are singing under the ice. So the angels are singing under the ice. So the angels are singing under the ice. So once they've sworn in this relationship once they've sworn in this relationship once they've sworn in this relationship of then a couple years later they swear of then a couple years later they swear of then a couple years later they swear it again but this time they're slightly it again but this time they're slightly it again but this time they're slightly older boys and they have bows and arrows older boys and they have bows and arrows older boys and they have bows and arrows and so they exchange arrows with each and so they exchange arrows with each and so they exchange arrows with each other. In fact, the the text is very other. In fact, the the text is very other. In fact, the the text is very specific that Jamaka took the horn, cut specific that Jamaka took the horn, cut specific that Jamaka took the horn, cut it off of a two-year-old calf, it off of a two-year-old calf, it off of a two-year-old calf, and uh he whittleled it down, and then and uh he whittleled it down, and then and uh he whittleled it down, and then he drilled a hole into it in order to he drilled a hole into it in order to he drilled a hole into it in order to make a whistling arrow, which is used uh make a whistling arrow, which is used uh make a whistling arrow, which is used uh for several purposes among the Mongols.

for several purposes among the Mongols. for several purposes among the Mongols. It's used for signals for one thing from It's used for signals for one thing from It's used for signals for one thing from one person to another. But also when one person to another. But also when one person to another. But also when you're hunting, if you want to move the you're hunting, if you want to move the you're hunting, if you want to move the animal in a certain direction, you send animal in a certain direction, you send animal in a certain direction, you send a whistling arrow in the opposite a whistling arrow in the opposite a whistling arrow in the opposite direction to make the animal move. So it direction to make the animal move. So it direction to make the animal move. So it had a lot of uses. So the boys had had a lot of uses. So the boys had had a lot of uses. So the boys had exchanged robot knuckles. This time they exchanged robot knuckles. This time they exchanged robot knuckles. This time they exchang. And so they had been close exchang. And so they had been close exchang. And so they had been close friends. And Van Han said, "Okay, Jamoka friends. And Van Han said, "Okay, Jamoka friends. And Van Han said, "Okay, Jamoka should raise some troops and go with should raise some troops and go with should raise some troops and go with you." And he did. So the three set out you." And he did. So the three set out you." And he did. So the three set out some troops from Vanghan. He himself did some troops from Vanghan. He himself did some troops from Vanghan. He himself did not go. He was too old. But he sent some not go. He was too old. But he sent some not go. He was too old. But he sent some troops and then Jamoka and his troops troops and then Jamoka and his troops troops and then Jamoka and his troops and then basically just Tamujin and his and then basically just Tamujin and his and then basically just Tamujin and his family. He just had his brothers. That's family. He just had his brothers. That's family. He just had his brothers. That's all. They set off to find the Murket all. They set off to find the Murket all. They set off to find the Murket people up the Selen River which flows people up the Selen River which flows people up the Selen River which flows into Siberia and on into Lake Ball. They into Siberia and on into Lake Ball. They into Siberia and on into Lake Ball. They had to go through some extremely rough had to go through some extremely rough had to go through some extremely rough territory. territory. territory. And you see in this episode though, And you see in this episode though, And you see in this episode though, Jamaka Jamaka Jamaka is already a little bit fierce without is already a little bit fierce without is already a little bit fierce without necessarily thinking it through necessarily thinking it through necessarily thinking it through carefully. Uh he s he gives this long carefully. Uh he s he gives this long carefully. Uh he s he gives this long speech about all the things they're speech about all the things they're speech about all the things they're going to do to the merket people. We're going to do to the merket people. We're going to do to the merket people. We're going to jump through the the tono the going to jump through the the tono the going to jump through the the tono the the smoke hole in the top of the gear.

the smoke hole in the top of the gear. the smoke hole in the top of the gear. We're going to jump in there and we're We're going to jump in there and we're We're going to jump in there and we're going to kill them all. We're going to going to kill them all. We're going to going to kill them all. We're going to kill the men and the women and the kill the men and the women and the kill the men and the women and the children. we will destroy these people children. we will destroy these people children. we will destroy these people forever. He has a extremely militant forever. He has a extremely militant forever. He has a extremely militant rhetoric at least. And he's also rather rhetoric at least. And he's also rather rhetoric at least. And he's also rather critical of the elder people. Van Han's critical of the elder people. Van Han's critical of the elder people. Van Han's people came late and he gave them this people came late and he gave them this people came late and he gave them this long lecture about we are Mongols and if long lecture about we are Mongols and if long lecture about we are Mongols and if we give our word, our word is our we give our word, our word is our we give our word, our word is our promise forever and rain or sleet or promise forever and rain or sleet or promise forever and rain or sleet or snow, it doesn't matter. We be there on snow, it doesn't matter. We be there on snow, it doesn't matter. We be there on time. And then it so he's dressing down time. And then it so he's dressing down time. And then it so he's dressing down his superiors. is very aggressive but his superiors. is very aggressive but his superiors. is very aggressive but he's very helpful. So these troops they he's very helpful. So these troops they he's very helpful. So these troops they move in on the merket camp. They also move in on the merket camp. They also move in on the merket camp. They also come in at night and so the there's a come in at night and so the there's a come in at night and so the there's a small amount of warning because some men small amount of warning because some men small amount of warning because some men are out hunting sables the merket men are out hunting sables the merket men are out hunting sables the merket men and they race back to the camp and they and they race back to the camp and they and they race back to the camp and they tell the people and the people are are tell the people and the people are are tell the people and the people are are getting ready to get out as fast as getting ready to get out as fast as getting ready to get out as fast as possible. So Bura has no idea who's possible. So Bura has no idea who's possible. So Bura has no idea who's coming. She doesn't want to be kidnapped coming. She doesn't want to be kidnapped coming. She doesn't want to be kidnapped again. It's just somebody. So she and uh again. It's just somebody. So she and uh again. It's just somebody. So she and uh the grandmother go auction again and and the grandmother go auction again and and the grandmother go auction again and and so they're loaded into a cart to go so they're loaded into a cart to go so they're loaded into a cart to go away. So Timin comes in and there's a away. So Timin comes in and there's a away. So Timin comes in and there's a full moon that night so they could see full moon that night so they could see full moon that night so they could see what they're doing. And he's really what they're doing. And he's really what they're doing. And he's really searching for her. He's not paying too searching for her. He's not paying too searching for her. He's not paying too much attention to the battle. And he's much attention to the battle. And he's much attention to the battle. And he's calling for her. And he she hears his calling for her. And he she hears his calling for her. And he she hears his voice. She knows who it is. She jumps

voice. She knows who it is. She jumps voice. She knows who it is. She jumps off the cart and she runs to him and off the cart and she runs to him and off the cart and she runs to him and they reunited and he grabs her, embraces they reunited and he grabs her, embraces they reunited and he grabs her, embraces her and then he said, "This is the goal. her and then he said, "This is the goal. her and then he said, "This is the goal. This is why we are here. We don't need This is why we are here. We don't need This is why we are here. We don't need anything else." He was very clear about anything else." He was very clear about anything else." He was very clear about that. that. that. >> And that was his first >> And that was his first >> And that was his first full-on military engagement. full-on military engagement. full-on military engagement. >> Yes. Aside from the things Yes. His >> Yes. Aside from the things Yes. His >> Yes. Aside from the things Yes. His first full-on military engagement. Now first full-on military engagement. Now first full-on military engagement. Now um along the way in addition to escaping um along the way in addition to escaping um along the way in addition to escaping all these horrors he had killed his all these horrors he had killed his all these horrors he had killed his older half brother older half brother older half brother Beh Beh Beh >> and that too was a deeply formative >> and that too was a deeply formative >> and that too was a deeply formative experience. So what what was that about? experience. So what what was that about? experience. So what what was that about? Can you explain in in Mongol society the Can you explain in in Mongol society the Can you explain in in Mongol society the role of the the older brother and the role of the the older brother and the role of the the older brother and the power struggle there and you know not to power struggle there and you know not to power struggle there and you know not to moralize but there's also moralize but there's also moralize but there's also >> uh you know the the ethical foundation >> uh you know the the ethical foundation >> uh you know the the ethical foundation behind the murder behind the murder behind the murder >> the killing of Becker that's one of the >> the killing of Becker that's one of the >> the killing of Becker that's one of the things that's totally unknown outside of things that's totally unknown outside of things that's totally unknown outside of the secret history of the Mongols none the secret history of the Mongols none the secret history of the Mongols none of the Persian chronicles none of the of the Persian chronicles none of the of the Persian chronicles none of the Chinese chronicles none of them knew Chinese chronicles none of them knew Chinese chronicles none of them knew about this until the secret history was about this until the secret history was about this until the secret history was uh deciphered and translated. But Bectar uh deciphered and translated. But Bectar uh deciphered and translated. But Bectar was the older child of Sigle and Esant was the older child of Sigle and Esant was the older child of Sigle and Esant the older brother has complete authority the older brother has complete authority the older brother has complete authority over the younger siblings in Mongolian over the younger siblings in Mongolian over the younger siblings in Mongolian society. They have to refer to him with society. They have to refer to him with society. They have to refer to him with a special pronoun all the time ta and he a special pronoun all the time ta and he a special pronoun all the time ta and he refers to them as chi. It's like a

refers to them as chi. It's like a refers to them as chi. It's like a formality and and his word goes he is formality and and his word goes he is formality and and his word goes he is the father in the absence of the father. the father in the absence of the father. the father in the absence of the father. But also it's quite common that if a man But also it's quite common that if a man But also it's quite common that if a man dies and his brothers he has no brothers dies and his brothers he has no brothers dies and his brothers he has no brothers or his brothers do not marry his widow or his brothers do not marry his widow or his brothers do not marry his widow then if he has a son by another wife she then if he has a son by another wife she then if he has a son by another wife she will become his wife. So it would have will become his wife. So it would have will become his wife. So it would have been common that Beexter eventually when been common that Beexter eventually when been common that Beexter eventually when he passed through puberty would then he passed through puberty would then he passed through puberty would then perhaps marry Mother Erlun. perhaps marry Mother Erlun. perhaps marry Mother Erlun. Now Now Now I don't know that that happened but I I don't know that that happened but I I don't know that that happened but I think either it did or Timujin was think either it did or Timujin was think either it did or Timujin was trying to prevent it because it was bad trying to prevent it because it was bad trying to prevent it because it was bad enough that he was the older brother but enough that he was the older brother but enough that he was the older brother but he comes the older brother and a he comes the older brother and a he comes the older brother and a stepfather. I think Timojin just stepfather. I think Timojin just stepfather. I think Timojin just couldn't handle that and he was already couldn't handle that and he was already couldn't handle that and he was already bear was ordering him around. So he bear was ordering him around. So he bear was ordering him around. So he would take things like a fish or bird would take things like a fish or bird would take things like a fish or bird that uh Timujin had caught and that's that uh Timujin had caught and that's that uh Timujin had caught and that's perfectly acceptable in the the Mongol perfectly acceptable in the the Mongol perfectly acceptable in the the Mongol hierarchy.

hierarchy. hierarchy. >> So Timujin would catch a fish and Bector >> So Timujin would catch a fish and Bector >> So Timujin would catch a fish and Bector would take the fish. would take the fish. would take the fish. >> Yes. It's only recorded once but perhaps >> Yes. It's only recorded once but perhaps >> Yes. It's only recorded once but perhaps happened several times. happened several times. happened several times. >> So that's an okay thing to do for an >> So that's an okay thing to do for an >> So that's an okay thing to do for an older brother. Just take stuff. Yes, he older brother. Just take stuff. Yes, he older brother. Just take stuff. Yes, he can do anything he wants just about with can do anything he wants just about with can do anything he wants just about with his younger siblings. That's Yeah. And his younger siblings. That's Yeah. And his younger siblings. That's Yeah. And but Timujin is not going to stand for but Timujin is not going to stand for but Timujin is not going to stand for it. So mostly in the record, they kind it. So mostly in the record, they kind it. So mostly in the record, they kind of put the blame on this fish, which I'm of put the blame on this fish, which I'm of put the blame on this fish, which I'm not so sure that's really the blame. And not so sure that's really the blame. And not so sure that's really the blame. And uh the boys had actually taken the uh the boys had actually taken the uh the boys had actually taken the sewing needles from their mother. They sewing needles from their mother. They sewing needles from their mother. They were using them for fishing. And I think were using them for fishing. And I think were using them for fishing. And I think it was more complicated than that. But it was more complicated than that. But it was more complicated than that. But for whatever reason, he and his next for whatever reason, he and his next for whatever reason, he and his next brother, Hasser, decided to kill him, brother, Hasser, decided to kill him, brother, Hasser, decided to kill him, and they did. and they did. and they did. >> Why to you is it more complicated than >> Why to you is it more complicated than >> Why to you is it more complicated than that? It feels to me like stealing of a that? It feels to me like stealing of a that? It feels to me like stealing of a fish is like the final straw. Here he's fish is like the final straw. Here he's fish is like the final straw. Here he's being abused. being abused. being abused. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Over and over and over. And the fish is >> Over and over and over. And the fish is >> Over and over and over. And the fish is a symbol of that.

a symbol of that. a symbol of that. >> And so here he takes matters into his >> And so here he takes matters into his >> And so here he takes matters into his own hands. own hands. own hands. >> I think it is the symbol of that. And it >> I think it is the symbol of that. And it >> I think it is the symbol of that. And it can be the thing that pushes him over. can be the thing that pushes him over. can be the thing that pushes him over. >> Yeah. the edge, but it's all these other >> Yeah. the edge, but it's all these other >> Yeah. the edge, but it's all these other tensions of what's going on with the tensions of what's going on with the tensions of what's going on with the family because they shoot him with family because they shoot him with family because they shoot him with arrows, they kill him, but what happens arrows, they kill him, but what happens arrows, they kill him, but what happens afterwards is also interesting for the afterwards is also interesting for the afterwards is also interesting for the dynamics of what was going on before dynamics of what was going on before dynamics of what was going on before because we hear nothing from Sigo. because we hear nothing from Sigo. because we hear nothing from Sigo. She and her younger son, Belgatai, they She and her younger son, Belgatai, they She and her younger son, Belgatai, they stay with the family. They don't go stay with the family. They don't go stay with the family. They don't go away. But the one who is outraged is away. But the one who is outraged is away. But the one who is outraged is mother Erlun, his mother. She screams mother Erlun, his mother. She screams mother Erlun, his mother. She screams and hollers at him in the longest kind and hollers at him in the longest kind and hollers at him in the longest kind of tirade you can imagine about you will of tirade you can imagine about you will of tirade you can imagine about you will never have anybody in your life except never have anybody in your life except never have anybody in your life except your own shadow and you know you are your own shadow and you know you are your own shadow and you know you are worse than than everything that she worse than than everything that she worse than than everything that she could name they could be worse than she could name they could be worse than she could name they could be worse than she was outraged and went on and on and on was outraged and went on and on and on was outraged and went on and on and on about it. So she was obviously about it. So she was obviously about it. So she was obviously extremely distressed about it. Whereas extremely distressed about it. Whereas extremely distressed about it. Whereas Sigle, the mother of the boy, she may Sigle, the mother of the boy, she may Sigle, the mother of the boy, she may have been distressed, I don't know, but have been distressed, I don't know, but have been distressed, I don't know, but nothing has shown up in the record. So nothing has shown up in the record. So nothing has shown up in the record. So he does have this episode of having he does have this episode of having he does have this episode of having killed off his brother, but I don't killed off his brother, but I don't killed off his brother, but I don't think it was a deeply meaningful I think think it was a deeply meaningful I think think it was a deeply meaningful I think it was important, but I don't think it it was important, but I don't think it it was important, but I don't think it was emotionally deeply meaningful for was emotionally deeply meaningful for was emotionally deeply meaningful for Timujin.

Timujin. Timujin. The brother was gone. The problem was The brother was gone. The problem was The brother was gone. The problem was solved. mother is extremely ticked off solved. mother is extremely ticked off solved. mother is extremely ticked off at him. But at him. But at him. But >> but it does show, in fact, it's >> but it does show, in fact, it's >> but it does show, in fact, it's interesting if it's not a big deal for interesting if it's not a big deal for interesting if it's not a big deal for him. It does show that he's willing to him. It does show that he's willing to him. It does show that he's willing to resort to murder, to take care of a resort to murder, to take care of a resort to murder, to take care of a >> bad situation. >> bad situation. >> bad situation. >> Yes, he is capable of doing anything >> Yes, he is capable of doing anything >> Yes, he is capable of doing anything that needs to be done to resolve what he that needs to be done to resolve what he that needs to be done to resolve what he sees as a problem. Bea was a problem. He sees as a problem. Bea was a problem. He sees as a problem. Bea was a problem. He resolved it. at a very young age. So resolved it. at a very young age. So resolved it. at a very young age. So he'd had that experience behind him. But he'd had that experience behind him. But he'd had that experience behind him. But now his bear's younger brother Belgati now his bear's younger brother Belgati now his bear's younger brother Belgati is on the raid with him and with Jamoka is on the raid with him and with Jamoka is on the raid with him and with Jamoka when they go to Captain Bura back. when they go to Captain Bura back. when they go to Captain Bura back. So uh he has both loyalty and Belgati So uh he has both loyalty and Belgati So uh he has both loyalty and Belgati stays loyal to him his entire life. His stays loyal to him his entire life. His stays loyal to him his entire life. His entire life. Uh it was very interesting. entire life. Uh it was very interesting. entire life. Uh it was very interesting. So ek if we return to bursta is it So ek if we return to bursta is it So ek if we return to bursta is it normal to have such a love story across normal to have such a love story across normal to have such a love story across many years when you're separated and many years when you're separated and many years when you're separated and sort of having that kind of loyalty sort of having that kind of loyalty sort of having that kind of loyalty because it was two-way loyalty from because it was two-way loyalty from because it was two-way loyalty from bersa to to Timigjin and Timigan to bersa to to Timigjin and Timigan to bersa to to Timigjin and Timigan to burst burst burst >> and this is like uh before he was Jenis >> and this is like uh before he was Jenis >> and this is like uh before he was Jenis Khan Khan Khan >> I think as children he was too >> I think as children he was too >> I think as children he was too preoccupied with staying alive and preoccupied with staying alive and preoccupied with staying alive and getting trying to find fish and roots to getting trying to find fish and roots to getting trying to find fish and roots to eat and things like that to really be eat and things like that to really be eat and things like that to really be pining for her all the time. But for

pining for her all the time. But for pining for her all the time. But for whatever reason, she came and it could whatever reason, she came and it could whatever reason, she came and it could be that her family liked him in some way be that her family liked him in some way be that her family liked him in some way or that she remembered him or that she or that she remembered him or that she or that she remembered him or that she had no other suitors because at 17 she had no other suitors because at 17 she had no other suitors because at 17 she should have been married actually. So I should have been married actually. So I should have been married actually. So I I can't explain why, but it was I can't explain why, but it was I can't explain why, but it was certainly a strong love story after the certainly a strong love story after the certainly a strong love story after the fact if not before. I mean th those two fact if not before. I mean th those two fact if not before. I mean th those two were loyal to each other throughout were loyal to each other throughout were loyal to each other throughout their lives. Uh she was I would say the their lives. Uh she was I would say the their lives. Uh she was I would say the most important person to him. Uh after most important person to him. Uh after most important person to him. Uh after that that that >> he went to literal war >> he went to literal war >> he went to literal war to get her back. to get her back. to get her back. >> He risked everything. He was willing to >> He risked everything. He was willing to >> He risked everything. He was willing to die. He was willing to kill. He was die. He was willing to kill. He was die. He was willing to kill. He was willing to die in order to get her back. willing to die in order to get her back. willing to die in order to get her back. And he got her back. And he got her back. And he got her back. And now he's reestablished his And now he's reestablished his And now he's reestablished his relationship with Jamoka. And so they relationship with Jamoka. And so they relationship with Jamoka. And so they decide to stay together and they all go decide to stay together and they all go decide to stay together and they all go off to the Horon Valley off to the Horon Valley off to the Horon Valley and and and she is pregnant.

she is pregnant. she is pregnant. This becomes a huge issue forever. This becomes a huge issue forever. This becomes a huge issue forever. It's one of those things that to this It's one of those things that to this It's one of those things that to this day almost it's an issue. day almost it's an issue. day almost it's an issue. and what happens. and what happens. and what happens. But as he says much later in life when But as he says much later in life when But as he says much later in life when his own sons rebel against him and they his own sons rebel against him and they his own sons rebel against him and they call that first child a murket bastard, call that first child a murket bastard, call that first child a murket bastard, he defends his wife he defends his wife he defends his wife viciously. He to his own sons. He says, viciously. He to his own sons. He says, viciously. He to his own sons. He says, "You were not there. You do not know who "You were not there. You do not know who "You were not there. You do not know who loved who and who did not. You did not loved who and who did not. You did not loved who and who did not. You did not see the sky turning around. You did not see the sky turning around. You did not see the sky turning around. You did not see the stars falling. You did not see see the stars falling. You did not see see the stars falling. You did not see the earth turn over. You don't know what the earth turn over. You don't know what the earth turn over. You don't know what was happening. And if I say he is my was happening. And if I say he is my was happening. And if I say he is my son, he is my son. Who are you to say son, he is my son. Who are you to say son, he is my son. Who are you to say otherwise? You were not there. You come otherwise? You were not there. You come otherwise? You were not there. You come from the same warm womb. And if your from the same warm womb. And if your from the same warm womb. And if your mother could hear your words, her warm mother could hear your words, her warm mother could hear your words, her warm womb womb would turn to cold stone. So womb womb would turn to cold stone. So womb womb would turn to cold stone. So he defended her forever. But he's off he defended her forever. But he's off he defended her forever. But he's off now. We go back to the beginning. She's now. We go back to the beginning. She's now. We go back to the beginning. She's pregnant.

pregnant. pregnant. They're in the Hanukak Valley. and he They're in the Hanukak Valley. and he They're in the Hanukak Valley. and he and Jamak decide to renew their vows of and Jamak decide to renew their vows of and Jamak decide to renew their vows of being under to each other. being under to each other. being under to each other. So this time it's more serious and it uh So this time it's more serious and it uh So this time it's more serious and it uh ceremony in front of the whole uh ceremony in front of the whole uh ceremony in front of the whole uh we can't say tribe. It's not big enough we can't say tribe. It's not big enough we can't say tribe. It's not big enough yet for a tribe but but the whole clan yet for a tribe but but the whole clan yet for a tribe but but the whole clan that's there. And that's there. And that's there. And then Jamaka takes off a gold belt which then Jamaka takes off a gold belt which then Jamaka takes off a gold belt which actually he'd stolen from the market at actually he'd stolen from the market at actually he'd stolen from the market at some point. Where on earth they had a go some point. Where on earth they had a go some point. Where on earth they had a go got a gold belt? I don't know. But he got a gold belt? I don't know. But he got a gold belt? I don't know. But he took off a gold belt and he put it on took off a gold belt and he put it on took off a gold belt and he put it on Tamuin. And then Tamuin gave him a mayor Tamuin. And then Tamuin gave him a mayor Tamuin. And then Tamuin gave him a mayor who had never uh had a fold, had never who had never uh had a fold, had never who had never uh had a fold, had never given birth. And it was unusual mayor given birth. And it was unusual mayor given birth. And it was unusual mayor who had a little growth on the front of who had a little growth on the front of who had a little growth on the front of her head which they called a horn. So it her head which they called a horn. So it her head which they called a horn. So it was a unusual gift and I don't it has was a unusual gift and I don't it has was a unusual gift and I don't it has meaning but I don't know all the meaning but I don't know all the meaning but I don't know all the meanings behind it. You know, it's sort meanings behind it. You know, it's sort meanings behind it. You know, it's sort of odd to me. But uh the golden belt you of odd to me. But uh the golden belt you of odd to me. But uh the golden belt you can kind of sort of think about in can kind of sort of think about in can kind of sort of think about in different ways. But the gold the belt different ways. But the gold the belt different ways. But the gold the belt the belt for the Mongol man is really the belt for the Mongol man is really the belt for the Mongol man is really the sign of manhood.

the sign of manhood. the sign of manhood. And in fact this uh belt a woman was And in fact this uh belt a woman was And in fact this uh belt a woman was often then and even now called person often then and even now called person often then and even now called person without a belt because that's how they without a belt because that's how they without a belt because that's how they were at that time. Today women wear were at that time. Today women wear were at that time. Today women wear belts of course but they still use the belts of course but they still use the belts of course but they still use the word busqu word busqu word busqu with no belt. So it's a very important with no belt. So it's a very important with no belt. So it's a very important symbol of manhood. So he gave that symbol of manhood. So he gave that symbol of manhood. So he gave that tamujin and they celebrated and then the tamujin and they celebrated and then the tamujin and they celebrated and then the words of the secret history they slept words of the secret history they slept words of the secret history they slept apart under the same blanket apart from apart under the same blanket apart from apart under the same blanket apart from the other group and they were happy the other group and they were happy the other group and they were happy together and then when the baby was born together and then when the baby was born together and then when the baby was born Tim Tuja named the baby Tim Tuja named the baby Tim Tuja named the baby which means visitor which means visitor which means visitor and some people say well it's because and some people say well it's because and some people say well it's because the child was really the market child the child was really the market child the child was really the market child other people say know it's because he other people say know it's because he other people say know it's because he was a visitor on the territory of Jamok was a visitor on the territory of Jamok was a visitor on the territory of Jamok at that time and other people can say at that time and other people can say at that time and other people can say well but Jamaka's ancestor who had been well but Jamaka's ancestor who had been well but Jamaka's ancestor who had been born from the kidnapped woman who was born from the kidnapped woman who was born from the kidnapped woman who was pregnant that they had named that uh pregnant that they had named that uh pregnant that they had named that uh Jaredai which meant foreigner so it's Jaredai which meant foreigner so it's Jaredai which meant foreigner so it's kind of like a parallel the visitor the kind of like a parallel the visitor the kind of like a parallel the visitor the foreigner and so Jamoka's clan was took foreigner and so Jamoka's clan was took foreigner and so Jamoka's clan was took the name from him they were called Jaran the name from him they were called Jaran the name from him they were called Jaran Jaran and so there all these things that Jaran and so there all these things that Jaran and so there all these things that sometimes we can't quite understand sometimes we can't quite understand sometimes we can't quite understand because we don't have the total because we don't have the total because we don't have the total mentality of that time and we don't mentality of that time and we don't mentality of that time and we don't we're not there.

we're not there. we're not there. >> But we should say that I mean it's a >> But we should say that I mean it's a >> But we should say that I mean it's a pretty powerful part of this love story pretty powerful part of this love story pretty powerful part of this love story is that he the child is likely not his is that he the child is likely not his is that he the child is likely not his and he accepted that child as his own and he accepted that child as his own and he accepted that child as his own without and defended it as it becomes without and defended it as it becomes without and defended it as it becomes much more important later. much more important later. much more important later. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> As his first >> As his first >> As his first >> uh child. >> uh child. >> uh child. >> Yes. He defends this child through his >> Yes. He defends this child through his >> Yes. He defends this child through his entire life. And um entire life. And um entire life. And um but not long after the birth, but not long after the birth, but not long after the birth, he and Jamoka break apart or really it's he and Jamoka break apart or really it's he and Jamoka break apart or really it's Timujin breaks apart at the urging of uh Timujin breaks apart at the urging of uh Timujin breaks apart at the urging of uh she said he lords it over you too much. she said he lords it over you too much. she said he lords it over you too much. Uh he orders you around too much. You Uh he orders you around too much. You Uh he orders you around too much. You need to be free. We need to break away. need to be free. We need to break away. need to be free. We need to break away. and she urged him and he loved his wife and she urged him and he loved his wife and she urged him and he loved his wife more than anything. I think that in a more than anything. I think that in a more than anything. I think that in a certain way the most important other certain way the most important other certain way the most important other character in his life, adult life would character in his life, adult life would character in his life, adult life would be the and relationship which gets up be the and relationship which gets up be the and relationship which gets up being severely tested in the future being severely tested in the future being severely tested in the future years. But they run away through the years. But they run away through the years. But they run away through the night. They go all night long to escape night. They go all night long to escape night. They go all night long to escape from him. But uh he obviously loved from him. But uh he obviously loved from him. But uh he obviously loved birth the most and took the baby of birth the most and took the baby of birth the most and took the baby of course with him as well.

course with him as well. course with him as well. So here is this breaking point of the So here is this breaking point of the So here is this breaking point of the una. How did that relationship evolve? una. How did that relationship evolve? una. How did that relationship evolve? >> The two of them never claimed to break >> The two of them never claimed to break >> The two of them never claimed to break it. They had just separated. it. They had just separated. it. They had just separated. And now And now And now we have the Banghan, this the most we have the Banghan, this the most we have the Banghan, this the most powerful ruler on the step who's ruling powerful ruler on the step who's ruling powerful ruler on the step who's ruling out of central Mongolia of the Kerat out of central Mongolia of the Kerat out of central Mongolia of the Kerat people. And so Tamaka remains loyal to people. And so Tamaka remains loyal to people. And so Tamaka remains loyal to him, but at first so does Tamujin. him, but at first so does Tamujin. him, but at first so does Tamujin. They're both loyal to him, but they're They're both loyal to him, but they're They're both loyal to him, but they're fighting in different kinds of fighting in different kinds of fighting in different kinds of campaigns, you know. So, for a while, campaigns, you know. So, for a while, campaigns, you know. So, for a while, they're not fighting each other. they're not fighting each other. they're not fighting each other. But eventually, some things happened But eventually, some things happened But eventually, some things happened that separate Tamujin. Timujin was that separate Tamujin. Timujin was that separate Tamujin. Timujin was making all of these great victories for making all of these great victories for making all of these great victories for Van Han. And he was even got the title Van Han. And he was even got the title Van Han. And he was even got the title Vong, which means from from Chinese Vong, which means from from Chinese Vong, which means from from Chinese meaning uh prince or king. uh he meaning uh prince or king. uh he meaning uh prince or king. uh he Avanghan received that from the Jin Avanghan received that from the Jin Avanghan received that from the Jin dynasty because of all of these dynasty because of all of these dynasty because of all of these conquests against the Tatar people. So conquests against the Tatar people. So conquests against the Tatar people. So Timuin was rising up and then he wanted Timuin was rising up and then he wanted Timuin was rising up and then he wanted his son to marry the daughter of Van Han his son to marry the daughter of Van Han his son to marry the daughter of Van Han and Van Han said no and Van Han said no and Van Han said no his own son sing his told the father no his own son sing his told the father no his own son sing his told the father no no no no we don't marry those low people no no no we don't marry those low people no no no we don't marry those low people they're Mongols they're not like us you they're Mongols they're not like us you they're Mongols they're not like us you know we are carry out people they we're know we are carry out people they we're know we are carry out people they we're not going to marry them and so then not going to marry them and so then not going to marry them and so then now war you could say breaks out or feud now war you could say breaks out or feud now war you could say breaks out or feud really it's more of a feud And Himojin

really it's more of a feud And Himojin really it's more of a feud And Himojin flee has to flee far away into the east flee has to flee far away into the east flee has to flee far away into the east to a place called Baljuna. And he goes to a place called Baljuna. And he goes to a place called Baljuna. And he goes to Baljuna. And at this time then Jamaka to Baljuna. And at this time then Jamaka to Baljuna. And at this time then Jamaka is going to fight on behalf of is going to fight on behalf of is going to fight on behalf of his lord Bong Han. his lord Bong Han. his lord Bong Han. The two of them do not meet in combat. The two of them do not meet in combat. The two of them do not meet in combat. But now their forces are fighting each But now their forces are fighting each But now their forces are fighting each other. other. other. >> And they didn't see that. >> And they didn't see that. >> And they didn't see that. I mean there's an obvious tension there. I mean there's an obvious tension there. I mean there's an obvious tension there. There's an obvious, if slight breaking There's an obvious, if slight breaking There's an obvious, if slight breaking of loyalty, right? of loyalty, right? of loyalty, right? >> Yes. It's hard to know what's going >> Yes. It's hard to know what's going >> Yes. It's hard to know what's going through their mind at that point. We through their mind at that point. We through their mind at that point. We only have it later on only have it later on only have it later on when the the relationship is being when the the relationship is being when the the relationship is being resolved in unfortunate ways that they resolved in unfortunate ways that they resolved in unfortunate ways that they claim that neither one of them ever claim that neither one of them ever claim that neither one of them ever truly broke it because they never harmed truly broke it because they never harmed truly broke it because they never harmed each other directly. And in fact, then each other directly. And in fact, then each other directly. And in fact, then Timujin eventually defeats Van Han. So Timujin eventually defeats Van Han. So Timujin eventually defeats Van Han. So he takes over central Mongolia. He's he takes over central Mongolia. He's he takes over central Mongolia. He's starting to really rise up now. And he starting to really rise up now. And he starting to really rise up now. And he has the title from his own people of has the title from his own people of has the title from his own people of Chingghaskhan.

Chingghaskhan. Chingghaskhan. They give him that at uh um Blackheart They give him that at uh um Blackheart They give him that at uh um Blackheart Mountain by the Blue Lake. It's a very Mountain by the Blue Lake. It's a very Mountain by the Blue Lake. It's a very beautiful special place. But he takes beautiful special place. But he takes beautiful special place. But he takes that title. That's not a title that that title. That's not a title that that title. That's not a title that anyone had ever held that we know of. anyone had ever held that we know of. anyone had ever held that we know of. Ching Han. It was a new title that he Ching Han. It was a new title that he Ching Han. It was a new title that he just uh just uh just uh thought up or somebody thought up or thought up or somebody thought up or thought up or somebody thought up or somebody thought it had auspicious somebody thought it had auspicious somebody thought it had auspicious meaning behind it. It's very close to meaning behind it. It's very close to meaning behind it. It's very close to the word tangis which means the sea. Uh the word tangis which means the sea. Uh the word tangis which means the sea. Uh it could have had something to do with it could have had something to do with it could have had something to do with that. Uh Mongolians really like we might that. Uh Mongolians really like we might that. Uh Mongolians really like we might say puns of they like words with say puns of they like words with say puns of they like words with multiple meanings and that's very multiple meanings and that's very multiple meanings and that's very important to them. The more meanings a important to them. The more meanings a important to them. The more meanings a word has the more power that word has. word has the more power that word has. word has the more power that word has. So it has different meaning in different So it has different meaning in different So it has different meaning in different languages. So in the Mongolian it sounds languages. So in the Mongolian it sounds languages. So in the Mongolian it sounds like strong chin chingis but in Turk and like strong chin chingis but in Turk and like strong chin chingis but in Turk and there are many Turkish people including there are many Turkish people including there are many Turkish people including the market themselves are mostly Turk the market themselves are mostly Turk the market themselves are mostly Turk people. Uh it sounds like uh the C people. Uh it sounds like uh the C people. Uh it sounds like uh the C thingis thing. thingis thing. thingis thing. >> So it's exciting to them when there's >> So it's exciting to them when there's >> So it's exciting to them when there's this double meaning.

this double meaning. this double meaning. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> And the the the double meaning plays >> And the the the double meaning plays >> And the the the double meaning plays with each other and that excites them with each other and that excites them with each other and that excites them >> especially with names. >> especially with names. >> especially with names. >> Yeah. I'm like today in Mongolia or well >> Yeah. I'm like today in Mongolia or well >> Yeah. I'm like today in Mongolia or well I've been there so long I think the fad I've been there so long I think the fad I've been there so long I think the fad has passed now but about 20 years ago it has passed now but about 20 years ago it has passed now but about 20 years ago it was popular to name children Michelle was popular to name children Michelle was popular to name children Michelle >> girls because it's a French name an >> girls because it's a French name an >> girls because it's a French name an American name and it means smile American name and it means smile American name and it means smile >> in Mongolia so it's the power of three >> in Mongolia so it's the power of three >> in Mongolia so it's the power of three great languages and three great civiliz great languages and three great civiliz great languages and three great civiliz and so many names are like that and so I and so many names are like that and so I and so many names are like that and so I think chingis it doesn't have one think chingis it doesn't have one think chingis it doesn't have one meaning I think it means powerful it meaning I think it means powerful it meaning I think it means powerful it means the sea I think it means many means the sea I think it means many means the sea I think it means many different things but so he had become a different things but so he had become a different things but so he had become a Khan and he was ruling over him. And so Khan and he was ruling over him. And so Khan and he was ruling over him. And so Jamaka now switched loyalties to the Jamaka now switched loyalties to the Jamaka now switched loyalties to the next kingdom over called the Nimon next kingdom over called the Nimon next kingdom over called the Nimon people who are farther west and um people who are farther west and um people who are farther west and um he becomes the the protetéé could say of he becomes the the protetéé could say of he becomes the the protetéé could say of the Nimon people. But the Nimon people. But the Nimon people. But when Jigaskhan attacks the Nimon, Jamoka when Jigaskhan attacks the Nimon, Jamoka when Jigaskhan attacks the Nimon, Jamoka deserts the Nimon. He tells them, "These deserts the Nimon. He tells them, "These deserts the Nimon. He tells them, "These people have uh snouts of steel and they people have uh snouts of steel and they people have uh snouts of steel and they eat humans alive." And he was telling eat humans alive." And he was telling eat humans alive." And he was telling him all these horrible things about the him all these horrible things about the him all these horrible things about the Mongols, you know, and uh uh Tayang Han, Mongols, you know, and uh uh Tayang Han, Mongols, you know, and uh uh Tayang Han, the leader of the Nims, he was the leader of the Nims, he was the leader of the Nims, he was rightfully scared about them and he was rightfully scared about them and he was rightfully scared about them and he was left there and he in fact was very left there and he in fact was very left there and he in fact was very quickly also defeated. So Tamaka has not quickly also defeated. So Tamaka has not quickly also defeated. So Tamaka has not fought against Timujin in this campaign.

fought against Timujin in this campaign. fought against Timujin in this campaign. and he's off with some of his people, and he's off with some of his people, and he's off with some of his people, Jadakan clan people. He's off with them Jadakan clan people. He's off with them Jadakan clan people. He's off with them and and and they see the turning of the tide, they see the turning of the tide, they see the turning of the tide, you know, and but he now wants to become you know, and but he now wants to become you know, and but he now wants to become the great Khan of the step. He has very the great Khan of the step. He has very the great Khan of the step. He has very follow very few followers. But he takes follow very few followers. But he takes follow very few followers. But he takes the title Gurhan, which is a very old the title Gurhan, which is a very old the title Gurhan, which is a very old ancient important title. But but because ancient important title. But but because ancient important title. But but because uh Banghan is gone, Toglhan gone that he uh Banghan is gone, Toglhan gone that he uh Banghan is gone, Toglhan gone that he can take this title and pretend to be can take this title and pretend to be can take this title and pretend to be the great Khan of the step and all. But the great Khan of the step and all. But the great Khan of the step and all. But his own people turn against him and they his own people turn against him and they his own people turn against him and they capture him and they think they will capture him and they think they will capture him and they think they will take him to Chingaskhan. It's not take him to Chingaskhan. It's not take him to Chingaskhan. It's not Chingaskhan. They'll take him and they Chingaskhan. They'll take him and they Chingaskhan. They'll take him and they will be rewarded perhaps for turning him will be rewarded perhaps for turning him will be rewarded perhaps for turning him in. And Chingaskhan doesn't reward them in. And Chingaskhan doesn't reward them in. And Chingaskhan doesn't reward them immediately. He kills them all because immediately. He kills them all because immediately. He kills them all because they have betrayed they have betrayed they have betrayed their leader who is his and their leader who is his and their leader who is his and it's a very strange encounter it's a very strange encounter it's a very strange encounter and so supposedly Chenas Han says to him and so supposedly Chenas Han says to him and so supposedly Chenas Han says to him come back to me save me be beside me come back to me save me be beside me come back to me save me be beside me protect me be my shadow be my safety protect me be my shadow be my safety protect me be my shadow be my safety guard in life guard in life guard in life and supposedly Jamuka says, and supposedly Jamuka says, and supposedly Jamuka says, "But I did betray you when my people

"But I did betray you when my people "But I did betray you when my people fought against you and you will always fought against you and you will always fought against you and you will always know that and you will never completely know that and you will never completely know that and you will never completely trust me. I will be like a louse trust me. I will be like a louse trust me. I will be like a louse underneath the collar of your tunic. I underneath the collar of your tunic. I underneath the collar of your tunic. I will be like a thorn in the lapel of will be like a thorn in the lapel of will be like a thorn in the lapel of your dell." He said, "Kill me your dell." He said, "Kill me your dell." He said, "Kill me without shedding my blood. Let me die. without shedding my blood. Let me die. without shedding my blood. Let me die. And if you do, And if you do, And if you do, take my remains up to a high place and take my remains up to a high place and take my remains up to a high place and bury me. And I will be the guard. I will bury me. And I will be the guard. I will bury me. And I will be the guard. I will be the protector for you and your people be the protector for you and your people be the protector for you and your people forever." forever." forever." So they So they So they obviously Tamuin did not participate in obviously Tamuin did not participate in obviously Tamuin did not participate in the killing, but he ordered the killing. the killing, but he ordered the killing. the killing, but he ordered the killing. And uh he was either it's not specified And uh he was either it's not specified And uh he was either it's not specified how he was killed without shedding the how he was killed without shedding the how he was killed without shedding the blood, but the Mongols had several ways blood, but the Mongols had several ways blood, but the Mongols had several ways because the most honorable way to die because the most honorable way to die because the most honorable way to die was without shedding blood. The blood was without shedding blood. The blood was without shedding blood. The blood contains part of the soul and if you contains part of the soul and if you contains part of the soul and if you lose it, you're losing your soul before lose it, you're losing your soul before lose it, you're losing your soul before you die. So they usually wrapped them up you die. So they usually wrapped them up you die. So they usually wrapped them up in felt carpets and then beat them to in felt carpets and then beat them to in felt carpets and then beat them to death or trampled them to death with death or trampled them to death with death or trampled them to death with horses, something like that. There a horses, something like that. There a horses, something like that. There a couple other methods but I think that's couple other methods but I think that's couple other methods but I think that's probably the method by which Jamaka was probably the method by which Jamaka was probably the method by which Jamaka was killed and so he was killed and then killed and so he was killed and then killed and so he was killed and then Tamujin had or Chigasan had his remains Tamujin had or Chigasan had his remains Tamujin had or Chigasan had his remains taken up and buried in a high place.

taken up and buried in a high place. taken up and buried in a high place. This is over near Tuva which is today This is over near Tuva which is today This is over near Tuva which is today part of Russia but until the 20th part of Russia but until the 20th part of Russia but until the 20th century was a part of Mongolia. The century was a part of Mongolia. The century was a part of Mongolia. The Tuven people very very close culturally Tuven people very very close culturally Tuven people very very close culturally to the Mongols. It seems that both of to the Mongols. It seems that both of to the Mongols. It seems that both of them under the under relationship them under the under relationship them under the under relationship had a deep value for loyalty and so the had a deep value for loyalty and so the had a deep value for loyalty and so the way you know it's not worth living after way you know it's not worth living after way you know it's not worth living after you've been disloyal which is the the you've been disloyal which is the the you've been disloyal which is the the Jamaica perspective right Jamaica perspective right Jamaica perspective right >> he had become very practical at this >> he had become very practical at this >> he had become very practical at this point point point and he understood that you needed and he understood that you needed and he understood that you needed complete total loyalty and trust with complete total loyalty and trust with complete total loyalty and trust with everybody around you everybody around you everybody around you and I think for this reason he was and I think for this reason he was and I think for this reason he was willing either say to accept the the willing either say to accept the the willing either say to accept the the plea of of Jamaka and when Changan was plea of of Jamaka and when Changan was plea of of Jamaka and when Changan was asking him to come back and to to be his asking him to come back and to to be his asking him to come back and to to be his uh shadow and to be his uh safety guard uh shadow and to be his uh safety guard uh shadow and to be his uh safety guard again. again. again. Maybe that was just a formality that he Maybe that was just a formality that he Maybe that was just a formality that he knew would be rejected.

knew would be rejected. knew would be rejected. Or maybe when Jamoka offered to be Or maybe when Jamoka offered to be Or maybe when Jamoka offered to be killed without shedding the blood, that killed without shedding the blood, that killed without shedding the blood, that was a formality that he thought would was a formality that he thought would was a formality that he thought would not be followed through. not be followed through. not be followed through. >> Nevertheless, uh to me, just reading >> Nevertheless, uh to me, just reading >> Nevertheless, uh to me, just reading your work and understanding the history, your work and understanding the history, your work and understanding the history, this relationship seems like a really this relationship seems like a really this relationship seems like a really really important relationships that really important relationships that really important relationships that defines the nature of loyalty. defines the nature of loyalty. defines the nature of loyalty. >> Yes. And for for Jingus, >> Yes. And for for Jingus, >> Yes. And for for Jingus, >> I would say in both negative and >> I would say in both negative and >> I would say in both negative and positive ways, it was the most important positive ways, it was the most important positive ways, it was the most important relationship of his adulthood aside from relationship of his adulthood aside from relationship of his adulthood aside from Bura. But that relationship really did Bura. But that relationship really did Bura. But that relationship really did not seem to have many negative aspects. not seem to have many negative aspects. not seem to have many negative aspects. They sometimes disagreed on things, but They sometimes disagreed on things, but They sometimes disagreed on things, but small things. Uh so she was po she was small things. Uh so she was po she was small things. Uh so she was po she was by him and she was positive in every by him and she was positive in every by him and she was positive in every regard so far as we know forever. regard so far as we know forever. regard so far as we know forever. Although she was not submissive, but she Although she was not submissive, but she Although she was not submissive, but she was always on his side. And Chamaka, was always on his side. And Chamaka, was always on his side. And Chamaka, it was just a little too hotheaded for it was just a little too hotheaded for it was just a little too hotheaded for me, you know, I mean, in my evaluation me, you know, I mean, in my evaluation me, you know, I mean, in my evaluation of of him that uh these things like, oh, of of him that uh these things like, oh, of of him that uh these things like, oh, we're going to drop down on the market we're going to drop down on the market we're going to drop down on the market and we're going to come through the and we're going to come through the and we're going to come through the smoke hole, kill everybody, and all. And smoke hole, kill everybody, and all. And smoke hole, kill everybody, and all. And he had a flare for the dramatic even in he had a flare for the dramatic even in he had a flare for the dramatic even in a way giving the gold belt to Timujin.

a way giving the gold belt to Timujin. a way giving the gold belt to Timujin. But Jamaka also he explained himself at But Jamaka also he explained himself at But Jamaka also he explained himself at the end of life and he said you know we the end of life and he said you know we the end of life and he said you know we both lost our father but I also lost my both lost our father but I also lost my both lost our father but I also lost my mother and you had a strong mother to mother and you had a strong mother to mother and you had a strong mother to raise you. I did not. And he said you raise you. I did not. And he said you raise you. I did not. And he said you had bursta. You have a very strong wife had bursta. You have a very strong wife had bursta. You have a very strong wife to help you. And my wife he just used a to help you. And my wife he just used a to help you. And my wife he just used a word like prdler. Like she just sort of word like prdler. Like she just sort of word like prdler. Like she just sort of complains and paddles along. and we did complains and paddles along. and we did complains and paddles along. and we did not have a relationship. not have a relationship. not have a relationship. So So So I think something about that rings true I think something about that rings true I think something about that rings true that there were some some elements of that there were some some elements of that there were some some elements of that that were true. But he Jamaka that that were true. But he Jamaka that that were true. But he Jamaka certainly didn't have the intelligence certainly didn't have the intelligence certainly didn't have the intelligence and the the real genius for dealing with and the the real genius for dealing with and the the real genius for dealing with people dealing with soldiers especially people dealing with soldiers especially people dealing with soldiers especially in war for warfare that uh Tamujin had. in war for warfare that uh Tamujin had. in war for warfare that uh Tamujin had. >> Yeah. There's in that relationship >> Yeah. There's in that relationship >> Yeah. There's in that relationship there's a contrast because Jenghis Khan there's a contrast because Jenghis Khan there's a contrast because Jenghis Khan did not accumulate riches or uh did not accumulate riches or uh did not accumulate riches or uh accumulate power in a way that was for accumulate power in a way that was for accumulate power in a way that was for the sake of the riches or for the sake the sake of the riches or for the sake the sake of the riches or for the sake of the power. It was always very of the power. It was always very of the power. It was always very practical in practical in practical in >> what is the way to maximize >> what is the way to maximize >> what is the way to maximize the success of this operation.

the success of this operation. the success of this operation. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Yes. He I often wonder what happened to >> Yes. He I often wonder what happened to >> Yes. He I often wonder what happened to the gold belt. it disappeared from the the gold belt. it disappeared from the the gold belt. it disappeared from the story you know and a gold belt doesn't story you know and a gold belt doesn't story you know and a gold belt doesn't just disappear you know what happened to just disappear you know what happened to just disappear you know what happened to that it's so interesting because Tamua that it's so interesting because Tamua that it's so interesting because Tamua was never interested in material goods was never interested in material goods was never interested in material goods and when as Jingaskhan is the ruler he and when as Jingaskhan is the ruler he and when as Jingaskhan is the ruler he in some ways you could say became the in some ways you could say became the in some ways you could say became the richest man in the world because he richest man in the world because he richest man in the world because he controlled the most wealth flowing controlled the most wealth flowing controlled the most wealth flowing through him but he always dressed simply through him but he always dressed simply through him but he always dressed simply he always lived in the tent and he said he always lived in the tent and he said he always lived in the tent and he said I eat what my soldiers eat I dress the I eat what my soldiers eat I dress the I eat what my soldiers eat I dress the way my soldiers dress. I live the way my way my soldiers dress. I live the way my way my soldiers dress. I live the way my soldiers live. We are the same. So he soldiers live. We are the same. So he soldiers live. We are the same. So he had no interest in the wealth and had no interest in the wealth and had no interest in the wealth and he had sided before with Vanghan which he had sided before with Vanghan which he had sided before with Vanghan which was very advantageous because they had was very advantageous because they had was very advantageous because they had more trade goods and wealthier people more trade goods and wealthier people more trade goods and wealthier people and all but and all but and all but he just didn't have the temperament I he just didn't have the temperament I he just didn't have the temperament I think that was going to be helpful for think that was going to be helpful for think that was going to be helpful for Jenghaskhan's continued rise. That is Jenghaskhan's continued rise. That is Jenghaskhan's continued rise. That is one of the powerful things about the one of the powerful things about the one of the powerful things about the Jenghis Khan story is he came from Jenghis Khan story is he came from Jenghis Khan story is he came from nothing.

nothing. nothing. >> From absolute nothing >> From absolute nothing >> From absolute nothing >> and he didn't from what I see and >> and he didn't from what I see and >> and he didn't from what I see and understand become sort of corrupted by understand become sort of corrupted by understand become sort of corrupted by the riches or change. He fundamentally the riches or change. He fundamentally the riches or change. He fundamentally remained the same remained the same remained the same >> yes >> yes >> yes >> person who does not have value for >> person who does not have value for >> person who does not have value for material things. material things. material things. >> He changed and matured in various ways >> He changed and matured in various ways >> He changed and matured in various ways over life as we all do or we hope we do. over life as we all do or we hope we do. over life as we all do or we hope we do. But he never became a way. He was never But he never became a way. He was never But he never became a way. He was never greedy. He was never inquisitive. He greedy. He was never inquisitive. He greedy. He was never inquisitive. He kept the simple life. And uh part of the kept the simple life. And uh part of the kept the simple life. And uh part of the simple life for him meant that no one simple life for him meant that no one simple life for him meant that no one was allowed to write about him. No one was allowed to write about him. No one was allowed to write about him. No one was allowed to make his likeness. They was allowed to make his likeness. They was allowed to make his likeness. They couldn't paint a picture of him. They couldn't paint a picture of him. They couldn't paint a picture of him. They couldn't make a a a statue of him. No couldn't make a a a statue of him. No couldn't make a a a statue of him. No building could be built dedicated to building could be built dedicated to building could be built dedicated to him. No palace, no tomb, no temple of him. No palace, no tomb, no temple of him. No palace, no tomb, no temple of any sort, not even at the point of death any sort, not even at the point of death any sort, not even at the point of death at the simplest gravestone. at the simplest gravestone. at the simplest gravestone. Nothing. Nothing. It's fascinating that Nothing. Nothing. It's fascinating that Nothing. Nothing. It's fascinating that a kid like a boy that doesn't know the a kid like a boy that doesn't know the a kid like a boy that doesn't know the world would have the intelligence to world would have the intelligence to world would have the intelligence to understand how corrupting that is. Like understand how corrupting that is. Like understand how corrupting that is. Like the moment somebody builds a statue of the moment somebody builds a statue of the moment somebody builds a statue of you, it's like a slippery slope towards you, it's like a slippery slope towards you, it's like a slippery slope towards becoming not seeing the world clearly, becoming not seeing the world clearly, becoming not seeing the world clearly, not seeing uh surrounding yourself with not seeing uh surrounding yourself with not seeing uh surrounding yourself with sick of hands that don't tell you the sick of hands that don't tell you the sick of hands that don't tell you the right the the information. not being right the the information. not being right the the information. not being able to select the right people to lead able to select the right people to lead able to select the right people to lead the armies or to to lead the territories the armies or to to lead the territories the armies or to to lead the territories that you conquer. So it's interesting that you conquer. So it's interesting that you conquer. So it's interesting that he had that foresight of don't that he had that foresight of don't that he had that foresight of don't record, don't worship.

record, don't worship. record, don't worship. >> Yes, >> Yes, >> Yes, >> that's because that's a dangerous road >> that's because that's a dangerous road >> that's because that's a dangerous road to go down for a leader. to go down for a leader. to go down for a leader. >> And it's very hard to explain how he >> And it's very hard to explain how he >> And it's very hard to explain how he stuck to that, how he got it. you're so stuck to that, how he got it. you're so stuck to that, how he got it. you're so easily corrupted by power and uh easily corrupted by power and uh easily corrupted by power and uh and and yet he maintained this very and and yet he maintained this very and and yet he maintained this very fierce attitude towards his relationship fierce attitude towards his relationship fierce attitude towards his relationship was with the people around him, his was with the people around him, his was with the people around him, his guard mostly the or his private part of guard mostly the or his private part of guard mostly the or his private part of the army, you know, that went with him, the army, you know, that went with him, the army, you know, that went with him, the central part of the army. That was the central part of the army. That was the central part of the army. That was his relationship, his family. He had his relationship, his family. He had his relationship, his family. He had four wives. This was what was important four wives. This was what was important four wives. This was what was important to him. And in fact, no portrait was to him. And in fact, no portrait was to him. And in fact, no portrait was painted until 1278. Well, by then he' painted until 1278. Well, by then he' painted until 1278. Well, by then he' already been dead for 51 years. And then already been dead for 51 years. And then already been dead for 51 years. And then no statue no statue no statue until until until the 21st century. the 21st century. the 21st century. >> Just incredible. But let's uh let's go >> Just incredible. But let's uh let's go >> Just incredible. But let's uh let's go to the document that you referenced to the document that you referenced to the document that you referenced several times, the secret history. several times, the secret history. several times, the secret history. >> The secret history is a very unusual >> The secret history is a very unusual >> The secret history is a very unusual document and and I happen to love it document and and I happen to love it document and and I happen to love it very much. But I said, you know, very much. But I said, you know, very much. But I said, you know, Chinghan allowed nothing to be written Chinghan allowed nothing to be written Chinghan allowed nothing to be written about him in his lifetime. People about him in his lifetime. People about him in his lifetime. People couldn't take notes. Even the army was couldn't take notes. Even the army was couldn't take notes. Even the army was not he Jenask Khan ordered the invention not he Jenask Khan ordered the invention not he Jenask Khan ordered the invention of the alphabet for the Mongol people.

of the alphabet for the Mongol people. of the alphabet for the Mongol people. And it was adapted from the Weaguer And it was adapted from the Weaguer And it was adapted from the Weaguer people. And uh so to this day, it's people. And uh so to this day, it's people. And uh so to this day, it's often called the Ukrish alphabet, the often called the Ukrish alphabet, the often called the Ukrish alphabet, the Weager alphabet. So he had ordered that Weager alphabet. So he had ordered that Weager alphabet. So he had ordered that and he'd ordered his children to learn and he'd ordered his children to learn and he'd ordered his children to learn to read and write. And some did. I think to read and write. And some did. I think to read and write. And some did. I think most did not, but some did. But one of most did not, but some did. But one of most did not, but some did. But one of the things he did with every campaign, the things he did with every campaign, the things he did with every campaign, even the one at the murket when he uh even the one at the murket when he uh even the one at the murket when he uh rescued Berta, was he always adopted one rescued Berta, was he always adopted one rescued Berta, was he always adopted one orphan orphan orphan and that child became a full member of and that child became a full member of and that child became a full member of the Mongol nation in his household. His the Mongol nation in his household. His the Mongol nation in his household. His mother Erlun would raise the child. So mother Erlun would raise the child. So mother Erlun would raise the child. So she eventually had a whole household she eventually had a whole household she eventually had a whole household full of boys of different tribes but full of boys of different tribes but full of boys of different tribes but they all became very high ranking they all became very high ranking they all became very high ranking members of the government and one was a members of the government and one was a members of the government and one was a tatar boy who turned out not to be so tatar boy who turned out not to be so tatar boy who turned out not to be so great as a soldier uh but he could read great as a soldier uh but he could read great as a soldier uh but he could read and write. He was the best and later and write. He was the best and later and write. He was the best and later eventually he became the supreme judge eventually he became the supreme judge eventually he became the supreme judge appointed by Chingis Khan of course and appointed by Chingis Khan of course and appointed by Chingis Khan of course and so when Chinghan died he recognized it so when Chinghan died he recognized it so when Chinghan died he recognized it was important not just to write down the was important not just to write down the was important not just to write down the law that's all Chinghan allowed to be law that's all Chinghan allowed to be law that's all Chinghan allowed to be written in blue books only the law written in blue books only the law written in blue books only the law nothing about him or campaigns or nothing about him or campaigns or nothing about him or campaigns or military anything but uh Shigi Hutuk was military anything but uh Shigi Hutuk was military anything but uh Shigi Hutuk was his name and Shiki Hutuk realized that his name and Shiki Hutuk realized that his name and Shiki Hutuk realized that this was going to be lost that this is a this was going to be lost that this is a this was going to be lost that this is a great historic thing that has happened great historic thing that has happened great historic thing that has happened so he compiled the work part of it. He I so he compiled the work part of it. He I so he compiled the work part of it. He I don't know other people contributed don't know other people contributed don't know other people contributed helped him but it's still a little bit helped him but it's still a little bit helped him but it's still a little bit unclear. Uh the Mongols they don't

unclear. Uh the Mongols they don't unclear. Uh the Mongols they don't specify that's they always tell you specify that's they always tell you specify that's they always tell you exactly where something happens. So we exactly where something happens. So we exactly where something happens. So we know exactly where it happened in know exactly where it happened in know exactly where it happened in Mongolia. You can still go to that spot Mongolia. You can still go to that spot Mongolia. You can still go to that spot where he wrote it. That's very important where he wrote it. That's very important where he wrote it. That's very important to the Mongols. Uh and we also know it's to the Mongols. Uh and we also know it's to the Mongols. Uh and we also know it's the year of the mouse. So it was 1228. the year of the mouse. So it was 1228. the year of the mouse. So it was 1228. Chinghan had died in 27. So he wrote Chinghan had died in 27. So he wrote Chinghan had died in 27. So he wrote down it begins with what we would say down it begins with what we would say down it begins with what we would say are the uh the myths although I'm not are the uh the myths although I'm not are the uh the myths although I'm not sure they're myths but the origins of sure they're myths but the origins of sure they're myths but the origins of the myths it begins with the marriage of the myths it begins with the marriage of the myths it begins with the marriage of gray blue wolf with a tawny deer then gray blue wolf with a tawny deer then gray blue wolf with a tawny deer then some people say well that's some kind of some people say well that's some kind of some people say well that's some kind of myth it's toemic and mongos they look at myth it's toemic and mongos they look at myth it's toemic and mongos they look at me I asked them about this they said me I asked them about this they said me I asked them about this they said what what what he was named blue grey wolf she was he was named blue grey wolf she was he was named blue grey wolf she was named Tony deer they married you know named Tony deer they married you know named Tony deer they married you know very practical ical about it and they very practical ical about it and they very practical ical about it and they think they're real people. Maybe they think they're real people. Maybe they think they're real people. Maybe they were or not. I don't know. But so this were or not. I don't know. But so this were or not. I don't know. But so this earlier history is just the genealogy as earlier history is just the genealogy as earlier history is just the genealogy as it should be. Who knows? But it's also it should be. Who knows? But it's also it should be. Who knows? But it's also in there because like Bodenar, they call in there because like Bodenar, they call in there because like Bodenar, they call him Bodenar the fool, the ancestor of him Bodenar the fool, the ancestor of him Bodenar the fool, the ancestor of Timujin. He's cast out because he's just Timujin. He's cast out because he's just Timujin. He's cast out because he's just so dumb. The rest of the family doesn't so dumb. The rest of the family doesn't so dumb. The rest of the family doesn't want him. His father is undetermined who want him. His father is undetermined who want him. His father is undetermined who he was. He kidnaps Hanghai woman. She he was. He kidnaps Hanghai woman. She he was. He kidnaps Hanghai woman. She has the child who becomes ancestor. So has the child who becomes ancestor. So has the child who becomes ancestor. So it's a confusing mess, but I I tend to it's a confusing mess, but I I tend to it's a confusing mess, but I I tend to think it's probably accurate. It has a think it's probably accurate. It has a think it's probably accurate. It has a lot of good information. And by the time lot of good information. And by the time lot of good information. And by the time you get to the life of Timujin, the you get to the life of Timujin, the you get to the life of Timujin, the reason we know these intimate things is reason we know these intimate things is reason we know these intimate things is because that person Shiki Hut, he was

because that person Shiki Hut, he was because that person Shiki Hut, he was there sleeping in the same gear with the there sleeping in the same gear with the there sleeping in the same gear with the people. So we even see in there, he will people. So we even see in there, he will people. So we even see in there, he will record instances where Bura sits up in record instances where Bura sits up in record instances where Bura sits up in bed and tells her husband, "Okay, you bed and tells her husband, "Okay, you bed and tells her husband, "Okay, you got to do this, you got to do that, you got to do this, you got to do that, you got to do this, you got to do that, you can't do this anymore. we can't think of can't do this anymore. we can't think of can't do this anymore. we can't think of you know it's all recorded right so it's you know it's all recorded right so it's you know it's all recorded right so it's a very intimate document and this is one a very intimate document and this is one a very intimate document and this is one reason that it was secret it was only reason that it was secret it was only reason that it was secret it was only for the family they were trying to for the family they were trying to for the family they were trying to uphold sing as Han's prohibition against uphold sing as Han's prohibition against uphold sing as Han's prohibition against putting out information about the family putting out information about the family putting out information about the family so it was secret for a very long time so so it was secret for a very long time so so it was secret for a very long time so much so the scholars began to think it much so the scholars began to think it much so the scholars began to think it didn't exist and then in the 19th didn't exist and then in the 19th didn't exist and then in the 19th century a Russian academic who was century a Russian academic who was century a Russian academic who was working in uh China at the time in working in uh China at the time in working in uh China at the time in Beijing, he discovered a manuscript Beijing, he discovered a manuscript Beijing, he discovered a manuscript which was very very odd that people which was very very odd that people which was very very odd that people didn't think was anything because it's didn't think was anything because it's didn't think was anything because it's all Chinese characters, all Chinese characters, all Chinese characters, but it makes no sense in Chinese. But he but it makes no sense in Chinese. But he but it makes no sense in Chinese. But he recognized, but if you read it, recognized, but if you read it, recognized, but if you read it, pronounce it, it makes sense in pronounce it, it makes sense in pronounce it, it makes sense in Mongolian.

Mongolian. Mongolian. So it was in this code that had been So it was in this code that had been So it was in this code that had been used to record the information in used to record the information in used to record the information in Chinese. Chinese. Chinese. >> So they were recording the sounds. the >> So they were recording the sounds. the >> So they were recording the sounds. the sounds. Correct. They use Chinese sounds. Correct. They use Chinese sounds. Correct. They use Chinese characters to record sounds characters to record sounds characters to record sounds >> which is always problematic in some >> which is always problematic in some >> which is always problematic in some little areas you're not exactly sure little areas you're not exactly sure little areas you're not exactly sure what the name is or something like but what the name is or something like but what the name is or something like but uh it was a very unusual document uh it was a very unusual document uh it was a very unusual document and then once they found it they they and then once they found it they they and then once they found it they they realized that some of the Persian realized that some of the Persian realized that some of the Persian documents had incorporated part of that documents had incorporated part of that documents had incorporated part of that already. So that was very helpful to me already. So that was very helpful to me already. So that was very helpful to me because some of the Persians I trust because some of the Persians I trust because some of the Persians I trust very much and I like their work very very much and I like their work very very much and I like their work very much and so it was helpful that it much and so it was helpful that it much and so it was helpful that it already existed and all of it some of it already existed and all of it some of it already existed and all of it some of it existed in Mongolian existed in Mongolian existed in Mongolian other Mongolian sources that were other Mongolian sources that were other Mongolian sources that were written later some of it was uh just written later some of it was uh just written later some of it was uh just incorporated so it seemed to be fairly incorporated so it seemed to be fairly incorporated so it seemed to be fairly genuine but it wasn't 100% pure it had genuine but it wasn't 100% pure it had genuine but it wasn't 100% pure it had little things had happened to it along little things had happened to it along little things had happened to it along the way uh some things have been stipped the way uh some things have been stipped the way uh some things have been stipped here and there and a few words changed here and there and a few words changed here and there and a few words changed and like sometimes for Timuchin they and like sometimes for Timuchin they and like sometimes for Timuchin they call him Chingas Han well he wasn't the call him Chingas Han well he wasn't the call him Chingas Han well he wasn't the Han then and sometimes they call him Han Han then and sometimes they call him Han Han then and sometimes they call him Han which is like chief and other times Han which is like chief and other times Han which is like chief and other times Han which is emperor well in Mongolia it's a which is emperor well in Mongolia it's a which is emperor well in Mongolia it's a big difference you know so there little big difference you know so there little big difference you know so there little things like this that move around that things like this that move around that things like this that move around that you're not sure why but it's a document you're not sure why but it's a document you're not sure why but it's a document that I have great faith in it was not that I have great faith in it was not that I have great faith in it was not published in English until 1982 but published in English until 1982 but published in English until 1982 but Francis Woodman Cleaves at Harvard Francis Woodman Cleaves at Harvard Francis Woodman Cleaves at Harvard University translated it in 50s it was University translated it in 50s it was University translated it in 50s it was ready for publication and he was having

ready for publication and he was having ready for publication and he was having trouble with the publisher and so it trouble with the publisher and so it trouble with the publisher and so it didn't appear for nearly 30 years. It didn't appear for nearly 30 years. It didn't appear for nearly 30 years. It was supposed to be two volumes. The was supposed to be two volumes. The was supposed to be two volumes. The first volume is the translation. The first volume is the translation. The first volume is the translation. The second volume was going to be the uh second volume was going to be the uh second volume was going to be the uh notes and the second volume was lost. notes and the second volume was lost. notes and the second volume was lost. To this day it hasn't been found. I To this day it hasn't been found. I To this day it hasn't been found. I would love to see that. But uh anyway it would love to see that. But uh anyway it would love to see that. But uh anyway it now it's in all languages just about in now it's in all languages just about in now it's in all languages just about in the world. the world. the world. >> Can you clarify? So there's two volumes. >> Can you clarify? So there's two volumes. >> Can you clarify? So there's two volumes. The 19th century Chinese manuscript The 19th century Chinese manuscript The 19th century Chinese manuscript covers the first volume. covers the first volume. covers the first volume. >> Uh yes, that was translated and then >> Uh yes, that was translated and then >> Uh yes, that was translated and then published by Harvard University. But the published by Harvard University. But the published by Harvard University. But the notes were just the notes from the notes were just the notes from the notes were just the notes from the scholar Francis Woodman Cleaves. Those scholar Francis Woodman Cleaves. Those scholar Francis Woodman Cleaves. Those were his notes, not Mongolian notes. were his notes, not Mongolian notes. were his notes, not Mongolian notes. There are Chinese notes that went with There are Chinese notes that went with There are Chinese notes that went with it because the Chinese had trouble it because the Chinese had trouble it because the Chinese had trouble understanding a lot of things in it. And understanding a lot of things in it. And understanding a lot of things in it. And they also they disapproved of some they also they disapproved of some they also they disapproved of some things. So they would try to put their things. So they would try to put their things. So they would try to put their own notes in the margins to kind of own notes in the margins to kind of own notes in the margins to kind of correct the story and explain away why correct the story and explain away why correct the story and explain away why the Mongols women would be often the Mongols women would be often the Mongols women would be often marrying their stepson. It just did not marrying their stepson. It just did not marrying their stepson. It just did not match with confusion ethics, you know.

match with confusion ethics, you know. match with confusion ethics, you know. So there's several things like that that So there's several things like that that So there's several things like that that they try to skip around. But so it's they try to skip around. But so it's they try to skip around. But so it's interesting just to read the Ming interesting just to read the Ming interesting just to read the Ming dynasty notes that are attached to it. dynasty notes that are attached to it. dynasty notes that are attached to it. But the document itself mongalo But the document itself mongalo But the document itself mongalo it's just so important and for me it was it's just so important and for me it was it's just so important and for me it was the guiding document. I didn't want to the guiding document. I didn't want to the guiding document. I didn't want to be guided by anything else first. be guided by anything else first. be guided by anything else first. Everything else I would check to Everything else I would check to Everything else I would check to correlate and fill in blanks and give correlate and fill in blanks and give correlate and fill in blanks and give more information. But I went to Mongolia more information. But I went to Mongolia more information. But I went to Mongolia to travel around to those places because to travel around to those places because to travel around to those places because they are so exact in there and to feel they are so exact in there and to feel they are so exact in there and to feel it. And it's so important I think it. And it's so important I think it. And it's so important I think because you know history does not live because you know history does not live because you know history does not live in books. History does not live in in books. History does not live in in books. History does not live in archives or even libraries as much as I archives or even libraries as much as I archives or even libraries as much as I need them for my work. But history lives need them for my work. But history lives need them for my work. But history lives in the people. History lives in the in the people. History lives in the in the people. History lives in the memory of the people and the culture. memory of the people and the culture. memory of the people and the culture. And for example, the episode with the And for example, the episode with the And for example, the episode with the kidnapping of Bura. So I went to that kidnapping of Bura. So I went to that kidnapping of Bura. So I went to that place and I didn't know when it place and I didn't know when it place and I didn't know when it happened, what season it happened. It happened, what season it happened. It happened, what season it happened. It was very important for figuring out the was very important for figuring out the was very important for figuring out the bursts that came afterwards and other bursts that came afterwards and other bursts that came afterwards and other events that were being correlated. Very events that were being correlated. Very events that were being correlated. Very important to me. And so I'm just talking important to me. And so I'm just talking important to me. And so I'm just talking to the people who live in that valley, to the people who live in that valley, to the people who live in that valley, the nomads there. They said, "Oh, it's the nomads there. They said, "Oh, it's the nomads there. They said, "Oh, it's clear. It's it was the winter." I said, clear. It's it was the winter." I said, clear. It's it was the winter." I said, 'Oh, where did you read that? Said, 'N 'Oh, where did you read that? Said, 'N 'Oh, where did you read that? Said, 'N no, Granny Quaxton was on the ground and no, Granny Quaxton was on the ground and no, Granny Quaxton was on the ground and she could feel the vibrations. She said, she could feel the vibrations. She said, she could feel the vibrations. She said, 'Look, this is summertime now. You're 'Look, this is summertime now. You're 'Look, this is summertime now. You're not going to feel any vibrations. The not going to feel any vibrations. The not going to feel any vibrations. The ground here is so soft.

ground here is so soft. ground here is so soft. Suddenly, a whole important piece that Suddenly, a whole important piece that Suddenly, a whole important piece that I've been searching for just came I've been searching for just came I've been searching for just came together from some nomad sitting there together from some nomad sitting there together from some nomad sitting there next to his horse. And he was absolutely right. It could And he was absolutely right. It could only happen in the winter. And that that only happen in the winter. And that that only happen in the winter. And that that also correlates with the time that also correlates with the time that also correlates with the time that raiding was done. So it correlates with raiding was done. So it correlates with raiding was done. So it correlates with other historic factors. But then that other historic factors. But then that other historic factors. But then that gave me the the time basis for figuring gave me the the time basis for figuring gave me the the time basis for figuring out a lot of other things. History lives out a lot of other things. History lives out a lot of other things. History lives in the people. in the people. in the people. >> Just to linger on that point, you >> Just to linger on that point, you >> Just to linger on that point, you visited different places that were visited different places that were visited different places that were important to the story of Changdis Khan. important to the story of Changdis Khan. important to the story of Changdis Khan. >> What did it feel like? What are some >> What did it feel like? What are some >> What did it feel like? What are some memorable things about memorable things about memorable things about just the experience of standing there? just the experience of standing there? just the experience of standing there? >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Yes. I really set out mostly to visit the I really set out mostly to visit the I really set out mostly to visit the cities he had conquered across Central cities he had conquered across Central cities he had conquered across Central Asia and all. And there was so little to Asia and all. And there was so little to Asia and all. And there was so little to learn. I mean, everything was kind of learn. I mean, everything was kind of learn. I mean, everything was kind of known of whatever the chronicers had known of whatever the chronicers had known of whatever the chronicers had recorded. The archaeologists had found recorded. The archaeologists had found recorded. The archaeologists had found whatever they had found. And I get there whatever they had found. And I get there whatever they had found. And I get there and he hadn't spent much time there. He and he hadn't spent much time there. He and he hadn't spent much time there. He didn't identify with it. I wasn't didn't identify with it. I wasn't didn't identify with it. I wasn't feeling anything. But in Mongolia, I feeling anything. But in Mongolia, I feeling anything. But in Mongolia, I would go to these places and I would would go to these places and I would would go to these places and I would know if Chingas Han came back today, he know if Chingas Han came back today, he know if Chingas Han came back today, he would know exactly where he is. There's would know exactly where he is. There's would know exactly where he is. There's no road, there's no sign, there's no no road, there's no sign, there's no no road, there's no sign, there's no building, there's no building, there's no building, there's no power line going to nothing. And just to power line going to nothing. And just to power line going to nothing. And just to smell the air, to feel it, to see the smell the air, to feel it, to see the smell the air, to feel it, to see the animals and to see what what kind of animals and to see what what kind of animals and to see what what kind of animals live here, what kind of plants

animals live here, what kind of plants animals live here, what kind of plants are growing here, you begin to get a a are growing here, you begin to get a a are growing here, you begin to get a a feeling for how he was thinking. And feeling for how he was thinking. And feeling for how he was thinking. And then you begin to see ah I know which then you begin to see ah I know which then you begin to see ah I know which direction they came from. The only direction they came from. The only direction they came from. The only direction they could come from was that direction they could come from was that direction they could come from was that way. You you begin to see it and his way. You you begin to see it and his way. You you begin to see it and his life starts to unfold in a very dramatic life starts to unfold in a very dramatic life starts to unfold in a very dramatic way that I have the text way that I have the text way that I have the text but the text is like it has no scenery, but the text is like it has no scenery, but the text is like it has no scenery, no props, nothing like that. The Mongols no props, nothing like that. The Mongols no props, nothing like that. The Mongols all understand their way of life. They all understand their way of life. They all understand their way of life. They don't need to explain anything. They don't need to explain anything. They don't need to explain anything. They know which way the gear faces with the know which way the gear faces with the know which way the gear faces with the sun. They know all these things. But for sun. They know all these things. But for sun. They know all these things. But for me that's how I learned it. It was from me that's how I learned it. It was from me that's how I learned it. It was from being with the people. It was the most being with the people. It was the most being with the people. It was the most important thing. And this was in important thing. And this was in important thing. And this was in starting in the 1990s. starting in the 1990s. starting in the 1990s. And the people And the people And the people they were at this time they were amazed they were at this time they were amazed they were at this time they were amazed that I would come. The Soviet era had that I would come. The Soviet era had that I would come. The Soviet era had just ended. Socialism had was just just ended. Socialism had was just just ended. Socialism had was just ending. Democracy was starting. And ending. Democracy was starting. And ending. Democracy was starting. And Chingghaskhan had been forbidden to them Chingghaskhan had been forbidden to them Chingghaskhan had been forbidden to them for almost the entire century. And every for almost the entire century. And every for almost the entire century. And every known descendant of Chingghas Han was known descendant of Chingghas Han was known descendant of Chingghas Han was killed in Mongolia.

killed in Mongolia. killed in Mongolia. Following the secret history that became Following the secret history that became Following the secret history that became the key to writing what I wrote. Take the key to writing what I wrote. Take the key to writing what I wrote. Take the history which is difficult to the history which is difficult to the history which is difficult to understand. you have to go over and it understand. you have to go over and it understand. you have to go over and it didn't I often never understand didn't I often never understand didn't I often never understand different parts or or I change my mind different parts or or I change my mind different parts or or I change my mind and think it was yes now it's no and and and think it was yes now it's no and and and think it was yes now it's no and and but the secret history is a valuable but the secret history is a valuable but the secret history is a valuable document and to me also it's the opening document and to me also it's the opening document and to me also it's the opening document of Mongolian written language document of Mongolian written language document of Mongolian written language and I think it's very important how do and I think it's very important how do and I think it's very important how do people begin their written language people begin their written language people begin their written language >> and they begin it with the words >> and they begin it with the words >> and they begin it with the words Derees, Derees, Derees, from highest heaven came the destiny of from highest heaven came the destiny of from highest heaven came the destiny of the blue wolf who was married to the the blue wolf who was married to the the blue wolf who was married to the Tony deer and their descendants who came Tony deer and their descendants who came Tony deer and their descendants who came from the great sea to live at the base from the great sea to live at the base from the great sea to live at the base of Mount Bhan Haldun. of Mount Bhan Haldun. of Mount Bhan Haldun. and then integrating the the spiritual and then integrating the the spiritual and then integrating the the spiritual elements of nature, the mountains and elements of nature, the mountains and elements of nature, the mountains and the great sea and this kind of just like the great sea and this kind of just like the great sea and this kind of just like a deep connection to nature that they a deep connection to nature that they a deep connection to nature that they have.

have. have. >> Mongolia is a world that for the most >> Mongolia is a world that for the most >> Mongolia is a world that for the most part is the same as when Chinghan was part is the same as when Chinghan was part is the same as when Chinghan was there. We cannot say that for hardly any there. We cannot say that for hardly any there. We cannot say that for hardly any other place in the world. Uh I mean other place in the world. Uh I mean other place in the world. Uh I mean certainly not for America but just a few certainly not for America but just a few certainly not for America but just a few hundred years ago it was entirely hundred years ago it was entirely hundred years ago it was entirely different people, languages, everything. different people, languages, everything. different people, languages, everything. But you can't say it for for London or But you can't say it for for London or But you can't say it for for London or Moscow or or Constantin Istanbul, Moscow or or Constantin Istanbul, Moscow or or Constantin Istanbul, Constantinople. All of these things have Constantinople. All of these things have Constantinople. All of these things have changed so much. But Mongolia is still changed so much. But Mongolia is still changed so much. But Mongolia is still Mongolia. It's one of the largest Mongolia. It's one of the largest Mongolia. It's one of the largest countries in the world in in space with countries in the world in in space with countries in the world in in space with the fewest number of people about today the fewest number of people about today the fewest number of people about today 3.3 million and they're spread out and 3.3 million and they're spread out and 3.3 million and they're spread out and they live in their environment in such they live in their environment in such they live in their environment in such an intimate way. an intimate way. an intimate way. This was important for learning about This was important for learning about This was important for learning about Chingghis Khan, how he thought, how he Chingghis Khan, how he thought, how he Chingghis Khan, how he thought, how he hunted, how he strategized for war. You hunted, how he strategized for war. You hunted, how he strategized for war. You learn that from the people today because learn that from the people today because learn that from the people today because they are still there. They're still they are still there. They're still they are still there. They're still living. living. living. >> What's the open Mongolian step like? As >> What's the open Mongolian step like? As >> What's the open Mongolian step like? As we return to the feeling of Timin and we return to the feeling of Timin and we return to the feeling of Timin and Jenghis Khan, what's it like looking at Jenghis Khan, what's it like looking at Jenghis Khan, what's it like looking at this place that has not changed since this place that has not changed since this place that has not changed since his time? The first thing I think about his time? The first thing I think about his time? The first thing I think about this step is that you can see forever in this step is that you can see forever in this step is that you can see forever in every direction.

every direction. every direction. There's no building, nothing to stop There's no building, nothing to stop There's no building, nothing to stop your line of view. And it's like being your line of view. And it's like being your line of view. And it's like being in the ocean in many ways. So you have in the ocean in many ways. So you have in the ocean in many ways. So you have this extremely open space and the wind this extremely open space and the wind this extremely open space and the wind is usually blowing through it, but it's is usually blowing through it, but it's is usually blowing through it, but it's extremely fresh. It's coming out of extremely fresh. It's coming out of extremely fresh. It's coming out of Siberia. It's coming out of the Arctic. Siberia. It's coming out of the Arctic. Siberia. It's coming out of the Arctic. It sweeps down across Mongolia. Cold is It sweeps down across Mongolia. Cold is It sweeps down across Mongolia. Cold is a thickening sometimes but it's always a thickening sometimes but it's always a thickening sometimes but it's always fresh. Always fresh. So you have the fresh. Always fresh. So you have the fresh. Always fresh. So you have the wind coming in. You have the smell of wind coming in. You have the smell of wind coming in. You have the smell of the wind but also then there's grass. the wind but also then there's grass. the wind but also then there's grass. The smell of grass becomes very The smell of grass becomes very The smell of grass becomes very important. Now because of the particular important. Now because of the particular important. Now because of the particular location from one year to another one location from one year to another one location from one year to another one area may have grass one year and and area may have grass one year and and area may have grass one year and and then drought the next year another area then drought the next year another area then drought the next year another area has grass. So you don't always know if has grass. So you don't always know if has grass. So you don't always know if it's not grass it's dust. you have dust it's not grass it's dust. you have dust it's not grass it's dust. you have dust growing in. The dust doesn't smell so growing in. The dust doesn't smell so growing in. The dust doesn't smell so good. It doesn't feel so good. Uh but good. It doesn't feel so good. Uh but good. It doesn't feel so good. Uh but that's just one more part of the that's just one more part of the that's just one more part of the country. country. country. The waters are mostly pure. Now, The waters are mostly pure. Now, The waters are mostly pure. Now, unfortunately, there has been pollution unfortunately, there has been pollution unfortunately, there has been pollution in in this century from mining in in in this century from mining in in in this century from mining in several areas.

several areas. several areas. Even when I was there uh even today when Even when I was there uh even today when Even when I was there uh even today when we go to some place like the sailing we go to some place like the sailing we go to some place like the sailing river where we talk about the market river where we talk about the market river where we talk about the market lift so it's a place of pure waters and lift so it's a place of pure waters and lift so it's a place of pure waters and that's how Mongolians define their world that's how Mongolians define their world that's how Mongolians define their world is by the water they don't does is by the water they don't does is by the water they don't does not give lands to his sons to rule he not give lands to his sons to rule he not give lands to his sons to rule he gives waters and people to rule they do gives waters and people to rule they do gives waters and people to rule they do not refer to the earth as land they not refer to the earth as land they not refer to the earth as land they refer to the earth as dal ocean the sea refer to the earth as dal ocean the sea refer to the earth as dal ocean the sea and so water is very important and to and so water is very important and to and so water is very important and to learn the rules about water you don't learn the rules about water you don't learn the rules about water you don't camp by water if you camp by water your camp by water if you camp by water your camp by water if you camp by water your animals and you are going to be animals and you are going to be animals and you are going to be polluting it messing it up so they're polluting it messing it up so they're polluting it messing it up so they're back maybe in our modern terms about a back maybe in our modern terms about a back maybe in our modern terms about a kilometer back you take the animals to kilometer back you take the animals to kilometer back you take the animals to the river to drink and then you take the river to drink and then you take the river to drink and then you take them away you do not bathe in that river them away you do not bathe in that river them away you do not bathe in that river you take the water away from the river you take the water away from the river you take the water away from the river and you bathe away from the river so you and you bathe away from the river so you and you bathe away from the river so you do not pollute the river. The rules are do not pollute the river. The rules are do not pollute the river. The rules are very strict and very clear and they're very strict and very clear and they're very strict and very clear and they're from the time of Chingghaskhan from the time of Chingghaskhan from the time of Chingghaskhan about how to deal with also it's about how to deal with also it's about how to deal with also it's dangerous to live close to the river dangerous to live close to the river dangerous to live close to the river because there are flash floods in the because there are flash floods in the because there are flash floods in the summertime. You could suddenly have it summertime. You could suddenly have it summertime. You could suddenly have it and it could wipe away if your camp is and it could wipe away if your camp is and it could wipe away if your camp is right there by the water.

right there by the water. right there by the water. So the people So the people So the people they live with nature in a way that I they live with nature in a way that I they live with nature in a way that I don't see anywhere else in the world. don't see anywhere else in the world. don't see anywhere else in the world. And even today with the changes with the And even today with the changes with the And even today with the changes with the cell phone and with solar panels and cell phone and with solar panels and cell phone and with solar panels and they could get TV out in the middle of they could get TV out in the middle of they could get TV out in the middle of the step, still they're living a similar the step, still they're living a similar the step, still they're living a similar life. The young people of course want to life. The young people of course want to life. The young people of course want to drive a motorbike, but they're still drive a motorbike, but they're still drive a motorbike, but they're still hurting cows and yaks and camels. If hurting cows and yaks and camels. If hurting cows and yaks and camels. If it's on a motorbike, okay, they're still it's on a motorbike, okay, they're still it's on a motorbike, okay, they're still doing it the Mongol way. doing it the Mongol way. doing it the Mongol way. But then if we go to the time of But then if we go to the time of But then if we go to the time of Timigjin of Jenghis Khan another Timigjin of Jenghis Khan another Timigjin of Jenghis Khan another component is the horses. Can we talk component is the horses. Can we talk component is the horses. Can we talk about their relationship with the horse about their relationship with the horse about their relationship with the horse thinking about this open step uh from a thinking about this open step uh from a thinking about this open step uh from a young age they've been all Mongols are young age they've been all Mongols are young age they've been all Mongols are trained uh to master trained uh to master trained uh to master riding horses as you write while riding horses as you write while riding horses as you write while standing on the horse. So they learned standing on the horse. So they learned standing on the horse. So they learned how to ride while standing on the horse how to ride while standing on the horse how to ride while standing on the horse from a young age. While standing on the from a young age. While standing on the from a young age. While standing on the horse, they often jousted with one horse, they often jousted with one horse, they often jousted with one another to see who could knock the other another to see who could knock the other another to see who could knock the other off. When their legs grew long enough to off. When their legs grew long enough to off. When their legs grew long enough to reach the stirrups, reach the stirrups, reach the stirrups, they were also taught to shoot arrows they were also taught to shoot arrows they were also taught to shoot arrows and to lasso on horseback, making and to lasso on horseback, making and to lasso on horseback, making targets out of leather pouches that they targets out of leather pouches that they targets out of leather pouches that they would dangle from poles so they would would dangle from poles so they would would dangle from poles so they would blow in the wind. The youngsters blow in the wind. The youngsters blow in the wind. The youngsters practice hitting the targets from practice hitting the targets from practice hitting the targets from horseback at varying distances and horseback at varying distances and horseback at varying distances and speeds. The skills of such play proved speeds. The skills of such play proved speeds. The skills of such play proved invaluable to horsemanships later in invaluable to horsemanships later in invaluable to horsemanships later in life. Can you speak to the relationship

life. Can you speak to the relationship life. Can you speak to the relationship of Jangghaskhan and the Mongols to of Jangghaskhan and the Mongols to of Jangghaskhan and the Mongols to horses? horses? horses? The Mongol and the horse are The Mongol and the horse are The Mongol and the horse are inseparable. inseparable. inseparable. I wrote one line in in the book that the I wrote one line in in the book that the I wrote one line in in the book that the editor removed because that was editor removed because that was editor removed because that was insulting. I said the Mongol and the insulting. I said the Mongol and the insulting. I said the Mongol and the horse, they live together. They know horse, they live together. They know horse, they live together. They know each other with every twitch of the each other with every twitch of the each other with every twitch of the muscle and they smell the same. Well, I muscle and they smell the same. Well, I muscle and they smell the same. Well, I was saying it just not to be insulting was saying it just not to be insulting was saying it just not to be insulting about anything, but they have that deep about anything, but they have that deep about anything, but they have that deep intimacy and the horses do know their intimacy and the horses do know their intimacy and the horses do know their owner from the smell. This is very owner from the smell. This is very owner from the smell. This is very important. It's also important for important. It's also important for important. It's also important for Chinghan because they made the the flags Chinghan because they made the the flags Chinghan because they made the the flags what they call the sult out of the horse what they call the sult out of the horse what they call the sult out of the horse hair from their own horses. And so in hair from their own horses. And so in hair from their own horses. And so in battle they used it for a very practical battle they used it for a very practical battle they used it for a very practical purpose and that is the horses would purpose and that is the horses would purpose and that is the horses would return to their source because they knew return to their source because they knew return to their source because they knew the smell of their flag. It was other the smell of their flag. It was other the smell of their flag. It was other members of their own herd. So the members of their own herd. So the members of their own herd. So the language itself I have never ever language itself I have never ever language itself I have never ever mastered all the words just for the mastered all the words just for the mastered all the words just for the colors of horses much less for all the colors of horses much less for all the colors of horses much less for all the other things about it. I can remember other things about it. I can remember other things about it. I can remember Mongolians being out there in the Mongolians being out there in the Mongolians being out there in the countryside. And they say, "Oh, I want countryside. And they say, "Oh, I want countryside. And they say, "Oh, I want to learn English." I say, "Okay, yeah, to learn English." I say, "Okay, yeah, to learn English." I say, "Okay, yeah, that's nice." Um, you teach me some that's nice." Um, you teach me some that's nice." Um, you teach me some words in Mongolia. I teach you the words in Mongolia. I teach you the words in Mongolia. I teach you the words. Okay. Say, "What color is that words. Okay. Say, "What color is that words. Okay. Say, "What color is that horse?" I say, "Brown." They would say, horse?" I say, "Brown." They would say, horse?" I say, "Brown." They would say, "Brown." I say, "Yes." Okay. What color "Brown." I say, "Yes." Okay. What color "Brown." I say, "Yes." Okay. What color is that horse? Brown.

is that horse? Brown. is that horse? Brown. Then they But you said this color was Then they But you said this color was Then they But you said this color was brown. What color is this? brown. What color is this? brown. What color is this? >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> So, I mean, I I I >> So, I mean, I I I >> So, I mean, I I I just amazing. I mean they have words just amazing. I mean they have words just amazing. I mean they have words based on sort of how smooth the coloring based on sort of how smooth the coloring based on sort of how smooth the coloring is and the the variation in the texture is and the the variation in the texture is and the the variation in the texture and all the different today in English and all the different today in English and all the different today in English sometimes you can put them together we sometimes you can put them together we sometimes you can put them together we say like yellow brown or brown brown or say like yellow brown or brown brown or say like yellow brown or brown brown or you know but the words for horses by of you know but the words for horses by of you know but the words for horses by of course by sex and then they have three course by sex and then they have three course by sex and then they have three because they have gildings so they're because they have gildings so they're because they have gildings so they're very important too and by age and by very important too and by age and by very important too and by age and by whether or not they've reproduced in the whether or not they've reproduced in the whether or not they've reproduced in the case of the females. All these things case of the females. All these things case of the females. All these things are important parts of the horse. And are important parts of the horse. And are important parts of the horse. And the horse a few years ago the a the horse a few years ago the a the horse a few years ago the a presidential candidate ran under the presidential candidate ran under the presidential candidate ran under the slogan raised in the dust of many fast slogan raised in the dust of many fast slogan raised in the dust of many fast horses. horses. horses. It just resonates with the Mongolian It just resonates with the Mongolian It just resonates with the Mongolian spirit and the dust itself is important. spirit and the dust itself is important. spirit and the dust itself is important. The Mongolians, they will wipe the sweat The Mongolians, they will wipe the sweat The Mongolians, they will wipe the sweat and the dust off the horse and wipe it and the dust off the horse and wipe it and the dust off the horse and wipe it onto their own forehead, which is the onto their own forehead, which is the onto their own forehead, which is the most sacred part of the body where the most sacred part of the body where the most sacred part of the body where the soul resides. This is how intimate the soul resides. This is how intimate the soul resides. This is how intimate the relationship is with the horses. And relationship is with the horses. And relationship is with the horses. And they're hard on them in some ways. They they're hard on them in some ways. They they're hard on them in some ways. They train them very well. They ride them train them very well. They ride them train them very well. They ride them very hard. But the horses are also very hard. But the horses are also very hard. But the horses are also trained for that. They use a very small trained for that. They use a very small trained for that. They use a very small crop that's it's a little bit like a crop that's it's a little bit like a crop that's it's a little bit like a stick with a slight whip at the end and stick with a slight whip at the end and stick with a slight whip at the end and they hit the rump of the horse. Never they hit the rump of the horse. Never they hit the rump of the horse. Never anything else. They're horrified at

anything else. They're horrified at anything else. They're horrified at Western people who use metal spurs and Western people who use metal spurs and Western people who use metal spurs and uh metal uh metal uh metal to harm the horse in the stomach and to to harm the horse in the stomach and to to harm the horse in the stomach and to harm the head of a horse. They say it's harm the head of a horse. They say it's harm the head of a horse. They say it's a capital crime. I mean, I I don't know a capital crime. I mean, I I don't know a capital crime. I mean, I I don't know anyone who's ever executed for it, but anyone who's ever executed for it, but anyone who's ever executed for it, but you never ever harm a horse's head. So you never ever harm a horse's head. So you never ever harm a horse's head. So the horses are the horses are the horses are important in every way, even religiously important in every way, even religiously important in every way, even religiously important with the making of the important with the making of the important with the making of the fermented horses milk that the mother fermented horses milk that the mother fermented horses milk that the mother goes out every morning and she throws goes out every morning and she throws goes out every morning and she throws some to each of the four directions to some to each of the four directions to some to each of the four directions to start the day and they use it for every start the day and they use it for every start the day and they use it for every kind of thing that but you know some kind of thing that but you know some kind of thing that but you know some things puzzled me that in my watching I things puzzled me that in my watching I things puzzled me that in my watching I remember one day being with a very nice remember one day being with a very nice remember one day being with a very nice family. It happened to be on a gilding family. It happened to be on a gilding family. It happened to be on a gilding day when they were out there gilding the day when they were out there gilding the day when they were out there gilding the wouldbe stallions who don't get to be wouldbe stallions who don't get to be wouldbe stallions who don't get to be stallions. But uh then one of the this stallions. But uh then one of the this stallions. But uh then one of the this family they had a bunch of boys and I family they had a bunch of boys and I family they had a bunch of boys and I think about like one or two girls were think about like one or two girls were think about like one or two girls were like four or five boys. And one boy was like four or five boys. And one boy was like four or five boys. And one boy was maybe 11 years old. He fell from the maybe 11 years old. He fell from the maybe 11 years old. He fell from the horse. You could see it not so far away.

horse. You could see it not so far away. horse. You could see it not so far away. He fell from the horse and he didn't get He fell from the horse and he didn't get He fell from the horse and he didn't get up. No one moved. In fact, they all kind up. No one moved. In fact, they all kind up. No one moved. In fact, they all kind of turned attention away. And I thought, of turned attention away. And I thought, of turned attention away. And I thought, what am I supposed to say? This boy fell what am I supposed to say? This boy fell what am I supposed to say? This boy fell down. Somebody go get him. No. down. Somebody go get him. No. down. Somebody go get him. No. And then the boy was trying to hobble And then the boy was trying to hobble And then the boy was trying to hobble back. He still had the range to his back. He still had the range to his back. He still had the range to his horse. He was but he couldn't remount horse. He was but he couldn't remount horse. He was but he couldn't remount and he was trying to hobble back. So his and he was trying to hobble back. So his and he was trying to hobble back. So his little brother went out to help him come little brother went out to help him come little brother went out to help him come in. And they came into the gear and they in. And they came into the gear and they in. And they came into the gear and they sat down. The mother just turned her sat down. The mother just turned her sat down. The mother just turned her back. And I'm thinking, how on earth can back. And I'm thinking, how on earth can back. And I'm thinking, how on earth can you do this? This is a child. This is you do this? This is a child. This is you do this? This is a child. This is your child, you know. your child, you know. your child, you know. But two weeks later by chance But two weeks later by chance But two weeks later by chance another boy who is practicing for Nadam another boy who is practicing for Nadam another boy who is practicing for Nadam the annual races like this boy had been the annual races like this boy had been the annual races like this boy had been doing he was off in an area right close doing he was off in an area right close doing he was off in an area right close to the forested mountain area and the to the forested mountain area and the to the forested mountain area and the horse bolted took off through the woods. horse bolted took off through the woods. horse bolted took off through the woods. He was knocked off by a tree and then He was knocked off by a tree and then He was knocked off by a tree and then the horse went deeper into the woods. the horse went deeper into the woods. the horse went deeper into the woods. The boy followed him. The boy became The boy followed him. The boy became The boy followed him. The boy became lost. The boy was 12 years old. He was lost. The boy was 12 years old. He was lost. The boy was 12 years old. He was lost for two weeks and he lived. I would lost for two weeks and he lived. I would lost for two weeks and he lived. I would have died in 48 hours. He lived. He have died in 48 hours. He lived. He have died in 48 hours. He lived. He said, "Well, he slept in the daytime said, "Well, he slept in the daytime said, "Well, he slept in the daytime when it was warm. He walked at night when it was warm. He walked at night when it was warm. He walked at night when it was cold, even though this was a when it was cold, even though this was a when it was cold, even though this was a summertime. The nights can be quite summertime. The nights can be quite summertime. The nights can be quite cold, especially on a mountain." And he cold, especially on a mountain." And he cold, especially on a mountain." And he sang loudly all night long to keep the sang loudly all night long to keep the sang loudly all night long to keep the wolves away. And he knew what to eat.

wolves away. And he knew what to eat. wolves away. And he knew what to eat. And then he walked until he found water And then he walked until he found water And then he walked until he found water moving. And then he would follow that moving. And then he would follow that moving. And then he would follow that water down to the neck. He lived. And I water down to the neck. He lived. And I water down to the neck. He lived. And I realized the boy falls on the horse, his realized the boy falls on the horse, his realized the boy falls on the horse, his mother's not going to be there. mother's not going to be there. mother's not going to be there. She knows that. And it's probably hard She knows that. And it's probably hard She knows that. And it's probably hard for her too to see her boy suffer, but for her too to see her boy suffer, but for her too to see her boy suffer, but she knows. she knows. she knows. Just a small tangent. Uh there's a Just a small tangent. Uh there's a Just a small tangent. Uh there's a wrestler named Carrie Colette and he wrestler named Carrie Colette and he wrestler named Carrie Colette and he tells the story tells the story tells the story about mental toughness that about mental toughness that about mental toughness that the first time he saw truly mentally the first time he saw truly mentally the first time he saw truly mentally tough people was when he visited uh tough people was when he visited uh tough people was when he visited uh Mongolia for a wrestling tournament and Mongolia for a wrestling tournament and Mongolia for a wrestling tournament and he remembered that they were taking he remembered that they were taking he remembered that they were taking showers in ice cold water and you know showers in ice cold water and you know showers in ice cold water and you know all the other wrestlers they would take all the other wrestlers they would take all the other wrestlers they would take the shower and the when the water hits the shower and the when the water hits the shower and the when the water hits them you could see a little grimace. them you could see a little grimace. them you could see a little grimace. With the with the Mongols, there was With the with the Mongols, there was With the with the Mongols, there was just no it was emotionless. Sort of like just no it was emotionless. Sort of like just no it was emotionless. Sort of like uh ice cold water or any other kind of uh ice cold water or any other kind of uh ice cold water or any other kind of hardship.

hardship. hardship. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> It you build a hardness to that >> It you build a hardness to that >> It you build a hardness to that >> and I suppose that falling from the >> and I suppose that falling from the >> and I suppose that falling from the horse is just an example of that. horse is just an example of that. horse is just an example of that. There's a mental hardness and a mental There's a mental hardness and a mental There's a mental hardness and a mental toughness. toughness. toughness. >> You have to be able to to take care of >> You have to be able to to take care of >> You have to be able to to take care of yourself. And with the weather, for yourself. And with the weather, for yourself. And with the weather, for example, the often in in that time is example, the often in in that time is example, the often in in that time is still today, some people, if they can still today, some people, if they can still today, some people, if they can have the privacy to do it, they the men have the privacy to do it, they the men have the privacy to do it, they the men will strip naked in the first heavy snow will strip naked in the first heavy snow will strip naked in the first heavy snow and roll around in the snow in order to and roll around in the snow in order to and roll around in the snow in order to prepare for the coming winter. prepare for the coming winter. prepare for the coming winter. And I and the valley where I live, the And I and the valley where I live, the And I and the valley where I live, the rest a lot of wrestlers come there to rest a lot of wrestlers come there to rest a lot of wrestlers come there to train in the summertime for the train in the summertime for the train in the summertime for the competition. And and the water's very competition. And and the water's very competition. And and the water's very cold coming down from the mountain. And cold coming down from the mountain. And cold coming down from the mountain. And every day when there's a break, they go every day when there's a break, they go every day when there's a break, they go down, they take again, they do not get down, they take again, they do not get down, they take again, they do not get in the water, never, but they take the in the water, never, but they take the in the water, never, but they take the water and they pour the cold water over water and they pour the cold water over water and they pour the cold water over themselves. And yes, that's refreshing themselves. And yes, that's refreshing themselves. And yes, that's refreshing to them. Refreshing. to them. Refreshing. to them. Refreshing. >> Well, then uh getting back to the >> Well, then uh getting back to the >> Well, then uh getting back to the horses, the value they had for the horses, the value they had for the horses, the value they had for the horses and the horse riding skill they horses and the horse riding skill they horses and the horse riding skill they developed throughout their life created developed throughout their life created developed throughout their life created one of the most unstoppable military one of the most unstoppable military one of the most unstoppable military forces in history. So, if we just talk forces in history. So, if we just talk forces in history. So, if we just talk about the mounted archery that they've about the mounted archery that they've about the mounted archery that they've employed in war, employed in war, employed in war, >> um the Mongols were able to do targeted >> um the Mongols were able to do targeted >> um the Mongols were able to do targeted shooting accurately at 200 m or more shooting accurately at 200 m or more shooting accurately at 200 m or more while riding fast, you know, uh up to while riding fast, you know, uh up to while riding fast, you know, uh up to speeds of 60 km an hour, I read. So, uh,

speeds of 60 km an hour, I read. So, uh, speeds of 60 km an hour, I read. So, uh, there's a lot to say like, you know, you there's a lot to say like, you know, you there's a lot to say like, you know, you you have to time and just watching some you have to time and just watching some you have to time and just watching some of the videos, it's just incredible how of the videos, it's just incredible how of the videos, it's just incredible how stable you could be on top of a horse. stable you could be on top of a horse. stable you could be on top of a horse. And I guess you're supposed to be And I guess you're supposed to be And I guess you're supposed to be shooting at a moment of the gallop when shooting at a moment of the gallop when shooting at a moment of the gallop when all four of the feet of the horse are all four of the feet of the horse are all four of the feet of the horse are off off the ground. And you have to time off off the ground. And you have to time off off the ground. And you have to time all of that. You have to position your all of that. You have to position your all of that. You have to position your body to maintain balance. And then body to maintain balance. And then body to maintain balance. And then there's the skill of the actual holding there's the skill of the actual holding there's the skill of the actual holding and shooting the bow accurately. And and shooting the bow accurately. And and shooting the bow accurately. And there's obviously the technology of the there's obviously the technology of the there's obviously the technology of the bow, the composite bow, the recurve bow. bow, the composite bow, the recurve bow. bow, the composite bow, the recurve bow. They've also I read used crossbows They've also I read used crossbows They've also I read used crossbows later. They've adapted the technology. later. They've adapted the technology. later. They've adapted the technology. And there's a particular kind of thumb And there's a particular kind of thumb And there's a particular kind of thumb draw that you use for shooting with the draw that you use for shooting with the draw that you use for shooting with the composite bow that works for a horse cuz composite bow that works for a horse cuz composite bow that works for a horse cuz the thing is bouncing up and down, the thing is bouncing up and down, the thing is bouncing up and down, right? So you have to like not drop the right? So you have to like not drop the right? So you have to like not drop the arrow. It's just incredible to be able arrow. It's just incredible to be able arrow. It's just incredible to be able to shoot while the horse is going 60 km to shoot while the horse is going 60 km to shoot while the horse is going 60 km an hour. Anyway, can you speak to this an hour. Anyway, can you speak to this an hour. Anyway, can you speak to this kind of exceptional excellence that the kind of exceptional excellence that the kind of exceptional excellence that the Jenghaskhan and the Mongols had for uh Jenghaskhan and the Mongols had for uh Jenghaskhan and the Mongols had for uh riding horses and uh engaging in war uh riding horses and uh engaging in war uh riding horses and uh engaging in war uh off of the horse?

off of the horse? off of the horse? >> The Mongol, the horse and the bow were a >> The Mongol, the horse and the bow were a >> The Mongol, the horse and the bow were a perfect combination and it was the most perfect combination and it was the most perfect combination and it was the most lethal weapon known to the world before lethal weapon known to the world before lethal weapon known to the world before the modern era. It was incredible the the modern era. It was incredible the the modern era. It was incredible the synchronization and the timing of the synchronization and the timing of the synchronization and the timing of the movements and also the years of skill. movements and also the years of skill. movements and also the years of skill. The fact that from absolute birth the The fact that from absolute birth the The fact that from absolute birth the Mongols would be on a horse and by 3 Mongols would be on a horse and by 3 Mongols would be on a horse and by 3 years old they would probably be riding years old they would probably be riding years old they would probably be riding alone on the horse. Now when I first alone on the horse. Now when I first alone on the horse. Now when I first went to Mongolia in the 1990s at that went to Mongolia in the 1990s at that went to Mongolia in the 1990s at that time time time all jockeyies on horses for races had to all jockeyies on horses for races had to all jockeyies on horses for races had to be under six years old. be under six years old. be under six years old. That was the age limit. The cut off was That was the age limit. The cut off was That was the age limit. The cut off was six years old at that time. And so you six years old at that time. And so you six years old at that time. And so you had some as three years old racing out had some as three years old racing out had some as three years old racing out there. It's absolutely incredible. And there. It's absolutely incredible. And there. It's absolutely incredible. And of course that's at that age they can't of course that's at that age they can't of course that's at that age they can't even have a saddle because they can't even have a saddle because they can't even have a saddle because they can't even be used. So they're just all even be used. So they're just all even be used. So they're just all they're doing is staying on the horse. they're doing is staying on the horse. they're doing is staying on the horse. The horse has been trained to do what it The horse has been trained to do what it The horse has been trained to do what it has to do and they just stay on it. But has to do and they just stay on it. But has to do and they just stay on it. But by staying on it, they they learn the by staying on it, they they learn the by staying on it, they they learn the horse. They become one. And not just one horse. They become one. And not just one horse. They become one. And not just one horse with one rider, but one rider with horse with one rider, but one rider with horse with one rider, but one rider with several horses. They usually five is the several horses. They usually five is the several horses. They usually five is the number that you should have uh for you number that you should have uh for you number that you should have uh for you when you go off to battle. And this when you go off to battle. And this when you go off to battle. And this ability then is shoot. You have to ability then is shoot. You have to ability then is shoot. You have to defend your animals. There are wolves defend your animals. There are wolves defend your animals. There are wolves around, fox, other things. And in some around, fox, other things. And in some around, fox, other things. And in some areas there were even tigers and uh uh areas there were even tigers and uh uh areas there were even tigers and uh uh other animals that would come in and you other animals that would come in and you other animals that would come in and you had to be able to shoot to defend it had to be able to shoot to defend it had to be able to shoot to defend it against other people who might be against other people who might be against other people who might be raiding you. So they became excellent

raiding you. So they became excellent raiding you. So they became excellent archers. They had composite bows that archers. They had composite bows that archers. They had composite bows that were very powerful, much more powerful were very powerful, much more powerful were very powerful, much more powerful than those of most sedentary people. than those of most sedentary people. than those of most sedentary people. Now, I say all that because it's very Now, I say all that because it's very Now, I say all that because it's very important, but those are all sort of important, but those are all sort of important, but those are all sort of nomadic traits of the great step. nomadic traits of the great step. nomadic traits of the great step. Anyway, I mean, in an earlier version, Anyway, I mean, in an earlier version, Anyway, I mean, in an earlier version, you had the Huns who came out of you had the Huns who came out of you had the Huns who came out of Mongolia and Hun is just the Mongolian Mongolia and Hun is just the Mongolian Mongolia and Hun is just the Mongolian word for human. Hun, that's to this day, word for human. Hun, that's to this day, word for human. Hun, that's to this day, that's what they say for human being. So that's what they say for human being. So that's what they say for human being. So they came out of Mongolia and all the they came out of Mongolia and all the they came out of Mongolia and all the early Turk groups came out of Mongolia early Turk groups came out of Mongolia early Turk groups came out of Mongolia and they had the similar skills. So you and they had the similar skills. So you and they had the similar skills. So you have this perfect weapon but also you have this perfect weapon but also you have this perfect weapon but also you have to have perfect strategy and how to have to have perfect strategy and how to have to have perfect strategy and how to coordinate it and organize it and use coordinate it and organize it and use coordinate it and organize it and use it. And this is where the genius that I it. And this is where the genius that I it. And this is where the genius that I cannot explain at all but the genius of cannot explain at all but the genius of cannot explain at all but the genius of Jenghaskhan came in. Other people I Jenghaskhan came in. Other people I Jenghaskhan came in. Other people I think were had been very good in earlier think were had been very good in earlier think were had been very good in earlier times. a number of Turk leaders and also times. a number of Turk leaders and also times. a number of Turk leaders and also um or even Autillaa the Hun who of um or even Autillaa the Hun who of um or even Autillaa the Hun who of course was actually born in the west but course was actually born in the west but course was actually born in the west but but they were charismatic leaders and but they were charismatic leaders and but they were charismatic leaders and very dramatic leaders and it wasn't that very dramatic leaders and it wasn't that very dramatic leaders and it wasn't that they were so excellent in their they were so excellent in their they were so excellent in their strategy. They were very good in warfare strategy. They were very good in warfare strategy. They were very good in warfare and that's what carried him through.

and that's what carried him through. and that's what carried him through. Changing Han's army was extremely good Changing Han's army was extremely good Changing Han's army was extremely good in warfare but small. He never got in warfare but small. He never got in warfare but small. He never got probably above 100,000. at the most probably above 100,000. at the most probably above 100,000. at the most 110,000 110,000 110,000 that is small when you're going against that is small when you're going against that is small when you're going against China China China that has millions just in the army that has millions just in the army that has millions just in the army not to count in the country and you're not to count in the country and you're not to count in the country and you're going against Russia and you're going going against Russia and you're going going against Russia and you're going against the Middle East and Persia and against the Middle East and Persia and against the Middle East and Persia and Afghanistan and these areas Afghanistan and these areas Afghanistan and these areas your whole army has to be as finely your whole army has to be as finely your whole army has to be as finely tuned as each rider each bow and each tuned as each rider each bow and each tuned as each rider each bow and each horse that's the weapon but the army horse that's the weapon but the army horse that's the weapon but the army becomes the super weapon of Chingghis becomes the super weapon of Chingghis becomes the super weapon of Chingghis Han, how he organized it on how he used Han, how he organized it on how he used Han, how he organized it on how he used it and the strategies that he put it and the strategies that he put it and the strategies that he put together. together. together. >> Yeah. When you have a small army, just >> Yeah. When you have a small army, just >> Yeah. When you have a small army, just think about that. A small army that think about that. A small army that think about that. A small army that conquered conquered conquered the world. the world. the world. >> It would fit in a stadium today in >> It would fit in a stadium today in >> It would fit in a stadium today in America. America. America. >> So there's extreme >> So there's extreme >> So there's extreme efficient coordination of units, mostly efficient coordination of units, mostly efficient coordination of units, mostly cavalry, right?

cavalry, right? cavalry, right? >> All cavalry. >> All cavalry. >> All cavalry. >> Oh, it's all cavalry. He had no infantry >> Oh, it's all cavalry. He had no infantry >> Oh, it's all cavalry. He had no infantry and he had no baggage train. He had no and he had no baggage train. He had no and he had no baggage train. He had no backup commissary. backup commissary. backup commissary. Uh early on, no engineer corps. Later Uh early on, no engineer corps. Later Uh early on, no engineer corps. Later one was added much later. Uh but no, all one was added much later. Uh but no, all one was added much later. Uh but no, all cavalry and uh so there's light cavalry cavalry and uh so there's light cavalry cavalry and uh so there's light cavalry and heavy cavalry and uh breaking down and heavy cavalry and uh breaking down and heavy cavalry and uh breaking down units using the decimal system 10, 100, units using the decimal system 10, 100, units using the decimal system 10, 100, a thousand. So um there's a kind of a thousand. So um there's a kind of a thousand. So um there's a kind of hierarchy where you delegate authority hierarchy where you delegate authority hierarchy where you delegate authority but to the degree there's commands they but to the degree there's commands they but to the degree there's commands they must be followed strictly. must be followed strictly. must be followed strictly. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> So for like extremely efficient accurate >> So for like extremely efficient accurate >> So for like extremely efficient accurate precise precise precise deployment of these uh troops on the deployment of these uh troops on the deployment of these uh troops on the battlefield and the dynamic movement of battlefield and the dynamic movement of battlefield and the dynamic movement of the troops including all the interesting the troops including all the interesting the troops including all the interesting tactics that were utilized. You have to tactics that were utilized. You have to tactics that were utilized. You have to have really good communication and have really good communication and have really good communication and coordination and for that orders must be coordination and for that orders must be coordination and for that orders must be followed. followed. followed. >> Yes.

>> Yes. >> Yes. >> Uh is there something to speak to that >> Uh is there something to speak to that >> Uh is there something to speak to that like how do you tune this kind of system like how do you tune this kind of system like how do you tune this kind of system to where everybody is working together to where everybody is working together to where everybody is working together so well? so well? so well? >> I think the first point is the extreme >> I think the first point is the extreme >> I think the first point is the extreme loyalty of the people whom Chinghan loyalty of the people whom Chinghan loyalty of the people whom Chinghan chose. His kinsmen as we said had chose. His kinsmen as we said had chose. His kinsmen as we said had deserted him. His and was a Christianal deserted him. His and was a Christianal deserted him. His and was a Christianal relationship but the all the others that relationship but the all the others that relationship but the all the others that he found were just common people herders he found were just common people herders he found were just common people herders or hunters very common and they were or hunters very common and they were or hunters very common and they were loyal to him and never ever revolted loyal to him and never ever revolted loyal to him and never ever revolted against him never betrayed him. So he against him never betrayed him. So he against him never betrayed him. So he had extreme loyalty and then as you had extreme loyalty and then as you had extreme loyalty and then as you mention he organized his decimal system. mention he organized his decimal system. mention he organized his decimal system. So the smallest unit of the army was the So the smallest unit of the army was the So the smallest unit of the army was the ar the 10 the squad of 10 men. They were ar the 10 the squad of 10 men. They were ar the 10 the squad of 10 men. They were put together and then the head of that put together and then the head of that put together and then the head of that squad, he had total control over it. But squad, he had total control over it. But squad, he had total control over it. But the men knew that they were going to the men knew that they were going to the men knew that they were going to protect each other and they had to come protect each other and they had to come protect each other and they had to come back with every member or everybody. You back with every member or everybody. You back with every member or everybody. You don't leave anybody behind. So this was don't leave anybody behind. So this was don't leave anybody behind. So this was extremely important. So if you submit to extremely important. So if you submit to extremely important. So if you submit to the orders of the man in charge, you the orders of the man in charge, you the orders of the man in charge, you know that he's risking his own life for know that he's risking his own life for know that he's risking his own life for you also. and you know that your brother you also. and you know that your brother you also. and you know that your brother on the left and on the right is risking on the left and on the right is risking on the left and on the right is risking his life for you. The army was they were his life for you. The army was they were his life for you. The army was they were organized with five horses each man.

organized with five horses each man. organized with five horses each man. They had their bow and they had a lot of They had their bow and they had a lot of They had their bow and they had a lot of arrows as many as they could have but arrows as many as they could have but arrows as many as they could have but they also retrieved arrows at the end of they also retrieved arrows at the end of they also retrieved arrows at the end of their battle. And they also would their battle. And they also would their battle. And they also would retrieve the enemy arrows. This was a retrieve the enemy arrows. This was a retrieve the enemy arrows. This was a great advantage by the way when they hit great advantage by the way when they hit great advantage by the way when they hit Russia because the Russians could not Russia because the Russians could not Russia because the Russians could not use Mongolian arrows. They could knock use Mongolian arrows. They could knock use Mongolian arrows. They could knock them in their in their bow. But the them in their in their bow. But the them in their in their bow. But the Mongols could use Russian arrows. But so Mongols could use Russian arrows. But so Mongols could use Russian arrows. But so all these little things, but it's not all these little things, but it's not all these little things, but it's not even just the arrow. Also, they had to even just the arrow. Also, they had to even just the arrow. Also, they had to carry carry carry needle and thread. needle and thread. needle and thread. Every soldier had to be able to sew. And Every soldier had to be able to sew. And Every soldier had to be able to sew. And sometimes that could be a torn garment. sometimes that could be a torn garment. sometimes that could be a torn garment. It could be a piece of skin or a wound It could be a piece of skin or a wound It could be a piece of skin or a wound that somebody has. Was a very odd thing that somebody has. Was a very odd thing that somebody has. Was a very odd thing when you think about the army of Ching when you think about the army of Ching when you think about the army of Ching Han and they're carrying everything Han and they're carrying everything Han and they're carrying everything themselves. They don't have any pack themselves. They don't have any pack themselves. They don't have any pack train behind them. And that one of the train behind them. And that one of the train behind them. And that one of the things they have to carry is needle and things they have to carry is needle and things they have to carry is needle and thread in order to sew up things. thread in order to sew up things. thread in order to sew up things. >> So complete self-reliance in that >> So complete self-reliance in that >> So complete self-reliance in that regard. regard. regard. >> Yes. They also carried dried dairy >> Yes. They also carried dried dairy >> Yes. They also carried dried dairy products it's called where they dry curd products it's called where they dry curd products it's called where they dry curd and they can keep it for a couple of and they can keep it for a couple of and they can keep it for a couple of years even. But you dry it and then when years even. But you dry it and then when years even. But you dry it and then when you need it you can put it in a flask of you need it you can put it in a flask of you need it you can put it in a flask of water. You ride all day it joggles up water. You ride all day it joggles up water. You ride all day it joggles up and down. Boom boom boom and turns into and down. Boom boom boom and turns into and down. Boom boom boom and turns into kind of thick protein. It said that the kind of thick protein. It said that the kind of thick protein. It said that the Mongols could easily go 3 to 5 days Mongols could easily go 3 to 5 days Mongols could easily go 3 to 5 days without ever building a fire. They had without ever building a fire. They had without ever building a fire. They had enough food there with. So all these enough food there with. So all these enough food there with. So all these little things at the lowest level were little things at the lowest level were little things at the lowest level were important as well at the highest level important as well at the highest level important as well at the highest level of his loyalty of his men to him and it of his loyalty of his men to him and it of his loyalty of his men to him and it went all the way down. Loyalty was

went all the way down. Loyalty was went all the way down. Loyalty was extremely important and he organized the extremely important and he organized the extremely important and he organized the army into left-wing, right-wing or east army into left-wing, right-wing or east army into left-wing, right-wing or east and west. Mongols the word for left is and west. Mongols the word for left is and west. Mongols the word for left is east. The word for right is uh west. So east. The word for right is uh west. So east. The word for right is uh west. So those two wings and then in the middle those two wings and then in the middle those two wings and then in the middle was the goal, the center, this moving was the goal, the center, this moving was the goal, the center, this moving center that was his center that was his center that was his is a bodyguard and his unit in the is a bodyguard and his unit in the is a bodyguard and his unit in the middle. Then usually they would have a middle. Then usually they would have a middle. Then usually they would have a vanguard and a rear guard. And sometimes vanguard and a rear guard. And sometimes vanguard and a rear guard. And sometimes the vanguard would go out as much as two the vanguard would go out as much as two the vanguard would go out as much as two years in advance to clear the land, run years in advance to clear the land, run years in advance to clear the land, run the people away, scare them, make them the people away, scare them, make them the people away, scare them, make them go away so that the grass is left there go away so that the grass is left there go away so that the grass is left there for the army when it moves through. for the army when it moves through. for the army when it moves through. And they never marched the way other And they never marched the way other And they never marched the way other armies do in a line of one following the armies do in a line of one following the armies do in a line of one following the other. They would always go in long other. They would always go in long other. They would always go in long lines spread out in wings so that each lines spread out in wings so that each lines spread out in wings so that each horse is on its own path you can say all horse is on its own path you can say all horse is on its own path you can say all but all parallel together. So they had but all parallel together. So they had but all parallel together. So they had very precise ways of doing things and uh very precise ways of doing things and uh very precise ways of doing things and uh this I think was the secret with him and this I think was the secret with him and this I think was the secret with him and he used the best people but he also he he used the best people but he also he he used the best people but he also he was willing to train them as much as was willing to train them as much as was willing to train them as much as possible. He never punished them for possible. He never punished them for possible. He never punished them for what happened. So Shiki Hutuk for what happened. So Shiki Hutuk for what happened. So Shiki Hutuk for example the the supreme judge he was in example the the supreme judge he was in example the the supreme judge he was in command one time of a group in the command one time of a group in the command one time of a group in the battle in in Afghanistan and he lost the battle in in Afghanistan and he lost the battle in in Afghanistan and he lost the battle which is very very unusual for battle which is very very unusual for battle which is very very unusual for Mongols. So Chingis Khan went out with

Mongols. So Chingis Khan went out with Mongols. So Chingis Khan went out with him said okay let's go to the him said okay let's go to the him said okay let's go to the battlefield together and look it over battlefield together and look it over battlefield together and look it over and you explain to me what you did and and you explain to me what you did and and you explain to me what you did and then we will talk about it. So he was then we will talk about it. So he was then we will talk about it. So he was very thoughtful in the way that he was very thoughtful in the way that he was very thoughtful in the way that he was training the people around him and they training the people around him and they training the people around him and they knew they weren't going to be punished. knew they weren't going to be punished. knew they weren't going to be punished. It's not like these countries where the It's not like these countries where the It's not like these countries where the general comes back and gets executed cuz general comes back and gets executed cuz general comes back and gets executed cuz he lost. No. Changing Han knows every he lost. No. Changing Han knows every he lost. No. Changing Han knows every general is going to try 100%. And if general is going to try 100%. And if general is going to try 100%. And if they retreat, fine. They're saving they retreat, fine. They're saving they retreat, fine. They're saving Mongol lives. They know what to do. He Mongol lives. They know what to do. He Mongol lives. They know what to do. He respects that. So all these things like respects that. So all these things like respects that. So all these things like that fit together. But I think a part of that fit together. But I think a part of that fit together. But I think a part of it that was important for him. So he had it that was important for him. So he had it that was important for him. So he had this base from step warfare already, the this base from step warfare already, the this base from step warfare already, the horse, the the archery, and how that all horse, the the archery, and how that all horse, the the archery, and how that all fit together. But he was very quick to fit together. But he was very quick to fit together. But he was very quick to embrace any kind of other technology embrace any kind of other technology embrace any kind of other technology that he saw. I think that sedentary that he saw. I think that sedentary that he saw. I think that sedentary armies like sedentary civilizations, armies like sedentary civilizations, armies like sedentary civilizations, they get stuck in their ways. This is they get stuck in their ways. This is they get stuck in their ways. This is how we do it. And we're going to make it how we do it. And we're going to make it how we do it. And we're going to make it a little faster. We're going to make it a little faster. We're going to make it a little faster. We're going to make it a little bigger, a little stronger, but a little bigger, a little stronger, but a little bigger, a little stronger, but this is how we think. Ching Han had no this is how we think. Ching Han had no this is how we think. Ching Han had no set way to think. And when he set way to think. And when he set way to think. And when he encountered the first walled cities encountered the first walled cities encountered the first walled cities around 1209 after founding his nation in around 1209 after founding his nation in around 1209 after founding his nation in 1206, he went out on these raids. And I 1206, he went out on these raids. And I 1206, he went out on these raids. And I really think they were raids, not wars really think they were raids, not wars really think they were raids, not wars at first. So he went into Tanga at first. So he went into Tanga at first. So he went into Tanga territory of what's now northwestern territory of what's now northwestern territory of what's now northwestern China in the upper reaches of the Yellow China in the upper reaches of the Yellow China in the upper reaches of the Yellow River. So he went there and of course River. So he went there and of course River. So he went there and of course the cities have walls around them. This the cities have walls around them. This the cities have walls around them. This is a man who's never encountered a wall

is a man who's never encountered a wall is a man who's never encountered a wall in his life. in his life. in his life. Well, he did, but they were made out of Well, he did, but they were made out of Well, he did, but they were made out of felt. The walls around his tent are, you felt. The walls around his tent are, you felt. The walls around his tent are, you know, felt walls. know, felt walls. know, felt walls. >> Yeah. Just imagine what it's like >> Yeah. Just imagine what it's like >> Yeah. Just imagine what it's like uh for the first time in your life uh for the first time in your life uh for the first time in your life seeing a wall. seeing a wall. seeing a wall. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> When when you come from the Mongolian >> When when you come from the Mongolian >> When when you come from the Mongolian step where there's no there's very few step where there's no there's very few step where there's no there's very few even natural walllike things, even natural walllike things, even natural walllike things, >> right? Well, they have like the wall >> right? Well, they have like the wall >> right? Well, they have like the wall cliffs in some places. They're familiar cliffs in some places. They're familiar cliffs in some places. They're familiar with that and they can climb them but with that and they can climb them but with that and they can climb them but they don't have people at the top they don't have people at the top they don't have people at the top shooting down the mountain but on the So shooting down the mountain but on the So shooting down the mountain but on the So he looked but he looked at everything he looked but he looked at everything he looked but he looked at everything around him and he saw okay they have around him and he saw okay they have around him and he saw okay they have this river and they have all these this river and they have all these this river and they have all these channels and they're always moving water channels and they're always moving water channels and they're always moving water around and like we said for a Mongol around and like we said for a Mongol around and like we said for a Mongol anything that moves is a potential anything that moves is a potential anything that moves is a potential weapon. Anything that doesn't move is a weapon. Anything that doesn't move is a weapon. Anything that doesn't move is a target. You've got moving water you've target. You've got moving water you've target. You've got moving water you've got a standing non-moving wall. So heed got a standing non-moving wall. So heed got a standing non-moving wall. So heed said, "Okay, the men are going to dig said, "Okay, the men are going to dig said, "Okay, the men are going to dig uh channel and they're going to bring uh channel and they're going to bring uh channel and they're going to bring down the wall of the Tangut city." Well, down the wall of the Tangut city." Well, down the wall of the Tangut city." Well, they did it and they didn't know exactly they did it and they didn't know exactly they did it and they didn't know exactly what they were doing and the embankments what they were doing and the embankments what they were doing and the embankments weren't high enough and too much water weren't high enough and too much water weren't high enough and too much water came in from the Yellow River and came in from the Yellow River and came in from the Yellow River and actually flooded out the Mongol camp.

actually flooded out the Mongol camp. actually flooded out the Mongol camp. But okay, it happened. We learned that But okay, it happened. We learned that But okay, it happened. We learned that lesson. So, we're going to improve it. lesson. So, we're going to improve it. lesson. So, we're going to improve it. And that became a strategy that actually And that became a strategy that actually And that became a strategy that actually worked for the Mongols for the next 50 worked for the Mongols for the next 50 worked for the Mongols for the next 50 years all the way to Baghdad. They were years all the way to Baghdad. They were years all the way to Baghdad. They were able to use it when they conquered able to use it when they conquered able to use it when they conquered Baghdad in 1258. So this is this ability Baghdad in 1258. So this is this ability Baghdad in 1258. So this is this ability to see things and to try them and if to see things and to try them and if to see things and to try them and if they fail to try them in a different way they fail to try them in a different way they fail to try them in a different way but a better way. We all think we learn but a better way. We all think we learn but a better way. We all think we learn from our mistakes. We all Yeah. Yeah. I from our mistakes. We all Yeah. Yeah. I from our mistakes. We all Yeah. Yeah. I I learned from that. I And what do we I learned from that. I And what do we I learned from that. I And what do we do? We repeat the mistake. I think it's do? We repeat the mistake. I think it's do? We repeat the mistake. I think it's just a part of human nature. Well, it just a part of human nature. Well, it just a part of human nature. Well, it didn't work the first eight times, but didn't work the first eight times, but didn't work the first eight times, but I'm going to do it one more time. I I'm going to do it one more time. I I'm going to do it one more time. I think it's going to work. I'm I know I'm think it's going to work. I'm I know I'm think it's going to work. I'm I know I'm going to win the lottery this time going to win the lottery this time going to win the lottery this time because I got the right. That's how we because I got the right. That's how we because I got the right. That's how we think. But he had that real ability to think. But he had that real ability to think. But he had that real ability to first of all to be humble before these first of all to be humble before these first of all to be humble before these other things he didn't know about other things he didn't know about other things he didn't know about technology, understand that he didn't technology, understand that he didn't technology, understand that he didn't understand, but he could understand it understand, but he could understand it understand, but he could understand it in his own way. And he did over and in his own way. And he did over and in his own way. And he did over and over. The Mongols were excellent at over. The Mongols were excellent at over. The Mongols were excellent at putting together new things in new ways putting together new things in new ways putting together new things in new ways and using them against their enemies.

and using them against their enemies. and using them against their enemies. >> So >> So >> So rapid extreme continued innovation. So rapid extreme continued innovation. So rapid extreme continued innovation. So you couple that with a you couple that with a you couple that with a I mean you have to say a revolutionary I mean you have to say a revolutionary I mean you have to say a revolutionary idea that promotion idea that promotion idea that promotion uh should be based on merit. That idea uh should be based on merit. That idea uh should be based on merit. That idea combined with the innovative approach to combined with the innovative approach to combined with the innovative approach to to the military is uh it just feeds on to the military is uh it just feeds on to the military is uh it just feeds on itself because the people who are itself because the people who are itself because the people who are learning from their mistakes and learning from their mistakes and learning from their mistakes and constantly improving are the ones that constantly improving are the ones that constantly improving are the ones that get promoted in the positions of power get promoted in the positions of power get promoted in the positions of power and then they inspire everybody else to and then they inspire everybody else to and then they inspire everybody else to do the same. And so it's just if every do the same. And so it's just if every do the same. And so it's just if every action is judged based on the excellence action is judged based on the excellence action is judged based on the excellence of that action then over time repeated of that action then over time repeated of that action then over time repeated iteration in war creates a more and more iteration in war creates a more and more iteration in war creates a more and more powerful army. powerful army. powerful army. >> Yes. Yes. And they were able to do that >> Yes. Yes. And they were able to do that >> Yes. Yes. And they were able to do that for three generations to create an army for three generations to create an army for three generations to create an army that was ever expanding, ever changing that was ever expanding, ever changing that was ever expanding, ever changing its tactics and its technology. And they its tactics and its technology. And they its tactics and its technology. And they got worse at it over time. But Chingis got worse at it over time. But Chingis got worse at it over time. But Chingis Han was the one who innovated it. He was Han was the one who innovated it. He was Han was the one who innovated it. He was the best with it. And uh he used it the best with it. And uh he used it the best with it. And uh he used it throughout his lifetime and he was throughout his lifetime and he was throughout his lifetime and he was getting better over his lifetime with getting better over his lifetime with getting better over his lifetime with using foreign information, foreign using foreign information, foreign using foreign information, foreign technology, foreign ideas. Uh technology, foreign ideas. Uh technology, foreign ideas. Uh he just had a genius for that.

he just had a genius for that. he just had a genius for that. >> If we can go back to the horses, you >> If we can go back to the horses, you >> If we can go back to the horses, you mentioned every soldier had five horses. mentioned every soldier had five horses. mentioned every soldier had five horses. The reason for that is the horses get The reason for that is the horses get The reason for that is the horses get tired. tired. tired. >> Yes. And so you can cover a lot of >> Yes. And so you can cover a lot of >> Yes. And so you can cover a lot of ground in a single day. ground in a single day. ground in a single day. >> Yes. Usually the way the rotation of the >> Yes. Usually the way the rotation of the >> Yes. Usually the way the rotation of the horses would the horse would usually horses would the horse would usually horses would the horse would usually ride for one day and then rest for the ride for one day and then rest for the ride for one day and then rest for the next uh four to five days and then next uh four to five days and then next uh four to five days and then another horse would be riding the next another horse would be riding the next another horse would be riding the next day. One way to measure it is that later day. One way to measure it is that later day. One way to measure it is that later at the time of the death of a good the at the time of the death of a good the at the time of the death of a good the word went from Mongolia to Hungary in uh word went from Mongolia to Hungary in uh word went from Mongolia to Hungary in uh 6 weeks. 6 weeks. 6 weeks. >> Mongolia to Hungary in six weeks. Mhm. >> Mongolia to Hungary in six weeks. Mhm. >> Mongolia to Hungary in six weeks. Mhm. >> So let's just imagine this army that's >> So let's just imagine this army that's >> So let's just imagine this army that's able to move at such high speeds, able to move at such high speeds, able to move at such high speeds, >> does not need to follow roads >> does not need to follow roads >> does not need to follow roads >> because it's used to riding in the open >> because it's used to riding in the open >> because it's used to riding in the open step. step. step. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> So it can do all kinds of dynamic >> So it can do all kinds of dynamic >> So it can do all kinds of dynamic movements in encircling a place. movements in encircling a place. movements in encircling a place. >> And then also one of the other famous >> And then also one of the other famous >> And then also one of the other famous things is the faint retreat that was things is the faint retreat that was things is the faint retreat that was used continuously. Can you explain how used continuously. Can you explain how used continuously. Can you explain how that worked? The Mongols did not fight that worked? The Mongols did not fight that worked? The Mongols did not fight for honor the way we often think of for honor the way we often think of for honor the way we often think of brave soldiers Achilles and the Iliad brave soldiers Achilles and the Iliad brave soldiers Achilles and the Iliad and things like that. They fought for and things like that. They fought for and things like that. They fought for victory. That was the one thing. So to victory. That was the one thing. So to victory. That was the one thing. So to retreat to save lives and all there's no retreat to save lives and all there's no retreat to save lives and all there's no shame in that. So the Mongols would shame in that. So the Mongols would shame in that. So the Mongols would often retreat and Chinghan basically he often retreat and Chinghan basically he often retreat and Chinghan basically he himself never fought a battle that he himself never fought a battle that he himself never fought a battle that he thought he could lose. and he won every thought he could lose. and he won every thought he could lose. and he won every battle he fought. That wasn't true for

battle he fought. That wasn't true for battle he fought. That wasn't true for every general under him as we said for every general under him as we said for every general under him as we said for Shigi Hutuk for example, but he won Shigi Hutuk for example, but he won Shigi Hutuk for example, but he won every battle because there was no shame every battle because there was no shame every battle because there was no shame in retreating and in not fighting, not in retreating and in not fighting, not in retreating and in not fighting, not engaging the enemy. However, that also engaging the enemy. However, that also engaging the enemy. However, that also becomes a tactic and that they would becomes a tactic and that they would becomes a tactic and that they would send in a small group of soldiers to send in a small group of soldiers to send in a small group of soldiers to attack and the Mongols were able to fire attack and the Mongols were able to fire attack and the Mongols were able to fire of course going forward on the horse. of course going forward on the horse. of course going forward on the horse. They were able to then act like they They were able to then act like they They were able to then act like they were defeated and turn, but they could were defeated and turn, but they could were defeated and turn, but they could still fire backwards, which was the still fire backwards, which was the still fire backwards, which was the Parthion shot, which is unusual in the Parthion shot, which is unusual in the Parthion shot, which is unusual in the world. Not totally unique, but unusual world. Not totally unique, but unusual world. Not totally unique, but unusual to fire backwards. But the Mongols also to fire backwards. But the Mongols also to fire backwards. But the Mongols also could lean down and fire under the neck could lean down and fire under the neck could lean down and fire under the neck of the horse. So they're protected. They of the horse. So they're protected. They of the horse. So they're protected. They had many different ways. So they're had many different ways. So they're had many different ways. So they're firing coming, they're firing going, but firing coming, they're firing going, but firing coming, they're firing going, but usually the soldiers who are against usually the soldiers who are against usually the soldiers who are against them would break ranks to chase them. them would break ranks to chase them. them would break ranks to chase them. They want to go, they want to get their They want to go, they want to get their They want to go, they want to get their weapons, they want to kill the Mongols. weapons, they want to kill the Mongols. weapons, they want to kill the Mongols. And if they didn't immediately break And if they didn't immediately break And if they didn't immediately break ranks, the Mongols would often start ranks, the Mongols would often start ranks, the Mongols would often start throwing things out like loot from some throwing things out like loot from some throwing things out like loot from some place and valuables around. And the place and valuables around. And the place and valuables around. And the soldiers usually couldn't resist it. So soldiers usually couldn't resist it. So soldiers usually couldn't resist it. So they'd come chasing out after the they'd come chasing out after the they'd come chasing out after the Mongols, sort of pale metal, going in Mongols, sort of pale metal, going in Mongols, sort of pale metal, going in every different direction. And then they every different direction. And then they every different direction. And then they would get to a certain point and from would get to a certain point and from would get to a certain point and from behind the two hills the Mongol army behind the two hills the Mongol army behind the two hills the Mongol army would come and slaughter them. Over and would come and slaughter them. Over and would come and slaughter them. Over and over this tactic worked. It's like the over this tactic worked. It's like the over this tactic worked. It's like the one with the water. I'm thinking the one with the water. I'm thinking the one with the water. I'm thinking the people how can they not know this is people how can they not know this is people how can they not know this is what the Mongols are doing? How can they

what the Mongols are doing? How can they what the Mongols are doing? How can they not know that? not know that? not know that? >> Human nature. There is something that >> Human nature. There is something that >> Human nature. There is something that when the forces are retreating, when the forces are retreating, when the forces are retreating, >> you want to follow them. You want to >> you want to follow them. You want to >> you want to follow them. You want to follow them. You can't help it. follow them. You can't help it. follow them. You can't help it. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> I don't know what that is. That's maybe >> I don't know what that is. That's maybe >> I don't know what that is. That's maybe the animalistic, but take that with the the animalistic, but take that with the the animalistic, but take that with the ability at high speeds for the Mongols ability at high speeds for the Mongols ability at high speeds for the Mongols to encircle and attack the flanks. to encircle and attack the flanks. to encircle and attack the flanks. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Which >> Which >> Which there has been many great military there has been many great military there has been many great military historians who have written about the historians who have written about the historians who have written about the great military forces throughout great military forces throughout great military forces throughout history. And uh one of the things you history. And uh one of the things you history. And uh one of the things you write about and in general is the the write about and in general is the the write about and in general is the the Mongols don't get don't get written Mongols don't get don't get written Mongols don't get don't get written about almost at all and don't get credit about almost at all and don't get credit about almost at all and don't get credit for um for the military tactics and the for um for the military tactics and the for um for the military tactics and the military genius exhibited through the military genius exhibited through the military genius exhibited through the different strategies. This kind of idea different strategies. This kind of idea different strategies. This kind of idea of the fain retreat and then attacking of the fain retreat and then attacking of the fain retreat and then attacking the flanks. the flanks. the flanks. >> Yes, >> Yes, >> Yes, >> that's you know been if not invented and >> that's you know been if not invented and >> that's you know been if not invented and perfected by the uh by Jenis. He really perfected by the uh by Jenis. He really perfected by the uh by Jenis. He really was a military genius. But there were was a military genius. But there were was a military genius. But there were other things too. You know, they didn't other things too. You know, they didn't other things too. You know, they didn't like roads.

like roads. like roads. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> You know, they just didn't like the >> You know, they just didn't like the >> You know, they just didn't like the roads. So, they would often be coming roads. So, they would often be coming roads. So, they would often be coming from some direction that nobody ever from some direction that nobody ever from some direction that nobody ever came from. And the people would be came from. And the people would be came from. And the people would be unprepared for that. Uh the most famous unprepared for that. Uh the most famous unprepared for that. Uh the most famous example is probably in in Bkara. Uh this example is probably in in Bkara. Uh this example is probably in in Bkara. Uh this is a beautiful, wonderful old city, is a beautiful, wonderful old city, is a beautiful, wonderful old city, great place in the world to this day. great place in the world to this day. great place in the world to this day. And they came across the desert. And they came across the desert. And they came across the desert. Well, nobody had ever attacked across Well, nobody had ever attacked across Well, nobody had ever attacked across the desert. So people see dust coming the desert. So people see dust coming the desert. So people see dust coming they think well caravan they don't even they think well caravan they don't even they think well caravan they don't even know what's going on but it was the know what's going on but it was the know what's going on but it was the direction that was a surprise element in direction that was a surprise element in direction that was a surprise element in that particular case. So he was able to that particular case. So he was able to that particular case. So he was able to think in ways that the other people were think in ways that the other people were think in ways that the other people were not thinking and to be able to surprise not thinking and to be able to surprise not thinking and to be able to surprise them. them. them. >> What do you think it again felt like to >> What do you think it again felt like to >> What do you think it again felt like to have this Mongol armada the horses? have this Mongol armada the horses? have this Mongol armada the horses? It must have the growl must shake when It must have the growl must shake when It must have the growl must shake when you have that many horses. What do you you have that many horses. What do you you have that many horses. What do you think it feels like to be in a town when think it feels like to be in a town when think it feels like to be in a town when Jenghis Khan is approaching? Jenghis Khan is approaching? Jenghis Khan is approaching? >> I think that terror was one of the >> I think that terror was one of the >> I think that terror was one of the greatest weapons that he had that he greatest weapons that he had that he greatest weapons that he had that he cultivated this reputation of ferocity.

cultivated this reputation of ferocity. cultivated this reputation of ferocity. Not only did he win battles, but he in Not only did he win battles, but he in Not only did he win battles, but he in he didn't allow people to write about he didn't allow people to write about he didn't allow people to write about him as we said, but he encouraged him as we said, but he encouraged him as we said, but he encouraged refugees. said when he conquered a city, refugees. said when he conquered a city, refugees. said when he conquered a city, he always made sure there are plenty of he always made sure there are plenty of he always made sure there are plenty of refugees to go to the next city because refugees to go to the next city because refugees to go to the next city because it's going to weaken them. It's going to it's going to weaken them. It's going to it's going to weaken them. It's going to weaken their their food supply and weaken their their food supply and weaken their their food supply and they're going to terrorize the people they're going to terrorize the people they're going to terrorize the people with tales of the millions of people with tales of the millions of people with tales of the millions of people that the Mongols killed with their steel that the Mongols killed with their steel that the Mongols killed with their steel chisel teeth and eating children and all chisel teeth and eating children and all chisel teeth and eating children and all kinds of horrible tales. Chenasan kinds of horrible tales. Chenasan kinds of horrible tales. Chenasan encouraged it. You know, this is encouraged it. You know, this is encouraged it. You know, this is propaganda. It's terrorism of a mental propaganda. It's terrorism of a mental propaganda. It's terrorism of a mental sort to weaken the enemy. And so when sort to weaken the enemy. And so when sort to weaken the enemy. And so when you hear or even if you know they're you hear or even if you know they're you hear or even if you know they're coming, you see the dust, you hear the coming, you see the dust, you hear the coming, you see the dust, you hear the the the kind of roar that comes with all the the kind of roar that comes with all the the kind of roar that comes with all those horses and the trembling of the those horses and the trembling of the those horses and the trembling of the earth, it must have been truly earth, it must have been truly earth, it must have been truly terrifying. terrifying. terrifying. >> So the psychological warfare was was a >> So the psychological warfare was was a >> So the psychological warfare was was a was a part of the whole process. But as was a part of the whole process. But as was a part of the whole process. But as I understand um there was always an I understand um there was always an I understand um there was always an offer for the towns and the territories offer for the towns and the territories offer for the towns and the territories being attacked for them to surrender being attacked for them to surrender being attacked for them to surrender peacefully without the loss of life.

peacefully without the loss of life. peacefully without the loss of life. >> Yes. And the alternative would be the >> Yes. And the alternative would be the >> Yes. And the alternative would be the near complete loss of life. near complete loss of life. near complete loss of life. >> Can you speak to that? >> Can you speak to that? >> Can you speak to that? >> Chenghazan had a precise system. >> Chenghazan had a precise system. >> Chenghazan had a precise system. Exactly. He sent in envoys first to Exactly. He sent in envoys first to Exactly. He sent in envoys first to explain to the people a little bit about explain to the people a little bit about explain to the people a little bit about the Mongols already was much was known. the Mongols already was much was known. the Mongols already was much was known. But to explain to them that if they But to explain to them that if they But to explain to them that if they surrendered all the lives would be surrendered all the lives would be surrendered all the lives would be spared and they could continue in their spared and they could continue in their spared and they could continue in their professions. It's just that now the professions. It's just that now the professions. It's just that now the rulers would be the Mongols. they would rulers would be the Mongols. they would rulers would be the Mongols. they would have to pay the taxes and used it be the have to pay the taxes and used it be the have to pay the taxes and used it be the same taxes they'd paid before, but now same taxes they'd paid before, but now same taxes they'd paid before, but now they would go to the Mongols. That was they would go to the Mongols. That was they would go to the Mongols. That was kind of the general system. And because kind of the general system. And because kind of the general system. And because you only have a 100,000 soldiers, you you only have a 100,000 soldiers, you you only have a 100,000 soldiers, you can't leave a detachment there, you can't leave a detachment there, you can't leave a detachment there, you know. So, you're going to leave the know. So, you're going to leave the know. So, you're going to leave the local people in charge to run their local people in charge to run their local people in charge to run their country or their city or their area the country or their city or their area the country or their city or their area the way they have done in the past. He was way they have done in the past. He was way they have done in the past. He was absolutely faithful to that. In one absolutely faithful to that. In one absolutely faithful to that. In one episode in the north of Persia, modern episode in the north of Persia, modern episode in the north of Persia, modern Iran, his son-in-law, Togar, he violated Iran, his son-in-law, Togar, he violated Iran, his son-in-law, Togar, he violated that and was stealing and looting from that and was stealing and looting from that and was stealing and looting from the people who had surrendered.

the people who had surrendered. the people who had surrendered. Changingan called him in and he stripped Changingan called him in and he stripped Changingan called him in and he stripped him of his rank and he said, "The next him of his rank and he said, "The next him of his rank and he said, "The next city, you go first city, you go first city, you go first as a common soldier." And of course, he as a common soldier." And of course, he as a common soldier." And of course, he was killed in the next battle. I don't was killed in the next battle. I don't was killed in the next battle. I don't know the name of the daughter, know the name of the daughter, know the name of the daughter, unfortunately. I've tried to figure that unfortunately. I've tried to figure that unfortunately. I've tried to figure that out. But anyway, it was a close relative out. But anyway, it was a close relative out. But anyway, it was a close relative to him and he was killed in the next vi to him and he was killed in the next vi to him and he was killed in the next vi violating this law. So that was the law. violating this law. So that was the law. violating this law. So that was the law. So then if the city fought and the So then if the city fought and the So then if the city fought and the Mongols won, they did not kill everyone. Mongols won, they did not kill everyone. Mongols won, they did not kill everyone. What they did was they killed all the What they did was they killed all the What they did was they killed all the leaders. They felt like the elite had leaders. They felt like the elite had leaders. They felt like the elite had not served them well and they usually not served them well and they usually not served them well and they usually killed the army because they couldn't killed the army because they couldn't killed the army because they couldn't incorporate the army into their own. The incorporate the army into their own. The incorporate the army into their own. The army had failed. But the one thing that army had failed. But the one thing that army had failed. But the one thing that they valued were all the artisans. they valued were all the artisans. they valued were all the artisans. everybody who had a skill. And that everybody who had a skill. And that everybody who had a skill. And that skill could be making a pot. It can be skill could be making a pot. It can be skill could be making a pot. It can be hammering out a metal plate. It can be hammering out a metal plate. It can be hammering out a metal plate. It can be weaving carpets. It can be translating weaving carpets. It can be translating weaving carpets. It can be translating or just reading and writing. Every or just reading and writing. Every or just reading and writing. Every person with a skill was spared.

person with a skill was spared. person with a skill was spared. So the killing of the people who were So the killing of the people who were So the killing of the people who were defeated wasn't so severe. What was defeated wasn't so severe. What was defeated wasn't so severe. What was truly severe was if you surrendered, truly severe was if you surrendered, truly severe was if you surrendered, and many of them did, and then they knew and many of them did, and then they knew and many of them did, and then they knew they would not be harmed. So they're not they would not be harmed. So they're not they would not be harmed. So they're not harmed. The Mongols go on. The Mongols harmed. The Mongols go on. The Mongols harmed. The Mongols go on. The Mongols are hundreds of miles away and all. are hundreds of miles away and all. are hundreds of miles away and all. Forget about the Mongols. Check out Hans Forget about the Mongols. Check out Hans Forget about the Mongols. Check out Hans said word that we're supposed to send so said word that we're supposed to send so said word that we're supposed to send so many cows or sheep to help. Forget about many cows or sheep to help. Forget about many cows or sheep to help. Forget about the Mongols. They're far away. It's a the Mongols. They're far away. It's a the Mongols. They're far away. It's a rem. No, he stopped. He returned. He rem. No, he stopped. He returned. He rem. No, he stopped. He returned. He conquered the city and he killed conquered the city and he killed conquered the city and he killed everyone. That's the way it worked. everyone. That's the way it worked. everyone. That's the way it worked. >> So the most drastic slaughter happens >> So the most drastic slaughter happens >> So the most drastic slaughter happens when there's an agreement and there when there's an agreement and there when there's an agreement and there betrayal. betrayal. betrayal. >> Yes. And as it turned out, I would say >> Yes. And as it turned out, I would say >> Yes. And as it turned out, I would say it was more the Middle East or what we it was more the Middle East or what we it was more the Middle East or what we call around Iran and Afghanistan where call around Iran and Afghanistan where call around Iran and Afghanistan where these were the worst cases. And um these were the worst cases. And um these were the worst cases. And um I would say only only in Afghanistan did I would say only only in Afghanistan did I would say only only in Afghanistan did sometimes the emotion of the slaughter sometimes the emotion of the slaughter sometimes the emotion of the slaughter take over in an unfortunate way. But he take over in an unfortunate way. But he take over in an unfortunate way. But he had a a grandson whom he loved very much had a a grandson whom he loved very much had a a grandson whom he loved very much and that grandson traveled with him and and that grandson traveled with him and and that grandson traveled with him and he had the happy childhood that Tamujin he had the happy childhood that Tamujin he had the happy childhood that Tamujin had not had and I think Chingas Hans had not had and I think Chingas Hans had not had and I think Chingas Hans loved that about him. But in loved that about him. But in loved that about him. But in Afghanistan, he was sent off to conquer Afghanistan, he was sent off to conquer Afghanistan, he was sent off to conquer the valley of Bameyan where the great the valley of Bameyan where the great the valley of Bameyan where the great Buddhas are. Actually, he was sent to Buddhas are. Actually, he was sent to Buddhas are. Actually, he was sent to Bameyan and as it says in the Persian Bameyan and as it says in the Persian Bameyan and as it says in the Persian history, you know, the the thumb of fate

history, you know, the the thumb of fate history, you know, the the thumb of fate fired the arrow that shot him down. He fired the arrow that shot him down. He fired the arrow that shot him down. He was killed. was killed. was killed. And for Chingas Han, he had never lost a And for Chingas Han, he had never lost a And for Chingas Han, he had never lost a family member. Not one. none of his family member. Not one. none of his family member. Not one. none of his sons, none of his grandsons in battle. sons, none of his grandsons in battle. sons, none of his grandsons in battle. He had not lost them. And now to lose He had not lost them. And now to lose He had not lost them. And now to lose the most valuable grandson you have, the the most valuable grandson you have, the the most valuable grandson you have, the one that's your pride and joy in so many one that's your pride and joy in so many one that's your pride and joy in so many ways. And so he called the father, his ways. And so he called the father, his ways. And so he called the father, his own son, to him own son, to him own son, to him and did not tell him. They did not and did not tell him. They did not and did not tell him. They did not announce it to the public. And the son announce it to the public. And the son announce it to the public. And the son came and the son didn't know why he was came and the son didn't know why he was came and the son didn't know why he was being summoned. And Chinghan said, being summoned. And Chinghan said, being summoned. And Chinghan said, "You have to tell me that you will not "You have to tell me that you will not "You have to tell me that you will not cry or moan when I tell you this, cry or moan when I tell you this, cry or moan when I tell you this, but your son is no more." but your son is no more." but your son is no more." And the father was, "No one was allowed And the father was, "No one was allowed And the father was, "No one was allowed to moan. No one was allowed to cry. No to moan. No one was allowed to cry. No to moan. No one was allowed to cry. No one was allowed to do anything. you just one was allowed to do anything. you just one was allowed to do anything. you just he said make them cry.

he said make them cry. he said make them cry. You know, he came down on the people of You know, he came down on the people of You know, he came down on the people of Afghanistan Afghanistan Afghanistan so harshly so harshly so harshly and it went on for weeks and weeks the and it went on for weeks and weeks the and it went on for weeks and weeks the killing in in Afghanistan killing in in Afghanistan killing in in Afghanistan and then it just kind of wore itself and then it just kind of wore itself and then it just kind of wore itself out. He recognized that he had allowed out. He recognized that he had allowed out. He recognized that he had allowed his emotions to overcome practicality his emotions to overcome practicality his emotions to overcome practicality and the slaughtering of these people and the slaughtering of these people and the slaughtering of these people should stop and so he did. But that's should stop and so he did. But that's should stop and so he did. But that's the only time I know of that he really the only time I know of that he really the only time I know of that he really kind of lost control of his own kind of lost control of his own kind of lost control of his own emotions. emotions. emotions. And it's something we can all And it's something we can all And it's something we can all understand. But his response was truly understand. But his response was truly understand. But his response was truly extreme of we will not cry, we will not extreme of we will not cry, we will not extreme of we will not cry, we will not mourn, they will cry, they will mourn. mourn, they will cry, they will mourn. mourn, they will cry, they will mourn. So that goes against So that goes against So that goes against the cold rational way he approached the cold rational way he approached the cold rational way he approached war which is peace is offered. war which is peace is offered. war which is peace is offered. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> And then betrayal is punished. >> And then betrayal is punished. >> And then betrayal is punished. >> I should add he did not slaughter the >> I should add he did not slaughter the >> I should add he did not slaughter the people into peaceful towns. What people into peaceful towns. What people into peaceful towns. What happened was the killing of the what happened was the killing of the what happened was the killing of the what people thought was the heir and he well people thought was the heir and he well people thought was the heir and he well may have been of Chinghan. The killing may have been of Chinghan. The killing may have been of Chinghan. The killing of him revitalized a lot of people's of him revitalized a lot of people's of him revitalized a lot of people's hopes and a lot of cities revolted. The hopes and a lot of cities revolted. The hopes and a lot of cities revolted. The ones who did not revolt were not killed.

ones who did not revolt were not killed. ones who did not revolt were not killed. But the cities who revolted, he killed But the cities who revolted, he killed But the cities who revolted, he killed them all. There was a mass slaughter. them all. There was a mass slaughter. them all. There was a mass slaughter. >> There are estimates that Jenis Khan and >> There are estimates that Jenis Khan and >> There are estimates that Jenis Khan and his Mongol Empire were responsible for his Mongol Empire were responsible for his Mongol Empire were responsible for an estimated an estimated an estimated 40 million deaths, approximately 10% of 40 million deaths, approximately 10% of 40 million deaths, approximately 10% of the world's population. So to put this the world's population. So to put this the world's population. So to put this number in the perspective of the modern number in the perspective of the modern number in the perspective of the modern day, that would be equivalent to killing day, that would be equivalent to killing day, that would be equivalent to killing about 800 million people in today's about 800 million people in today's about 800 million people in today's population. population. population. So how should we think about the So how should we think about the So how should we think about the brutality of numbers like these? brutality of numbers like these? brutality of numbers like these? >> The number itself is difficult to deal >> The number itself is difficult to deal >> The number itself is difficult to deal with. Millions of people were killed. with. Millions of people were killed. with. Millions of people were killed. For every family that lost someone, For every family that lost someone, For every family that lost someone, it's a total loss. There's no, it it's a total loss. There's no, it it's a total loss. There's no, it doesn't matter what the number is. It's doesn't matter what the number is. It's doesn't matter what the number is. It's a tremendous loss. And there was a tremendous loss. And there was a tremendous loss. And there was tremendous loss of life as in every war. tremendous loss of life as in every war. tremendous loss of life as in every war. I don't think we should judge him any I don't think we should judge him any I don't think we should judge him any differently than other conquerors in differently than other conquerors in differently than other conquerors in history and other countries today that history and other countries today that history and other countries today that fight wars including our own country. If fight wars including our own country. If fight wars including our own country. If we whatever we are willing to permit our we whatever we are willing to permit our we whatever we are willing to permit our country to do uh we should be able to country to do uh we should be able to country to do uh we should be able to understand why Chinghan or the Mongols understand why Chinghan or the Mongols understand why Chinghan or the Mongols did it. You look today in the world, did it. You look today in the world, did it. You look today in the world, people are killing people are killing people are killing children, women, civilians. Every day, children, women, civilians. Every day, children, women, civilians. Every day, every day. And it's always in the name every day. And it's always in the name every day. And it's always in the name of something in the name of peace or in of something in the name of peace or in of something in the name of peace or in the name of God or in the name of our the name of God or in the name of our the name of God or in the name of our nation. There always reasons for the nation. There always reasons for the nation. There always reasons for the killing. And the United States has

killing. And the United States has killing. And the United States has certainly evolved with involved with certainly evolved with involved with certainly evolved with involved with that. supplying the weapons for bombing that. supplying the weapons for bombing that. supplying the weapons for bombing people, invading Afghanistan, invading people, invading Afghanistan, invading people, invading Afghanistan, invading uh fighting in Iraq, fighting in Syria. uh fighting in Iraq, fighting in Syria. uh fighting in Iraq, fighting in Syria. The United States is very involved in The United States is very involved in The United States is very involved in that. And it's always, oh, but we're that. And it's always, oh, but we're that. And it's always, oh, but we're defending democracy and yeah, we brought defending democracy and yeah, we brought defending democracy and yeah, we brought a hell of a lot of democracy to a hell of a lot of democracy to a hell of a lot of democracy to Afghanistan. Afghanistan. Afghanistan. We killed a lot of people. You can even look back to World War II, You can even look back to World War II, our great moment of democracy and our great moment of democracy and our great moment of democracy and bringing freedom and democracy to bringing freedom and democracy to bringing freedom and democracy to Germans. We dropped atomic bombs on Germans. We dropped atomic bombs on Germans. We dropped atomic bombs on Hiroshima Nagasaki. Those were not Hiroshima Nagasaki. Those were not Hiroshima Nagasaki. Those were not military targets. We were not doing military targets. We were not doing military targets. We were not doing anything strategic against the country anything strategic against the country anything strategic against the country other than terrorizing the country by other than terrorizing the country by other than terrorizing the country by killing women and children. That's killing women and children. That's killing women and children. That's America. That's us. My father fought in America. That's us. My father fought in America. That's us. My father fought in that war. In fact, he fought in all. He that war. In fact, he fought in all. He that war. In fact, he fought in all. He fought in Vietnam. He fought in that fought in Vietnam. He fought in that fought in Vietnam. He fought in that war. And he fought in Korea. war. And he fought in Korea. war. And he fought in Korea. And he was a good American. I mean, And he was a good American. I mean, And he was a good American. I mean, there was nothing wrong with it. And I'm there was nothing wrong with it. And I'm there was nothing wrong with it. And I'm not I don't even condemn America, but not I don't even condemn America, but not I don't even condemn America, but I'm saying how can we condemn one set of I'm saying how can we condemn one set of I'm saying how can we condemn one set of people for doing it and then excuse it people for doing it and then excuse it people for doing it and then excuse it in ourselves. But we tend to do that. We in ourselves. But we tend to do that. We in ourselves. But we tend to do that. We especially barbarian people, people from especially barbarian people, people from especially barbarian people, people from step for example, we tend to demonize step for example, we tend to demonize step for example, we tend to demonize them or any enemy we have, we tend to them or any enemy we have, we tend to them or any enemy we have, we tend to demonize them.

demonize them. demonize them. >> You said a lot of interesting things >> You said a lot of interesting things >> You said a lot of interesting things there. So one is just the very nature of there. So one is just the very nature of there. So one is just the very nature of war that war is hell. that sometimes things like dropping the that sometimes things like dropping the the atomic bomb which is an act of the atomic bomb which is an act of the atomic bomb which is an act of essentially terror in the same style as essentially terror in the same style as essentially terror in the same style as Jenghaskhan Jenghaskhan Jenghaskhan uh in an attempt to prevent further uh in an attempt to prevent further uh in an attempt to prevent further war. It's a justification. People are war. It's a justification. People are war. It's a justification. People are always fighting for peace. Always always fighting for peace. Always always fighting for peace. Always fighting for peace. World War I was to fighting for peace. World War I was to fighting for peace. World War I was to make the world safe for democracy and make the world safe for democracy and make the world safe for democracy and peace and then World War II. But what peace and then World War II. But what peace and then World War II. But what happened? We went to war in Korea. We happened? We went to war in Korea. We happened? We went to war in Korea. We went to war in Vietnam. We bombed went to war in Vietnam. We bombed went to war in Vietnam. We bombed Cambodia. We bombed Laos. We bombed Cambodia. We bombed Laos. We bombed Cambodia. We bombed Laos. We bombed Afghanistan. We bombed Syria. Uh we Afghanistan. We bombed Syria. Uh we Afghanistan. We bombed Syria. Uh we bombed Iraq. We're always fighting for, bombed Iraq. We're always fighting for, bombed Iraq. We're always fighting for, you know, and I'm not a pacifist. I am you know, and I'm not a pacifist. I am you know, and I'm not a pacifist. I am not. I grew up surrounded with soldiers not. I grew up surrounded with soldiers not. I grew up surrounded with soldiers and I am not a pacifist, but I try to be and I am not a pacifist, but I try to be and I am not a pacifist, but I try to be a realist that all nations kill.

a realist that all nations kill. a realist that all nations kill. It happens everywhere. So, can we It happens everywhere. So, can we It happens everywhere. So, can we universally also then in the way you're universally also then in the way you're universally also then in the way you're passionately criticizing wars of the passionately criticizing wars of the passionately criticizing wars of the 20th century, can we also criticize 20th century, can we also criticize 20th century, can we also criticize Jenghis Khan and Alexander the Great and Jenghis Khan and Alexander the Great and Jenghis Khan and Alexander the Great and the wars fought by Caesar and others in the wars fought by Caesar and others in the wars fought by Caesar and others in the Roman Empire that they're the Roman Empire that they're the Roman Empire that they're essentially essentially essentially wars of conquest. wars of conquest. wars of conquest. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> And in some human way were not necessary >> And in some human way were not necessary >> And in some human way were not necessary or were not defensive. They're just part or were not defensive. They're just part or were not defensive. They're just part of this human drive to expand, to of this human drive to expand, to of this human drive to expand, to explore, and to accumulate power. Maybe explore, and to accumulate power. Maybe explore, and to accumulate power. Maybe this is a good place to also talk about this is a good place to also talk about this is a good place to also talk about somebody I respect a lot, Dan Carlin of somebody I respect a lot, Dan Carlin of somebody I respect a lot, Dan Carlin of uh Hardcore History Podcast. He did an uh Hardcore History Podcast. He did an uh Hardcore History Podcast. He did an amazing series on Jenis Khan and the amazing series on Jenis Khan and the amazing series on Jenis Khan and the Mongols called Wrath of the Cons. I Mongols called Wrath of the Cons. I Mongols called Wrath of the Cons. I recommend people go listen to it. Um so recommend people go listen to it. Um so recommend people go listen to it. Um so he had a lot of interesting ideas there. he had a lot of interesting ideas there. he had a lot of interesting ideas there. One of them he presented the idea of One of them he presented the idea of One of them he presented the idea of historical historical historical arsonists. So referring to figures who arsonists. So referring to figures who arsonists. So referring to figures who cause immense destruction but also pave cause immense destruction but also pave cause immense destruction but also pave the way for new developments and the way for new developments and the way for new developments and progress. Um basically making this progress. Um basically making this progress. Um basically making this complicated case that destruction often complicated case that destruction often complicated case that destruction often in history paves the way for progress.

in history paves the way for progress. in history paves the way for progress. So what do you think about this idea? So what do you think about this idea? So what do you think about this idea? >> Creative destruction. It certainly works >> Creative destruction. It certainly works >> Creative destruction. It certainly works in some aspects of life even with in some aspects of life even with in some aspects of life even with ourselves. For example, if we can ourselves. For example, if we can ourselves. For example, if we can creatively destroy some of our habits creatively destroy some of our habits creatively destroy some of our habits and build new ones, it sometimes works. and build new ones, it sometimes works. and build new ones, it sometimes works. or or we can destroy relationships that or or we can destroy relationships that or or we can destroy relationships that we're in uh in order to create new ones. we're in uh in order to create new ones. we're in uh in order to create new ones. It can work when you start applying it It can work when you start applying it It can work when you start applying it to world history. It it does become a to world history. It it does become a to world history. It it does become a little bit more difficult. I certainly little bit more difficult. I certainly little bit more difficult. I certainly think that these episodes create great think that these episodes create great think that these episodes create great changes. You can see great changes that changes. You can see great changes that changes. You can see great changes that happen because of the Mongol Empire. happen because of the Mongol Empire. happen because of the Mongol Empire. Now whether or not that's a good reason Now whether or not that's a good reason Now whether or not that's a good reason for the Mongol Empire having happened, for the Mongol Empire having happened, for the Mongol Empire having happened, it seems like a bit of a stretch for me. it seems like a bit of a stretch for me. it seems like a bit of a stretch for me. You know the the Mongols helped to unify You know the the Mongols helped to unify You know the the Mongols helped to unify many countries. You can think Korea had many countries. You can think Korea had many countries. You can think Korea had been three basically kingdoms pushed been three basically kingdoms pushed been three basically kingdoms pushed them together. Everything that you see them together. Everything that you see them together. Everything that you see in China today was a part of the Mongol in China today was a part of the Mongol in China today was a part of the Mongol Empire. They put together North China, Empire. They put together North China, Empire. They put together North China, South China, uh, Tibet, Manuria and, uh, South China, uh, Tibet, Manuria and, uh, South China, uh, Tibet, Manuria and, uh, it was a little bit larger under the it was a little bit larger under the it was a little bit larger under the Mongols. Even Russia with so many little Mongols. Even Russia with so many little Mongols. Even Russia with so many little kingdoms and duchies and dukedoms and kingdoms and duchies and dukedoms and kingdoms and duchies and dukedoms and the center had been into Ukraine and in the center had been into Ukraine and in the center had been into Ukraine and in Kiev and they shifted the focus out of Kiev and they shifted the focus out of Kiev and they shifted the focus out of Ukraine and more towards into what we Ukraine and more towards into what we Ukraine and more towards into what we call Russia now and they began the call Russia now and they began the call Russia now and they began the process of the unification. It had a process of the unification. It had a process of the unification. It had a great impact on the country. So in a way great impact on the country. So in a way great impact on the country. So in a way it's a new creation. Yes, it does arrive it's a new creation. Yes, it does arrive it's a new creation. Yes, it does arrive out of the destruction. But also, I out of the destruction. But also, I out of the destruction. But also, I think we need to look where does the

think we need to look where does the think we need to look where does the destruction come from? And it often destruction come from? And it often destruction come from? And it often comes because the powers around them comes because the powers around them comes because the powers around them have been so debilitated and so have been so debilitated and so have been so debilitated and so corrupted and so decayed of their own corrupted and so decayed of their own corrupted and so decayed of their own lack of moral fiber that it was easy to lack of moral fiber that it was easy to lack of moral fiber that it was easy to conquer them. Case of Kublakhan finally conquer them. Case of Kublakhan finally conquer them. Case of Kublakhan finally conquered all of China. He was conquered all of China. He was conquered all of China. He was conquering a decayed conquering a decayed conquering a decayed dynasty. When the Mongols conquered dynasty. When the Mongols conquered dynasty. When the Mongols conquered Baghdad and overthrew the caiff, they Baghdad and overthrew the caiff, they Baghdad and overthrew the caiff, they were conquering a very decayed were conquering a very decayed were conquering a very decayed institution. institution. institution. No one likes war, and I certainly don't No one likes war, and I certainly don't No one likes war, and I certainly don't like war, but I'm not 100% against it. I like war, but I'm not 100% against it. I like war, but I'm not 100% against it. I think that there are times uh think that there are times uh think that there are times uh that people are going to do it for their that people are going to do it for their that people are going to do it for their own protection if nothing else or their own protection if nothing else or their own protection if nothing else or their of their family and it's justified in of their family and it's justified in of their family and it's justified in that sense to themselves. It may not be that sense to themselves. It may not be that sense to themselves. It may not be justified in a world sense, but I just I justified in a world sense, but I just I justified in a world sense, but I just I just make the case for being tolerant of just make the case for being tolerant of just make the case for being tolerant of what the Mongols did if we can tolerate what the Mongols did if we can tolerate what the Mongols did if we can tolerate what the Americans did. And I am what the Americans did. And I am what the Americans did. And I am American true and true. There's no American true and true. There's no American true and true. There's no question about that. But we overlook all question about that. But we overlook all question about that. But we overlook all of our things that we did. Now, it's of our things that we did. Now, it's of our things that we did. Now, it's interesting. For example, in in interesting. For example, in in interesting. For example, in in Afghanistan, we were there for some 20 Afghanistan, we were there for some 20 Afghanistan, we were there for some 20 years. We had made the Taliban stronger years. We had made the Taliban stronger years. We had made the Taliban stronger before when they were fighting against before when they were fighting against before when they were fighting against the Russians and then we kicked them out the Russians and then we kicked them out the Russians and then we kicked them out and then they kicked us out. But some of and then they kicked us out. But some of and then they kicked us out. But some of the Taliban leaders are from the Jadran the Taliban leaders are from the Jadran the Taliban leaders are from the Jadran clan, the descended from Jamuk family, clan, the descended from Jamuk family, clan, the descended from Jamuk family, from his clan. This is what I mean when

from his clan. This is what I mean when from his clan. This is what I mean when I say that the ramifications from that I say that the ramifications from that I say that the ramifications from that time are still with us and we don't even time are still with us and we don't even time are still with us and we don't even see it. And when when Saddam Hussein see it. And when when Saddam Hussein see it. And when when Saddam Hussein went on television for the last time in went on television for the last time in went on television for the last time in Iraq to plead with his people, he said, Iraq to plead with his people, he said, Iraq to plead with his people, he said, "The Mongols, meaning the Americans, the "The Mongols, meaning the Americans, the "The Mongols, meaning the Americans, the Mongols have returned. The Mongols have Mongols have returned. The Mongols have Mongols have returned. The Mongols have returned." And he said, "The Americans returned." And he said, "The Americans returned." And he said, "The Americans are just the new M." And are just the new M." And are just the new M." And I can see it. I don't accept it, but I I can see it. I don't accept it, but I I can see it. I don't accept it, but I can see how people think. If we can be can see how people think. If we can be can see how people think. If we can be honest with ourselves and strip away our honest with ourselves and strip away our honest with ourselves and strip away our own lies about ourselves, then perhaps own lies about ourselves, then perhaps own lies about ourselves, then perhaps we will be more ethical in our dealings we will be more ethical in our dealings we will be more ethical in our dealings with other people. Uh and and there's with other people. Uh and and there's with other people. Uh and and there's effects that you could talk about. I effects that you could talk about. I effects that you could talk about. I mean, the unification of China, Mongols mean, the unification of China, Mongols mean, the unification of China, Mongols or otherwise, is a very important step or otherwise, is a very important step or otherwise, is a very important step in the history of China uh that in the history of China uh that in the history of China uh that permeates to to today. And then there's permeates to to today. And then there's permeates to to today. And then there's a lot of stuff that we'll talk about the a lot of stuff that we'll talk about the a lot of stuff that we'll talk about the ideas of religious freedom, the the ideas of religious freedom, the the ideas of religious freedom, the the postal network, the the trade routes, postal network, the the trade routes, postal network, the the trade routes, all of this. There's a lot of all of this. There's a lot of all of this. There's a lot of progressive consequences of the Mongol progressive consequences of the Mongol progressive consequences of the Mongol um conquest in the Mongol Empire. We'll um conquest in the Mongol Empire. We'll um conquest in the Mongol Empire. We'll talk about that, but let's linger on the talk about that, but let's linger on the talk about that, but let's linger on the on the heavier topic for a little bit on the heavier topic for a little bit on the heavier topic for a little bit longer. Like we were talking about Dan longer. Like we were talking about Dan longer. Like we were talking about Dan Carlin. He was uh critical of your work Carlin. He was uh critical of your work Carlin. He was uh critical of your work a little bit, showing it respect, but a little bit, showing it respect, but a little bit, showing it respect, but also a little bit critical as being a also a little bit critical as being a also a little bit critical as being a bit too um bit too um bit too um um emphasizing and focusing

um emphasizing and focusing um emphasizing and focusing a lot on the positive impacts correctly a lot on the positive impacts correctly a lot on the positive impacts correctly and accurately, but not giving enough and accurately, but not giving enough and accurately, but not giving enough airtime or describing the the brutality airtime or describing the the brutality airtime or describing the the brutality of the killing, the the hell that is of the killing, the the hell that is of the killing, the the hell that is war. So can can you understand his war. So can can you understand his war. So can can you understand his criticism? criticism? criticism? >> Guilty. >> Guilty. >> Guilty. >> I'm guilty. >> I'm guilty. >> I'm guilty. >> Steel man. >> Steel man. >> Steel man. >> Carl is a very smart man. I respect him >> Carl is a very smart man. I respect him >> Carl is a very smart man. I respect him very much and I like him tremendously. very much and I like him tremendously. very much and I like him tremendously. And and and he's right. But that is not And and and he's right. But that is not And and and he's right. But that is not what I want to stress. It's not that I what I want to stress. It's not that I what I want to stress. It's not that I want to deny the the killing. It's not want to deny the the killing. It's not want to deny the the killing. It's not that I want to deny the warfare, but that I want to deny the warfare, but that I want to deny the warfare, but that's pretty much the same everywhere that's pretty much the same everywhere that's pretty much the same everywhere in the world. And how much do we need to in the world. And how much do we need to in the world. And how much do we need to say about say about say about how the wall was broken down, how this how the wall was broken down, how this how the wall was broken down, how this unit was defeated and all? No, it's what unit was defeated and all? No, it's what unit was defeated and all? No, it's what comes afterwards. You know, just as the comes afterwards. You know, just as the comes afterwards. You know, just as the story of our life begins far earlier story of our life begins far earlier story of our life begins far earlier than we are born, the story of our life than we are born, the story of our life than we are born, the story of our life goes on for a long time afterwards. If goes on for a long time afterwards. If goes on for a long time afterwards. If you have a nation of 1 million people you have a nation of 1 million people you have a nation of 1 million people and you are ruling over hundreds of and you are ruling over hundreds of and you are ruling over hundreds of millions of people, hundreds of millions millions of people, hundreds of millions millions of people, hundreds of millions of people, China, Russia, the Middle of people, China, Russia, the Middle of people, China, Russia, the Middle East, you do not do that through East, you do not do that through East, you do not do that through warfare. You conquer them initially warfare. You conquer them initially warfare. You conquer them initially through warfare, but you do not rule through warfare, but you do not rule through warfare, but you do not rule them through warfare. You've got to be them through warfare. You've got to be them through warfare. You've got to be offering something that they want, offering something that they want, offering something that they want, something that they like. and all the something that they like. and all the something that they like. and all the things you you've mentioned from the the things you you've mentioned from the the things you you've mentioned from the the trading system, the postal system, the trading system, the postal system, the trading system, the postal system, the religious freedom, the rights of women, religious freedom, the rights of women, religious freedom, the rights of women, the rights of minorities, these were

the rights of minorities, these were the rights of minorities, these were things that people responded to. And so things that people responded to. And so things that people responded to. And so the world benefited tremendously the world benefited tremendously the world benefited tremendously from the life of Chingis Han. But all we from the life of Chingis Han. But all we from the life of Chingis Han. But all we want to talk about, and I don't deny it, want to talk about, and I don't deny it, want to talk about, and I don't deny it, is the conquest part. Okay, that's 20 is the conquest part. Okay, that's 20 is the conquest part. Okay, that's 20 years. if it went on for another 150 years. if it went on for another 150 years. if it went on for another 150 years, years, years, there's more to the story than just there's more to the story than just there's more to the story than just conquest. conquest. conquest. >> And uh there is a point that you >> And uh there is a point that you >> And uh there is a point that you correctly identify and you've also correctly identify and you've also correctly identify and you've also written about Native Americans and so on written about Native Americans and so on written about Native Americans and so on that history does seem to be written by that history does seem to be written by that history does seem to be written by the non-barbarians. the non-barbarians. the non-barbarians. But in reality, history is not divided But in reality, history is not divided But in reality, history is not divided in this kind of way. And the barbarians in this kind of way. And the barbarians in this kind of way. And the barbarians are not these crude, brutal, plain, are not these crude, brutal, plain, are not these crude, brutal, plain, simple people. that there is a simple people. that there is a simple people. that there is a sophisticated deep culture within them sophisticated deep culture within them sophisticated deep culture within them as well. as well. as well. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> All the different uh kinds of peoples >> All the different uh kinds of peoples >> All the different uh kinds of peoples that came from the step. that came from the step. that came from the step. >> Yes. I guess if there's one thing that I >> Yes. I guess if there's one thing that I >> Yes. I guess if there's one thing that I try to do in my career of writing, it is try to do in my career of writing, it is try to do in my career of writing, it is to get us to recognize the importance of to get us to recognize the importance of to get us to recognize the importance of tribal people in the history of the tribal people in the history of the tribal people in the history of the world. We tend to have two categories world. We tend to have two categories world. We tend to have two categories for them. They are barbarians who kill for them. They are barbarians who kill for them. They are barbarians who kill people and eat one another. or they're people and eat one another. or they're people and eat one another. or they're victims and we should feel sorry from victims and we should feel sorry from victims and we should feel sorry from them and nostalgic about everything them and nostalgic about everything them and nostalgic about everything about them and maybe wear some of their about them and maybe wear some of their about them and maybe wear some of their beads or some of their clothing to show beads or some of their clothing to show beads or some of their clothing to show how much we sympathize with their how much we sympathize with their how much we sympathize with their suffering. That's the two roles for suffering. That's the two roles for suffering. That's the two roles for tribal people. But I'm trying to show tribal people. But I'm trying to show tribal people. But I'm trying to show them in a different light that they them in a different light that they them in a different light that they conquered. Yes, they were conquerors, conquered. Yes, they were conquerors, conquered. Yes, they were conquerors, but they also created great things in but they also created great things in but they also created great things in the history of the world. and that the

the history of the world. and that the the history of the world. and that the Mongol Empire was really the first Mongol Empire was really the first Mongol Empire was really the first modern empire in the way that I'm modern empire in the way that I'm modern empire in the way that I'm putting together that story and Ching putting together that story and Ching putting together that story and Ching Han was the the genius behind that who Han was the the genius behind that who Han was the the genius behind that who created this in this idea that there created this in this idea that there created this in this idea that there could be one world in which there would could be one world in which there would could be one world in which there would be one set of supreme law but all people be one set of supreme law but all people be one set of supreme law but all people could follow their own law. You could could follow their own law. You could could follow their own law. You could have any religion you wanted, but have any religion you wanted, but have any religion you wanted, but ultimately you had to obey kind of the ultimately you had to obey kind of the ultimately you had to obey kind of the great ethics of the sky. And there were great ethics of the sky. And there were great ethics of the sky. And there were things like that about his vision things like that about his vision things like that about his vision that I think very few people in history that I think very few people in history that I think very few people in history had a vision. And I look around the had a vision. And I look around the had a vision. And I look around the world today and in my lifetime world today and in my lifetime world today and in my lifetime since uh the time of Roosevelt's death, since uh the time of Roosevelt's death, since uh the time of Roosevelt's death, I look around, I don't see much vision. I look around, I don't see much vision. I look around, I don't see much vision. I see lots of slogans, lots of talks, I see lots of slogans, lots of talks, I see lots of slogans, lots of talks, policy papers. Oh my god, we can produce policy papers. Oh my god, we can produce policy papers. Oh my god, we can produce it. it. it. Where is the vision? It's always we're Where is the vision? It's always we're Where is the vision? It's always we're going to have peace and we're going to going to have peace and we're going to going to have peace and we're going to have a better life and you know, vote have a better life and you know, vote have a better life and you know, vote for me or vote for my party and we're for me or vote for my party and we're for me or vote for my party and we're we're really for the people and we're we're really for the people and we're we're really for the people and we're what the heck are they talking about?

what the heck are they talking about? what the heck are they talking about? There is no vision there. So what is There is no vision there. So what is There is no vision there. So what is this country? What should this country this country? What should this country this country? What should this country be? What is this world? How should we be? What is this world? How should we be? What is this world? How should we No, no vision. Well, those figures, I No, no vision. Well, those figures, I No, no vision. Well, those figures, I mean, they're rare through history. The mean, they're rare through history. The mean, they're rare through history. The legendary figures that come along that legendary figures that come along that legendary figures that come along that have vision, but are able to have vision, but are able to have vision, but are able to uh capture the public imagination and uh capture the public imagination and uh capture the public imagination and heart and mind with the vision, but also heart and mind with the vision, but also heart and mind with the vision, but also have the skill have the skill have the skill >> to uh execute and implement it and all >> to uh execute and implement it and all >> to uh execute and implement it and all of those things combined and of those things combined and of those things combined and >> have the mental fortitude not to be >> have the mental fortitude not to be >> have the mental fortitude not to be corrupted by success along the way. All corrupted by success along the way. All corrupted by success along the way. All of those things of those things of those things >> that's very rare in history. >> that's very rare in history. >> that's very rare in history. >> And when they come along, they change >> And when they come along, they change >> And when they come along, they change the direction of history. If if we could the direction of history. If if we could the direction of history. If if we could linger on some of these linger on some of these linger on some of these world defining ideas, religious freedom world defining ideas, religious freedom world defining ideas, religious freedom is it's just surprising and incredible is it's just surprising and incredible is it's just surprising and incredible that Jangghaskhan was able to enforce that Jangghaskhan was able to enforce that Jangghaskhan was able to enforce uh inspire the value of religious uh inspire the value of religious uh inspire the value of religious freedom throughout all of these freedom throughout all of these freedom throughout all of these disperate lands for whom religion was a disperate lands for whom religion was a disperate lands for whom religion was a very powerful force. So can you speak to very powerful force. So can you speak to very powerful force. So can you speak to that? Some empires in history and some that? Some empires in history and some that? Some empires in history and some rulers have been tolerant of various rulers have been tolerant of various rulers have been tolerant of various groups. I mean Rome to some extent was groups. I mean Rome to some extent was groups. I mean Rome to some extent was reasonably tolerant of different sects reasonably tolerant of different sects reasonably tolerant of different sects and religions. Not of the Christians but and religions. Not of the Christians but and religions. Not of the Christians but reasonably. But what happened with reasonably. But what happened with reasonably. But what happened with Chinghan?

Chinghan? Chinghan? The first campaign he had outside of The first campaign he had outside of The first campaign he had outside of Mongolia was for the weaguer people who Mongolia was for the weaguer people who Mongolia was for the weaguer people who lived in western China. They at that lived in western China. They at that lived in western China. They at that time were being ruled by actually we had time were being ruled by actually we had time were being ruled by actually we had mentioned before the Nimon King Tayang mentioned before the Nimon King Tayang mentioned before the Nimon King Tayang Han. uh his son Gutsluk had fled uh no Han. uh his son Gutsluk had fled uh no Han. uh his son Gutsluk had fled uh no good worthless good worthless good worthless well son but Gutslook had fled into uh well son but Gutslook had fled into uh well son but Gutslook had fled into uh what is today the the area around uh uh what is today the the area around uh uh what is today the the area around uh uh Kyrgystan and they ruled over the Kyrgystan and they ruled over the Kyrgystan and they ruled over the weaguer people. He had been a Christian. weaguer people. He had been a Christian. weaguer people. He had been a Christian. The the Nimon had been a Christian tribe The the Nimon had been a Christian tribe The the Nimon had been a Christian tribe but he converted to Buddhism. Well, his but he converted to Buddhism. Well, his but he converted to Buddhism. Well, his subjects were Muslim and he outlawed the subjects were Muslim and he outlawed the subjects were Muslim and he outlawed the Muslim religion and he made all kinds of Muslim religion and he made all kinds of Muslim religion and he made all kinds of things happen. So the weakers sent a things happen. So the weakers sent a things happen. So the weakers sent a delegation to Chingghaskhan. delegation to Chingghaskhan. delegation to Chingghaskhan. At this time they all they knew that the At this time they all they knew that the At this time they all they knew that the emperors of China were too weak to emperors of China were too weak to emperors of China were too weak to protect them. So they sent delegation to protect them. So they sent delegation to protect them. So they sent delegation to Chingghaskhan and ask him to come and Chingghaskhan and ask him to come and Chingghaskhan and ask him to come and save them from him. And he did. He sent save them from him. And he did. He sent save them from him. And he did. He sent down a detachment. He didn't actually go down a detachment. He didn't actually go down a detachment. He didn't actually go himself. He sent detachment down there. himself. He sent detachment down there. himself. He sent detachment down there. They drove Goodook from power. Goodook They drove Goodook from power. Goodook They drove Goodook from power. Goodook fred down towards uh Pakistan in that fred down towards uh Pakistan in that fred down towards uh Pakistan in that direction. They caught up with him. They direction. They caught up with him. They direction. They caught up with him. They killed him. That's that's what the killed him. That's that's what the killed him. That's that's what the Mongols did, you know. And then Chingis Mongols did, you know. And then Chingis Mongols did, you know. And then Chingis Han made the first law that he ever made Han made the first law that he ever made Han made the first law that he ever made for people outside of Mongolia. So up to for people outside of Mongolia. So up to for people outside of Mongolia. So up to this point it's been tribal law. And he this point it's been tribal law. And he this point it's been tribal law. And he saw as we had mentioned before that for saw as we had mentioned before that for saw as we had mentioned before that for the tribes were mostly fighting over the tribes were mostly fighting over the tribes were mostly fighting over women. So you outlaw the kidnapping of women. So you outlaw the kidnapping of women. So you outlaw the kidnapping of women. You outlaw the sale of women and women. You outlaw the sale of women and women. You outlaw the sale of women and you cut down on a lot of the feuding.

you cut down on a lot of the feuding. you cut down on a lot of the feuding. But he saw that civilized quote unquote But he saw that civilized quote unquote But he saw that civilized quote unquote people fought a lot over religion. They people fought a lot over religion. They people fought a lot over religion. They weren't fighting over women. They fight weren't fighting over women. They fight weren't fighting over women. They fight over religion. And so he made the law. over religion. And so he made the law. over religion. And so he made the law. Now this was very interesting. We talk Now this was very interesting. We talk Now this was very interesting. We talk about religious freedom. Religious about religious freedom. Religious about religious freedom. Religious freedom comes in many forms. One form is freedom comes in many forms. One form is freedom comes in many forms. One form is to allow institutions to allow institutions to allow institutions to do what they want. So we're going to to do what they want. So we're going to to do what they want. So we're going to allow the the the Mormons and the allow the the the Mormons and the allow the the the Mormons and the Catholics and the Jews and the Muslims Catholics and the Jews and the Muslims Catholics and the Jews and the Muslims each to do what they want in the each to do what they want in the each to do what they want in the organized churches that they have. His organized churches that they have. His organized churches that they have. His law was not that. It presumed that. It law was not that. It presumed that. It law was not that. It presumed that. It allowed that. But he said every person allowed that. But he said every person allowed that. But he said every person has the right to choose their religion. has the right to choose their religion. has the right to choose their religion. No one can stop them. No one can force No one can stop them. No one can force No one can stop them. No one can force them. The idea that it was individual them. The idea that it was individual them. The idea that it was individual choice. No one in history had ever choice. No one in history had ever choice. No one in history had ever thought of that. That it belonged to the thought of that. That it belonged to the thought of that. That it belonged to the person. person. person. >> I mean that's a really really powerful >> I mean that's a really really powerful >> I mean that's a really really powerful statement. Yes. statement. Yes. statement. Yes. >> That alone I mean that's why you talk >> That alone I mean that's why you talk >> That alone I mean that's why you talk about Thomas Jefferson being deeply about Thomas Jefferson being deeply about Thomas Jefferson being deeply inspired by Jenis Khan. That inspired by Jenis Khan. That inspired by Jenis Khan. That >> religious freedom. Yes. of the >> religious freedom. Yes. of the >> religious freedom. Yes. of the individual. But it's like such a individual. But it's like such a individual. But it's like such a powerful powerful powerful illustration manifestation of just illustration manifestation of just illustration manifestation of just individual freedom period.

individual freedom period. individual freedom period. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> If if you in the in in the world in >> If if you in the in in the world in >> If if you in the in in the world in history are allowed to practice any history are allowed to practice any history are allowed to practice any religion you want, religion you want, religion you want, that's uh I mean that is like one of the that's uh I mean that is like one of the that's uh I mean that is like one of the uh biggest way to say that the uh biggest way to say that the uh biggest way to say that the individual is fundamentally free in the individual is fundamentally free in the individual is fundamentally free in the society. society. society. >> Yes. It was a great source of power for >> Yes. It was a great source of power for >> Yes. It was a great source of power for him also. You know, I don't say that he him also. You know, I don't say that he him also. You know, I don't say that he did this because of some ideological did this because of some ideological did this because of some ideological reason. Just like he didn't outlaw the reason. Just like he didn't outlaw the reason. Just like he didn't outlaw the kidnapping of women for ideological kidnapping of women for ideological kidnapping of women for ideological reasons. He didn't come to it through reasons. He didn't come to it through reasons. He didn't come to it through studying ideas of moral right. He came studying ideas of moral right. He came studying ideas of moral right. He came to it through practical experience of to it through practical experience of to it through practical experience of life. His mother was kidnapped. His wife life. His mother was kidnapped. His wife life. His mother was kidnapped. His wife was kidnapped. He knew that that was a was kidnapped. He knew that that was a was kidnapped. He knew that that was a crime against every ethics that you can crime against every ethics that you can crime against every ethics that you can think of and every form of morality. think of and every form of morality. think of and every form of morality. That's why he did it. Not for That's why he did it. Not for That's why he did it. Not for ideological reasons, but practical ideological reasons, but practical ideological reasons, but practical reasons. It hurt people. It hurt people. reasons. It hurt people. It hurt people. reasons. It hurt people. It hurt people. It was the same with religion. He gave It was the same with religion. He gave It was the same with religion. He gave this right to everybody because it was this right to everybody because it was this right to everybody because it was going to be their own personal right to going to be their own personal right to going to be their own personal right to keep them from being hurt. And then that keep them from being hurt. And then that keep them from being hurt. And then that gave him tremendous support from gave him tremendous support from gave him tremendous support from minorities of many types.

minorities of many types. minorities of many types. And so they flocked to him. Minorities And so they flocked to him. Minorities And so they flocked to him. Minorities after that this was a minority effort of after that this was a minority effort of after that this was a minority effort of the Muslim weaguers to come to him. Many the Muslim weaguers to come to him. Many the Muslim weaguers to come to him. Many people flocked to him for the same people flocked to him for the same people flocked to him for the same reason for that kind of religious reason for that kind of religious reason for that kind of religious freedom. So that religious freedom and freedom. So that religious freedom and freedom. So that religious freedom and also the other things you mentioned they also the other things you mentioned they also the other things you mentioned they create a stable society and that allows create a stable society and that allows create a stable society and that allows uh him with a small army to administer a uh him with a small army to administer a uh him with a small army to administer a large empire. large empire. large empire. >> And also I will say on a more more >> And also I will say on a more more >> And also I will say on a more more practical political sort of way of practical political sort of way of practical political sort of way of thinking he recognized the power of thinking he recognized the power of thinking he recognized the power of having a balance of power of like uh having a balance of power of like uh having a balance of power of like uh Shiite and Sunni that both are going to Shiite and Sunni that both are going to Shiite and Sunni that both are going to be allowed equal rights. one is not be allowed equal rights. one is not be allowed equal rights. one is not dominant over the other and Christians dominant over the other and Christians dominant over the other and Christians and Jews they all have well and Jews they all have well and Jews they all have well that keeps the society from fragmenting that keeps the society from fragmenting that keeps the society from fragmenting against him or uniting against him and against him or uniting against him and against him or uniting against him and it's a kind of fragmentation that he's it's a kind of fragmentation that he's it's a kind of fragmentation that he's taken advantage of. I don't think that taken advantage of. I don't think that taken advantage of. I don't think that was his main reason but I do think he was his main reason but I do think he was his main reason but I do think he was quite aware of that that you give was quite aware of that that you give was quite aware of that that you give every religion the right and every religion the right and every religion the right and unfortunately unfortunately unfortunately he the only religion he didn't recognize he the only religion he didn't recognize he the only religion he didn't recognize as a religion was confusionism.

as a religion was confusionism. as a religion was confusionism. He said what do they do you know the He said what do they do you know the He said what do they do you know the towists can do magic on the earth and towists can do magic on the earth and towists can do magic on the earth and they can give people magic formulas and they can give people magic formulas and they can give people magic formulas and to cure or they have all this kind of to cure or they have all this kind of to cure or they have all this kind of stuff going on. Well what did the stuff going on. Well what did the stuff going on. Well what did the confusionist do? So still the people confusionist do? So still the people confusionist do? So still the people could be confusionist that was okay but could be confusionist that was okay but could be confusionist that was okay but he didn't expend all the tax-free rights he didn't expend all the tax-free rights he didn't expend all the tax-free rights see that was another thing he dropped see that was another thing he dropped see that was another thing he dropped all taxes on religious institutions all all taxes on religious institutions all all taxes on religious institutions all types but uh since the confuseness were types but uh since the confuseness were types but uh since the confuseness were not necessarily classified but then of not necessarily classified but then of not necessarily classified but then of course eventually that was that was course eventually that was that was course eventually that was that was abused so much because the religions abused so much because the religions abused so much because the religions were then get everybody to donate were then get everybody to donate were then get everybody to donate property you can still use it you can property you can still use it you can property you can still use it you can still farm your land but it's ours and still farm your land but it's ours and still farm your land but it's ours and now you don't have to pay taxes on it now you don't have to pay taxes on it now you don't have to pay taxes on it you just give us some you just give us some you just give us some you know, got abused, but it started off you know, got abused, but it started off you know, got abused, but it started off as a good idea. as a good idea. as a good idea. >> Um, and and genuinely, as I understand, >> Um, and and genuinely, as I understand, >> Um, and and genuinely, as I understand, maybe you can correct me, maybe you can correct me, maybe you can correct me, of course, there's the practical aspect of course, there's the practical aspect of course, there's the practical aspect of the those those policies, but he of the those those policies, but he of the those those policies, but he himself was just curious about the himself was just curious about the himself was just curious about the different religions as well, uh, as I different religions as well, uh, as I different religions as well, uh, as I understand. So, he never chose any understand. So, he never chose any understand. So, he never chose any religion except the one from which he religion except the one from which he religion except the one from which he >> came I guess. I mean can you describe >> came I guess. I mean can you describe >> came I guess. I mean can you describe what he believed spiritually himself?

what he believed spiritually himself? what he believed spiritually himself? It's interesting you know we said after It's interesting you know we said after It's interesting you know we said after the the death of Shirimon his grandson the the death of Shirimon his grandson the the death of Shirimon his grandson in Bameyan and the slaughter that in Bameyan and the slaughter that in Bameyan and the slaughter that followed that he went through a new followed that he went through a new followed that he went through a new phase in which he summoned religious phase in which he summoned religious phase in which he summoned religious scholars of all sorts of famous Chung scholars of all sorts of famous Chung scholars of all sorts of famous Chung Chang from China whom I despise but Chang from China whom I despise but Chang from China whom I despise but anyway he came and with all of his magic anyway he came and with all of his magic anyway he came and with all of his magic formulas for things and then a bunch of formulas for things and then a bunch of formulas for things and then a bunch of various Muslim leaders came. So Changing various Muslim leaders came. So Changing various Muslim leaders came. So Changing Han was exploring all these different Han was exploring all these different Han was exploring all these different religions and not just in a simple way. religions and not just in a simple way. religions and not just in a simple way. He had organized public lectures from He had organized public lectures from He had organized public lectures from these people and public debates. Not these people and public debates. Not these people and public debates. Not antagon antagonistic debates but antagon antagonistic debates but antagon antagonistic debates but discussions among groups of people who discussions among groups of people who discussions among groups of people who hated each other and would never discuss hated each other and would never discuss hated each other and would never discuss anything. And suddenly this powerful man anything. And suddenly this powerful man anything. And suddenly this powerful man summons him and he has to say okay well summons him and he has to say okay well summons him and he has to say okay well explain your religion and explain yours. explain your religion and explain yours. explain your religion and explain yours. And even in sometimes you can't just And even in sometimes you can't just And even in sometimes you can't just explain it in terms of your own explain it in terms of your own explain it in terms of your own scripture. scripture. scripture. >> What do you say to the people who >> What do you say to the people who >> What do you say to the people who believe it? So he was exploring but no believe it? So he was exploring but no believe it? So he was exploring but no he never changed at all. He was an he never changed at all. He was an he never changed at all. He was an animist. We would say that's about the animist. We would say that's about the animist. We would say that's about the only term we know to use.

only term we know to use. only term we know to use. Early in life he worshiped that mountain Early in life he worshiped that mountain Early in life he worshiped that mountain where he took refuge several times. Bhan where he took refuge several times. Bhan where he took refuge several times. Bhan Haldun. Bhan Haldun was the great refuge Haldun. Bhan Haldun was the great refuge Haldun. Bhan Haldun was the great refuge of his life. He would go to the top. He of his life. He would go to the top. He of his life. He would go to the top. He would pray. He would take off his hat. would pray. He would take off his hat. would pray. He would take off his hat. He would take off his belt. He would He would take off his belt. He would He would take off his belt. He would stand there before the sky and pray. stand there before the sky and pray. stand there before the sky and pray. Also later on actually this became Also later on actually this became Also later on actually this became rather dramatic. He would sometimes go rather dramatic. He would sometimes go rather dramatic. He would sometimes go away to pray should we invade these away to pray should we invade these away to pray should we invade these people. And so all of the subjects are people. And so all of the subjects are people. And so all of the subjects are waiting to hear what's God going to tell waiting to hear what's God going to tell waiting to hear what's God going to tell Chinghan when he goes up the mountain, Chinghan when he goes up the mountain, Chinghan when he goes up the mountain, you know. And so there episodes like you know. And so there episodes like you know. And so there episodes like that, but he was very sincere. But I that, but he was very sincere. But I that, but he was very sincere. But I think what happened, the Mongols have so think what happened, the Mongols have so think what happened, the Mongols have so many spirits in the water, the many spirits in the water, the many spirits in the water, the mountains, everything around them. And mountains, everything around them. And mountains, everything around them. And you have to know them you have to know them you have to know them >> personally and pray to them and know >> personally and pray to them and know >> personally and pray to them and know what they like and don't like and should what they like and don't like and should what they like and don't like and should you sing to them or should you offer you sing to them or should you offer you sing to them or should you offer some milk products or what do you do? some milk products or what do you do? some milk products or what do you do? You have to know them. Well, you get You have to know them. Well, you get You have to know them. Well, you get away from Mongolia and this was a away from Mongolia and this was a away from Mongolia and this was a problem in China. They didn't know the problem in China. They didn't know the problem in China. They didn't know the spirits. spirits. spirits. >> This caused great consternation for the >> This caused great consternation for the >> This caused great consternation for the Mongols. You've got a land here and the Mongols. You've got a land here and the Mongols. You've got a land here and the spirits don't like us. They're hostile spirits don't like us. They're hostile spirits don't like us. They're hostile lands. We don't even know who they are.

lands. We don't even know who they are. lands. We don't even know who they are. We don't know these spirits in China. It We don't know these spirits in China. It We don't know these spirits in China. It took a long time. And so gradually took a long time. And so gradually took a long time. And so gradually Chingghaskhan Chingghaskhan Chingghaskhan he kind of moved from just the spirit of he kind of moved from just the spirit of he kind of moved from just the spirit of the mountain that he worshiped which the mountain that he worshiped which the mountain that he worshiped which remained his main focus of worship his remained his main focus of worship his remained his main focus of worship his whole life. He removed that to the sky. whole life. He removed that to the sky. whole life. He removed that to the sky. That was the one universal spirit. It That was the one universal spirit. It That was the one universal spirit. It was everywhere in the world. The sky was was everywhere in the world. The sky was was everywhere in the world. The sky was the same for every people. And so for the same for every people. And so for the same for every people. And so for the Mongolians in their language, the the Mongolians in their language, the the Mongolians in their language, the word for sky and the word for heaven and word for sky and the word for heaven and word for sky and the word for heaven and the word for God and the word for the word for God and the word for the word for God and the word for weather are all the same. Tenure tener weather are all the same. Tenure tener weather are all the same. Tenure tener and so or or in the case of the eternal and so or or in the case of the eternal and so or or in the case of the eternal sky when they're talking about it in a sky when they're talking about it in a sky when they're talking about it in a religious terms, the eternal blue sky. religious terms, the eternal blue sky. religious terms, the eternal blue sky. Uh so he he became more universalistic Uh so he he became more universalistic Uh so he he became more universalistic in this animist vision of the world. And in this animist vision of the world. And in this animist vision of the world. And so then the sky could embrace all so then the sky could embrace all so then the sky could embrace all religions, all religions. And all people religions, all religions. And all people religions, all religions. And all people were trying to attain the same form of were trying to attain the same form of were trying to attain the same form of enlightenment. Well, enlightenment is enlightenment. Well, enlightenment is enlightenment. Well, enlightenment is too specific a word, but the same form too specific a word, but the same form too specific a word, but the same form of moral life and guidance from the sky.

of moral life and guidance from the sky. of moral life and guidance from the sky. He felt that each person He felt that each person He felt that each person knew morality. Each person could knew morality. Each person could knew morality. Each person could communicate a no morality within communicate a no morality within communicate a no morality within themselves. They didn't have to just be themselves. They didn't have to just be themselves. They didn't have to just be taught it by somebody from a book. And taught it by somebody from a book. And taught it by somebody from a book. And in fact as one of his uh grandson in fact as one of his uh grandson in fact as one of his uh grandson Monkhan said you know you people talking Monkhan said you know you people talking Monkhan said you know you people talking to all the others to the Christians the to all the others to the Christians the to all the others to the Christians the Jews the the Muslims the the Dowists and Jews the the Muslims the the Dowists and Jews the the Muslims the the Dowists and said you people have your scriptures and said you people have your scriptures and said you people have your scriptures and you don't live by them we have our you don't live by them we have our you don't live by them we have our spirits and our shamans and our drums spirits and our shamans and our drums spirits and our shamans and our drums and we live by them and I think it's and we live by them and I think it's and we live by them and I think it's true. It's just as throughout this true. It's just as throughout this true. It's just as throughout this conversation, it's just blowing my mind conversation, it's just blowing my mind conversation, it's just blowing my mind that the the kid from the Mongol step that the the kid from the Mongol step that the the kid from the Mongol step that lost everything, right? Lost just that lost everything, right? Lost just that lost everything, right? Lost just had the hardest of lives is is now, had the hardest of lives is is now, had the hardest of lives is is now, yes, a military yes, a military yes, a military genius, genius, genius, but also this kind of sage type but also this kind of sage type but also this kind of sage type character to understand the value of character to understand the value of character to understand the value of religious freedom. I mean, there is a religious freedom. I mean, there is a religious freedom. I mean, there is a cynical way to see all these things cuz cynical way to see all these things cuz cynical way to see all these things cuz he he did awfully a lot of things that he he did awfully a lot of things that he he did awfully a lot of things that look like he's a feminist.

look like he's a feminist. look like he's a feminist. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And you're saying, well, the cynical way >> And you're saying, well, the cynical way >> And you're saying, well, the cynical way to see that is what he saw the value of to see that is what he saw the value of to see that is what he saw the value of promoting women in positions of power promoting women in positions of power promoting women in positions of power because they create a more stable because they create a more stable because they create a more stable society and you know, there's less power society and you know, there's less power society and you know, there's less power struggles, all that. But the reality is struggles, all that. But the reality is struggles, all that. But the reality is >> there's a lot of things that look >> there's a lot of things that look >> there's a lot of things that look awfully progressive about the things awfully progressive about the things awfully progressive about the things he's implemented and they stayed. I'm he's implemented and they stayed. I'm he's implemented and they stayed. I'm not trying to say it in modern terms, not trying to say it in modern terms, not trying to say it in modern terms, right? You know, when you have one right? You know, when you have one right? You know, when you have one million people, you've got to use million people, you've got to use million people, you've got to use everyone and the men are fighting. And everyone and the men are fighting. And everyone and the men are fighting. And so he left women to administer a lot of so he left women to administer a lot of so he left women to administer a lot of things inside the country, the economy things inside the country, the economy things inside the country, the economy in particular. And then in in some of in particular. And then in in some of in particular. And then in in some of the ancillary Turk kingdoms around the the ancillary Turk kingdoms around the the ancillary Turk kingdoms around the Mongols such as the Angut, the Harle and Mongols such as the Angut, the Harle and Mongols such as the Angut, the Harle and different Mong and the Weaguer even were different Mong and the Weaguer even were different Mong and the Weaguer even were administered by his daughters primarily. administered by his daughters primarily. administered by his daughters primarily. and then his his wives were in charge of and then his his wives were in charge of and then his his wives were in charge of administering the land of Mongolia administering the land of Mongolia administering the land of Mongolia itself and handling the economy. So he itself and handling the economy. So he itself and handling the economy. So he was using the women but uh in a very was using the women but uh in a very was using the women but uh in a very practical way but it wasn't necessarily practical way but it wasn't necessarily practical way but it wasn't necessarily in our ideological way. I think it's the in our ideological way. I think it's the in our ideological way. I think it's the same with the environment. I'm not same with the environment. I'm not same with the environment. I'm not trying to say he was an environmentalist trying to say he was an environmentalist trying to say he was an environmentalist in our modern way but he passed very in our modern way but he passed very in our modern way but he passed very strict laws about the use of water and strict laws about the use of water and strict laws about the use of water and also about not using water that you also about not using water that you also about not using water that you couldn't move water into an area to couldn't move water into an area to couldn't move water into an area to irrigate it that was violating the earth irrigate it that was violating the earth irrigate it that was violating the earth and violating the water. So they think a and violating the water. So they think a and violating the water. So they think a lot of the historians they think the lot of the historians they think the lot of the historians they think the Mongols are so stupid they let the Mongols are so stupid they let the Mongols are so stupid they let the irrigation system be destroyed. No, it irrigation system be destroyed. No, it irrigation system be destroyed. No, it takes more work to destroy an irrigation takes more work to destroy an irrigation takes more work to destroy an irrigation system than it does to create it. They

system than it does to create it. They system than it does to create it. They destroyed those systems out of a policy destroyed those systems out of a policy destroyed those systems out of a policy and that was this is going to return to and that was this is going to return to and that was this is going to return to pasture land. pasture land. pasture land. This lasted Kublakhan was the one who This lasted Kublakhan was the one who This lasted Kublakhan was the one who changed that actually and then started changed that actually and then started changed that actually and then started allowing for more irrigation and the allowing for more irrigation and the allowing for more irrigation and the movement of water and things. But but movement of water and things. But but movement of water and things. But but Chinghan we can't use these modern terms Chinghan we can't use these modern terms Chinghan we can't use these modern terms of uh like a human rights crusader or of uh like a human rights crusader or of uh like a human rights crusader or that I'm trying to say he's a the that I'm trying to say he's a the that I'm trying to say he's a the democrat the modern sense or democrat the modern sense or democrat the modern sense or environmentalist or a feminist but all environmentalist or a feminist but all environmentalist or a feminist but all of this was a part of it. Another part of this was a part of it. Another part of this was a part of it. Another part was the protection of envoys. He said, was the protection of envoys. He said, was the protection of envoys. He said, "Every envoy, every ambassador, every "Every envoy, every ambassador, every "Every envoy, every ambassador, every messenger messenger messenger is protected from arrest, from torture, is protected from arrest, from torture, is protected from arrest, from torture, and from killing. And if you kill and from killing. And if you kill and from killing. And if you kill one of ours, we will wipe you out." one of ours, we will wipe you out." one of ours, we will wipe you out." And in 1240, that was the destruction of And in 1240, that was the destruction of And in 1240, that was the destruction of Kiev. I mean, this is after Chinghan Kiev. I mean, this is after Chinghan Kiev. I mean, this is after Chinghan already. You know this a good dehan his already. You know this a good dehan his already. You know this a good dehan his son the happy happy drunk a goodhan's son the happy happy drunk a goodhan's son the happy happy drunk a goodhan's army had come there under subai great army had come there under subai great army had come there under subai great great great the greatest general in the great great the greatest general in the great great the greatest general in the history of the world I would say subadai history of the world I would say subadai history of the world I would say subadai person who's not subai was jingis khan person who's not subai was jingis khan person who's not subai was jingis khan who for the military part he was the who for the military part he was the who for the military part he was the greatest strategist for organizing greatest strategist for organizing greatest strategist for organizing everything together but the military everything together but the military everything together but the military part was subadai so subadai had been part was subadai so subadai had been part was subadai so subadai had been there and they sent in an ambassador who there and they sent in an ambassador who there and they sent in an ambassador who happened to be a woman now some of the happened to be a woman now some of the happened to be a woman now some of the western sources say a daughter of western sources say a daughter of western sources say a daughter of chingishan I have no evidence of that chingishan I have no evidence of that chingishan I have no evidence of that and I don't quite believe it, but maybe and I don't quite believe it, but maybe and I don't quite believe it, but maybe she was kin to him or something. Some she was kin to him or something. Some she was kin to him or something. Some say she was a daughter of Shingan.

say she was a daughter of Shingan. say she was a daughter of Shingan. Others say she was a witch. The people Others say she was a witch. The people Others say she was a witch. The people of Kiev decided she was a witch and of Kiev decided she was a witch and of Kiev decided she was a witch and killed her. killed her. killed her. Okay, that's it. That's it. Kiev was Okay, that's it. That's it. Kiev was Okay, that's it. That's it. Kiev was destroyed for killing a Mongol envoy. destroyed for killing a Mongol envoy. destroyed for killing a Mongol envoy. >> The envoy is a method of communication. >> The envoy is a method of communication. >> The envoy is a method of communication. Yes. Yes. Yes. >> In diplomacy. >> In diplomacy. >> In diplomacy. >> Yes. And so if you destroy that method >> Yes. And so if you destroy that method >> Yes. And so if you destroy that method of communication or disrespected of communication or disrespected of communication or disrespected >> in any way. >> in any way. >> in any way. >> Exactly. >> Exactly. >> Exactly. >> And that sends a signal to everybody >> And that sends a signal to everybody >> And that sends a signal to everybody else. Yes. Send an envoy, you respect else. Yes. Send an envoy, you respect else. Yes. Send an envoy, you respect it. it. it. >> That's why these these plans I say that >> That's why these these plans I say that >> That's why these these plans I say that the making of the modern world most of the making of the modern world most of the making of the modern world most of the ideas have we accept the idea. We the ideas have we accept the idea. We the ideas have we accept the idea. We don't do the practice. All of us accept don't do the practice. All of us accept don't do the practice. All of us accept today diplomatic freedom. Diplomats are today diplomatic freedom. Diplomats are today diplomatic freedom. Diplomats are killed around the world yearly. We killed around the world yearly. We killed around the world yearly. We accept the idea of female equality and accept the idea of female equality and accept the idea of female equality and emancipation of every way. But in fact, emancipation of every way. But in fact, emancipation of every way. But in fact, they're enslaved in many parts of the they're enslaved in many parts of the they're enslaved in many parts of the world today. Uh we we accept the idea of world today. Uh we we accept the idea of world today. Uh we we accept the idea of religious freedom. Oh, but not those religious freedom. Oh, but not those religious freedom. Oh, but not those people. That's not theirs isn't good. people. That's not theirs isn't good. people. That's not theirs isn't good. Their religion isn't right. But but our Their religion isn't right. But but our Their religion isn't right. But but our religion, we will tolerate them, but religion, we will tolerate them, but religion, we will tolerate them, but they got to be more like No, we only say they got to be more like No, we only say they got to be more like No, we only say these things, but the world still hasn't these things, but the world still hasn't these things, but the world still hasn't achieved some. And he did achieve these achieved some. And he did achieve these achieved some. And he did achieve these within his empire in his time. He within his empire in his time. He within his empire in his time. He achieved those. So one of the things achieved those. So one of the things achieved those. So one of the things we've mentioned but I I think is really we've mentioned but I I think is really we've mentioned but I I think is really really fascinating and maybe an really fascinating and maybe an really fascinating and maybe an immeasurable impact uh that Jenaskhan immeasurable impact uh that Jenaskhan immeasurable impact uh that Jenaskhan had is on trade and uh you know you had is on trade and uh you know you had is on trade and uh you know you could say a lot of stuff but basically

could say a lot of stuff but basically could say a lot of stuff but basically establishing a unified trade network establishing a unified trade network establishing a unified trade network that spanned I don't know how many that spanned I don't know how many that spanned I don't know how many thousands of kilometers thousands of kilometers thousands of kilometers uh and there's a lot of interesting uh and there's a lot of interesting uh and there's a lot of interesting things that were done to enable that things that were done to enable that things that were done to enable that trade. One is providing uh safety and trade. One is providing uh safety and trade. One is providing uh safety and security of not just the envoys like we security of not just the envoys like we security of not just the envoys like we mentioned for communication in the mentioned for communication in the mentioned for communication in the military context but for the merchants. military context but for the merchants. military context but for the merchants. Can you speak to the what Jangghaskhan Can you speak to the what Jangghaskhan Can you speak to the what Jangghaskhan did for the trade network connected to did for the trade network connected to did for the trade network connected to the Silk Road as an example? the Silk Road as an example? the Silk Road as an example? >> Nomads in general are are interested in >> Nomads in general are are interested in >> Nomads in general are are interested in trade and throughout most of history trade and throughout most of history trade and throughout most of history they have been the traders who carried they have been the traders who carried they have been the traders who carried the goods from one city to another, one the goods from one city to another, one the goods from one city to another, one oasis to another. And so the Mongols oasis to another. And so the Mongols oasis to another. And so the Mongols were also extremely interested and were also extremely interested and were also extremely interested and extremely dependent. They could create extremely dependent. They could create extremely dependent. They could create very little in their home country. They very little in their home country. They very little in their home country. They couldn't grow hardly anything and they couldn't grow hardly anything and they couldn't grow hardly anything and they didn't have the technological skills for didn't have the technological skills for didn't have the technological skills for most of the crafts. So they're very most of the crafts. So they're very most of the crafts. So they're very dependent on trade. dependent on trade. dependent on trade. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Well, they raised the status of >> Well, they raised the status of >> Well, they raised the status of merchants very high. This was merchants very high. This was merchants very high. This was particularly a problem in the Chinese particularly a problem in the Chinese particularly a problem in the Chinese world. It wasn't so much in the world. It wasn't so much in the world. It wasn't so much in the Christian or the or the Muslim world, Christian or the or the Muslim world, Christian or the or the Muslim world, but certainly in the Chinese world where but certainly in the Chinese world where but certainly in the Chinese world where merchants were considered extremely low.

merchants were considered extremely low. merchants were considered extremely low. And all of a sudden, he raises them up And all of a sudden, he raises them up And all of a sudden, he raises them up above scholars. They're going to have above scholars. They're going to have above scholars. They're going to have certain rights. For example, they get to certain rights. For example, they get to certain rights. For example, they get to be taxed one time. Whatever the national be taxed one time. Whatever the national be taxed one time. Whatever the national tax is, that's it. They're not taxed tax is, that's it. They're not taxed tax is, that's it. They're not taxed every time they stop in some new town. every time they stop in some new town. every time they stop in some new town. And he he created a set of uh what we And he he created a set of uh what we And he he created a set of uh what we would call rest houses or or um would call rest houses or or um would call rest houses or or um recuperation centers where they could recuperation centers where they could recuperation centers where they could get fresh horses, get fresh horses, get fresh horses, they could get food, they could deposit they could get food, they could deposit they could get food, they could deposit their money and get paper receipts that their money and get paper receipts that their money and get paper receipts that could be used anywhere in the empire. could be used anywhere in the empire. could be used anywhere in the empire. They were guaranteed protection. if they They were guaranteed protection. if they They were guaranteed protection. if they had to pass through an area where it had to pass through an area where it had to pass through an area where it might be dangerous, then uh a small might be dangerous, then uh a small might be dangerous, then uh a small group, a squad of men and uh horses group, a squad of men and uh horses group, a squad of men and uh horses would go with them. So trade was would go with them. So trade was would go with them. So trade was extremely important. And then the extremely important. And then the extremely important. And then the Mongols, they also they supported trade Mongols, they also they supported trade Mongols, they also they supported trade in a very odd way and that is the in a very odd way and that is the in a very odd way and that is the merchants would come in and they would merchants would come in and they would merchants would come in and they would ask for an outrageous price for some ask for an outrageous price for some ask for an outrageous price for some goods, you know, much more than they goods, you know, much more than they goods, you know, much more than they should get, waiting for the Mongols to should get, waiting for the Mongols to should get, waiting for the Mongols to bargain them down.

bargain them down. bargain them down. And the mongals would say, "I'll give And the mongals would say, "I'll give And the mongals would say, "I'll give you much more than that." It was his and you much more than that." It was his and you much more than that." It was his and his grandson or his son Alehan was once his grandson or his son Alehan was once his grandson or his son Alehan was once asked, "Why do you do that? You got to asked, "Why do you do that? You got to asked, "Why do you do that? You got to stop doing this." This was a a Muslim stop doing this." This was a a Muslim stop doing this." This was a a Muslim financial advisor. He had called in. financial advisor. He had called in. financial advisor. He had called in. They told him, "Well, you've got to stop They told him, "Well, you've got to stop They told him, "Well, you've got to stop paying more than people ask." And then paying more than people ask." And then paying more than people ask." And then Okod said, "Where's the money going to Okod said, "Where's the money going to Okod said, "Where's the money going to go? It's still in my empire. It's going go? It's still in my empire. It's going go? It's still in my empire. It's going to come back eventually." you know and to come back eventually." you know and to come back eventually." you know and so they had a much different attitude so they had a much different attitude so they had a much different attitude with great respect and I think a symbol with great respect and I think a symbol with great respect and I think a symbol of that is in the time of Kublacon when of that is in the time of Kublacon when of that is in the time of Kublacon when we see that his uncle and father went to we see that his uncle and father went to we see that his uncle and father went to China and came back from China and then China and came back from China and then China and came back from China and then on the second trip Marco Polo went with on the second trip Marco Polo went with on the second trip Marco Polo went with him to China and back they were safe the him to China and back they were safe the him to China and back they were safe the whole way their goods were safe they whole way their goods were safe they whole way their goods were safe they came back with tremendous amount of came back with tremendous amount of came back with tremendous amount of wealth they were never harassed and the wealth they were never harassed and the wealth they were never harassed and the mere fact that they could cross it took mere fact that they could cross it took mere fact that they could cross it took two years but the mere fact that they two years but the mere fact that they two years but the mere fact that they could cross the whole continent could cross the whole continent could cross the whole continent safely and come back. That was safely and come back. That was safely and come back. That was unprecedented. We really don't have any unprecedented. We really don't have any unprecedented. We really don't have any welldocumented case of anybody say from welldocumented case of anybody say from welldocumented case of anybody say from China visiting Europe or Europe visiting China visiting Europe or Europe visiting China visiting Europe or Europe visiting China before the Mongols. But since China before the Mongols. But since China before the Mongols. But since Jingask Khan, there's never been a year Jingask Khan, there's never been a year Jingask Khan, there's never been a year without contact between east and west.

without contact between east and west. without contact between east and west. It was permanent. Once he created it, it It was permanent. Once he created it, it It was permanent. Once he created it, it was permanent. was permanent. was permanent. >> I don't think it's possible to measure >> I don't think it's possible to measure >> I don't think it's possible to measure the positive impact of that because it the positive impact of that because it the positive impact of that because it wasn't just trade of goods. It was also wasn't just trade of goods. It was also wasn't just trade of goods. It was also exchange exchange exchange explicit or implicit along the way. explicit or implicit along the way. explicit or implicit along the way. Exchange of ideas whether that's Exchange of ideas whether that's Exchange of ideas whether that's exchange of technologies, exchange of exchange of technologies, exchange of exchange of technologies, exchange of like philosophical ideas, scientific like philosophical ideas, scientific like philosophical ideas, scientific ideas, ideas, ideas, um technical mathematical ideas, all of um technical mathematical ideas, all of um technical mathematical ideas, all of this spread throughout and constantly this spread throughout and constantly this spread throughout and constantly circulating. circulating. circulating. Um maybe can you speak to that aspect of Um maybe can you speak to that aspect of Um maybe can you speak to that aspect of it? it? it? >> Yes, it was an exchange of ideas on >> Yes, it was an exchange of ideas on >> Yes, it was an exchange of ideas on every level. ideas, technology, uh every level. ideas, technology, uh every level. ideas, technology, uh ideologies, beliefs, scientific ideologies, beliefs, scientific ideologies, beliefs, scientific information, everything was being information, everything was being information, everything was being exchanged includ exchanged includ exchanged includ crops for new areas. But but Jenis Khan, crops for new areas. But but Jenis Khan, crops for new areas. But but Jenis Khan, he had a a part of his genius of he had a a part of his genius of he had a a part of his genius of organization was knowing what skill organization was knowing what skill organization was knowing what skill people had that would contribute towards people had that would contribute towards people had that would contribute towards his empire. For example, the Muslims his empire. For example, the Muslims his empire. For example, the Muslims were very good with arithmetic. In fact, were very good with arithmetic. In fact, were very good with arithmetic. In fact, he conquered the the little empire of he conquered the the little empire of he conquered the the little empire of Horesm from which we get the word Horesm from which we get the word Horesm from which we get the word algorithm because there was a algorithm because there was a algorithm because there was a mathematician there who invented mathematician there who invented mathematician there who invented algorithms. And so belong he conquered algorithms. And so belong he conquered algorithms. And so belong he conquered it very quickly, very easily, no it very quickly, very easily, no it very quickly, very easily, no problem. But it belonged to him. But the problem. But it belonged to him. But the problem. But it belonged to him. But the Muslims were using the zero.

Muslims were using the zero. Muslims were using the zero. >> The Mongols were absolutely impressed >> The Mongols were absolutely impressed >> The Mongols were absolutely impressed with that. The Chinese less so. They're with that. The Chinese less so. They're with that. The Chinese less so. They're very suspicious about the zero. But the very suspicious about the zero. But the very suspicious about the zero. But the Mongols were very impressed because Mongols were very impressed because Mongols were very impressed because herders numbers are important to them herders numbers are important to them herders numbers are important to them for keeping up with their animals. for keeping up with their animals. for keeping up with their animals. In fact, the Mongols have a simple In fact, the Mongols have a simple In fact, the Mongols have a simple system. Uh they reduce all animals to system. Uh they reduce all animals to system. Uh they reduce all animals to the number of horses. You can ask the number of horses. You can ask the number of horses. You can ask somebody how many animals you can have somebody how many animals you can have somebody how many animals you can have and they can say well one 100 horses and and they can say well one 100 horses and and they can say well one 100 horses and it doesn't mean they have 100 horses. it doesn't mean they have 100 horses. it doesn't mean they have 100 horses. It's going to be um like It's going to be um like It's going to be um like uh five cows count as four horses. Five uh five cows count as four horses. Five uh five cows count as four horses. Five sheep or five goats count as one horse, sheep or five goats count as one horse, sheep or five goats count as one horse, you know. Um, four camels count as five you know. Um, four camels count as five you know. Um, four camels count as five horses. So, they reduced it all down horses. So, they reduced it all down horses. So, they reduced it all down like that. The Mongols take a census of like that. The Mongols take a census of like that. The Mongols take a census of everything. And that's one of the first everything. And that's one of the first everything. And that's one of the first things Chinghan did. And that was one of things Chinghan did. And that was one of things Chinghan did. And that was one of the demands he made of every place he the demands he made of every place he the demands he made of every place he went is a complete census of your went is a complete census of your went is a complete census of your people. Uh, and every house had to post people. Uh, and every house had to post people. Uh, and every house had to post outside. How many people, how many outside. How many people, how many outside. How many people, how many animals, what did they do, the animals, what did they do, the animals, what did they do, the occupations, all this information. So occupations, all this information. So occupations, all this information. So they needed good mathematics for this.

they needed good mathematics for this. they needed good mathematics for this. The Muslims provided it. So they took The Muslims provided it. So they took The Muslims provided it. So they took the Muslims to China, these Middle the Muslims to China, these Middle the Muslims to China, these Middle Eastern scholars and all. Unfortunately, Eastern scholars and all. Unfortunately, Eastern scholars and all. Unfortunately, they were rather ruthless sometimes when they were rather ruthless sometimes when they were rather ruthless sometimes when it came to implementing the tax it came to implementing the tax it came to implementing the tax policies, but they became the financial policies, but they became the financial policies, but they became the financial adviserss to him. Uh other groups of adviserss to him. Uh other groups of adviserss to him. Uh other groups of people had other roles like that and he people had other roles like that and he people had other roles like that and he was moving them around constantly. was moving them around constantly. was moving them around constantly. And so you had a combination as I said And so you had a combination as I said And so you had a combination as I said he himself had that genius for combining he himself had that genius for combining he himself had that genius for combining new bits of technology but it created a new bits of technology but it created a new bits of technology but it created a new kind of cultural spirit in which new kind of cultural spirit in which new kind of cultural spirit in which other people were also combining other people were also combining other people were also combining technology at other levels and being technology at other levels and being technology at other levels and being encouraged. It was no longer heresy or encouraged. It was no longer heresy or encouraged. It was no longer heresy or the devil's work to bring in this thing. the devil's work to bring in this thing. the devil's work to bring in this thing. So we had the spread of printing for So we had the spread of printing for So we had the spread of printing for example. We had the partial spread of example. We had the partial spread of example. We had the partial spread of something something such as print money something something such as print money something something such as print money for example. But we had almanacs being for example. But we had almanacs being for example. But we had almanacs being created now through printing that created now through printing that created now through printing that combined different calendars and combined different calendars and combined different calendars and different information that was coming different information that was coming different information that was coming along. But one simple but lethal form of along. But one simple but lethal form of along. But one simple but lethal form of technology was that for example Chinese technology was that for example Chinese technology was that for example Chinese had gunpowder.

had gunpowder. had gunpowder. Mostly it was used for fireworks, Mostly it was used for fireworks, Mostly it was used for fireworks, religious things and then sometimes in religious things and then sometimes in religious things and then sometimes in warfare was used for kind of primitive warfare was used for kind of primitive warfare was used for kind of primitive hand grenade or primitive bomb that hand grenade or primitive bomb that hand grenade or primitive bomb that could be thrown with a trebuche and this could be thrown with a trebuche and this could be thrown with a trebuche and this is in the time of Kubla war the grandson is in the time of Kubla war the grandson is in the time of Kubla war the grandson but so they had that the Middle Eastern but so they had that the Middle Eastern but so they had that the Middle Eastern the Muslims they had and the Byzantines the Muslims they had and the Byzantines the Muslims they had and the Byzantines especially they had uh especially they had uh especially they had uh Napa what we call Greek Greek fire Napa what we call Greek Greek fire Napa what we call Greek Greek fire flamethrowers that could set things on flamethrowers that could set things on flamethrowers that could set things on fire you know the Europeans did not fire you know the Europeans did not fire you know the Europeans did not expel excel very much in technology. expel excel very much in technology. expel excel very much in technology. They were behind in almost everything, They were behind in almost everything, They were behind in almost everything, but they could cast bells for churches. but they could cast bells for churches. but they could cast bells for churches. Okay, let's take that bell and we're Okay, let's take that bell and we're Okay, let's take that bell and we're going to turn it on its side going to turn it on its side going to turn it on its side and we're going to use some principles and we're going to use some principles and we're going to use some principles of the flamethrower of the flamethrower of the flamethrower and we're going to use the gunpowder and we're going to use the gunpowder and we're going to use the gunpowder from China and you've got a cannon. from China and you've got a cannon. from China and you've got a cannon. So the Mongols even early on by the time So the Mongols even early on by the time So the Mongols even early on by the time they got to the siege of Baghdad but not they got to the siege of Baghdad but not they got to the siege of Baghdad but not I think in the lifetime of Chingghaskhan I think in the lifetime of Chingghaskhan I think in the lifetime of Chingghaskhan but soon thereafter and his uh sons and but soon thereafter and his uh sons and but soon thereafter and his uh sons and grandsons they were using some very grandsons they were using some very grandsons they were using some very primitive forms of cannon and uh even primitive forms of cannon and uh even primitive forms of cannon and uh even some some like firing rods. We can't some some like firing rods. We can't some some like firing rods. We can't even call it anything like a rifle but even call it anything like a rifle but even call it anything like a rifle but it could fire a very small uh ballistic it could fire a very small uh ballistic it could fire a very small uh ballistic device and all. So this combination device and all. So this combination device and all. So this combination >> of metal urgy, gunpowder, flamethrowers, >> of metal urgy, gunpowder, flamethrowers, >> of metal urgy, gunpowder, flamethrowers, uh you put it all together and you come uh you put it all together and you come uh you put it all together and you come up with something incredibly different.

up with something incredibly different. up with something incredibly different. >> So if we jump around a little bit sort >> So if we jump around a little bit sort >> So if we jump around a little bit sort of on on the topic of a cannon, what are of on on the topic of a cannon, what are of on on the topic of a cannon, what are some technological developments that uh some technological developments that uh some technological developments that uh Jenis Khan and his son and Kubakai were Jenis Khan and his son and Kubakai were Jenis Khan and his son and Kubakai were using? So how much gunpowder were they using? So how much gunpowder were they using? So how much gunpowder were they using in general? What was their using in general? What was their using in general? What was their approach to siege warfare for example? approach to siege warfare for example? approach to siege warfare for example? What are some different ideas there? What are some different ideas there? What are some different ideas there? >> If we switch to the grandson Kublakhan, >> If we switch to the grandson Kublakhan, >> If we switch to the grandson Kublakhan, he first of all he changed a lot of the he first of all he changed a lot of the he first of all he changed a lot of the strategies. They were no longer working. strategies. They were no longer working. strategies. They were no longer working. The Mongol system worked perfectly on The Mongol system worked perfectly on The Mongol system worked perfectly on the grassland but by the time you get to the grassland but by the time you get to the grassland but by the time you get to Hungary the grassland starts to give Hungary the grassland starts to give Hungary the grassland starts to give out. By the time you get to Poland is so out. By the time you get to Poland is so out. By the time you get to Poland is so many farms it's hard for horses to get many farms it's hard for horses to get many farms it's hard for horses to get through the farms and they don't want to through the farms and they don't want to through the farms and they don't want to go on the roads. By the time you get to go on the roads. By the time you get to go on the roads. By the time you get to the Indus River, it's too hot, too the Indus River, it's too hot, too the Indus River, it's too hot, too humid. The bows are beginning to wilt. humid. The bows are beginning to wilt. humid. The bows are beginning to wilt. The horses are exhausted. It's it's not The horses are exhausted. It's it's not The horses are exhausted. It's it's not working. So to conquer South China, working. So to conquer South China, working. So to conquer South China, Kublakhan had to come up with new Kublakhan had to come up with new Kublakhan had to come up with new things. things. things. One thing, the South Chinese had built a One thing, the South Chinese had built a One thing, the South Chinese had built a great wall. It was called the Great Wall great wall. It was called the Great Wall great wall. It was called the Great Wall of the Sea. This is before the wall that of the Sea. This is before the wall that of the Sea. This is before the wall that we know as a great wall, which is really we know as a great wall, which is really we know as a great wall, which is really the Ming wall of the Ming dynasty was the Ming wall of the Ming dynasty was the Ming wall of the Ming dynasty was built, but the great wall of the sea.

built, but the great wall of the sea. built, but the great wall of the sea. And they used it as a defensive navy. And they used it as a defensive navy. And they used it as a defensive navy. They had the largest a navy in the They had the largest a navy in the They had the largest a navy in the world. It was defensive and it was most world. It was defensive and it was most world. It was defensive and it was most literally defensive. And it came time literally defensive. And it came time literally defensive. And it came time for warfare. They would chain the ships for warfare. They would chain the ships for warfare. They would chain the ships together across the mouth of a harbor to together across the mouth of a harbor to together across the mouth of a harbor to protect the city. And so it became a protect the city. And so it became a protect the city. And so it became a wall. So actually if we rewind rewind wall. So actually if we rewind rewind wall. So actually if we rewind rewind Kublan who was he and what was the state Kublan who was he and what was the state Kublan who was he and what was the state of China at that time that kind of sets of China at that time that kind of sets of China at that time that kind of sets up this idea of uh ships and siege up this idea of uh ships and siege up this idea of uh ships and siege warfare. warfare. warfare. >> In 1215 Chinghan conquered the city we >> In 1215 Chinghan conquered the city we >> In 1215 Chinghan conquered the city we now know as Beijing. It was the capital now know as Beijing. It was the capital now know as Beijing. It was the capital of the Jin dynasty of northern China. of the Jin dynasty of northern China. of the Jin dynasty of northern China. And at that time southern China was And at that time southern China was And at that time southern China was ruled by the Song dynasty or usually ruled by the Song dynasty or usually ruled by the Song dynasty or usually called the southern song. He had already called the southern song. He had already called the southern song. He had already conquered the Shishia kingdom or the conquered the Shishia kingdom or the conquered the Shishia kingdom or the Tangut people and so most of northern Tangut people and so most of northern Tangut people and so most of northern China was under the control of the China was under the control of the China was under the control of the Mongols from about 1215 and then he Mongols from about 1215 and then he Mongols from about 1215 and then he conquered middle. Later his uh uh his conquered middle. Later his uh uh his conquered middle. Later his uh uh his descendants conquered middle and then descendants conquered middle and then descendants conquered middle and then Kublakhan was the one to take on the Kublakhan was the one to take on the Kublakhan was the one to take on the south. But Kublakhan was born that year south. But Kublakhan was born that year south. But Kublakhan was born that year in 1215 about 3 months after the the in 1215 about 3 months after the the in 1215 about 3 months after the the capture of Beijing and he was nobody.

capture of Beijing and he was nobody. capture of Beijing and he was nobody. He was the second son of the fourth son He was the second son of the fourth son He was the second son of the fourth son of Chingghaskhan. Well, he's got lots of of Chingghaskhan. Well, he's got lots of of Chingghaskhan. Well, he's got lots of cousins out there who've been riding cousins out there who've been riding cousins out there who've been riding around. They've conquering Russia and around. They've conquering Russia and around. They've conquering Russia and they've already burned down Kiev and they've already burned down Kiev and they've already burned down Kiev and they've conquered different places in they've conquered different places in they've conquered different places in the world. They're real Mongols. That's the world. They're real Mongols. That's the world. They're real Mongols. That's their whole life. And he's born and he their whole life. And he's born and he their whole life. And he's born and he doesn't meet uh Chingghisan till he's doesn't meet uh Chingghisan till he's doesn't meet uh Chingghisan till he's about seven years old because Chinghan about seven years old because Chinghan about seven years old because Chinghan was away on conquest in in Central Asia. was away on conquest in in Central Asia. was away on conquest in in Central Asia. And Chinghan came back and he met him And Chinghan came back and he met him And Chinghan came back and he met him and he said, "Oh, he doesn't look like a and he said, "Oh, he doesn't look like a and he said, "Oh, he doesn't look like a Mongol. He looks like his mother's Mongol. He looks like his mother's Mongol. He looks like his mother's people." His mother was Sakani who was people." His mother was Sakani who was people." His mother was Sakani who was actually a part of the royal family of actually a part of the royal family of actually a part of the royal family of the Murket people whom he had conquered the Murket people whom he had conquered the Murket people whom he had conquered sometime earlier. And it looks like his sometime earlier. And it looks like his sometime earlier. And it looks like his mother's people who was a little bit mother's people who was a little bit mother's people who was a little bit more tawny. Mongols tend to be very more tawny. Mongols tend to be very more tawny. Mongols tend to be very white with very bright bright red cheeks white with very bright bright red cheeks white with very bright bright red cheeks and have a certain very round face and and have a certain very round face and and have a certain very round face and so on. And uh so he looked different and so on. And uh so he looked different and so on. And uh so he looked different and for whatever reason his mother I think for whatever reason his mother I think for whatever reason his mother I think she recognized the difference and she recognized the difference and she recognized the difference and treated him differently. Her oldest son treated him differently. Her oldest son treated him differently. Her oldest son was called Monk, later Monan Monk, and was called Monk, later Monan Monk, and was called Monk, later Monan Monk, and she wanted him to become, even though she wanted him to become, even though she wanted him to become, even though her husband was drunk, who died out on her husband was drunk, who died out on her husband was drunk, who died out on campaign drunk. And she took over campaign drunk. And she took over campaign drunk. And she took over northern China and she began to put it northern China and she began to put it northern China and she began to put it together. And she wanted her son to together. And she wanted her son to together. And she wanted her son to become the great Han, the emperor of the become the great Han, the emperor of the become the great Han, the emperor of the Mongol Empire. And this wasn't in line.

Mongol Empire. And this wasn't in line. Mongol Empire. And this wasn't in line. This wasn't going to happen because he's This wasn't going to happen because he's This wasn't going to happen because he's the fourth son out of three. others are the fourth son out of three. others are the fourth son out of three. others are way in line, way ahead of her. But she way in line, way ahead of her. But she way in line, way ahead of her. But she caused the revolution. She made it caused the revolution. She made it caused the revolution. She made it happen. She put her son in Mohan in happen. She put her son in Mohan in happen. She put her son in Mohan in 1251. He became great Han. 1251. He became great Han. 1251. He became great Han. He only lived till 1259. He died of He only lived till 1259. He died of He only lived till 1259. He died of something. It could have been Kalera or something. It could have been Kalera or something. It could have been Kalera or they're different stories. I don't know they're different stories. I don't know they're different stories. I don't know the truth of it, but he died on campaign the truth of it, but he died on campaign the truth of it, but he died on campaign in China trying to conquer southern in China trying to conquer southern in China trying to conquer southern China. Well, up to this point, Kubla China. Well, up to this point, Kubla China. Well, up to this point, Kubla Khan had not been distinguishing Khan had not been distinguishing Khan had not been distinguishing himself. His mother was uh she was a himself. His mother was uh she was a himself. His mother was uh she was a Christian woman, but she had a Buddhist Christian woman, but she had a Buddhist Christian woman, but she had a Buddhist nurse for him and she had Chinese nurse for him and she had Chinese nurse for him and she had Chinese scholars come in to tutor him. She had a scholars come in to tutor him. She had a scholars come in to tutor him. She had a very good education for him. And I think very good education for him. And I think very good education for him. And I think that she planned that he was going to be that she planned that he was going to be that she planned that he was going to be a great administrator under his older a great administrator under his older a great administrator under his older brother and he was going to administer brother and he was going to administer brother and he was going to administer the lands in China. And so he was the lands in China. And so he was the lands in China. And so he was learning all this stuff for it. But the learning all this stuff for it. But the learning all this stuff for it. But the older brother, he insisted on sending older brother, he insisted on sending older brother, he insisted on sending him out on campaign. Oh, but he was him out on campaign. Oh, but he was him out on campaign. Oh, but he was overweight. He was fat. He had gout. He overweight. He was fat. He had gout. He overweight. He was fat. He had gout. He needed to go rest. There was always some needed to go rest. There was always some needed to go rest. There was always some excuse. And the brother was assigning excuse. And the brother was assigning excuse. And the brother was assigning people, Orihai, who was the son of people, Orihai, who was the son of people, Orihai, who was the son of Subadai, the great general. He assigned Subadai, the great general. He assigned Subadai, the great general. He assigned him to teach him warfare.

him to teach him warfare. him to teach him warfare. He he wasn't great on the battlefield. He he wasn't great on the battlefield. He he wasn't great on the battlefield. He really was not. But he was very smart He really was not. But he was very smart He really was not. But he was very smart and at first a little bit lazy. He liked and at first a little bit lazy. He liked and at first a little bit lazy. He liked talking about the religion, sitting talking about the religion, sitting talking about the religion, sitting around, go hunting. as long as he had around, go hunting. as long as he had around, go hunting. as long as he had many men with him to do the shooting and many men with him to do the shooting and many men with him to do the shooting and uh and then to prepare the food and all. uh and then to prepare the food and all. uh and then to prepare the food and all. And and his territory in northern China And and his territory in northern China And and his territory in northern China was just being run in the dirt by these was just being run in the dirt by these was just being run in the dirt by these administrators the Mongols had brought administrators the Mongols had brought administrators the Mongols had brought in. They were just overt taxing the in. They were just overt taxing the in. They were just overt taxing the people, cheating the people, doing people, cheating the people, doing people, cheating the people, doing everything wrong. And his mother everything wrong. And his mother everything wrong. And his mother basically just pulled his chain and she basically just pulled his chain and she basically just pulled his chain and she said, "Go to your land. This is your said, "Go to your land. This is your said, "Go to your land. This is your land. You have to administer this land. land. You have to administer this land. land. You have to administer this land. You go there. You live there. you take You go there. You live there. you take You go there. You live there. you take charge. And everybody was terrified of charge. And everybody was terrified of charge. And everybody was terrified of the mother. And so he ran off to China the mother. And so he ran off to China the mother. And so he ran off to China and he started administering his land and he started administering his land and he started administering his land and he started learning how to do it. and he started learning how to do it. and he started learning how to do it. Well, when his brother died in 1259, he Well, when his brother died in 1259, he Well, when his brother died in 1259, he was down on the yellow uh Yangti River was down on the yellow uh Yangti River was down on the yellow uh Yangti River on a campaign that he was sent by his on a campaign that he was sent by his on a campaign that he was sent by his brother. He was having no success at brother. He was having no success at brother. He was having no success at all, but he thought, "Okay, the all, but he thought, "Okay, the all, but he thought, "Okay, the brother's dead. I should finish the brother's dead. I should finish the brother's dead. I should finish the campaign." Meanwhile, his youngest campaign." Meanwhile, his youngest campaign." Meanwhile, his youngest brother, Aricbach, Arikbok was another brother, Aricbach, Arikbok was another brother, Aricbach, Arikbok was another hothead Mongol like their father, Tulu.

hothead Mongol like their father, Tulu. hothead Mongol like their father, Tulu. He was rather hotheaded and he was back He was rather hotheaded and he was back He was rather hotheaded and he was back in Mongolia and his tolerance for in Mongolia and his tolerance for in Mongolia and his tolerance for religions, he was had to oversee the religions, he was had to oversee the religions, he was had to oversee the debate one time between the Dowists and debate one time between the Dowists and debate one time between the Dowists and the Buddhists, because the Mongols the Buddhists, because the Mongols the Buddhists, because the Mongols thought the Dowists were overt taxing thought the Dowists were overt taxing thought the Dowists were overt taxing everybody, the Buddhists. And so, he had everybody, the Buddhists. And so, he had everybody, the Buddhists. And so, he had to oversee it. He got mad and he picked to oversee it. He got mad and he picked to oversee it. He got mad and he picked up a statue of the Buddha and beat the up a statue of the Buddha and beat the up a statue of the Buddha and beat the Dowist representative to death. So he Dowist representative to death. So he Dowist representative to death. So he just wasn't good for moderating debates, just wasn't good for moderating debates, just wasn't good for moderating debates, you know. So he was going to be the new you know. So he was going to be the new you know. So he was going to be the new great Khan. So he was declared the great great Khan. So he was declared the great great Khan. So he was declared the great Khan in Mongolia. Khan in Mongolia. Khan in Mongolia. But this was a turning life for Kubla But this was a turning life for Kubla But this was a turning life for Kubla Khan who had never achieved much of Khan who had never achieved much of Khan who had never achieved much of anything other than talking to people. anything other than talking to people. anything other than talking to people. So his wife Chabi sent him some coded So his wife Chabi sent him some coded So his wife Chabi sent him some coded messages basically telling him, "Forget messages basically telling him, "Forget messages basically telling him, "Forget about southern China. It's gonna always about southern China. It's gonna always about southern China. It's gonna always be there. You could conquer that some be there. You could conquer that some be there. You could conquer that some other time. Right now, your brother is other time. Right now, your brother is other time. Right now, your brother is taking over the empire. You should be taking over the empire. You should be taking over the empire. You should be the new emperor. You are the next son the new emperor. You are the next son the new emperor. You are the next son after Mon.

after Mon. after Mon. And somehow she invigorated him. And he And somehow she invigorated him. And he And somehow she invigorated him. And he came back and even though he didn't have came back and even though he didn't have came back and even though he didn't have all the military strategy, he had all the military strategy, he had all the military strategy, he had northern China. The resources were northern China. The resources were northern China. The resources were immense. He could cut off Mongolia. immense. He could cut off Mongolia. immense. He could cut off Mongolia. Mongolia was very dependent on northern Mongolia was very dependent on northern Mongolia was very dependent on northern China for food. All the Mongols China for food. All the Mongols China for food. All the Mongols supported Aricbok. All the ones in supported Aricbok. All the ones in supported Aricbok. All the ones in Central Asia, uh, all of them were Central Asia, uh, all of them were Central Asia, uh, all of them were supporting Aikbuk. And so he went to get supporting Aikbuk. And so he went to get supporting Aikbuk. And so he went to get food from them food from them food from them and then they didn't want to give up and then they didn't want to give up and then they didn't want to give up their food. Yeah, we want to support you their food. Yeah, we want to support you their food. Yeah, we want to support you for Great Han, but we're not giving up for Great Han, but we're not giving up for Great Han, but we're not giving up our food. So he was basically kind of our food. So he was basically kind of our food. So he was basically kind of starved into submission in 1262. starved into submission in 1262. starved into submission in 1262. And then he was taken prisoner into And then he was taken prisoner into And then he was taken prisoner into China. And then he China. And then he China. And then he mysteriously mysteriously mysteriously passed away in 1264 passed away in 1264 passed away in 1264 while a legal case was being brought while a legal case was being brought while a legal case was being brought against him for trial, but he never made against him for trial, but he never made against him for trial, but he never made it to trial. Uh he was gone. So it to trial. Uh he was gone. So it to trial. Uh he was gone. So Kublakhan Kublakhan Kublakhan had not really distinguished himself had not really distinguished himself had not really distinguished himself very much. But very much. But very much. But he didn't have the genius of his he didn't have the genius of his he didn't have the genius of his grandfather. I won't say that. But he grandfather. I won't say that. But he grandfather. I won't say that. But he was smart and clever. He understood more was smart and clever. He understood more was smart and clever. He understood more about China than most Mongols did. And about China than most Mongols did. And about China than most Mongols did. And he understood most more about Mongols he understood most more about Mongols he understood most more about Mongols than most Chinese did.

than most Chinese did. than most Chinese did. So the great thing left that Chinghan So the great thing left that Chinghan So the great thing left that Chinghan said on his deathbed, said on his deathbed, said on his deathbed, "Finish conquering China." You know that "Finish conquering China." You know that "Finish conquering China." You know that was the great objective. So was the great objective. So was the great objective. So Kubalai was going to fulfill this and Kubalai was going to fulfill this and Kubalai was going to fulfill this and they didn't know how. The great wall of they didn't know how. The great wall of they didn't know how. The great wall of ships was protecting the southern song. ships was protecting the southern song. ships was protecting the southern song. this huge Yangzey river was so bad wide this huge Yangzey river was so bad wide this huge Yangzey river was so bad wide the ocean on the side. All of these the ocean on the side. All of these the ocean on the side. All of these things were protecting them. So he had things were protecting them. So he had things were protecting them. So he had one of his very smart generals named Aju one of his very smart generals named Aju one of his very smart generals named Aju who was a real Mongol but he was also who was a real Mongol but he was also who was a real Mongol but he was also able to think in innovative way. He was able to think in innovative way. He was able to think in innovative way. He was the grandson of Subadai the grandson of Subadai the grandson of Subadai and he went with his father Urri Hungai and he went with his father Urri Hungai and he went with his father Urri Hungai on the conquest of the Red River of on the conquest of the Red River of on the conquest of the Red River of Northern Vietnam against the Dviet Northern Vietnam against the Dviet Northern Vietnam against the Dviet people. people. people. They went down the river. They were They went down the river. They were They went down the river. They were trying to surround this Chinese trying to surround this Chinese trying to surround this Chinese territory. They were going to hit them territory. They were going to hit them territory. They were going to hit them from the north, from the west, and from from the north, from the west, and from from the north, from the west, and from the south. So they went down the the Red the south. So they went down the the Red the south. So they went down the the Red River and to conquer the Daviet. The River and to conquer the Daviet. The River and to conquer the Daviet. The Dviet moved their army up on the other Dviet moved their army up on the other Dviet moved their army up on the other side by boat and then they had a whole side by boat and then they had a whole side by boat and then they had a whole core of elephants. So they have the core of elephants. So they have the core of elephants. So they have the Mongols on one side of the river and the Mongols on one side of the river and the Mongols on one side of the river and the Dviet forces on the other side.

Dviet forces on the other side. Dviet forces on the other side. Orhangadai was a smart man, not a Orhangadai was a smart man, not a Orhangadai was a smart man, not a genius, but smart. And he already knew genius, but smart. And he already knew genius, but smart. And he already knew from campaigns in Burma that the only from campaigns in Burma that the only from campaigns in Burma that the only way to route the elephants was with way to route the elephants was with way to route the elephants was with flaming arrows to the feet. That was it. flaming arrows to the feet. That was it. flaming arrows to the feet. That was it. But he recognized that they came up on But he recognized that they came up on But he recognized that they came up on boats. Mongols didn't like boats. It boats. Mongols didn't like boats. It boats. Mongols didn't like boats. It just they crossed the river on a goat just they crossed the river on a goat just they crossed the river on a goat skin. They wanted to do something skin. They wanted to do something skin. They wanted to do something organic. A boat was like a cart. A cart organic. A boat was like a cart. A cart organic. A boat was like a cart. A cart belonged to a woman. It was a floating belonged to a woman. It was a floating belonged to a woman. It was a floating cart. I am not going over on a floating cart. I am not going over on a floating cart. I am not going over on a floating cart. I'm going to ride a goat skin cart. I'm going to ride a goat skin cart. I'm going to ride a goat skin across the river. across the river. across the river. So he's assigned one detachment. You So he's assigned one detachment. You So he's assigned one detachment. You have to burn the boats. So the dive have to burn the boats. So the dive have to burn the boats. So the dive cannot escape when we route the cannot escape when we route the cannot escape when we route the elephants. Well, the war battle I mean elephants. Well, the war battle I mean elephants. Well, the war battle I mean got started. The elephants are running got started. The elephants are running got started. The elephants are running wild. All kinds of chaos is going on. wild. All kinds of chaos is going on. wild. All kinds of chaos is going on. The the group that sent to burn the The the group that sent to burn the The the group that sent to burn the boats, they're Mongols. They want to go boats, they're Mongols. They want to go boats, they're Mongols. They want to go to war. I mean, why burn a bunch of to war. I mean, why burn a bunch of to war. I mean, why burn a bunch of women's carts? It's just not, you know, women's carts? It's just not, you know, women's carts? It's just not, you know, floating. So they go and join the floating. So they go and join the floating. So they go and join the battle. They leave the boats. Well, the battle. They leave the boats. Well, the battle. They leave the boats. Well, the Mongols won the battle, but the Dviet Mongols won the battle, but the Dviet Mongols won the battle, but the Dviet forces got on the boats and sailed back forces got on the boats and sailed back forces got on the boats and sailed back to what's now Hanoi. And then they to what's now Hanoi. And then they to what's now Hanoi. And then they evacuated the city, took all the food, evacuated the city, took all the food, evacuated the city, took all the food, everything out of the city, and they everything out of the city, and they everything out of the city, and they disappeared into the delta. The Mongols disappeared into the delta. The Mongols disappeared into the delta. The Mongols arrived, they conquered, quote unquote, arrived, they conquered, quote unquote, arrived, they conquered, quote unquote, Hanoi, the capital city, and they had Hanoi, the capital city, and they had Hanoi, the capital city, and they had nothing.

nothing. nothing. >> They had nothing. They won every battle. >> They had nothing. They won every battle. >> They had nothing. They won every battle. They lost the war. They retreated. Aju They lost the war. They retreated. Aju They lost the war. They retreated. Aju was the son of Hunghadai and he saw all was the son of Hunghadai and he saw all was the son of Hunghadai and he saw all this happen and he recognized the this happen and he recognized the this happen and he recognized the importance of water and boats and so he importance of water and boats and so he importance of water and boats and so he knew and he spent his time studying the knew and he spent his time studying the knew and he spent his time studying the Yangty River and every little river Yangty River and every little river Yangty River and every little river around it and the cities. And the around it and the cities. And the around it and the cities. And the crucial thing he saw was the cities are crucial thing he saw was the cities are crucial thing he saw was the cities are heavily heavily fortified on the land heavily heavily fortified on the land heavily heavily fortified on the land side because invasion comes from the side because invasion comes from the side because invasion comes from the land and they expect this little line of land and they expect this little line of land and they expect this little line of boats to protect them on the water and boats to protect them on the water and boats to protect them on the water and so their city walls are weak. The so their city walls are weak. The so their city walls are weak. The defenses are weak on that side. That's defenses are weak on that side. That's defenses are weak on that side. That's where we have to attack. So how they where we have to attack. So how they where we have to attack. So how they sent off to the Ilanate to Persia where sent off to the Ilanate to Persia where sent off to the Ilanate to Persia where Chingis Khan his uncle was now dead and Chingis Khan his uncle was now dead and Chingis Khan his uncle was now dead and his cousins were ruling there or his his cousins were ruling there or his his cousins were ruling there or his nephews we would say or cousins nephew. nephews we would say or cousins nephew. nephews we would say or cousins nephew. So uh they sent over engineers to build So uh they sent over engineers to build So uh they sent over engineers to build special kind of trebuche catapult and special kind of trebuche catapult and special kind of trebuche catapult and they had to play around with it to adapt they had to play around with it to adapt they had to play around with it to adapt it for a boat because they were usually it for a boat because they were usually it for a boat because they were usually made for stable ground but they adapted made for stable ground but they adapted made for stable ground but they adapted it for the boat and for throwing heavy it for the boat and for throwing heavy it for the boat and for throwing heavy things and also for some uh incendiary things and also for some uh incendiary things and also for some uh incendiary bombs. They developed it. They attacked bombs. They developed it. They attacked bombs. They developed it. They attacked the first city. It fell. They attacked the first city. It fell. They attacked the first city. It fell. They attacked the ne it fell. They had something that the ne it fell. They had something that the ne it fell. They had something that was working. They worked their way down was working. They worked their way down was working. They worked their way down the Yangze River destroying city after the Yangze River destroying city after the Yangze River destroying city after city with this navy and then the army city with this navy and then the army city with this navy and then the army would move in after the navy had broken would move in after the navy had broken would move in after the navy had broken down.

down. down. >> So this is a a catapult on a ship. >> So this is a a catapult on a ship. >> So this is a a catapult on a ship. >> Catapult on a ship but it's Yeah. We >> Catapult on a ship but it's Yeah. We >> Catapult on a ship but it's Yeah. We call type shape for this type of call type shape for this type of call type shape for this type of catapult. catapult. catapult. >> So this is an engineering solution >> So this is an engineering solution >> So this is an engineering solution for peoples who are deeply uncomfortable for peoples who are deeply uncomfortable for peoples who are deeply uncomfortable with boats. with boats. with boats. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> And they've accepted it. >> And they've accepted it. >> And they've accepted it. >> Yes. Now it's a great weapon. It's like >> Yes. Now it's a great weapon. It's like >> Yes. Now it's a great weapon. It's like it's not it's no longer a woman's cart. it's not it's no longer a woman's cart. it's not it's no longer a woman's cart. It's a bow and arrow. It is a giant bow It's a bow and arrow. It is a giant bow It's a bow and arrow. It is a giant bow and arrow. and arrow. and arrow. >> Yeah. It's fascinating. So that they go >> Yeah. It's fascinating. So that they go >> Yeah. It's fascinating. So that they go they hit them hard on the walls on the they hit them hard on the walls on the they hit them hard on the walls on the weak side. Yes. weak side. Yes. weak side. Yes. >> Where there's no the army protection. >> Where there's no the army protection. >> Where there's no the army protection. >> Yes. And they conquer their way down >> Yes. And they conquer their way down >> Yes. And they conquer their way down to Hoou, the capital of the southern to Hoou, the capital of the southern to Hoou, the capital of the southern song. song. song. They've been in power for a long time They've been in power for a long time They've been in power for a long time since 970. And now we're already into since 970. And now we're already into since 970. And now we're already into the 1270s. the 1270s. the 1270s. That's a long time. They are dissipated. That's a long time. They are dissipated. That's a long time. They are dissipated. They've been had child em they had They've been had child em they had They've been had child em they had embezzles ruling. All kinds of things embezzles ruling. All kinds of things embezzles ruling. All kinds of things going on. And at this point, we have a a going on. And at this point, we have a a going on. And at this point, we have a a child in command.

child in command. child in command. But K hubai makes a very strange move. But K hubai makes a very strange move. But K hubai makes a very strange move. He says, "Okay, let's invade Japan now." They think, "What? They think, "What? We're fighting against the Song We're fighting against the Song We're fighting against the Song Dynasty." Dynasty." Dynasty." And most people ascribe it to all kinds And most people ascribe it to all kinds And most people ascribe it to all kinds of things, but actually I think there of things, but actually I think there of things, but actually I think there was a great logic to it. One was he had was a great logic to it. One was he had was a great logic to it. One was he had abolished his grandfather's policy of abolished his grandfather's policy of abolished his grandfather's policy of defeat and destroy until they are no defeat and destroy until they are no defeat and destroy until they are no more. That was the phrase that was used more. That was the phrase that was used more. That was the phrase that was used for their enemies and he had replaced it for their enemies and he had replaced it for their enemies and he had replaced it with a kind of mercy policy. Try to with a kind of mercy policy. Try to with a kind of mercy policy. Try to incorporate them into your army if incorporate them into your army if incorporate them into your army if possible, but be merciful. He did not possible, but be merciful. He did not possible, but be merciful. He did not want to destroy and he was not. He was want to destroy and he was not. He was want to destroy and he was not. He was had a lot of defectors coming in and had a lot of defectors coming in and had a lot of defectors coming in and because the Mongols prized people with because the Mongols prized people with because the Mongols prized people with skills, a lot of very clever people with skills, a lot of very clever people with skills, a lot of very clever people with ship building and engineers and these ship building and engineers and these ship building and engineers and these people were flocking to the Mongols. people were flocking to the Mongols. people were flocking to the Mongols. Whereas the scholars were all hanging Whereas the scholars were all hanging Whereas the scholars were all hanging out in Guanghou doing calligraphy and out in Guanghou doing calligraphy and out in Guanghou doing calligraphy and poetry and having contests over who poetry and having contests over who poetry and having contests over who could sing or paint or I don't know what could sing or paint or I don't know what could sing or paint or I don't know what scholars do but they were they were scholars do but they were they were scholars do but they were they were being scholars.

being scholars. being scholars. >> Yes. But there actually I think there's >> Yes. But there actually I think there's >> Yes. But there actually I think there's a very very good reason for invading a very very good reason for invading a very very good reason for invading Japan. Several the main one was to cut Japan. Several the main one was to cut Japan. Several the main one was to cut off the supply of sulfur. They needed it off the supply of sulfur. They needed it off the supply of sulfur. They needed it for gunpowder in South Tong. They lost for gunpowder in South Tong. They lost for gunpowder in South Tong. They lost their sources in northern China when their sources in northern China when their sources in northern China when they were driven out. They got it from they were driven out. They got it from they were driven out. They got it from Japan. It was a great source. But I Japan. It was a great source. But I Japan. It was a great source. But I think there were other reasons. If they think there were other reasons. If they think there were other reasons. If they could trade, they could also perhaps could trade, they could also perhaps could trade, they could also perhaps flee to Japan. And they didn't want that flee to Japan. And they didn't want that flee to Japan. And they didn't want that to happen. And then there's this idea to happen. And then there's this idea to happen. And then there's this idea of, you know, like kill the chicken to of, you know, like kill the chicken to of, you know, like kill the chicken to scare the monkey. It's like, okay, we'll scare the monkey. It's like, okay, we'll scare the monkey. It's like, okay, we'll go do this and then maybe they'll just go do this and then maybe they'll just go do this and then maybe they'll just surrender down there if they see us surrender down there if they see us surrender down there if they see us conquer Japan. Well, it was a total conquer Japan. Well, it was a total conquer Japan. Well, it was a total failure. You've got a bunch of ships failure. You've got a bunch of ships failure. You've got a bunch of ships that are m mainly great on the river that are m mainly great on the river that are m mainly great on the river and'll ride along the coast and you're and'll ride along the coast and you're and'll ride along the coast and you're crossing some treacherous water there crossing some treacherous water there crossing some treacherous water there and and you the Mongols basically just and and you the Mongols basically just and and you the Mongols basically just did not know what they were doing. Okay, did not know what they were doing. Okay, did not know what they were doing. Okay, you can arrive with a trabushe and you you can arrive with a trabushe and you you can arrive with a trabushe and you can throw grenades at the beach. It's can throw grenades at the beach. It's can throw grenades at the beach. It's not really going to do a lot of damage. not really going to do a lot of damage. not really going to do a lot of damage. It might scare a few horses, but you're It might scare a few horses, but you're It might scare a few horses, but you're not destroying cities. And the Japanese not destroying cities. And the Japanese not destroying cities. And the Japanese cities were more in they weren't there cities were more in they weren't there cities were more in they weren't there on the beach waiting for Mongols to come on the beach waiting for Mongols to come on the beach waiting for Mongols to come invade. So he failed in that invasion.

invade. So he failed in that invasion. invade. So he failed in that invasion. >> So we should say that this is the the >> So we should say that this is the the >> So we should say that this is the the time of the samurai, right? time of the samurai, right? time of the samurai, right? >> Samurai. Yeah. >> Samurai. Yeah. >> Samurai. Yeah. >> So, um, so there was never a real test >> So, um, so there was never a real test >> So, um, so there was never a real test of like of like of like >> No, there was some fighting and the >> No, there was some fighting and the >> No, there was some fighting and the samurai learned some very valuable samurai learned some very valuable samurai learned some very valuable things. The samurai had such a things. The samurai had such a things. The samurai had such a ritualized way of it's like the knights ritualized way of it's like the knights ritualized way of it's like the knights of Europe. of Europe. of Europe. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Coming out with armor that had to be >> Coming out with armor that had to be >> Coming out with armor that had to be lifted up on a crane onto a horse and I lifted up on a crane onto a horse and I lifted up on a crane onto a horse and I mean it was just craziness. Craziness. mean it was just craziness. Craziness. mean it was just craziness. Craziness. The samurai almost at that point you The samurai almost at that point you The samurai almost at that point you ride out in front of your enemy and you ride out in front of your enemy and you ride out in front of your enemy and you recite the story of your genealogy, recite the story of your genealogy, recite the story of your genealogy, >> right? >> right? >> right? what you know Mongols they have no use what you know Mongols they have no use what you know Mongols they have no use for that they're there to fight they're for that they're there to fight they're for that they're there to fight they're there to win but on the other hand this there to win but on the other hand this there to win but on the other hand this was unknown territory to them and the was unknown territory to them and the was unknown territory to them and the weather did turn against them but I weather did turn against them but I weather did turn against them but I don't want to give too much credit to don't want to give too much credit to don't want to give too much credit to the weather I really think that the the weather I really think that the the weather I really think that the Japanese defeated them the Mongols Japanese defeated them the Mongols Japanese defeated them the Mongols weren't well prepared their ships were weren't well prepared their ships were weren't well prepared their ships were not very good they were defeated in the not very good they were defeated in the not very good they were defeated in the first invasion first invasion first invasion >> could they get off the ships onto the >> could they get off the ships onto the >> could they get off the ships onto the beach beach beach >> they did they had some skirmishes or >> they did they had some skirmishes or >> they did they had some skirmishes or small battles on land. Yes, they did.

small battles on land. Yes, they did. small battles on land. Yes, they did. >> But they didn't successfully complete >> But they didn't successfully complete >> But they didn't successfully complete them. I mean, them. I mean, them. I mean, >> no. >> no. >> no. >> So, they couldn't do their usual Mongol >> So, they couldn't do their usual Mongol >> So, they couldn't do their usual Mongol thing, thing, thing, >> right? Well, see, they don't have enough >> right? Well, see, they don't have enough >> right? Well, see, they don't have enough horses for one thing. horses for one thing. horses for one thing. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> You know, and uh there were many >> You know, and uh there were many >> You know, and uh there were many tactical things that they had done tactical things that they had done tactical things that they had done incorrectly. It's the first time anybody incorrectly. It's the first time anybody incorrectly. It's the first time anybody had ever tried to have such a massive had ever tried to have such a massive had ever tried to have such a massive invasion. invasion. invasion. >> Yeah. So, they're just learning the >> Yeah. So, they're just learning the >> Yeah. So, they're just learning the basics of what it means to have a navy. basics of what it means to have a navy. basics of what it means to have a navy. So he has failed to conquer and he's So he has failed to conquer and he's So he has failed to conquer and he's thinking like a Mongol that you rule the thinking like a Mongol that you rule the thinking like a Mongol that you rule the those waters and lands but he ruled the those waters and lands but he ruled the those waters and lands but he ruled the ocean. He stopped the trade. He stopped ocean. He stopped the trade. He stopped ocean. He stopped the trade. He stopped the supply. He cut off the possibility the supply. He cut off the possibility the supply. He cut off the possibility of the Song dynasty fleeing to Japan. of the Song dynasty fleeing to Japan. of the Song dynasty fleeing to Japan. He won He won He won >> in a certain way. He lost but he had won >> in a certain way. He lost but he had won >> in a certain way. He lost but he had won his objective of cutting off southern his objective of cutting off southern his objective of cutting off southern China. Also it gave him navy some China. Also it gave him navy some China. Also it gave him navy some experience with the ocean and now they experience with the ocean and now they experience with the ocean and now they were ready to move out into the ocean were ready to move out into the ocean were ready to move out into the ocean around southern China. around southern China. around southern China. So they were closing in then.

So they were closing in then. So they were closing in then. Au was in command but actually the head Au was in command but actually the head Au was in command but actually the head command was a man named Bayan who was a command was a man named Bayan who was a command was a man named Bayan who was a Mongol who had been raised more in Mongol who had been raised more in Mongol who had been raised more in central Asia. He was perhaps born close central Asia. He was perhaps born close central Asia. He was perhaps born close to the Fragana Valley in that area. to the Fragana Valley in that area. to the Fragana Valley in that area. We're not exactly sure where he was We're not exactly sure where he was We're not exactly sure where he was born, but he grew up over there and then born, but he grew up over there and then born, but he grew up over there and then he eventually was living in uh what's he eventually was living in uh what's he eventually was living in uh what's now Iran, but he came and he took over now Iran, but he came and he took over now Iran, but he came and he took over command of the army. He was very command of the army. He was very command of the army. He was very cosmopolitan, sophisticated, cosmopolitan, sophisticated, cosmopolitan, sophisticated, intelligent. intelligent. intelligent. Aju should have been in command, but Aju should have been in command, but Aju should have been in command, but Bayern recognized that and he and Aju Bayern recognized that and he and Aju Bayern recognized that and he and Aju worked together very well. Aju knew how worked together very well. Aju knew how worked together very well. Aju knew how to fight the war. Bayern was able to to fight the war. Bayern was able to to fight the war. Bayern was able to negotiate things back with the capital negotiate things back with the capital negotiate things back with the capital city and handle things. So Bayern is in city and handle things. So Bayern is in city and handle things. So Bayern is in command and so the generals are command and so the generals are command and so the generals are deserting the Southong right and left. deserting the Southong right and left. deserting the Southong right and left. The artisans are all coming up to join The artisans are all coming up to join The artisans are all coming up to join the Mongols paid. The generals are the Mongols paid. The generals are the Mongols paid. The generals are loading up the boats with all the jewels loading up the boats with all the jewels loading up the boats with all the jewels and they grab a couple of uh brothers to and they grab a couple of uh brothers to and they grab a couple of uh brothers to the little 5-year-old emperor and they the little 5-year-old emperor and they the little 5-year-old emperor and they put them on a boat and they're fleeing.

put them on a boat and they're fleeing. put them on a boat and they're fleeing. They even deserted their own f their own They even deserted their own f their own They even deserted their own f their own families. The generals were corrupt families. The generals were corrupt families. The generals were corrupt cowards who fled. The person left in cowards who fled. The person left in cowards who fled. The person left in charge was the Daer Empress, an old charge was the Daer Empress, an old charge was the Daer Empress, an old lady. She had no children. She was her lady. She had no children. She was her lady. She had no children. She was her name. The Daer Empress. She said she was name. The Daer Empress. She said she was name. The Daer Empress. She said she was missing an eye. She was ugly. They missing an eye. She was ugly. They missing an eye. She was ugly. They called her ugly. She that's what they called her ugly. She that's what they called her ugly. She that's what they called her at that time. called her at that time. called her at that time. She was in charge. And she offered the She was in charge. And she offered the She was in charge. And she offered the Mongols everything. I'll give you Mongols everything. I'll give you Mongols everything. I'll give you everything. Please let the emperor stay. everything. Please let the emperor stay. everything. Please let the emperor stay. Okay? Even if you demote him to just Okay? Even if you demote him to just Okay? Even if you demote him to just being a king, please let him stay. being a king, please let him stay. being a king, please let him stay. Bayern said no. Total surrender. Total Bayern said no. Total surrender. Total Bayern said no. Total surrender. Total surrender. So she decided to surrender. surrender. So she decided to surrender. surrender. So she decided to surrender. Well, she said, "Yes, we will surrender Well, she said, "Yes, we will surrender Well, she said, "Yes, we will surrender the capital." So Bayern came in with a the capital." So Bayern came in with a the capital." So Bayern came in with a small group of soldiers. They looked small group of soldiers. They looked small group of soldiers. They looked around and she invited him to come to around and she invited him to come to around and she invited him to come to the palace to surrender. And he said, the palace to surrender. And he said, the palace to surrender. And he said, "No, "No, "No, I didn't win this war in the palace. My I didn't win this war in the palace. My I didn't win this war in the palace. My soldiers won this war in the field. You soldiers won this war in the field. You soldiers won this war in the field. You have to come with the emperor in front have to come with the emperor in front have to come with the emperor in front of my soldiers to surrender. But he did of my soldiers to surrender. But he did of my soldiers to surrender. But he did not harm her. He respected her and there not harm her. He respected her and there not harm her. He respected her and there was no looting of the city.

was no looting of the city. was no looting of the city. Now later they take everything in a very Now later they take everything in a very Now later they take everything in a very systematic way. They take the archives systematic way. They take the archives systematic way. They take the archives and all this kind of stuff away. But and all this kind of stuff away. But and all this kind of stuff away. But there's no wholesale looting and killing there's no wholesale looting and killing there's no wholesale looting and killing of people, nothing like that. So they've of people, nothing like that. So they've of people, nothing like that. So they've taken the capital taken the capital taken the capital and she comes out. She surrenders. She and she comes out. She surrenders. She and she comes out. She surrenders. She bows on the ground towards Beijing and bows on the ground towards Beijing and bows on the ground towards Beijing and then she takes the child emperor and then she takes the child emperor and then she takes the child emperor and they slowly make their way uh she was a they slowly make their way uh she was a they slowly make their way uh she was a little bit sick. It took her a longer little bit sick. It took her a longer little bit sick. It took her a longer time to Beijing and they surrender again time to Beijing and they surrender again time to Beijing and they surrender again in a public ceremony bowing to the in a public ceremony bowing to the in a public ceremony bowing to the Kublakhan. He gives each of them a Kublakhan. He gives each of them a Kublakhan. He gives each of them a palace. He gives them a new uh new uh uh palace. He gives them a new uh new uh uh palace. He gives them a new uh new uh uh title. He protect he's trying to show title. He protect he's trying to show title. He protect he's trying to show the world this is the new face of the world this is the new face of the world this is the new face of Mongols. We don't kill off the old Mongols. We don't kill off the old Mongols. We don't kill off the old people anymore who are ruling. We're people anymore who are ruling. We're people anymore who are ruling. We're going to give them a palace, treat them going to give them a palace, treat them going to give them a palace, treat them nicely and all. nicely and all. nicely and all. But the navy that had fled did not But the navy that had fled did not But the navy that had fled did not defend the city. Those cowardly defend the city. Those cowardly defend the city. Those cowardly generals, generals, generals, they made the new little boy, they made the new little boy, they made the new little boy, sevenyear-old brother, half brother to sevenyear-old brother, half brother to sevenyear-old brother, half brother to the emperor Gong was his name. They made the emperor Gong was his name. They made the emperor Gong was his name. They made him the emperor.

him the emperor. him the emperor. Well, Well, Well, they're just floating around on the they're just floating around on the they're just floating around on the ocean, losing ocean, losing ocean, losing all support all support all support from city after city. The Muslims who from city after city. The Muslims who from city after city. The Muslims who were controlling the trade and were controlling the trade and were controlling the trade and controlling many of the ships of that controlling many of the ships of that controlling many of the ships of that area, they were Chinese Muslims, but but area, they were Chinese Muslims, but but area, they were Chinese Muslims, but but they were still Muslims. they were still Muslims. they were still Muslims. They switched sides to the Mongols They switched sides to the Mongols They switched sides to the Mongols because of the religious freedom thing because of the religious freedom thing because of the religious freedom thing and because they were merchants and and because they were merchants and and because they were merchants and their status would be raised. So the the their status would be raised. So the the their status would be raised. So the the Mongol uh the Muslims were switching Mongol uh the Muslims were switching Mongol uh the Muslims were switching over the the fleet was kind of a fleet over the the fleet was kind of a fleet over the the fleet was kind of a fleet lost without a country out there. They lost without a country out there. They lost without a country out there. They had some loyal supporters some places or had some loyal supporters some places or had some loyal supporters some places or they dropped the emperor in the ocean. they dropped the emperor in the ocean. they dropped the emperor in the ocean. You think how do you drop the emperor in You think how do you drop the emperor in You think how do you drop the emperor in the ocean? They accidentally spilled him the ocean? They accidentally spilled him the ocean? They accidentally spilled him in the ocean and then they fished him in the ocean and then they fished him in the ocean and then they fished him out but he died. So fortunately they had out but he died. So fortunately they had out but he died. So fortunately they had one more seven-year-old halfb one more seven-year-old halfb one more seven-year-old halfb brotherther. So on Lantau Island, brotherther. So on Lantau Island, brotherther. So on Lantau Island, exactly where the Hong Kong airport is exactly where the Hong Kong airport is exactly where the Hong Kong airport is today, the new well it's not so new today, the new well it's not so new today, the new well it's not so new anymore, but I still think it was the anymore, but I still think it was the anymore, but I still think it was the new airport on Lantau Island. Uh so they new airport on Lantau Island. Uh so they new airport on Lantau Island. Uh so they went there and they had a big coronation went there and they had a big coronation went there and they had a big coronation ceremony and all, but the people there ceremony and all, but the people there ceremony and all, but the people there were not supportive enough. It certainly were not supportive enough. It certainly were not supportive enough. It certainly wasn't Hong Kong then anyway, the delta wasn't Hong Kong then anyway, the delta wasn't Hong Kong then anyway, the delta of the Pearl River. So they they sailed of the Pearl River. So they they sailed of the Pearl River. So they they sailed out farther south to another island and out farther south to another island and out farther south to another island and then they took it over and of course the then they took it over and of course the then they took it over and of course the first thing they did was well we have to first thing they did was well we have to first thing they did was well we have to build a palace.

build a palace. build a palace. >> What? The Mongols are chasing you and >> What? The Mongols are chasing you and >> What? The Mongols are chasing you and you're going to stop and build a palace. you're going to stop and build a palace. you're going to stop and build a palace. >> So these are like the remains of the >> So these are like the remains of the >> So these are like the remains of the Chinese. Chinese. Chinese. >> Yes. The generals and the army and the >> Yes. The generals and the army and the >> Yes. The generals and the army and the navy. navy. navy. >> And there was a real competence issue. >> And there was a real competence issue. >> And there was a real competence issue. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Okay. So they're going to build >> Okay. So they're going to build >> Okay. So they're going to build >> we're going to protect it with a great >> we're going to protect it with a great >> we're going to protect it with a great wall of the sea. Right. wall of the sea. Right. wall of the sea. Right. >> They chained together the boats across >> They chained together the boats across >> They chained together the boats across the entrance to the harbor and they put the entrance to the harbor and they put the entrance to the harbor and they put a palace boat so-called in the middle. a palace boat so-called in the middle. a palace boat so-called in the middle. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> The generals didn't trust their own >> The generals didn't trust their own >> The generals didn't trust their own soldiers enough. So they made all of soldiers enough. So they made all of soldiers enough. So they made all of them leave the island and go to the them leave the island and go to the them leave the island and go to the boats to fight the Mongols. So the boats to fight the Mongols. So the boats to fight the Mongols. So the Mongols arrived and over and over and Mongols arrived and over and over and Mongols arrived and over and over and over they asked them to surrender. You over they asked them to surrender. You over they asked them to surrender. You won't be harmed. All this kind of stuff won't be harmed. All this kind of stuff won't be harmed. All this kind of stuff and all and but the Mongols now took and all and but the Mongols now took and all and but the Mongols now took over the land. So they had the water all over the land. So they had the water all over the land. So they had the water all around them and they had the land and around them and they had the land and around them and they had the land and once the fighting started they could once the fighting started they could once the fighting started they could just shoot down from the highland right just shoot down from the highland right just shoot down from the highland right onto the ships and they've cut the ships onto the ships and they've cut the ships onto the ships and they've cut the ships off from the fresh supply of of wood and off from the fresh supply of of wood and off from the fresh supply of of wood and water. So they can't boil rice. They water. So they can't boil rice. They water. So they can't boil rice. They have to try to eat rice and drink sea have to try to eat rice and drink sea have to try to eat rice and drink sea water. They're all sick as dogs out water. They're all sick as dogs out water. They're all sick as dogs out there. And there. And there. And the leaders refuse to surrender. The the leaders refuse to surrender. The the leaders refuse to surrender. The little boy is there. 7-year-old emperor, little boy is there. 7-year-old emperor, little boy is there. 7-year-old emperor, Bing was his name, with his pet parrot.

Bing was his name, with his pet parrot. Bing was his name, with his pet parrot. That's the only thing he had left in That's the only thing he had left in That's the only thing he had left in life was his pet parrot. life was his pet parrot. life was his pet parrot. And then the Mongols, they offered every And then the Mongols, they offered every And then the Mongols, they offered every opportunity. opportunity. opportunity. But But But the prime minister, socalled, coward the prime minister, socalled, coward the prime minister, socalled, coward that he is, although he's treated as a that he is, although he's treated as a that he is, although he's treated as a hero today in China and throughout their hero today in China and throughout their hero today in China and throughout their history, the coward that he was, he history, the coward that he was, he history, the coward that he was, he said, "We will not disgrace the country said, "We will not disgrace the country said, "We will not disgrace the country by letting them capture the emperor." by letting them capture the emperor." by letting them capture the emperor." So, first he threw his own wife and So, first he threw his own wife and So, first he threw his own wife and children into the water to drown. children into the water to drown. children into the water to drown. And then he took the emperor and held And then he took the emperor and held And then he took the emperor and held him the sevenyear-old. He was seven him the sevenyear-old. He was seven him the sevenyear-old. He was seven years and one month. He had just turned years and one month. He had just turned years and one month. He had just turned seven years old. And jumped into the seven years old. And jumped into the seven years old. And jumped into the water with his child. water with his child. water with his child. A child murderer. He is a child murderer A child murderer. He is a child murderer A child murderer. He is a child murderer to do that. Somehow in the whole ruckus, to do that. Somehow in the whole ruckus, to do that. Somehow in the whole ruckus, the cage came undone with the parrot and the cage came undone with the parrot and the cage came undone with the parrot and the parrot fell in the water, too. the parrot fell in the water, too. the parrot fell in the water, too. >> So the seven-year-old boy and the parrot >> So the seven-year-old boy and the parrot >> So the seven-year-old boy and the parrot died in the water. That was the end of died in the water. That was the end of died in the water. That was the end of one of the greatest dynasties in the one of the greatest dynasties in the one of the greatest dynasties in the history of the world. The Song dynasty.

history of the world. The Song dynasty. history of the world. The Song dynasty. They were intellectually great. They They were intellectually great. They They were intellectually great. They were artistically great. They were were artistically great. They were were artistically great. They were technologically great. They were just technologically great. They were just technologically great. They were just one of the greatest moments of world one of the greatest moments of world one of the greatest moments of world history. And it ends with this coward history. And it ends with this coward history. And it ends with this coward killing a child and his pet parrot in killing a child and his pet parrot in killing a child and his pet parrot in order to save the honor that was order to save the honor that was order to save the honor that was betrayed by this woman. The men lost the betrayed by this woman. The men lost the betrayed by this woman. The men lost the war. The men lost the war. Who's to war. The men lost the war. Who's to war. The men lost the war. Who's to blame? an old oneeyed ugly lady, Empress blame? an old oneeyed ugly lady, Empress blame? an old oneeyed ugly lady, Empress Shier. Shier. Shier. >> Well, the bigger picture there is >> Well, the bigger picture there is >> Well, the bigger picture there is probably is become the institutions probably is become the institutions probably is become the institutions became corrupt and stale and the the became corrupt and stale and the the became corrupt and stale and the the army weakened and the the pol the army weakened and the the pol the army weakened and the the pol the politician the politician class politician the politician class politician the politician class >> probably >> probably >> probably >> has have have lost their skill and >> has have have lost their skill and >> has have have lost their skill and competence at ruling and all that kind competence at ruling and all that kind competence at ruling and all that kind of stuff. And of stuff. And of stuff. And >> all that is true and the and the Chinese >> all that is true and the and the Chinese >> all that is true and the and the Chinese summarize that with losing the mandate summarize that with losing the mandate summarize that with losing the mandate of heaven, of heaven, of heaven, >> right? I mean everybody has their >> right? I mean everybody has their >> right? I mean everybody has their perspective. Maybe if um perspective. Maybe if um perspective. Maybe if um the way you told the story has a very the way you told the story has a very the way you told the story has a very kind of objective kind of objective kind of objective sort of way of revealing the absurdity sort of way of revealing the absurdity sort of way of revealing the absurdity and the cowardice of it. But you know and the cowardice of it. But you know and the cowardice of it. But you know there's probably the Chinese perspective there's probably the Chinese perspective there's probably the Chinese perspective that they tell the story in some kind that they tell the story in some kind that they tell the story in some kind like maintained honor to the last like maintained honor to the last like maintained honor to the last >> yes >> yes >> yes >> to the last moment. They very often most >> to the last moment. They very often most >> to the last moment. They very often most scholars depict Emprecia as the traitor scholars depict Emprecia as the traitor scholars depict Emprecia as the traitor to the country. And I say no that boy to the country. And I say no that boy to the country. And I say no that boy lived on for another 45 years.

lived on for another 45 years. lived on for another 45 years. And so she did not betray the country. And so she did not betray the country. And so she did not betray the country. She protected her emperor that she was She protected her emperor that she was She protected her emperor that she was supposed to protect. supposed to protect. supposed to protect. >> It was the man who killed the child >> It was the man who killed the child >> It was the man who killed the child emperor who killed Young Bing. emperor who killed Young Bing. emperor who killed Young Bing. So what was the lasting impact of uh So what was the lasting impact of uh So what was the lasting impact of uh Kubla Khan unifying China? Kubla Khan unifying China? Kubla Khan unifying China? >> Well yes first of all he had unified >> Well yes first of all he had unified >> Well yes first of all he had unified China in the largest sense of the word China in the largest sense of the word China in the largest sense of the word with Korea, Tibet, Manuria, Mongolia, with Korea, Tibet, Manuria, Mongolia, with Korea, Tibet, Manuria, Mongolia, part of Central Asia. Uh he had unified part of Central Asia. Uh he had unified part of Central Asia. Uh he had unified it but he did so at the expense of his it but he did so at the expense of his it but he did so at the expense of his empire. They didn't recognize him as the empire. They didn't recognize him as the empire. They didn't recognize him as the great emperor and there was great great emperor and there was great great emperor and there was great opposition from the golden horde of opposition from the golden horde of opposition from the golden horde of Russia and also from the the central Russia and also from the the central Russia and also from the the central region which is called the the Chagatid region which is called the the Chagatid region which is called the the Chagatid the descendants of Sagade the second son the descendants of Sagade the second son the descendants of Sagade the second son the Chagatai Empire and then from the the Chagatai Empire and then from the the Chagatai Empire and then from the Ilanate of Persia Ilanate of Persia Ilanate of Persia >> these are the different sort of >> these are the different sort of >> these are the different sort of fracturings of the Mongol fracturings of the Mongol fracturings of the Mongol >> the sons of Jingaskhan >> the sons of Jingaskhan >> the sons of Jingaskhan >> and only the Ilanate were still loyal to >> and only the Ilanate were still loyal to >> and only the Ilanate were still loyal to him but they're so far away him but they're so far away him but they're so far away >> but now has a navy.

>> but now has a navy. >> but now has a navy. >> But this is I mean even the four pieces >> But this is I mean even the four pieces >> But this is I mean even the four pieces the whole thing is gigantic and even the the whole thing is gigantic and even the the whole thing is gigantic and even the pieces are gigantic. pieces are gigantic. pieces are gigantic. >> So I mean it's very hard to keep an >> So I mean it's very hard to keep an >> So I mean it's very hard to keep an empire of this size together. empire of this size together. empire of this size together. >> Yes. But he had China. It was unified >> Yes. But he had China. It was unified >> Yes. But he had China. It was unified under him under him under him and then he he sent out the first and then he he sent out the first and then he he sent out the first expedition to sail directly to Persia. expedition to sail directly to Persia. expedition to sail directly to Persia. There had been trade all throughout There had been trade all throughout There had been trade all throughout thousands of years, but it was usually thousands of years, but it was usually thousands of years, but it was usually porttoport, you know, different porttoport, you know, different porttoport, you know, different merchants trading goods. No, he merchants trading goods. No, he merchants trading goods. No, he organized a great fleet to send a uh a organized a great fleet to send a uh a organized a great fleet to send a uh a queen or princess to become a queen in queen or princess to become a queen in queen or princess to become a queen in the Ilan to marry the Ilhan of Persia. the Ilan to marry the Ilhan of Persia. the Ilan to marry the Ilhan of Persia. It's Persia and Ezra and uh Armenia and It's Persia and Ezra and uh Armenia and It's Persia and Ezra and uh Armenia and Iraq and part of Syria, all of that Iraq and part of Syria, all of that Iraq and part of Syria, all of that area. So he sent organized this and it area. So he sent organized this and it area. So he sent organized this and it so happened that Marco Polo was ready to so happened that Marco Polo was ready to so happened that Marco Polo was ready to go home because they knew Kublakhan was go home because they knew Kublakhan was go home because they knew Kublakhan was about to die and in fact he only had about to die and in fact he only had about to die and in fact he only had about one year left to live and they about one year left to live and they about one year left to live and they wanted to get their riches out before wanted to get their riches out before wanted to get their riches out before they didn't know what's going to happen.

they didn't know what's going to happen. they didn't know what's going to happen. This is a new dynasty. They've been in This is a new dynasty. They've been in This is a new dynasty. They've been in total control of China for one total control of China for one total control of China for one generation generation generation and they didn't know what was going to and they didn't know what was going to and they didn't know what was going to happen. And also just before that there happen. And also just before that there happen. And also just before that there had been a bad sign because Kubla Khan had been a bad sign because Kubla Khan had been a bad sign because Kubla Khan had tried to invade Japan a second time had tried to invade Japan a second time had tried to invade Japan a second time and he had failed a second time. And the and he had failed a second time. And the and he had failed a second time. And the second time I think again he had a second time I think again he had a second time I think again he had a practical purpose and that was he had practical purpose and that was he had practical purpose and that was he had this whole huge song army that now he's this whole huge song army that now he's this whole huge song army that now he's the new enlightened Mongol who doesn't the new enlightened Mongol who doesn't the new enlightened Mongol who doesn't slaughter. So he's got what is he going slaughter. So he's got what is he going slaughter. So he's got what is he going to do? They're not reliable. They're not to do? They're not reliable. They're not to do? They're not reliable. They're not safe. So he sends a bunch of them up safe. So he sends a bunch of them up safe. So he sends a bunch of them up into the Amur River of what's now the into the Amur River of what's now the into the Amur River of what's now the Russian Far East or we call Siberian Russian Far East or we call Siberian Russian Far East or we call Siberian English, but the Russian Far East, the English, but the Russian Far East, the English, but the Russian Far East, the Amur River. Uh he sent expeditions up Amur River. Uh he sent expeditions up Amur River. Uh he sent expeditions up into Tibet exploring options up there, into Tibet exploring options up there, into Tibet exploring options up there, but there wasn't enough room or enough but there wasn't enough room or enough but there wasn't enough room or enough agricultural area for a huge military agricultural area for a huge military agricultural area for a huge military colony. But most of his ships were colony. But most of his ships were colony. But most of his ships were loaded with former prisoners of the war loaded with former prisoners of the war loaded with former prisoners of the war from the Song Dynasty. And they were not from the Song Dynasty. And they were not from the Song Dynasty. And they were not armed. They had hoes and implements for armed. They had hoes and implements for armed. They had hoes and implements for farming. He wanted to create obviously farming. He wanted to create obviously farming. He wanted to create obviously an agricultural military agricultural an agricultural military agricultural an agricultural military agricultural farm in Japan to help feed northern farm in Japan to help feed northern farm in Japan to help feed northern China because it was very important just China because it was very important just China because it was very important just as they were doing with the Ammo River as they were doing with the Ammo River as they were doing with the Ammo River but it was more complicated. So but it was more complicated. So but it was more complicated. So again they lost again they lost again they lost they didn't have it and part of the they didn't have it and part of the they didn't have it and part of the reason is the the expedition was massive reason is the the expedition was massive reason is the the expedition was massive and they organized it in the Mongol and they organized it in the Mongol and they organized it in the Mongol principles of leftwing right-wing

principles of leftwing right-wing principles of leftwing right-wing this didn't work at sea because the left this didn't work at sea because the left this didn't work at sea because the left wing is from Korea. There's Korean ships wing is from Korea. There's Korean ships wing is from Korea. There's Korean ships built up there. The right wing is from built up there. The right wing is from built up there. The right wing is from southern China mostly with ships built southern China mostly with ships built southern China mostly with ships built down there. They're not the same. They down there. They're not the same. They down there. They're not the same. They have a head, but there's no center have a head, but there's no center have a head, but there's no center point. Chingaskhan always had the goal. point. Chingaskhan always had the goal. point. Chingaskhan always had the goal. They called it G. The goal. The center They called it G. The goal. The center They called it G. The goal. The center or or Q L actually goal. But anyway, or or Q L actually goal. But anyway, or or Q L actually goal. But anyway, they he had the center in command. No, they he had the center in command. No, they he had the center in command. No, he sent the two without a clear and they he sent the two without a clear and they he sent the two without a clear and they were arguing with each other, not were arguing with each other, not were arguing with each other, not cooperating, not helping each other, cooperating, not helping each other, cooperating, not helping each other, sabotaging each other. They get there sabotaging each other. They get there sabotaging each other. They get there and once again they have the same and once again they have the same and once again they have the same problems. Even though they've come with problems. Even though they've come with problems. Even though they've come with lots of grenades this time. Again, the lots of grenades this time. Again, the lots of grenades this time. Again, the grenades are exploding. They're they're grenades are exploding. They're they're grenades are exploding. They're they're scaring the horses, you know. It's scaring the horses, you know. It's scaring the horses, you know. It's impressive. And a lot of silk screens impressive. And a lot of silk screens impressive. And a lot of silk screens are made later showing these impressive are made later showing these impressive are made later showing these impressive battles and all, but they lost. And battles and all, but they lost. And battles and all, but they lost. And again, a typhoon happened to be the again, a typhoon happened to be the again, a typhoon happened to be the final the final destruction of the navy. final the final destruction of the navy. final the final destruction of the navy. But I think it's Japan had defeated the But I think it's Japan had defeated the But I think it's Japan had defeated the Mongols. I would say Japanese deserve Mongols. I would say Japanese deserve Mongols. I would say Japanese deserve credit for that victory. And then the credit for that victory. And then the credit for that victory. And then the the sinking of the ships was more caused the sinking of the ships was more caused the sinking of the ships was more caused by the by the typhoon. But already the by the by the typhoon. But already the by the by the typhoon. But already the Japanese had developed good strategies Japanese had developed good strategies Japanese had developed good strategies while the Mongols had been away. They while the Mongols had been away. They while the Mongols had been away. They knew how the Mongols fought and they knew how the Mongols fought and they knew how the Mongols fought and they knew that at night they could fire knew that at night they could fire knew that at night they could fire flaming arrows at the ships, set them on flaming arrows at the ships, set them on flaming arrows at the ships, set them on fire and they were doing great damage.

fire and they were doing great damage. fire and they were doing great damage. So again, Kublakhan lost the invasion of So again, Kublakhan lost the invasion of So again, Kublakhan lost the invasion of Japan. Japan. Japan. But the soldiers were gone. They But the soldiers were gone. They But the soldiers were gone. They drowned. drowned. drowned. He didn't kill them off. It wasn't his He didn't kill them off. It wasn't his He didn't kill them off. It wasn't his deliberate plan, but the problem was deliberate plan, but the problem was deliberate plan, but the problem was solved. solved. solved. It's one of those ironies of history It's one of those ironies of history It's one of those ironies of history that is hard to quite understand. So that is hard to quite understand. So that is hard to quite understand. So this had happened, but then Kublakhan this had happened, but then Kublakhan this had happened, but then Kublakhan was coming to the near the end of life was coming to the near the end of life was coming to the near the end of life and Marco Polo and those wanted to get and Marco Polo and those wanted to get and Marco Polo and those wanted to get out. They're ready to go. And Kubla Khan out. They're ready to go. And Kubla Khan out. They're ready to go. And Kubla Khan allowed them to sail on this expedition allowed them to sail on this expedition allowed them to sail on this expedition with Huxchin was her name, the princess with Huxchin was her name, the princess with Huxchin was her name, the princess Hujin to go to Hujin to go to Hujin to go to Hormuz. Hormuz. Hormuz. And so they went and that began a whole And so they went and that began a whole And so they went and that began a whole system of trade back and forth back and system of trade back and forth back and system of trade back and forth back and forth. Kublakhan died soon after that. forth. Kublakhan died soon after that. forth. Kublakhan died soon after that. His grandson who's not so well respected His grandson who's not so well respected His grandson who's not so well respected in history because he's often called a in history because he's often called a in history because he's often called a drunk, but his name was Timur. tumor and drunk, but his name was Timur. tumor and drunk, but his name was Timur. tumor and but he was a drunk when he was young but but he was a drunk when he was young but but he was a drunk when he was young but his grandfather had him caned a couple his grandfather had him caned a couple his grandfather had him caned a couple times in public and he cured him of times in public and he cured him of times in public and he cured him of drinking and actually he was not a drunk drinking and actually he was not a drunk drinking and actually he was not a drunk later on and he was first he knew later on and he was first he knew later on and he was first he knew reassembled the Mongol Empire he did the reassembled the Mongol Empire he did the reassembled the Mongol Empire he did the golden horde declared loyalty to him golden horde declared loyalty to him golden horde declared loyalty to him recognized him as great Han as emperor recognized him as great Han as emperor recognized him as great Han as emperor of the whole empire the tagat of central of the whole empire the tagat of central of the whole empire the tagat of central uh Asia they declared loyalty to him.

uh Asia they declared loyalty to him. uh Asia they declared loyalty to him. The Ilcarnate was already loyal to him. The Ilcarnate was already loyal to him. The Ilcarnate was already loyal to him. They all declared loyalty. He had They all declared loyalty. He had They all declared loyalty. He had reassembled the empire and he had the reassembled the empire and he had the reassembled the empire and he had the greatest navy in the world. And he sent greatest navy in the world. And he sent greatest navy in the world. And he sent out envoys to every place they had out envoys to every place they had out envoys to every place they had attacked or traded with to say that era attacked or traded with to say that era attacked or traded with to say that era is over. We're no longer attacking is over. We're no longer attacking is over. We're no longer attacking anybody. We're changing from conquest to anybody. We're changing from conquest to anybody. We're changing from conquest to commerce. commerce. commerce. >> We want to trade with you. Come to >> We want to trade with you. Come to >> We want to trade with you. Come to China. Bring your goods. We're going to China. Bring your goods. We're going to China. Bring your goods. We're going to trade with you. He instituted it was trade with you. He instituted it was trade with you. He instituted it was short unfortunately it didn't last short unfortunately it didn't last short unfortunately it didn't last forever. I wish I could have but it was forever. I wish I could have but it was forever. I wish I could have but it was a great era of the exchange of all kinds a great era of the exchange of all kinds a great era of the exchange of all kinds of things going back and forth all the of things going back and forth all the of things going back and forth all the way actually all the way to Africa way actually all the way to Africa way actually all the way to Africa because from Hormuz they had connection because from Hormuz they had connection because from Hormuz they had connection to Somali land and some people say Kenya to Somali land and some people say Kenya to Somali land and some people say Kenya already at that time I'm not sure but already at that time I'm not sure but already at that time I'm not sure but very wide very wide very wide very wide very wide very wide >> so technically he ruled over the the the >> so technically he ruled over the the the >> so technically he ruled over the the the largest size the Mongol Empire ever had largest size the Mongol Empire ever had largest size the Mongol Empire ever had >> yes but although actually the golden >> yes but although actually the golden >> yes but although actually the golden horde of Russia. They were quite horde of Russia. They were quite horde of Russia. They were quite independent by now and he let them be independent by now and he let them be independent by now and he let them be independent but they were loyal to him independent but they were loyal to him independent but they were loyal to him and they were still exchanging back and and they were still exchanging back and and they were still exchanging back and forth all kinds of things. So there were forth all kinds of things. So there were forth all kinds of things. So there were Oettiian soldiers in China.

Oettiian soldiers in China. Oettiian soldiers in China. >> They had a whole contingent of Oetian >> They had a whole contingent of Oetian >> They had a whole contingent of Oetian soldiers there and from Russia from the soldiers there and from Russia from the soldiers there and from Russia from the caucus areas of Russia. caucus areas of Russia. caucus areas of Russia. >> And how do they communicate? Are they >> And how do they communicate? Are they >> And how do they communicate? Are they using like the postal service? think you using like the postal service? think you using like the postal service? think you have to like have to like have to like >> you have to literally deliver the >> you have to literally deliver the >> you have to literally deliver the letters. So over time those groups letters. So over time those groups letters. So over time those groups started intermaring with they were started intermaring with they were started intermaring with they were allowed to intermar the Chinese were not allowed to intermar the Chinese were not allowed to intermar the Chinese were not but they were intermaring with Mongols but they were intermaring with Mongols but they were intermaring with Mongols and they were switching to Mongolian and they were switching to Mongolian and they were switching to Mongolian language slowly. Okay language slowly. Okay language slowly. Okay >> at first I don't know it's it's not >> at first I don't know it's it's not >> at first I don't know it's it's not clear but again Kublakhan thinking in clear but again Kublakhan thinking in clear but again Kublakhan thinking in this internationalist way said okay we this internationalist way said okay we this internationalist way said okay we need a new alphabet for the world. need a new alphabet for the world. need a new alphabet for the world. Everybody in the world writes with one Everybody in the world writes with one Everybody in the world writes with one alphabet. Chinese, Mongolian, Russian, alphabet. Chinese, Mongolian, Russian, alphabet. Chinese, Mongolian, Russian, Arabic, everything. It didn't work, but Arabic, everything. It didn't work, but Arabic, everything. It didn't work, but he tried it for a while and some he tried it for a while and some he tried it for a while and some inscriptions are still there to this inscriptions are still there to this inscriptions are still there to this day. day. day. >> And we should maybe uh briefly mention >> And we should maybe uh briefly mention >> And we should maybe uh briefly mention Marco Polo that you've talked about. So, Marco Polo that you've talked about. So, Marco Polo that you've talked about. So, he is this now famous explorer that he is this now famous explorer that he is this now famous explorer that traversed traversed traversed the continent, the Silk Road, and then the continent, the Silk Road, and then the continent, the Silk Road, and then stayed with Kubla for a while. And I stayed with Kubla for a while. And I stayed with Kubla for a while. And I guess one is one of the primary guess one is one of the primary guess one is one of the primary documenters of everything that's been documenters of everything that's been documenters of everything that's been going on. Uh is there something else going on. Uh is there something else going on. Uh is there something else interesting to say about about Marco interesting to say about about Marco interesting to say about about Marco Polo and about their his interaction Polo and about their his interaction Polo and about their his interaction with Kuban?

with Kuban? with Kuban? >> I like Marco Polo. I use >> I like Marco Polo. I use >> I like Marco Polo. I use >> I use his work a lot. >> I use his work a lot. >> I use his work a lot. >> I find him very reliable. In the areas >> I find him very reliable. In the areas >> I find him very reliable. In the areas where he's not reliable, you can kind of where he's not reliable, you can kind of where he's not reliable, you can kind of tell because he didn't he wasn't there. tell because he didn't he wasn't there. tell because he didn't he wasn't there. But the places he was, he reported a lot But the places he was, he reported a lot But the places he was, he reported a lot of stuff. And so I'm very much indebted of stuff. And so I'm very much indebted of stuff. And so I'm very much indebted to him for a lot of things because with to him for a lot of things because with to him for a lot of things because with something like the princess Hukin and something like the princess Hukin and something like the princess Hukin and also another fighting princess from also another fighting princess from also another fighting princess from Central Asia named Hutalum, he wrote Central Asia named Hutalum, he wrote Central Asia named Hutalum, he wrote about that. But I also needed other about that. But I also needed other about that. But I also needed other sources. So I found if I could find sources. So I found if I could find sources. So I found if I could find Chinese sources or Arab sources or Chinese sources or Arab sources or Chinese sources or Arab sources or something else or Persian to support it, something else or Persian to support it, something else or Persian to support it, then I really felt a lot of confidence then I really felt a lot of confidence then I really felt a lot of confidence with him over time. But pieces were with him over time. But pieces were with him over time. But pieces were romanticized and you have to always romanticized and you have to always romanticized and you have to always discount it but is very good. However, discount it but is very good. However, discount it but is very good. However, I believe the best work written about I believe the best work written about I believe the best work written about Marco Polo aside from his own book which Marco Polo aside from his own book which Marco Polo aside from his own book which was actually written by Rustachello was actually written by Rustachello was actually written by Rustachello dictated in prison in Genua. You know, dictated in prison in Genua. You know, dictated in prison in Genua. You know, in the 20th century, Eugene O'Neal wrote in the 20th century, Eugene O'Neal wrote in the 20th century, Eugene O'Neal wrote a play that became a comedy on Broadway a play that became a comedy on Broadway a play that became a comedy on Broadway called Marco Millions.

called Marco Millions. called Marco Millions. That was both a a play on what he was That was both a a play on what he was That was both a a play on what he was called El Million, the million one called El Million, the million one called El Million, the million one because he had talked about cities of because he had talked about cities of because he had talked about cities of millions of people and about uh money in millions of people and about uh money in millions of people and about uh money in the millions and things that people in the millions and things that people in the millions and things that people in Europe just couldn't believe could Europe just couldn't believe could Europe just couldn't believe could happen. He then published his whole play happen. He then published his whole play happen. He then published his whole play as a book to show people what he really as a book to show people what he really as a book to show people what he really meant. And it was an ironic look at meant. And it was an ironic look at meant. And it was an ironic look at capitalism because this is 20th century capitalism because this is 20th century capitalism because this is 20th century already already already versus the idea of like a philosopher versus the idea of like a philosopher versus the idea of like a philosopher king which he saw in Kublacon. king which he saw in Kublacon. king which he saw in Kublacon. And so Marco Polo becomes a symbol of And so Marco Polo becomes a symbol of And so Marco Polo becomes a symbol of capitalism not at its worst but at its capitalism not at its worst but at its capitalism not at its worst but at its most most most basic basic basic >> and that is like the princess in the >> and that is like the princess in the >> and that is like the princess in the story. This is not in real life but this story. This is not in real life but this story. This is not in real life but this is in the play written by Eugene O'Neal is in the play written by Eugene O'Neal is in the play written by Eugene O'Neal but I think it captures a lot. The but I think it captures a lot. The but I think it captures a lot. The princess Hooken says Marco is an princess Hooken says Marco is an princess Hooken says Marco is an excellent judge of quantity excellent judge of quantity excellent judge of quantity and there are things like that.

and there are things like that. and there are things like that. And then in the play Bayon the great And then in the play Bayon the great And then in the play Bayon the great general general general he talks with Kubla Khan and he said he talks with Kubla Khan and he said he talks with Kubla Khan and he said look these people are dangerous from the look these people are dangerous from the look these people are dangerous from the west we should go conquer them now while west we should go conquer them now while west we should go conquer them now while we can. Kublakhan tells Bayan again in we can. Kublakhan tells Bayan again in we can. Kublakhan tells Bayan again in the play this is fiction but he tells the play this is fiction but he tells the play this is fiction but he tells Bayan they are not worth conquering and Bayan they are not worth conquering and Bayan they are not worth conquering and if we conquer them we will become like if we conquer them we will become like if we conquer them we will become like them. And he said Marco Polo has been in them. And he said Marco Polo has been in them. And he said Marco Polo has been in our land. He has seen everything. He has our land. He has seen everything. He has our land. He has seen everything. He has learned nothing. learned nothing. learned nothing. He has seen everything. He understands He has seen everything. He understands He has seen everything. He understands nothing. nothing. nothing. For me, this was such an important For me, this was such an important For me, this was such an important moment in the history of the world moment in the history of the world moment in the history of the world symbolically symbolically symbolically with Marco Polo and Kubla Khan. The with Marco Polo and Kubla Khan. The with Marco Polo and Kubla Khan. The coming together of two worlds. coming together of two worlds. coming together of two worlds. It could have gone a different way. It It could have gone a different way. It It could have gone a different way. It could have gone a different way. And I could have gone a different way. And I could have gone a different way. And I am, it's not that I'm anti- capitalist. am, it's not that I'm anti- capitalist. am, it's not that I'm anti- capitalist. I'm pro- capitalist. But the way so many I'm pro- capitalist. But the way so many I'm pro- capitalist. But the way so many things worked out, things worked out, things worked out, it was a misstep in history. Maybe we it was a misstep in history. Maybe we it was a misstep in history. Maybe we took the wrong step at that moment and took the wrong step at that moment and took the wrong step at that moment and we could have learned more from we could have learned more from we could have learned more from cooperation.

cooperation. cooperation. >> They didn't quite integrate >> They didn't quite integrate >> They didn't quite integrate successfully. successfully. successfully. >> No. But today >> No. But today >> No. But today we've returned to that. I think the East we've returned to that. I think the East we've returned to that. I think the East and the West are confronting each other and the West are confronting each other and the West are confronting each other again on more equal terms. For a long again on more equal terms. For a long again on more equal terms. For a long time, the west was so dominant and the time, the west was so dominant and the time, the west was so dominant and the east was so downtrodden by colonialism east was so downtrodden by colonialism east was so downtrodden by colonialism and other things and internal rot and and other things and internal rot and and other things and internal rot and other things. But today there's not other things. But today there's not other things. But today there's not necessarily equality, but there's more necessarily equality, but there's more necessarily equality, but there's more of a balance. And which way will we go? of a balance. And which way will we go? of a balance. And which way will we go? >> And again, there's uh a lot of room and >> And again, there's uh a lot of room and >> And again, there's uh a lot of room and a lot of energy for division, for a lot of energy for division, for a lot of energy for division, for misunderstanding. misunderstanding. misunderstanding. uh so versus integration like uh the the uh so versus integration like uh the the uh so versus integration like uh the the east is demonized east is demonized east is demonized in the west and in the west and in the west and one one of the great regrets I have that one one of the great regrets I have that one one of the great regrets I have that I hope to alleviate is just how little I I hope to alleviate is just how little I I hope to alleviate is just how little I like understand like understand like understand China in the east China in the east China in the east >> like just sort of not not just from kind >> like just sort of not not just from kind >> like just sort of not not just from kind of economics politics of economics politics of economics politics you know reading a few books but like you know reading a few books but like you know reading a few books but like the way you've understood and felt the the way you've understood and felt the the way you've understood and felt the Mongolian step Mongolian step Mongolian step >> like understand the Chinese people in >> like understand the Chinese people in >> like understand the Chinese people in that way because it does feel like from that way because it does feel like from that way because it does feel like from that understanding there could be that understanding there could be that understanding there could be integration of ideas.

integration of ideas. integration of ideas. >> You know my work is often classified as >> You know my work is often classified as >> You know my work is often classified as Chinese history which I think is ironic Chinese history which I think is ironic Chinese history which I think is ironic because for me it's always a Mongolian because for me it's always a Mongolian because for me it's always a Mongolian history but for the last book I wrote history but for the last book I wrote history but for the last book I wrote which dealt a lot more with China which dealt a lot more with China which dealt a lot more with China because it's was about Kubla Khan than because it's was about Kubla Khan than because it's was about Kubla Khan than in that book I deliberately did not go in that book I deliberately did not go in that book I deliberately did not go to China. I'd been there numerous times to China. I'd been there numerous times to China. I'd been there numerous times before. I deliberately did not. I'm an before. I deliberately did not. I'm an before. I deliberately did not. I'm an outsider. I do not speak Chinese. I'm outsider. I do not speak Chinese. I'm outsider. I do not speak Chinese. I'm not a Chinese scholar. I never even had not a Chinese scholar. I never even had not a Chinese scholar. I never even had a course in Chinese art or calligraphy a course in Chinese art or calligraphy a course in Chinese art or calligraphy or anything. And I wanted to be very or anything. And I wanted to be very or anything. And I wanted to be very clear. Mine is an outside perspective. clear. Mine is an outside perspective. clear. Mine is an outside perspective. >> But I think it's possible as an outsider >> But I think it's possible as an outsider >> But I think it's possible as an outsider to still have respect to still have respect to still have respect for that culture. Even if I disagree for that culture. Even if I disagree for that culture. Even if I disagree that they appoint this one as a hero and that they appoint this one as a hero and that they appoint this one as a hero and that one as the villain, I disagree and that one as the villain, I disagree and that one as the villain, I disagree and they'll say, "Oh, I'm wrong. I don't they'll say, "Oh, I'm wrong. I don't they'll say, "Oh, I'm wrong. I don't understand their history." And they're understand their history." And they're understand their history." And they're probably right. That's quite possible. probably right. That's quite possible. probably right. That's quite possible. But But But there's an outside view that is there's an outside view that is there's an outside view that is different and tries to be respectful of different and tries to be respectful of different and tries to be respectful of what happens in that part of the world. what happens in that part of the world. what happens in that part of the world. Just as I'm respectful towards Chinghan Just as I'm respectful towards Chinghan Just as I'm respectful towards Chinghan and the Mongol Empire, I respect China and the Mongol Empire, I respect China and the Mongol Empire, I respect China very much. I'm an American. I love the very much. I'm an American. I love the very much. I'm an American. I love the ideals of my country. I love so many ideals of my country. I love so many ideals of my country. I love so many aspects of our culture and there are aspects of our culture and there are aspects of our culture and there are many aspects I don't of course because many aspects I don't of course because many aspects I don't of course because it's impossible to love everything even it's impossible to love everything even it's impossible to love everything even about the members of your own family you about the members of your own family you about the members of your own family you know and know and know and >> I do hope >> I do hope >> I do hope that through understanding one another that through understanding one another that through understanding one another or just making the effort to understand or just making the effort to understand or just making the effort to understand even if we understand wrongly and we're

even if we understand wrongly and we're even if we understand wrongly and we're incorrect in it just to make the effort incorrect in it just to make the effort incorrect in it just to make the effort to understand will help us a lot and the to understand will help us a lot and the to understand will help us a lot and the west has had a long west has had a long west has had a long couple of centuries of extreme arrogance couple of centuries of extreme arrogance couple of centuries of extreme arrogance that they are there to teach the world that they are there to teach the world that they are there to teach the world and I and I and I sometimes dismayed I meet these young sometimes dismayed I meet these young sometimes dismayed I meet these young people all over the world who have come people all over the world who have come people all over the world who have come to help. They're an NGO and they're to help. They're an NGO and they're to help. They're an NGO and they're going to teach the people how to take going to teach the people how to take going to teach the people how to take care of the environment. They're going care of the environment. They're going care of the environment. They're going to teach the women how to exercise their to teach the women how to exercise their to teach the women how to exercise their rights. They're going to bring in micro rights. They're going to bring in micro rights. They're going to bring in micro financing to help liberate people. financing to help liberate people. financing to help liberate people. We are arrogant beyond words. We are arrogant beyond words. We are arrogant beyond words. And we need to be a little bit more And we need to be a little bit more And we need to be a little bit more humble and try to put ourselves on an humble and try to put ourselves on an humble and try to put ourselves on an equal basis with some of these people, equal basis with some of these people, equal basis with some of these people, not a superior basis. not a superior basis. not a superior basis. Beautifully put. Beautifully put. Beautifully put. How did the Mongol Empire come to an How did the Mongol Empire come to an How did the Mongol Empire come to an end? How did it fall?

Despite the fact that Timuro Jetuhan had Despite the fact that Timuro Jetuhan had united the empire at least symbolically united the empire at least symbolically united the empire at least symbolically all of it and they had the trade going all of it and they had the trade going all of it and they had the trade going on the Mongols never adapted well to on the Mongols never adapted well to on the Mongols never adapted well to China and they began having problems in China and they began having problems in China and they began having problems in different areas. So in some areas of the different areas. So in some areas of the different areas. So in some areas of the world they became more like the local world they became more like the local world they became more like the local people. So in central Asia they became people. So in central Asia they became people. So in central Asia they became Muslim and they got more absorbed into Muslim and they got more absorbed into Muslim and they got more absorbed into that world and broke away from the that world and broke away from the that world and broke away from the Mongol examples from before. Russia Mongol examples from before. Russia Mongol examples from before. Russia lingered on longer under Mongol lingered on longer under Mongol lingered on longer under Mongol domination but it got weaker and weaker domination but it got weaker and weaker domination but it got weaker and weaker over time and it was based around the over time and it was based around the over time and it was based around the Vular River but they weakened to the Vular River but they weakened to the Vular River but they weakened to the point that they just became a tributary point that they just became a tributary point that they just became a tributary people minority within a Russian empire. people minority within a Russian empire. people minority within a Russian empire. But the Mongols had left kind of the But the Mongols had left kind of the But the Mongols had left kind of the framework for empire for Russia. That's framework for empire for Russia. That's framework for empire for Russia. That's something the Russians don't want to something the Russians don't want to something the Russians don't want to hear anymore than they want to hear me hear anymore than they want to hear me hear anymore than they want to hear me criticize the end of the Song dynasty. criticize the end of the Song dynasty. criticize the end of the Song dynasty. But it is true that even yam yam is the But it is true that even yam yam is the But it is true that even yam yam is the word that was used for this postal word that was used for this postal word that was used for this postal system and that's the ministries today system and that's the ministries today system and that's the ministries today and in Russia and there many many other and in Russia and there many many other and in Russia and there many many other things in Russia. Just even malic malin things in Russia. Just even malic malin things in Russia. Just even malic malin is a herder.

is a herder. is a herder. mouth is a p is an animal and chin is a mouth is a p is an animal and chin is a mouth is a p is an animal and chin is a person person who takes care of animals person person who takes care of animals person person who takes care of animals you know it's all kinds of influences in you know it's all kinds of influences in you know it's all kinds of influences in Russia that some people want to deny but Russia that some people want to deny but Russia that some people want to deny but there's always a great powerful uh there's always a great powerful uh there's always a great powerful uh strand of of uh research and scholarship strand of of uh research and scholarship strand of of uh research and scholarship in Russia that supports this in Russia that supports this in Russia that supports this understanding of the Mongols and I understanding of the Mongols and I understanding of the Mongols and I depend on them tremendously it's not depend on them tremendously it's not depend on them tremendously it's not just Gumlof is one of the famous ones just Gumlof is one of the famous ones just Gumlof is one of the famous ones but he was a little bit too romantic but he was a little bit too romantic but he was a little bit too romantic with his ideas and all but I depend upon with his ideas and all but I depend upon with his ideas and all but I depend upon on a lot of the research on a lot of the research on a lot of the research done by Russian scholars and by early done by Russian scholars and by early done by Russian scholars and by early German scholars in the 19th century German scholars in the 19th century German scholars in the 19th century under sponsorship of the Tar. under sponsorship of the Tar. under sponsorship of the Tar. >> So I I depend on that work. So you had a >> So I I depend on that work. So you had a >> So I I depend on that work. So you had a great influence there but it was great influence there but it was great influence there but it was weakening. So bit by bit 1368 weakening. So bit by bit 1368 weakening. So bit by bit 1368 the Mongols had become so weak within the Mongols had become so weak within the Mongols had become so weak within China that they were overthrown. But China that they were overthrown. But China that they were overthrown. But they weren't absorbed into China. they weren't absorbed into China. they weren't absorbed into China. The Mongols have been there since 1215 The Mongols have been there since 1215 The Mongols have been there since 1215 to 1368.

to 1368. to 1368. They packed up, went back to Mongolia. They packed up, went back to Mongolia. They packed up, went back to Mongolia. It was just another seasonal migration. It was just another seasonal migration. It was just another seasonal migration. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> You know, it it was just amazing. And >> You know, it it was just amazing. And >> You know, it it was just amazing. And they said, "Okay, we're still the Yuan they said, "Okay, we're still the Yuan they said, "Okay, we're still the Yuan dynasty. We're not giving you the seals. dynasty. We're not giving you the seals. dynasty. We're not giving you the seals. We're not acknowledging the Ming." And We're not acknowledging the Ming." And We're not acknowledging the Ming." And they never did throughout the whole of they never did throughout the whole of they never did throughout the whole of the Ming. In fact, they went down one the Ming. In fact, they went down one the Ming. In fact, they went down one time and captured the Ming Emperor. took time and captured the Ming Emperor. took time and captured the Ming Emperor. took him back to Mongolia and then they tried him back to Mongolia and then they tried him back to Mongolia and then they tried to ransen him and the Chinese said, "No, to ransen him and the Chinese said, "No, to ransen him and the Chinese said, "No, we're going to appoint another emperor." we're going to appoint another emperor." we're going to appoint another emperor." So the Mongols decided, "Okay, So the Mongols decided, "Okay, So the Mongols decided, "Okay, the worst thing we can do to the Chinese the worst thing we can do to the Chinese the worst thing we can do to the Chinese is give them back the old emperor." So is give them back the old emperor." So is give them back the old emperor." So you had two emperors, you know, back. you had two emperors, you know, back. you had two emperors, you know, back. Okay, let them work it out, you know, Okay, let them work it out, you know, Okay, let them work it out, you know, and the empire and the empire and the empire just weakened from internal reasons for just weakened from internal reasons for just weakened from internal reasons for the Mongols, but some external things the Mongols, but some external things the Mongols, but some external things from nature. And I think that was the from nature. And I think that was the from nature. And I think that was the great plague. great plague. great plague. You know, everything in history, You know, everything in history, You know, everything in history, everything that's good comes with everything that's good comes with everything that's good comes with something underneath it that's bad. And something underneath it that's bad. And something underneath it that's bad. And everything that's bad seems to have everything that's bad seems to have everything that's bad seems to have something underneath that's sometimes something underneath that's sometimes something underneath that's sometimes works out good in a way. But, uh, this works out good in a way. But, uh, this works out good in a way. But, uh, this great system that united, it's called great system that united, it's called great system that united, it's called the yam or or to or to that it united the yam or or to or to that it united the yam or or to or to that it united everything. People could move back and everything. People could move back and everything. People could move back and forth quickly that it could also take forth quickly that it could also take forth quickly that it could also take the plague out of southern China into the plague out of southern China into the plague out of southern China into all parts of the world. And I do think all parts of the world. And I do think all parts of the world. And I do think that's what happened. And uh the plague that's what happened. And uh the plague that's what happened. And uh the plague destroyed the Mongol system. And if all destroyed the Mongol system. And if all destroyed the Mongol system. And if all of these people are ruled by Mongols of these people are ruled by Mongols of these people are ruled by Mongols because they're benefiting so much from because they're benefiting so much from because they're benefiting so much from this system and now the system

this system and now the system this system and now the system collapses. collapses. collapses. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> You don't need the empire anymore. >> You don't need the empire anymore. >> You don't need the empire anymore. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> So it just fell apart after 1368. The >> So it just fell apart after 1368. The >> So it just fell apart after 1368. The empire just fell apart. And most of them empire just fell apart. And most of them empire just fell apart. And most of them stay stayed in uh stay stayed in uh stay stayed in uh Persia and Iran and uh Afghanistan. The Persia and Iran and uh Afghanistan. The Persia and Iran and uh Afghanistan. The Hazara people are still descended from Hazara people are still descended from Hazara people are still descended from the army there. the army there. the army there. And then in Russia, some of them stayed. And then in Russia, some of them stayed. And then in Russia, some of them stayed. But then finally in the time of But then finally in the time of But then finally in the time of Katherine the Great, a lot of them Katherine the Great, a lot of them Katherine the Great, a lot of them returned a little bit. They had been returned a little bit. They had been returned a little bit. They had been there for hundreds of years and then there for hundreds of years and then there for hundreds of years and then they returned to Mongolia they returned to Mongolia they returned to Mongolia uh in the 1700s. uh in the 1700s. uh in the 1700s. And so many Mongols came home. They were And so many Mongols came home. They were And so many Mongols came home. They were still Mongols despite hundreds of years still Mongols despite hundreds of years still Mongols despite hundreds of years of exposure to other cultures. They came of exposure to other cultures. They came of exposure to other cultures. They came back to their tent and squatting around back to their tent and squatting around back to their tent and squatting around the fire and drinking fermented milk and the fire and drinking fermented milk and the fire and drinking fermented milk and eating dried curds. eating dried curds. eating dried curds. >> It's interesting that the the the >> It's interesting that the the the >> It's interesting that the the the Mongolian spirit is so strong that it uh Mongolian spirit is so strong that it uh Mongolian spirit is so strong that it uh persists.

persists. persists. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Through centuries. >> Through centuries. >> Through centuries. >> Yes. and they just return right back on >> Yes. and they just return right back on >> Yes. and they just return right back on the horse riding in the open step. the horse riding in the open step. the horse riding in the open step. >> Yeah. Well, was it was actually very >> Yeah. Well, was it was actually very >> Yeah. Well, was it was actually very difficult because they were a little bit difficult because they were a little bit difficult because they were a little bit lazy and they weren't so good with doing lazy and they weren't so good with doing lazy and they weren't so good with doing the task and so uh it it became the task and so uh it it became the task and so uh it it became difficult actually to support so many difficult actually to support so many difficult actually to support so many people coming home uh and eating up all people coming home uh and eating up all people coming home uh and eating up all the animals. The Mongols in China had the animals. The Mongols in China had the animals. The Mongols in China had been used to just eating. They hadn't been used to just eating. They hadn't been used to just eating. They hadn't been producing much for 150 years. been producing much for 150 years. been producing much for 150 years. So just to return to Djangghaskhan So just to return to Djangghaskhan So just to return to Djangghaskhan and we talked about Dan Carlin and Dan and we talked about Dan Carlin and Dan and we talked about Dan Carlin and Dan Carlin said that Carlin said that Carlin said that Djangis Khan's army was the greatest Djangis Khan's army was the greatest Djangis Khan's army was the greatest military force in history. And many military force in history. And many military force in history. And many other historians agree that before other historians agree that before other historians agree that before rifles came into popular use, Jenghask rifles came into popular use, Jenghask rifles came into popular use, Jenghask Khan would basically beat every single Khan would basically beat every single Khan would basically beat every single army, including Napoleon. And you army, including Napoleon. And you army, including Napoleon. And you mentioned the samurai, the whole formal mentioned the samurai, the whole formal mentioned the samurai, the whole formal setup. Same with Napoleon. There's just setup. Same with Napoleon. There's just setup. Same with Napoleon. There's just there's a whole, you know, like, you there's a whole, you know, like, you there's a whole, you know, like, you know, several hours to set up the chess know, several hours to set up the chess know, several hours to set up the chess pieces on the military board. I mean, pieces on the military board. I mean, pieces on the military board. I mean, you can just imagine what Jenis Khan and you can just imagine what Jenis Khan and you can just imagine what Jenis Khan and the the the dynamism, the the the dynamism, the the the dynamism, >> the the speed of everything, what that >> the the speed of everything, what that >> the the speed of everything, what that would do to Napoleon. So would do to Napoleon. So would do to Napoleon. So uh I guess the question is where uh do uh I guess the question is where uh do uh I guess the question is where uh do you agree with that uh notion that you agree with that uh notion that you agree with that uh notion that Jenghaskhan's army is the greatest Jenghaskhan's army is the greatest Jenghaskhan's army is the greatest military force in history?

military force in history? military force in history? >> Short answer is yes. Absolutely. No >> Short answer is yes. Absolutely. No >> Short answer is yes. Absolutely. No other power in the history of the world other power in the history of the world other power in the history of the world has conquered Russia and China and has conquered Russia and China and has conquered Russia and China and Persia and Central Asia and Turkey and Persia and Central Asia and Turkey and Persia and Central Asia and Turkey and Korea. Korea. Korea. No power in the world has done that. Not No power in the world has done that. Not No power in the world has done that. Not Alexander, not the Romans. Nobody will Alexander, not the Romans. Nobody will Alexander, not the Romans. Nobody will ever do it again. Nobody's going to ever do it again. Nobody's going to ever do it again. Nobody's going to conquer China and Russia again and rule conquer China and Russia again and rule conquer China and Russia again and rule both countries. It's just not going to both countries. It's just not going to both countries. It's just not going to happen. happen. happen. >> What lessons I mean can you take from >> What lessons I mean can you take from >> What lessons I mean can you take from that's applicable to modern warfare? that's applicable to modern warfare? that's applicable to modern warfare? >> Oh, I think there's a very good lesson. >> Oh, I think there's a very good lesson. >> Oh, I think there's a very good lesson. And the Mongols took Iraq, they took And the Mongols took Iraq, they took And the Mongols took Iraq, they took Baghdad, they held it. The Americans, Baghdad, they held it. The Americans, Baghdad, they held it. The Americans, we followed the exact opposite strategy we followed the exact opposite strategy we followed the exact opposite strategy of the Mongols. of the Mongols. of the Mongols. Mongol strategy is first you take the Mongol strategy is first you take the Mongol strategy is first you take the countryside. They're country people. countryside. They're country people. countryside. They're country people. They think in terms of countryside. You They think in terms of countryside. You They think in terms of countryside. You take the countryside, you occupy the take the countryside, you occupy the take the countryside, you occupy the countryside, and you cut off the city.

countryside, and you cut off the city. countryside, and you cut off the city. It cannot live without the countryside. It cannot live without the countryside. It cannot live without the countryside. And that's how they did it. every time And that's how they did it. every time And that's how they did it. every time they would come in as I say in some they would come in as I say in some they would come in as I say in some cases two two years in advance to clear cases two two years in advance to clear cases two two years in advance to clear people out so they would have room for people out so they would have room for people out so they would have room for their horses and have pasture for their their horses and have pasture for their their horses and have pasture for their horses and all and you take the small horses and all and you take the small horses and all and you take the small towns and then the small cities and then towns and then the small cities and then towns and then the small cities and then the last one is the big city Americans the last one is the big city Americans the last one is the big city Americans they said no we're going to take Baghdad they said no we're going to take Baghdad they said no we're going to take Baghdad we're going to bomb Baghdad we're going we're going to bomb Baghdad we're going we're going to bomb Baghdad we're going to have this shock and awe we're going to have this shock and awe we're going to have this shock and awe we're going to mo go in we conquer the country from to mo go in we conquer the country from to mo go in we conquer the country from Baghdad so they go in they get trapped Baghdad so they go in they get trapped Baghdad so they go in they get trapped in their little tiny green zone they in their little tiny green zone they in their little tiny green zone they never conquer Iraq never conquer Iraq never conquer Iraq the strongest army in the world. You the strongest army in the world. You the strongest army in the world. You know, this is something that worked in know, this is something that worked in know, this is something that worked in Europe. World War II, yes, we bombed the Europe. World War II, yes, we bombed the Europe. World War II, yes, we bombed the cities and we took the city because that cities and we took the city because that cities and we took the city because that was the city, the center of production was the city, the center of production was the city, the center of production for the modern era. But the countryside for the modern era. But the countryside for the modern era. But the countryside is the place that produces the food. The is the place that produces the food. The is the place that produces the food. The Mongols were very aware of that and Mongols were very aware of that and Mongols were very aware of that and supplies the water. You cut off the supplies the water. You cut off the supplies the water. You cut off the water from the city, you cut off the water from the city, you cut off the water from the city, you cut off the food from the city, what's the city food from the city, what's the city food from the city, what's the city going to do? They're going to surrender. going to do? They're going to surrender. going to do? They're going to surrender. The Americans were applying something The Americans were applying something The Americans were applying something that worked in Western Europe to conquer that worked in Western Europe to conquer that worked in Western Europe to conquer Germany.

Germany. Germany. It did not work to conquer Iraq or It did not work to conquer Iraq or It did not work to conquer Iraq or Vietnam or even Northern Korea or Vietnam or even Northern Korea or Vietnam or even Northern Korea or Cambodia or Laos or Syria or God know it Cambodia or Laos or Syria or God know it Cambodia or Laos or Syria or God know it worked only in Grenada. I think that's worked only in Grenada. I think that's worked only in Grenada. I think that's the only in my lifetime that's the only the only in my lifetime that's the only the only in my lifetime that's the only successful war we had. Lasted a couple successful war we had. Lasted a couple successful war we had. Lasted a couple of hours we went in conquered the little of hours we went in conquered the little of hours we went in conquered the little tiny island. tiny island. tiny island. Otherwise, we've been chased out of Otherwise, we've been chased out of Otherwise, we've been chased out of every country. We've lost it. Tail every country. We've lost it. Tail every country. We've lost it. Tail between our legs. between our legs. between our legs. We dropped more bombs on Cambodia than We dropped more bombs on Cambodia than We dropped more bombs on Cambodia than we dropped on Germany. That's hard to believe. Hard to believe. That's hard to believe. Hard to believe. We dropped more bombs on Cambodia than We dropped more bombs on Cambodia than We dropped more bombs on Cambodia than on Germany. We did nothing. Because on Germany. We did nothing. Because on Germany. We did nothing. Because Germany, you destroy the cities, the Germany, you destroy the cities, the Germany, you destroy the cities, the people surrender. Don's gone. Frankfurt, people surrender. Don's gone. Frankfurt, people surrender. Don's gone. Frankfurt, Footsburg, Berlin. Uh, in Cambodia, you Footsburg, Berlin. Uh, in Cambodia, you Footsburg, Berlin. Uh, in Cambodia, you can bomb the countryside forever. can bomb the countryside forever. can bomb the countryside forever. You can kill the people, and they did. You can kill the people, and they did. You can kill the people, and they did. You can use chemical warfare, and they You can use chemical warfare, and they You can use chemical warfare, and they did.

did. did. And you could still go into the eastern And you could still go into the eastern And you could still go into the eastern part of Cambodia, and part of Cambodia, and part of Cambodia, and you could go to large areas where you you could go to large areas where you you could go to large areas where you don't hear birds singing because of the don't hear birds singing because of the don't hear birds singing because of the chemical warfare and of American bombs. chemical warfare and of American bombs. chemical warfare and of American bombs. So, we still do it, but we don't want to So, we still do it, but we don't want to So, we still do it, but we don't want to admit it, and we don't want to go in to admit it, and we don't want to go in to admit it, and we don't want to go in to win. In World War II, the Americans did win. In World War II, the Americans did win. In World War II, the Americans did have unconditional surrender. Well, I have unconditional surrender. Well, I have unconditional surrender. Well, I mean, you can support the war, not mean, you can support the war, not mean, you can support the war, not support the war. We did it right. We did support the war. We did it right. We did support the war. We did it right. We did it wrong. These are all issues that it wrong. These are all issues that it wrong. These are all issues that people can argue, but we had a clear people can argue, but we had a clear people can argue, but we had a clear policy. We go into Afghanistan, we're policy. We go into Afghanistan, we're policy. We go into Afghanistan, we're fighting terror. fighting terror. fighting terror. >> We're going to bring democracy and we're >> We're going to bring democracy and we're >> We're going to bring democracy and we're going to free the women. going to free the women. going to free the women. What? I was absolute sheer insanity the What? I was absolute sheer insanity the What? I was absolute sheer insanity the things that we did. And we killed things that we did. And we killed things that we did. And we killed people. Not only did we use chemical people. Not only did we use chemical people. Not only did we use chemical warfare and kill a lot of people in warfare and kill a lot of people in warfare and kill a lot of people in Vietnam and Laos and and Cambodia. We Vietnam and Laos and and Cambodia. We Vietnam and Laos and and Cambodia. We killed American soldiers. We killed killed American soldiers. We killed killed American soldiers. We killed American soldiers. And my father was American soldiers. And my father was American soldiers. And my father was one. He died from Agent Orange disease.

one. He died from Agent Orange disease. one. He died from Agent Orange disease. Oh, but that doesn't count. Oh, but that doesn't count. Oh, but that doesn't count. He didn't die on the battlefield and we He didn't die on the battlefield and we He didn't die on the battlefield and we didn't mean to kill him. It doesn't didn't mean to kill him. It doesn't didn't mean to kill him. It doesn't count. Modern warfare is brutal count. Modern warfare is brutal count. Modern warfare is brutal and we just paper over it sometimes, you and we just paper over it sometimes, you and we just paper over it sometimes, you know. know. know. >> Can you explain Agent Orange? >> Can you explain Agent Orange? >> Can you explain Agent Orange? >> It was designed to kill all vegetation. >> It was designed to kill all vegetation. >> It was designed to kill all vegetation. This is going to be a humane way. We're This is going to be a humane way. We're This is going to be a humane way. We're going to kill all the vegetation in the going to kill all the vegetation in the going to kill all the vegetation in the jungle and that way they can stop moving jungle and that way they can stop moving jungle and that way they can stop moving the army through the jungle and they can the army through the jungle and they can the army through the jungle and they can stop the supplies from coming. That was stop the supplies from coming. That was stop the supplies from coming. That was American strategy. American strategy. American strategy. Yeah, Henry Kissinger, Nobel Prize Yeah, Henry Kissinger, Nobel Prize Yeah, Henry Kissinger, Nobel Prize winner. He is now resting in hell is winner. He is now resting in hell is winner. He is now resting in hell is exactly where he belongs for what he did exactly where he belongs for what he did exactly where he belongs for what he did to Vietnam, Laos, and Cambodia. The to Vietnam, Laos, and Cambodia. The to Vietnam, Laos, and Cambodia. The bombing was just absolutely horrendous. bombing was just absolutely horrendous. bombing was just absolutely horrendous. So, Agent Orange comes in, they So, Agent Orange comes in, they So, Agent Orange comes in, they defoliated, which means they wiped out defoliated, which means they wiped out defoliated, which means they wiped out the crops. So, people are starving, the crops. So, people are starving, the crops. So, people are starving, literally in the case of Cambodia, literally in the case of Cambodia, literally in the case of Cambodia, starving to death. The animals are being starving to death. The animals are being starving to death. The animals are being killed and deformed children are being killed and deformed children are being killed and deformed children are being born to this day. And American soldiers born to this day. And American soldiers born to this day. And American soldiers died by the thousands. Not immediately, died by the thousands. Not immediately, died by the thousands. Not immediately, not on the not on the battlefield, not not on the not on the battlefield, not not on the not on the battlefield, not right there. They go home, they have the right there. They go home, they have the right there. They go home, they have the disease, they linger, they take the disease, they linger, they take the disease, they linger, they take the whole family down with them in an whole family down with them in an whole family down with them in an emotional trauma of becoming slowly emotional trauma of becoming slowly emotional trauma of becoming slowly paralyzed and dying.

paralyzed and dying. paralyzed and dying. We did that to our own people. So yeah, We did that to our own people. So yeah, We did that to our own people. So yeah, warfare warfare warfare I don't think we're any more humane with I don't think we're any more humane with I don't think we're any more humane with it any better today than in the past. it any better today than in the past. it any better today than in the past. It's just we can hide parts of it more It's just we can hide parts of it more It's just we can hide parts of it more easily and deny it more easily. easily and deny it more easily. easily and deny it more easily. If you're killed by a Mongol, it's very If you're killed by a Mongol, it's very If you're killed by a Mongol, it's very clear you're killed by a Mongol. You're clear you're killed by a Mongol. You're clear you're killed by a Mongol. You're killed by friendly fire in America and killed by friendly fire in America and killed by friendly fire in America and war, it's a different matter. It seems war, it's a different matter. It seems war, it's a different matter. It seems that um that um that um what people mean when they say that war what people mean when they say that war what people mean when they say that war is hell that in some deep sense is hell that in some deep sense is hell that in some deep sense everybody loses no matter the narrative everybody loses no matter the narrative everybody loses no matter the narrative you put on top of it. you put on top of it. you put on top of it. >> Yes. Yes. >> Yes. Yes. >> Yes. Yes. I'm not a pacifist again but I I think I'm not a pacifist again but I I think I'm not a pacifist again but I I think war is acceptable in some situations but war is acceptable in some situations but war is acceptable in some situations but the more controlled it is the better. the more controlled it is the better. the more controlled it is the better. And my And my And my my effort is not to my effort is not to my effort is not to do away with all the things that do away with all the things that do away with all the things that happened under Chingis Han with the happened under Chingis Han with the happened under Chingis Han with the brutality and all like that, but it's to brutality and all like that, but it's to brutality and all like that, but it's to measure it against what goes on today in measure it against what goes on today in measure it against what goes on today in the world today. And we have different the world today. And we have different the world today. And we have different images. There are two images of Chingis images. There are two images of Chingis images. There are two images of Chingis Han. One is our image. He's a barbarian Han. One is our image. He's a barbarian Han. One is our image. He's a barbarian on a horseback killing people and raping on a horseback killing people and raping on a horseback killing people and raping women all the time. The other image is women all the time. The other image is women all the time. The other image is the Mongolian image. And when they the Mongolian image. And when they the Mongolian image. And when they finally built an official statue of him finally built an official statue of him finally built an official statue of him in the in this century for the uh 800th in the in this century for the uh 800th in the in this century for the uh 800th anniversary of his founding of Mongolia, anniversary of his founding of Mongolia, anniversary of his founding of Mongolia, they had to think about how to present they had to think about how to present they had to think about how to present him to the world and to themselves. And

him to the world and to themselves. And him to the world and to themselves. And they chose the Lincoln Memorial as the they chose the Lincoln Memorial as the they chose the Lincoln Memorial as the model. He was the late great log river model. He was the late great log river model. He was the late great log river of the Mongol nation. And so he's seated of the Mongol nation. And so he's seated of the Mongol nation. And so he's seated there in front of the Mongolian there in front of the Mongolian there in front of the Mongolian Parliament. Parliament. Parliament. There's another statue that's better There's another statue that's better There's another statue that's better known, but it was a private enterprise known, but it was a private enterprise known, but it was a private enterprise that created him on horseback, but not that created him on horseback, but not that created him on horseback, but not with a weapon, but he's on horseback out with a weapon, but he's on horseback out with a weapon, but he's on horseback out in the countryside. But the official one in the countryside. But the official one in the countryside. But the official one from the government is Chingis Han from the government is Chingis Han from the government is Chingis Han seated like Abraham Lincoln. And they seated like Abraham Lincoln. And they seated like Abraham Lincoln. And they issued stamps to show that he is the issued stamps to show that he is the issued stamps to show that he is the great lawgiver great lawgiver great lawgiver >> and uh the truth is somewhere in >> and uh the truth is somewhere in >> and uh the truth is somewhere in between. between. between. >> I suppose. >> I suppose. >> I suppose. >> Yeah. or depending on where you are and >> Yeah. or depending on where you are and >> Yeah. or depending on where you are and how you want to see it, you know. how you want to see it, you know. how you want to see it, you know. >> Yeah, >> Yeah, >> Yeah, >> there are many things that happened that >> there are many things that happened that >> there are many things that happened that were terrible and horrible. And for were terrible and horrible. And for were terrible and horrible. And for people who lose a war, it's going to people who lose a war, it's going to people who lose a war, it's going to always be terrible and horrible. always be terrible and horrible. always be terrible and horrible. >> Yeah. Uh let's return back to >> Yeah. Uh let's return back to >> Yeah. Uh let's return back to Jenghaskhan's life and the end of it. Jenghaskhan's life and the end of it. Jenghaskhan's life and the end of it. How and where did he die?

How and where did he die? How and where did he die? After conquering the Hanism Empire in After conquering the Hanism Empire in After conquering the Hanism Empire in Central Asia, Chinghan returned and then Central Asia, Chinghan returned and then Central Asia, Chinghan returned and then they had a great what they called Nadam, they had a great what they called Nadam, they had a great what they called Nadam, a great celebration that went on for a a great celebration that went on for a a great celebration that went on for a whole summer just about and they had so whole summer just about and they had so whole summer just about and they had so much wealth to distribute to everybody much wealth to distribute to everybody much wealth to distribute to everybody and everybody is being given all kinds and everybody is being given all kinds and everybody is being given all kinds of things, you know, for uh what they of things, you know, for uh what they of things, you know, for uh what they have done and including the people who have done and including the people who have done and including the people who helped saved him when he was in the in helped saved him when he was in the in helped saved him when he was in the in the kank in the in the ox yoke. Uh they the kank in the in the ox yoke. Uh they the kank in the in the ox yoke. Uh they were rewarded with everybody was were rewarded with everybody was were rewarded with everybody was rewarded. It was a great time. But the rewarded. It was a great time. But the rewarded. It was a great time. But the first place he had attacked outside was first place he had attacked outside was first place he had attacked outside was the Tangut nation. And they had sworn the Tangut nation. And they had sworn the Tangut nation. And they had sworn allegiance to him. And then when he went allegiance to him. And then when he went allegiance to him. And then when he went off to the Middle East, they refused to off to the Middle East, they refused to off to the Middle East, they refused to send troops. send troops. send troops. He didn't forget that he's going back to He didn't forget that he's going back to He didn't forget that he's going back to the Tangut nation and he's going to the Tangut nation and he's going to the Tangut nation and he's going to conquer them again. As he was crossing conquer them again. As he was crossing conquer them again. As he was crossing the Gobi, which takes a a while, and the Gobi, which takes a a while, and the Gobi, which takes a a while, and you're crossing the Gobi, he's was you're crossing the Gobi, he's was you're crossing the Gobi, he's was distracted a little bit by hunting the distracted a little bit by hunting the distracted a little bit by hunting the Hulan, which is the wild. We say the Hulan, which is the wild. We say the Hulan, which is the wild. We say the wild ass or I used to say wild horse. It wild ass or I used to say wild horse. It wild ass or I used to say wild horse. It sounds a little better. But uh the hulan sounds a little better. But uh the hulan sounds a little better. But uh the hulan to say hulan of the goi. He was off to say hulan of the goi. He was off to say hulan of the goi. He was off hunting hoolan. He fell from his horse hunting hoolan. He fell from his horse hunting hoolan. He fell from his horse and he injured his leg very badly and he and he injured his leg very badly and he and he injured his leg very badly and he seemed to decline from that point and it seemed to decline from that point and it seemed to decline from that point and it took some number of months took some number of months took some number of months before August of 1227. He was very much before August of 1227. He was very much before August of 1227. He was very much near the end of life. Uh you can read near the end of life. Uh you can read near the end of life. Uh you can read online the exact date and it's all very online the exact date and it's all very online the exact date and it's all very specific but the truth is we don't know specific but the truth is we don't know specific but the truth is we don't know exactly which day he died in that time

exactly which day he died in that time exactly which day he died in that time because his one of his wives was running because his one of his wives was running because his one of his wives was running the camp and they were keeping it secret the camp and they were keeping it secret the camp and they were keeping it secret until the defeat of the Tangut was until the defeat of the Tangut was until the defeat of the Tangut was completed and the Tangut offered all completed and the Tangut offered all completed and the Tangut offered all kinds of things to for the Mongols to go kinds of things to for the Mongols to go kinds of things to for the Mongols to go away again the second time and Chinghan away again the second time and Chinghan away again the second time and Chinghan had told his family no except nothing had told his family no except nothing had told his family no except nothing and then when they surrender you kill and then when they surrender you kill and then when they surrender you kill the royal family, kill them all. So that the royal family, kill them all. So that the royal family, kill them all. So that the idea they were they were Buddhist the idea they were they were Buddhist the idea they were they were Buddhist people and the Tanguts were Buddhist and people and the Tanguts were Buddhist and people and the Tanguts were Buddhist and uh the idea was usually you can be uh the idea was usually you can be uh the idea was usually you can be reborn into your own family but he said reborn into your own family but he said reborn into your own family but he said no you kill off the whole family so they no you kill off the whole family so they no you kill off the whole family so they can't be reborn. So he died there. So he died there. >> How was his successor chosen? Oh, the >> How was his successor chosen? Oh, the >> How was his successor chosen? Oh, the succession issue was always difficult. succession issue was always difficult. succession issue was always difficult. He did not have the right to appoint a He did not have the right to appoint a He did not have the right to appoint a successor that was not the Mongol way. successor that was not the Mongol way. successor that was not the Mongol way. He could nominate somebody.

He could nominate somebody. He could nominate somebody. So before he set off for the Middle So before he set off for the Middle So before he set off for the Middle Eastern campaign, Eastern campaign, Eastern campaign, one of his wives said to him, you know, one of his wives said to him, you know, one of his wives said to him, you know, even the biggest tree falls. even the biggest tree falls. even the biggest tree falls. Uh you've got to make a plan and talk to Uh you've got to make a plan and talk to Uh you've got to make a plan and talk to your sons about the future. So he did he your sons about the future. So he did he your sons about the future. So he did he called the sons together. So this is Zut called the sons together. So this is Zut called the sons together. So this is Zut the oldest boy who was born while the the oldest boy who was born while the the oldest boy who was born while the father was allied with his and Jamuk and father was allied with his and Jamuk and father was allied with his and Jamuk and he was named visitor Zut. he was named visitor Zut. he was named visitor Zut. And then uh the next one was Chagadai And then uh the next one was Chagadai And then uh the next one was Chagadai and the next one was and the next one was and the next one was and uh the next one was Tur the father and uh the next one was Tur the father and uh the next one was Tur the father of of Kublakhan but he was still alive of of Kublakhan but he was still alive of of Kublakhan but he was still alive at this point. Uh so all four of them at this point. Uh so all four of them at this point. Uh so all four of them came. So Chingaskhan explained to them came. So Chingaskhan explained to them came. So Chingaskhan explained to them he wanted to talk about the succession he wanted to talk about the succession he wanted to talk about the succession and to get some consensus from them and to get some consensus from them and to get some consensus from them about the succession. And so he said the about the succession. And so he said the about the succession. And so he said the Mongols always call on people to speak Mongols always call on people to speak Mongols always call on people to speak by order of age. They also serve tea or by order of age. They also serve tea or by order of age. They also serve tea or food, anything by order of age. It's food, anything by order of age. It's food, anything by order of age. It's always done that way from then until always done that way from then until always done that way from then until now. So he called first on Zut and he now. So he called first on Zut and he now. So he called first on Zut and he said what do you say Zuch? Chinghan said what do you say Zuch? Chinghan said what do you say Zuch? Chinghan favored Zut. This is the one who is favored Zut. This is the one who is favored Zut. This is the one who is questionable paternity but he always questionable paternity but he always questionable paternity but he always favored him.

favored him. favored him. >> You know the youngest Tulu was too >> You know the youngest Tulu was too >> You know the youngest Tulu was too hotheaded. A good day was a heavy hotheaded. A good day was a heavy hotheaded. A good day was a heavy drinker. Chagade was very rigid about drinker. Chagade was very rigid about drinker. Chagade was very rigid about the law of the Mongols and all you know the law of the Mongols and all you know the law of the Mongols and all you know but he thought he seemed to favor Zut as but he thought he seemed to favor Zut as but he thought he seemed to favor Zut as a more reasonable good warrior but a more reasonable good warrior but a more reasonable good warrior but reasonable person. But he called on Zut reasonable person. But he called on Zut reasonable person. But he called on Zut my son speak my son speak my son speak the second one who believed in Mongol the second one who believed in Mongol the second one who believed in Mongol law supposedly. He jumped up and he said law supposedly. He jumped up and he said law supposedly. He jumped up and he said this is when he accused his father of this is when he accused his father of this is when he accused his father of all kinds of he said how can you call on all kinds of he said how can you call on all kinds of he said how can you call on this Mongol this merket bastard if you this Mongol this merket bastard if you this Mongol this merket bastard if you call on him first that means you want call on him first that means you want call on him first that means you want him to be the great Khan he should not him to be the great Khan he should not him to be the great Khan he should not be the great Khan of the Mongol Empire be the great Khan of the Mongol Empire be the great Khan of the Mongol Empire is his Mongol Empire now on and you know is his Mongol Empire now on and you know is his Mongol Empire now on and you know you can imagine kind of scene well you can imagine kind of scene well you can imagine kind of scene well Chasan is the greatest ruler in the Chasan is the greatest ruler in the Chasan is the greatest ruler in the world he's sitting there being lectured world he's sitting there being lectured world he's sitting there being lectured by his second son. by his second son. by his second son. And this is when he gave that impassion And this is when he gave that impassion And this is when he gave that impassion speech to his now in the actually the speech to his now in the actually the speech to his now in the actually the way the secret history it makes it look way the secret history it makes it look way the secret history it makes it look like it was his assistant speaker who like it was his assistant speaker who like it was his assistant speaker who said it because very often the great said it because very often the great said it because very often the great power doesn't say the words directly.

power doesn't say the words directly. power doesn't say the words directly. They let somebody else say them for him. They let somebody else say them for him. They let somebody else say them for him. They have a spokesperson. But anyway, I They have a spokesperson. But anyway, I They have a spokesperson. But anyway, I I think it was his words and I think he I think it was his words and I think he I think it was his words and I think he said them on that day. That's what I said them on that day. That's what I said them on that day. That's what I think of this business of you do not think of this business of you do not think of this business of you do not know. You were not there. You know the know. You were not there. You know the know. You were not there. You know the stars were moving in the sky. The head stars were moving in the sky. The head stars were moving in the sky. The head was heaven was turning around. The earth was heaven was turning around. The earth was heaven was turning around. The earth was turning over. You do not know who was turning over. You do not know who was turning over. You do not know who loved whom. You do not know who your loved whom. You do not know who your loved whom. You do not know who your mother loved. You do not know what your mother loved. You do not know what your mother loved. You do not know what your mother did. And if I say he is my son, mother did. And if I say he is my son, mother did. And if I say he is my son, who are you to say he is not my son? who are you to say he is not my son? who are you to say he is not my son? by the way, pretty just really high integrity, really really high integrity, really respectable to do that to have that respectable to do that to have that respectable to do that to have that respect and honor his uh wife in this respect and honor his uh wife in this respect and honor his uh wife in this way. way. way. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> And his son in this way is really >> And his son in this way is really >> And his son in this way is really powerful. powerful. powerful. >> I believe that I don't know if she was >> I believe that I don't know if she was >> I believe that I don't know if she was alive at this point or not. We do not alive at this point or not. We do not alive at this point or not. We do not have the death recorded. Mongols are not have the death recorded. Mongols are not have the death recorded. Mongols are not good at recording death. They don't they good at recording death. They don't they good at recording death. They don't they usually just say somebody finished their usually just say somebody finished their usually just say somebody finished their age or they have some euphemism for it. age or they have some euphemism for it. age or they have some euphemism for it. But he made that impassion speech and But he made that impassion speech and But he made that impassion speech and Sagade had to submit. And he said, "Yes, Sagade had to submit. And he said, "Yes, Sagade had to submit. And he said, "Yes, you are our father and we accept what you are our father and we accept what you are our father and we accept what you say, but a deer shot with words you say, but a deer shot with words you say, but a deer shot with words cannot be loaded on a horse. A deer shot cannot be loaded on a horse. A deer shot cannot be loaded on a horse. A deer shot with words cannot be eaten."

with words cannot be eaten." with words cannot be eaten." So, So, So, Singer Han knew. Singer Han knew. Singer Han knew. So, he said to the boys, the boys, I So, he said to the boys, the boys, I So, he said to the boys, the boys, I mean, these are middle-aged men. They're mean, these are middle-aged men. They're mean, these are middle-aged men. They're not boys, but he said to the men, "What not boys, but he said to the men, "What not boys, but he said to the men, "What do you want to do? What do you want to do you want to do? What do you want to do you want to do? What do you want to do?" And he he said, "I don't favor do?" And he he said, "I don't favor do?" And he he said, "I don't favor Tagade Tagade Tagade because because because of his attitude and the situation." of his attitude and the situation." of his attitude and the situation." and Talo is still hotheaded and he he and Talo is still hotheaded and he he and Talo is still hotheaded and he he actually ended up being drunk and dying actually ended up being drunk and dying actually ended up being drunk and dying early. So, but the other guys they said, early. So, but the other guys they said, early. So, but the other guys they said, "Well, a good day." They chose him "Well, a good day." They chose him "Well, a good day." They chose him because he was the most uh the most because he was the most uh the most because he was the most uh the most generous and the bonvant and he was for generous and the bonvant and he was for generous and the bonvant and he was for every party and drinking every time and every party and drinking every time and every party and drinking every time and yeah, one time Shiki Hutuk, the great yeah, one time Shiki Hutuk, the great yeah, one time Shiki Hutuk, the great judge who wrote The Secret History, judge who wrote The Secret History, judge who wrote The Secret History, Shugi Hutuk was sleeping in a cart one Shugi Hutuk was sleeping in a cart one Shugi Hutuk was sleeping in a cart one time uh for whatever reason. I don't time uh for whatever reason. I don't time uh for whatever reason. I don't know what I think he also had passed out know what I think he also had passed out know what I think he also had passed out drunk perhaps but a goody came out drunk drunk perhaps but a goody came out drunk drunk perhaps but a goody came out drunk and grabbed him up and pulled him back and grabbed him up and pulled him back and grabbed him up and pulled him back into the party and a good was a party into the party and a good was a party into the party and a good was a party guy and uh so he was chosen as the next guy and uh so he was chosen as the next guy and uh so he was chosen as the next great han of the Mongol Empire but great han of the Mongol Empire but great han of the Mongol Empire but fortunately fortunately fortunately there was sort of a p plan B and that there was sort of a p plan B and that there was sort of a p plan B and that Chingas Khan had set up very powerful Chingas Khan had set up very powerful Chingas Khan had set up very powerful women his daughters but also he had women his daughters but also he had women his daughters but also he had chosen wives for each of his son very chosen wives for each of his son very chosen wives for each of his son very very capable wives and forg uh he had a very capable wives and forg uh he had a very capable wives and forg uh he had a wife who wasn't even his first wife. The wife who wasn't even his first wife. The wife who wasn't even his first wife. The first wife would usually be somebody first wife would usually be somebody first wife would usually be somebody closer by certain clan or something but

closer by certain clan or something but closer by certain clan or something but he had a very intelligent woman named he had a very intelligent woman named he had a very intelligent woman named Dorin and then uh she was more or less Dorin and then uh she was more or less Dorin and then uh she was more or less ruling in his last few years and then ruling in his last few years and then ruling in his last few years and then after he died she ruled empire uh in her after he died she ruled empire uh in her after he died she ruled empire uh in her own name. She was the ruler of the own name. She was the ruler of the own name. She was the ruler of the greatest empire in world ever ruled by a greatest empire in world ever ruled by a greatest empire in world ever ruled by a woman. woman. woman. >> It's incredible. The genius of Jen is to >> It's incredible. The genius of Jen is to >> It's incredible. The genius of Jen is to set it up that way. set it up that way. set it up that way. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> And to not, you know, there's probably u >> And to not, you know, there's probably u >> And to not, you know, there's probably u very widespread discrimination of women very widespread discrimination of women very widespread discrimination of women at that time and to have not care about at that time and to have not care about at that time and to have not care about any of that and just making the right any of that and just making the right any of that and just making the right decision. decision. decision. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> For like what it will keep the empire >> For like what it will keep the empire >> For like what it will keep the empire together. And Dorjin was actually there together. And Dorjin was actually there together. And Dorjin was actually there was peace. She stopped all campaigns. was peace. She stopped all campaigns. was peace. She stopped all campaigns. There was peace during her time. And the There was peace during her time. And the There was peace during her time. And the women like such as Dorin and others were women like such as Dorin and others were women like such as Dorin and others were extremely into economics and trade and extremely into economics and trade and extremely into economics and trade and running these they had these private running these they had these private running these they had these private corporations called Ortook. She was corporations called Ortook. She was corporations called Ortook. She was running her orto and everything. So she running her orto and everything. So she running her orto and everything. So she became much more interested in the became much more interested in the became much more interested in the economics of the trade and running the economics of the trade and running the economics of the trade and running the empire. And it was a time of peace and empire. And it was a time of peace and empire. And it was a time of peace and she recognized that peace was better for she recognized that peace was better for she recognized that peace was better for trade. It was better. And so it was a trade. It was better. And so it was a trade. It was better. And so it was a peaceful time. But like all of us, you peaceful time. But like all of us, you peaceful time. But like all of us, you know, we we have our weak points. And know, we we have our weak points. And know, we we have our weak points. And she favored a worthless son she favored a worthless son she favored a worthless son to become the successor. And to become the successor. And to become the successor. And none of the sons actually were great, none of the sons actually were great, none of the sons actually were great, but a good they had favored another. But but a good they had favored another. But but a good they had favored another. But anyway, she favored Gok her son. And uh

anyway, she favored Gok her son. And uh anyway, she favored Gok her son. And uh so she arranged to have him made the so she arranged to have him made the so she arranged to have him made the great emperor while she was still alive. great emperor while she was still alive. great emperor while she was still alive. And she had a her primary minister was And she had a her primary minister was And she had a her primary minister was also a woman named Fatima from the also a woman named Fatima from the also a woman named Fatima from the Middle East. And unfortunately they go Middle East. And unfortunately they go Middle East. And unfortunately they go organized a purge of her court. organized a purge of her court. organized a purge of her court. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> And killed off a lot of these people who >> And killed off a lot of these people who >> And killed off a lot of these people who had been supporting her and a lot of had been supporting her and a lot of had been supporting her and a lot of them were Muslims and he killed off a them were Muslims and he killed off a them were Muslims and he killed off a lot. And then he was going to march lot. And then he was going to march lot. And then he was going to march against the Golden Horde because they against the Golden Horde because they against the Golden Horde because they weren't supporting him. weren't supporting him. weren't supporting him. So he set off and he died. He was only So he set off and he died. He was only So he set off and he died. He was only in office for 18 months. in office for 18 months. in office for 18 months. and uh he was gone and then his wife and uh he was gone and then his wife and uh he was gone and then his wife took over. Okamish. took over. Okamish. took over. Okamish. Unfortunately, she was not capable as Unfortunately, she was not capable as Unfortunately, she was not capable as her mother-in-law at origin. Okameish her mother-in-law at origin. Okameish her mother-in-law at origin. Okameish was a bit greedy and uh she didn't start was a bit greedy and uh she didn't start was a bit greedy and uh she didn't start any new wars, but she just kind of any new wars, but she just kind of any new wars, but she just kind of messed up things and she didn't rule for messed up things and she didn't rule for messed up things and she didn't rule for too long. And this is why Kublakhan's too long. And this is why Kublakhan's too long. And this is why Kublakhan's mother, Sakani, mother, Sakani, mother, Sakani, was able to have a revolution. She was able to have a revolution. She was able to have a revolution. She united with the Golden Horde. She was on united with the Golden Horde. She was on united with the Golden Horde. She was on one end on China. She had northern one end on China. She had northern one end on China. She had northern China. The Golden Horde had Russia. The China. The Golden Horde had Russia. The China. The Golden Horde had Russia. The two of them united against the center two of them united against the center two of them united against the center and they overthrew and they overthrew and they overthrew Ogul Hamish and she put her son Monk Ogul Hamish and she put her son Monk Ogul Hamish and she put her son Monk Khan in who was succeeded by Hublhan.

Khan in who was succeeded by Hublhan. Khan in who was succeeded by Hublhan. >> And we should say probably that you know >> And we should say probably that you know >> And we should say probably that you know this whole succession by Kin probably this whole succession by Kin probably this whole succession by Kin probably goes against the initial spirit of of goes against the initial spirit of of goes against the initial spirit of of what Jangghaskhan stood for. what Jangghaskhan stood for. what Jangghaskhan stood for. >> Yes. Yes. In the end, he was a father >> Yes. Yes. In the end, he was a father >> Yes. Yes. In the end, he was a father and he favored his sons even knowing and he favored his sons even knowing and he favored his sons even knowing they were not so capable. And he had they were not so capable. And he had they were not so capable. And he had lost a grandson that he loved. But but he organized it though as what But but he organized it though as what we call today almost a corporation. All we call today almost a corporation. All we call today almost a corporation. All lands belong to everybody in the family. lands belong to everybody in the family. lands belong to everybody in the family. Everybody. So Kubla Khan, that's why he Everybody. So Kubla Khan, that's why he Everybody. So Kubla Khan, that's why he had had soldiers. There were Christian had had soldiers. There were Christian had had soldiers. There were Christian soldiers. uh Oetian soldiers and Kipchek soldiers. uh Oetian soldiers and Kipchek soldiers. uh Oetian soldiers and Kipchek soldiers. He had 10,000 of each come in soldiers. He had 10,000 of each come in soldiers. He had 10,000 of each come in and then they owned the Russians would and then they owned the Russians would and then they owned the Russians would own silk factories in China. The own silk factories in China. The own silk factories in China. The Ilcanate would own silk factories and Ilcanate would own silk factories and Ilcanate would own silk factories and jade mines in China. The people in uh jade mines in China. The people in uh jade mines in China. The people in uh China, the Mongols, they would own China, the Mongols, they would own China, the Mongols, they would own villages in Persia and in Iraq. So he villages in Persia and in Iraq. So he villages in Persia and in Iraq. So he organized it all his everything was organized it all his everything was organized it all his everything was owned by the entire clan. Mhm.

owned by the entire clan. Mhm. owned by the entire clan. Mhm. >> It didn't last too long. >> It didn't last too long. >> It didn't last too long. I like that because of the divisions I like that because of the divisions I like that because of the divisions that developed. So the great Han was that developed. So the great Han was that developed. So the great Han was primarily in charge of conquering and primarily in charge of conquering and primarily in charge of conquering and expanding the land. So they had more expanding the land. So they had more expanding the land. So they had more lands to own. That was going to be the lands to own. That was going to be the lands to own. That was going to be the job. job. job. And Kublakhan fulfilled it. Monkhan to And Kublakhan fulfilled it. Monkhan to And Kublakhan fulfilled it. Monkhan to some extent fulfilled it. Oh, good. They some extent fulfilled it. Oh, good. They some extent fulfilled it. Oh, good. They did. Greek did not. did. Greek did not. did. Greek did not. >> His family ruling the land, all the >> His family ruling the land, all the >> His family ruling the land, all the different territories. different territories. different territories. >> Yeah. And they weakened with every >> Yeah. And they weakened with every >> Yeah. And they weakened with every generation. generation. generation. >> Yeah, >> Yeah, >> Yeah, >> every generation. >> every generation. >> every generation. >> But that reminds me of a a very popular >> But that reminds me of a a very popular >> But that reminds me of a a very popular idea about idea about idea about Jangghaskhan um Jangghaskhan um Jangghaskhan um articulated in a 2003 paper titled the articulated in a 2003 paper titled the articulated in a 2003 paper titled the genetic legacy of the Mongols. So that genetic legacy of the Mongols. So that genetic legacy of the Mongols. So that paper has a finding that estimates that paper has a finding that estimates that paper has a finding that estimates that 0.5% 0.5% 0.5% of the world's male population is of the world's male population is of the world's male population is descendant direct descendants of Jenghis descendant direct descendants of Jenghis descendant direct descendants of Jenghis Khan. I've heard you kind of be a little Khan. I've heard you kind of be a little Khan. I've heard you kind of be a little bit skeptical of this paper, but I bit skeptical of this paper, but I bit skeptical of this paper, but I actually really like its findings. I actually really like its findings. I actually really like its findings. I talked to a good friend of mine, Manolas talked to a good friend of mine, Manolas talked to a good friend of mine, Manolas Kellis, who's a biologist, computational Kellis, who's a biologist, computational Kellis, who's a biologist, computational biologist and geneticist, and he he biologist and geneticist, and he he biologist and geneticist, and he he likes the paper as well. I I find it likes the paper as well. I I find it likes the paper as well. I I find it really convincing. Um, but I think your really convincing. Um, but I think your really convincing. Um, but I think your skepticism has to do not necessarily skepticism has to do not necessarily skepticism has to do not necessarily with the paper's contents, but more the with the paper's contents, but more the with the paper's contents, but more the implication that it speaks to like the implication that it speaks to like the implication that it speaks to like the thing that maybe the people who think of thing that maybe the people who think of thing that maybe the people who think of Jenghaskhan as a brutal barbarian

Jenghaskhan as a brutal barbarian Jenghaskhan as a brutal barbarian uh assume that the reason is.5% of the uh assume that the reason is.5% of the uh assume that the reason is.5% of the population is because of some population is because of some population is because of some institutionalized mass rape conducted by institutionalized mass rape conducted by institutionalized mass rape conducted by Jangaskhan. But to me, and we actually Jangaskhan. But to me, and we actually Jangaskhan. But to me, and we actually spoke about this You can't get those spoke about this You can't get those spoke about this You can't get those kinds of numbers with w with with with kinds of numbers with w with with with kinds of numbers with w with with with rape. Um, if you want for the empire rape. Um, if you want for the empire rape. Um, if you want for the empire uh to propagate the gene, if you if you uh to propagate the gene, if you if you uh to propagate the gene, if you if you were a person that want to propagate the were a person that want to propagate the were a person that want to propagate the genes, you would make sure that all the genes, you would make sure that all the genes, you would make sure that all the lands you conquer are stable, lands you conquer are stable, lands you conquer are stable, flourishing, and happy. And so actually flourishing, and happy. And so actually flourishing, and happy. And so actually what this is this is much better what this is this is much better what this is this is much better explained in the paper indicates this um explained in the paper indicates this um explained in the paper indicates this um is better explained by it was of high is better explained by it was of high is better explained by it was of high value like social status value to be value like social status value to be value like social status value to be associated with the lineage of Jangghis associated with the lineage of Jangghis associated with the lineage of Jangghis Khan. And so that means that for many Khan. And so that means that for many Khan. And so that means that for many generations people loved the great Khan generations people loved the great Khan generations people loved the great Khan the Jangghaskhan. And so in that sense the Jangghaskhan. And so in that sense the Jangghaskhan. And so in that sense given how vast the land was all the given how vast the land was all the given how vast the land was all the transformational effects it has on on transformational effects it has on on transformational effects it has on on trade on culture and so on uh it makes trade on culture and so on uh it makes trade on culture and so on uh it makes total sense and in fact the 0.5% just so total sense and in fact the 0.5% just so total sense and in fact the 0.5% just so people understand people understand people understand is just male descendants. the the way it is just male descendants. the the way it is just male descendants. the the way it works works works that means if this paper is at all that means if this paper is at all that means if this paper is at all correct in its estimate that the number correct in its estimate that the number correct in its estimate that the number of people descendant not direct male of people descendant not direct male of people descendant not direct male descendants but you know the way trees

descendants but you know the way trees descendants but you know the way trees work is like there's women on each step work is like there's women on each step work is like there's women on each step so there the the number of descendants so there the the number of descendants so there the the number of descendants could be much larger than that could be much larger than that could be much larger than that >> so I I think that's pretty interesting >> so I I think that's pretty interesting >> so I I think that's pretty interesting and I think there's singular figures and I think there's singular figures and I think there's singular figures like this in history but like this in history but like this in history but none like Jenis It's interesting. It's none like Jenis It's interesting. It's none like Jenis It's interesting. It's fun. Where did they get the DNA from fun. Where did they get the DNA from fun. Where did they get the DNA from Jingus Khan? Jingus Khan? Jingus Khan? >> Oh, yes. So, one of the criticism you >> Oh, yes. So, one of the criticism you >> Oh, yes. So, one of the criticism you have is like, well, have is like, well, have is like, well, >> they don't have one shred of scientific. >> they don't have one shred of scientific. >> they don't have one shred of scientific. They're supposed to be scientific. No, They're supposed to be scientific. No, They're supposed to be scientific. No, they found that the bunch of people are they found that the bunch of people are they found that the bunch of people are connected. connected. connected. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> And then they >> And then they >> And then they >> No, no, no, no. To one person. To one >> No, no, no, no. To one person. To one >> No, no, no, no. To one person. To one person. person. person. >> Yes. But they choose Chingis Khan, >> Yes. But they choose Chingis Khan, >> Yes. But they choose Chingis Khan, >> right? >> right? >> right? >> There's no evidence that it was from >> There's no evidence that it was from >> There's no evidence that it was from him. No evidence. him. No evidence. him. No evidence. >> It's from that time. It's one person. >> It's from that time. It's one person. >> It's from that time. It's one person. But from that time or 200 years before? But from that time or 200 years before? But from that time or 200 years before? >> It could be 200 years before. >> It could be 200 years before. >> It could be 200 years before. >> Yes. Yes. See, I mean actually I I would >> Yes. Yes. See, I mean actually I I would >> Yes. Yes. See, I mean actually I I would like for it to be true in a certain way. like for it to be true in a certain way. like for it to be true in a certain way. I would. And I do think there is a truth I would. And I do think there is a truth I would. And I do think there is a truth there. there. there. >> I think that by attaching it to the name >> I think that by attaching it to the name >> I think that by attaching it to the name of Jingus Khan, they've done a of Jingus Khan, they've done a of Jingus Khan, they've done a disservice to themselves, but it gets a disservice to themselves, but it gets a disservice to themselves, but it gets a lot of publicity, a lot more funding, lot of publicity, a lot more funding, lot of publicity, a lot more funding, and it's exciting and so on. But I think and it's exciting and so on. But I think and it's exciting and so on. But I think it's to that Mongol experience. But it's to that Mongol experience. But it's to that Mongol experience. But Chingis Han's descendants were almost Chingis Han's descendants were almost Chingis Han's descendants were almost everyone categorized and and recorded. I everyone categorized and and recorded. I everyone categorized and and recorded. I mean, he's the largest conqueror in the mean, he's the largest conqueror in the mean, he's the largest conqueror in the world. You do not have just children world. You do not have just children world. You do not have just children popping up all over the place. He had popping up all over the place. He had popping up all over the place. He had four wives all the time. He had children four wives all the time. He had children four wives all the time. He had children with two of them. Just not a lot of with two of them. Just not a lot of with two of them. Just not a lot of descendants. We know mostly who they are

descendants. We know mostly who they are descendants. We know mostly who they are for many generations. for many generations. for many generations. His brother Hasser had many more His brother Hasser had many more His brother Hasser had many more children than he did. Many more. And children than he did. Many more. And children than he did. Many more. And they caused a lot of problems later on they caused a lot of problems later on they caused a lot of problems later on for the empire too by by rivaling the for the empire too by by rivaling the for the empire too by by rivaling the power. So it could be that one of these power. So it could be that one of these power. So it could be that one of these other people boden chart could have been other people boden chart could have been other people boden chart could have been the origin of this. Uh it could have the origin of this. Uh it could have the origin of this. Uh it could have been back well before Chingghaskhan. I I been back well before Chingghaskhan. I I been back well before Chingghaskhan. I I just don't believe in and in Mongolia just don't believe in and in Mongolia just don't believe in and in Mongolia today today today we have nobody who claims to ching. we have nobody who claims to ching. we have nobody who claims to ching. >> Well claims is a different thing than >> Well claims is a different thing than >> Well claims is a different thing than biology. Right. So this this so the biology. Right. So this this so the biology. Right. So this this so the reason I say this is reason I say this is reason I say this is >> this methodology is pretty solid. >> this methodology is pretty solid. >> this methodology is pretty solid. >> Oh he's I believe that they found some >> Oh he's I believe that they found some >> Oh he's I believe that they found some connection of people. connection of people. connection of people. >> Yeah. But it's >> Yeah. But it's >> Yeah. But it's >> but they have no evidence that it's >> but they have no evidence that it's >> but they have no evidence that it's really connected to Chingis Khan. I really connected to Chingis Khan. I really connected to Chingis Khan. I think it may be tangentially connected think it may be tangentially connected think it may be tangentially connected to him. to him. to him. >> Yeah. But it's somebody from the >> Yeah. But it's somebody from the >> Yeah. But it's somebody from the Mongolia region. Mongolia region. Mongolia region. >> Yeah. I think that's quite possible. >> Yeah. I think that's quite possible. >> Yeah. I think that's quite possible. But we've already had the Hans come But we've already had the Hans come But we've already had the Hans come through. We've had all the Turks. Every through. We've had all the Turks. Every through. We've had all the Turks. Every one of the Turk nations is descended one of the Turk nations is descended one of the Turk nations is descended from Mongolia. They all came out of from Mongolia. They all came out of from Mongolia. They all came out of Mongolia.

Mongolia. Mongolia. >> You're I mean, you're right. You're >> You're I mean, you're right. You're >> You're I mean, you're right. You're right. right. right. >> On the other hand, I wish they could get >> On the other hand, I wish they could get >> On the other hand, I wish they could get some proof. I mean, I wish it could be some proof. I mean, I wish it could be some proof. I mean, I wish it could be true. true. true. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> I just can't believe it the way it is. >> I just can't believe it the way it is. >> I just can't believe it the way it is. We have no DNA. We have no DNA. We have no DNA. >> Nobody knows where he went. >> Nobody knows where he went. >> Nobody knows where he went. >> They don't. So, they don't know where >> They don't. So, they don't know where >> They don't. So, they don't know where he's buried. he's buried. he's buried. >> Okay. Jenghaskhan said, "Let my body go. >> Okay. Jenghaskhan said, "Let my body go. >> Okay. Jenghaskhan said, "Let my body go. let my nation live. And he chose to be let my nation live. And he chose to be let my nation live. And he chose to be buried in an unmarked grave. And the buried in an unmarked grave. And the buried in an unmarked grave. And the Mongols believe very strongly it should Mongols believe very strongly it should Mongols believe very strongly it should always be that way. Most of the cons who always be that way. Most of the cons who always be that way. Most of the cons who followed him were also buried in a followed him were also buried in a followed him were also buried in a similar way. The Chinese emperors, you similar way. The Chinese emperors, you similar way. The Chinese emperors, you know, were buried in very elaborate know, were buried in very elaborate know, were buried in very elaborate tombs, but not the Yuan dynasty. tombs, but not the Yuan dynasty. tombs, but not the Yuan dynasty. >> No. And so Kubla Khan was buried back >> No. And so Kubla Khan was buried back >> No. And so Kubla Khan was buried back with his grandfather in an anonymous with his grandfather in an anonymous with his grandfather in an anonymous grave. And um not everyone like Gig died grave. And um not everyone like Gig died grave. And um not everyone like Gig died when he was on campaign towards Russia. when he was on campaign towards Russia. when he was on campaign towards Russia. He was died out there. I mean he was He was died out there. I mean he was He was died out there. I mean he was buried out there. I think his uh I think buried out there. I think his uh I think buried out there. I think his uh I think his father Goodday was also buried out his father Goodday was also buried out his father Goodday was also buried out there. That was more their homeland. But there. That was more their homeland. But there. That was more their homeland. But uh many of them were buried with him.

uh many of them were buried with him. uh many of them were buried with him. And uh it's known and not it's known and not known at the same time. You know, it's known at the same time. You know, it's known at the same time. You know, it's uh officially you you should not know uh officially you you should not know uh officially you you should not know it. You cannot know it. Uh it should it. You cannot know it. Uh it should it. You cannot know it. Uh it should never be disturbed. He should never be never be disturbed. He should never be never be disturbed. He should never be disturbed. We're not going to have a disturbed. We're not going to have a disturbed. We're not going to have a tour group coming in. tour group coming in. tour group coming in. >> But you're saying like the people of >> But you're saying like the people of >> But you're saying like the people of Mongolia, they have a sense. Mongolia, they have a sense. Mongolia, they have a sense. >> They believe he's in a certain place. >> They believe he's in a certain place. >> They believe he's in a certain place. Yes. They believe they know where the Yes. They believe they know where the Yes. They believe they know where the place is, but they it's sacred. You can place is, but they it's sacred. You can place is, but they it's sacred. You can do nothing. Nothing. do nothing. Nothing. do nothing. Nothing. >> Just leave it as it is. That's >> Just leave it as it is. That's >> Just leave it as it is. That's no no no roads, no buildings, no killing no no no roads, no buildings, no killing no no no roads, no buildings, no killing of animals, no chopping of trees. of animals, no chopping of trees. of animals, no chopping of trees. Nothing can be done. It's a holy land Nothing can be done. It's a holy land Nothing can be done. It's a holy land dedicated to him and his family. dedicated to him and his family. dedicated to him and his family. >> It's pretty amazing. Unmarked grave. >> It's pretty amazing. Unmarked grave. >> It's pretty amazing. Unmarked grave. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> For the the greatest conqueror in the >> For the the greatest conqueror in the >> For the the greatest conqueror in the history of humanity. history of humanity. history of humanity. >> Uh for good and for bad, the most >> Uh for good and for bad, the most >> Uh for good and for bad, the most impactful one of the most impactful impactful one of the most impactful impactful one of the most impactful humans in history.

humans in history. humans in history. >> Yes. I believe in his thing about let my >> Yes. I believe in his thing about let my >> Yes. I believe in his thing about let my nation live, let my body be eliminated. nation live, let my body be eliminated. nation live, let my body be eliminated. And then and I say to people what they And then and I say to people what they And then and I say to people what they ask you what did he look like? And I say ask you what did he look like? And I say ask you what did he look like? And I say well the portrait was painted 50 years well the portrait was painted 50 years well the portrait was painted 50 years later by somebody who never saw him. later by somebody who never saw him. later by somebody who never saw him. >> And actually if you look at the portrait >> And actually if you look at the portrait >> And actually if you look at the portrait of Kubla Khan and Jenghask Khan they of Kubla Khan and Jenghask Khan they of Kubla Khan and Jenghask Khan they look alike except one's old and one's look alike except one's old and one's look alike except one's old and one's younger. And I think that's because younger. And I think that's because younger. And I think that's because Kubla was trying to establish he wanted Kubla was trying to establish he wanted Kubla was trying to establish he wanted to establish his legitimacy as a real to establish his legitimacy as a real to establish his legitimacy as a real Mongol that they looked alike but his Mongol that they looked alike but his Mongol that they looked alike but his grandfather said he didn't. And then grandfather said he didn't. And then grandfather said he didn't. And then Dehan and Dehan and Monkhan looked Dehan and Dehan and Monkhan looked Dehan and Dehan and Monkhan looked different. They looked different. So different. They looked different. So different. They looked different. So there was nothing. But I say if you want there was nothing. But I say if you want there was nothing. But I say if you want to see the face of Jingus Khan, walk in to see the face of Jingus Khan, walk in to see the face of Jingus Khan, walk in any gear in Mongolia. The first child any gear in Mongolia. The first child any gear in Mongolia. The first child you see that's the face of you see that's the face of you see that's the face of Chingghaskhan. It's his nation. He Chingghaskhan. It's his nation. He Chingghaskhan. It's his nation. He created that nation. That's his face. created that nation. That's his face. created that nation. That's his face. Does that make you sad that he Does that make you sad that he Does that make you sad that he that there's no, that there's no, that there's no, you know, from his time capturing of his you know, from his time capturing of his you know, from his time capturing of his image that he really image that he really image that he really made himself sort of disappear into the made himself sort of disappear into the made himself sort of disappear into the land? Does that make you sad?

land? Does that make you sad? land? Does that make you sad? >> No, not at all. No, because he's >> No, not at all. No, because he's >> No, not at all. No, because he's everywhere. you know, when you have everywhere. you know, when you have everywhere. you know, when you have these clans that are still operating in these clans that are still operating in these clans that are still operating in Afghanistan and the Russians are still Afghanistan and the Russians are still Afghanistan and the Russians are still using the Yam system, using the Yam system, using the Yam system, uh, there are many aspects of him that uh, there are many aspects of him that uh, there are many aspects of him that are out there in the world. And I think are out there in the world. And I think are out there in the world. And I think there I I find personally inspiration there I I find personally inspiration there I I find personally inspiration the same way that Thomas Jefferson did. the same way that Thomas Jefferson did. the same way that Thomas Jefferson did. >> He found so much inspiration in the life >> He found so much inspiration in the life >> He found so much inspiration in the life of Chingis Han and the books of of Chingis Han and the books of of Chingis Han and the books of Chingghis that you can still read. He Chingghis that you can still read. He Chingghis that you can still read. He gave cop he bought so many copies and gave cop he bought so many copies and gave cop he bought so many copies and gave like to the library of congress to gave like to the library of congress to gave like to the library of congress to the library of Virginia un the library of Virginia un the library of Virginia un to his granddaughter. to his granddaughter. to his granddaughter. You know these ideas live on and we You know these ideas live on and we You know these ideas live on and we still have not fulfilled them. We do not still have not fulfilled them. We do not still have not fulfilled them. We do not have religious freedom. We do not have have religious freedom. We do not have have religious freedom. We do not have the protections for women. We do not the protections for women. We do not the protections for women. We do not have the protections for envoys and have the protections for envoys and have the protections for envoys and ambassadors. Uh the ideas live on and ambassadors. Uh the ideas live on and ambassadors. Uh the ideas live on and the rulers do not live as the common the rulers do not live as the common the rulers do not live as the common people. to eat the same food, wear the people. to eat the same food, wear the people. to eat the same food, wear the same clothes, sleep in the same not a same clothes, sleep in the same not a same clothes, sleep in the same not a bed in that his case, but sleep in the bed in that his case, but sleep in the bed in that his case, but sleep in the same uh situation and simple home. No, same uh situation and simple home. No, same uh situation and simple home. No, >> I have tremendous respect for leaders >> I have tremendous respect for leaders >> I have tremendous respect for leaders that live that live that live just as the people who they lead.

just as the people who they lead. just as the people who they lead. >> Yes, >> Yes, >> Yes, >> it's yeah, mostly not done. Um but when >> it's yeah, mostly not done. Um but when >> it's yeah, mostly not done. Um but when it is I have just infinite respect for it is I have just infinite respect for it is I have just infinite respect for that and that is the way. Uh what that and that is the way. Uh what that and that is the way. Uh what lessons can you can we learn from lessons can you can we learn from lessons can you can we learn from Jenghask Khan that apply to the modern Jenghask Khan that apply to the modern Jenghask Khan that apply to the modern world? You've already said religious world? You've already said religious world? You've already said religious freedom some of these ideas. freedom some of these ideas. freedom some of these ideas. >> Well I think those his policy ideas I >> Well I think those his policy ideas I >> Well I think those his policy ideas I think are important. We can still learn think are important. We can still learn think are important. We can still learn from that about protection of diplomats from that about protection of diplomats from that about protection of diplomats uh not buying and selling women, not uh not buying and selling women, not uh not buying and selling women, not kidnapping women and uh having religious kidnapping women and uh having religious kidnapping women and uh having religious freedom of individuals. freedom of individuals. freedom of individuals. But also he had interesting things. He But also he had interesting things. He But also he had interesting things. He had tax-free status for all religions, had tax-free status for all religions, had tax-free status for all religions, all physicians and all teachers. They all physicians and all teachers. They all physicians and all teachers. They didn't pay taxes in his empire. Uh, as a didn't pay taxes in his empire. Uh, as a didn't pay taxes in his empire. Uh, as a former teacher, I I embrace that idea former teacher, I I embrace that idea former teacher, I I embrace that idea out of pure greed and self-interest. But out of pure greed and self-interest. But out of pure greed and self-interest. But it's it's not to me the idea of saving it's it's not to me the idea of saving it's it's not to me the idea of saving the money. It's the idea of focusing on the money. It's the idea of focusing on the money. It's the idea of focusing on that as something important for the that as something important for the that as something important for the society.

society. society. >> He didn't say tax-free for any other >> He didn't say tax-free for any other >> He didn't say tax-free for any other category of people as I recall, but just category of people as I recall, but just category of people as I recall, but just for those. And that's he's highlighting for those. And that's he's highlighting for those. And that's he's highlighting the health of the people, the education the health of the people, the education the health of the people, the education of the people and the spirit of the of the people and the spirit of the of the people and the spirit of the people, their spiritual that's very people, their spiritual that's very people, their spiritual that's very important. That's a a profound approach important. That's a a profound approach important. That's a a profound approach to life. And so these are policies. And to life. And so these are policies. And to life. And so these are policies. And I'm not advocating so much to policies, I'm not advocating so much to policies, I'm not advocating so much to policies, but I think some of the general but I think some of the general but I think some of the general principles of principles of principles of being willing to learn from our being willing to learn from our being willing to learn from our mistakes. Admit your mistake to mistakes. Admit your mistake to mistakes. Admit your mistake to yourself, yourself, yourself, correct it, and go on with your life. correct it, and go on with your life. correct it, and go on with your life. in all of us say it's important but we in all of us say it's important but we in all of us say it's important but we don't do it for the most part we don't don't do it for the most part we don't don't do it for the most part we don't learn from our failures as much as we learn from our failures as much as we learn from our failures as much as we think the other idea of promoting people think the other idea of promoting people think the other idea of promoting people on ability on ability on ability I think that's certainly an idea that is I think that's certainly an idea that is I think that's certainly an idea that is very valuable not in the simple way of very valuable not in the simple way of very valuable not in the simple way of meritocracy that we've done it with oh meritocracy that we've done it with oh meritocracy that we've done it with oh if you pass the exam with this score you if you pass the exam with this score you if you pass the exam with this score you get this or that but really evaluating get this or that but really evaluating get this or that but really evaluating people and their ability I think it's a people and their ability I think it's a people and their ability I think it's a very good thing not the only thing but I very good thing not the only thing but I very good thing not the only thing but I think it's very important and even think it's very important and even think it's very important and even though he failed in the end in his own though he failed in the end in his own though he failed in the end in his own life and he turned power over to his life and he turned power over to his life and he turned power over to his sons and his family it's a principle sons and his family it's a principle sons and his family it's a principle that he lived by most of his life and we that he lived by most of his life and we that he lived by most of his life and we can learn from that principle can learn from that principle can learn from that principle the other thing I think is just his the other thing I think is just his the other thing I think is just his global global global feel for the world his global feel for the world his global feel for the world his global understanding here was a man who had had understanding here was a man who had had understanding here was a man who had had no education any formal sense and he had

no education any formal sense and he had no education any formal sense and he had this sense that the world should be this sense that the world should be this sense that the world should be united. We should have things that unite united. We should have things that unite united. We should have things that unite all people. Everybody should have their all people. Everybody should have their all people. Everybody should have their own law, but there should be a higher own law, but there should be a higher own law, but there should be a higher law of heaven that governs people. You law of heaven that governs people. You law of heaven that governs people. You know, and this later was translated, know, and this later was translated, know, and this later was translated, everybody should have their own everybody should have their own everybody should have their own language, but they all write the same language, but they all write the same language, but they all write the same alphabet by Kublan. It didn't work. Or alphabet by Kublan. It didn't work. Or alphabet by Kublan. It didn't work. Or his idea, he tried to impose the use of his idea, he tried to impose the use of his idea, he tried to impose the use of paper currency in Iran, the Persian paper currency in Iran, the Persian paper currency in Iran, the Persian ilcarnate, uh, Chinese paper money. It ilcarnate, uh, Chinese paper money. It ilcarnate, uh, Chinese paper money. It didn't work. the people there weren't didn't work. the people there weren't didn't work. the people there weren't used to do. So there but all this used to do. So there but all this used to do. So there but all this international spirit of their empire. I international spirit of their empire. I international spirit of their empire. I think that we need today we talk about think that we need today we talk about think that we need today we talk about oh globalization we're all connected is oh globalization we're all connected is oh globalization we're all connected is just incredible and we're more just incredible and we're more just incredible and we're more provincial than ever. We are just so provincial than ever. We are just so provincial than ever. We are just so provincial and and sometimes we use all provincial and and sometimes we use all provincial and and sometimes we use all this technology to help preserve our this technology to help preserve our this technology to help preserve our provincialism and we can't think in provincialism and we can't think in provincialism and we can't think in global terms. We can't think about the global terms. We can't think about the global terms. We can't think about the world. It's just amazing to me world. It's just amazing to me world. It's just amazing to me how narrow-minded we are.

how narrow-minded we are. how narrow-minded we are. >> I also uh saw the Mongol pro proverb of >> I also uh saw the Mongol pro proverb of >> I also uh saw the Mongol pro proverb of if you're afraid don't do it. If you do if you're afraid don't do it. If you do if you're afraid don't do it. If you do it, don't be afraid. Yes. it, don't be afraid. Yes. it, don't be afraid. Yes. >> That you uh >> That you uh >> That you uh >> especially celebrate. I mean there is >> especially celebrate. I mean there is >> especially celebrate. I mean there is something to that. This uh in many ways something to that. This uh in many ways something to that. This uh in many ways Jenis Khan is a representation of a Jenis Khan is a representation of a Jenis Khan is a representation of a of a person like of a self-made man. of a person like of a self-made man. of a person like of a self-made man. That person from nothing. That person from nothing. That person from nothing. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Willed an entire empire into existence. >> Willed an entire empire into existence. >> Willed an entire empire into existence. >> Yes. And everything against him that you >> Yes. And everything against him that you >> Yes. And everything against him that you can think of. Your own family deserting can think of. Your own family deserting can think of. Your own family deserting you, your father you, your father you, your father dying at an early age, all these things dying at an early age, all these things dying at an early age, all these things like that. But as Jamoka said, he had a like that. But as Jamoka said, he had a like that. But as Jamoka said, he had a good mother and he had a good wife. And there were many crucial points at And there were many crucial points at which it was either his mother or his which it was either his mother or his which it was either his mother or his wife wife wife who made the deciding point. His wife who made the deciding point. His wife who made the deciding point. His wife Bura was the one who caused the first Bura was the one who caused the first Bura was the one who caused the first break with uh Jamoka to go away. Later break with uh Jamoka to go away. Later break with uh Jamoka to go away. Later on when the shamans had become too on when the shamans had become too on when the shamans had become too powerful and they had humiliated his powerful and they had humiliated his powerful and they had humiliated his younger brother, she was the one who younger brother, she was the one who younger brother, she was the one who said he had to clamp down on the shamans said he had to clamp down on the shamans said he had to clamp down on the shamans who were exercising too much power and who were exercising too much power and who were exercising too much power and uh she guided him a lot.

uh she guided him a lot. uh she guided him a lot. >> It cannot be understated how important >> It cannot be understated how important >> It cannot be understated how important and critical women are in the story of and critical women are in the story of and critical women are in the story of the Mongol Empire. the Mongol Empire. the Mongol Empire. >> It's fascinating. And sometimes >> It's fascinating. And sometimes >> It's fascinating. And sometimes we can say they're not behind the scenes we can say they're not behind the scenes we can say they're not behind the scenes because they're always out front. In the because they're always out front. In the because they're always out front. In the Mongol court, they always sat up front. Mongol court, they always sat up front. Mongol court, they always sat up front. They were always out front. And this They were always out front. And this They were always out front. And this this horrified the Chinese who are very this horrified the Chinese who are very this horrified the Chinese who are very good confusion. It horrified the good confusion. It horrified the good confusion. It horrified the Muslims. Muslims. Muslims. >> It horrified the Christians who they >> It horrified the Christians who they >> It horrified the Christians who they didn't know what to say. The women even didn't know what to say. The women even didn't know what to say. The women even drink in public. drink in public. drink in public. >> Okay. Yeah. They drink in public, >> Okay. Yeah. They drink in public, >> Okay. Yeah. They drink in public, >> you know. >> you know. >> you know. >> Uh they they do what? So sometimes it >> Uh they they do what? So sometimes it >> Uh they they do what? So sometimes it was like that. But other times with as was like that. But other times with as was like that. But other times with as with Dorjin she's actually the ruler or with Dorjin she's actually the ruler or with Dorjin she's actually the ruler or or the case of his daughters such as um or the case of his daughters such as um or the case of his daughters such as um Alak who ruled over a part of northern Alak who ruled over a part of northern Alak who ruled over a part of northern China called the Angut people and the China called the Angut people and the China called the Angut people and the other daughters who ruled over different other daughters who ruled over different other daughters who ruled over different they ruled in their own names and he's they ruled in their own names and he's they ruled in their own names and he's he's very ex this is something about the he's very ex this is something about the he's very ex this is something about the secret history that upset me. I get to secret history that upset me. I get to secret history that upset me. I get to chapter the all the sections are chapter the all the sections are chapter the all the sections are numbered. I get to chapter or number numbered. I get to chapter or number numbered. I get to chapter or number section 215 section 215 section 215 and there's only half a sentence left.

and there's only half a sentence left. and there's only half a sentence left. In 214 he's just awarded a girl he calls In 214 he's just awarded a girl he calls In 214 he's just awarded a girl he calls his daughter so she's probably a clan his daughter so she's probably a clan his daughter so she's probably a clan daughter but she lives with his mother daughter but she lives with his mother daughter but she lives with his mother at this point at this point at this point his youngest son to is only four years his youngest son to is only four years his youngest son to is only four years old. Atar comes and mother Erlun gives old. Atar comes and mother Erlun gives old. Atar comes and mother Erlun gives him food because you food everybody. He him food because you food everybody. He him food because you food everybody. He realized this is the mother of Chinghan realized this is the mother of Chinghan realized this is the mother of Chinghan and that's the child of Chinghan. He and that's the child of Chinghan. He and that's the child of Chinghan. He grabs him up and kidnaps him and runs grabs him up and kidnaps him and runs grabs him up and kidnaps him and runs out and he's holding the child in one out and he's holding the child in one out and he's holding the child in one hand and he's pulling out a knife with hand and he's pulling out a knife with hand and he's pulling out a knife with another hand. Alani raced out and she another hand. Alani raced out and she another hand. Alani raced out and she grabbed his arm and held it down. And grabbed his arm and held it down. And grabbed his arm and held it down. And two men uh Jeb and Jen, they were back two men uh Jeb and Jen, they were back two men uh Jeb and Jen, they were back behind the gear slaughtering an ax with behind the gear slaughtering an ax with behind the gear slaughtering an ax with an axe cuz that's you have to do it in an axe cuz that's you have to do it in an axe cuz that's you have to do it in the shade behind a gear. That's you the shade behind a gear. That's you the shade behind a gear. That's you don't do it in the light. And so they don't do it in the light. And so they don't do it in the light. And so they were back there doing that. So they were back there doing that. So they were back there doing that. So they raced out with ax and they killed the raced out with ax and they killed the raced out with ax and they killed the man. And so then Chigas Hanu is man. And so then Chigas Hanu is man. And so then Chigas Hanu is rewarding everybody for all their great rewarding everybody for all their great rewarding everybody for all their great deeds. And gentlemen and Jeb, they want deeds. And gentlemen and Jeb, they want deeds. And gentlemen and Jeb, they want to be rewarded for saving the life of to be rewarded for saving the life of to be rewarded for saving the life of Tal. Tal. Tal. He said, "No, you killed the Tatar.

He said, "No, you killed the Tatar. He said, "No, you killed the Tatar. Alani saved his life because she held a Alani saved his life because she held a Alani saved his life because she held a hand that had the the knife until you hand that had the the knife until you hand that had the the knife until you got there to kill him. She saved it and got there to kill him. She saved it and got there to kill him. She saved it and now we reward her." So he's finished now we reward her." So he's finished now we reward her." So he's finished that story in 214. We get to 215. He that story in 214. We get to 215. He that story in 214. We get to 215. He says, "Now let us reward our daughters." says, "Now let us reward our daughters." says, "Now let us reward our daughters." It's actually only a phrase of that's I It's actually only a phrase of that's I It's actually only a phrase of that's I said it's a complete sentence, but it's said it's a complete sentence, but it's said it's a complete sentence, but it's not quite complete. not quite complete. not quite complete. The rest is gone, The rest is gone, The rest is gone, cut out. cut out. cut out. It's missing. It's missing. It's missing. And I I was just so and I looked at all And I I was just so and I looked at all And I I was just so and I looked at all these different translations of how the these different translations of how the these different translations of how the different language and most often they different language and most often they different language and most often they translated as, "And now let us marry our translated as, "And now let us marry our translated as, "And now let us marry our daughters. daughters. daughters. Oh no. Oh no. He was very clear in his Oh no. Oh no. He was very clear in his Oh no. Oh no. He was very clear in his wedding speeches to his daughters. I wedding speeches to his daughters. I wedding speeches to his daughters. I give these people to you to rule. give these people to you to rule. give these people to you to rule. You have three husbands. You have three husbands. You have three husbands. You have your honor. You have your honor. You have your honor. You have your nation. And you have the You have your nation. And you have the You have your nation. And you have the man that I give to you. But the man I man that I give to you. But the man I man that I give to you. But the man I give to you goes in the army with me give to you goes in the army with me give to you goes in the army with me >> and brings his soldiers. You stay here >> and brings his soldiers. You stay here >> and brings his soldiers. You stay here and rule the people.

and rule the people. and rule the people. >> Brilliant. >> Brilliant. >> Brilliant. The Chinese when they arrived in the The Chinese when they arrived in the The Chinese when they arrived in the court of Altani, they didn't know what court of Altani, they didn't know what court of Altani, they didn't know what to think. There she is ruling this area to think. There she is ruling this area to think. There she is ruling this area of the Ongood people and they said, of the Ongood people and they said, of the Ongood people and they said, "Well, she can read and write and she's "Well, she can read and write and she's "Well, she can read and write and she's a supreme judge and she doesn't allow a supreme judge and she doesn't allow a supreme judge and she doesn't allow any death sentence without her any death sentence without her any death sentence without her permission." And uh permission." And uh permission." And uh but they didn't say which languages she but they didn't say which languages she but they didn't say which languages she could read and write. That has really could read and write. That has really could read and write. That has really puzzled me a lot. So you're saying the puzzled me a lot. So you're saying the puzzled me a lot. So you're saying the secret history as we have gotten access secret history as we have gotten access secret history as we have gotten access to has been to has been to has been edited to to remove the significance of edited to to remove the significance of edited to to remove the significance of women even though they're still there women even though they're still there women even though they're still there >> in that case I mean other cases with his >> in that case I mean other cases with his >> in that case I mean other cases with his mother they did not and all but I think mother they did not and all but I think mother they did not and all but I think in that case because what happened is in that case because what happened is in that case because what happened is most of these women had few offsprings most of these women had few offsprings most of these women had few offsprings because their husband was gone to war because their husband was gone to war because their husband was gone to war and Alani of course she married several and Alani of course she married several and Alani of course she married several times sometimes times sometimes times sometimes the sons of the last one, you know, but the sons of the last one, you know, but the sons of the last one, you know, but they were going off to war and they they were going off to war and they they were going off to war and they weren't reproducing very only one, weren't reproducing very only one, weren't reproducing very only one, Tetika, who was ruling in Siberia, Tetika, who was ruling in Siberia, Tetika, who was ruling in Siberia, uh she was the one who had a whole bunch uh she was the one who had a whole bunch uh she was the one who had a whole bunch of daughters, they wouldn't be going off of daughters, they wouldn't be going off of daughters, they wouldn't be going off to war. And so they actually spread out to war. And so they actually spread out to war. And so they actually spread out through the empire and did a lot of had through the empire and did a lot of had through the empire and did a lot of had a lot of power later. What happened was a lot of power later. What happened was a lot of power later. What happened was the area for for Alaka the area for for Alaka the area for for Alaka for example was then taken over by for example was then taken over by for example was then taken over by Kublakhan Kublakhan Kublakhan and then the areas all the Turkey areas and then the areas all the Turkey areas and then the areas all the Turkey areas one by one were taken over by one by one were taken over by one by one were taken over by their nephews as they died out not in their nephews as they died out not in their nephews as they died out not in their own lifetime they didn't kill the

their own lifetime they didn't kill the their own lifetime they didn't kill the women off but as they they died out the women off but as they they died out the women off but as they they died out the men uh took it over and so then they men uh took it over and so then they men uh took it over and so then they just wanted to kind of erase it it's just wanted to kind of erase it it's just wanted to kind of erase it it's like no northern China even though it's like no northern China even though it's like no northern China even though it's ruled by Sakani ruled by Sakani ruled by Sakani uh it always was Mongol. She was ruling uh it always was Mongol. She was ruling uh it always was Mongol. She was ruling because her husband was Mongol and her because her husband was Mongol and her because her husband was Mongol and her sons were Mongol. Therefore, they had sons were Mongol. Therefore, they had sons were Mongol. Therefore, they had the right to rule it. So they cut out the right to rule it. So they cut out the right to rule it. So they cut out the women for those reasons. I think the women for those reasons. I think the women for those reasons. I think anytime it threatened the power of a anytime it threatened the power of a anytime it threatened the power of a particular man. Then there were other particular man. Then there were other particular man. Then there were other little things that are added in there. little things that are added in there. little things that are added in there. Sometimes you can find a phrase and you Sometimes you can find a phrase and you Sometimes you can find a phrase and you say say say >> this phrase was not in the original. >> this phrase was not in the original. >> this phrase was not in the original. >> Yeah. In studying human history, what >> Yeah. In studying human history, what >> Yeah. In studying human history, what have you learned about human nature and have you learned about human nature and have you learned about human nature and just the trajectory of humanity just the trajectory of humanity just the trajectory of humanity throughout the past several millennia? throughout the past several millennia? throughout the past several millennia? >> I tend to have a certain love for >> I tend to have a certain love for >> I tend to have a certain love for individuals and persons, but not a love individuals and persons, but not a love individuals and persons, but not a love for people in general and especially not for people in general and especially not for people in general and especially not for institutions. I have I tend to have for institutions. I have I tend to have for institutions. I have I tend to have a great sus suspicion about almost a great sus suspicion about almost a great sus suspicion about almost everything and mistrust in institutions everything and mistrust in institutions everything and mistrust in institutions over and over and I think that's my own over and over and I think that's my own over and over and I think that's my own prejudice and then I find reasons to prejudice and then I find reasons to prejudice and then I find reasons to support that and Chinghan was very good support that and Chinghan was very good support that and Chinghan was very good at destroying a lot of uh institutions at destroying a lot of uh institutions at destroying a lot of uh institutions or bringing them to heal within his or bringing them to heal within his or bringing them to heal within his empire. So then I like that and I stress empire. So then I like that and I stress empire. So then I like that and I stress that and I I see those things.

that and I I see those things. that and I I see those things. I think that's one thing. But other I think that's one thing. But other I think that's one thing. But other things that I learned from the Mongol things that I learned from the Mongol things that I learned from the Mongol people in general, not just about their people in general, not just about their people in general, not just about their history and all, but how it's possible history and all, but how it's possible history and all, but how it's possible to live for thousands of years in a to live for thousands of years in a to live for thousands of years in a place that for many people is not the place that for many people is not the place that for many people is not the most beautiful in the world. It's most beautiful in the world. It's most beautiful in the world. It's austere. You have a band of mountains austere. You have a band of mountains austere. You have a band of mountains and with some trees and then big band of and with some trees and then big band of and with some trees and then big band of step and then a big band of sand, gravel step and then a big band of sand, gravel step and then a big band of sand, gravel desert, the goi and for many people it desert, the goi and for many people it desert, the goi and for many people it wouldn't it's not appealing. It's just wouldn't it's not appealing. It's just wouldn't it's not appealing. It's just open. There's too much space. It's like open. There's too much space. It's like open. There's too much space. It's like we need to build something over here. we need to build something over here. we need to build something over here. Boy, you could have a condo right there. Boy, you could have a condo right there. Boy, you could have a condo right there. We could have a building and we could We could have a building and we could We could have a building and we could sell them off and but I, you know, they sell them off and but I, you know, they sell them off and but I, you know, they haven't given in to that. haven't given in to that. haven't given in to that. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> They really value their country. They >> They really value their country. They >> They really value their country. They protect their country. Even now only 1% protect their country. Even now only 1% protect their country. Even now only 1% is privately owned. They keep it down. is privately owned. They keep it down. is privately owned. They keep it down. And in the Mongolian records, farm and And in the Mongolian records, farm and And in the Mongolian records, farm and city count as one category. It's just city count as one category. It's just city count as one category. It's just because it's settled people. It doesn't because it's settled people. It doesn't because it's settled people. It doesn't matter. You settle on a farm, you settle matter. You settle on a farm, you settle matter. You settle on a farm, you settle in a city, settle people, one category.

in a city, settle people, one category. in a city, settle people, one category. And And And they lived there in this land they lived there in this land they lived there in this land that Chingis Han would return to in that Chingis Han would return to in that Chingis Han would return to in love. love. love. If he returned to the capital city, he If he returned to the capital city, he If he returned to the capital city, he would not know where he was. He would would not know where he was. He would would not know where he was. He would have no idea. And all the people would have no idea. And all the people would have no idea. And all the people would say, "Oh, be Mongol. I'm Mongolia. Yeah, say, "Oh, be Mongol. I'm Mongolia. Yeah, say, "Oh, be Mongol. I'm Mongolia. Yeah, I'm Mongol. I have the hat. I have the I'm Mongol. I have the hat. I have the I'm Mongol. I have the hat. I have the bell buckle. I have the all the tail bell buckle. I have the all the tail bell buckle. I have the all the tail that's all embroidered, you know. Yeah, that's all embroidered, you know. Yeah, that's all embroidered, you know. Yeah, I'm Mongol." and uh J say where's your I'm Mongol." and uh J say where's your I'm Mongol." and uh J say where's your horse? Oh, I keep it in the countryside, horse? Oh, I keep it in the countryside, horse? Oh, I keep it in the countryside, you know. But you know. But you know. But he wouldn't recognize the city, but it's he wouldn't recognize the city, but it's he wouldn't recognize the city, but it's still his country, his people. They still his country, his people. They still his country, his people. They worship him in a literal sense, not the worship him in a literal sense, not the worship him in a literal sense, not the way we would worship God asking for way we would worship God asking for way we would worship God asking for favors, but in the sense of worshiping favors, but in the sense of worshiping favors, but in the sense of worshiping him with praise. They have so many songs him with praise. They have so many songs him with praise. They have so many songs to praise him. And about half of the hip to praise him. And about half of the hip to praise him. And about half of the hip hop in the country is in praise of Jenis hop in the country is in praise of Jenis hop in the country is in praise of Jenis Khan. You know, it's something we can't Khan. You know, it's something we can't Khan. You know, it's something we can't understand because when we pray, we're understand because when we pray, we're understand because when we pray, we're usually saying, you know, oh, thank you, usually saying, you know, oh, thank you, usually saying, you know, oh, thank you, God, for this and that and the other and God, for this and that and the other and God, for this and that and the other and you're so wonderful and I love you so you're so wonderful and I love you so you're so wonderful and I love you so would you please give me and would you would you please give me and would you would you please give me and would you please do this and would you please stop please do this and would you please stop please do this and would you please stop this pain in my knee? We're asking for this pain in my knee? We're asking for this pain in my knee? We're asking for things all over the place. But thing is, things all over the place. But thing is, things all over the place. But thing is, Han, no. No, no one ever asks for Han, no. No, no one ever asks for Han, no. No, no one ever asks for anything. They just honor him. They just anything. They just honor him. They just anything. They just honor him. They just praise him and honor him.

praise him and honor him. praise him and honor him. If I wanted to visit Mongolia, what what If I wanted to visit Mongolia, what what If I wanted to visit Mongolia, what what would you recommend? What's what's the would you recommend? What's what's the would you recommend? What's what's the right way? right way? right way? >> Well, start with my home. Let's start >> Well, start with my home. Let's start >> Well, start with my home. Let's start there. You come over there. there. You come over there. there. You come over there. It's a nice valley. I'm in a I have a It's a nice valley. I'm in a I have a It's a nice valley. I'm in a I have a nice valley there. And uh it nice valley there. And uh it nice valley there. And uh it I think almost any direction you go I think almost any direction you go I think almost any direction you go outside of the city is going to be outside of the city is going to be outside of the city is going to be interesting. interesting. interesting. >> Uh it kind of depends a little bit on on >> Uh it kind of depends a little bit on on >> Uh it kind of depends a little bit on on your purpose. Most people go south to your purpose. Most people go south to your purpose. Most people go south to the Gobi and they do a loop to the Gobi the Gobi and they do a loop to the Gobi the Gobi and they do a loop to the Gobi and around to Karakorum Hakor in the old and around to Karakorum Hakor in the old and around to Karakorum Hakor in the old capital from Aguhan, but it was capital from Aguhan, but it was capital from Aguhan, but it was abandoned by Kublakhan. And then they abandoned by Kublakhan. And then they abandoned by Kublakhan. And then they circle back to the city and they may circle back to the city and they may circle back to the city and they may stop off to see the what we call stop off to see the what we call stop off to see the what we call Presolski, the the wild horse, but they Presolski, the the wild horse, but they Presolski, the the wild horse, but they talk Kaki talk Kaki talk Kaki to see the Taki or they may go up uh to to see the Taki or they may go up uh to to see the Taki or they may go up uh to Huffskull Lake, a big beautiful lake, Huffskull Lake, a big beautiful lake, Huffskull Lake, a big beautiful lake, somewhat like Ball, but much smaller. So somewhat like Ball, but much smaller. So somewhat like Ball, but much smaller. So that's a beautiful trip. If you want to that's a beautiful trip. If you want to that's a beautiful trip. If you want to see the more Turk area where they hunt see the more Turk area where they hunt see the more Turk area where they hunt with eagles, the far west is where the with eagles, the far west is where the with eagles, the far west is where the Kazak people live. And the mountains are Kazak people live. And the mountains are Kazak people live. And the mountains are absolutely incredibly beautiful. Most absolutely incredibly beautiful. Most absolutely incredibly beautiful. Most mountains in Mongolia are are gentle.

mountains in Mongolia are are gentle. mountains in Mongolia are are gentle. Beautiful but gentle. The farther west Beautiful but gentle. The farther west Beautiful but gentle. The farther west you go, the more dramatic they become. you go, the more dramatic they become. you go, the more dramatic they become. The more pointed and peaked and snow The more pointed and peaked and snow The more pointed and peaked and snow covered. Then if you go to the eastern covered. Then if you go to the eastern covered. Then if you go to the eastern Mongolia, it's tend to be very flat. Mongolia, it's tend to be very flat. Mongolia, it's tend to be very flat. There are massive massive flocks of There are massive massive flocks of There are massive massive flocks of cranes that come in every year. Millions cranes that come in every year. Millions cranes that come in every year. Millions and millions of cranes. There are also and millions of cranes. There are also and millions of cranes. There are also tundra swans that come in and the golden tundra swans that come in and the golden tundra swans that come in and the golden ducks and all kinds of beautiful birds ducks and all kinds of beautiful birds ducks and all kinds of beautiful birds out there. And so each area has out there. And so each area has out there. And so each area has something special. If you want something special. If you want something special. If you want particularly the history of Chinghan, particularly the history of Chinghan, particularly the history of Chinghan, uh the Mongolians love him. They worship uh the Mongolians love him. They worship uh the Mongolians love him. They worship him, but they don't do too much to him, but they don't do too much to him, but they don't do too much to capitalize on his home area. the Hinti. capitalize on his home area. the Hinti. capitalize on his home area. the Hinti. You can go to the Hinti. There areas you You can go to the Hinti. There areas you You can go to the Hinti. There areas you cannot go to. Large large areas. It's cannot go to. Large large areas. It's cannot go to. Large large areas. It's forbidden. But you can go. But they forbidden. But you can go. But they forbidden. But you can go. But they don't capitalize like this is the place. don't capitalize like this is the place. don't capitalize like this is the place. No, they they go there themselves out of No, they they go there themselves out of No, they they go there themselves out of respect. respect. respect. But the only But the only But the only one place they built this statue of him one place they built this statue of him one place they built this statue of him which is the largest equestrian statue which is the largest equestrian statue which is the largest equestrian statue in the world. But it's the place where in the world. But it's the place where in the world. But it's the place where they say he found his whip they say he found his whip they say he found his whip which is when he was coming back from which is when he was coming back from which is when he was coming back from being at the camp of asking Oralhan being at the camp of asking Oralhan being at the camp of asking Oralhan or or Togalhan or or Bangghan to support or or Togalhan or or Bangghan to support or or Togalhan or or Bangghan to support him. and he's coming back to his family him. and he's coming back to his family him. and he's coming back to his family and on the way he supposedly found a and on the way he supposedly found a and on the way he supposedly found a whip there which it's just a small stick whip there which it's just a small stick whip there which it's just a small stick with a couple of strands of rawhide at

with a couple of strands of rawhide at with a couple of strands of rawhide at the end of it that's used but for the the end of it that's used but for the the end of it that's used but for the Mongolians it's a symbolic thing because Mongolians it's a symbolic thing because Mongolians it's a symbolic thing because obviously it's used for a horse but for obviously it's used for a horse but for obviously it's used for a horse but for the Mongols your destiny your your self the Mongols your destiny your your self the Mongols your destiny your your self your real is your heor your real is your heor your real is your heor that lives inside of you windor that that lives inside of you windor that that lives inside of you windor that guides you and gives you opportunities, guides you and gives you opportunities, guides you and gives you opportunities, but it's up to you but it's up to you but it's up to you to ride that wind horse. It's up to you to ride that wind horse. It's up to you to ride that wind horse. It's up to you to use the windhorse, not to just go to use the windhorse, not to just go to use the windhorse, not to just go wild with the windhorse. And so I think wild with the windhorse. And so I think wild with the windhorse. And so I think it's at that crucial moment, he's on his it's at that crucial moment, he's on his it's at that crucial moment, he's on his way back home and to go with Jamoka and way back home and to go with Jamoka and way back home and to go with Jamoka and the other soldiers to the market to the other soldiers to the market to the other soldiers to the market to rescue Burst. And so symbolically, he rescue Burst. And so symbolically, he rescue Burst. And so symbolically, he found a whip there. But I think it it found a whip there. But I think it it found a whip there. But I think it it means that he found the way to control means that he found the way to control means that he found the way to control his destiny, his fate. That's very his destiny, his fate. That's very his destiny, his fate. That's very important. Very important. important. Very important. important. Very important. >> And that he did. That was the beginning >> And that he did. That was the beginning >> And that he did. That was the beginning of everything.

of everything. of everything. >> Yes. And it's symbolized in that statue. >> Yes. And it's symbolized in that statue. >> Yes. And it's symbolized in that statue. Some people think that he's holding this Some people think that he's holding this Some people think that he's holding this stick that it's a baton or something stick that it's a baton or something stick that it's a baton or something like that, but no, it's that what they like that, but no, it's that what they like that, but no, it's that what they call the whip or tush. call the whip or tush. call the whip or tush. >> We've talked a lot about the past. If we >> We've talked a lot about the past. If we >> We've talked a lot about the past. If we look out into the future, what gives you look out into the future, what gives you look out into the future, what gives you hope hope hope for human civilization, for us humans? for human civilization, for us humans? for human civilization, for us humans? >> Well, almost every day I'm totally >> Well, almost every day I'm totally >> Well, almost every day I'm totally dissatisfied with everything on Earth, dissatisfied with everything on Earth, dissatisfied with everything on Earth, you know? It's just that kind of old man you know? It's just that kind of old man you know? It's just that kind of old man blah blah blah blah blah blah. What are blah blah blah blah blah blah. What are blah blah blah blah blah blah. What are they talking about? My grandchildren are they talking about? My grandchildren are they talking about? My grandchildren are talking to me. I don't understand a word talking to me. I don't understand a word talking to me. I don't understand a word they say. What are they what and who are they say. What are they what and who are they say. What are they what and who are they talking about? I never heard of they talking about? I never heard of they talking about? I never heard of this. You know, it's kind of like that. this. You know, it's kind of like that. this. You know, it's kind of like that. and who's running for office. Oh my god. and who's running for office. Oh my god. and who's running for office. Oh my god. Oh my god. You know, it's everything Oh my god. You know, it's everything Oh my god. You know, it's everything like that. But then almost every day I like that. But then almost every day I like that. But then almost every day I meet somebody meet somebody meet somebody just one person, you know, who gives you just one person, you know, who gives you just one person, you know, who gives you some kind of hope. You just see somebody some kind of hope. You just see somebody some kind of hope. You just see somebody doing something nice and or or they do doing something nice and or or they do doing something nice and or or they do something nice for you. And I do find in something nice for you. And I do find in something nice for you. And I do find in Asia that happens a lot.

Asia that happens a lot. Asia that happens a lot. >> You know that people just do nice things >> You know that people just do nice things >> You know that people just do nice things for old people every day. And for old people every day. And for old people every day. And so then my dissatisfaction with all the so then my dissatisfaction with all the so then my dissatisfaction with all the big things in the world and the the way big things in the world and the the way big things in the world and the the way my grandchildren talk and the way young my grandchildren talk and the way young my grandchildren talk and the way young people are. And then I see something people are. And then I see something people are. And then I see something like that. And often it's something with like that. And often it's something with like that. And often it's something with the young people, something that the the young people, something that the the young people, something that the young people do. And uh in Asia, young people do. And uh in Asia, young people do. And uh in Asia, they're always bringing me things. They they're always bringing me things. They they're always bringing me things. They bring me dried curds. They bring me bring me dried curds. They bring me bring me dried curds. They bring me strawberries that they picked in the strawberries that they picked in the strawberries that they picked in the forest in the summer or or or they bring forest in the summer or or or they bring forest in the summer or or or they bring the uh pine nuts that they found or they the uh pine nuts that they found or they the uh pine nuts that they found or they bring me the the milk in various forms bring me the the milk in various forms bring me the the milk in various forms or yogurt. Oh yeah. Everybody thinks you or yogurt. Oh yeah. Everybody thinks you or yogurt. Oh yeah. Everybody thinks you got to eat the yogurt. This is from my got to eat the yogurt. This is from my got to eat the yogurt. This is from my grandmother and all the other yogurt in grandmother and all the other yogurt in grandmother and all the other yogurt in the world is not good. But my the world is not good. But my the world is not good. But my grandmother, she knows how to make the grandmother, she knows how to make the grandmother, she knows how to make the best yogurt ever, best yogurt ever, best yogurt ever, >> you know. And so over and over and over, >> you know. And so over and over and over, >> you know. And so over and over and over, I find despite my all intentions to be I find despite my all intentions to be I find despite my all intentions to be in a bad mood, you know, somebody spoils in a bad mood, you know, somebody spoils in a bad mood, you know, somebody spoils it with these little nice acts that are it with these little nice acts that are it with these little nice acts that are really very touching. Very touching.

really very touching. Very touching. really very touching. Very touching. >> Yeah. And it reminds you that there's >> Yeah. And it reminds you that there's >> Yeah. And it reminds you that there's that little flame of goodness that burns that little flame of goodness that burns that little flame of goodness that burns in everybody. I I believe that that in everybody. I I believe that that in everybody. I I believe that that >> on the whole will >> on the whole will >> on the whole will keep humanity flourishing and keep keep keep humanity flourishing and keep keep keep humanity flourishing and keep keep you know evolving and changing towards you know evolving and changing towards you know evolving and changing towards something better with every generation. something better with every generation. something better with every generation. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Yes. You know I've the people in Mongolia You know I've the people in Mongolia You know I've the people in Mongolia take such good care of me all the time. take such good care of me all the time. take such good care of me all the time. All the time. And I think my wife had All the time. And I think my wife had All the time. And I think my wife had MS. I've talked about this before MS. I've talked about this before MS. I've talked about this before sometimes. She had MS and slowly sometimes. She had MS and slowly sometimes. She had MS and slowly declined for many years becoming declined for many years becoming declined for many years becoming paralyzed, not able to speak, not able paralyzed, not able to speak, not able paralyzed, not able to speak, not able to control her movements or anything. to control her movements or anything. to control her movements or anything. And we lived half the year still in And we lived half the year still in And we lived half the year still in Mongolia. Part of it was because the Mongolia. Part of it was because the Mongolia. Part of it was because the climate, the altitude were better for climate, the altitude were better for climate, the altitude were better for her situation. Uh it was very helpful her situation. Uh it was very helpful her situation. Uh it was very helpful for her, but also the people. There was for her, but also the people. There was for her, but also the people. There was a poor country. The sidewalks are a poor country. The sidewalks are a poor country. The sidewalks are broken. Everything's not working. But I broken. Everything's not working. But I broken. Everything's not working. But I would go out with her in a wheelchair would go out with her in a wheelchair would go out with her in a wheelchair alone. And I knew that every bump alone. And I knew that every bump alone. And I knew that every bump some arm would pick her up. I mean, pick some arm would pick her up. I mean, pick some arm would pick her up. I mean, pick up the wheelchair and lift her over that up the wheelchair and lift her over that up the wheelchair and lift her over that and not make me do it. We could go to and not make me do it. We could go to and not make me do it. We could go to the opera and you had to go up this the opera and you had to go up this the opera and you had to go up this magnificent set of Soviet stairs to get magnificent set of Soviet stairs to get magnificent set of Soviet stairs to get to the opera. You know, we would go and to the opera. You know, we would go and to the opera. You know, we would go and I had no worries. I knew two guys would I had no worries. I knew two guys would I had no worries. I knew two guys would come from one side, two guys from the come from one side, two guys from the come from one side, two guys from the other side. They would carry and they do other side. They would carry and they do other side. They would carry and they do not say, "Excuse me, may I help you?"

not say, "Excuse me, may I help you?" not say, "Excuse me, may I help you?" They do not wait for you to say thank They do not wait for you to say thank They do not wait for you to say thank you. Nothing. They just do it and they you. Nothing. They just do it and they you. Nothing. They just do it and they walk away. They have such respect. walk away. They have such respect. walk away. They have such respect. Singers would come there all the time to Singers would come there all the time to Singers would come there all the time to sing to warm up the house for my wife sing to warm up the house for my wife sing to warm up the house for my wife and they even dancers would come and they even dancers would come and they even dancers would come sometimes to dance or play the horsehead sometimes to dance or play the horsehead sometimes to dance or play the horsehead fiddle mur to to play that to warm up fiddle mur to to play that to warm up fiddle mur to to play that to warm up the house for her to see how they the house for her to see how they the house for her to see how they treated a totally disabled person, you treated a totally disabled person, you treated a totally disabled person, you know. And if I was feeding my wife and know. And if I was feeding my wife and know. And if I was feeding my wife and somebody anyone anybody saw it, they somebody anyone anybody saw it, they somebody anyone anybody saw it, they would come and immediately take over and would come and immediately take over and would come and immediately take over and start feeding her in their place. start feeding her in their place. start feeding her in their place. Children would come up to her. In Children would come up to her. In Children would come up to her. In America, they're often afraid that she's America, they're often afraid that she's America, they're often afraid that she's somebody in a wheelchair. You know, they somebody in a wheelchair. You know, they somebody in a wheelchair. You know, they just kind of look, they don't know what just kind of look, they don't know what just kind of look, they don't know what to do. But over there, the children to do. But over there, the children to do. But over there, the children would always come to her. Always. They would always come to her. Always. They would always come to her. Always. They were very it you just learn something were very it you just learn something were very it you just learn something about the people. And living there in a about the people. And living there in a about the people. And living there in a country where you out in the country where you out in the country where you out in the countryside, you come to a gear, you countryside, you come to a gear, you countryside, you come to a gear, you never ask for permission to go in. You never ask for permission to go in. You never ask for permission to go in. You certainly don't knock on the door frame.

certainly don't knock on the door frame. certainly don't knock on the door frame. That's no that's hugely offensive. And That's no that's hugely offensive. And That's no that's hugely offensive. And you ask, it's like insulting the people you ask, it's like insulting the people you ask, it's like insulting the people like, "What? You're not good, hospitable like, "What? You're not good, hospitable like, "What? You're not good, hospitable people. I have to ask you for people. I have to ask you for people. I have to ask you for something." No, you walk in and you sit something." No, you walk in and you sit something." No, you walk in and you sit down and they fix food for you. down and they fix food for you. down and they fix food for you. It's an incredible thing. And these are It's an incredible thing. And these are It's an incredible thing. And these are the things that give me hope. It's no the things that give me hope. It's no the things that give me hope. It's no institution in the world. No, not the institution in the world. No, not the institution in the world. No, not the big things and not the pop culture and big things and not the pop culture and big things and not the pop culture and not all the platitudes. Oh my God, save not all the platitudes. Oh my God, save not all the platitudes. Oh my God, save us from the platitudes of modern life, us from the platitudes of modern life, us from the platitudes of modern life, you know. you know. you know. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> It's true. >> It's true. >> It's true. >> It's the family that will fix tea for >> It's the family that will fix tea for >> It's the family that will fix tea for you at 2 in the morning because there you at 2 in the morning because there you at 2 in the morning because there was a flash flood and you got stuck and was a flash flood and you got stuck and was a flash flood and you got stuck and now you're cold and wet and they build a now you're cold and wet and they build a now you're cold and wet and they build a fire and take care of you. or you just fire and take care of you. or you just fire and take care of you. or you just show up and you make camp somewhere if show up and you make camp somewhere if show up and you make camp somewhere if you have your own tent and I swear you have your own tent and I swear you have your own tent and I swear within one hour some child is going to within one hour some child is going to within one hour some child is going to be there with water and milk and you be there with water and milk and you be there with water and milk and you think where did you come from but the think where did you come from but the think where did you come from but the mother sends them over oh there's mother sends them over oh there's mother sends them over oh there's somebody over there in the forest they somebody over there in the forest they somebody over there in the forest they believe that they're obligated to take believe that they're obligated to take believe that they're obligated to take care of one another anybody in your area care of one another anybody in your area care of one another anybody in your area you take care of them and things like you take care of them and things like you take care of them and things like that individuals do give me hope that individuals do give me hope that individuals do give me hope people one by one or a few at a time, people one by one or a few at a time, people one by one or a few at a time, even though I'm lost in the modern even though I'm lost in the modern even though I'm lost in the modern world.

world. world. >> Uh, well, I'm I'm glad you find your >> Uh, well, I'm I'm glad you find your >> Uh, well, I'm I'm glad you find your way. You mentioned way. You mentioned way. You mentioned that your wife is no longer with us. that your wife is no longer with us. that your wife is no longer with us. What's a favorite memory you have with What's a favorite memory you have with What's a favorite memory you have with her? her? her? Well, I could say a favorite picture is Well, I could say a favorite picture is Well, I could say a favorite picture is a lake we used to go to called um Ugur a lake we used to go to called um Ugur a lake we used to go to called um Ugur in the middle and somebody a very nice in the middle and somebody a very nice in the middle and somebody a very nice friend uh took a picture of us towards friend uh took a picture of us towards friend uh took a picture of us towards the end. We're just sitting there the end. We're just sitting there the end. We're just sitting there watching the sunset over the lake that watching the sunset over the lake that watching the sunset over the lake that we've been to many many times in life. we've been to many many times in life. we've been to many many times in life. And you know she's holding she we're And you know she's holding she we're And you know she's holding she we're holding hands. She's in the chair holding hands. She's in the chair holding hands. She's in the chair paralyzed and we're just sitting there paralyzed and we're just sitting there paralyzed and we're just sitting there staring off in the distance, you know, staring off in the distance, you know, staring off in the distance, you know, and that's one of my favorites. But with my wife, I was just blessed with a with my wife, I was just blessed with a good wife that good wife that good wife that was exciting. She was the most beautiful was exciting. She was the most beautiful was exciting. She was the most beautiful woman I had ever met in my whole life. woman I had ever met in my whole life. woman I had ever met in my whole life. She was smart. She would talk to people She was smart. She would talk to people She was smart. She would talk to people about anything. She talk about jazz or about anything. She talk about jazz or about anything. She talk about jazz or physics or art. I mean I my life is so physics or art. I mean I my life is so physics or art. I mean I my life is so small and narrow but my wife she she's small and narrow but my wife she she's small and narrow but my wife she she's the one who gave me a life. She the one who gave me a life. She the one who gave me a life. She the truth is a very odd people don't the truth is a very odd people don't the truth is a very odd people don't believe sometime I failed English in believe sometime I failed English in believe sometime I failed English in college I barely got in college nobody college I barely got in college nobody college I barely got in college nobody in my family I grown up with my in my family I grown up with my in my family I grown up with my grandparents mostly countryside and they grandparents mostly countryside and they grandparents mostly countryside and they had third grade education my father had had third grade education my father had had third grade education my father had seventh grade I went to live with him uh

seventh grade I went to live with him uh seventh grade I went to live with him uh after the grandparents died and and my after the grandparents died and and my after the grandparents died and and my mother there was no big education there mother there was no big education there mother there was no big education there in the family but I somehow got to in the family but I somehow got to in the family but I somehow got to college my father told me to go he college my father told me to go he college my father told me to go he didn't want me to go to the war in didn't want me to go to the war in didn't want me to go to the war in Vietnam so he volunteered appeared to go Vietnam so he volunteered appeared to go Vietnam so he volunteered appeared to go because there was the the rule that they because there was the the rule that they because there was the the rule that they they couldn't send two people from one they couldn't send two people from one they couldn't send two people from one family against their will. That was family against their will. That was family against their will. That was mainly designed to protect brothers, but mainly designed to protect brothers, but mainly designed to protect brothers, but he could go as the father and then I he could go as the father and then I he could go as the father and then I could go to college, you know. So, I got could go to college, you know. So, I got could go to college, you know. So, I got to college and I can't say, "Oh, I was to college and I can't say, "Oh, I was to college and I can't say, "Oh, I was drinking and having a party and not drinking and having a party and not drinking and having a party and not serious." No, I was trying like hell to serious." No, I was trying like hell to serious." No, I was trying like hell to pass that course. I failed English. I pass that course. I failed English. I pass that course. I failed English. I failed it. And this was just a huge failed it. And this was just a huge failed it. And this was just a huge shame to me. In fact, after one year, I shame to me. In fact, after one year, I shame to me. In fact, after one year, I was put on probation to be kicked out of was put on probation to be kicked out of was put on probation to be kicked out of the school. My grades were so low the school. My grades were so low the school. My grades were so low overall, you know, and then so it took overall, you know, and then so it took overall, you know, and then so it took me a long time to confess this to my me a long time to confess this to my me a long time to confess this to my wife after we met, you know, I met her. wife after we met, you know, I met her. wife after we met, you know, I met her. I briefly had known her in high school, I briefly had known her in high school, I briefly had known her in high school, but just not well or anything. But but just not well or anything. But but just not well or anything. But anyway, we met later and and I told her anyway, we met later and and I told her anyway, we met later and and I told her and she just looked at me and she said, and she just looked at me and she said, and she just looked at me and she said, "What does a professor know? It's just a "What does a professor know? It's just a "What does a professor know? It's just a professor. You could write anything you professor. You could write anything you professor. You could write anything you want." Yeah. And she had the power to want." Yeah. And she had the power to want." Yeah. And she had the power to make me believe everything she said. I make me believe everything she said. I make me believe everything she said. I don't care what she said, I would don't care what she said, I would don't care what she said, I would believe it. And I would say, "Yeah, believe it. And I would say, "Yeah, believe it. And I would say, "Yeah, that's right. That's just a professor."

that's right. That's just a professor." that's right. That's just a professor." Yeah. What? You know, and Yeah. What? You know, and Yeah. What? You know, and she inspired me, but she also she she inspired me, but she also she she inspired me, but she also she supported me all the way through supported me all the way through supported me all the way through graduate school. She was taking some graduate school. She was taking some graduate school. She was taking some courses of her own and she was doing courses of her own and she was doing courses of her own and she was doing graduate work, but but she inspired me. graduate work, but but she inspired me. graduate work, but but she inspired me. But she told me, But she told me, But she told me, I said, "I want to write for more people I said, "I want to write for more people I said, "I want to write for more people than just for other scholars. I've done than just for other scholars. I've done than just for other scholars. I've done this dissertation, a PhD, and it's just this dissertation, a PhD, and it's just this dissertation, a PhD, and it's just dry as that's a goi desert, you know, dry as that's a goi desert, you know, dry as that's a goi desert, you know, and and I didn't know what to do. And and and I didn't know what to do. And and and I didn't know what to do. And she said, "Just tell the story to me, she said, "Just tell the story to me, she said, "Just tell the story to me, but I can't see you while you tell it. but I can't see you while you tell it. but I can't see you while you tell it. You're on the radio and I'm listening in You're on the radio and I'm listening in You're on the radio and I'm listening in my car driving somewhere. Just tell the my car driving somewhere. Just tell the my car driving somewhere. Just tell the story to me." And to this day, almost story to me." And to this day, almost story to me." And to this day, almost every word I write has always just tell every word I write has always just tell every word I write has always just tell the story to her the way that she would the story to her the way that she would the story to her the way that she would like it. And I always read the books to like it. And I always read the books to like it. And I always read the books to her her her even she couldn't comprehend too much, even she couldn't comprehend too much, even she couldn't comprehend too much, you know, but she just loved hearing the you know, but she just loved hearing the you know, but she just loved hearing the book.

book. book. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Because it was mine. And you know, in >> Because it was mine. And you know, in >> Because it was mine. And you know, in the last years of our life, I gave up the last years of our life, I gave up the last years of our life, I gave up the teaching and we we went back to our the teaching and we we went back to our the teaching and we we went back to our original home in South Carolina. And I original home in South Carolina. And I original home in South Carolina. And I said, "Okay, we're just going to live said, "Okay, we're just going to live said, "Okay, we're just going to live here and watch the ocean and do things here and watch the ocean and do things here and watch the ocean and do things like that and just be worthless like that and just be worthless like that and just be worthless teenagers." teenagers." teenagers." And my wife used to have episodes of And my wife used to have episodes of And my wife used to have episodes of clarity. clarity. clarity. I I have no idea what what cost. I mean, I I have no idea what what cost. I mean, I I have no idea what what cost. I mean, it might be two hours, it might be seven it might be two hours, it might be seven it might be two hours, it might be seven or eight hours. And what And we would or eight hours. And what And we would or eight hours. And what And we would talk a lot talk a lot talk a lot And so one time she said to me, she And so one time she said to me, she And so one time she said to me, she said, "This disease is going to take my life, "This disease is going to take my life, but it's taking your life." She said, but it's taking your life." She said, but it's taking your life." She said, "You gave up teaching and you gave up "You gave up teaching and you gave up "You gave up teaching and you gave up writing." And she said, "How do you writing." And she said, "How do you writing." And she said, "How do you expect me to die in peace if I know that expect me to die in peace if I know that expect me to die in peace if I know that you gave up everything to this disease?" you gave up everything to this disease?" you gave up everything to this disease?" She said, "You should write."

She said, "You should write." She said, "You should write." And so every single day we sat together And so every single day we sat together And so every single day we sat together by the water o I mean by the window. I by the water o I mean by the window. I by the water o I mean by the window. I moved it into the dining room moved it into the dining room moved it into the dining room overlooking the water and we sat there overlooking the water and we sat there overlooking the water and we sat there at the desk and she sat in her at the desk and she sat in her at the desk and she sat in her wheelchair next to me and sometimes we wheelchair next to me and sometimes we wheelchair next to me and sometimes we would play a little soft music in the would play a little soft music in the would play a little soft music in the background a little bit and for the most background a little bit and for the most background a little bit and for the most part she couldn't talk but she liked to part she couldn't talk but she liked to part she couldn't talk but she liked to just sit there beside me working and she just sit there beside me working and she just sit there beside me working and she knew that she was inspiration. knew that she was inspiration. knew that she was inspiration. She knew. She was the battery that kept She knew. She was the battery that kept She knew. She was the battery that kept me going. You know, I How on earth me going. You know, I How on earth me going. You know, I How on earth I ever had a wife like that, I don't I ever had a wife like that, I don't I ever had a wife like that, I don't know. know. know. >> That's beautiful, Jack. That's really >> That's beautiful, Jack. That's really >> That's beautiful, Jack. That's really beautiful. beautiful. beautiful. >> You know, I I just hit the jackpot with >> You know, I I just hit the jackpot with >> You know, I I just hit the jackpot with her. And I see so many people that get her. And I see so many people that get her. And I see so many people that get by and they even like each other or by and they even like each other or by and they even like each other or they're friends or something. But in my they're friends or something. But in my they're friends or something. But in my life, there was one person. I love my life, there was one person. I love my life, there was one person. I love my children. I still do. I love my children. I still do. I love my children. I still do. I love my grandchildren. I don't understand them.

grandchildren. I don't understand them. grandchildren. I don't understand them. But But But >> yeah, >> yeah, >> yeah, >> but there's one person in my life and >> but there's one person in my life and >> but there's one person in my life and that was my wife for 44 years that was my wife for 44 years that was my wife for 44 years and her funeral was on our anniversary. and her funeral was on our anniversary. and her funeral was on our anniversary. I That's just the way life works out, I That's just the way life works out, I That's just the way life works out, you know. But I was very lucky. Very you know. But I was very lucky. Very you know. But I was very lucky. Very lucky. lucky. lucky. If uh the two of you lived and met a few If uh the two of you lived and met a few If uh the two of you lived and met a few centuries ago, I might be reading a centuries ago, I might be reading a centuries ago, I might be reading a history book about you conquering. history book about you conquering. history book about you conquering. >> No, no, no. >> No, no, no. >> No, no, no. >> And if she said, you know, you should uh >> And if she said, you know, you should uh >> And if she said, you know, you should uh you should do this. you should do this. you should do this. Maybe you would. Maybe you would. Maybe you would. >> If she said it, I probably would have >> If she said it, I probably would have >> If she said it, I probably would have believed it. But believed it. But believed it. But >> Exactly. Exactly. >> Exactly. Exactly. >> Exactly. Exactly. >> She was too busy enjoying the world, you >> She was too busy enjoying the world, you >> She was too busy enjoying the world, you know. And you know in her final know. And you know in her final know. And you know in her final I I could not ask her questions and I I I could not ask her questions and I I I could not ask her questions and I would not say oh you remember that. No I would not say oh you remember that. No I would not say oh you remember that. No I never would say that cuz I knew she never would say that cuz I knew she never would say that cuz I knew she couldn't remember. But at when she was couldn't remember. But at when she was couldn't remember. But at when she was being restless or something in the night being restless or something in the night being restless or something in the night or I used to reite scenes from our life or I used to reite scenes from our life or I used to reite scenes from our life and just give the scene without saying and just give the scene without saying and just give the scene without saying do you remember? But the last night, I do you remember? But the last night, I do you remember? But the last night, I certainly didn't know that she was certainly didn't know that she was certainly didn't know that she was going, but it was a rough night. And going, but it was a rough night. And going, but it was a rough night. And we went back to we went back to we went back to the first night that we had in Moscow.

the first night that we had in Moscow. the first night that we had in Moscow. We came in December in the winter and We came in December in the winter and We came in December in the winter and the snow was so beautiful and white and the snow was so beautiful and white and the snow was so beautiful and white and the yellow lights shining on it. the yellow lights shining on it. the yellow lights shining on it. And then the most beautiful night, we And then the most beautiful night, we And then the most beautiful night, we went to the Baloy went to the Baloy went to the Baloy and she had this elegant blue wool coat and she had this elegant blue wool coat and she had this elegant blue wool coat from her grandmother from the 1920s with from her grandmother from the 1920s with from her grandmother from the 1920s with a huge It's so ironic. It was a a blue a huge It's so ironic. It was a a blue a huge It's so ironic. It was a a blue wolf, but it's gray blue like the Mongol wolf, but it's gray blue like the Mongol wolf, but it's gray blue like the Mongol hands gray blue collar. This huge hands gray blue collar. This huge hands gray blue collar. This huge collar. She just looked like a movie collar. She just looked like a movie collar. She just looked like a movie star from the 20s or something. And we star from the 20s or something. And we star from the 20s or something. And we went to see Maya Placets Skaya. went to see Maya Placets Skaya. went to see Maya Placets Skaya. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And it was one of the most beautiful >> And it was one of the most beautiful >> And it was one of the most beautiful nights. But nights. But nights. But her last night, her last night, her last night, I told her that story again, you know, I told her that story again, you know, I told her that story again, you know, of all the details. I'd gone through it of all the details. I'd gone through it of all the details. I'd gone through it many times, but her coat from her many times, but her coat from her many times, but her coat from her grandmother whom she loved very much and grandmother whom she loved very much and grandmother whom she loved very much and the snow and the yellow lights. And we the snow and the yellow lights. And we the snow and the yellow lights. And we arrived at night because of course the arrived at night because of course the arrived at night because of course the flight was late. And um uh then the next flight was late. And um uh then the next flight was late. And um uh then the next night going to the Bolshoy and all those night going to the Bolshoy and all those night going to the Bolshoy and all those beautiful things from Russia.

So that was it. So that was it. >> She was an inspiration. I have many many >> She was an inspiration. I have many many >> She was an inspiration. I have many many nights or many days of great memories. nights or many days of great memories. nights or many days of great memories. You know, You know, You know, >> you're going to make me cry, Jack. >> you're going to make me cry, Jack. >> you're going to make me cry, Jack. >> Oh, no. >> Oh, no. >> Oh, no. >> That was beautiful. You're a beautiful >> That was beautiful. You're a beautiful >> That was beautiful. You're a beautiful human being. Um it's uh it's really an human being. Um it's uh it's really an human being. Um it's uh it's really an honor to talk to you. This was such a honor to talk to you. This was such a honor to talk to you. This was such a fascinating journey through human fascinating journey through human fascinating journey through human history about one of the most impactful history about one of the most impactful history about one of the most impactful humans in human history. humans in human history. humans in human history. >> Well, I I thank you very much and the >> Well, I I thank you very much and the >> Well, I I thank you very much and the amount of research when I realized how amount of research when I realized how amount of research when I realized how much research you had done, I felt like much research you had done, I felt like much research you had done, I felt like you're going to know things I don't know you're going to know things I don't know you're going to know things I don't know and you're going to trick me and pull and you're going to trick me and pull and you're going to trick me and pull something out and I'm going to be shamed something out and I'm going to be shamed something out and I'm going to be shamed in front of the whole world. in front of the whole world. in front of the whole world. >> There's only one piece of research left >> There's only one piece of research left >> There's only one piece of research left is me going to Mongolia and and and is me going to Mongolia and and and is me going to Mongolia and and and riding there on the step. That would be riding there on the step. That would be riding there on the step. That would be uh that would be incredible. So, uh that would be incredible. So, uh that would be incredible. So, >> come come. >> come come. >> come come. >> I will. Thank you so much for talking >> I will. Thank you so much for talking >> I will. Thank you so much for talking today, Jack. today, Jack. today, Jack. >> Thank you. >> Thank you. >> Thank you. >> Thanks for listening to this >> Thanks for listening to this >> Thanks for listening to this conversation with Jack Weatherford. To conversation with Jack Weatherford. To conversation with Jack Weatherford. To support this podcast, please check out support this podcast, please check out support this podcast, please check out our sponsors in the description and our sponsors in the description and our sponsors in the description and consider subscribing to this channel. consider subscribing to this channel. consider subscribing to this channel. And now, let me answer some questions And now, let me answer some questions And now, let me answer some questions and try to articulate some things I've and try to articulate some things I've and try to articulate some things I've been thinking about. If you would like been thinking about. If you would like been thinking about. If you would like to submit questions, including in audio to submit questions, including in audio to submit questions, including in audio and video form, go to and video form, go to and video form, go to lexfreedman.com/amma.

lexfreedman.com/amma. lexfreedman.com/amma. Or if you want to contact me for other Or if you want to contact me for other Or if you want to contact me for other reasons, go to lexfreedman.com/cont. reasons, go to lexfreedman.com/cont. reasons, go to lexfreedman.com/cont. And now, allow me to make a few comments And now, allow me to make a few comments And now, allow me to make a few comments on the ever evolving moral landscape of on the ever evolving moral landscape of on the ever evolving moral landscape of human civilization throughout our human civilization throughout our human civilization throughout our 10,000year history. I was listening to 10,000year history. I was listening to 10,000year history. I was listening to Dan Carlin's excellent eye-opening 5 and Dan Carlin's excellent eye-opening 5 and Dan Carlin's excellent eye-opening 5 and a half hour episode of Hardcore History a half hour episode of Hardcore History a half hour episode of Hardcore History titled Human Resources. It covered the titled Human Resources. It covered the titled Human Resources. It covered the topic of slavery, the Atlantic slave topic of slavery, the Atlantic slave topic of slavery, the Atlantic slave trade to be exact. One of the lessons I trade to be exact. One of the lessons I trade to be exact. One of the lessons I took from this episode is that the long took from this episode is that the long took from this episode is that the long arc of history is full of atrocities as arc of history is full of atrocities as arc of history is full of atrocities as we modern-day humans understand them we modern-day humans understand them we modern-day humans understand them with the wisdom of time and moral with the wisdom of time and moral with the wisdom of time and moral progress. But during each period of progress. But during each period of progress. But during each period of history, as Dan documents, it was history, as Dan documents, it was history, as Dan documents, it was difficult for the majority of people to difficult for the majority of people to difficult for the majority of people to see just where the line between good and see just where the line between good and see just where the line between good and evil is. We humans, after all, forever evil is. We humans, after all, forever evil is. We humans, after all, forever like to weave a story in which we are like to weave a story in which we are like to weave a story in which we are the good guys.

the good guys. the good guys. Listening to Dan discuss and later Listening to Dan discuss and later Listening to Dan discuss and later myself reading firsthand accounts of myself reading firsthand accounts of myself reading firsthand accounts of slaves, of torture, of rape, of slaves, of torture, of rape, of slaves, of torture, of rape, of separation of families is separation of families is separation of families is incomprehensibly heartbreaking. By the incomprehensibly heartbreaking. By the incomprehensibly heartbreaking. By the way, on this topic, firsthand accounts way, on this topic, firsthand accounts way, on this topic, firsthand accounts of slavery can be read in slave of slavery can be read in slave of slavery can be read in slave narratives, a folk history of slavery in narratives, a folk history of slavery in narratives, a folk history of slavery in the United States from interviews with the United States from interviews with the United States from interviews with former slaves. I can recommend the book former slaves. I can recommend the book former slaves. I can recommend the book that I've been reading, which is Voices that I've been reading, which is Voices that I've been reading, which is Voices from Slavery, 100 Authentic Slave from Slavery, 100 Authentic Slave from Slavery, 100 Authentic Slave Narratives. It all seems deeply and Narratives. It all seems deeply and Narratives. It all seems deeply and obviously wrong by today's standards, obviously wrong by today's standards, obviously wrong by today's standards, but slavery was seen as normal through but slavery was seen as normal through but slavery was seen as normal through most of human history. most of human history. most of human history. Thomas Jefferson, the man who wrote, Thomas Jefferson, the man who wrote, Thomas Jefferson, the man who wrote, "All men are created equal," which I "All men are created equal," which I "All men are created equal," which I think is one of the most powerful lines think is one of the most powerful lines think is one of the most powerful lines in all of human history. He himself was in all of human history. He himself was in all of human history. He himself was a slave owner, making him a fascinating a slave owner, making him a fascinating a slave owner, making him a fascinating case study of contradictions. case study of contradictions. case study of contradictions. In fact, there's evidence that Thomas In fact, there's evidence that Thomas In fact, there's evidence that Thomas Jefferson drew from Jenis Khan's ideas Jefferson drew from Jenis Khan's ideas Jefferson drew from Jenis Khan's ideas about the importance of religious about the importance of religious about the importance of religious freedom, freedom, freedom, pulling, as he did, foundational ideas pulling, as he did, foundational ideas pulling, as he did, foundational ideas of human freedom from the jaws of deep of human freedom from the jaws of deep of human freedom from the jaws of deep history.

history. history. And Dan in his episode documents these And Dan in his episode documents these And Dan in his episode documents these contradictions and complexities quite contradictions and complexities quite contradictions and complexities quite well. The full range of human psychology well. The full range of human psychology well. The full range of human psychology involved, including how violations of involved, including how violations of involved, including how violations of basic human rights breed generational basic human rights breed generational basic human rights breed generational hatred. This, I think, is an important hatred. This, I think, is an important hatred. This, I think, is an important lesson to understand. The consequences lesson to understand. The consequences lesson to understand. The consequences of our moral failings can reverberate of our moral failings can reverberate of our moral failings can reverberate through decades, even centuries. And through decades, even centuries. And through decades, even centuries. And that is perhaps one of the values of that is perhaps one of the values of that is perhaps one of the values of studying history. It is laden with studying history. It is laden with studying history. It is laden with atrocities, but it also contains people atrocities, but it also contains people atrocities, but it also contains people who, while flawed, dare to rise in some who, while flawed, dare to rise in some who, while flawed, dare to rise in some way above the moral decrepitude of the way above the moral decrepitude of the way above the moral decrepitude of the day to try to build a foundation of a day to try to build a foundation of a day to try to build a foundation of a slightly better future world. As MLK Jr. slightly better future world. As MLK Jr. slightly better future world. As MLK Jr. put it, the ark of moral universe is put it, the ark of moral universe is put it, the ark of moral universe is long, but it bends towards justice. long, but it bends towards justice. long, but it bends towards justice. And now, please allow me to say a few And now, please allow me to say a few And now, please allow me to say a few words about Gaza, Israel, and Palestine. words about Gaza, Israel, and Palestine. words about Gaza, Israel, and Palestine. I'm not sure I'm eloquent enough or know I'm not sure I'm eloquent enough or know I'm not sure I'm eloquent enough or know quite the right words to express what quite the right words to express what quite the right words to express what I'm feeling, but let me try.

I'm feeling, but let me try. I'm feeling, but let me try. I think what is happening in Gaza is an I think what is happening in Gaza is an I think what is happening in Gaza is an atrocity. atrocity. atrocity. And I think that the Israeli government And I think that the Israeli government And I think that the Israeli government is directly responsible for it. And to is directly responsible for it. And to is directly responsible for it. And to the degree the US government is the degree the US government is the degree the US government is assisting the Israeli government in assisting the Israeli government in assisting the Israeli government in this, which I believe it currently is, this, which I believe it currently is, this, which I believe it currently is, it needs to stop immediately. it needs to stop immediately. it needs to stop immediately. for me as an American makes me sick to for me as an American makes me sick to for me as an American makes me sick to know that my government has any role in know that my government has any role in know that my government has any role in this atrocity. this atrocity. this atrocity. This needs to stop. This needs to stop. This needs to stop. Yes, there's geopolitical and military Yes, there's geopolitical and military Yes, there's geopolitical and military complexity, nuance, and historical complexity, nuance, and historical complexity, nuance, and historical context that I'm told by some so-called context that I'm told by some so-called context that I'm told by some so-called experts that one must understand. experts that one must understand. experts that one must understand. And perhaps they are smarter than me. And perhaps they are smarter than me. And perhaps they are smarter than me. But like mentioned before, unlike the But like mentioned before, unlike the But like mentioned before, unlike the moral complexity of deep history that moral complexity of deep history that moral complexity of deep history that I've often spoken about, from the Roman I've often spoken about, from the Roman I've often spoken about, from the Roman Empire to the Atlantic slave trade, this Empire to the Atlantic slave trade, this Empire to the Atlantic slave trade, this is the 21st century. This is today. In is the 21st century. This is today. In is the 21st century. This is today. In this the 21st century, I see things this the 21st century, I see things this the 21st century, I see things quite simply and clearly.

quite simply and clearly. quite simply and clearly. To me, the death of a child is a To me, the death of a child is a To me, the death of a child is a tragedy. tragedy. tragedy. It doesn't matter what their skin color It doesn't matter what their skin color It doesn't matter what their skin color is, what their religion is, or what plot is, what their religion is, or what plot is, what their religion is, or what plot of land they call home. of land they call home. of land they call home. In my view, they are all equal. In my view, they are all equal. In my view, they are all equal. And the death of each child is a And the death of each child is a And the death of each child is a tragedy. tragedy. tragedy. Hamas did a definitively evil act on Hamas did a definitively evil act on Hamas did a definitively evil act on October 7th, brutally murdering over October 7th, brutally murdering over October 7th, brutally murdering over 1,000 civilians. 1,000 civilians. 1,000 civilians. But now, the acts of war conducted by But now, the acts of war conducted by But now, the acts of war conducted by the Israeli government have led to the the Israeli government have led to the the Israeli government have led to the death of over 60,000 people in Gaza, death of over 60,000 people in Gaza, death of over 60,000 people in Gaza, likely over 80,000 people, of which at likely over 80,000 people, of which at likely over 80,000 people, of which at least 17,000 are children. least 17,000 are children. least 17,000 are children. 17,000. 17,000. 17,000. I'm not smart enough to know the path to I'm not smart enough to know the path to I'm not smart enough to know the path to peace and flourishing of all the peoples peace and flourishing of all the peoples peace and flourishing of all the peoples in the region. But I do know that what in the region. But I do know that what in the region. But I do know that what has been happening in Gaza cannot be the has been happening in Gaza cannot be the has been happening in Gaza cannot be the way.

way. way. Suffering at this kind of scale breeds Suffering at this kind of scale breeds Suffering at this kind of scale breeds generational hate that leads to more generational hate that leads to more generational hate that leads to more evil in the world, not less, to more evil in the world, not less, to more evil in the world, not less, to more destruction, destruction, destruction, to more suffering. to more suffering. to more suffering. This has to stop. This has to stop. This has to stop. Two years ago, I spoke with many Two years ago, I spoke with many Two years ago, I spoke with many Palestinians in the West Bank on camera Palestinians in the West Bank on camera Palestinians in the West Bank on camera and off. There's a video of it up if you and off. There's a video of it up if you and off. There's a video of it up if you want to hear their voices for want to hear their voices for want to hear their voices for yourselves. yourselves. yourselves. It was a deeply moving experience for me It was a deeply moving experience for me It was a deeply moving experience for me and I'm grateful for it. In the future, and I'm grateful for it. In the future, and I'm grateful for it. In the future, I hope to find a way to talk to people I hope to find a way to talk to people I hope to find a way to talk to people in Gaza. in Gaza. in Gaza. I still think it's valuable to talk to I still think it's valuable to talk to I still think it's valuable to talk to leaders, historians, soldiers, activists leaders, historians, soldiers, activists leaders, historians, soldiers, activists from all perspectives, but the most from all perspectives, but the most from all perspectives, but the most powerful and moving conversations for me powerful and moving conversations for me powerful and moving conversations for me on mic and off have always been with on mic and off have always been with on mic and off have always been with everyday people. This always felt like everyday people. This always felt like everyday people. This always felt like where the truth is, the deeper truth of where the truth is, the deeper truth of where the truth is, the deeper truth of life, of pain, fear, of hope.

life, of pain, fear, of hope. life, of pain, fear, of hope. And I still have hope. I believe we And I still have hope. I believe we And I still have hope. I believe we humans are good at the core. and I know humans are good at the core. and I know humans are good at the core. and I know we'll find our way. Thank you for we'll find our way. Thank you for we'll find our way. Thank you for listening. I love you all.